Derek Strong (2:36)

But okay.

Justin Ferrier (2:37)

No, nothing like that.

Rob Mahoney (2:38)

Rob.

Derek Strong (2:38)

I don't know if we do.

Rob Mahoney (2:39)

I don't know if you've ever Been to Connecticut, but it's not a howly vibe up there. No, no, not at all.

Derek Strong (2:45)

Minneapolis.

Justin Ferrier (2:46)

We're not as feral as perhaps the. The Minnesotans have it, but. And especially because a lot of the Yukon women's fans tend to be older folks like my parents. Die hard Yukon fans for both teams, but more so for the women just because they're used to steamroll and everything. And I guess it's civic pride and something that's just so excellent that you got to get behind, but they're daily watchers of this. I pop in for the title game and maybe the semifinals.

Derek Strong (3:12)

I mean, you're showing up on Christmas and Easter basically and calling yourself a fan. How does it feel, though, Justin, to be part of an institution? You know, you are effectively like a Yankees fan or something like that. Like, how does it feel to be identified in that particular way?

Justin Ferrier (3:27)

Don't like it. Used to be in the scrappy underdog. You know, that's how I feel on this podcast with you guys. And so I don't feel like being a top dog reflects like my true self. So I have to really. You ease into it. I mean, even. Even putting on the hat during these times, I feel like, you know, did I. Did I earn it? I don't know. You are. I'll take the victory lab.

Rob Mahoney (3:47)

He's got the essence of a valparaiso, is what he's saying. He's living the life of a blue blood.

Derek Strong (3:54)

Well, congratulations. Congratulations though, Justin.

Justin Ferrier (3:56)

We're.

Derek Strong (3:56)

We're very happy for you.

Justin Ferrier (3:57)

Thank you. I appreciate it. Sarah Strong, awesome. Paige Beckers. Also awesome. Ezzy Fudd, if I got her name right. Also awesome. So really good team. Can't wait to see some of those guys coming back next season.

Rob Mahoney (4:10)

Gino. Or not so much awesome. His vibe just. Just rubs me the wrong way. Like, he started his press conference and he said, I gotta say, in the 40 years since I've been doing this, I've never seen so many women covering our sport. And I'm just so proud of it whenever somebody starts a sentence with I gotta say, you know, they're full of shit, so.

Justin Ferrier (4:36)

Well, so you don't like that he's an ally?

Rob Mahoney (4:39)

I mean, look, I love ally shit, but Gino Ariema just strikes me as just a poser. But whatever. That's neither here nor there.

Derek Strong (4:46)

One of the. One of the most entrenched coaches in women's basketball.

Rob Mahoney (4:50)

Poser, poser, poser.

Derek Strong (4:52)

All right.

Justin Ferrier (4:52)

He makes. He makes a mean pasta sauce. I don't know if you guys ever Had Gino's ragu, basically. But he makes it himself and they sell it around Connecticut.

Derek Strong (5:01)

Sure, I'll take your word for it.

Justin Ferrier (5:03)

How can you be mad at a pasta maker?

Derek Strong (5:05)

I mean, are you. Are you using jarred pasta sauce?

Justin Ferrier (5:09)

Yeah, I don't eat a lot of pasta because I can't afford the extra carbs. What? You making it yourself?

Rob Mahoney (5:15)

What are you talking about? You just throw a freaking jar of ragu in the pot and just call it a day.

Derek Strong (5:22)

You really are an animal. You're more feral than you described.

Justin Ferrier (5:26)

Wait, what's the difference between like a store brand, like the rows or whatever? Vers Rao. Yeah, Rao's versus what you're talking about.

Derek Strong (5:36)

You're like making up ingredients in the pot.

Rob Mahoney (5:40)

You buy canned tomatoes.

Justin Ferrier (5:42)

This is America, man.

Rob Mahoney (5:43)

We're just buying some onions, garlic.

Justin Ferrier (5:46)

I don't have time for that. I'm doing my all NBA ballots all weekend. I don't have time for that.

Derek Strong (5:50)

Okay, that's fair.

Justin Ferrier (5:52)

Why don't we pivot now to what were we going to do on this podcast as opposed to the five minutes on women's basketball? For whatever reason, we're going to shop up our awards picks because that is the time of year that we are in. We're going to hand out some fake awards. Rob has an actual ballot. Woz and I still waiting for that email from the NBA. What's going on, guys?

Rob Mahoney (6:09)

I got my eye on you. Adam Silver.

Justin Ferrier (6:11)

That's right. We could probably figure out your email address. We won't send you an email, but just know that we could if we wanted to. We're going to do full awards on Thursday. We're going to do the team awards today. All NBA, all defense, and unfortunately all rookie. We're going to. We're going to slog through on the back of this podcast. Let's start with all NBA. And I think we have to start kind of big picture because this is the first year where I feel like the restrictions put in the games play, the minutes limits have really affected who is going to be on my ballot. We're so just to remind people, 65 game limit for the awards. There's also a weird minutes cap, right, Rob?

Derek Strong (6:51)

There is. Fans of the NBA may remember this coming into play last season with Dante Divincenzo's most improved player case, where despite the fact that I think he played 81 games, he was somehow ineligible for award voting. The actual rule is this. You got to play 65 games in order to qualify for any of the major awards, excepting the rookie awards, those, as far as I know, do not have a minutes limit, do not have a games played limit. Now, in order to play a game that counts as one of the 65, the player has to play 20 plus minutes in that game. And there's a slight grace in which the league allows you two games in which you've played 15 to 20 minutes. All of which is to say the bare minimum games at least 63 games played with 20 plus minutes and two games played with at least 15 minutes. If you're over those thresholds, congratulations, you've solved the puzzle. You're awarded some kind of prize. In this case, a place on our fake ballot if you're good enough. But it's a mess. This whole thing is a mess.

Rob Mahoney (7:46)

And whose life is benefited by this?

Derek Strong (7:49)

I don't know.

Rob Mahoney (7:51)

Okay, thanks the viewers.

Justin Ferrier (7:55)

In order to force players, Kawhi Leonard, load management guys, in order to try to play as many as possible, not probably try to work the fringes in order to be eligible for awards, but sit on a bunch of games. That's the theory as I understand it at least. But I didn't even know the difference between the 63 and the random two games that you get a reprieve from that why 63 versus 65, that arbitrary endpoint is the thing that I constantly struggle with.

Derek Strong (8:19)

Well, they're all arbitrary endpoints. It's also not a coincidence that you're now looking at total games played for the season. You're seeing a lot of stars with 66ish games played, you know, just squeaking over the threshold of what they're allowed because of injuries and rest and random absences for other reasons. So I don't like that we're here. And if, yeah, if the point is to get players to play, you're going to see more of what you saw last season with Tyrese Halliburton where he pushed himself to the point of maybe exacerbating an injury in order to hit some of those thresholds. If the point is to make it easier for voters who don't have to weigh, oh, this guy played 40 games. That guy played 80 games. Guess what? I'm combing through game logs to see who played 19 minutes in a game. Our lives are not improved in any material way. I don't think the players lives are improved in any material way. And I don't know that the fans are being better served by these guys trying to tough it out to hit 65 games instead of, let's say, 59 games.

Justin Ferrier (9:10)

I would like to see us get to 60 as the line of demarcation because 65, I feel like there are too many guys in the margin for error. I think Jalen Brunson.

Rob Mahoney (9:19)

Is it 65 or is it 63?

Derek Strong (9:21)

Guys? It's both.

Justin Ferrier (9:23)

It's both. This is like my, my taxes at this point. I just checking columns. I gotta go to form B to figure out form Z. Okay, so Jalen Brunson, for instance, he has 62 games played as we're recording this. He came back on Sunday. I have to assume that wasn't a coincidence. He has four more games to play. Three more games in order to be eligible. Kevin Durant, another instance I think we could talk about a little later on. He has four more games to play. Four. Correct. Or something.

Derek Strong (9:55)

He also needs to play three games.

Justin Ferrier (9:57)

I believe four to three. Yes. So if he doesn't suit up within the next two games, he's out.

Derek Strong (10:03)

And he's been out with an ankle injury for about a week at this point. This is around the targeted time that he was supposed to come back. But the Suns are also on the cusp of being formally eliminated from the play in race. And so is Kevin Durant, who we know loves to hoop, just going to roll out there and play because he wants to play and maybe to qualify for awards? I don't know.

Justin Ferrier (10:21)

Yeah, I would like to see it be pushed back just a little bit to get some of these guys that we're talking about in. Because you're right, if we're even in the vicinity of a guy like Durant having to force his way into a game and potentially like suffering longer term injury, that's a problem.

Derek Strong (10:36)

Yeah.

Justin Ferrier (10:37)

So we'll get to Durant when we get there. So let's just start from the top. I have to assume that this is consensus in the top five.

Derek Strong (10:45)

Well, top four, I think. Five. There's some room for conversation.

Rob Mahoney (10:48)

No, top five is consensus.

Justin Ferrier (10:51)

I think so. But I assume you guys have in the top four. Jokic, Shay, Gilders, Alexander, Giannis, Jason Tatum. Right.

Derek Strong (10:58)

Done, done, done, done. Yes.

Justin Ferrier (11:00)

Can I just.

Derek Strong (11:01)

We should say we're going to talk more about these guys when we circle back to the MVP race. For now, they're such easy inclusions for all NBA. I, I think their cases are pretty open and shut for this.

