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- [00:02]
Logan Murdoch
What's poppin, everybody? Logan Murdoch here from Real Ones on the Ringer NBA show. And I wanted to invite you to pull up and kick it with Raja Bell, Howard Beck and myself during All Star Weekend for our live podcast. We're going to be at the historic Punchline Comedy Club in San francisco on Saturday, February 15th at 2pm pregaming all the All Star festivities. And you never know who might stop by. Get your tickets now by heading over to ringer.com events. That's ringer.com events. Hope to see you there.
- [00:50]
Justin Varier
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varior, and joining me, the luminaries of trade deadline podcasting. Rob Mahoney, big was. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me. Just a lowly grommet of NBA podcasting here on Friday, the day after the trade deadline, the day after we typically record in order to go through all of the action that happened Thursday and the days before. So thank you. I appreciate it.
- [01:18]
Rob Mahoney
You're very welcome.
- [01:19]
Wojnarowski
I wear many hats. This is nothing for me. I can do it all. I can show up with Bill Simmons. I could be here with my guys if Joe Rogan called me and said, yo, we need some deadline talk. I'm ready. So there's nothing for me.
- [01:33]
Rob Mahoney
Was Will podcast with literally anyone, anybody? You know what, Justin? We're happy to be here with you in part because, you know, we've been swapping takes. We've been swapping takes with people around the office. I have not heard a single morsel of a Justin Varier trade deadline take yet. And not only do the people want it, I personally need it. I need to know what you think about your personal super bowl, the Ben Simmons buyout derby. This is. This is. This is where we live. This is what we need to be doing is figuring out when where Ben Simmons is going to go. And I need to know it from you.
- [02:05]
Justin Varier
Listen, if you need someone to guard your second unit's best player once every 13 days, okay, call Ben Simmons. Right. That's a helpful player to a lot of contenders. I'll say this. I. I've seen reports that he might go to Cleveland, he might go to some other contenders. I would be looking at Denver right now and seeing what Jokic did for Russell Westbrook. Unfortunately, they. They can't, I think, because they're in the second apron. But, like, man, that would have been perfect. I. I would have loved to see him breathe new life into one of our favorite players in the NBA.
- [02:41]
Wojnarowski
Justin, you know how I feel about Nicole Jokic.
- [02:45]
Justin Varier
Yeah.
- [02:46]
Wojnarowski
Even he couldn't save that boy.
- [02:48]
Justin Varier
Aw, that's.
- [02:48]
Rob Mahoney
There are limits.
- [02:50]
Wojnarowski
There are limits to the powers of Nikola Jokic, the God I worship at his altar. I'm not bringing this human sacrifice to him. Even he can't do it.
- [03:02]
Justin Varier
You say that Simmons is going to play 10 minutes of a second round playoff game and he's going to turn that game. You're going to be like, whoa, there's.
- [03:12]
Rob Mahoney
Going to be Simmons game, you think?
- [03:15]
Justin Varier
I think there's going to be a Ben Simmons game. I could feel it in my bones. Just like I feel very strongly about things that have happened over the course of this trade deadline. I have down for you guys five questions which I have finally manicured lead crafted as I had all yesterday to prepare for them off the rails. Why don't we start at the top here with the dog shit of yesterday? Because there was a couple things that flew around that I just frankly am still struggling to figure out. First question, who wins the team of Fae Mozgoff Memorial Most curious move of the day. So we're looking at the most perplexing move. Who did the thing that like, we're still trying to figure out here what, 24 hours later. I have three choices on the board. You could bring your own if you want to. A Memphis dumping Marcus Smart for cap space. B Toronto trading for Brandon Ingram, dealing another first round pick at the deadline to get a guy who's an impending free agent this off season. Or C Milwaukee getting Kyle Kuzma and only Kyle Kuzma. Rob, where do you stand?
- [04:29]
Rob Mahoney
I think it's Kyle Kuzma for me. My feelings about Kyle Kuzma are well, well articulated at this point. Here's the problem. Memphis. While I don't understand it, for a team that has genuine aspirations and credibility to contend now they are a winning team. They could win the Western Conference this year. That is in play for them. They have chosen to go with some financial flexibility, but it's financial flexibility, it seems, with the intention of renegotiating and extending Jaren Jackson junior's contract. Who could blame them for such a thing? Jaren Jackson Jr. Is a great player. The Milwaukee Bucks, on the other hand, made a move for a player who I don't particularly like as a fit for them all that much or like all that much in general. And one that appears to be a cost cutting move on face to get them under the apron so then they could potentially make another move. But as you said, Justin, only Kyle Kuzma is sort of the problem here. If they had gotten Kyle Kuzma and used their newfound flexibility to bring in another player. I may be more sympathetic to this situation, but was as the foremost Kuz defender, not just at the company, not just on this podcast, but maybe in the world. Can you please explain to me how this makes sense for the Bucks?
- [05:38]
Wojnarowski
First of all, they got Kevin Porter Jr. Too. So that was another move.
- [05:42]
Rob Mahoney
Like I said, nothing.
- [05:43]
Wojnarowski
That's another move that they make. The Kuzma thing is really easy to understand. He can play the three or the four next to both Giannis and Brook Lopez. Um, he's a transition guy. He is one of the best cutters in the league. He proved that when he was playing with people that would actually pass him the ball. That is back in 2020. I get it. It was five years ago, but he made himself into a cutter, he made himself into a rebounder. He made himself into somebody who could guard multiple positions. Not. He's not going to lock people down. He's not going to be a men Thompson tomorrow, okay? But he's going to be credible whenever they put him in a spot. He's not gonna kill them. And Milwaukee has had nothing if not a bunch of players who kill them situationally. And Khris Middleton was, to borrow the phrase from producers, a a cone. The man could not move. He couldn't guard my grandmother and she's dead. Okay? He sucked. Kyle Kuzma is an improvement on that in terms of defensively and offensively. I get it. He's shooting 27%. He was taking pull up 30 footers over there. Guess what he's not going to do in Milwaukee? Dribble. Dribble up the court, not past anybody and take a pull up. That's not what he's there to do. He's going to take spot up jumpers, he's going to attack closeouts. He's going to be able to dribble, like be a little bit of an offensive hub when needed. Mind you, this is a guy who averaged 20 points a game in this league before, okay? He's not some scrub. I get it. He was in NBA Siberia the last five years and it's easy to write him off as he's a loser. He's a losing player, bro. He was a key ingredient to what they did on that championship team, guys. He will plug in holes where needed. That's what he's there to do. He's not there to be Chris Middleton, part two.
- [07:55]
Rob Mahoney
No.
- [07:55]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I kind of agree with both of you guys. I think there's some version in the middle where Kuzma is just an upgrade over Middleton because he could be more consistent than Middleton was given. Middleton was like fine every couple of games with the game. I saw him live. He literally could not keep himself from following because his body just wouldn't move in the way that an NBA player could. Kuznet gives them some sort of athletic pop that, that they need. And to W's point, yeah, he has had an awful season, but the Wizards have been so dreadful that Jonas Valentunas got traded late Wednesday night. He played a game last night in Portland 24 hours later, less than 24 hours later, not just like showed up at the game. He was playing bench minutes for that team. And so we have to factor that in here. But I also agree with Rob where it's like if this was the setup move to do something else to have Kuzma as your fourth or fifth best player as opposed to what is now third, I think that's where the problems start.
