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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to Group Chat. I am Justinver. And joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle. Man. Gentlemen, we're recording this Monday morning, hours away from yet another Yukon national title game performance. I'm wearing the hat much like Tiger wearing the red polos on game day.
- [00:33]
B
Is that the comp you want right now?
- [00:34]
C
Timely reference?
- [00:35]
A
Yeah, well, it's the old maybe Ron Burgundy. Not Ron Burgundy. Ron Swanson wearing the red polo after his successes. Let's go with that. But I'm wearing a different hat, and I got to say, I'm feeling a little nervous that I threw off the juju here.
- [00:51]
B
Okay, how deep is your array of Yukon hats?
- [00:55]
A
2. It's literally these two hats.
- [00:57]
C
I've only ever seen the two of them the last two episodes, so. Or the. Well, recently.
- [01:02]
A
But I usually wear the national 1999 title hat after they win, because that's just how it works. I'm wearing a different hat, and now I'm thinking to myself, did I choose style over substance? And all of a sudden, I'm going to throw everything off. They're going to lose because of me, and not because, you know, Michigan is huge and imposing and probably the better team.
- [01:20]
B
Yeah, I'm Be honest. You fucked up.
- [01:22]
A
You.
- [01:22]
B
You really did this. Everyone can hold Justin Barrier, personal, personally to blame when things don't go well for UConn, but let's leave the door open for the universe shining its light upon you. I. I personally would love this for you, Justin, as much as we hate you coming on this podcast to gloat, I just want good things to happen for our guy, jv. I want all of his. Every plant in his garden to thrive. And I guess I want Yukon to win.
- [01:46]
C
I'm. I'm over here just clawing to the past. Look at this. A 96 Final Four shirt. So I don't want anything good to happen to Justin. I. So, yeah, we'll see.
- [01:55]
A
Well, you were there. So, like, what was it like being in the presence of greatness?
- [02:00]
C
Oh, I wasn't actually in, like, physical presence because I didn't get a seat. So I don't know what I did wrong on that front. So I had a really awful moment where I was, like, walking back to my car because I didn't. I didn't. I had to trudge in the rain. For people who don't know, the. The weather was really, really bad. So I had this moment where there was horizontal rain pelting me in the face that I was so hard that I wondered if it was hailing and I had this awful juxtaposition of my son has become obsessed with Accidentally in Love, that counting pro song, and it's been stuck in my head. So I was trudging through the rain, absolutely soaking wet. I had to take my glasses off while Accidentally in Love was stuck in my head and I was like, I'm in hell right now. UConn might win. This is awful.
- [02:42]
A
Rob, how was your weekend? Did any any Hail to the Face?
- [02:45]
B
You know better than that, but somehow the same amount of Counting Crows. So I don't know what that says about me, but I was fine with it.
- [02:50]
A
Okay, that's Good.
- [02:52]
B
The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. Don't forget, with FanDuel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21+ in select states. 18+ for DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. A gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.
- [03:27]
D
This episode is brought to you by TaxAct Taxes. Trust me, they sound far more complex than they actually are. And it's all thanks to TaxAct. They make it easy to do taxes online, offering step by step guidance so you can finish your taxes ahead of the April 15 deadline and get your maximum refund guaranteed. If you get stuck, just add expert assist. Get unlimited help from a credentialed US based tax expert. Visit taxact.com to learn more.
- [03:56]
A
All right, but we are here to talk about awards. This is our typical end of season pod. We're going to do our team awards this pod do the individual awards next time. So we're going to do all NBA, all defense and all rookie teams in this show. I'll be honest, I was excited going into this exercise in part because of over the weekend we were privileged to see one of the best games of the year happen just before the buzzer on the regular season goes off. There've been all this talk about tanking, honestly getting worse than we even thought it already had been. There was a Hollander piece today. It was like tanking's worse than you think. I was like, so there's like a different degree of hell that I wasn't aware of. But there was also that stat from I think Tim Reynolds of the AP where it's like nine games of like a margin of victory of 24 or more had only happened twice. 80 years. And it happened just both times. Last week, I think it was Sunday and then Friday, so that's cool. But then we had the Yic Wemby match. I was like, let's go, this is great. NBA's back. The playoffs are here to save us. And then I did this all NBA exercise and I'm like, I, I, this is, this is the league. Because the 65 game rule just like completely puts a damper on all this. I feel like half of these guys, Rob, probably wouldn't make it. If I had the option to go with guys even in the 60 game
- [05:10]
B
range, a good chunk of them would not. Let's all just be honest about it, but let's flip this on its head. You know, we can be happy for these guys who are suddenly in the conversation. We're going to get to shine a light on people who we, yes, talk about, but don't talk about as often as Ant or Kate or Luca or whoever. And so like, somebody's going to win out of this. I agree that zooming out in the grand scheme of NBA history, seeing some of the guys who are going to make all NBA third team might be a little weird, but we just live at a weird time. And frankly, we live at a weird time because even in just trying to endeavor to figure out who should make all NBA, it turns us as voters and prospective voters into like fucking actuaries. Crunching the numbers on how many minutes were played and how many qualifying games. I'm just, I'm sick of that part of it. I don't want to complain too much about the 65 game stuff that we've already beaten to absolute death, but it just makes the actual all NBA decisions particularly weird.
- [06:03]
C
How much time did we spend even just like lightly discussing who was in, who was out out. That in, in and of itself was a demonstration of how asinine this has gotten, that we're just like you said, like going in. I was joking. Like just, just the little, little minute ways that we were trying to justify this or that based on guys who, you know, wouldn't be there normally. Good for you though, Rob, being positive, like, yeah, we can be happy for them. It's like that doesn't dilute my annoyance with it at all. I'm not trying to be in a bad mood today, but I don't know. I'm really annoyed with this. They got to fix it.
- [06:33]
B
Well, while we're talking annoyances and also our general confusion, do we want to just talk about the elephant in the room, which is whether or not Luka Doncic is going to be eligible for any of this and the fact that we won't even know if he's eligible for it until the regular season is over and maybe then some.
- [06:47]
A
Yeah, so what? He's filing a grievance that because he had an end of season injury, he gets special exceptions. So if you have an end of season, like if you get injured late in the season right before it cuts off, that somehow provides you some sort of amnesty from this rule, which is odd unto itself.
- [07:03]
B
I actually think they're not filing under that provision because I think he doesn't technically qualify for the season ending injury part.
- [07:10]
A
Because that's a thing, right?
- [07:12]
B
That is a thing. Yeah. But. But you have to be ruled out for the season by a certain date, and there's other stipulations put upon you. I believe what they're doing is they're filing for extraordinary circumstances based on the fact that he missed two games in December to attend the birth of his child. And so he and his agent, Bill Duffy, are trying to appeal. Like these should not count against the missed games or, you know, the lack of qualifying games. In Luca's case, that would disqualify him from MVP ballots and all NBA and all this other stuff. It's a mess. Like it. It's a total mess. And I don't know where the appeals for extraordinary circumstances would end because frankly, a lot of players can. You know, they've all. Everyone's missed a game or two for personal reasons here and there. And if you want to disclose what those are to get back on an awards ballot, like power to you. I just don't know why we have to do this in the first place. And now that we're here, I frankly have no idea what to expect as far as the resolution of this arbitration goes.
- [08:07]
C
A lot of people would argue that adding another child to your life is an injury of sorts. It's an injury to your capability to do a lot of things. I just think I would say I have anxiety or I'd say something that is sort of like, you can't go near it. Like, you just feel like, oh, I had really bad anxiety in that kind of a thing. It's. It's not that I'm not sensitive to mental health at all. I just think that's One of those. One of those things you can't really approach. But I think that it's funny because I think this is a setup for. If they deny it. A real. Like, you remember how they did the Lucas, the. The bad boy or whatever it was, that Jordan Brand commercial.
- [08:39]
B
Yeah.
- [08:39]
C
Where he was on trial there. If they deny this, they're teeing this up for an incredible, like, campaign. I'm excited to see what Jordan Brand can do with this.
- [08:48]
B
Can you imagine the fatherhood branding of. I'm such a good dad. I gave up the potential MVP to be there for. For my son. You know, it's. It's a great pitch.
- [08:57]
A
Oh. Especially with Luca these days.
- [08:59]
B
It's just he's fighting. He's fighting for his kids in many ways.
- [09:03]
A
Right.
- [09:03]
C
Yeah.
- [09:03]
A
It has also sent us down this path where, like, Shams is giving, like, oxygen to agents to cape for their clients. There's that Kate Cunningham, like, his agent was like, really? He should be on there as if, like, he was the voice of reason and not someone completely financially incent in order to get him across that line, to get him first team, all NBA. It's just the whole thing is silly. But the guys that we don't have available to us right now, as we know, which it Actually, there could be more because there are a lot of guys on the line. WEMBY, etc. 62 games they really need to play out in order to still be eligible. So this might even date as soon as tonight or tomorrow if these guys aren't able to suit up. But right now, Cade, Luca, Aunt Devin Booker, really tough one, which you guys told me right before this pod started, because I had him on my list and I have to take him off now, so that sucks. And then Giannis, Steph, all the usual guys you expect. Those are the guys kind of on the line. Did I miss anyone else?
- [10:00]
B
I think those are the big ones. I mean, LeBron and Bead Tatum. Maybe if he had played a full season. Though no one is kind of like penciling in Jason Tatum based on purely the quality of his play in a small sample. Uh, but yeah, I mean, that's an all NBA first team that you rattled off right off the top. And it's going to allow some opportunity on the back end. It's going to sound like jv Allow us some opportunity to lobby you for your Devin Booker spot. Can Kyle and I make our cases? And you know, you can. You can pick who. Who should win based on that.
