The Ewing Theory, Featuring Ja, Trae, and Paolo

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show: Real Ones

Episode: "The Ewing Theory, Featuring Ja, Trae, and Paolo"

Date: December 9, 2025
Panel: Logan Murdock (host), Raja Bell, Howard Beck

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Overview

This lively episode of "Real Ones" dives deep into the famous "Ewing Theory"—the idea that teams may sometimes perform better after losing a star player. Logan, Raja, and Howard explore how (and whether) the theory applies to three current NBA stars: Ja Morant, Trae Young, and Paolo Banchero. The conversation is rounded out by a wild Desmond Bane moment, a debate about East vs. West free agency, and a fun, nostalgic mailbag segment.

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Main Discussion: The Ewing Theory in the Modern NBA

What is the Ewing Theory?

[02:27] Logan Murdoch

"It was made famous by our distinguished boss Bill Simmons and it suggests that a team performs better after a highly publicized star player leaves despite initial expectations of decline... the team stops relying on one individual and plays more cohesively."

Ja Morant & The Memphis Grizzlies

Key Points:

• Grizzlies' record is notably strong without Ja Morant going back several seasons.
• Discussion on whether the "Ewing Theory" truly applies or if other factors are at play (team culture, Ja's off-court issues, and contract/salary cap context).
• Advanced metrics show Ja's on-court impact is that of a solid starter—not elite max-level.

Quotes & Insights:
[06:10] Howard Beck:

"Sometimes a team, and maybe the Grizzlies are applicable here, if you've got enough talent otherwise and the ball moves more without your ball-dominant star, sometimes everybody's that much better a little bit percentage better."

[09:19] Logan Murdoch:

"Yes, Zach Edie is coming into the fold and he's balling out right now. Jaren Jackson is playing well... and they're defensively so much better with Ja off the court, but that is just enhanced by the fact of the off court stuff."

Timestamps:

• Ja Morant discussion kicks off: [02:27]
• Deep dive into impact and locker room dynamics: [06:10 - 11:01]
• Trade and long-term fit scenarios: [18:15 - 22:43]

Memorable Exchange:
[15:48] Howard Beck, on Ja’s Difficult Fit:

"Are they better off without Ja, Raja? Like I'm not saying this is a value judgment on Ja as a player. Overall, he's a good player. Is he great enough... or what the Grizzlies doing now—proof that they might be better in the long run without him?"

Trae Young & The Atlanta Hawks

Key Points:

• The Hawks have hovered around .500 with Trae, but recently found success with him out of the lineup.
• Defensive liability cited as a major reason for skepticism over his "star" impact.
• The rise of Jalen Johnson possibly reshaping the franchise’s direction.

Quotes & Insights:
[25:21] Howard Beck, on Jalen Johnson’s emergence:

"Jalen Johnson... is turning into a freaking star before our eyes...do we have too many North Stars? Can they function well together?"

[28:51] Howard Beck, comparing Trae to Ja:

"Trae has a better chance of meshing, and he's also been in the league longer...Maybe, again, benefit the doubt. Maybe he's willing to play a different way..."

[31:48] Raja Bell, on the importance of gaining teammate respect:

"For Trae Young to look at a situation and acknowledge, you know, that he needs to play a different kind of way... he has to in practice see Jalen Johnson in a way that—like, that's where you earn that respect..."

Timestamps:

• Trae Young case opens: [24:13]
• Defensive rating and advanced stats: [27:34]
• Chemistry discussion, Kobe/Wade/Lebron analogies: [29:54 - 31:48]
• Hypothetical Giannis trade debate: [34:44 - 38:52]

Memorable Moment:
[39:25] Logan Murdoch, on Atlanta’s potential celebration with Giannis:

"That celebration down Peachtree will be fucking [insane]."

Paolo Banchero & The Orlando Magic

Key Points:

• Magic show winning record without Paolo, leading to "Ewing Theory?" questions.
• On/off numbers suggest the team plays well with Franz Wagner at the helm.
• Consensus: Way too early to make any branding statements; Paolo is still developing his game.

Quotes & Insights:
[41:59] Raja Bell:

"Not finished enough of a product as a player for me to make that call... at this stage in someone's career it's not fair to kind of make that assessment."

[44:31] Howard Beck:

"Superstars have more of a responsibility to their team than simply putting up massive numbers... your efficiency matters, your defense matters, how you work with your teammates matters, your leadership matters..."

Timestamps:

• Paolo discussion: [39:31 - 45:49]

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Sidebar: Desmond Bane & "The Dodgeball Play"

[46:00 - 54:13]

• Recap: Desmond Bane throws the ball at OG Anunoby in a game, earning a fine (and a "dodgeball" comparison).
• Raja, with experience in court altercations, is at a loss to explain the move:

  "I don't really know what happened there. It was like he short-circuited for a minute. It was, it was pretty bizarre..." [47:37 Raja Bell]

• OG’s quote: "I was confused at first, then it was funny. I like Desmond. He's a good dude." [48:41 Logan quoting OG Anunoby]
• Logan and Howard debate the level of aggression then vs. now in the league.

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Mailbag Highlights

[54:47 - 72:57]

Why Don't Stars Want to Play in the East?

• Panel agrees weather, culture, and longstanding Western Conference front office dominance play a role, but most player movement is via trade, not free agency.
• Howard Beck:

  "When you look at where the stars are, most of them... it's, they're with the team that drafted them..." [60:09 - 62:13]

Players You Wish You Appreciated More

• Tyler from the mailbag asks about players they wish they’d appreciated more in the moment.
• Logan: Lamar Odom, Ron Artest.
• Raja: Jason "White Chocolate" Williams, Nick Van Exel, Vince Carter.
• Howard: Tracy McGrady (“just an aesthetically pleasing basketball player”), also mentions what-if with Grant Hill & T-Mac pairing in Orlando.
• Fun stories about covering/playing against these stars, and the surreal process of the panelists moving from fans to participants/journalists.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Ja Morant:

  "He's just not providing the impact you'd think he would based on his stature, his draft position, his salary." – Howard Beck [11:01]

• On Trae Young:

  "His best run was during the 2021 Eastern Conference finals... since then, he hasn't been good, and he's had the bug of a coach killer." – Logan Murdoch [31:48]

• About Paolo:

  "If we're not going to be seeing the improvement in terms of efficiency and shot selection and so on and so forth, I mean it would be fair in a couple years. But right now I don't think I'm ready to do that." – Raja Bell [42:31]

• Desmond Bane’s Dodgeball Play:

  "He didn't look like, like when my moments happen... you're ready to fight... Like, he didn't look like that." – Raja Bell [51:03]

• Giannis-to-Atlanta Hypothetical:

  "If I'm Atlanta right now. Let's fucking go." – Raja Bell [37:54]

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Episode Structure / Important Segments

• Ewing Theory Introduction & Ja Morant Discussion:
  [02:11-23:00]

• Trae Young & Atlanta Hawks:
  [24:13-39:31]

• Paolo Banchero & Orlando Magic:
  [39:31-46:00]

• Desmond Bane's Dodgeball Moment:
  [46:00-54:13]

• Mailbag/NBA Geography/Player Appreciation:
  [54:47-72:57]

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Tone & Style

Conversational, irreverent, directly critical but fair. Heavy on real-life NBA front office/locker room experience and storytelling. Listeners get a mix of inside strategy and lively, personality-driven banter.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers hallmark "Real Ones" insight, blending big NBA ideas (like the Ewing Theory) with gritty, practical context. The hosts' experience, candor, and humor make for a stimulating listen—whether they're sizing up Ja's future in Memphis or reminiscing about players once taken for granted.

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Contact:
Real Ones Mailbag: [e-mail] – Send questions for future episodes!

Transcript

[Unidentified Caller]

Foreign.

[Logan Murdoch]

Logan Murdoch here for Real Ones. I had a great time with Raja Bell and Howard Beck on this episode of Real Ones where we talk about the Ewing theory. You guys might know a little bit about that, how a team fares when a star players out of the lineup and if they fare better with these stars out of the lineup. We talk about Ja, we talk about Trey Young and we talk about a little mystery guy that you guys will see during the episode. It might get a little controversial and then we talk about Desmond Bane and the ethics of a crash out and then we'll get to your Mailbag questions. It was a really, really fun episode. I think one of our best of the season had a lot, a lot of fun. So check that out. One Real Housekeeping note Real Ones Mailbag Gmail.com Real Ones Mailbag Gmail.com real ones mailbag gmail.com will be answering your questions next Tuesday, so tap in for that. But for now, a great episode of Real Ones with myself, Raja Bell and Howard beck.

[Howard Beck]

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[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

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[Logan Murdoch]

Cliff, play the theme music.

Popping Real Ones. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there, Howard Beck and the mother Effing Cut. This is Tuesday. Real Ones. Let's get right to it man. This was suggested in the pre pod meeting yesterday that Raja is always invited to but never shows up.

