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- [00:00]
Waz
You want control of your financial future and Schwab knows that.
- [00:04]
Rob Mahoney
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Waz
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Rob Mahoney
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Waz
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- [00:11]
Rob Mahoney
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- [00:20]
Waz
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- [00:23]
Rob Mahoney
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- [00:30]
Justin Verrier
You're listening to the Ringer NBA show presented by FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back, relax and track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. If you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.
- [01:30]
Rob Mahoney
Hello and.
- [01:31]
Justin Verrier
Welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Ferrier and joining me back on this Monday morning, Rob Mahoney, Big Woz. Before we got on this pod, Woz was telling us that he is what did you have the most successful thing of your career just happened. Tell us all about it.
- [01:48]
Waz
Yeah baby. Viral on Instagram. Me and Robert Horry talking about the time he threw a towel in Danny Ainge's face when Danny Ainge was the newly interim coach of the Phoenix Suns. I think this would have been like 1997 or 98. I think it was 98. Yeah. He told a great story about why and how the buildup to that towel throwing moment happened and everything that I've ever thought about Danny Ainge confirmed in that story part of why I was so proud and happy when the Utah Jazz got the number six pick. I was like, yes, Danny Ainge loses again.
- [02:27]
Rob Mahoney
Meanwhile, Justin, we're just fucking chopped liver over here.
- [02:30]
Justin Verrier
That's what I'm saying.
- [02:32]
Waz
No, no, because per our other conversation before the pod, I was email yeah. What do we have to do on this show to get Justin Verry to be the commencement speaker at a future UConn graduation for some fresh face undergrads about to go out into the world. Could you imagine Justin giving his core week speech at the UConn commencement?
- [03:00]
Rob Mahoney
I would love it.
- [03:00]
Justin Verrier
Listen, I'm very available, especially these days, so if anyone wants to give me that honor. A fake degree, I'm here for it.
- [03:08]
Rob Mahoney
Here's the thing, it doesn't even have to be UConn. Like, I was doing some research about my alma mater at the University of Texas. Taylor Sheridan was the commencement speaker. I get it. Very famous. Not a graduate or an alumni in any way. Of the University of Texas. So does he live there? We just have to. Well, he went to Texas State. Famously a Texan, but not the University of Texas.
- [03:29]
Justin Verrier
Okay, so anybody can just be pulled in for any college.
- [03:34]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. So we need to get you, Justin, an honorary doctorate to some. Any college. You know, any mid major that. Let's. Let's start small and we'll work our way up the commencement circuit.
- [03:44]
Waz
You should probably start at a juco or something.
- [03:46]
Rob Mahoney
A juco?
- [03:47]
Waz
Yeah, I think Justin is better than that.
- [03:49]
Rob Mahoney
No, no, as just agent, we're refusing all juco. Technical college, cooking colleges, specialty schools. Don't even bother if you're a mid major or above. Justin Verrier will speak at your commencement.
- [04:02]
Justin Verrier
Hawaii, maybe St. Bonaventure will bring me Isaiah's alma mater. Me and Woj will just rub elbows talking about the good old days. That'll be fun.
- [04:12]
Waz
Justin's gonna tell the grads. Like, I almost gave up on this pod one day. And then it hit me. The variables.
- [04:19]
Justin Verrier
That's right. All you have to do is come up with a bit based off a pun on your name. That really isn't anything except for that. That's the key to success, friends.
- [04:30]
Rob Mahoney
That's gold.
- [04:30]
Justin Verrier
All right, well, we're not doing that for this podcast. We will. Going into the finals as we typically do. This is just a big old conference finals preview. Because oddly enough, on this Monday, as we're recording no games, and then we're hitting the ground running for the conference finals. West on Tuesday, east on Wednesday. We're going to be back on Wednesday night to cover that one, then Saturday and back on that regular schedule. But first and foremost, I think we have to talk about the game that just happened Sunday afternoon. Thunder. Nuggets. Thunder. Blow out the Nuggets in Game 7. Rob, to me, this one kind of brought back the whole idea of why we were so encouraged by the Thunder to begin with. Like in Game 2, they blow out the Nuggets 87 points. What was it in the first half that seemed like an outlier in the situation for me, this game was the Thunder as we expected, defense first and foremost with Caruso giving way to offense, Jdub, comes lives, et cetera, et cetera. Did it seem like that to you, that this was like the most representative of what the Thunders championship odds are kind of are this entire season?
- [05:29]
Rob Mahoney
Absolutely. I think down to the fact that like the offense was good, not great, otherwise, like a lot of things working. J Dub obviously had a big game where he kind of clicked back into place, but the most dominant force in that game was the Thunder defense. The most dominant force in this postseason overall has probably been the Thunder defense. And so if they are going to have a championship path, and they're right on the precipice of that now in the Western Conference finals, that's where the road goes. It is, it is a defense first path. It goes through forcing all those turnovers. It goes through guys like Alex Caruso, as you mentioned, being able to guard literally one through five, even if that includes Nikola Jokic. Remarkable stuff from the Thunder, who have been a remarkable team all year.
- [06:08]
Waz
Yeah. And I think they're championship medal is based on, yes, they have an mvp, but also the depth, which, you know, in a playoff setting we kind of poo poo depth. But like when the Thunder make their depth work, it's. It is this turnover forcing, not being forced to play in the half court, interchangeable parts. Like it's like it's a machine. And pretty much, I think, I guess you could say the Pacers have depth. I don't know that we would describe the Timberwolves as having that. Yeah, they got a solid A.
- [06:47]
Rob Mahoney
They're not the Knicks. You know, it's not six and some duct tape.
- [06:51]
Waz
Obviously we wouldn't describe the Knicks that way. Um, and you know, it feels like you can get by in the postseason without having it. But the Thunder, when they're right, they're making their depth work for them in the ways that you need depth to. Meaning guys going 1000 million percent every single minute that they're on the floor and actually making it effective. Like, you know, rotations forcing turnovers, making the offense not just work, but think, you know. Cause there's a mental exhaustion that comes with like, all right, I have to be so deliberate and so conscious of every single action that I run here. And it takes its toll over the course of a game, over the course of an entire series. And I think Denver was just kind of at their wit's end.
- [07:40]
Rob Mahoney
I think some of the ways that depth manifests too is when you're deep enough where you have good players, you don't even have to play. And like we saw for example, J. Will came into the series about midway through as somebody who was guarding Nicole Jokic became an important part of the Thunder rotation. Game 7 Mark Dagnall goes really small through a lot of that game starts Crusoe in the second half there were some lineups with no big on the floor at all. They took the training wheels off of Chet and we're like, sometimes you're going to be our only big without J Will. It's always one of my favorite charxisms. Shout out to our guy Jonathan Sharks that as a series goes on, it always gets smaller, smaller and smaller and smaller as you go. And by the end, how many centers are even playable in those games. And Isaiah Hartenstein is certainly playable no matter who you're going up against. But very telling that by the end, like at the end of the road, the Thunder went as small as they did and I think only got more and more ferocious the smaller that they did.
- [08:31]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, I've waxed poetic throughout this entire season about just like the overall structure with the Thunder and how like top down they are and how much they think about the big picture. And part of that was getting guys into the games that probably won't see in the rotation but you might or lineups that you might want to have in your back pocket for these sorts of situations. And I thought the J Dub lineup at center was the prime example of that. Yeah, they went to it earlier this season out of necessity because they didn't have centers. But look at it coming to bear when they needed it most. I just, I just, just love the way these parts interlock and Caruso first like is probably the prime example of that. One of the few guys they've gone outside of their feeder system in order to add Hartenstein being the other one. It ended up being Caruso when you needed him. Not only starting in the second half, but probably being the biggest player in this game seven and then he and Hartenstein was. Were the two guys guarding Jokic when it mattered most. Those are their two big pickups over the offseason. It's just like things just like fall into place for this team so well and it's just like when you need something, they have that something.
- [09:35]
Waz
Yeah, I mean the two off season pickups, it's one of those rare times where you can so obviously see how these guys are going to fit into the equation. Like, we just knew what Caruso and Hartenstein were going to mean for this team, especially Hartenstein, because Chet and J. Will were their only two bigs. I see. And these guys, they're not, like, pushovers or scrubs, but, like, neither one are traditional centers or big men. So you kind of knew Hartenstein was going to, you know, fulfill that role. And then just the size. Caruso just plays so much bigger than he actually is. And so, yeah, they had a bunch of guys that could dribble, pass, and shoot at those positions, but they didn't play big defensively. And all these guys that we loved last regular season against Dallas, it started being like, holy shit, can we. Can we trust this guy to even guard PJ Washington? Like, it got to that point. And so now in this year's playoffs, they have Hartenstein as big man help. They have Caruso as their, like, big wing, interchangeable defender, sort of a Swiss army knife for the wing. And, yeah, it's one of those crazy things where, like, the. The off season move works out exactly as people thought and envisioned that it would.
- [11:00]
Rob Mahoney
And clearly the Thunder knew that, too. And, you know, Justin, you mentioned, he's kind of one of their few guys who came from outside the system, but also he was kind of inside the system as an Oklahoma City Blue alum, like, playing for Mark Dagnault for the Blue.
- [11:14]
Justin Verrier
It's a great fun, like, if you haven't seen it out there.
- [11:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, incredible fits on Dagnault in particular. Just really a nice. A relic of a time, you know, a different time in sartorial coaching history. But I thought there was a really important moment, you know, before this game became a blood in the second quarter when it was still a dogfight, and the Thunder offense was so reliant on all these open threes that just, like, were not falling. And there was a possession that kicked out to Caruso from Shea. Normal, like, driving kick stuff. Chet is wide open in the corner. Probably had just missed a couple threes in that quarter already. And instead of swinging it, Crusoe, like, waits a beat. Kayson Wallace cuts from the weak side. He hits him in the middle. All of a sudden, Chad is cutting baseline for a lob dunk instead of a three. And it's like that kind of stuff from Caruso, too. Like, we talk all the time about the defense, and probably not enough about the connective tissue of what he brings on offense, the poise of what he brings on offense. Like, he's a guy who has a Sense of the moment in every possible respect. And sometimes that means passing up what in theory is a pretty good shot for the sake of what your offense actually needs in a game and in a matchup like this. And that's going to be a huge thing against the Wolves. To who like that's going to be a, a battle of the two best playoff defenses. And so they're. The hunter are going to have to figure out how to crack that all over again.