- [10:29]
C
It's funny. We're talking about how like Wimby is walking the tightrope or walking the edge here where he's played this, if I'm not mistaken, if this is the right number, I have so many lists, I make sure the date is right. But he's right there with Jokic. Kawhi. Let's see, there's a few guys. Abdia Siakam right there at that 62 game mark. So we make a big deal of Wimby's availability. But there's, there's a bunch of dudes in that cluster who, you know, one misstep and, you know, your awards just go out the window.
- [10:55]
B
Crazy.
- [10:55]
A
All right, all right. With that 10 to 20 minute preamble about caveats that we have to include here out of the way, let's get to our first team. All NBA ballots. I think you guys all have these three guys. Shay Gilgiers, Alexander, Nikola Jokic, Victor Webman Yam.
- [11:10]
B
No question. Yeah, easy. And not just easy, but, like, have to be first team, right? There's. There's really no debate about it.
- [11:17]
A
Um, while we're on the subject, what'd you think about the. The title bout this, this past weekend, Wemby v. Jokic.
- [11:26]
B
I mean, I, I was as relieved as you were just to feel alive this late in the regular season. I think I've been. I've been a little less concerned about the tanking right now. Like, this is the part of the year where the tanking happens. But also, you never know when teams are going to kind of pull back in anticipation of the playoffs and not show their full hand. And I'm not even saying those teams did, but just even getting that quality of competition this late in the season, I mean, we will fucking take it. Every single time they were, they were going at it.
- [11:53]
C
I think if you were going to really go in and pick out any kind of nuance of like, what are they holding, what are they going to wait to show? It would have to be pretty granular in the weeds because they were going hard in that, in that game. That one was, you know, we were talking about. I was in like the college world on the. Over the weekend. And that was one that, as I was kind of monitoring the score, I was like, I was doing one of those walk and watch on your phone moves and then like, so, yeah, that was, that was an incredible game, man. I mean, something just quickly, I just thought, like, the physicality of like Castle and those guys against the Nuggets, that's a, that's an one advantage that jumped out to me that I thought that they could really lean into because they didn't really seem to have an answer for him. And it makes me wonder if they're going to allocate some of the fox shots that didn't go in, maybe dump even more of those. Stefan Castle. I don't know what you guys thought about it.
- [12:40]
A
Yeah, my two big takeaways from that game were just the physicality that the Nuggets have overall. But specifically, Jokic can inflict upon Wemby, despite the fact that Wemby is just so long, is kind of maybe a queen on the chessboard sort of move in the Western Conference finals that we all expected to, because so much came up this regular season in order to deter us from that. If the Nuggets are reasonably healthy, I still feel pretty good about them in a playoff series. That's one and two. Just. That shot probably will go on the. The Jokic hall of Fame reel. Like, I mean, it didn't have the. The stakes of Steph getting it off in the Olympics, but just the launch angle. Like, I was just trying to find every angle of that video I could find. And, like, this is an idea for any enterprising young lad out there still writing articles, but, like, if you could show me, like, what angle he is at in order to make that shot, or just the angles that he can get off in general, because it's almost like he's in a reclining chair to get that up and over Wemby, it's just. It's. It's like it defies physics.
- [13:39]
B
I mean, he often does that. That's kind of the whole Jokic experience, isn't it? I know we marvel about what Wemby can do to change, like, the natural geometry of the game, but Jokic is just a fucking trebuchet that can be leaned and launched at basically any way that he needs to to fit the moment. So I'm with you that I. I, too, would like these alternative views. Justin, if you want to forward those along, I'm. I'm open to them. But, I mean, he's just. He's incredible in. In terms of what he can get off. And he's gotten a little lost in the MVP conversation just because the other candidates have been so good. But what Jokic has been able to do, including in some of these highest leverage matchups. Fucking bonkers. Just for any other player, I was
- [14:18]
C
thinking about it, like, the Sombor satellite. I was trying to think of one. What. What would be the. Because it Wasn't the future. It was so high. Second spectrum should have the. The arc angle on that. Not that we have it anymore. Somebody out there has it. They could send it to us. We could find out what it was.
- [14:32]
A
Satellite singing DMV in my head.
- [14:36]
C
Oh, yeah, that is dmb.
- [14:38]
B
Yeah.
- [14:42]
C
The dmv.
- [14:42]
D
Were you all.
- [14:43]
C
Did you know somebody with like, the DMV icon, the. The sticker on the back of the car?
- [14:48]
B
I don't know what sticker you're talking about. What's the shape?
- [14:51]
C
I forget which album it was. It was. It was like 2005 or something. It was that really slender person.
- [14:56]
B
But anyway, I'm looking at it. Right.
- [14:58]
C
Everybody knew somebody that had that stick sticker. It wasn't me. Yeah. When a dmb.
- [15:03]
B
Yeah.
- [15:03]
C
Anyway, I'm. I'm not trying to derail. Let's go.
- [15:06]
A
All right, let's go. All right. So we all have those three guys.
- [15:09]
B
Yes.
- [15:10]
A
Rob, who? You want to take us through your last two spots?
- [15:12]
B
The last two spots are really tough. I'm gonna be honest with you. I ended up with Kawhi and Donovan Mitchell, but I considered Jaylen Brown, Jaylen Brunson, Tyrese Maxi for those spots as well, and they just got slightly edged out. What can I say? It's competitive. It's. Has less to do with what those guys aren't doing. And I think more of the combination of Kawhi being one of the most undeniable scorers in the league this season. He. I think he has kind of an. I'm. I'm tempted to say iron, ironclad, bulletproof kind of case. I'm curious if you guys have Kawhi on your list versus Donovan is the one that I had to negotiate a little bit more. Where. Where did y' all end up?
- [15:46]
C
I went ahead and went with Jaylen Brown just because I think that he's, you know, I think what he's contributed to. To like, steady the ship with them two way. Being a solid two way player. Not that Kawhi hasn't, but I just. I lean towards him just because of what the team situation there. Granted, if Kawhi were in Jalen Brown's situation, you know, you could just flip it back. It's very circumstantial in that way. I just. You're probably going to hate me for doing this, but I'm just stubbornly. I have Luka Doncic pending appeal. I just feel like. I feel like he's going to get it through. Like, I can't imagine it's not going to over quiet. Yeah. In my last spot because he's. It's interesting because in the scoring volume between like at the top of the league, you know, it's Shay and Luca. It's wild that Luca is 8 percentage points lower than Shea. Launch in the most threes. I guess that's probably where that's coming from. And Shea just kind of gets to the rim more, I guess. But I. I went ahead and just put Luca there anyway just because I think I. I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, maybe I'm stupid. I think he'll be there.
- [16:42]
A
I agree. I think if. If Luca was eligible, I think he would make my first team. I did this exercise as if he's not. And so I also had Jaylen Brown and Kawhi. Kawhi, I think we all agree on, just has been an absolute buzzsaw when he's been healthy. Did have like a elongated stretch where it like took him a while to rev up and actually get. Get going. And so like, I don't know how much you want to weigh that, but overall, once he did, I think from the new Year, he was probably one of the best four to five players in the league, so he deserves that. The efficiency is. Is sterling is basically 50, 40, 90. It's probably his best season since Toronto, I would say, and it's going to be his first first team all NBA since 2021. But I also had Brown in part because I think when I did this, at first blush, I kind of vomit drafted it and thought about the guys who like, really represented this season or like, dominated in ways that like, like, were notable to me over the course of it. And I think Brown fits that. The efficiency, I think, is going to pale, especially in comparison to Mitchell. But even since Tatum has been back, the numbers have been really good, even though the efficiency has slumped as well. I also think we need to think about him more and what he did like Luca, because the usage rate has just been off charts. Whereas, like, Luca led the league at 38. Brown was like right behind him at 36.3. And Mitchell is up there too. He's fifth. But like Brown basically was everything for an offense that was blistering pretty much from start to finish. They're number two in offense. And so like all those things combined, plus the defense, as Kyle mentioned, I think it's hard to. To pick Mitchell over Brown, especially when you start considering like team success and
- [18:16]
B
all this other stuff.
- [18:17]
A
And so that that kind of was the case for me. Brown or Mitchell, but I went Brown with a bullet.
- [18:24]
B
I don't have a problem with Brown at all. I think where I came down on it was a couple things. One, when you really like, zero in on their minute, specifically the Cavs with Mitchell on the floor have been as good and slightly better in some ways than the Celtics with Brown on the floor. And so we have these conceptions based on kind of like how we went into the season thinking about who the players are on these rosters and what we make of them. But by the end of the year, like, we're talking about a lot of the Celtics very differently and this is a very talented and successful team in its own right. Yes, Jalen Brown has carried them in ways that are really impressive, but Donovan Mitchell's been doing that same thing all, every step of the way through a bunch of injuries, through the Cav's own season. I, I think, and I, I also, I hear the like two way argument for Jaylen Brown sometimes within these sorts of conversations. I think it's a little bit overstated based on the season Jaylen Brown has had. He's taken on occasion some like, high profile assignments, but he has been a volume scorer and creator in the ways that they've needed and a participant on defense, which is basically what Donovan Mitchell is doing. And so the narrative case is strong. Jv, you're absolutely right that if you're trying to tell the story of the season, what Jaylen Brown has done is a greater indicator of kind of like what has happened and what has been meaningful than what Donovan Mitchell has done. I just don't take that much of an approach to like telling that particular story. And for me, it's like, which of these guys did more was better performed at a higher level. And I think Mitchell gets like a slight tick up. Despite the fact that every time we come to awards conversations, there's just like a wide swath. And I'm not accusing either of you of this, but like some people just like pretend Donovan Mitchell doesn't exist for some reason. Or it's like he's, he's always an afterthought, or he's always secondary, or he's always like, oh, we're going to hold his playoff failings against him. I don't really care what he's about to do in two weeks. I care about what he just did. And what he just did was have like a fucking amazing regular season. Even though no one was really watching the Cavs.
