The Improbable Pacers Finish Off the Knicks. Plus, an Early Finals Lookahead. | Group Chat

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ringer NBA Show – “The Improbable Pacers Finish Off the Knicks. Plus, an Early Finals Lookahead.” | Group Chat

Release Date: June 1, 2025
Hosts: Justin Barrier, Rob Mahoney, Wosny Lambre (Woz)

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1. Series Recap: Pacers Dominate the Knicks

The episode kicks off with Justin Barrier setting the stage for a comprehensive discussion on the Indiana Pacers' stunning victory over the New York Knicks in the Eastern Conference Finals. The Pacers’ improbable journey culminated in their triumph over the Knicks in Game Six, securing their spot in the NBA Finals.

Rob Mahoney expresses his elation:

“I feel great. ... It felt like Pascal Siakam looked like Michael Johnson out there on some of these fast breaks. …” [02:51]

Woz highlights the Pacers' relentless pace and teamwork:

“These guys have a singular vision for how they want to go out and attack and beat teams.” [03:39]

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2. Key Performances and Strategies

Pascal Siakam's Ascendancy:
Siakam's performance was pivotal, showcasing his evolution into an all-attack player within the Pacers' system.

Rob Mahoney praises Siakam's adaptation:

“An incredible game from him … just tremendous work from him.” [05:14]

Tyrese Haliburton's Impact:
Haliburton was instrumental in orchestrating the Pacers' offense, demonstrating exceptional playmaking skills that disrupted the Knicks' defenses.

Woz emphasizes Haliburton's role:

“Like what he's doing … the Pacers drag Jalen Brunson and Kat into as many actions as they possibly can.” [09:58]

Defense Dominance:
Andrew Nemhardt's defensive prowess was crucial in limiting Jalen Brunson's effectiveness, marking a significant improvement from previous postseason performances.

Rob Mahoney commends Nemhardt:

“Incredible defense from Nemhard showed up at a time where he absolutely had to show up.” [05:14]

Bench Contributions:
The Pacers effectively utilized their bench, playing eleven players with meaningful minutes, which contrasted the Knicks’ reliance on key starters.

Justin Barrier notes the depth:

“They played 11 guys in this game, seven plus minutes. And all of them had certain moments.” [06:55]

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3. Player Analysis and MVP Discussion

Pascal Siakam vs. Tyrese Haliburton for Finals MVP:
A spirited debate ensues regarding who deserved the Eastern Conference Finals MVP award. While Siakam showcased outstanding individual performances, Haliburton's overarching impact on the team's system was also highlighted.

Woz supports Haliburton:

“I would definitely go Halliburton.” [18:27]

Rob Mahoney provides a balanced view:

“Either one is perfectly fair. … I would probably go Halliburton.” [18:27]

Justin Barrier elaborates on Siakam’s versatility:

“He is coaching these guys up, man. So, yeah, it’s all of that stuff combined to make him look just incredible.” [15:16]

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4. Knicks' Future and Roster Strategies

Off-Season Considerations:
The hosts discuss the Knicks' potential moves in the offseason, debating whether the team should overhaul its offensive strategy, make roster changes, or possibly consider coaching adjustments.

Justin Barrier critiques the Knicks' offense:

“We need to revamp what they're doing on offense. They need to take a long, hard look at just making it easier to score.” [25:17]

Woz suggests leveraging offensive threats:

“You should be able to leverage how dangerous Brunson and Cat are into something that can be consistently good.” [27:58]

Rob Mahoney emphasizes team cohesion:

“... we do not see that very often. But I just, I want to put.” [32:00]

Potential Trades:
The conversation touches on possible trades, including whimsical suggestions like trading Jalen Brunson for Giannis Antetokounmpo, though the practicality of such moves is scrutinized.

Justin Barrier humorously muses:

“So is Kat the new point guard in that situation?” [31:10]

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5. Early Finals Lookahead: Pacers vs. Thunder

Looking forward to the NBA Finals, the hosts analyze the matchup between the Indiana Pacers and the Oklahoma City Thunder.

Team Dynamics and Strategies:

• Indiana Pacers: Their ability to maintain high energy, strategic ball movement, and defensive tenacity will be critical.
• Oklahoma City Thunder: Known for their disruptive defense and high-paced offense, the Thunder present a formidable challenge.

Woz highlights Pacers’ preparedness:

“For me, Pascal Siakam's versatility and Rick Carlisle's preparation, that's a pretty good trio.” [50:42]

Rob Mahoney considers the Thunder's adaptability:

“They can jump those things if you take away some of the predictable stuff.” [47:04]

Justin Barrier contemplates the impact of pace:

“The Pacers pace is just so unique at this point. … it just seems like an advantage that's going to carry.” [48:53]

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6. Closing Remarks and Upcoming Episodes

The episode concludes with a teaser for upcoming content, including a full Finals preview and a live reaction show from Los Angeles.

Justin Barrier wraps up:

“We're going to come back on Wednesday to do a full blown variable style preview of the NBA Finals.” [44:50]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Rob Mahoney (02:51):
  “It felt like Pascal Siakam looked like Michael Johnson out there on some of these fast breaks.”

• Woz (03:39):
  “These guys have a singular vision for how they want to go out and attack and beat teams.”

• Woz (18:27):
  “I would definitely go Halliburton.”

• Justin Barrier (25:17):
  “We need to revamp what they're doing on offense. They need to take a long, hard look at just making it easier to score.”

• Woz (27:58):
  “You should be able to leverage how dangerous Brunson and Cat are into something that can be consistently good.”

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Conclusion

This episode of "Group Chat" offers an in-depth analysis of the Indiana Pacers' unexpected victory over the New York Knicks, highlighting key player performances, strategic insights, and future implications for both teams. The discussion extends to potential outcomes in the NBA Finals, setting the stage for further detailed coverage in upcoming episodes.

Transcript

[Justin Barrier]

This episode is brought to you by Buzzballs. Biggies ready to go. Cocktails that bring the party wherever you are. All their flavors are tasty, but you have to check out the big blue ball Berry Cherry Limeade. Yeah, you heard that right. Big blue balls, big flavor, big fun. Big balls just dropped this season. Grab a pair with Buzz Balls. Please drink responsibly. Available in spirit wine and malt ABV 15% Buzz Balls LLC. Foreign hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me in the black zoot suits ready for the funeral game, Rob Mahoney. Big was my question for you guys is so Tyres Halliburton won the game.