So we're gonna get right to it. We're gonna talk about the Ewing theory and see if it applies to a few players throughout the league. Now for everybody, that needs to a refresher on the Ewing theory. It was made famous by our distinguished boss Bill Simmons and it suggests that a team performs better after a highly publicized star player leaves despite initial expectations of decline because the team stops relying on one individual and plays more cohesively. That is from an AI generated Google search. So we're just going to go from that. The first person that we are going to talk to in this game that I have bestowed does it apply or let it fly? We are going to talk about one Ja Morant of the Memphis Grizzlies. Let me give some context here. The Memphis Grizzlies now have a record of 75 without Ja Morant this season. That is according to Stats Muse. And they have gotten back into the thick of the Western Conference after a bad start in which some of those games John Morant was playing in to start the series season, he wasn't even actually trying to and this comes on the heels of a season when The Grizzlies were 18 and 14 without John Morant during the 2425 season. And most famously they were in one of his best seasons. In his signature season in the league, he was the Memphis Grizzlies were 20 and five without him in the lineup. I will start with Howard Beck and go to Raja Bell for John Morant. Does it does the Ewing theory apply or do we need to let it fly?

[Howard Beck]

I think it probably applies. And let me back up because I got curious and I was like when did Ewing theory start?

I actually found it's still up 2001 ESPN.com page two Bill Simmons's Sports Guy column. It was actually invented by his friend. We should shout him out. Dave Cerily created in the mid-90s by Dave Cerelli, a friend of Bill's who was convinced that Patrick Ewing's teams, both at Georgetown and with the Knicks, that they inexplicably played better when Ewing was either injured or missing extended stretches. So it started there and they decided there had to be two things present for somebody to qualify for Ewing theory status. The first one is that it's a star athlete who receives an inordinate amount of media attention and fan interest and yet their teams never win anything substantial without them other than a couple of maybe early round playoff series. That certainly seems to apply to John Moran a little bit of early playoff success, but nothing, nothing deeper than that yet. And then part two is that same athlete leaves his team either by injury, trade, graduation, if it was a college guy, free agency or retirement. And both the media and fans immediately write off the team for the following season. So that was like a very specific definition. But he says when those two elements collide, you have Ewing theory, but it applies to kind of like when a guy goes down. So we had this with Trey, right? Or we'll get to Trey. We had this with Ja. He's out. They're playing pretty well without him and they were really struggling with him. And on top of that, we knew that there was tension because he got suspended for a game for contact detrimental to the team. And like, listen, Jaw's been a tough, a tough hole the last few years anyway, right? He gets hurt a lot. He gets suspended. When he does play, obviously he's pretty ball dominant and he's a guy who really thrives one way he wants to pick and roll, diet. And when you didn't have that last season when they were trying to mess, you know, change up the offense and have it be more of a movement offense player and ball movement. It threw him off, put him in a, in a, in a funk.

And sometimes a team, and maybe the Grizzlies are, are applicable here, if you've got enough talent otherwise and the ball moves more without your ball, dominant star, sometimes everybody's that much better a little bit percentage better. Now you still end up not having the guy who can carry you home in a fourth quarter, which is what you usually want stars for, right? Crunch time, critical moments because your role players aren't necessarily as good in those moments and can't create for themselves. So there's always a downside here. But I'm going to say at a glance and I'll come back with some stats later. At a glance, I think Ja Morant qualifies for Ewing theory status.

[Logan Murdoch]

Howard, or excuse me, Raja, based on the definition that you just got. What is the science behind that in your mind when you know a player does go out and maybe the role players are the people that are deemed pro players kind of coalesce and they ball out despite his absence. What do you attribute those types of things to?

[Raja Bell]

Look.

In the NBA, I say this all the time. I cringe when I hear a layman, a fan, a media member call someone trash or say they suck or all of the things that, that we would normally say about the 15th or 12th guy, whatever a roster Holds. Now, those guys are really, really good basketball players. Now, they might not be as good as your quote unquote star, but they are, in instances, when given the opportunity, able to do some things. And so, you know, this might not apply to 12 or 13 on the bench, but certainly two through nine, like, those guys are basketball players. So if you have a situation where a star who happens to be, you know, ball dominant, and rightfully so, because they're just so great at creating and closing, you have a situation where you extract them from the equation and everybody else gets a chance to play more freely, more wide open with better ball movement, allowing them to showcase what they can naturally do. You could come up with it. You could come up with spurts of time in some instances, maybe large spurts of time where that team looks better. Um, I had this argument, like, you know, my, my, my, my middle guy sometimes is on teams and stuff, and there was a situation once where he thought a team would be better, you know, without someone. And my take on that to him was like, look, I, I disagree. Like, I think that you might play better basketball at times without player, but player is so good at being able to make shots and do these things that I don't think you're a better team overall. And so, you know, Howard touched on that you could play better. Guys could, could, could kind of bloom in, for lack of a better term, when, when that player is off the court. But typically that 2 through 9 guy that I'm talking about, they're not closers all the time. Or if they are, they're not as good a closer as that star is. So my case was like, better basketball being played in absence of player, maybe overall better team giving you a better chance to win in certain scenarios. I would argue sometimes not.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, I think that with Josh specifically, I think he does.

He does fit the criteria of what we're talking about with this theory. But I think to Raj's point, it's more of the other stuff, to be honest with you. Yes, Zach, Edie is coming into the fold and he's balling out right now. Right. Jaren Jackson is playing well. Um, and they're defensively so much better with JA off the court, but that is just enhanced by the fact of the off court stuff. Howard, I feel like, right, because it's one thing to, you know, the numbers to suggest what they suggest, but if Ja was doing all the right things off the court and he was less of a headache, but he was still making, you know, the shots at the end of games and still playing, you know, solid defense. I think that that goes into it more than, than anything. Right. I think that's why they are a better team. I think it's a fix it. I think it was a fixable thing. I think now at this point it's pretty much, you know, he is who he is and he's pretty much auditioning for the rest of the league right now. Not very well, might I add, but he is doing it nonetheless.

When he comes back, or if and when he comes back, how does Memphis adjust to this? And I know you do have stats on the other end and I want you to get back to that, Howard. But. But how at this stage of where the Memphis Grizzlies are and where John Morant is, what does Memphis do and how do they react when JA comes back? Because it seems like for all intents and purposes, they are ready to move on from each other. And it's different from three, four years ago when it was like, oh, okay, we're going to give him an extension. He's the face of the franchise now. He's coming back to a situation where it's like, oh, we can get off of your contract and, and we can still build something with the group that we have at this current moment.

[Howard Beck]

So it's funny because Logan, the very last thing you said in your question dovetails with one of the stats that I was going to bring up. So I'm just going to jump right to it, which is this. I was texting with my friend Steve Elardi this morning. Steve is a data scientist, has worked in the league, has worked for espn, does other things now. But I asked him to look some of this stuff up one of the advanced plus minus sites, which shows, you know, your impact when you're on the court. It controls for who your teammates are on the court with you. Right. So it's a pretty good scientific assessment. Jaw is a plus contributor. He's a plus 1.6 per 100. But he says that that's on the level of a solid starter. Not even a top 50 player, all star levels, more like a plus 3.5. So when you ask about like, well, what does it mean to like, are you building around him? Are you trading him? What do you think you might be able to get? Part of the point of the exercise here is that in a salary cap league where the cap is harder than ever, it's a virtual hard cap. In the second apron era, if you're paying a guy the max and it's like no one's looking at John Rant saying, oh, he's a bad player, but he's not giving you as much impact. The stats are showing this. The advanced stats are showing this. He's not providing as much impact as you'd want for a guy making the max and many more maxes to come for the next several years. And if you're only being, you know, if your impact is, is at the level of a solid starter, that's where you have to then weigh that in. Right? Oh, it's not that he's a net drain on us. He's not a minus. He's just not providing the impact that you'd think he would based on his stature, his draft position, his, his salary. And so that's where it becomes difficult. And I think, you know what I'd be curious about at a time like this is, and this happens sometimes in the league and Raja's I'm sure seen this many times the star is out or even like a, a guy who's a high usage role players out. Team plays well without them when they're sitting there on the sideline watching. Are they assessing this and taking it all and going, you know what? They've got a pretty good thing going without. I should try to fit into what they're doing when I come back rather than imposing my style.

[Raja Bell]

Negative.

[Howard Beck]

So some, some guys will, some guys will adjust slightly, some guys will not.

[Raja Bell]

Who. Who do you like? I'm very curious now. I am not even. This isn't to like you're going to what you're saying.

[Unidentified Caller]

Who did that?

[Logan Murdoch]

I will say this. I have a person that has done it.

[Raja Bell]

But yeah, because I mean I play.

[Logan Murdoch]

He's an arguably top 10 player of all time. When, when, when Howard is talking about this, I think about Kobe Bryant in the back stretch of 2000, 2001, where he was out for. I had like a sprained ankle or something like that. And he was out for about two, three weeks, maybe a month. And Shaq went on a tear like an mvp, like, okay, okay. And then they, and they rolled that 151 playoffs. And then that. That's. That's. Whenever I think about that example, I think about Kobe. But that's one of one.

[Howard Beck]

That's why he is the most iron.

[Logan Murdoch]

He's.

[Howard Beck]

No, he's like the most ironic example possible. And I'm trying.

[Logan Murdoch]

I don't want to have his best postseason of his career.

