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The Ringer NBA Show
The Dark-Horse MVP Race, Mathurin’s Moment, and More Takeaways About Actual Basketball | Group Chat
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- [00:02]
Kyle
Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck and the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one, your buddy, your sister. Ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something and maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet together, let's drive. Visit chevy.com trucks to explore the lineup.
- [00:29]
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- [01:19]
Justin
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justinver. And joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle Mann. Sorry I missed last week's riveting episode. I'll be honest. I looked at the title when you guys published. I was like, are these dudes tanking? And they joined the tank race as well. Like, what is going on here?
- [01:40]
Rob
Look, what's wrong with reviewing a little recent history? Do you, do you have some editorial guidance for us?
- [01:46]
Justin
Interesting timing, you know, right after the deadline, middle of the season. But, you know, we make do.
- [01:54]
Rob
Look, the content never stops. We, we had to go to work that day. Some of us, you know, we're trying to put it in honest days stuff.
- [02:01]
Kyle
That was the natural pivot, Rob, is to turn the knife right back on Justin for that. And we, it was a quick pivot in our defense also, and we did our best. And we're, we're retrospective introspective people, unlike you, Justin, who just plows forward with no remorse and no character development.
- [02:18]
Justin
How'd you guys feel? Was it just like 33.3% less hilarious than usual?
- [02:24]
Rob
Oh, we were lost in the woods. To be very clear about what was happening, I just, I felt like our, our compass was pointing in every possible direction. We were just walking in circles, Blair Witch style, out in the wilderness. And it's a miracle we got through it alive.
- [02:37]
Kyle
When I have no one to bully, I do tend to be aimless for a little bit. I've noticed that about myself. So, yeah, I'm glad to have you back for that.
- [02:45]
Justin
Reason I. I can't wait to be a punching bag yet again. Just fill my normal position here. All right, so today our compass is pointing toward actual NBA basketball. Believe it or not, basketball is back. And we're going to talk about the past four or so days of games post All Star break. Kind of the big old takeaways from that. I think first and foremost, we need to start with the MVP race, which is, I guess, heating up in certain directions, but also cooling down for certain players who might not actually qualify for the award. So, as we're recording this Monday morning PT, February 23rd, we are looking at Nikola Jokic with only one game left before he is deemed ineligible. He's missed 16 games. You can only miss 17. SGA has missed nine, Wemby has missed 14. Even Luca has missed 12. And so we could be barreling toward a race, Rob, where all of the top candidates, I would say at least the top two, we could talk about the top three just might not be eligible for this award.
- [03:47]
Rob
Yeah, and Shea is still very much dependent on how his abdominal strain reacts over time. I think we're still at least like, maybe a weekish out from him being reevaluated. Hopefully he'll be back before the threshold. But not only are those guys out, but, like, Giannis is also clearly out at this point. Kawhi Leonard is on. On the verge of getting disqualified, if he's even eligible for this. And so we're getting into, like, a secondary MVP race very quickly between Shea, assuming he's gonna be healthy enough to qualify. Jokic, I would guess we'll miss at least one game the rest of the way, but crazier things have happened. And then you're getting into what, Kate Cunningham, Anthony Edwards, Jalen Brunson, Jalen Brown kind of territory. Is there anyone else that kind of jumps off the page for you guys in terms of who could suddenly be a candidate? Yeah, Donovan Mitchell, for sure.
- [04:33]
Kyle
Yeah, I was gonna say, are we gonna reach a point where we do almost like a reverse tanking thing where we just bring guys out for a. For a quick appearance, you know, like in a game just so that they can make. Are there rules around that part of it? Is there a minute stipulation to. To technically qualify for a game appearance?
- [04:52]
Rob
There are, because, remember, Dante DiVincenzo ran into this because there were a couple games where he didn't play enough to technically qualify for. I think it was either six man or most improved that he was contending for that season. And so I think it has to be over. I want to say like a 10 or 15 minute threshold, if I remember correctly. But also these rules are fake and meaningless and I don't know why we're like so beholden to them. But here we are trying to figure out how to give Cade Cunningham the mvp.
- [05:18]
Justin
Well, I worry that what's going to end up happening is a lot of these guys are going to push through it in order to be eligible. Like you said, Jokic only has the one game left. He's already playing back to back. He didn't pace himself back post injury. He's just really doing everything out there. And as you've seen in recent Nuggets games, they need him to be playing pretty often. And so I do wonder if he will just power through, if Shay will, will arrive back with enough time in order to be eligible. But then it just screws up the rest of the regular season into the playoffs where it's like, oh no, Shea has another tweak of his injury and all of a sudden he's going to miss three games. And so I think it's already a worst case scenario where we could be affixing an asterisk to whoever wins this award in like an actual sense before. We've talked about like, oh, this happened and this happened. We need to do it because of the bubble, all these bullshit reasons. This will actually be probably an MVP, which is something we could talk about. But I also think it like, could ruin the playoffs in a way that could be catastrophic.
- [06:14]
Rob
Okay, walk us through that. What, what do you see as the playoff implication here?
- [06:18]
Justin
Well, just if these guys get hurt again because they come back too early in order to be eligible for this award, just to hit the benchmark of 65, as opposed as if we couldn't decipher between 63 and 64 games for
- [06:31]
Rob
some of these guys. I, I think Jokic is the one to watch there, oddly enough, because you're right, Justin, that they have needed him desperately to gut out what should be easier games than they are. And yet you need like a 35 and 20 effort from Jokic to get done what you need to get done. And even in doing so, for a guy who's putting up 35 and 20, it is like so clear that he's not 100%, like he will have possessions where it's like just not moving quickly or responding quickly enough. He's had some like, rash turnover games that were just very out of character for him. And frankly, he's had more of those this year overall than you would expect. Just games where all of a sudden he'll end up with 6, 7, 8 turnovers on the night for matchups, that should be a little easier for him. And so I, I don't know what to make of him and kind of what the Nuggets need from him at this point because he is that essential. He also needs to get some rest at this point. He's also probably pushed back too hard too fast already. And so I. The MVP is not precious enough that the Denver Nuggets should be punting on their season just to make sure that Nikola Jokic is eligible for it, even if he could be. So I think he is due for a rest at some point. Shay is the one that I think they will be able to kind of pick and choose their spots probably a little bit better. As far as what is proactive versus what is necessary versus what is, you know, honestly rewarding. Somebody who would be a great, you know, back to back MVP and a deserving back to back MVP for that particular honor.
- [07:57]
Kyle
Yeah, Jokic, you know, traditionally a drop and soft show defender when it comes to like pick and roll ball screen situations, whatever it might be for someone like him to have a hyperextended knee. You coming back from the conditioning, you're coming back, there's tenderness there. You know, if you come back a little bit too quick, it's just easier to get overextended, winded out of position in his situation and then you figure in what he's carrying on the other side. But then in the broader sense with this whole, you know, landscape of the MVP thing, I just find myself, it's kind of amusing to me just because basketball has just kind of become a game that's like at war with itself in some ways where the individualism drives it. But in, you know, these individual awards, the, the incentives that are literal cash incentives to win. And then you get in these situations where, like Justin said, it's kind of compromising the team's thesis and putting us in these odd situations. And then the other thing too, you were talking about, I find myself getting really, really annoyed imagining years from now the qualifiers in the conversations that we're going to be having about legacy, as we love to do, just about this MVP season, because I don't know, is the 65 thing. Do you think it's here to stay? Is this going to, is this going to become the thing that breaks the, that breaks the cycle for this?
- [09:16]
Justin
I would say if it's loud enough, if the backlash is Loud enough, as we've seen with tanking, then it goes. And the one thing you could say in Adam Silver's favor is that at the very least he isn't dug in when he changes something. He's been willing to change things again and again in order to find the right answer. The All Star Game is a prime example of that. And so I imagine that happens. But I do think it comes down to how big of a black eye it is in order to force a change, which honestly is how most businesses work. They could talk about like, oh, this doesn't fit our, like, our ethics or whatever morals. It's really, when it affects the bottom line, it becomes too much of a PR disaster that they just can't stomach that.
- [09:51]
Rob
And that's where I think the SGA inclusion is probably the breaking point. And that's. I say that, and I don't want to disrespect Cade Cunningham, who would probably be the MVP by default if Cade becomes ineligible. And the other guys who are on pace to be ineligible also would be. It's really not a Cade issue or a Cade question, but he is, you know, somewhere around the 8th to 12th best player in the NBA. And the fact that you're getting that far down the list in adjudicating what's supposed to be the ultimate individual award, that is a failure of the system. And it's certainly a failure of, you know, the schedule and everything that's leading us to this point and all of these, you know, the rash of soft tissue injuries that we've talked about all throughout the year. But I think so long as Shay is still in the race and ultimately wins, some of the asterisk talk will fade the uproar. Like, the real noise that you're talking about, jv, I think, comes from the fact that if, you know, Shay and Jokic and Giannis and Luka are all ineligible, the, like, what now? Shrugging that will have to happen will, you know, inspire a lot of conversation and hand wringing about it.
- [10:51]
Justin
Well, let me ask you guys this. So let's say Jokic and SJ are off the board. Just the top two guys. The two guys we anticipated being the top two practically most of this season. Do you guys ultimately say it's Cade or like, does Wimby get a good look for you?
- [11:08]
Kyle
Is Jalen Brown.
- [11:09]
Justin
Yes.
