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The Ringer NBA Show
The Celtics’ Spoiler Potential, CP3’s L.A. Exit, Giannis Suitors, and More, With Chris Ryan
01:08:01
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
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B
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Ferrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney. No Kyle this week so we brought in the only guy who grinds more NBA tape. That's Chris Ryan. That's right buddy.
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C
Yeah, mostly college for me now. I've been too busy watching Cameron Boozer.
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B
You do pick a college guy every year as like your guy that you.
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C
Want to try Benedict Mah famously I think you know the the jury still happens.
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B
Have you. So you haven't done any early scouting? Not.
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C
I'm always looking for the next cleanthony early. That's that's my my my draft analysis the lens in which I look for the ncaa.
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A
Speaking of, I don't think we even shouted out that cleanthony early somehow made it into a Jeopardy Clue on this podcast which just huge news in our part of the world.
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B
It was a whole category based off of yes, that's oh was he. He did like the little video.
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A
I believe so.
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B
That's incredible. What a what a legend. The Ringer NBA show is presented by FanDuel. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live in your way so you could build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get started. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.
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D
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move fast and Amazon prime keeps you in control with fast and free delivery. We've all been there. Family plans are fluid. Somebody's not coming. Suddenly they are coming and you're excited about it. You want to get them a gift so you Amazon prime line that up with their interests. And it's easy to do because Amazon has everything. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. Need that last minute gift or holiday essential? It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now we.
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B
Have to talk about a legend at the top of this podcast. We're going to get into a whole another bit. We're going to do name that take again, despite all evidence to the contrary, but figure Chris might be able to help us out with that one. But before we recorded this podcast, Chris Paul got sent home. And I guess the question is forever.
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A
I don't know.
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B
So basically the way this worked out was late last night at 2:40am he Instagrams that he is being sent home, added a little piece emoji on top of there, and then we got the news shortly after that that the Clippers just straight up released him. Yeah, I guess Chris, as a fellow guy who, who like went to LA and made his career point guard.
- [02:57]
C
Is that what you're trying to say?
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B
Yeah, exactly. How do you feel about this news?
- [03:00]
C
First and foremost, very strange story. I mean, obviously I think reporting will bear out like what actually happened and whether this was a locker room situation or a financial situation or what like I was trying to piece together. He apparently put up like a kind of sentimental post a couple of weeks ago and then since then had not put spoken to the media.
- [03:19]
He seems like a strange scapegoat for whatever is wrong with the Clippers this year. But I can also imagine, let's just say that this is a zombie Clippers year and they're kind of like going through the motions. This was also supposed to be his farewell and perhaps he wanted to go out on a higher note than this. But yeah, very, very strange story. And it's never, never boring in Englewood.
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A
Yeah, maybe we're going to hear the behind the scenes stuff and we're going to find out he was throwing soup at the practice facility and deserved to be sent home. But like, based on what we know now, this is really bizarre and just like bush league treatment for one of the greatest players of all time. That, that is the part that I think is really sticking with people is the whole point was him coming back for one last ride with the Clippers. And yes, things are going disastrously. We can talk about all the ways that's happening if you want, but why, why is Chris Paul, the guy who's being sent home, like Lawrence Frank is putting out this statement that like, we're not blaming Chris Paul for how badly we're playing. I don't see anybody else being sent home here. So like, what is it? What exactly is happening?
- [04:23]
B
Ironically enough, Chris Paul's farewell tour might have been the only positive piece of PR that they would get this entire season, considering the way it started in preseason and the way it's kind of unfolded since. Maybe outside of like multiple Kobe's that you've never heard of before, getting NBA minutes for this team, but there really wasn't much to latch onto, so I'm surprised they wouldn't even just like allow him to sit on the bench because what are their means for getting any quality rotation minutes outside of that? They could just dig through the crates of, of 10 days and whatnot. But like, can't you just have Chris hang around and at the very least like be an ambassador for the team? That's why it's so weird to me.
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C
Well, it's one of the first stops on his sort of the twilight of his career where he hasn't kind of improved the team. Right. Like, I mean, I think that in Phoenix and Oklahoma City, I think he was instrumental in sort of being a mentor to Shay and it's strange that he is ending his career in a much different way than the last few stops. That being said, he has not been retained by several of his last few teams and maybe he just has sharp elbows, I don't really know. But I agree with you guys. Like, it doesn't seem like Chris Paul is the problem here.
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A
Yeah. And if lots of things are going poorly and they are going poorly, Chris Paul isn't necessarily the voice you want around. Like, he's great at taking teams that are in the middle, as you said, Chris, and like getting them organized, getting them on point, helping young players along. If you're 5 and 16 and Chris Paul is playing 15 minutes a game and like he, he is not going to stop talking, he's not going to stop being in guy's ear, I can see how that would be grading. I just don't see how it would be grading to the point of sending an all time point guard home for the sake of it.
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B
We should also mention that like he was only getting 15 minutes a game, but probably did not deserve those 15. He looked absolutely washed. It was kind of a tough watch at this point. Like, Rob, do you think like even he could latch on to a different team? Like he could play 10 minutes for the Lakers or any sort of like aspirations?
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A
Yeah, yeah, I think, I think he'll still end up somewhere to the extent that that's like a possibility for him. I think this kind of can't beat the end. I think for narrative reasons that would be such a huge bummer. But also basketball reasons. Like I do think that Chris Paul still has a lot to offer. What he is at this stage is kind of emblematic of where the Clippers were, which is like this old slow, stagnant kind of team. And so I think he needs a different energy around him and a Different kind of roster around him to make the best use of, you know, that organizational instinct and his playmaking, which he still has, like, there's still some stuff there that is useful to an NBA team, and it just wasn't useful to a Clippers team that was down, like, five guys with their rotation in complete disarray. And as you alluded to, Justin, like, a weird combination of all of these veterans who aren't able to put together a style of play that makes sense, and then all this young talent that they're now having to play because of their terrible circumstances.
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C
Do you think that there were any other suitors for him this summer? And he. Because I know he chose LA to be closer to his family, and that's been kind of something that's been in the back of his head for the last couple of years, is not wanting to. To be too far from. From California and from LA in the first place. But I don't know. I don't know that we have to write a better ending for this story for him. And I was like, every. Every idea I came up with kind of had a tragic element to it where I'm like, Charlotte. Like, no, I don't know.
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B
Like. Well, that is kind of like the trade off there. I do wonder if he was getting other offers. It was probably to be the Garrett Temple, the wise, sage vet at the end of the bench, not playing minutes for a certain team. Now, for Charlotte or for Indiana or something like that, he would probably play minutes because they need any minutes they can get. Those teams are both severely injured all the time this season. But I think his path would be best suited to conclude where he was best used as an NBA player, which was rearing younger players and kind of galvanizing and organizing and bringing structure to. To, like, young talent. And so I would hope that he ends up on a team like that where he could play some, but ultimately, like, maybe phase into more of, like, a coaching role or something.
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C
It's probably. It probably would have been cool if. If last season had been his. His final season, you know, play with Wemby and in San Antonio. Pop retires, Chris retires. It's kind of. Kind of has a little bit of like a. I mean, for. For our purposes of, like, packaging this. That's. That that would be the best. But I really hope that this is not how it goes. I mean, I was trying to, like, find a corollary to a legendary hall of Fame NBA player whose last. Last action in the NBA ended like this. And it's pretty hard to find.
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B
It's probably going to be more of the Olajuwon on the Raptors, Patrick Ewing on the Magic, unfortunately.
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A
Right. But I think what makes this case different is, in theory, what should have insulated and protected Chris from. You know, that kind of like, Coachella jersey treatment of like, the random team you ended up in on at the end of your career is like all the history here. Right. Like, this was supposed to be the homecoming. This was supposed to be a franchise that appreciated and was honoring what he was doing. The bobbleheads have already been made. My guys. Like, I don't know what we're trying to undo here by sending Chris Paul.
