The Bam 83-Point Discourse Inferno. Plus, Momentous Inflection Points for SGA, Wemby, and More | Group Chat

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show – "The Bam 83-Point Discourse Inferno. Plus, Momentous Inflection Points for SGA, Wemby, and More" | Group Chat

Date: March 12, 2026
Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Bam Adebayo’s wild 83-point game—the fourth-highest scoring performance in NBA history—and unpacks the ferocious discourse it unleashed. The panel then zooms out to examine pivotal moments and rising stars in the current NBA landscape: SGA’s burgeoning MVP case, Wemby’s leap into franchise-shaking stardom, and a discussion of surprising and resurgent teams like the Spurs and Hornets. Throughout, the hosts debate how individual greatness, league trends, and historical context are colliding this season.

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The Bam Adebayo 83-Point Explosion and Discourse Inferno

Setting the Scene

• Justin opens the main conversation by noting how the "Bam 83-point explosion" instantly became a “toxic discourse” on social and basketball media (03:31).
• The event combines a rare record chase, controversy over stat-padding ("gratuitous nature, the perversion, perhaps, toward the end"), and the issue of NBA tanking culture.

Key Quadrants of the Discourse (04:46)

Justin identifies four conflating issues that made this story explode:

• The Wizards as Bam’s feeble, tanking opponent, reigniting the “tanking wars.”
• Surprise at who accomplished it (“This guy did this?!”).
• The discourse over how records “should” be set, especially surpassing a legend like Kobe Bryant.
• The reaction from diehard Kobe fans (07:42):

  "I think that Kobe fans might be the biggest fucking losers in the world." – Justin (07:51)

Was It a Meaningful Achievement?

• Rob pushes back on the overall negativity (08:41):

  “A game against the Wizards became must-see basketball TV. Is that not in itself a net positive? …If you're not playing to win, play for something. And this game was about something—even if it's something that people have gotten very upset about.”

• Kyle raises concerns about the process, especially the fourth quarter stat-hunting.

The Ethics and Entertainment of Stat-Chasing

• Rob defends chasing history (12:21):

  “Unwritten rules are mostly for cowards and losers who want something to be mad about...Once you have a shot at history, who are you to think you're better than to take it?”

• The group compares Bam's game to prior scoring outbursts (Booker, Wilt, Kobe), noting that “numbers were goose[d] towards the end” in most such moments (12:31).
• Debate ensues about the limits of “decorum,” intentional fouling, high free throw rates, and the changing structure of NBA records.

Free Throws in Modern Scoring

• Kyle calls free throws the “GLP1 of scoring outbursts in 2026” and cites free throw shooting improvements as a key league-wide trend (14:52):

  "Guys are making free throws at a ridiculous clip... Seven of the top 10 [seasons in FT%] have happened in the last seven seasons."

Broader Cynicism: Is This a League Problem?

• Justin points out the underlying frustration with NBA structure: “It is kind of incumbent upon the league to legislate this out, because I think humans are going to adapt to any scenario” (16:56).
• Rob, by contrast, sees “Bam being hot… representative of something, but it's also just hot hand/unique night randomness—not some trend that will keep happening” (18:23, 19:23).

Kobe Bryant’s Record & Legacy

• The group notes that “Kobe fans” respond zealously to any threat to his scoring feats, reconstructing history to fit idealized narratives (20:12).

  "Anytime you can score that many points, it is the crown jewel on the ball-hoggiest season that Kobe Bryant ever played." – Rob (20:36)

• They trace the difference between myth and reality in scoring records: "20 years from now… it’s a bunch of 3D children doing this job," jokes Justin (19:58).

Where Do We Land?

• Justin finds it “refreshing” that Spoelstra let Bam chase 83, even if it was “gross at times”—it broke the “uptightness” that usually stops such feats (24:20):

  “All success is gross at times. There's a seedy underbelly to anything if you look closely enough.” – Rob (25:24)

• General consensus: It was weird, occasionally unsavory, but undeniably compelling.

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Segment 2: "Momentous Inflection Points" – SGA, Wemby, Spurs, Hornets (29:52)

SGA’s MVP Case and “Best in the World” Belt

The Run and the Moment

• SGA (Shai Gilgeous-Alexander) is on the verge of breaking Wilt’s record for consecutive 20-point games (127), and led OKC to a huge, short-handed win over the Nuggets (31:44, 33:06).
• Justin: "That felt like the type of thing that I will probably be thinking about the rest of the season...it feels like that's Shai’s [moment].” (33:06)

Breaking Down Shay's Game

• Rob lauds SGA for the “ideal balance of understanding what it means to be a leader, leading scorer, a historical great in real time”—e.g., 15 assists and zero turnovers in a key win.

  “An isolation scorer see(s) two or three hovering defenders at all times and [makes] the exact right pass at the exact right moment, but also forces the issue when he needed to.” (34:08)

• Kyle: SGA is “an interesting inverse” to the hyper-speed, three-and-D archetype, thriving through unique pace and mastery in today's “spatial,” efficient NBA (35:53).

SGA vs. Jokic (and Others)—Who’s “Best”?

• Justin: SGA’s playoff moments contribute to “stickiness”—memorable, iconic narratives that shape legacy (39:24).
• The hosts discuss the difficulty establishing this era’s “best player” after LeBron, agreeing the title now rotates among several stars (44:00).
• Rob: “LeBron sets a really high standard for anyone to measure up to.” Nobody else is there yet, but SGA, Jokic, Wemby, etc., might get close with time (45:32-47:04).

SGA as Trendsetter in the Modern League

• Justin and Kyle emphasize how the NBA has become a search for maximizing every advantage—SGA’s ability to “use space” is unprecedented (48:14).
• Rob: “The defining stars right now…are either people who create space, or they're people who use space. And Shai uses space better than any player we’ve ever seen.” (48:48)

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Wemby: The Franchise-Warping Rookie Ascends

What Just Happened?

• Wemby’s leap: The Spurs have won 16 of 17 and Wemby’s shot-making and defensive omnipresence draw comparisons to landmark “before and after” NBA moments (49:48–51:06).
• Rob: “His shot making...this season feels like a before and after point for the league.”

Wemby’s Unique Skill Set

• Kyle’s “Hungry Hippo Theory”: Now that everyone can shoot, the edge in today’s NBA is seizing other available advantages (steals, offensive rebounds, blockability), and “Wemby is an apex example of that.” (51:06–52:40)
• Rob: "[Wemby] isn't a Gobert-level rim protector...what's most terrifying is that even when he's turned the other way, he sees you. He's becoming a panopticon kind of defender"—referencing an ever-watchful surveillance tower (57:54).

Spurs as Contenders

• The panel agrees the Spurs are likely the West’s #2 team behind OKC and have an unpredictable, momentum-fueled youth movement (58:58):

  “If you play against the Spurs, you’re just the buildings. Like, you're just the stuff that gets wrecked.” – Rob (61:13)

• They break down the unique mix: Wemby, three interchangeable lead guards (Fox, Castle, and Harper), and “momentary dude” role guys like Vassell and Champagne (62:31–63:37).

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Youth Movement: The Surging Hornets

The Transformation

• With Grant Williams healthy and lineup tweaks unlocking new chemistry, the Hornets have gone 22–11 since January 1 (compared to 11–22 pre-January).
• Justin draws a comparison to the early Warriors, acknowledging it’s "early seedlings, not full sapling Warriors" (68:49–69:27).

What's Working?

• Rob: “So much of the difference with this year’s team is…Khan and Brandon Miller specifically and how steady they've been, have given them such a sturdy base…then Lamelo can be…a wild card element” (74:35).
• Kyle highlights the addition of responsible contributors (via Jeff Peterson’s front office), especially defenders and shooters, that complement their volatile stars and raise the team's floor (82:07).

Lamelo Ball and Team Construction

• Kyle likens Lamelo somewhat to Monte Ellis on the old Warriors: dynamic, but perhaps ultimately not primary, and someone who connects everything (76:52–77:33).
• Rob is optimistic about Lamelo’s transformation and sees win-win outcomes in his new, less central role (78:36).

Outlook for This Season

• Playoff “firm push” is seen as a great outcome; winning a series would be a moonshot, but making noise is plausible in a Knicks matchup (84:23).
• The Hornets, like the Spurs and Thunder, are emblematic of how rapid improvement and sensible team-building can quickly reshape the NBA hierarchy.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bam’s game breaking the discourse:
  "This instantly became one of the most toxic discourses I think I've ever seen in all topics of pop culture…like you need barbed wire." – Justin (03:31)
• On Kobe Bryant myth-making:
  "Kobe fans might be the biggest fucking losers in the world." – Justin (07:51) "The basketball world is incapable of having a normal conversation about anything Kobe related." – Rob (08:41)
• Defending chasing history:
  “Unwritten rules are mostly for cowards and losers who want something to be mad about.” – Rob (12:21)
• SGA’s night against Denver:
  “It was just like a, a tightrope walk all night of an isolation score...but also forcing the issue when he needed to.” – Rob (34:08)
• Wemby’s defensive impact:
  “Wemby is becoming a panopticon kind of defender, where, even if he's technically looking the other way, you kind of think he's looking at you.” – Rob (57:54)
• On current league parity:
  “The defining stars right now do one of two things right? They're either people who create space or they're people who use space. And Shai uses space better than...maybe any player we've ever seen.” – Rob (48:48)
• On the youth movement:
  “The kids are all right…The youth movement here is really, really solid. And I think this could be a hinging point where everybody kind of shakes their head and be like, okay, yeah, yeah, the youth are ready to kind of take the torch.” – Kyle (65:00)

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

• Bam Adebayo’s 83 and the Discourse: 03:31–29:52
  • Hot button topics, stat-chasing ethics, free throw trend, Kobe myth
• SGA’s MVP run & the “Belt:” 31:44–47:04
  • The Denver game, new best player arguments, SGA’s style
• Wemby and the Shifting Spurs: 48:48–63:40
  • Hungry Hippo Theory, spatial defense, new contender status
• Hornets’ Resurgence: 66:22–84:23
  • Early Warriors/Pacers comp, team-building, Lamelo role, playoff upside

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Final Thoughts

The episode encapsulates an NBA at an inflection point—records falling, norms shifting, discourse getting wilder than ever, and new stars (SGA, Wemby) rapidly assuming leadership of the league. The lines between greatness, context, and controversy have never been blurrier, and the youth movement’s moment is here. The hosts leave us with the sense that "the kids are all right," and the 2026 season’s closing months could become a lasting point of reference for NBA history.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Dverrier and joining me, welcome back to Rob Mahoney. Nj Kyle Mann. Gentlemen, how are your days off? Especially, how were your JV days? Did you celebrate like I did?