[Rob Mahoney]

So.

[Justin Barrier]

So he called his shot. But does he get points deducted for hearkening back to the zoot suit era?

[Woz]

Well, I think he might have missed the Met Gala. And that was actually the theme for the Met Gala this year was like the black dandy. So these big, boxy, nasty looking suits was like what people was rocking. And so this was his chance to be a part of that cultural moment here on one of the NBA's biggest stages.

[Rob Mahoney]

Genuine question. Do you think he got an invite to the Met Gala? And subsequent question, now that he's going to be an NBA finalist, do you think he gets one next year?

[Woz]

I would be surprised if he wasn't invited. Like Tyrese Halliburton has clearly hired PR people and image consultants. He's trying to be as famous as possible. So I'd be shocked if the people behind the scenes couldn't get Halliburton and invite some of the people at this point, they get invited to the Met Gala. Halliburton is actually worthy of it.

[Rob Mahoney]

But plus he runs the city of New York now. Justin, you know, like, this is his territory.

[Justin Barrier]

It's true. But does he always. Does he already have a stylist or is he freelancing? Because if he has a stylist, I would love to.

[Woz]

I promise you he's not freelancing.

[Rob Mahoney]

The newsboy hat didn't happen by accident.

[Justin Barrier]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need, you could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Considering the way he played in the Eastern Conference Finals and throughout this postseason. I think he could do whatever he wants at this point because the Pacers shut the door on the New York Knickerbockers. Game six. They're going to the NBA Finals. Rob Mahoney, how do you feel?

[Rob Mahoney]

I feel great. You know what? I feel like I've been wearing my black on black on black zoot suit in these pods all season trying to tell you guys that the Pacers had, if I remember from our pie conversation, like, a 1% chance to win the NBA title. And you tried to shut me down, told me it wasn't possible, it couldn't be done.

[Justin Barrier]

Not even a sliver.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not even the sliver of the pie. I'm ecstatic, honestly. Here's the thing. Like, there are teams that make the Finals because they are overwhelmingly talented teams. It is awesome to see the Pacers make the Finals because they are very talented in their own right, but also because they tapped into something much greater than that, much more important than that, and much more fun to watch than that. Like, how cool is it that one of the most entertaining teams in the league is going to the NBA Finals because they are also one of the best teams in the league.

[Woz]

Yeah, I love that. Rob talked about that thing, that ineffable thing that's in the air with these Pacers. And, you know, you call it a mind meld, you call it chemistry. I don't know, you call it continuity, whatever you want to call it. These guys have a singular vision for how they want to go out and attack and beat teams. And they are on it from Siakam to Miles Turner to, obviously, Halliburton. Like, everybody's getting in on this. We just play faster and harder than every single opponent. And that was the thing that got me today, man. Just the runouts, the constant runouts on makes or misses, turnover, it doesn't matter what it is. We are running out and beating these guys to the punch and just doing it. Every single quarter, they were doing it. And eventually, I think that's what caused the separation in this game, is the amount of points they didn't have to try to grind out in the half court. Meanwhile, I'm watching Jalen Brunson just pounding the rock 40ft from the basket with a dude draped all over him. I thought that was just the difference in today's game, man.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. I mean, if you had your head in the sand throughout this postseason and we're just watching this game, I think this was the representative sample of what the Pacers have done all the playoffs and like why they are in this position to was his point. It felt like Pascal Siakam looked like Michael Johnson out there on some of these fast breaks. I don't know how he got down the court so quickly. It was almost like he was teleporting at a certain point. But also also like to marry that with the defense Nemhardt was in. Jalen Brunson shorts Rob pretty much that entire game.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's just put this Andrew Nemhardt game straight into the loof like unbelievable performance from him doing frankly the one thing he hasn't really been able to do for two straight years, which is slow down Jalen Brunson to really impact Jalen Brunson's process. Amazing game from him. And I say that in basically independent of the fact that he finally started hitting shots. Incredible all around floor game. Amazing defense from Nemhard showed up at a time where he absolutely had to show up because the Pacers tried to put Aaron Neesmith on Brunson at the jump and it was clear that he wasn't getting around the screen super well. The ankle is still bothering him. That's going to be something we're going to have to talk about going into the finals now as well as Aaron Eastmith status and his health and his mobility because he's a really important part of this team. But Nemar delivering on the thing that he hasn't been able to do in this series that he wasn't able to do in last year's playoffs, affecting one of the best shot makers in the league and one of the most dynamic guards in these playoffs. Just tremendous work from him.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. And much like they had throughout this postseason, they're also using a lot of guys on top of that. It's funny that the Knicks kind of clawed back into the series by making use of their bench and for the Knicks that means using two extra guys. And to their credit, Delon Wright Shamit like they showed up yet again. Like the fact that they were getting credible minutes from those guys at this point was just a godsend. But then you see the Pacers go to the bench for their bench where they played 11 guys in this game, seven plus minutes. And all of them had certain moments. Obie Toppin yet again just with the dynamic dunks at the end just to punctuate things. Definitely salt in the wound there. But Thomas Bryant just a. A three in the center there coming back from the grave.

[Rob Mahoney]

I didn't think we were going to live long enough to see the Thomas Bryant game. I'm going to be honest with you.

[Woz]

I. I mean, there's been moments in his career where I was like, oh, I like this guy. He's like an energetic backup, big or whatever, but, like, recently he's been kind of bad. And so the idea that he would come in this game and splash three, corner threes, no hesitation, corner threes. By the way, this wasn't like, oh, the Knicks were slow in their rotation. He's like, oh, I guess I gotta take it. This is a catch. And immediately shoot it like he's Reggie Miller. Corner threes, which I thought was crazy. Had a transition take that he got fouled on. Um, just a transcendent game from. From that dude that. That was wild to watch. But, you know, that's the kind of thing when you. You're up three two, you've been the better team all series. You're at home, you got the home crowd behind you. That's the kind of confidence you can feel in those shots, man. There was no tightness to the Pacers whatsoever tonight.

[Rob Mahoney]

And again, it's about the stakes of these things. Like, Miles Turner was in foul trouble. So you get even more Thomas Bryant minutes than you may have bargained for. And for him to deliver in those minutes is even more important than basically any other sin he's played in this series.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, they used the full spice rack, I would say, in this game. And it's so crazy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Even the pre. Mixed Italian seasoning, I'm always a little wary of that one.

[Justin Barrier]

Oh, my God, they're using the. The ground oregano. They got the cumin out there.