Justin Ferrier (11:11)

I will just say though, there is a player amidst this four who is averaging basically 31, 12 and 6 and he will not get a single first place MVP vote because he doesn't deserve one. He doesn't. But it's just so wild where we are in terms of the MVP conversation. It feels like there are just so many good choices that a guy who in any other year, like five years ago would have been the easy choice is not going to get a single bout first pace battle. That's insane.

Rob Mahoney (11:41)

So similar. And we're talking about Giannis in case the listener doesn't know he's having a career year. Like, he's got like a 30 per. It's like insane. All of his stats. Jayson Tatum, to my mind, has never been better. It's obviously so. And again, he's not going to get a sniff of first place MVP love. And that's just the nature of what Shai Gilgeous Alexander and what Nikola Jokic have done this year. What they've put on the floor is just nothing short of spectacular.

Justin Ferrier (12:11)

Yep. So this fifth spot, I have Donovan Mitchell. Who do you guys have? I do, too.

Derek Strong (12:18)

I do, too.

Justin Ferrier (12:19)

Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (12:19)

Stephen Curry, let's go.

Justin Ferrier (12:22)

Okay.

Rob Mahoney (12:23)

It's just the last month and a half, man. Pretty much since the Jimmy trade, this guy has just had a different pep and his step, and he just looks incredible. Like this stretch of games where they're beating the Lakers, they're beating the, like, a bunch of teams that are in front of a beating Memphis to, like, climb up the seating, and they're doing it on Steph Curry's back. It's just like, yo, this guy to me is clearly, you know, my all NBA pick. Like Donovan Mitchell, again, he's having a great season. He's not better than Steph Curry. I just could not make that argument at all. So, yeah, Steph Curry is my first team.

Derek Strong (13:04)

Well, I think we're getting into the gist of what we're actually debating here, which is, Justin, I don't want to speak for you. I'm not saying Donovan Mitchell is better than Steph Curry. I'm not prepared to make that argument. Do I think Donovan Mitchell has had a better and more impactful season than Steph Curry? I do. I actually do. And some of that, granted, if Jimmy Butler had been a Warrior the whole season. I think this conversation goes very differently, and you're very right, was to point out the way that the guardrails have come off with Stephen. And that was a team that was seemingly terrified of running Stefan to the ground for the first half of the season, and rightly so. And now that they have Jimmy, it's like, oh, we can just let Steph be Steph. Not only do we have an extra facilitator and scorer on the floor is making his life easier. We just don't have to hold him back in the same way. And we. We see what Steph can be. We know what Steph can be. Donovan Mitchell, though, I just think in terms of driving one of the best teams in the league, the best offensive player on the best offensive team overall for the season. That's a meaningful accomplishment. And it's a meaningful accomplishment, both as we've talked about in what Mitchell is doing and what he's pulling back in the way he's facilitating winning, in the way he's opening things up for his teammates. He's aggressive exactly when he needs to be, and to my eye, like, basically exactly the right amount. And I think that's worth rewarding.

Justin Ferrier (14:18)

Yeah, I agree with Rob. I think we get into this debate, most years we've done this, and we've done this a few years now, where Woz is typically advocating for the best player. Rob and I tend to, I think, align ourselves with the best season or like the. The resume on paper as opposed to the quality of the player. And I think Mitchell has also been more consistent throughout the year. Steph was taking off back to backs, and he just wasn't as.

Rob Mahoney (14:42)

Steph had a nasty January. His January was brutal.

Justin Ferrier (14:47)

There are more duds now. You can argue Mitchell had more help in that regard. And seeing the help obviously kick Stephen to a different gear. But I just think if you're looking at the entire body of work, like, the Cavs have been awesome this entire season, and Mitchell was one of, if not the reason for that, to me.

Derek Strong (15:03)

The go ahead was.

Rob Mahoney (15:04)

I just think the Cavs success has felt like a more collective effort than a Donovan Mitchell driven. Not that he's not like, probably their most impactful players, specifically on. I don't see. I don't even think he's their most impactful player. I think that's Mobley. But like, I think on offense, which is the most important part of the side of the ball, yes, he's definitely the driver of their offense, but I just don't think he has the same level of impact game to game that Steph Curry does. That's just for me. Steph Curry is the definition of all NBA first team. And Donovan Mitchell, he's on my second team. I didn't forget about the guy. But I think Steph Curry, and y'all know how I am. I'm always gonna defer to the old head before the little young upstarts. Even though Donovan Mitchell's been in the league for like 10 years.

Derek Strong (15:53)

He's not an upstart anymore.

Rob Mahoney (15:54)

Steph Curry's 37 years old. Like he's, you know, I, I'm just been blown away by what he's done basically since the trade.

Derek Strong (16:03)

I'm going to be honest, I did not really think of Steph for this spot. Steph to me was a, a clear open and shut second team case. And my decision point Justin was Donovan Mitchell for the last spot or Evan Mobley who was mentioned. We're kind of trying to debate who's more important to the Cavs success, who's bringing more to the table. And LeBron James, I think, has a case for the last first team spot. So that was kind of my. If I'm splitting that fifth spot and trying to figure out who goes there, those were the three guys I was really looking at.

Justin Ferrier (16:31)

So you didn't consider Anthony Edwards for first team?

Derek Strong (16:34)

Not for that spot, no.

Justin Ferrier (16:36)

Considering that the, the second half that the Wolves have had kind of similar story with Steph where they've turned it on within the past two months or so. And statistically I think he's right up there with Mitchell, if you want to go there. I didn't, I consider Mobley as well. I didn't really consider LeBron for first team, although all three of those guys are on my second team. Make the case for LeBron.

Derek Strong (16:59)

I think with LeBron. Look, first, first, I want to say him making the team at 40 would be such a special accomplishment. That's not a reason to give it to him, but it's something that's in the air. As we're talking through this stuff as the ballots are going in, I think there's going to be an interesting narrative push for LeBron and the accomplishment given his age in his season. Overall, I just think he's been unbelievable and unbelievable in a way that similar to the Donovan Mitchell case. It's as much about him being LeBron and the moments where he's being something different from what we're accustomed to, where he doesn't have to domineer possessions, where he doesn't have his fingers on every single thing, where he is setting up other guys in interesting ways and kind of picking his spots with a perfect balance. I think given his skill set. And we've seen over the course of the season, we've seen Lebron the point guard. We've seen Lebron giving room for Austin Reeves to cook. We've seen LeBron giving room for Luka Doncic to Cook. I Think overall, having the kind of talent that lets you toggle between those things pretty seamlessly is a really strong all NBA case. The production is always there with LeBron. The defense, I would say, has been there when the Lakers are at their best and certainly has been there when it matters. Like in the flashes, attention points in games, he absolutely shows up defensively. And so when you zoom out, that's a pretty comprehensive body of work. Right. You're making other players better, you're producing at an all NBA first team level and you're pushing a team that, given both versions of the Lakers we've seen this season, the pre trade and the post trade Luca version don't really have any like case to be the third best team in the Western Conference or in the third seed in the Western Conference. And yet here we are, you know, coming down the end of the season and they're right there with everybody else.

Justin Ferrier (18:39)

My favorite thing with LeBron is to look at his positional designation for the given season on Basketball Reference, which is probably just algorithmic as something that it spits out based on who he's playing with. Because LeBron is all things all the time. Right. But I think it does speak to how he has filled gaps depending on who he's playing around. And for the Lakers group dating back to 2018, 19, he is a small forward, point guard, point guard, center, power forward, power forward, small forward. He's basically run the gamut at this point just because they've needed him to do things. And there's been slight inflections where he's like led the league in assists one year. He played more defective small ball center because of injuries one year. And those are the more extreme cases. But LeBron can do all of it. I kind of dinged him because of earlier in the season. I think his defense was a real big concern. It was about a month plus where he really wasn't there. And he was kind of like picking and choosing cherry picking a little bit. He wasn't giving his all all the time. And so we're looking at the entire spectrum of the season. Why it probably leaned on Mitchell over even an Edwards or a Steph Curry. That's why I wouldn't have LeBron there. But I have LeBron on the second team, which I didn't expect earlier this year. I thought he might be third team, which I think is where he ended up last year. The fact that he's doing this at 40 is unbelievable.

Derek Strong (19:49)

Yeah. Do we want to zoom out and say individually what our second team Ballots are.

Justin Ferrier (19:53)

Yeah, sure. Why don't you go Rob?

Derek Strong (19:56)

So I have LeBron and Steph as we mentioned. Evan Mobley is also second team for me. My last two are Anthony Edwards and Tyrese Haliburton for second team all NBA.

Justin Ferrier (20:05)

Shocking. Tyrese Alberton, second very good player it turns out.

Rob Mahoney (20:10)

My second. He said my Second team is LeBron, Anthony Edwards, Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley and Carl Anthony Towns.

Justin Ferrier (20:21)

Okay, I have Edwards, Brunson, Curry, Mobley, LeBron.

Derek Strong (20:26)

Nice.

Justin Ferrier (20:27)

I sort. We.

Derek Strong (20:29)

We have identified. Yeah. Like that last spot. I have exactly those three guys I like. I think it's Ant, I think it's Brunson, I think it's Towns and I will say maybe a fourth guy. I think Jaren Jackson Jr. Has a place in that conversation as well. And probably we'll get on some second team ballots but we're, we're representing the fundamental dilemma here.