[Howard Beck]

But when Raja asked Logan, that was who was in my head because he's the most counterintuitive example you could possibly think of. And it actually happened multiple times. I always say this about the Shaq and Kobe era. It wasn't linear about their relationship or even about Kobe in terms of his evolution. It was, oh, two steps forward and one step back. Sometimes it was some backsliding and then getting into bad old habits. And then at times there was a time he was out with like a broken hand to start a season. Might may have been Phil Jackson's first year. And then there was the one you were talking about, Logan. And at those times, because he was a really intelligent player, like, he'd say, okay, and he would calibrate. It didn't last.

[Unidentified Caller]

It.

[Howard Beck]

You know, ultimately Kobe was still going to be Kobe and he and Shaq were going to clash anyway. But Raja, I'm telling you, and Logan just mentioned it too, like, Kobe is an example of somebody who at times could see there's a successful model here without me. I need to reign myself in at least a little bit.

[Raja Bell]

Well, no, I mean, and that's. I mean, that's a great example. Right? Like, I would not have really witnessed that in that way because that was around when I was playing or trying to make the league. So, like, you know, I wasn't dialed into what he or the Lakers were doing like that. I would just say two things and you touched one. I mean, that was a moment in time that was not going to last forever. Right. Like, he's not saying, hey, bro, I'm changing the way I play to fit in with the Lakers for the rest of my career. And number two, it's easier to do that when you're talking about a star like Kobe deferring or augmenting his game to support a team that is now thriving around a star like Shaq.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, sure, right.

[Raja Bell]

Like that's. That the context is very important because minus Shaq, Kobe's like, fuck that. Like, I'm not, you know, okay, so that.

[Howard Beck]

That be. That being the case, let's bring it back to Ja then, if we agree, and I'm not sure if we all agree or not, about whether Jaw is a difficult fit for a team sometimes and that maybe the Grizzlies are going to be better off without him. Or maybe one day if you trade him, because you're going to get back either one. Either one guy who makes the max and actually gives you max impact, which we just established JA does not, or you're getting multiple players back and giving yourself some flexibility to go a different direction. Like, ultimately, are they Better off without Ja Raja, Like I'm not saying this is again, not a value judgment on Jaw as a player. Overall, he's a good player. Is he great enough and. Or what the Grizzlies doing now? Proof that you know or at least suggestive that they might be better in the long run without him.

[Raja Bell]

Well, let me, let me first touch on the Kobe of it all and you asking the question, you know previously about like, can you sit there and. Or Logan, you may have asked, can you sit there and watch them play and say, hey, let me figure out how to fit in around that? I do feel like the Shaq situation is really in the context of a player like Shaq, being present is important because if you look at like 17 a game for, for Jaren Jackson or like Zach Edie, who's playing well, like, those numbers and what they're doing night to night might not suggest to someone like Ja who feels the way he does about his own skill set that he needs to change when he comes back. Right. To answer your question, the immediate question, Howard, if you're going to ask him. And this, this kind of falls into the thing that I've been saying recently about LeBron. If you were going to ask.

[Logan Murdoch]

A.

[Raja Bell]

Player type, like a Jaw or even like, you know, some of the names we'll get to later who need the ball to do what they do, if you are going to ask them to give that up and be more of a, of a, of a piece, the answer is, yeah, man, if you can move him and get more pieces that fit with what you do more organically, yeah, probably better without him. Do you know what I mean? Like a better fit, you get more complimentary pieces. If you're not going to let the highest end of that star be the highest end of that star.

[Logan Murdoch]

Absolutely.

[Raja Bell]

And it might be because you deem the highest end of his ability isn't good enough. And I'm not here to say that, but, like, if you've made that determination as a team, the answer is, yeah, like, move that. If you can get, if you can get back pieces that you feel make you a better squad.

[Logan Murdoch]

So I don't, I don't. With this particular situation that the Grizzlies find themselves in, there are a couple of ways that they can go, right? There is they can go trade away and try to get a salary slot of jobs and try to get a star. They're probably going to do that anyway just to make the numbers work. Right. Or they can go try to do that, get picks on an expiring deal and try to replenish that way. Right. They already have the picks from the Orlando Magic deal, so maybe that's not a priority right now. Right, but they could. One things that I keep thinking about right now is that they keep thinking about the 2007, 2008 Nuggets, right? Where they go into that off season in 08 and they're playing with Allen Iverson and they say, oh, we're good, but one, this is just not working. We, we have hit a ceiling here and they trade Allen Iverson and they get Chauncey Billups right on the surface. You're like, man, that might be a regression because Allen Iverson is a first ballot hall of Famer. He has done so much. I mean, Roger knows how great he is, Howard knows how great he is. I know how great he is. But then you put him onto a better foot fit for that roster. And what happened with the Nuggets, no, they didn't win a championship, but that was because, you know, the Lakers were in their way, but they were. They went to the conference finals. They had one of their best seasons in franchise history because they had a different type of point guard that fit mostly with that roster. I do wonder if this could. If, if the Grizzlies are thinking, oh man, this is a sleeping giant. If we just. If we can flip a t. Flip a. A guy like Joffre, maybe a, you know, an overzealous franchise and get a guy back, I think they can do that. The problem, I think though is that like we. I think we're so sophistic, much more sophisticated now. Not to say that bad deals won't happen, right? But I think we're a lot more sophisticated as a league to do that where we look at the numbers and we put that into consideration when we are trading for someone. And the fact of the matter is with John Morant is I think like the. The book is already out on him, right? Like every other. Every other team knows exactly what they're going to get. And it would ha. It would take a GM to go out on a limb and say, okay, I'll do it for this guy, because I believe in this guy. The problem is in this new apron era, you're going to have to make a trade for Ja. If you're the Grizzlies four years ago, when no one is at his highest peak into if you see it, you go make the trade and you surprise the rest of the league. But you were the smartest one because you knew what was going on beforehand. And it's going to be hard to move him because everybody knows who he is. And I think that's the tricky part, Albert.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah. And it's not just the play. Right. It's all the stuff that's happened to get him suspended multiple times and attitude concerns. And every other team knows that too. Right. And that's not to blame the Grizzlies for. For not trading a few years ago. Like, they would have seemed crazy at the time. They are where they are because of everything that's happened since. Right. So that. But this, it is going to make it tough. The league is collectively smarter and, and more skeptical, I think, of guys whose advanced stats, their impact stats don't match up with the box score or the eye test. And you do start to look at them a little more askew. It doesn't mean somebody else won't trade for him or take a chance on him or think that they can get a better version of him. It does mean that they might not want to give up as much to get him, though. And so any trade would be tough.

[Logan Murdoch]

Well, the problem is for me, I'm gonna get right to you, Roger. The problem is for me is the two teams that would trade for him, in my eyes and like, would just say we'll take a chance on them. The Pelicans and the Kings don't really have guys that can, you know, both match the salary slot and I think make this Grizzlies team better. And I think that's the tough part in this league right now. So, you know, we'll see what happens. But Roger, what were you gonna say?

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I was just gonna say about your.

[Logan Murdoch]

Your.

[Raja Bell]

Your Carmelo again, you have you make a move and get rid of Allen Iverson. This, it falls into the same category as why Kobe would look at a team playing with Shaq and say, hey, I need to change the way I play. Because you have Carmelo Anthony.

[Logan Murdoch]

Sure. Right. Like.

[Raja Bell]

Like when. When you're saying you're going to just change a piece and you think you can unlock your team, that then you're saying Jaren Jackson or Zach someone over there is a true number one and you have to find a good supporting cast mate to kind of unlock him. Denver had the security of knowing I got. I already have Mellow. You know what I mean?

[Logan Murdoch]

It's a good point. Yeah. And like, also, like, we don't. We don't know who's we. We know who Jaren Jackson is. And I have my skepticisms of him. And I know Beck does as well. But we don't know who Zach Edie is. It's just so many question marks with this roster.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah.

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[Howard Beck]

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[Logan Murdoch]

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[Howard Beck]

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[Logan Murdoch]

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[Raja Bell]

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[Howard Beck]

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[Logan Murdoch]

All right, next. Next player is a very polarizing player. We're gonna go, go down to Atlanta and talk about Trey Young. Let me give some stats really quickly. Since 2020, December 9, 2020. That is five years ago to the day. The Atlanta Hawks have a record of 174 and 173 with Trey Young. They have a 60 and 75 record with Trey Young since 2324.

Defense is horrible with Trey Young on the, on the floor, but he's still Trey Young. And he's up, but he's also having the worst, one of the worst individual seasons he's had. He's shooting like 37 from the field. 37 from the field. 19 from three over his in the five games that he's played. Meanwhile, the Hawks are rolling without him. Dyson Daniels, defensive player of the year finalist and most improved player, has been killing it for the Ewing theory. Howard, for Trey Young, does it apply? Are we going to let it fly?