[C]

You know, I tried to and I tried to tune into the pod only to find that you had turned it into a John Bernthal clip show. Like, what happened while we were gone?

[B]

I think you have to ask our listeners who are on a completely different level. I appreciate the feedback, even though it did send me down an existential spiral.

[D]

Well, it's good to know that you're, you're limber and agile, Justin. From, from what I've heard, things can't leave Justin at home alone. You never know. The cops are going to be called on this guy.

[B]

That's right. How are you guys?

[C]

How.

[B]

How's your like, content diet? Have you, did you get away from the NBA? Are you, are you back in the mix? Like, what's going on?

[C]

You know, I tried to. And then Shay became the MVP overnight. Well, not really overnight, but confirmed it overnight. Bam. Adebayo scored more points than God. Every time I leave, incredible things happen. So I have taken the lesson. I will never be taking any PTO ever again. I'm gonna stay locked into my chair and my couch in the arenas as I have been, you know, told and instructed by the universe to do. I don't know what else to take from this weekend at this point.

[D]

Rob, you the mo. The thing that I'm most concerned about and I wanted to ask you about was I believe you ate like a pulled pork sandwich that you posted to Instagram. Is that right? You ate Some kind. What was the sandwich action there going on? Because you're, you're a master food Instagram and I just, I wanted to follow up and get some deets.

[C]

Why are you diet watching me? What's. What's your problem?

[D]

Am I die watching you? I think I'm enviously wanting to have whatever you're having. This is, I'm just, you know, first

[C]

of all, straight pastrami, an important correction. Although that was your streetmark sandwich, that

[D]

was your street ball nickname also, right? Straight pastrami.

[C]

I would welcome it.

[B]

Weren't you in like a, like a vacation destination sort of place? Don't those two things kind of clash where it's like hanging by the pool, but like eating just like beef straight to the face?

[C]

Only if you have shame. You know, I think if you just have to welcome all parts of yourself, the one that wants to be by the pool and to gorge on pastrami, and as long as you find that inner balance, no one can take it away from you.

[B]

That's right. That's a beautiful statement.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

We're going to talk about some other big topics later in this podcast. A lot of things are happening in the NBA and I think, like, people are talking about them, but probably not with the requisite amount of stakes and just like kind of a nod to history that I think that they probably need to. But first we gotta talk about the story that goes directly into that. That's the Bam Adebayo 83 point explosion. Just what a night. And I will say, since that night, in practically like minutes after it was confirmed that he was going to break Kobe's record, second time, second highest point total in the NBA. Um, it just instantly became one of the most toxic discourses I think I've ever seen in, in just all topics of pop culture. Yeah, like, you need barbed wire. We need to like start building bunkers and build a century tower just to even like try to like start to pierce through this topic.

[C]

Can we start there? Because what happened? Like, I get that Bam scored all these points. I get that there's some controversy around, oh, you know, it's a tanking opponent. Oh, it required all these free throws to get there. Oh, the intentional fouling to kind of goose the point totals. All of that I understand, but like, how did this go from zero to third rail instantly?

[B]

I'm glad you brought this up because I do have some things sketched out here where I do feel like this is something of a four quadrant story in terms of like, all of the hot button things that just get people going. So I have written down, first and foremost, like, the Wizards being the team who would allow this, I think just leans right back into the tanking wars. What an absolute disaster. I've seen some people being like, you can't, like, knock Bam because, like, this was a Wizard's problem. They shouldn't have let him do that. They shouldn't have played Alexar for 19 minutes or whatever, whatever it is. So it just gets us back right back a month ago. There's also a lot of this fucking guy. Like, this fucking guy did this, which I think has been a surprise to anyone. Zach crammed a story on the ringer, I think, two years ago, kind of looking at the possible players who could threaten Wilt's record, and Bam wasn't a part of his top 50.

[C]

Well, yeah, like.

[B]

Because who would ever think that.

[C]

Well, I want to take a little relish off that. I would say it's a this guy, not a this fucking guy. You know, like. Like, if he would. Highsmith had gone for 83. That's a this fucking guy.

[B]

Yeah, I. I guess so. I. I see. That doesn't even seem plausible. This is like, with within plausibility, but still like a complete, like, blow your wood back. I'm surprised.

[D]

You guys are putting weird emphasis on this. On this. On this phrase that I don't typically do because you're going, you're. Justin, you're saying this. Or it's more. Yeah.

[C]

And then Rob guy.

[B]

You're right. This. Yeah.

[D]

The emphasis there is. Is a little. I don't know if we're doing. I don't want to quibble on the misuse of the. Of the term, but I think something that's interesting is, like, why. Thinking back to why Cram, probably. Cram was probably thinking shot making threes, probably. I'm just guessing. I don't remember this piece. But, I mean, Bam has sort of like to be a little more, you know, official about it here with, like, how he's grown. I wrote this down. Bam's. We talked about this earlier in the season, that it was pretty noticeable immediately. His three point rate was just crazy. Obviously, he's been putting in the work, you know, spotting up 31% of the time. In 2122, that number was 5%. So that's a gigantic shift in approach. So I think it was a combination of, yeah, he was making shots. He's shown some pretty big improvement there. But then also, the Wizards are just acutely ill equipped to stop A Bam out of bio. Because Alex Sar, for as. As promising as he is, might as well be a saloon door. He's a minor inconvenience to. To a guy like Bam because Bam is just going to hit him and. And get to the rim. Sar does a skinny as he is. But my thing was.

[B]

Can I. Can I get back to my list there? I wasn't done.

[C]

Oh, sorry, we hijacked your list.

[B]

Yes. All right. But the last thing here is I also think it's like, Kobe. Like, the fact that he was passing Kobe. I just.

[D]

Quadrants. Sorry.

[B]

Yes, I'm in. I'm in the quadrant. It's okay. You added an addendum. We're back on track. I think that Kobe fans might be the biggest fucking losers in the world.

[C]

And.

[D]

And so I'm turning my phone off.

[B]

It's just the zealotry about Kobe is just on a level that I think even in terms of like, all pop culture topics, like, we're talking, like, K Pop, we're talking Marvel stuff. Like, this is like one of one. People just think of him as a deity as opposed to just like a normal thing that, like, we can like and follow. And the fact that he was vaulted here led to some pretty outlandish things. And so it's all kind of coalesced into this big old stew of shit where it's like the. The wave of pessimism that has come off of this as if this is like some referendum on the NBA. This is Adam Silver's fault. Like, everything just, like kind of compounded in a very toxic way in. In a way that, like, we've seen before. But this feels like on a completely other level.

[C]

I would like to present a slight zag against. Against the discourse, against all this hand wringing. I would say specifically about the tanking part, because the Kobe thing, you're. You're right in that the basketball world is incapable of having a normal conversation about anything Kobe related. So I'm just going to throw that off to the side. But people have been complaining for weeks now that these tanking games are unwatchable, that the, like, teams like the Wizards, teams like the Jazz teams in these positions. Oh, my God, will someone think of the fans? A game against the Wizards became Must see Basketball tv. Is that not in itself a kind of a net positive? And I would go one step further to say I don't know why the Wizards or any team that's trying to lose games right now, the Pacers, aren't doing some version of the same Thing. Why is every third Wizards game not Bub Carrington is going to shoot 60 times and see if he can shatter every record in the record books. Like, if you're not playing to win, play for something. And this game was about something. Even if it's something that people have gotten very upset about.

[D]

I think the problem people have is they must see the. What it is that made it must see tv. I think is where you start to get. Because I was watching it to be like, what?

[B]

Like.

[D]

Because initially when I saw, like it wasn't a man. I need to be a part of this. I guess this is where it's the eye of the beholder thing too, because. And what people have a big problem with, because normally when you. You're like, get to a TV right now. It's like, I've got to witness the greatness of whatever this is. I don't think people, some people are just not seeing this as greatness. I think that's where the hairs are being split. So that's kind of where the digression happens. Like Clay's. What was it, like a 36 point quarter he had?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Like that was phenomenal. But you know, he basically blew the doors off them and I don't even know how much he scored the rest of the game. It's like whenever the competitive context of it goes away, it feels like it stops being about greatness, which I think is what people have problems with.

[B]

Yes, I agree with Rob overall that like, aren't we seeking out things in order for people to pay attention? Like, this is basically the Steph Curry role where it's like, he's doing something that nobody else is doing. It's going to force you to put down your phone and pay attention. I think Wemby very much aligns with that, which is why I think Wemby is our best hope going forward of being like appointment viewing. I think a lot of his games these days are becoming that. But like this was appointment viewing to the point where they cut into a Wemby versus the Celtics game that was diminished slightly because they threw out Jaylen Brown for some fucking reason. But like everyone had to stop and pay attention to us. And I think the fact that so many people were paying attention has led to a lot of the same sort of feelings being dredged up about this. But I think we should talk about the probably, let's call it gratuitous nature, the perversion, perhaps toward the end there, because it, it does feel like this is like the actual Talking point, because Bam got to, I would say the third quarter pretty normally playing within the flow of the game, taking more shots than he's typically used to. More threes in particular, more free throws. But like I would say it was a pretty normal high scoring affair. And then the fourth quarter happens and very much the Heat leaned into it, I guess. Rob, I'm asking you, as someone who's, who watched a lot of this, probably is a little bit more focused on decorum than, than I think a lot of people. Like, did it offend your sensibilities the way in which Bam went about that fourth quarter?

[C]

I do care about decorum in a lot of respects of human life. I also think unwritten rules are mostly for cowards and losers who want something to be mad about. And it's like, I don't know, man. At this point in the game, it's really not about who wins between the Heat and the Wizards, it's about how many points can Bam out of bios score.

[D]

You're saying Larry David's a coward and a loser basically, is what you're saying. Right?

[C]

Isn't that the whole premise of the show is that he's constantly complaining about loserly things?

[D]

Depends on how you, how you see the world.

[C]

I guess it does. I really have no problem with this. And frankly, this is a part of every high scoring game basically in NBA history. Absent like a very select few. Like maybe if you went back to like the David Robinson tape when he really went off, it wouldn't be the case. But like, this was a part of Devin Booker's high scoring performance. This is a conversation about Wilt's 100 point game in terms of the way that the numbers were goose towards the end. Like, once you have a shot at history, who are you to think you're better than to take it? And that's ultimately what we're talking about is like, how will Bam Adebayo be remembered as a player? And like it or not, he's going to be remembered for a long time as the second highest scoring player in NBA history. Why would you think you're better than that? Just to avoid like, oh my God, we couldn't possibly intentionally foul a few times to get a couple more possessions. Like, get over yourselves, I think would be my main response. Like, that's a monumental opportunity and I think you should take it.

[B]

It's a new segment we should do. Get over yourself. Hey, you're not better than me.