Justin Ferrier (20:46)

Yeah. Can we talk about Ant quickly just cause we zoom past him. He's someone that I, I seriously consider for the first team spot. Like I mentioned before, have two stats for you. So after all the like oh, Ant needs to be more of a playmaker. Like we're trading Karl Anthony Towns because we're going to empower Anthony Edwards. His assists are actually down this year 5.1 to 4.6. Notable because he's had to have some more Mike Conley like hand holding going on there. Obviously Julius Randall has played a role in that as well. But on the flip side, there are three other players in NBA history who have attempted 10 or more threes a game who have shot 40% or higher from three. Those three players are. Klay Thompson did it once, Damian Lillard did it twice and Steph Curry did it three seven times. Seven times for Steph Curry. But now Anthony Edwards is the fourth because he's at 40%. I think he's shooting like 10.3 a game. Like the fact that he has just become a volume three point shooter at the highest level almost by will. It was just like I'm going to go do this, I'm going to take a lot of threes. I'm going to be fucking incredible at. It has been a revelation.

Derek Strong (21:54)

Yeah. We're old enough to remember when the ding on Anthony Edwards was that he was settling for too many jump shots. And then the ding even earlier this season was that his offense was 23 point centric despite the fact that it was gummed up and everyone was sitting in the lane for him. Like amazing season as far as the three point shooting goes. Amazing Season as far as getting to the line, which is such an underrated thing with ant that I think stabilizes the way Minnesota plays overall. Also has just played an absolute fuckton of minutes. And when we're talking about star impact, like, I don't, I don't want to split hairs, you know, like guys are going to miss games, guys are going to ebb and flow in terms of what they're, what they're bringing to the table, how much they're able to contribute. But if you're playing at a star level over a huge minutes load, you're naturally going to have a really profound impact on the way any team plays an ant, unlike guys like Jalen Brunson, unlike guys like Kat is a legit two way star. Right. Like, isn't a driver of offense in a creative way and he's showing up defensively. Just a huge feather in his cap that I think has to factor into these conversations.

Rob Mahoney (22:51)

Yeah, and I think the improvements that he's made this year are like, kind of subtle too. Um, you know, he's had to get smarter about dealing with the extra attention that comes with, you know, not having Carl Towns as a pressure release valve. And I think on his drives, man, like, I don't know that he showed up in the numbers, but he's just way more balanced and like, it feels more, I don't know, threatening when he drives now. Whereas like earlier in his career he would be just so off kilter on his drives and like, you know, as athletic that he is, it felt like his finishing was kind of lagging behind. But now I think like, man, when he's driving, it's with a purpose and like, he could pass that thing out when he's in the mood too, or he's just straight up finishing over, you know, the trees out there. So I think that's been some of the nicer improvements throughout the course of the season because this wasn't happening in November. Okay. Like, it's been a gradual thing and so it's cool to see this guy like, you know, making nice tweaks in season to, to his attack.

Justin Ferrier (23:55)

So none of you guys had Brunson on your second team, correct?

Derek Strong (23:58)

Not quite.

Justin Ferrier (23:59)

Yeah, I did. Why did you guys. You had him on third team, I assume, or I do.

Rob Mahoney (24:06)

I'm not going to lie. I was confused as to whether he was eligible or not.

Derek Strong (24:10)

Yeah, he has a borderline case because.

Rob Mahoney (24:13)

Of all of the games missed. So like, I guess he would. Yeah, he would be my third team either way, man. Just town's playing so many more games than him.

Justin Ferrier (24:22)

Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (24:22)

And being the most important offensive player for the Knicks, especially in those games where Brunson's not around, I would have lean Towns anyway.

Justin Ferrier (24:30)

Basically how I did this is I put in Brunson and eventually Kevin Durant to spoil that. And I'm just going to assume that, like, when they get taken out, I will take them out. I have replacements lined up for them, but for now, I just did it almost as if both were going to be eligible. But, Rob, you had Towns on second team and not Brunson or.

Derek Strong (24:47)

No, I have. No, I have neither on second team. Yeah. I have Tyrese Halliburton in the spot that you guys have Towns or Brunson.

Justin Ferrier (24:53)

Why don't you. Why don't you explain that one?

Derek Strong (24:57)

I mean, let me start here. As good as he's ever been, if we're being honest, I think the Pacers are an elite offensive team. He is the single factor that makes that so no one on the roster can replicate what he does because no guard in the league can replicate what. What he does. I think his impact on overall offense ultimately is even more significant than Jalen Brunson's. Like, those are two guards that are. Are easy to kind of. Okay, what do these guys do together? One of them is one of the most advanced playmakers in the league. One of them is driving not just the flow of offense, but the direction of that offense, setting guys up, finding them opportunities. Brunson is great. Then his natural bent being score first, and he's great at that. Just like preposterously efficient for a player his size. If we're being honest with Jalen Brunson, I think it's just a little more limiting in a way that the Knicks have to actively confront. Right. Like, that's the reason you go get Carl Anthony Towns in the first place is in part because Brunson is the size that he is and he plays the style that he does, and that style will run up against a certain kind of wall. Halliburton has his version of that, which I think is his one on one creation, specifically in terms of generating his own shot. I think he's gotten better at those things over the course of the year. I think the Pacers have been just shot out of a cannon since late December, early January, specifically, and their rise overall through the back part of the season, I find very compelling. I find Halliburton's case to be incredibly compelling.

Justin Ferrier (26:14)

I just.

Derek Strong (26:14)

I don't see how this isn't One of the best offensive players in the world.

Rob Mahoney (26:17)

So. So here's the thing. There's a tension between watching Halliburton and just observing his actual on court impact. Like, just look at any of all of his numbers. Like all of the numbers suggest that this is a dominant player. Like, you just don't.

Derek Strong (26:36)

So does the watching of the game. Nah, nah, I just, I disagree. I just fund this is the thing. Like, if you're watching Tyrese Halliburton and your hang up is like, oh, it's a one on one situation. There's two minutes left in the game.

Rob Mahoney (26:50)

Beat anybody.

Derek Strong (26:50)

You need a bucket. I think he's gotten a little better at it, but I take your point. Like, he's not Jalen Brunson in that regard. In a go get our team a bucket on this possession scenario. That's not. That's not his game. That's not what a strong suit. That's not how he wants to play. If you take the game in totality and the runs that he enables and the leads that he builds so that the Pacers don't have to be in that position. I mean, like, look at the record. Like, these teams are in comparable positions.

Justin Ferrier (27:15)

Slaps.

Rob Mahoney (27:18)

I don't know what. I'm laughing because he's right. It's just true. Like, in terms of the way the Pacers play is definitely Halliburton driven. Like, it's his vision of. Of basketball being implemented the entire game. Like, there's no two ways about it. Like, he puts his stamp on every single game. It's just, I don't know, there's just something about watching it. I'm telling y'all, it just doesn't feel like I'm watching, you know, like in a way that, like back when J Kid was in his prime, he wasn't dropping 30. He wasn't some one on one killer. But if, like, I don't know, you felt J. Kidd's dominance on a possession to possession basis at his best. And I think J. Kidd is kind of his closest comp in terms of like, this guy will just impose a style of basketball on every single game that he's in. And I don't think Rob is wrong. It's just for my personal. Maybe that's why Adam Silver won't give me a real ballot, my personal ballot. He's my third team. He's just not on my second team.

Justin Ferrier (28:23)

Okay. I don't want to spoil where I have him because, you know, I don't think he's going to like it. You have him on eighth team, maybe eighth, maybe 18th. I think. I do think this does probably come down to stylistic preferences to a certain degree. It does sound like Rob just leans into the fact that he's a conductor. And more the more so than what Woznia are saying where we like the raw cold efficiency of Bronson being able to get you a bucket. I think for Halburn, admittedly there's some like latent just playoff effect going on here where it's hard to shake the visions of him not being able to shake his defender in order to get into the paint.

Derek Strong (29:00)

What, what series was that in when those problems came up?

Justin Ferrier (29:03)

Both.

Derek Strong (29:04)

I'm like they went on a massive run in the playoffs because of.

Rob Mahoney (29:08)

He was not good. He was not good against the Knicks. He had some good games in a seven game series. He was not good against the Knicks.

Derek Strong (29:13)

I'm not saying it was his best moment. I like I, I think this version of Halliburton that is playing right now is the best version of Halliburton we've seen to date and exciting.

Justin Ferrier (29:21)

Well that that's part of it as well though. This version right now over the past half of the season. Yes, earlier in the season, pretty similar results. I think we're talking about consistency and I do think a lot of what's driving my ballot is guys who have done it over the course of the season not necessarily popped in certain moments. Halliburton and the Pacers in totality have been better in the second half than they have in the first half. In the first half Halliburton was pretty rough at times. He has completely rewrited the ship there. But even like the Pacers, their offense over the course of the season, not necessarily scintillating. This isn't last year's Pacers where they're threatening or breaking offensive records. They have been good. I think they're seventh on offense right now. And so yeah like in comparison to like the Knicks who like I think if they had been fully healthy would have probably been one or two with the Bullet. I think they're kind of in the same range with the basers at this point. That's why I have Brunson over Halliburton. I have considered Halliburton. He's in the mix for some of my last spots. But obviously I think differently about how it's true.

Derek Strong (30:16)

We all have our flaws, Justin. Like I appreciate you acknowledging that this is really a hang up for you on a personal level when it comes.

Justin Ferrier (30:22)

Down to the Indiana Mount Rushmore. Is it like Leslie Knope, Reggie Miller, Caitlin Cooper, and you.