- [08:55]
Rob Mahoney
I agree with you. I think that's, that's the issue right now where I do see him as an upgrade. And maybe let's just take the Chris Middleton out of it for a second. They didn't have like healthy Chris Middleton to begin with this year. Maybe that's not a relevant comparison point where I am sympathetic to your cause was is not as a Chris Middleton replacement. But what happens when you replace some of the Andre Jackson, Ryan Rollins minutes with Kyle Kuzma, a player who is not the defender that those guys are or even the effort player that those guys are all the time but has a more well rounded game. And I think most importantly, percentages be damned will be guarded more credibly than some of the Bucks supporting cast will be. And so he's not their best perimeter defender. And if anything I think you can point at the Bucks and say why did you not get a very, very high level point of attack defender? Was that completely outside the realm of possibility? And maybe it was. But they have ended up in this middle ground with a guy who is pretty versatile in all the ways you outlined was a good transition player, a guy who can take the ball and go, who can make things happen potentially from the weak side isn't great at anything. And maybe that's enough to sort of work as the ballast of this Bucks team. I just look at Milwaukee's roster and I say that team needs more than ballast. They need pronounced defensive strength in particular. And Kyle Kuzma is not that they.
- [10:10]
Wojnarowski
Were supposed to get that with Chris Middleton's corpse of contract. How do you. How do you make that happen with Chris Middleton? How do you convince a team that, oh, no, no, no, no, yeah, he's a veteran locker room presence, but he's not going to do anything on the court. And by the way, he ain't cheap. I think they bought low on Kuzma and I. I'm sorry, y'all like this idea that Kyle Kuzma is not a high effort player on the Wizards. Like, we talk about this all the time when you.
- [10:44]
Rob Mahoney
It's not just on the Wizards, it's five years. Like, even if he. Even if he has a switch too.
- [10:49]
Wojnarowski
Far, the Wizards were good at some point and I missed it, actually.
- [10:52]
Rob Mahoney
They were. They were fine at some points. But I'm saying this is a. Now a long run of established habits. Even if you think he has a switch to flip that. That that generator is going to need time to turn on.
- [11:04]
Wojnarowski
Let me ask you something, Mahoney.
- [11:05]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [11:06]
Wojnarowski
Let's say we. Let's say we traded you somehow to the National Enquirer.
- [11:11]
Rob Mahoney
You're trading me to the Inquirer?
- [11:12]
Wojnarowski
Okay, well, we traded you to tmz or we traded you, God forbid, the Breitbart for five years.
- [11:20]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [11:20]
Wojnarowski
Okay.
- [11:21]
Justin Varier
Wow.
- [11:21]
Wojnarowski
Okay. And you came back to us.
- [11:23]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [11:23]
Wojnarowski
Or you came back to, I don't know, what's a reputable media organization. You went to espn, you started writing for the Athletic. You spent five years at Breitbart, or you spent five years at the Enquirer, you spent five years with Harvey Levinson, and then you went back to a credible organization. Your pen not gonna work no more, Rob.
- [11:48]
Rob Mahoney
I think this is where me and Coos diverge in the woods, is that he has been given chances to go to credible organizations and said, no, I'm good.
- [11:55]
Wojnarowski
This is what it is. He didn't want to go to Dallas. That this is.
- [11:57]
Justin Varier
I think he would have to prove himself. If we're talking about Rob, if he. If he did five years at Breitbart, there'd be a lot he would need to show, but he would get a chance.
- [12:05]
Rob Mahoney
I agree, but this is the thing. Like, I agree with you. The Chris Middleton contract at this stage, given what Chris has shown this season, is. Is hard to move for a meaningfully better player than Kyle Kuzma. But if you were going to move it, you would have to do it on the pretense of somebody who's. Has a little bit less to prove in this way, who has a little bit, like, lower of A burden of proof in terms of how good they need to be on both sides of the ball, how much they fit. Like, I. I want to be at the point where I'm talking myself into a player who conceptually could make a lot of sense for the Bucks. And I just personally don't think Kyle Kuzma is that player.
- [12:40]
Justin Varier
I will say the business aspect of it for the Bucks doesn't bear. Well, for Kuzma. Like, that doesn't really give him a stamp of credibility that the bucks gave up AJ Johnson, their most recent number 23 pick, who everybody labeled as a reach at the time, plus a 2018 swap, in order to go get him. But I don't think he's actually the worst move on the board here. Of these three choices. I don't think it's the worst business on the board here. I think that's actually Memphis dumping Marcus Smart. So in total, they spend three firsts, plus Tyus Jones for 39 games of smart. And even if you say, like, oh, it's to help out Jaren Jackson Jr. Who, by the way, is someone I flagged as I was going through the 2026 free agents. Cause that's when Luca could come up, and that's where Luca could presumably get a teammate into the Lakers. I was like, oh, there's a lot of old guys, but Jaren Jackson, huh? Makes a lot of sense. So maybe that was a move to counteract what. What just happened with the Lakers. We could talk about that a little bit later. But to do that now and just kind of throw, like, get rid of another useful rotation player in Jake Laravia, just. Couldn't you have done that in the off season at worst? I just don't get that.
- [13:52]
Wojnarowski
Yeah, I mean, Marcus Smart, definitely. He's just been a theoretical piece. He just has not played since they traded for him. He cannot stay on the court. And, you know, as Bill mentioned yesterday, it feels like Boston guys kind of knew that physically he was breaking down, and that's why they were okay parting ways with somebody who was a freaking staple of this era. Obviously, Kristaps has been such a beautiful addition and changed the way that they play forever. But getting rid of Marcus Smart obviously didn't come lightly. And the fact that he just. This dude has not played in two years, cannot play, can't get on the court. Um, it's tough. And he's owed 21 million guaranteed next season.
- [14:46]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I would get it if. If they had a move after the fact. I have to almost wonder if they were in the mix for some bigger move and were using him as salary flotsam and then the music just stopped because we had reports that they were in on Jimmy or at least sniffing there and then Bob Myers let it fly on the DE accidentally that they were in the Kevin Durant mix or at the very least were sniffing around him. So maybe they were just like trying to do stuff. They had to just get him off because he would have known about it and wouldn't have been an issue. But that's one I just, I don't get. And then we could talk about Toronto, who once again seems like they're playing a different game out there. I think my question with them is do they know something about the value or the landing of. No, I was going to say a first round picks because they keep jumping the gun in order to get guys in there a year before their free agency. And so maybe they're just looking at that as like a market inefficiency where like RJ Barrett and quickly are very good players and these guys just don't want to pay them because of the way like the cap math works. Well I'll just get them in there, I have cap and I'll just utilize these good players and make them better. Maybe that's what they're thinking with Ingram, but the way that these things all kind of come together doesn't really coalesce into a better than average team I would think.
- [16:02]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I don't have a problem with a team in the Raptors position making what they see as asset place right like Brandon Ingram's value is incredibly low right now. The idea of getting a player who can do all the things that he does at the cost that they paid, which we should say two players who were not going to be a part of their long term plans and a first round pick that is not going to be that great. Not an unreasonable price to pay on its face for a player like Ingram. The problem that I have with it is if you do make these sorts of asset plays, you want players who because of your style and your roster could pop either so that you can keep them on good value contracts going forward or you can trade them and the rest of the league will think that that player is really good or really valuable. We have a lot of empirical evidence that says most of the league is not super interested in trading for Brandon Ingram and I don't suspect that's going to change if you're paying him $40 million a year.
