← The Ringer NBA Show
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- [00:00]
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- [01:16]
Rob Mahoney
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Rob Mahoney. Justin Varior not here today I'm assuming elbow deep in spackle but with me as always, Kyle Mann. Kyle, how are you doing?
- [01:26]
Kyle Mann
Gas mask on? Yeah, he's got his AirPods in listening to Yukon Husky podcast or something like that. I'm doing well. I just, I just got through, you know, getting, getting the pod ready to go, getting everything in place, getting the dog to settle down. There's definitely like getting the dog settled down. Part of this is always if there were a camera inside our house just watching me rationalize with him and try to get him. There are a lot of big like who owns who moments where I don't know if you have these Rob, where you're having these standoffs where they're looking at you and you're like what? What is it? And I go through a checklist. We get him laid down, you know, I don't know, I just have these moments where I carry his around. You know, it's like do I walk him or does he walk me? I, I have these moments where I zoom out and I don't totally know what's going on.
- [02:13]
Rob Mahoney
It. These are fair questions. Not to just full on life coach you here but we got to get your house in order. We got to get your entire existence, you know, really ironed out. The fact that you're having just a full on negotiation every morning with your dog to get him to do the simplest basic things. I'm a little concerned about your just like day to day workload I love
- [02:32]
Kyle Mann
him, but he's a little bit of an emotional terrorist. I'll just say that any. Any dog that's mostly poodle. It's just a lot of people. We'll do another. We'll do a breakout dog pod someday, but love him to death. But yeah, a lot of maintenance. Too smart. I wish you were like 15% dumber, Rob. That's what I always say about my dog.
- [02:51]
Rob Mahoney
There really is a sweet spot for dogs where you don't want them being so smart and so curious that they're turning your life upside down. But in light of, you know, emotional terrorists of a kind, it was pitched to me by some anonymous sources. Kyle, that you and I, with Justin out today, should turn this into like a full on Blazers truther podcast, that we should just go deep, tearing down Portland bit by bit from their roster. How. How receptive do you think Justin would have been to that?
- [03:20]
Kyle Mann
Not receptive. You know, I don't think. I mean, he. Well, no, Justin's weird where he. He doesn't. He doesn't run away from a fight. So I think that if he were here, I honestly, he's told us that, like, he gets stronger from negativity. Like he. He grows stronger. I don't totally understand it. He's like Kirby. He just like inhales it and sort of swells up and then he like spits the fire out. I haven't played Kirby in years, but that's my memory of it. But I feel like that's how he'd react to it.
- [03:46]
Rob Mahoney
I do think he would ultimately become stronger and maybe too strong. Maybe we would put him into a zone where he is no longer Governor Bull if we tried to put too much Blazers negativity into the world. So I'm glad we're inching away from that. We have settled on a different bit today, which is, look, there are three weeks left in the NBA regular season. All of a sudden we have looked up post All Star. The. The time has evaporated. The playoffs are almost here. We're kind of playing out the string, but also there's a lot of teams in weird places. And so we're going to go through today some of what we want to see over these last couple weeks, what we're hoping to still learn, honestly, as these teams kind of finish up their regular season slate. But before we do that, I want to look even ahead, even further to our. To our Thursday podcast in which we will be doing an honorary Justin's absence tradition, a mailbag. So if you have Any questions for me and Kyle about dog wrangling the NBA regular season? Your playoff expectations, maybe no tanking solutions. We've gotten quite a lot of those
- [04:40]
Kyle Mann
and I think good on that for a long time.
- [04:43]
Rob Mahoney
We're about set. But email basically anything else to ringer group, chat gmail.com and maybe we will answer it on Thursday. Maybe we won't. Maybe you can bribe us. I encourage the creativity indie pop rock
- [04:56]
Kyle Mann
bands from the early 2000s. That's a sweet spot for both of us.
- [04:59]
Rob Mahoney
If you want to album things, you know, just really getting into the nuts and bolts of the indie scene. I think we would welcome it.
- [05:06]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, for sure. Hit us.
- [05:08]
Rob Mahoney
Well, let's. As far as today goes, Kyle, what do we want to learn about the rest of the regular season, our regular season to do list? I want to start with the Lakers, who we've been talking a lot about lately, but honestly just keep piling up wins. Luka looks better and better. They've proven a lot over the last couple of weeks. But is there anything for you that you're kind of still waiting to see from them that you're still hoping they can convince you of as far as who they can be going into the postseason?
- [05:32]
Kyle Mann
One thing that I would like someone to. I don't know if there's a statistical sort of analyst out there who has the time and the resources to do this. I would like to see if someone can prove that players play better when they're in the middle of heated custody battles. You know, we saw. We saw Fred Van Vliet. I just. There's something about, you know, parenthood that gets guys to go up a level.
- [05:52]
Rob Mahoney
Let's. Let's quickly clarify. Fred Van Vliet was, like, in. After the birth of his child.
- [05:56]
Kyle Mann
Well, I'm just saying that there was a. There was a paternal charge to his play, is what I'm saying. And. And it's. I don't know. I'm not trying to, you know, say that this is the direct causality, but I don't know. There's a. There's a Finding Nemo thing of, like, Lucas, like, has his kids on his mind and has that fired him up and made him play better? I can't rule it out.
- [06:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Anecdotally seems. Yes, but I'm anecdotally for you. When you became a father, did you feel like the surge of power come within you?
- [06:24]
Kyle Mann
No, it was during COVID So I was kind of.
- [06:26]
Rob Mahoney
I was more.
- [06:27]
Kyle Mann
It was more gaining weight and watching basketball, you know, and there's a lot.
- [06:32]
Rob Mahoney
That's a kind of power.
- [06:33]
Kyle Mann
You know, I didn't really get to. I didn't really get to benefit from the fatherhood boost as much as I would have liked to have. But I mean it's seriously. I had a couple of non serious ones here too. I mean like LeBron needs to prove that there's not a portrait of Dorian Gray in some like secure location that Rich Paul is. There's that and then in some secure facility in Brentwood. The other one that's serious though is that, you know, Lakers obviously Michael Pino wrote a really good piece on the ringer. I think it came out today about LeBron sort of receding like, like his hairline, I guess I tried to make that joke. We'll move on him sort of like fitting into a role that is better suited for where he is in his career. It's less like I'm full time the dude kind of fitting in better with what Reeves is doing, what Luca's doing, what they need from him as, as a connector and things like that. And we can talk about that. Something that really jumped out to me though, Rob, is the defensive side of this. You know, on the season synergy has the Lakers at 1.027 points per possession. And in the last 13, which I believe they're like 11 of 13 or are they 12? It's really high. They've won a lot of games recently. They're down to 0.987. What do you think about the defensive side of this? Because to me I think that the offensive side, they're. They're smart enough, you get them into a series, obviously you've got two elite chess players. You've got a guy who's a big time dynamic 3 level scorer in Austin Reeves. I trust them to make it difficult for whoever they play on the offensive side of the ball. The defensive thing is really promising. I would like to see them prove that this is more than a. Like we're throwing something out new and catching people off guard. I'd like to see them sustain that because if they're able to, I think it takes them from interesting to they're starting to flirt with like, I don't know if they're full blown serious in the tears of the Nuggets and the spurs and the Thunder, but it makes. It raises their interest level significantly. What do you think about their defense?
- [08:37]
Rob Mahoney
I mean they've looked more stable than the Nuggets have of late, if nothing else. And you're right that there is A sustainability question that kind of has to be answered. And it's not just one that waits for the playoffs. It's one that I'm, I'm eager to see how they manage over these next couple weeks. Because there's the initial part that you talked about, which is once you put something in front of people and they start to adjust to it. And I think for the Lakers, that's mostly been their execution within these kind of like zoned up sort of looks in which they're mucking up space and they're making it more difficult to kind of target their weakest defenders, I have found to be really effective. And they're balancing them and they're exchanging them really, really well and really cleanly, especially relative to who they were earlier in the season. So you're putting that in front of teams that's kind of been going on to various degrees all season, but more prominently lately. And then there's also just executing at the level that they've been with the effort that they've been over the last month or so. And that's the kind of thing that is just like one of the hardest things to carry through long stretches of the regular season. And so is this a thing that they can do for a couple of weeks at a time or, or is this going to be who they are on like a regular ongoing basis? Like there. That to me is bigger than a schematic question. There's almost like a function of will involved and just like, are these guys willing to invest in the ways that they have to every night for the next three weeks, even when the games don't seem to matter as much? I'm, I'm eager to see because I think they do have it in them clearly to play pretty competent defense. But do they have it in them to be a rolling, you know, top 10ish defense going forward? That, that remains to be seen.
