The Biggest All-Star Selection Debates

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ringer NBA Show – "The Biggest All-Star Selection Debates"

Date: January 19, 2026
Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann
Format: Group Chat

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Justin, Rob, and Kyle dive into their All-Star picks for the 2025-26 NBA season, focusing on the biggest debates over the final roster spots. With the age-old positional requirements now gone and the new "USA vs. International" All-Star format, the crew dissects which players are locks, who’s on the bubble, and the shifting landscape of NBA stardom. Along the way, they unpack how voting works, muse on the quirks of All-Star selections, and riff on the evolving NBA ecosystem—all with plenty of banter and running jokes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. All-Star Voting Format Changes

• Positionless Ballots: The NBA’s move to a positionless All-Star selection process simplifies nominations but brings new challenges for deciding between candidates, especially among guards and wings.
  • Rob notes: "Now that there’s no excuses and it's just like, who are the best 12 guys... it streamlines the process but creates different areas where now it's challenging. All of a sudden I’m really fretting over starter vs. reserve for that final spot." (02:55)
• USA vs. International Format: New twist: after the teams are selected, players are split into U.S. and international squads, leading to awkward self-identification cases (e.g., Donovan Mitchell’s Panamanian claims).
  • Justin jokes: "Get strapped in for that. I think I have bulls—t." (07:34)
• Selection Process: Starters are determined by a mix of fan, media, and player votes; coaches pick the reserves. (04:46)

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2. Eastern Conference All-Star Debate

Consensus Starters

• Kade Cunningham, Jalen Brown, Tyrese Maxey, Giannis Antetokounmpo
  • Justin shares Maxey’s minutes stat: "Tyrese Maxey is averaging 39.3 minutes a game... That hasn’t happened since 2011-12." (10:03)

Final Starter Spot Debate: Jalen Brunson vs. Donovan Mitchell

• Rob’s Case for Mitchell: Fewer offensive options in Cleveland, yet more efficiency and team impact than Brunson.
  • Rob: "Donovan Mitchell has been the more efficient creator and more efficient scorer. ...The Cavs have been better with Donovan Mitchell on the floor than the Knicks have been with Jalen Brunson." (13:22)
• Justin’s Counter for Brunson: Recent Knicks games without Brunson show his outsized value.
  • Justin: "Without Brunson, [the Knicks] just seem a little lost at sea." (14:05)
• Kyle on Playstyles: "Mitchell is a better movement shooter... more creative passer... just a more dynamic offensive player than Brunson." (15:21)
• Team Context and Impact: Both the Cavs and Knicks have underperformed, complicating how to weigh individual impact vs. team context.

Locks and Benches

• Jalen Johnson became a near-lock for the whole group; Rob: "He is sort of the immutable piece that has always worked." (19:17)
• Scotty Barnes praised as a disruptive defender and clear All-Star (19:46)

The 12th Spot, Surprises, and Bubble Choices

• Candidates: Towns, Norm Powell, Franz Wagner, Siakam, Bam Adebayo, Josh Giddey, Desmond Bane, Con Kanipple, and more.
• Norm Powell vs. Bam Adebayo:
  • Justin’s logic: "Feels like the offense is so over-reliant on Powell... Bam’s offensive season has been pretty poor." (36:10)
  • Rob: "Norm's ability to score in one-on-one situations is really what makes the Heat viable at all." (37:03)
• Team Performance: The group wrestles with whether All-Stars should come from losing teams and where to draw that line.
• Karl-Anthony Towns: Included by default due to productivity despite frustrating play (34:10)

Honorable Mentions

• Bam Adebayo, Josh Giddey ("If he was healthy, he'd have a good case"—Justin, 38:45), Siakam, Con Kanipple, Evan Mobley, Joel Embiid

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3. Western Conference All-Star Debate

Clear Starters

• Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Nikola Jokic, Luka Doncic, Victor Wembanyama

Fierce Contest for 5th Starter: Anthony Edwards vs. Steph Curry (and Jamal Murray)

• Ant Edwards: Incredible clutch stats (clutch eFG% of 85!), big moments, and ascending stardom.
  • "In the clutch, he's shooting 85 eFG%... That's better than a Steph Curry open three." (44:01)
• Steph’s Case: Rob leans toward Steph’s singular impact and the chaos he governs on a dysfunctional Warriors team:
  • "Steph is the only reason anyone with the Warriors basically has a job right now." (45:26)
• Jamal Murray: Recognition for carrying the Nuggets during Jokic’s absence with star-level play and consistency.
  • Justin: "They're five and two in games without Jokic. [Murray] is scoring 31, 9.5 assists, and 5 rebounds." (51:24)
• Luka Debate: The pod reflects on Luka's defense and the Mavs' struggles, questioning whether he’s a lock above Ant or Steph.

Bench Locks and Bubble Spots

• All agree: Jamal Murray, Deni Avdija, Kevin Durant, Chet Holmgren.
• Chet Holmgren vs. Alperen Sengun: Chet’s defense and unique role give him the edge this year.
  • Rob: "He’s one of the best defensive players in the world and I want to reward that. There’s not really a blemish on it." (56:01)
• Rockets Representation: The group grapples with whether two Rockets (Sengun and Durant) are warranted vs. giving a spot to Devin Booker, whose presence is debated due to Suns' middling record but lauded for leadership and steady excellence.
• Booker’s Leadership & Context: Rob highlights how essential Booker is to Phoenix’s offense and overall fabric, contrasting his role with Dylan Brooks’ “emotional totem” vibes. (65:17)
• Michael Porter Jr.: Praised for thriving in a new role post-Denver, showing meaningful growth and composure as Brooklyn’s leading option. (22:09, 67:57)

Kawhi Leonard’s Complicated Case

• Unanimous selection for the games he’s played at an elite 50/40/90 rate.
  • Justin: "If you'd asked me to list the five guys who have been bulletproof this season, he's on there... When he plays, the Clippers are a completely different team." (76:08)
• Concern: If he misses more time or controversy about the Clippers’ "aspiration investigation" worsens, does it matter?
  • Group agrees: Off-court salary/money issues shouldn’t factor into basketball honors, unless it affects team chemistry. (81:12)

LeBron James & The Veterans

• The group considers whether LeBron could sneak in as an injury alternate, especially amid retirement speculation prompted by his "23 for 23" patch. (82:53)
• Rob expects the league will want him in: "There’s a decent chance he ends up making this team because of who he is... the shadow he casts over the sport." (84:52)

Honorable Mentions

• Rudy Gobert ("potential DPOY-worthy season"—Kyle, 88:30), Zion Williamson, Lauri Markkanen, James Harden, Julius Randle

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the All-Star Format:
  • Justin: "Maybe a little anime action... There's just a 13 reason why Pascal Siakam is not on the..." (02:22)
• On Tyrese Maxey’s minutes:
  • "I can't remember the last time I saw that... That hasn’t happened since 2011-12." —Justin (10:03)
• On Ant’s Clutch Play:
  • "It’s brain-melting what he is doing in crunch time." —Rob (45:26)
• On Michael Porter Jr.’s transformation:
  • "He’s doing so much and is so clearly the best thing that the Nets have going... pretty easy inclusion." —Rob (22:11);
  • "It is an incredible credit to him that he’s taken this opportunity where he’s been basically jettisoned from one of the true contenders in the league and taken it in stride." —Rob (67:57)
• On the surreality of meme references:
  • "The meme is the people's reference is what you're saying." —Rob (24:31)
• On Kawhi’s All-Star case amid controversy:
  • "If you are playing to this standard, I'm gonna kind of move heaven and earth to make sure there's a place for you on the team." —Rob (79:01)
• On All-Star philosophical dilemmas:
  • Kyle: "The All-Star Game is just kind of odd, isn't it? We're talking about a team sport but trying to reward individuals." (66:09)
• On LeBron’s possible retirement:
  • "That patch thing is very weird and ominous...people are on red alert. That might be a signal that this might be the end." —Justin (84:08)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:55 — NBA's shift to positional-agnostic All-Star ballots
• 04:46 — Starters vs. reserves selection explained
• 10:03 — Tyrese Maxey leads the NBA in minutes; historical comparison
• 13:22 — Rob makes a detailed case for Donovan Mitchell over Jalen Brunson
• 19:17 — Why Jalen Johnson is a bench lock
• 36:10 — Debate: Norm Powell vs. Bam Adebayo
• 44:01 — Anthony Edwards’ clutch performance breakdown
• 51:24 — Jamal Murray’s stats sans Jokic
• 56:01 — Rob’s process switching from Sengun to Chet as an All-Star
• 65:17 — Assessing Booker’s centrality to the Suns, role of Dylan Brooks
• 67:57 — Rob on Michael Porter Jr.'s growth
• 76:08 — Discussing Kawhi’s performance and injury caveats
• 82:53 — LeBron’s "23 for 23" patch and possible retirement tea leaves

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Tone and Chemistry

The episode features friendly ribbing and sustained in-jokes—Reese’s seasonal candy, fake plant puns, and plenty of self-deprecation. The hosts blend deep basketball insight with casual, irreverent pop culture asides, making the pod both substantial and approachable for NBA fans.

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Conclusion

This All-Star debate episode is a deep exploration of what constitutes NBA stardom in 2026, questioning tradition, scrutinizing statistical and intangible impacts, and highlighting how much context—and fun—matters in All-Star selection. The trio provides both granular breakdowns and big-picture NBA reflections, making this a must-listen for fans invested in the league’s evolving landscape.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Ferrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle Man. Guys, the Jonathan Kamingo watch is on. Every hour on. On the hour. We're going to check in on the hottest name on the trade market. First up, Rob, Jonathan Kaminga. Is he a good player or not?

[B]

I'm going to go respectfully, probably not. And that's at least in any meeting.

[A]

We'll check in an hour from now just to see if it's still the same thing.

[C]

Now, frankly, my butt hurts from sitting on the pins and needles. I need a break. It's, it's getting, it's agonizing.

[B]

For the record, him not being a good player does not mean we can't do a 24 hour telethon to re home him wherever it is that he would like to go.

[A]

Well, we'll check in an hour from now to see if he is still indeed not that good and thus not important enough to talk about. But today's adventure is more about the good players in the league, the All Stars. We're going to pick our All Star ballots and go over specifically the biggest tension points of the debate process. Unless you guys have anything else you want to get off your chest. Rob has some ferns in the background now.

[B]

Well, I'm becoming a plant guy in my advanced age. We need to find new challenges. We need to find things that we can embrace that will force us to evolve. And in my history, I've killed basically every plant I have tried to raise. So we're coming back to it. You know, we're, we're turning over new leaves, so to speak.

[A]

That was good.

[C]

Nice, nice, good.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Are we going to do, Justin, are we going to be like massaging these points of tension out? Is that kind of what you're getting at? That this is a, you know, who's doing, we're doing like an, an All Star spa kind of thing. I don't know. All of us together. That to be three dudes massaging thing.

[A]

Yeah. Or maybe like an after D sort of thing if you want to get.

[C]

Into that massaging After Dark, that's what the people that might change our classification on Netflix.

[B]

But honestly, we've not been thinking enough about that. Like, how do we get into a weird subcategory, you know, a mo. Like the moody thrillers starring Oscar nominees. Like, how do we get into that subcategory? What needs to happen?

[A]

Maybe a little anime action.

[C]

There's just a 13 reason why Pascal Siakam is Not on the.