- [20:17]
C
The balance of it for me is, yeah, I mean, I Value just your own. I mean, everybody's personal philosophy drives a lot of these things, obviously. And for me, I mean, as a, as a floor raising creator, I think Donovan, you know, inarguably is higher than Jalen. There are problems that Jalen has been trying to answer his entire career, but where he sees the way he sees the floor, how he gets off the ball, how he shoots the ball from three, how he handles ball, things like that, like Donovan has the edge on him. And even though he's not like explicitly a night to night assignment guy, the way that you said, he's also playing with other guys who are just going to, in the pecking order take those assignments and whenever there's a bigger guy on there. And if you look at the other volume scores on here, other than, I mean, Wimby obviously is the. I don't even know if Wimby assignment even applies to Wimby just because he can zone the entire team. So he doesn't really fit in that category. But of the other volume scores who were in this, you know, this bunch of guys at the top, in this top five and the first team, all NBA, I think Brown is more capable on that front. It's also interesting when you get into thinking about, you know, it is a team sport, it's about winning, it's a two, you know, it's a two way sport. How much is it truly a 50, 50 thing. It's like offense is still weighted. I would say pretty heavier, a lot heavier than defense. But I, I would give, I would give Jalen the nod for that reason because he has been good offensively and he's been great defensively.
- [21:34]
A
Yeah, I would just throw two things out there where I do think team results matter in this context when we're talking about like the slimmest of margins. And I do feel like the Cavs were in the dregs of the east for most of the season until Harden really popped up there. You could argue injuries. I think you could also point to the fact that like, actually I think a lot of those guys have been better than we think. Like Mobley, I think will come up in all defense. I think he's been really good. I think there was enough there for Mitch if he did want the edge in this discussion to be on the same level of where the Celtics were. I just don't think that they played all that well until Harden kind of got there. I think Harden, someone will probably be in consideration for some of these last spots as well. And then on the defensive Side, like I. I know Brown hasn't been like gangbusters there, but I would say he's been good. He's like not best two way human in the league in the way that he probably thinks he is, but I do think he's been good and like passable enough in a way that Mitchell just doesn't help you at all. And again, we're talking about margins.
- [22:31]
B
That's what I think doesn't help you at all. Is maybe slightly uncharitable where like Mitchell neutral at best. I think. I think neutral most nights and then can be a little bit above that depending on matchup and intensity and things like that. Like you've seen the physicality with Mitchell when he really gets into it, how he can affect plays and be really disruptive. And I think Brown is kind of in a similar mole. Honestly. I just don't think it's that far apart this season in terms of their individual defense. Granted, every. The other. The rest of the case, as far as what Brown has carried, he's been one of the most aggressive drivers in the league this season. He's doing something for the Celtics that is so unique and can't be replicated elsewhere on their roster and thus is like incredibly critical just to their night to night survival. All of that stuff I find very compelling. I'm totally down for Jaylen Brown, first team, all NBA. I just ultimately went a little bit in Donovan's direction.
- [23:22]
A
So you have Brown, second team.
- [23:24]
B
Yes.
- [23:24]
C
Right? Yeah.
- [23:25]
A
What's the rest of your second team look like?
- [23:27]
B
Do you guys also have Brunson and Maxi, second team?
- [23:31]
C
I do.
- [23:32]
A
I have Maxine, third team.
- [23:33]
B
Okay. All right. So I have Jalen Brown. Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Maxey, Kevin Durant, Jamal Murray as my second team.
- [23:40]
C
Okay.
- [23:41]
A
Okay. I have Mitchell Brunson, K.D. murray, which I think aligns me with Rob on those four. And I have Jalen Johnson as my fit.
- [23:51]
B
This does raise an interesting subplot, which is how many Jalens will make any individual all NBA team. I think there's a decent chance we get four. Jalen's second team. Right. Because if Jay. If Jalen Brown, Jalen Brunson, Jalen Johnson and Jalen Duran all made second or third team. I mean, that would be a sight
- [24:08]
C
to behold in that situation. Jalen Rose gets some kind of award at summer league or something. We'll figure out some kind of champagne and campaigning type situation. Did you want me to round out mine really quickly? I. Because I bumped Kawhi down because of Jalen. So Kawhi Jalen, Brunson, Tyrese Maxey, Kevin Durant, and I had Donovan Mitchell second
- [24:26]
A
team, by the way, if you haven't listened to it, listener out there, the ESPN Daily Jalen episode is one of my favorite sports podcasts in recent years, where he, like, he takes credit for being this old Jalen and then like, walks you through why that is, and then it goes off and splinters into, like, the data on all of the Jalens that are out there now. I think Cram actually did an ESPN piece recently about, like, how Jalen is just, like, the dominant name in the NBA. It's. It's pretty fascinating. Let's see. I have two Jalens spelled like Jalen Rose on my team. Um, where do we want to start? Do you want to get through, like, the guys? I think we all agreed on Brunson and kd, right?
- [25:03]
B
Yeah.
- [25:05]
A
You want to take us through those guys?
- [25:06]
B
I mean, Brunson and KD feel pretty matter of fact to me. I'm going to be honest with you. I think Brunson will make almost everyone second team just based on the load that he carries for the Knicks, the success of their season. We all know what he does, and I think he shares something with Donovan Mitchell and Jaylen Brown, which is you don't have to, like, really comb through the film to figure out what makes them successful. It's, like, blindingly obvious, the load that they carry on offense and how important it is. So they're going to be there. Kevin Durant, I'm very curious to see how the voters net out on him because it's been a weird season. There's been all this.
- [25:37]
C
That's what I was going to ask you.
- [25:39]
B
Did you all have.
- [25:39]
C
Was there a little.
- [25:40]
B
Just like.
- [25:41]
C
Just a faint nausea? It's like, man, this is kind of odd because there's the. There's. There are the counting stack guys, and then there's this, like, the team situation, winning guys that you have to get in and kind of figure out if they're in a winning situation, how they apply to that, and I think they get a bump if they do apply to the winning. But for his situation, yeah, it's been such an odd year. I just. You. I'll. I'll tee that to you guys.
- [26:02]
B
It's been very odd. I don't want to over index on the theorizing about burner accounts and commentary and even. Even body language, which I think some of that stuff is visible and kind of like demonst project A lot onto it and make a lot of assumptions. I try to put that part in the back of my mind, but it's still there. Like, I'm not going to pretend that all the chatter around the Rockets is just, like, completely independent of any analysis you're doing.
- [26:29]
A
Well, let me ask you guys, just, like, we're just friends here talking.
- [26:32]
B
Yep.
- [26:33]
A
No one's listening to this. Like, do you think, like, not in the legal terms, but, like, do you think in your heart of hearts that, like, that was him actually, and do you hold that against him?
- [26:44]
B
I don't think it's him, but I think it's. But I think it's plausible because he probably says a lot of things like that either in the locker room or to other people. So it's. It's kind of hitting on a truth, even if it's not technically true.
- [26:56]
C
Katie is so funny. Every team that he goes to at the beginning, you know, it's like, remember how good the vibes were? We were talking about the Rockets. I think, Justin, I did a pie without you where we just talked about the rockets for, like 50 minutes, how amazing they were. But then, you know, time wears on. And every single time, you know, Katie does. I've got to be me. I've got to be me, you know, So I just think. I didn't know that that was coming. You're welcome, audience. But, yeah, he can't help himself. Right. Every situation seems to go this way,
- [27:25]
B
and yet he's still doing the Katie things, like the can't. Helping himself cuts both ways.
- [27:29]
A
It is so funny because I ding Harden eventually, and I do most years because of, like, his effect on team building and if he's asking out or if he's healthy, and I think a lot of people do that, but with kd, you kind of suppress it, even though more likely than not, he's out here just bashing his teammates. But you're right, this is probably the most representative KD season that I could think of, where, yes, everything is chaotic around him, and yet he's just like a paragon of efficiency, where he's at basically 50, 40, 90 again at 26 point per game. And like, we talk about all of the availability issues with a lot of our biggest superstars, but Here he is 74 games right there.
- [28:03]
B
And the muck of the Rockets, even though he may be responsible for some of that muck at times, like, he's such a life preserver for them that I. I see there are a lot of kind of systemic issues brought on by Fred Van Vliet's injuries and the roster overall and IME Udoka in terms of how that offense flows. And they just need him to be exactly this kind of guy at volume in order to survive. And the fact that he just continues to deliver it at the efficiency you outlined, Justin, I find that to be a compelling case even with everything else being so noisy.
- [28:33]
C
Katie is the is the life the buoy that is like keeping their mouth just above the water line so their offense doesn't totally drown in the muck. But yeah, yeah, yeah, continues to do what he does.
- [28:48]
A
Can we talk about Jamal Murray here?
- [28:49]
B
I would love nothing more.
- [28:51]
A
Always I thought pretty clearly a second team guy, especially once you start digging into the numbers like best season of his career by none available as hell. Which is like not something we could say about him. In the past. Top 10 in assists this year. The playmaking has just been off the charts. And I think the thing that really just knocked my socks off is when you look at the offensive numbers without Jokic on the floor, which is, I think something that someone could ding him for in the past without Jokic, 118.4 offensive rating, which would be sixth in the league now. Joke is better. Without Murray, they would be second. And together they're 130.1 offensive rating, which is fucking unreal. But I think he's just like he's been on an absolute other level. And for me it really didn't take much to put him on the second team.
- [29:35]
B
Yeah, I think it's a cool story because this is the best he's ever been. But it's also a cool story because he's put himself into the kind of class where he withstands scrutiny against the best players in the sport. Like, period. End of discussion. A lot of that is the playmaking you talked about, Justin. It's thriving with and without Jokic. It's also that playmaking juxtaposed for me with the turnovers or the lack thereof where he's just like creating at such a prolific level. He's someone who's kind of like constantly asked because of his role to push and be on the offensive and kind of continue to take and take and take, whether it's space or opportunities or matchups or whatever. Like it's just really important for him and the Jokic dynamic that he's the one who is consistently aggressive and to do that while racking up this many assists. And I want to say there's only one guy in the league who's Matched Murray in terms of the heights of his assist rate and the lows of his turnover rate. And that guy is Shake El just Alexander. Like that's the overall like air we're talking about in terms of creation without mistake. That's fucking great. That's, that's an incredible case to make for yourself over the course of an entire season. And to see him put together this kind of regular campaign after we've all wondered is he ever going to be capable of this kind of thing? An incredible turn, like corner to turn in his overall career.
