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- [00:01]
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- [01:05]
Logan Murdoch
What's Poppin Real Ones Logan Murdoch here, Howard Beck and Roger Bell in a minute. The Knicks are going to the NBA Finals. I know you've heard that. I can smell the chopped cheese from 3,000 miles away. It's popping in New York. I already know. It's 75 degrees. It's spring. It's a vibe. And it's going to be a vibe for the next week and a half in New York. So we just try to summon that energy on this real one's pod of the excitement that's going on in New York with the NBA Finals there. Let me talk about the disappointment in Cleveland. Do you even run the Cavs team back as currently constructed? I don't know. I really don't know. I think they've reached the ceiling. But we'll get into all of that. Then we get a quick update on the San Antonio Oklahoma City series. Then we have a really fun mailbag, man. Really, really fun episode. Shout out to my New Yorkers. Shout out to Big Baller Ben. Shout out to Spike. Shout out to all the homies. Yeah man. Real ones up next.
- [02:03]
Howard Beck
Holla the Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. FanDuel is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout, or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus select states and 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.
- [02:48]
Logan Murdoch
What's poppin? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Howard Beck there. Raja Bell there. It's lit. We ready to go. Orange and blue skies. They're not playing around. Knicks last night in game four had a feel like a bit of a credo, Raja. Bit of a. Bit of a. A motto. And it was that frail, you know, they came in, they put the body in the trunk in. In Cleveland, you know, and, you know, they got. They had 100 rounds, 100 clips, you know, and they showed where they were from. And
- [03:28]
Roger Bell
you're just gonna keep doing it. Okay. Yeah.
- [03:30]
Logan Murdoch
All right. You know, it was that real. That to make you feel, you know, man, let me just do the shout outs right now, man. Shout out to bk. Shout out to all my dudes in the bx. Shout out Steph, you know, you know, shout out Keith. Shout out to everybody in the ringer chat, in the ringer chat and the ringer mast head that are Knicks fans. This is your time to shine. Shout out to you. Shout out to all my homies in the bk. Shout out to Yonkers. Shout out to what other man? Shout out to all my homies down there on 125th in Linux. You know, getting it popping. Shout out to Raj's folks that's over there in New York. You feel me? Shout out to everybody that's, you know, that got it popping. You know how we do, you know how we feel. Shout out to World Trade and the offices over there. Everybody going to work, everybody making everybody. You know what I mean? Hey, shout out to all.
- [04:17]
Roger Bell
You're just naming random fucking off the dome parts of New York that, you know, that's what that was, that.
- [04:23]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. But the last part was, you know, the people in Spotify offices and World Trade Center.
- [04:28]
Roger Bell
That whole day, I didn't know that's where the Spotify offices were. Okay, I understood.
- [04:31]
Logan Murdoch
You know what I mean? You need to tap in. You know what I mean? Okay. We also have to do a podcast, so let's tap in with the mayor, the real mayor of Brooklyn, Howard Beck. What's it like out there in New York right now? What's going on? How's life? What's up, man?
- [04:44]
Howard Beck
I mean, it's like 75 and sunny. It finally feels like spring. It's great.
- [04:51]
Roger Bell
We Would have gotten a lot of trouble years ago for that man. But can we just remind. Can we remind. We would have gotten a lot of trouble for that, Howard. Remember those days? Do you remember those days, Logan, where if when we talked weather. Because I like to talk weather, too.
- [05:07]
Logan Murdoch
We would be.
- [05:09]
Roger Bell
Goldie, we get a.
- [05:10]
Logan Murdoch
We would get an email, a cease and desist.
- [05:16]
Howard Beck
I mean, I could.
- [05:18]
Roger Bell
My 75 in New York and sunny is, like, the best.
- [05:24]
Howard Beck
It's glorious. It's funny because as I was saying to producer Cliff Offline before we started, like, people always, oh, what's it like in New York right now? What's it. It's the same as every other day. I'm sorry.
- [05:38]
Logan Murdoch
Come on.
- [05:40]
Howard Beck
It's quiet. Like, I. Like, you're going to hear some honking, some sirens. It's the same as every other day. Like, I don't live in a sports bar, people.
- [05:48]
Roger Bell
I.
- [05:49]
Howard Beck
Like. I. And I don't fucking live in Midtown, where God only knows what was happening last night. I saw a few clips. Yeah, the place is going to go bonkers. Has gone bonkers. Will continue to go bonkers. And as the finals start to unfold next week, and especially the games in New York, it will be crazy. But for most of the neighborhoods and the boroughs, like, it's. It's just another day. I'm sorry. Like, the Knicks fans are on fire and have a right to be and should be, and the next couple weeks are going to be crazy. But, yeah, it's 75 and sunny. It's nice.
- [06:22]
Roger Bell
Let me. Let me just say this, Ben. Been holding on to my golden ticket and my invite. Oh.
- [06:29]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, you did? Yes.
- [06:31]
Roger Bell
Well played, Raj.
- [06:32]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [06:33]
Roger Bell
Good.
- [06:33]
Logan Murdoch
Good job, Roger.
- [06:35]
Roger Bell
Are you.
- [06:35]
Logan Murdoch
Are you going to be. Are you saying you're going to be. Might be courtside Game three. Is that what you're saying? You're gonna pull up on game three?
- [06:41]
Roger Bell
Remains to be seen. Now, you know I ain't going to that, but, man, what a time to be there. If there was a time that I would go, like, yeah, dog. Like, there's. I'd like to see. You know, it's a venue thing for me, right? It's a spectacle. It's like, what? What? The energy. No other time. Like the Finals period. I mean, Super Bowls are dope, but, you know, Final Fours, I've been to those. Like, those are cool, but, like, NBA Finals is. It's whole. It's a whole other thing, you know,
- [07:06]
Logan Murdoch
now we live in better now. Coogee sweater now. And that G4 could fly through any Weather now, Roger. So speaking about the different types of weather patterns that the Knicks have faced throughout this postseason, Right. You know, they start off bit of a rut, you know, and against Atlanta. What, what, why are you giving me that look? Oh, you're. Hey, I'm in a bag right now.
- [07:26]
Roger Bell
You are in a bag.
- [07:27]
Logan Murdoch
I'm in a bag right now. Let me, let me continue. Let me continue. All right, please, please lean back so I can get this thing going.
- [07:36]
Howard Beck
I mean, this is the number one meteorology podcast in the entire podcast.