- [12:28]
Justin Verrier
So the tracking had Caruso guarding Jokic one on one for about 13 minutes. Jokic was four for 12, four turnovers. Caruso had two steals. Jokic also had 12 free throws. I think all of which probably happened in that game. Seven maybe. All of which happened in that first half where he was going to the line every five seconds. The turnovers were so huge, not only for the entire team because that's just how they play their best, but also J Dub felt alive was for probably the first time in that second quarter, he had 17 points alone. I think he had zero in the first quarter. It just felt like that is how you get him going, getting him out in transition, him getting steals himself and, and sparking the run outs. Do you feel any different about J Dub going into the west finals? Maybe you did like earlier in the series because he's had a very mixed outcome so far this, this postseason.
- [13:18]
Waz
No, not really, to be honest, because I think the Wolves are going to be able to make this thing a half court game and let's face it, they're just so much more equipped to guard this OKC team than Denver is. I think he's going to have a tough season, a series, excuse me. And if OKC is going to prevail, it's because there are other guys that just straight up making shots. That's what it's going to come down to. Look, I think J Dub can get to a point where he's a reliable, dare I say it, Jalen Brown esque, you know, kind of number two on the perimeter. I don't think he's there yet, not this year, which is fine. It's like his third freaking year in the NBA. But I don't know, man, I wasn't disabused of that. Just watching this guy, you know, basically shooting the 30s, the mid to low 30s for three games. Critical games against the Nuggets. Again, like we got a lot of respect for the Nuggets, but people thought this was like the worst defense in the whole playoffs coming into this thing. And at times they look Like a freaking juggernaut against OKC in the half court. And I think a lot of it is that J Dub just isn't there yet. But, you know, if they're able to, and I think they will have opportunity to turn the Wolves over and make this thing a different kind of offensive, you know, calculation and just executing perfectly in the half court against a set defense in Minnesota with, like, you know, even Julius Randle is playing at damn near all NBA defense type of levels. I, like, I'm not gonna. I'm not saying he's gonna suck. I'm just saying I don't anticipate him being this, like, dominant player in the next series. I just don't see that for him.
- [15:08]
Rob Mahoney
And I think that's okay for him not to be at that level yet. You know, like, it took Jaylen Brown a long time to become Jaylen Brown to really stabilize in that way. And I think the part of the jdub conversation is we talk about him like we talk about many stars, which is like, are you creating in these moments, like, the lack of whether it's shot making or shot creation in some of these games has been a little glaring and a little concerning, considering how much the Thunder asks of him. But like Jaylen Brown, he is a guy who is a huge impact player on defense.
- [15:34]
Waz
Yes, he is.
- [15:35]
Rob Mahoney
He's a huge impact player on the glass. And so, yes, he's a star and we hold him to star standards and we want to see all these things from him as he kind of goes through his progression and his journey as a player. But bottom line, even if he's shooting 20% from 3, that's a guy who's making an impact on the game. And so he's going to make an impact on the Western Conference finals, even if he's not hitting shots, even if he's having trouble finishing through all the length inside that Minnesota is going to present like he's going to have a say. It's just going to be a matter of whether he can have enough of those transcendent Jalen Brown taking the next step kind of games that the Thunder really need from him.
- [16:07]
Justin Verrier
Yeah. All right, we're going to talk about the west finals a little bit later, but I want to talk about the Nuggets just because we won't be seeing them for a little while. How many tissues collectively did you guys use last night?
- [16:16]
Waz
Just, were the tears flowing or this guy nervous cat?
- [16:22]
Rob Mahoney
As if we didn't talk about the Thunder going to the finals. As if not my championship is the.
- [16:26]
Waz
Guy that picked the sweep in this series, by the way. Just let's not forget that part.
- [16:31]
Justin Verrier
I did not do that.
- [16:32]
Waz
This is the guy that picked the sweep. Yeah, they're going to march through. They're going to. It's like a hot. The knife through butter. That's going to be okay. See, look, I didn't think Aaron Gordon was going to play. The fact that he did, like, that's big, that's nice, but he just wasn't himself obviously. And the guys that were counted upon, MPJ Rother, Russell Westbrook, like as we say these names, you know, it is kind of funny. Mpj, look, he's had nice playoff runs before. He's obviously super hurt, but he was dog shit in this series. Like just horrible player. Yeah, he was horrible. Um, Russ had his moments, but again, this is a guy they picked up off the scrap heap for nothing and turned him into a 30 minute player in the freaking playoffs. Right. Um, and this is not just Kobus. It's like just look at the team, look at what they were counting on, you know, that they even got this thing to a game seven in a manner that they did was a minor miracle. And so I thought they would lose. You know, I kind of thought they would lose once I heard, especially once I heard Aaron Gordon was dealing with a major injury. But, you know, I think they gave it a great effort. Whoever they hire, you know who, they're not going to pay because this team doesn't believe in paying people. This ownership group. I hope he figures out an off season where you can actually get competent, you know, five through seven players so that you could put next to Nikola Jokic a guy that's proven that he can make gourmet out of tuna fish. Like that's all I hope for the off season.
- [18:15]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, that's the thing is like big picture. If you have Nicole Jokic on your team and you're not contending, you have kind of failed. Like, like that's just the standard if you have a guy like that on your team. All of that said based on where we were five days before the playoffs, with people getting fired, getting to game seven in the second round against the Thunder is a pretty good outcome from that point.
- [18:35]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, it reminded me a lot of last year's Knicks where it's just like they needed bodies just to finish out the playoffs. And it's a credit to what they. Honestly, if they had two more adult like league average rotation players, would they win the title? I think they would be probably the favorites or at least co favorites with the Thunder. And I think it's a really credit to them that what basically everyone is saying at this point is that it's OKC's finals to lose because they are clearly the best team amongst the four that are left here. We'll see about that. I think we need to pour one out. Maybe it's like muscle milk or like a protein shake. For Aaron Gordon playing on one leg though, what did he have in terms of rebounds? He had 11 rebounds in that game.
- [19:15]
Rob Mahoney
Eleven? Yeah.
- [19:16]
Justin Verrier
And then he had a couple other tip outs where he just wasn't even jumping. He probably had like five more of those. He, he did everything he could. I'm a little worried for him next year because this is now what his third hamstring strain. One on this left one and two during the. For his right one. And, and even when he was playing it was a constant worry and concern. So I think long term we'll get to that. We'll see if like that's. There's going to be ramifications there because I hope there aren't. But I would say this was a real die on your shield performance from like one of our favorite players.
- [19:46]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. I mean there's, there's off seasons where you go into it like Aaron Gordon did last year and it's like, okay, I need to retool my jump shot. I need to be in the lab as much as possible this summer. And then there's summers like this one where that guy needs to be on the couch as much as possible. Give your streaming recommendations to Aaron Gordon. Please put a PlayStation controller in this guy's hand.
- [20:05]
Justin Verrier
Gonna become DeAndre of the Nuggets.
- [20:08]
Rob Mahoney
Look, I think he probably should consider it. You know, like now is the time to shift down and it's the, it's the front office's time to shift up to create the kind of roster where Aaron Gordon doesn't have to die on his shield in a game seven because you have some other people that Jokic can rely on that Christian Brown can rely on. Like this was a pretty underwhelming Jamal Murray game too, which did not help matters. And yeah, the Michael Porter element, like I think the injury is tough for him because it feeds into his worst instincts as a player of being such a perimeter oriented threat and that only that guy hates contact, does not, does not play well through contact, has never sought it out, has never been that kind of guy unless really, really nudged to do it. It's just hard to talk yourself into that when your arm is in the state that it is.
- [20:54]
Waz
Well, just one last thing on the Nuggets. And I get it, the Celtics loss and people could say what they want, but if I don't know, who's the Celtics third best player? Derrick White or something?
- [21:06]
Rob Mahoney
Probably, yeah.
- [21:06]
Waz
Like, if Derrick White injured his hammy and couldn't play in a Game 7, you wouldn't go into it thinking, like, the Celtics are deeply compromised. Right? Like, you'd be like, they could still pull this out against any team. It's one game. You could get it done, bruh. A compromise. Aaron Gordon for the Nuggets, like, bro, you're done. You're done. You don't have another power forward. You don't have another great physical perimeter defensive player. You like this guy. Like, he's doing everything. He's stretching the, like, bruh.
- [21:41]
Rob Mahoney
He's initiating office. Like, it's really important.
- [21:44]
Waz
Sanity, the thinness of this roster.
- [21:48]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, well, that's probably a good segue to our war room, which we're reassembling right now. Everyone get their thinking hats on because we're only coming with with good ideas here. I think if you were to say, when Calvin Booth charted the path of bringing in rookie contract guys to supplement what he had in his core four, now would be the time where everything starts to come to fruition. Like, maybe we have one or two foul periods. Like, oh, maybe like this year is a little bit more disappointing. But we have four, five to 10 years of Nikola Jokic in his prime. We're just going to dominate in the future, unfortunately. These are the guys that you're expecting to come about. Rob, you tell me if any of these guys you believe in. So Christian Brown is on another level.
- [22:29]
Rob Mahoney
I would say, yeah, he's obviously believe in him.
- [22:32]
Justin Verrier
The other guys are Peyton Watson, maybe Jalen Pickett, sometimes Hunter Tyson Dron Holmes, who unfortunately didn't play a single minute this season after being drafted in the first round. Are any of those guys you're counting on next season to be like a Core 7 guy?
- [22:51]
Rob Mahoney
I think one of them is going to have to be.
- [22:53]
Justin Verrier
Yeah.
- [22:53]
Rob Mahoney
Like I, you know, Peyton Watson has at least proven it defensively and in terms of his athleticism that he can somewhat hang in a series like this. Like, that's important. Otherwise, I have gone around and around the carousel. Some weeks I'm like, I kind of believe in Julian Strother and then he'll have two weeks where he disappears. Some weeks I'm like, oh, Jaylen Pickett. Like, there's A little bit of on the dribble juice, like on the, like on the ball juice there that I really like. And then you see him try to fit into some of these playoff lineups against the Clippers, and it's like, oh, this does not work at all at this level of competition. Duron Holmes is the guy who. You still hear the murmurs, like, oh, what? Once he gets a chance, he's really going to pop in this team. I literally don't know. And I'm going to need to believe it when I see it because I have not seen murmurs.