- [30:50]
C
Yeah, it's incredible that he not only sort of returned to form like you were saying to in form in the past for him had been guy who's on the fringe of just like he was always that guy who, you know, you would, you would bring up after the fact when you would talk about these teams in the highest of the highs of production in the league and you'd be like, you know, he was actually really, really good, but just never quite seems to be in these all star, all NBA conversations with Jamal Murray, who on a punch for punch, you know, basis in the playoffs could score and carry in the biggest moments and you would, it, it, it is cool that he not only returned to that form, but came back and had one of his best seasons. And he, you know, you were talking about him, you know, Jokic not being there. I think we talked about this a little bit recently where him stepping into the void when Jokic was out. I mean he, he was really productive during that time. He shot the shit out of the ball. His percentages have been incredible. He's, he's so integral to what they, they do. So extra gold star for not only getting back there, but doing, you know, leveling up well.
- [31:43]
B
Plus, Justin, I know this must be a potential joy for you as somebody who has crowed about the Nicola Yic never played with an all star teammate agenda. Also the Nicole Yic has never played with an all NBA teammate agenda. Might be put to rest preemptively before it even really starts.
- [31:59]
A
What will they tweet about now?
- [32:00]
B
You know, I suspect they'll find something.
- [32:03]
A
Yeah, maybe especially always. So you guys had Tyrese Maxi and I had Jaylen Johnson here. I'll be honest, I flipped this kind of at the last second because Maxi was on my second team when I did just like a first blush gut check of all of these and I could be swayed to put him back there. I think part of this is recency bias. The Sixers have kind of languished with Embiid kind of in and out and in this weird state practically since the All Star break. And so the, the Hawks have actually jumped them in the standings. And I do want to kind of credit Johnson for like being a huge engine of that. I just also look at the playmaking. The fact that he has eight assists at his size is just kind of unbelievable. And I just sent me down this role thinking about like how it almost feels like quietly there's been this succession of the Giannis template filtering down to these power wings and all of a sudden we have like maybe not a fully new sort of player, but certainly an augmentation or like a sub category of the honest type where it's just like these big strong guys. Denny, another guy of just like not only being able to get downhill and get paid touches and drive offense in that way, but also be able to create for others and also still have the defensive side of it that I think a lot of the heliocentric guys don't have. And so I don't know. We've used the term power ring for a while, or at least I have, but I feel like now it seems like a very clear archetype and Johnson to me feels like the prime representative of it this year.
- [33:32]
B
You just can't trick us into saying bad things about Jaylen Johnson. Like, I, I can't tear down his case. I can only tell you that what Tyrese Maxi has done because of the Embiid stuff, because of the Paul George stuff, because of everything else, like the Sixers to this point have played what, 77, 78 games. They've had 29 different starting lineups within those games. They can't keep people on the floor, they can't keep people out of suspension. Tyrese Maxi's been one of the few constants of their season, has had to have like a massive workload because of it, and yet you would never really know it from his baseline efficiency. Like, he just carries himself so well modulating between all these different roles. Like, that's something I deeply admire. Maybe even more so than the recency of what the Hawks in the last month and a half to two months have been able to put together.
- [34:19]
C
Isn't it interesting how I almost feel like Jaylon Johnson has market corrected Paolo Van Caro in a way, like the things that we expected from Paolo. Both Duke guys, I very, very different Duke seasons. But it does seem like he's kind of market corrected him a little bit. I think he's the like, prototypical, platonic, whatever it Is idea of that archetype of play that you're talking about. Justin Jalen seems to do it better. I mean, I don't think it's like, you know, Paolo is just hopeless for all time. It's just Jalen has been so fantastic and fit that mold really, really well.
- [34:53]
B
It's the difference too, of like so much of Paolo's game, even at his best, is sort of fits and starts. Right. It's like literally two steps forward, one step back in terms of the way he navigates the floor. Like he is a more of a surveyor versus Jalen Johnson.
- [35:07]
C
Game samples that too.
- [35:10]
B
But Jalen is just always in the flow in a way that I find to be not just effective as a player, but effective in a way that is elevating Nikhil Alexander, Walker's elevating Dyson Daniels. Right. It's creating opportunities for this kind of Hawks run and allowing, you know, CJ McCollum to be himself. It. It's just one of those types of players who brings out the best in everybody by clarifying what it is about their games that works and that that's hard to pick against. I just think Maxi has been honestly so good to deserve some first team consideration if Luka's going to be out. And so to me, he's in like a slightly different class of player. But Jalen's right there knocking on the door.
- [35:48]
A
Also, we talked about availability being a pretty important availability, especially in Adam Silver's NBA maxi. 38.2 minutes per game, which is the most in a decade since 2015. 16.
- [36:02]
B
Take a bow, Nick Nurse.
- [36:04]
A
Yeah. Can you guys guess who that player was? The last time we've had this.
- [36:08]
B
So what was. What Was that season?
- [36:10]
A
2015, 16. This player played 38.1 minutes per game the 2015 season.
- [36:16]
B
Who would have been really racking up minutes?
- [36:19]
A
I lived in New Orleans. This is so long ago.
- [36:23]
C
This is Drew Holiday.
- [36:26]
A
No, no. He thought that was a hit that year, I think.
- [36:30]
B
Why do I feel like it's a. What? I feel like it's a Memphis Grizzly. Is it a Memphis grizzly?
- [36:33]
A
It's an MVP candidate from that year.
- [36:35]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [36:36]
C
LeBron.
- [36:37]
A
He did not win.
- [36:38]
B
That was a Steph win.
- [36:40]
C
Wait, Harden.
- [36:41]
A
15, 16.
- [36:41]
B
It could be Harden.
- [36:42]
A
Harden. Yes. Not only did James Harden play 38 minutes a game that year, he also played all. All 82 games, bracketed by two seasons in which he played 81 games. We didn't know how good we had it when players played.
- [36:57]
B
We really did not. I don't know if you two have been privy to some of the the online chatter slash debate relitigating like Tim Duncan versus Kevin Garnett based, I'm going to be honest, based at least from what I've seen, based purely on basketball reference from people who have never seen these guys play, but for which year, just overall, for their careers, kind of recontextualizing the the Duncan vs. Garnett debate. But I think James Harden is going to be due for a big time. Like 30 years from now when people look back at his stats, including some of the durability, they're just going to be in awe. I mean, how could you not be? And I think it's one of those things where we probably held too much against him in real time as far as some of his failings and didn't appropriately appreciate things like that. But it's a thorny conversation when you're having to watch some of his worst on like on film in real time in these playoff games while also still trying to understand who he was in that regular season context.
- [37:48]
A
All right, why don't we take a quick break? We come back, we'll do our third teams this episode is brought to you by Men's Wearhouse. Is your wardrobe ready for every occasion? Whether you're catching the game with your buds or maybe out for an event? Because at Men's Wearhouse, they've got you covered with a huge variety of clothing in styles from tailored clothing like suits, sports coats, dress shirts, tuxes for more formal events to casual clothing like polos, shirts, shorts and jeans for everyday wear, the Men's Wearhouse experts can help you work out your look while their on site tailors guarantee your clothes fit your body comfortably. Men's Wearhouse has over 600 locations nationwide. They are here and nearby when you're
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D
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E
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- [40:43]
A
love the way you look. All right, third team's absolute mess, especially because one of the guys I have down here is no longer in consideration. So Booker is at 61 games, but I guess two of his games don't count because he didn't play enough minutes.
- [40:59]
B
I believe that to be true.
- [41:00]
A
Jesus fucking Christ. Whatever. Just and just after Easter.
- [41:06]
C
Wash your mouth out.
- [41:09]
A
Devin Booker has not risen, unfortunately. Just a quick check on the on the mid off here. Rob currently is with the Suns 19 and 19 and the Blazers are at 21 and 16.
- [41:23]
B
Wow.
- [41:23]
A
I think, I believe you're down two and a half games with like four or five to go for each guys.
- [41:27]
B
That's going to be tough for me.
- [41:29]
A
It's going to be real tough. Although the Blazers coming up have Denver and the spurs and then the Clippers in a pretty huge game. But they did play well against the Clippers the other night.
- [41:38]
B
Did we ever Settle stakes for this bet.
- [41:41]
A
I think you owe me a million dollars.
- [41:43]
B
You know what? I can't argue it. If we didn't. If we didn't settle it, that's on me.
- [41:47]
C
His new prestige success, man. I'm sure he's got it.
- [41:50]
B
I got the million for Justin. Don't even worry.
- [41:52]
C
Hang him upside down. Shake it out of the pockets.
- [41:54]
A
We'll figure something out. All right, so my third team, which I hate just right off the bat.
- [42:01]
B
Come on. These are good players.
- [42:03]
A
They're fine players, but when I think of, like, the best players of this season, I am definitely not going to think of Chet Holmgren, Jalen Duran, Carl Anthony Towns in addition to Tyrus Maxi, who I had on here. I guess if you were to twist my arm and figure out a fifth guy on the fly, the first guy out I have is Scotty Barnes. But I'm willing to really kind of figure this out with you guys. Who do you have, Rob?
- [42:29]
B
I love the Scotty Barnes pick, honestly. So I have Jalen Johnson in my Tyrese Maxi spot. Then I have the a complete agreement on the next three. Cat Duran, Chet Holmgren. I think there's going to be a lot of consensus building around the three of them. And I did end up going James Harden for the last spot. And we flagged this on a couple different pods now that he could be one of these players who doesn't get picked for all star but could make all NBA based on the weird trajectory of his season. I kind of think he's going to be there when, when you start to delineate his impact versus the next group of guys who are going to be in consideration there.