- [07:41]
Logan Murdoch
So anyway, so, you know, there was, there was some, there was some turbulence in the blue, the orange and blue skies to, to start the postseason in Atlanta, and then they just wanted to run and just beat the out of everyone, and then we could talk about the game for itself and the culmination of what that was against Cleveland. And I do want to get into Cleveland in a second, but let me throw some stats your way, Roger, before I get to this question. The Knicks have now outscored their opponents by 262 points over the last 11 games. It's the best point differential across 11 games in NBA history, regardless of whether it is regular season or postseason play. That's from our guy, Tim Bontemps. We've seen big runs, and I feel like there's this, there's this assumption and, you know, we have definitely fed into this, but that the, whoever comes out of the west is winning the title. But listen, man, what I've seen out of the Knicks and what we've seen collectively out of the Knicks, it's not going to be a walk in the park. It's not going to be that. What have you seen from them over the last month, and how did that culminate in last night's game?
- [08:55]
Roger Bell
Yeah, look, I, I, I said the last time I addressed this that I thought whoever coming out of the west would win a championship, but would win the championship. But I did present a caveat to that. Do you remember what that was?
- [09:10]
Logan Murdoch
Do you. I don't know. Do you remember what that was, Howard? What was the caveat?
- [09:13]
Howard Beck
No, I don't, I don't remember things. About five minutes after this, they're set.
- [09:19]
Roger Bell
If the Knicks would get out of this series in four and the two teams out west would continue to, you know, beat each other up one, the, the rest, that was banked. And we talked about that coming into the series against the Cavs after Game one and how it would not get any easier for the Cavs after that. Just, just having played as many games as they have and as many nights that they had. And two, if they were able to get through the Cavs in the sweep, that suggests that they are continuing to be the hottest team in the NBA because they are. That they are the hottest team in the NBA right now. And so for both of those reasons, I would agree with you, Logan. A puncher's a puncher's chance against anybody coming out of the Western Conference and in some instances a problem. Maybe they're sneakily deep. They throw a lot of guys at you that can. They can also guard you. They have a combination of size one that's really physical and outworks you and block shots and is as and another that is really finesse and skill and construction floor like they. They've got, you know, Jalen Brunson, who's as good a closer in the league as anybody and when he gets hot, they've got a lot of components that could be a problem for the Western Conference. They're the hottest team in the NBA right now. They did their job. And for that reason, like I agree with you, I think they, I think the Finals should be. Whoever coming out of the west in the next couple games should be fun to watch in a way that maybe two weeks ago I wasn't exactly sure it would be.
- [10:50]
Logan Murdoch
Howard, this is going to be a ratings of bonanza. I, I'm sure the league is very excited about. No matter if the Knicks are going to play the, the, the, the spurs or the Oklahoma City Thunder. You got the Finals in the Garden. What is, what do you think? How do you feel the league is feeling about this matchup and how they're feeling, you know, just about having a. With all of the things that we have talked about with, you know, not even tanking, but also just the apron era, the parody era is supposed to, you know, take away, you know, some people were saying it's going to take away big markets. Some people were going to say that it was going to take away large, you know, payroll teams is going to give an even playing field. How do you feel about what this says and the Knicks coming in says about where they are as a league right now.
- [11:42]
Howard Beck
I don't think that the Knicks rise necessarily is any indication of where the league is other than I think what's most striking about the Knicks. Let me just start this over. What's most striking about the Knicks is that it doesn't matter what era this is. They're not operating as a big market team, meaning they didn't just go out like The Knicks used to do during all the years of this century, when the Knicks were failing and flailing, frankly, when they were just trying to buy their way to prosperity. That's not what this was. They got Jalen Brunson at a time when nobody else wanted to spend 100 million on Jalen Brunson. And that was below max. Well below max.
- [12:18]
Logan Murdoch
And yet still criticism about $100 million below max.
- [12:23]
Howard Beck
Well, that was the. I think you're taking the extension. But the first, when they first stole him from Dallas, got him in free agency, he had a contract that was like four years, 100 million or something. And people thought it was an overpay. He's now one of the best players in the NBA. He wasn't the time that they got him, they did not go out and just poach other team stars. They were selective, they were methodical and they were smart. They had Julius Randall and they flipped him in divincenzo for Carl Anthony Towns, who up until, you know, the last couple of years, people and frankly up until the last few weeks, people still weren't sure what to make of Carl Anthony Towns. Josh Hart been with three other teams at least before the Knicks got him. OG Ananubi was definitely a coveted player. The Knicks got him when the Raptors were willing to move him and the Knicks got him. You know, for a couple of decent players, they've just made smart moves. And even the most criticized of all those probably was the Mikhail Bridges move, which cost them all of their future draft capital. And as recently as a few weeks ago, when Mikhail Bridges was, was having a tough time against the Hawks, Knicks fans wanted to bench him. At least some Knicks fans. And we're still ruining that trade because of all the draft capital that got sent out. Point being, the Knicks did not build some like juggernaut based on superstars and super teams and big market with all of its, its riches. They built kind of like a small market team or a mid market team. And they built something that it, it's not particularly flashy all the time. There's not a ton of like marquee value here. You start looking at, I made this point on Zach's pod today as well. Look at the teams that had the kind of runs that the Knicks are in the midst of right now. The teams that only lost once or twice or three times on the way to a championship. And you're talking like one of the warriors teams that had KD and Steph and Clay and Draymond or Bulls teams with Jordan and Pippen Shaq and Kobe. This Knicks team doesn't have that kind of star power even. They're doing this with just like, synergy, just collective awesome chemistry, selflessness, tough as hell on defense, never let up, incredibly efficient. That's what's striking to me. They, they built this in a way that 29 other teams, I mean, obviously a few of them don't need to, but any team could build this. It's not even about market size. It's not about aprons. It's not about salary cap. Although eventually they will have those challenges, as every team does. But the Thunder are having that challenge, too. And the Cavaliers, who the Knicks just smoked, I think, were the only second apron team this season. And despite everything they spent as a smaller market, it didn't get them very far or it got them well short of the Finals. Anyway. What the Knicks have put together is, is, is really impressive. Can't wait to see how this Western Conference finals ends and who they end up going up against. We can, we'll get to that. But, and yeah, sure, I'm sure the NBA is happy that the biggest market on the continent is going to be fueling ratings, but I mean, who fucking cares about ratings? It's like, the Knicks are a really good, really fun team. That's what matters. I don't, I don't care about, like, you know, whether this is good for the league. Like, great finals are good for the league. Last year's finals were awesome, and it was two of the smallest markets.
- [15:46]
Logan Murdoch
Can you talk about the flow state that the Knicks are in offensively right now? Roger, what are you seeing and how can that translate into the next round?