[Woz]

There's everything. Bagel seasoning.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, we're better than that.

[Justin Barrier]

I think. The off brands from Trader Joe's for sure. No, it just. I think maybe it's a credit to the system yet again that they're able to mix and match there where everyone seems to be on the same page about what the role is. And in fact, like, when Matheran isn't giving them what they need, he's able to downshift it. Now, is he. Is he pleased with that? Probably not. He seems like a pretty headstrong, confident sort of guy, but like, he played nine minutes in this game and they didn't really miss him. Whereas if, like one guy for the Knicks isn't up to their level, especially when it's Brunson and Towns, it just feels like an existential crisis completely.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I think the reason that crisis exists is because the Pacers put you through so much in terms of trying to guard them in games like this, Trying to guard them in series like this. Like, for the Knicks, they had an amazing defensive performance in game five. Guess what? You get to come out and do it all over again. All of that ball pressure, all of that intensity, all of these actions and distractions that Indiana puts you through. Now you got to do it all over again, and they're ready for it. And I thought Tyrese Halliburton in particular came out with so much more, like, purpose in terms of the way he was attacking. He was actually breaking down that first line of defense, getting into the lane, creating problems that then you are nice floaters to the in between game. Like, basically put this game away with his floater officially. Like, that was kind of the killing blow in terms of building out this margin before the OB top and dunk contest started in earnest there. But even earlier, you know, like, he wasn't piling up points, but he was causing problems for the Knicks because they were overplaying him so much because they were trying to pressure so much. And so you have all that happening, and then at the same time, you have the Pacers dragging Jalen Brunson and Kat into as many actions as they possibly can. And then we sit here wondering, why does Jalen Brunson look so run down by the second quarter of this game? He's having to work his ass off just to stay on the floor, and he's having to do that because the Pacers make him do it.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, they were single, covering Brunson like he was Reavis island out there, like, pretty much the entire length of the floor. And it's crazy because things seemed even hard for the Knicks in this game in the paint. Like, they scored 54 points in the paint, but it just seemed like everything was difficult in the way that even it hadn't been before. A lot of times where the Knicks were just throwing their knees up just to, like, hit guys intentionally or unintentionally in the rewards.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's unbelievable.

[Justin Barrier]

But then, even when they did score, they would just be an instant run out the other way. There was one play in that fourth quarter where Towns did everything he possibly could, ultimately fell to the floor, and he almost looked like a potato rolling off the counter and hitting the kitchen floor. And it's just like, it would take me, like, 20 seconds to get up, but they were already. The action was already the other way, and he had to get his big ass up on his hobbled knee and sprint all the way back because that's what the Pacers force you to do. It's just like, it's an impossible task for most team, let alone a team that's a little bit more methodical and so dependent on so few players.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I mean, like, if identity is who you are as a team, when things aren't going your way, the Pacers are the team that run their asses off after every make. Like, Pascal Siakam is beating you down the floor. Tyrese Halliburton. TJ McConnell had a great hit ahead, too. I think it was to obi toppin for, like, a free bucket or a drawn foul. Like, they're just gonna put that pressure on you. And they're so good at getting the ball in so quickly, and they're so attentive in terms of knowing who. Where the release valves are on the floor in transition.

[Justin Barrier]

I know that Messiah, Jiri has been very complimentary of Pascal Siakam. It seems like they have a very close relationship, and he was very morose and, like, he was sad about, like, letting him go when he ultimately had to trade him to Indiana at the last trade deadline. Do you think there's any buyers or sellers remorse there? Because I'm watching Siakam, like, why couldn't he have just done a version of this with Toronto?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, they don't have Tyrese Halliburton, for one.

[Woz]

Yeah, that's what I think it is. Like, they clearly didn't have the bonafide engine of an offense or team, for that matter, the way that Indy so clearly did. Um, and they. And they felt that way immediately. Um, even if you love Scotty Barnes, part of the problem was, like, Siakam is playing the same position as Scotty Barnes. And, you know, there's that awkward tension of trying to make those two work in tandem with one another. And, you know, sometimes things just run their course. You know, it's like, Pascal had been there from the beginning, won a championship, you know, turn it to an all star, all of that stuff. And maybe it was just time to do something different. And I don't know. I don't. I don't think the Raptors would be, you know, replacing Indy in the finals had they not made the Siakam deal. Right. Like, I don't think anybody believes that. And so I don't think there's any Sellers remorse. You should be happy for Pascal.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the Sellers remorse is more like, it was a weird series of events that led the Raptors to kind of hold on to Siakam as long as they did like they had such a weird season.

[Woz]

It wasn't weird Rob. It was Messiah and Danny A they the same. They, they like to wait, wait, wait till the perfect trade. You can't make a good trade. It has to be perfect. And so they wait, wait, wait wait wait, wait, wait. And now it's like, all right, we just got to take whatever the hell we could get from Indy for it.

[Rob Mahoney]

That was not the perfect trade. Pascal Siakam though, even, I would say even then and especially now, it's just very clear he's an all NBA caliber player. Like whether he makes the team or not, he's always going to be kind of in that mix on the periphery. Absolutely deserves it. A two way weapon and I think to your point was about like complimentary skill sets. He and Scotty Barnes like good forwards who can make plays, can play off of each other but it's not the same as having a point guard like Tyrese Halliburton who's going to find you on every duck and who's going to find you on all those leak outs who you can run pick and roll with. And if they switch you punish them. Like you just can't do that if it's a Siakam Barnes pick and roll.

[Woz]

You know, pick and roll, pick and pop. I mean everything inverted pick and roll.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like I mean you name it, mid range post up.