- [23:36]
Waz
Yeah, my ear.
- [23:38]
Rob Mahoney
My ear is pretty low to the ground on that one. I'll admit it's a distant rumble, but it is there.
- [23:42]
Justin Verrier
You can play 10 minutes of backup center that's gold.
- [23:46]
Rob Mahoney
Anything.
- [23:46]
Waz
It's tough. I think Peyton Watson is an actual player. Definitely like the heights, like last year, some of the stuff he was doing, I was like, wow, this guy is going to be a killer. Little bit cool on him now, but I think he's a guy they should be happy that they was able to find him, kind of develop him. You know, he's got the tools in terms of the length and the feet and that kind of thing. Okay. Obviously, Christian Brown is a bonafide, just straight up NBA starter level kind of player, and he's added stuff to his game, like, tangibly. Way better shooter this year. Like anytime. This guy used to dribble the basketball in the past, I used to want to grab a tums, but now it's like, okay, this isn't the worst thing that I've ever seen. But outside of that, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You can't say to yourself, this is the rotation I'm gonna ride and die with with straight.
- [24:51]
Rob Mahoney
It's almost like the two timelines thing doesn't work.
- [24:55]
Justin Verrier
Hasn't yet.
- [24:56]
Rob Mahoney
It's so crazy to think about that.
- [24:59]
Justin Verrier
Well, here's the. Here's the complicating factor. This is already way too complicated. Both Brown and Watson are up for rookie extensions this year. Even if you wait until next offseason, the money is going to get complicated very quickly. And so you might be saying like, oh, all we need are two adults in the room. Let's just go out there and get our new equivalent of Bruce Brown and Jeff Green and we'll just like, we'll have enough of a rotation. That's all we actually need. Unfortunately, it's going to be really tough to do to bring back Brown and Watson and do that and So I have to imagine not only might you have to trade Michael Porter Jr. Who we're all kind of talking around, might not be long for this world. He only has two years left on his deal. The second year is only like a third of his 41 million is guaranteed. So I think that would be attractive to some people. I think you only not only need to break him into rotation players, you also might need to break him into younger rotation players because the money is going to get very complicated or need guys on expirings just to give these young guys another year. And so I don't know. Rob, do you see a pathway through here? Does is it as simple as trading MPJ for like rotation players?
- [26:05]
Rob Mahoney
I think that is the path. The question is, who does that appeal to? Like what teams in what position are like clamoring?
- [26:11]
Waz
Why do you want to MPJ on your team?
- [26:13]
Rob Mahoney
I think it's tough because he's shown in the, in the limited stretches where the Nuggets have called on him to create offense or carry certain bench lineups or whatever. It's like he's not particularly attuned to that, like, to that kind of bulk creation. He's not a great like off the dribble shooter, per se, off the dribble scorer. Not the most dynamic guy with the ball in his hands other than as a catch and shoot threat. And he's a, can be a really, really good catch and shoot threat, has a jumper that's impossible to block. All that stuff is really valuable for the Denver Nuggets. If you're a team that's rebuilding and looking to offload, say you're the Brooklyn Nets and you're like, okay, let's package a couple of veteran role players for Michael Porter Jr. Does that get you literally anywhere? I kind of don't think it does. And so the path is, yes, ideally you want to trade Michael Porter Jr. For say, two good role players who can hang in a series like this one. That would be ideal. Is that realistic? I don't know. They're also going to have to mind the market on the like, on the edges, on the fringes for, as you said, Justin, the next Bruce Brown, the next Jeff Green. Those guys don't just grow on trees. They're going to be in heavy competition for all of these other apron teams that are looking to get good veteran help on the cheap. Although one of them might just be Bruce Brown, to be honest with you. Who has like a 23ish million team option for next season? I think so. The Pelicans are probably not just going to pick that up.
- [27:30]
Justin Verrier
I think he's a free agent now. I think he's unrestricted.
- [27:32]
Rob Mahoney
Is. Is he. Is he officially past his deadline? I think the deadline is a summer deadline, though.
- [27:37]
Justin Verrier
I think his team option was for this season that he just played in. I think he's.
- [27:42]
Waz
Oh, you're right.
- [27:43]
Rob Mahoney
You're right.
- [27:44]
Justin Verrier
Yeah.
- [27:44]
Rob Mahoney
Got you. So will be an unrestricted free agent also was just, like, popping up for some Denver playoff games and is beloved there. I would not.
- [27:52]
Waz
He misses the team, so, you know.
- [27:55]
Rob Mahoney
Maybe he'll go back around with those guys. I don't know.
- [27:57]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, they don't fit as well in New Orleans, let me tell you.
- [28:00]
Rob Mahoney
No, but. But, you know, the Mountain west, all of a sudden, we're talking.
- [28:05]
Waz
Look, the MPJ thing, you guys know, I've been trading this guy for, like, three, four years now. Um, I. I, like, I don't. I don't think he's worth what he's being paid. The problem is, I think MPJ's ideal role would be to be what Tobias Harris was on, a young team. It's like, oh, we're trying to take a step. Let's get a guy who's proven that he could do at least shoot. And at times he'll show himself to be kind of competent on defense. Whatever. The problem is, they paid Tobias Harris $12 million to do that. This guy has $80 million left on his deal. Two years. 80. How do you fill out a roster that you're just like, oh, okay. We're just trying to get our young guys to develop, and we want to put this thing like, we know this is a known commodity, his competent shooting. Like, I don't think they're going to be able to move this dude. That's why he's been on my worst contract. Listen, for like, two, three years running. Like, this kid sucks. I'm sorry.
- [29:15]
Justin Verrier
I think it's very telling.
- [29:16]
Rob Mahoney
Sucks is strong, but.
- [29:17]
Waz
Okay. Sucks is strong. Sucks is strong, but he's very inconsistent. And in the best of times, it's like, okay, he's making open jump shots.
- [29:29]
Justin Verrier
Yes. Where is the star level pop to his game? That was foretold when he was, like, the number one prospect coming out of high school. Seems like he settled into the role that he's, like, best suited for, which is just a big old shooter who help you with the size advantage and we'll just spread the floor for you, which is like a very helpful player. But at 40 million to 1, point is I Think it's very telling that for virtually every team that is up against the cap or like, man, they basically need to turn this guy into two lower paid role players. And we always identify the Nets as the team to facilitate that. It seems like the Nets are going to have to like basically open things up for nine different teams at this point. Which shows you like, has it how shrewd a team like the Clippers was getting ahead of this, like not doing the Paul George trade and kind of chopping him up into Chris Dunn and Derek Jones Jr. It's just like it seems like teams that did that earlier are in a kind of in the capper seat right now also.
- [30:23]
Waz
Again, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Jamal Murray At 50 mil per, it's not great.
- [30:31]
Rob Mahoney
Okay? Jamal Murray had a great playoff run until, until this game seven. Had a great playoff run also.
- [30:38]
Waz
Wait, hold on. He had a great playoff run, Rob, by what standard are we talking about?
- [30:45]
Rob Mahoney
By the standard of like he didn't.
- [30:47]
Waz
Play like he did in the regular season.
- [30:49]
Rob Mahoney
Okay? He, he was, he's been one of the best players in the postseason. Like not top five, but one of the best performers in the postseason.
- [30:59]
Justin Verrier
One of the top 24 postseason performers, without a doubt.
- [31:04]
Rob Mahoney
Jamal Murray, I think he's been really good. Do you, you, you haven't been impressed at all with, with the shot making, with the playmaking, with the contested drives? Like I don't want to good at.
- [31:15]
Waz
All, but like I guess he's been as good as Karl Anthony Townes and Pascal Siakam, I guess.
- [31:22]
Rob Mahoney
I think he's been like largely better than those guys in particular against the best defense in basketball. Okay.
- [31:29]
Justin Verrier
I would say he's been very good. It's just the inconsistencies just pop up at the worst time for him, including in that Game seven. It's just like that's, that's a perfect moment for him to have one of those 30 point explosions. He has been sick for sure.
- [31:40]
Waz
But $90 million on him and MPJ, bro, that's not ideal, dude. Like as much as they, they're, they ask Jokic to do so much and they pay those guys 90 million a year. That's crazy to me.
- [31:55]
Rob Mahoney
Here's the issue with the 90 mil proposition is like, I feel like so many seasons we're going to go through and get to this point and be like, man, they really asked a lot of Nikola Jokic just to get through the regular season. And some of that is because you're paying Michael Porter Jr. A lot of money. And he is what he is, which is someone who's reliant on other people to create shots. Some of that is because Jamal Murray is who he is, who is a guy who does get injured and also is not locked in like that in the regular season. Like there are guys who get paid a lot because they get you to the playoffs in one piece. And Jamal Murray is not that he's paid a lot because when you get to the playoffs, he's a really high level performer. And honestly, the Nuggets need both and they don't have enough of both right now. And so then Jokic gets taxed on both ends.
- [32:36]
Justin Verrier
That is the code that the Thunder broke. They have both. They're one of the few teams that have high end talent plus depth. It's so tough to come by, but the few teams that are still with us all still have it. I will say one last thing on the Nuggets. Rick Altoman. Waz, is your guy from Mad TV coming back or what do you think? Oh, David Adelman, David Adelman, sorry, Rick Alderman.
- [32:57]
Waz
I mean, how do you not bring him back? How do you, how do you view his tenure in the interim as anything but a rousing success? How do you not bring this guy back?
- [33:10]
Rob Mahoney
They will. I think they will. That would be my, that would be my full assumption at this point based on his postseason performance and also based on the fact that as I guess he's no longer a first time head coach, but still kind of a first time head coach is going to be within the price range of what the Nuggets want to pay.
- [33:26]
Waz
Three mil. Get it done.
- [33:30]
Rob Mahoney
That sounds great.