- [15:55]
Roger Bell
I mean, I don't know what you could take away from last night's game. I mean, they're just, you know, Howard just made the point. They're playing with synergy. They've got a, they've got a really good, you know, collective kind of energy. Obviously the chemistry is right. And I was, I don't probably not answering your question, but like, as I was thinking, there were some shout outs that I wanted to give, like, I want, like Jay Wright, you know, a lot of, A lot of the DNA of at least three of their major, the major cogs in their wheel, you know, played for championships under Jay Wright. So like, there's a, There's a DNA that's shared there from way back. They, they know how to weather storms. They know how to just play through things in that way. I think you got to give him a lot of credit for that. I do think Tibbs, and I'm not answering your question right now. That's always fascinating to me when someone gets a team, like, right there and they. And they make that move and the next guy gets him over the hump. Kudos to Mike Brown. Like, I know that had to be super special, and it is for him, especially beating the Cavs, who, like, let him in Cleveland. Let him in Cleveland. Like, that had to be super dope and. And congrats, Mike. But I think Tibbs has to. You have to give him some credit for. For what he was able to do with that team and positioning them so that Mike could get them over the hump. You know, I don't. Offensively, they're just. Teams hit a stride sometimes and, you know, we'll have these conversations through the course of a season. And I think people have heard me say before, like, as counterintuitive as it might sound, I wonder if they're playing too good too early, and. And I don't know that everybody can fully understand what I'm trying to say in that it's that you hit spurts in time through the course of a season, probably any season, baseball, any team sport, where you're just in sync and firing on all cylinders, everything is clicking. It's easy, right? Like, you're doing the same things that you're trying to create when it's not easy, but it's just easier to do it, and it's hard to stay in that sweet spot. That's why, like, a lot of times people will say, you know, it's the team that's kind of, you know, it's got the momentum right now. It's the team that's clicking, but that's a real thing. And the Knicks have that in spades right now. Like, they're. They're getting production from a lot of people. They've unlocked some things with Carl Anthony Towns with the ball. I loved that they were flying up the court last night for a team that, you know, historically isn't a. A tempo team. I mean, they were. They look like they were shot out of a cannon last night every time a shot went up. Like, now some of that was just horseshit. You know, floor balance on, on or court balance on. On. On Cleveland.
- [18:29]
Logan Murdoch
But, yeah, part of it was the CA Quitting.
- [18:32]
Roger Bell
Yeah, but this was even, you know, even early when they were, before they quit. You know, New York was like, we're out, we're gone. And I just think, you know, teams that play like that and can speed up the way they play and not skip a beat of how efficient they are, that speaks to them being in that flow state. Right. How they got there, I don't, I don't fucking know. I'm not there every day, but like they're there.
- [18:53]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, Howard brought up a great point. Just about the other teams, the types of teams that have gone on these types of runs, right? You actually played on against one of the teams that went on the types of run in the 01 finals against the, the Lakers. And you guys were coming off of a seven game series, I believe the Sixers. And you guys had to play.
- [19:16]
Roger Bell
We had played five, seven and seven.
- [19:20]
Logan Murdoch
That was back when it was a five game series right in the first round, right.
- [19:23]
Roger Bell
For. I think Indiana was five, but then seven and seven with Toronto and Milwaukee. So we.
- [19:31]
Logan Murdoch
And those were some bruising series. And so you guys are tired of them.
- [19:34]
Howard Beck
And the Knicks, excuse me, the Lakers were off for like 11 days because they had gone sweep, sweep, sweep. And their loss in that run was to you guys in Game 1. But the Knicks, the, the why I keep saying this, The Lakers have been off for 11 days. By the way, Shaq last night said we were off for 10 days. We did it. We had a parade at Disney, Disneyland, whatever. Like it was 11 days. I remember this specifically and I do not remember any parades. I think Shaq might be making that up. He does have.
- [19:58]
Logan Murdoch
Shaq be lying. Shaq be lying. Is that something Shaq will be lying telling tall tales? No, but what I'm asking though is you. You've seen both sides of this. Raja, can you talk about that? I don't know how, I don't know how much you can get into that game because it was so long ago. But like just the preparation, you guys got to go from cool across the country to go play la and you guys win that game basically off of adrenaline, it felt like. So, like, can you just bring both sides of what this is going to be? Because the. Whoever comes out of the west is going to be heavily favored, which the Lakers were with rest. So it's a little bit of reverse. But how do, how do the Knicks go into a series like this where they have so much rest and how do they stay sharp against a team that is going to be favored against them no matter if it's the spurs or the Thunder?
- [20:44]
Roger Bell
Let's be, Let me be clear. I don't really have great memory of like what that was like for us in my particularly small world within that, that, that bigger universe. I was Just happy to be there and like holding on for dear life. Things were happening so fast that I don't even think I digested it until the summer. So I don't really remember that. What I would say about the mix is I think they're in a really sweet spot in terms of, you know, we just addressed how well they're playing together and then them being the hottest team in the NBA. But you're also then going to be the underdog, which organically keeps you sharp. Right? Like there's already a chip on your shoulder in that way. Where I would fear a team that was sitting around waiting becoming complacent would be if they're the overwhelming favorite. And it's a foregone conclusion that whoever comes out of that series in the west is going to be, you know, you're served up to you on a platter. I think the Knicks have like just baked in, you know, intent over whatever course of time they have to prepare. Obviously you're going to bank rest, right? Like OG Anunoby is a huge part of what they do. He's a huge piece and you know, he looked great. But, but, but anytime you can get a hammy, like a recently injured hammy, more rest, like you want to bank that. But I don't think intent is going to be a problem for them. Could they come out and be slightly rusty early in the game? Yeah, I mean I, of course, I think you saw it against Cleveland in the first game of this series. But as soon as you knock that off, you know, if that series in out west goes, goes deep, like you are going to be playing with some, some real house money that you can, that you can kind of loosely throw around and that becomes dangerous for one of those teams.
- [22:31]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, we're gonna. So good, so good, so good. Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom Rack stores now and up to 60% off. Stock up and save on the brands you love like Vince, Sam, edelman frame and free people. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you wreck. Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer all day play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit redbull.com. bright Summer ahead to learn more. See you this summer. Have a lot of time to talk about the Knicks. Let's talk about the abomination on the shores of Lake Erie. The. The Cleveland Cavaliers,
- [23:37]
Cliff
bro.
- [23:37]
Roger Bell
They went.
- [23:38]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, they quit two straight games.
