← The Ringer NBA Show
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- [00:00]
A
What's poppin? Logan Murdoch here. You know, the real, real ones here. Live from Los Angeles. Me, Logie, Bu. Not the two. Howard Beck and Raja Bell. We get into the discussion about the scandal that is rocking the NBA in the gambling front. Then we talk about. We do a Texas three step where we talk about Victor Wimanyama, we talk about Amin Thompson, we talk about Cooper Flag and the burden of leading an offense as a young player and playing out of position as a point guard. It was a really fascinating discussion. Roger got in his bag, he geeked out. Howard Beck, who is right next to me right now off camera, got into his little nerdy bag as well. It was very fun. And now it's time for us to get on a plane. So before we get out of here, Cliff, play the theme music. What's poppin Real ones? Logan Murdoch here, Howard Beck there. Raja is beaming in from wherever the hell he's at. It's the end of core week. I'm really tired. We got a lot to talk about. Talk about the gambling stuff that's permeating through the NBA right now. I'm going to talk about little rookies. How you doing, Howard? I know Raj is fine. He. He. He's out of bed. He's chilling, like, you know, he. He's fine.
- [01:23]
B
All right.
- [01:24]
C
Is on east coast time. So Raj is way more awake than you and me. Way more on this Friday morning.
- [01:28]
A
Yeah, bro.
- [01:29]
C
It's core week, which means we've been here with ringer friends all week, which means a lot of very long days of doing a lot. A lot, a lot of talking, which is why my voice is fried.
- [01:40]
B
Yeah.
- [01:40]
C
But we'll get through it.
- [01:42]
B
If y' all cry, what's the baby gonna do, man?
- [01:44]
A
God.
- [01:45]
B
We gonna start off the pot. Come on, man.
- [01:47]
A
That's the most well rested guy on the pod, man.
- [01:50]
B
Let's go.
- [01:51]
C
We've had a. We've had a great week. Raja. You should have been here. It's been a blast.
- [01:54]
A
Yeah, I know.
- [01:55]
B
I mean, you got you guys sending me, you know, snaps from the. From the pub, and you kind of.
- [02:00]
A
Got a little jealous, though, but not a lot. Not jealous enough to come out. It's funny because Raja, we. We got this whole rundown this morning about Raja. We. He. He showed his ass once again that he is the guy that's not going to show up, but definitely wants the invite. He was just like, yo, what's all the info on the court week? What's going on? What's up? Could a guy like me Go. Yes.
- [02:24]
B
I love what. Listen, listen, listen, listen. There's a way that something is said that you have to take into context. Like, those were my words. They were not laid forth as such. I simply asked, like, who goes to core week? Like, that's what I asked. Because I was just a little worried that it would be like, not a good look for me if I wasn't at core week and had been invited to which I then had to ask again, had I been invited to that? You told me yes. This was. These were purely like curiosity questions. I would say, though, that, you know, I enjoy having a beer with you two. So, like, if that was happening somewhere, like, you know, I want to sit with my dogs and have a beer, generally speaking, I'm okay not coming to court week. I was surprised to know that I was invited to that and very grateful that it's not being held against me that I'm not there.
- [03:12]
A
Absolutely not. But you did miss a night with me. Howard back. Cliff Jeremy also popped out too. So you would have.
- [03:18]
B
It would have always. Regrettable. I mean, I, you know, speaking.
- [03:23]
A
Speaking of regrettable decision making, let's talk about the gambling probe that has rocked the National Basketball Association. I will give the Cliff Notes really quickly. Chauncey Billups, Terry Rozier and Damon Jones have been implicated in two separate indictments by the Eastern District of New York. Bills was charged in connection with an illegal poker operation tied to the Mafia. Wow. While Rozier is accused of manipulating his performance during an NBA game to benefit illegal gambling. Jones also was one of the people charged in both indictments. The NBA has placed Chauncey Billups and Terry Rozier on immediate leave. Thiago Splitter is now the head coach, the acting head coach of the Portland Trail Blazers. Bills was in court on Thursday afternoon where he was arraigned. And this is just. I've been trying to wrap my head. I'll start with Howard and then get to Raja. I've been trying to wrap my head around what this means for the NBA going forward and sports in general. But all I keep going back to was it was only a matter of time before this happened in this league and. Or in sports in general. Right. And the NBA is the unfortunate position where this has happened now twice in a 25 year span. Right. And you were, you have. Both of you guys have the distinction of like, being around during both these types of these situations. I'll start with Howard. What are you in terms of, like, how we see the environment now? How is this the same as what happened in 07. And how is this different based on, like, how the league is being looked at in this environment?
- [05:18]
C
Howard so 2007, obviously, that's the Tim Donaghy case. So it's a referee. And to our knowledge, all these years later, it was still just one referee, or as David Stern called him then, one rogue referee. And so the league could at least rest on the idea that this was contained. Right? Whatever people want to believe about whether this was more intricate than that. And all this, the case was, and remains to this day, about one person who was caught, charged, convicted, sent to prison, now free again. But that was it. Tim Donaghy come and gone. Whatever damage was done, I think the league was able to kind of minimize and say this was contained. What's happening now in the wake of this case? And we're early, right? Like, this is we've barely had 24 hours to process this. And who knows how many more strands may, you know, come to light in the weeks and months to come because gambling is so now inextricably interwoven with professional sports in this country. It's so much easier to 2007, when Donaghy was caught, gambling wasn't legalized. There were no apps to just for people to just bet on their lunch break. And gambling, you know, it was, that was when it was still in the shadows. And we can get into why it's no longer in the shadows and how the league embraced pulling it out of the shadows. And the NBA wanted this. But the fact is you can have gambling scandals that affect the integrity of the league in a, in a world where gambling's illegal, as it was in 07, and when in a world where it's legal as it is in 2025. But this is far more extensive and I think far more perilous for the league in a lot of ways because it's multiple people in various capacities, and we may not know everything there is to know yet. So I, I, I think this is a very scary moment for the NBA and I think just for pro sports, period. Because as much as we were talking about, oh, the Clippers, Kawhi Leonard aspiration thing calls into question the integrity of the league because of cap circumvention and, you know, competitive balance and fairness and all this stuff. This, I'm sorry, that thing, nothing compared to this. You want to talk about what calls into question the integrity of the league and believability and fans faith in the competitive integrity of the league. This is, I don't even know how what the proportion is a gazillion times more. So.