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B
Home never ends the way you want it to. I think that's kind of the moral.
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C
Here, where I Look forward to DeMarcus Cousins comments on Lawrence Frank from this week.
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B
I didn't know about that until you brought that to our attention. He was basically blaming Frank for all of the calamity that is the Clippers.
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C
Yeah, I mean, I, I honestly, like, I don't know anything about, like, the Clippers front office situation. I know it's widely respected across the league to the extent that even Frank people from the Lawrence Frank tree get other GM jobs and move out across the league. Being from the Clippers organization is seen as like a badge of honor. And I completely understand why they've remained competitive for, for most of my professional career, like covering the league in the last 12 years or whatever. But he has made some, some quixotic moves and, you know, it is not caught up to him. So we'll, we'll see how this one works out.
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A
Yeah, I think the draft record was pretty spotty. Pretty spotty. And then the latest round of those quixotic moves, like, yeah, Chris Paul is going home. Brad Beal is out for the season. Derrick Jones, like, Derrick Jones has been really good for them, but is out for a month or so. Like they, John Collins has been like real mixed results with this team so far. Letting go of Norm Powell and thinking your team could survive that has been a disaster. Maybe one of the biggest in this tenure of the Clippers. So there's just like a lot of stuff.
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C
Also was a tough one, you know.
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A
That turned out to be pretty bad. We simply cannot say enough on this podcast that for as miserable as the Clippers are, they're about to hand over a top five pick to the Oklahoma City Thunder. So let's just say that again every podcast until it sticks, we're definitely going.
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B
To get to that on this podcast, as we're recording this sham's actually just dropped something that he was clashing with the leadership structure there. Specifically, Ty Lue was not on speaking terms with Paul for several weeks, and so not surprising, honestly. Another scalp on Paul's wall.
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C
Guys, let's just all get together and play cards and work this out.
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B
Did they still play beret on. On planes? It's a great question.
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A
What is the gambling game of choice these days?
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B
Okay, maybe we need to start doing that when we're taking our prior jets. All right, well, we wish Chris Paul well. We hope he ends up somewhere in this league. I just don't want him go out this way.
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A
Well, jv, in the spirit of Name that Take, can I preemptively guess your Chris Paul related take, which is if you replaced half of your coworkers with 22 year olds, you would also want to be sent home.
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B
That's true. I have been known to be a bit domineering.
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C
3:00Am Justin gets kicked out of WordPress.
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We thank Justin for all his hard work.
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B
My slack doesn't work all of a sudden. Wouldn't surprise me, honestly. All right, Name that Take, part two. We tried this once with Kyle bringing in Chris. I would say, you guys, I'm way.
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C
More of a takesman than I am a tape man, so I'm interested in this.
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B
Well, also, I would say, seeing that the whole thing is based on my take, like, trying to guess my opinion on it, which is ultimately the right opinion, you guys probably have more history with that than probably anybody that I work with these days. And so you're best suited for the.
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C
Exercise game here that I played during Thanksgiving called first to worst. And you have to rank the person's preferences of like, five cards. They get laid out. So it's like avocado figure skating, you know, whatever. You know, it's like these ideas and you're like, oh, Justin would rank this first.
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A
Yes.
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C
This second, this third. So we're essentially playing first to worst here.
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A
I like to think that you and I are like machine learning models for Justin's takes. We've just absorbed all the data over basically decades at this point, and we're.
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C
Ready to regurgitate actually a Gemini bot.
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B
Rob, do you want to guess my take on avocados?
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A
You're anti.
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C
Oh, he's pro.
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A
You're pro.
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B
Mostly pro.
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C
Such like a. Like a basic B when it comes to, like, I think he likes coffee shops and toasts, you know, but he.
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A
Likes avocado toast but doesn't like Being the guy who likes avocado toast. Like, you have to incorporate the level of self loathing that is at the heart of every Justin take. So that. That's what makes it complicated.
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B
Rob, you just named that take. Congratulations.
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C
You just named that personality.
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B
All right, so I have down here four subjects. These are Name that Tune rules. And so if you've never watched Name that Tune, basically there are five clues here. Rather than musical notes, which they would typically give, and name that tune, you guys are gonna go wager back and forth and how many clues you can name that take. Chris will start the bidding and say, five being the maximum. Say, oh, I could do it in five. Rob will be like, oh, I could do it in four. Or you could be bold about it and say, well, I could actually do it in three.
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C
And at some point, we know you have strongly held opinions about a certain team or player, we might get gutsy and say, I can do it in one or two.
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B
Yeah, it's a wager. And then someone has to throw down the gauntlet and ultimately say, I like name that take. Chris, name that take. And then you have to guess it, and we go from there.
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A
Let's do it.
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B
Does that make any sense? Okay.
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C
I think so. Yeah.
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B
As I say these rules out loud, I realize how ridiculous it is.
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C
I might point to Rob on the first one just to see how I want to do it. But we. I learned by doing.
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B
Okay, Rob, do you want to start the bidding? The subject I should mention for number one is the Boston Celtics.
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A
So I think I can name Justin's Boston Celtics related take in three clues.
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B
That's. That's bold.
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C
Name that take, Rob.
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A
Okay, let's.
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C
Let's.
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A
Let's see what we get.
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C
Does it matter if I don't bid against him?
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B
No, no. It's your wager. All right, clue number one for the subject. Boston Celtics number one. Heart of a champion.
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A
Okay.
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B
Number two. The playoffs. Yep.
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A
Obviously.
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B
And number three, Jason Tatum's recovery timeline. Rob, can you name that Take the.
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A
Justin barrier take about the Boston Celtics. Is that. Is it. The Celtics could win the east or will win the east once Jason Tatum comes back. This is ultimately, I thought you would at least at minimum come in with, like, Celtics could upset someone in the first round without Jayson Tatum, but with Jayson Tatum, this. This is the official take. If Jason Tatum returns this season, the Celtics will win the East. That is the Justin barrier take.
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B
You were almost there, but you psyched yourself out thinking that I would go too bold. I actually went for the more modest one to start us off the take is I've seen the Lord in Jason Tatum's X rays. And the Celtics will play spoiler to someone in this year's playoffs.
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C
Well, I don't think that could be the case because if I'm the guys at the top of this conference, with the exception, I mean, obviously, like, it's too early to even talk about this, but those, those 8, 9, 10 teams, they got some seasoning. Philly, Philly, Milwaukee, Boston, like in and around there. Like, I don't want to, I don't really want to play them in the first round.
- [16:25]
B
I mean, this is the problem with the east at this point. Who do I feel confident about? Based on a 20 game sample, I would say maybe two teams like Detroit and the Knicks on the right night and the Celtics just beat them last night on national tv. Jordan Walsh is going up. All these like role players have worked. Rob and Jaylen Brown has been awesome this year at higher volume. And the muscle memory from the title core, which is a large, to a large degree, we take a lot of threes and we make some, not as many as we used to, I think just works especially in a knockout playoff format.
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A
Well, some of that is muscle memory, right? Like, some of that is your Jalen Browns and your Derek Whites and then some of it is all of those new guys who are filling roles and are kind of erratic. And I don't know that you can bank on the Jordan Walsh game every game. But him hitting huge buckets, Josh Minot, like queuing up big runs, that stuff's been really important to them. And ultimately is what allows all of these like up and down variables on their team to work. Like, Jalen Brown has gone from like the energy burst scorer to the fucking metronome of this team. Like, he's just become one of the most reliable creators and scorers in the entire league. He's having like an Anthony Edwards, Donovan Mitchell esque level of production. And around him everyone else can kind of come and go. And if you're shooting enough threes and you're getting enough offensive rebounds, like the Celtics don't just like shoot more threes than you anymore. They just get more shots than you. And if you have all of that going for you, I think you're pretty well positioned to play spoiler to somebody.