- [11:10]
Kyle
This is my strongest thought on the whole that I was just looking over this group of players. Are we sure that we jump to Shay? I mean, I'm not trying to downgrade Shay's account. Like, when you look at what Wimby has done, this team, I think they're like, third in defensive rating, sixth in offensive rating. They've been on fire recently. If you want to just look at one player versus one team. His impact on okc, the defending champs, has. We've talked about it a lot on this show, has been dramatic. The defensive anchor thing, I don't know. I. I know his offensive output isn't the exact same as Jokic, and that can kind of mess with your brain. Where we do the counting stat thing, and you just, like, sort by points. We're like, hey, well, you know, that's the. That's our tendency to do that. But his overall impact. I guess what I'm trying to ask is just, are we. Are we absolute. Are we valuing Wimby correctly in this MVP conversation? Because when I was pouring over the numbers, I was like, are we not sure he's two? Shouldn't he? Should he? Is. Is that crazy for him to be two?
- [12:10]
Rob
It's not crazy. Yeah. Like, it's a reasonable conversation to have. But counterpoint. Shay is the best individual scorer in basketball, and every. You're catching me at a weak moment because Kayson, Wallace, and Wimpy's the most
- [12:23]
Kyle
dominant defensive anchor on the planet, and he bothers Shay's offense in a way. And I think that is a micro cause. Like, come on.
- [12:32]
Justin
Like, I actually think this is the case, though. Like, perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way. Like, maybe this isn't the sign of things needing to change. If anything, this makes the MVP race more interesting than it has been in years past, because we do become so anchored in these top two guys because, frankly, they are the best two players in the world right now. It's pretty inarguable. But if we're just going by body of work, then it's like the door is open for a lot of these guys. Especially because, as Rob was saying, like, Jokic looks pretty sluggish. I saw him here in Portland the other night, and he definitely is moving more stiffly than he has in the past now. He just put up 19 in the first quarter because they let him shoot, and he just shot the lights off there, so he could still do that. And so it was like the weird. Like, oh, he's hurt, but also still the best player in the world.
- [13:17]
Kyle
He could be in a full body cast and get 16 and 12, five assists. Like.
- [13:23]
Justin
But I. I just think it opens the door. Like, I. If he is diminished over this stretch, Run. And as much as we don't like to admit it, the final conclusion, like, what you see last, I think does matter to you more. I think it's just like a psychological effect where you just glom on to the more recency bias. I. I do think it would probably sour his case to the point where, like, people would consider other guys even if he was eligible.
- [13:45]
Rob
I. I think that's totally true and deserving. And you're right about the psychology of kind of what we're seeing late in the season. I think as far as, like, Wimy's place in that conversation, I'm absolutely down to have the debate. I think we will have it if both those guys continue to be eligible. And we should say Wimy's already missed 14 games. He's a borderline candidate at this point, himself. What I want, though, is there to be the debate, because if Wimby wins because he hangs on but Shay doesn't qualify, that is a boring outcome. Like, I want whatever Wemby's first, like, breakout awards push to be. To be one where he's resting it away from guys like Jokic and Shay. And so, so long as there's a conversation to be had, I think that's great.
- [14:25]
Justin
That's just not how, like, the world works. Have you not watched Game of Thrones? It just doesn't happen the way it's supposed to. This isn't fantasy land, buddy.
- [14:33]
Rob
But I'm fine if it takes some, like, you know, backroom machinations and executions to get there. Like, you know, but you got to lop off somebody's head in order to take the throne. That's. Ultimately, it was a point.
- [14:44]
Kyle
It was a better story because the Starks suffered. All right, we can agree on that. I wanted them to win, but they had to suffer.
- [14:51]
Rob
And what's important than a great story, you know, it's true.
- [14:54]
Justin
How much of the case for both of those top two guys, though, is a fix to the team result where it seemed like the Thunder were just going to run away with this, and we thought they would be in historic territory in terms of. Of their record. Well, now, like, the Thunder are not only neck and neck with the Pistons for the top record, but the spurs slowly but surely getting into that conversation. They just passed the Phil Jackson rule the other day where they won 40 games before they lost 20. And, like, the probably the hottest team in the NBA. I don't see them slowing down over the next couple games as well. And so, like, maybe Wemby misses it, frankly, because of all the injuries and whatnot. But they are kind of built in order to sustain over the second half because they have so many live young bodies. If anything, like, I have more faith in them having a nice finishing kick than I do even the Pistons, who feel like just last night, Dur's dropping the ball on Nick Richards. And I thought another fight was going to spring out, though. So, like, the spurs, like, they have a good shot here and Wemby has a good shot as a result.
- [15:52]
Rob
I. I'm kind of stunned that we're here with the Spurs. I know we've been talking about them and around them all season, trying to understand how seriously they should be playing into the title. You know, our title pie, but also our. Our broader understanding of who is actually contending this year. They're just like flat out top five on both sides of the ball with all that youth, with every caveat, with every concern you may have about their execution or the construction of their team. Like, I don't care if you want more out of Harrison Barnes. Like, they're good right now and they're dominant and effective right now. And so the fact that it is turning into kind of a team case for all three of these prime candidates, and I want to include Kate in that as well. Cause he has in many ways the most compelling team case. Right. Like, not as quite as glitzy an individual candidacy. By the numbers at least. If, like you, you are kind of prioritizing efficiency, especially relative to efficiency.
- [16:43]
Justin
Police is out for Cade and also Jaylen Brown. I've already seen the cases. Like, they don't have the effective field goal.
- [16:50]
Rob
Shut up.
- [16:51]
Justin
They're good.
- [16:53]
Kyle
Yes. Yeah. You want the efficiency there, but the other, the other half, that has to be there. I think if you're going to be the MVP archetype, if there was one, if there were one, is you need to be a floor raiser. And either that means you're a force multiplier on offense like a Jokic, or, you know, Shay's really evolved in that sense. K does check that.
- [17:11]
Rob
Oh, yes.
- [17:11]
Kyle
I know we can dive into him, but in terms of his ability to just manufacture easy baskets through his threat to score, he has gotten better in a lot of different ways. I was studying it more. Some more specific aspects of it this morning, but to me, I think that's. You have to check one of those boxes, Jalen. It's harder for the defensive side of it. Me, listen to me, like, you know, historical guy who never guarded anybody. I'm an offense guy. I love scoring. I love studying scoring. It's my favorite. I'm going to defend the defensive thing pretty fervently here. It's just, I think for Jalen and for Kate, I think this is also true. It's harder for them to be two way impact guys and sort of leap over some of these offensive anchors because they're not going to dictate what the other team does necessarily like in the same way that a defensive anchor would like Wimby. Am I making sense on that, on that front? I just think for the guys that have a two way case, I just don't think that they can make as much of a case as Wimy.
- [18:08]
Justin
An individual perimeter defender is not going to have the same sort of effect on someone who could warp an entire offense with his defense. But I just, I just think Cade's playmaking gets kind of overlooked here. Like we're talking about a guy who's almost single handedly orchestrating everything the Pistons are doing and you look at like the, the components that he's having there. It's just like, it's a lot of just spot up shooters. Even Jalen Duran, still pretty plug and play is just like a burly role, man. I know he's got a lot of ceiling there in order to tap into and so like the efficiency stuff just doesn't bother me with him when you're driving the results of everything offensively for one of the best teams in the league. And so it sounds like we're kind of like circling Kyle, you would probably lean Wemby if the top two guys aren't there. Does that sound right?
- [18:53]
Kyle
Yeah, Wimby is. Wimby's at the same games played as Yokich at 42. So it's like there. But we talked about Yoko. It's being on the, on the edge of an knife here. But you know, Wimby's right in the same boat, so. But Wimby's history, I guess you just kind of lean towards the likelihood of missing games. It's, it's pretty, it's pretty likely at this point. But yeah, Wimby's dominance over like Kate and those other guys. I really appreciate what Kade and Jalen have done, even reaching down. I mean we even mentioned Luka Delancic in this, in this conversation.
- [19:20]
Justin
But I can't, I cannot anymore.
- [19:22]
Rob
I mean you can, you can and should.
- [19:24]
Justin
I look at the body of work and it's just stupid. Like he's averaging almost 33 points a game. He's almost 11 free throws. You watch a game. It's unbelievably annoying to watch him at any point in this season. So I. If I had an actual ballot, I wouldn't vote for him just because he's crying. Just diverts like double digit possessions on a given basis.
- [19:50]
Kyle
I've been like an appreciator from the front row. I was making fun of myself for myth making on a past episode. Like, I appreciate Lucas talent. Luca doesn't play games. He litigates games. You like, it's. It's tedious. He's like, I'm going to drag you into the mud. And I know every clause and every statute. Like, he's like. And he just argues, argues, argues, argue. And you're just like, for the love of God, Luca, just play basketball. Like, holy moly.
- [20:15]
Rob
I would like him to argue less. Also, I don't really care that much to the point where it's going to weigh into a conversation like this. Like, if you want to talk about the ways in which his arguing trades off for transition defense, like, that's a real thing, right? That's like a. That is something you need to talk about in terms of the broader understanding of what Luca does and doesn't do. He still creates literally everything for that team and has had to do it in so many combinations with so many lackluster lineups that if, like, if you're not talking about Luca as an MVP candidate, I feel like you're really missing the boat on, not just like individual value, but, like, what. What are we rewarding if not the kind of performance that Luca is bringing to the table?