- [33:35]
Justin Verrier
FanDuel's turning your bets into bigger wins with a parlay profit boost. That's right. Build a same game parlay or parlay and you could boost your winnings by 30% with a profit boost. You pick the team's players, stats, all of it. FanDuel just adds a little fuel to the fire. Whether you're betting three pointers, home runs, goals or birdies, FanDuel's got markets across every sport and every game. And the best part, when you win, you'll get paid instantly. So go check it out. FanDuels where your parlay gets paid even bigger. Head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get started. FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook must be 21 + in present in select states or 18 + in present in DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any Token expiration and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-gambler or visit rg-help all right, let's flip to the Western Conference Finals Thunder, your one seed. Your Minnesota Timberwolves, your six seed. So they played four times in the regular season. Three of those games were in a three out of four set. So within four games they played three times and two of those was a back to back in February and Rudy did not play in any of those three games. And I believe Jalen Clark started. So if you were to go back to the regular season and try to find something about this matchup, I think it's kind of a fool's errand because once again the stupid back to back or three and four, which honestly I can't remember another team playing strikes again. So just another shout out to the schedule makers the NBA for fucking us not only in the regular season, but it carries over into the, into the playoffs. I have to suppress my urge to like want to believe in the wolves here despite the fact that as I was going through the prep for this, Rob, everything is like shouting at you, no, don't do it like this. The Thunder the perfect team to just make and the Timberwolves lives miserable just because of all the turnovers and all the defensive complications they present. Do you see this as a pretty clear advantage for the Thunder?
- [35:49]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know that it's a clear. Here's the thing. There are clear advantages. Will that manifest in a short series? No. Will that mean it won't be a fight? No. Like, I think this will be a really tough, hotly contested series, but I think it's something more attuned to the kind of fight that the Thunder are used to. I would, I would not be surprised if when you watch OKC in this series, even though it's competitive, the margins are close, there's something about their play that feels like a little bit of a breath of fresh air. Even though Minnesota is one of the best defensive teams in basketball just because they survived this run in with the Nuggets, they survived this run in with Nicole Jokic. Like they got through it and they got to a matchup that felt feels more in their wheelhouse like a perimeter oriented team that's reliant on ant to create where they, their turnovers can like really, really make hay. That feels like the way the Thunder want to play and it feels like ultimately the balance is something that really, really suits them. And so the, the Turnover battle is probably going to decide a lot. And this is the number one turnover forcing team in the playoffs against the highest turnover team left in the field.
- [36:51]
Justin Verrier
Jesus.
- [36:52]
Rob Mahoney
Minnesota is just doing shit out there. Like sometimes they will just make mind numbing mistakes. Like I, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these games play out similarly to game seven, where all of a sudden the Thunder have 37 points off turnovers. Right? And it's. So then it's like all of Minnesota's half court defense, which is incredibly formidable, is a little bit muted or at least they're able to kind of circumvent it by working in transition off those turnovers.
- [37:18]
Waz
I don't know, man. I think they're going to have a hard time with this team.
- [37:21]
Rob Mahoney
It's still going to be hard.
- [37:23]
Waz
I think they're, I think one Minnesota, like we say, perimeter oriented, but they're now an inside outside team because Julius Randle, Hell yeah. Is an inside player. Like this guy is hard to stop in the paint. Like they're going to have to divert resources, extra resources to stopping this guy from scoring inside. I know my brain also wants to explode, but this guy has been insanely good. Like he's been one of the best players in the playoffs, period. And then obviously we know what Ant is doing on the outside. But for me, honestly guys, I think it's just Minnesota's athleticism and size because like Denver had size, they didn't have a lot of athleticism. Minnesota has size and athleticism. They are going to be a whale of a defense man for precisely the kind of things that OKC wants to do. Where like in the Denver series, Denver is running, let's face it, a lot of like gimmicky kind of zones. And well, we're going to concede it to Lou Dort. We're going to concede it to, you know, some of these other guys. We're going to let Hartenstein take a wide open floater. Like they're like, all right, in order to keep some level of integrity to our defense, we're just gonna give shit up. Minnesota's not gonna have to play that way. They're gonna be able to guard these dudes straight up. They're gonna, like, the threes ain't gonna be completely uncontested. No, they're gonna have great rotations. Like these guys are gonna be incredibly tough for OKC to get their buckets against. And you know, that's before we even talk about, like when Shay is attacking. They don't have to Send as much help as the th. As. Excuse me, as the Nuggets did. Right. Like they have Jaden McDaniels, they have Anthony Edwards, like even you know, Nikhil Alexander. Like they have guys that. It's like yo, let's leave them on an island.
- [39:36]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [39:37]
Waz
You know, and see if Shaker score 50 that way. That's what I'm really worried for OKC. It's not like they could. Obviously they could guard Minnesota. I think their offense is going to be a slog in this series.
- [39:50]
Rob Mahoney
I don't disagree. I also think Shea is maybe more comfortable playing that way. Like we saw all through the regular season, ace defensive stoppers trying to slow down Shay one on one and nobody could really do it. You put that zone in front of him and it kind of like took him time to adjust to it and to figure out how to work the angles on that. And I'm not sure he ever did to a level that was fully elevated. Evading the Thunders half court offense like they figured some stuff out. He had an undeniable, an undeniably productive series. But there are elements of the way Minnesota guards that as you say, are more straightforward. They can stay at home, they can defend more honestly and I think Shea does pretty well with honest defense in. In a way that kind of concerns me for the Minnesota part of this.
- [40:33]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, I think a lot of this is going to depend on how much the Timberwolves can lean on their size advantage. And I think a lot of that is going to be dictated by the shooting success of okc. How many do we see? Denver being able to go into the zone or basically being able to pack the paint against Shay just because the shots weren't falling. You might say like oh, shooting variants etc. Etc. But through the playoffs overall there's only shooting 32% from 3. That's 14th among playoff teams. And they're still shooting at volume. This isn't like Denver who is going to take a select amount of threes and maybe they'll make or miss it. But they execute on such a high level. Like the Thunder need those threes to open things up. And I think if they are not doing that, then Rudy gets to stay on the floor and basically is a deterrent for those shade drives. And then on the flip side, can he be something like he was in that one game against the Lakers where he can be more of an offensive threat? I don't know. And that's when things start to get a little tricky. But I do think like on the one hand, Denver was the toughest probably opponent for the weaknesses that the Thunder presented. Right. Because that if the threes aren't falling, then it becomes a lot about execution. Denver's the worst team you want to face in an execution battle. I do wonder the Thunder, the Timberwolves will get to that level, but do they have certain advantages if from that set in order to maybe lean on that in order to win the series? And I think first and foremost it starts with Rudy. Yes. But also Julius Randall, where it's like if they're going to send extra help at and and I assume they will just to get the ball out of his hand just to create more turnovers, as we saw throughout the playoffs. Well, is Randall going to be like a high level playmaker and get those other guys involved in the way as he has? And I think both those would be like, oh, maybe. But if we're just going based off of the postseason, I think it's probably yes, yes.
- [42:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [42:16]
Justin Verrier
So all of a sudden that becomes like a new advantage that nobody was factoring in. And we might be talking to ourselves, Rob, at this point, like, Julius Randall might swing the Western Conference finals.
- [42:26]
Rob Mahoney
He absolutely might. And that's another element as far as like throwing out the regular season series because of that three and four that you highlighted. Julius Randle played in none of those three games. And so then you see, okay, ant shot like absolute shit against the Thunder in the regular season, but that's because he didn't have his second creator on the floor with him, not to mention Rudy Gobert in some of those contests. And so ultimately, a healthier, more balanced the version of the Wolves that we've seen in the playoffs with this version of Randle is so much more formidable. That version of Randall is going to have a test unlike anything he's seen before, which is driving, yes, with a size advantage, but with eight other arms swiping down at every dribble, he takes in the paint at every pass he tries to kick out. That's going to be a real test of his patience, of his ability to read the floor. I'm curious to see kind of how the Thunder want to guard him on ball to begin with. I assume that's going to be a lot of J Dub, who just, I thought, did quite a good job with Aaron Gordon when he was healthy in terms of dealing with that strength, quote, unquote disadvantage, but really holding his own. Also would not be surprised if we see a lot of Alex Caruso on Julius Randle mucking things up the way he did with Jogic. I also would not be surprised if we see Caruso on Rudy Gobert at points in this series.
- [43:32]
Justin Verrier
Would you start Caruso at this point or like. Because I think the beauty of the thunder as we outline is that they won't like, shy away from just going single big game one. I don't know if that's chat or Hartenstein. I think Hartenstein has a probably more of an advantage against Rudy where check is giving up size. But if you want to lean more offense wise, like, you're probably going chat. Let's have the drivers and, like, hope to blow them off the floor by halftime. Do you think Crusoe should start? I guess.
- [43:58]
Waz
I know there are people who think, like, you need to just throw out what you think is your best stuff automatically. I kind of like the curveball element, like, see if your too big stuff can work. And it's a long series. Give yourself the opportunity to have counters. You know what I mean? If you just come out and be like, oh, our Caruso thing, and then Minnesota responds, it's kind of like, you know, a punch to the gut when that happens. So I honestly do understand why coaches and Ty Lue is like this. Like, he will wait till like 3, 4 games into this series to switch his stuff up. And I understand that. Honestly, I. I don't think they should just go, all right, yo, we're dedicating. Cause I think there's something to like, we're dedicating this game plan to you guys. We're changing who we've been all year because we're scared of Rudy Gobert and Julius Rand. Nah, fuck that. We coming against you guys. We gonna play how we play. And if it doesn't work, we'll switch it up.
- [45:00]
Rob Mahoney
There you go. Have it in your back pocket. I think you're right, though. Wise, like, you gotta string it out as much as you can. And game one and game two are, I think, a trial of, like, what can you get away with? Can you get away with having your star off for this stretch? Can you get away with playing a little bigger than might make sense for this matchup? And like, Isaiah Hardenshein is important to this matchup whether he starts or not. He's important in a different way than he was against Denver. It's gonna be much more about his rebounding and his rim protection against Anton Randle crashing inside, then post defense against Nikola Jokic. But he's going to have to be a factor. And if you yank him out from the Start. I think you're already kind of testing the integrity of your rotation and you're testing the integrity of, you know, the psychology of someone like Isaiah Hartenstein. Like, you want him to feel confident about his place in the series and the impact he can have on. And so like, let him get out there against Rudy and box some guys out and pull down 12 rebounds in game one and see how those minutes go and see what you can get away with.