- [23:41]
Roger Bell
Murdered. They're getting murdered. Yeah, bro, They're. Get those. Listen, man, I. What I tell y' all when that start? What'd I say? I'm not like, I don't like to be that dude, but what I tell y' all about that? That they have nothing left in the tank. It's. It's a wrap. Like, you could come out there and for 10 minutes, you're gonna be like, we're here to fucking play. We're gonna summon everything we have in us, and there's gonna come a point where that thing goes to E. And it's a rap. It's just a rap. And I'm not gonna dispute, because it was ugly. They got swept. They said a lot of stupid at the mic, players and coaches alike, but they did make the Eastern Conference finals. And I. I just want to do this any given time. I was in the NBA on any team. If you told me at the start of a season we were going to make said conference finals, we're all taking it, like, except for a team or two, right? But, like, most teams are like, yeah, I'll sign up for that. So I just want to respect that in that way If. If you guys would allow me to. Right. Like, it didn't. It didn't end well, and it didn't look good, and I'm not defending them. But Western. I mean, Eastern Conference finals is still
- [24:42]
Logan Murdoch
something, to be fair. To be fair, the Cavs got further or farther, you know. You know, I don't know which one to say the further. Farther. Howard, you're. Are you the editor? How do you do it? Is it further or farther? They got farther with James Harden as. Further, further, farther. I get in my household, I get beat across the head. I don't even know. It's. They. They got, you know, anyways, they advance further than they would.
- [25:15]
Howard Beck
They got to a later round than they got for.
- [25:19]
Logan Murdoch
They got. They got to a later round with James Harden and company than they did with Darius Garland, who was often injured in these moments. So, you know, that's. That. That is something, you know, to. To. To lay your head on. But there's. Feels like there's a disconnect there, Howard, because on one hand, because of how far they've gotten, you could deem,
- [25:39]
Howard Beck
you
- [25:39]
Logan Murdoch
know, from what you saw those last two games of this series, and in game one of this series, do you bring this team back as whole, right? I mean, James Harden is a 42 million dollar player option. Do you tell him to. Do you try to trade him? I don't know what the market is going to be. Do you give him an extension after what you just saw over? Because they kind of are who they are and they seem like they have hit a ceiling. Like, what, what is this roster expected to do? And what do you do with this roster? Do you run it back? I. I just, I don't have any answers. Because on one hand you did make the conference finals, but you looked ugly in that conference finals. And it doesn't look like there's more of a ceiling than what this team has put out so far.
- [26:20]
Howard Beck
This is only a rhetorical question because I, and I very much respect where Raja was coming from as a former player on the idea that, like, if you make the conference finals, that is an achievement of sorts and no, no moral victories and all that stuff, but still you advanced. It's not nothing. I just would ask this again, rhetorical question. If you make the conference finals and you don't win a single game and you get your doors blown off all four games, you blow a 22 point lead in the fourth quarter of game one. Did you really make the conference finals at all? Because it's kind of like you weren't even there. You were over four and you looked like shit. So. You don't have to answer that, Raja. I'm just saying. I'm just making a counterpoint.
- [26:53]
Logan Murdoch
Howard, they analytically won the series. Okay? So like, you need to stop with
- [26:57]
Howard Beck
that hater on that one. Just, I. Yeah, oh, we're talking about
- [27:00]
Logan Murdoch
it, we're talking about that. But go ahead, we're going to talk.
- [27:02]
Roger Bell
The answer to your rhetorical question though is. Is yes. Like, I hear what you're saying, I get it. But the answer is yes.
- [27:09]
Logan Murdoch
Okay.
- [27:09]
Roger Bell
Yeah. How about this? How about this, Howard? The bonus says you did. Fair point about that. You know what I mean? Like you, I don't know what the
- [27:21]
Howard Beck
playoff share bonus is for making the conference finals, but you're right.
- [27:24]
Logan Murdoch
That second mortgage bonus right there, baby,
- [27:27]
Roger Bell
it said you were present.
- [27:29]
Howard Beck
Yeah, Dean Wade appreciates it, I'm sure. Listen, far be it for me to imply, suggest, assert that any NBA team ever skirts salary cap rules, but I'm guessing on the James Harden question that there's already an extension in place, that when they made the trade for him There was probably a deal baked into that.
- [27:50]
Logan Murdoch
So he's probably, he's been promised stuff before. He could be in China again talking shit about Kobe Altman being disloyal. Like, like it's not official till you sign a paperwork work shout out to Daryl Morey.
- [28:00]
Howard Beck
So, yeah, anything could happen. But I, my guess is that Harden is there and you traded a guy, an All Star, 10 years younger than him to get him. So I don't think you want to just turn around and say, well, that didn't work. Let's just like send him off now. I mean, you could, you could say sunken cost fallacy. Sunk cost fallacy and say, no, it was the wrong move and we do want to move on because look what we just saw him falling apart in elimination games. And like, how many different games did he have where he had more turnovers than made field goals? Like, not a great postseason for, for James Harden. In fairness, he's going to be 37 in August. But that's also why maybe you don't trade a 27 year old for or a 26 year old for a 36 year old, and why you maybe don't want to continue investing in him. I said this early in the series. This really isn't about James Harden. I think I said it on this podcast. It's really about Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley more than anybody. James Harden is in his twilight. He's not there to get you there. He's there to help get you, you know, to the next tier, whatever that is. Well, they got to the conference finals for what it was worth. I do think they have to reassess everything. It took them several years to finally decide it was okay to break up or that it was time to break up that quartet of Garland and Mobley, or Garland Mitchell in the backcourt, Mobley and Jared Allen up front. I, I always thought there were some, some built in flaws or, or concerns with that grouping. They got to a point where it wasn't enough anymore and now they're in a quandary because James Harden is going to be 37 in August and Donovan Mitchell is due a massive extension this summer. He has indicated he wants to stay there despite continued speculation about will he want out and all this stuff. And then there's the Jared Allen, Evan Mobley fit and, you know, there's the Giannis possibility out there. And would you trade Mobley to get Giannis and all this? I don't know how that's all going to play out. And I'm not here to. I haven't really thought through what I think they should do. I do think it's hard to stand pat. I also think you don't just tear down and take steps backward. Because as awesome as the Knicks look right now, the last couple of years have suggested that the east is super volatile and things are ever changing in the way the NBA is right now. Who knows who comes out next year? Maybe it's the Knicks again, maybe it's the Pistons, you know, team on the rise that's still young and evolving and could add some guys this summer. Maybe it's a reconstituted Celtics team with Brown and Tatum for a full season, or maybe it's with Brown having been flipped for Giannis or somebody else. Who knows, Like Orlando's on the rise, Atlanta's sort of on the rise. There's a lot of good teams in the east and the Cavs are right in the thick of that and have been the last couple of years. So I don't think you just pull the plug and say, screw it, we got smoked, it's over. But you know, they do have one of the highest payrolls or maybe the highest payroll in the league. And it's, it's going to be tough to maneuver, it's going to be tough to make trades as, as a potential second apron team. So it's tough. This is why GMs will always say like in the wake of something like this, like you just, you take a deep breath, you, you let the emotions subside, maybe take a day or two away. You have a lot of fucking meetings and you try to be as sober minded as possible before you do anything too rash. I don't know what the path forward is for the Cavs, but like they are still one of the top teams in the east and, and not at the end of that run. You know, they're not old. Aside from Harden.