[Woz]

It's crazy.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, you just like think back to that draft though and you wonder like if if the Raptors had been a little bit more intentional intentional about prioritizing Siakam as their guy and maybe not drafting Barnes who obviously overlapped with some of the skill sets there. Maybe got more of a Suggs type of player in there and then it's like a different sort of situation but ultimately circles back to what the Pacers I think have helped him to find. I thinking about this as was watching him go off for 31 in this game. And we should mention he ultimately did win Eastern Conference mvp. Eastern Conference finals mvp. I can't think of a system that has unearthed another level of a guy at his like already all NBA caliber. It's typically role players like I was thinking about Derek White in, in the Celtic system obviously the Suns and shooters like like tends to be be like guys who have a defined skill. Siakam went from a guy who was already an all star and it feels like he's added on top of that and this the system Halliburton, everything that they're doing there has just pushed him to another Level. And that's just a unique thing. And so if we're trying to explain why the Pacers are where they are, I think that's a big part of it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Woz]

One more thing, though, is that his jump shot has never been this reliable. It was not this reliable in Toronto, Bruh. Like, if he's open, like, it feels like it's going in from whatever distance he pulls that thing from. Like, that was kind of his fatal flaw back in the Toronto days was like, yeah, you could back up on him for the jump shot and it would be some ugly. Just bad misses oftentimes. And it could be above the. The only threes he would make all the time were the corner ones. But, like, now he can make every single shot on the floor. So you combine that with all the Halliburton and the system stuff, and again, Carlisle, man, I really do think he deserves his flowers. Like, he is coaching these guys up, man. So, yeah, it's all of that stuff combined to make him look just incredible this entire postseason.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's just been a perfect marriage in so many different ways. And Justin, as you were describing that of like, a player who's better than a role player, who tapped into his game in a totally different way, the way Siakam has for some reason. The first person who came to mind for me and the timing of this was different was Rasheed Wallace to the Pistons, where it's like, he's already a star, he has a lot of respect in the league, but then all of a sudden, he lands in the right place. It's like, oh, my. Like, this is just an ideal match of player, of culture, of fit of teammates. Like, everything just kind of locked into place for him here. And. And we're saying this about a player who's already been an NBA champion and Pascal Siakam, who's already been tremendous and accomplished. But this is a different thing. And him doing this in this way is a different level of achievement.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. And obviously Rasheed had all the off the court stuff or just on the court stuff that is typically off the court stuff.

[Woz]

And so off the court stuff, that was just weed. I mean, you know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, also, he just yelled at everyone. Well, anyone. So that was partly why he bounced around so much. Pascal, obviously did not have that.

[Rob Mahoney]

The conversation between Rasheed Wallace and Greg Doyle probably goes a little bit differently, I would say.

[Woz]

I think so. I think a lot differently.

[Justin Barrier]

What do you guys think about Pascal winning Eastern Conference Finals mvp? Do you think it should have gone to Halborn?

[Woz]

I probably would say Halliburton is the MVP of the team. I think he's the most important piece to what they do. But Siakam was incredible. Like, in. Like, he was credible. Incredible in an individual sort of way. Like, you could just watch him creating for himself, watch him scoring on all three levels, playing good defense, getting rebounds, like, getting in transit. Like, he. Like, individually, you could just isolate all the great things that he was doing. Whereas Halliburton, it is his, like, sort of imprint is being put on the game, even if the end result might not seem like Halliburton necessarily created it by himself. Even though we know intuitively, like, they're playing this way because of what Halliburton is creating. And so I understand why voters might be like, look, this guy just individually cooked people, because he did.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I'm guessing the vote is probably pretty close if we haven't seen the ballots yet. I'm guessing it is. Either one is perfectly fair. You know, I too, would probably go Halliburton.

[Woz]

I would definitely go Halliburton.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's yet another case where, yeah, it is about, like, comprehensive philosophical impact on play versus individual production in some of these games. And look, I think it's reasonable to look at tyrese Halliburton's Game 5 and say that a superstar's job is to show up in that game, and he didn't show up in that game in the way that his team needed him to. And that's perfectly fair to hold against him. Siakam hasn't had any games quite like that. He's had some underwhelming moments or times where maybe he's like, a little bit more of a background player during some Nick. Nick. Nick's runs than you might like. But ultimately, he. He showed up even more consistently over the breadth of the series in that kind of specific, productive way that voters tend to reward.

[Justin Barrier]

So to no one's surprise, Puma already has an add out for Halliburton playing off of the overrated quote. Overrated. Doubt that. And I have to say, this is the most mileage someone has gotten off of, like, nine players just thinking that you're kind of a loser in an athletic player poll in NBA fucking history. It's just.

[Woz]

Producer Ben Cruz says Halliburton lost a vote four to three to square.

[Rob Mahoney]

There you go.

[Justin Barrier]

Four or three. So it was close. On the other end, I have to say, Mitchell Robinson, yet again, might have been the best player on the floor. Like, I. I can't believe he's still Doing what he did to that team. I know obviously that was an advantage we all kind of spotlighted going into the series, but, like, he might be the best offensive rebounder on the planet.

[Rob Mahoney]

Amazing offensive rebounder.

[Woz]

First half, he was everywhere.

[Rob Mahoney]

The second, second half, didn't hear a lot about Mitchell Robinson.

[Woz]

No. The second half, every single. What you would associate with hustle stat, the tips, the runouts, like the fast break points, the turnovers, all of that stuff was all indie in the second half. New York Knicks did not participate in hustle stats in the second half of the first half. It was there. They seemed to be like, all right, guys, we're right there. We just need to get to the fourth. We need to keep this thing close. But once the second half happened, the dam sort of broke.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I thought, like, Brunson is hounded. Cat had a hard time just like getting out of his own way for a lot of this game. Also just had a hard time, I think, turning the corner and getting to the basket in the way that he had in the last few. Overall, I just want to say, like, I thought OG Anunoby was outstanding in this. In this one, like so many random, important baskets that kept the Knicks in it when it looked like the game was going to slip away from them. And when those guys were struggling, like Towns and Brunson combined for 16 in the first half and OG had 14. Like, he was the guy who was coming up with all the big plays. And that's in addition to just like next level defensive plays that basically no other guy in the league can make. Like some of the blocks and contests that OG Had, I genuinely don't even know how he got there. So credit to him for trying to keep the team in the game as long as he could. Like, the Knicks needed a big time Brunson and Cat game, and the Pacers did a lot to prevent that from happening.

[Woz]

Mr. Nick, Josh Hart did not have a great outing. Probably his worst game of the series. Y' all know how much I love Josh Hart, but good God almighty, was he horrible tonight.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's tough.

[Woz]

Yeah, tough to watch.

[Justin Barrier]

He's done even pretty much this entire series. This episode is brought to you by Buzzballs. Biggies ready to go. Cocktails that bring the party wherever you are. All their flavors are tasty, but you have to check out the big blue ball. Big berry cherry limeade. Yeah, you heard that right. Big blue balls, big flavor, big fun, big balls just dropped this season. Grab a pair with Buzzballs. Please drink responsibly. Available in Spirit wine and malt ABV 15% Buzzballs LLC this episode is brought.

[Rob Mahoney]

To you by Amazon Prime. Ever finish a movie and the next thing you know you're totally obsessed.