- [16:52]
Wojnarowski
You don't think Scottie Barnes And Ingram are the new Tatum and Brown. You're not getting that feeling somehow. I don't think they're recreating the magic in Boston. I think the only way this makes sense, they think they could get Brandon Ingram on a respectable deal. Perhaps like a three year player option after two kind of deal. Maybe you even pay him 35, close to 40 million throughout the duration of the contract. But it's not because you're going to give him the contract that he's been angling for for two years, that nobody wanted to pay nobody. The guy's been on the block for two years.
- [17:37]
Justin Varier
Yeah, there's no competition out there. No one has money except for the Brooklyn Nets. And it doesn't seem like they would want to get into the Brandon Ingram business. So there is a logic to that. This isn't Siakam where the Pacers had to give him a max because he could have gone elsewhere. He already gave up all this, Stu. The Raptors didn't give up a lot. And if they let him go it would be bad, but it wouldn't be like a catastrophe. I just don't think, I don't see how it all fits together though. Like, so are we envisioning Ingram being your primary ball handler? What does that mean for Barrett who likes the ball in his hands? What does that mean for quickly? These guys all aren't ball dominant in the way that like a Harden would be. But at the very least these are guys that like to be on the ball. And so yeah, I don't get it.
- [18:17]
Wojnarowski
Brandon Ingram has kind of proven over and over again that he's not a play off of people player. He doesn't. He needs the ball. He needs to sort of probe. He needs multiple possessions to establish like how he thinks he's going to attack. He's not going to shoot any threes, he's not going to pull up, he's not going to guard anybody. I mean this guy has like a 73 wingspan. He has decent enough feet. He should be one of the better defenders at his position in the NBA he's been the opposite. He's one of the worst defenders at his position and all of that. So he can snake around picks and take long too. Like I used to have a little Ingram cape cause I thought like the tools would one day come to fruition. With the right coach, the right team, the tools would coalesce into a guy that like had. So every now and again he's flashing, you know, playmaking and pick and roll every now and Again, it's like, oh, the jumper is like pretty smooth. Every now and again he's flashing all these different things, but it's never coalesced. He thinks of himself as, you know, give me the ball, let me cook kind of player. And if Brandon Ingram is cooking that meal, I do not want to eat there.
- [19:39]
Rob Mahoney
Nor do I. And I think the overarching problem here is he gets in the way of what the best things that the Raptors have going. And so, yeah, a best case scenario for Ingram is one in which he dramatically reinvents himself. A more realistic version is one where he continues to play pretty well within the context of how Brandon Ingram plays. And it just doesn't really do a lot for you. It doesn't take you anywhere meaningful. I keep coming back to this place with Ingram. He's been in the NBA almost a decade now. He's had two winning seasons in his entire career. There are circumstantial factors that are so far beyond his control. The early Lakers being what they were, Zion Williamson getting hurt. All those things are true. There's also the parts of Brandon Ingram's game that are not malleable, that do not accommodate others, that do not fit in the context of trying to facilitate Scotty Barnes development. Finding places for RJ Barrett off the ball like RJ and Scotty, and Quickley, to their credit, have give to their games in ways that can make some of that stuff make sense. Like the team doesn't have quite enough yet, but you're starting to see the overall roster put itself together in a way that could work even when some guys have been out of the lineup. Ingram complicates all that and he gives you talent. But talent isn't enough when it becomes at the expense of the guys you already have.
- [20:54]
Wojnarowski
He'd have to become a great screener, a great cutter, a willing catch and shoot person. He'd have to be willing to get off of the ball, a ball mover. Has Brandon Ingram ever done that?
- [21:07]
Rob Mahoney
He'd have to be Kyle Kuzma.
- [21:08]
Justin Varier
You're saying to Ingram's credit, he has been taking more threes in the few games that he played this season. I think he's up to around seven. And the Raptors have unearthed something in RJ Barrett that we didn't really see in New York. Quickley's kind of a tbd, But I think Rob's right that there is like a version where this may be coalesce, but you're hoping for veteran players, players who are going to be on Big salaries who didn't necessarily pick Toronto actually actively, like, doing the hard stuff. Somebody's going to have to do the hard stuff other than Scotty Barnes on this team or Jakob Poe, who, God bless him, is just doing all of the hard stuff. And the other part of this is like you kind of screw up your tank here. Ingram has been hurt for a little while here. I don't know if he's been hurt or if he's been hurt, but if they're better over the back end of this season is like just screws up the one chance you have at a plum draft pick. And so very perplexing, I would say. I would say if we're answering this question, I would still go with Memphis, but, man, I just. It seems like Toronto is trying something that's like light years ahead, but I just don't get how it adds up to a winning contender in the immediate. So we'll see on that one.
- [22:17]
Wojnarowski
Toronto is doing things where their GM can't get fired.
- [22:22]
Justin Varier
Well, sounds like that's how they might have to do these things or he will get fired. I don't know. There were some wild stories about, like, his relationship with sportsnet people and the people taking over that team there, so we'll see. Speaking of down bad, number two, who's the down baddest as a result of this trade deadline? A. Kevin Durant, who was in nine different rumors and basically had to tell the warriors not to bring him back. Be Trae Young, who his future is, according to Chris Haynes, becoming murky. C. Chris Middleton and Marcus Smart, who were in one of the best graphics I've ever seen in the photoshopped Washington Wizards jerseys just teaming up and like, these are the new duo of the Wizards or D, me for having to sit out yesterday's trade deadline and come up with this dog.
- [23:15]
Rob Mahoney
Well, we already know the answer is D. You've been crashing out pretty hard.
- [23:19]
Justin Varier
Yeah, that's right. Well, who's number two, then?
- [23:25]
Rob Mahoney
It's hard to not pick people going to the Wizards. Okay, like Chris Middleton. Here's the thing. One thing we have not talked about enough with the Chris Middleton trade. We've, we've discussed in and out what he's been this season we probably haven't talked enough about. This is the end of a sort of era of Milwaukee Bucks basketball and one of the longest tenured on court relationships in the sport. He had something really special with Giannis that culminated in a championship. And I will say, part of what makes this so agonizing is they never really got a chance to defend it without one of them being hurt. They never really had any moment since they won the title. A real run where both Giannis and Middleton were on the floor, healthy, operating together. And so to see it go down like this, and Chris Middleton, a guy who's had a great career, who established this amazing on court rapport with Giannis, who to this day is probably the best playmaker in terms of chemistry with, that Giannis has ever had, now is a Washington wizard and gets to babysit if he wants to play. And I suspect he does want to play, but, like, work his way back and try to prove his value for a context that as. As was so eloquently laid out is not where anyone wants to play, anyone wants to be a part of.
- [24:36]
Wojnarowski
I want to see Chris Middleton, your boy, become just a consummate winning type of player in Washington. He better turn himself into a hustle monster. He better turn himself into the coach's pet. Because in Washington, apparently everybody should want to and be able to do that because the setting, it allows for everybody to become obviously winning type of players. And I better see Khris Middleton step up to the plate and become just the consummate professional, the veteran in the locker room, the sage, he better become that because Washington, apparently you just wake up in the morning in Washington and want to become goddamn Judge Judd Bushler.
- [25:19]
Rob Mahoney
If you think Chris Middleton is not going to be a consummate pro going to the Wizards, I got bad news for you. Like, he's going to show up. He's going to do his job. He's probably going to be a more welcome presence on that team than Kyle Kuzma is or has ever been. If we're all being honest about it. I'm not worried about that part.