[Howard Beck]

It's a really interesting case because part of what's happened. So they're 12 and 8 without him this season. They were 2 and 3 when he was playing. Part of what's happened is that Jalen Johnson picked up where he left off last year before he got hurt and is turning into a freaking star before our eyes. Right? So the, the picture's clouded a little bit on this one, right? It's not. Trae Young was in this lineup and everything else is static and now he's out and they're playing better without him. It's Trae Young's out and this, this, this really nice Young player has caught fire in a way that you didn't really see coming and is, is just growing by leaps and bounds and he's torching the league and he's. And he's putting up triple doubles. And now it's like we might have a new North Star and we now have to figure out, going back to, you know, Kobe and Shaq type example, does the old North Star want to play with the new North Star? The two are the. Do we have too many North Stars? Can they, can they function well together? Can we be even better than this with a fully functioning Trae Young and Jalen Johnson together? I, as well as most people around the league, I think, would be skeptical that, that Trey's going to fit well with him. But Raja, this is another case where, like, I think it's a, it's fair to wonder or give the benefit of the doubt to a guy. Trae Young has played a certain way most of his career. But listen, notably Trey Young's a phenomenal passer, often gets overlooked by other things in his game, including his three point shooting. But a phenomenal passer, he should actually be able to, to.

Kind of, you know, get himself back in the flow with the team the way they're playing now without him. Mesh with that, help bring out the best of Jalen Johnson and everybody else and maybe it does ratchet down his usage rate. We'll see. The problem is, and this is where I'll bring my friend Steve Elardi back into the mix with the advanced stats. His, his defense is so bad that, that, that Steve notes that it negates his plus offensive impact. So he's A net minus and that's tough. It's a, it's a size thing. It's, it's also just the way he plays defense, but it may well be that they are better off without him. So. Yeah, Logan, I'm, I'm, I'm going with what was our framework here?

[Logan Murdoch]

Does it apply or let it fly?

[Howard Beck]

I think, I think it applies. I think, I think UE theory with a lot of asterisks kind of applies. And I, I think, I think it's, it's probably time to. For the Hawks to choose a different direction. Be building around Jalen Johnson.

[Logan Murdoch]

Real quick, Raza. The Atlanta hawks have a 119 defensive rating with Trey Young on the floor.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, that's tough, man. That's, that's. I'm going to, I'm just going to agree with Howard. You want me to be quick? I'll agree with Howard there.

[Logan Murdoch]

I think.

[Raja Bell]

No, I mean, you know, and I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt because I think weirdly, and this makes no real sense like on paper, but in my head it does. Like he, he's been so ball dominant and so, you know, on everything's had to revolve around him for so long as a player all the way back when you watched him in Oklahoma. It's just what he's always done. But for a weird, for, for some real weird reason in my mind he seems like he would be able to change his game to fit that a different style better than John Morant would be. Like, you know, because of his ability to catch and shoot, like because of some of the things he does. But that, that lack of defense is just. Oh, that's, that's really, really hard when you're, when you're that small guard and you don't defend. But I would agree with you, Howard, but I do want to give him the benefit of doubt like you said we should. Right? Because in a, in a, in the weirdest way, I feel like his skill set, if he ever bought in to not having to be this, this ball dominant type of player, like he could fit.

[Howard Beck]

You can, you can scheme around one bad defender, right? I mean he's off. You know, you can, you can hide your one bad defender. But I, but yeah, here's the thing. When they got Dejounte Murray, I initially thought, okay, Mac, they gave up a lot to get to Johnte Murray. People go read my piece today on the Ringer.com about all in trades and how they often backfire. But I thought they could play off each other because Trey is such a great shooter and a great passer. Like, he can function in other ways and contribute at a high level in other ways that don't require him having the ball in his hands all the time and scoring all the time. Ja cannot shoot, and therefore, like, without the ball in his hands, he's. He is diminished anyway. So, yeah, it's a little. It's tougher. Trey has a better chance of meshing, and he's also been in the league longer. Raja, too. So what was the lesson we learned off of the Pierce Garnett, Ray Allen Celtics? What did they all say in their early 30s when they got together and immediately just, like, torched the. We'd all had our individual success. We'd all seen the limits of that individual success, and we were all ready to sacrifice for each other. And they go and they win a championship and make a couple finals.

It sometimes takes a guy into his late 20s, early 30s before he's ready to kind of put aside the individual goals and be more about team. And so Trey is a little older, you know, maybe, again, benefit the doubt. Maybe he's willing to. To play a different way and see what Jalen Johnson has brought to the table and fit in around that.

[Raja Bell]

I cannot. Let me just take you. Can I take you guys under the hood real quick? Just real quick. Because this is, like. This is what the fan doesn't really see. You know, we had this conversation as it related to, like, Kyrie Irving way back. For a Trey Young to look at a situation and acknowledge, you know, that he needs to play a different kind of way to fit what's going on, he has to in practice, see Jalen Johnson in a way that. That the Ray Allen, the Kevin Garnett, and the Paul Pierce can have actual mutual respect and understand, yo, this dude is a killer. And it doesn't always happen in games. Like, we see the games, the fans see the games, where you earn that respect from Trey that allows Trey to say, okay, dude, like, I can play off of that is in practice, that's where I watched LeBron and Kyrie worked that out. And I watched it right before my eyes. I watched that dynamic once I saw LeBron start going over to Kyrie, and Kyrie was giving him the little tutorial of, like, how he's putting the ball off the glass and all of that. I said, oh, shit, like, they're going to be fine. Like, how Kevin Love fits in, we'll have to figure it out. But that's the dynamic, right? Is Trey Young has to be able to leave a practice, get on the phone with his homeboy, and say, hey, bro, this kid Jalen Johnson is a motherfucker. Like, he's a bad man. And now you got action. Now you might get to that point, Howard, where you say, you know what? I'm in year. Whatever this is, I really want to win, and it's incumbent upon me to, like, make this little bit of a change to kind of accommodate this young star who I think can get us where we need to go.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

I mean, to your point, Raja, Trae Young has a lot to prove in that regard, right? I mean, it's. I. You hear certain whispers like, oh, he's matured a little bit. He's matured a little bit. But, like, he's still, like, doing content to, like, go at Pat Beverly off of, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, for. He's still trying to clap back on some, like, real kid shit, right? And before this happened, like, his best run was during the 2021 Eastern Conference finals run, right? And that was a. That was a very wonky season in hindsight, right? You know, a lot of. A lot of teams played a lot of games in a very conven, condensed time period, and a lot of weird teams got through that, right? Not to diminish what he did, because he had a great run since then, he hasn't been good, and he's had the bug of a coach killer. He's. He's had the. The reputation of players not liking him or not wanting to play with him league wide. And I say all that to say, to your point, about him looking at another teammate and saying, oh, man, I. I'm. I can share some of this with you. He has a lot to prove, because I don't believe he can do that right now, right? Because you talk about LeBron, who, while he does have one of the biggest egos of all time, and rightfully so in a superstar ego, he has been really good at with players that he likes and saying, oh, okay, I'll give you. Like, I'll let you get a chance to get this torch, right? Like, I'll let you. I will defer. He deferred with Dwyane Wade early on before Dwayne, to the point where Dwyane Wade was like, nah, bro, you are better than me. Please take the reins of this offense, right? Kyrie, same deal was like, oh, okay, you got it. I remember that San Antonio game against. The game against the Cavs in San Antonio. It was A TNT game. I think you were in, in the front office at that time, Raja, where Kyrie just went off, went completely ballistic and LeBron was like, oh, okay, I guess I'll just be a supporting role tonight. I'll hit the shots when I need to. But this is Kyrie's game. I don't see that from Trey Young right now. I don't see that, that he's capable of doing that. And this is a big step because we talk about Ja having an audition. Trey Young also has a big audition for what, how long he's going to be in Atlanta. Like, and I agree with you, Howard, and I agree with you, Roger. I think that he has the tools to adjust and to what he can be into the next stage of his career. Just watch some step highlights coming off screens and you don't have to have the ball so much. I think he can do that. I am just very, I'm reticent to believe that he is going to do that. And if he doesn't do that, Howard and Raja, this is my last question for this part of the segment. If he doesn't do that and we talk about pressing buttons and when to press the button. If Giannis is out here doing this double dutching and going back and forth, right. Atlanta seems like the prime place for him to go with the picks and the team. I'll start with Howard, then I'll go to Raja. Do you press the button with this specific roster?

[Howard Beck]

If I'm the Hawks and again referenced in my piece that's on the ringer.com right now. Go read it. It's about all in trades and how they could quickly go wrong. But the Hawks, Yeah, I mean, you look, you've got a star in Trey Young who you probably want to move off of anyway and could be the core piece of a trade. You're not trading Jalen Johnson. The Bucks will insist on him and you're going to say no, but you've got you. You. They own. They have control of the Bucks 2026 pick, which is pretty freaking huge. They also have control and these two picks are tied together in some kind of obnoxious picks and swaps and whatever. But their pick, the Bucks pick and the Pelicans pick are tied together. The Hawks have control over both or one or the other. It's very confusing. Those are really, really nice trade chips. So if you're the Bucks and you can get control back of your 2026 pick in a year that you think you're, you're, you're going to be bad because you're trading Giannis in season. If that were to happen. Yeah, get your pick back. Get Trey Young, who will put butts in seats and is fun and actually will win you some games, too. And you know, look, he's a really good player. Flawed, but a really good player. And whatever other picks and an ancillary player like you, you know, you're going to ask for like Nikhil Alexander Walker, you're going to ask for Dyson Daniels. Like, the Hawks are going to try their best not to give up any of those guys, aside from Trey. But yeah, I mean, if I'm the Hawks and. And they do start to shop Giannis, if Giannis is this time, and Giannis is willing to resign with me, critically, because he's only got another year left after this one.