- [07:42]
A
Yeah, you have the. You have a head coach of. Allegedly, you have a head coach of an NBA team with the mob in his pockets. That's scary in itself. And then you have. Which I think we kind of. We all feared when this was when, you know, the decision went down in 2018 in the Supreme Court. But you have coaches that are close to superstar players, like, you know, Damon Jones, who is tipping off people about people's injury reports to make bets in the middle of the day. And they're close into the team. Right. And then you're also having a guy like Terry Roger, which, you know, and if you put it up against what's happening with Chauncey Billups, what he's doing is like, you know, it's pretty. Not low level, but it's. It's not as extensive of an operation. He's just telling his friends, like, hey, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go out and at this time, and you make sure you bet on this. But all of that goes into question the integrity of the game, because I think the NBA and just like most sports, the allure of sports is it's the one thing where you go either earn a win or a loss, and when that is tainted, you have a lot of problems. Right. Cause that's why we go to sports. That's what separates at least sports from these professional sports. From something like wrestling. When you have a predetermined outcome already, it's entertainment. But this is real. One of the things I wanted to ask Raja is most of these, at least two or three of these guys are retired from playing the game. And one of the things that I was struck by this is. It seems like this is one of the things that happens when a retired player is away from the game, but his instincts aren't away from the, like, aren't away from the game. Right. Where he still has the same instincts that makes a successful basketball player, but he doesn't have. Or they don't. He, she. Or they don't have the outlet to do that in a. On the hardwood. How do you, as a retired player, like, still. I think that's just a constant battle to still keep that competitive energy in a constructive way as opposed to this. But like, what's the balance when you're a retired player to kind of keep that under control when you don't have the sport to kind of like, you know, regulate it?
- [10:18]
B
Yeah, I don't really see. I don't really see the correlation between like the retired player and not having a place to put that competitive energy. I don't see the correlation between that and then, and then, you know, the gambling of it all. I think there, there, there are plenty of guys that, that are looking for ways to kind of channel what, what we use for most of our life to get to that point. It, it doesn't manifest itself in, and, and, and you know, these type of ways. I, I, I just think as soon as, as soon as look such a weird thing to say. Like everything we do, all of our spots and stuff are for gambling, right? Like, like all of the reads that we do post, post, show or gambling. So like I, I don't, I want to tread lightly but as soon as the NBA said we're in bed with gambling because they wanted the money, you were headed to something like this. As soon as that happened you, this is where you were headed, right? Because you're just opening up the door for the possibility. Because, because we gamble on everything. It's like, I mean gambling was always a, a subculture of the NBA. You know, I've, I've made reference to being on flights and watching Blu Ray games and seeing dudes exchange a whole lot of cash. Like these aren't secrets. You know, there have been massive fights and, and, and, and team breakups because of, of gambling debts and stuff like that. So that you know, you, that's to some degree, you know, humans bet on things right? Like but, but the legality of it all. The, the, the, you know there's, there's a difference between getting eight guys together and, and, and manufacturing this big card game where there's money going on like and, and you're on a plane and then just being able to like hit your phone and put in a, a four, a four leg parlay on, on over unders points, assists, rebounds and, and, and, and you know, like there's a big difference between that and it, the accessibility, the ease with which you can get to it. You know, I can only reference, I've never, I don't gamble like that. Like I, I put in like a box on a Super bowl spreadsheet or something like that. But I don't place bets on, on games. It wasn't part of my culture growing up. My, my boys are growing up in a different culture. I've referenced on pods before where know I had to talk to my son Dia because he was coming home asking me about certain NBA players and, and the tone of what he was asking me sounded like he was gambling And I'd be like, yo, deal. What the. What the hell are you talking about, dude? And he has buddies at school that are gambling, and they come to him because they think he knows the NBA because I was in it better than they do. So he's helping them with bets. I had to scrub his phone, dude. Like, I scrubbed the phone looking for, like, know. Because he's telling me he's not betting. And I'm like, well, I'm. I'm going to find out, because this is how badly I want to keep you away from ever placing that first bet. Because once you start placing that bet, it becomes easier and easier and easier to place the next bet and the bigger bet and the closer to the line bet. And so it's a constant conversation in our house because they got buddies that do it. It's a pervasive culture. Like, dudes are putting in parlays. I get calls all the time, hey, man, who football? Like, because my son's in the recruiting football world thinking that I would know who's going to win the Arizona State, you know, Iowa State. Like, I don't fucking know. But, like, that's the world they live in. So as soon as. I'm sorry, this is a little bit of a rant, but as soon as our culture decided that it wasn't entertainment enough to just watch the games and pull for your team, that we had to incentivize it by gambling on every single part of these sports. This is where you were headed.
- [13:57]
A
Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I do want to actually get to Howard, because everything that he says is right, but the face of this right now is. Or not the face, but someone that has to figure out this to get. To get through this mess for the league is Adam Silver. Right. And this is something that, like, you know, he's dealing with a lot, and he has to tread a lot of needles, right. And balance a lot of things right right now. And for large part, you know, he had the scandal with Donald Sterling, right. And he nipped that in the bud as soon as that happened, but that was a completely different time. He's gone through the pandemic and trying to get the league and save the league in that way. Where is he at right now, Howard, in terms of his commissionership? And what does this mean for his commissionership and his tenure at this point?
- [14:51]
C
I mean, I'll say this. We need to hear from him soon, right? Aside from a statement that the NBA issued yesterday afternoon, it's Friday morning. We haven't heard anything directly from Adam Silver yet. I have no doubt that, you know, Adam, being a pretty conservative, judicious person, is going to wait to make a statement until after they know everything they think that there is to know. But I don't think you can just, you know, for lack of a better term, hide behind one written statement that you've sent out. Like, whether it's days or weeks, whatever, like sometime soon. I think we need to hear from the commissioner. And in part because, as everybody immediately noted in the wake of this, Adam Silver pushed for legalized gambling and for the NBA to be partners with the gambling companies. He wrote an op ed in the New York Times in 2014, not long after he'd become commissioner, replacing David Stern, saying it's time that we need, we, we should do this. He ends that op ed with this line. I believe that sports betting should be brought out of the underground and into the spotlight where it can be appropriately monitored and regulated. If you're the NBA, if you're Adam Silver, what you're going to say when he does say something sometime soon, I hope what he's going to say is listen as he did after the, in the wake of the John Tay Porter case, which was a hint of what was to come. This is why you do it. You, you legalize it so that you can then regulate it and have all these monitors in place, the gambling companies themselves and the league and law enforcement, when it's legal, you have more means to regulate and monitor, which is a fair position to have. Right? Gambling was happening before, right. We had a gambling scandal again in a, in a pre legalized gambling era, and who knows how much was going on that never came to light. Did all those mechanisms that are in place now that Adam Silver was talking about back in 2014, is that how we got here? Like that? You were able to catch this because of those measures and because of all the infrastructure in place now, maybe. So their defense will be, and it's plausible this was happening anyway. Chauncey's illegal poker games, alleged illegal poker games involving Chauncey, those things were going to be happening, you know, irrespective of the NBA. Right? That has nothing to do with the NBA. He's just an NBA figure. But the gambling stuff that Terry Rosier is being accused of, that Chauncey Billups is unnamed, but is referred to as co conspirator number eight. And it's pretty clear it's him in the Rosier case providing information to gambling elements ahead of time. That stuff could have been Happening regardless. Probably was happening back in the day, regardless. But still, the league has to acknowledge that it played a role in bringing us to this point where there's so much more gambling. Because I think, like, the pushback would be this. And we were having this conversation, you know, just amongst all our staff yesterday here, right, as our NBA team was meeting. There's so much more gambling now. It's so easy to do. So I would think it's fair to say that more gambling, more money in the system, more people participating, probably opens the door to more potential corruption and more people getting ens. Snared in it, having debts, needing to get out of them, whatever it may be, right? And so this, you know, there. There's a lot of vulnerabilities there. The league needs to address it. And this is a, you know, every commissioner has a. Various, you know, crises. They have to deal with things that test their leadership. And Adam has had several, right. And came through them pretty well. Right. Everybody applauded his handling of the Donald Sterling case. Everybody applauded his handling of COVID and the NBA bubble and a lot of other crises along the way. And each one in the moment always feels like, wow, this is. This is the one that will define your tenure, that will define your leadership, and that could alter the course of league history. Right? But this is the one, right? Like this. This eclipses everything that he's had to deal with so far. And it comes just a month or two after the. The Clippers bomber, Kawhi Leonard aspiration case, which is still going on, which is investigations going on that, like, all of these things can eat away at the integrity of, or the perceived integrity of the league. And yeah, the next, whatever, 8, 10, 12 months will ultimately, I think, define Adam Silver's tenure in a way that all those other crises that we went through, we thought would define it. They. They will. Those will be like, you know, sub chapters on the long Wikipedia page. This is the one.