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C
Yeah, I thought last night just, just as like a, a small window into the team. I was impressed by the fact that it didn't feel like they had kind of.
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They had kind of turned over the entire offense to Jalen and gotten out of the way. Like there was still some ball movement, there was still the hunting for the Open 3 rather than just the right player or the, the pecking order that they may have on the guys on the court. And I thought it gave New York some problems. I also thought obviously like a, as Justin pointed out, a coast to coast game on national television, perhaps a little more pep in the step to display the Garden's wares. But yeah, I mean I think that the, the role players that if we'll keep them afloat, certainly I am highly dubious about this. Like Jason Tatum is the first man on the moon with this Achilles injury and will be back this season and be effective. I just personally have not seen that in my lifetime watching sports. KD is the closest thing I've seen to somebody coming back and being really effective. But he took that full year right? Like take the year. I don't know why he's not taking the year. Like Thunder might not lose again.
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B
It was in March. And so even if he comes back around the trade deadline, we're way ahead of schedule where we typically are with these sort of things.
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C
I just don't think you should do it.
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B
It is scary, I will say, if he's capable of doing so. The one worry I would have in terms of just like a long deep run in the playoffs is right now the offense is absolutely blistering. I think they're fourth in the NBA, which is pretty remarkable considering Brown's not the most efficient guy. But I do feel like he's playing looser and I do think having more reps has allowed him to play more free, which is nice. It's almost like kind of a Wagner sans Paulo thing where there's just like he doesn't have to think as hard and you can kind of almost see it on the court. But his bruising style needs more reps and so the volume actually plays into his strength in that regard. But in the playoff series, I do wonder if you're putting Tatum out there. He's not going, you don't need him to juice the offense because the offense has been pretty good defensively, they've been suspect and I think putting Peyton Pritchard is going to target in a playoff series. Plus Tatum, who has to probably watch his movements or his minutes, that might be a little too much. Rob.
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A
Yeah, I, I, I will say this part. Like this version of Jaylen Brown makes the Jason Tatum road back easier, right? It buys him more time because the Celtics are just Going to be better in the interim. Also, theoretically, when Tatum does get back on the court, he could take things a little bit slower. If Brown is continuing to produce and create in this way, like, there's just another kind of load bearing pillar in a different capacity than what they were getting out of Jalen Brown before that. That stuff is really important. Jayson Tatum should chill for as long as he can possibly chill. It's not just Peyton Pritchard getting targeted. Part of what makes Jason Tatum. Jason Tatum is that he can guard fives now and again. He can switch into all these different scenarios. He's doing, like, really explosive lateral movement to be the best version of the player that he is and one of the best players in the world. You're not getting that for a little while, and you shouldn't expect to get that for a little while. And so rather than bring back, I don't know, 60, 65% Jason Tatum, who's, like, actively conscious of his, like, Achilles at all times, just, let's just all relax a little bit and let this ride go as far as it can. Cause I have to say, a Celtics team that is unburdened by expectations has actually been a really fun watch and also just has been really competitive with almost everyone they've played against.
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B
So it's not the Celtics as spoilers. I think, as Chris alluded to, there are going to be a lot of teams in this category. I wonder if the east ultimately settles kind of how it is right now, where maybe there's one or two dominant teams that we expect to make the finals, but other than that, maybe the first round is just a coin flip where we're getting just very good series. Maybe something closer to 20, 21 where the Hawks made it all the way to these new Finals.
- [21:32]
C
I remember that playoffs purely because of the Hawks.
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B
Right.
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C
How they got there.
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B
Yeah. Yes. Right.
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Is there any team, Chris, that you like amongst the mix of the middling teams? I guess the Sixers would be there. Uh, you could throw the Hawks in there. I imagine the Magic and. And Cavs would probably sort themselves out by that point.
- [21:55]
C
Yeah, I would have to imagine. I mean, Cavs certainly.
- [22:00]
B
Would.
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C
You want to talk about the Sixers? I'm. I'm happy to do so. I mean, it's inevitable that. I was going to say Sixers in this case. I think that they're a little bit more up and down than obviously when the season started. And for Sixers fans at least, I think the embiid thing is happening in a little bit of a bubble which is nice. Last season and previous seasons, it kind of like a edge of your seat. Will he or won't he play tonight? I still the mystery of why they choose to run Embiid as a day to day endeavor rather than he's out for six weeks. We'll let you know in mid December or in January. What's going on with him still confuses me. I don't know whether it's his medical team, Sixers medical team, him, the pr, whatever it is. But all that being said, they now have like the most exciting, delightful backcourt in the NBA with this, this four headed monster that they've got going. And McCain has had a couple of really nice games including last night I believe. And I think Max, he's an all NBA player and it's kind of obvious that he has the keys to the franchise now and that everybody is kind of keying off of him. Whether or not like the amount of minutes he's playing so early in the season is sustainable and the amount of offensive creation that he's responsible for is sustainable throughout this entire season. Especially given what's been going on with most heavy usage players this year. So seemingly it remains to be seen. But I, I find this to be a really, really, really easy team to cheer for.
- [23:32]
A
Yeah.
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C
So beyond personal regional bias, like I, I, I think the Sixers are dangerous and different. Which is, which is my favorite part about them. They are, they are a much different looking team this year.
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A
They, I mean they needed that just in the worst way. Just a different energy, a different momentum. As you said, Chris, like putting so much of their stock behind Maxi with how well he's played. It's felt refreshing to watch the team again. Which is really nice we should say. As far as the Embiid part, they also just got dinged $100,000 for this.
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C
Is what I'm saying. It's like they just, this is, this is a straight. I don't know whether this where this comes from, but they have, they are the, the always in the, the eye of the NBA when it comes to how they're running. Embiid reporting for sure.
- [24:15]
B
See him and Maxi at the podium. I believe it was last night where Embiid referred to Maxi as the face of the franchise with Max. Yeah.
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C
And he's like, it's bad because I want to be out there for him but like even Embiid seems a little bit more upbeat than he has in maybe the last two seasons.
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I think he's like, I think he just wants to be there for, for Maxi. I think everybody is kind of like, this is, this is his franchise now. This is, he's the face of the franchise. He's one of the most popular athletes in Philly, I think. And I don't really know how to solve this. You know, the solutions would be trading Embiid to a team he doesn't want to go to. And it just seems unfair after what, like, he's meant to the franchise to send him to Sacramento or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, there, I, I don't know, and I don't know whether that even makes sense because what if he is decently healthy in a first round playoff game? Wouldn't you want Joel Embiid out there with you? So it's, it's a really tough situation.
- [25:17]
B
It's crazy that Paul George has now just become the furniture because Embiid, like, when he does play, at the very least, he makes such an outsized impact. Like, the numbers are there and he's just a large person that you're impossible to ignore. But by and large, there are stretches where I just forget balls out there and he's just not as front and center.
- [25:34]
C
I think he's playing much more functionally than embiId. Like, when B's on the floor, I feel like there's some deference to him. There's like, we have to find him. Bead and Bead's gonna dribble for a few seconds here and try and figure something out. PG is actually playing within the offense and, and seems completely delighted by being a role player.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Now, it's also funny. He's like 30, what, 4? I think.
- [25:55]
B
Yeah.
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A
Getting up there for sure.
- [25:56]
C
He's acting like he's like, but like just got back from World War II. Like, he's like, I was in Normandy.
- [26:03]
B
So he's just like, I'm so old.