Yeah, I'm in.

[Logan Murdoch]

Roger Bell. Yes.

Yes. Okay. Very profound thought right there, buddy.

[Raja Bell]

But I mean, like, succinct. You're asking me if I would give up Trey Young for Giannis and a bunch of picks. Yes.

[Logan Murdoch]

Them pigs. Howard.

[Howard Beck]

No, I mean, listen, listen. I would say this, I would say this if, if the, the case for the Hawks not doing it. This is a little bit of a tangent, but there's actually a case for the Hawks not doing it, which is you can. You're going to trade Trey anyway, probably for other Stu. You have Jalen Johnson as your tent pole. You've got these really great role players, high level defenders in Dyson and Nikhil. And then you have. Because you have control over the Bucks and Pelicans picks, the chances of you getting an incredible player next June in this really strong draft to go with the guys you already have and on a. And on a longer timeline, because Giannis is in his early 30s, 30, 31, whatever he is. Um, like, I don't know, like that. That's a. That would be a really interesting debate to be part of in the Hawks front office, is all I'm saying.

[Raja Bell]

It definitely would. That'd be a fascinating debate. And you. I believe you'd have people where in some of those debates in front offices, you have guys that are really close to either side of the argument. And that one, you probably have people on like, just complete opposite ends of the spectrum on that. I would just say that, you know, I'm being a little. Trying to be a little funny there, but, but, you know, the argument that you're making about the extended timeline, I think I would use the opposite argument and say if I'm looking at the East And I'm Atlanta right now. Let's fucking go. Like, yeah, let's rock and roll, baby. Let's see. Let's see if we can capitalize on the window now through, you know, whatever Giannis has left in the tank. That would be my argument in that office.

[Logan Murdoch]

Do you throw Porzingis in there as well? Like, he's injury prone. You don't know how long he's going to be on that roster. Would you just throw him in and see if you can get. If that elicits something else in a trade, Howard.

[Howard Beck]

No, I mean. I mean, Porzingis might be part of just salary matching or whatever else in a trade for. For Giannis anyway. Like, you've got a Kong. Woo. You've got other. Like, yeah, you. I think you trade everybody. You have to be willing to trade anybody but Jalen, and you're trying to hold on to Jalen as well as Nikhil Alexander Walker and Dyson Daniels. Right. Like, I think those guys are the. Are the core of where your future is heading. But it's interesting to think that core with Giannis or that core, which is still pretty young, with a potentially, like, blue chip talent in June that's coming via somebody else's draft pick. Like, it. It's tempting, but, like, I'm kind of with. With Raja in the end, I, Like, I could talk myself in circles all day on this, and I think in the end I'd be like, fuck it. The east is wide open this season. Giannis plus. Yeah. If you don't have to give up too much in terms of your current players and you can get Giannis.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I'm with you, Howard. Like, I mean, obviously, if you're telling me I got to give up Dyson and some other pieces and it's just. That changes shit. But, like, if I could hold on to some of that core. Yeah, because, I mean, I love Cam Boozer. I mean, I've known. I've watched him since he was. He's going to be one of the top picks in the draft. I watched. I watched a youngin at BYU up around Thanksgiving in Orlando. Like, they're really good players, but, I mean, it's fucking Giannis, you know what I mean? And if you. If you had the core to go around him. Let's go.

[Logan Murdoch]

Hey, Roger.

[Raja Bell]

Yep.

[Logan Murdoch]

That celebration down Peachtree will be fucking same.

[Howard Beck]

Which Peachtree? There's like 17 of them.

[Logan Murdoch]

The one.

The varsity will be popping, no doubt. Cliff might. Might miss a show to go down there. Anyways, let's go to our last one, our last Ewing Theory candidate. This is kind of a throw in. I don't even think we, me and Howard honestly believe this one. But we just said, fuck it. Let's just, let's just, let's make, let's make a whole fan base mad at us. Paolo Ben Caro, ladies and gentlemen.

Does it apply? Let it fly.

[Howard Beck]

Howard Beck probably let it fly. But like, okay, they're 7 and 7 with Paolo this season and 7 and 3 without him. So this is why we bring it up, right? Oh, look at how well they're playing with. It's just like Wagner as, as the centerpiece with, you know, Bane is kind of the one to play off of him and like good defenders around him and everything, like it's simplified. You have again, the North Star kind of theory. You have one North Star. And, and it's also because if you go back over the last several years and again, my buddy Steve Elardi, when I was just trading notes with him this morning.

Noted that the raw on off data for years have been showing this, that the Magic are really great with Franz on the court and no Palo. But they're bad when it's Palo with Franz. And I don't think they're as good with just Palo and not Franz. So like the, the advanced stats or the, the on off numbers generally favor Franz with or without Palo. And the thing with Palo is, and again, Steve mentioned this like he's a net negative player impact wise, but it's not necessarily due to awful defense, which was the case earlier in his career. It's more about his offensive efficiency. Palo, high usage rate, low efficiency, and you expect a young player and he's still a young player, which is why you don't want to go Ewing theory too soon on the guy.

[Logan Murdoch]

Right?

[Howard Beck]

He's going to get you or you hope he's going to get more efficient, he's going to take better shots over time, he's going to take higher percentage shots over time. He's going to get some of the bad shots out of his game. I think he needs to become more of a playmaker too. And I think my biggest concern or skepticism about the Magic, anyway, with a lot of people this year getting, you know, preseason hyperventilating about them being a contender, I was not in that group. I just think their offense doesn't function to its max capacity with those two because I think they're overlapping too much and it's like it's just one or the other. I don't think they're necessarily enhancing each other or the guys around them as a duo. I'm not sure this is a duo that fits long term, but, but it's way too early to give up on it. So. Yeah, we're not, we're not going to, we're not going to go down that road.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I would agree, I would agree with you, Howard. I just, I just not.

Not finished enough of a product as a player for me to make that, that call on you.

[Logan Murdoch]

You.

[Raja Bell]

I could make the argument the stats support them being better as someone else, you know, with someone else being the true one of that team. Like, but, but I don't think that at this stage in someone's career it's fair to kind of make that assessment of them as a player. He's got too much to learn like now.

I mean, you know, as we talk about all these guys, you know, the older and more stuck in your ways you get, the harder it becomes for a Tiger to change those stripes, right? So like if, if we're not going to be seeing the improvement in terms of efficiency and shot selection and so on and so forth, I mean it would be fair in a couple years. But. But right now I don't think I'm ready to do that.

[Logan Murdoch]

I would just say like for young players and I think we talked about JA and this is going to be quick because we just wanted to fuck around a little bit. But I think that for young players in Paolo's position and we just talked about ja, like if you see there's a deficiency or any type of deficiency when you're on the floor, but you have a chance to make a, to make your team great and better, work on them deficiencies, man. Because for a long time I'm thinking about ja. You can go back and listen to the archives of real ones with me and Raja talking about JA and like just the.

I don't even know what the word to call it, but just I just ignoring the fact that you need to improve your game. Like Jaws game has been the same as it's always been. He was a great raw prospect, right? Didn't improve his three point shooting, didn't improve his defensive acumen. He could have been just an average defender and it would have been okay. And then you get to this point where it's like you're now you're this high priced guy and I'm not specifically talking about pal. I'm talking about young players of that ilk who have the chance to be stars. You have to work at it. So you can uplift your team, because that's the difference between not only you uplifting your team, but if it don't work out with your team, you can go up a lift, another one, and be adaptable and all of those things. And I just, I want that for Paolo. Not to say he's not a hard worker or anything like that, but this is the time I would say that you need to work on the nooks and crannies of your game in order to make it better, in order to fit alongside your guys. Because it's not, it ain't never going to be for Paolo how it is right now in Orlando with any other team. So that's something that I would just caution right now.

[Howard Beck]

Quick, quick addendum to that, which is just that superstars have more of a responsibility to their team than simply putting up massive numbers and especially massive scoring numbers. You, you need to impact winning at a super high level because you have a super high profile, super high salary. You're supposed to make your teammates better, right? There's the old cliche like make everybody around you better. So it can't just be, oh, I put up 25 and 10 every night or whatever. It's, your efficiency matters, your defense matters, how you work with your teammates matters. You know, your leadership matters. Like, you have a responsibility. And so that's where JA has fallen short. That's where Paolo, as a younger player still, I think, is working toward all of that. Quick side note, by the way, with Franz Wagner getting injured the other day, if he doesn't make the All Star team. This is such a random thing, but I just have to throw it in there. If he doesn't make the All Star team, it will be the 28th consecutive year where no one drafted with the 8th pick makes an All Star team. This comes from our friend Daniel Joyo, who wrote about this entire weird subplot on the ringer.com a couple years ago. 2023. There's a piece by him about how the curse of the 8th pick has not made an all star team in 27 years. And this will be the 20th consecutive season if Franz, now injured, doesn't make it. So. Curse of the eighth pool.

[Logan Murdoch]

It's a great pool. Yeah.

All right. Staying on the Magic.

This is the floor is Rogers. We're passing the ball to Roger right.

[Howard Beck]

Now because we're good teammates. Logan, We're.