[C]

It's just most of this podcast, to be honest with you, is get over yourselves. Including us saying that to each other.

[D]

I mean, and also the Wizards, like, you know, stop them if you're so mad about it. It's like they couldn't, you know, we were joking on the text about. Because we were laughing about like, oh, is that really? And then they show the replay and like Will Riley hacked the shit out of him on it. It's like, you know, shame on them. I think is probably the way you could flip this narrative. It's just like if the, if the Heat, if you want to be mad about the Heat gaming and spamming this one thing, it's just like it's really about that. The Wizards just could not stop them from spamming it. So, you know, I don't know. That seems like that's probably the ugly underbelly of the whole thing. I had to take about this. Can I, could I get one off here?

[C]

Get it off.

[D]

Because the free throws part of this was really interesting to me and I went back, you know, and you, you, your mind thinks like, okay, well, free throws are bloated, right? You know, we've had 80 NBA seasons. The 2025, six season ranks 66 all time in free throw attempts per game. The big thing here is the free throw percentage of the. Of the top 10 all time seasons that we've had in the NBA for free throw percentage league wide. The last seven seasons going back to 2019, 20 are all inside the top 10. So seven of the last or seven of the top 10 have happened the last seven seasons. So really it's. Guys are shooting the ball really, really well.

[C]

Yep.

[D]

My, my feeling here is these free throws are always a huge part of these big scoring outbursts. My thing is I think that free throws and more specifically the Noah shooting system are the GLP1 of scoring outbursts in 2026. Did you really earn it? That's. That I think is, is my take. Did you really earn it? If you're, if you're doing free throws,

[C]

pointing the finger at the Noah shooting system is the most Kyle Mann shit I have ever heard in my life.

[B]

So just so I understand this. So the Noah shooting system, which is like a big old contraption that's supposed to help your shooting form, I, that is at fault for high scoring, I

[C]

think all of the failings of modern life, it sounds like.

[D]

Well, okay, so I just, I had this take and I actually vetted this with a couple people that would. Or boots on the ground and would know and they were like, that's not true. So it's not true. We know that. I'll continue to say that that's my tinfoil sombrero. No, I mean, just guys are making free throws at a ridiculous clip.

[C]

What is that about?

[D]

Can you attribute that to Bam isn't considered a great free throw shooter? I mean, you would. He wouldn't be the first name off your tongue, right? You'd think more like a Steph Curry, a Tyler hero type. But is it just that great shooters are getting more attempts and that's why the percentage is up? Because that is insane. Seven of the. Of the top 10 recently. What's that about?

[C]

I think it is that I think, you know, we've transferred to a league where the person leading the NBA in free throw attempts is not Shaquille o'. Neal, it's not Gianna tantokounmpo. It's like Luka Doncic, right? It's like guys who can really knock down a serious percentage of these threes and the archetype of the center who really can't make any threes at all. Those guys, there's a couple of them in the league still your Mitchell Robinson types, but they are not really getting up a ton of attempts. It's all perimeter scores. And the bigs who do get a lot of shots and who do get fouled a lot are Nicole Jokic and Joel Embiid are guys who can actually knock them down in a reasonable race. So I feel like the anchors are just the. The high skill level across the board in the NBA right now is maybe more represented there than anywhere else.

[B]

I just think that this is the inevitable conclusion of most people in the league and anyone in any competitive field just finding a way to just like, iron out any sort of advantage and efficiency and make sure that they are honed in on the best way possible to do something. Our friend was. Was talking about this and going off about this on Twitter the other day, and I do think a lot of this can be ascribed to just anyone in a competitive field just figuring out the best possible ways to do something. He was going at the nerds for basically perverting what this Bam thing was as. As like a. Like it's actually the problem of the tanking teams and the nerds who have kind of undercut the league. But I do think he's ultimately stumbled upon a point where it's just like it is kind of incumbent upon the league itself in order to kind of legislate this out, because I think humans are going to, as we saw with the Jazz, just kind of adapt to any scenario. And I think that is kind of big word cloud of things all circulating around is like, I think a people like what came out of this was a lot of consternation about the league. And I think that's a big part of it. I just think like we're probably behind where people actually doing the things and like trying to execute within the rule structure are. And so in a way I'm a little surprised that like something like this has become so negative. But I guess overall, like I shouldn't be surprised because everything in the NBA has become pretty cynical and pessimistic.

[C]

It. It really has. I mean, just the sheer number of negative like acid tinged takes about this whole situation I find mostly baffling. Like at. At worst this is like a, huh, that was weird. And you move on with your life kind of situation. And yet because of the four quadranting that you laid out, Justin, it's just. It's really tapped into a lot of other feelings about the NBA. The people now use Bam as like the convenient avatar to get off whatever take is really on their chest and really like really something that they want to dig into. I just don't really see it as like being all that connected to those sorts of things. At the end of the day, it feels like a pretty isolated case. Yes, there are some things about the modern NBA that are happening here. A team is uniquely bad as the Wizards are right now. The ability for a big like Bam to get off the threes that he does, like, yeah, that is representative of something. It's also representative of just like Bam being hot on a particular night in which everything kind of just shifted out of balance in the universe. And we got this. It doesn't mean it's going to happen again next week.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I thought it was. It was kind of pretty interesting to see all of the kind of reactions to Kobe doing this a couple of years ago dredged up because the initial reaction from Kobe fans was like, Kobe didn't do it this way. Like it was just more naturally in the flow. And then instantly there was like a screenshot of him taking a free throw up 20 with 4.3 seconds left. And I think it does show how those sorts of things are lost to time. And then 20 years from now when we're like not on here and it's a bunch of like 3D children doing this sort of job.

[D]

No, It'll be a 3D avatar of me. I've already signed that away to Spotify. So speak for Yourself. You guys might be gone, but I'm going to be here still in digital and spirit.

[B]

You're part of the Ben Affleck. Just AI sign that away.

[C]

Yeah, it's gone, but I can't handle the Kobe stuff. I just of all like the fact that that game has become so sacred to so many people, and it's an incredible achievement. Anytime you can score that many points, it is the crown jewel on the ball. Hoggiest season that Kobe Bryant ever played. If that's what you want to celebrate about Kobe, who was an amazing player, I think you've just lost the plot mostly.

[D]

Yeah, that was the peak of, like, Kobe getting what. That's what people, I think forget about that time in his career is that was peak of, like, Kobe got what he wanted, Shaq got sent. Kobe's ruling the roost, and it's like he kind of enjoyed that for a while. And then it was like, okay, I want to win again. And then we saw a different. You didn't see as many of those scoring outbursts. It was a fun season. Like you were saying, Rob, and I was trying to remember what year that was, but I wasn't. That wasn't that broadcast in, like, four, three, like, it wasn't even widescreen. That's what. That's why I can always kind of remember. But, yeah, that. That was an interesting time where Kobe was kind of getting everything that he wanted, but the excess of it didn't lead to the winning that we saw later.

[B]

Yeah, there's just like a news brief. And it seemed like. It was like almost like a sidebar from Rick Bucher in the Dallas locker room across the country while this was happening. Because back in the day, when you were a local beat writer, you just got reactions from people about the stories that were happening elsewhere. And that was just like your news brief for the day. And it was a lot of Dallas players who, I guess Kobe had had a big scoring night against them a couple days before that basically being like, oh, only. Only two assists. Huh. Huh. And like, Dirk being like, yeah, you know, it's more about winning and all this other stuff. And so it did feel reminiscent to something close to what Bam is. I think it's just like most things in life is that things just got accelerated to an even bigger extreme with this. I think. I think a lot about the wire about, like, Marlo just being like the tougher version of what came before him. It's really much in that lane sort of thing. But I did say. I will say, like, the end of the game got so messy and kind of gross that I did stop and pause and be like, oh, this is. Like, this is tough. Because I think the follow from SPO at the end of the game, when the broadcast even assumed that they would stop and that he would just stop at 81 as some sort of tribute to Koby, was telling of, like, where kind of the scene was and how the feeling was kind of trickling out from there. And the fact that he was actually intentionally following in order to get him another possession, I think just happened to be like a comedy of error sort of things that almost, like, underline the farce of the whole thing.

[C]

It is a farce. Like, you're playing against the Washington Generals. Like, it was a farce to begin with. So let's lean into it. Like, let's make it worth something if it's. If you're going to play these games

[D]

well, what if we went into every single game? Like, I mean, what. Which one of these huge scoring out bursts does not have some, like, weird external help, like. Like a SPO or a calling it? Like, there's always some of that going on. If we went into a game every single time, and we were just like, we're going to see how many points Giannis can score whether or not we. We win or not. I just. That stuff is. Is always going on. And. Yeah, I don't know. I don't. I can't really think of a scoring outburst that's been purely natural that. That has reached that height. Granted, we don't have footage of the Wilt Chamberlain 100 points. Some people, there's conspiracy theories that it didn't even happen. Right. Have we heard that? Yeah.

[C]

Why aren't we using AI to recreate that? Like, why aren't we doing a fully, like, CGI Wilt Chamberlain, you know, stunting on dudes? For 100 points, I would watch an AI Wilt Chamberlain go for 100 in the best simulated form possible based on all the anecdotal evidence we have.

[B]

I heard something that, like, as part of OpenAI, which, like, I'll be honest, I only understand, like, 5% of all of this, so I'm probably not getting the details right, but I guess, like, the image of Homer Simpson is available to do whatever you want, but not the voice, and that's, like, kind of where they draw the line, which is very odd. And I don't know how we've gotten here, but what if it was Wilt instead, and you could just do whatever you want With Wilt, it is all about like coming up with your own scenarios in order to create 100 points. Does that sound like a good Friday night to you guys?

[C]

It does not. But that's the world we already live in and it's only going to get worse.

[B]

It's just, just weird times, you know, it's just. This is wild. I ultimately am glad that they let him do this because I think you're right. I think like, there really wasn't much going on to really feel excited about with the Heat. I know that they played better of late, but ultimately they'll probably end up at best, probably in the sixth seed, most likely a play in team. It just felt like it was something to grasp onto. And I think you've seen a lot of players in similar situations get pulled because there wasn't like it didn't fit within the unwritten rules of the game in order to go for this that like the game was over. To do this would be so gratuitous and would be offensive to the game and the other team. The fact that SPO, like didn't give a shit, I was kind of like, that's a little refreshing because to you guys overall point about like the high scoring, like, we might have seen this previously if another coach just like wasn't as uptight as SPO was. And so I'm glad we have this. It's just like, it just feels like an important thing. And so it was, it was gross at times, but like, you know, it was fun.

[C]

All success is gross at times. There's a seedy underbelly to anything if you look closely enough.

[B]

Justin, I don't know if you want to get down this, but like, yeah, a lot of, a lot of actors and celebrity types are. They didn't just get there just because they were nice and good at acting.