- [31:32]
Logan Murdoch
We'll see. Howard's trying to get us on a twitch stream talking about Jalen Brown might get traded for Giannis. I'm not trying to have that happen, bro. Relax, bro. You gotta relax.
- [31:40]
Howard Beck
Like I'm the first person to say that that might be a possibility.
- [31:43]
Logan Murdoch
Come on, you know, you know, you know, you know. Hey, what would you do, Raja? Like, what did you see out of this team? I mean, not even is this seem like a team that you would want to bring back next year?
- [31:59]
Roger Bell
If my goal was to win a championship. No, I mean, I don't, I, I, I don't think that they're ceiling as championship level Team. I actually like some of their pieces. I think they need another guy. You know, James Harden five years ago fits the bill. We're like, I mean, I'm trying to, I don't, I'm not as good as you are. Logan with like, remembering what something was five years ago, but five years ago, to me feels like he was still like, prime. Is he, we still in MVP conversations? Was it that long ago?
- [32:34]
Logan Murdoch
That would be the, the year after that would put him in Brooklyn five years ago.
- [32:37]
Roger Bell
Okay. No, so, so Jesus Christ. I'm old. But like, prime, Prime, James Harden is, is, we're cooking, you know, but like, to Howard's.
- [32:46]
Logan Murdoch
Let's go seven, eight years ago. Let's go seven, eight years ago.
- [32:49]
Roger Bell
Cool. He's not that, like, that's, you know, people would look at the pairing and expect that, but that's not, he's not that. Now we can have the argument about whether you got to pay him like that. Like, you know, those are different arguments. But what he can actually do on the floor for you isn't that. I think they need another, another dude. Personally, I'm not a gm. I don't know who's available to them. The Giannis of it all would be a no, no brainer, like, not even a question. But they need another dude because I just don't see Evan Mobley as a dude. I, I, I, you know, I, I, he's a really nice player and I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way, shape or form, but, like, I, I think you need another dude, man. You got to have another cat that, like, can carry, that can take the ball, that can create, you know, if you don't have Donovan Mitchell cooking for one reason or another, you don't have to rely on James Harden to do that type of load carrying. That's the way I see their team. I, I don't hate, you know, a lot of their pieces and I like a complete tear down is not what I'm suggesting. Now from a cat perspective, like, that's again, another conversation. But from purely a talent on the court, basketball perspective, I think they need another dude, man.
- [34:08]
Howard Beck
I, it's supposed to be Evan Mobley.
- [34:11]
Logan Murdoch
No, but he's not Evan. Mobile.
- [34:13]
Roger Bell
It's not even mobile.
- [34:14]
Howard Beck
I know, but it was supposed to be. And when they drafted him, remember, we had all these comparisons, like he's going to be Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett or a combination of the two, and he's going to be inside and out and ball handling and shooting from distance and all this, he's going to be like this multi purpose two way big and he just hasn't like he does a lot of really important things at a high level. Yeah, but he's, he's not, he's not a co star. He's a complimentary player right now. He's also like, like 25, I think, so he's still not even quite in his prime, so.
- [34:45]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, but no, but like I get, and I get, I, I get sucked into the argument of like he's only such and such age. But like Evan Mobley just seems like a guy who is who he is at all times. Right. Like he doesn't seem like a guy that's going to just flip the switch and he seems like the guy that has all the attributes but just maybe just doesn't have it in here to be that number one. Right. Like he can just be a number, like a great fourth option on your team, on a championship team. But like, I don't see him carrying. And that's the other thing about the Cavs, all of their dudes that are supposed to be dudes, including their actual dudes. I don't believe them. I'm sorry. I don't believe them. We talked about Donovan Mitchell a couple of pods ago. Roger. You brought up a great point where it was when I was like, you know, it's a travesty that Donovan Mitchell didn't get the ball down to stretch at an overtime series in game one. And you made the great point that I was just right in front of us the whole time. No, he has to demand that shit, like, and, yeah, but that Donovan Mitchell has always kind of been there, right? Like he's, he's always been a version of that. And James Harden even seven, eight years ago, was stinking up the joint in elimination games, even at his peak. Right. So what I see right here is, I see a number one option on the Cleveland Cavaliers and Donovan Mitchell, who I don't necessarily trust to demand the ball in the team's biggest moment. And then. But you're calling this his team. So if you trade for somebody else, what are you going to trade for? If you trade for a Giannis now, is it Giannis's team all of a sudden? And even then you have questions about his long term health. I think what you're going to have to do if you're a team in this era, even if you get to the conference finals, there's going to be so much variance with this apron era. I Think if you see a team that is just not a conference finals team or maybe they've hit their ceiling, you've got to pivot fast. You have to pivot fast. And I just don't. I see a lot. A team with a lot of great assets, and I. But I don't see a team that is presently constructed or any type of move that you make is going to get them to a certain point. Because if talent level, I think they're at the top of the Eastern Conference, I think the talent level alone, they should be able to make it to the Finals. But when you go into a series with a team that has the mental capacity to actually beat the shit out of somebody, I think the. The Cavs are going to wilt under that pressure, which is. And I think that's going to happen year in and year out. And so I just think that they've just hit a ceiling, and you just got to cut bait and figure it out with somebody other team. Because I think that inherently when they cut, when the chips are down, this team is not going to come through for you.
- [37:21]
Roger Bell
I. I like. I like your point. You know, I see Donovan. I see Donovan Mitchell as a. A star player, not a superstar player, but, like, superstar is like a very select few guys, but there are stars. But within that star, like, level itself, I don't think he's like, a top guy in that category.
- [37:47]
Logan Murdoch
Right?
- [37:48]
Roger Bell
So that. And that's okay. Like, you. You have a star, but then you got, you know, like, to really be good, then you got to have somebody in that next like. Like kind of 1B category. You know what I mean? And then, you know, it's like a sliding scale. If your star is, like, low on the star totem pole, you need your 1B to be like, a really good 1B, right? And then you need your number three guy to be at the top of the number three category. And they just fall, like, low on. On a lot of those categories, which limits your ceiling, in my opinion. Like, so I agree with you. My brain just rationalizes it like that, like, to your point, like, I. I love Donovan Mitchell, but I don't see him as like, you don't put the
- [38:29]
Logan Murdoch
fear of God in you if you're going into a series. He just.
- [38:31]
Roger Bell
Probably not.
- [38:32]
Logan Murdoch
Doesn't.