[Logan Murdoch]

We're great teammates. We know who to, who, when to get the ball to our best player. So anyways, MSG Magic are down 10 with 6 minutes to go. O Ananoby gets a steal. Anthony Black makes a great defensive play on, on a, on a fast break. The ball goes into Desmond Baines's hands. Presumably he could take the ball and go on a fast break the other way. He decides not to do that. He decides to throw the ball DOD style at OG Anunobi's rear end, causing a brouhaha, I believe a technical foul and a $35,000 fine for Desmond Bane. Roger, your thoughts?

[Howard Beck]

Second time he's done it, by the way.

[Logan Murdoch]

Second time he's done it. The first time he did it was against Atlanta. Similar play where he, well, he's the one that got the great defensive play and then throws the ball at the defender. Anyways. All that to say your thoughts? We're clearing out.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I don't really, I don't think. This isn't an ISO. This isn't an ISO. I'm not, I'm not, I don't feel like my matchup is great here. This isn't an ISO.

Dodgeball's phenomenal movie. If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball. D to dodgeball. Dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge. Like, love it. He did bean him like, like it was, it was a crazy play. Has he given any.

Context as to why he did that? Has he explained himself in, in.

[Logan Murdoch]

I haven't.

[Raja Bell]

I tried to look for it. I didn't see any explanat. Saw the fine. I, I don't know what, I don't know what to say about that, Logan. I.

Obviously everyone saw my, my moment right where, you know, I had had enough of what I perceived to be, to have been shots to my face. I had asked the ref to stop and then I just kind of had a blackout moment where I was like, fuck it, I'm going to handle it myself. Everyone knows that. Everyone's seen that. So I, I, I, I can come from a place of experience and tell you that happens sometimes. Like if it's, you're just at your wits end with what you think someone's doing to you. I don't, I didn't watch that game, but I didn't see anything in the reporting. That said there was a build up to that. I don't really know what happened there. It was like he short circuited for a minute. It was, it was pretty bizarre because he was, it wasn't like he was in jeopardy of falling out of bounds and made a judgment call on whether you were going to feel he was inbounds both feet down and just rifled the ball at him. I don't know what to say about that.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm like, the court is. I mean, your basket is over there. They're the other matchup. You have a matchup advantage. Go run.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I. I don't have a clear out because I don't understand that. I don't understand.

[Logan Murdoch]

I don't understand what happened, bro.

[Howard Beck]

Legler. Legler was on Zach's party. Noted that back in the day, that would have set up a fight, like.

[Logan Murdoch]

And it'll be like, hold on to your point. I want to set this up really quickly because I wanted to get Roger's perspective on this because this is what Ananobi said. And also for the younger kids, this type of quote is like the new dis. But he said about the Desmond Blaine play, I was confused at first, then it was funny. I like Desmond. He's a good dude. That. That's what the reaction was.

[Raja Bell]

They're so wild.

[Logan Murdoch]

It's also condescending, though. It is a bit condescending, but, like, I was ready for hands to be thrown on both occasions in Atlanta, too. There was no hands thrown.

[Raja Bell]

I didn't see. Well, no. When's the last time you've seen, like, real hands thrown like that? That's just. That's.

[Logan Murdoch]

We've just taken that out of the league. But still.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, to Howard's. To Howard's point. I mean, to Howard's point. Yeah, that's a bro. That's immediate. Like back. Back. Way back in the day. That was. That's crazy. I. I don't know, man. I. Not. Not the media segment. I guess you guys probably thought you were gonna get more out of me on this, but. Because I don't understand. Because I have no understanding of what happened. I can't really explain it other than, like, I've had a. I've had a semi blackout moment. Like, look, anyone that listens to this pod, it's not new to them. Like, through the course of my life, I've had a lot of those moments where, like, I've had enough of something and I might go to a place.

[Logan Murdoch]

Where you're just looking for the reason.

[Raja Bell]

10 seconds later, 10 seconds later you might be like, yo, why the fuck did you do that? And I'd be like, yo, bro, I have no idea. But.

But I mean, that's all I can attribute that to. I have no idea what was going on there.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, I don't know. It was. I love Desmond Bane as a player, but this Kind of goes to the argument of like the five picks and like the. The first round picks argument. Like, he can't be your number one guy if he's gonna be this not level headed bro. Like, he can't. And I think that, you know, you got that return. You wanted Desmond Bane on your team. You do not want him to be said leader of your team.

[Raja Bell]

You know what's crazy about. About the play, though? Well, here's. Here's what I'd say to you.

[Logan Murdoch]

Because he lost the game. He essentially lost the game for them in that. In that game, for that action.

[Raja Bell]

You can be an emotional leader like those guys can be. I've referenced myself in this space sometimes. I wasn't going to be your leader leader, but there are teams where I was looking at the Draymond emotional and emotional leader, right? We're in a lot of times too volatile to be your. Your leader leader. Not good enough players. But anyway.

The crazy part about that play, to me, on top of the why of it all, was he didn't look like. Like when. When my moments happen or Draymond's moments happen, or when you have that moment, you're that person's usually ready to fight. Like, what's. Like, let's go, motherfucker. What's up? Like, he didn't look like that.

[Logan Murdoch]

He said, who are.

[Raja Bell]

It was like. Was like, yeah, just standing there, which is bizarre to me because, like, if you've made the call, like, yo, I'm gonna fuck him up, bro. Like, he's about to get. Once you do that.

[Logan Murdoch]

I want to push back really quickly, though. To his credit, in the game against Atlanta, he threw the ball at the opponent and said, don't do. And point it in his face.

[Raja Bell]

Okay?

[Logan Murdoch]

Right as he got pushed back. So I. I'm not saying that Desmond Bane ain't about the smoke, because I do believe in his heart of hearts, he just has that, like, football player energy, right? He ain't got no neck. He over here like this, right? Like, I. I could see him folding somebody if need be, but I just. It just. I don't think it just happened in that particular play. For whatever reason, maybe he like, OG and it's like, you know what? I just threw it at him. That's it. We're good. You know what I mean? But, like, I don't know, back in your day and in the generation before you, even if you like somebody, y' all just love to fight. Y' all just love to fight. Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

I don't know, but I Don't again. Yeah, I've never, I'm not questioning Desmond Bain's toughness or anything like that at all.

[Logan Murdoch]

No, not at all.

[Raja Bell]

Not at all. And so I didn't see the Atlanta one, but you're giving me the kind of the, the, the insight I need. If you are going to be in someone with the ball, you're then going to go up to them and point at them and be like, yo, don't do that. That says to me you were triggered by something that happened. And your answer to that was to throw the ball. Whether that's right or wrong. All right. That's another conversation.

[Logan Murdoch]

You just, that's why you reason for the last.

[Raja Bell]

That's why you did that.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

I don't understand the New York.

[Howard Beck]

Logan, Logan, remind me, because I can't remember when I last watched it. The Hawks one, I thought was one where it was more like, he's in the air. And it was like one of those, like, I'm beating it off you to make it out of bounds off you and get it back. Whereas this one. Yeah. As you noted in the, in the intro to it, he could have just like, turned and I recorded. He didn't have to. I think the Hawks won.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, I think the Hawks, he won. He was Anthony Black in this situation against the Hawks where he, like, tried to, tried to, like, make a play on the ball. I don't know if he got called for a foul or not, but he was in the same position where he was in bounds and threw the ball.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, yeah. It's not the same as, like, when you're flying out of bounds and you bounce it off the guy who's still inbounds or whatever, off their butt to make it go out and so you can get the ball back. Like, it was just weird. Like, this one seemed. It was inexpensive, totally gratuitous. Gratuitous. It was like, it was completely unnecessary, which is why you got down 11, bro.

[Logan Murdoch]

Go, go, go. Try to make a basket now. Like, there's a technical foul. You gotta. The other team shoots free throws. You take the completely the moment. It was. Anthony Black made an incredible defensive play, Raja. Like, I mean, I know you saw it, but, like, I just want to give kudos to that. I would be hella mad if I made a great defensive play on that way. You get the ball and you just, you just throw the ball at the guy when we could go out on a fast break the other way.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

I, I, I know, I know.

[Raja Bell]

I'm just, I don't know what to say about it.

[Logan Murdoch]

I know.

[Howard Beck]

Magic reporters. If you haven't already, please ask Desmond Bain why he keeps doing this, because I. I can't find any quotes offhand either.

[Raja Bell]

I could.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

That's the craziest thing. Let me just say. Friend of the show, Ben Stiller. Well, if. If we're ever doing that dodgeball, too, where, like, I would. I'm still throwing my hat in the ring to be an analyst on one of the. Desmond Bane would be a great, like, candidate.

[Logan Murdoch]

Cameo.

[Raja Bell]

Cameo. We.

[Logan Murdoch]

We needed.

[Howard Beck]

We needed Ben. We needed Ben on for, like, a guest segment today for, like, five, ten minutes. Like, break down Desmond Bane's dodgeball technique.

[Logan Murdoch]

Right?

[Raja Bell]

That would have been dope, that.

[Logan Murdoch]

We.

[Howard Beck]

We. We need Ben. Next time. Next time. You're on. Let's. We got to get into it.

[Logan Murdoch]

All right, man. Okay. We've been neglecting the people for a while. Not been, necessarily, but, like, all three of us have not done a mailbag, I don't think, in a few weeks. So.