- [20:54]
Justin
I'm not getting a frown.
- [20:56]
Kyle
Justin just did. That's the thumbnail. Isaiah, if you don't thumbnail that frown that.
- [21:00]
Justin
I don't do yachts, I don't do cruises. Like, just no boats for me in general because, well, this is why you're
- [21:08]
Rob
out there on, like the Titanic style door, just floating in the middle of the ocean. Like, we're trying to get somewhere.
- [21:14]
Justin
I'm willing to freeze, baby. I just, I. I think his raw numbers just blow your wig back. And it doesn't account for the possessions that he's punting by being a crybaby on the court complaining to the refs while the action is going the other way. Like, if he scores 35 points a game but gives up 10 on the other end and we're not even factoring what, what. He just gives up defensively just by, like, not even trying and dying on screens all the time. Like, for an enterprising young lad out there with. With the calculator and all the advanced stats, like, start tracking the amount of points that Luka punts by bitching. And I do think it would be just as, like, Stark.
- [21:50]
Kyle
Yeah, yeah, Jesus, give me the bitch
- [21:53]
Justin
puns, the scatter plot of the bitch points, and you would see, like, it would probably shock you how much he actually is just giving away free points.
- [22:02]
Rob
I think that is absolutely true. It would be a startling number to see. I also think if you do want to ascribe 10 bitch punts to Luka Doncic per game.
- [22:11]
Kyle
Just can't get over he's second Spectrum bitch punts, man. That's got it. We can track that.
- [22:18]
Rob
I think we can and we should. Even if you want to, like, you know, demerit those from his resume, he's still one of the most productive players in the league. He's still wildly effective to the point
- [22:28]
Kyle
that I have a philosophical question. I'm. I'm going to interrupt you, Rob. I'm sorry to do this. We know that he has to do this for the Lakers. Like, he could seed a little bit to Dawson Reaves, whatever it is. Is Luca willing to play any other way? Like, is he always going to be implied in the MVP consideration? And does he create this hazy line where we have to go in every single time and decide, like, does he always deserve to be in the mvp. MVP consideration just because of the rigid way that he plays? Do you have to weigh that at all? Do you see what I'm saying? Like, because even on a bad team, he's going to put up these crazy numbers, right?
- [23:04]
Justin
And I also think, like, if we're talking about the margin of error for each specific team, you would argue that, like, he needs those extra 10 points more than anyone because the defense is so suspect in Laker land that, like, they need every bit of help in order to be in these games. And so I think if you're thinking from a broad aspect as we're talking about, like, team success and how much it might drive who he ended up giving the MVP award to. Luca's not inability to not understand the situation emotionally, he does just in terms of his raw play because doing more is incumbent upon him because of the lack of talent he has outside of Reeves and LeBron. But, like, if you just shut up and, like, you'd be better off for it, and you can't bring yourself to do that. Like, I just. I just don't see how that's most valuable. If anything, it's most selfish. How about that?
- [23:54]
Rob
Most selfish. Wow. I mean, you're really on one today.
- [24:00]
Justin
I'm back, baby.
- [24:01]
Rob
He's leading the league in scoring on a near triple double every night. For a team that's going to win, like, almost 50, if not 50 games, I'm sorry. That's good enough. I don't know what else to tell you.
- [24:12]
Kyle
It is good.
- [24:13]
Justin
He's good. No one's. No one's arguing that Luke is good. I think he just sucks to play with. And I think that's the sort of quiet killer. I think that kind of undercuts a lot of teams. And frankly, that's the difference between a very good player and an mvp in my mind.
- [24:26]
Rob
I think every star requires certain skill sets, personality types, whatever it is, to play alongside them and really thrive. We've seen players go into Golden State and they just, like, cannot fathom the, like, the motion of that offense to actually work alongside Steph. They're just, like, completely lost in it. That's not, like, a Steph issue, but that is Steph's style of play contributing to these other guys not being as effective. We've seen examples of guys who go to play with Nicola Jokic and don't quite work out. I think Shay might be one of these few guys who, because he's so laid back temperamentally and because so much of what he does at his best is not in a vacuum, but, like, can be created in a vacuum. He might be the easiest star to play with in the league across the board. For every player type, no matter what you do, anyone can kind of play with Shay. Who can't play with Shay?
- [25:12]
Kyle
Do you believe that? I mean, who can't? You think playing with Shay is easier than playing with Jokic?
- [25:18]
Rob
Easier, for sure.
- [25:20]
Kyle
I don't know. I don't know if that's true.
- [25:22]
Rob
I think. I think if you put.
- [25:24]
Kyle
Go ahead.
- [25:25]
Rob
No, I think playing with Jokic requires, like, a different kind of movement and philosophy and situational awareness. A lot of the guys who can be really successful playing with Shay can be as simple as, like, go park in the corner. And that guy can play off of Yogic, too, but not to the same effect as, like, Aaron Gordon's cutting or Jamal Murray's kind of like, bob and weave, like, handoff game. I think with Shai, he does a couple things really crucially that absolutely factor into this MVP conversation, but also make him just really affect him more broadly. One, when he's on the floor, your team just, like, does not turn the ball over because he doesn't. He controls a lot of it. And he puts you in positions to succeed as a role player where you're not being asked to do too much typically. And so if that's kind of the floor is like, he's putting up incredible production, your team as a whole is not turning the ball over. And what you're asked to do is like more expansive than Luka kind of spoon feeding you points, but less demanding than some of the off ball movement or kind of intricate choreography that goes on with some of these other stars. I think there's a sweet spot there that most NBA players fall into.
- [26:27]
Kyle
That's a good argument. I just think, I think if you think about, I mean, I would throw Halliburton in there as one of the easiest superstars to play with. I just, I don't think that Jokic is going to compress for as phenomenal as, you know, he's an incredible scorer in all these different ways. You know, he can attack single coverage, he can hit open shots, he creates cutting offense. It's like, okay, boo hoo. He asked for you to like, play off the ball and not play a. A me centric style of play. I just think. And God, and all of like the benefit of the doubt, like devil's advocate here. Like, I know I'm probably gonna get some notes for this, but, like, I've made it sound like I don't like Shade Luke. I really like both of them. I just think when you're talking about that top 3%, it's. It's you, you. It does deserve. The hairs deserve to be split. I just, I think, I still think that Jokic is the easiest to play with because if you brought in a superstar like Jamal Murray is enabled in the easy baskets that Jokic creates for him, but Jamal Murray is also enabled to just play pick and roll and play isolation or play whatever he wants to do. Because Jokic is just like, you deserve that. If you had a star that came in that deserved to expand and fill the space with the things that they do well, MPJ couldn't do that. He didn't deserve to do that. And he's great. We've seen Jokic will allow you to do that though, like, if you deserve it.
- [27:45]
Justin
You know, I feel like Jokic is just like rolling out the finger paints and just letting guys be who they want to be. Like, just like have free time and just like explore your creativity. Whereas, like, Shay does require a little bit more rigidity and who's around him. And to that point, like, a lot of the guys that he play around him just happen to be like, very streamlined three and D guys. Even Jalen Williams. Yeah. J Dub is just like, kind of doing it in tandem to Shay rather than, like, being propelled by Shay's own playmaking. Like, Yoko just kind of just brings out, like, Aaron Gordon is just all of a sudden a completely different player than he was when he started in Denver. And I have to imagine a lot of that is just because of the opportunities by Jokic. But wait, hold on. Let's circle back. Because Kyle said he was probably Wemby, if not the two, the top two guys. Rob, you lean a certain direction.
- [28:32]
Rob
Amongst these others, I would lean Wemby as well. I'm just kind of operating under the assumption that he's probably not going to make the threshold, you know, that at some point now, between the end of the season, he'll probably miss three more games and then it's, you know, we're on to the next guy down the line. But if Shea is eligible, Shay right now would be my pick as well.
- [28:49]
Justin
But what. What if those three guys aren't there,
- [28:52]
Rob
like, moving on down?
- [28:53]
Justin
Well, this is probably the exercise, right? Yeah. Like, if those three guys, as we assume, don't make it, which right now they're on track not to. Who's your guy?
- [29:04]
Rob
I think at that point, it is a Cade vs. Luka conversation for me. And the team case for Cade might be strong enough to kind of overcome that.
- [29:15]
Justin
I agree. I would actually put Jalen above Luka in that case. I also wonder if Kawhi eligible is eligible.
- [29:20]
Rob
Like, we haven't talked about.
- [29:23]
Justin
Kwai's a fucking killer right now. He openly admitted that the Clipper season is basically over, which was fucking hilarious because they're going to make the play, and it's not like they're just, like, trying to scrounge together tanking wins in order to get a higher draft pick. Like, they are still very much going to play postseason basketball. He's like, no, just fuck it. But then he goes out and scores 37 last night against the Magic and is often, if not always, the best player on the court. He's had an absolute blistering second half. If we're just going by, like, January 1st on, probably the best player in the league has probably had the best resume since the first, which I know it's a full season, but God damn, he's been so good.
- [30:04]
Rob
I have no argument against it. I really think the only weight on Kawhi's case at this point is not even really those, you know, the first month or so of the season. It's just going to be that the Clippers are nowhere near as good as these other teams. And while it is an individual award, there just is something a little nasty about like we're going to reward the team with like the 9th or 10th the best record in the west when Shay could be sitting right there, Cade could be sitting right there. Jaylen Brown, as you said, could be sitting right there. And that's assuming that Wemby isn't eligible. It's just it gets tougher and tougher every year to not even make like the Russell Westbrook esque, like this team is in sixth place case. But like can we vote MVP from a 10th place team? Do we have that in us, like collectively? I honestly don't know.