- [10:07]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, there's a lot of. Well, to start with, just the personnel, I mean the, the, the consistency that you're talking about over the course of a season. Yeah, those things are just really, really difficult to do. And they're so vulnerable in so many different, like human. Hard to quantify areas. I mean, we could go and find numbers to maybe back it up. But it's tricky because when you have a guy like Luca who can be here and gone again, when you have guys who have just kind of fleeting on and off again effort like deandre Ayton, it's like you need, you need kind of culture, setting, catalyst players. Granted Marcus Smart isn't the same guy that he used to be, but Marcus is gon line up with the intensity of a JJ Redick and deliver that what's from the sideline to the floor and deliver that accountability. And then you have the other things of just like when I see the hearing gone again, guys like Luca, you know, deciding when he's going to be interested, it's like that can affect the cumulative, like in these little micro moments between, like, this is where I need to be, this is when I need to be there. You can just have a moment where you're like, oh, my God, I gotta do like that. Those things add up, and I think they can add to the malaise of what makes a team bad defensively. But I think in terms of, like, the personnel that they're rolling out there, when you think about them, my mind is drawn to the weak spots like you were talking about, like The Lucas, the LeBron's a little older, you know, Reeves, obviously, with the size and things like that. I think something that gets overlooked is if those guys are playing consistently and they're bought in and they're given the effort where it's needed. They are, dare I say, I don't know if elite. They're very good anticipators, you know, and that's, that's something that, like, on the offensive side of the ball, you have the opportunity to do. If you're like a great guy, spatially, you understand the floor, you understand actions, you can see them coming. That's an advantage that a guy like a lebron or a Luca has. And it's like, if they're able to protect them with the Ruiz, the Aytons, the Jared Vanderbilts, the Jackson Hayes and load up and Marcus Smart, you know, I think it puts Luca and LeBron and Austin Reeves to do the things that they do do well, which is the anticipation and things like that.
- [12:03]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. And I think Smart is just flexible enough still to kind of cross match in the way that they need right. When you're moving pieces around the board to put Luka in the best matchup, to put Austin Reaves in a place where he can kind of lock and trail and be disruptive and get in the middle of things. Having Marcus Smart, who, yeah, you don't want him on the quickest point guards in the league still, but he can guard bigger wings and he can leverage his size. And he is so good at anticipating in the way you're describing. These other guys are too. I think that really plays for them. And as loathe as I am to rely on or depend on deandre Ayden for literally anything, I think you got to tip your hat a little bit to the way he's been playing. And especially in some of these, like really big time matchups are coming up with huge stops and huge buckets. Against Nikola Jokic, for example, he's just had these moments lately that really open your eyes as far as like, okay, if they get, if they get this version, even for a game of a series or two games of a series, that could really bust something open for them. So overall that balance is fascinating for them because you're right. There is a lot of like offense and defense kind of purely one direction or another. And how much are those extremes edging in closer to something resembling a normal, balanced NBA team and maybe no greater contrast on the roster can be found than the like, burgeoning duo that. I would love to see a lot more of Luke Kennard and Jarred Vanderbilt who are playing together and it just kind of like works and makes sense. I don't know if that's a playoff combination or not, but Kyle, I am, I am charmed by it. I have to admit.
- [13:33]
Kyle Mann
The double lefty thing there, that's. Yeah, that's not a duo that I ever would have pinpointed. I wanted to say, I wanted to tack something on about eight because I was.
- [13:42]
Rob Mahoney
Please think.
- [13:43]
Kyle Mann
And we. Let's circle back because I'm sure you have your things. You want them to prove to Ayton. Like, I was just thinking about, like, what drives people crazy about him and his quotes and things like that. And like the quote the other day where he came out and just like saying that he had to look in the mirror. I don't think that was a Sintel quote. I think that was a real quote, which is the part of the inherent, like, humor of, of the DeAndre Ayton experience. Like, did he say that? I just think that any other player, if they had the ups and downs that he had, that would be one thing. And I think people would be, you know, frustrated or whatever it is. I just think the fact that Ayton like, lets you be a part of his internal dialogue, I think that's really at the heart of it. It's like if he just said less.
- [14:25]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [14:25]
Kyle Mann
If he literally just said fewer things and we didn't have to hear him go through. Because every person is having those like, you know, dealing with their confidence or their lack of it, whatever, or getting motivated. It's just like ayton lets us be a part of that ride.
- [14:38]
Rob Mahoney
And I'm just, I wonder, I wondered
- [14:41]
Kyle Mann
if the percentage of frustration with him would be drastically different if he didn't. Because I try to. I've been just trying to keep that in mind with him of just like he's just letting me be a part of the ride. I wonder how it'd be different if he didn't.
- [14:53]
Rob Mahoney
He's just James Joy sing the hell out of this season. And we got like the whole like Clint Capella thing going on. As far as like what his optimal role should be and we should say the quote you're alluding to is him telling Dan Woikie of the Athletic I just started looking in the mirror and said, you're not that guy. You don't need to be on this team doing that at all. That being, I assume, like scoring and creating this team. You came here to be the effort guy. And he hasn't always lived up to that. Not only is he having the internal monologue made external that you're talking about Kyle, but you can just see it ebb and flow on almost a game to game and certainly a week to week or month to month basis. As far as what are his priorities in this moment, what does he want to be doing on the floor? What does he think his greatest contribution is on the floor? And later, you know, lately it's, it just seemed more aligned with what the team actually does need of him, which is more of this rebounding, which is like good positional defense, just kind of holding down a spot, not doing anything dramatic or erratic and letting some of these other guys fly around and try to leverage that anticipation to the best possible effect. And if he's doing that, and I think Most crucially if LeBron is doing his version of that, which you talked about, Michael Pena's piece for the ringer up top. But really enough can't be said about LeBron settling into the lowest usage role of his career in this recent stretch of games in which he is purely a facilitator for what the Lakers are doing. And it just kind of illuminates this idea that LeBron basically, whenever he wants to be, can be almost like the greatest of connectors as far as what we have in the NBA right now. How much does he want to do that? How much is he content to continue to do that? It's easy to do on an eight game winning streak when Luka is like firing up everybody all the time, but we'll see kind of when they do Hit obstructions. Right when they do hit, you know, a couple of tough late season matchups or going into the playoffs. Where is LeBron's head as far as being locked into this, like, full on role player thing he's been doing of late?
- [16:46]
Kyle Mann
I've really enjoyed seeing. I feel like there are more moments where LeBron is doing less of the plotting. Like, I catch it, then I make a decision. We've seen him do more. Like I'm catching off of a loot. Like Lucas skips it to me and I'm already moving. I've seen him kind of be better about that. The whole like the jet sweep kind of thing is what I always call it. And then something that's really. I made up. Jet sweep. That's the way I've made that sound. No, I just. That's for the football to basketball thing there. But whenever, whenever we're watching, something that I've really, really enjoyed is there. There's a lot of like soccer, European brained basketball players on this team in key places. We know who they are, but like, they, they. Lucas specifically too is good at this. For as much as we think of him as the guy who's like, you know, doing surgery in the half court in transition, they have some really, really fun moments where I'm sure you've heard this, where I think it's a soccer thing where they say like the most vulnerable moment in a, in a game is the, the microsecond, you know, millisecond after a team has scored. There's a vulnerability there if you have smart players. And like, I feel like LeBron and Luca have found very fun synergy in some of those moments where, you know, Jokic is incredible about this team just scored. You think to yourself, all right, I have a break here to like take a second and jog back. Luka's like rifling inbound passes. But we've also seen more playmaking from LeBron. I feel like in transition too, like just getting him moving, getting it just less of the like, because he's not the same athlete that he used to be. It's like just get. Getting him more in a lather in the half court in transition. I feel like it's just kind of made them more fun and that. But I do think that that's something that could be more vulnerable in the playoffs.