[A]

Well, I don't know how you guys felt about this, but I would say this was a relatively easy exercise for like 90% of it. But the last 10% was excruciating. I felt like there was like a handful of spots that were just pretty difficult. Do you find like that was because Rob of maybe them switching up the way we do this now. Cause now it's positionless. Did that affect you at all?

[B]

I think when there were designated positions, it just made certain things impossible. Like, you would just have to accept that certain guys that might deserve it aren't going to make it because there aren't enough wild card spots and the positions don't quite shake out the way they need to. That was a fact of life. Now that there's no excuses and it's just like, who are the 12 guys who are having the best season or the 12 best players or however you want to look at. Streamlines the process. But I think it creates different areas where now it's challenging now all of a sudden, like, I'm really fretting over some starter versus reserve for that, like, final spot. I think some of those deliberations, honestly, were as hard as anything else.

[C]

No, in terms of the position list thing, I. Whenever I hear people like fret over this and debate and go back and forth, it's like, I just think that as the facilitator, initiator, handler, all these other words that we have kind of come up with to replace the fact that we just don't have pure point guards in the NBA anymore. They're at other levels, but they're not in the NBA because skill has just migrated over the other positions and size subsets to that. I. I think it's justified to go away from it. We end up with some conversations about players who are accessories to winning in a way where we enter these interesting conversations about impact. And I think we'll get into some of these guys who are. Who have different roles away from initiators and how do we properly value them against, you know, initiators, handlers on teams that aren't as good. I just think that it kind of. But I like the starter thing too, I guess. I don't know. The starter thing is also. We're doing it purely on merit. And there's also all the other kind of factors that enter into it about, like, popularity. You know, it's just criteria can differ from different from person to person.

[A]

Right. So the way that they actually do this is it's still, what, like a Percentage of fan votes, a percentage of media votes, percentage of player votes for the starters.

[B]

I believe so. And then the reserves are still selected by the coaches.

[A]

Okay. And the added wrinkle on top of this is after all of these players are selected, rosters are finalized, injury replacements are chosen, then they are separated into three teams, one of which is all international players. I caught Donovan Mitchell on some sort of. I think it was like the NBA Instagram or something, doing a whole bit about how his grandmother came over from Panama and thus he is. Sees himself as Panamanian. And I was like, oh, shit, we're gonna. We're in for some real fudge. Like, who's in this international mix?

[B]

I mean, there is a lot of self identification happening and there's so many players too. It's like, grew up internationally but came to play college basketball in America or vice versa. And how you classify those guys, Honestly, anybody's best guess, Carl Anthony Towns. How would he be designated per these rules? I have no earthly idea, but I guess Adam Silver is going to be tasked with figuring that out.

[C]

Cat kind of fired his bullet trying to play, playing for the Dominican thing. And it was like. And then there was the whole caliper thing to it too. And it's. Now he's wanting to go back. It's. That wasn't. That's an interesting case. Do you guys.

[A]

We're all.

[C]

We're all of the age that you might remember this, but do you all remember, like, in the late 90s when McDonald's had the all star ballots, like, the printed ballots? Of course, at the stores. Do you all remember this?

[B]

Oh, yeah. And at the real hanging Chad situation, a lot of, you know, a lot of room to really work the ballots if you want to.

[C]

I remember I was in such a desert of enthusiasm for the NBA because I'm from college basketball country. And people were just like, oh, God, you still hear some of that stuff. But I remember I grabbed a gigantic. I was so excited about it. I grabbed a gigantic stack of them and took them to school, to my friends, to even my team, my coaches. And I remember one of my friends distinctly saying, nobody gives a about that dude. It was like, I just kind like.

[B]

No, Jamal Mashburn deserves to be there.

[A]

It's just such a. I was gonna.

[C]

Say, still got it, you know.

[A]

Do you remember the era? Like, yeah, who are we talking about in terms of players? Like, who are you excited to put on this night?

[C]

I think it was 1997.

[B]

Ish.

[C]

I think it was like the Cleveland wasn't that in Cleveland. Anyway, it was, it was. It's a core memory, like a traumatic. Like, oh, like I'm a little more into this than the normal kid my age. I don't know. But anyway, that's why you're here now.

[B]

That's why we're here now. Maybe suss all this shit out together, punching our digital hanging chads.

[C]

It all paid off. It all paid off.

[A]

So any other stipulations we need to account for? I feel like there's always like two to four different roles that they just kind of just assume and then they deal with it later.

[B]

I don't think there's any other official stipulations other than Justin. With the, the format you describes, American versus international players, there will be some adjustment of additional players if they don't meet the eight and wait, wait, is it eight and 16? How, how many do we need?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, so it's 12 and 12 on east and west and then it's divvied up from there. I've already heard from people rolling their eyes basically suggesting that Adam Silver is going to take whoever gets voted in and basically fudge them into certain categories based off of things like Donovan Mitchell saying that he's Panamanian even though he was born in the United States. So get strapped in for that, basically. I think I have bullshit.

[C]

I think I have seven international players, judging by our. I mean, do you all. Do you all know just off the top of your head?

[B]

I have nine on mine.

[A]

I do not know and I don't care because unless I'm forgetting, format is bullshit.

[B]

Justin's a one world kind of guy, you know, no borders, doesn't recognize any of it. Just like bring people together.

[A]

That's all. That's what I'm all about, you know?

[D]

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[A]

[e-mail] all right, why don't we get to this the eastern conference. Let's do this one first. So for starters, I've already looked at these guys ballots and I know for a fact that all four of us agree that Kade Cunningham, Jalen Brown, Tyrese Maxey, and Giannis and Tetokounmpo are starters.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Anything easy work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

About these guys, I love to agree.

[B]

With the two of you.

[A]

Okay, can I just flag one little note here about Tyrese Maxey? He's currently averaging 39.3 minutes a game in the NBA. I was startled cause I knew it was a lot. I knew that he was probably leading the league in minutes. When I saw 39, I was like, I can't remember the last time I saw that. And to that point I looked it up. That hasn't happened since 2011. 12. So the lockout season, Whoa. All the way back then. And even then, you could fudge and be like, well, that was like 50 games these guys were playing. Right. Like, some things fluctuate based on the small sample. Kevin Love and L. Dang. 2010 11, there are four players. You guys want to guess? It's pretty hard.

[B]

I mean, are any of them also Tibbs players?

[A]

One was. Dang.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I don't even know who to reach for. Who else do we have?

[A]

Lamarcus Aldridge, Monte Ellis.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And Rudy Gay, Bucks Ellis.

[C]

And then no, wait. That would have been Warriors Ellis, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

No, wait, that's still Warriors.

[C]

That would have been Warriors Ellis.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

So.

[C]

Okay. Wow.

[A]

Well, first of all, not there.

[B]

Nick Nurse, ladies and gentlemen. This is kind of what happens around there. Also though, I have to say Tyrese Maxi, for everything we say about his game, he is an explosive athlete. Like the antenn speed is remarkable. The ease with which he creates I think also leads into this where you can just Kind of play him more because nothing really seems arduous. Also just impeccably conditioned. Like that is a guy who can run all day, not just because it's easy, but because he's kind of built and trained for it.

[A]

Yep. So I thought that we might have a little bit of a three way dance going on here for this last spot, including Maxi, because I think you could maybe add him into the mix of one of these last positions here. I had for my fifth starter, Jalen Brunson. Rob, you had Donovan Mitchell. Okay. And Kyle, you have.

[C]

Honestly, this is probably a mistake, but I. I don't hate it. Jaylen Johnson is who I had on there. He's been awesome. I like him, but. Yeah, that's too high for him, but it's okay.

[B]

So no Donovan Mitchell or Jalen Brunson for Kyle, but Jalen Johnson.

[C]

Yes, I can. Let's just swap it, because that was just a. That was a clerical error on my part. I have. I'm. I'll put Donovan Mitchell instead, so. And we can talk Brunson versus Mitchell. I'm ready to do that.

[B]

As we should.

[A]

Or if you want to talk Johnson, we could do that as well. But, Rob, you want to make the case for Mitchell to start us off here?

[B]

This was the single toughest decision for me, and I just went back and forth with these two guys. Two of the greatest individual guard creators in the league. There's so much to recommend about the way they control pace, about the shots they're able to get to, especially at their size. Just like truly remarkable players. For me, it came down to a couple of things. If we're going to split the hair between Jalen Brunson and Donovan Mitchell. Jalen Brunson has, I would say, a lot more offensive help than Donovan Mitchell does, especially with the health on the Cavs this season. And yet, in spite of that, Donovan Mitchell has been the more efficient creator and more efficient scorer. And the Cavs have been better with Donovan Mitchell on the floor than the Knicks have been with Jalen Brunson on the floor. And like those two pieces of information, I feel like start to paint a pretty convincing picture as far as a tiebreaker goes between two guys who. I wouldn't. I would be thrilled with either of them being a starter. They both absolutely deserve it. But to me, Mitchell might just edge it out by the tiniest of margins.

[A]

Yeah. So I was swayed by those sorts of facts, too. Even in offensive EPM on dunks and three. Here, they're both plus five and Both kind of on the same level. Unfortunately. Jalen Brunson -2.2. He's the fifth worst defender in the entire NBA according to that metric. I think it checks out based on the eye test. The only thing that really swayed me was more recency bias. I don't know if you've caught the Knicks over the past three games in which they played without Jalen Brunson.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Carl Anthony Towns basically is playing like he's starting a sentence and doesn't know where it's going to end up. And so it's hard to really shake that from my mind. And overall about the Knicks, that without Brunson they just seem a little lost at sea. And so that's why I lean Brunson over me.

[C]

Mitchell, there's a lot of hand wringing too that goes on with, with the Cavs and the Knicks. I feel like that is we've. We over the course of the year have just talked about how what a bummer that the. It's been that the Cavs haven't lived up to what we wanted from them in the off season. But it's like we don't always hold the Knicks to the same. And, and they're only a game apart. So. And, and if I'm looking at these two players, I'm like, what Rob, what you said about like the on off stuff, I think is. Is true. And then just I think the pliability, malleability, whatever word you want to use them as players. I think Mitchell is a better movement shooter. I think he's a more creative passer. I think that he is just a more dynamic offensive player than Brunson in general. And I just kind of prefer him. But I think that also in their. My preference aside, I think that their production plays that out too. I had an interesting thing that I was thinking about with this because there's this comparison their play styles. I think will will sort of tee up another archetype. Archetype thing that's going to happen with a Western Conference conversation. I think about starters and an argument. But if you had these two players switch places, what do you think would happen to these two teams? I thought that this was pretty interesting. Would the Knicks be better if you just flat out swapped Donovan Mitchell for Jalen Brunson and vice versa?

[B]

Yeah, I think it's a fascinating thought experiment in part because Brunson both defines the best version of the Knicks and their greatest liability, which is the fact that they play him and cat 2 complete negatives on defense as far as their positions go at the same time, and they rely on them so heavily. Donovan is not a great defender by any metric, by any app. Like, there's no way to really spell it out that way, but he is a little stockier. He gives a little more resistance than Brunson does. And so I wonder if. If their offense is a wash, and I'm not for the record, I'm not entirely convinced that it is. Would Mitchell being slightly better on defense actually change something about how the Knicks are able to sort of batten down the hatches and withstand some of the onslaughts that people throw at Brunson and Cat in particular?