[Justin Barrier]

Like I'm talking about ordering a book.

[Rob Mahoney]

About 70s film lighting or buying the soundtrack on vinyl. Kind of obsessed. Whatever it is, prime helps you get more out of whatever passions you're into or getting into. Head to Amazon.com prime and follow your obsession wherever it goes.

[Woz]

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[Justin Barrier]

I mean, I do wonder was how Knicks fans are going to ultimately receive this postseason run. Is it they got so far after the regular season that was so mixed that like this was so unexpected. We're still in the halcyon days. Everybody's just ready to fucking let it rip whenever. Or do they look back on it and say we kind of missed an opportunity here. Everyone was hobbled. We like, we showed up in Game five. Like we had an opportunity to get back into the series. Like, do you think it's more optimistic or you think it's more disappointed?

[Woz]

I think you got to be optimistic. Honestly, I like, I don't see how a Knick fan could be honest with themselves and think the Knicks were a better team than the Pacers and didn't pull this out. Like, you can't actually, with a straight face make that argument. You lost to the better team. And I think why you should be optimistic again, like, there's no reason the Knicks organizationally should go into this offseason. Like, how the hell do we beat Indiana? Like, come on, you have to believe you have what it takes in your building to, to beat Indiana in a seven game series. And if I'm a Knick fan, honestly, I think like, you know, if this was the NFL, they'd be searching for a new offensive coordinator, if not outright, you know, a new coach, new head coach, an offensive minded head coach. Because the offense is just way too remedial. This offense just, there's no intricacies to it. There isn't. Tibbs doesn't have a Karl Anthony Towns package. Like, here's my package for Carl Towns. We're going to do this. Oh, when they stop this. All right, we're going to come back with this. Oh, they countered with that. Oh, we're going to do this. Yo, Brunson, here's how you set up. Like, no, there's no OG package. There's no Mikhail Bridges package. It's just roll the balls out, basically. Set a few screens, a few flares, come around to this. And, you know, Brunson's going to be great individually, or Carl Towns is going to be great individually. Like, to me, the Knicks need to revamp what they're doing on offense. They need to take a long, hard look at just making it easier to score. You have really good offensive pieces on this team. It should be better. And, you know, hopefully, like Mikhail Bridges getting the gym with Chris Brickley and learn how to shoot layups.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's kind of one or the other, right? Like, you either need that sort of advancement on offense, or you need a way to guard where you don't have these two huge targets on the floor between Cat and Brunson, and that's calling on those guys individually. Maybe that's a way to manipulate the lineups or who's playing or someone they bring in the off season. I. I don't know exactly, but you kind of need one or the other. And in so many ways, the Tibbs problem or the kind of like, Tibbs conundrum and the Cat conundrum are one in the same. And I think Jalen Brunson kind of factors into this, too, where it's like, you don't get here without those guys in some respects, doing the exact kind of job that they did. But then when you reach the highest levels of competition, some of Kat's faults are a little bit more frustrating. Some of Tib's inflexibility can become, like, feel damning in some of these games. And some of Brunson, like, and the difficulty he has in generating offense, which he's great. He's better at doing that than almost anybody in the league. But the fact that he has to do it to the extent that he does is kind of symptomatic of what you're talking about. Was. Which is imperfect process. Let's say that, yeah, I look at.

[Justin Barrier]

It one of three ways. If you're, like, in the front office couple days from now and you're just kind of looking back on what just happened and trying to plot a course for going forward, either you say, like, oh, Mitchell Robinson kind of completed us in that starting lineup in a way that I think might have some legs going into next season. Like, I think a lot of us were skeptical that ultimately he would be a difference maker and he ultimately was kind of a different. It took until late in the postseason. And so you might be able to say like, oh, let's spin that forward and we will just be a two big team, bring hard off the bench, bring in another credible role player and we'll just hit the ground running next year. That's one course of action. I think you could also say we need some reimagining with the offense, which is kind of what you guys are alluding to. I don't necessarily know what that is because it does feel like Brunson and Kat play such a methodical, specific style. I think you are boxed into like, you know, playing into their strengths. And so like, you're not going to get Mike, Dan and Tony in there in order to replicate what Halliburton is doing with the Pacers, you know, which is might be the impulse of only because a lot of teams when they do one thing, they want to go the complete opposite way and that ultimately just ends up falling flat to begin with. And then the third thing is just, do we need to reimagine some of the roster spots? I do think if they want to be a Cat at center team, they need to be so blistering offensively that they could just run teams off the floor in the way that the Pacers did to them. And for that, I look at guys like Bridges and OG and I'm like, we're spending a lot of money in heart on methodical defensive first players. Do we need actually an offensive first player? Because I'm like often looking around wise where it's like when Brunson isn't in there or Cat isn't in there and sometimes when they're both not in there, like, where's the offense coming from?

[Woz]

I think those guys are big enough threats offensively that you should be able to leverage how dangerous Brunson and Cat are into something that can be consistently good without it being like, here's the ball. Beat a guy one on one. Like, there just needs to be more stuff being done to do it that way. Like, honestly, the team that comes to my mind is the CJ and Dame Portland team, where it's like, Dame just wasn't out there just being some all right, 50 pick and rolls a night offensive play. He wasn't. He was getting off of the rock. They had a functional offensive system and they leveraged his incredible talents to Let other people cook. Let CJ Cook. Like their offense was always close to the top of the freaking league. Without Dame behaving the way that Brunson does on offense. Like you can have a more evenly dispersed offense while just leveraging like Brunson's obvious strengths. Like this guy has incredible range. When he gets downhill, he draws fouls like, like cat can shoot from everywhere. Like you should be able to turn this into a functional, real NBA big boy offense, man. I don't, I don't like. I think it would be nice, yeah. To have more secondary, actual secondary ball handlers and not like part time like og like he shouldn't really be handling the Rockets.

[Rob Mahoney]

His is tough, you know, can a little bit.

[Woz]

Mikhail is decent when he's doing it.

[Rob Mahoney]

And Josh Hart too, I think can be a trigger man for some offense. It's, I think what's striking about the Knicks in terms of like their set offense, right when they're like calling plays to set up stuff. A lot of those sequences almost like start and end with get Jalen Brunson the ball in this position. Like it's like, it's like a half designed play where they have the setup to get Jalen Brunson on the move on a cut across the lane, on a stagger across the top. Like get him the ball with this momentum, dot, dot, dot. Jalen Brunson make a play. And there isn't a lot that like you don't see the multi layered action that's coming out of that and created offense doesn't need to be fully scripted. Look at the Indiana Pacers. They run a lot of great stuff off of principle, off of scheme, off of idea, and not just off of like here you go here and you here go here. Like it. It needs to be more organic than that. But it's telling that when the Knicks do try to dial stuff up, it's a little half baked, a lot of.