- [18:26]
Rob Mahoney
Well, you could see him earlier this season, you know, when he was healthy enough to play and he, you know, played and kind of worked through the sciatica issues. In addition to you know, just the aches and pains of being a guy in your 40s trying to participate in the NBA. I can only imagine, but how much work it took to create any kind of half court momentum. And so he became, I think, pretty reliant on some of that transition game earlier in the year just to get downhill, right? Like, he would push immediately in that fraction of a second you're describing in the soccer parallel, just like get an edge so that he could get to the rim so he could create something. Because in the half court, it was so much like backup, rev up, try to beat the guy, try to muscle your way into an angle, get the shoulder like you. It just took so much work to create any kind of actual advantage that wasn't purely like brute force based in a half court setting. It doesn't feel that way. When he's working off the catch like he is, he is moving quickly, but also everything is so tilted towards Luka and even towards Austin Reeves at times right now that LeBron on the catch, then attacking and connecting dots. I mean, that's just fucking potent stuff. Like, that's really good offense and you, you roll that into, you know, he's had some, like, short roles out of the pick and roll with Luca, and he's just turning into like a supercharged Draymond Green. He said all of these moments where there's that idea of like, you should work smarter, not harder. And I think that's true. And he's working very intelligently right now, as he mostly always does. But working smarter has empowered him to work even harder in other areas of the game. It's not like a trade off of high effort or high intelligence. Working intelligently makes him a better defender because he has more energy for it, because he doesn't have to do all this creation. It makes him an even better contested rebounder. It makes him an even better connector in ways that he wasn't being utilized before with this team. So it's just, I feel like it's just worked in every possible way so far that it possibly could, which makes me both optimistic, but also inevitably, a little bit nervous.
- [20:17]
Kyle Mann
What do you think about. I, I was looking at this streak that they were on, and I was trying to notice if there was anything different about the, the way they were dividing their pie offensively. And I've noticed that there's a little more Luca isolation going on than in the past. I, I, I've tried to, like, figure out how, how that's like applying to. Is it just him, like going Superhuman and, and putting the team on his back and like putting up more points or how do you think that's affecting the advantages that are being created? Is it like. I guess, I guess if you're thinking about the types of help they're going to come for him in a one on one situation. Luca just. Luka really is the bowling ball on the bed sheet in terms of just like, if he, if he exists in the, in the half court space of a basketball game, he doesn't even necessarily need a ball screen. But I was curious to get your brain on that in terms of like, is. Is LeBron benefiting in that area too, even if he's not connecting?
- [21:12]
Rob Mahoney
Well, walk me through the visual there. Is that like a tempur Pedic mattress bowling ball, like pulling everything in? What is happening here?
- [21:19]
Kyle Mann
Well, I know that it's just the. Yeah. I mean there's a lot of. There's that diagram that they use for like the planetary thing, right? Where they like say that this, this bigger ball is like what's, what's a planet with a ton of gravity versus this smaller ball. Like, it's the, it's a gravitational sort of illustration for basketball. It's like Luke is a big planet in the half court. And if you sit, Luka, if you sit a basketball on like a tight bed sheet, you know he's going to pull things to him just because of his, his crazy dynamism in the way that he can score.
- [21:51]
Rob Mahoney
And it's only getting crazier. I mean, he, again, he is just taking every possible advantage against every defender that teams are trying to put in front of him right now. He feels like at this moment in time, the single most unstoppable creator in the league. That kind of belt gets handed around over the course of the year. But Luka has just been on a completely different level than anyone else right now. I do think it does help LeBron and I think some of it is LeBron has turned himself into not just an accessory to this offense, not just a spacer. Like, he is playing a role. He is playing off of Luca and Austin Reeves. But he's not catching to just like chuck up threes or to stand in the corner on that catch. He's activated like that. Like it is immediate decision making. Sprinting into the lane again, like helping the offense reorient around all this pressure that is tilted in a different direction by the defense. Like, that is just a really effective downhill stream for what the Lakers can be. Because if it's just Luka Isolation and like, you either get the offensive rebound or you don't. That has its limits. And that's where teams then start throwing different kinds of pressure at Luka and more and more kind of having to work in crowds or step back to survive. If LeBron is going this quickly on the catch, and Austin Reeves is another guy who's just an instant, like attack off the catch kind of creator in the first place, it's really hard to kind of batten down the hatches on all fronts when so many different guys are working that way.
- [23:14]
Kyle Mann
Well, there's an interesting thing too, where you would think by moving him to a secondary or tertiary kind of a role that you're. You're feeling less of his impact. But it honestly does a thing where it makes him harder to take away now because, like LeBron in like 2015, that he's had so many different eras, he's just. He's just like a. An interesting. Almost like an artist who just is like exploring genres and being great at one that he goes into. I'm trying. I'll have to think of like a good apparel, like an example of an artist that did that. But like, he. He's doing this now, like, you know, in like the. The 15, 18 era was like, okay, I may be not as like open court. You know, I'm like the most power. He still was one of the most powerful athletes in the world, but it wasn't as speed driven. He just became so powerful and strong. I guess that started in 13 when he started to do that. Like, you're not going to hit me, I'm going to hit you.
- [24:05]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yeah. Just full on bulldozer mode.
- [24:09]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, but it's like he could do that from a standstill. Like, all the eyes could be on LeBron. I just think about like the 18 finals when he, you know, put together, like the craziest performance ever. It was just like it didn't matter if it was in the open court, it didn't matter if it was in the half court. Yeah, he's just not that same player anymore. But it's like when you think about him now, it's like the eyes aren't all on him. They're on the younger version of him. Well, not of him, but a version of what he did with Luca. And it's like now that he's in that second role or third role, depending on how Reza is playing or however it's orchestrated. Yeah, it's like, it's harder to take away now because, you know, you can't load up on it. And that's a really crazy thing to see. And Pina made this point in the piece too, and I think it's true. It's like we've never really seen that before because he brought up the thing about like a, like a, the brain of like a player of his caliber being in that role. We don't really see guys get to this point of their career because I, I think about Kareem. It's like Kareem was still like a one, an isolation one on one score at like 40 years. We don't get to this point with players. So this is a really fascinating thing.
- [25:10]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, especially when you think about all of the resources that a team needs to put in just to account for Luka Doncic on the floor, right? Who you want guarding him, what you want your backline to be, what you want the help rotation to be. Are you rotating here? Are you xing out there? Like, how are you going to. How are you going to lock down Luca and all the shooters on the court? The idea that the people around him, and in particular LeBron, would become the unscoutable element, there's just like not a better basketball player, honestly maybe in the history of the sport at doing that thing than LeBron is in making sense of that kind of chaos. And so him putting himself in that role has just turned out to be clearly a great thing for him at this stage in his career, but also help the Lakers become the version of their team that just makes the most sense.
- [25:54]
Kyle Mann
I mean, it's easily. I mean, speaking to what we were saying, that there's never been anything like this. I mean, that implies what I'm getting ready to say. But like, Luka. Luka's never played with a connector like this. He's played with some pretty decent connectors, nectars. But it is a wild thing to plug what Luca does. Luca had a play, man. It might have been against Denver where they pretty aggressively iced him at like the hash mark. And what he proceeded to do, I rewound it. I don't even know how many times he was basically. It was almost like he let it happen. He. He does. He used to do this a lot. I'm sure he still does, but he was basically getting pressured back and he's backpedaling and it's a high trap. I don't even know if it was Gordon, but it was two of their bigger defenders and he seriously passed it from the right hash mark to the left corner on the money. And I'm I'm sure. I'm trying to remember who shot the shot. It might have been LeBron, but it was just a pat. That's just the kind of access that you're talking about. So if you think about that, is that the hardest possible pass you can make distance wise? Probably in the half court. And then you think about the fact that you, you've got a connector like LeBron just tacking on to that level of mastery. It's wild and I think it gives them a chance in a playoff series. You can't rule them out, man. I mean, they're at least going to make it really, really difficult to. To kill them.
- [27:13]
Rob Mahoney
It's made them just a much more enjoyable team to watch. It's made them certainly a more formidable potential contender in the West. We'll see how all that shakes out. I want to flip over though, to LeBron's hometown team, his former team, the Cleveland Cavaliers, who have their own moment here, if we're going to be honest about it. We talked about, you know, the Pistons losing Cade Cunningham for the indefinite foreseeable future with this collapsed lung and the opportunity that that has created as far as, you know, could the Celtics or the Knicks catch them for the number one seat? I mean, the unsaid part of that is there's also an opportunity here for the Cavs, who all of a sudden, let's assume that Cleveland kind of stays in that 4, 5 range. Their playoff route could look like, you know, the Toronto Raptors in round one, who are fine but imminently beatable. Especially if you're the Cavs, the Pistons with either with Cade Cunningham coming back from a collapsed lung or without Katie Cunningham or against a lower seated team that somehow upset the Pistons without Kate Cunningham, all of which feel within the Cavs power to beat. And then all of a sudden they could be a team in the Eastern Conference finals. And so what is it that you see or imagine or anticipating from the Cavs? Where do you think they are right now, Kyle?