[A]

I feel like Brunson's ability to do everything affords you the opportunity to be more defensive focused at the other positions and perhaps do so over, like, lean so much in that direction that you could lean back into more of an offensive first player. And Cat, whereas, like, it almost becomes an impediment with the Cavs personnel because you have a lot of guys who could do so much. Last year, they were good in part because the ball pinged and everybody was involved there. But I don't know, like, when we start to get into the defensive side of things, it does start sort of like, miss the point because these guys are both pretty offensive dominant. And I just feel like Brunson, I've seen him excel more in big moments and with Mitchell, like, he's had a lot of big games, but, like, he's had the opportunity both in last year's playoffs and even this season to be the guy and take the reins and do more in order to push them over the edge. And he really hasn't got that far. I know we're. We're like, it is a game and a half between the two teams, but.

[B]

That'S better at this point.

[A]

And that really does weigh on you at a certain point when you're really just like, getting down to the fine print.

[B]

See, I. I almost come at it the other way, where if the Knicks had been so. So much, so clearly better than the Cavs as they have been for most of the season, right? They. They've been swooning of late. They've really been in just like, such a. Such a messy stretch, both even before Brunson exited the lineup and. And then obviously without him, as you talked about, Justin, that I just don't find that difference to be all that meaningful. And for everything we've said and all. All of the kind of concern trolling we've done about the state of The Cavs here. The Knicks are too kind of in the mud with them wrestling around, trying to find their season in the flow.

[C]

That's my point. Yeah. I just. I think we've talked so much about the Cavs being a bummer. It's like, do we hold. I don't know that it's necessarily that, like, both teams are bad. I just think that those two teams are closer together. Like, I don't know that the bummer energy for the Knicks has been as strong as it maybe should be at times. Like, because over the last week, I.

[B]

Would say it has. It's really amped up lately.

[A]

We just.

[C]

We wanted the Cavs to evolve, and it's like we're just. It's two different types of bum here. It's like we're waiting. We wanted the Cavs to evolve, and we just kind of want the Knicks to get their shit together. And I think maybe that's causing us to be just a little more disappointed in the cast. But you're right. Yeah. This week it has had a little bit of an uptick.

[A]

Yeah. We need to do a full Knicks diagnosis at some point, perhaps this week, because that deserves a much broader conversation there.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

I could go either way there. I. I went Brunson just because of results and whatnot, but I could definitely see the case for Mitchell. So Johnson was definitely a lock for me. And I assume you, too, Rob.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But, Kyle, just walk us through maybe the impulse, at the very least, to put him in the mix with the starters. I know you said you take it. Took it back.

[C]

Johnson.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

No, this is. This is, like, becoming a thing for me on our. Any game that we do, because you remember when we did the. The white guy draft, I, like, screwed up the Demontis thing. It's just. I'm a scatterbrained person. I think people probably already know that about me. So, anyway, I think that's all it was. I was just kind of going through, and my. Let's just be honest, my enthusiasm for Jalen Johnson is just strong, and I will not apologize for that. I. I will defiantly plant my flag on that. But, yeah, I would. I would swap that. That was just a. That was just a clerical mistake.

[B]

But the enthusiasm is deserved. Like, to me, this is why he is just an absolute staple in Penn Lock for this team. What? He's been holding the Hawks together through all of their. Their injuries, the whole Trae Young situation, all the ups and downs of their season. He is sort of the immutable piece that has always worked. That has always made sense for every version of their team we've seen so far. And so I think whichever guard you don't pick between Brunson, Mitchell, if you want to include Maxi in that group, that person is a lock. Jalen Johnson should be a lock. Scotty Barnes, I think, should also be a lock for this team. I just don't really see any argument against one of the most disruptive defenders in the world having a secure place as an All Star this season.

[A]

Yeah, just going back to the Jalen Johnson part of this, though. It. The post Trey era has been a little weird. Like, the past five games are 2 and 3. Johnson has struggled the past three games, and so I don't really know what to make of this. Maybe it's just small sample. Maybe he's just sleepy. I don't know. But, like, his past three have been muted offensively. He's only scored 13, 12 and 12, and I thought they might just like, take off, if only because they had something more productive in the Trey Young spot. I thought CJ Would have just fit the overall sort of approach there. But, like, there's been a lot of already, like, knife sharpening about, like, why is C.J. rooting Jalen Johnson's life? And I have to wonder, like, is this team going to start to fade for no other reason than perhaps like, just like, vibes. Like maybe the vibes. They've signaled that, like, without Trey, we're thinking to the future. I don't know what to make of it.

[C]

It.

[B]

I'm not so convinced they're going to fade, but they might just sort of languish around here. Right. Like on the. On the brink. Slash the bottom part of the play in bracket. That just might be who they are right now. And until some of their younger players can take meaningful steps forward. It's not really a Jalen Johnson question. It's like a Zachary Rizachet question. Right. Like, these are the swing pieces that are going to define the future of the Hawks, or they're going to go for some huge kind of deal and land someone like Giannis and completely change the shape of their team. But for what it is right now, like, this is kind of who they are.

[C]

Yeah. There's a next move. I feel like there's an implied next move. Whether or not that's an Anthony Davis type. Yeah, they've definitely. They. They need to find another core piece to sort of, you know, we're. We're in that pivot thing and we're figuring out which direction we're going to go. Because as good as Jalen's been, like you were saying, there's just a lot of kind of wishy washy pieces that aren't that might be packaged and traded for whatever that next thing is.

[A]

And we'll see real LeBron early Lakers era where everyone was just looking around, just waiting to be traded.

[C]

The humor of that being like so many of those dudes went other places and we're good. That was. That's one of the strangest teams of all time. We should do a revisit of that sometime.

[A]

All right, so in addition to Johnson, we all had on the bench, Scotty Barnes, as Rob alluded to, Jalen Duran. Michael Porter Jr. Let's go. Michael Porter Jr.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

He was an easy one for me. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I mean he hit a. He had a game winning drive the other day. Could you even fathom Nuggets Michael Porter Jr. Having a game winning drive? It's the, the all around scoring, the all around offense. I don't even want to limit it to scoring. He's been a much improved passer this year within his role. Like he's just doing so much and is so clearly the best thing that the Nets have going. I thought he was like a pretty easy inclusion, as you said, Justin, like he just kind of makes sense as an all star level producer and someone who's having an all star level impact.

[A]

Just one of the top shot makers in the league. And I think I did this list initially more of like a stream of consciousness gut check where it's just like, oh, these are the guys that I know have been important this season and MPJ was one of those guys, which is wild to say, but they have one. As we're recording this Sunday afternoon. It's about 3 o', clock, only 12 games. At what point, especially in the east, where there's a lot of competition for some of these last spots, did you guys start to factor in just like being a dog team like the Brooklyn Nets?

[B]

I don't care that much. Kyle, do you care about like, does team record weigh on this for you?

[C]

It's interesting because I think if you look at him and some of the guys who are fringers, like the, the Josh Giddies, the Siakams, the LaMelo balls, the guys who are sort of in that purgatory, I mean, it does sort of like imply a little bit of a conversation. Right. And there's a funny thing with MPJ where the NBA is just such an economy of opportunity. Right. Where you know, mpj, you said he's. You said he's one of the best shot makers. And it's like, would we have said that in the past? Because there is sort of a astronaut gun thing where you're like, he all. When you said that, I was like, he always was. But we're just giving him this great treatment just because he has this opportunity now and he's an all star now. It's just kind of funny how all of that works. But I mean, wait, hold on.

[A]

What's going on with the astronaut gun?

[C]

Like the. The astronaut meme with the gun where.

[B]

They'Re on the meme format?

[C]

Yeah, always was. Yeah.

[B]

Memes famously great to talk about on podcast. You know, just to walk everyone through.

[C]

I held the. I held the fake gun up so you guys can social breakout.

[B]

Will.

[C]

Will get this.

[A]

It's so funny you mentioned that though, because all of my reference now references now are like movies that people may or may not have seen or memes, which they definitely have seen. And so I feel like if you want to compare something to anything, the meme is actually the first impulse and you have to fight that to get to the point one that's a little bit more sophisticated so you don't seem like a dork.

[B]

So the meme is the people's reference is what you're saying.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. And I am a man.

[C]

Do you guys remember the famous basketball scene in this movie? Do you guys remember flubber? Do you remember that?

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Do we remember the beats? Hands were made of flubber.

[C]

That's. That's funny. You're that little like robot that flew around in his house that just like talked in memes. That was like a pretty big foreshadowing event. Right.

[B]

And honestly, I hadn't put it together, but you're absolutely right.

[C]

Like just pop to mind. That's just. That's a look inside this brain. Justin, are you wearing a SID shirt from. Or is that another reference? Is that from Toy Story? What do you got going on there? Or am I lame? And I'm like, this is a zero.

[A]

Skateboards T shirt Skater Justin barrier. That's right. Let's. Let's roll, baby.

[B]

Wow. What's that say about that? Sounds like a broken wrist waiting to happen.

[A]

No, I never really had a full on skateboarding phase, but I definitely had like a poser phase in the same realm that I think maybe everyone did when Tony Hawk pro skater came out. Everyone thought they were into skateboarding. But like you did.

[B]

I mean, I Had I had a.

[A]

Board, I may have popped an ollie and a shove it once or twice. But beyond that I was, I was just going for the vibes, man.

[B]

I mean here you are doing everything you can, you know, just being a superman, lifting up.

[C]

I don't.

[B]

I never allow it.

[A]

No, please, no.

[C]

I never could have done that because I was showing up to school in like, you know, a lot of basketball shorts and a lot of like and one gear. You know, if I had made that there would have been the big like. Let's all have a conversation about Kyle. If I had pulled a stunt like that. So that was not on the table for me. It was just not going to happen.

[B]

See, I think there's a way to merge those worlds. I think you could have been the one person, Kyle to bring it all together. But you thought you were above it. You know, you didn't see your calling right in front of you.

[C]

We're kidding around but there's a really cool thing where like basketball and like skateboard culture and hip hop, it's kind of mashed it all together in a way where like vans sort of, I don't know, it's. That's another. That's a deeper cultural pod that we'll probably never do. But maybe we can, we can talk about it.

[A]

One can want this trio for is just talking.

[B]

Oh yes.

[A]

Cultural significance.

[C]

Hip hop and skateboarding. People are just banging my door down.

[A]

Right. One thing I will mention is Jalen Duran is on this list. One because the Detroit Pistons have 10 losses which is only two more than the Oklahoma City Thunder after last night's loss which is pretty significant. And also they didn't come to an extension before this season during and the Pistons, this dude's about to get fucking paid this off season.

[B]

Deservingly so keeps expanding his game has become just so like such a more interesting offensive player than I would have ever anticipated, you know, a year or two ago. What he's been able to do as far as the playmaking, the ball handling and transition, what he can be in a half court offense. This isn't just like a guy who's finishing lobs, although he's finishing a lot of lobs. A backbone of a real deal defense. Someone who's actually versatile within the way the Pistons play on offense. Has just put himself squarely into the category of like not really ever the problem, you know, even in the games the Pistons lose, it's not really a Jalen Duran issue. Maybe it's a lack of shooting from the other spots. Maybe it's certain guys, like, you know, not being able to make the most of their opportunities, but he has just become such, like, a rock steady contributor for, as you mentioned, Justin, one of the best teams in basketball right now.