- [19:34]
A
And it's also the one because this is like the first of the. Of the big leagues in America. This is the first big gambling scandal of this new era, right? Like, so that means everyone is watching, right? NHL is watching, NFL is watching. Sports At Large is watching, because this is the first scandal that we kind of all knew that was going to happen, right? And it's just going to be fascinating to see what happens because you're. I was talking. I was on Higher learning yesterday, and Van Lathan in front of the show said he didn't know if this was going to Be a big deal to the conspiracy consumer of the game. And I pushed back on that because the only thing that, you know, sports has is the perceived integrity that everything everybody is getting, they're winning based on their merit. And if things are happening like this and circumventing those ideals, then it's hard to have a league. Right. That's. That's what separates, like I said, this from wrestling. So gonna be fascinating to see. I don't know what's going to happen. We all don't know what's going to happen. So, you know, I think we could just. We could.
- [20:41]
C
We could leave it there. I will just say, like, the one saving grace for the league at this moment. And again, this is a fluid environment, and who knows what happens next, what shoes can still drop. There's no implication yet, I don't think of any games being fixed right. Right now, Terror is here providing information on prop bets of like, I'm going to check myself out at nine minutes with like, you know, a twisted ankle or something or whatever. And so now people can bet the under on his minutes played or whatever.
- [21:08]
A
But that just. What I'm saying is this opens the door to people even asking, like, well, if he's doing this, are they doing this?
- [21:14]
C
It's cor. It's corrosive and it. And it. It weakens the perception of.
- [21:19]
A
Of.
- [21:19]
C
Of the league having credibility. Right. So all of it is. Is problematic. But the saving grace at this moment is at least there is nothing to imply that Rozier or anybody else was actually trying to. To throw games and. Cause that when you get to that tipping point and when that becomes part of the conversation and part of the investigation and part of the indictments, like, you are in a much worse place than even where they are now. And where they are right now, to be clear. Very serious.
- [21:44]
A
All right, man. Let's take a quick break and we'll talk about what the NBA would probably prefer to be talking about right now. Victor Womenyama and the rookie and young player transition into the modern NBA. Okay, and we are back. And it is my time to gloat. You guys go. On the ringer.com, you will see that Logan Miles Murdoch picked Victor Womenyama to be the MVP of this season and his first game of the season against the Mavericks. My goodness, my goodness. 40 points, 15 rebounds and three blocks. Um, he looked like Prime Durant Prime, Kareem prime, everybody. Like, like six different legends all in one.
- [22:32]
C
That's fair.
- [22:34]
A
Yeah. Six or seven legends all in one.
- [22:36]
C
What would you say you might need seven just to actually then construct, like, the length and reach of him, but, yeah, it was incredible. Everything he did was incredible. The stat line almost doesn't even do justice to what it was like to watch that game.
- [22:49]
A
Yeah. Roger, what do you think of the game first off? What did you see? Were you scared? It was like, I would be scared if I was in the rest of the league. This shit looked nuts.
- [22:58]
B
Yeah, that's. That's. If you're. If you're aging out of the league, you're in your last little twilight of it. I mean, it's probably, you know, pretty cool. It's debatable whether the spurs are going to be able to dominate while your window is still open or while you're still there, but for anyone who's got a Runway, you have to be looking at that like, Jesus Christ, what is this? Because that's unreal. I mean, it's a. There's. There's nothing I can say that would do that performance justice. The. The. The ease with which he's able to do those things, the length, some of the balls that he's able to, like, turn over on top of the rim from angles that we've never seen people dunk from. Like, it's unfair. It's like a kid playing Real talk. It's like a kid playing on a Nerf hoop that is, like, uber skilled and way more talented than the other kids. And he's just going to outskill you and then stretch his arm out and then dunk from not jumping. That's incredible. The skill level. He's got you down on the mid post. He's working the midi fades off one leg, he's facing you up off reverse pivots, head faking you getting fouled, and baby windmilling backwards. I mean, Rosa, what was the play.
- [24:22]
A
Where you were like, no, but then.
- [24:23]
B
He'S got you out. Then he's got you out in space and he's.
- [24:25]
A
Has he.
- [24:26]
B
Has he tween, tween, tween. Step back three. Like that. That's a. That's a skill set. That's. I mean, that's a crossover skill set, man. You're. You're in. You're in. Paul Pierce, mellow all your great mid post work, guys area. Then you're also going to combine to your. You guys point, like, great center work. Then we're going to take you out there and we're going to go with the best ISO scores off the bounce, and we're combining all of those Skill sets at 7, whatever the hell he is. That's crazy.
- [24:56]
A
It's this. It's. Honestly, it's the seven. He's 75 doing this. You know, like, that's the bigger thing because all the skill sets that you have said, right? And I know you hate this word, but, like, guards have a. Like. Like a bag, right, where they can do the dribbling, they can do the fade away and stuff. It's one thing to be Jeff Teague's height and be able to do this right? And Jeff Teague was a really good basketball player, but when you're 75 doing this, it's nuts. He did a crossover heze into a jump shot, and it was crazy. I didn't know what to do. And one of the reasons why I picked out. And I'll get back to you, one of the reasons why I picked him to be MVP is because the people that he's compared to right now, they all made the leap third year and it seemed like the Kareems, the Jordans, the LeBrons. I think he could be just. This could be a season for the ages. And I know it's one game, but like, when you see the work and you see it in real time, it feels like the expectations aren't even high enough at this point.