- [43:02]
C
Yeah.
- [43:03]
A
What do you have, Kyle?
- [43:05]
C
I had Jamal Murray, which I regret. I kind of wish I had had him. I actually when you said that, I made a note to myself here. I just want to stop and say that I hate this because I was so mad about who I was. The Nate just wanted to let myself know that I hated what was going on. Jalen Johnson, Scotty Barnes, Chad Holmgren, and James Harden. I actually had him as well.
- [43:26]
A
Okay, so we all had Duran, Holmgren and did you have Cat, Kyle?
- [43:31]
C
I didn't have Duran or Cat.
- [43:33]
A
Okay.
- [43:34]
B
So sorry. You have Scott. Oh, you have first. You have Luca, where we don't. So that accounts for one of those spots. And then you have Scotty Barnes.
- [43:40]
C
Effectively everything down. Yeah, yeah. I had had Barnes.
- [43:46]
A
Where do we want to start? I, I, I mean, homegrown and Duran seemed like easy picks for me. Rob, how did you feel?
- [43:53]
B
Yeah, I felt pretty good about that. And honestly, the more I really looked at it, the more I feel like Chet has to be there. I just think what he's bringing on defense is not only just like very close to Wemby level where I think the defensive player of the year stuff, and we're going to get into that later in the week, feels open and shut, but I don't think quite is. I think, I think Chad is in a, in a very rare era defensively and if that matters to you, and it should, that he needs to be in consideration, heavy consideration for third team and he's doing more than enough offensively to kind of counterweight his case as well. Especially when you think about these other guys who are going to be in consideration here. Like, I just have. I feel more confident in the balance of Chet's game and how he fits and what sense he makes in like a night tonight basketball context than I do even someone like Scotty, who's had an all defense worthy season all his own, but is kind of a little more amorphous on offense in a way that you have to figure out consistently. He scores more and he's been efficient, he's been really good. But there's just a reliability and an ease to Chet's game that I think pencils him in really well for all NBA.
- [44:58]
C
Yeah, Chet's versatility I think is a big credit to him. Whereas like you're talking about figuring out where, where even though Scottie does score, it's like it's easy to overlook his. The just fluidness of how easily and effortlessly he can move within a basketball situation and do a variety of things. But I just think at the end of the day, the player who is probably the most integral two way player on, you know, the best two way team in the NBA, I think deserves to be there. You know, we talked about it where I think he's one of the best two way players in the world you could talk me into. I mean as we're sitting here, the Barnes over Durin thing, you, you get in these lodge logistical, logical, sort of. I made this argument for one player I need to be consistent on. I think that the Durant Maxi thing was occurring to me as we were talking about it where I was just like despite circumstances, productive. I, you know, giving Durant that bump, I was like, I should also give Maxi that credit. I think the same thing is true of like Homegren and Durant and Duran. You know, his two way presence this year has been so strong you could, you could easily top me off at the Barnes thing. Not that peer pressure is in play here, but it could be. Yeah, but that's my, that's my homegren stance there.
- [46:08]
A
I think homegrown has just kind of become the Derek White Memorial plus minus God. And I think it's really telling that beyond the top two guys, Shea and Wemby, like homegrown is right there. And now a lot of Thunder players are like that. I think A.J. mitchell is fourth, but I think it does speak to the versatility, the two way excellence of Holmgren that he is so far up there. Duran is just, I mean, especially when Cade isn't there. You do want to reward the best team in the Eastern Conference and he has played well enough to be in consideration. The one that I really like had to bite down and stomach was Kat being there because I had Barnes up there at first, in part because Barnes has exceeded expectations. And you really want to reward someone who's really kind of blossoming, coming into his own. Whereas I feel like this is a pretty mediocre Cat season overall. But then you like look at the offensive numbers, especially the Knicks offense without him on the court, and it's just like, oh God, like he clearly is special in a way that Barnes probably isn't offensively certainly, and just perhaps overall. And then like the defense, despite the fact that Kat isn't going to like really help there. The Knicks have been very good on defense in part because OG has been great, but like they've been fine with Cat on the floor. And I think that speaks to his overall just like he's doing Cat stuff. And that alone, I think is enough to power him onto that team.
- [47:21]
B
His mistakes are so loud that the narratives around Cat are always going to be similarly loud. And he's just going to drive you crazy sometimes. And it's one of those things you have to accept and once you do, then all that offense really sings. And I think, I think the defensive point with Cat is really important too that you mentioned, Justin, because part of what they did is not just everyone has their head screwed on right. Oh, they're trying harder. Oh, they found, you know, they made a couple of bench additions like a Jose Alvarado here or there that have helped their team. They kind of like simplified what they were doing on offense in a way that just played more to Cat strengths. And yes, he's not a hyperversatle defender, but like, if you allow him to play a more restrained spot, which is a little more predictable for the way he likes to navigate the floor on defense. He's not dead in the water out there. And so that to me is enough to get him into this conversation. And the offense is ultimately what wins him a place for all NBA third team.
- [48:15]
C
Is he the most maddening like on court player in this, in this group of players that we're looking at? I'm like, I don't think anybody else is. Has to navigate the headache of. Of those types of things the way that Cat does. Because you're talking about it. When I, When I started thinking about him, I was like, I can't. I just can't. And he didn't, he didn't make it on my, on any of the three of my teams. But I think he's probably number one in the maddening rankings among this tier player. Right.
- [48:42]
A
And if Luca is ineligible, then yeah, certainly.
- [48:44]
B
Well, I think the difference is Cat is usually mentioning if you follow his team, if you, if you want his team to win, if you're a fan of the Knicks. I think Cat is maddening. I feel like a lot of the Luca noise comes from people who just like, don't like the way he plays, but they're not necessarily Lakers fans.
- [48:59]
A
Yes, yes. It's. It's tough to watch is.
- [49:02]
C
I'm not for the Knicks. He drives me insane. You think I would root, like, get. Root for him for the Kentucky thing, but man, yeah, he just.
- [49:09]
B
He's dead.
- [49:10]
C
You want to pull out the hair.
- [49:11]
B
I don't have Hashtag. Not all Wildcats. You know, it's tough.
- [49:16]
A
But you had Harden in your last spot.
- [49:18]
B
I did.
- [49:19]
A
Both of you did.
- [49:19]
C
I did too.
- [49:20]
B
I think he's had just like a strangely quiet season despite very bizarre circumstances across the board. Right. Like, the start with the Clippers was very weird. Justin, as you were talking about whether to hold against him his various, like, exits from these teams, I'm. I'm interested in that conversation. I don't know that I hold this one against him necessarily. Like, the timing of it is weird and odd. But also, if you don't envision a future with the Clippers. When are you supposed to do that?
- [49:49]
A
I guess they preempted it.
- [49:50]
B
Yeah.
- [49:50]
A
Like it was going to happen.
- [49:51]
B
And they got a favor, when you think about it. Right, Right. He got the Clippers, Darius Garland.
- [49:57]
A
He set them up for another generation of mediocrity.
- [50:00]
C
Yet another assist for James Harden.
- [50:04]
B
I just think I like that one. What, what Harden does for an offense can. Yeah, like we, We've kind of typified it. As one sort of thing. But how he's played for the Cavs proves that there's gradations to it. And there's a lot of different star types of stars he can play with, including Donovan Mitchell. Including. Yeah, he can throw the lodge to Jared Allen, but he can be a facilitator to another great score at the same time. I've really admired what he's done with the Cavs, but honestly I was admiring what he was doing with the Clippers even when their season looked like it was going in the tank. Like he was so clearly the best thing going for a cursed team that was under intense scrutiny. And now he's one of the best things going for a team that has been kind of climbing and solidifying its place in the East. And if you're gonna, I guess Justin, if you're not gonna make the Donovan Mitchell case, you kind of have to make the James Harden case.
- [50:50]
A
Right? That's kind of what I'm thinking about in my head here because I did dump bump him to second team. And so wouldn't that be a credit to Harden because the Cavs clicked into place once he got there. I'm just thinking through Harden's career at this point. Just we talked about like the Rockets era and just like how maybe underrated that even is at this point, but just now this is going to be back to back third team all NBA performances at the tail end of his career when we've kind of just like left him for dead for a large extent. Like by far the weirdest MVP level career. Even like considering like Russ in there. Like Russ almost feels like logical in the way that Harden's career does not. He's, he's just maddening and like hard to figure, really hard to pin down how you feel about him in any discussion.
- [51:36]
B
I would say as far as mystifying MVP level careers. Joel Embiid probably would like a place in this conversation too. But.
- [51:43]
A
But even that's like, that's injuries. Like you could point to one thing that's.
- [51:47]
C
Yeah, that's grieving missed lost opportunity where. Yeah. I mean they're just who. It's going to be very interesting when the, the people, the kids that are like listening to us right now. If there are any kids that aren't. If there aren't any like pasty white indie indie dorks who aren't who are ascending and going to have these conversations in like 15, 20 years, I'm just like Harden is going to have so many caveats to point to like man, this happened, this happened, this happened. And you know us in real time. We're just like, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, Harden. Why weren't you like Kobe? Why weren't you like Jordan? You know, all those kinds of arguments that we make, you know, the hamstrings, the injuries to teammates, guys not making shots. There's just all kinds of different things that you can point to with him that are going to be. There are going to be some interesting cases. I agree with you.
- [52:35]
A
Justin showing up fat to. To one.
- [52:39]
C
Showing up.
- [52:39]
B
Yeah.
- [52:39]
C
What if he hadn't done that, you
- [52:41]
A
know, and just to force his way off it. I've never seen someone like do a sit in by being fat. It was groundbreaking.
- [52:47]
B
To the mystery of all this. It's still not entirely clear that he was fat or if it was just weird camera angles or like sandbagging his
- [52:54]
C
way out of there.