- [28:25]
Kyle Mann
Offensively, they're a lot of fun. I mean, you have to kind of start with the, the Jared Allen thing. I think a lot is going to pivot on him and his ability to be back because it's interesting. You know, we talked about this at the, at the deadline where the Cavs were in this experiment of trying to balance the small guard potency that they had with Garland and with Mitchell and having these switchy wings like the Okoro experiment. Obviously we saw that clank out of, out of feasibility in the playoffs and then we saw DeAndre Hunter, kind of the same thing. They're trying to find these guys that can protect them and then make shots on the other end. And at some point it's just like, all right, we just need to get more of what we already have. And they just add depth at those positions like we talked about with Ellis, with Schroeder. I think the thing that is, that has come to light for me, you know, like, Mitchell's had an incredible year. James Harden is. Continues to be, continues to be good. It's. It's a funny, interesting thing in his career where his longevity is becoming this thing that's becoming a big argument for him and his durability.
- [29:29]
Rob Mahoney
He's a workhorse. Like, he shows up, he plays a lot of games historically, carries a lot of weight. Yeah, you have your questions about how he does it or whether he'll hold
- [29:38]
Kyle Mann
up, but he carries a lot of weight. Rob, what do you mean by that?
- [29:41]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I mean he's a load bearing member of the organization. That's what I mean.
- [29:46]
Kyle Mann
Yeah. But I think what is going to be interesting is in their leaning into that and they're hoping that Mobley is going to level up and do xyz. I think that they are going to run up against some vulnerability that could be a big problem with them. I think that Celtics game was a really interesting view into what that could look like because we were talking about the accountability that happens on a human level between like, you know, you think you're doing any job. I've had jobs where it's just like there's one person who slacks on this one thing and it interlapses, it overlaps with my job in some way and it builds frustration in them and it just builds up over time. And in a defense you could see that, like, where did I slack?
- [30:30]
Rob Mahoney
When did I piss you off? When did that happen?
- [30:32]
Kyle Mann
No, this, this is decidedly in the past. The different things that I've, I've. I've lived a lot of, you know, career lives, Rob. I've been. We can talk about it some other time. But already. But, but no, I mean, if you just think about if. When you watch the Celtics, I think they are an example of that accountability is just always there. Whether or not that's Joe Missoula, it comes, it comes down from the top with them and. But I'm just the gap help that is like lively and bouncy and the communication and the timeliness of it. I just think that. And then you add to the fact that they have, I think that's going to cause them problems. And then, you know, Mobley scoring one on one against Kada, I think could end up being a thing for them if, if he can't take kata. But the big creators that Boston has also, if they're going to offensively lean into this style, I could see that causing problems on the defensive end for Cleveland in a way that could come to a head.
- [31:28]
Rob Mahoney
Makes total sense. In some ways. It's the, the classic Cavs problem just kind of lingering over them these past couple seasons of who do you plug into those spots to try to solve that particular issue? And it's been the Celtics who've been kind of the boogeyman as far as those sorts of matchups go. We should say they have a bunch of guys who are kind of like day to day, in and out of the lineup right now. You mentioned Jared Allen among them. They also just got Max Strus back for basically the first time all season. I put it to you, is it a coincidence Justin Verrier leaves the podcast and Max Stru returns?
- [32:00]
Kyle Mann
Just asking questions, Just kind of look like Sebastian Stan?
- [32:05]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I think they're all in a, in a word cloud that's like there's a Pokemon evolutional chain, okay. Of Justin and Sebastian Stan and Max Cruise. I don't know who evolves into who. We can figure that out.
- [32:16]
Kyle Mann
Acting talent.
- [32:16]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I think Justin is the highest form. I think Justin is the charizard of that evolutionary chain.
- [32:21]
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- [33:40]
Kyle Mann
Protein is now at Starbucks and it's never tasted so good.
- [33:44]
Rob Mahoney
You can add protein cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes or matcha.
- [33:50]
Kyle Mann
Try it today at Starbucks.
- [33:55]
Rob Mahoney
But you know, other people may disagree.
- [33:57]
Kyle Mann
I'm sure they will. Yeah, Streuss being back helps. I mean we should mention Jalen Tyson has been, you know, fantastic, definitely developing him and has been great. They, they have not had the benefit of the developmental like they have not had the developmental benefit that Boston has had. It's just like few teams do. I guess they'll just. The Knicks have this going on too where I think that they could cause them problems with their length on the perimeter and switchability. That's the biggest thing that worries me with them at this point because it's just like I think they're going to score points. These teams are going to be there. I just like if, if the Pistons aren't going to have cater, they're not going to hit the max version of what they could be. Those two teams I think are going to be huge obstacles and I think they're going to, they're going to have to face one of them at some point.
- [34:45]
Rob Mahoney
It feels, yeah, it feels inevitable that they're going. Their path will run through one of those two teams. As far as the rest of this regular season goes in these next couple weeks, I actually do think the Cavs still have a lot on their plate. For one, as they get guys back, they have stre back, they will get Allen back, they will get, you know, Jay, Jaylen Tyson's been among those out as well. They're just gonna have to figure out who plays for this team because right now they just have a lot of like quasi rotation players who when you get to a playoff rotation there just might not be as much room and I'm thinking in particular of someone like Dennis Schroeder who you know, the more the, the more that the games matter, the more that Donovan Mitchell and James Harden are going to play and the more that those guys are playing, the less opportunity is there is for Dennis Schroeder and you know, like Thomas Bryant is an easy guy to just kind of acts out. You know, if you're going to play Mobley or Allen as your full time five for basically the entire game. I'm sorry. Thomas Bryant, you can exuberantly go to the bench and support and pop in for three to five minutes here and there, like, that's all fine. But even if you take those guys out of it, you've got whichever. Between Dean Wade and Sam Merrill is not starting. I assume one of those guys will continue to start. Keon Ellis. Max Drew, who has returned, and Jalen Tyson, who I think we found honestly really makes a lot of sense for this team coming off the bench, just in terms of what he can give you as a secondary creator there. But that's a lot of mouths to feed. You know, that's a lot of role players who you have to find time and space for. And I feel like we have a couple weeks here as the team finally gets healthier to sort of separate wheat from chaff or how, you know, however that expression actually goes. But there are decisions to be made.
- [36:16]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, definitely. It is wheat from chaff. I'd say that's a. That's another blind. I guess that's another.
- [36:20]
Rob Mahoney
I don't want to put it to you. It felt pointed for me to ask you directly, but I was hoping you would set me straight.
- [36:26]
Kyle Mann
I should come on the pod in a straw hat, chewing straw one day. Just kind of lean into the bit. Maybe bring a banjo with me.
- [36:33]
Rob Mahoney
Why not? So the.
- [36:35]
Kyle Mann
The depth. The depth proving themselves, basically, is what you think that. Or is it just who is going to be the depth? Do you think they just.
- [36:41]
Rob Mahoney
I think it's more that.
- [36:43]
Kyle Mann
It's just. It's too. It's too vague in terms of who it's going to be.
- [36:47]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think it's all very. Oh, I think there's two areas of vagueness. One, let's. Let's take the core of this team. Donovan Mitchell, James Harden, Evan Mobley, Jared Allen. Those guys to date have played 35 minutes together as a foursome. Someone has been in and out of the lineup basically at all times since they traded for James Harden. So we know that core elements of that group work right. Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. Those three have played together quite a bit. They work well to a point. They understand each other. We know that James Harden and Jared Allen have this very easy chemistry in the pick and roll. They connect in. In the logical way that James Harden is connected with any rolling big throughout his career. But all of them together, we've seen. Seen a little bit of muddiness in terms of the execution and the spacing and how it. How everything kind plays off in an additive way. So you have those big questions about the core of the team, and then it's like there are maybe like three to four spots in terms of actual playoff performers for these role players to assume Jaylen Tyson is going to be one of them. After that, it's kind of up for grabs as far as which of these other guys are actually like, fit for that particular challenge. And the sorts of matchups you're talking about in terms of who can guard up, who can guard bigger wings. Is Keon Ellis, who's a really good defender, too small to answer some of the. The calls that he's going to be asked to answer in the playoffs?