- [26:01]
B
But so first of all, you guys play 2K, you create a player all the time.
- [26:07]
A
Like all 99. Yes.
- [26:09]
B
Yeah. But like, they typically. When you make certain builds, like on 2K, because I watch my kids do it, if they bless you with a ton of height, then you got to sacrifice somewhere else. Right? Like, or if they. If you're going to be small and super quick, then obviously you're not going to be great at doing some of the things that longer players can do. It has to give somewhere. His build didn't give anywhere, really. Right. If it give. If it gave somewhere to start, it was like his strength. But I mean, he looks much stronger, much more balanced. Like, he's on two feet way more often. Like he. He's becoming a problem in that world too. Like, that's where if you had a chance with him early, you would say, all right, but I'm just going to just try to bully him and just keep him off balance and try to, you know, he's got like these baby. These baby do kind of legs, so maybe we can, you know, force him off of his spot. I mean, the work that they've done in that regard has been incredible. But I just want to say again, very few people on the Planet can combine those different area on the court skill sets. Like, some people have two out of three. Some people can dance with the ball and knock down jumpers, and they can put you, you know, kind of in the mid post, face you up and play at a triple threat. But then if they get around the rim, I mean, they might be decent finishers, but, like, they can't just go over you all the time, you know, like, they. They got to be crafty. And. And this cat is blessed with three levels of just. You can't do anything with that because I'm too big and I'm too skilled for the people that are playing against me. It really is pretty remarkable to watch. I. I just really want to point out, like, where I think you're right, not just the skill set, because you kind of saw that and you anticipated him continuing, but his strength level now, his ability to stay on his feet, take bumps, finish through shit has come a long way.
- [28:04]
A
And it's like. It's like a mindset thing, too, right? Like, I think for the first couple of years, like you said. Well, I. I would say more in his rookie, I think people were trying to go at him because of that perceived lack of strength. And I think right now he's taking it on the chin, and he's like, y' all have me messed up for two years. I'm gonna show you what I got. And, like, I feel like this was just such a transformative summer for him in a lot of ways. And I know it's been well documented what he did, but there's a chip on his shoulder.
- [28:30]
C
Howard, It's. It's interesting. Like, he's got, I think, this really great makeup in terms of his Persona from the moment he arrived in the NBA. Like, great success already in his young career, supreme confidence, but not arrogance. And so when he came into the league, it did seem like it's like, all right, yeah, I'm here to. To eventually dominate. I'm here to become a trans transcendent, transformational type of. Of player. But he wasn't forcing it from day one, and I don't think he's forcing it now either. But what I saw the other night, opening night for them is I. Okay, it's my time. Like, I. I'm done. I'm done. Kind of like, oh, let's, you know, lean on my veteran teammates.
- [29:10]
B
Let's.
- [29:10]
C
Oh, this is all cute. Let's just find my way, find my comfort zone, let my teammates shine. And when it's my time to. No, no, no. Fucking my time. And. But again, not in a forcing it way. Not in an air. In an arrogant way. Not in a puffing out my chest way. Just kind of like, I know this is my responsibility and this is my talent level. And, yeah, it's time. It's time to, like, up that usage rate another couple notches and just start punishing guys. And, like, that was awesome. That was absolutely. Like, we were watching this in the theater here at. At Spotify Ringer headquarters in la. And, like, the whole. The whole room, like, every time he did something, we were just all like, we're, like, laughing. It was ridiculous. It's. It's amazing. And, like, we've had a lot of great talent. We've all seen a lot of great talents in this league in the last, you know, couple of decades, but, like, there aren't that many guys where you're just sitting there going like, holy, what did I miss? What am I watching? What the hell is happening?
- [30:03]
B
No, that was one. Howard. No, to your, to your point. Sorry to interrupt. Like, that was. I. I, you know, I don't want to be hyperbolic, but I'm sitting here and I'm. I was sitting there that night trying to think of. I've been privy to some pretty cool basketball experiences. Like, watching them, playing in them. Like, I think it was the most remarkable. It. It's a top three for me of, like, the most remarkable things I've watched. Not. I mean, no, but not because of the overall point production or anything, but, like, just some of the shit that was happening was incredible to watch. You were like. To Howard's point, you're like, there's no way. There's no way he's doing that, Raja.
- [30:38]
A
I thought I was watching the best player in the game. And I know, like. And I know that that is. I don't think. I don't. I don't think he's the best player in the game, but I don't not think he's the best player in the game watching something like that at a young age. Right. Because when you see things like that, it's. It was just a special performance. I don't have any words based off of that, but it did look like he was the best player in the game and. Or he's about. He's about a year away from. This is the year he takes that mantle. It was the message the entire league.
- [31:09]
B
That's what. No, that's what I'd say. I don't think he's the best player in the game.
- [31:12]
A
Right.
- [31:12]
B
But I think to the first question you asked me and the point I tried to make, I don't know if I made it well. If I were forecasting, like, and I was a young player that was on his timeline, I'd be really, really scared. Because if he stays healthy and continues to be on this trajectory, that is coming way sooner than later. Like, right now, I still have cats that I'd put ahead of him. But I mean, to anybody who's got half a brain, you're looking at that saying, yeah, man, that's just inevitable.
- [31:43]
A
You know what I love, though, about Wimby, And I think that when you think about not just for him as generational talent, talent, but one other thing that he is, which is a franchise pillar at this point, he is the franchise. One thing that I am excited about for the spurs is when you have a guy that is not only supremely talented, but some guy, a guy that it feels like gravitates everybody up into his plane and want to be good for him. It seems like he's a guy that everyone wants to be around and gravitate to, right? And that he can elevate other people's games. I think that's why I'm. The spurs are the biggest wild card, I think, of this season right now, because if he can not only play at this level, which I think he can, he can sustain at this level because he did it in year two before he got hurt. I think that he can lift this team to heights that maybe they shouldn't be at the T. Like the. I think the spurs can be the team that isn't supposed to be there and the team that no one wants to base going to postseason.
- [32:48]
C
And that's the thing, right? So we talk about how deep the Western Conference is. Oklahoma City is, you know, the.
- [32:53]
A
The.