- [26:04]
C
So it's really cool to be energized by, by Maxi and Edgecomb and McCain and Grimes and stuff. But, you know, he, he's actually playing pretty efficiently, I find, so far. And these minutes limits are, are kind of arbitrary to me. But, you know, I, I, I think he, he can function pretty well within the offense and can be pretty, pretty useful completely.
- [26:25]
A
And there is, and what a bargain.
- [26:26]
C
You know, you can't argue with the price.
- [26:30]
A
I do think there's a weird thing with Paul George where it's like his kind of connectivity and playmaking and sort of just like that facility on the wing was super useful to the Joel Embiid version of this team, and it's still useful to basically any team, including this one. But there are times where the explosiveness and the dynamism of the young Sixers feels like it's in a totally different universe than whatever it is that Paul George is doing. Not like Joel Embiid is fully his own guy and almost a separate team when he's on the floor. Paul George just feels like an accessory to all of this incredibly kinetic stuff that's happening from some of, like, the fastest players in the league, frankly, and some incredible shooters. And it's all. It's all moving really quickly in a way that Paul can facilitate and help. But he is a bit of a relic as far as, like, what this team used to be and what his intention was supposed to be with it.
- [27:19]
B
As long as they can maintain that electricity that largely stems from Maxi, but also filters down from Edgecomb and some of the younger guys. Guys like, I think they're going to be a tough out in the playoffs because if we're, as we're saying, like, it's going to be more of a series based on matchups or what team is clicking at the right time, I do wonder if that's the sort of advantage that can win you a playoff series. It probably won't beat some of the better teams, but, like, Maxi is not, if not a first team, all NBA guy, probably second team. I think they have to manage the minutes because it's a lot for a. A smaller, dynamic player. And as we've seen now. Yeah, yes. And as we've seen, those are the guys that have been befallen by these, like, ligament injuries. And so we have to worry about that pretty much constantly in the NBA at this point. But I think they got something and that's more than they had a couple months ago.
- [28:07]
A
And with Maxi too, like, although he has been kind of coming along for a while now, it's easy to forget he's already had four playoff runs under his belt. Like, this isn't just like a young buck who's going to be tested for the first time. He's been awesome basically every time he's been in the postseason. So you put him in play in games that matter or playoff games that matter. I just fully trust him to be that guy at this point. And that in itself is an incredible development for the Sixers, basically, no matter what else happens this season.
- [28:32]
B
But if not the Sixers or the Celtics, Rob, is there one team you like in this mix is sort of like the the dark horse, Denise.
- [28:40]
A
A dark horse to what basically be a spoiler. Yeah.
- [28:45]
B
To maybe make a second round or if things go right, they push for these finals.
- [28:50]
A
I think if the Hawks are in that group, they, they deserve mention as far as that goes.
- [28:53]
C
With or without Trey, though.
- [28:55]
A
Well, we'll get to that because I think they have some, some fascinating trade possibilities on the board potentially. But I think either one, like, I think the, the trade version of the Hawks, I still kind of believe in and without him, we've already seen kind of what they can do and be for better or worse otherwise, like, it's just really hard to bet on the bucks right now given Giannis's come and go. It seems like impressions of the team.
- [29:20]
All conjecture. But you know, sometimes social media means a lot.
- [29:23]
B
Yeah. Why don't we take a quick break and then get to Giannis directly.
- [29:28]
D
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move fast and Amazon prime keeps you in control with fast and free delivery. We've all been there. Family plans are fluid. Somebody's not coming. Suddenly they are coming and you're excited about it. You want to get them a gift. So you hop on Amazon prime, line that up with their interests. And it's easy to do because Amazon has everything. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. Need that last minute gift or holiday essential? It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now.
- [30:01]
E
This episode is brought to you by CarMax. When you buy a car with CarMax, you call the shots. You want to test drive every car in the lot. Want to shop while you watch the game? Want to match your car color to your sports team? Want to shop online, in store or both? It's your move every step of the way. And support from their helpful no pressure associates is there whenever you need. Want to drive CarMax? Shop now at carmax. Com this episode is brought to you by Fox 1. Fox 1 is now live. You can stream all your Fox favorites together in one place. From the NFL on Fox to big noon Saturday. Starring Rob Stone with Fox one. You get it all live. Start your seven day free trial today. Offers are subject to change. Go to Fox one for complete terms and conditions. Fox one streaming now.
- [30:49]
B
All right, topic number two. Giannis and Tettecumpo. Who wants to start the bidding here? Chris maybe because I think I can do two.
- [31:00]
A
Okay. Yeah. Chris named that take. Cause I, I, I don't know where Justin's going with Giannis.
- [31:06]
B
All right, Chris, the topic is Giannis. You have two clues here. First clue in all, in mid season trade, pretty expected, right? And number two, hardo culture fit. Chris named that take.
- [31:22]
C
You think he should be traded to the Heat?
- [31:24]
B
That is correct. The take is the new CBA has muddled in season trade opportunities, so the Heat should use that to their advantage and go all in on Giannis. And now if you look at the board, it is near impossible to come up with an appropriate suitor for Giannis for an in season trade, which seems unlikely overall just because for a variety of reasons we'll talk about like whether or not he's actually kind of given up on Milwaukee versus what people are reading into this. But for a lot of these teams, they need the depth to trudge through a regular season or just it's impossible to do so because of the new cba. I think the team who can think long term, who doesn't have as much to lose in the immediate, would be best suited to swing an in season trade. That's the Heat, who are pragmatic enough to completely revamp their offense and do what they're doing now. I think they're just as creative and pragmatic in order to flip it over for star power because they'll ultimately need that anyway. And so I would say for the Heat, try to pair Giannis with Bam and then figure it out later.
- [32:21]
A
Can I ask you about the like the present tense part of that? Because you're saying that they don't have a lot to give up. They're third place in the Eastern Conference right now.
- [32:28]
B
Yeah, but everyone's third place in the East.
- [32:30]
A
I mean, like that.
- [32:31]
C
Yeah. So I was wondering whether you guys felt like Toronto and Miami was like, is there a, a gravitational thing going to happen with those guys? Were they going to come back down to earth at all?
- [32:41]
A
I think it feels very possible.
- [32:43]
B
Yeah. I like what they've done with the new offense. It's a fun new wrinkle to explore. I do worry, as we saw with Memphis last year, if they're going to be diminishing returns as the season goes along as superstars want their pick and rolls in order to do what they do best when it comes just being more pragmatic about plush time possessions. But overall, like, I don't know what if what they've built necessarily equates to long term success. And as we've seen, the Heat's goal was ultimately just to get star power in the building. And so the trade off to me makes sense in that regard. And so if you can get Miami to give up the rosier expiring contract, which all of a sudden becomes one of the biggest trade trips in the NBA thanks to all the gambling sites, all the young guys where yakoshonis whichever young guys you want, plus picks, it's not the best package you'll probably get, but like you can get them to give up probably more than somebody else in the middle of the season.
- [33:38]
C
Giannis is under contract for how much longer?
- [33:40]
B
I believe two seasons.
- [33:42]
A
I believe it's two.
- [33:44]
C
Personally, the. When you first said all in mid season trade, Justin, the first thing that came into my mind and the one that I was playing around with on the trade machine and just thinking about culturally and I know we'll be talking about this team later down the line, so I don't want to step on it, but it was the Thunder and the idea of doing the KD trade early, you know, basically putting together the Death Star and then putting together another Death Star. It's crazy that the Thunder don't need Giannis, you know, which is basically the case. But in terms of draft capital and then also saying, all right, take, take these three guys off our bench. But to your point like this, this would destroy one of the Thunder's great strengths, which is their depth. Yeah, that the Thunder could sustain a Shea Hamstring injury absence, or they could sustain chat being out, or they could sustain as they already have Jalen Williams being out. So if you decimate that or at least significantly weaken it by trading for Giannis and then you have to basically bring him in and make one of the biggest superstars in the NBA part of like the, the flattened democracy of the Thunder. It's kind of, it would be a really interesting experiment. I think it's happening way too early. I don't think they need to do that. I think that they'll probably handily win the NBA title this year.