Derek Strong (30:32)

Why. Why would I be on it and I not Tyrese Halliburton.

Justin Ferrier (30:35)

Do you. Do you get consideration there just because it seems like you're an advocate for. For the state in the city. Well, you have a key to the city. Just like what's underneath your shirt right there.

Derek Strong (30:46)

Am I prepared to also make a Pascal Siakam honorable mention case? I am. You know, this is. I just have a lot of respect for what the Pacers do and the way they play.

Justin Ferrier (30:55)

Okay, let's. Let's go to third team because I think we covered everything. Evan Mobley, we talked at length about it in our Cavs pod. So if you want to hear 40 minutes plus on Evan Mobley, I suggest go listening to that. Was wanting to hit us with your third team.

Rob Mahoney (31:08)

So, yeah, again, I got a little confused with the eligibility stuff, but I have Garland, Jaren Jackson, Halliburton, kd. And now you guys have convinced me to replace Cade with Brunson. So Brunson, because he is eligible, but I had kd, who's barely eligible too. This is all just so cooked. Um, yeah. Garland, Jackson, Halliburton, KD and Brunson.

Derek Strong (31:41)

Nice. I'm glad to see Garland getting some love. I could not.

Rob Mahoney (31:44)

Cade is my. My first next man up.

Derek Strong (31:47)

Your next in for sure. I, Brunson and Towns, who we've already discussed. Jaren Jackson Jr. Has to be on this team. Yeah, I have Kade Cunningham. I also have KD in that last spot. I'm flexing him out. If he is not eligible for Jalen Williams, that would be my alternate.

Justin Ferrier (32:04)

Okay, so I have.

Derek Strong (32:05)

Jaren Jackson was already shaking his head. He's already out on Jalen Williams. We'll get to it.

Justin Ferrier (32:09)

We'll get to it. Jaren Jackson, Cade Towns. I have KD in for now, but I presume we'll have to come up with a replacement. And with my last spot, I have Jalen Williams, who I'll be honest, don't feel great about. So if anyone wants to convince me otherwise, especially coming off the 4 for 14 performance against the Lakers the other night, which practically underline every concern you have about him now and in the playoffs. Like, not the best time to be doing this, but that's why I have.

Derek Strong (32:35)

I want to say this. I love Jalen Williams. Love his game. Be a big fan of everything that the Thunder have done this season. The reason we are talking about him as an all NBA candidate is because here is a partial List of guys who are not eligible this year. Luka Doncic, Victor Wembanyama, Kawhi Leonard, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, Zion Williamson, Jimmy Butler, Paolo and Franz, Joel Embiid, Paul George, Tyrese Maxey, et cetera, et cetera. Like, they're just so many guys, Damon Lillard crazy. Who just are not in the mix because they have not played enough games. And this is how Jalen Williams might get an all NBA spot. Not that he's not a really good player and potentially deserving in his own way, given the field, but he's not Luka Doncic, he's not Victor Webanyama, and those guys are not eligible to get spots. So someone like Jalen Williams will.

Rob Mahoney (33:19)

Yeah, the reason why I got Garland ahead of a guy like Jalen Williams is again, like Donovan Mitchell, like the de emphasis that he's taken on this year. It's Garland doing a lot of the ball handling and, you know, the distribution and stuff like that. Like, he's just been one of the best point guards in the entire NBA. And so, yeah, for me, that guy like has way more of an imprint on what the Cavs are doing than J Dub does with, you know, with okc. And that's because Shay is so heliocentric. Like, it is what it is. Like, the guy's incredible at it. He's probably definitely going to win the mvp. Like, there's something to the idea that he can even win the mvp. You know, it's because these other guys around him are not as integral to shaping, you know, the excellence of okc. And so, yeah, like, Jalen Williams not making my team. Maybe in the future, kid. I mean, Garland working hard. We'll consider you.

Derek Strong (34:14)

Garland is sick and again, I would love to find room for him. I just, I couldn't quite get there with a third Cav, even relative to some of these alternatives. I mean, the Thunder have had as dominant or more dominant season in their own right.

Rob Mahoney (34:28)

These dudes just stand around and take a standstill. 3. I'm not. I'm not rewarding these cats. I'm sorry, here's.

Derek Strong (34:35)

Here's the difference. Yes, I. J Dub is a very different role.

Rob Mahoney (34:38)

Yeah, he's different. He actually puts it on the deck and does stuff. Yes, I get that.

Derek Strong (34:42)

Also a crucial part of the J Dub case. Not to get ahead of ourselves. He's on my second team, all defense. And if you're an all defensive level player and a second supporting star now, now we're starting to get somewhere, right? Like, now you get a max contract.

Rob Mahoney (34:57)

You get a max.

Derek Strong (34:59)

Maybe you all, maybe you also get all NBA. I think all defense like a second supporting star. Versatility, actual production. Now we're we really have something to, to come to the committee with to say, okay, Jalen Williams versus Darius Garland, Jalen Williams versus Alper and Shangun. Jalen Williams versus James Harden, whoever you want to compare him to for this last spot, I think he has a really compelling case.

Rob Mahoney (35:20)

I just think the J Dub stuff is very premature in terms of the hype and the adulation. And I'm just like even all star this heels like this kid's not on my all star team. Like I like I get it. Oh what OK KC is doing is amazing and we want to reward some of these guys. But like in terms of like possession of possession. I I'm sorry. He just doesn't do the stuff that Garland does. He doesn't.

Justin Ferrier (35:44)

I think so. I think you could look at it two ways. One, you could say the fact that he played center for a month plus might be the sort of flashy calling card in a way that's helping me overwrite some other players. Dry your child.

Woz (35:56)

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Justin Ferrier (37:23)

Particular, where it's like, you got J.

Rob Mahoney (37:26)

Dub over Tyler Tyrese Halliburton.

Justin Ferrier (37:29)

Well, yes, because this is the other side of Justin. I think that the Thunder are going to go down as one of the best teams in NBA history. And just because a lot of his value is coming from defense as opposed to offense. Like, I think we're easily writing that off. Like, for instance, with, with the warriors and the prime years. Like, would you not put Klay Thompson on one of these lists just because he plays off Stephen Draymond? Like, it seems like you have to reward the totality of the. Of the contributions to a historically good team. And I think J Dub is a very good offensive player. Clearly the number two in that team. Definitely lacking in ways that we've talked about at length and will again in the playoffs. But I think, like, his defensive impact is pretty considerable. And in fact, like, compared to a lot of the guys I have on my 13 other than Jaren Jackson Jr. Blows all those guys out the door. Cunningham, Towns, Durant, to a certain extent better defender, but doesn't have that sort of impact that JDub does.

Rob Mahoney (38:22)

JDub's not having a better season than Cade Cunningham.

Justin Ferrier (38:25)

I have, I have.

Derek Strong (38:27)

Nor Tyrese Halliburton. See, I love this is like, I'm with Justin on J Dub island here, but I'm against him on Halliburton Island. So like the tree, the treaties are in conflict. I don't know what to do about it.

Rob Mahoney (38:38)

Justin hates Tyrese Halliburton. There's just no two ways about.

Justin Ferrier (38:42)

I just value guys that play well. An entire season worth of data and games. I was out here watching Hornets games in October. I don't know where everyone else was, but I account for that stuff.

Derek Strong (38:59)

This is a preposterous case.

Rob Mahoney (39:02)

He's so principled. That's what's happening here.

Derek Strong (39:07)

If I can talk out of both sides of my mouth here a little bit on JDub.

Justin Ferrier (39:11)

That's podcasting, baby.

Derek Strong (39:12)

That is podcasting. There's one little statistical quirk I would say in J Dub's case and also in LeBron's case, that I don't know how to reconcile. I don't know if anyone out there knows how to reconcile, which is that their teams have been quite good when they aren't on the floor. And so the on off splits, which can be very, very slippery. I'm not saying this is a damning element to either of their cases, but if we're trying to split ties and again, split hairs. That stuff has an argument, right? Like there is a kernel of something there that we have to parse and get to the bottom with. And I can't really find a compelling reason other than J Dub is asked to carry some lineups that don't have Shay involved.

Rob Mahoney (39:45)

Here's the difference. We know for a fact that the Lakers, both versions of their team, would be horrible without LeBron James. The OKC Thunder would be just fine if J Dub were not around this season.

Derek Strong (40:00)

I don't know about just fine. I mean, we know this, but they would not be as they would not be historically dominant.

Rob Mahoney (40:05)

That's the difference. Well, they also have just fine without this kid.

Justin Ferrier (40:09)

They also have the type of death to overcome that. As we saw with Chet being out for basically all the season. I think I threw out a lot of the on off stuff when I saw that on the Thunder. Their defense is technically better in air quotes with Wallace off the floor, with Door off the floor, with Williams off the floor. And so especially on the defensive side, that stuff is so noisy. All due respect to ESPN making the the case for Nikola Jokic being the best defender in the year, which I haven't given that a look, I can already tell that's a little noisy.

Rob Mahoney (40:37)

I don't think that was all in defensive stats. Jokic is at the tippy top of every single one of those stats. But what I'm saying is defensive marriage for the stats.

Derek Strong (40:47)

Sure.

Rob Mahoney (40:47)

Yeah.

Justin Ferrier (40:48)

No, but we also did. And just to. To button this a little bit.

Derek Strong (40:52)

Yeah, we did.