- [45:52]
Waz
And watching LeBron so much throughout his career, especially back when he was like legitimately still the best player in the NBA, game ones were almost like trial balloons. Like, literally they would treat this shit like, all right, we'll see what they got. We'll see what kind of defense they want to play. Let's see what the coverage is. Oh, they're covering the pick and roll this. Oh, when we bring this guy up, they do that. Oh, when like, it is a kind of like feeling out process. And that's why I'm like, man, start Hartenstein and see what these guys got.
- [46:23]
Justin Verrier
Especially when the game is two games after your game seven in the middle of the day on a Sunday. Now Thunder had the advantage that they are going to be home and they didn't have to travel from game seven and so they have that there. But like the fact that this is starting before the Eastern Conference finals is a little annoying if you're a Thunder fan. So maybe it will have to be a feel out game. The other thing I wanted to mention is Jaden McDaniels feels like this is a big time for him to continue the success he's had in the first two rounds. So overall in the playoffs right now, J.D. mcDaniels has a total plus, minus a plus 84. That is six. Tied for six in the playoffs right now with Tyrese Halliburton. The top five players unfortunately all play for the Oklahoma City Thunder. Part of that is because they just blew the doors off of Memphis, but.
- [47:13]
Rob Mahoney
Obviously and Denver and those like the blowout Denver games didn't hurt either.
- [47:17]
Justin Verrier
Right. And so it speaks to like the task at hand there. But also Rob, I think it speaks to Jaden being like such a big factor for them thus far. I think he's going to have to be it again because once Randle gets the ball in those advantage situations, what is Jaden McDaniel is going to be able to do? Is he be able to hit shots, be able to put it on the deck and attack a closeout? Seems like if he's going to be like on it then things start to swing in Minnesota's direction.
- [47:40]
Rob Mahoney
He's kind of a pair with Julius Randle in exactly that way. Justin, where it's like his ability to play big, to play to his size and his length has to be a weapon for the, for the Wolves offense. And it is kind of a test in its own way. Like, this is a guy who's not the most fluid off the dribble player even when he's attacking closeouts. Like, there's something kind of mechanical about the way he moves. Will he be able to knife through the rotating Thunder defense in the way that he's already been successful in these playoffs? I think he will. I think he's going to have a pretty big mark on this series overall. I think his ability to play and finish through contact is so important and even more important against a defense like OKC's, but he's got to bring it. Like he and Randle have to be the pressure points as far as using size against the Thunder and kind of piercing through all the rotation and all the help that those guys want to bring.
- [48:30]
Justin Verrier
I'm feeling a lot of Wolves optimism here.
- [48:33]
Rob Mahoney
I think it's there. Yeah, like they have a. They're really good and they have a strong case. It's just. Do you trust their decision making?
- [48:40]
Waz
Also, here's another thing that. And I know we're going to talk about the other playoff series, but like watching the Knicks legitimately again, when Tatum got hurt, they went up 9 with 2 minutes and 40 something seconds to go. They were about to go 3:1 on the fucking Celtics. Like, I don't know why I'm supposed to think the Wolves can't beat okc. Like after seeing what the Knicks have done, you know, or even Indiana, they just, bro, they wiped the floor with Cleveland. I get it. They had injury problems and all that stuff. They shouldn't have lost in no five games. Dude, they kicked that team's ass. That's why I'm just like, look, man, like the playoffs are just a completely different animal. And I don't know why I'm supposed to think that Minnesota has no chance here. Like, I think they can win this series.
- [49:36]
Rob Mahoney
They absolutely have a chance. And I think some of the counterpoint too, as far as the turnover stuff we were talking about earlier, is what if that doesn't go the way we think, right? If okc. OKC forces a ton of turnovers and commits, very few. Minnesota forces a ton in their own right. And so if the turnover margin isn't as favorable for the Thunder and it's maybe it's not equal, but something closer to. All of a sudden there's a ton of pressure on OKC's half court offense to produce. Right. Like then, then you're getting into a real rock fight where I think the Wolves are better suited to that kind of series than the Thunder are. So there's, there's ways that this thing, this thing could like level out really quickly. Even beyond the shooting. The shooting is impossible to parse. Like the Thunder were a good shooting team in the regular season from three. As you said, JV shot 32% for the playoffs overall and in that second round, I think you could take that as thinking that at some point they're going to shoot better. I would think many playoff teams have gone home lamenting the threes that they should have made. That's just a part of playoff basketball. I also think that the Thunder are terrifying in that they are the one team of these four that did not shoot well and still won. They have everything they need to win series against high level opponents, even when they don't hit threes. That's something the Wolves have to respect and that's something they have to be at least a little bit intimidated by.
- [50:52]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, I would feel a little bit more comfortable with their shooting if someone in the Wiggins, Isaiah Joe range like had just like a absolute scintillating night from three and even in that game seven, Wiggins missed a ton of them. Joe basically couldn't get on the floor because of his defensive concerns. Maybe gets a little bit more run in this series, maybe against some of their second units. But I don't know, it just, it seems like that might just keep happening and if anything they're going to have to win ugly. But we've seen it happen time and time again. Before we make predictions here, I do want to do a little bit of a legacy check. If we're going into this series, who are we saying has the most on the line? Big picture that like needs this series more than anybody else. Does anyone come to mind?
- [51:36]
Rob Mahoney
Terrence Shannon. It's make or break time to me.
- [51:41]
Waz
To me it's, it's Julius Randle because he literally is looking for a new deal.
- [51:46]
Rob Mahoney
That's true.
- [51:47]
Waz
Like, you know, if Ant doesn't come through, whatever, I got my supermax, Shay J Dub. None of this is going to change anything for him. Chad, Same thing. Julius Randle is literally playing for his next deal in real time. So to me he has the most on the line. Like cause he actually has money on the line.
- [52:11]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think we may have. We may have passed the threshold for J Dub where, like, if. Maybe if they hadn't gotten.
- [52:17]
Waz
It doesn't matter what he plays like, he's getting paid, bro.
- [52:19]
Rob Mahoney
Well, not just he's getting paid, but like the Thunder in terms of their confidence in the team that they have assembled and the shape of it, I think they've done enough to this point to say, okay, like, J. We see J Dub improving in certain ways. We know he's still kind of on that curve, but he's showing progress. This is going to be an interesting chat series, though. Like, it's one thing to feel a little bit marginalized offensively by that Denver zone. There should be opportunities here for Chad to hit threes. There should be opportunities here for him to fight inside a little bit. I. It's going to be a challenge. Clearly, like, he's. He's not super suited to that stuff yet. And yes, in terms of a legacy sense, in terms of like, are they going to trade Chet Holm Grin. I know. Obviously not, but it may. We may come out of the series changing how we think about him, depending on how he performs.
- [53:04]
Justin Verrier
Those are good picks. Have you guys sensed the pressure mounting not only on the Thunder to, like, live up to the ballyhoo of this regular season, but also on Shay now that he is the presumptive MVP winner? And the fact that they held off on giving anyone the MVP award was a little.
- [53:23]
Waz
Which was bullshit, by the way. Stupid. Dude. They should have presented Shea Gilgeous Alexander with that MVP award before game seven. Yeah, that would have been amazing.
- [53:35]
Justin Verrier
How about this ladder match before the game for the mvp?
- [53:39]
Rob Mahoney
They're both going for it.
- [53:41]
Justin Verrier
I like it.
- [53:42]
Rob Mahoney
No, it's much better theater.
- [53:44]
Waz
Amazing theater. Dude, listen, Dirk had to go up.
- [53:48]
Justin Verrier
Dirk had to go up and give the saddest press conference in human history when he accepted his after. He was great. They got their asses beat by. By the warriors. So. Yeah, no, there is precedent for this.
- [54:00]
Waz
Yeah, that would have added so much more juice to that game. The dude he beat out for MVP right there. Game seven. Like, I'm going to show you why I won this award or it's going to be like, oh, maybe he should won an award, you know, like, that would have been just amazing.
- [54:19]
Rob Mahoney
Dude, that's to me the lowest hanging fruit, as you say, to Juice, the competitiveness of an already super competitive game to charge the conversation around it. And it's all basketball oriented. Like, the NBA is constantly complaining about, like, oh, people focus too much on trade rumors. People focus too much on these things. It's like, that's straight basketball. And you had a chance to amplify the theater of the game within the game, and you chose not to. And I wonder if I don't know this. Just straight conjecture. I wonder how much the teams had a say in that if. If the Thunder and.
- [54:50]
Waz
Or the Nuggets, the 86 in that easily.
- [54:53]
Rob Mahoney
I could see the teams themselves saying, like, we would rather not. And the NBA going, like, following their lead on. So I don't know where the decision making came from. I just know as. As someone watching the game, I missed it. I'm sad we didn't get that opportunity.
- [55:05]
Justin Verrier
I just keep picturing Usman Jang, like, coming from the crowd with a chair. Like, he pulls a mask off. Oh, my God, the blood. No, but I wouldn't say I feel pressure for Shay, but it does feel like there's a lot mounting on him to, like, really make good, especially as the foul merchant stuff starts to build around him. It feels like people are like, all right, you almost won a historic amount of games. Let's prove it. I think there's a high possibility that they might. Where are you leaning, Rob, in the series over?
- [55:37]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, for. Well, for first of all, on the Shay front, I feel like we're a little bit harsh on him sometimes in that way because it was a matchup of MVPs. Like, the dude's averaging 29, 6 and 6. You know, it's, like, pretty fucking good.
- [55:50]
Waz
On the flip side, we're not talking about. We're not talking about Joel Embiid in the playoffs level numbers here, but you have to.
- [55:55]
Justin Verrier
He is great. Why is it laid out the blueprint? You have to be great, and then.
- [56:00]
Rob Mahoney
You got to be great again, and then you got to do it all over again. Like, this is what you got to do.
- [56:04]
Waz
Great. Then you have to do it in the finals.