- [30:47]
Kyle
Is Russ the worst record mvp? I don't. I should.
- [30:52]
Justin
They were a four seed, right?
- [30:54]
Rob
I think they were lower than that.
- [30:56]
Justin
Oh God, maybe six. That was rough.
- [30:59]
Rob
Or maybe it was the year that Harden won. But like again, some of the Russ OKC teams were just kind of exceptional fringe cases that we were trying to parse in real time.
- [31:07]
Justin
But similar cases.
- [31:09]
Kyle
Cocaine bear. Come on, man.
- [31:11]
Justin
Just like a similar MVP race though, where there wasn't like a clear cut dominant guy that we could point to and all of a sudden everyone was voting One Direction. It was real. Like I have the beholder to the point where I remember everyone just really digging deep in the crates for those advanced stats in order to make the case for Kawhi. I mean, if we don't get the top guys, I think this is going to be the same sort of knife fight where it's like, well, where do your preferences lie here? What do you value most? And I do think like these. I think we're kind of discrediting Jalen's case in this as well. Like let's say all of a sudden Tatum comes back, which at this point I assumed he would have been back by now considering the way people were talking about it, but seems like everything keeps being pushed back further and further. We'll see. But if like he comes back and gives them enough, especially defensively in order to help the record, and all of a sudden the Pistons record looks similar to the Celtics, I think then it'd be impossible to choose between Cade and Jalen at that point.
- [32:04]
Rob
It's True.
- [32:06]
Justin
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- [33:31]
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- [34:41]
Rob
of play Also have some fact checking for us in real time. The Russ season 2017. The Thunder were the 6 seed that year. Somehow, though, not the worst season for a reigning mvp. There were two seasons worse. One Bob Pettit. Shout out to Bob Pettit. The one that's surprising to me, though, is a Kareem MVP season with the Lakers in 76, in which the Lakers were a sub 500 team. But Kareem is Kareem. So I guess sometimes that's just the way it goes.
- [35:10]
Justin
Is there anyone else you guys want to talk about here? I had Donovan Mitchell down. I guess you could talk in Edwards.
- [35:15]
Rob
Yeah.
- [35:16]
Justin
Any other.
- [35:17]
Kyle
Like you said, digging the crates. Justin, do you think you got me thinking? Do you think that since we've lost that we don't. We're out of the, like, physical media era? The people who were snobs about digging in crates for vinyl, have they transitioned over to basketball and just become stat nerds? Do you think? Like, if we had a cult, a cultural allocation. I just. You got my wheel spinning there for a second. So those dorks, those, like, insufferable dorks, you know, who were in high fidelity, like Rob, you know those types of dorks.
- [35:45]
Rob
Other Rob I assume you're talking about.
- [35:47]
Kyle
Right?
- [35:48]
Justin
This is just turning into an LCD sound system song just happening all in front of us.
- [35:53]
Rob
I feel like the digging in some crates guys in sports terms are the people who are creating Twitter accounts right now of, like, remembering random college basketball players via their highlight clips. Like, that is the digging.
- [36:05]
Justin
There's an Instagram account that just digs up old TRL, like 1 through 10, and it just goes through them all. I would just live in that environment if it was just playing all around me, like, had my eyes, like, pressed open like that. That's how I want to go out.
- [36:20]
Kyle
There's a dude who posts Sports center segments of college basketball, and I watch them almost every single time. They're like Georgetown 71, UConn 63, and it's just Craig Kilborn rattling off the stats derailment. Okay. The question that you asked before that, though, it was a good one.
- [36:36]
Justin
I don't even remember. It's been like, I think we were
- [36:39]
Rob
talking about the other candidates. I think we've covered basically every reasonable op, like, option on the board. I guess Kevin Durant technically would be available in an option, but like, I don't know how he would win over some of the other names we've already mentioned.
- [36:51]
Justin
I think the only other other that deserves mentioning is probably Mitchell, if only because the Cavs might go on a little bit of a run here. I, I think like he has a certain case, probably the best individual season he's had thus far. I do worry in terms of like his story to tell at this point, which is a big part of this, whether you want to accept it or not. Harden coming in and then propelling them and cleaning things up for them I do think is probably going to muddle his case as the most valuable player in the world. Curious overall though, like, what do you guys think there? Because I also think like the Cavs, if you want to talk about the Cavs real quick, like they have some stuff to figure out here and I think that Thunder game was a prime example of that for sure.
- [37:31]
Rob
I mean I think Donovan Mitchell has been fucking awesome this season and that got a little lost in the shuffle when the Cavs overall were still trying to find themselves where their defense wasn't holding up on this night or that where their offensive flow wasn't where we're used to it being. But he has been routinely and consistently the best thing going for that team and measured up every step of the way to your Jalen Brunson's and your Tyrese Maxis and frankly even your Kade Cunninghams in terms of the like sort of individual season they've been having. I, I totally with you though, jb, in terms of the storytelling aspect of award voting. And I kind of wonder if James Harden might have the more compelling story as an end of season award. Not that he's going to be in the MVP race, but I think Harden could join that weird fringe group of players who don't make All Star but do make do make all NBA. Like he, he could end up like on a third team all of a sudden and it would totally track because he has been productive enough. He was good enough for the Clippers and now all of a sudden if he joins this team and they've just been, I mean, routinely waxing people until they ran up against the Thunder. And I do want to kind of dig into that a little bit too, as you mentioned, Justin, but Harden is making like a transformative impact in a way that, yeah, I don't think the Donovan Mitchell MVP talk is going to be to be as loud or as boisterous as it otherwise Might have been.
- [38:45]
Kyle
I feel like we were doing batting practice and Rob just like was throwing fastballs and then he just put some spin on it. I was like, oh, okay, Harden. Whoa. I think the Mitchell thing is interesting because Harden joining the team, I think it's. It's sort of tracing this thing with. With Mitchell's ideal peak archetype, which is, is he the best player on a team that wins a title? It's like he's very, very good. I just feel like that is that you're kind of drawing the line where he butts up against is. You know what? He probably is at his peak, which is probably he is in tandem with another guy, like a Harden who is an MVP level player, as we've seen, and he comes and joins his team. So we're seeing kind of play out in real time of like what Mitchell's peak is. Is that unfair to Mitchell, do you think?
- [39:31]
Justin
No, I don't think so. I think that's completely accurate. I mean, as we've seen time and time again, like, it seemed like Mitchell is at his best when there really aren't any other options. And he kind of digs things out of the mud for a team. But ultimately, I don't know if it's enough to spur a team to the type of results that you want in order to compete at the highest level. And I think last year's postseason is a prime example of that. The Cavs overall, though, we should talk about because they've had a pretty fascinating just couple of games with Harden already. The Thunder game was fascinating because on the one hand, I thought it showed a lot of heart in a way that they probably didn't have earlier in the season to come back after getting absolutely slugged in the face from that first quarter from the Thunder, but then just like slowly bringing. Bringing it back. Like I don't think an earlier version of the Cavs would have done that. And it clearly seems like they're. They have an emotional zest that they didn't have before, let's say. Having said that, I just. At a certain point, do we need to just like completely just deal with this front court all of a sudden? Because it just feels like either Allen is optimized with Harden because they have such a synergy. Harden is so good at just like bringing out the best of traditional role man Big. And Alan was playing so well, but all of a sud. Mobley comes back in and just feels like they're stepping on each other a little bit more than they should. And I do wonder if, like, this is really the. The breaking point for a conversation I think we've been having already and expected to probably have a conclusion to, like, even this season already.
- [40:56]
Rob
Yeah, I think they pretty clearly don't have alternatives to do that right now. Like, you can't just diminish an Evan Mobley's role and have just wave Evan Mobley or even just like, you know, have Dean Wade pick up the slack. Like, that's just not a very viable option. Even though Dean Wade is now like, in part the starting small forward of this team, it seems like Kenny Atkinson is trying to play around with those ideas of, like, who. Who fits with both these two guards, which is now like a James Harden alignment and these two bigs and fills that sweet spot in between them most naturally. And I think Mobley is a huge reason why that is challenging sometimes. And specifically the mobile Allen tandem, which I want to give it time because Mobley and Harden have played like, I think, literally nine minutes together to this point, just with Mobley ducking in and out of the lineup over the last couple games. So we'll see how it goes. And the Thunder are naturally going to be the place where that looks the worst just because of everything they put on you defensively. Like, if you don't have a lot of guys on the floor who are making quick, instant creative decisions and are aggressive with the ball, the Thunder just going to eat you alive. And so a lineup that's like a little big and a little blundering and still trying to feel out these new synergies with hardening, not ideal for running up against the Thunder. And I thought not only did they show some of that life that you mentioned, jv and just like, responding to what they encountered in the first half of that game, but flipping Dean Wade for Sam Merrill in the second half as the starting three, I thought opened some things up for them offensively and made them, like, a little better suited to combat exactly what OKC is doing. And that might be kind of what it is for the Cavs the rest of the way. Like a revolving door of. Of Dean Wade makes sense here at the three because we can get away with not having as much offensively, but we really need Sam Merrill on this night. But maybe we really need Keon Ellis in these other matchups where, like, we need someone to chase around a guard and he's gonna have to play some minutes. At the three. There are no easy answers, but I think Harden sort of changes the dynamics of what you want at a lot of those spots.