Justin Ferrier (40:52)

Right. If you look at Zach Cram, I think last year or year two years ago wrote about why all those defensive stats are so noisy. And so I do think this kind of falls into that range.

Derek Strong (41:01)

Super noisy. And I want to say on off too, as we've kind of been circling here is a depth stat. Like it is representative of who you're playing not just with, but who is behind you, who is kind of like filling in in those moments and what they're bringing to the table. And so yeah, like the Thunder have so many great players, so many great players on both sides of the ball that naturally Jalen Williams is going to show up in a different way with a number like that.

Justin Ferrier (41:23)

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Rob Mahoney (43:04)

No, I got. Oh no. Yeah, he's my last.

Justin Ferrier (43:09)

You have to replace KD though in theory.

Rob Mahoney (43:12)

So would you swap in K or 100%? Halliburton is locked in. Garland is locked in. Jaren Jackson is locked in. These are locks on my third team. And then it's basically the KD Cade Brunson situation. And I just think Cade man is, you know what I mean? He's basically earned his keep. I think a lot of people eyebrow raised at the automatic max extension for the guy. Even if he was number one pick, the guy just was not on the floor. And at times when he was like the turnover situation was just insane.

Derek Strong (43:47)

It's still not great.

Rob Mahoney (43:49)

It's still not great. Yes. But you know this year he again and another thing, he wasn't showing an ability to score on people one on one. It was just like yo, what is this kid? And then this year it's all come together, man, and like you see the vision for who this kid can be going forward. And Detroit just like, you know, just going from losing 40 games in a row to being, you know, the bullies on the block, you know, literally beating guys up while also, you know, sailing into the playoffs this year. It's awesome to see, man.

Derek Strong (44:22)

I think he might wind up being one of the most unanimous picks for all NBA. I just think there's. There's something in Cade's game for everybody. Right. He's got the obvious like box score numbers 26 and 9 and 6 is going to jump off the page for a lot of people.

Rob Mahoney (44:36)

Yep.

Derek Strong (44:36)

He has the clear. If you are watching these games, you feel the heavy lift of his pick and roll execution and you see his vision on display in a way that is really compelling. And as was alluded to, this is a rock solid locked in playoff team. The fact that they got to the sixth seed, I think it gives him a nice bit of momentum, some wind on his back in terms of splitting some of these differences, splitting some of these ties. I think Cade is definitely going to make all NBA and I think when all is said and done, he probably is going to make it on even more ballots than we realize.

Justin Ferrier (45:06)

I actually considered him for second team as I was thinking through some of like the Jalen Brunson sort of spots there. Ultimately I didn't, if only because if we're looking at the NBA in totality, which we honestly should in terms of playoff seedings and whatnot, but we're just, you know, stuck in our ways for whatever reason. We've changed the All Star Game every fucking two months. But we won't change the way seeding work. That's fine. The Pistons, despite their successful season, would be the ninth seed in the West. And so I took that into account just in terms of overall value. I think as we're talking about the Pistons, like this has been an awesome success story. But one thing I will say to talk out of, out of my own mouth. Two sides of my mouth. Let's do it.

Rob Mahoney (45:43)

Both sides of your mouth.

Derek Strong (45:44)

Yeah, I hear you're talking out of your own mouth. Or I have a lot of questions.

Justin Ferrier (45:47)

Or I can just be AI. I'm just typing as this is happening. I think he's doing more with less. Like, I respect the fact that Malik Beasley has become the best three point shooter in NBA history, that Tim Hardaway Jr. Is just like a credible rotation player that you can count on in big moments. Yeah, on and on and on. I just don't think there's actually a lot there that Cade is orchestrating. So the efficiency, especially in comparison to someone like Halliburton is lacking. But I do think he's doing more with much less. When you look at the other guys.

Derek Strong (46:16)

Around him, him, I think there's some truth to that. I look, I don't look at a team like the Pacers, Siakam excluded and see like this is a, this is a murderer's row of all league caliber players. There's a lot of role players I like. There's a lot of guys who make sense in their roles. I think that's true of the Pistons too in their way. But they are a more defense forward unit given their personnel given and some of the young guys who are in that mix are kind of unusual pieces to have to fit in. That's where Kate is so good. Like the way he processes the game is already so sophisticated that he's going to make someone like a Sar Thompson even better and even more sensible. He's going to make someone like Ron Holland even better, even more sensible. So you have all these things coming together for him and I've just been really impressed by the season that Kate has had. I think he's absolutely going to be in here. To me the borderline cases are it's definitely more Kevin Durant and I think some of that will come down to how people think of the sun season overall. Like should they just be dinged Durant and Booker in the all NBA discussion for the way that team has gone off the rails. My counterpoint would be one, when Kevin Durant plays as a winning team and he's had an unbelievable offensive season especially on an individual level. But when he's out there they win. When he's not, anything is possible. And so if there is going to be a son that's going to be in it should be Kevin Durant. I would not blame anyone though for looking at all the Phoenix candidates and saying I just don't want to reward everything that has gone on there.

Justin Ferrier (47:37)

So I also think you have to look at Devin Booker who is someone I looked hard at here and now. I think you're right. Rob. What distinguished KD from Booker was the fact that Phoenix has been so good with KD on the floor. But if you look at Booker's numbers in comparison to his first team all NBA season, which was just a few years ago, 21, 22. This is his line this year. 26, 7 assists and 4 on 53% effective field goal, let's say first team all NBA season, 27 five and five and fewer games. It's virtually the same. And so I get into this weird nebulous space where it's like are we actually just dinging Booker and to a certain extent KD because the roster has just been so deficient, like how much is this actually on Booker and kd? But then you get into this spin cycle where you're like how the fuck can I have two of these guys? And this is one of the most disappointing teams in NBA history.

Derek Strong (48:30)

I think ultimately the basketball reasons why the Suns are bad are not really Kevin Durant or Devin Booker's problem. They've played well. I wouldn't say that they've elevated some of their teammates. I wouldn't say they've been the kind of like if we're going to buy nebulous intangible leadership qualities, they're not getting any benefit of the doubt on any of that kind of stuff. But ultimately the reason Suns are bad has more to do with I think Mike Boone, Holzer not always, always having his hand on the wheel. I think the depth issues are significant. The defense is a disaster and that's an effort standpoint and that's, that's one area where you could ding Devin Booker and Kevin Durant at some time at some points in the season that maybe they haven't been delivering defensively in the way you would want. Obviously Bradley Beal has not lived up to his part of the bargain as far as this being like an actual self standing big three. It is a two legged stool that keeps falling over and those two legs are pretty sturdy individually speaking. But I just, I don't, I don't know that I can get there with Booker. I can get there with Durant because 27 points on basically league leading efficiency is fucking impressive no matter who's doing it. And so yeah like I'm a little more, I'm, I'm a little more convinced by what Durant has offered this season than Booker who has been good, but maybe not all NBA good.

Justin Ferrier (49:39)

So I think we all had kd. Let's just say he doesn't make it. Was is putting in Cade. Rob, who do you have as your first up on the outside looking in right now? Until Katie's out.

Derek Strong (49:52)

That's my Jalen Williams flex spot.

Justin Ferrier (49:54)

I see. I, I'm a little bit more torn. I would look at Booker, I would look at Halliburton and I would look at the last guy here that we haven't Talked about, which is Alperin Shen, who the Rockets, when nobody was looking, just went on a run for the ages. I think they've lost like twice in the past two months or something like that. They're just mauling teams. So like attack dogs at this point.

Derek Strong (50:20)

They win 69% of their games. When Shengun plays, it's insane.

Rob Mahoney (50:26)

Like he's their best player and it's not even close.

Derek Strong (50:30)

He's the best player on an excellent regular season team. And that's. I don't. I didn't even say that in a way to take anything away from what they're going to do in the playoffs. They may be really good. We just saw the manhandle the warriors. Like their physicality is real, their athleticism is real. Shengun's skill level and production are real. I think he has a totally valid case for 13. I couldn't quite get there. And ultimately I'm looking at what J Dub is bringing to the Thunder and Sengun is bringing to the Rockets. And this is to me the hardest discussion in all of the all NBA stuff is where do you draw the line between really good and competent and successful second options versus very successful but ultimately not ultra superstar level first options? It's. It's so fuzzy and for me, Shangun got kind of the short end of things here. But he's. He's all NBA worthy. There's no doubt about it.

Justin Ferrier (51:16)

Was. Where are you on our guy, Alpie?

Rob Mahoney (51:19)

I mean, this season has been pretty impressive, man. I think him answering the kind of defensive question that always kind of lingered around him like, can this team be competent no matter what kind of athletes are there with this guy on defense and him answering the bell in that sense and being like, besides Fred Van Vliet, their most sturdiest, like dependable offensive player I think is a big deal. Again, I think it's one of those things with the Rockets where it feels like what's making them excellent is their defense. And yeah, I get it. He's buttressing their offense enough to make it like good enough to be this caliber of team. But they're a great team because they kick people's asses on defense. And like, I'm sorry, I'm not going to be like Sengun, like, because you're on this average. You're the best person on this average offense. I need to give you 13 all NBA. I'm sorry. Love the guy, but no, I think.

Justin Ferrier (52:18)

It'S a tough one though because unlike past years, you can't make the full throated. This guy is an awful defender and like he's not propped up, he's actually.

Derek Strong (52:25)

Straight up not quite, quite good.