Cartier. Cliff was popping. Brother, good to see your face. Are you okay after last night? Are you good, bro?

Are you okay? Yo, Cliff sent us a video, me and V, in the chat, about, like, he was in a car with all his partners, like, after leaving a bar from a Philly bar. And there was just so many expletives. And this is coming off the heels. Roger, you need to watch this podcast. There's a podcast that Memphis Bleak does on the Drink Champs channel where he just had Beanie Siegel on for an hour, and they're just talking. They're just talking. Philly. You need to listen to that. But it's coming off the heels of that. And then Cliff sends this video about the Eagle on the heels of the Eagles losing it. It's the same. Just. And I was really just scared. I'm not gonna lie.

[Unidentified Caller]

So, wait, why was you scared, though? It's just. That's just how we talk.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

Y' all a different breed, bro. It's different. It's December 9th. It's cold. It's. You guys just said it was a real cold freeze on the East Coast.

[Unidentified Caller]

It's a cold. It's a cold winter. Y' all better bundle up.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, bro.

[Howard Beck]

You good, though?

[Unidentified Caller]

Yeah, I'm. Look, man, I'm fine, man. You know, the Eagles did win a Super bowl in this calendar year, so I think I'll be okay. I think we're okay for now. But, however, last night was. It was very disappointing there, so let's get to the mailbag, man. We haven't done one of these in a while. This is from John Church. Well, he says, why does no one want to play in the East? He says, hey, huge fan of the pod. The news about Giannis got me thinking. I feel like no superstars want to play in the east unless it's a New York City squad. Why do y' all think the conferences are so lopsided as they are? I know the west is California and Texas, but I feel like no superstar free agents want to come to the east unless they're moving to New York City or Miami. I get the appeal that a lot of teams in the west have. Texas, Texas, big cities, and California being what it is outside of Miami, I can't think of a team in the east that does well with getting big name guys. And even the Heat haven't hit on something big in a while. So, Raj, since you down there, Fort Lauderdale, you know, a lot of my folks, a lot of my cousins, you got to take on this because I know, you know, a lot of players in the league kind of like to migrate to the Phoenixes, the Clippers, the Lakers, you know, teams like that.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I mean, you know, I can't speak to today's player. I haven't been one in a while. I think they're, in terms of things to get into.

You know, social options that weather, you know, would factor into. There's more opportunity in some of those places. You know, I love Philly. I got family from Philly. My wife's family is from New York. I have family in that D.C. area and stuff like that. Jersey, too. Like, I know that whole area.

[Unidentified Caller]

You got the whole East Coast. Right.

[Raja Bell]

And it's. And it's dope. No real talk. It's dope. Atlantic, a family in Atlanta. But like that corridor, especially the Northeast, when it gets cold, your options are limited. You know what I mean? Like, you just, you know, and so, you know, if you're going to be indoors hooping and working the whole time, but given the opportunity when you're not working, to be able to be outside, maybe play some golf and stuff like that, I, you know, I don't know. I think it's probably as simple as that. Miami is always a destination because the weather is good and you could be outside and there's shit to do. Other than that, I don't really know. I weirdly played most of my career on the west coast, too, which. Which wasn't great for me in terms of my family, but but, like, that's just how it wound up. Yeah, I don't know. I don't have a great answer there, but I would say that weather would. And opportunity to be outside doing some shit is a factor when you're comparing apples to apples in terms of, like, salary or opportunity to win and stuff like that.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm sorry, Cliff, didn't you just get Paul George, like, a couple summers ago? Didn't he choose to go to Philadelphia?

[Unidentified Caller]

But, Logan, I think that bag was talking more than.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, look, the bag always talks like that.

[Logan Murdoch]

I just want to. I just want to say before we get to Howard to answer this question, he's probably gonna have a much more profound answer than me and Roger. We were on a call to your point, Roger, about the cold. We had the pre pop meeting yesterday, and Cliff and Howard are just bundled freezing. Just like, Cliff just got back from the gym, and it's like.

Like, what's wrong, bro? He's like, it's. It's Brick. It's Brick out here. Howard, you good? You good? And I'm over here. I just. It's 44 degrees in the bay, and I'm over here with my little north face. And they're like, shut the up, Logan. Me and Ben Cruz over. Like, it's just cold. And they're like, shut up. Like, it. Just do it that cold in the east coast just do something to you. It just make you mean. It's just like. Remember that scene in Paper Soldiers, Roger, where Beanie Seagull slapped, like, seven dudes at a barber shop for no reason? I don't know if you saw that. That's what the Philly code does to you. That's what it does.

[Raja Bell]

I mean this. I mean this. I mean affectionately, right? Like, because my family was in Philly, and most of my time, I spent two years in Westchester, like, in the winters. But most of my time in Philly was when I was out of school. So it was summertime, you know, Beautiful shit to do. You're outside gorgeous, right? Same with New York. But, boy, when I was there for those that season and a half, and people ask me about Philly, I'm like, that shit is rough, dog. When it is cold, that shit is a rough, rough place. To people, people look rough because it's so cold. So I. I'm with you, Howard.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm with you, Logan. That's how you earn that beard.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

All right, Howard, what were you gonna say? I apologize.

[Howard Beck]

Oh, man, it's great that we could work in a weather segment. Here on the real ones, it's, you know, we're such a versatile crew. The funny thing about the question. Thank you, John Churchill, for the question. Is that actually when you look at where the stars are in the NBA, most of them, it's, they're with the team that drafted them. So like, all right, Jokic, best player in the league is in Denver. They drafted him. Giannis is in Milwaukee. They drafted him. Jason Tatum is in Boston. They drafted him. Luca has been with two Western Conference teams, but, well, let's see. Atlanta actually drafted him, but they foolishly traded him to Dallas. But Dallas then foolishly trade him to la. But point being, Luca didn't choose his destinations. Shea, drafted with a Hornets pick, by the way, by the Clippers and is now in Oklahoma. Shinguna Man Thompson in Houston, Wemby Ann Edwards, Booker, Steph Curry, all these guys were drafted to the teams that have them. So it's not like this was a matter of choosing the destination. It happens sometimes, right? But like, one of the bigger moments of, of like superstar free agency in the last, whatever 10 years was Kyrie and Katie choosing Brooklyn in 2019. So that, like, I know that the, the, you know, the question was about, like, it seems like only New York. And I think he was referring mostly to the Knicks. But like, all right, guys have chosen Paul George, as you noted, Logan, guys have chosen Eastern Conference cities. It's more that most guys move around by trade than free agency. Or if you're a superstar that's been with a team, if there's a disparity between the two conferences, it's mostly due to the draft. So, like, you can find other examples. Right? But you know, Harden, when he wanted to be traded out of Houston, wanted to be traded to Brooklyn, and then when he soured on Brooklyn, he wanted to be traded to Philly. And then eventually, oh, now he's in LA at the tail end. But I just. There's no simple answer to the east, west thing in terms of where the talent is. The top level talent is because there's been so many different factors and guys aren't bouncing around via free agency as much. It's mostly by trade. Sometimes a trade that they force, but sometimes just out of the blue.

[Logan Murdoch]

So also, I believe, also is like just over the last, I would say, what, 20 years, you just had the bad fortune of like, not great front office work, right? Like, yeah, you know, talk about you brought up the Knicks. I mean, before, you know, this CAA takeover, they were pretty bad in terms of their front office and the people that they pick with Phil Jackson, a lot of those, like the big time front office was in Miami, right? It just happened to be a, a great weather city, right? But when you look at the, if you look at the, the Western Conference, right, for years, you know that, you know Bob Myers was in there, right? You talk about Denver just finding Jokic.

[Howard Beck]

And you talk about the spurs for all those years, the Thunder under Sam Presti, right, they just all happen to.

[Logan Murdoch]

Reside in the Western Conference, right? At a time when the Eastern Conferences didn't have great executives, right? And like, you know, sorry, like the, the tanking Sixers for like five, six years to trust the process. Sixers, you know, you just have, you have groups that just don't.

[Howard Beck]

But that's why, but that's why Embiid is there. Logan, like, I mean, no, no, no, I'm not.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm just saying you talk about like people not wanting to come. Like, okay, yes, it did help out during to get Joel Embi, but for years it's like they put out a product that was so inferior that no free agent was going to want to come to the Sixers if that was. But that wasn't their plan. But no team is going to. No, no big time for agents was going to want to go to that.

[Howard Beck]

There's an important note within this too, which is like the Donovan Mitchell example. Donovan Mitchell decides it's time for things to end in Utah. His goal is to get to New York. He wanted to play for the Knicks. Everybody knew it. The Cavs make the offer that the Jazz like better. He ends up in Cleveland. We're all speculating. The whole league is speculating. Oh, it's. He's not going to stay because he really wants to be in New York and he resigned in Cleveland. Why? Because he liked what they were doing. So to your front office point, the Cavs under Kobe Altman have made a lot of really smart moves, including the all in gambit that cost them a lot of picks to get Donovan Mitchell and drafting Garland and Mobley and trading for Jared Allen, like, they've put together a good team to where Donovan Mitchell's like, you know what? Yeah, I did want to get to New York, but you know what? I'm good here, man. Like, we can compete here, we can contend here. And so you got to do right by the stars that you've got. And like, if Giannis ends up leaving Milwaukee, it's going to be because, well, yeah, we won a championship. But then things started eroding like, it, it's. It's all these other factors. It's never just about the weather or whatever else. I think this is the end of our extended weather segment.