- [38:33]
Roger Bell
Probably not. And then, you know, James, where he's at at this point. And then Evan Mobley, look, whatever he could have been, I. I wasn't really tapped in, in his draft class like that. I don't know that I was One of the people that was tasked with, like, giving an opinion on that. But when I watch him play, I would love to have an Evan Mobley on my team in a certain role.
- [38:52]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [38:52]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [38:53]
Roger Bell
I don't see anything about his game that. That tells me he's going to turn into, like, give him the ball and get out of the way as he creates for himself or others consistently.
- [39:04]
Logan Murdoch
You know what he is, Roger. You know what he is? He's a great, like, open run guy. When you see him in an open run, you're like. And that's what you see in a Dr. Draft process, right? A lot of open runs, a lot of workouts, and you're like, damn, that dude has everything.
- [39:16]
Roger Bell
But, yeah, he's a 10. He's a. You know, he's a. It's tantalizing.
- [39:19]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [39:19]
Roger Bell
No, I don't. I understand exactly what you're saying. Like, that when you're sitting. When you're watching people and they're. They're running around with that. With that level of length, and then you see a skill combination with it, and then there's athleticism to boot. You're like, oh, if we can get if. And everybody always thinks, like, they're the one. Like, that's the funny thing about the NBA. Everybody thinks, like, they're the one that's going to be able to save him. It's like, captain saa, Right? Like, you're. No, I got this.
- [39:43]
Logan Murdoch
I'm gonna take care of it. Put your cape on. Put your cape on.
- [39:46]
Roger Bell
Yeah. You know, but, like. And I don't mean to be. I'm not trying to. He's a very nice player. He's just being. Again, you're asking him to play a role. Like, it's not where he's supposed to be cast in the movie.
- [39:58]
Howard Beck
He. I think he's really important to keep as part of what your build is. Right. If you're keeping Donovan Mitchell, I think you still want to have a Mobley. He still has more versatility and a higher ceiling than Jared Allen, as important as Jared Allen has been. Right? So, like, if you're trying to figure out, like, which pieces you're peeling off, I don't think you're trading Donovan Mitchell. If you're doing that, you're just. You're just deciding you're. You're going back to some sort of rebuild, Right? Maybe not a stripping it all the way down, but, like, without Donovan Mitchell, and then. Then what's the point of having Harden? So you. I don't think you're doing that and there's this temptation out there like, oh well, they trade all this draft capital to get Donovan Mitchell, pull the plug, flip him to get draft capital to replenish, right? Here's their win totals for the four years that they've had. Donovan Mitchell 51, 48, 64, 52. It's a pretty damn good four year run. A first round loss, two second round losses and now this conference finals meltdown. Like they have been a very, very relevant competitive competing or a compelling team and that's not nothing for a four year run. You can't, you can't just keep banging your head against the ceiling and hoping for a different outcome and not do anything. You can't stand still. But I also don't think you overreact and burn it all down. It's just hard finding the path forward in part because one of the big chips that they had to play was the Darius Garland chip and it's been played and it was for a guy 10 years older than him. So you don't, you don't, that's a lever you can't pull anymore. You can't trade hardened and get the kind of value that Garland represented at that time now. And, and Garland finished pretty strong in la and I know, listen, he was always getting hurt and the undersized backcourt was a problem and I totally get all the rationale for why they, they made the move. They did but they did shorten their window and they did play perhaps their best trade chip given his his age and, and upside still so, and they don't have draft capital and so like it's, it's going to be very, very difficult to maneuver from here. But I think that's also a reason for why you just kind of stay the course and hope, you know, try to do what you can around the edges. I, I, there's, there's no easy, there's no easy path.
- [42:17]
Logan Murdoch
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- [43:58]
Roger Bell
Was there some context? Like, because again, I was on the road, I was in EBL gyms all weekend. So like, you know, I, I saw the big to do about it. But like, how was. What was the question that was posed to him that elicited that response? Like was, was. Is there some context that I need to have before?
- [44:15]
Howard Beck
So my understanding, I'm glad you asked. My understanding is, and this is of course what happens, right. In our cut and paste aggregator world where things lose all context. And that's not a justification. And it was a bad quote regardless. But my understanding is that Kenny was asked something to the effect of, you know, you're down, oh three, no one, you know, and you know, obviously all the usual stuff teams never come back from, oh three in the NBA, blah, blah, blah.
- [44:38]
Roger Bell
What.
- [44:38]
Howard Beck
What still gives you optimism? And that's what he said. Well, you know, analytically, he's not actually saying we won those games or that we won. Analytically, what he's saying is that gives you hope. Yeah. As a means of explanation for why you have hope, it's that, yeah, their shot quality, which did not result in shots made, but their shot quality was really good and I think maybe better than the Knicks in those games. And that as a result, he's again, basically standing on process. Our process was Good, the outcomes were bad, the shots didn't go in, but we did the things necessary to put ourselves in the right position. He wasn't actually trying to declare we're up 2 to 1 or something like, that's asinine, that's crazy. And people interpreting it that way, I think are doing it in a somewhat disingenuous way. But it's still, it's a clunky quote. It's a bad way of explaining it. There are, there were easier ways or better ways to say, I, I think we're playing, we're doing things the right way. The outcome hasn't been good, but we're doing things the right way as opposed to don't use. Using analytics is gonna, the word analytics is gonna trigger a bunch of people anyway. Saying that we won the shot quality battle is gonna trigger a bunch of people anyway because nobody gives a fuck about shot quality if you lost on the scoreboard by double digits. His premise wasn't bad. The way he phrased it was regrettable, I'd say.
- [46:03]
Roger Bell
Yeah, I mean, how do I say this right? Like, I, I agree with you, Howard. I don't have a problem. You know, the people that were reacting the way they were reacting when I was catching my little segments of, of media when I was on the road didn't represent that well. They, There was very little context given to what he was asked. But given the context, I don't, I understand what he was trying to get to
- [46:29]
Howard Beck
the.
- [46:29]
Roger Bell
I don't have a problem with the analytics, but I think it's the guy with the analytics that can marry the feel and the personality and the charisma with the analytics that pulls that press conference off better. Because he can say, yo, if I say this stupid shit and go into this hole with analytics, I'm going to get fried. I am absolute fries right now. So let me just say, hey, we're getting a lot of the shots that we like. We're not making them right now. And he didn't pull that off. I don't have a. Look, I'm not the dude sitting here railing against analytics. I don't want to be that guy. I, I, I was blessed to spend a year in the front office. And I saw how, you know, some of the guys that I worked with were more heavily into the analytics, appreciated my more player feel kind of input, and I appreciated theirs. And I saw firsthand how those things can kind of work together. And if, if you can get the right kind of formula in your front office or in your Decision making. There's a place for all of that. I would just say it's like anything in life when you're out of balance and you're relying too heavily on just feel and eye test or just analytics and, you know, I think you have a problem. And most of the guys my age or older are going to always give the guy who's relying on the feel and the eye test the benefit of the doubt more than they're going to give the guy that's relying purely on analytics the benefit of doubt. That's just the way it is. They weren't as prevalent like they. They were around when I played. But, like, you had to go looking for them, the generation before me, you know, that's. That it's a tough sell to them. So, like, I don't really have. I don't really have an issue with it. I understand what he was trying to say. He did not execute it well at all.