- [25:34]
Wojnarowski
Chris Middleton not very accepting of a role when he was in Milwaukee, as he became a more diminished player.
- [25:43]
Rob Mahoney
That was the thing. That's the thing.
- [25:44]
Wojnarowski
He. He was not. He did not embrace his new reality in Milwaukee with just open arms, of course. And I understand he, like in 2021, when. When these guys did generate quality offense in crunch time, it's because Chris Middleton was driving it. It's not cause Giannis got the ball isolated and made magic happen. It's because Chris Middleton was doing stuff. Um, and I, I have ultimate respect for what he provided for the team. It's just like he is just such a diminished version of himself. And I don't know, like, is Bilal cool a ballet? He's. He's going to love Chris Middleton now. Let's hope so. He might, because apparently that guy's got opinions.
- [26:25]
Justin Varier
The thrill of competition will just. Just lift his spirits. By the way, speaking of Giannis, did you see the tweet and then delete of a tweet where it was like a red circle, white circle, and then like the thinky emoji? He did this in the midst of the trade deadline, like soon after Middleton got traded.
- [26:42]
Rob Mahoney
What does that mean?
- [26:44]
Justin Varier
Did the producers of your live podcast not send that one your way? No.
- [26:47]
Wojnarowski
No.
- [26:48]
Justin Varier
Okay.
- [26:48]
Wojnarowski
They didn't send that tweet.
- [26:51]
Justin Varier
I was plugged in this. Well, if you were a good teammate.
- [26:55]
Rob Mahoney
You'D be sending it to us.
- [26:56]
Wojnarowski
Is that like a Scantron?
- [26:59]
Rob Mahoney
Like, what's the location?
- [27:01]
Justin Varier
I think it was like red, white. It was like, should I go to the Rockets or another team with those colors? Sort of things really. Tweet, tweet and then a delete. I'm just saying. I'm just throwing it out there.
- [27:12]
Wojnarowski
Tweeted that. Should I go to the Rockets?
- [27:16]
Justin Varier
I don't know. We'll see. I'm just throwing out possibilities because another guy who's kind of in the same mix there, Kevin Durant, who would be my answer to this question, has to be feeling 30 different types of ways here because on the one hand, the team sucks and they have been playing awful of late. And then they try to get Jimmy to save the sinking ship. They can't do that because the guy that they also brought in in order to help save the sinking ship is blocking every trade because nobody wants his contract. And then he's getting thrown into trade. I don't know what happened where Kevin Durant went from let's bring this guy in to let's get rid of Kevin Durant. Like, maybe he was just being a dick behind the scenes, but I can't imagine this rest of the season is going to go well. And I have to imagine by the offseason he's playing for.
- [28:03]
Wojnarowski
Somewhere in my phone is telling me that it's February 7th, 20.
- [28:10]
Justin Varier
24.
- [28:12]
Rob Mahoney
25.
- [28:13]
Wojnarowski
Yeah, 25. Excuse me. Sorry. That makes it even worse. That means I've been potting with Justin Varian for damn near four years and this man is somehow surprised that a situation that KD is a part of has fallen apart.
- [28:29]
Logan Murdoch
You're really.
- [28:29]
Justin Varier
You're really on one today, man. You brought it and I appreciate it. This 38 year old Woz is just on another level, grizzled.
- [28:36]
Wojnarowski
I'm seasoned. How could you be surprised?
- [28:41]
Justin Varier
That's true.
- [28:42]
Wojnarowski
I log on to ESPN.com yesterday./NBA. I'm on the./ NBA. I'm on the side scroll. I'm on the side scroll. It says report. The situation in Phoenix has turned toxic. Where have I heard that before? When KD was on a team on a 66 win pace and they're in freaking huddles during games and he's grabbing the net while his team huddles to try to figure out how to win a game. That's his last year in Golden State. He gets to Brooklyn. Do we need to talk about what happened in Brooklyn? Magic Carpet, where the guy who he chose as his co star became a damn near eugenicist. Okay, this is KD we're talking about. Where James Harden had to be the guy. The adult in the room was like, I'll give Kyrie the jab my goddamn self. How the hell is our second best player not committed and PAC committed over something like KD presided over that. Ok. Didn't lift a finger to help or fix anything. Now he's in Phoenix. The situation has become toxic. Can't believe that. Can't believe the KD as your best player, your leader, your focal point. Can't believe that went bad. I told y'all, been telling y'all this. KD want to show up, take mid range jumpers and go home.
- [30:17]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [30:17]
Wojnarowski
He don't want to do a single other thing.
- [30:19]
Rob Mahoney
Here's my question about that was you to me are the king of work life balance. You have a very healthy separation between what is your problem and what is not your problem. And I would say Kevin Durant does too, in a way. He is not a LeBron level operator. Fingers on the scales, wanting input and decisions. He's very much a that is not my problem kind of superstar.
- [30:42]
Wojnarowski
Rob, I can't believe you. I can't believe you just did that. Okay, so let's just say right behind the scenes, Varier and Ben Cruz was having problems. You think I wouldn't intervene?
- [30:58]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know.
- [31:00]
Wojnarowski
You really think I'd be like, it's not my job to make it so that Ben Cruz and Verrier have a good work relationship. You think I would just. You think I would just put my feet up and be like, hopefully that take care of itself? I would intervene.
- [31:14]
Justin Varier
Woz would intervene.
- [31:16]
Rob Mahoney
But Kevin Durant would not.
- [31:18]
Justin Varier
Woz would, on this podcast, wise would intervene.
- [31:22]
Rob Mahoney
You're throwing me under the bus.
- [31:25]
Wojnarowski
I would intervene because I care about the results of what we're doing up here. If I thought Something wasn't working in the way that it needs to work, I would lift a finger. Okay, that's not your boy. I'mma show up, take 18 footers. I'mma go home and smoke hookah.
- [31:44]
Justin Varier
A lot of hookah going around the NBA these days.
- [31:47]
Rob Mahoney
That's true.
- [31:47]
Wojnarowski
No kidding.
- [31:49]
Justin Varier
I just. Yeah, it's tough because I agree with Woz, and it hasn't matched Kevin Durant's motivations and how he's plotted out the back end of his career because he tried to do the LeBron thing without all of the, like, computing power and the necessary relationship building. And honestly, the sharp eye for picking the right teammates that LeBron has shown, and perhaps shown most recently with Luka Doncic, that seems like a marriage that he's quite fond of. That just shocked him that he was on his team at dinner one day, and now he's just talking about how much he can't wait to play with him and all this other stuff. But that's been Durant's problem. He's an amazing basketball player. I just don't think he gets the business side of things. But has tried to comport himself as if he does and has tried to wield his power, tried to follow in LeBron's footsteps. Just hasn't worked as well.
- [32:42]
Wojnarowski
Did you guys watch the trailer for Court of Gold?
- [32:45]
Rob Mahoney
No. What is that? Is that the Olympic doc?
- [32:47]
Justin Varier
Yeah, the Team USA one. Yes, yes.
- [32:49]
Wojnarowski
Where KD says, yeah, I gotta have all that chemistry, but how you gonna guard Steph? It's a great quote, but it's an insight into the mind of KD and underrating of this sort of cosmic stuff, this intangible stuff that. Yeah, I get it. If you score 30 every night. I've never been a 30 at night scorer. If I was one of, I could probably see myself as somebody who thinks that's all that matters. I can't pretend that I know what it's like to be kd, but I think that's an insight into the mind of a certain type of basketball attitude. This idea that nothing else matters except for what you do on that court. And people could make all of the legem jokes and LeBron as, like, this sort of diva and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. LeBron is organizing team dinners. LeBron is galvanizing a group, making them feel like they're part of a whole. KD don't do that.