- [42:51]
Kyle
The defensive thing that you mentioned there at the end with Ellis is one of the things that fascinates me when I look at the playoff picture for this for the east. And you. You look at a Cade, and you look at a Jalen Brown, who looked like the kind of predominan primary, you know, perimeter creators since T. Tatum is out, since Halberton is out, even Jalen Brunson.
- [43:09]
Rob
Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Maxey, like, you need somebody to actually be an antidote for those scores.
- [43:14]
Kyle
Yeah. And they're the team that. That, you know, when you. When you look, it's like it felt like they had the. The fewest answers for those bigger guards is more what. I mean, the K because. And. And now, you know. But the. The Cavs are in an interesting situation where you would think that by adding hardening and having that synergy with Jared Allen and having it. That they would have some real flexibility to kind of stagger their lineups and have, like, this core thing, like, you know, playmaker big. Granted, their bigs aren't super versatile. You just wish that you could kind of play them together in a way, because they're both. You know, Mobley has shown signs that he might become a spacing big. It's just. It's created this odd sort of dissonance that hasn't really. I don't know, is it gonna. Is it gonna. How much of a problem? Because, like. Like, Tomlin's another guy that has kind of emerged. I'm just. You really need a shooting 4 to kind of unlock this. And it's like, it's unclear which way that's going to go.
- [44:07]
Justin
I mean, look across the aisle there with the thunder. Just feels like the thunder have really struck the balance of Hartenstein being the one delivering the blow and then Holmgren kind of doing more of the finesse stuff. On top of that, the stretch, the. The. Just the mobility defensively in order to pick that up. That really should be the template for what the Cavs could be, unfortunately. Just doesn't seem like they have the right mix there because Alan, I think, kind of waxes and wanes in terms of his physicality. It does feel like maybe it was the injuries early on. He had that weird thing where he had, like, both fingers were hurt in the same way that Garland had both toes, and you could never tell which one. I don't know what the fuck was going on in Cleveland, but, like, it does feel like maybe if he's healthy enough and engaged enough and perhaps Sees his minutes diminishing. Like he's engaged in a way that he wasn't before. So maybe that clarifies itself. But I just don't know about Mobley in terms of like, offensively, like, seems like he took a step back as he typically does before he takes a big leap forward. And so he's taking more jumpers than he ever has before this season, but he's having less success, especially three point wise, than ever before than over the past couple years. And so I just don't know if they have it in to find the right mix. And if you're not going to do that, if you're not going to like really figure out something special, the best thing you could do is be big. Like if you're gonna have two bigs, you gotta be big. And they got pushed around a little bit on the boards last game. And so maybe it's the type of thing where like, at the, at the very least they're desperate enough to just go with what works. Like, do you get into a playoff situation, Evan Mobley isn't playing well, you just fucking pull him. Because that's the point that they're at with his team. With Mitchell on the clock and free agency in two years, I hope that's the case. But maybe they just kind of like do it on the fly. Maybe they just like lean into their versatility and just play who's at their best. That's probably their best approach at this point.
- [45:51]
Rob
I feel like this is a little harsh to Evan Mobley, who again is like coming off of injury into a game against the Thunder. And so it's like, yeah, he's been good this year. He, I think he's been okay. Like, he hasn't been a, he hasn't been a disaster. Right? Like, and he's still, he's still more productive than your other kind of like streamlined catch and finish types of bigs. Like, he, yeah, he's not as versatile, especially if you're trying to play him at the four full time. But, but they need him. Like, they need what he brings to the table. Defensively, they're trying to walk this very delicate line of whenever Harden's on the floor, they're trying to figure out their defensive balance overall. And I think this is one of the areas where in the Harden era of the Cleveland Cavaliers, what are the things you can do now that the Darius Garland era didn't allow you to do? And one of those things is cross matching Harden on threes and playing other guards, whether that's defense first or offense first or kind of whatever you want to prioritize and kind of, you know, re reimagine your lineup that way a little bit in terms of how you want to play those minutes at the three. And so there's still a lot of time, there's still a lot of opportunity. And I think most crucially, there just aren't that many teams in the east that are really gonna, like, press the Mobley Allen stuff that aggressively. Like, I think the Pistons are a bad matchup, and that would be a really tough one for them to run into, and they might just inevitably have to deal with it. But otherwise, like, I, I don't look at the Celtics as an unsolvable puzzle. I don't look at the Knicks as like a matchup that, that the Cavs couldn't handle under any circumstance. Like, those are good teams and good competition, but maybe by that point, Cleveland will be there and feel comfortable juggling all of these different priorities that they're trying to put together.
- [47:21]
Justin
Yeah. We didn't even talk about Kate's performance against the Knicks the other night, by the way.
- [47:25]
Rob
Holy.
- [47:26]
Justin
Absolutely. Heisman moment, like, sort of thing where it's just like, if we think the race is going to be close. I do think, like, standout performances like that do stick in your brain in ways that you don't want to admit, and that's just one of them. Like, I'm going to think about that pretty much the rest of the season because that was the type of like, this is a big game. I showed up and just absolutely decimated one of our top competitors that matters.
- [47:49]
Rob
It was a fuck you game. I'm just not sure who the fuck you was aimed at. Like, all of us, the world, anyone who doesn't take cater the Piston seriously, like, it just felt so forceful and in particular, like, OG Anunobi is trying to guard him him and it's just like, not working. Mikhail Bridges trying to guard him not working.
- [48:06]
Kyle
That was my big. From my notes on that game, they were just throwing these. This is why the Knicks win. Got these guys so that they could have. I imagine they probably had the Tatum Brown thing in mind, but Kate has sort of, you know, gone in here and filled up this space with Tatum being gone. But like, my goodness, man, I I OG Was helpless and it didn't matter. And the problem for the Knicks was, you know, Cade has gotten to the point where he's the type of player who and he showed this promise when he was younger. Granted, they had all the spatial kind of problems is if you put variables on the, on the chessboard that he can exploit, he will find them, like tactically, methodically, go and get them. And he was just doing that with the Knicks. Like, whether it was Carl. Carl was looked silly several times. Jalen's too small. And then you think to yourself, well, we just got to get OG or we got to get Mikhail. It's like he can bully Mikhail. He went by OG he put OG in the, in the dust a couple times, like on that little hesitation, reject, screen dribble thing that he did. And I was just my, my kind of thing. I wanted to ask you all with the Pistons, though, you know, I was, I was looking at. And we kind of. The talking point we always circle back to is K carries such a load in terms of. And what is the other, you know, what's the other, like, mode of offense that they have that they can go to if. If there is a team in the east that can bother them? He has kind of diminished his pick and roll loads a little bit this year, but one of the, one of the things that has kind of occupied that space and been really productive for the Pistons is they turn people over. They're super, super disruptive. He's getting more transition and fast break points than he has ever at any other point in his career. If they get into a team that. Into a game in a series against a team that protects the ball really well and they can load up on Cade and bother him, I've kind of been wondering if that's an area where the Pistons can maybe get into a little bit of a slog, whereas the regular season kind of serves teams like this.
- [49:59]
Rob
Yeah.
- [50:00]
Kyle
That really generate a lot of transition. You know, I'm just, I'm kind of looking at that as a pain point for the Pistons and something for the, for them to answer. And they might answer it, but it, but it's going to be asked.
- [50:08]
Rob
I also think that's easier said than done against a defense that's this physical, like, yeah, it's great if you can take care of the ball and never turn it over, but these guys are all over you, bodying you at every step. And they like the fact that they set the tone for these games and then can thrive in it. Right. Like if, if the Pistons come out with their physicality and establish like, this is the way this game is going to be played and officiated and what's allowed, and then Cade can put up 30 to 40 points without relying on free throws. At all because he's so savvy, because he's able to get to his mid range, because he can beat guys even like OG one on one. I just think that establishes a level of dominance that other teams are going to have a really hard time contending with in the playoffs. And this is why for me, Cages feels like he is poised for a huge playoff in this particular way. I think what you're talking about in terms of transition play for the Pistons, Kyle, I kind of first noticed from Cade in last year's postseason where it felt like he had an understanding that the possessions are so hard to come by. In this series against the Knicks, I have to gun it every time there's a transition opportunity. And so he has like a, I think a good grasp of that like micro level aspect of things. But also when teams overload against him and they will, and frankly they have all regular season, he's shown the ability to kind of grit through that to get quality offense, but also the willingness to do it where he's not just passing out to the open man who is not a very good shooter in the corner like he is willing to. If this, if it's what it's called for. He will take 10 threes tonight and he will take 35 shots tonight and the Pistons will win because they have the defense to support it.
- [51:41]
Justin
That's really kind of one of the distinguishing marks of like a guy who not only is like a superstar, but understands his superstardom is that he modulates based on what he, his team needs and actually can fill a void by just like modulating his own performance in order to get there. I have been thinking though, post his press conference after that game, like, like, is he the best American player in the league right now? I did feel like it was probably a backdoor bad case for his MVP case because he was basically admitting like, oh, if, if these guys are healthy, it's probably not me, which I think we're probably going to return to at a certain point. But it did get me thinking because it really is him or ant.
- [52:24]
Rob
Yeah.