[Justin Barrier]

Razzle dazzle to ultimately get to where you know it's going to go. Reminds me of like some Kobe teams where it's like pass, pass, pass. And then Kobe just like pounds the air out of the ball for 20 fucking seconds because. Because that's what he's always going to do. So I don't know, I mean, if we're just going to like talk these out, if we're thinking the more extreme path, which would be to perhaps change one of these core five players, they do. If we want to kind of pivot now to our Knicks war room and.

[Woz]

Like really, I Traded. I traded Jalen Brunson for Giannis on. On Zach Lowe's podcast.

[Rob Mahoney]

How did you manage days ago? What were the terms of that deal? I don't.

[Woz]

I don't remember. It's just like, let's do it, though.

[Justin Barrier]

So is Kat the new point guard in that situation?

[Woz]

No, Giannis is okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Point Giannis.

[Justin Barrier]

I see Mitchell Robinson at the two.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Deuce at power forward. Don't worry about it.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, I think Bridges is kind of the swing piece here, because he does. He is going into the final year of his contract, curiously, has not signed an extension. Brunson did go through the whole process. What was it last offseason? Signing the big old extension in order to afford them the opportunity to add guys like Bridges and og. It's a little. I don't know what's going to happen here, because on the one hand, you could say, like, where do they get that talent again? On the other hand, you might be able to swap him for multiple players, as we've said, with other teams, or you could just get a different type of player. Because I think a lot of teams. Rob would want a guy like Bridges. He fills a lot of roles for a lot of different teams.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, his market would be pretty robust, which always makes me double back to the like, are we sure we want to trade him in the first place?

[Justin Barrier]

He's.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's a. Can be a limited player, can be flawed in certain respects. I don't think there's any question that he's had moments in this postseason where you see the sum of his contributions and you feel a little underwhelmed by what he's like, whether it's the level of aggressiveness. We talk all the time about him not getting to the basket and actually trying to finish. I think you saw some reasons for that in this series. He took a couple of layups that got swatted to all hell by Miles Turner. Like, he's just not an assertive and, like, consistent finisher inside, even when he tries to do it. But more than that, it just took him too long in this series to play up and into Tyrese Haliburton, for one. Like, the fact that that was a game 5 development is a damning bit of faint price. How you reconcile all that is up to you. For me, I still think you ride out the McHale Bridges experience. I have a hard time. Like, you know, we talked about some of the back and forth and how this is a team that's caught between whether it should lean into its offense, lean into its defense. Do you want to paper over the limitations of Kat and Brunson? Do you want to accentuate their strengths? I think Mikhail kind of allows you to do some of both in a way that is ultimately healthy. And I would try to augment this roster by adding one or two more players on the back end of it. Like, I'm trying to improve or at least make more consistent, hypothetically, the Delon Wright minutes or hypothetically, you know, whoever's behind him in the rotation, campaign minutes. Well, the reason, there's a reason those don't exist anymore. But all that is contingent on Tibbs playing those guys and whether you think that's realistic or not. Here's the question as an executive, if you know Tom Thibodeau is your coach, do you even try to improve your ninth man, or does it only matter that you improve the McHale Bridges spot and make it 5% better or 10% better? Is that, should that be your primary concern? If this is your coach?

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, that's a great point. Like, because if you do trade one for two, like, is he going to play the two? If anything, you're going to just end up with the 1. Just the worst version of that. So, I don't know, wise. Do you have any ideas here beyond trading for Giannis?

[Woz]

Like, I just have a hard time believing they're going to do anything dramatic in the off season. After the first conference finals in 25 years, it just seems highly unlikely that anything besides extending Bridges, bringing Mitchell Robinson back, running this thing back, like, like these guys barely know each other in terms of the Cat and Brunson stuff. Like, they just had a cup of coffee with each other and ended up in the conference finals. You know, there's so much to build on from here, you know, I know, like, when it was bad, especially on defense, it's like, oh, is this something you want to try long term? Like, I think you have to, at least you have to be thinking, we're going to do this again. We're going to build on what we did this year. We beat Boston, you know, which was a real dragon for the Knicks. And, you know, at times, like all most of these games were hyper competitive with Indy, you know, they. They have to feel like they're right there on the level of Indiana. I just don't think they're going to be dramatic about it. And then, you know, forget about, like, the family ties and the la familiar, you know, mobbed up element of the Knicks where it's like, oh, if you hear a CAA guy is basically blood in, blood out.

[Justin Barrier]

So, you know, even did to Dante. I mean, we've seen the commercial now 1000 fucking times. We know what could happen.

[Woz]

Yeah, I think Dante is just, just a way lower down on the totem pole than Brunson, for obvious reasons. So, yeah, I just. It's hard for me to see them doing it. And then again, like, even with Bridges, they gave up all this stuff for him. The idea that they're going to just be like, ah, you know, let's try to get something different.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Woz]

And not just extend the guy just seems highly unlikely.

[Rob Mahoney]

Even if they did believe that that was the team's best path forward, you just don't see front offices admit that kind of error that quickly, that, oh, maybe we overpaid for Mikhail Bridges, maybe we should have traded for somebody else. You just don't see that very often. But I just, I want to put. Make this like, very clear. The Knicks, short of Giannis, should not trade Karl Anthony Towns. Like, I think he's a. I think.

[Woz]

He'S a really good point at trading Towns.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think he's a really good Knick who had an amazing run and yes, create some problems for this team structurally that they then have to solve, but, like, they were not getting his contributions from anywhere else. Many teams in the league do not get his level of contribution from anyone else. He's an all NBA level player.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, it's just the same old thing with Towns where you're like, you are a certain team. When you decide to get into Carl Anthony Town's business to the next credit. Seems like they willingly accepted the challenge and brought it out the best in him this year. And so I tend to agree with you guys. I think with any east team, you ultimately end up in the same place. You look at the landscape and you're like, I'm fine. We pushed the team that's going to the east finals practically every game. Maybe we should have won one or two of those games. If one or two bounces go a different way, like, we might just make the finals next year if we just stand back.