- [56:06]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [56:06]
Justin Verrier
Yes.
- [56:07]
Waz
No, you have to be great. Then you have to do it in the playoffs. Then you have to do it in the finals. Then you got to do it all over the.
- [56:12]
Rob Mahoney
There we go. So we're midway through the cycle. I also wonder with him, like, how much differently would we be talking about Shea if anyone beyond Alex Crusoe could hit a shot? Like, if he's averaging 29 and 10. Holy shit. Right? Like, then it's a different conversation. It's like, I'm not sure he would be playing that differently under those circumstances.
- [56:30]
Waz
I think this is working out the way it's supposed to. Because I think there was a thought that the Thunder would mow people down. And quite frankly, if that was the case, the shit would be uninteresting. And I don't know that we would be looking at Shay because they wouldn't be doing it in a fashion where it was like, oh, Shay is just single handedly doing this. It'd be because his teammates were making a bunch of shots too. The way that it's unfolding right now, I think it allows for people to come to the realization like, no, this guy is legitimately one of the two, three best players. And on many nights he's the best player the NBA has to offer. And he's doing it series by series, game by game, crunch time, by crunch time. To me, this is the best possible outcome for Shay, man. Like, I'm happy he's having these moments.
- [57:23]
Justin Verrier
A hero's journey, if you will.
- [57:25]
Waz
Yes.
- [57:25]
Rob Mahoney
Truly. Joseph Campbell eats your heart out.
- [57:27]
Justin Verrier
Yeah. To be clear, I think Shay has been great. I think Jokic was great. And in the previous round, Jon Snow.
- [57:32]
Waz
Of the NBA playoffs.
- [57:34]
Justin Verrier
Right. It seems like.
- [57:35]
Rob Mahoney
Has he already died or is that still to come?
- [57:41]
Justin Verrier
All right, prediction. Before we go to the east, what do you guys got?
- [57:45]
Rob Mahoney
I think Thunder and six. I do think this is the series where the Wolves sloppiness catches up to them a little bit. And you can get away with that stuff against the Lakers and you can get away with it against the warriors without Steph. You get here with all these defenders waiting in the wings ready to pounce. If you get even a little bit sloppy, I don't know that the Wolves are going to have quite the same level of precision that Jokic and the Nuggets did. And so I think the Thunder will win at six.
- [58:11]
Waz
I think the Wolves are a classic play up to the level of your competition type of team. And I think they're going to meet the moment and win this thing in seven games. Big and Wolves.
- [58:22]
Rob Mahoney
Nice.
- [58:22]
Justin Verrier
We love it.
- [58:23]
Waz
And Edwards first NBA Finals appearance.
- [58:26]
Rob Mahoney
We should, we should say we now know categorically this will be seven straight seasons with seven different champions. Because none of obviously none of these teams are defending or have had a win in that span. Incredible.
- [58:36]
Justin Verrier
Do you like that?
- [58:38]
Rob Mahoney
I'm into it. I'm into spreading the wealth. I'm into widening the competitive window. And I think the variety of the way teams have gotten here as far as like how they got their stars, how they built their rosters, that stuff is exciting to me.
- [58:50]
Waz
I'm into the teams. But there is something to, like, every playoff being marred by, like, insane amounts of injuries.
- [58:57]
Justin Verrier
Dude.
- [58:58]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [58:58]
Waz
Like, that is. That's something that is really concerning for me, that every single playoff sits like this war of attrition. Look, the teams that we got right now are relatively healthy, knock on wood. So I'm happy for that. But, like, you know, like, Boston's run through the east last year, like, that shit sucked and it's not their fault. It's like they played a bunch of teams that got hurt. You know, they lost Kristaps. Like, that kind of sucks. That's the thing that kind of sticks in my crawl a little bit. But, like, the Knicks or the Pacers making the NBA Finals is crazy.
- [59:37]
Justin Verrier
Yeah.
- [59:38]
Rob Mahoney
Or the Wolves or the Thunder. Like, teams that have not been.
- [59:41]
Justin Verrier
Dude, I'll go. I'm going to go Thunder and six as well. As much as I could see it for the Wolves, like, my, like, core deep belief system wants to pick the Wolves because, like, I could see it in my mind's eye that it happens. But, like, when you break everything down, it's just like, God damn the Thunder. Probably the worst type of opponent that the Wolves want to see at this point. So I'll follow Rob on that one.
- [60:05]
D
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- [60:54]
Justin Verrier
From the producers of Long Legs comes Dangerous Animals.
- [60:58]
Rob Mahoney
A shark obsessed boat captain abducts young tourists to feed the ocean predators below.
- [61:03]
Justin Verrier
But when one defiant surfer fights back, he may have bitten off more than he can swallow.
- [61:09]
Rob Mahoney
Hasey Harrison, Josh Houston and Jai Courtney.
- [61:13]
Justin Verrier
Star in Dangerous Animals only at theaters June 6th. Get tickets now at Dangerous Curious Animals movie.
- [61:23]
D
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever finish a movie and the next thing you know you're totally obsessed? Like, I'm talking about ordering a book about 70s film, lighting, or buying the soundtrack on vinyl. Kind of obsessed. Whatever it is, prime helps you get more out of whatever passions you're into or getting into. Head to Amazon.com prime and follow your obsession wherever it goes.
- [61:46]
Justin Verrier
Eastern Conference finals, Knicks and Pacers. Luckily, we have two celebrity representatives for each team. It's basically like I'm talking to Pat McAfee and Spike Lee of the podcast realm right now. Do you guys feel something personal on the line?
- [62:05]
Rob Mahoney
Only in the sense that the level of gloating I will be doing if the Pacers make the NBA Finals will be unprecedented on this podcast. So just be prepared for that. But other than that, look, I just want to. I just want a good, clean series. You know, I'm here for some fun.
- [62:18]
Waz
I, you know, obviously I know my. My ties, my background. New York City is not a cliche. They are absolutely on fire for this freaking team. And not just the insanity that's going on outside of MSG every game, which.
- [62:32]
Justin Verrier
Is like, leave Wendy alone, guys.
- [62:35]
Rob Mahoney
Been through enough this year.
- [62:36]
Waz
I'm sorry. Wendy's my guy. I know I'm biased, but I was just like, come on, leave the man alone. Leave Wendy alone. After a long night of. Let that man get to his hotel room for room service, please.
- [62:51]
Rob Mahoney
Secondarily, do we know how that random Knicks fan got up on top of that video billboard? Do you guys know what I'm talking about?
- [62:57]
Waz
Yes.
- [62:58]
Rob Mahoney
How did he get up there?
- [62:59]
Waz
I don't know, dude. I'm still seeing videos from that night that I haven't seen yet. Just crazy shit. I'm just like, wow, that happened. Too insane. Them throwing a trash bag on the kid in the Pacers jersey.
- [63:15]
Rob Mahoney
Uncalled for. Uncalled for.
- [63:17]
Justin Verrier
How do we feel about the celebration overall that they won a second round series and New York just went insane? Like, they just won the finals.
- [63:26]
Waz
So here's the thing. I think my. My thinking on that has changed because of my fandom of European soccer, where they literally will celebrate anything.
- [63:34]
Rob Mahoney
More hooliganism, you're saying?
- [63:36]
Waz
Yes. Crystal Palace's Beatman City in the FA Cup. It's a big cup. It's a big, you know, the championship or title. The first time in their history. My timeline is just Crystal palace fans, like, crying they didn't win the league. They didn't, like, they didn't do something that is associated with, like, a crazy amount of prestige, but their fans are literally losing their minds. They've never achieved this before. So they're 22, 25. Shit, man. If you were three in 1999 or 2000. Like, you don't know Nick's success of any kind. I'm not begrudging these people for having a good time with it. I'm just not like, act like you've been there. They've never been there.
- [64:22]
Rob Mahoney
It's just very true.
- [64:23]
Waz
They never even been close.
- [64:24]
Justin Verrier
They can tell you what Cole Schved.
- [64:25]
Rob Mahoney
Days were not that long ago.
- [64:27]
Justin Verrier
Exactly. They could tell you what Cole Aldrit scored off the bench, like, for two years straight. But, yeah, they can't tell you or anything. Up from the glory days. Okay, I get it. It reminds me of, like, teams that tear down the goalpost on the one hand, like, go have fun as much as possible. But you are like, you're one of the fucking blue bloods here, man. Just like, it is a little unbecoming, but they want to do it, by all means. Rob, this, to me seems like a real stress test of the power of depth. It's like the clear example of a team built with, what, eight to 10 guys that they could throw out there versus a team that can throw out five. But I will say Mitchell Robinson, Miles McBride starting to show a little bit more. So are we at 7 at this point? Like, do you feel confident in 7?
- [65:11]
Waz
Mitchell Robinson's a guy. Straight up.
- [65:13]
Justin Verrier
He's a guy.
- [65:15]
Rob Mahoney
He's a. He's a guy. Here's the. I think we're in 6.5 guys territory because he's like, point.
- [65:20]
Justin Verrier
He's.
- [65:20]
Rob Mahoney
Mitchell Robinson is 0.75, guys. There's a. There's a margin for error there where he's getting fouled off the floor. Or just like is. Does not have it offensively or is getting kind of lost in the sauce of the way the Pacers play on defense. Like, those are all possibilities. Deuce also 0.75, guys, maybe that might be generous, but I thought he came on strong at the end of that last series in a way that I'm encouraged by and love seeing a good Deuce moment. I think he's going to have his shots and his chances in this. It's just. Is he going to capitalize on them or not?
- [65:51]
Justin Verrier
Can I give you a Mitch stat real quick?
- [65:54]
Rob Mahoney
I would love one.
- [65:54]
Justin Verrier
The Towns Mitchell Robinson, budding buddy cop. That's drama that's happening here. Robinson plus Towns in 90 minutes together in the playoffs, 77.5 total rebound percentage. It's not offensive rebounds. That's not defensive rebounds. They are getting more than three quarters of the rebounds when they're on the court together.