- [35:07]
A
They got a lot going on already.
- [35:09]
C
But it's, it's going to be nuts that they're going to do that or they could do that and so still have all of this stuff in their war chest.
- [35:16]
A
I think that the crux of that is terrifying and should be terrifying to anybody in the league, which is whether we're talking about Giannis or any other star. I think the Thunder have what, everything they need to trade for basically anyone in the league who is not Victor Webanyama or Nikola Jokic or maybe Luka, like that might be the only class of player.
- [35:37]
They'Re untouchables for many reasons. But, like, if Sam Pressy just really decides one day that he wants to trade for Tyrese Maxey, like, I honestly think they might be able to pull it off. Like, sorry, I don't mean to kill you on this podcast, Chris, but like, that is within the power of the Thunder to do. And yet the restraint in not doing it is also kind of the power in itself. Like, they are so far ahead of everyone else, they almost. They really don't need Giannis. They really don't need any trade like that.
- [36:03]
B
The one thing they don't have is. Is a backup big man who plays like a big man. And to the point where like Dagnal kind of alluded to that before yesterday's game where it's just like, oh, well, we only have stretch bigs after Hartenstein and it would be pretty hilarious if they went out and got Giannis in order to fill that void.
- [36:21]
A
To play backup center.
- [36:22]
B
Yeah, to play backup vibes guy. One thing I do, one thing I do.
- [36:27]
C
Giannis gets relegated to being the Thanasis of the Thunder.
- [36:31]
B
Well, that's actually a good point though, because as we saw when with his pairing with Dame, it seems like he's pretty particular about the way he wants to play. And the Bucks doubled down in that regard and just basically gave him a team that fits his preferences beyond anything else. Right. I do wonder, can Giannis clom on to a situation like, I think the Lakers will be a popular destination just because their fans are just psychotic.
- [36:54]
A
Well, also, also justified by current events, you know, like if you get Luke on your team out of thin air, who are you to dream in Photoshop or LeBron?
- [37:03]
B
Not like doing a third quarter play because he's just hanging out with the Sun's bench the other night that was wild. But would Giannis want to pair with. I can't believe that happened. Just kind of like going along. Well, Giannis want to pair with the Luca, who is going to obviously require a lot of reps on the ball if they keep Reeves in that situation. I doubt that they would be able to although managed to do it before with Luca, like that's more reps that he's not getting. So I for the Heat, I also wonder he could be the guy on the ball and you're playing with Bam, who has shown that he has enough stretch at this point where I wonder if you could work out that as a frontcore hero if you keep him like there's the guts of a good team that Honestly, Rob is more reminiscent to Giannis at his best with the Bucks, where it's like, it's Giannis and two good players and a chance, and he seems to get up for that more than anything else.
- [37:51]
A
I mean, he's great at it. He's one of the great floor raisers in the league. Like, a team with Giannis, even this version of the Bucs can just only be so bad. Like, they're just going to be competent and largely fairly successful over the course of 82 games if he's healthy. This is where I would love to get the Eric Spoelstra truth serum of, like, you've, you've revamped this offense. Is it just a coping mechanism? Like, is this just what you do when you don't have the guy? And if you brought Giannis on the team, we throw out all of this cute movement and pace and we're just going to play Giannis basketball and probably, you know, compete in the Eastern Conference with that. Or is this the kind of thing that is actually meaningful to him in this organization in a way where like, yeah, we actually do value this and want to play this way, because Giannis does not really operate within that kind of pace and speed like an incredible open court player, but is not the fastest decision maker in the world in that kind of like, democratic offense sort of way. So you could reinvent the Heat on the fly. And I wonder with this stuff too, how much they took lessons from over indexing on the past, like cute story versions of the Miami Heat that they then like, paid through the teeth to keep Dion Waiters and Kelly Olynic and James Johnson. It's like, maybe sometimes it's just like the good vibes last as long as they do, and then when push comes themselves.
- [39:05]
C
I find it very hard to believe that Milwaukee and Miami are going to be trade partners.
- [39:08]
A
There's also that part of it.
- [39:10]
B
It's possible. Rob, do you like any other suitors? Yeah, for sure. Do you like any other suitors beyond Miami?
- [39:17]
A
I mean, I love Atlanta. Like, I love that possibility. And especially in a world where Anyaka Kongwu is now shooting threes too, in addition to having KP on the roster, like, that solves a lot of the spacing issues that you would run into with some of these other teams in Giannis.
- [39:31]
C
So what's the Atlanta package? Because if I'm Milwaukee, I'm just like, I. I'm not letting you keep, you know, like, like, is Trey, is. Are we talking about trade?
- [39:40]
A
Oh, I think Trey has to Be in the deal. Yeah, yeah.
- [39:42]
B
I think Milwaukee wants.
- [39:44]
C
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's just like, do you think Milwaukee would do trade just to keep people in. In seats?
- [39:49]
A
Like, I don't think they're doing it for Trey. I think they're doing it for Trey. Plus Zachary Riza, Shay plus, say, hypothetically, like, a certain New Orleans pick. Like, there's things that you dangle into a deal like that to all of a sudden make it worth Milwaukee's while. I also think if you're the Bucks, like, having a Trae Young team is not the worst thing in the world if their goal is to remain relatively competitive. Trae Young, Miles Turner is not Giannis. But it's like a. It's a team that can't, like, will be somewhere in the mix in the Eastern Conference. And frankly, will it be much worse than 9th or 10th place or 11th place where the Bucks are right now?
- [40:26]
B
Potentially, yeah. It has the potential to bottom up, I think, pretty quickly. I've said this before. I think the Bucks should target volume as much as blue chip assets. And so I want a lot of stuff. And so for that reason, I do like the fact that they can get richer. Shay and a couple of their more recent draft picks, take a couple flyers on a couple of recent guys. Kobe, Buffkin, unfortunately not part of that trade, rip. But like, if I can get the Hawks pick or, excuse me, the Pelicans pick, plus whatever future picks aren't nailed down and being sent to San Antonio, that would make sense to me. I do think that would be the sticking point for me if I'm Atlanta, though. Like, a lot of your draft assets are already going to San Antonio. Like, can you double down even further and go out into like the2030s at this point? Just assuming that Giannis is going to want to play with who would be left, Jalen Johnson and right, Dyson Daniels, basically.
- [41:15]
A
I mean, that's a pretty good fucking core of a team right there. Like, that's. That's in Nikhil Alexander, Walker Akongu would still be there potentially. Like, I think there's a lot there you could work with. And as far as Giannis led teams go, I like the defensive shape of that supporting cast a lot, but they're.
- [41:31]
B
In a situation that I think a lot of teams are going to find themselves in where you're really haggling over the margins. The, like, the eighth guy, the ninth asset, because that's going to matter way more. Because it's like, okay, let's say it's Jalen Johnson, Giannis, Dyson, Daniels, Nikhil, and then just contracts, right? Just guys filling out the rotation. How far is that going to get you in the east, let alone in against the Western Conference team that's going to have a top three plus a nine man rotation that can play anybody.
- [42:01]
A
Is one of those contracts. V. Crachy.
- [42:03]
B
Well then, I mean, then you're onto something.
- [42:08]
I think you get the superstar in the trade if, if you're Milwaukee.
- [42:11]
A
Look, it's fair.
- [42:12]
B
Yeah. We should mention that we're talking about this in part because Giannis just went on a, a social media purge in which he deleted all his Twitter posts back to 2021 and scrubbed his Instagram. So he only left remnants of the cup win. Surprisingly enough, in the 2021 title wins more, man. Come on. I guess so. I'm sure by the time people are listening to this, they'll find out like, oh, actually this is just routine maintenance. I have a new ad deal with like Charmin and we were just cleaning my feeds, you know, just making sure.