- [52:24]
Justin
At this point, I guess if you want to throw in Kawhi at his peak, but the fact that he's not available enough. I mean, probably just out of this
- [52:31]
Kyle
conversation, he's in it, but he's certainly
- [52:34]
Justin
talking about right now. Yeah, like who's playing the best basketball right now in the world as an American.
- [52:41]
Rob
I think it's still ant. I think, I think by a hair, but I think it's, it's getting closer and Closer by the day.
- [52:47]
Kyle
Your modulation comment, I think, is right on. And I think that that Knicks game was a great example of it. Like, I was charting his. His assists through that game, and most of them came after halftime. And he had been. That's after he had been bullying them. And that's just a basic pressure release thing that superst stars need to understand. You know, I'm gonna pummel you, and then you're gonna overreact to it, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna punish you for that. Yeah, that's just.
- [53:12]
Rob
That's the kind of thing, too. Kyle, we're over seven games. It's like, even game one, the defense is like, okay, we're gonna make Kate be a scorer. He punches them in the mouth, they veer the other way. He all of a sudden is setting everybody up. And then that.
- [53:25]
Justin
What.
- [53:25]
Rob
What that kind of puts in your brain as a defender is like a distrust in your gameplay. Right? It's like, well, we tried this, we tried that. What are we reaching for? That's going to work. And I think he's one of those really balanced creators where he positions opponents to kind of fall apart. If you play against him enough times in a row and he's smart enough and sees the floor well enough, where he just puts a lot of pressure on your group psychologically to hang together and believe in what you think should work.
- [53:51]
Justin
Here's a way to think about it. So Team USA coming up again, we'll just assume all the olds that were in last year's competition just sit out of it. Halliburton, probably not going to be available, actually has shingles all of a sudden, which is awful. Which is. Is tough for him. No, but I know people have had it. It's like, isn't it, like, tough to, like, touch your skin? Kyle, you haven't had shingles.
- [54:16]
Kyle
I had a girlfriend that had it, but I didn't go. You know, I don't.
- [54:19]
Rob
Guys, this cannot be a shingles pod. Like, we wish Harry Salad Burton the best, but we're not getting into shingles today.
- [54:24]
Justin
What if we did, like, a spoof on singles, but it was just shingles? It was just all about them navigating, having shingles.
- [54:32]
Kyle
Man, would you watch that?
- [54:34]
Rob
Welcome back, Justin Barrier.
- [54:37]
Justin
I just like pitching SNL sketches. Sketchy. Okay, sorry. So Team USA is up. You're in a boardroom with a bunch of white guys in slacks in Grant Hill. Because that's how that works. Who's your starting backcourt right now?
- [54:51]
Rob
Halliburton's off the table.
- [54:53]
Justin
Let's just. Yeah, let's assume that they're doing it right now. Your other options, just to kind of put this on the board. Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brunson, Jalen Brown, Tyrese Maxey, Devin Booker. So probably the prime candidates. Your, your backcourt. I, I think it's Ant and Cade. Right. If you had your pick of all these guys, that makes sense.
- [55:14]
Kyle
It's got to be ball screen competent guys who also have relocation shooting ability. And I was going to mention when, when Cade's catch and shoot stuff is on. Yeah, I mean he's in the conversation with the best players in the world. Like he's. You can't do anything with him. And right now Ant and K together could play together in a USA backcourt. I still think, you know, I know Steph's disqualified. I'm trying to pay homage to him, but I think that's. That hurts guys like Brunson. And you know, if we're talking about
- [55:43]
Rob
Team usa, like you simply have to mention the name Steph Curry. So I think it's totally fair under the circumstances. I don't care if he has to be in there on crutches.
- [55:52]
Justin
They would probably do the thing where they shoehorn like Brunson or Mitchell just to pay deference in. In like a three guard sort of lineup and then they just probably stock up with Bigs. But like, if you're forcing me to make the decision, I think it's those two, which I probably wouldn't have said even like a couple months ago.
- [56:10]
Rob
Yeah, but I think the combination of like, that's almost a different criteria of like who's suited for international play. But Ant and Cade have the same thing in common, which is both hold up defensively and Ant can be super aggressive defensively if his role allows for it. He can really be like the Bulldog ruining a future Tony Ku coach's life. And I think Cage is not being a target in the way that a Jalen Brunson would be a target or even a Tyrese Maxey would be a target. It's just a different way of life when you're talking about international basketball.
- [56:39]
Kyle
And Booker needs to be mentioned too. I mean, he's a great international style player, I think. And you know, they could all three be on the floor. Well, maybe not all three on the floor, but I think they could be mentioned for sure. Yeah.
- [56:48]
Justin
Yeah. All right. Since we've kind of powered through basically every good basketball player and team, why don't we take a break and come back and talk about some bad ones. All right, so we talked a lot about Kawhi Leonard as an MVP candidate. We have to talk about Ben Matherin, who all of a sudden looks like he might be an MVP getting to down the road. What's funny is when that Pacers trade happened, I did kind of have one of those, like, huh. He's the type of second draft guy that I think deserves another look. Because it's funny. Like, I, I think what's going to end up happening is a lot of these really good deep teams are just going to shed their skin and a lot of other, like, more mediocre teams are going to reap the benefits of it. We've seen that a lot with the Thunder where it's just like, yeah, here's Usman Jang. He was like a pick before Jalen Williams. You guys could just have him because we just can't play him. Matheran's one of those guys where like started off his career strong, had actual minutes in the Finals, like impact minute in an NBA Finals last year in
- [57:48]
Rob
Game 7 of the Finals, like, was a lifeline.
- [57:51]
Justin
But the Pacers just play such a specific way that he doesn't necessarily align with. But I was just like, man, any team that can kind of like, that has the, the space for him might be onto something there. And it looks like Rob, like the, the Clippers were right to identify him as a guy to even match salary.
- [58:07]
Rob
Oh, clearly. I mean, Ben Matheran, like, as a scorer just kind of rules. Like, he's awesome to watch. He's a bulldog when he wants to be post All Star break. He's leading the league in free throw attempts because he's just driving and driving and driving. And maybe most crucially for the Clippers right now, they just need somebody who can handle the ball. Someone need someone who can be aggressive with it and not in a traditional you bring up an ISO and go to work kind of way, but when the ball swings to him on the weak side, like, he makes something of all those opportunities. And how aggressive he can be in those moments, I think is one of the reasons why they're getting through this stretch where they obviously no longer have James Harden, but they yet don't yet have Darius Garland. And so here comes Ben Matheran putting up like 22 a game and making it look frankly, awfully easy to do it.
- [58:51]
Kyle
But yeah, we were talking about, I mean, that kind of instigated the Jokic coverage comment because the, the balance Shunus that might speak. We don't, we don't have time to go into that. The Nuggets defensive problems there and, and the, and the anchoring. But no, I mean, Jokic like dropping and soft showing on Matheran was just a field day. I mean he just scored over and over and over again on them. And it, man, his separate, yeah, the pull up stuff he takes, it seems like he complicates his life on purpose. Kind of similar to another guy we're going to talk about in a moment, but like in a way that he could tidy up over time. But man, his separation is just, it's nasty, it's violent. He's, he's a tough cover and it is, it's interesting because you're the Pacers and you're balancing. You do need guys like that who maybe they're maybe kind of to the side of what your philosophy is, but you get in a scheme gridlock with a good team and you just need somebody who can go out there and, you know, turn milk into butter at times and make something out of nothing. And that's, that's who he is. It'll be interesting to see how much more he can expand from here.
- [59:53]
Justin
He does have a physicality and a bully ball sort of mentality that I think a lot of these other similar type of like high scoring, like I, I just really want to take the game by the throat sort of wings sort of have. And he's just incredibly demonstrative about that. Like, I mean, LeBron quotes from before are what they are. He was talking about being the best player in the league when he first got there. Clearly has the mindset of that. But I do wonder, especially for him and players of his player type, what is the ultimate ceiling there? Because it feels like he does want things to revolve around him, which is probably why he's coming off the bench at this point. Do we ever see him as the type of guy who's going to be playing alongside Kawhi from the start? Especially because like now that he's entering restricted free agency, you do have to pay him. And so this is probably the same quandary Pacers have where it's like, oh, he does something very well, but how well can he do this at like the highest level?
- [60:49]
Rob
Yeah, I think especially because you're paying him in who or whoever pays him this summer is going to be paying him based on off intrigue. Right. It's off of these kinds of glimpses. Game 7. Not who he is night to night tonight, but who he is when you need him to Be that sort of counter punch. And I think Kawhi, weirdly enough, is like a pretty good place to put him. Right. Someone who is a little more isolation driven in terms of the way they create offense. And Mather is such a self starter on the other side of the floor that it just kind of makes sense. So you could play him off Kawhi, you could bring him off the bench or continue to, I think, for other teams or if you want to, like, zoom out as far as what the Clipper offense is going to be for the next five years, there is that element where I think, Kyle, you absolutely nailed it as far as, like, he can feel a little bit like an offshoot or an accessory that is built to address those moments where everything else breaks down. But can he be a part of your fundamental philosophy when everything goes right? That's kind of always been the Ben Matheran question.
- [61:47]
Kyle
Yeah. We'll just have to see more of a sample size to get a better feel for that because, you know, when he was running, you know, when he was butting up against what the Pacers were trying to do, that I don't. I think we'll need a different sample size is kind of what my. My point is there. And. And with Garland coming back to. I honest, I honestly kind of wonder if. Matherin. Maturin. Maturin. I tried to make a weird joke there that really did not work. Thank God that didn't get captured.