[Rob Mahoney]

So you're saying they're fine in the East.

[Justin Barrier]

They're in. They are fine.

[Woz]

They're fine in the East.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's a real thing, though, like with the Celtics being in the condition that they're in and Jason Tatum out for the foreseeable future. If you are as close as the New York Knicks, do not take a step back, like, push forward in whatever meaningful and small ways you can. I think this is a core worth keeping together. Radical statement to say about a team that almost just made the NBA Finals. A couple of wins. And as you said, Justin, a couple bounces away from making this a really competitive series.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, the problem is, like, the Knicks just aren't the conservative types typically. Like, this is the time where they get the itchy trigger finger and they want to do something. And last offseason was the prime example of that, where they already had Bridges and they're like, let's fucking go crawl towns a day before training camp.

[Woz]

So that's the thing, though. But before last off season, they were really patient and methodical, right? And then last year's just like, OG Anunovi. All right, Mikhail Bridges. All right, Carl Talons just. It just happened, like trade deadline, off season, boom, Right before or right when training camp is starting or whenever. It was just crazy that they did that. But, like, that hasn't been their way.

[Justin Barrier]

I know I bring up Kevin Durant once a week, twice a week for every team that has been ejected from. From the playoffs at this point. But, like, wouldn't the Suns want a player like Bridges back? Like the new version of Bridges in the fold? Not only does he have the muscle memory to play next to Booker, but you can only be so bad considering their pick situation. Right. Durant, at the very least, might round out an offensive first team in New York in that sort of way. And if you're looking at Durant and his mindset, like, you want to go somewhere that's going to be competitive now, but doesn't. Isn't overly reliant on you in the way that, like, let's say the Houston Rockets are. And so, like, could he ease into his golden years being on the other New York team? Unfinished business. He's back in the boroughs. Let's go.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't like it either.

[Woz]

I got like, obviously KD is way better than Mikhail Bridges. Let's get that out the way. He's a much better player than Mikhail Bridges is.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're in agreement.

[Woz]

He would theoretically be a great fit for what they're trying to do. Can play the three, can play the four, whatever. Even play the five sometimes whatever. Temperamentally, you. That's what you want to bring into your locker room.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wow.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, maybe I brought up the. Monty Burns has so many personal physical ailments that he can't push all of them through the. The door. Do you guys know this Simpsons?

[Rob Mahoney]

No idea.

[Justin Barrier]

The glaze looks on the.

[Rob Mahoney]

No idea.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay, I'm sure, like, 10 people will get it out there, but send us a clip. Do they all cancel each other out, is what I'm saying? Does Towns is towness? Brunson's like, kind of just quiet, calm? Durant's own, like, moodiness. Do they all kind of cancel each other out? And if anything, there's balance there just because the encore product would just be good enough.

[Rob Mahoney]

Here's the thing, I think, as far as Kevin Durant's quirks as a personality, and we've talked about them many, many times, Woz has talked extensively about the idea of Kevin Durant as a leader in particular. Jalen Brunson is a great leader of a team, and so that vacuum is sort of already filled by virtue of having him do that. Yep. That said, I honestly think having KD on the team makes Towns less important in a way that then makes Towns weaknesses more apparent and more concerning. Right. Because, like, for one, cat is great if you want to drive. Kevin Durant doesn't want to drive.

[Woz]

He doesn't.

[Rob Mahoney]

He wants to stop at 12 to 18ft and pull up and hit.

[Woz]

And he's so good at the corner anymore. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Doesn't really turn the corner like that anymore. And so the space that Kat provides might make it a little easier for KD to maneuver in the mid post, but ultimately, like, are we gonna make Katie a fan? It would be very tipsy to start Josh Hart over Kevin Durant. I'll put it that way.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. And also, if we do go with Mitchell Robinson, if you bring him back in this wild fantasy, like, I guess Katie is playing the 2A LA. Like the PJ Carissimo days, I don't really know how it would work either, but that is the level of offensive player that would get me to entertain a Bridges trade. Anything short of someone that just makes us lights out offensively, that we could go toe to toe with the best teams like that. Yes. But otherwise, I'm holding on to Bridges. I'm rolling it back. I'm getting another adult into the back end of my roster.

[Rob Mahoney]

Something kind of twisted about the Knicks situation is, you know, it maybe it took him a little long to fully get there with someone like Delon Wright in particular in terms of playing him actual rotation minutes. But the Knicks did, and they tried to play Landrew shame kind of along the way. And then here in the. In the playoffs as well, and here in the conference finals in particular when he's been healthy, those guys are both free agents who could just leave, and they are not unimportant Knicks reserves. At this point. And so in addition to trying to make this roster better, those guys who are now favorites in New York, Landry Shamon in particular is apparently just like an icon of Nick's lore. Might not be a Nick anymore. I don't, I don't know what's going to happen. But they also, they played their way into opportunities whether it's New York or elsewhere.

[Woz]

So in the future, like Landry Shamon is going to be sitting in like the Marcus Camby seat court side, like, is that what we're saying?

[Rob Mahoney]

Are you telling me Tim Thomas is a dramatically more important Nick than a that went to the Eastern Conference finals?

[Justin Barrier]

It's true. God, I will say they did do a good job of rounding out their roster pre flurry of moves last off season by bringing a little bit more out of guys that had gotten tossed around. Dante DiVincenzo was one of those guys, obviously. Hartenstein was one of those guys. Mitchell Robinson even found a different level when playing around a more well constructed roster. And so they have done well with veterans and making them into credible rotation players. Maybe that's what they do. Precious. Achua is an unrestricted free agent. Maybe you trade him at the draft before the calendar year rolls over. You get another guy like that into the mix and then all of your sudden you're cooking. But something I think has to change. And so if it's not the roster, maybe a coaching change would be, I don't know, the obvious candidate though. That's the other problem.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I, we have a. We gripe a lot about Tibs. I just don't see like the easy path to a dramatic reinvention.

[Woz]

He's not. They need, like I said, they need an offensive coordinator of some kind of somebody with that Tibbs respects, who knows offense.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, it sounded like you were nominating Terry Stots, you know, punch him from the warriors staff, apparently.

[Woz]

Bring him in, man, like. Cause again, it's just a matter of. Carl Towns played on a different team before New York. Like, they ran stuff specific to his skill set and needs. Like you're paying the guy $55 million a year. Treat him that way. Put the responsibility on the guy, man, and help him.