- [66:15]
Rob Mahoney
On offense, it's almost 40, 40 fucking percent of your own misses with those guys on the floor. That's remarkable. That's incredible. If Mitchell Robinson's minutes can stretch at all in this series, I think the Knicks are probably going to win it. It's going to be a matter of can the Pacers contain that? Can they contain his impact? This is a like, good, not great rebounding team for Indy. Like, I, I know like the numbers can pop in different ways, but as far as like actual guys on the floor in the trenches of a playoff series, you know, Pascal Siakam can get moved around a little bit. Miles Turner can get moved around a little bit. They're going to have their hands full trying to keep those guys off the glass. Plus, I would say as far as Indy's transition offense, offensive rebounding for the Knicks is one of the best ways to actually combat that. If you can prevent the Pacers from securing the board and getting out, then all of a sudden you're making the Pacers think twice about everything they want to do.
- [67:03]
Waz
I think if the Knicks can play defense with the level of commitment and intent that they did in game six. I don't know if you guys saw that Mitchell Robinson clip of him rotating literally to all five Celtics in the one possession.
- [67:23]
Rob Mahoney
I did see this.
- [67:23]
Waz
If the Knicks can play with that collective intensity and focus and dedication on defense, they're going to win this series. Because we know in close games they can manufacture buckets. Between Brunson, between finding little mismatches here and there, between even getting out on transition and clutch like they can Manu, they find ways to manufacture buckets in tight, tight situations. It's just a matter of don't let these games get away from you because you're playing stupid or ill informed defense or you're being lazy getting back or all of that kind of stuff. They're a low turnover team, so Indy's not going to be like killing them in transition like that, Bruh. If they play defense like they did against the Celtics in Game 6, the Knicks can go to the finals.
- [68:23]
Rob Mahoney
It's wild to think about, but that really is it, that the Knicks have, against all odds, become a defense first team. Like this group of players has become a defense first team. And I thought they did an outstanding job of keeping Boston out of the flow of the way that they want to play during critical stretches of that series, healthy or not. I think the Pacers are a different proposition in that way though. Like, there is not a Jason Tatum on this team, I say, with all due respect to Jason Tatum, who, like.
- [68:49]
Waz
They don't have the option of doing hero ball.
- [68:53]
Rob Mahoney
They don't.
- [68:53]
Waz
They can't play like that. So they don't.
- [68:55]
Rob Mahoney
They don't have the luxury of it. They don't have somebody like Tyrese Halliburton, if anything to a fault, wants to keep probing, wants to keep looking for the shot, doesn't want to, like, settle for the step back, although sometimes he certainly will. And so, like, they're. I think they're going to be moving the Knicks defense more consistently than even Boston's offense was able to.
- [69:14]
Justin Verrier
I do worry that if the Knicks win here, that every conversation we've had about depth over the course of the regular season, which was like 30, 37 at this point, might just, like, go to shit. Because I do think the Knicks have the perfect recipe in order to overcome that, not only are they getting some help from the two or three bench guys that they were kind of counting on, but also, like, their defenders. Yes, they weren't a good regular season defense, but they have the exact two sort of guys in order to match up with the Siakam, Halliburton, with Bridges.
- [69:42]
Waz
You're not wrong about the depth thing, though.
- [69:44]
Justin Verrier
Yeah.
- [69:44]
Waz
The reason they sucked over the course of the season, because you can't ask six guys to play like this for 82 games. Like, you're not wrong. Like, it's true. You can't ask six and a half dudes or six and three quarters dudes to play the way the Knicks have in the playoffs over the course of 82. It's not going to happen.
- [70:03]
Rob Mahoney
So you're saying I'm going to be united here. Yes, you're absolutely right. The three of us are going to huddle up, link arms, and we are going to refuse to be bullied no matter if the Knicks make the Finals. On the fact that depth does not matter. Of course it matters.
- [70:15]
Waz
It matters more than ever. I'm convinced of it. Like, even again, the Warriors, Steph Curry sustaining a muscle injury after basically playing for their playoff and playing lives for two and a half for two months straight after the trade in February, February to April, they are going balls to the wall, essentially, because they were so low in the standings. And this guy gets hurt. Like, there's something too. Like, you can't ask guys to treat the regular season like the playoffs unless you have 10 of them. And you can do it all right, one night, like, yo, Wiggins, you not gonna play like that. Kayson, Wallace, all Right. This night you're not gonna play like that. But guess what? In three games we gonna ask you to go balls to the wall. Like you can't do this man. With six dudes and like in the regular season with like OG and Mikail Bridges, don't feel like being world beaters on defense. Guess what? The next man up is the opposite of world beating. He's getting ran over by the world. Okay, like you can't do this over 82 games with some short ass rotation.
- [71:28]
Justin Verrier
Yep, I agree. I do think though like if we are just looking at starting five versus starting five, the matchups do look particularly juicy for the Knicks and not only defensively when they're on defense just because they have the two perimeter dogs that you're hoping to sick on the and these two best players. But also on the other side where it's like Halliburton is probably going to have to guard the worst offensive player, which is Josh Hart.
- [71:52]
Waz
And unfortunately Josh Hart, he can't guard Josh Hart.
- [71:55]
Justin Verrier
Not only is he a menace, but when he gets to the playoffs he shoots like he's fucking Steph Curry. And he's shooting 42% from three right now. Just what happened.
- [72:05]
Rob Mahoney
And he was awesome in the regular season matchup for that reason. Josh Hart, like a lot of tyres, Halliburton guarding him.
- [72:10]
Waz
That is he can't God Josh Hart.
- [72:11]
Rob Mahoney
Then where do you put him?
- [72:14]
Justin Verrier
Well, I think the hope would be that Towns is so squirrely in this series that it creates few like more advantages elsewhere. I think Towns getting back is going to be a concern. We'll see what he's going to be offensively. Is he going to put up more threes? Like what's the deal with the hand at this point? Is that preventing, I know you if is offhand but like is that preventing him from taking threes? Is he going to be more focused on like pounding in the post like he was in that Celtic series? Rob, as someone who just recently had a hand injury, like has it changed your game at all?
- [72:44]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, because my game does not exist anymore. I am not a Carl Anthony Towns. I am off the court until this thing heals up. So we got a couple of months to go. So yeah, I, you know, I empathize very clearly with Karl Anthony Towns. So I think it's had a really good playoffs despite that injury and found ways to be successful more inside than out and still with really high level shot making and high leverage shot making just not in the ways that we're necessarily used to. And that's going to be. That's going to be a question for him in this series. Like Indy is really good at taking away the stuff that O.J. anunoby relies on offensively. The Mikhail Bridges relies on offensive like that perimeter oriented catch and shoot offense. Indy's really good at neutralizing. The fact that Kat isn't so reliant on that right now, I think does work in New York's favorite. And you know he's going to have opportunities to try to bully Miles Turner inside, who I think has had a great playoffs. Miles Turner. That'll be a fun matchup to watch. But like overall, even just like who you guard with whom I there's so many different options to go with. Justin, you mentioned like if you're in New York, do you just put Mikhail Bridges and OG on the two best offensive players? I think that's probably the default. I would not be surprised if by the end or in critical moments of the series you have Mikhail guarding Tyrese Haliburton and you have OG an OB guarding Miles Turner to just like X out that pick and roll game. Like you're just going to switch that screen on the ball every single time. But on the other side of it, who do you guard? Who guards Jalen Brunson? Because Andrew Nemhard, despite profiling as somebody who should be able to do it.
- [74:11]
Waz
D. Smith was their best Brunson defender last year.
- [74:14]
Rob Mahoney
He was. But do you need him to guard someone like Kat? Do you need him to guard someone like OG like. But you know, the more you move the matchups around, if you're the Pacers, then Nemhard is guarding big. Tyrese Halliburton is guarding big. Like things can get really messy really quickly if you put Nismith on Brunson full time, which they honestly might have to do.
- [74:33]
Justin Verrier
Niecemith, another of those guys just shooting the hell out of the ball despite not being a good three point shooter.
- [74:38]
Waz
50% every time he makes it three, I think about Isaiah.
- [74:42]
Justin Verrier
It's a guy every time goddamn knuckleball out there. But he's making half of his nearly four and a half threes in the postseason despite shooting 29%. Do they just like these guys just come about and I just don't know what to do with them because all the history says one thing, the playoffs say another.
- [74:59]
Waz
I think the Knicks have more talent than the Pacers do. However, the Pacers consistently play above their heads. They just keep on doing it. Nismith, Nemhard, goddamn TJ o' Connell like.
- [75:18]
Justin Verrier
It'S a clear identity.
- [75:20]
Rob Mahoney
He got more Irish. What happened to him?
- [75:23]
Justin Verrier
Yeah.
- [75:25]
Waz
Like, they just play above their skis, man. Like it's, it's, it's incredible to watch. So obviously I think the Knicks are going to win this series. Um, they got like a little bit of Team of Destiny vibes to them, especially in these tight moments, like in the clutch. Like you just know they're going to make something happen, which is again, fucking insane. Um, but I don't, I don't discount the Pacers ability to win this at all. I think this is going seven. I think it's gonna be an all time slugfest of a series. Like, but I think the Knicks just, overall, man, like, they can force Nemhard and Neesmith and guys that aren't Siakam, that aren't Tyrese, they can force those guys to be, you gotta beat us. And I think that's a good winning formula, honestly.
- [76:21]
Rob Mahoney
Those guys can beat you though.
- [76:22]
Waz
They can in game. They will beat you though.
- [76:26]
Rob Mahoney
Daring Andrew Nemhard to beat you is not. I, I would not recommend it if you have that option available to you. And now look, this is what it is. You're right. I think the Knicks on paper are a more talented starting group. Have more, have more maybe like base talent in the rotation relative to what you think of the Pacers. We're now two straight seasons in which Indiana has the best half court offense in the playoffs. So all the transition stuff that we talk about, super fun. Obviously Indiana's really good there. Half court offense number one, two years in a row. The Indiana Pacers. That's Nemhard. That is Naismith. That's Myles Turner. That's Patkam. That's Obi Toppin becoming a half court weapon as much as a transition weapon. That's Tyrese Halliburton improving this year in his half court execution. His ability to hunt shots against certain matchups. One of them being guys like Carl Anthony Towns or Mitchell Robinson. Case in point. I think the Pacers are going to win this. I think the Pacers are going to the NBA Finals.