- [33:51]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I do think being the best player on a team also means being the leader, and it just doesn't jive with a lot of different players. LeBron has done both in spades. Honestly. It's a nice segue into Trey Young here, who finds himself in a weird situation. The Hawks didn't necessarily bottom out. They just kind of like rejiggered the same types of players that they have. So they end up with carousel vert niang back in the bosom of of Quinn Snyder, Terrence Man, Bones Highland, some swaps a bunch of seconds. So I don't know if they're necessarily worst, Rob, but I can't say that they're better and they're different in ways that I think would suggest the Young that they're probably not thinking about his timeline.
- [34:39]
Rob Mahoney
Probably not. I think once Jalen Johnson got hurt, a lot changed for this Atlanta Hawks season. And it is, it's put it on the rails in a way that may surprise even us as maybe the foremost Jalen Johnson boosters. But they haven't been good enough to really be competitive. They're still young enough that they have a really long time horizon around some of their most interesting young players. And that's what the future of the Hawks are is going to be based on. My issue is like the best way I can read specifically the DeAndre Hunter portion of this deal is that you are selling probably pretty high on a player who has never been this good before and you're, you're trading him away when he's finally hitting his stride, finally hitting the peak of his efficiency, his scoring prowess. Still a, you know, pretty re like at least relevant defender, not a stopper by any means, but a guy who can be in the mix and you're trading him at the peak of his value. That's great. But if you're doing that, why are you trading Bogdan Bogdanovich at the lowest point of his value when he's having a terrible season? And so there is a, a value proposition happening with these two deals in conjunction that I don't understand. Like, what is the urgency in Atlanta to clear the decks when nothing that you're bringing in is in itself super compelling that would make you trade Bogdan Bogdanovich or DeAndre Hunter. And so you've just artificially created this pressure, I guess, to trade away two of your better players for no real benefit or reason at all, when you don't even have control of your first round pick at the same time?
- [36:12]
Wojnarowski
Like, why should the Hawks be operating as if they need to appease Trey Young because he once beat Julius Randle, led Knicks and ended Ben Simmons's career? Like I, I Don't know why that warrants some level of devotion by a franchise like Trae Young. Sorry, like, you're just another guy here. Yes, you're our highest paid guy. You're our best guy. But, like, why do we need to kowtow towards maximizing the Trae Young prime?
- [36:47]
Justin Varier
Um, I agree.
- [36:48]
Wojnarowski
I'm sorry. They made a big deal in bringing baby boy Murray up there. That was an all in on Trae Young move. It didn't work out in any sense of the word. Probably was the wrong move, but, like, they've done that already, and I think they should be moving in the direction of doing something different. And if Trae Young doesn't like it, then tough shit, bro. Like, could you imagine a world where somebody was like, demonic Sabonis doesn't like it, the King shouldn't do it. Like, what? Yeah, you're our best player, but who cares? Like, why should we gear everything we're doing towards your likes or dislikes? I think Trae Young, like, yeah, I like the player that he was this season, or he's been. Excuse me. This season. Um, I think it shows a willingness to be adaptable to a situation that I think will serve him in his next destination. Because maybe I'm crazy. I don't think Trae Young's going to retire as a Hawk. At the same time, I don't know why the Hawks should be operating as if, like, we got the. I get it, y'all traded him for Luka Doncic, but he's not a franchise player, guys, and there's no reason to pretend that he is.
- [38:08]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I just assumed when they made the Hunter deal that they were just collecting assets to kind of supplement what they lost in the Murray trade because they are out their next three picks. They have a swap in the middle there, so they will have one of those picks. But basically the spurs control their next three drafts. And so I was like, oh, they're. They're just. They're doing the right thing and getting assets back rather than playing for a worse pick, just despite the spurs. And I was like, oh, that makes some sense. But then they made the bogey trade, who, as Rob mentioned, like, has been playing well. So, okay, I thought that was a money dump. But then they took back Terrence Mann, who I think makes about the same for longer, and so it just complicated things. So maybe they just see something in Terrence Mann, but then, like, he plays pretty similar to Dyson Daniels, but I don't know.
- [38:55]
Rob Mahoney
It sounds very complimentary to Terence Mann.
- [38:58]
Justin Varier
Yeah. Not. Not as good, but certainly in the. In the mold.
- [39:02]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [39:02]
Wojnarowski
They don't see something. I think we've seen all we're ever gonna see out of Terrence. Like, he is the player who he is.
- [39:11]
Rob Mahoney
He never clicked. He never took off.
- [39:13]
Wojnarowski
And I like him. And I was actually in the building for that Utah game in the playoffs where he just could not miss a three. And he is a dynamite locker room guy. Nobody who's ever been around Terrence Mann has a single bad thing to say. I think he's the kind of guy, like, I think any team should want Terrence Mann there, and I think he would earn minutes on pretty much any team in the league. But, like, they're not taking like a flyer, like, oh, this might take off.
- [39:42]
Rob Mahoney
No, he's just a guy.
- [39:43]
Wojnarowski
He's just a guy.
- [39:44]
Rob Mahoney
Which is perfectly fine.
- [39:46]
Justin Varier
He's the man.
- [39:47]
Rob Mahoney
He is the man. Was invoking Sabonis in this inspired me to bring forth another down bad nominee, Justin. I don't know if you guys have seen the latest from Malik Monk, who, if you may remember, took a pay cut to go play with his pal Dear and Fox in Sacramento. Apparently didn't get a lot of courtesy from Dear and Fox on his way out as far as, like, what was happening. The fact that you're just going to bolt in the night on this thing, understandably a bit soured by the experience. I just have to say Malik Monk, a player we love, a presence who we appreciate in the NBA, that just kind of sucks. It really does suck.
- [40:24]
Justin Varier
He has gotten to dribble more like he does more on that team and is bigger part of that team now, probably as a result of Fox going away. But yeah, he also got locked up by the mighty Portland trailblazers, winners of 10 of the past 11. Just enough ways.
- [40:38]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [40:41]
Justin Varier
Since we're talking around the west, why don't we. When we talk about the Jimmy Butler trade, which we haven't had a chance to get into here, number three I have on the docket is, does Jimmy Butler really change the Western playoff pictures? Because from my side of things, I love the deal. I love it in part because they didn't give up a ton in order to get Jimmy. I think Wiggins has been good for them and has been stable for them in ways that I think go unappreciated. Jimmy is obviously a better version of that when he is locked in. And I think the fact that he's only played five games since December 20th probably helps keep the Jimmy you need on ice for long Enough to make this next little run into the playoffs. So I like it. But then they also have the powder to go make something else happen in the offseason. Because right now what we'll see is like Jimmy passing off to Steph, the defense collapse, and him passing it off to Quinton Post in the corner just for the game winning three. And I just don't like that. So my perspective is I don't necessarily think this changes much for Golden State. If anything, I'm not necessarily even projecting them into the playing race. Where do you guys stand on both the warriors and just like the entire bottom of the west here?
- [41:45]
Rob Mahoney
Wait, so you don't think it'll change the play in race at all with the Warriors?
- [41:50]
Justin Varier
I don't. I don't necessarily think Jimmy Butler's going.