[D]

So, wow, what is happening?

[C]

How many bodies did they throw in front of the tour bus on the way to success? That's what I want to know.

[B]

A lot of kissing babies, Rob. You know, this is a, is a Hollywood elite now. There's a lot of shaking hands, a lot of patting on the backs and going to high powered parties in order to meet the right people.

[C]

Do I need to be one of those right people? I feel like my hand is not being shaked. It's like shaken enough, you know, I want to, I want to be courted.

[D]

Rob wants to be courted.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

I don't know. I thought, Justin, do you want to clear out and talk about and riff on the cabal of Hollywood success that you believe exists. You seem like you had a specific example you wanted to tee off on.

[B]

Maybe we say that for next pod. Why don't we take a break instead. When we come back we'll talk about some of these other stories. The rigor NBA show is brought to you by fanduel. Your Friday nights just got a little louder because NBA Happy Hour is happening on FanDuel every Friday from 6 to 7:30pm Eastern. FanDuel's got limited time specials to pregame the weekend boosts bonuses, surprise. All live in the app. So speaking of Eastern, I'm looking at the Eastern Conference odds because all of a sudden the Celtics are creeping up there. They're number one on FanDuel's odds to win the east at +1.90. As we're recording this, the Pistons were still number one in the east, all the way down in fourth at +4.60. I gotta be honest, I don't love the Pistons long term future in the playoffs probably maybe like a second round out, we'll see. But I like them to probably still win the conference. They're up three and a half games as we're recording this on the Celtics. So give me the Pistons on those odds. Plus 460 to win the Eastern Conference. That's NBA Happy Hour every Friday from 6 to 7:30 Eastern only on FanDuel, official sportsbook partner of the NBA. Visit FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get started. 20 select states or 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in. Required rewards are non withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements and max wager amount. See [e-mail] gambling problem call 1-800-gambler or call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic this episode is brought to you by Tommy Hilfiger. Here's what happens when west coast relaxation meets modern prep in Tommy Hilfiger's spring collection. Think light wash denim and new relaxed silhouettes paired with oversized trenches and chore coats with heritage inspired touches. Then take those rugby and polo shirts you love and elevate them with rich cable textures and new Tommy crests. And when easy breezy light layers and linen essentials, you've got laid back sophistication. Explore [e-mail] Snoring Gasping during sleep?

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[B]

All right. Elsewhere in the NBA. I feel like we're kind of having a moment here where there are a lot of things that have pretty historic consequences or potentially historic consequences that fall into the same sort of category with bam, where it's like, this is an important thing. Everybody is talking about this. Every podcast is doing multiple segments and the initial reaction is kind of to like groan about it is like this fudgeing storyline, right? Like, it's just so toxic and it's so naughty that it's like, really, as someone who does this professionally, it's like it almost feels like a burden in order to get into. But I almost feel like we have to talk about these things because if anything we're underselling this, like the potential consequences of them. I think BAM is one of Them. I think sga, I think what the spurs are doing and maybe what the Hornets are even doing are the type of things, Rob, where, like, I feel like if this were to happen in any other season, this would be probably the biggest story in the league.

[C]

Yeah. Or just at a different point in this season. And it's. I think it's all this stuff happening at once. Plus at a time of. Of year where, frankly, let's all be honest about it, a lot of attention is diverted from the NBA and the only reason people are coming back is for stuff like, you know, the spectacle of bam going off. These are enormous season defining, potentially era defining, like developments happening in real time right under our feet. We can start wherever you want, Justin. But like, I. I am constantly in awe by the little developments that are happening right now that feel strangely monumental. And that's just kind of where the NBA is in terms of, you know, changing one era over into the next. Looking to this next crop of young stars to figure out who is going to really kind of stand out and be, you know, the historical example we all look to 10 and 20 years from now that really set this time apart. I feel like we're kind of getting some answers to those questions.

[B]

Why don't we start with SGA then? Because he's on the verge of his own record, I believe. Tonight on Thursday, they're playing the Celtics in another marquee matchup. I gotta say, like, the one good thing about the NBA backloading their schedule. Like, I didn't appreciate how they basically cowardly avoided football, so made sure that like, no good games happened before this point. But like, we are backloaded with a good game practically every national TV night. And we'll get another good one tonight when they play the Celtics. But he's on the verge of breaking Wilt's record of 20 point games in a row. I think it's 127. And so he's on his own set of history. But I also think the Nuggets game

[D]

might be GOP 1 record, by the way. I just want to.

[B]

Right.

[D]

I'm kidding. I want to be on record. I love Shay. I just want to say. Yeah, you do.

[C]

You. I feel like both of you might need to apologize a little bit to Shay, you know.

[D]

Oh my Jesus. God in heaven.

[C]

Just. I'm just saying what an arc has been. What an arc for me.

[D]

One of the very first videos I ever made on the dime drop was Shay Gill just out just preaching his. Just preaching the gospel. Shay. I've made so many videos about Shay. He was in my banner and somehow this is. You live long enough and you're the villain I've come back to. We're weird about Shay. It's just. I just. I had to get that off. Just really, really funny how life works now. I hate Shay for some reason. Check the fucking receipts, folks.

[B]

That's right. I watched that video from Kyle. So I'm definitely in the same category. Same thing. Well, no, but I. I feel like Mondays was it. Monday's. The game against the Nuggets was a bit of an inflection point. Just in. In kind of the overall supremacy, I guess, for best player in the world mvp, however you want to categorize it like that felt like we've talked about Heisen moments with. With the MVP conversation. That felt like the type of thing that I will probably be thinking about the rest of the season, perhaps even longer into Shay's career, because it felt like the type of thing without a full complement on his roster. No J Dub, no Hartenstein, no chat even to win that game in that fashion felt like a moment. And so I almost think about it Rob, like. Like Chris does on the watch back back in the day of kind of like the. The. The best in the world belt sort of thing. I don't know if Shay is the best player in the world. I don't know if he's necessarily the runaway MVP at this point, but in terms of the belt, like who has the moment right now, it feels like that's Shay's.

[C]

That one feels inarguable. I think the other stuff though is fully up for grabs. I think it's a totally reasonable stance to claim that Shai is the best player in the world right now. That in terms of snapshot wise, not just who has the moment, not just who has like, you know, who's on the tip of everybody's tongue, but the actual basketball that they've been playing for, like a rolling four to six week period. He's been better than anybody and that's including coming back from injury during that time. So I. I just think he's. We already knew who he was as a scorer. We've seen it over a long enough time to be record breaking. I think games like that one against the Nuggets, watching how confidently he was moving the ball in that game and like the very delicate balance for any great scorer. Because I think one of the problems when you are someone like Shay who can get to any spot you want, it like warps your brain chemistry, right? What you think is possible because you can do anything becomes very hard to reel back in. And over the course of that game, where you had like 15 freaking turn or 15 assists and zero turnovers over the course of that game was just like a, a tightrope walk all night of an isolation score. Seeing two or three hovering defenders at all times and making the exact right pass at the exact right moment, but also forcing the issue when he needed to. Understanding that sometimes like the quote unquote right basketball play is taking a contested 17 foot jumper. Because you are Shea Gilgeous Alexander. And I think overall this season, really the last two seasons, if you want to continue like the championship lineage coming off of last year, him coming into his power has been about that for me of like the ideal balance of understanding what it means to be a leader, what it means to be a leading scorer, what it means to be a historical great in real time, setting the stage and setting the agenda for a lot of what basketball is right now.

[D]

I think something interesting about and this I think speaks to the sort of leveling up that's happened that we're talking about here where Shay is, you know, once again reasserting re reclaiming, especially doing it against Jokic. Jokic, my God, like Shay turned the corner on Jokic. A pick and roll just like he was a sports car. Just over and over, just, just doing simple laps. But every star, I've noticed over time, if you just go back and look, they are great inherently, they have something about them that is really difficult to deny. It's like if you go back, I mean, you know, Jordan OB coming along in the, in the ISO era, he develops his game, they players get a little bit of a boost a lot of times from the context that they're in. You know, Steph comes into the league and his skill set just ravages and just he levels it up. And considering the freedom of movement, considering the three point line and all those things that were there for him to access and sort of, you know, spam and build out on, you just see it over and over again. And I think that's something that's interesting about Shai's game is that as the spatial movement has happened in the NBA and freedom of movement and the whistle has changed and you see that a player of his size, the game became very much about like fly around, big closeout speed, covering ground. A player like Shai is such an interesting inverse of the, of those qualities that we were looking forward to play because his movement, he's one of the weirdest movers as a scorer that we've seen in a long, long time. He's hard as hell to officiate for that reason. He just, he puts you in jail. So I think he, he was going to be a great player. I think in any era, I think Shay was going to be a really good player. I think one of the things that helping is helping him be great in this era is that his skills and the intrinsic things about him that are good are just ravaging the way the, the current NBA is in the personnel and the way the game that is played.

[B]

Yeah, I think when I think of Shea, I think methodical and I think the typical kind of template for the superstar player that we all idolize and like the league kind of sets like its agenda with is like the Jordan Kobe type. And I think because Shay looks like that, you expect that. But he's actually more like Duncan older school Kobe than I think a lot of people would suggest. He's not dunking over anybody's head. It's a lot of just slow drip, mid range, pivot, pivot, Try to get to the free throw line to the point where like he almost seems grating to opposing fans. And because he's kind of like not all that exciting to watch if he's doing that against you, if he's just has the parade to the free throw line, that could just get annoying in a way that I could see if you're not a Thunder fan. But in a weird way, like Jokic is kind of, despite being more plotting and less of a physical marvel, the one that wows you. And so it's a little bit more inverted where it's like Jokic makes so many like brilliant things happening. Like, I almost feel like part of, I think where we gravitate toward is a lot of based off of what wows you, like, what interests you. Like we're talking about with the step factor and I don't think Shay necessarily has that. The thing that jumped out to me in that game with the two big shots, not just a one, but the second one, basically like one upping himself on the fly is like that was like a Steph Night night moment that I feel like Shay has had, but perhaps isn't very much in the conscious because he hasn't been in these spotlight performances, if anything, and I have to give the NBA credit because Lord knows nobody else will, including me most of the time. Like, this was a stage and she lived up to it. And I feel like it's going to stick in my mind and probably in the discourse more as a result of that.

[C]

Huh. I mean, but so does a moment like this stick out to you more than, like, the shots he hit en route to the title last year?