- [48:16]
Howard Beck
No.
- [48:17]
Roger Bell
And it come. And that's part of your job, though, right? Like, I've said this before. You know, part of my job in Cleveland was to get to David Blatt because David was, you know, used to dealing with FIBA and Euroleague and. And those press conferences and that media is completely different than ours. And, you know, David would get up there and. And kind of be, you know, glib and kind of like, you know, just kind of playing the role that he played there. And my job was to get to him before the press conference and be like, hey, hey, David, listen, here's what we're trying. Here's what we're trying to say now, you know, I wasn't the boss of that. Like, I get those directions from Griff or somebody, but, like, there's messaging that we're trying to get across there. And like, as a team, if you're the one with the mic in your face, your job is to. To execute that. And he didn't do it.
- [49:08]
Howard Beck
Yeah. I want to just quickly just note, because this is not really an analytics debate and this should not be an analytics referendum. It was a reference to a specific kind of stat that is sometimes useful to coaches and sometimes not. Whatever. But this is not an analytics debate. And I just want to say, because Logan brought up the idea like, oh, the analytics people are going to, like, they're not rushing to defend him. I want to point this out. Seth Part now, who I teach with the sports business classroom in the summer. And of course, he wrote for the Athletic for a long time. Seth's done all kinds of stuff and is awesome and used to work for the Bucs. Seth, in the midst of that blowout last night, posted to Blue sky quote, I dare him to shot quality, this one and capital shot quality. Because that's the, that's the stat. So his point was kind of like, just don't even. Like, as an analytics guy, Seth is like, just stop, stop, don't. You're using this to deflect in a way that's not healthy for anyone. So I don't think the analytics community was happy with this either. Logan, if I can base it on
- [50:09]
Logan Murdoch
Seth's tweet, I apologize to the analytic community for having you up. My bad. That was. That's. That's Lolo's bad also. Shout out. Seth, I'm a fan of your work. I think it was. I, I believe I agree with Raja largely just like an optics type of situation, right? Like you, it is part of your job. And Kenny Atkinson's just. I don't know if he's that good at that part of the job, right? Like, and even last, last night, I forget the quote. He just said some stuff that I was after the game last night where I was just like, I don't think there's a lot of times when I see pressers from Kenny Agriculton's like, I
- [50:44]
Roger Bell
wouldn't want to say that right now.
- [50:46]
Logan Murdoch
Like, maybe you should say the analytics quote to your team. Just like, just to your team. And you don't have to tell it to us because, I mean, we all rail against the, the aggregation culture and that, but it is the culture. It is what it is, right? And it's. We've been in this world long enough to kind of know how you need to deal with things in this new world, right? Like if you think something's going to get taken out of context, like it's going to get taken out of context and you have to think about that before you say something, right? Like, that's just the world we live in, no matter what, Right? And so he just has to figure that out going forward. And just like we all have to. But that was the biggest thing about this type of quota was it's just like we're going to run with it and it's going to be a big thing and it's. In this day and age, it's going to have the potential to take on a life of its own and maybe how it. In a way that it wouldn't in previous generations.
- [51:44]
Roger Bell
Yeah, yeah. A lot of. A lot of it. Sorry, but a lot of What? Like, yeah, his stuff just lands wrong on the ear. It just hits your ear wrong sometimes. Right? And like, you know, it's really interesting though, because for both sides of that basketball community that I'm talking about, like the eyeball, former player, more experienced, like, actually on the court, that guy can come across and things can hit your ear wrong, too. And usually, generally when that happens with them, it's like, you know, I played, you didn't. So you don't understand what I'm talking about. Right. And that's offensive in its own.
- [52:15]
Logan Murdoch
Right.
- [52:15]
Roger Bell
Right. Like, just because you didn't play something like, or live, it doesn't mean you couldn't have studied it and, and, and worked at it and, and gotten to the point where you fully understand it and that, that rubs, you know, you wrong as well. The, the analytic community comes across as. And I don't mean to paint everyone in this life, but typically what hits my ear wrong with them is they kind of think they're smarter. Like, no matter what you're talking about, like, we're smarter because we have these numbers here and they both.
- [52:43]
Logan Murdoch
Nerd alert energy.
- [52:44]
Roger Bell
It's a. Yeah, they equally rub you the wrong way, right? Like, like one's coming from like, oh, you. You never did this shit, so how could you have an opinion on it, right? As a player, like, you weren't as gifted as me physically, so how dare you have a brain that speaks the same language that I speak.
- [53:01]
Logan Murdoch
The fact that like all, all, most all time great players are terrible coaches just is what it is.
- [53:07]
Roger Bell
Yeah, it's just, it's an interesting thing for me. Right on. Like human, like.
- [53:09]
Howard Beck
And terrible talent evaluators too, by the way.
- [53:12]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Before we get to Mailbag, what do you think? Sorry. Yeah, we got, we had time. We got, you know, we got.
- [53:22]
Roger Bell
You were doing so good, bro. You like? Smooth, bro. That was a. It was smooth. Go.
- [53:26]
Logan Murdoch
I'm sorry.
- [53:27]
Roger Bell
Redo it.
- [53:27]
Logan Murdoch
You know, weather in the Bay Area, Logan, it's beautiful right now I'm looking out, I can see the Bay Bridge. It's going to be like 70 degrees. I'm going to go to walk after this. There we go. I love the part of the pod where everybody's weather is great. It's awesome because everybody's, like, in a chipper mood. You know what I mean?
- [53:45]
Roger Bell
And you know, hey, Turt, Turtle park in Piedmont, bro. Do yourself a favor. Take the little man. Turtle park, but Turtle parking.
- [53:53]
Logan Murdoch
Okay. All right. Is it better than Lake Merritt? Did you ever take a trip To Lake Merritt when it was sunny and it was beautiful. Did you ever do that?
- [54:00]
Roger Bell
No, I did not. Lake Merritt. I think they tried to put me in an apartment right there on Lake Merritt.
- [54:05]
Logan Murdoch
Actually. No, not for you. I've heard stories about NBA players in Lake Meredith. It's an accident.
- [54:09]
Roger Bell
Yeah. I don't.