- [41:52]
Wojnarowski
To make a difference.
- [41:54]
Justin Varier
I think he'll make some difference, but not enough to get them in.
- [41:57]
Wojnarowski
Let me ask you something. Pose it a different way. Do you think 2023 was a fluke or do you think Jimmy Butler's that good? That's what, to me, that's the ultimate question of the Jimmy trade. Do you think that was bullshit or do you think that's who this guy is?
- [42:15]
Justin Varier
I think it's who he is, but I think it's lost the time that he was hurt practically from the second round on and he wasn't the same player after the fact. So I think he could hit those heights. I don't know how often he could hit those heights again. And the warriors need to be nails for 30 straight games here because they're one game under.500. They're currently tied for 10th with the Kings. They're in the 11th, technically, just because it's tiebreakers. So they have a lot of work to do. They basically have to play what, like 600 ball rest of the way maybe at worst.
- [42:48]
Wojnarowski
I think Jimmy Butler has been underrated. He's been under in terms of like people's perception of the level of player that he is his whole career. And I think it's happening again. And I think again it's easy or it's probably right to look at the last three months in Miami and be like, that guy who we've seen on the floor is not going to change your life. I just happen to think that, like Jimmy Butler motivated playing with Steph Curry. I think it's just a new equation, man. And I can't wait to see what they put on the floor. And I understand why people, you know, people who I respect can be down on this deal because the fit is not seamless. Like it's an awkward fit when you think about him and Draymond on the floor. But in 2023, when, you know, Duncan Robinson learned how to dribble and they were doing all of this off ball stuff, Golden State esque stuff, leveraging three point line action, right? Like you have to worry about what's happening out on the perimeter. And then when you're not super consumed by that, Jimmy Butler is killing you in the paint. He is getting to the line. He's getting buckets at the cup like he's killing you. I think that can very easily be repeated. I think Draymond has perfected the non entity aspect offensively of his game in the sense that he's always a threat to screen for Steph.
- [44:34]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, the handoff stuff is always really sharp.
- [44:37]
Wojnarowski
He's the problem, right? He's always making himself useful. In terms of springing Steph Curry and Jimmy Butler operating around the edges of what Steph brings to the table, I, I just think people are, let's just say Jimmy Butler's 85% of the guy from 2023. That is a killer and that's a difference maker. And I think the warriors, man, I think the warriors made a killer deal.
- [45:04]
Rob Mahoney
And it's better than Andrew Wiggins too, which is the most meaningful comparison here. I think this does not change anything really in terms of the title race, right? The warriors are so far back in the standings and just in quality, qualitative value of what they put on the floor. I don't think Jimmy Butler is really going to change who wins the NBA title, but it changes two things that I think are important. One, the playing race is getting very feisty, very competitive, and even a Steph Curry team is not going to walk into it, as evidenced by the fact that as we're recording, Golden State is basically tied for 10th, right on the edge of not even making the play in to begin with. So getting any kind of momentum, any kind of help to edge out the Kings or the Suns or the Mavs or the Clippers or the spurs right behind them or Justin's Blazers who are storming up the ranks, any of that is helpful. So that kind of moving the needle is helpful. And maybe most importantly of all, you have made Steph Curry's job easier and you've done him an actual service by getting a player of value when you've been sitting on your hands for now, effectively years and not doing that. So making a Steph Curry team better at this stage in his career and making the warriors even more competitive team, even if it's not going to guarantee them a playoff spot, that's a swing you should take. Even if Jimmy Butler does come with his questions, even if the fit stuff has to be navigated exactly as you said, was not just with Draymond and Jimmy, but like Jonathan Kaminga is going to be in that mix too. As far as like, how do you play this combination of guys together and in what alignments. Steve Kerr is going to have his hands full with that kind of thing. But you absolutely take this kind of opportunity when it's presented to you, particularly at this price.
- [46:42]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I think you owed it to Steph to do something. And if you're only just making him happy, if you're lifting his spirits for a couple weeks here, that's good enough. Because like I said, they just didn't go out and do the follow up. Nicola Vucevic, let's just make a go of this right now. That wasn't going to happen this year. At best, they're probably going to make the first round of the playoffs. The West's top half is good enough that like, maybe they'll be competitive, maybe they'll be sprightly, but that's probably it. And so I like what they did. I don't know if it means much for this season, but going forward I feel better about them. We're already talking about the west, so let's go to my next question here, which is about the Los Angeles Lakers. I don't know if you guys have talked about them at all this week. Here's my thing. The Mark Williams move has been really interesting. I find it a little curious in some aspects. I'm wondering as I have down here, did the Lakers fumble the follow up move? Because on the one hand, while I like Williams big target, I've watched too many Hornets games to not like feel good about this guy. Like good hands, good offensive player. But I think as has been well documented at this point, not a great defensive player. Not just a plug and play guys. 23 years old, has played only 85 games in part because he's had some pretty significant injuries. Only played 40% of his games because of a back injury and then a foot and the Hornets gave that guy up and so was. I'm kind of wondering, like I see it, Luka needs a lob target, but I almost wonder if they kind of shot themselves in the foot because that was their major bullet. To add something before Luka hits free agency Two years from now.
- [48:18]
Wojnarowski
I think it's definitely weird that Charlotte gave this guy up after he played the best ball of his life for them, that they were just like, yeah, sign me up for the Lakers 20, 30, 31 pick, get this guy out of here. And Laker fans, Dalton Connect is not a person. Nobody around the league cares about Dalton Connect. Nobody was like, oh, we really are dying to get our hands on this prospect.
- [48:45]
Rob Mahoney
I want to say Dalton Connect, if you're listening, you are a. And I acknowledge your personhood. Dalton Connect.
- [48:52]
Justin Varier
We see you, Dalton.
- [48:54]
Wojnarowski
This is about the pick that they gave up, right? And Charlotte being willing to move off of this guy after having him in their building for three years or going on three years, I think speaks something like. It says something about this deal for me. If he can become a good defensive player, not great, but like good at defense, then all this was worth it. But if he stays the defender that he's been, I just don't think you need offense first players when you have Luka Doncic. That's what we've learned. When you got Luka, surround him with dogs on defense, Kyrie dispell him, which I don't even think is necessary. I think the Kyrie thing ended up working out, but I don't think it's actually necessary that you have a Kyrie level, you know, playmaker. But like, surround him with dogs that are going to defend Luka is going to make them into better offensive players than they otherwise would be. I think Mark Williams is the other direction in that, and I don't see why you would go more offense than defense to pair with Luka long term.
- [50:04]
Rob Mahoney
I think it is because of that defensive potential that we're sort of circling around this idea that as Mark Williams gets healthier, he's huge, he's mobile, he's a. He's such a vertical presence on offense. You could see how that might translate if he can get his timing down with the verticality. He just needs actual time on an NBA court and he has not had a lot of it yet. And so putting him out there, not just with Luka, but with guys like LeBron, you know, like with a coaching staff that can nurture him a little bit. And most importantly, in a competitive environment in which good defense is going to be asked of him, I think can facilitate that sort of development. But there's no way around the fact that the Lakers invested the most prominent trade chips they had as far as not breaking up core parts of their team. We're going to have An Austin Reeves conversation at many points, I imagine, over the next couple years, as to whether, you know, the Lakers could use this or that instead of a player like Austin Reeves, who is quite good offensively and can give Luca some relief, not in a Kyrie way, but in some kind of way. I think where I would disagree with you a little bit was is the Mavs tried the surround Luca with dog strategy absent a player like Kyrie. And it's good, but you run hard. When you run into the wall, you run hard into the wall. And so you do. You do want playmaking, but Mark Williams is not providing you playmaking. He is just the lob threat, just the finisher, just the potential rebounder.