[Rob Mahoney]

I could be mistaken, but I think it was like five minutes of this game passed before Karl Towns had a single offensive touch. Like, did not touch the ball.

[Woz]

7:18 to go in the game before Carl Towns touched the rock, bro.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's timestamp. WNY Lambre checking in Sane.

[Justin Barrier]

You're just logging every play, bro.

[Woz]

I, I remember because he was like, foul line extended when he caught it. I'm like, yo, this the first time this dude touched the ball?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Woz]

New York Knicks basketball, bro.

[Justin Barrier]

Why don't we flip ahead to the finals now? So we're going to do a full blown finals preview podcast next week, in the middle of next week. But I want to get your guys early thoughts. I think my first early thought when the, the slobber knocker of a series between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Indiana Pacers is who gets to claim the Heartland? Who gets to be the team from middle America? That's the upstart scrap.

[Woz]

Oh, it's got to be Indy because of the basketball history, the Hoosiers movie, all of that. Lord, they, they, they got it. The fact that most of the people in the state think high school and college basketball is better than NBA. Like, they gotta, they gotta take that Heartland trophy for sure. For sure. But hey, man, the prairie ain't far behind y' all. Come on now.

[Justin Barrier]

I guess stealing a team from another market doesn't necessarily endear you to the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, come on.

[Justin Barrier]

The fans at home.

[Rob Mahoney]

Come on.

[Woz]

That's specific Northwest solidarity right there. That's right.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's true. I forgot about that.

[Justin Barrier]

What, what jumps out to you, Rob?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think I, I am so fascinated by how these two teams end up playing in chaos. Like, we talk, we just talked about the random, randomness of Indiana's offense. They're so good at that, about playing off of ideas, off of concepts, off of screens in ways that are not necessarily scripted. Oklahoma City is, I would say, particularly good at disrupting the stuff that they anticipate. Right. Like, they know where Nicola Jokic wants to get the ball. They know where Julius Randle wants to set up and turn his shoulder. And they can jump those things if you take away some of the predictable stuff and you make them play a very dynamic, very unpredictable game with all these, like, random, like, drive by ghost screens with all the side to side action. Does it negate any of the best defense in the NBA this season? Does it negate any of all of that disruptive turnover hunting? My guess is no, because Oklahoma City is good at creating and thriving in that sort of chaos too. But that's the sort of tension point. Like, this was the first game in the conference finals that Tyrese Halliburton had four turnovers, mostly kept his turnovers way, way down. Overall, the team has kept their turnovers way, way, way down. The Thunder are going to press that pretty hard and are going to see exactly what Indiana's precision is made of.

[Woz]

For me, it's the foul fest. Is Nemar going to be allowed to guard SGA the way he was doing Jalen Brunson today?

[Rob Mahoney]

Good question.

[Woz]

Is niece Smith gonna be able to put it, get handsy with J Dub the way that he's been doing all series with the Knicks and you know, like, are. If not, are they gonna do this, give Lou Dort and Caruso the same treatment on the other end? That's. That's something I'm definitely watching out for. And I think Indy's ball movement is going to have to be key here because Oklahoma City seems to be the only team I've seen in a minute that gets to like, have their cake and eat it too. On defense, where it's like they seem to stick their foot in the paint, but yet always make it back out to shooters and you know, they jump in passing lanes. One thing I didn't see one time in the Denver series, ain't seen one time in Minnesota. Can somebody take these dudes back door? Like, how is the back door never freaking open against these kids? So I think if anybody's gonna be able to exploit these guys with the pass and the over aggressiveness, you know, I actually think about the Miami Heat and the Heatles and the crazy defense that they used to play, which was like ultra aggressive flying around, and how the spurs just manipulated that defense and turned that athletic strength and aggressiveness into ultimately a weakness that they exploited with that beautiful game spurs stuff. I wonder if Indy can pull off the same kind of trick with their ball movement against okc. But yeah, those are the foul situation. Cause my God, like Nemhard, Niecemith, Dort and Caruso boy, simple assault, bro. Like what these guys be doing. So that's the stuff that I'll be looking out for.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, I think the pace is also something that is going to have to be tracked here because on the one hand, the Thunder also play at a high pace. They want to rip and run, and I believe they ended up with a higher pace both in the postseason and in the regular season than the Pacers did. And so they're out there running wind sprints in the summer up the sand dunes, probably right alongside Pascal Siakam. The other thing though is that like the Pacers pace is just so unique at this point. Their ability to get down court after, makes, after misses, practically everything. It's just like it, I think you can't stop it to a certain point. It's not only that the Knicks were A little bit sluggish, a little less deep than them. It just seems like an advantage that's going to carry. And so can the Thunder zone pace counterbalance that or at a certain point is this just going to ultimately be kind of a trump card? Because that I do think is going to have to happen in order for them to knock off the Thunder, who are playing at a different level. The defense has been awesome their entire postseason, but now, like optimized Chet J Dub Shea is just like a whole other beast.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's going to be really tough, I think, for the Pacers to play every bit of the way that they want to play. But yeah, you're right, Justin. Like that full court game. In terms of Indiana's outlets, you can, I can imagine in my mind's eye Alex Caruso and Lou Dort selling out like free safeties for those passes. Right? Like they managed to get back and just like get a hand on one of those in a way that then triggers a fast break going the other way. But if that passes on the money, if it's a little higher or a little tighter, then all of a sudden you're circumventing all this defensive trouble that we anticipate that the Thunder would give teams. But yeah, like the, the collective ability of Tyrese's playmaking, Pascal Siakam's versatility and Rick Carlisle's preparation, that's a pretty good trio if you're going to try to take a crack at the best defense we've seen in recent memory.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, we talked all about the Pacers depth. Like, let's just wait till we see the Thunders depth when all of a sudden, like in Game four, Brandon Carlson's out there for two minutes, you're like, what? Why is this guy playing? Like, yeah, we just, we just liked his hustle and his middle part. We just thought he was going to be effective in this one. So we'll see. All right, why don't we wrap it there? Because we're going to come back on Wednesday to do a full blown variable style preview of the NBA Finals. Got the Diddy lined up, got variations of the Diddy lined up. So stay tuned for that. So we'll do that on Wednesday and then Thursday, something special. We're going to be live in Los Angeles in the studio at Spotify to do a live reaction show off of Game 1 of the NBA Finals. So stay tuned for that. You can email Rob for details if you want. So Wednesday, Thursday, next week, and then we'll go from there. But that's it for tonight. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Talk to you next time.