- [52:55]
B
It's.
- [52:55]
C
It's an incredible drafty. It was drafty in that one spot on the floor. And his jersey kind of just for a moment inflated.
- [53:02]
B
But he can only be himself. And so it's like all of this stuff happens. And you're right that he did maybe more than any other superstar of his generation, just need that one break that could overwhelm all of the negative things we say about him and make him like unimpeachable. He. He never got it. He hasn't gotten it. Maybe something crazy will happen with the Cavs in these playoffs. We'll have to wait and see. I do like his inclusion on the on the list. This is not a reason to put James Harden all NBA. But in a year where so many of the best playmakers are disqualified, your Lucas and your Cades and whatnot, there's just like an underrepresentation of guys who are making plays for others among this all NBA group. And Jokic is clearly there. We talked about Jamal Murray. It's not like there are no like guys piling up assists. Jalen Johnson even in this category, very high. But like I'm just missing some of that old school heliocentric, but also sometimes not heliocentric offense. And I want to salute James Harden for the work that he's doing. You know, just. Just being a generous teammate.
- [53:58]
A
Just building a census, bro.
- [54:00]
B
I'm trying. We're being. If we're building a representative sample, it's important.
- [54:06]
A
That's right for history. Everyone needs to know that Scotty Barnes was very good on defense. It was like passable offensively.
- [54:17]
B
You can't help yourself.
- [54:20]
A
This is so disappointing, but whatever. All right. Any other honorable mentions before we get to the other two teams here?
- [54:27]
B
Bam at a bio.
- [54:29]
A
Yeah. Worst offensive season of his career. Probably at least efficiency wise.
- [54:33]
B
Yeah, I mean like the 83 is going to live forever but at the
- [54:36]
A
same time irony there.
- [54:38]
B
Yeah, it's like there's something about picking a big for all NBA who's shooting 44% from the field and under 50 effective field goal percentage that even for as great as he's on defense, I just could not bring myself to do.
- [54:49]
A
Yeah, I had Bam as well on my short list. I think Denny's the real unfortunate one because I think think ever since the back injury he's just been a completely different player. Like just look at the numbers. Like the three point shooting has just completely fallen off a cliff or if you just watch the games like he's just not the same guy.
- [55:04]
C
And the fact just run people over now. Is that what you're saying?
- [55:07]
A
Yeah. I'll be honest, for the end of the season I was getting a little tired of that as well. So.
- [55:11]
C
Just kidding. Portland.
- [55:12]
A
It comes from all. But yeah, he's just. The numbers have fallen off, the effect has fallen off. And like even at that Clippers game, he was awesome in that one. But that was like such a moment where it's like, oh, this used to be every game and now this felt like a special occasion. And so especially considering the contract stuff that they're going to get into down the road here where they need him to hit the accelerant so that they can give him a supermax in order to keep him because he's going to hit free agency. I actually think this is a pretty huge outcome in terms of long term sort of significance.
- [55:45]
B
It's a great other guys, Evan Mobley. I mean this is a weird Mobley season, but it turns out a weird Mobley season is still better than basically the vast majority of the league. So we, we try not to anchor our expectations from Mobley against him. But he was, he was quite good. Just not what we anticipated.
- [56:02]
A
All right, all defense. I think you guys are going to have these four guys and I feel like I have them all in some form of pen. Like I'll push down a little bit harder in pen on maybe Wemby, Chet in Barnes. I have those guys deep pen and then I have Go Bear and I think those are pretty unimpeachable. Right.
- [56:23]
B
I think for me it's more three. It's more Victor Chet Gobert as like gotta be their first Team open for negotiation as far as like what even what you want to do on a defensive player of the year battle with those three. I did have Barnes first team as well, but one that I had to more wrangle his place away from some of these frankly, like a lot of really great perimeter defenders in contention for all defense this year. And then I, I did go with Bam for my last first team spot. What, what did you do for that one, Justin?
- [56:53]
A
That one was tough to negotiate because it really got me down the rabbit hole of like what position you playing having more effect on defense. And I think if you subscribe to that, I would have put Bam and frankly I'm still thinking about putting him there. But I ultimately went Derek White in part because he's just been so. His all around effect on that team has been so nuts. We talked about the plus minus before. He's still on the. In the like the cabinet of plus minus gods, not the number one like Chet Holmer is at this point in part because he's been just such a destructive force defensively and he has been pretty bad offensively, honestly. But like his rim protection numbers are insane. His closeouts are nuts and the Celtics are a top four defense and like he's the best defensive player on that team.
- [57:34]
C
Yeah. Yeah. I mean Steel percentage is off the charts. He just does what Derrick White does quietly. It just, you know, affects winning. How do you guys feel about a Sar Thompson?
- [57:45]
A
Love my second team.
- [57:46]
B
Yeah. Also on my second team. I think he's one where the, the minutes played actually does factor in a tiny bit. And it's.
- [57:54]
C
Is he under?
- [57:55]
B
He's not under. I mean like he's qualified. It's more just when you're weighing defensive impact and he's playing hundreds of minutes less than many of the other candidates. How much does that factor into your evaluation of. Of what he's putting on the floor for an entire season?
- [58:10]
C
It's interesting because normally my knee jerk reaction is that Amin is ahead of him in, in terms of. I prefer them. I might still even prefer them in a vacuum. But this season I thought. I think Asar has an argument. There is just a cluster of like perimeter guys like you were saying Justin, that are. They're just really good. We got a lot of good perimeter defensive talent in the league right now. Derek White, obviously. Casey Wallace, I think it deserves. I mean he's been incredible. How do you. Yeah, yeah. I'll just say my first team, I'd. Vic. Obviously I didn't have any like hard like Top threes. The way you guys were talking about it, it was like Wimby, Scotty, Barnes, Gobert, Chet. The fifth spot is just flexible for me. I don't. I. I don't. I also don't love the idea of just going like five big guys. I don't know.
- [58:55]
B
But it is what it is.
- [58:56]
C
One perimeter, right. Representative perimeter guy. Feels like there needs to be. That needs to be there. Right?
- [59:03]
A
It really depends on.
- [59:05]
B
I mean, the rules say no. The rules say put whoever you want wherever you want. And I. I do try to measure against this by saying, like, it is relative to position. Right. It's not just like, bam at a bio is a center and thus more impactful and affects more plays than a guard. If bam out of bio doesn't have enough of an advantage on, like, the league average center relative to, like, Casen Wallace versus the league average guard, I think that has to matter. I think that has to be part of your calculus.
- [59:32]
A
Yeah, it's unfortunate too, because I feel like all NBA opened up terrain, whereas this one kind of really just narrowed our focus where it's like big men affect defense more. And so these are bound to be oftentimes five big men or four big men. It's just. It's hard to avoid at this point. I ultimately went white just because I think I wanted to credit the Celtics defense a little bit more than the Heat. But I have Bama, my second team. I have a men, I have a sar. And getting back to the. The minutes thing I do, I agree with Rob where the minute stuff, it's like, oh, tough. He's not on the floor as much, but the fact that he's leading the league in steals despite that, I think is more credit for him and why he deserves, like, number second team with a bullet. I also have Casen Wallace and I have Evan Mobley.
- [60:10]
B
Okay, so for second team, actually, before we get into second team, can we talk about Scotty Barnes for a minute? Just, like, purely defensively. I know we touched on him all NBA, but I, I. Another case where I'm. I'm very interested to see where the voters land on Barnes and who's been kind of like, locked into what he's doing in part because I think if you've watched the Raptors, like literally at all, he's been just like a jump off the screen sort of disruptive presence where you're just constantly forced to, like, reckon with how many plays he's blowing up, like, how. How much ultimately that he's affecting the flow of the game and defense is one of these areas where there is data. We take like every shred of reliable defensive data into account. When we're looking at things like this, whether it's room protection numbers or isolation defense or on offs, like, however you want to, like start parsing, that is up to you. I do think feel is a huge part of it. And it's one of those things where defense is so psychological and you can tell when offenses are steering around a player, when they're scared to like invite someone into the action. And Scotty Barnes has become one of these defenders where you see teams going to great lengths to stay away from him because he will muck up everything you do and he will kind of work his way into the action whether you want him to or not. So I just have incredible respect for his season. I think it's been one of those. That sort of elevates him into a different conversation as a defender and hopefully should crystallize for a lot of people what his long term value can be for the Raptors.
- [61:36]
C
Yeah, there is definitely a threshold you pass that speak just to continue what you're. What you're saying there, where you pass into a realm where the counterfactual starts to demonstrate what you are as a defender rather than the. And there are all kinds of like cumulative, you know, counting. You're talking about like leading, you know, leading the league in steals or something like that. It's like hard to even hard to weigh something like that against, like, steals are all. If you go back and you watch the clips of what happens in a steal, people will get credited for just found money, be like, oh, there it. Oh, that's mine. You know, Whereas, like Case Wallace leads the league in deflections. Just because he didn't like come away with every single one of those, does that mean that he's a less valuable, you know, but for, you know, speaking about Scotty in particular, yeah, there is a. There's a level you get to where teams are and teams do this, they'll go. They'll be like, we have to find a way to keep this guy out of the action. And I think Scotty has earned a special. A special badge. I don't know if it'll be in the top 100. Maybe it should be in there. Avoiding this dude. Maybe that's. I don't know what the title avoid
- [62:35]
B
this dude is pretty good, honestly.
- [62:38]
C
Beware, Beware.
- [62:39]
A
But yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because as like kind of like a side tangent on this, I was thinking about who the best perimeter stopper is, because that's kind of like a title belt we throw around pretty much every, like, couple months or so. And, like, I think a lot of these guys are being going to be in contention. I almost, like, stopped when it came to Scotty because he almost is something completely different unto himself, where he's like one of these defensive players in the NFL where it's like, you just don't pigeonhole him in a position because he could affect the game in so many ways because he's so big and physical. It's almost like. Like, do we even consider him a perimeter stopper? But if he's not a perimeter stopper, like, he doesn't fit into the big category. And so I don't really know how to fit him into the taxonomy here.