Justin Ferrier (52:27)

The fact that they've made the two big approach not only work but actually thrive has been ridiculous. Like I don't know how that they're still trotting out him and Steven Adams as a front core. Steven Adams just having a renaissance despite only being like in his early 30s. We think he's like 45 at this point but like I don't know how that's working but they are just absolutely pummeling teams. The problem is offensively, it's just like the efficiency is quite poor and he isn't exactly scintillating there. But that is his main case if he's going to be there. And so in that case I'm probably going to lean someone like Halberton who is an efficiency monster despite giving away what he gives on defense. And so like the one thing he does well is so good it's hard to overlook. Whereas with Shen Goon it's like he's pretty good at a couple things.

Derek Strong (53:09)

Yeah, I think that's just somewhere where we kind of zoomed past this guy. So I want to give him at least a little moment where Jaren Jackson's case is so distinct. Jaren Jackson is on a good defensive team. He is an all defense level player and he's basically leading his team in scoring at a time when they've had yes, depth but so much uncertainty. It's been quite unstable. It's been a balancing act in terms of getting that offensive.

Rob Mahoney (53:30)

There's a lot going on over there.

Derek Strong (53:32)

There's a lot going on and he, he is the reason to the extent that it has worked, why it has worked and there really is something to that. When you can tether a team's specific strengths to what is making them successful, to what a specific player is bringing to the table. It's just a cleaner case. Like Jaren Jackson Jr. Having this sort of Swiss army knife role is what makes the Grizzlies balanced. It's what makes them functional and makes them so versatile. Alperin Shangoon is good at certain things. He's a little more limited in other ways, but they're not necessarily aligning as you said was with what is it that's driving Houston's ultimate success this season? He's contributing to that. He's a factor in it, but it's not his best quality. And so are. What are we voting for when we vote for Alper and Shangun, I think is a murky question that is going to stick with some.

Rob Mahoney (54:15)

We just want to reward a rocket. That's it.

Derek Strong (54:18)

I think it. I think more than that.

Justin Ferrier (54:20)

But. Yeah, but that definitely does help his case. I think with Jaren Jackson, the thing that's been most startling is if you look at his raw production, it's virtually the same as last year when we all just kind of wrote it off as like, oh, he's just playing through some stuff. He's trying things. There's nobody around. This is just a free pass to like explore the wonders of your game. He's doing practically the same stuff on much better efficiency. So basically the guys around him have just gotten better. If anything, they've leaned the offense more in his direction. Part of that's just because John Moran's just not around all the time. But I do think part of the reason why they want to democratize things and virtually force Taylor Jenkins out to the point before he was even out, they were kind of pushing him aside was because Jaren Jackson has been so awesome. And so for me, he was. He was clear third to.

Derek Strong (55:02)

Yeah, for me it was almost like I was a. I was kind of expecting him to be second team and I, I didn't quite have room for him there. But has. Has an open and shut case as far as all NBA goes to me.

Justin Ferrier (55:12)

So with my last spot, if I have to replace kd, which let's hope that we don't, I would probably lean Halliburton, if only because I want to be back on Rob's good side.

Derek Strong (55:20)

So thank God.

Justin Ferrier (55:22)

Are there any other honorable mentions that we need to mention here? Garland, we talked about.

Derek Strong (55:27)

Yeah.

Justin Ferrier (55:27)

Jamal Murray maybe Trey Young having the Jamal Murray.

Rob Mahoney (55:31)

Absolutely not.

Derek Strong (55:32)

I don't think so. I'm in the.

Justin Ferrier (55:33)

I'm in the deep long list at this point.

Derek Strong (55:35)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Justin Ferrier (55:35)

Jaylen Brown, James Harden, Demonis Sabonis.

Derek Strong (55:39)

We have to say yes, a bonus is demonic. Deserves consideration. Numbers absolutely deserves consideration.

Justin Ferrier (55:48)

Woz just get like take over his body numbers. What's going on?

Rob Mahoney (55:54)

His number.

Derek Strong (55:55)

Okay, there it is.

Rob Mahoney (55:56)

Impressive. Not his play.

Derek Strong (55:59)

I think his play is also quite impressive, but maybe not all NBA impressive.

Justin Ferrier (56:03)

But if boss just tried to backdoor becoming a big sabana Stan and just.

Rob Mahoney (56:07)

Hope that no one ever, ever, ever, ever. That's never happening.

Derek Strong (56:12)

I actually do think Pascal Siakam is not going to get votes. I do think he is worth a look. I do think.

Rob Mahoney (56:18)

We know.

Derek Strong (56:19)

I'm gonna. I'm gonna back up. I'm gonna Let. I'm gonna let it speak for itself.

Rob Mahoney (56:23)

We know where you stand on every pacer that's ever existed.

Justin Ferrier (56:27)

They're a. Get this guy a dinner. Bring him to St. Elmo's. He's got your back.

Derek Strong (56:34)

Actually, I've never been. I haven't. I haven't partaken in the shrimp cocktail myself. I gotta make that happen next time.

Rob Mahoney (56:38)

The shrimp cocktail definitely had my nose.

Derek Strong (56:40)

Like that's what you want.

Rob Mahoney (56:42)

It was.

Derek Strong (56:42)

If the horseradish doesn't have me in pain. They were not doing that.

Rob Mahoney (56:45)

It was serious business. It was serious business.

Derek Strong (56:47)

I'm glad to hear it.

Justin Ferrier (56:48)

All right, let's flip to all defense now. Another list just completely impacted by the minutes and the games played. A bunch of guys is not eligible, unfortunately. Wemby, first and foremost, would be number one with a bullet on my list. I have to imagine our first teams, much like with all NBA, are pretty similar. I'm going to give you what I have at first team. Evan Mobley, Dyson Daniels, Lou Dort, Jaren Jackson Jr. Draymond Green.

Derek Strong (57:15)

So I have four of the five same. Evan Mobley, Draymond Green, Dyson Daniels, Lou Dort. I actually have Amen Thompson in Jaren Jackson Jr. Spot for first team.

Rob Mahoney (57:25)

So I don't. It's tough for me to reward the wing defenders even when they're great. So Dyson is my only wing and I have Draymond Mobley, Jaren Jackson Jr. Always want to say the third and Zubac.

Derek Strong (57:42)

Yeah, Zub.

Rob Mahoney (57:43)

Zub is on my first team because he's a big man anchoring that defense. The defense is basically what's made these guys what they've been this year. And I get it. Chris Dunn is nice and all this other stuff and, you know, Jones Jr. And we get it. These guys are great players on defense. But it's Zube that's manning the paint. His freaking rim protection numbers are out of this world.

Derek Strong (58:06)

He's been so good.

Rob Mahoney (58:06)

Um, yeah, Zubach is my first team.

Justin Ferrier (58:09)

Woz is baiting us, Rob. I feel like the Dunn sideswipe was fun. Specifically.

Rob Mahoney (58:14)

Listen, I like what Dunn is doing. He's on my other team. But no big man. Take precedent for this particular award because they're the most important part of a defense.

Derek Strong (58:24)

They do take precedence. So she was like. I was looking at my ballot and the fact that I have effectively three perimeter players on my first team, all defense in a what is now? What is a positionless ballot. I don't know what to think of myself.

Rob Mahoney (58:35)

Wait who's your third perimeter play? Oh, no, it's amen.

Derek Strong (58:39)

Yeah, I guess it depends on how you define Ahmed Thompson. Is he a perimeter player? I don't know. He's out there doing things that no other defender would dare even try to do. And he's doing it at just an insane, obscene level. Lou Dorrit and Dyson Daniels, I think, deserve a place here. I mean, Dyson Daniels we've been talking about all season in terms of the impact he has in deflections and steals. Like the numbers, the very measurable things are all there. You can also see just like the terror factor upping when Dyson Daniels is even vaguely involved in a play. And I want to reward that.

Justin Ferrier (59:11)

So Daniels is now averaging three steals a game, which, if you're just looking at box score, just looks wrong.

Rob Mahoney (59:18)

Insane.

Justin Ferrier (59:19)

I thought I was on like the wrong page. I thought I was like on a per 36 minute or like an advanced percentage. One. Three steals a game. The last time that that has happened. 90, 93, 94. Nate McMillan.

Derek Strong (59:33)

Wow.

Justin Ferrier (59:34)

Since the mid-90s, yeah, that has not happened. That's insane.

Derek Strong (59:39)

I think there is something there too, where when you think about player development, for example, a player going from like an end of the bench guy into getting into games, okay, that's like a real and real development. Getting into games versus being a starter, that's a more profound development that requires a lot more. Going from starter to star is far and away not just the most important kind of development, but the most difficult to scale. I think going from two steals a game to three, statistically speaking, is a similar kind of thing. Not just because it's historically without precedent other than Nate McMillan, as you said, Justin, but the breadth of what you have to see in process. To be able to get three steals a game requires a really, really special defensive mind. And so he's not just a guy who's gambling for everything, making it work like he is seeing things on the floor at a super high level and has some of the best hands in the business. So Dyson Daniel's great. Lou Dorrit I think is just like the intensity leader of the best defense in basketball and frankly, one of the best defenses I've ever seen. And so when you're that big and that physical and that relentless, in addition to the ISO numbers being what they are, which you can find them, they're really terrifying. What he can do to opposing scorers, that's deserving a first team selection as well for me.

Justin Ferrier (60:51)

So we'll save the Defensive player of the year conversation for the next. To get in some of the particulars about our first team. I. What's funny is I had a man in my first team, but then I moved him out at last. Second for Draymond, perhaps. I'm just, like, caught up in the propaganda.