- [42:43]
C
You guys know I am doing social media posts for sure.
- [42:49]
But I have no, no show job here.
- [42:53]
B
That's right. I have to say, like, I, I find myself just getting more and more mad with Adam Silver in the NBA to force us into the situation where we're just rummaging through the couch cushion for, for nickels and dimes of trade rumors because we just don't have anything at this point. This is the best as it's going to get for probably the next couple months because nothing can happen.
- [43:12]
C
It's actually just giving, I mean, like, honestly, like there was a time in NBA history when we didn't talk about this stuff until at least Christmas.
- [43:20]
A
Yeah. Trade season hasn't even officially started yet.
- [43:23]
C
Like, we're not there. I, I just want to say that like one of the more interesting trends, or at least.
- [43:31]
The introduction of European soccer culture into NBA because of the influx of, of Euro players has always been really interesting to me both in terms of the way that these guys think about teams and franchises more as a project rather than like I'm, I've always wanted to play in Denver. You know, it's like it's, it's got to do a little bit with the way that like these big clubs operate in Europe in terms of like how they'll present. Like, we're going to build around you. We're going to play this way. Here's what we're going to hope to achieve in the time I would say that Giannis's gesture here is probably a nothing burger, where you're right, it is tied to some like, routine maintenance of his social media profile or whatever. But this is a very European soccer thing to do, is to like, kind of keep things, keep things out there. Popcorn's popping, Let everybody know. I'm not happy. He's obviously not happy. Like, if you watch the books over the last couple of games, I don't think his effort is Giannis levels, at least. Like the other night, I was watching him and the end of the game, there was an end of game scenario. I can't remember who they were playing now. I'm sorry for the. I'm not as much of a tape head as I thought I was, but it was just like, I didn't think Giannis was like giving. Like, this is. This is the most important thing in the world to me. And whether that augurs that he wants to be traded or not, I don't know. He's really has.
- [44:53]
Given the restrictions that they have to operate under, I feel like the Milwaukee Bugs have done everything they can to make him happy and it hasn't worked out.
- [45:01]
A
I feel like I've seen some of the worst Giannis defense games from him lately in a long time. Like.
- [45:07]
C
Yeah, and that's usually where you see.
- [45:08]
A
Effort the most completely. And sometimes it's, you know, he'll make errors of effort, right? He'll over pursue, he'll over switch, he'll. He'll be in the wrong place because he's trying to make a play. That stuff is all kind of part of the package with a high energy, high motor guy like him. The stuff he's been doing lately is just not characteristic of Giannis. And so, like, I'm not trying to like, drum up smoke for the sake of like creating a story. He's just not playing with the level of like, acuity and specificity and focus that he normally does and that, that makes you look around. They lose to the Wizards, the mighty Wizards, in the Chris Middleton revenge game, in which Chris Middleton doesn't even need to get revenge because the rest of the Wizards are beating the Bucks. It just doesn't bode well for anyone involved. And I don't know if you are the Bucks, if you're a Bucks fan, if you're Giannis, how you look around and say, yeah, this is all going super great right now. Everything feels a little off. Everything feels pretty precarious. I wouldn't blame him for looking around, even if, you know, I'VE never passive aggressively scrubbed my social media, Chris. I'm sure you've done that once or twice in your day.
- [46:05]
C
I have not. My Twitter feed is essentially, like, you know, like, the first few years of it is, like, what old Twitter used to be, which is, like, no context. Live tweeting games.
- [46:15]
B
That was sick.
- [46:18]
C
And then, like, five years of links, you know, to, like, my. My own work, and then I just stopped tweeting.
- [46:24]
B
I'm kind of in the same boat here. I think it's interesting, though, because Giannis, at times, I find, is more calculated than people give him credit for. I think, like, he's much more sharp with his elbows than perhaps his sunshiny, like, disposition and just overall Persona, like, lends you to believe. On the other hand, like, he'll just be revealing too much his sex life with, like, his wife and mother of, like, three children and just be, like, a total goofball. And so maybe it's. There's. There's a middle ground there. But I. I really find it hard to read him because as we're going through the summer, for instance, I was like, this guy might just ask for a trade in August after everybody's already made their. Their rosters.
- [47:03]
C
I think one of the strange things about Giannis's saga is that, like, for. Whether it's because of the way that he's kind of presented himself or the fortunes of the Bucks or perhaps, like, just the psychology of Milwaukee fans, I'm not saying anything negative there. There often seems like there needs to be a moment where Giannis has to reaffirm his commitment to the franchise despite his contract situation. It's like, what we really need is Giannis to step forward and be like, I'm here for the rest of my career.
- [47:30]
A
Yes.
- [47:30]
C
And he obviously doesn't have to do that. I mean, he's allowed to kind of play the string out if he wants to, but it's unique to.
- [47:39]
I. I feel like I. I can't think of another superstar where it's like, please swear that you're gonna stay with us is like, a kind of recurring storyline, just.
- [47:47]
A
Begging for the vowel renewal. Like, and. Yeah, it's. It's not. It's not gonna come in. You're right, Chris. Like, it shouldn't come. If anyone's. Like, a loyalty kind of speaks for itself to this point, I would think it would be honest's. Given everything he's endured there, given everything he's built and won there, like, it's okay to look around for a player in his position, it's okay to consider your options. I think it's okay for him to say, my team is desperate enough to wave and stretch Damian Lillard to get Miles Turner because they feel that I am leaving. And sometimes that makes you want to leave more. Sometimes that feeling of, like, now we are just, like, locked in this closet together and there are no other ways out, and if this doesn't work, it doesn't work. And right now, it's working to, like, fairly middling effect on a regular basis.
- [48:28]
B
Yeah. And as much as John Horse and the Bucks were kind of signaling to their fans over the off season that they've done everything they can for Giannis, it's kind of a guilt trip, especially for the guy that's, like, right down the hall being like, dude, we did everything possible. Like, if he can't make this work, like, I don't know what to do. Like, that's got to weigh on someone who's been there for about a decade.
- [48:46]
A
See, that's the Justin barrier take, is the Miles Turner signing was a guilt trip for Giannis.
- [48:53]
B
That's unfortunately also correct.
- [48:54]
C
Wait, let's hear the name. That take. I feel like we were just getting good at this.
- [48:58]
B
Okay, this one. No one's gonna get this. I don't know what the fuck I was doing here, but we're talking about the OKC Thunder in this one. Rob, I think it's your turn to start the thing.
- [49:08]
A
I think I need, like, four clues for this.
- [49:11]
C
I'm gonna say three.
- [49:14]
A
I'm gonna say, name that take. I want to let Chris ride.
- [49:16]
B
Okay. All right. The subject is the Oklahoma City Thunder. Clue number one, the new CBA clue number two, parody or lack thereof. And number three, the big picture repercussions of a 70 win season.
- [49:33]
C
Your take.
- [49:35]
Is that.
- [49:37]
Enjoy the Thunder while it lasts, because Adam Silver, big accounting, and the championship hangover is coming.
- [49:50]
B
Kind of in the same word cloud, but probably the opposite side of that. Yeah, my take, which is elongated into two sentences. I couldn't even box it into one. The league has trumpeted its newfound parody at every turn, particularly in the face of criticism about the new CBA. But curtailing overspending is only going to compound OKC's advantage, creating a juggernaut with a potential for longevity that we haven't seen in decades. As we're recording this, the Thunder have lost only one game. They actually got a big old push last night by the warriors, third quarter.
- [50:23]
C
Warriors came back last night.
- [50:24]
B
That's right.