- [51:21]
Wojnarowski
Jalen Brunson would have been a good enough playmaker without Kyrie just saying Jalen.
- [51:26]
Rob Mahoney
Brunson, you know, can you imagine if a team had both Jalen Brunson and Luka Doncic? That's crazy.
- [51:30]
Justin Varier
And Porzingis.
- [51:31]
Rob Mahoney
I know.
- [51:32]
Wojnarowski
That would have been nuts.
- [51:33]
Justin Varier
I.
- [51:34]
Wojnarowski
That would be a sick ass.
- [51:37]
Justin Varier
I know, I know. Well, I think it's the. The Williams move is fascinating for a lot of reasons, but I also think it indicates probably what the Lakers are thinking long term with Luca. I think it's one of two things. They either think they need to convince him to stay, and there are quotes both from Polinka directly, but also from David Miniman just based on conversations before that that, like, they talked to Luca and he was like, I would love to play with a lob threat. That would be nice for me. And then blink, it goes out, gets him one within like a day or two at that point. So that seems curious.
- [52:07]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, the parentheses there are not Jackson Hayes.
- [52:11]
Justin Varier
Exactly. The other part of this is that maybe they think that they're ready to win now. And recent results without. Well, LeBron is playing like he's 27 years old at this point. He is like, he is completely revealed. If we're talking about Jimmy Butler adding a pep into Steph Step. Like, look at LeBron right now.
- [52:31]
Wojnarowski
Last Night Live, when he made the three straight three pointers.
- [52:34]
Rob Mahoney
Crazy.
- [52:35]
Justin Varier
Excuse me. I was watching Blazers Kings live in Portland. I was at the real, real super.
- [52:39]
Rob Mahoney
Bowl, the Valentino Bowl.
- [52:42]
Justin Varier
I saw the game before that. Yeah, there he. He is loving things. And they also, I will mention, have a nice little cushion because they played so well before they made this blockbuster trade. Like, they're two and a half games up on the Wolves, who are in sixth. They're up right now four and a half games on the Dallas Mavericks. Just because the Mavs had to play through so many injuries, including with Luca, before this happened. And so, I don't know, I. I'm mixed on the Lakers. I think they can be awesome offensively and the fact that, like, they are so good there and have this cushion, they'll get to the playoffs and Luke and LeBron can probably do anything. On the other hand, like, there's still a lot to figure out here on the fly. Defensively, they're going to be, I think, pretty dog shit. They do have to outgun teams, and.
- [53:26]
Wojnarowski
So, I don't know, this poor defensive outfit, they're going to be taping and piecing together the facade of an actual defense the entire rest of the season. If you start LeBron, Luka and Austin Reaves, that's just. And Mark Williams, the defender that he's been, not that. Not that he's going to be. Maybe he's going to turn into a bigger, better guy, but that he's been those four guys, that does not a good defensive lineup make. However, on the other end, good luck trying to stop a motivated Luka Doncic rejuvenated LeBron James that, like, they are going to be held on offense. It's just. Defense is just looking. It's looking shaky at the moment, and.
- [54:17]
Rob Mahoney
I think it's okay with a team that's had this sort of dramatic reconstruction in the matter of a couple days to want to wait and see a little bit and to be. To be cautiously optimistic about what they could be this season. You're right, Justin, that they, like, they have some real inroads in the standings. They could make to get as far as, like, third place in the west without a ton of heavy lifting. If any of this clicks into place, and frankly, probably just from getting Luka Doncic on the floor is going to give them a pretty decent shot to do that. I think defensively they're going to have problems. We're not going to look at this remaining stretch of regular season games and see an inspiring defensive performance. I would find that very unlikely. But in a playoff series, I think LeBron can still turn it up. Defensively, we have seen that Luka, when very motivated, can at least be fine.
- [55:02]
Wojnarowski
Is he going to straighten his calf in the process?
- [55:04]
Rob Mahoney
He might. He might strain his calf in the process, but I suspect he will be quite motivated to prove that he is not a poor defender. And we're going to see what Mark Williams has when he's surrounded by at least a more veteran group. And we're going to See certainly what Dorian Finney Smith and Jared Vanderbilt and the guys who are going to be asked to do a ton of heavy lifting on defense can really shoulder because those are even for for all of their defensive talents. Not ideal point of attack.
- [55:27]
Wojnarowski
Smith is 33 years old, y'all.
- [55:29]
Rob Mahoney
He is indeed 33 years old and he's like a good contributor to a team concept. But he is not a stopper.
- [55:34]
Justin Varier
Is he 33? 31.
- [55:37]
Wojnarowski
He's 31.
- [55:40]
Rob Mahoney
Let's get the fact check. I believed it though, honestly.
- [55:45]
Justin Varier
I do think it shines a light on some of the moves that the Lakers had made up to this point where it's like, hey, let's see where Jared Vanderbilt is. Like if he's going to add defensive heft here, now's the time to do it. If Gabe Vincent is going to be a credible rotation player who brings that element to the team, let's see it now. I'll be honest here just with my guys, I'll be frank. I was toying with the idea that the Mavs would finish above the Lakers over the second half of the season and making that a bet. Waz is doing a very vulgar motion right now. If you're on YouTube, you were privy.
- [56:18]
Rob Mahoney
To the Justin Barrier double down is unbelievable.
- [56:23]
Justin Varier
Well, the problem is the standings like they're way far back here, but I.
- [56:28]
Rob Mahoney
Will Problem is the basketball.
- [56:29]
Wojnarowski
That's problem is the rosters.
- [56:31]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I don't, I don't think the Mavs are going to be bad. I think there's a world they're not.
- [56:36]
Wojnarowski
Going to be bad.
- [56:37]
Justin Varier
I think they're going to be quite good. I just don't know what it will be down the road there. But this season, you know, seems fine. I don't really understand the Caleb Martin trade and now he's hurt, which is weird. The follow up moves are bad and AD isn't playing right away and so that's not helping. PJ Washington isn't playing.
- [56:55]
Rob Mahoney
They did beat Boston.
- [56:58]
Wojnarowski
Yeah Edwards, just imagine when AD Comes.
- [57:01]
Rob Mahoney
Back, it's not a total disaster there. And no. Yes.
- [57:04]
Wojnarowski
Hell no.
- [57:05]
Rob Mahoney
All of the criticisms for the Mavs by and large are more future looking, are more about the structure of your team and the way, the way where it's headed. That changes when you lose Luka Doncic and replace him with Anthony Davis. It's still a good roster. It's still the bones of a roster that just went to the finals and you're adding another of the best players in the world. It's just a player who plays completely differently. And I think the thing we may be maybe like glossing over, even given all the Mavs experience playing without Luka this season, they haven't come up with some miraculous offensive concepts to compensate for that. It just kind of works. Or it doesn't. Depending on jump shots falling, depending on if Kyrie can create separation, depending on if you're getting the good Spencer Dinwiddie game or not. They're still trying to figure that stuff out. And it's going to get easier when you have Anthony Davis in there getting a ton of stops and finishing plays with force and giving you like a more versatile frontline presence than what they have. But it's not going to solve all those issues. And so for everything that the Lakers have to figure out, the Mavs have an awful lot to figure out too, as far as this portion of the regular season and like getting into the playoffs in one piece.