Rob Mahoney (61:05)

Oh, yeah, you are being propagandized.

Justin Ferrier (61:07)

Good Lord. I have to give Draymond credit because he saw an opportunity and he was like, I am going to be the one who fills the information void here to make my own case very loudly. And it's hard to miss because he also has been very good since the Butler trade. Unfortunately, it's been since the Butler trade. He's just completely jumped off the page.

Derek Strong (61:27)

We might need Draymond Green, political operative. Like, there's some vacuums out in the conversation. I feel like he could help us navigate and fill a little.

Rob Mahoney (61:36)

I feel like in the wrong hands, that could go terribly, terribly wrong.

Justin Ferrier (61:42)

It's true. Second team here. I have Amen Thompson, as I mentioned. I also have Avisa Zubotch. I have to Monica Mara, because you're goddamn right I do. I have. The last two spots were tough for me. They could honestly go. Anyway. I have Case and Wallace over Jalen Williams.

Derek Strong (61:59)

Fuck yeah. Let's go.

Justin Ferrier (62:01)

I don't really know how to parse the difference with some of these Thunder guys. I could put five guys from the Thunder on this team. Cruiser not eligible because of minutes and everything.

Derek Strong (62:09)

I just.

Justin Ferrier (62:09)

I don't know really how to do it. But Wallace, as I watch, is such an impactful attack defender. The Steel's numbers are much better. I think he's averaging like two and a half for 36, which is nuts. And then I have Rudy Gobert as the last guy, reluctantly, another guy that I put some respect on.

Derek Strong (62:25)

You don't need to be reluctant about it.

Rob Mahoney (62:26)

It's just defensively, he's again, not the high impact player.

Derek Strong (62:31)

See, I. I think he has been more or less there the whole season. Just even better lately. I think he was not to me. What was the flaw in their early season defense?

Justin Ferrier (62:39)

That's fair. Fair. That's fair. And that's why I didn't have Jaden McDaniels, for instance. McDaniels definitely would have been eligible if we're talking about. Stepped it up. Absolutely incredible. But. So that's Amen Tumani, Zubot, Wallace. Go Bear. Was. Who do you have?

Rob Mahoney (62:53)

Amen. Rudy Dort, Kamara and Chris Dunn.

Derek Strong (63:00)

Well, so Chris Dunn we need to talk about.

Rob Mahoney (63:02)

Yes. Because Adam Silver's Ruining our awards ballot again.

Derek Strong (63:06)

Chris Dunn has played 70 games this season. Only 51 of those games count as qualifying because Chris Dunn played, you know, like 10 minutes here, 12 minutes there. Did not play the 20 required minutes in one of those games. So Chris Dunn not eligible. We should also say, obviously, Victor Webanyama, Anthony Davis, those are guys who would be on the team almost every year.

Rob Mahoney (63:25)

Easily.

Derek Strong (63:25)

They're out.

Rob Mahoney (63:26)

John D. When he plays is still just supremely impactful. In fact, watching the Lakers play against the warriors and having no answer for Steph, I'm like, damn, AD Was really the Steph answer. Dude, like your pick and roll is done with this guy on the floor.

Derek Strong (63:44)

It's so true. I think Jonathan Isaac would have had a case too. He only has 13 qualifying games because.

Justin Ferrier (63:51)

He plays 15 minutes game well.

Derek Strong (63:53)

But those 15 minutes are banging like he's one of. When he's out there, he's an amazing defensive player. And the reason he's not playing is not because of his defense. You know what I'm saying? So it's like if we're rewarding the best defensive players, I think he's there, there. Jalen Suggs, Asar Thompson, Tari Eason. Those guys are all out based on minutes. The Thunder guys, you said Justin Caruso, Isaiah Hartenstein, Chad Holmgren, all ineligible. All probably could have made an all defensive team. Drew Holiday, I think Al Horford is also ineligible. Like, there's a lot of really, really good defenders who are just not able to be on the ballot here.

Rob Mahoney (64:24)

Big Al.

Derek Strong (64:24)

Yeah. So was. If you're going to replace Chris Dunn, who you cannot vote for, with somebody else, who would you pick?

Rob Mahoney (64:32)

Man, I was probably going to go another big. Probably Hartenstein can't vote for him.

Derek Strong (64:38)

Also.

Rob Mahoney (64:38)

Oh, he's also ineligible.

Derek Strong (64:40)

Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (64:42)

Who else do I have here? I have J Dub. I think Caruso is ineligible too.

Derek Strong (64:46)

Also ineligible. Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (64:47)

Yeah, J Dub. Then another Thunder. Just figure out another Thunder.

Derek Strong (64:52)

Yeah, that's it. I think you could do worse than sick. Look, music to my ears that you got Kayson Wallace in here. Justin, who is just one of the best one on one defenders in the world. And it's maybe a little more narrow in his application than Lou Dorrit because. Right. He is smaller. He needs.

Rob Mahoney (65:07)

He's a little guy. I'm always reluctant with the little guys, man.

Derek Strong (65:10)

There's a little bit of like, the hands are great. There's a little bit of like Avery Bradley, but maybe actually demonstrably good. And not just we see it and it looks obvious, but it doesn't pan out when you. When you really look under the hood. I really like Kacen Wallace's game. I think for J Dub, for me, it's like the ver. The hyperversatility we talked about with him playing the five. He's like, ready for whatever's called for. And he also has the fun thing going for him where he's like such a goofy, funky scorer and he knows all the angles and he's able to apply that to where, like, you just can't really get by J Dub one on one either. You can't get the corner on him because he knows how to leverage those sorts of opportunities and create space. Like, I love guys whose brains can work both ways in that capacity. And so, like, what J Dub is doing on top of his offensive load, I find really impressive. Impressive.

Justin Ferrier (65:56)

So did you give your full second team, Rob?

Derek Strong (65:59)

I did not. Sorry. We zoomed ahead. My second team in full. Jaren Jackson Jr. Avita Zubots, Rudy Gobert, Tomani Kamara to complete the Triple Crown group chat approved to Moni Kamara and Jalen Williams gets my last spot.

Justin Ferrier (66:12)

Okay, so I think we all have basically the same names there.

Rob Mahoney (66:16)

Yeah. Rudy, Amen, Kamara, J Dub. Yep.

Derek Strong (66:22)

I want. Can we say one more thing about Zoo? Just to circle back to him for a second because we kind of got sidetracked in the Chris Dunn of it all. He's always been a really good positional defender. Like, he's had a good, good sense of how to muck things up, where to be on the court. I think what changed for me this season with him is you watch Clippers games and like, the first thing that pops out is how enormous Avita Zubots is relative to anyone he's playing against. And ultimately what that does to any guard. Guard who turns the corner and just gets the basket, like, blotted out by his presence in the paint. And so, yeah, he's playing with Chris Dunn, he's playing with Derrick Jones Jr. We ran through those guys already as far as, like, a lot of good perimeter talent there, but he's the backstop. Like, he's the part that is. That is making all that work and is letting guys like Chris Dunn chase and be as aggressive as they are. So Zoo, completely a completely worthy first team selection for me. Kind of slid to two, but has been awesome all year long.

Rob Mahoney (67:15)

They, they, the Clippers, God bless them, they ran a half ass Zube defensive player of the year campaign. They all just wore T shirts to one game. That was basically the extent of their campaigning on his behalf. I mean, it's nice, but it's like, come on, we could have did more than that. Steve Ballmer sends some gift baskets to the media, man.

Derek Strong (67:34)

Do you think that.

Rob Mahoney (67:35)

No, it was a T shirt. A black and white. A black T shirt with white lettering.

Derek Strong (67:38)

Maybe they got the Chris Dunn merch, like made and printed and then he became ineligible and they're like, oh, that's a Steve Ball or cost.

Justin Ferrier (67:47)

Do you remember when Chris Dunn was drafted in the range of Jamal Murray and Buddy Heel? It was like a real coin flip of who was going to go where. And I remember this explicitly because the Pelicans were drafting highly that year. They ultimately took Buddy healed. But like Chris Dunn, he's gone from one type of player to the complete opposite of what you expected, where he's just all defensive menace as opposed to like junk it up offensive player with the defense still there. It's just. It's just so wild how players just completely shape shift over the course of their NBA careers. All honorable mention honorable mentions. I have Kessler down. I have Bam down. I have Dirk White down. McDaniels in there, but we talked about him.

Rob Mahoney (68:29)

Tari Eason.

Justin Ferrier (68:30)

Yeah, Ineligible.

Derek Strong (68:31)

I think he is ineligible, but just amazing. Just a menace.

Justin Ferrier (68:37)

All right, let's go to all rookies.

Derek Strong (68:39)

Also, I want to say I gave. Yeah, we kind of ran through this very quickly in the all NBA discussion. I thought about Jason Tatum for a second as far as one of these spots. I think Tatum absolutely just an absolutely sick defensive season. And yeah, Derek White will get credit. Drew Holiday will get credit. Even by reputation. I would bet that a lot of people think of Jalen Brown as a better defender than Jason Tatum. I would disagree. And I think. I think what Tatum's done defensively this year is really special.

Rob Mahoney (69:05)

The year that they gave what's his name, Marcus Smart defensive player of the year, which was a travesty. I hope you weren't one of those idiots, Rob.

Derek Strong (69:13)

I would.

Rob Mahoney (69:14)

That voted for Marcus Smart.

Derek Strong (69:16)

I did not.