- [63:19]
B
Yeah, he's not a pure stopper. He's not a pure rim protector. He's just fucking everywhere all the time. And that. That is a really unique thing and a really powerful thing in a way that I think OG can be in that category as well. I think Derek White is kind of in that category in his way. You may think of him as a perimeter stopper, but if you're a perimeter stopper who's also your team's like, best backline guard, rim protector like Derek White is, in terms of contesting and rotating, that adds a different element to your game. I think, in terms of pure stoppers, I would probably say A SAR is the guy right now. Like, he's kind of holding that title for me as far as if I need one stop on a pure score or like a pure creator, like a LUCA type or a Cade type. Ironically enough, Asar would be the guy I would tab to do it, which is why he probably has played less than any player that I seriously considered who's eligible for the. For these awards and yet had to be there for me on my second team.
- [64:13]
A
Did you give your full second team?
- [64:15]
B
No, sorry, sorry. We. We diverted into Scotty Barnes territory. My second team. Asar, Derrick White, who you guys had on your first. I did not. Kayson, Wallace, OG Anunoby, and I ended up with Stefan Castle in my last spot as well, which I'm. I'm very excited to talk about Castle's exploits this season, to say the least.
- [64:32]
A
I couldn't bring myself to do it, but I'm glad you did.
- [64:34]
C
I had a hard time with the second and third. I did. I went ahead and did a third team too, but I had Case and I'm In Dyson Daniels, Derek White, and bam. What a fucking time to be alive. I know you just can't go wrong. I mean, it's just an incredible group of defenders, man.
- [64:48]
B
Dyson's one of these guys too, who has kind of like faded out of some of these conversations because he's gone from putting up steel numbers no one else has done before to merely leading the league in steals, but is still awesome and all over the floor. And I do think his case is somewhat complicated by the fact that Nikhil takes a lot of really good defensive assignments as well, and so they're kind of, in a way, working against each other. But Castle, I mean, not only do I love watching him, I just think he's become an unshakable perimeter defender. And when you think about, like, what makes a stopper, a lot of that in terms of our concept, just like your mental image of what that looks like, it's containing a guy one on one, right? It's staying in front of them step for step. It's contesting the shot. But when you think about things like screen navigation, I mean, Castle flattens himself out, I think, better than anyone else in the game right now to get around those screens. And even if you do make contact and manage, like, pry him off an assignment for 0.5 seconds, he's as relentless as anybody in terms of getting back into plays and mucking them up or, you know, cross crossing into another assignment based on what the spurs scheme, like, demands of him in that particular moment. And so I fully recognize that being Stefan Castle means you get a lot of COVID from Victor Wembanyama. I just think he is both the pure stopper and the like, incredible chaos agent that erases some of those, like, concerns or qualifiers for me.
- [66:10]
A
You guys don't have Mobley, right?
- [66:11]
B
I do.
- [66:12]
A
Not on your list?
- [66:13]
C
No.
- [66:13]
A
And this is the case where it's like, it's the opposite of what I was saying about putting White on my first team, where it's like when I was looking at the impact stuff, it's like even a very good defensive season for Mobley feels like it has more impact on the results than like a good perimeter defender there. And so you look at the rim protection stuff, Mobley's like an on chat level. He's not quite wemby or anything like that, but he's like minus 11 in rim protection difference. And I just, when I'm watching, he still feels great on that end, I think. I almost wonder if he's a victim of his own disappointing offensive progression. And we are not taking enough credit or giving him enough credit for what he's doing defensively still. And so that's why I have him on and some of the these other guys.
- [66:52]
B
I think it's entirely possible. I. I think the only thing for me with. With Mobley and Kyle. Tell me if you. If this is consistent with what you've seen too. But I feel like Cleveland's defense overall has just been a little inconsistent in a way that I'm still trying to square, and that includes with him on the floor at times. So it's just. He's had kind of an odd year where it is the offense, but it's also. They just don't feel stable or at least haven't felt stable for a lot of the season.
- [67:16]
C
Yeah. I mean, the. The continuity maybe is playing a role there that they just haven't. And you add James Harden, you become a different defensive team too. So. I don't know. There's a lot of variables at play I wanted to do. I have a trivia question that I think is going to make Justin really happy, which might bury the lead. I probably shouldn't have said that, but who do you guys think leads the league in contested shots?
- [67:38]
B
So it's gonna be. So usually, almost always, this is I up.
- [67:41]
C
I should not have said that. Are you sorry? Yeah, go ahead.
- [67:44]
A
Is it catching us?
- [67:45]
C
No.
- [67:46]
A
Or is it clinging?
- [67:47]
C
It's Donovan Clingan.
- [67:48]
B
Yeah.
- [67:49]
C
How. How big do you think the lead is from first to second?
- [67:51]
B
Oof.
- [67:54]
A
Based on your grin here, I'm going significant.
- [67:57]
C
It's 173. That's how big.
- [68:01]
A
He probably also sees more a ton attempts too. Right.
- [68:06]
B
Because that's what it is. Yeah.
- [68:07]
C
That's. That is the other side to what we were talking about, the counterfactual thing where it's just like, there's the avoiding and maybe clinging will get to that point. But there's also the thing of, like, when you look in football, you're like, this guy got a lot of tackles. Like, good on the back. Be like, yeah, it's because your defensive line sucks. That's why you got so many. Like. I. You know what I'm saying? I don't know. There's all kinds of things like that. I don't. I'm not saying that's the case with Clingan, but that really jumped out to me. That was. That was in. His differential is pretty high too. So.
- [68:32]
A
Shouts to Clingan, are you making the case that he would be on your third team. Is that what we're saying?
- [68:38]
C
I mean, there's, there's a statistical case that you could make with a sober, straight face. And I don't think that it would be ridiculous. I mean, do you, you all think so over?
- [68:46]
B
Yeah, I don't think it'd be ridiculous. I think he will get a vote or two. Like, he'll, he'll get on some ballots. I don't think he's quite there, but yeah, it's not unreasonable.
- [68:57]
C
Right.
- [68:57]
A
I think if their overall defense was better, I think he would have a much better case. Kamara too, who's. He's been pretty, he's been like, just okay. But injuries and whatnot you could throw out there. Overall, I, I find his numbers to be startling. Like, I, I thought he's been pretty good, but some of the rim protection stuff, some of the avoidance stuff, like, yeah, like he's had a pretty breakthrough season on both ends, but he would probably miss the cut here. I didn't have him even on my like, short list of guys if I were to do a third team. But like, man, I wrote down like seven to 10 other names here. I'll just rattle some off. I've OG. OG would probably be my like last cut on a second team. I found that PR, especially considering the Knicks are eighth defensively and he's doing a lot of the work there. I had Dyson Daniels, Jaden McDaniels on here, Castle Keda, then a couple of guys who are disqualified. Caruso might be the best perimeter defender on the Thunder doesn't qualify. Hartenstein has also been very good this year. Isaiah Stewart, I'm sure I could rattle off ten other guys.
- [69:56]
B
Yeah. Lou Dorrit. I think we have to flag in the Thunder part of that too. I mean, really, the conversation with the Thunder is not if they're represented on all defense, but how many, how many times. Cause I think there's a world in which Casen and Lou both make it. I do think Lou Dord has been like a little more chaotic in a bad way this season then, then Case certainly than Cason has. And so if you're going to pick one perimeter representative to go with Chet, I would go with Kayson personally, but Lou Dort is still Ludora. Like he's still an incredible imposition with his physicality, with his gamesmanship, with like every part of what he brings to the table. Like he just gets in guys heads and I don't think you can take that away as far as this kind of impact goes.
- [70:37]
C
Yeah.
- [70:38]
A
All Right. Why don't we take one more break and we'll do all rookie teams.
- [70:41]
E
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- [71:09]
B
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- [71:28]
E
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- [71:38]
B
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- [71:41]
A
mobile.com all right, probably the best crop of all rookie team like nominees that I can remember. Like this was not a struggle of anything. I wanted four teams to put together here. First team I feel pretty good about. I have Cooper Khan, Edgecombe Harper. I assume you guys would probably have all those guys. And then I have Ace Bailey as my fifth.
- [72:02]
B
Yeah, same five for me, same five.
- [72:04]
C
Coward. Bailey's my sixth guy so I had Coward just ahead of Bailey.
- [72:09]
A
I flipped them a few times because I think Coward has had the best tape to tape season where he like he started strong, kind of dipped in the middle but has been pretty solid and consistent throughout whereas Bailey was diminished overall. And so you I don't know how much to hold that against him. And then has really popped since he's been able to play more since the all Star break. He's scoring 18 points a game and has just looked pretty dominant for a rookie at times. So I went for the highs for phrase over Coward but I could definitely see Coward here.
- [72:39]
B
I don't even think it's just highs too. Like his role was not because he wasn't good in the earlier stages of the season for the Jazz. It's just he was playing a different kind of role when everybody was out there. And so if anything I'm kind of encouraged by and impressed by his ability to do both things where when given the opportunity we've seen him be A big time like scorer and shot maker down the stretch. But he also proved he can just be like a good presence and good movement shooter and play a role and kind of know how to contribute to a slightly more veteran version of that team.
- [73:09]
C
Yeah, his highs, he's so much younger than, than Coward too. I can see I could. You could, you can argue this one in a number of ways. I just, I just think his highs being younger could. He could reach higher heights, I think than Coward. And there, you know, when you were saying the thing about the ups and the downs, I feel like all rookie more than any other category, any other discussion attached to a category, it's very like what have you done for me lately? You know, I just feel like the standards and the stakes go up so much more in all defense and all NBA and MVP and everything because if a guy starts strong and then, you know, fades a little bit, I just feel like we're a little more forgiving with rookies where. Yeah, really, maybe. And I'm, I'm guilty of it too with the Coward thing where I'm like started strong, but he's been a little better lately too. Coward has. So I don't know, we got to treat these kids differently, I guess with, with kid gloves maybe. I don't know.