[C]

It's funny you use the word rock because I saw that slam, tweeted out that picture of their cover where they. It was the silhouette. And I think it says something about Jalen Duran's physique that when I saw the silhouette, I was like, that's Jalen Duran.

[A]

I just.

[C]

I don't know if that tweeted out, like, my physique on there. They'd be like, is that Grimace? I don't know who that is.

[B]

Or.

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

Did you guys just. I don't know, did you guys just draw, like, the Reese's? Like, you know how the. The shape of like a Reese's Christmas tree is like, just a. That's a rough shape of a thing.

[B]

Like, please don't sell yourself short, Kyle. You are at least the Hamburglar. You know, I wouldn't say you're full Grimace.

[C]

Yeah, Speaking of Reese's, man. You guys. You guys big on the seasonal Reese's? I'm all over the place today.

[A]

I'm sorry, Seasonal Reese's, first of all.

[B]

Yeah, everyone is big on the seasonal Rees. Reese's, like the. The Easter egg Reese's. The heart Reese's. The Christmas tree Reese's. These are obviously.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm gonna let you in on a little bit of a candy hack here. We live next to a Walgreens, and I go all the time and I get candy. That's what it's for. That's what Walgreens is for. It's for candy or medicine. So you go there. The key time to get the seasonal Reese's is when it's, like, criminally early. Like right now, we're like a month away from balance. You gotta get it now. When it's Valentine's Day, don't fucking get them because they'll be chewy. They snap when they're. When they're fresh right now. That's the key. You got to get it. When they snap.

[B]

It's like, why are you talking about Reese's? Like, you're going to a farmer's market. My God, they do not snap. They're.

[A]

Yes, they do.

[B]

The fresh.

[C]

The fresher they are. They snap. They don't. Like, you can't have, like a soft break. It's got to be like a snap. Like.

[A]

Like, this is the Paul Hollywood I need my biscuits to have a snap sort of thing. And I'm always like, why do. Why do I need it to snap? I don't like it snappy. I actually like it chewy.

[B]

You like a chewy biscuit?

[A]

Yeah, I like a chewy everything.

[C]

Like cheddar scone, maybe. I don't. Yeah, I'm just saying, it's. It's gotta. You don't want a chewy Reese's. You want enough of them to be, like.

[A]

To break off in, like, 1. 1.

[C]

Am I talking about cookies or am I talking about Reese's, Justin?

[B]

Well, here's the thing, Justin.

[A]

Don't change everything all at once, because we're having four conversations.

[B]

Justin is talking about technique, Right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

A bake on a baking show. We're aiming for precision. What Kyle is describing is a figment of his imagination that simply does not live in real life.

[C]

That. You are just so wrong. You're so. I'm. I actually feel bad for you, Rob, for a lot of reasons, but that you haven't had one that's fresh. And I get this from my father, who actually has memorized the numbers on the bottom of Reese's packaging. So maybe I was influenced by him. Just go, Please tweet at me and tell me I'm not crazy, people. Let's continue with the All Star.

[B]

Living proof that trauma is inherited right here on the group chat podcast.

[C]

My bad.

[A]

That's right. So the last two spots in the Eastern Conference, I'll be honest. You could sell me on anybody here.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I. I ended up with Towns in Norm Powell. Rob, who did you have?

[B]

I also had Towns, and I had Franz Bogner for my last spot.

[A]

That's a curveball.

[B]

I mean, yes and no. It's not like, again, the mat. It's a similar conversation in terms of. Oh, the teams are sort of in a similar place in the standing with the Magic and the Heat. Also. I think with the Heat, there's a little bit more diffusion of dupe. Go with Bam or do you go with Norm? Two guys who are carrying very different sorts of workloads for that team. I think Franz has been pretty clearly the best player for the Magic all season and is sort of, like, unimpeachable in what he's been doing. Another guy who is, like, so distinctly not the problem for the Magic when things go wrong, that I feel totally fine rewarding him. But I agree with you. Like, this last group, it's not the most inspiring collection of players.

[C]

Kyle, who'd you have for my 12th spot. Yeah, I. I went with for. For 11. No, I had durin for my 11th spot. And then.

[B]

Well, who did you have for your tenth spot?

[C]

Scotty.

[B]

Okay, so who are we missing?

[A]

Oh, you have. You have Norm and one other guy.

[C]

Okay, I had Norm. I mean, it's not like at this point, it's just kind of like a mush of guys, but my 12th was Siakam. Siakam's numbers are better this year, and he was an All Star last year. And if we're talking about bad teams, I'm just like, yeah, it's not his fault that. I don't know, Rob, if you're big on the it's not their fault logic, you keep bringing that up. Yeah, it's not. Pascal's been good. He's. His numbers are better and it's like MPJ is on a bad team. I just. I'm kind of like, how hard do we ding Pascal for Halliburton being out?

[B]

I think you've found my limit, which is the Pacers have been so bad, and Pascal Siakam is great. I'm never going to, like, push too hard about Pascal Siakam being an All Star because he does so clearly deserve it. It's not his fault. He also, I would not say, has, like, pulled the Indiana Pacers up by their bootstraps with the way he's played. Clearly their best player. Again, I'm really not arguing it too much, but I think you have to have a particularly strong case if your team is as bad as Indiana is, and his case is just very good and not overwhelmingly so.

[C]

Very good is good enough for me.

[A]

But, yeah, worst team in the league is kind of where I. I really had the line there. Yeah. I'm surprised more by Franz here, Rob, because as I'm looking this up, I didn't consider him because he had only 25 games played. Yeah. Now his minutes are pretty similar to giannis. He's in the 800 range.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And so for that reason, I guess he should be included in that. But 25 games, man, that's. That's tough.

[B]

I gotta say. I just don't mind so much. I think part of this is with the 65 game criteria for all the big boy end of season awards for All Star, I am softer than ever about actually caring about how much people have played. Like, there's a certain kind of feel over, have you played enough to qualify? And if. If Franz doesn't meet that. That threshold for you, I get it. For me, if you're playing like a star. I don't really care if you played 24 games instead of 30. You know, like, that ultimately doesn't really bother me so much.

[C]

There, there. There are a couple here that I thought we should at least address. I mean, like, Giddy fell off the face of the earth because I think he was on track to be an All Star earlier in the year. Right. And then the Lamelo thing I think is interesting. I mean, if you're just. We get down in this range where it was like there were arguments and I just thought. I don't know if y' all wanted to quickly just strike those down just to address them.

[A]

Yeah, I've got a. I got a long list to discuss. Just quickly, though, Cat. I kind of did it by default because he's been, by his standards, pretty bad. Did everyone else kind of, like, just basically bite down when they wrote down his name?

[B]

I think especially with the past few weeks that he's had where the. The kind of, like, wild decision making that is always part of the town's experiences there, but also just like some really damning effort in terms of his actual investment in these games. Games that, as we talked about when kind of went through Jalen Brunson, like, he's critical to their ability to survive them, and yet he's hanging out in the backcourt, like, not getting back into plays. That's really tough stuff to see from an All Star. And yet, like, he is just productive enough. He is just effective enough. He is certainly maddening and I would say by far the most maddening All Star that we're going to select today. But I don't. I don't see anyone in the honorable mentions that we're about to go through that has such a strong case that they would nudge him out, given how important he is and can be and what he ultimately does deliver, even if he gives you a lot of extracurricular with it.

[A]

Yeah, it's tough because he has all the typical stuff that, like, makes you want to pull your hair out, but he didn't. Doesn't have, like, the counterbalance of, like, shot making like he had last year in order for it to just, like, kind of push it down a little bit. But I put him there. He fits the bill of everything you'd want from an All Star. Two Knicks are, especially in comparison to some of these other teams that we're talking about in this range, significantly better than, for instance, the Heat. I went Powell over. Bam. In part because it feels like the offense is so over reliant on Powell skills and if anything, the way that they've jerry rigged their offense this year with the no picks and all this other stuff seems to be shining spotlight for Norm. And also on top of this, you could get into the defensive stuff, but Bam's offensive season has been pretty poor. His effective field goal is actually the worst of his career at this point, even though he is shooting threes. So that plus Norm just having a kind of awesome story and season I went Norm over over some of these other guys.

[B]

Yeah. I think I always have a natural inclination with teams like the Heat to lean. Okay, what is their more important side of the ball and who is contributing the most to it. And they're a defense first team. Bam is by far their best defensive player. He is the guy who's holding all of that down. It is moving like that argument in and of itself. And despite what he's not giving you on offense this season, he's one of the best defenders in the world. Like that alone should get him into this conversation. But I'm with you about Norm, where even though the Heater a defense first team, Norm's ability to score in one on one situations is really what makes the Heat viable at all. It's the only reason their offense like works in this current form is because of him and his ability to make the most out of those situations. And so because they would sort of fall apart if he was not exactly this good. I'm with you that if we're going to give it to a member of the Heat, Norm makes sense as that guy.

[C]

Yeah. There's the sides of the coin thing going on where you're right on offense, it's like Norm's ability to advantage create in that system that is like rotate, kick, rotate kick. Like that is the catalyst for what they do. But then on defense we just have this perpetual thing with, with Bam where he is just always sort of underappreciate him. Then we want to like really value him and lift him up. But then he kind of gets compressed by some of that stuff. Like he's never quite become a primary in the way that we hoped. And the offense hasn't really leaped the way that we hoped because whenever I think about Bam, always think about that scene in Mad Men where they were talking about. I think it's whenever they're going to like Sterling Cooper, Draper Price, when they were talking about Lane and they were like, Lane should come, what he was like, can you do what he does? And they're like, it's because they can't really fully appreciate or understand what he does. And I feel like that happens a lot with. With Bam, like. So I would lean towards Norm in this situation too, even though I don't know. It's interesting because there's a scoring gap between them. But Norm takes more threes than he does. Bam takes more twos. Still, I'd give the edge to Bam.

[B]

To Norm.

[C]

Sorry.

[A]

Yeah, Norm's a real bookkeeper for the Heat team is what you're saying.

[C]

That's interesting. No, Bam's the bookkeeper, I think.

[A]

Yeah. Do you want to audit this metaphor?

[B]

Yeah, the metaphor just falls completely apart.

[A]

Okay, my bad.

[C]

No, wait, I'm saying Bam is lain. I'm saying because they don't understand.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

Oh, so in this case, we fall apart. So you are the bookkeeper, and then now we don't understand what it is that you're trying to articulate to us.

[A]

Anyway, my short list includes Bam out of bio. Josh Giddy. Fuck yeah. If he was healthy, I actually think he would had a good case. Can we.

[B]

Can we pause right there? Justin, how does it feel for you to not put Josh Giddy on your all star team?

[A]

Feels bad. Feels real bad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

15 and 15 with him on the court. The Chicago Bulls.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

500. That's going to get you somewhere in the east four and seven without. He hasn't played in a couple of weeks now. I just down off. Doesn't pop really in the way that you would hope for too, if you're going to make a case for a guy being. Excelling above a bad team. But 19, nine and nine practically. They're not just giving that away, fellas.

[B]

Absolutely right. Yeah, he is. He is fully deserving of being on an honorable mentions list. This is. This is where it makes sense to have him.

[A]

Okay. I also consider Siakam, as Kyle mentioned, as we consider Desmond Bain. I also considered Con. Canipple.

[B]

Hell yeah, you did.

[A]

Anybody else I'm missing here?