- [77:20]
Justin Verrier
Wow. We need to get. Have you ever seen for the Nebraska Cornhuskers, they have these like. It's almost like the cheese head equivalent helmet sort of thing, but it's a, it's a Corn Cob, so I would love it. I think we need to get that for you. You're General Corn Cob right now.
- [77:34]
Rob Mahoney
General Corn Cob reporting for duty.
- [77:37]
Waz
Rob Mahoney is picking the paces for the finals. I'm not Surprised, Honestly, the paces have been incredible for fucking six months, damn near now. Like, I mean, what do you want?
- [77:46]
Rob Mahoney
Well, as far as the team of destiny stuff, too, the Knicks have been incredible in those moments. I think the Pacers have played better, more consistent basketball overall than the Knicks have these playoffs.
- [77:55]
Waz
That's true.
- [77:56]
Rob Mahoney
And so, like, I think. I think their style of play, transition and half court is just. I think it's going to wear the Knicks down. I think it's going to wear those six and a half guys down a little bit over the course of these conference finals, and it's going to be. It's going to be tough to keep up by the end. I pick Pacers in six.
- [78:09]
Justin Verrier
I think that's the way to think about it, where it's like a team with such a clear identity of who they are that they never really stray from it. Nobody's really knocked them off, at least in this postseason thus far from that. Whereas, like, you're hoping for the component parts of the Knicks to, like, play above their heads. Like, OG for instance, is a guy who has to, like, routinely provide offense, and he has struggled at times, especially in that second round, where it's like, is he gonna come through? We need all of those five guys to play like all Stars functionally in order to get by. Whereas, like, if things go wrong for the Pacers, they're just, like, better at problem solving because they have more options. It's a lesser degree of what we talked about with the Thunder. Unfortunately. I am still going to pick the Knicks because the talent is so much more overwhelming. I thought you were picking a. I.
- [78:53]
Waz
Thought you were going to pick against the best Knicks since Willis Reed.
- [78:56]
Justin Verrier
Well, here's the thing. I look back at our preseason pods, our preseason variables, and looked at our.
- [79:03]
Waz
Eye on the Knicks.
- [79:04]
Justin Verrier
I picked Thunder Knicks. And now all it took was for me to abandon that opinion, like, after two months and have no faith in it whatsoever for most of the season. But I still think I got dibs on that. So, yeah, you get to circle back.
- [79:18]
Rob Mahoney
You have the right.
- [79:19]
Waz
I keep seeing my. Obviously, my algorithm on Insta is Knicks pilled. And I keep seeing this, like, compilation of a bunch of people picking the Celtics against the Knicks. I'm like, knick fans, did y' all really think y' all were gonna smoke the Celtics in six games? Like, y' all would go up three with, like, nobody thought this. Nobody's an idiot for picking against the Knicks. I'm sorry, they. They have not proven that they should not be picked against you know what I mean? This isn't like every year I would root against Tom Brady and fucking Bill Belichick and they go to the super bowl anyway. Y' all ain't that it's like people pick against you for valid reasons.
- [79:58]
Rob Mahoney
This run is fun and interesting precisely because no one was anticipating this from the Knicks. Including these, I would guess many of these same Knicks fans who I would say throughout the season had a mild dislike to sometimes utter contempt for this team.
- [80:11]
Waz
Dude. Dude. The amount of complaints of it like Carl Towns is so like up and down with the Knick fans. You know, Miles Bridges, who, like, I never noticed this quirk in his game until Nick fans brought it up where he never goes in for a layup.
- [80:27]
Rob Mahoney
No. Doesn't want to do it.
- [80:28]
Waz
People stop short.
- [80:30]
Rob Mahoney
Good mid range game though.
- [80:31]
Waz
Fade away Mid Ranger every. It's like, why is this guy post taking lambs? What's up with this, bro? They've been through hell and back with this team, but, man, it's all crescendoing at the right time.
- [80:46]
Justin Verrier
Could we do a quick legacy check here? Because I have the guy that does the early 2000s song covers for every Knicks game. That guy is a hero and he has been for us throughout this entire season. But I've seen people catching on. I saw they talked about him on that is it Roommates show with Brunson and Hart. That guy's going to hit the mainstream by the time we get to the Finals when the Knicks are in it, he's going to be doing segments on espn. I could already see it.
- [81:13]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I kind of want them to win just to see what he cooks up for the Finals.
- [81:16]
Justin Verrier
They've been good. There was like a rap guy that came in one time. They're expanding the ensemble, adding new pitches to his game.
- [81:24]
Waz
I think whoever comes out of the west is probably going to win the NBA championship. I do think that. I think the two Western teams are better than these two teams. However, that shit y' all saw after game six was a warmup, okay? Like Jesus Christ.
- [81:50]
Rob Mahoney
You're saying legacy check for New York's first responders.
- [81:54]
Waz
Do not let Jalen Brunson lead this team to a championship. Well, who has most of gained?
- [82:02]
Justin Verrier
Because I think Brunson is already king of New York sports and he's going to stay that way even if they lose in this round. Does Towns, for instance, go from like, oh, he's a guy that people know in New York to like a legend in perpetuity? He will be at these games 30 years from now where we're potting on AI?
- [82:20]
Rob Mahoney
I think so.
- [82:22]
Waz
Oh, yeah, he's finishing out that insane contract. Like, yeah. I mean, Josh Hart becomes basically.
- [82:31]
Rob Mahoney
He's already beloved too. Like, he's already a New York guy.
- [82:36]
Waz
Yeah. I mean, the Brunson legacies, it's crazy because it's like everybody's business. Like, it's like Walt, Claude, Frazier, Willis Reed, Patrick Ewing, Jalen Brunson.
- [82:49]
Justin Verrier
They'll name a bridge after Bridges.
- [82:53]
Rob Mahoney
He's already done more than Melo ever did as a Nick. Like, just straight up, as has done so much more. And it's. This is what's fun about the legacy talk for this particular series is it's all upside. Like, there is nobody who's like, oh, their reputation would really suffer if they didn't make the NBA Finals. Like, yeah, it's all gravy for both of these teams. They're playing phenomenally well and there's so much to gain by making the NBA Finals.
- [83:15]
Waz
So when they went to the conference finals, because, like, whatever. It got erased from my brain that after the finals run, they went to the conference finals in 2000 as well. Like, the team was legitimately good, but nobody says, like, Latrell Sprewell carried them or Alan Houston carried them or Marcus Camby carried them. You know, like, it was like a collective group. It's not like they had this guy who every fourth quarter was putting a cape on. The way that it's happening with Brunson, it's just a completely different situation, man. Like, Like Knick fans feel confident when this guy has the rock in his hand in the fourth quarter. In a way that's just never been the case in my life for watching the Knicks, I'm. I. I grew up during the Pat Ewing finger roll debacle, you know, like, I grew up during that John Starks, three for 18. Yeah, but like, that's what I know about the Knicks in the clutch in big moments. And Brunson has just been the opposite of that.
- [84:12]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, maybe that's the legacy. Check is teams led by point guards. We have not seen a lot of them have breakthrough finals type runs or championship runs like either of these teams would. And yeah, Brunson in particular, OKC is.
- [84:24]
Waz
A point guard driven team.
- [84:25]
Rob Mahoney
Absolutely. Absolutely so. And fair to say. I think Brunson being as small as he is and like the Iverson adjacent sort of appeal of watching a player like that overcome incredible odds. Not to mention like how many years ago that we were having like the Becky Hammond, Jalen Brunson sized players can't win in the playoffs conversation. Like, remember there was this whole line of punditry. I. Who knows, honestly at this point? But like, that conversation has been out there and is in front offices too. As far as like, what. Which players do you want to build around? Do you want to. Do you want to bank on somebody who's six one?
- [85:00]
Waz
You want to bank on Kawhi and LeBron in their primes? Yeah, I get that. But like, sometimes you can't get that kind of players, so you got to build another way.
- [85:10]
Justin Verrier
I do think if we're talking about point guards, Halliburton deserves a mention here because right now I think there are a couple of people I won't name names who are like, hesitant to put him into like the upper echelon of.
- [85:21]
Waz
Guys or maybe just one.
- [85:24]
Justin Verrier
We want. We don't want to like, nitpick and like throw people under the bus here.
- [85:28]
Rob Mahoney
I will. I will never forget watching opening night with you guys and Justin trying to soft launch his Tyrese Halliburton is overrated take in the room.
- [85:37]
Justin Verrier
He was. I was right. For half a season. He played like he was playing like crap for half a season. Apparently he was.
- [85:43]
Rob Mahoney
He came around.
- [85:46]
Waz
He did. He turned it around in January.
- [85:48]
Rob Mahoney
No doubt.
- [85:48]
Justin Verrier
If he makes the finals though, we're talking like, you know, top 10, top 14 Brunson range for him, I think pretty consistently, like, you pass a threshold and you can't really come back from there.
- [85:59]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [86:00]
Waz
And the thing is, like, point guards used to be like this, like Stockton and J. Kidd and Gary Payton. They weren't like, nowadays you gotta be like Brunson as a point guard. You gotta be like John Moran. You gotta be like a threat to absolutely score for people to take you seriously as a point guard. But like, point guard elite point guards used to come in this package and we used to be fine with it. It's just like now point guards have become these guys. Like, you know, Derrick Rose in his MVP season. Like, no, these guys. Russell Westbrook when he was in his prime. Like, no, these guys have to be killers on the ball. They gotta be, you know, scoring threats every time they touch it. And Halliburton is sort of, you know, subverting that. It's crazy.
- [86:50]
Justin Verrier
Just call him an engine now and makes it sound cooler. It's like, oh, you don't have to score. You're an offensive engine. You're a hub.
- [86:58]
Waz
Blogger. Talk.
- [86:59]
Rob Mahoney
I'd say it sounds like a Kyle Manism to me. So maybe there's some overlap with the blogger. Talk talk.
- [87:04]
Justin Verrier
Spending too much time with Kyle, man. Unfortunately, Just seeping into my, my, my words here. All right, let's wrap it there. We'll be back Wednesday night. Talk about Game one of the Eastern Conference Finals. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll talk to you next time. Must be 21 + and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York.