- [50:25]
A
But that's. That's the thing is it, it feels like a win when you make Shay play in the fourth quarter. That's, that's like how the season has gone for the Thunder.
- [50:33]
B
I will say the Thunder deserve all the credit in the world for what they built. They haven't, believe it or not, really reaped any of the benefits of all of their future asset building trades. Like at this point, as far as I I could like suss out they've only got the pick from Houston that allowed them to draft Nicholas Topic at 12 and Thomas Sorber last year at 15. All of the benefits they have from the Clippers and all these other teams I believe Dallas picks down the road they haven't even hit yet. Which is the scary part about this team. It's largely built based off of just shrewd execution. Execution, player development, player identification and just development overall. And so if I'm the rest of the NBA, I'm pretty worried because this is only going to compound over time their advantage. And I think the unfortunate thing is the new CBA dropped at a time where their advantage is just about to start. And so I don't see how another team is going to be able to slow them down in the big picture. Obviously they probably won't win every title. Maybe it'll be more spotty in the way that other past. Maybe like more spotted spurs dynasty than it was. Perhaps like a Lakers dynasty like always.
- [51:42]
C
In and around it, injuries aside. Like Western Conference finals. Finals every year.
- [51:47]
A
Yeah.
- [51:47]
B
But outside of other teams built in similar fashion, I think Houston is a prime example of this. And the spurs obviously. But if you're any other team trying to build something competitive with them is going to be near impossible. And I think the Lakers are a prime example of this where it's like Luka, bring Reeves back and then like maybe we find scratch together enough cash in order to bring someone quality in order to fill out the team. Like that'll give you a chance. But it's not on the same level. I think we would say Denver for instance, is, is a prime candidate to contend with them this year. I think they're going to hit a wall next year when the Christian Brown extension kicks in and all of a sudden you're back to digging through the crates for 10 day guys and draft picks. And so I think like the CBA has almost given rise to a juggernaut. Not only because the Thunder are good, because the time that it's just such a ridiculous time that you can't even build a team by overspending at this point. And so I don't know if it would matter.
- [52:41]
C
I also don't know if building a team by overspending would matter. You know what I mean? Like, that's how good these guys look, is that look. I would have loved to have seen the warriors play them with Steph last night, because I think the warriors, to me, when I, when I've seen them this season, definitely seem to play up to competition rather than down. There will be teams that give these guys a scare and maybe even a scare in a series because they've schemed something up. But I, I'm so impressed by these guys.
- [53:09]
A
It's.
- [53:10]
C
It's kind of, it's getting spursy in its boringness of just being like, oh, that's best defense I've seen in a long time. And you know, it seems like the thing that drives me nuts about them is that they somehow draft into roles like. Or they create roles that for the guys that they've drafted so that there is no headache about, like, well, obviously this dude's gonna want to get paid, so he's going to get featured. So when he gets on the court, he's going to want to take shots and he's going to want to have like a highlight reel. It's just like they somehow seem to have circumvented that issue probably because they want a championship and everybody's like, I'm about to be a part of something historic. But I don't even know if you put together like the most feasible super team you could. If they beat them.
- [53:56]
You put Giannis on the Lakers. Do you think they would beat the, beat the Thunder in a seven game series?
- [54:02]
B
Depends on what the Lakers.
- [54:04]
A
Yeah.
- [54:05]
B
Yeah.
- [54:05]
A
And we should say Luca is one of the unique guys who has actually given them trouble now and again, including in the playoffs. Granted, like an earlier primordial version of the Thunder.
- [54:15]
C
Yeah.
- [54:15]
A
But like that's the kind of creator you need. And if you don't have that guy, if you don't have Luka or Jokic, basically, maybe there's like one other person in that category. You're, you're kind of just in such a tough spot. You're right, Chris. That they're not like unbeatable on a night to night basis, but they're kind of unbeatable on like in a seven game sort of set.
- [54:34]
C
Like if you put Giannis on the Blazers who have, who did beat them.
- [54:39]
B
Be still my beating heart. Goddamn. As long as they don't give up. Denny. Yeah. You just can't take Denny away from me.
- [54:45]
A
I. I do like the overall frame of this take, Justin, because I think we need to start talking about the Thunder as the team that can kind of break the parody era of the NBA. Like, they. They could turn out to be the dynasty within all of this supposed balance. For as much as we love to anoint people in sports, for some reason we can be strangely resistant to the idea that we are, like, living history in the present tense right now. And the Thunder are one of these teams who they're reeling off all these wins. People kind of talk about them, kind of ignore them. This isn't an unproven team anymore. Like, they just won the title and they have the freaking MVP and the deepest roster in the league, and they're doing all this and they have no sign of stopping. So I don't know why you would expect anything other than some kind of dynastic presence from the Thunder in the years to come. Not just because they have all this, but because they could have basically anything they want in the trade market as well, like we already talked about.
- [55:36]
C
Yeah, it's funny, Rob, because, like, one of the reasons that we're given, aside from the obvious one, which is the money involved, but one of the reasons why the NBA won't shorten the season is because of their reverence for records and for history and not wanting to change the parameters under which, like, these things are achieved. But, like, we're watching history, you know, be like, this is going to be a historically good run for this team, barring, like, catastrophic injuries, and yet we put Giannis above them on the rundown now, not in, like, a negative way, but, like, this is kind of like talking about Lane Kiffin instead of Indiana going undefeated and only losing, like, two games in two years. You know, like, it's.
- [56:17]
B
It's.
- [56:18]
C
It's kind. It's that kind of, like, distraction culture that we live in where we're like, oh, no, I'd rather, like, play on the trade machine than watch, like, the.
- [56:26]
B
Thunder and the Warriors.
- [56:27]
C
But pretty soon it's going to become like, must see tv because they might be some completely obscene. They could be, like, 30 and 1. You know what I mean? Like, I was looking at the back half of their schedule yesterday during an NBA meeting, because I think we were like, oh, yeah, but they must have a really hard schedule to. To close the season. And I didn't really do the math on, like, how many games and how many days they have, but they are so good that no t. It doesn't seem hard. Yeah, because you're like, oh, yeah, it's a W. That's a W, that's a W. And you're like, wait a second, like 70 games, 72 games. Like, how, how. What are we talking about here?
- [57:02]
A
I mean, life is pretty good when you never have to play the Thunder. You know, like all. All of a sudden you can just coast through things.
- [57:07]
B
I. I see two obstacles, not necessarily issues in the big picture when it comes to the NBA. I love watching the Thunder. They scratch some sort of like, logistical pornich that I've talked about in the past. Where the things, the way that they intersect and how they're just so dialed in on all the minor details just like, speaks to me in a way that few teams have. I would say one is exposure. Like I say, despite their success, they still aren't even on the docket for the mom test, let alone passing it. I wonder, as they're more on national TV and as Chris alluded to, they're on national TV a ton of after the football season is over. So we're in the process there. I do think if they are going to be historically dominant, you want people to be able to latch on to them. The common fan and the way that they were the warriors. You want them to be celebrities in their own right. Maybe Shea gets there, maybe not. The other thing is, like, I do think teams are set up to be foils, but I almost wonder if it's redundant with where they like, kind of project as a character in the broad scheme of the NBA. Where it's like they're the homegrown team doing things the right way. The spurs do that as well. It almost like overlaps there where what I really want is LeBron on the Cavs versus the the warriors, where it's like that they're foils for each other. And that's why I almost want a team to be bought in the way that people suggested the warriors were with kd. Where it's like it's two things clashing at once, because that's what's going to drive the most interest there.
- [58:25]
C
Yeah, but the problem with like, the amount of information and analytics that are in the game right now is that everybody knows the right way to do it.
- [58:32]
B
Right? Are we like a baseball territory where the Dodgers have both?