- [32:53]
C
The clear favorite. Denver is the clear biggest threat, at least as far as I'm concerned. And then we have this, like, big group of. Of teams that are chasing those two, right? The two LA teams, the warriors, the Wolves. And I don't think most of us have considered, like, you know, a couple people have made a case for, like, Dallas. I don't think Dallas is really in there, but, like, there's other teams that are just kind of hovering around the edges, and then there's just everybody else. And the Spurs. To your point, Logan, like, the spurs are the one team from that bottom tier, last year's, last season's bottom tier, that you look at and you go, okay, I think they're going to make a leap, because Wemby's going to make a leap. And then we see the opening night and he is, and it's like, okay, for sure, this team has great potential, but it's like, how far can you leap from where you were from lottery team at that point? I don't know. I don't know what the answer to that is. But this season's going. That's part of the fun of this season. Because when you watch a game like that, we all try not to overreact. But, you know, good lord, like, if that's the night, if that's what he's doing night to night, who the hell is. Is slowing down the Spurs? Plus, he's wrecking guys at the other end of the court, too. Like, defensively, he's. He's one of the big greatest forces, if possibly the greatest force in the league and preseason favorite for defensive player of the year. Like, what is the ceiling? Like, are they coming for the Thunder and the Nuggets? Like, probably not, but are they potentially putting themselves in that other tier I mentioned of LA, LA, Golden State, MN, Houston? I mean, maybe.
- [34:21]
A
I think, you know, there's always a trajectory for teams like this, right? Where you've seen it, I would say 2009, 2010 Thunder, right? Or not. No, no, no. Yeah. 2009, 2010 Thunder, where they may not be the team that's going to win it in that postseason, but they're the team that's going to scare the shit out of a team that may win it. Right? Where when I think about the 2010 Thunder, they're the team that brought the Lakers to what, six games and like, just scared them into. And that they, that team went on to win the title. Right. Next year they go and play the Dallas Mavericks, who go on to win the title. Right. And then the year after that, they're. They. They get their battle wounds and then they go to the Finals themselves. Yeah, they're on that type of timeline right now. It feels like. I don't know if they're going to. To. To your point, I don't know if they're not going to the Finals this year. The reason why I say that is just take. It's. It's more than just ability. It's. It's scar. It's battle scars that get you there. The other thing, though, that I am interested in the panel right now is we always talk about Face of the League. And as archaic and stupid as that is, I think when we're talking that conversation it's who do you want to turn television on to go see, right? And we had this about 10 years ago with Steph, where when he's cooking, it's like, the highlights won't do it justice. You need to turn the game on right now.
- [35:46]
C
Yeah.
- [35:47]
A
WIMBY is starting to have that effect, and that's great for the league for.
- [35:51]
C
Sure, especially right now, because there's a reason we had, like, it was going to be Steph versus LeBron on opening night. LeBron's hurt, but we still had Steph versus Luke opening night. But we got KD on opening night. We got all those same guys on the Christmas Day games.
- [36:04]
A
Right?
- [36:04]
C
The NBA is still leaning hard, hard on these superstars in their twilight for tent pole nights on the league schedule. And you're waiting to see, like, when is it time for Anthony Edwards or whoever it's going to be. And Wembley's time is now.
- [36:18]
A
By the way, Anthony Edwards had a great opening night as well. He did, he did.
- [36:21]
C
But in terms of, like, needing somebody, you can. You can attach the league's identity to that. You can create tentpole events around that. To your, to your point, Logan, that will make people giddy on their couch and texting their friends like, dude, turn on the fucking game right now. Do not miss this in real time. Like, Wimby Wemby might be it more than anybody else right now. Obviously, Anthony Edwards is a highlight machine, and there are other guys around the league. I think the only question, like, for. For the spurs, getting back to that part of it, is like, this is still a really young team, Raja. Like, Stefan Castle's in year two, and Dylan Harper's a rookie. Vasel and Johnson got a little bit of.
- [36:58]
B
Of.
- [36:58]
C
Of stuff under their belts. Harrison Barnes is like the old man of this group at 33, 32, 33, whatever. But, like, like, when I wonder about their ceiling this season, it's not about Wemby. It's more about, like, because he's. He's awesome and he will bring everybody up, but, like, it's still a very, very young team in a league that the Thunder notwithstanding, usually does not allow for youth to shine too soon.
- [37:22]
B
Yeah, no, that's fair. I think. I think we're moving more towards youth. Like, the trend is youth is going to hit earlier now. I think, you know, the Thunder being a good example of it. I just think the. The overall. The overall skill set and style of play in the NBA now lends itself to younger players being able to come in and be more successful. There's still a lot of seasoning that has to take place, but. Yeah, I hear you, Howard. I don't, you know, I actually like Logan. You and I don't always agree on everything, but I kind of like that, that OKC early in the run type of deal. They're. If he's playing, he's not going to play like that every night like he played in Game 1. But if he's at some level of that and we can find a nice, a nice healthy average to where some nights he looks like that, but there's not a, you know, he's not going to be bad. I, I do think they're a very, very scary team for, for everybody in the league. I don't, I don't care who it is because when you have something, there's no matchup for that. There's no defense you can devise for that. There's. There are things that you can try to do to him, but because of the length, skill, he'll just blow your scheme out of the water. If he's playing well, that's really, really dangerous. So I would agree with you, Howard. Like those young guys, like put in a tough scenario. We're getting into this back and forth in a playoff series. I would always tend to lean towards the more experienced team, the guys who have been there and seen that before. But sometimes it's good to just be out there playing free and, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And if you got somebody that's just an absolute problem and you can't scheme for them, that's dangerous.
- [39:09]
A
Let's talk about the other side of this opening night game between the Mavericks and the Spurs. Now, I wasn't high on the Mavericks and the reason being is because, well, they don't have a point guard and they're putting. You know, it's funny, we had a, we had a conversation at the ringer talking about just Cooper Flag and what is his expectations and, you know, a lot. Some people in the room were talking about how Cooper Flag is going to be like the next great thing, right? And, and he's, he's going to seamlessly transition to this point guard role. And it's going to be an interesting experiment for the Mavericks. And I do think it's going to be an interesting experiment. But the thing I want to start the panel with and ask Raja about this because we also not only saw this with Cooper Flag, we saw it down in Houston with Amin Thompson and we referenced on the pod, your Comments about Amin Thompson during the, during opening night on Tuesday, Roger was in the chat, but one of the things that we talked about was putting the responsibility in the point guard position to a guy that is still figuring out their game and expecting them to lead the ship for a team with championship aspirations and how hard that is and damn near impossible that is. How do, let's start with the Mavericks. How do the Mavericks develop Cooper flag in an environment where they want championships and at least their two lead dogs want titles? How do you get both for that? Let's start with the Mavericks and then we can talk about the Rockets.
- [40:48]
B
Yeah, I mean, I, I, it's a, that's a big question. I don't know that I have a great answer for that. You know, if I'm the Mavericks, let's just start with point guard play.
- [40:58]
A
Right?
- [40:58]
B
Like point, point guard play is, I mean, while you do develop point guard play, they're usually bred from like early. That's, that's usually not something you say, hey man, you've been a, you've been a wing for 12 years and now we need you to be a point guard. And people kind of seamlessly transition into like PG role. Like Ron Harper comes to mind. Remember, like later in his career. Ron Harper, he, he, you know, Ron.