[B]

I think so. If only because the debate between him and Jokic is just, like, so still tense.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I do think timing matters in literally everything. And the fact that, like, something like this happened just feels like it has a stickiness. We talk about this in media and just, like, making content however you want to describe it these days. But, like, a stickiness factor matters more when there's so much going on. Right. Like, you just want to be able to pay attention to one thing. Like, this just feels like a moment in a way that, like, those were great plays and, like, they kind of contribute to a body of work, but, like, this feels like a very important moment, perhaps an inflection point in his career overall.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I do think that part is true. And I. I like the. The Jokic comparison in terms of just, like, the visceral feel of watching those guys play. Uh, I. I think that's a. That's really well put, Justin, in terms of, like, the wow factor that Jokic brings. And I think some of it is, like, the way Jokic beats you is he exploits what you're doing, right? It's like, you bring the double, he's going to make the pass over the top. You. You hedge too much in this direction, he's going to go that way, he's going to feel the double, he's going to spin around it. I think what makes Shai such a different beast is that he's not necessarily exploiting what you're throwing at him. He's just winning and scoring in spite of it at all times. And so they're inevitable. But the mechanisms for that inevitability, I think, feel very different. And it's one of the reasons why I think they're. You know, we reach for players like Duncan, we reach for these other historical examples because it's like, there's not really a past tread that Shay is going on. He's. He's an MVP that is, like, throwing all off speed pitches at all times, and we don't really know how to wrap our heads around that.

[D]

Comparing, like, Jokic and Shay to each other is really interesting, but what you're describing about him, you know, seizing what is available to him or given to him by the defense, there's like a micro macro chess game that they both play. It's like it's not that Che doesn't play chess, it's just he plays a different type and that's not to discredit him as a passer because he's become an amazing passer and he's a paint touch. Just he prints him. Just he's like. I would say he's the hacked ATM machine just spitting them out whenever he wants. You can't keep him out of the paint. But he playing a micro chess game in, in a way that I think hearkens to as an individual and as a score for whoever is in front of him. I, I said I think in that video we were talking about. I think I compared him to like trying to grab an eel in the dark in a swimming pool. It's just like you just. You're never going to be able to grab a hold of Shay. You just can't do it.

[C]

How many times have you tried to do that, Kyle?

[D]

I. I was speaking. You know, it's one of those, one of those old SeaWorld break in stories that I'll have to share for another, another pod. But no, I mean I think think he's such a master of like living in that. You know we were writing about this in the guide about. I was saying that there's a guy who can push the bullet time button. I think Shay is really what he's become one of the all time guys to do that. He can slow you down and, and really just punish guys. And I think that hearkens to another era of player coming back to the Kobe thing that I think people idolize. And I don't think it's any coincidence that we have seen this really rabid. Whether it's OKC fans, I think there have been a lot of people who've gotten on board. It's this, this appealing thing of the. The mastery of the individual that just kind of intoxicates people. But it's not, it's not masturbatory in a way that doesn't lead to winning. He's. He's also winning and he's also on the team that's probably going to win the title.

[B]

Well, I'm curious how you guys speaking of Kobe, like I don't know, I've just been thinking a lot about him in the wake of this bam thing but just in general with the way the league is trending just because it's such a stark divorce from like that era. Like it does feel like these days trying to pinpoint best player in the world feels more difficult than ever. Because there's so much competition for all that. And it gets back to this idea I was talking about before, about, like, the maximizing efficiency of everybody's playset. It does feel like. And we can, like, weave in Wemby in here as well. Like, it just feels like everyone knows the exact ways to be the best version of themselves. And like, what they're all aspiring to. This idea of efficiency no matter what, like, is kind of like the all end, all be all, sun, star and moon in the way that it probably wasn't before. But, like, do you guys find it tougher these days to pinpoint who is the best? Because, like, if Yokich was not hurt, like, clearly he's still kind of hobbling. He's been better of late, but, like, he's certainly had some moments where he's just looked not like, just prime Jokic, like, is that the difference here? And overall, like, are you having trouble, like, trying to find the small differences between SGA Jokic and I guess you could throw in Luka and some of these other guys.

[C]

Guys, I feel like some of that is just a LeBron vacuum where, like, for years and years and years, it was so self evident who the best player in the world was. And now there is a constant referendum. And I think Jokic kind of plugged that hole for a minute. And for a lot of people, it was just kind of empirical that, oh, YIC is having this kind of impact on the game. He's putting up these sorts of numbers. You can feel the impact. So tangibly, he's going to be the default answer to this question. But I think it's a. It's a question that if you want to look over a larger sample, we've just been grasping at for a long time. As soon as kind of LeBron started ticking off of that, you know, that place on the podium as far as, like, you know, medal and gold year after year after year after year, we're still trying to find a conclusive answer to that. And I don't think it's going to be as simple as, like, Shay, is that perpetually Or Jokic, is that perpetually? Or Giannis, was that perpetually? Like, the negotiation is kind of part of the point for where the NBA is right now.

[D]

I mean, do you think that, like, in any of these iterations of Shea and Jokic, an interesting thought exercise would be, are they on the level of, like, I think we would agree LeBron's had so many wine bottle years where he's reinvented himself Yeah, I mean, are any of those guys. We could probably pull up the BPMs from the years. Are any of those guys on the level of a LeBron? Or is it. Is it that the play is high to the point where maybe we shouldn't belly ache so much about there not being a huge gap? It's just that at the time, there wasn't as much talent and like, a 2013 as is now. Like, but. But at that core question, are those two guys, do you think, are they in the league of somebody. You mentioned LeBron. The highest highs of a LeBron.

[C]

Probably not. Probably not. Like, I mean, maybe the best Jokic season to date could technically stand up to historical scrutiny against, like, you know, some of the elite LeBron seasons. I just don't know. I. I think the overall body of work for LeBron is so unbelievable. And he also has one of those things in his favor where whatever you would have wanted him to do, he could have done. Like, you could have played any style, you could have put him at basically any position. Like, he unlocks basketball in such an interesting way that even someone like Jokic or someone like Shai does not. And so Shai already and already is and will go down as one of the great scorers in NBA history and probably one of the great overall players in NBA history. But you got to build that work brick by brick. And I say that in part because it's amazing that we've gotten here with Shay, they, like, I. I certainly. Kyle, you may have been on this early. I remember this was another, like John Sharks told me during that season with the Clippers, Shay is going to be a superstar. I did not believe him. I did not understand it. I was like, that looks like a really good supporting score to me. And all of a sudden, he has become this. And I think we, like, we want to rush ahead so much into the future of understanding and contextualizing who these guys are historically, that it's like, you got to let them do it. And part of the fun in doing it and being part of that process is seeing these kinds of games from Shea in real time, of seeing him become a slightly different version of himself, an accelerated one in this game, a more sophisticated one in that game. It's like, I almost don't want to put the ceiling on what he can be. But as far as what he's been so far, like, LeBron sets a really high standard for anyone to measure up to.

[D]

Yeah. Thinking back to. To the beginning of this, like, you were talking about charts, I think the moment that I realized, like, okay, like that he was maybe ahead of maybe where consensus was, was when I was laying out the guards in that draft, which was, you know, Trey Young and Colin Sexton. And I forget the other one, but I was like looking at them side by side and I was like, I feel like Shay's the most ready to play in a playoff game of these guys. And I was like, huh? I wouldn't have thought that before this process. And then. But I think the thing that maybe we didn't, you know, index for really well at the time was not to, you know, pat my own back on what I said earlier about him just being a sort of a weird, invasive species in the space. In the Pace and Space era. We were judging him on, like, can this guy be a movement shooter? Can this guy be a spacer? We were trying to fit him into that mind. Like, we were so drunk on the Pace and Space era in 2018, 28, 2019, that we never thought things could change. And granted, they have. Where, you know, it's. It's gone to the point where the whole league is so good at shooting that now, like, it's a possession game, it's gone that direction and getting in the paint and things like that. But no, I mean, I, I got to the point where I was like, this guy's probably going to be an All Star at some point. You know, when he was with the Clippers. That was as far as I went. I didn't even go. I didn't even go as high as. As where he is now.

[C]

I think what you're laying out, Kyle, in terms of the shape of the game is so important. Like, yes, the Pace and space stuff has ruled the NBA for so long now. And it continues to fuel these arguments about the overall health of the sport and what we should do with the three point line and whether the NBA is in a good place. I get all that. But the defining stars right now do one of two things right? They're either people who create space or they're people who use space. And Shai uses space better than I think maybe any player we've ever seen. And he has more to work with because of the era he plays in than basically anyone who came before him. And so that combination has just proven to be unbelievably potent.

[B]

Yeah, I said this at the start of last season when the Thunder really started to put things together and seemed like they were on a completely separate level. Does feel like now that the court is spaced out, it's more about navigating the space. And I was always marveling at Chet and the way that he can get from the three point line to the basket in a couple steps. Being able to do that at such accelerated speed for the Thunders defenders to be able to swipe in order to impede progress just felt like the next level of the terrain that we were heading toward. And obviously Shay kind of fits that mold because of the way that he's able to do that within that mix of that. I also think this is a good opportunity to talk about Wemby because he just completely warps space in a way that nobody literally ever has. In the midst of all of this happening, we bumped up Wemby to number three in our top 100. Honestly, like he probably won't get higher than that, but like, you have to stop and think about it where it's just like if we're talking about right this second, is he higher than that? Because just this stretch overall with him in The spurs winning 16 out of the past 17 is absolutely just blow your wig back. Mind blowing the fact that they've done this so quickly. But Wemby, the game against the Celtics the other night was just like the type of performance where like it probably went unnoticed, especially because bam was going off. But like the Celtics just gave him threes and then he just knocked them down. And like that was practically the game. He's gotten to the point where he's problem solving whatever you throw at him in the way that a Jokic typically does. And it feels notable, like it almost want to look back at this moment, Rob, and it feels like this might have been the moment where Wemby just kind of took over.

[C]

Yeah, I think overall his shot, his shot making and shot decision making this season feels like a before and after point for the league. It feels like the kind of thing that we're going to be talking about years and years from now as like, you know, LeBron had these moments too of like, oh, he really kind of harnessed his post up game at this point. Oh, this is when his pull up jumper became so much of a weapon for him. This is the year that Wemby kind of found the balance of who he needs to be as a scorer. And most of the time that's not taking that many threes clearly. But the fact that when push comes to shove he can and that he can still be an amazing scorer in the process, like, literally, what are you supposed to do with that? Like, how are you supposed to counter a player like him, when he presents the physical advantages, takes away so much from you and then responds to anything that you try to do. Like that is a not just superstar formula, but an all time great formula.