[B]

Evan Mobley.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Gotta at least look at him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I will say Joel Embiid, kind of forcing his way back into these conversations too.

[C]

He's. He's up there in the. In the. In the production. If you look in the lists of guys producing to a certain level. I mean, Embiid. I know that sounds very vague, but Embiid is. Embiid's numbers look a little more increasingly embedy lately.

[A]

Yeah. How hard did you guys look at Khan, though? I don't mean to just be a Ringer homer. Because we're very much team Con at this point.

[B]

Sure. But we come by it honestly like that is an organic enthusiasm.

[A]

That's right. I just. The efficiencies there. They've only won 15 games, but a lot of these teams, as we mentioned, aren't doing well. I guess he's just not the focal point of that team in the way you would like a guy from a bad team. But yeah, 1954, pretty damn good.

[B]

I really don't have a strong argument against other than he's a little outclassed by some of these other guys who make it. It's less like that there's something wrong with Khan and more that being an All Star requires you meeting a certain pretty lofty standard. And Khan is almost there already, if not there already. So really feels like a matter of time for him, I think, especially because of all of the things he brings to the table offensively, like how comfortable he's felt with the ball this season. That projects him to be like a real star for a long time. So welcome to the 2027 All Star Team Con Caniple.

[C]

I mean, the only guys that he, the guys, the guys that he does sort of like group well with offensively or, or even past them. I mean the, the Barnes, the Duran types on the. They just play the other side of the ball so much better. I mean there's a, there's a trade off there. But Con, is. Is Khan just going to end up being Devin Booker? I was thinking about this this morning. I was just like criticize he could shoot that well. Yeah, Booker is shooting. We'll get to that. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well, it's always been kind of up and down. Like Booker's always been one of those guys who even when his shot looks beautiful and looks textbook and by the percentages you're always like waiting like where is this sort of like 40, 42 three point shooting season? And that's not really who Devin Booker is for a variety of reasons. And so if Khan is doing that and looking like Devin Booker in terms of the role he plays within an offense for a long time, like, that'd be an unbelievable get for the Hornets to land that kind of player.

[A]

Yeah. All right, why don't we take a break. When we come back, we'll talk about the West.

[D]

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[A]

This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car shouldn't feel like a second job. It should feel easy. With Carvana it is. Just visit Carvana.com and to your license plate or vinyl, answer a few quick questions and get an offer in minutes. Like what you see, we'll pick it up right from your door and hand you your check. No haggling, no hassle, no problem. Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. All right, let's talk about the west now. First four I think are pretty straightforward. We got sga, we got Nicole Jokic, we got Luka Doncic, we got Victor Webanyama. Yeah, fifth spot. This one was tough and I think you guys probably picked between two guys. If I were to just guess. I also was thinking about a third guy really hard here. So I have Anthony Edwards. I thought very hard about Steph Curry, but as I was going through the process, Jamal Murray, especially lately, he's got a big old case.

[B]

I'm so proud of you. I love this for us.

[A]

I've come a long way.

[B]

You really have. I.

[C]

Were you a Murray denier? What?

[B]

What's the. No. Well, Justin's historically been a bit of a nugget skeptic overall, I would say.

[A]

That's right. Skeptic is the exact word where Hershey's nuggets.

[C]

Jesus Christ.

[A]

No more chocolate talk. So I talk about splitting hairs just between Edwards and Steph. It's. It's really eye of the beholder at this point, especially doing this pod on Sunday right after Anthony Edwards went off for 55 in a loss we should mention to the San Antonio Spurs. I would say the off court stuff. The numbers for Edwards doesn't reflect well upon him and it does on Randall, which got me thinking a little harder about this. But the clutch numbers for Edwards. Have you seen these lately? They're nuts. I was cruising through wolves Reddit, which was just a real brand of psychopath. I have to mention you guys are doing good work out there, though, because they had this stat which is that in the clutch, he's shooting 85. Effective field goal percentage. Yeah, right. A Steph Curry Open 3. Wide Open 3. Has the effective field goal of 75. Giannis at the rim, effective field goal 77.6. Edwards, albeit on a very small sample size in the clutch, has a better shot expectancy than any of those, you.

[B]

Know, but not that small a sample size like the Wolves are in a fair number of these games. And he's third overall in clutch score, like clutch scoring per game. So it's not like he's, you know, a third or fourth option who's putting up these kinds of numbers. It's. It's like brain melting. What he is doing in crunch time, like the, the degree to which he has been better than every other star in the league is like orders of magnitude. So hard to argue against Anthony Edwards, save for the fact that Steph Curry is his competition. And like, I, I'm always a little Steph pilled in terms of the influence that he has on the game. And I would say especially what he is doing to clean up just a consistent mess in Golden State, I found to be pretty persuasive. Ant is the. The head of the snake on a great Western Conference team. He, like, is the singular reason why they've been able to get away without playing a point guard. But Steph is the only reason anyone with the warriors basically has a job right now. So, like that I, I do find to be. If, as tiebreakers go like that is the kind of thing that sort of puts you over the top, is the degree to which the warriors make everything difficult and Steph does his absolute best to make any of it look easy and somehow succeeds.

[C]

Yeah, this is, this is what I was alluding to with the Brunson Mitchell thing where it's like, you know, Brunson and Ant both have a little more ISO, a little more pound in the ball in their game, where it's like Mitchell and Curry to varying degrees, to be. To be clear, because nobody comes close to Steph in that sense in terms of the way that they're able to sort of be. Place them off the ball and do things like that. But I think. And there's also the. When you said influence on the game, did you mean like literally one ball game or do you mean like his. His overall influence? Because if we're doing that, that's. No, no, no, One game.

[B]

I mean, the influence he has on the shape of a game. Like, look, look what the Hornets had to do to just like wrestle with the idea of guarding Steph Curry, like throughout all this weird gimmicky stuff, following him into the bench and out of bounds, like, that is the kind of player he is where he sort of breaks everything that you think you know about basketball. And in order to attempt to guard him, you have to throw your system out. You have to throw away all of your principles and do something wildly different because that's Steph Curry. And he demands that.

[C]

Even now, purely, purely in production though, like you have to kind of adjust it because of their pace of play in their minutes. But like per 100, they're like very, very close in terms of, in their, in their output. And then box plus minus, they're like lockstep. They are together. And there's also the, the thing I, I hear people, you know, not to go straw man here, but I, I have heard this, that people doing the legacy thing of, you know, it's Steph, it's bub. You know, it's like you could go the other way with it with Ant's progression and I tweeted a video about this of his like just development and how much better that he' with the, the shooting has been integral to it. He's shooting the ball better than Steph. Granted, Steph is playing in tougher situations because the warriors make everything harder for Steph, but yes, Ant's progression, man, has just been so impressive with shooting the ball and his handle has improved so, so, so much. You know, I think he's, I think you, you be in your right mind to say that he deserves to, to get this last spot.

[A]

I would say that Ant's moments, his best moments this season have been much louder than Steph's, which is odd to say considering Steph's history. And to that point, Edwards has seven already, Seth only has four. But I think that's the trade off. Ants success is often very loud. Whereas Steph, to Rob's point about just all the effects he has on the rest of the offense, just his movement off the ball, creating opportunities for their guys. It goes a little bit more quieter these days, but those loud ass moments are fun as hell. And so I give Ant the, the, the lean here.

[B]

I'm completely cool with it. In fact, I, I mean I had a moment thinking about how certain are we that Luka Doncic deserves to be on this team over these two guys. Like maybe the argument is not Steph or Ant, but Steph and Ant, but not Luka. I ultimately ended up putting Doncic among my starters, but like he. There's. There's some funkiness around Luca and the Lakers and has been all season. His defense is such a huge problem for that team and again contributes to why they're in such a weird place. There's none of that with Ant and Steph. Like, like Steph isn't an amazing defender, but he holds it down enough. Ant isn't the most dedicated off ball guy in terms of like monitoring what it is he's supposed to be doing, but he's such a bulldog when the ball is right in front of him and it's such a terror in transition that he kind of makes up for some of that stuff. I just don't think that there's like a huge chasm between Luka and either of these two guys, which to me says it's kind of a similar race as it is out east where any two of these three as your starters feels right to me.

[A]

I was with you until I saw the Lakers live last night without Luka, Doncic and both of their centers. We should be fair, but holy, there's not a lot there. And LeBron, as much as he's had moments, it's just him trying to prop up like the Marcus smarts. And we got some Kobe Buffkin significant run there toward the end. Like it's pretty dark. And so for me that, like that tilted that Luca, despite the fact that he's probably doing too much and not enough defensively at the very least. They need that in order to be even competent these days.

[B]

They really do.

[C]

You're talking about the defense. My God, the other night that, that Hornets game against the Lakers, like Seon James, not really known for boogieing off the dribble. He just cooked Luca in a one on one where I was like, good lord. At least like have some pride about it. Like it was, it was really sad, man. I'm, I'm big Luca fan, always have been. But it was.

[B]

Yeah, well, it's a team wide problem. If you're under 25 years old and a reasonably talented NBA player, you will have 15 points against the Lakers. Like that's just what it's going to be this year season.

[A]

Yeah, Jamal Murray, the last guy here. I think the playmaking difference between him and these other two guys you mentioned is significant enough that I started to take note. Also the results without Jokic. So he's only played seven of I believe the 10 games that Jokic has been out. As we're recording this, they're five and two in those games. He's scoring 31, nine and a half assists and five rebounds. It's pretty sick.

[C]

And the percentages, 33.

[A]

42.

[C]

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I would say that the percentages are just. And he had like 45% from three right now or something crazy.

[A]

He's nuts.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. 40. He is 45 on the season right now. It's unbelievable.

[B]

I just think there's a totally different level of regular season focus from him. This has been kind of what we've been waiting for from Jamal Murray for years is can he be this guy for 82 games or at least however many of them he's available to play? And the focus he's bringing, or really just like the. The consistency of that focus, the endurance of that focus, from game to game within games within challenges, within matchups. He just has it all. Like, he has it all on an all star level. He has it all in a way that is carrying his team. As you mentioned, Justin, like, he's not just putting up numbers. He is taking the Nuggets through what has been like a pretty hellacious injury season for them. They've missed so many guys for so much time and he is the constant. And I don't think we ever would have been prepared to say that about a previous version of Jamal Murray. Like, he is. He's absolutely delivering right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, career high, pick and roll in isolation, isolation numbers for him, balls in his hands a ton. And also, this is another nice thing about this that is just good for you, is this is kind of. It's easy to forget that this is kind of an undertaker rising up out of the coffin kind of thing for him. Where people were talking about him after the Olympics, they were like, man, it's like Murray's just not the same dude anymore. And he's come back and been like, I absolutely am the same dude. And yeah, love to watch him play, man. He's been. He's been on one.

[B]

Let me tell you, Kyle, people may have been saying it, those people are dumb. Like, Jamal Murray is a balls out competitor. And in most. In pretty much every big game that matters. Yes, there are the occasional blips where he's injured or recovering or in a weird spot overall. Like, that is a guy I will bet on. That is a guy I feel comfortable like basing the future success of a team around. Like, there's a reason why the Nuggets have been so invested in him, despite all the weird kind of quirks of his regular season performance to this point.

[A]

Are they dumb, or did they just, like, respond intelligently to the information that was provided to them, which was, he was pretty bad in that Olympics, and then he was just, like, missing games because he was, like, staying out too late, watching UFC or whatever?