Rob Mahoney (69:16)

Jason Tatum was better than him. The freaking dude that won defensive play of the year that year.

Derek Strong (69:21)

Tatum was better than him that year, if memory serves. I think I voted Jaren Jackson Jr. That year and I stand by it.

Justin Ferrier (69:28)

Tatum has become the biggest sob story of someone who's just like just a rousing success I've ever seen in my life.

Derek Strong (69:34)

We're always sob story.

Justin Ferrier (69:35)

We're always talking about like, oh, he doesn't get enough credit for X, Y and Z. It's just like I think he's doing fine.

Rob Mahoney (69:41)

I'm not feeling.

Justin Ferrier (69:41)

Not feeling bad for any Duke 600.

Rob Mahoney (69:44)

Million in freaking career earnings. Like, he's good fam.

Justin Ferrier (69:49)

I. I don't disagree with your point though. I think that's a good pick. All rookie. So all bets are off here.

Derek Strong (69:54)

No rules, whatever you want.

Justin Ferrier (69:56)

There isn't some like unwritten thing where they just like, have had to have seen the White Lotus finale and like answered a questionnaire about it?

Derek Strong (70:03)

Well, nothing, nothing. We can as a group chat standard if you would like. But yeah, if you want to plug in like a RA random sixer who's just showed up and played 10 games, you're welcome to do that.

Justin Ferrier (70:12)

There's plenty of them, let me tell you. All right, first team, I have Stefan Castle, Risha Shea, Alex Sar, Jalen Wells, Mattis Bazellas.

Derek Strong (70:25)

You got Bazella's first team.

Justin Ferrier (70:27)

Here's the thing. At this point, I was just like any guy who is popped in a way at any point in the season, I gave them priority over guys who have been just like steadily. Okay. And Bazelles the past month, two has been very good, even though early on he was very shaky.

Derek Strong (70:42)

I mean, he's a rookie, you know, he played like a rookie.

Rob Mahoney (70:45)

The Bulls are Justin's Pacers, by the way.

Derek Strong (70:48)

Just so everybody except not founded in anything resembling the real world.

Rob Mahoney (70:54)

So we're being clear.

Justin Ferrier (70:56)

We know that you've been watching a lot of TV lately, Rob, but the Bulls are out here killing. All right? If you're plugging in, they are doing wonders in order to shore up that playing spot.

Derek Strong (71:07)

I'll tell who is your Middle America team that you're. You're going to stump for, you know, like, who. Who is the W?

Rob Mahoney (71:14)

You know, it's funny, it used to be the Pacers, but I'm just off them.

Derek Strong (71:17)

You've been out flanked too, I gotta say. Yeah. Despite the fact this is a great Ben Mather in season. But I've just been.

Rob Mahoney (71:25)

Are the Nuggets Middle America or is that Southwest?

Derek Strong (71:29)

That's too Mountain west, you know.

Rob Mahoney (71:31)

Yeah, mountains.

Derek Strong (71:32)

That's too Rockies region. We got to think like Great Plains. We got to think Rust Belt. Like we gotta get the middle of the street.

Rob Mahoney (71:36)

There's no heartland love for me. No.

Justin Ferrier (71:38)

You'll like Detro during the playoffs.

Rob Mahoney (71:40)

Yes, I'm sure I will enjoy the chippiness and the over the top nature of their players and coach, but Milwaukee? Yeah. No, no, no. Not a Heartlander anymore. Sorry, guys. I know that's the real America, as Sarah Palin would say. But I don't. I don't rock with them no more.

Justin Ferrier (71:59)

Okay. So Rob, who do you have on your first team?

Derek Strong (72:02)

I have the same four. Stephan Castle, Riza Shay, Jalen Wells, Alex are my fifth. I do reward plotting along being pretty decent for the most of the season. And I have Zach Edie in my final first team.

Justin Ferrier (72:14)

I made the late switch of the two.

Derek Strong (72:16)

Yeah, yeah. I think we like there is something about rookie. The rookie awards specifically. I don't want to get too hung up on. Do you play for a good team? It's just like not fair to these guys circumstances. But if you do make an impact for a team that actually matters, that's a nice little bonus in terms of your case.

Rob Mahoney (72:33)

Yeah, my last play had the same lock in four as y'all. My last player was Khalil Ware. Very nice of the Miami Heat who I just absolutely love watching this guy play. Like just really toolsy, just bounces around, got some skill to him. Like I've enjoyed him all season. He's been a bit of a revelation, honestly. So he's my last person on the first team.

Derek Strong (72:56)

Love that.

Justin Ferrier (72:57)

So Ed was my first guy out of the first team. He's averaging over the past three games 17 rebounds a game. Shows like his counting stats probably affected by not being able to play as often because their center rotation is so robust. Obviously a little bit more limited. But like at this point, second team all rookie for a pretty mediocre class. I think he's deserving of first team even though I have him on the second team. I have Edie, I have Clingan, I have Ware, I have Eve Missy to round out the four center rotation. I have here then my last spot. I have bub care.

Derek Strong (73:31)

Yeah, Bob is a tricky one. He does a lot of stuff and I think, look, when you get to the end of the all rookie second team, you're going to pick somebody who's just doing stuff for a team that does not really matter. And it's not like I can't tell if anything they're contributing is demonstrably good basketball or helping their team win in any conceivable way. So I have a similar lineup. I have Khalil. We're here because I didn't have him on my first team. Eve Missy who I actually thought about Eve Missy for first team as well. I think he's, you know, as a viable case. It's just like a pogo stick.

Rob Mahoney (74:03)

He's knocking on the door sometimes a.

Derek Strong (74:05)

Directionless Pogo stick, but a pogo stick nonetheless. Mon who I maintain would be first team if he had just kind of gotten on course and maybe gotten different kinds of opportunities right out of the gate. Cling and I agree with you, deserves second team. Look for second team. I think he's been straight up dominant on defense more often than any other rookie in the field basically. And my guy doing stuff on a team where I'm not sure if it's helpful or not. Pick is Isaiah Collier for the Jazz. That's y. That's where I ended up with this last one.

Rob Mahoney (74:33)

Yeah. So Baselis, Edie, Missy Collier clinging for me.

Derek Strong (74:41)

Nice bub.

Rob Mahoney (74:42)

Carrington. Sorry. Cutting room floor.

Derek Strong (74:44)

Yeah.

Justin Ferrier (74:44)

I almost had Collier in there and then I saw that he was shooting 25% from three and I audibly gagged.

Derek Strong (74:51)

He can't really score. Like he's not a threat to score, but in a way that almost makes me a little more impressed that he passes as much as he does because it's like these teams aren't guarding him as a scoring threat. I don't know. He like again, he's. He is getting a lot of opportunity for a team that does not really want to participate in NBA basketball right now and has basically cleared the decks of any veterans who might have otherwise been in his way. That said, he just has like the most assists by a rookie in five years. So on some level you have to reward what he's been able to put together.

Justin Ferrier (75:22)

The Jazz are just so tough to. To sift through.

Derek Strong (75:25)

Yeah, brutal.

Justin Ferrier (75:26)

But Collier would have been my first out. I also wrote down Quentin Post, who despite being in only 40 games is regularly starting for one of the best teams in the NBA right now. 45, 41, 76 shooting splits like he does one thing very well. And actually it was pretty funny when the warriors were playing the Hawks. Just listening to Dominique Wilkins like try to wrap his head around a big. Taking this many threes and not being physical. He was going through an existential crisis like mid game call. He was just like, oh, what is this guy doing? He's just.

Rob Mahoney (75:56)

Why is he even on the court?

Justin Ferrier (75:59)

He's on my shirt list. And then I guess we have to give credit to Jared McCain for 23 games. Just awesome. 23 games.

Rob Mahoney (76:05)

By far the rookie of the year was a killer.

Derek Strong (76:07)

Yep. But Dalton connect was out there solid, solid rookie. Good like good impact overall for the role he's been put in the most like out there doing stuff. Player that we have to at least mention here is Kyle Filipowski. Who's been putting up numbers again at just the absolute dre est part of a dreck season for the Jazz.

Rob Mahoney (76:28)

Been putting up numbers since college.

Derek Strong (76:29)

Okay, all right, all right.

Justin Ferrier (76:32)

He's like a veteran. I knew. I knew it was coming.

Derek Strong (76:36)

You raised the guy's name on one podcast and there's only one direction it can go.

Justin Ferrier (76:40)

Oh, listen, I only have 15 minutes of quality impact on this podcast, so I gotta hearken back to one of the few good ones.

Rob Mahoney (76:54)

Sir.

Justin Ferrier (76:56)

We'll be back on Thursday with the rest of our ballots. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. We'll talk to you next time. Must be 21 + and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or 800-327-50050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-1877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.

Isaiah Blakely (77:50)

This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Co. Non alcoholic brews. The other day was golfing with some of the guys. They're like, hey, you want anything? I was like, I'm an adult. I got stuff to do tonight. I'm not doing one of these like semi retired deals. 18 holes and see how it goes. Luckily, Athletic Brewing Company had reached out to me. They sent me a bunch of stuff. Stuff including the Irish Red or the Run Wild IPA and my personal favorite, Upside Dawn. A nice little golden goes well with a few holes of golf this March. Don't miss the sports action with Athletic. Head to athletic brewing.com ringer to find it near you or shop online. That's athletic brewing.com r I n g r to find award winning athletic athletic na brews near you. Athletic brewing company fit for all times near beer.