- [38:06]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, and it's interesting because, like, historically, the NBA playoffs are really not a place where unanswered questions get answered, right? Like, not really. I mean, it depends on if there are guys that are coming back. You know, we have established continuity. You know, maybe we'll see this with the Nuggets, but it's like if it's something we've never seen before. You've been doing this longer than I have. We don't really. I mean, we see, we see examples of guys seizing moments, to use your phrase, when we get into this, or young players who are like, are they going to, you know, like that, like Halliburton did last year? It's like we see examples of guys leveling up and maturing this as it. As it pertains to things coming together and locking into place when they haven't really. I don't feel like we see a ton of that in the playoffs, do we? Especially opposed to some of the more established things that they're going to be
- [38:58]
Rob Mahoney
facing, it's pretty unusual. And when it happens, it's usually monumental. You know, like when you think about the instances in which a team really cracks something in the playoffs that fundamentally changes who they are. It's something like the Golden State warriors deciding to put their centers on Tony Allen and basically changing the way the entire sport is played overnight. And it's less, you know, the Cavs all of a sudden find the exact perfect wing in the bottom of the bin of wings that they've been trying on all season in varying degrees. But the right of those wings, like the right one, the right option, does catch on at the right time, does start hitting shots when they may have struggled. Maybe it is a matchup based thing. Like you can catch a groove that can get you far enough. And I think, I think the Knicks, to be fair, are proof of that. They're A team that, over the last two years have had weird, chaotic, messy, regular seasons, and then they get in the playoffs, and there's, like, a clarity to the way that they operate. And there is a system and a style and a culture that they manage to lean into, despite all of the distraction and all of the noise and all of the, like, internal squabbling, frankly, that goes on with that team sometimes, and they just sort of figure it out. And I think the Cavs are less noisy in a lot of ways, but they still, they themselves do have a lot to figure out.
- [40:11]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, it seems like it's. Yeah, we could see these things get answered, I guess, in the next 10 games, because it varies, nine or 10 games, depending on which team it is and the schedule. But more often it seems like a realized thing getting into a situation where it gets tested. And then the testing, you know, reveals, you know, whether, like, the warriors is the example of this thing that was good, like some schematic, like the Thunder in the. In the. In the Finals, you know, they were tested. They do a little tweak, a little recap, like, in terms of, like, personnel locking in together in finding synergy. It's more unusual, but like you were saying, maybe. Maybe that's what speaks to what we're talking about. If they can, we'll see. These next 10 games are going to show how much they're able to prove and get closer to that goal because it. It's. It's an uphill climb, man, when it. Whenever it's like a personnel thing that we haven't seen, as opposed to, like a schematic tweak with the personnel that we have seen. Yeah, it's tougher, but I don't know. These are talented players at the front of this, so it's. It's possible.
- [41:14]
Rob Mahoney
Well, let's go to another of those scenarios with personnel that we have seen, and that's the Houston Rockets, who are good, but also good in a way that is maddening and good in a way that I just constantly wish more of them. I wish that they had more ironed out by this stage in the season. And Chief chief among those objections, Kyle's just like, literally, who is going to play starting with. Who is going to actually start these games for them? And Reed shepherd has been starting of late for them at, I mean, point or however you want to define his position within that weird ecosystem. And Eme Odoko was asked about this of, like, is this going to be the ongoing starting lineup for the team going forward, the playoffs Again are just a couple weeks away. And what he said was like, I mean, basically the most non committal version of we're going to kind of sort of look at it and maybe sort of depend on it going forward that you could possibly get, which is really been the IME Udoka experience with Reed Shepherd. I know this is an emotional and maybe religious issue for you, given that Reid is involved. But, but to me, it's honestly less of a Reed thing and more of an Eme Odoka thing. Like I, I wish he would have given this version of the team more opportunity to this point. But the trade off for that is we're now going to maybe see a version of the team that we haven't to date and that hasn't therefore disappointed us to date. As far as who the Rockets feel
- [42:34]
Kyle Mann
like they could be, I mean, the, the first reaction that I have is, is just that they just don't have a choice at this point, you know, And I, I guess basically Rockets fans have gotten to this point already. Well, were having this conversation. It's like pretty hilarious to just observe their dialogue. They're just, they seem pretty frustrated with IME and IME is a man of, of principle, putting it mild, mildly in terms of, in the, in terms of like how he likes to play his teams and what he'll put up with defensively. And I've seen him, you know, as great as Reed is and as beloved as he is, I think within that organization, I've seen he may get pretty livid with some of like the turnovers that Reed. Reed loves. Reed loves to turn the corner on in a pick and roll and then jump past to the, to the next pass and it gets intercept. I haven't studied his turnovers, but I've noticed that one happening a lot. They just need the spacing, man. I mean, if you look at, if you look at them talking about trying to balance things, you know, like Cleveland trying to balance their offensive output with the defensive thing they're going to be coming up with, it's the, it's the inverse with the Rockets. For them to be busy, big and physical, to have Tar Easton out there, to have, you know, Clint Capella is not what he used to be, but you know, filling in there for Stephen Adams, however he can just for them to get their big physical wings out there that are spatially challenged, you need a gravitating, a gravitational shooter out there. You need. He's the best. He's the second best shooter on the team behind kde. He's the second best, I think probably decision maker behind kd. I mean, Amin is a pretty good one too. They just need him out there to, to just to. To oil the. Oil the gears, man. I mean, it's. It's so tough when he's not. I think you just have to live with it and then figure out the off season. Try to figure out how to answer some of these questions, man. Because if they don't start him and lean into him, this is a short Runway. It may be a short Runway anyway, but they, he. He has to play more.
- [44:20]
Rob Mahoney
And I say that even with the full acknowledgment that Reed shepherd is a very imperfect player and sometimes can be a very frustrating player, I. I'm not immune from the frustrations that also clearly afflict Ma Odoka. And watching Reed shepherd play defensively, he's going to be a liability at this stage. The turnovers are a real part of his game. There's some times where he just feels like a little swallowed up by the pressure of the defense, like as any young guard would be. That's a very normal part of the process. I think what makes me more frustrated than that is the idea that the way that Ima, who's coached this team and run this team over the course of the season is like, what is best for the Houston Rockets this week and what was best for them this week for the vast majority of the season was like really leaning into Tari Eason, who was leading the league in three point percentage at one point. You mentioned, like, I mean, we have raved about his defense and his disruption on this podcast for years and years and years. He's been one of the most impactful defenders in the league for a long time. He also, over the last month has made three three pointers in the entire month of March, he went seven games where he did not make a single three. He has just gone like, I mean, regression to the mean. An absolute bitch. And it's just been hitting him in the worst possible way at the worst possible time. Well, I guess the playoffs would be the worst possible time, but this one doesn't feel very good. And all of which is to say if this had been a team that was kind of like slow burning the Reed shepherd with the starting lineup experience all the way through, I think it would be in a better and fundamentally different place than it is now. Like, if it had been run as an experiment of like, this is the team we need to get to by the end of the season and not the One that has to work today. The allowance for that, I think could have just opened up totally new possibilities for the Rockets. But instead of we get Reed starting, I think his like fourth game with this like other starting four basically of the entire season and hoping and praying that it works enough to bail out the entire offense.
- [46:15]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I, I agree. And I think the additive stuff is, is worth, was worth having out there from the beginning. I mean, it's not just him having the ball, obviously. I mean, it allows. If they're going to be big, you'd rather play big four on four and open space, you know, because if you watch them, it's just like when Reed's man can't take us. It was funny to watch like Nikhil Alexander Walker the other night, watch the action and be like, this is probably the furthest I could take a step away because Reed shot as small as he is, is, is really quick. But just Reed being out there opens up driving lanes. Whether it's for a man, you know, it's just the benefits go beyond and he's going to get picked on, man. I mean, in the playoffs they're going to go after him. I mean, when he was out there, there was like a real pit, pitbull, seize puppy dog thing going on with Luka. He wanted Reed in every single action because he know, he knew that he was going to be able to throw over the top of him. Reed Reed gives a lot of extra effort. He has a lot of technical tools, despite being six foot one that like his. I noticed this at Kentucky a lot. It's like his dig technique is really, really good. Like when he gets in there and digs on the ball, he comes away with it a lot. He's a much better leaper than I think people expect him to be. You know, Onyeka Kongwu found that out the other night when he thought he was just going to stroll for a dunk. And he looked around like, what the hell? Just reach, reach. Shepherd just, just humiliated me. I think they're just added benefits there that you might as well lean into because again, circling back to it, I just don't think they have any other choice.