[B]

He wasn't. He wasn't good in the Olympics. I'm not going to pretend that he was good the. In the Olympics, but, like, you can respond to the bulk of the information that tells you who a guy is on a basketball court, or you can respond to the shiny thing that flickers in front of your face and says, oh, in this second, this is what's happening.

[A]

Or maybe. Or maybe shame just works, especially on. On celebrity basketball players.

[B]

Come on. This is. This is not shame taking over Jamal's.

[A]

Career about this, because in some small part because of. I think that happens all the time with players. Look at Harden, like, every three years, all of a sudden, like, jolts back into place because people have seen enough.

[B]

Do you think. You think James Harden has had dramatic.

[A]

Turns in his career, certainly about defense? Yes. Not recently, but in years past, what is happening.

[C]

Right.

[B]

He'll do it for 12 games, and then he becomes James Harden again. Like, over time, we all become who we are. And who Jamal Murray is is not the guy who he was in the Olympics. There's. There was no reason to believe that.

[A]

I think he's had some more craters in his career than you're willing to, like, give him a.

[B]

Disagree. Hard disagree.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I always call Harden the fainting goat. Like, if you had a fainting goat in a group of goats, you'd be like, yeah, he looks like a goat. But then you get to that critical moment, and he just falls over. And I'm not. I just don't think that Murray is the same type of thing. But this is an interesting. Rob's positive kind of optimism. And then your. That argument, I think, was a great encapsulation of your two personalities.

[A]

I would like to say I'm a realist and Rob. Rob's an optimist, but.

[B]

Okay. No.

[A]

What else are we gonna say? I think the big hit here is just to the whole stat about Nikola Jokic never playing with an All Star. I just. I just don't know what people are gonna do in order to pretend like, he's a sad child who hasn't eaten in four weeks.

[B]

Okay. He's still the best player in the world. I don't care how People frame it.

[A]

All right, so we all agreed on Murray as a bench player. In addition to Murray, we all had Denny Abdia because of course, Kevin Durant and Chet Holmgren. Surprised we all had Chet.

[B]

Yeah, this has been a bit of a, a transformation for me as I've been going through my process of figuring out the All Stars. I talked through it on with Zach on his podcast and originally for this spot I had Alper and Shangun and ultimately I ended up trading Sengun for Chet Holmgren. And I think some of it is just like.

[A]

Cause you were ashamed into it.

[B]

No, I was not shamed into it. I think some, some of it has been the way the Rockets have played of late. Some of it has been trying to really drill down and appreciate what Chad does defensively for the Thunder and how much of that you want to attribute to the wide array of incredible defenders they have. But bottom line is he's one of the best defensive players in the world and I want to reward that. I want to reward the consistency of that. I want to reward the fact that there's like, there's not really a blemish on it. And even if you look at him offensively and say, oh, Chet isn't carrying the workload of some of these other high end creators who are going to be All Stars, he occupies like a very specific role and he does it at an incredibly high level. And there are not many people who could just like plug and play what Chet Holmgren is doing. We like to pretend they are.

[C]

There are.

[B]

And then we, you know, every trade season we think about like, oh, who are the guys that this team that really needs a three point shooting, rim protecting, big can target? And the answer is basically no one. Like, there's a couple guys who fit that brief. Chad Holmgren is probably the best of them right now. And I think that for what he has been this season might be slightly more valuable than what Alper and Changun is doing for the Rockets right now.

[C]

Yeah, I kind of got into a do the Rockets deserve to Kind of a thing. I know that we, we do this like representative conversation because I was looking at them and it was making me think about the distance between the Rockets. I know the Suns have been a hot topic on this, on this pod lately and in the NBA space in general because they're feeling feisty right now and I don't blame them. But like, I kind of got into a. Does Booker deserve have any kind of like, rationale? If you kind of look at the way those two teams and his production. I don't know. What do you all think about the Rockets having two? Do they absolutely deserve to.

[A]

I don't know if they absolutely deserve it. I think it is odd that if you give two to the Rockets to not give two to the Thunder, and the competition is much more stiff in the east, where it feels a little bit easier to put two pistons or two of Nick.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

For instance, on there. It's just historically, I can't imagine a team being this good, not having two representatives. And. And it is odd because of Chet's, like, just wholesale production. The numbers, in comparison to a lot of other guys we're talking about here is starkly lower than. Than that. But the fact that he has such extreme efficiency. He has a 63 effective field goal percentage. If he was just producing, but just doing it on limited opportunities, like, I could see that. But he's just making the most of what he's being provided. Yeah. And for that, it's like those couple things combined with the defense, which is a huge part of. It's probably his biggest selling point. He's what, easy? Number two defensive player of the year and probably going to win it if Victor doesn't play as many games as he ended up doing it.

[C]

That Rudy's been good, too.

[B]

Yeah, Rudy's in the mix for sure.

[A]

But all those things combined is why I gave Chet the edge over Booker. If I'm going to fast forward to that.

[B]

Yeah. So do we want to break that down? Because I basically have Chad and Booker, but no Shangoon, Kyle. Who did you end up with? Those three. Did you have room for all three of them?

[C]

I ended up having the Shingoon versus Booker thing is one that I really thought about. And then I was like, booker versus Keonte George. But I'm not gonna go there. That one.

[A]

Just.

[C]

If you weigh the nut, lay the numbers out. You're just seeing.

[B]

You're just leapfrogging Lowry, though.

[C]

No. Yeah, Well, I. I didn't have Lowry. Was it as much? No, I. I don't. I didn't think a lot about those two guys. I was just kind of like numbers wise laying just for a thought exercise. Booker versus Chianti. No, I ended up having Shingoon and Durant. Shingoon's. Shingoon's production just. He's so integral to their style. Just, you know, he's been a good playmaker. Obviously, we talked about him being the big boy of the quarter. I think that alone gives him some conversation for getting in. But what was the other guy that you asked me about. Yeah, I had both of those guys in.

[B]

No. Yeah, it was for Chet Shengoon and Booker.

[C]

I. I didn't end up putting Booker in, but I did have Chad in.

[A]

I didn't as well. I think Kyle hit it though, where it's like, it's tough to split the Rockets because Durant's just like, his resume is always so sterling because the percentages and the shot making and even those games when Shen Gun was out, the like, how important he was to the team while he wasn't there. But then when you think about the Rockets overall, he's so integral to like how they're playing. They're basically pushing teams around, especially on the offensive boards. And that's really like Shen Goon is the shining example of that. And so if anything, I had a tough time splitting the votes between the two Rockets. And that's why in addition to Booker's percentages and some of the, the lack of shooting success that he's had this season, that's kind of why I went to Rockets over Booker. But I could see the case for Booker because did not have him on there is probably the one thing where you're like, fuck, that's, that's the one thing that jumps out to you.

[B]

Well, let's, let's take this piece by piece. As far as the Rockets specifically, I initially had them kind of on similar standing as well as I alluded to. Like I was thinking Shingun was going to be on this team and then KD just kind of continued to separate himself in my mind. And some of it, as you said, Justin, is just the sheer work by the percentages where he is like a percentage point on free throws away from a 50, 40, 90 season. Incredible shit from Kevin Durant, especially for a Rockets offense that does not give him the most natural playmaking help in terms of his opera setting up his opportunities. Nothing in their half court offense is particularly easy. Kevin Durant more than anybody else on the floor is the one who is tasked with making shit happen out of those situations. And I want to be very clear about something. I think he kind of loves that. I think he lives for that shit basically more than anyone else on the planet. I'm sure it has its frustrations, but he's uniquely good at it and I think it really energizes him in terms of his play. But as far as like, who is more central to the way that the Rockets, who the Rockets are and kind of their identity, I think we talk a lot about their offensive rebounding and their bruising style as being a sengun, Stephen Adams, Tari Eason, Ahmed Thompson kind of thing. And not enough about maybe part of the reason why they are getting so many offensive rebounds and can afford to be so aggressive in that way is because Kevin Durant is drawing two to the ball basically all the time, if not more than that. Like the gravity he creates is what allows you to play the numbers game on the glass. And so I think he is as critical to that formula as basically anyone else. And with all of the production and the percentages, I think he clearly has a better case than Changun as far as the like which Rocket you would prefer. But I just don't see a world in which you could even really argue that sengun is more central to the Rocket's identity at this point.

[A]

But you put Booker in and I do think that that's a, that's a kind of a big part of all of this. I will say as we're recording this, the records are pretty similar and so at a time the Rockets had that pretty big advantage. Unfortunately, the Suns have only gone one on one since we last recorded while the Trailblazers went 2 0. Relax, that's a tough one. But do you think any part of this is your new station? This guy.

[C]

Just to be clear, Isaiah Blakely called your all's argument a mid off. I thought that was pretty good.

[B]

It's true, he's absolutely right. But one of those teams is more closely aligned to the mid than the other and I'll leave you to decide which one is which.

[A]

But good thing we we bet on the future and not exactly where we were at that moment. But that's okay. Keep going.

[B]

I'm really not worried about it either.

[A]

I'm definitely not worried that I was worried.

[C]

It's like a married couple that makes up and then they're like not sorry. I don't even know what's going on right now.

[B]

It's a perpetual sorry, not sorry thing between me and Justin that's happening on this show.

[C]

Actually no movement.

[B]

To bring it back to Devin Booker. Yeah, I just like am phenomenally impressed with what he's done this year and the versatility he's played with the like the actual leadership he's shown. He's really doing like everything I ever wanted him to do and that's important to me personally. That's not really why I would vote for him. For me, it's the way those things fit into the Suns as an ecosystem and how critical he Is to any of this working? Like, it's. It's really cool that you have all these, like, hard playing role players. If you don't have Devin Booker on your team, you're kind of cooked. Like, his ability to create advantages consistently to make the most out of those advantages, even when they're challenging, it just doesn't really work without him. And so the combination of him bringing all this to the table in terms of the momentum of the team and the way that they operate and the style and the system that they play with that has gotten them to this point. Like, I think he has to be on here. Like, I understand that we're getting to, like, a real crunch here at the end where some very qualified players are not going to be on the team. To me, Devin Booker and the balance he's playing with, like, that cannot be the guy you cut.

[A]

How do we factor in the fact that Dylan Brooks is really the emotional totem of that team? And it took someone like Brooks and some of these hard o grinders in order to allow Booker the spotlight in order to shine? Like, Booker is kind of the same guy he was before. The efficiency is actually worse than he was playing next to some of the stars he was in years past. Obviously, he's doing more and they rely on him a lot more. And I get that case for it, but I have to be honest, I do ding him him slightly for the fact that it took, like, some of these floor razors in order to get to this point. He does, yeah. He also, I think, benefits a lot from the lack of competition. The same way that Shen Goon and Durant are splitting a lot of, like, sentiments at this point.

[B]

Well, a couple things as far as, like, emotional totems go. Like, the argument you're making is basically saying that you should favor Draymond Green over Steph Curry because he's the emotional totem of the Warriors.

[A]

Like, I mean, there are different levels to this, including, like, the fact that one team has been a dynasty and one just is barely scraping to 25 wins, but, yeah, keep going.

[B]

Well, I just mean, like, there are players who are kind of volatile, catalytic players, right? They transform your team. They. They take their potential and kind of explode it. I think Dylan Brooks is one of those guys because of the attitude he plays with and the edge he plays.