[D]

I feel like if basketball were the Truman Show. I feel like we are out on a raft in the little ocean that they made. And when I watch Wimby, I just feel like we're like, ding, ding, ding. Like, I just feel like that's the edge. I really don't. Where can we go? Honestly, he had a, he had a shot the other night. Like it was late shot clock. He just like comfortably cashed a 38 footer. I think it might have been in that Celtics game where it was like, no problem. I got this. I. I've been kind of work like Wimby, I think is the epitome of this just because of the way he's able to generate blocks and rebounds and dominate the class. But I feel like I was alluding to this before. I've been workshopping this. I have this thing that I've been calling the Hungry Hippo theory where if the league. If the league average, we were talking about the free throw percentage. If everybody is reaching a threshold of efficiently creating points out of pace and space, modes of like pick and roll, of like off ball movie, everybody can kind of shoot the ball. The three point volume's out of control. What's left is there are little places where if everybody shoots at the same place. How good are you at seizing the avenues where the possessions can be had? OKC is really good at generating steals. The, you know, the Rockets really good at leaning in on offensive rebounding. There are little avenues for this. I'm just submitting this to you guys. What's your initial thoughts on this? I don't. Maybe that maybe we could workshop the name. But I've kind of just been noticing that that's where the league's headed. It's like everybody can fucking shoot it now. This is the mode that we're going into now. It's just like, can you. Can you Hungry Hippo, those extra things. And Wimby, I think is an apex example of that.

[C]

I actually love the name. I want to make sure I understand the concept correctly. Which as you're describing it sounds a little to me like the difference now is are you good at stuff like, no.

[D]

Can you. What are you can. Do you have the means to. You know, I'm just picturing, you know, seizing the. Seizing the balls in the little thing. I don't know. These are Good questions.

[B]

These are good questions. Can you lean on specific advantages in a way that previously you had to be more all encompassing? Is that what we're going for? Like the fact that the, the Rockets can lean heavily into offensive rebounding as an identity is probably something that you probably couldn't do as profoundly or like as intentionally as before. Is that what you're saying?

[D]

If everybody can take equally sized bites of the apple. Yeah, we are going to bite the apple more than you, basically, is what you're starting to see, I think in the NBA.

[C]

Well, I mean there's kind of two states of being in the league, right? There's the. There' a state of being where there's something like the three point revolution and teams are at different places in it and then there's everyone has caught up, which I think is what you're describing, Kyle. And then what do you do now that the playing field is like relatively equal in terms of our understanding of what this stuff is? And granted there's still teams like the Pistons who managed to win an incredible number of games by not taking that many threes by playing a style that is distinct from everybody else. But you're right that like the knowledge is out there and there's no going back from it so long as this is what the court in the game look like.

[D]

Yeah, I, I think it's less about the shooting with the, with the Pistons. I'd have to sit down and look at this. At that they are going the, the trying to access the, the extra possessions that are there. They're really good at that. It's just balancing out. Maybe it's. They have other questions that, like the, the creator thing that we've talked about ad nauseam. Like I said, this is the initial volley. People I'm sure will hit me up and criticize it, but that's what I've been thinking about.

[B]

It feels like the top level teams have identities carved out based off top of their playstyle in ways that's probably more reminiscent to like college football or in the past with the NBA. Whereas before it felt like once the three point revolution kind of set in, everyone had a North Star in order to like what they prioritize. It does feel like we're chopping up the pie a little bit to the point where like teams are leaning in specific advantages that they feel like they can carve out for themselves because everybody's over here doing the same thing. And I think it's led to a lot of the stylistic differences that I think a lot of people were complaining about not having because so many teams take threes. Like the fact that a lot of these teams I look at, at the top are like, they're fine three point shooting teams. Obviously the Celtics take it to an extreme. The Hornets as a result of that are kind of following suit. There is that breed of team. But like the spurs shooting is like fine. Yeah, they just do so many other things well. And like part of that is just because Wemby is so good that they can perhaps sacrifice size, for instance, at other positions. And it's a little bit more skill based. But like the Pistons basically being like an old school Pistons team and trying to beat you up with just like one offensive player. It's just like there's just more, more flavors to sample from than I can remember in recent years.

[C]

It's very true. And I think Wimby, I wouldn't be surprised again, if you want to flash forward to the future. If we think about this point in time as being an era that's defined not by Jokic, even if he is considered widely to be the best player of his era, but as like a. Shea and Wemby interplay like they feel like inverses of each other in really interesting ways that I think we're going to be talking about and thinking about for a long time. In part because they're going to be competing against each other for a long time. But we're just coming off of talking about the way that Shay drives and the way he manipulates and the way he uses space. Like Wemby is doing all that stuff defensively in ways that are a little different from what we've seen before. And Justin, I know you talked with Jared about and Jared's been kind of like on top of this the whole way, I think with Wemby as far as like, no, look, defensive possessions where he will bait out a shot that he can then turn around and block. It's. It's a really interesting way to play defense that I think factors into this. Like, how do you control space as a modern big? And I think every, every big has this problem in their era. Right. Like, I used to think about Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan as guys who really crack the code on how do you defend multiple players at once in the pick and roll? How do you simultaneously contain both threats? That's kind of like not the game anymore. It's part of the game. But there's so much movement and there's so much space and there's so much shooting. You have to find other ways to be, like, a threat to multiple offensive players at once. And Wemby has created this sort of, like, he's not a Rudy Gobert Level Rim Protector, where he's sitting there right in front of you, and you see him and he might deter you as a result. Like, that does happen. But what's most terrifying is the idea that even when he's turned the other way, he sees you. And it's created this sort of, like. Are you guys familiar with, like, the Panopticon effect of, like, of surveillance, you know I'm talking about?

[D]

No, but I do want to know, please.

[C]

So it's this idea that, like, yeah, if, say, where you were creating, like, a prison system, right? Like, yeah, you could have cameras and guards everywhere and locks and doors and all these things, or you could have one tower in the middle and all of the, you know, cells around it, and you can't see who the tower is looking at. And because of that, it kind of, like, warps our psychology. Like, you always think you're being watched. You always think you're being surveilled because it's technically in line of sight. I think Wimby's becoming, like, a panopticon kind of defender, where even if he's technically looking the other way, you kind of think he's looking at you.

[D]

I love it.

[B]

Breakout right there. How did you get into this, bro? Like, you know, you doing deep jail research or.

[C]

I'm just all about prison reform state.

[D]

Not usually in this particular direction, but,

[C]

you know, sometimes we go down weird rabbit holes.

[D]

I just say if Wimby. If you sat down with your friends, like on NBA Live or 2K, you know, to the point where me, I'm dating. I'm being dating myself as really old by just mentioning NBA Live. If you sat down and created Wimby on a game with your friends and then played your friends with this guy, your friends would be pissed. Yeah, like, that's just how. That's how insane he is. Like, I. Yeah, it's. It's. It's just beyond everything.

[B]

Well, simultaneously to his individual rise, the spurs are quickly becoming just an absolute force. Before, it was like, oh, maybe they are the type of the team that would play spoiler to some of these bigger boy contenders that we were talking about earlier in the season. And then, like, obviously they had the thunder wrinkle where it's just like, oh, maybe they're just a bad matchup. For this team in particular, I'm looking at the race Right now, I gotta think that they're probably number two in terms of contenders. Do you guys agree?

[C]

I think I'm tempted to go there at this point, especially with, like, the Nuggets are such a wild card in terms of their health, in terms of whether they're just gonna pull it together. Like, they have to prove it too. And they get a lot by default because they have Nikola Jokic on their team. But, but how do you argue with what the spurs have actually accomplished?

[D]

I guess maybe it's equal. It's equal parts. The spurs have really ascended, but also just that the, The. The variables and the. The negative factors. For the Nuggets, time's just running out. I mean, you never, you know that. Never. You know, the. Tom Jonovitz, don't underestimate the heart of the champ. But if we get in a series, like we said, they've got the rehearse, like, punch, counterpunch thing. That's a huge advantage that young, young teams don't necessarily have, and they have to figure out. And, And I, I think that that's something that they have that maybe. That maybe may help them just sort of, like, go past what our expectations are based on what. How the season has gone. But I think San Antonio's in a great spot.

[C]

We kind of fast forwarded through February in a lot of ways, and it's like a lot of these teams only have, like 15ish games left in the season. Like, we are down to the stretch run, and this is kind of gonna be who they are.

[B]

Yeah. And I thought the Rockets win was kind of type of win that, like, really made me stand up and think about them a little bit differently, in part because of the things that were trickling out after the fact. Part of this is because the Rockets are dealing with their own internal demons. They got absolutely waxed by the Nuggets last night as we're recording this. But the. The talk out of that was, like, how they ran the same play like, 15 straight times and the Rockets just, like, couldn't do anything about it. Part of that is just Adoka's unwillingness to change. Part of that is Sengun's own personal problems. That's here right on top of that, the spurs are just so fucking talented. It just feels like they could spam something like that and do whatever they want because not only are they so effective at that, but also, like, the optionality that exists in here. Like, I don't. Whatever Rob was talking about before, was it the Decepticon effect or Panopticon Come on. Panopticon. I've always thought about them. I think about them more as, like, having Godzilla, but also having the fighter pilots that go to attack Godzilla, like he's co opted them and sent them back out. Because it's like you have this giant force and then you have all these little guys running around, fucking doing shit. It's just. It's nuts. It's wild to watch.

[C]

If you play against the spurs, you're just the buildings. Like, you're just the stuff that gets wrecked.

[D]

Primarily Spurs. The spurs are like the family from the Incredibles. And Dylan Harper is like, jack, Jack.

[B]

I mean, they're like, the Incredibles are

[D]

hard enough to deal with as they are.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And then you've got this youngster who's like, he might be MVP at some point. And we're just like, he's extra. But, you know, so as you're getting pummeled by them, you got, you know, Jack, Jack on top. You turning. Turn it, you know, multiplying himself. I'm just saying the spurs are like the Incredibles. That's what I'm saying.

[B]

I mean, you joke, but, like, he's had probably his. One of his, if not the best stretch of his rookie season. Like, he's not just like, hitting a rookie wall. It seems like he's getting better on the fly. Maybe he's just like a little bit more fresh after taking some time off from injury earlier in the season, but, like, just feels like he's like. I was worried about him being the type of player perhaps who wouldn't fit into a playoff rotation just because of the youth. The fact that, like, the shooting is a problem, especially with him in Castle and some of the combinations there. I thought they just might, like, sit him for stretches. That could just be an option. I'm starting to wonder, like, all of a sudden he might just swing playoff games. We talked about the Harden comp in previous podcasts. Like, I do remember Harden just coming in and absolutely warping some of those series. He was much farther along than being an absolute rookie. But, like, Harper feels like the type of guy who might have that effect this season.