- [47:45]
Rob Mahoney
I think that particular dynamic you mentioned about having him on the floor and the way that that makes the handling easier for everyone else is just so crucial for them. And I want to fully acknowledge, like, there's so many things that have happened to the Rockets this season that are just squarely outside their control. Losing Fred Van Vliet changed the course of their entire year. Losing Steven Adams then again changed the course of their entire year. So they've had to roll with a lot of punches, but they are a non traditional team and they were going to be a non traditional team basically from the jump, basically from the moment they knew they weren't going to have Fred, they were going to have to navigate this and the amount of ball handling that KD and Alpert and Shangoon have to do, like you need to give those guys as much relief as possible on the ball as far as the pressure that they're going to face. And so the combination of having Reed on the floor as a ball handler himself and having him on the, on the floor in a way that makes that relieves the attention that KD and Shengoon will see as ball handlers themselves. It's just the kind of thing that's really hard to replicate and it's what I think puts Reed into a different category of the rotation as far as yeah, he's not perfect. Yes, he had comes with these caveats on defense, but he does something for you that Tari Eason, with all due respect, like just cannot do, just will never do. And I think the faster that the Rockets lean into that the better. But at this point it might be too late as far as what they can reasonably do this season investing in that group because there still is a lot to figure out as in how to make Reed man, like manageable defensively with that other core four.
- [49:15]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I think we're at the point where it's a question of how interesting can they make a series because I really do you see them winning ah,
- [49:24]
Rob Mahoney
series at this point I, I think a series would be kind of the ceiling. Yeah, especially just like maybe it would be a different conversation if they were at a different place in the standings where they were going to be playing against, you know, a potential playing opponent. But right now they're going to be in that like four or five mix probably with the Nuggets and I, I would be hard pressed to find anyone who's going to be picking Houston over Denver in a series like that.
- [49:47]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, they're. They're going to be able to load up in the air because it's like, like obviously every team needs the paint, but it's like the KD loves to get to the, both the slots. He likes to get to the elbows and he, he's not as kinetic a shooter and a mover as he once was. You know, he always kind of had a hard time like embracing that idea that I'm just Kinetic all the time. Obviously, that, you know, tied into some of the frustrations in Golden State, that he didn't necessarily want to play that way. It doesn't have to play that way, frankly, because he can just shoot over whoever he wants. But if you watch them without Reed on the floor, just the hugging of the paint, especially with Shingoon in there, it's like those two together just operate in similar markers in. On the same film set. You know, it's just like, this is where. This is where I stand. Oh, this is where. You know, it's just kind of. And. And that is really tough if you don't have somebody out there that draws respect. Because if, like, if Tari Eason clears the side from one side to the other, you know, one corner to the other, I'm just kind of watching them. I'm like, okay, I'm kind of. I'm all right with that. Like a man. A man cut into the basket, I'm worried about that. But him moving laterally beyond the arc, you just need somebody to make it a little bit more interesting. And their options are just so thin on that front. I don't know. It's just why they become so stagnant. The vibe shift on Shingoon, I feel like, has been pretty dramatic over the course of this season. What do you attribute that to?
- [51:06]
Rob Mahoney
It's been tough. I mean, some of it is with an offense that's already this kind of spatially challenged at times and feels like a little clunky because of their size. The dip in his shooting has just had, like, a profound effect on what he can do on the floor. And so when he's. When he's already kind of suffering from some of the shooting woes and then the turnover problems start to come and, like, the weird start and stop navigating through traffic, aspects of his game aren't as productive as they used to be. I just think it really, really hurts them. Like, they are just so dependent on Kevin Durant being maybe the best person in the world at exactly what he does, and he's basically delivered on that prompt all season. And Alper and Shangoon making, like, chicken salad out of chicken shit. Spacing wise on an ongoing basis. That is a bit more come and go that. That's a little bit more like it. Re. When they struggle, they really, really struggle. That combination is incredibly tough to manage. It's yet another way where just, like, a little spacing might have helped, but when it's clean, like when you get, like, the tic tac toe actions where Sengun is like catching in the middle of the floor and then dotting Ahmed Thompson cutting baseline. That feels like a really good version of a team that we may eventually see. It's just not one we see with any kind of regularity right now.
- [52:19]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, and it's, it's tough because you know, these, these great Katie years as, as long as he's been able to be good, it stinks to, to be in the mindset of just like, you know, we're probably going to ride this out and then just have to run it back and figure out what the next iteration of it is going to be. Is Kevin going to run it back and be great again? Probably. But it's like, like, you know, the, the clock's ticking and, and that's a, that's a painful spot to be in after the, after the, the, the energy where it was earlier in the season and maybe, you know, Van Bleet not going to play this year. I mean, I don't think so. He's not going to try to play, is he? I haven't heard anything to that.
- [52:53]
Rob Mahoney
It's been a long time since we even heard those whispers, but I, I guess crazier things have happened.
- [52:59]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I given it the full year is, is, is good. You know, it's hot take. But I just think him coming back, I mean that'll be one built in thing that'll help next time they run it back. Granted, I don't know what he's going to look like, but yeah, it stinks to be in that mindset. But it's, it's. That's. Them's the brakes.
- [53:20]
Rob Mahoney
Rob Mahoney, he's really important to a degree where this is a team that added Kevin Durant and might win fewer games than they won last season. I think there's a couple of supplementary reasons for that, but just a crazy turn of events that I don't really think it's Kevin Durant's fault. And I think we can use him as a pivot point into a larger conversation too about what is happening from like a league wide awards standpoint right now where KD is among these players who has like not really missed many games, locked in, in no danger of violating this like 75 game requirement that has now become the talk of the town and it basically every, every NBA circle, but there are a lot of really high powered stars who are either in 65, right?
- [54:01]
Kyle Mann
Did you say 75?
- [54:02]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, sorry, I meant 65. Regardless.
- [54:04]
Kyle Mann
I was 75. God damn it's. Getting brutal out here.
- [54:07]
Rob Mahoney
Inflation is crazy. Don't even get me started. Yeah, the 65 game requirement, which there's a number of stars who are already fully disqualified from registering for any NBA awards, including all NBA in particular, is the one that I think we should focus on today. So that includes Giannis Santa Kounpo, ineligible, LeBron James, Steph Curry, Devin Booker, Joel Embiid, Jimmy Butler, Jason Tatum, of course those guys are not going to be making an all NBA team because they literally cannot make an all NBA team. Kate Cunningham, Booker's at 56.
- [54:40]
Kyle Mann
How many games do the Suns have left? Is he out of the window?
- [54:43]
Rob Mahoney
Booker is actually a great case study because as we are recording this, he has played 56 games and the Suns again as we're recording, have 10 games left. In theory he should be able to hit 66. The problem is two of those games he played came with under 10 minutes which not only don't qualify as like a game played for awards purposes, but don't even qualify as like the nebulous range where the NBA will kind of give you the benefit of the doubt. There's, it's a whole thing. But Devin Booker will not be making an all NBA team as a result. The two that I think are worth monitoring and we've been talking about and around recently, Kate Cunningham who might not come back with enough time to qualify, Anthony Edwards who also might not come back in time to qualify if both of those guys aren't eligible for awards. I think it just dramatically changes how representative the all NBA team can be of what this season actually was. But we continue apace. We have to fill these teams, we have to make sense of it and it creates like a lot of weird opportunities for guys, especially on the third team, you know, as we kind of move everybody up the list that probably never thought they would make all NBA that all of a sudden are really in contention.