- [73:55]
B
Coward is good. He's got to be, if not first team, second team. I also, I mean, there was a part of me that took a really long look at Maxime Renault for one of these spots as well. And I think in particular, don't do it.
- [74:08]
C
He's.
- [74:08]
B
He's going to do it every time. You just have to walk past it. The Dylan Harper part of this conversation I think is worth having too, where Harper is doing in some ways a little bit less by the numbers or by some measures than some of these other candidates. I do give him a slight bump because those games matter and because his role matters. It's a tricky thing with all rookie because you never want to penalize a guy for being drafted to a bad team because that happens to almost everybody in these races. But I do give a little bit of extra credit if what you're doing has actual consequence. And I think Harper is in that zone where he's not just like along for the ride with the Spurs. There are games where he's absolutely instrumental to what they're doing on offense. He's proven to be a good enough two way player as well to hold up in a, in a, you know, potentially contending rotation. All those things matter in a way that Reynaud, while very impressive in, you know, just the box score accumulation, the touch, we were just raving about him recently as far as, like, what he can be as an interior presence for the Kings. It's just not the same thing. And I think it's okay that we acknowledge that it's not the same thing, but I do want to give a shout to Maxime for the season he's had.
- [75:14]
A
Yeah, all Rookie is probably the last, like, awards race where you'll see some weird results in part because I think a lot of people will just like, like, sort by rookies and who's the biggest scorer? We'll have. We'll get the nod there. And I worry for that reason if Harper will get bumped to the second team. But if you've watched, I mean, Harper's moments have just been absolutely electric. And you're right, the stakes have just been on a completely different scale than right now, who's done a lot of his damage, basically being the only guy who cares on the Kings while they're trying to lose every game.
- [75:45]
C
Dylan Cardwell.
- [75:46]
A
Yeah, right. But I had Coward. I have Reno, who has been magnifique this season. I also have the two pals. I have fears.
- [75:55]
C
That's the thumbnail right there. Rob and I, I looked up doing the same thing.
- [76:02]
A
Fears and Queen on here and then Colin. Murray Bowles.
- [76:06]
B
Yeah, I think Murray Boyles is a good one. I did not have fears. I. I don't know. He's. He's trying. He's doing his best. He's just. He is what he is, which is at this point, like not a very productive or efficient guard. If we're, if we're being honest about it.
- [76:21]
A
It's second team, all rookie.
- [76:22]
B
It is second team, all rookie. I went. I went with Cockbrenner in that spot instead. Just like, yes, more narrow, but within that narrow capacity for the Hornets, like, does a couple of defined things pretty well.
- [76:35]
C
Lunch pail, nose for the ball.
- [76:38]
B
Let's get them all out. You know,
- [76:41]
C
I had, I had. Like I said, I had Ace right there. Honestly, I. I wish I could have a six man first team. I. I had Maxime, I had Trey Johnson, De Queen, and then Fears. I agree with you about fears. He's one of those. I always have to kind of be lobby to about the way he plays, but because I always feel like I have a blind spot for him. I had really low in our guide, like, lower than consensus. It's just going to be a cross for me to bear as his career goes on maybe I'll see the light someday. But I. For third team, I had C, Brenner, Jagor, Ugo, CMB, and then I had
- [77:13]
B
Will R on my 13's been good.
- [77:15]
C
I mean after the All Star break. Most points.
- [77:18]
B
We're clearly fans of Will Riley on this pod.
- [77:21]
A
Well, you have Trey Johnson on your second team either, Robin.
- [77:25]
B
I. Oh, interesting. I missed that part.
- [77:28]
A
Any reason Kyle?
- [77:30]
C
He could be on my third team or not on at all. I don't know. It's. I don't. I don't have a good argument for this one, to be honest.
- [77:36]
A
They all kind of crushed together at that point. You're right. The last like couple guys on second team because I also had Trey Johnson on my short list. I also had Ugo like on there until like you really get into it. It's just like you can't really rationalize it because the production especially offensively is just not there.
- [77:51]
B
Well, he's playing like 14 minutes like and these days playing even less. They're. They're good. They're important minutes for a team. Like again, that means something. But he's just not playing enough, I don't think to compete with some of these guys.
- [78:02]
C
For all rookie, it's the high usage in shit versus the low usage. Right. What rhymes with shit? And then it's lit. I don't know. It's tough. It's tough to workshopping. Can we be no bad ideas in a brainstorm? I'm on my feet here. No, I just think that's what we're going through with all these guys. I just like Harper gets the bump for being able to navigate that because he's so good. Hugo playing a small. Playing no small parts on it. You know, it's like he's.
- [78:30]
B
Yeah. While we're talking imaginary third team slash honorable mentions, I really wanted to find a place for Sion James on this list who is not like an all defense level defender, but a very good one. I also think there's a different version of the 2025, 2026 season where we probably have flying cars by now. We're more evolved as a species. The Avita Zubots trade happens earlier or maybe before the season even starts. And most importantly, Yanna Kona Niederhauser does not get injured. And then he's really, really cooking, you know, really, really pulling something together in an all rookie kind of way. But obviously it's. It did not really pan out as such.
- [79:09]
A
All right, why don't we wrap our awards there? We were just about to finish the pod and we got some pretty startling news here where Mike Malone, the ESPN analyst extraordinaire, but obviously former coach of the Denver Nuggets, is taking the North Carolina basketball job. Didn't see that one coming. Kyle, this is your neck of the woods. Did you see it?
- [79:29]
C
That's Tate's neck of the woods. That's you just rounding southern. You're just like hand waving spiritually.
- [79:34]
B
College basketball.
- [79:35]
C
Oh, y' all rednecks down there. I am doing that as long, but that's. No, you snobbish up there. Yeah, I'll hand wave that too. No, I just think, man, I think the job sitting open for as long is. Was bad for North Carolina. Like it's bad for their brand. That's college basketball talk. Let's talk about the NBA fans looking at this, his life going to be at how it'll be different in the college level. That I think is. I have concern about is how, how directly connected is he going to be to the NIL and the like interpersonal stuff that is like those two things are connected in a way where you get some separation when, when there's a general manager in a front office and things like that in the NBA level, they are like really, really mingled together in a way that is going to be challenging, I think for him. And I just don't, I don't know, man. I'm pretty. And he. Has he ever coached in college? I don't think I was worried about Billy Donovan going back and he's done it before recruiting so different. I don't doubt his ability to do like the X's and O part of it, but the managing, the, the, the roster part of it. This is a wait and see for me. I'm skeptical, so.
- [80:43]
A
Right. Because what I've been like kind of gathering from the transition to the NAL period is a lot of like college coaches, both in football and basketball are like, fuck this, I want out. This is just like an all consuming job in the way that like even the NBA where it takes like just all of your life for, for basically every month of the year in order to do the job. Like people just don't want to deal with that because it's just, just the
- [81:06]
C
basketball part takes your life.
- [81:08]
B
Yeah.
- [81:08]
A
Yes, yes, yes. And so I'm surprised that someone with NBA experience would go back there. Maybe he wasn't getting enough looks on the NBA side for whatever reason. He didn't get a job in most previous cycle. So I don't know. But like, man, they were talking. I mean they were going after like Dusty May and some of like the high end NCAA guys and they all got turned down. The Arizona guy as well. This is pretty stunning. I thought they would just pick up the, the like the star guy from like Northern Arizona or whatever and do that route. But man, that, that's wild.
- [81:39]
B
I mean if you're gonna pick somebody from the kind of like NBA world, Michael Malone might be just the kind of sicko who would want more work on top of his work. Like I could see him talking himself into that part of the nil experience. I also think if you're a prospective NBA coach or hoping to break back in after getting fired or let go from your last job, this is a particularly tough time to do it because of all this tanking stuff. Like when you think about who the worst teams in the league right now are right now, like Jason Kidd, for better or worse, is like pretty entrenched. Rick Carlisle pretty entrenched. The jobs that would be potentially open if you are a coach looking for to get on this next cycle, I would think would be maybe the Sacramento Kings if they decide to let go of Doug Christie. Guess what? Michael Mullen doesn't want that job.
- [82:21]
C
I don't think that's going to happen.
- [82:22]
B
That will literally never happen. Other than that Chicago, if Billy Donovan decides to move on, although he was reportedly linked to this North Carolina job. So why would he want to do that? Like why would he move to some other college, some lower level college, potentially from an NBA job? I don't know. Doc Rivers in a post Giannis existence? I don't know that I would necessarily want to sign up for that. I haven't heard any rumblings that like Brian Keefe is in danger in Washington or anything like that. So it's like, where are the openings even going to come? Unless somebody just flames out spectacularly in the playoffs and a Michael Malone could jump into, you know, IME Udoka's job or something like that.
- [83:00]
A
Well, you're right. It's just a different job now too. A lot of these teams are starting from scratch and if they don't already have someone entrenched, they want someone to build them up. Which is why a lot of these teams go younger. Jordan is, I think, a prime example of like why you go that route.
- [83:13]
B
Yep.
- [83:14]
A
But man, that's stunning. He hasn't been in College since 2001 when he was an assistant at Manhattan.
- [83:22]
B
Slightly different college landscape over the last 20, you know, 25 years.
- [83:26]
A
Oh, I mean they just don't make him like Dan Hurley everywhere else, you know?
- [83:29]
B
Oh, yeah, I know. Who's gonna. How is Michael Mullen's headbutting game?
- [83:36]
A
Quite good. Yeah. All right, why don't we wrap it there? We'll come back with our individual awards on Thursday. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Thursday. And go Huskies.
- [83:52]
C
Not really.
- [83:53]
A
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