- [41:23]
A
Harper a little bit. Right, right, right back a little bit, little bit.
- [41:27]
B
Yeah. But like, he became a pretty good pg, but albeit in that triangle type of offense, like later in his career. But that, but even that offense isn't your typical, like, you know, got to have a PG that's used to being on it, navigating, getting the ball where it needs to go, setting the table. Like that offense kind of runs itself. I just want to say that because like, people think like you could go from three to four or, you know, sometimes four and three is, is interchangeable in today's game. But it used to be four was in the paint. So transitioning from four in the paint with your back to the basket, out to the wing is a hard transition. Even that transition is easier than going from off the ball to on the ball. That's really, really difficult as it would relate to the Mavericks with Cooper, that's not happening this year. Like, you're not turning him into a good point guard this year. And I don't know that you want to turn him into a point guard anyway. That's not what he's going to be, you know, when your team has its, has its looks at winning a championship, hopefully in the next few years. So I would just Say, you know, you want him to develop different parts of his game out of necessity from. From on the ball. That will help build him into the player that he will be in a few years, not necessarily a pg. So if he's not great at it this year and you're not winning because he's not great at it, let's just understand that this is an investment into, like, rounding him out for years three and four.
- [42:50]
A
Four.
- [42:50]
B
And, you know, if there's spot duty that he needs to play the PG position in in his career, he's able to hop into that role and kind of seamlessly fill it. I do not think it's prudent to think you're going to take a kid like that and say, hey, we have to develop him into a PG because that's where we're going to have him slotted. I. That's unrealistic.
- [43:07]
C
He definitely has, like, playmaking skills, right? Whether he is a three or a four or whatever he is with ball handling and playmaking skills, intuitiveness for the game, he can set up his guys. All that's fine. But, like, in terms of making him the point guard, the primary playmaker for your team, it's interesting. Like, people keep analogizing to Jason Kidd with Giannis when Giannis was a rookie, and fuck it, I'm just putting the ball in his hands. This kid, like, we just got to see what he can do. But the Bucs had nothing else going on at that time. There were no expectations, and Giannis was super raw, and it was just an investment in your future. And Raja, you were just talking about it in this same vein with Cooper, right? That's an investment. Like, let's just. Let's see what he can do. Let's let him develop. Let's let him, like, take his lumps. Let's. Let's let him figure it out as he goes. A problem is you have a mostly veteran cast that you've invested in and that you, Nico Harrison, have said, because we are windows the next few years. And then Kyrie got hurt and whatever, but you've got, you know, Kyrie coming back at some point, maybe not this season. Anthony Davis, late in his career, veterans, like, mostly vet, you know, like, they're not like late veterans, but, you know, pj, the pj, Washington's and Gaffords, whatever. Lively's young, but you're on. You know, Dallas has a little bit of a two timeline thing going on. Um, and I don't think expectations should be real high this season for them. But I think they do. And if that's the case, you can't do the let Cooper flag. Just figure it out as he goes, take his lumps. We'll lose along the way, but he'll develop a lot of great skills. These are the reps he needs. Well, that again, that's fine if you have no expectations. That's fine if you expect to be a lottery team, but not if you expect to be a high level playoff team. And so they're kind of caught in between. And also if you decide maybe Cooper's not ready for this much ball handling and playmaking responsibility, let's shift it back toward d' Angelo Russell. That comes with some potential downside. Or maybe you're just hoping and praying that Kyrie comes back sometime this season and that alleviates the responsibility for Cooper. But like, I just think that they're caught in between on every level here.
- [45:03]
B
Well, they are. He's a, he's an in between player. I mean, he, he's, you know, not, not exactly a pure score.
- [45:14]
A
A tweener, if you will.
- [45:15]
B
He is a tweener, but not in a, not in a bad way. Like, he's a tweener in the best possible way in which he checks so many boxes on, on the floor that it's going to contribute to winning if you have him in his proper lane really quickly. PG is just, I mean, it's like, it's like playing quarterback, man. Like, if you like, you know, if you said to like a, I don't know, a safety, hey, go play corner. I mean, there's an element of like, you're not going to do that great. But like, I kind of do something like that. Like, I'll just, I cover a little bit. Like you said to a running back, hey, go out there and run these routes. Like, they're not going to be great at it, but it's not completely foreign. Like they might be, you know, out in some, some, some routes anyway. But if you said that like a wide receiver, hey, go play quarterback. Like, and you were running real offense, not like wildcat shit. If that person has never really played quarterback extensively before, that's, that's almost impossible. And PG is a lot like that. Like, you can come up and look serviceable, get the ball up the court. Like even in the Houston game, even in the Indiana game, like last night, double ot and they played great. The lack of organizational skills from that, from that position that was missing hurt those teams because there are those offenses. Just look, you know, it was, you go I go. You go, I go. Nobody really was orchestrating what was going on there. And so PG is, is an unfair position to put someone in and expect them to be the answer. If they haven't, you know, been raised and played that position a lot now they can develop a little bit, but it's a very, very difficult position to, to transition into.
- [46:57]
A
And I think that that makes me think about Amin Thompson and I really want to. What you said in the group chat earlier this week was, was like pretty spot on when you talked about Amin Thompson, the hesitancy to shoot. And I know somebody will probably see the stat line and be like, well, he took what, like 17, 16 shots. But I'm sure it was like the way he shot those shots and you know, he got cramps at the end of the game and that played a part into it. But it made me think and we talked about it on the last pod Raja how hard it's going to be for Houston because I know going into the season after Fred Von Vliet went down, everyone was talking about, well, you know, Ahmed Thompson played point guard and spurts last year. He could do and played it, you know, coming up he can just go flat right back into that point guard role and it's not that easy. And I think the problem right now with Houston is because you don't have a point guard, you're going to do it by committee. And you and Kevin Durant can play point guard in spurts and really good. He's a ball handler, but you want him to be in the post and run offense through him in that way if you can. And same with Amin Thompson, like this seems to be a bigger problem for Houston that can, that can threaten to sink their season. And I think that we're not talking about that enough. I think this can be a real big problem because. And a lot of it has to do with them pushing the button too early to get kd. But this can be a long season for Houston no matter the coaching and everything that is in play. It could be tough sailing.
- [48:33]
B
Yeah, it sounds crazy because they were right there in that game and had a chance, you know, multiple chances to win that game. So it's going to sound crazy but like with, with, with. Why can't I with. With Fred Van V. They're fine. It's fine. Like I, I maintain and I still stand on what I was saying about them being a. I, in my opinion a legitimate like threat. I wouldn't have them, you know, over Denver or, or, or necessarily OKC but they're right there with Van Vliet. Not only was a man Thompson bringing it up, you had, you had, you had KD bringing it up, you had Shengoon bringing it up like, like with his back to the basket, crab dribbling just across half court. Almost, almost, almost going into the back court. Look, pace of play is a thing, but when you're backing the ball over half court as the clock is going to 16, they didn't call, they don't.