- [55:49]
Kyle Mann
Kyle I think it's entering this group of this, this bad pantheon of asterisk sort of markers in history where we're like oh, you know, so and so shot 42% from the three point line in 1994 or it's like the co, you know, the COVID thing, the. I know that's a sensitive subject with people but. Or the lockout years, things like that. Just weird. It's, it's an unfortunate thing. I wish we didn't have to do it but yeah, I mean there's some guys that have, I mean Jamal Murray I think is one of the more interesting ones probably Having the best year of his career. Right. I mean he's 28 years old, hitting his prime peak of his powers. He's assumed some of the space when Jokic has been out, you know, fairly well. Isoed mortar in those plays during those times. Shot the ball really well. It's a pretty. And also just on the, you know, you know, you're a writer. It's a feel good story on. We were writing him off at one point. There was a time where, when he stunk in the Olympics.
- [56:48]
Rob Mahoney
Let's not we. Let's not we. That one.
- [56:50]
Kyle Mann
I've always, I've.
- [56:51]
Rob Mahoney
I've always been in the bunker. You know, I've been, I've been prepped. I've been ready for the hard lean days. I'm just, I was just trying to get through it until the time where I could emerge into the Jamal Murray son yet again and, and celebrate as we have been all season.
- [57:05]
Kyle Mann
Really chewing on the jerky down in the bug down in the bunker, you know, just trying to, trying to stay lean and not, not absorb a lot or consume a lot of resources.
- [57:14]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know.
- [57:15]
Kyle Mann
I've always feel. Felt like I've been on this corner of having to champion how good Jamal was. Obviously saw him here and saw how just talented he is as, as a movement shooter, as just a bucket getter, just tough as nails in big moments and things like that. But it got to the point where he, you know, he didn't need championing as much just because he won the title. He. Look, I, I think we circle back though, where it was, you know, when he had that tough outing at the Olympics and he wasn't looking good and they were legitimate. I mean, you hear, you would hear people just be like, is this just. He's not that dude anymore. It's been nice to see him do it again. And I mean, where do you think though that's going to turn out in terms of like where he falls on these teams? Is he going to make one of the all NBA teams or where is he on your list? I'm curious.
- [57:58]
Rob Mahoney
I think he might. And I would say that not just because he's doing it again, but he's doing something we've never really seen him do before, which is sustain this level of play over an entire healthy regular season. That it's been incredibly impressive. It's been, it's a huge reason why the Nuggets have even survived to the ability that they have. And they've had a strange campaign all their own. But he's been one of the consistent bright spots among them, I think. Well, let's put it this way. I think there, there are some guys who are just like going to make a team and you can quibble with where you want to put them for second or third. Jokic, Kawhi and Victor Wembanyama are all within two games of becoming ineligible. So something to monitor over these last couple of weeks for sure. If they have any kind of ankle tweak, any of those guys could fall off the board immediately. But I'm going to assume all three of those guys, plus Shay and Luca, plus Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Maxey, Jalen Brown and Kevin Durant I think will make a all NBA team. On all NBA team third team is where things get a little wild and that's where I think Jamal Murray has a really compelling case and an increasingly bolstered one just by the lack of competition because of the people who've already been kind of pruned off the board here. I also think Jaylen Duran has a good case now. James Harden could have an outside case and we talked about him as one of those guys who did not make the All Star team but honestly could make all NBA given the lack of competition in some areas. Jalen Johnson, with how well the Hawks have been playing over these last couple weeks and Chad Holmgren I think will get a nice number of votes too to potentially make all NBA. And that's jumping over, you know, your Rudy Go Bears, your Bam out of bios, your cats. Like there's a lot of guys who have been in the mix, but I think some of this other class is going to be in consideration in a way that they just weren't before.
- [59:41]
Kyle Mann
How many times in history has someone made all NBA but not made all Star? Has that?
- [59:48]
Rob Mahoney
It's happened a handful of times, but it's, it's increasing.
- [59:51]
Kyle Mann
You know this.
- [59:51]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I remember one of the most recent ones. I think demonic Sabonis did it. He's another guy who like does not get a lot of all star love but then would wind up in particular if there were a positional requirement as like a third team center or something like that. I want to say Dame maybe did it one time or. But yeah, it's, it's a, it's a weird thing. Usually there has to be some kind of like late push involved and Harden I think got tagged with a lot of what the Clippers were struggling with early, even though he was kind of playing pretty well for just a bad team. His circumstances changed. He got to ride the wave of the Clippers being good again. I think there's just been, like, enough shift in goodwill where he actually could make this team. But Evan Mobley might also have a case. Like, it's. It's a bit of a muted season for him, but. But if you believe in his defense, why wouldn't you consider him for all NBA third team?
- [60:40]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, it's interesting the. That winning is unsexy. That's. That's kind of one of the lessons we're learning. But it has to be the late push part of it makes it seem like it would be more possible. Like you were just saying, where did Kawhi fall, like in the. Cause I was looking at his. He'd have to play. He'd have to play 10 in a row. I know he's. He missed two of the last four.
- [61:02]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [61:03]
Kyle Mann
Is it. Is he in the minutes. Is he one of the minutes guys too? Because. Because it'd be a shame. It's like, I doubt that they're motivated that considering the situation that they're in. And I'm sure. I doubt Kawhi really cares. I don't know. I'm just guessing, but it seems like if he played the next in the. You know, the quality of his play would. Where is it? Where is he in there? Is he gonna make it? I guess is the question.
- [61:22]
Rob Mahoney
So he has one more game to miss, and the Clippers only have one more back to back the rest of the season, which. That might be a natural spot where he could end up missing one of those games, but he also just needs to get, like, consistently healthy at. To coast out the rest of the way. It's not as simple as just pushing hard. I don't know that he has as much to gain as some of these other guys do, though. Like, you know, some of these younger players, some of the ones who either are trying to hit their contract incentives or trying to qualify for the greater max. All of that stuff makes sense if you're Kawhi Leonard. I. I don't want to say you're unimpeachable, but people know who you are, People know what you're capable of. And one more all NBA team on your resume, I don't think is going to dramatically change that.
- [62:00]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I doubt he's super motivated to do that, but, yeah, Lord knows he's not hurting for. For extra income or anything like that. Right.
- [62:09]
Rob Mahoney
I think he's got enough on the side. You know, you want your passive streams. That's really important is what for sure.
- [62:14]
Kyle Mann
For sure. Definitely.
- [62:15]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Well, there's a lot of chaos here. There's a lot to sort out as far as who is even going to be eligible for all NBA. Who makes sense, who's going to be coming on strong. I would say that chaos pales only in comparison, Kyle, to whatever the fuck is happening in the middle of the Eastern Conference right now, where we have the four teams we kind of know are going to be there, including the Cavs, who we talked about, who feel pretty. Pretty cemented as the fourth seed after that, I really couldn't tell you. And it kind of changes day to day and game to game and what's up is down and what's left is right. And you think this team is finally turning around, but they're not. And you think this team is in the gutter, but they find a new spark of life somewhere. In theory. There are two guaranteed playoff spots here for the teams that end up in fifth and sixth place. Do you feel great about any of these groups, or is there any one in particular that you're hoping or looking for to prove something over these last couple weeks to kind of cement their spot as a fifth or sixth seed in the east in a vacuum?
- [63:11]
Kyle Mann
I look at these teams and I'm like, at full strength, it'd be one conversation. There are so many guys that are just in question right now. If you're looking at just the playing games that make it such a wild. It's a wild thing to try to even predict. I mean, like the Magic at Franz and Anthony Black and Jonathan Isaac, which, you know, we've been saying that that's just. I don't know, I need some kind of automated thing, so I don't have to say Jonathan Isaac is not on a timetable, but those guys are out on a timetable. Maxi's out with a tendon energy. Really sucks. Cause I was a huge. Jonathan Isaac, like, I was a big champion of his game. It's just. I've hated the way that it's gone. Did you want to jump in? You.
- [63:51]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, just. I think with Maxi and the Sixers, I mean, they are just, like, injured to a degree where they. They just lost Don Dominic Barlow the other night. And I'm like. Like, they simply can't go on. Like, they're just gonna have to start forfeiting games at a certain point. And yet they've been winning more than the Magic have lately. They've been winning more than the Heat have lately. So I. I just really don't even know what I'm supposed to believe about any of these teams being anything resembling, like, a legitimate threat right now.
- [64:20]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, it. It's hard to know. Yeah. And beat out with the. With the oblique. Something that's interesting here is that, you know, the Hornets and the Heat are like a game apart. I think where that game is played, I think is something that is. Could be really interesting because in these last 10, if the Hornets can really outperform the Heat and get that game at home. Yeah, I don't know where. Where that game is, I feel like, is granted, these teams you're talking about playing games, you're talking about playing teams who inherently just. They. They have flaws. It's kind of the. What's. What's built into this conversation. But if the Hornets could get that game at home, I feel like that could be a pretty interesting outcome for them as opposed to playing. Cause the Heat got him at home also, so.