[Logan Murdoch]

One more, one more. Because I got shit to do. And Roger's.

[Raja Bell]

I'm already texting.

[Unidentified Caller]

Let's get to this last. Let's get to this last one. From Tyler Finley. This is player appreciation. Hey, legends. Do you guys have a player you wish had you had appreciated more in the moment? For me, it's Blake Griffin. I love watching him, but knowing now that we don't have anyone like him, I wish I had appreciated him in the league more. Cheers, Tyler.

[Logan Murdoch]

It's a great question.

[Raja Bell]

I don't know. Go ahead.

[Logan Murdoch]

I appreciate it more to watch as a player.

[Howard Beck]

Blake was a lot of fun, man. And also, by the way, Blake has been fucking great on Amazon. Amazon prime put together a great studio.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like, low key with, like, espn. Not like really using inside the NBA, but in spurts. I think Amazon might have the best show right now, to be honest.

[Howard Beck]

Right now? Yeah, until. Until the. The inside guys come back out of, like, hibernation, whenever that's going to be. Amazon's killing it. They've been great.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm trying to think. This is a really great question that I never really considered.

I don't know. I've been foiled a lot, man. Every player that I've ever wanted to see, I've. In live, I've pretty much seen them. I have a. A different one. Like, I wish that. I will say this, man. I wish that I saw Lamar Odom at his full capacity. I'll say that. Just what a fucking talent he was, right? Like, if. If he had it all the way together, like just, you know, personal life and everything. And we saw it in spurts on that sixth man of the year. But, like, dude was a problem and was ahead of his time. When you just talk about that, I often think, and I always say this in press rooms, but if we could have seen Lamar Odom, like, prime Lamar Odom, even, like, who he was as a person, as on. On the 2015-16 warriors, that would have been so much fun to watch. Like, oh, my goodness, I. I just love watching Lamar Odom play. I think he would have been good. I think same with Ron Artest. Like, if he had everything, you know, he had it in spurts, but he was such a really, really good player. But Lamar Odom is always the guy that I'm like, damn, I wish I would have seen him at full capacity.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I'LL go. I. I mean, there's so many. I was blessed to play with a lot of great players. And I. In general, I think I. Given the opportunity to go back, I would have appreciated every player that I played with. Like, that went by so fast that I didn't have time to soak it all up like I should have. So probably everyone, but, like, I'll see clips sometimes of guys and their games just catch me in a way that I'm like, damn, like, he was doing that. And so I'll use a couple of those guys as people. J.

[Logan Murdoch]

Will. I was thinking about Jay Will. Yeah, that's a good one.

[Howard Beck]

You know, he was ahead of his time, man.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, man, he was. That's crazy. So what. And. And someone that I played with. But I got him when he was kind of, forgive me, old as an NBA player and he was still coming in. Cooking for the Mavs in really, in really critical moments was quick. Nick Van Exel.

[Logan Murdoch]

Wow. Yeah. His career goes totally different way with, like, two different moves. The two different moves don't happen. He is a. He's looked out completely different.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, you could speak to that.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm.

[Raja Bell]

I'm speaking purely about, like, some of the flair and shot making that he had to his game that I don't think I fully appreciated. You know, at the time when I was, you know, a lot of that corridor time, I was so busy being a college player or. Or trying to be pro player that I didn't have the time to invest in. Just watch. And there were. There weren't really. I couldn't watch a Denver game when you just wanted to watch a Denver game. But. But yeah, those two would be for me, I mean, amongst a lot of them. But those two.

[Logan Murdoch]

Hey, Rod, I love. My favorite thing about Nick Van Exel is that he would basically shoot a College 3 as a free throw.

[Raja Bell]

Oh, dude. Just great.

[Howard Beck]

That was his fix because he was struggling from the free. If I remember correctly, he was struggling from the free throw line. So he would go up and he would take like two steps back. Back.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah.

[Howard Beck]

And. And that was. Yeah, that was wild.

[Logan Murdoch]

I once got Dale Harris on the phone for like an hour for a Nick Van Exel story. It was amazing.

[Howard Beck]

Only an hour. You get down on the phone. It's never just an hour. It's usually.

[Logan Murdoch]

I was a novice. I was a novice.

[Howard Beck]

The over under on the number of questions you asked to get him for an hour is two.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, it was under.

It was great. He gave me everything I needed.

[Howard Beck]

That was what it was, that was, that was. That was the best. My favorite player before I was a journalist covering the league, right? In my, my fandom years, my last phantom years in the, in the 90s, I, I freaking loved Scottie Pippen because of, like, just the grace in his game. And so I use it as a leaping off point to say that I think my answer to this question might be Tracy McGrady, which is like, there's a little bit of a lineage there, right? Roger, like, like, Tracy, like, he had, like, it was, you know, he was long and he just could just get places that other guys couldn't. And he had like, the handle and the moves, and I was just a gracefulness to him. This. He was an aesthetically pleasing basketball player. He was fun to watch. And, you know, like, Tracy's career somewhat cut short by all the injuries, also just situations that went bad and, you know, Grant Hill's injuries when they were both in Orlando together. And like, it's not so much whether or not I could appreciate him in the moment. Like, you know, look, I was covering other teams, so I only got to see him in up close when he was playing the team I was covering, whether it was the Lakers or then the Knicks. But it's also just like, yeah, I wish I'd gotten to see more of him, but I also wish there had been more of him and Grant Hill for if. As long as I'm mentioning him. That too, because, like, these guys were awesome. Before injuries just kind of derailed, though.

[Logan Murdoch]

If Tim Duncan would have went to Orlando.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, that was the thing. Like, they were, they were, they were. They had cleared the cap room to get all three. That was like, like the first time, I believe, in the cap era where a team had done the. We're going to clear the cap and just go all in. We're letting everybody expire. And they, they. The goal was Grant Hill and McGrady and Duncan, and he seriously considered it before re upping in San Antonio. So, yeah, there's a, There's a massive what if right there.

[Raja Bell]

They're all six, seven long, like, swooping, unfolding at the rim type of players. They're pretty cool to watch. Quick, quick Tracy McGrady story before we get out. Second year in Philly. Supposed to kind of be in the rotation. At least they thought I would be, but I wasn't good enough to do that. So I was sitting, you know, most nights play my games were playing Mike Woodson in a pregame workout. I play him one on one, and then I'D you know, cool down, warm up, sit on the bench and eat my Snickers bar. Well, this particular game, it was touch and go. Whether Matt Harpering was going to play. That was Tracy McGrady's matchup, right? Touch and go, touch and go. Larry Brown comes to me, I've not prepared well to play in the game, and says, yeah, Matt's not playing tonight. You got to get Tracy McGrady. You're going to start. I'm like, oh, okay. So then he starts giving me like a little details. I forget exactly what they were. Like, hey, play his left hand. He said, you know what? No, nobody can fucking guard him anyway. Just go out there and do your best. And he walked away.

I said, okay, thanks, coach.

[Logan Murdoch]

How'd you do?

[Raja Bell]

Probably not well. I mean, I don't. I don't really recall how the game went. They typically did not go well for me in that season, but I just always appreciated that, like, Larry Brown was going through what you would do, and then he was like, this is. This makes. Who cares? Just go out there, try your best.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, man, he was nuts, bro. I never got to see him play live. I wish I did.

[Raja Bell]

Crazy, crazy.

[Logan Murdoch]

It was insane. You know what's crazy? Real quick, Howard, to your point about like seeing players before, before you cover the league and like seeing them after, like, I'm going through that process right now. Like this generation of like The Durants, the LeBron's, the steps is weird because these are all players that I still watch when I was in high school and they're still in the league right now. And like, I'm just. I'm almost at the place where it's like, oh, there's not gonna be any more players left from like my high school days. So it's just weird to like, kind of go through this, right? Because you gotta turn it off.

[Unidentified Caller]

Off.

[Logan Murdoch]

You have to turn it off. And it's just an interesting, like, thing to go through when you're, when you're. I mean, you went through it with Scotty, so, like, it's. It's a weird. Just adjust.

[Raja Bell]

I wanna welcome. I want to add one here. Can I add one? Sorry, Howard. I mean, yeah, I would have appreciated Vince Carter more.

[Logan Murdoch]

Oh, yeah.

[Raja Bell]

When he, when he was in prime, I would have appreciated that more because that. You see some clips of that and you're like, jesus Christ, that's crazy.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, he's bad. You played in a great era.

[Raja Bell]

That was pretty cool, dude.

[Logan Murdoch]

It was a pretty good era. The Forest Gump of real Ones, Raja Bell, that is Howard Beck. I'm Logan Murdoch. That has been another edition of Real Ones. Make sure you tap in with us. Real ones mailback gmail.com realwinsmail [e-mail] real ones mailbag gmail.com we do this every Tuesday. At least we try to without me, Raja and Howard and and Cliff, thanks for joining us. We will see you guys on Friday. All this bye. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas Star casino who are 18 and older and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800-Gambler or visit rghelp.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.com in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit GamblingHelp helpline ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.