- [62:13]
Rob
Jesus Christ.
- [62:14]
Kyle
If. If he does continue to evolve in this promising way, I think it could really benefit Garland too, in a way where Garland, you know, we were trying to do this dual small guard thing with him forever. Him playing against two kind of wing size scores, I think could balance out into something pretty interesting.
- [62:32]
Justin
The Clippers definitely reset, I think, at the right time. I think, like, there's a lot of fretting, including for me, over wide, like kind of break up a team that was probably playing the best basketball in the NBA at that point. But it really seems like they got ahead of what was going to be an inevitable decline. And they do have, like, kind of an interesting construction. How much of that is. Because they kind of felt the heat coming around the other corner and all of a sudden they had to, like, put all their stuff into the shredder in order to just get something out of it. Like just like close their Cayman island bank accounts and just put it under like a rock or something. It definitely seems like it paid off to the 2022 draft. It's pretty fascinating because there are players Here, but there are a lot of them. They're still kind of like, where are we going to end up here, Paulo? I think the number one pick, first and foremost, we got to talk about that at some point because magic just have not figured their self out. But numbers Mathering goes number six overall, right behind Jaden Ivy. Behind Keegan Murray. Number seven is Shaden Sharp. Similar type of players, also from Canada, scoring wings, different flavors of the same sort of type. If you guys were to choose from this point Forward today, Monday, February 23rd, from this point forward, who are you taking the career off of, Mahen or Sharp?
- [63:50]
Rob
I will answer this question as soon as you put money in the swear jar.
- [63:54]
Justin
No, no more swear.
- [63:56]
Rob
Even remotely having a place. You're like, but what about Shane Sharp?
- [64:00]
Justin
They were drafted right next to each other.
- [64:03]
Rob
I guess that's fair.
- [64:04]
Kyle
I could defend Justin a little bit on this one. I think they are pretty similar archetypes. I think it's fair.
- [64:09]
Justin
Thank you, Kyle.
- [64:13]
Rob
I think, I mean this is a, this is a tough one because I think Shaden to me is still more likely to be a star than Ben Matheran is. But Ben Matheran has already proven he can be useful to teams competing at the highest levels. And I am enough of a Shade and Sharp pessimist. I think I would take Matheran and kind of the security of. If nothing else, I know he can be a good sixth man. I know he's physical enough to be a good rebounder. I know he's a good enough driver to be a consistent source of offense beyond just relying on the, on the come and go of his jump shot and gets to the free throw line enough to anchor some of that stuff. So I think I would take Matheran. But I'm saying that acknowledging that Sharp's high end, I think is even higher than Ben Mathurin's is.
- [64:54]
Kyle
It's tough because you really do have to account for the. He scored those points in a, in a, in a finals, in a game, seven colored glasses. And it's like if you just play the. I don't know. Well, I'll get back to you. It's. I, I think.
- [65:14]
Rob
Can a guy wonder like, what is this metaphor? I don't understand.
- [65:18]
Kyle
What is that question, Rob? All right. Okay. So what do you want me to say, Periwinkle? Yes. If you claw machined, if you claw machined again to do it this way, Shane Sharp into that final, since they are so similar, could he, for the sake of the hypothetical, could he have done what Matherin did in that finals is how much of that is. Justin seems skeptical.
- [65:38]
Justin
I. I don't think it's anything with stakes. No, I don't think so.
- [65:42]
Kyle
Yeah, it's. Yeah. So I mean it's interesting because I kind of worked through this when it on that draft where I was trying to just get a clear idea of who Shaden is. And I think over time I feel a little better about this. Where I think I would take Matheran, I just trust Matheran's basketball sensibility a little more. I know the raw materials with Shaden are incredible. I mean he's such a. They're both terrific athletes but Shaden is a pretty special. He's special among special athletes. And that would make you think the shot creation. He could be a star. I would lean towards Matheran I think in terms of like banking on their playmaking, like development.
- [66:18]
Justin
Yeah, I think, I think Matheran has the higher floor, Sharp has the higher ceiling. Shaden just has that thing. I don't know if you guys had this but like a guy in your high school or a gal who just like they just do everything so easily. It's like all of a sudden they step on a skateboard and they're just fucking kick flipping after trying it for two minutes. He's just like unnatural at everything. And because of that I think things just come easy to him. He just doesn't have the sort of like dog in him that Matheran and someone like Scoot has. But if he had that sort of mentality with his athleticism because it just like this guy just moves in a different speed than everybody else. So I probably bank on the talent while acknowledging that I'm probably gonna bust out like the bus trade on Sharp is way higher than Matheren who seems like he's like. I think he's just going to be who he is. Right now I am concerned with both of them about the shooting. I do think Sharp stroke is way more natural and but for whatever reason just doesn't translate math Runs is a little bit more perplexing because he started as a rookie just firing it up there and just seems to have kind of settled in this weird place where he's like a fine shooter. He's actually doing more damage probably as a mid range shooter. And so that worries me a little bit it. But ultimately I think he's gonna. I, I think I have a clear sense of him being a good player. Whereas Sharp. I don't know if he's going to
- [67:37]
Rob
be a good player. Yes. And that's a tough one to square when the best version of Sharp is so much more valuable, I think than the best version of Mahen. And so yeah, it all comes down to your risk appetite and like how you're valuing those kinds of outcomes in the present tense. I think the Clippers have to be thrilled with how easy a fit Ben Mahen has been into everything that they do. And even like, I just love even like the Chris Dunn synergy. Right. Like of you see Chris Dunn being a bulldog on the ball and Matheran plays passing lanes pretty well and he has the athleticism in the open court. He just fits so much of what they're trying to do even in this weird like, you know, makeshift state of the Clippers.
- [68:15]
Kyle
Yeah, I went and you all were talking about them, but the. They are, they are such similar players. Like I went and checked their assisted usage which basically just like your get off ball sensibility. And yeah, Sharp is 0.5 which is 5th percentile in the league and Matheran was 0.6. So they're both down there in the same. They want to score and that's what they're going to try to do first and foremost. And then if you make them pass, they will.
- [68:39]
Justin
You're saying this is a good question independent of my preferences. I just think it's.
- [68:46]
Kyle
You want praise?
- [68:47]
Justin
I'm talking to Rob via you. Okay.
- [68:50]
Rob
As is often the case. I just think you could have brought up any other guard, any other wing in the league and you happened to pick a Portland Trailblazer the guy picked right after him.
- [68:59]
Justin
Yeah, it's a little noticeable. Just, just quickly before we get to our last topic here, Yannick Hive. Are we all in?
- [69:07]
Kyle
Yannick Boom.
- [69:08]
Rob
It's. It's so real at this point.
- [69:10]
Justin
It is striking just a bouncy, physical guy. Like I think he's going to be starting at center maybe even as soon as next year.
- [69:19]
Rob
I mean Brook has had great moments but like Yannick's future with the team looks so bright right now. He, I mean he's obviously very mobile, but his poise just like putting the ball on the floor shoulder into a guy hitting a little floater in the lane is impressive in and of itself. But also like the. The sub headline of Ben Matheran almost hits a crazy game winning three against the Magic is Janet Conan Niederhauser almost has a. Did have an almost game saving block to set up Ben Matheran for that three. And that shit is just happening with alarming regularity. Like he's just making huge impact Plays all the time at this point.
- [69:54]
Kyle
Jannek Kona Niederhauser. It just sounds like the lyrics to, like, a folk song from, like, Switzerland or some Janekone. Niederhauser. It just. It's just a wild name. But, yeah, his. His ball security was the thing that really worried me the most. It just had Big Willie, Collie Stein, Javail vibes, and I was just kind of like, I don't know about this, but you're right. I mean, he's been a quick study in a way that's been really impressive.
- [70:17]
Justin
All right, so speaking of players who or may not be good, I think this is a perfect time to talk about Cam Thomas.
- [70:23]
Rob
Yeah, it would be funny if we had a recurring bit at the end of every podcast, Justin, where you're like, do you guys want to talk about Cam Thomas? And me and Kyle just say no, and we leave.
- [70:32]
Justin
Listen, I'll be honest. I. I just. I have a thing for Cam Thomas, perhaps, like, because I'm the ultimate Zaga, and I do like players that other people don't like.
- [70:43]
Kyle
You say Zaga?
- [70:44]
Rob
Was that a Boston accent? Zaga.
- [70:46]
Justin
I'm a Zaga.
- [70:47]
Rob
Yeah. Oh, boy.
- [70:48]
Kyle
Oh, wow.
- [70:49]
Justin
All right.
- [70:50]
Kyle
You got on me for Maturin. Come on.
- [70:53]
Justin
I like a Zag. And I do feel like Cam might be a little bit of a distressed asset that I can. I could buy low in, but I do think, like, clearly the microwave off the bench. I will take 20 shots a game. Somehow, scorer is a type that is valuable to a certain team. The Bucks happen to be that certain team because they don't have enough talent in order to scratch together enough wins to even make the play in the East. And I think Cam is. Is better than those type of guys, like Cole Anthony, that they tend to cycle through four or five of in a given season. Am I wrong?