[C]

Yeah. Especially because it's tempting to think of the spurs as a team that, aside from Wemby, doesn't have, like, a definitive answer to these various problems they would run into over the playoffs. The counterpoint is like, who are the opponents? Or what are the Knights? In which all three of Fox, Castle and Harper are all bad. It, like, almost will never happen and something will Always suit one of them over the other. So even if you don't like Fox in this particular game or think, like, oh, man, like, I. I wish he were more aggressive maybe in these particular instances, or I wish Castle were, like, a little. A little more restrained here. I wish Harper could show, like, a little more chord vision here or there. It's just there's. I feel like there's always going to be an answer within the three of them. And so maybe they don't have enough in totality to win four straight playoff series, but I think they're going to present a lot of problems for everybody just on the basis of one of those three guys being good basically at all times.

[D]

And they also have some players that are, like, momentary dudes. They have momentary dude capabilities. You know, that was. That was a superpower that that MPJ gave the Nuggets, which, you know, Vassell, any given night can just be like, momentary dude. 30 ball, you know? You know, that's. That's a really important thing to have.

[C]

Champagne. Momentary dude just lying in wait.

[D]

I thought Champagne was a G league player for a long time. Shame on me. He has really, really come a long way, man.

[C]

That might be Justin. Unfortunately, not this Justin. Justin Champen.

[B]

I'm an all Star, no doubt. It is interesting in contrast to the Thunder, too, because the Thunder felt so revolutionary at first, but now the fact that a lot of what they've settled into feels almost like a pretty tried and true template where they have a big three and they just have, like a rock solid all star cast of supporting players. It might be one of the better, deepest supporting casts, like, in recent history, if not all of history, but, like, it does feel a little bit more traditional. Whereas the spurs are like that curveball that you're not looking for because they have all three guys that could just, like, add something different on the fly. And like, you're saying you can mix and match. They just, like, they feel like a complete oddity here. And I wonder if that surprise factor, we have, like, another month or two for teams to catch up, but, like, right now feels like the surprise factor is almost like catching very good teams. Like, they just, like, aren't ready for them to be where they are right now, even if, like, we aren't ready for that as well.

[C]

Yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna find out. I. I look forward to our, like, our conversations and the discourse, trying to keep up if the spurs are, in fact, as good as they look right now. Because if this is just what it's gonna be for the next couple months. I think we're going to have to rectify with like a lot of the ways we think about basketball.

[D]

There's a big kid, the kids are all right kind of thing going on in the NBA that I think everybody that has belly ached about like, oh,

[C]

they did a let go of the

[D]

stars, blah, blah, blah. It's just like because that was going on where it was like, you know, they're only. The youth movement here is really, really solid. And I think this could be a hinging point with the, you know, I don't know. The Hornets are on this level as the same as the spurs, but I just think this could be a. Everybody kind of shakes their head and be like, okay, yeah, yeah, the youth are ready to kind of take the torch.

[B]

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[D]

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[B]

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[D]

Shot clocks, Big shots, upsets, aces, TGL Playoffs are here. First Atlanta Drive starts their repeat run against Los Angeles Golf Club. Then Rory's Boston Common Golf and Tigers Jupiter Links face off in their playoff debut. Who will advance? Keep up its playoffs. Tune in Tuesday, March 17th at 6:30pm and 9:00pm only on ESPN and the ESPN app.

[B]

So last thing happening in the NBA that I think like could be transformative. Hornets all of a sudden just look like Grant Williams is back and playing. Just has a really cool trading card collection. I don't know if you guys have seen that.

[D]

No, I'm shocked.

[B]

I've slowly gotten into like the, the card breaking thing happening on Instagram where they're just like opening packs of cards and finding like this, this super cool like reflector whatever. I have no idea what's going on. But just like the. You buying car or you watch?

[D]

Look them up.

[B]

I look them up like the past couple of days. They're really hard to find and super expensive. And I was like, I don't need anything in my life like that. I have to fix a ceiling.

[C]

You know, you're right though, about like the watching. Like I do sometimes feel like I'm watching someone do drugs. Like I'm watching Someone get a high and I'm getting the second hand high watching if they hit or. But I'm not sure who it's healthy for. But I do also find myself doing it. Justin. I got to say, great social content for people ripping packs out there.

[B]

I want to be a ripping packs guy. Yeah, we'd be a ripping packs pod. Like at the end of the episode.

[D]

I just. We could, we can have a ripping pack segment. We can get.

[C]

We could get sponsored so quickly. Ripping packs at the end of this, right?

[B]

Let's rip some packs.

[D]

Every time I buy, like, vintage basketball cards are always like, no, leave it unopened. I'm like, fuck that. I'm going to be dead someday. I want to open. I want to see what's in those packs. Fuck collection. Come on, let's. Let's open them up.

[B]

Although a side part of this is there's like Pokemon unopened packs that are going for like thousands of dollars. And this is like, I see the advantage for them. Ripping packs. Yeah. But the Hornets direct counter. Yeah, yeah, the Hornets. All of a sudden, like, we've talked about this in fits and starts. Like we've been tracking the story. But it does feel like over the past month or two, it's like become real for this season. And I do wonder, what are the legs going forward? So Michael Pino wrote about this on the ringer. It's a very good piece. Just breaking down their entire transformation this season. I recommend it to anybody. Michael Pena writes about the NBA. So they were so in January 1st, they were 11 and 22. The Hornets were. They are 22 and 11. Since. Love a little bit of symmetry. And I think the obvious comp here is the last year's Pacers. Pacers last year, 17 and 18 as of January 1, 33 and 14. The rest of the way. I think it's like the Pacers, Rob. But I'm also starting to see hints of like early warriors.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Like, is that.

[C]

Let's chill.

[B]

Is that sacrilegious? Like,

[C]

just like it is as you say it.

[B]

The Seedlings of it, though, do remind me where it's just like, oh, this team might have everything. Like they're not going to be fully formed dynasty, all that sort of stuff. Throw that out the window. But just in terms of like, like, just almost like stumbling into something. Like the right players start to click and all of a sudden we just think about this differently. Like, I guess this is happening every year now because the Basers just did it. But this feels like the type of thing where we need to stop down and talk about because it feels like this could be a moment here.

[C]

I love the Hornets. I just, I just want to be responsible about our comping here because not only is the warriors one, I think still way out of bounds. Like a lot of saplings remind you of the Amazon. If you squint hard enough, you know, like there's a long way to go before we're talking.

[D]

Did you just make that up? Yeah.

[C]

Are we not allowed to make stuff up on this?

[D]

Gez B po it over here. Nicely done.

[C]

Look, I, I even the Pacers, I think like the Pacers obviously had a similar turnaround over the course of last regular season. Ended up going on one of the most impressive and charmed playoff runs in NBA history. And I think they also did it in part because they got as high as the fourth seed to get into the playoffs in the first place. And so, so in terms of what's happening with the Hornets right now, I think they're in real competition for a locked in like potential six seed playoff spot. That feels like something that could be in play for them. They've certainly been as good or better than any of the teams that they're trying to climb over. Are they going to get any higher than that? Are they going to like crack into that very select top four in the East? That might be a little too much, but long term there's so much to love here and short term there's so much to be impressed by. Not just like with the starting lineup that's basically a Rocket every night out, but a bench that just makes sense and is deeper than it's been with the addition of Kobe White. Like you take that starting five, you replace Con Canal with Kobe White. That works. You swap out Moose like for Cockbrenner. That works. You know, you bring in like any combination of role players that they have coming off the bench right now and it just seems to kind of sort of fit. Like that's all you really want in a playoff contender at this stage. To have like the high end talent of Lamelo and Khan and Brandon Miller and then all these supplementary pieces that just play like sensible basketball. That makes sense with what you're trying to do.

[D]

I think if you're going to be responsible, if you're, if you're going to invoke that name, if you're going to, if you're going to bring that name out, I think the responsible spiritual thing for us to do and sprinkle water around here, around my podcasting area here is. I think you have to be specific about which year. I mean I would. I would really pump the brakes on like no, this isn't like 14ish warriors. Because that was pretty special. If anything you might talk me into like this has 12 like warriors 2012 vibe. Maybe somewhere in between because remind us where that is.

[C]

Yeah, that's. Who was on the 2012 Warriors.

[D]

That's pre Iguodala. That's. I don't think. I don't think Bogut was quite. They're gonna. They're either gonna have to import some adults to sort of level up their seriousness, which I don't know if they're in that mindset this summer could be interesting for that.

[C]

So.

[D]

Yeah, that would be kind of my thought on that. I was gonna say too, man. I mean like you want to talk about playoff atmosphere just to go and just like if you could. If I could smoke vibes, like feel good vibes. The Hornets vibes in this playoff series is going to be pretty fun at the Spectrum Center. That's going to be wild in there because that they are starved. It's been a. It's been a desert for them.

[C]

I mean, let me tell you, you can smoke vibes. I think that is a thing you can do.

[B]

It's true.

[D]

You can get to the same place.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

If we got moose hats, would you guys wear them?

[C]

1000% moose.

[D]

Do they have moose hats like that? I just haven't seen it.

[B]

Okay. Antlers. Yeah. Some people wearing them. They cut to the crowd and like I think like Andy Roddick was wearing them, which I thought that was like a clear sign of like this people got something or plugging in. Because to Kyle's point, like I was literally. I covered the Hornets for their last playoff series. That was literally a decade ago. I think it was the 201516 season or maybe 16 17. I can't remember. This was the seven game first round series that they should have won against the Heat. Heat. And I did that entire stretch. I just alone for ungodly amounts of time. I remember just sitting in a Charlotte hotel. It was a very odd for you.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

But they did perk up because I will say overall Hornets fans and just like the arena. Not a lot to. To really look for, you know, but when things click in the enthusiasm is there. So it could be rocking.

[C]

How many fan bases are you looking to antagonize today?

[B]

Today all on fire, all the time.

[C]

I mean that's just every week. I guess you're right.

[B]

Well, there Just hasn't been much there for the Hornets. And I think that's probably if we're going to poke holes in this warriors comp. And I think Kyle's correct. I think it is early Seedlings warriors, not full sapling warriors would be just the stark division between earlier in the season and now. Yes, I, I just look at it, Robin. But a lot of the things that have worked for them are things that they've been trying for so long and things that we hoped would happen and are seem to be clicking in naturally. We could talk about the Lamello factor. Like maybe he just kind of goes off the rails. Like every time he gets into one of his like Humvees that are like bright purple and then goes off into the sunset, I'm like, oh, this is. Maybe I should pump the brakes metaphorically here. But he has kind of blended into the, the surrounding talent and they have taken us that forward Khan and Miller and I guess Musa too. Yeah, in a way that is natural and it kind of plays upon his best qualities, which is like as an orchestrator connector type who could just make things all happen. And so like the progression is, is, is steep. Like it's a very quick trajectory, but it also feels kind of organic, I think.