- [49:28]
A
Call five seconds anymore in the NBA apparently, right?
- [49:30]
B
Yeah, I mean you were almost on that. You would have almost been on that eight second count. But like, but even still, there's only 24 in a shot clock and you have it at half court with your back to the basket facing the other way. Like that's a tough way to consistently get into offense. That doesn't leave a lot of meat on the bones for you to actually find a really good shot because you've got these really good players that can put defensive precarious situations where like if you watch last night, Denver and, and, and Golden State, like they're in the front court, some of it is because of just general pace and the way they want to play with advanced passes and stuff like that, but also capable, you know, PGs, they're up the court and ready to initiate at about 20. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a lot. You give, you give a team an extra three seconds per possession to find a good quality shot with players that are that level talent, they're going to eat you alive. And so it is a problem for Houston. I don't see him in Thompson as a pg. Could he, I, I mean the same as, as, as Coop, like could he be a PG at for periods of time, maybe extended sometimes and look good doing it? Yeah, for sure. But I don't think that's exactly what he is. I think I, you know, I see him more as a, a true type, wing to mid post type of scorer. My issue with it outside of the PG play that they were lacking was his unwillingness to shoot wide open shots. And it was brought to my attention by my son who was sitting with me because I was kind of doing something else. And there was a, this might have been a three or four minute stretch where, you know, OKC was in a zone. It was probably second quarter, the Rockets were having trouble scoring the ball and they would, they would throw it to him and he'd throw it right back. He'd be wide open in the corner like these Are these are college can shoot these threes. Like, you know, I've referenced before when I got to the NBA in college, you got to kind of a lot of dudes got to be wide open to shoot the ball. Like in the pros, you're never wide wide open or rarely. So you got to get used to shooting a shot that's got a certain level of contest to it, and you calibrate to that looking wide open to you. Well, he had multiples of those that he turned down. So he'd throw it back up to like the. To the high wing, and that person would catch it and immediately rifle it right back to him in the corner because they're like, dude, you have to shoot that. And he put it on the floor. And I'm like, hey, well, now I'm starting to get into your mind a little bit. I'm like, hey, man, like, you, you. You don't. You just don't look like you want to shoot that. Other plays where people would be commanding double teams and he'd be out high on the wing. And this really said a lot to me because if they trust you to shoot that, they'll throw you that ball. They're double team. Well, they're not really throwing in that ball. So it suggests to me that they know he to wants shoot it. And that's my concern. Like, I think he's a great player and I think he's got the ceiling to be a phenomenal player. But we got to get over that hurdle of. Of not wanting to shoot the ball. I don't give a if it goes in or not. Shoot it. Train your brain to know that when I'm open, I'm shooting it. We'll get to the makes later, but we can't be afraid. We can't be burying oursel down in the. In the short corner all the time to get a bucket, like, make. Nah, we can't do that, bro. We gotta round him out. He gotta get out there and shoot the ball a little bit.
- [52:49]
A
How? And I'll start with Roger, but I do want you to answer this too. Howard. You referenced the last pod, but we go. This goes back to the KD trade, right? And I referenced pushing the button too early. And we always talk about when is the right time to push the button. But when you look at this Rockets team early, but do you think if this continues that they will look back on this and be like, we were better off, just maybe. I know we wanted to get off Jalen Green, I know this, but Maybe they would have been better off. Probably just try. Maybe another year of just like, let's let him on. Amen. Excuse me? Give him the ball and we'll just figure this out and just let him grow organically before we do a move like this and give Kevin Durant another extension.
- [53:35]
B
You're asking me? Sorry?
- [53:37]
A
Yeah, I'm asking you first, sir.
- [53:38]
B
No, I. I don't think that KD is in his way. I. I really don't. I don't see it like that.
- [53:46]
A
I mean, so more so in his head, right? Like, okay, we have this superstar score I grew up watching, and I'm going to defer when it's time for me to.
- [53:54]
B
Actually, I don't see it like that, Logan. I just. I. I slightly disagree. I really don't see the psychology of it being that I think this is more of a personal issue with him and his confidence in his own ability to shoot the ball. And I say that because I've seen it before, right? Like, I think he's in his own head as it relates to his shot. He was really free early. Like, he looks like when he wants to play, when he gets to what he likes to do, which is downhill, putting you in a bind as a singular defender, and he's coming at you. There was no bashfulness. It wasn't like he was going to defer to anybody in those spaces, but those are his preferred spaces. That's what he likes to do. So, like, if you were going to be a deferring to another player mentality type of guy, I think I would have seen that permeate, like, the entire game. And it didn't. It just. He only looked bashful when he was having to shoot open jump shots. That suggests to me that it's not a KD issue. It's an Amen Thompson I don't want to say issue. It's an Amen Thompson hurdle that he's got to clear. He's got to get to a point where that jumper for him, and it's psychological. Look, I mean, forgive me for doing this, but, like, you know, my young guy, Ty is a really good little high school player. A lot of what he wanted to do because he's really slippery and he's really crafty, and he's. It's getting to the rim, and he did it at a super high level. So how do you tell someone that does something uncannily well, like, Amen Thompson, hey, don't do that anymore. Like, stop doing that or trust something else when they're like, yeah, I, I get it, but, like, I do that better. Well, it's, you know, for Tai, it happens to be like, look, dog, like at six, two and a half, six three, if you try to play high level college ball, like, that's not always going to be an option because they're way bigger players. So we had to build a belief in his jump shot. Like, the skill level is a thing, and it's married with the belief. But the first hurdle is believing we can shoot that and seeking that shot and feeling like it's my shot to shoot. Because even if we skill it up and I can never get, like, the mental part of that together, you're always going to be like, bashful, not believing in it, not shooting it, and then you're slipping right back down the hill of, hey, we're not going to shoot the ball. So, like, we've worked really hard, and my son's come a long way, and I'm really proud of the work he's done. And, like, he's seeking jump shots almost to the point where you got to remind him, hey, man, remember, you can get to the rack a little bit, but that's the work that I see Amen Thompson having to be able to do because Even though he's 6, 8 and maybe the most athletic thing on the planet, their Wemby is lurking around the rim. They can stack four and five bodies in there against you. So, like, if that's where you have to go to score the ball, eventually it becomes really hard to do that where because of your skill set, your size, your athleticism, your burst, people are backing up and you could just raise up into the air and shoot 18 footers. We've got to be able to do that, dude. Not to mention, like, I got KD and Shen, and they're, they're commanding these double teams. The ball's moving, it gets swung to you in the corner and you're butt naked. You gotta shoot that, brother. Like, we'll get to the makes, but you gotta shoot that.