- [71:28]
Rob
You're not wrong. Look, he's clearly been successful doing exactly the thing they need him to do. And right now, the version of that thing is literally four dudes standing around while Cam Thomas cooks. And it is a sight to behold. It's clearly effective. And I want to say, to give all credit where it's due, this has been one of the first times in basically Cam's entire career where his team has been better with him on the court. And so it's not just like, I'm putting up numbers to put up numbers. It's like, this is driving the winning of a team that short. Opponents might not be taking the most seriously at this point in time. But they're trying to stop Cam Thomas and nobody can seem to do it. Like that is real. Within a certain sample of, you know, 20ish minutes a game, he's capable of
- [72:08]
Kyle
creating these, these contained situations where nobody can check him because they're. That's. I mean, he's good at doing that. It's just the Bucks are in this unique situation where they really could use someone to come in and be a star level player who, you know, we were just heaping all the accolades on all these guys who do it and play chess and blah, blah, blah, do all these great things that stars do. It's like Cam Thomas just, he does. He, he kind of. I was trying to think of a musician that reminded, like Dave Navarro. I was trying to think of somebody who can come in and fit the part. But then you're like, once you need like to be in a band for 10 years, you're like, I'm not, we're not doing this. And he. There was a play where. And also this is the end of the season. This. So this sample size where we're talking about this, it's like, we have to do it, we have to talk about it. It always has an asterisk. I know people love when I interrupt myself, but there was a play in, in the Bucks game against. I forget who they were even playing, but he comes down and just dribble, dribble, dribble, shoots on the. And I, I watched and then lined it up against a few different sequences where he had the ball. The Bucks bench sat. So they were down 20 points, but they sat completely motionless for like 30 seconds. No one moved, no one spoke. I was like, this is just a dejected organization. Like, this is where we are. They've turned to this man. It was like I just found it deeply comical.
- [73:30]
Rob
There are moments like that. But again, I do want to give credit because I think it's not just a Cam thing. The Bucks all of a sudden have like an actual bench that plays with real energy for basically the first time all season. Like the Gary Harris, Cole Anthony, Amir, Coffee, Gary Trent types. Like half of those guys are gone and half of them have been completely marginalized in the rotation. And here comes the aforementioned Usman Jang, here comes Pete Nance, here comes Cam Thomas and like, these aren't world beating players, although Cam Thomas can appear to be one from time to time. But they're just giving the Bucks some semblance of definite depth, some semblance of an actual NBA rotation. And it's amazing what good that can do when you have guys who actually play at an NBA level of even just intensity over the course of a game?
- [74:12]
Justin
I'm telling you, like, it's a real trickle down economics thing happening in the NBA where good teams just cannot roster all of the good players that they draft.
- [74:21]
Rob
I thought you were talking like the Cam or Cam is the Reagan. You know, like really, it just kind of works out some way.
- [74:27]
Justin
No, but like, Cam is probably a different case. But some of those other guys are just like, other teams just can't have these guys. And so if they're going to go anywhere, it's actually a bad team where they can immediately step into playing time. And all of a sudden Usman Jang is just like having these breakout nights. Cam is getting featured in a way that they wouldn't in Brooklyn, not because they didn't have the opportunity, but like, they just kind of just ran out of just emotional bandwidth for. For dealing with that situation. And I don't know, the Bucks all of a sudden, like, there's something there. Perhaps they're just spurred into action because they saw that Giannis, as of today, is committed to them. They're just like, wow, this is our moment. He might come back and play and actually want to be here for a couple weeks. You think that's what's happening?
- [75:15]
Rob
I want the calds on Giannis giving a about Camp Thomas. That's what I want. Can we, can we get that?
- [75:20]
Kyle
But I knew the odds of cow she getting mentioned at the end of this were really, really good. I just was waiting for Rob to say it. Sorry.
- [75:28]
Rob
The low hanging fruit for sporting abominations. Like, I'm just going to grab it every time.
- [75:33]
Justin
Anything else you guys have from the past four days before we get out here?
- [75:39]
Kyle
I had my gym story that I was going to tell.
- [75:41]
Rob
Yeah, what happened to the gym with you?
- [75:43]
Justin
Gym corner, Kyle.
- [75:45]
Kyle
This happened. Yeah. Jim corner. We've had some good gym stories on here. I think hopefully this will rise to that. No, we take my son to the pool a lot. It's very efficient. Energy burner. Parents know this if they're listening. Get his little ass worn out on the weekends. So no. So we go in there and, you know, we're swimming for probably 40, 45 minutes and at some point everyone is told to get out of the pool because someone has pooped in the pool. So everybody, you know, we don't know how long this is going to last. I'm probably not going to get it back in. But we were like, hey, you know, Julian, go chill for a little bit. Go watch a show on my phone or wherever we're gonna sit because we, like. It's cold here. It's nice to sit and end it with the hot tub. So I was like, I'm gonna get my 10, 15 minutes of hot tub. So a lot of parents have congregated there. The pool is cleared out. Everybody's on the side. It's a lot of people. There are a lot of. Kind of just meandering in their own world. Old dudes at my gym and at every gym, they're just kind of sauntering through. I always say one of the. One of the games I play at my gym is just this. Don't see old balls. That's one of the real challenging games I play. It's like Frogger. Yeah, yeah. Just avoid seeing old balls. But no, he had his clothes on. But this guy gets in at the far end of the pool, and he gets in, and the poop is over on the total other side where it is. And they're cleaning it up, and this old guy just gets in the pool while everybody else and the. The lifeguards are like, no, hey, don't get. Don't get. And he's like, well, he's like, dismissing them. I don't even think he was. He was speaking like. Like, I don't even know, but not English, but. So maybe that was part of the problem. So he is walking across the pool towards where the poop is. He. He's like. They're like, no, get out over here. He walks through. This was just this incredibly comical scene that's unfolding while all these parents are in the. In the hot tub watching this. He walks through where the. Cleaning the poop up gets out of the pool, and it's like this little kid family area with, like, toys and everything. So he's out of the pool now, and he acts like he's gonna walk towards the hot tub. And everybody's like, no, no, no, no. Incredible moment of chaos that I was like, could have absolutely been on an episode of Curb. So God bless. It was great. It was. We had to laugh afterwards, but I didn't want to be in the pool with old poopy guy, so.
- [77:57]
Rob
Well, what's. What's the statute of limitations on the poop in the pool, though, Kyle? Because, like, I. I gotta tell you, they're not gonna drain that pool.
- [78:04]
Justin
Pool. No.
- [78:06]
Kyle
I don't know how it works. I kind of don't want to know.
- [78:09]
Rob
Powder just never go Back.
- [78:11]
Justin
No. There's no way I would step foot in that gym again.
- [78:14]
Rob
Here's the problem. I assure you, every public pool you've ever been in, somebody has pooped in it.
- [78:18]
Justin
So going to a public pool. What do you think? I'm a single adult, man. You think I'm going to a public pool?
- [78:23]
Rob
I think at some point in your life, you have, like, you know, you paid a Club Premium, $85 for the day to go sit out in a chair and some sun. And that pool somebody has pooped in, too.
- [78:34]
Kyle
The nicest pool in the world has had poop in it at some point, I betcha. I would betcha. So there's a real avoidable.
- [78:40]
Justin
There's a real soaking sauna sort of scene out here in Portland because it's so gray and rainy most of the winter. People just go and sit in, like, the. The hot tub or whatever. Cold plunge together. Not doing that. I'm not just, like, hanging out.
- [78:55]
Rob
No.
- [78:55]
Justin
In an intimate little, like, circle with strangers. Like, what is this?
- [79:01]
Rob
You're anti bathhouse? Is what I'm hearing.
- [79:05]
Justin
Yeah.
- [79:06]
Kyle
What I've heard. Yeah.
- [79:11]
Justin
You just want to go to the poop version of Jaws where everyone is just, like, running scared from a looming turd.
- [79:19]
Rob
That part doesn't seem great either. I've got to be honest with you.
- [79:22]
Kyle
I'm just never going to forget this guy arguing with lifeguards in, like, Turkish as he walks through poop. So what a special moment.
- [79:32]
Rob
It's one of those things where, like, I don't agree with what he did, but I do. I will defend my death, his right to do it. Like, if he's on the other side of a giant public pool, like, is he really at risk? I don't even know.
- [79:45]
Kyle
He just journeyed to walk through the poop.
- [79:48]
Rob
Okay, that. Through the poop is not good. How did we get here? This is where all Ken Thomas conversations lead. Talking about pooping in the pool. Like, there is a metaphor for someone who wants to mine it, but. But I will not be the one to do it.
- [79:59]
Kyle
Somebody will do it for us, I'm sure.
- [80:01]
Justin
Yeah, why don't we leave that to the comment section and why don't we wrap it there? We'll be back on Thursday. We'll talk to you then. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. We'll talk to you next time. 21/in present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.com in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-887-7770, 7867. Monster Energy Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra. That's the OG it kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing, but Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise and Vice Guava, and they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the White can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single one is Zero Sugar. Tap the banner to learn more.
- [81:24]
Kyle
This week, the PGA Tour's Best Players Go Prime Time with TGL, presented by SoFi in doubleheader action, Atlanta Drive takes on both Boston Common Golf and Los Angeles golf club, plus two primetime matchups on Tuesday.
- [81:36]
Justin
Keep up it's golf tune in Monday
- [81:37]
Kyle
and Tuesday at 5pm and 9pm Eastern only on ESPN, ESPN2 and the ESPN app.