[C]

So much of the difference with this year's team is if you were asking Lamelo to be an all encompassing superstar where he is the stabilizer and the ceiling raiser at the same time, he's just not really that kind of player. But the combination of Khan and Brandon Miller specifically and how steady they've been in have given them such like a sturdy base to work with. Where then Lamelo can be not just a wild card element, but the like, the idea of him like jumping the tracks to kind of take you where you need to go even when you don't want him to, is such an interesting element with this team that I think they absolutely need. And him being free of the responsibility of doing some of the other just like everyday production and even some of like the every play orchestration I think has been freeing and valuable for everyone involved. Involved.

[D]

We were, you know, the other day when we were talking about his cars, where we were, I compared one of his cars to like a Jared Leto Joker car. Basically is. Is Lamello just the Jared Leto of the NBA? Like you'll see him at times.

[C]

The rudest thing you can say about somebody.

[D]

You'll just, you'll just be like, wow. I mean that was pretty. That was a cool character. That was impressive. Weird. Wow, that was odd. But it's like. It's like I want to bottle it in a way.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

I don't want a whole Jared Leto movie. You know, I'd like him in a bit at a small, smaller. I think creating the parameters for his brilliance is kind of what you're alluding to, which is so colorful, literally at times and just off the rails at times and brilliant. But it's inefficient. I mean, if you go. You go and look at like his pick and roll efficiencies and things like that, it's. It's never where you think it's going to be. And I think you're probably right. I think the sanity that they've added is a word I feel like I've used over and over again with like Khan and Kaufbrenner and the guys that they've imported, even. Even Seon James. I think that it's. It's helped them, and I hear here it's helped them establish an identity that's more productive and going in a good direction. And I've heard clips of them talking about their process. One of the things I think they're going to have to answer is this team is going to have to establish. If we were talking about football, they'd have to. They need to establish the run, basically, because we know that these can guys can fly around and be skillful and things like that. You're going to come up against these, like, really athletic, switchy teams out top. I think Boston would be a good example of that. You're just going to see that the Pistons, they're going to need to prove that they can establish, like, we can get to the basket, we can get in the middle of the floor and establish that first. Because that's what teams. Because teams are going to try to take away what they do. Really good east, west shooting the ball.

[C]

I think some of it. Oh, go ahead. Sorry.

[B]

Yeah. Although it has been more difficult of late. Just like some of the small, small stuff that they're doing. And just like the, the Absolutely. The shot making from three just doesn't seem repeatable. I guess if we're making comps for Lamello, I do find myself stopping and wondering because I have been laboring over this warriors count for a little while here. Not just on this podcast, but just like in my free time. Like, is he the Monte of this? Is he like someone who connects everything, or is he the sacrifice to get

[D]

to say, connect in the same sentence?

[B]

No, what I'm saying is, like, that's Lamelo's style of playing, but I'm saying the Monte comp is that he is the sacrifice to get something to a more sophisticated version of this team.

[C]

So like spiritually a Monte, but not. You never want to be the symbolic Monte. It's like never where you want to aspire to in life. So I hope that's not the case. I think there's enough interesting and elevating happening with Lamelo to make him something else entirely. Where yeah, he's never going to be perfect. He's going to drive every coach he plays for crazy on occasion, just going to be a part of what he does. But I'm. I am down for the trade offs in a way that, that I never was with someone like Monte in terms of what he brought to a team. Like, I think they just represent fundamentally different things and some of that is just the context in which they've been put. Like if you think about Monte and the player he was as a first option scorer who needs to carry a team, that's just not going to work. If you think of Lamelo as somebody who can transform a player like Khan, who can transform a player like Musa Diabatte, who I think is just like unlocked the season in a bunch of different ways, that's a lot of who the Hornets are right now is, is opening up for those guys based on the playmaking and the attention and the razzle dazzle and yes, some of the insanity that Lamello brings to the table.

[D]

Mississippi Bullet, man, that's one of the all time nicknames. That's Monte's nickname.

[C]

Never heard that before. The Mississippi Bullet.

[D]

It's a fucking incredible.

[B]

People just be saying shit.

[C]

I mean, it's good. I didn't know what was happening. I feel like I missed that bullet.

[B]

Is it a reference? Was there like a, a train called the Mississippi Bullet?

[D]

I don't know, it's just he's small and he scores. I think Jackson, Mississippi, Lanier, something like that. High school. No, it's interesting because I was thinking about the like bottling the thing that can go out of control. It's like Lamelo is obviously play style completely different than, than Draymond, but it's like for Draymond, his like spirit is the thing that's like out of control, that needs to be bodily and control to. It's like, I don't know. There's a, there's a Jekyll Hyde thing. I think with every great team where you, you or maybe not, I don't know. Just thinking in Real time here. I joked about the Grant Williams thing, too. I think he's been an interesting, like, just come back. They're importing these new North Carolina guys with Kobe White and Grant Williams playing, giving them little things here and there.

[C]

That's.

[D]

That's been surprising to me.

[C]

Well, let me ask you both this. Like, during this stretch with the Hornets, they've had a couple of amazing months now. They've had this incredible turnaround. Who on the team do you think about differently than you did before? Is it a lamelo? Is it Khan? Is it Brandon Miller? Like, who is it up and down the roster that, to you, is kind of like occupying a different space of your brain?

[B]

I think Khan and Miller have solidified themselves as the type of duo who could lead a contending team. And that's not necessarily, I think differently about them because I always had that simmering about Miller, but it is really just realizing their potential. So earlier in the career, career. And that does feel like the difference between the type of team that we're talking about at the highest upper echelon and some of these others. And to see that sort of seedling right now just kind of in the primordial ooze of their trajectory, like, is very thrilling. And it does have me wondering on this sort of, like, higher Warriors Pacers level as a result of that. Like, they have everything that I think a team is searching for in order to build forward. And so, so, yes, they have a lot of work to do. Like, isn't Bridges, like, a factor? Can they build out their bench a little bit more? There's a lot to go from here, but I kind of wonder if they're like, they've done the hard work. We didn't think about this. In fact, I think going into this preseason, we're like, are these guys just going to keep tanking for five more years? Like, at what point do you just say yes to, like, having a pretty good team? If anything, I think they've stumbled upon the right players and also the right coach to, like, at the very least, lean into the advantages they present.

[D]

I, I, well, I think it's gotten to the point where they deserve enough credit, where I don't even think we can say, stumble, because I think the personnel moves have been the pattern of it being so sensible and so on the nose and correct for what they know or for what they needed. I think that it's been very purposeful, and I think that's to their credit. I think the player that, like, has probably shifted the most for me, it's like, I mean, there are little degrees of it all over the place. It's like I kind of, I had my era of like wondering, you know, where I kind of saw Lamelo as a primary. It's like, maybe not quite. I saw that and I kind of thought that he and Miller were at odds with each other in that sense, where I was like, I kind of feel like Miller probably is on track to be a primary. I think he's probably shifted the most for me where I'm kind of like, okay, Brandon is probably my second, third creator, ball handler guy. Whereas in the past I thought, you know, the Horns were maybe gravitating towards building around him. But you need a lot of good players to go the distance. So maybe that's, you know, as we're seeing, you know, the Pistons would love to have a Brandon Miller or somebody, you know.

[C]

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I do think it's a good note about the overall approach that the Hornets have taken. Like this era of team construction for the Hornets, like the Jeff Peterson era. To me, they just brought in some like very sensible basketball players in a lot of ways. Like guys who just understand how to play in a way that, you know, some of the remnants of previous Hornets regimes may have not were a little bit more like reaches for potential or reaches for athleticism or reaches for like a little bit of pop as opposed to are you someone who can coherently put 24 to 36 minutes on the floor and like you can see that in the payoff of someone like Seon James who just like looks like a full grown basketball player and does normal, responsible basketball things. And if you have enough of those guys, I think your, your floor is just going to be pretty high.

[B]

I think they've just done a sensible job of cleaning things up, up and just making the sort of right decisions that don't necessarily put them over the top, but like just kind of like steadied the ship to allow for some of these more talented guys to pop, which seems pretty simple. But then you look around the league and it's just like that's like the hardest work for some organizations, especially some of the ones kind of at the bottom of a barrel. And so, you know, you got to give them a lot of credit for the very least setting a baseline for competence for this to happen. Because I think it's not just personnel, I think it's the coaching staff. I think Pina had a really good point in his piece where he's like they're kind of borrowing from a lot of successful organizations, not just the three point shooting and the volume for the Celtics, which I'll admit I was a little turned off by at the start because the growing pains of Brandon Miller taking 12 to 15 threes a game at the start when he wasn't ready to do so was pretty ghastly. But it has worked out to their benefit. The pace stuff and the depth with the Pacers and then also with the Thunder, it's just like, seems like they just taken like the right cues and have just done this sensibly and like they're reaping the benefits as a result. I think the big question though is like this season, like, like what is possible here? Is this just like a firm push of the Celtics or the Pistons after getting out of the play in or like is this the team? Like if they get to six, let's say, like could they threaten the Knicks? Could they win a four or five sort of matchup? Like Rob, what's the expectation there season right now?

[C]

I think firm push is fair. Like I think that's a great outcome. If the Hornets get to the playoffs and put the fear of God in the Knicks for a minute, like, I think that's a reasonable thing to, to want for this team, them against the Knicks.

[D]

I mean, speaking to what I was saying about there's, there's going to be, there is going to be a team, I think that is going to be athletic enough and switchy and out enough out at the, you know, horizontally. As I talked about that on Zach Low show, they become one of the most maddening teams in the league to deal with like east west on the court. The Knicks are going to be in a good position. Granted they don't have the rim protection of some of these teams, but giving them a good series I think would be a nice, you know, and that's the model, I mean the Pistons followed last year and look where they are, you know, maybe this, maybe next year they, they level it up again. I feel like the Knicks are going to be in a good position to, to bother them. Right? Do you think so or disagree with that or.

[C]

I think they would be, especially with the way that Cat has been playing. I think I think they could present some real problems.

[B]

Yeah, it's probably too soon to start talking about playoff options, upsets, but like I'm thinking big, I'm thinking long term with a lot of these things. I just. All of a sudden it feels like we're in a moment. I don't know. It just feels like a lot of things are happening that are consequential in the NBA, so what a time.

[D]

The kids are all right.

[C]

All right.

[B]

Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Monday, as per usual. A little college stuff, little draft stuff. We working in from that point.

[D]

Rob, are you.

[B]

I've heard of it.

[D]

You ready?

[C]

I'm vaguely familiar. I don't know.

[D]

I think. I think a firm push is good. Weren't those your words? What's wrong with the firm bush? Nothing. Yeah. You. You ready to roll?

[B]

You.

[D]

You're watching your Longhorns? No Sean Miller?

[C]

Definitely not.

[B]

Okay, great. So. So look out for that next week, then we'll talk to you then. 21 plus and present in select states for kids. Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-887-78-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.