- [58:08]
Justin Varier
Yep, I agree with that. What about the title race? That's what I have right down here as the last question. Talked all about the teams kind of vying for this. Do you think anything that happened at the deadline changes how you guys look at the overall title race?
- [58:24]
Wojnarowski
Well, I picked the Mavs to not only get to back to the finals, but to win it before the season.
- [58:29]
Justin Varier
I forgot about that.
- [58:30]
Wojnarowski
I didn't pick that because I thought they were trading for Anthony Davis, I'll tell you that much. So, yeah, I think the west has definitely become. I think the Mavs with Luka are a much better team than the Lakers are right now with Luka. I just think that's true. And so OKC's problems have definitely been diminished in my estimation in terms of their pursuit of getting to the Western Conference finals, which very and Rob fail to remember. These guys didn't get out the second round last year. They got to make it to the damn conference finals. But I think the Lucatrade makes it easier. I just do.
- [59:12]
Rob Mahoney
And not just the, not just the Luca trade, but Memphis didn't add anybody. The Nuggets didn't add anybody. The Rockets didn't trade young players for a veteran, a Kevin Durant type who's going to change their prospects now.
- [59:23]
Wojnarowski
Although Gigi Jackson. Gigi's good. In addition to this season, they've been.
- [59:28]
Rob Mahoney
Slowly bringing guys back in a way that is meaningful. But yeah, all of the other potential contenders in the west did not add players who are going to make them more viable this season.
- [59:39]
Justin Varier
Yeah, and the Thunder got Daniel Tice. So they did. That'll change things I don't know if he stayed.
- [59:43]
Wojnarowski
Thunder, I think, are in a much stronger position now than they were a week ago.
- [59:48]
Rob Mahoney
Getting Chad Holmgren back.
- [59:49]
Justin Varier
Huge night.
- [59:51]
Rob Mahoney
Huge. Huge.
- [59:52]
Justin Varier
Came out of nowhere. So, yeah, the Thunder are looking pretty good.
- [59:55]
Wojnarowski
But what about full court? Fitz alum, my guy, my brother.
- [60:00]
Justin Varier
That's how we knew he was going to be somebody. What about in the east though? Because the best team in the conference did add somebody. They got DeAndre Hunter in their movie. And I, I like that. Do you guys think about that differently? Especially in light of the Celtics playing practically full strength and losing to the Mavs last night in pretty ugly fashion yet again?
- [60:21]
Wojnarowski
See, this is the thing. The Celtics played the Cavaliers. They were not a DeAndre hunter away from making that a more serious matchup. They smoked these guys. They were in control of that game the entire time. They just toyed with them the whole game. They showed themselves to be in a class, a different class from the Cleveland Cavaliers. And so to me, the Celtics are still the guys to be. I think DeAndre Hunter, because he's 68 and not 63 like the guy he was traded for. Very physical guy. I've personally felt like his defensive, you know, know how or ability has always been more theoretical, it's overstated for sure than what he's actually put on the floor. But I understand the need to bring in a 68 guy who can move and can also make a shot. When you, you're facing down Boston, like that's an obvious thing that you need to do, right? I want to see it on the floor. Cause that guy is a ball stopping ass, ball hogging ass person. That's been his M.O. his whole career.
- [61:30]
Rob Mahoney
At least he's better at it. When he does stop it, you know, he's. He's making shots at such a high level that you can't complain about it too much. And this has been good DeAndre Hunter basketball. And from that perspective, this is not a move that's going to bite the Cavs by any stretch. I just don't think to. To align with Waz here that it really changes things all that much. It might help them slightly in the Boston matchup and maybe that's enough given, given where the Cavs are, you don't want to do anything dramatic. You don't want to break a formula that's been working so well for you, at least in the regular season so far. And so you make a move like this, that's a little bit matchup dependent, that's a little bit tailored specific to your matchup with Boston and trying to make that more competitive and that more viable and that more survivable for the guards and wings we're talking about for Cleveland. So from that perspective, it's all well and good. I'm still kind of disappointed the Knicks didn't do anything other than trade away Jericho Sims.
- [62:21]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I guess they're just banking on.
- [62:23]
Wojnarowski
They're banking on. They're banking on the health of Mitchell Robinson, which seems fucking insane. And he was supposed to be back in January. That was the original diagnosis. Still isn't back, but he's been cleared for full contact. And I would assume this prolonged rehab is with an eye towards. We need this guy in the postseason to play minutes. It's just this guy has been unreliable health wise.
- [62:50]
Rob Mahoney
Well, not just health wise. Win was, well, I guess partially health wise, but not just availability. I think there's a larger issue of when was the last time Mitchell Robinson looked like Mitchell Robinson? And it's been longer than him just being out.
- [63:02]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I still like the Knicks in this derby, but I have to say I love what the Cavs did. Seeing the opportunity to go and make this year their year and getting a guy, as Rob said, who will play well or seems to match up well in a Celtics series. Like Hunter has his flaws. He hasn't been good practically until this season. So there is a little bit of like, when is that record going to stop there? But he is shooting the hell out of the ball, high volume, scoring the hell out of the ball. I think he's had 19 points per game off the bench, was kind of like one of the front runners sneakily for six man of the year. And just like, he's a strong, physical dude. I think that's what you need in those matchups when, especially if you wanted to throw out a small ball lineup, if you got into that situation where Jared Allen couldn't play in crunch time, like, he's the type of guy who could easily flash to the fore and you can make it work there, especially with core and some of those other guys that they have in the mix. And so I don't think it changes my outlook. But I will say I'm increasingly getting more suspicious of the Celtics because we're at the point where it really has to be a flip switch situation. They're on paper, they're great. I think that it could work.
- [64:08]
Wojnarowski
You just talked me into switch against Cleveland this week, y'all.
- [64:13]
Justin Varier
Yeah, but they just like, they lay down practically every other game and just like, I need like, two weeks.
- [64:19]
Rob Mahoney
That was bad. Yeah.
- [64:20]
Justin Varier
And even the other game, I feel like Jason Tatum has had to save them more often than he hasn't, which is, I guess, good, because, you know that he is getting the confidence in doing so, and he's stepping into a role that he probably hadn't been before for them, but it's just. It's just. Hasn't been great. I just want two weeks. I want two weeks where they're just a buzz saw like they were going into last year. And otherwise, by the way, if you want to.
- [64:43]
Wojnarowski
If you wanted to throw some cold water on the Celtics, you know, sort of demolition of the Cavs the other day, Derrick White made about seven of the craziest shots that I might have ever seen in my life. And, like, literally, the guy was making impossible shots. And so if you're the Cavs, you know, if you're Kenny Atkinson, who, at halftime, he was like, look, these guys are making some hard shots right now. You can take that, like, as solace. Like, all right, man, we made them take hard shots. I think our defense is there. We need to be better about how we attack them. But, like, we're right there. Okay. You could take that as the takeaway. I don't. I take. My takeaway was the Celtics are nightmare matchup. The thing that's made the Cavs offense very special this year, the Celtics take it away because they're switching everything and aren't scrambling against them. And it's like, all right, Garland. Like, do something. All right, Mitchell, do something. But if they wanted to, they could be positive about that outcome the other night.
- [65:52]
Justin Varier
Yeah. All right, let's wrap it there. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back, regular schedule next week. So that means Monday. That means Thursday. We'll talk to you then.