- [57:15]
C
Yeah, I don't, I don't know how much concern I want to draw out of, out of, you know, game one of, of, of this season, other than the fact that we know a lot is resting on Amend Thompson's shoulders now more so than if Fred Van Vliet were still there, right? And the Rockets are trying to figure this out. Like, who is the offense built around? Who is. Who is our lead playmaker, who's gonna get us organized in critical moments and all that. And I think that, you know, maybe that's too much to place on Amend Thompson's shoulders at this very moment. And maybe some of the hesitation, and again, just one game, but maybe some of that hesitation is simply him trying to figure out what is my role now without Fred Van Vliet here. Like, how much is it up to me to keep the ball moving and not then get dinged afterward for just like, you know, chucking up shots, right? You don't, you don't want to look like, you know, you want. Every guy in this league who has the potential to be a superstar, to be the best guy on their team has to embrace that, but without also going to a point where, okay, now you missed four in a row or, oh, you know, you took. You took more shots than Kevin Durant. How can you. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, I think it could get in your head just what the expectations are, what your role is, how much responsibility you're supposed to take on, and then when you put the playmaking responsibilities on top of that and how many times somebody's probably drilled you on, listen, we need you to do some of the things that Fred was doing for us. And now, you know, that could cause some confusion, right? Like, hesitation in this league will wipe you out because the split second it takes you to overthink, am I shooting? Am I passing, am I driving? Now a guy's like right up on you and, and you know, there. There is no. There is no room to operate. So, like, I don't know, I think it's interesting. Like, it's. It's worth watching, it's worth keeping an eye on. And Raj and I talked about this before you came back, Logan, when, when, when Van Vliet first went down. Like, I think Raj and I were on the same page in this. Like, if this is going to be a season where the rockets, with a 37 year old Kevin Durant, expect to contend because they got a 37 year old Kevin Durant like you, You. You got to go out and get somebody else at the position. Like, I, I still think that's where this ultimately leads is, yes, Sengun can do it. You can play through Shengun, you can play through Katie, you can play through Amen Thompson at times, we'll see what Reed shepherd, you know, ultimately brings. But I still think, like, if you were expecting to be a top three team in the west this season, as they were before Fred Van Vliet's injury, you got to go get a Fred Van Vliet replacement.
- [59:38]
B
You Need a pg. You need a pg. And that's. Listen, I want to, I want to make sure I'm clear here. I didn't mean this wasn't a knock on Amen Thompson or his ability to play PG at all. Like, I, the question for me was like, is their lack of PG going to be a problem? For sure. That's, I don't see that as an amendment Thompson problem. And what I'm saying about Amend Thompson was just, you know, I'm a huge fan and I want to see him reach the level that, that I think a lot of people feel like he's got in him. And from my eyes, even through one game, that, that shooting a jump shot is going to be critical to him being, being able to continue to level up. As it relates though, to him playing the PG and doing what Fred Van Vliet did when you are at that, when he's at the 4, if he wants to be down in the dunker spot trying to get buckets and sneak and, and, and, and slide in around the rim and use his athleticism to finish well, we've got like three other shooters around that space the floor. It's not as critical for him to be out there and shoot wide open shots. I'm not lobbying for him at all to say, hey, this is my team. I'm shooting more than kd. I'm going to go one on one and shoot these. That's not what I'm saying. But when teams are playing zones and you are at the PG spot and you're as big as you are behind that, they were huge.
- [61:04]
A
Right?
- [61:05]
B
When they came out, they were huge. I think it was the biggest lineup, they said, starting lineup in NFL, I mean NBA history.
- [61:11]
A
Yeah.
- [61:11]
B
With him at the point. We need you to shoot the ball. That's part of the responsibility. Like if Fred Van Vliet were out there and that ball got swung against the zone and it went inside the zone, collapsed and then it comes back outside. Well, what does Fred Van V do with that? He, he, he shoots that. Because we've worked hard to get that shot. It's the open shot. We've got to be a willing shooter there. If that's not there, then you have to, you have to positionally put him somewhere else on the court to maximize his skill set and give your team the best chance to roll. So then you got to scale down, which means he's got to move off the ball, theoretically bring it, bring in a PG or someone else that can shoot the ball and then play him in a position where he can, you know, hover around in those areas, you know, but, but like, I, it's not an Amend Thompson issue. I don't mean to make it one. That's just what I saw from his game specifically. And as it relates to playing pg, like, they have to figure that out because they can't exist if they're going to be turning down those jumpers, you know, and then they're playing with their back to the basket every possession with essentially 16 seconds on the, on the shot clock at half court.
- [62:23]
A
Yeah, I agree. It's not, it's not a Almond Thompson issue. I couldn't imagine having to, to be in a min. Thompson's position and work out all summer for one scenario. And then in the. Right before the season starts, you're like, oh, all that work doesn't matter right now because we need you to be a completely different player. It's tough. Yeah.
- [62:45]
B
Yeah. Well, can I just. Sorry, because I'm geeking out a little bit. But even, even to that, when you're trying to build a player, right, like when you're, when you're attacking each off season to the point you just made, Amen. Thompson goes in. Maybe their plan is, hey, man, look, we're going to continue to build this off the bounce shot creation within like 15 to 16ft part of your game. So last year was like almost all on top of the rim. We're going to take two steps away from the rim and we'll attack that because that's, that's the role you're going to play for this team. And we got KD now, so we don't need you out there shooting threes. There's no way you're going to be a pg. We'll attack the jump shot next summer. Yeah, well, then the Fred Van Vliet thing happens and you're put in that role. That's why I'm saying for all kind of reasons, you need a pg.
- [63:31]
A
Absolutely.
- [63:32]
B
Not just to organize you, get you in sets, get the ball where it needs to go, but because that's not necessarily fair to Amen Thompson.
- [63:39]
A
Well, not only do you need a pg, you need a PG now. You can't wait till February. You need to be on the phone right now figuring out how we're going to make a deal to get whoever into the building. We'll see what happens. Ready to get back on a plane? First of all, before we get out of here, I just want to give a shout out to our, to all the team here. At Spotify for holding it down. You know, you really got to figure out how the how everything is made around here. It was a very fascinating week here at core weekend. Also a specific clap it up for big bv, Big cc, Cliff and Victoria for holding it down in person. This that was really good. It was really good to get into a lab with them. Yeah, man. Back on this. Back on the the video chats start next week, huh? Also one big announcement. Not a big announcement but we're going back to the mailbag so rules mailbag gmail.com rulesmailback gmail.com realwinsmailbag gmail.com we will be answering your questions on Tuesday. Me Logie Boo, not the two. Howard Beck and Rajabel will be there. Roger, you're Tuesday? Yeah. You're good for Tuesday?
- [64:44]
B
Yeah, dude, of course.
- [64:45]
A
Okay. Just making sure. Just making sure. That has been another edition of real ones Tap in all this shits live from Los Angeles by.