[A]

With brooks also scoring 20 points a game. So it's not like he and Draymond are for sure. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I don't mean to take anything away from Dillon Brooks other than by personality type and Kind of the space he occupies within the Suns. He is the volatile piece. Devin Booker is sort of like the metronomic piece for them. Like, who is the stabilizer of the Phoenix Suns? And it's Devin Booker.

[C]

This is just the tricky space that we get into, having a team that is rewarding individual performance. And we're weighing, but then we're also trying to weigh, like, how. What impact. Like, well, we need to bump this guy up because of the team success. It's just a. It's a weird. It's. The All Star Game in general is just kind of odd, isn't it? In, like. I mean, because we're talking about a team sport, but we're to, like, reward individuals. It just creates so much. I don't know, because. Because you. The. The instinct and the impulse is just to look at raw production and things like that. And it's like, we see a Michael Porter Jr. It's like, was he actually an All Star in his DNA when he was in Denver? And he just. Now he suddenly is because he gets the opportunity. Chad Holmgren, we're bumping him up. Jaylen Duran, same thing with Chad Holmgren. Average 25. If he were playing for Charlotte, you know, it's. It's just that we end up with a lot of these just odd conversations, like, you all were talking about. Like, I don't know. Of course Draymond was an All Star.

[B]

It's true. Yeah. And I want to be. As far as that stuff goes, like, I genuinely do think we are seeing something different from Michael Porter Jr. In his, like, composition as a player. I don't think he was capable of some of this stuff without kind of, like, growing, not just getting the opportunity, but growing into this role in a really meaningful basketball way. And so, yeah, there are. There are cases where it is just context that's bringing a guy down or lifting them up. But I think part of what makes these conversations interesting is trying to suss out, like, what is the real meaningful growth? Like, what is the part that's changing here that would put this guy into a different class, that would make him, like, not just productive, but feel like a star. Like, there is a sort of intangible thing to that. That, to me, Devin Booker hits like he qualifies as that kind of player, whether he makes the team or not.

[A]

You don't think MPJ was capable of this before?

[B]

I think he was capable of scoring a lot. I think he's always been an immensely talented scorer. I mean, as we talked about one of the Best shooters really in NBA history, to be honest with you. Like, as far as like for his size and what he's able to deliver, unquestionable. Was he always ready to be this guy? I say this as somebody who is like, I've tried to follow his career very closely. He's like a personal passion project of mine in terms of who Michael Porter Jr. Can be. I've written a feature about him previously. I've talked to him about it. Like, I don't know that he was always ready for this, like ready to have this kind of role with this kind of maturity. And I think it is an incredible credit to him that he's taken this opportunity where he's been basically jettisoned from one of the true contenders in the league and taken it in stride and taken it without ever like feeling resentful about it, like embracing the opportunity in a way that is not like, I'm just going to get my shots up, but I'm going to play like healthy basketball. For a team that is not overall capable of healthy basketball. That's a really hard thing to do. And I, I don't think that a lot of young players who are incredible scorers are necessarily capable of it.

[A]

I think what's funny is his like defining characteristic that bled into his playing style is that he's totally unfazed by anything. And that was often like showcased in a bad way in Denver where you almost wanted him to be a little bit more gritty, a little bit more demonstrative, especially when it came to doing the role playing stuff that he needed to for a while. It's what kept him off the court for a long time under Mike Malone, although starting to reconsider that a little bit as some of these younger guys are playing with loan no longer there, but it almost feels like that's carried over into Brooklyn is now become like his main advantage where, where he's in big stakes and he really doesn't seem shaken by getting more the volume of shots he's taking or being in big moments. And so I don't know. On the one hand I think you're right. Like he definitely, especially when he was younger, I don't think he could have handled this sort of spotlight. On the other hand, I think it really speaks to like how we map on to certain players like what they're capable and not capable of doing broadly because of like our perception of their personality or like a stumble that they had before and they really haven't been given a showcase in order to do It. And so, I don't know. Porter's been one of the, like, the weirdest cases in history. I think you're right. I think they did, to a certain extent, just cut bait on him. Brought him a similar type of player. It did afford them opportunities to go fill out their bench. That was obviously the biggest motivation there. But, like, he's looking pretty good there.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

This is happening pretty awesome too, Kyle, where it's like, not to make it a Denny Avdia conversation, but, like, guys.

[B]

Are going swear jar the shit out of that one.

[A]

This is relevant, but, like, guys are going elsewhere and finding all star versions of them themselves, I think, obviously is more of an extreme case because he's playing completely different, but it does feel like there's opportunity for guys to go elsewhere now and like, kind of. Of revitalize their careers or shape it in a different way than I can't remember before. Does that feel off? Like, I mean, Joe Johnson was someone like that? Like, there are few cases, but not as many as we're seeing now, I would say.

[C]

Are you. Are you saying in a roundabout way that this is just a. A lob for Jonathan Kaminga to reach his destiny, Justin, Is that what you're getting at?

[A]

Well, we are at the top of the hour, so we do have to check in on this again, still not good. But. But maybe not Jonathan Kaminga, but I think there's probably serious.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, No, I was gonna. I mean, MPJ is an interesting case just because he was projected. It's just. It was a unique case of a team ascending with a, you know, a generational talent that created infrastructure that gave him an implied limited role that I think served him. But he also was a guy who was at the top of his class. And I think if you went across sort of the classes in the. In the range that he was in, like that 2018 or 17 high school class, I guess it was that this was always sort of the. This was the projected arc for him. It's just. It was delayed. And so I think it's an interesting case of. Of a team like the Nuggets picking him up at incredible value. And then we're seeing this happen. I just don't know Kuminga. I just don't know that Kaminga is going to have the same. It's interesting because the. The shooting is the thing that's at the center of what MPJ does, and I don't think Kuminga has a skill like that that's at the center If I asked you, like, what is it? It's just like athlete, you know, I, I don't know. That's a, that's a key thing. And then Denny, Denny's basketball IQ was just sort of set up to. It doesn't feel the exact same. Right. I don't know. I'm trying to think of another example across the league of a guy who's just kind of like waiting to have that same type of explosion. I think it bears sitting down and looking at.

[B]

I think it's to me demonstrative of the skill boom in the league overall, where if you want to flashback even 10 years ago, the guy who was sitting on the bench or who was playing like 8th or 9th man minutes, like they were there for a reason, right? They were there because they didn't have the capacity to carry much more offense than they were doing or to take on a bigger role. Now basically every team has some guy on their bench who can pass, dribble and shoot, who could conceivably run offense, like to varying degrees. And there are teams that have more like ball handling help than others, for example, but, but the league is so roundly skilled and talented right now that it, it doesn't shock me that some guys are having success doing exactly this. That when, when given a Josh Giddy level of responsibility, that a playmaker like him could really sing, could really find a role that works for him. Whether that can apply to Jonathan Kaminger or not. Like, to me that is more of a basketball IQ question. That's more of like a, does this guy understand what he does well and doesn't do well? And that's really, that's really the defining attribute of these breakout candidates is like, like do you really get what makes you special? And does that cloud your judgment as far as accepting other roles? Does it make you less malleable as a result? Or are you willing to actually invest in the things that make you good on a basketball court?

[A]

You asking me about me?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

I want to know what makes you good on a basketball court, Justin.

[A]

Well, nothing, because I don't get on a basketball court anymore.

[C]

Can you shoot a left handed layup, Justin?

[A]

No, I can't even draw my left hand.

[C]

Okay, cool.

[A]

Laurie Markkanen. I think another prime example of this, who we have.

[C]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[B]

Great shout.

[A]

I also think this is a prime case for expansion. It doesn't seem like there's much momentum there. Everything is going abroad at the moment in the league office, but like there are so few places for These guys to unearth this now the fact that these guys are doing it, it's also in the context of other things happening there. It's not like even Denny, for instance was given the keys as soon as he got to another team because they saw this in him. And then all of a sudden like he's. He's had two to three different versions of himself even on this team. MPJ a little easier just because of the one to one comp of the skills. But there's shaden shading could. Yes.

[C]

He's got more of a classic world scorer type guy. You're like, you give him open road. I think the maturity and stuff would have to kind of take a leap to. In terms of awareness. Not like, you know, as a basketball player.

[B]

Do you know who the ultimate case for this is is Shea Gilgeous Alexander. Like that is a guy who was sure in a lane to be an important contributor for teams for a long time and then all of a sudden became one of the best scorers in NBA history. Like that. That is a level of like transformation that takes this idea and explodes with it.

[C]

It's a shame his legacy is going to be so tainted because of the offensive fouls though. I mean it's going to really bring him down. It's all in jeopardy right now.

[B]

You will not. You will not drag us into this trench. You will not.

[C]

I just. I want to litigate each one clip by clip.

[A]

We need to take one more break. And we come back. We left one guy off that we all agreed on that I want to talk about.

[D]

This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios. Send help from the twisted mind of Sam Raimi, director of the Evil Dead and Drag Me to hell starring Rachel McAdams and Dylan O'. Brien. I like both of them. Comes a new film that begs the question, what would you do if you were stuck on an island with your terrible Boss in paradise? HR can't hear you scream. Only in theaters in 3D January 30th. Get tickets now.

[A]

All right, last guy on the list. We all agreed. We didn't mention him because I wanted to talk to about him and some of these other guys that we didn't end up making it. Kawhi Leonard. Interesting case where if you'd asked me like just throw away like games played or whatever, just like the five guys who have been just absolutely bulletproof this season. He's on there when he plays. The Clippers are a completely different team. He is on another fucking level. 50, 40, 94. At high volume. I was looking this up. So he's taking almost 20 shots a game. Like 50, 40, 90. I remember coming around when Nash started doing it as like something that everybody knew about that was the marker of a successful shooting season. Nash's most field goals in a single season was 14. It was actually 13.6. Qu's doing that at 20.

[C]

But Nash didn't shoot enough. He admitted it. Yeah.

[A]

Yes, yes. But Qu played 30 games. Okay, that's enough to where I felt comfortable putting him in. He's also out the next two games as we're recording this, his knee irritation. We might not see him again. Like, this is what happens with him. And I have to say I was given great pause, was just being in fear that he wouldn't be able to make it to All Star, practically just.

[B]

You didn't think he would make it there in one piece doing what he's been doing.

[A]

Yeah. And if he's not playing that many games, if he's at 30 and all these other guys are at 40 at that point, that's going to look a little weird. On top of the other weirdness where it's just like, would he prefer to not be into it?

[C]

That's what I was thinking. That's what I was thinking. There's enough. There's enough bathrooms at Intuit for him to hide in. There you go. Sort of like slip between.

[B]

Well, wouldn't the move for us as journalists in holding power to account to force him to be it into it, to answer the tough questions, you know, to do All Star media availability, which is really, I mean, one of the few remaining justice systems we have in this country. Maybe that's really the move for us. Maybe we have to force him to be there.

[C]

Yeah, there's a real slip and jimmy kind of quality to Kawhi's availability where it's like, you know, it seems everybody's seeing better calls where it's just like, all right, here we go. We're finally. We're getting it together. And then you're like, you just can't. It's. Of course, that's not fair because you can't control his body. It's.

[A]

It's.