- [58:35]
C
The only thing that we can hope for is that Mark Waters is like, there is no limit. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I. I will somehow acquire, you know, like three number one picks. But like I said, like, the the only thing that can stop the Thunder are the Thunder. It would be injuries. It would be like Presti being like, I've decided to run for president. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't know what it is, but it's not going to be, it's not going to be like any of the other teams in the West, I don't think right now.
- [59:02]
A
I mean, they've just controlled for a lot of the variables. And this is where I think you're spot on, Chris, about the way that they draft and slotting guys into roles that have opportunity for expansion of their skill sets but also are just like so comfortable for them. I think the Thunder do about as good of a job as any team in the league of really understanding the people that they're drafting and what they are getting into and not drafting the overly ambitious, precious Achua types of like, I think I'm a superstar and you're going to try to shoehorn me into being a role player. They draft guys who are clearly very talented, very multi skilled guys who they think can work in their system and their like developmental complex. They also draft people who personality wise will fit with this group and will fit if they are the eighth or ninth guy coming off the bench for a little while. Like, that goes a long way and it's probably, look, it's a luxury when you have as many picks as they do to be able to think that way, but they're really good at it.
- [59:52]
B
Well, speaking of a team that drafted its way to great success, let's talk about the Chicago Bulls. Next topic. Last topic on the board. I think, Rob, you're starting the bidding.
- [60:00]
A
Yeah, I think I can do it in. I think I can do it in two clues.
- [60:03]
B
Okay.
- [60:04]
C
Name that Tay Rob.
- [60:06]
B
All right, the topic is the Chicago Bulls clue. Number one, trade deadline, as you might have expected. And number two, Pascal Siakam.
- [60:15]
A
Okay, so I want to talk about this Pascal Siak a bit. It's been sticking in my craw all week. I'm so glad you gave me this form to discuss it.
- [60:22]
C
I love this story.
- [60:25]
B
Clearly we should, we should just, just say there's an ESPN story I believe by Jamal Collier basically with an anonymous Bull source, basically suggesting that they need their own version of Pascal Seattle.
- [60:36]
C
It was kind of the, the vibe of the story seemed to have been. The genesis seemed to have been in their red hot start.
- [60:42]
A
Yes.
- [60:42]
C
And now reality has kind of come for Chicago, so. But it's a little bit. But it's basically like they want to play fast. They want to be the Pacers. They have their Halliburton in Giddey.
- [60:52]
A
That's the critical part. It's not that they need to develop.
- [60:56]
B
Into an all Star and be what Halle was.
- [60:59]
A
Yeah, many, many thoughts about that. That assumption just baked in. I think the Justin take is clearly that they need to acquire Anthony Davis to be their Pascal Siaka in the ballpark yet again.
- [61:10]
B
But the other side of the coin here, the take is I actually agree with the nut job bull source. Chicago needs a Siakam, not an ad. I think it's taking it.
- [61:20]
A
They also need a Tyrese Halliburton Justin. Do you know where they could find one of those?
- [61:24]
B
Well, I don't think they'll ever get that far. It really becomes tough to be a Bulls defender because they say certain things like this and generally we should play.
- [61:31]
C
A game of name that nut job source one of these days.
- [61:35]
B
The next permutation trade deadline fodder. I think if they can get AD at a discounted price, which I don't think they can because the Mavs have already suggested that they're pushing back on that idea, I would go for it just as a stopgap, but I think long term that just compounds the cycle of being mediocre, Mediocre, mediocre that they've had. What they need, honestly, is just a version of Siakam, but just with lower expectations. If you're expecting to be competitive, not title contenders, then I think it makes some sense.
- [62:06]
A
So who is the. Who is the lower rent version of Pascal Siakam?
- [62:10]
B
Well, technically Scotty Barnes, but I don't know.
- [62:12]
A
Scotty Barnes is really good. He's way too good for. For even that kind of conversation. This is kind of the trouble with targeting a Pascal Siakam type. There's not a lot of guys who do all the shit Pascal Siakam does.
- [62:23]
C
Yeah, if anybody has a Pascal Siakam, they're holding onto them with Deer for dear life.
- [62:28]
A
Completely. And the other part of this is the assumption that Josh Giddey is the driver of a high level offense like Tyrese Halliburton needed the Pascal Siakam because he was leading some of the best offenses in the league. They just weren't stable enough to be playoff viable to the level. The Pacers needed Josh Giddey even with that hot start. Consistently Mets out to this point, which is. He's very skilled. He's very talented. I love the way he reads the floor and his offenses are usually like just below league Average in terms of what we've seen from the Bulls so far. So a bit of, a, bit of a chasm there in terms of what we're trying to bridge.
- [63:02]
B
This is really your two passion projects colliding, which is supporting the Pacers and bagging on the Bulls. So I see, I see the glint in your eye.
- [63:13]
C
This story did get me. I find that like, if there, there aren't that many sleeping giants in the NBA, because the NBA, like you've discussed with Oklahoma, the parody and, and just also the way that the talent is distributed. But Chicago is certainly one of like the untapped reservoirs of fan passion and also media frenzy. And I do think that like an even moderately successful Bulls team would be very good for the league and also like really, really passionately followed. And just even this like they go 50 and they start talking about being.
- [63:51]
1A to the Pacers is almost indicative of like the, like, we have like, we have like almost like snakes in our brain about this because. Because we think we, we want a good basketball team here so bad.
- [64:04]
A
I mean, yeah, like, you give that fan base, even the three alphas version of the Bulls, and they show up for it like that. They will. I think you're exactly right. There's a powder keg element to the Chicago Bulls that they have just been pouring water on for 10 straight years and I don't really understand why.
- [64:20]
B
I think there's some logic to what they're saying overall though, in that they find themselves yet again despite all doubt, like being pretty competitive this year. And if they're still going to be stuck in this cycle where they're going to be in the 10th seed, no matter what they do, it's going to be hard to tank your way to the top pick where they ultimately need in order to reset their franchise. So if that's not going to happen, which they have full control over and I realize like they could just tank in totality and this would solve itself.
- [64:47]
I think there's a certain logic to like going out and getting someone just being the best version of what you can be. But I also think part of this is like, I think they do have something with the flow that they play on offense, the guys that they have in order to move the ball. And I don't know if AD in this version of him, maybe like five years ago, more like pelicans move like shooting on the move, mid range jumper. AD would make sense, but like stodgy AD 20 pounds of muscle, too heavy. Wouldn't necessarily solve all their issues, they are soft as hell as Nick Vucevich of all people has alluded to. And I do think he would help their defense a ton and they need that. But the ideal version is more of their Turner plus someone like a Siakam in order to really complete the vision of what they have. So I just want them to be a low rent Pacers.
- [65:30]
A
Yeah, I, I think if you get, if you make the defense better overall, whether through Anthony Davis or otherwise, you relieve the pressure on the offense needing to be world beating because as we've seen, like they just reeled off four straight losses. Like they are at a point where they are running as much as they do. They're playing fast, they're just not really going anywhere because they don't have honestly like some of the same like isolation pop that a team like Miami does. Like when the ball swings to Norm Powell, it feels dangerous when the ball swings to like I do Sumo. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Like, you know, it's just going to ebb and flow a little bit.
- [66:02]
B
That's another part of this where it's just like, do you really want to gunk up your pace and play more in the half court? Like, good luck. You don't like Josh giddy now? Like wait until he's just like pounding the air out of the ball and like taking a set shot. It's just, it's not gonna work. So. All right, why don't we wrap it there, Chris.
- [66:19]
C
Thanks for having me, guys.
- [66:20]
B
So much for joining us on this journey into my psychosis.
- [66:24]
We'll be back on Sunday. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll talk to you next time.
- [66:33]
Foreign.
- [66:44]
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