- [65:01]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know.
- [65:02]
Kyle Mann
Charlotte playoff basketball charged.
- [65:05]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, Charlotte has been better for longer than basically any of these teams at this point. And if they weren't the 10th seed and if they hadn't dug themselves such a hole early, we might just be talking about them as one of these teams were ushering, you know, past the. The playoff barricade, just, you know, like, lift the rope and get these guys in there. As it stands, I think they're probably going to make it through the play in, like, they. They seem like they've played up to that standard where I would probably take them in a competitive game with their season on the line over a team like the Heat or the Sixers, given what Philly's dealing with. But it's going to be hard for them to even get out of 10. Like you're saying, like, they're just trying to up, you know, get. Get a leg on the Heat so that they can host one of these games, much less get through two of them to the point that they can make it to the playoffs. But these are the standards at this point. Like these. These other groups have all had, like, such dramatic ups and downs. I think the. The Magic are one where, like, I. I really think they have enough going where they should make it, but we keep saying that and we keep hoping on, like, hoping on it and depending on. And it's just not there. The one game that I think could be disproportionately important is that there's a head to head Atlanta and Orlando remaining in this season. And it's like that could literally decide who gets the six seed like that? A game like that, given the stakes and how closely bunched all these teams are, feels just like wildly important. Especially I'm just kind of, I am assuming Toronto, which has settled into just like a comfortable, at least maybe comfortable, from my perspective, uncomfortable. If you're living and dying with that team, kind of mediocrity, will just sort of end up with either five or six and then the other one will be up for grabs. I think it's going to be whoever wins that Atlanta, Orlando game, to be honest with you.
- [66:45]
Kyle Mann
That's pretty fascinating. Down this for as much as we like Billy Ache about, you know, stats in March and things like that not mattering or just March being a time where it's like very, very risky to stake any kind of an argument on what goes on during this month. But I mean, yeah, you're right because it's like they're clustered here where, you know, Raptors at 39, Hawks at 39, Heat at 38, Hornets at 37, Sixers at 39, Magic at 38. This could boggle into any order. And I don't know that it would totally surprise me.
- [67:19]
Rob Mahoney
Is there, is there any team that you want to see there? You know, when push comes to shove, when playoff spots are guaranteed, like, who do you want to see in a seven game series?
- [67:28]
Kyle Mann
The teams, I mean, the teams that I want to see get out there and get a chance to learn something. I mean, we've seen the Magic. I just feel like need to run it back again just because if we can't get everybody.
- [67:40]
Rob Mahoney
We keep saying that though.
- [67:42]
Kyle Mann
It's like, how many, how many times
- [67:43]
Rob Mahoney
can we do that?
- [67:44]
Kyle Mann
These, these, these things that we're running back are on contracts and these things are finite and they are going away. It's just like it gets, it doesn't get any easier, you know, with these teams. I think the Hawks have weirdly become more interesting to me just because I would like to see. And they're going to push forward because they're going to have a pick regardless. And then, you know, I hate to be just repetitive on what we've said all year. Just this Hornets thing is just, yeah, I want to see it, man. I feel like that's just become the rallying cry of the ringer lately. Just because there's. They're so fun. I just want to see them get some, have some questions answered. I want to see them get the, the. I want to see them get a return that gives them a clear blueprint of where to go forward. So we say they need this to level up.
- [68:30]
Rob Mahoney
I don't even think it's repetitive. Although, look, we've been saying it for a while, and you're right, it is in our larger ringer orbit, a very common stance to take, but it's also earned. And I think that's the fundamental difference between some of these teams, is you look at what the Hawks have done lately and you're like, that's a team that I think has kind of done the work to kind of punch their ticket to, if not make the playoffs outright as a fifth or sixth seed, at least be in good position for the play in. And the Hornets are another one of these teams where they've just been impressive for long enough that you want to see them get their shot. And wouldn't that be more exciting in a lot of ways and more interesting and more revelatory in terms of what we're actually learning about these teams? Then let's just put the Miami Heat through the paces of another playing game with more or less the same roster. Granted, you know, slightly, a Norm Powell here, you know, like a. A. A slightly different situation, but ultimately, like, what is it that the Heat are going to prove in that context that they haven't already proven and that we don't already know?
- [69:24]
Kyle Mann
Yeah. Or, you know, or the Sixers, you know, dragging like, their broken foot like a zombie into a series and trying to, like, continue. You know, it's. Well, I. It's more fun narratively to see the thing that is on the upward ascension go and get, you know, answer questions as opposed to, like, can this thing that is hobbled and injured, granted, the fan bases of those teams, you can be in various situations. I personally have been in this situation where you get to the end of something that's been a slog and you just kind of secretly say to yourself, or maybe not so secretly to your. Your other fam friends, I want this to be over. Fans of the Sixers. And there. There is probably some of that going on. Like, I'm just tired of watching this team. I don't know if you've been in that. Your Longhorns are killing it, though, man. I don't know if you saw the end of that game. I'm not going to let you celebrate it or take credit or revel in it, but, you know, you have to be. Kirk was enjoying it. I'll let him.
- [70:15]
Rob Mahoney
But heck, I mean, hook him now and forever. You already know the vibes. You know, the one resounding tournament win for the, for the Longhorns of basically my entire adult life. So, you know, we're, we're thriving over here.
- [70:28]
Kyle Mann
Good for you guys. It's, it's, it's good to see.
- [70:31]
Rob Mahoney
It's good to see. I just wish again, it's like I'm open to any of these teams over these last couple weeks. Like if they can put together, doesn't have to be a Hawks esque run, like it doesn't have to be quite so dramatic, but just a stretch where you win, you know, five of seven games where all of a sudden it looks like you have your feet under you and you're able to have some momentum going into the play and in the playoffs. That's all we really want. You know, you don't have to be the Hornets, you don't have to be the Hawks. You know, the Heat have had moments for as much as I'm bagging on them, like they just reeled off seven straight and then lost four straight. So it's just, it's hard to make heads or tails of these teams right now. But if, if there's any room within the larger league landscape for just like a couple of hot weeks to catch on, like with a, you know, a hot, like a, like a goalie in the NHL kind of effect of just like you're good at the right time and therefore it has an outsized importance on your season. This is the place in the standings where it's going to happen.
- [71:23]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I mean we, we see it. I mean a run like the Lakers just rattled off or like with the 12 of 13. I mean it does happen. It can happen if there's teams and you have a lot of sort of dissenting or just sort of like objectives or things that are going in opposite directions and it really depending on. I haven't laid it out and looked at the schedules for these teams as opposed, you know, in opposition compared to each other. But that can work in your favor too. There's, you know, people shutting it down, people trying to get a pick. Definitely you have different. You have a differing agenda going in the opposite direction that could play into somebody's favor.
- [71:56]
Rob Mahoney
I think this is something that could be good fodder for our mailbag to have teams. If people out there who are listening feel very strongly, you know, you're not a Magic fan per se, but something about their season has endeared you or been endearing to you. I would love to hear that ring a group chat@gmail.com. like who, who are neutral fans pulling for in this morass of like, okay, team.
- [72:18]
Kyle Mann
That's a good. Yeah. Who, who are the neutrals interested in? Are you excited? You know, are we already there?
- [72:23]
Rob Mahoney
I just think we can do some polling. You know, we can really get some, some numbers in the field, try to understand where things stand. I just, I would like some clarity in the matter. But we, we did it today. Kyle. We're gonna be back for the mailbag on Thursday. Please get in all of your questions again, non tanking related questions to ring a group chat atgmail.com you're asking for it. But yeah, well, I, I'm just gonna start.
- [72:43]
Kyle Mann
Auto could just ignore them.
- [72:45]
Rob Mahoney
In fact, if you use the word tanking in your email, it might already be auto filtered to spam. So please don't even raise the idea of it. But thank you, Kyle. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia and Ben Cruz also for their production on this episode. We're going to be back Thursday. We're going to be reading your email. So come back and see us. 21+ and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino
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Kyle Mann
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Rob Mahoney
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Kyle Mann
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Rob Mahoney
For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.
- [73:44]
Kyle Mann
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