[C]

It's just that, that constant, like, we're, we're, we're back. We're not actually back kind of thing, but he's just been so. He just looks like Kawhi Leonard, just absolutely out there moving at his pace. And you cannot speed him up. You can't do anything with him shooting the shit out of the ball, he looks defensively like a terror at times. Granted, not the same Kawhi, the past, but if he's going to continue to be this guy, yeah, I think he deserves to be there for sure. And if we're doing 30, I mean, you. You were doing fronds at 25. I mean, that's kind of. By that logic, I think he's in.

[B]

Yeah, I. I don't have a problem with it at all. I think he has to be on this team. I think his play is pretty much undeniable. Again, there's different rules for different guys, right. If you are playing at the level.

[C]

Of Kawhi Leonard, it's Shay Gil, just Alexander. That's the truth. Offensive fouls, there's different rules.

[B]

All right, stop. Point being, if you are playing to this standard, I'm gonna kind of move heaven and earth to make sure there's a place for you on the team. Despite whatever you may think about Kawhi as a leader, the era of the Clippers, everything that's going on with the aspiration investigation, which honestly kind of want to talk about not in its merits, but like, what you hold against a player for something like this, for like an all star selection or an all NBA selection, that's extracurricular, right? Like, strictly off course, what actually matters. And I think there are years where if a guy quits on his team, if a guy makes a trade demand that, like, blows up all the momentum of. Of where his organization is going, that feels like a basketball thing that I actually do kind of weigh a little bit. If you get a coach fired, like, that's a basketball thing that actually kind of matters and factors into this. I just consider all this stuff, which I assume is true. Maybe it won't be to be more of, like, a Clippers infraction than a Kawhi infraction. Like, he took more money against the rules of the salary cap. Is that a. Is that a Kawhi problem or is that a Clippers problem?

[C]

I think if you ask his teammates if they're mad about him getting more money, they're probably universally going to be like, I do the same thing. I mean, I'm sure the. The IR is directed at the Clippers for, like, why you did this for him, not me, but there's a lot of that that goes on with Kawhi in the first place. Of, like, you do this for Kawhi.

[A]

Do we need to split hairs? Like, I guess I'm not really saying one is at fault more than the other. It was just like two parties that colluded allegedly in order to go make this happen. Like there's blood on both sides.

[B]

I think the only reason you would split hairs is if you are at all moved by the idea of Kawhi Leonard should not be an All Star because he is the subject of controversy. Right. Because he has like violated not an unwritten rule but an extremely written rule that he shouldn't be an All Star as a result of that. For one. I just think he's been good enough that I, I don't really care that much given the particulars of this exact case. And even then I'm not so concerned that like this is the type of thing that should disqualify someone from an individual award.

[A]

Well, luckily the investigation is taking seven months and definitely isn't being slow played for a specific result from the NBA side of things.

[C]

I don't think this ascends into the like ethical concern that, that, that you know, if, if a player has like a legal concern where they've done something like, like a, a domestic dispute or something that is really like, ah, that's like of course we don't need, you know. And, and I also don't think that it really, it's not really on the level of like a, like even like a point shaving type thing. I don't think it's like a game.

[B]

No, it's not even.

[C]

So it's like. So I'm just like. No, I mean I'm stating, I'm, I'm stating the obvious here, but I just don't. And I, but then I also don't think, think just going through the criteria here where it might make an impact. I don't think it's had an impact on their, them as a team. Right. Because him behaving weirdly in a way that would affect the team. Like you to what you were saying. I don't even think it's in that category. So to me it's kind of a nothing burger. It's like he's playing basketball and that money is just sort of a separate thing that I don't think is having any impact on them as a team. Great. I can't say that for sure. What do you, what do you all think about that?

[A]

It's a basketball reward and honor and this didn't really impact the basketball. You could make the argument like, oh, maybe they were able to afford this, this role player at this point as opposed to this one, but that wouldn't matter. He's playing as you just alluded to he's playing at the peak of his powers right now. And so unless it bled into the actual team chemistry, as you alluded to, I don't think it matters.

[B]

Yeah, I'm. I'm with it. I mean, to me, that just makes his case that much more waterproof. Like, really, the only thing holding Kawhi Leonard back was if you wanted to be a real hardliner about games played. And I don't even think there's really much reason for that. That.

[A]

Yeah, well, if we're talking about olds in Los Angeles, I do think we have to talk about LeBron James just briefly here, if only because.

[C]

Talk about your Tinder app again. I didn't know where you were going with that.

[A]

I'm on hinge, Kyle. Thank you.

[C]

Unhinged. Yeah.

[A]

Hey. As some of these injury guys start to come off the board, maybe Jokic doesn't plays, maybe Kawhi doesn't play. If he's. He's nominated to the team, I do wonder if the impulse from Silver will be to go and grab LeBron in no small part, because I don't know if you guys caught wind of the patch LeBron James is now wearing for every game honoring his 23 seasons. I will just say that was weird to begin with.

[B]

I didn't even know you could do that.

[A]

Just have a patch made for you because you're a cool guy.

[B]

I'm considering it myself. Just show up every pod with a. More like a commemorative patch about. I don't know, some trivial part of my podcasting performance. I think that would be great.

[C]

We need, like, a bed. I was gonna say we need, like, Ohio State helmet sticker kind of thing.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Bill. To listen. Or someone. Someone. Some higher governing body at the ringer to be like, that was a good point. Or that was a good joke. And we get stickers. I'd be for that. Or patches.

[A]

Big hits. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. The around. The hornification of this podcast begins in earnest.

[A]

I'm actually into that. I always love the. The Buckeye sticker thing. That was.

[B]

It's a good bit.

[A]

So that patch thing is very weird and ominous. And I also think, just having been around the team, I think people are on red alert. That's. That might be a signal that this might be the end in a way that I took note of. I don't think anyone knows anything, but I think people are just have their ears perked up. And it's something to keep in mind if he does get nominated to this team. I think it might be a pretty big tell that, like, perhaps he's just slow playing. I think we all assumed that maybe he would do the Kobe thing, do one farewell tour. Seemed like Chris Paul was kind of doing the same thing or wanted to do that before the Clippers took it away from him. Maybe LeBron just does this differently. Maybe he just fades away, just decides whatever sciatica injury stuff, his play isn't up to where he is, maybe just fades away and that's how this ends.

[B]

I think it's possible. I still think he ends up coming back. And I think regardless, like, regardless of what the tea leaves tell you about LeBron's eventual retirement, I think there's a decent chance he ends up making this team because of who he is, because of the shadow he casts over the entire sport, like an absolute giant in this space. And I think if anything, the voting will shake out where a couple of American players, because of the American international format, that will be the addition. Well, there will need to be one to two American additions. And if you're not picking LeBron, I think we're talking about Austin Reeves, Evan Mobley, Julius Randle, James Harden, like good players having good seasons, but there's no one there who's like, oh my God, we can't not have James Harden on this team. And so because of that, I wonder if there will be a deference paid and LeBron could be the. The American additional substitute to make the teams work.

[A]

Does that bother you, Kyle? Like, if It's. If it's LeBron, I mean, no.

[C]

There's nobody in there that I would be angry about that. That they're getting, you know, slighted really.

[B]

Other than Keonte George.

[C]

That's true. I'm very big on keynote George. And I. Yeah, I don't.

[A]

I don't.

[C]

I think LeBron's back, man.

[B]

I don't.

[C]

I don't see. I don't. It'd be. I'm trying to think of guys like going out on their own to own terms. It's really. Would only be like mj, but even MJ came back after he had kind of burned out a little bit. It's it. Kobe, Kobe. The game told Kobe it was time, you know. And I. And most people, you know, it's the we're all told we have to stop and thing. I don't feel like the game is totally told LeBron yet. Cause he's still out there doing stuff. It's just he's on when you're picking your spots on. On such A flawed team. You know, it'd be interesting to see what he would look like on a really competitive team, like a really good team that had a credible. But I don't know if he's ever going to be on one of those again because of his salary, because of whatever it is. But he's still so productive that I don't think he's going to hang it up yet.

[B]

I also love the idea of not just like the farewell tour, but the Kareem Style farewell tour where every team offers him like some kind of gift as he makes his way around the league. Like, I can't remember which. Some team gave Kareem, like a really nice rocking chair. The rocking chair is the legendary one. I just want to know what the Detroit pistons would give LeBron James. What do you get for the man who has everything? I would like to find out.

[A]

What are you going to give him when he goes down to Dallas?

[B]

Why do I have to give him something? Because I'm not the mayor. I don't run the Dallas Mavericks.

[A]

Hollywood Mahoney over here, you guys are just palling around at the clubs.

[B]

Not quite happening that way. But, you know, the season is young yet. Maybe things could really transform for us. Luckily, that's not my job, but I would love to see what all these teams cook up as a way to like, like again. How do you honor a legacy like this? It's monumental.

[A]

I'll say this like, if it isn't his last season, what's with the patch? It's just like he wears 23 and this is his 23rd season. So should we just start doing this for all.

[C]

They're going to be a 24 patch. We'll see. I hope so.

[A]

Maybe, you know, like when Blake Griffin jumped over ikea, do we give him just like a car patch and just. It's based off of whatever thing you did that was cool.

[B]

I don't know. Why would we not honor the things that are cool?

[C]

There's a quote. That's a good one.

[A]

I guess it's worth to live by. Rob, Honey should be going on. On just words of wisdom from you every time.

[B]

Like, real Jack Handy style. I don't know if I have that in me, but I can try.

[A]

Anything else on these All Stars. We just did an hour and 30. So it's been.

[C]

I was going to say we've been. We've been hammering it. Yeah.

[B]

Can we hit a couple quick honorable mentions on the west, we talked about Rudy Gobert having a potentially defensive player of the Year worthy season within.

[A]

You already listed a few when you were talking about LeBron. These are honorable mention to the honorable mentions.

[B]

Well, Rudy Gobert isn't an American, so he's not in the James Harden, Julius Randall category of somebody who would be in competition with LeBron but should be in competition for an all star spot.

[A]

I see what you did there.

[C]

Yeah, defense matters, damn it. It really does matters.

[B]

And yeah, we touched on Lowry as well. Like Lowry Market is a wildly prolific scorer for somebody who is not going to make the all star team. So we at least need to say his name on this podcast.

[A]

We said it earlier.

[B]

Well, but in honorable mention capacity specifically.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

Do we not check the boxes?

[A]

We. I thought we checked it earlier. But if you would like to make sure it's specifically in this.

[B]

I would.

[C]

Who?

[B]

He is an honorable mention.

[A]

I guess if someone's jumping around in the pod like, and they didn't hear us say it two minutes ago. I'm glad that you. You got it on the pod.

[B]

Justin, Somebody was doing the dishes earlier when we in passing mentioned Larry Marcon. Like, you got it. You got to really set it, set a tone here at the end.

[C]

This is Netflix, right? Didn't Matt Damon say you have to restate things every. So we should start doing that every.

[B]

Three to six minutes. Justin needs to reiterate the point of our podcast.

[A]

I wish I could. I could do that succinctly at this point. Kyle, you seem like you have something you want to say.

[C]

Oh, no, I was just like, going through that. I was like, we're just doing our due diligence. Who could we not make, like, you know, avoid making mad? I was like, you know, Zion's produced. But no, I'm trying to think of other people. I think we've said all the names, so I feel good. Conscious is clear. Okay.

[A]

Just glad. I just want you guys to feel good about this.

[B]

I always do.

[A]

Okay, on that note, why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Devin Ronaldo for filling in on production. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We will be back on Wednesday as per usual. Talk to you then.