- [54:10]
Logan Murdoch
It's a good place to visit, but I wouldn't say live there.
- [54:12]
Roger Bell
I. Yeah, I elected not to live there, but. Yeah. Turtle Park, Piedmont. Just a nice stroll, man. My boys used to love it.
- [54:22]
Logan Murdoch
It's a body of water within the cityscape, which is honestly a commonality between OKC and San Antonio, which is a series we're going to quickly transition to. Raj, what were your thoughts on game four? Quickly.
- [54:37]
Roger Bell
I tuned out at halftime. I'm just being honest with you.
- [54:41]
Logan Murdoch
After the Wimby three, you were like, yeah, that's it.
- [54:44]
Roger Bell
Not. Not at halftime, but, like, quickly thereafter. Here's quickly. I'll just say this. OKC might be at a point where physically, they don't have enough playmakers, as simple as I can put it, to counter what San Antonio can do to you defensively at times. You know, they were already fighting an uphill battle because coming into the series, we talked about the things that San Antonio can do to you from a size versatility, guarding the perimeter standpoint. That's before you introduce Wemby to be able to take care of multiple problems after they've happened and challenge at the rim. But if you've only got one real creator, I mean, that really narrows a team's scope when they're having to prepare for you. I. That's. I don't know how else to put that.
- [55:36]
Logan Murdoch
It was crazy seeing game four, like Hartenstein, be their second option in the first part of the game. And once he was done, like, once that floater wasn't cooking, it was like, okay, where do we get office from?
- [55:47]
Roger Bell
I'm telling you right now, that's a like, okay, Sees. Unless Shea has just an incredible Shay game, which I don't even imagine now, San Antonio would allow him to just beat someone. Like, I don't. I think that's out of the cards for them now. Right? So, like, you're just going to challenge everybody else to beat you without those other two guys on the floor. I don't see how San Antonio lets him go, you know, mano a mano and try to beat someone. But, like, they would need otherworldly performances from two other people. I don't. I don't see it. I think they're I think they're in trouble.
- [56:21]
Howard Beck
I'll say. It was amazing to consider when we've talked about the Thunder being, like, the deepest team, you know, in the modern NBA, right? And all that depth, but you just take out two pieces and that. And it's. And if it's those two pieces, Jalen Williams, AJ Mitchell, like, suddenly all that. Like, the rest of that depth doesn't matter because everybody else are, like, shooters and defenders and specialists, whatever. But having guys who can do a bunch with the ball in their hands and take that pressure off Shay and compliment him and keep the defense honest, like, it's. It's massive. So it's not just that it's two players. It's.
- [56:50]
Logan Murdoch
It's.
- [56:50]
Howard Beck
It's those two players. Yeah, yeah.
- [56:54]
Roger Bell
Just. It's not. And just to piggyback and to go back, that's the. That's the player that I'm saying Cleveland needs. You understand what I'm saying? Like, another guy. Another guy that can create Williams. Yes, yes, yes.
- [57:07]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [57:07]
Logan Murdoch
So the pro. I want to go back to that real quick. So the problem, when I have it, a Jalen Williams type, right, For Cleveland specifically, is Donovan Mitchell would still be the number one guy, right? And again, I think with him being the number one guy, I think there would still be a ceiling if I were to put Jalen Williams on that team. No,
- [57:27]
Roger Bell
I. Ceiling. I think you're raising your ceiling with the Jalen Williams type. With Donovan Mitchell, like, I. I really do, because he's like, you know, Jalen. Jalen carried at times last year in the playoffs.
- [57:41]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, it just really sucks, man. It really sucks that he's hurt. Like, he got. Because he played so well and, like, put his body on the line last year, he basically sacrificed a year, and that's really hard to see.
- [57:53]
Howard Beck
Right?
- [57:53]
Logan Murdoch
Like, also, if there is a world, based on how you're talking, Raja, if OKC somehow gets out of this and, like, you know, she goes super Saiyan. Because I feel like that's the only way. Or, like, Chet turns into, like, Bill Walton over the last few games and they're going against a Knicks team who's well rested, do they get through that series, too? Like, if that were to happen, just hypothetically speaking,
- [58:18]
Roger Bell
without Jalen. So A.J. mitchell's got a calf, right? Yeah, I've had cash. That shit's not healing. That's not healing. Like, today, tomorrow, or three days from now. The hammy was sore and then was upgraded is what I heard. To, like, a straight hammy again.
- [58:35]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I Believe he's like, questionable for tonight. I don't want to get too. I want to make it evergreen enough so you know people.
- [58:39]
Roger Bell
So here's. Here's the deal. Here's a deal with it. Here's the deal with a questionable hammy. You're going to go out there and if you can play for a while, you will. And then guess what is more than likely going to happen to that questionable hammy. That's probably more than likely. Right?
- [58:55]
Logan Murdoch
So
- [58:57]
Roger Bell
would they. How would they fare against the Knicks? Not well. Not well. If you, again, to Howard's point, having the creation, right, and those two specific players, right, which is your, your 1B and then your backup to the 1B, right, like, they're both, they're the two guys that you need to fill that role. If I'm, if I'm preparing for you as a team, you know, part of the exercise is like, as an offense is to have so many things that the preparing defense has to account for that it's information overload to some degree. And, you know, in these gray areas, people are going to make mistakes because they got to worry about, hey, what's the assignment when Logan has it and it's not a same size screen? And what's the assignment when Logan has it and it is the same size screen? Or what's the assignment when Logan has it and he's got an a, a, a, a naked side and there's, there's no help, you know, for the role in the corner? Like, these are just. This is one player. Like, what, you know, what are we doing when Logan has it? But when I've got to do that for really three guys, that spreads out the information that people have to, like, you know, you know, absorb and execute in real time. And they make mistakes. And, you know, when you only have to do that for one person, it really allows everyone on that team not just the focal point of, of the, the defender that's guarding him, but the rest of the team a lot. Some of the times you see Giannis play, what do teams do to Giannis?
- [60:26]
Logan Murdoch
We're gonna build a fucking wall.
- [60:28]
Roger Bell
There's five sets of eyes like, hey, bro, no, you're the only thing we're worried about here. Yeah, but, but, like, it really allows the team to do that in a way that I have real concerns for OKC if they cannot, they're still really good. Shea's unbelievable. They have pieces and maybe Chad is unlocked in a series like the Knicks in a way that he's not unlocked in The San Antonio series. And if that would be the case, and I saw it, I might sing a different tune. But, like, I'm concerned for them.
- [60:52]
Logan Murdoch
Like, hey, that, that was the cons. I mean, the thing about it is I feel like. I feel like against any other team in the Western Conference, maybe Denver at full strength is an exception to what I'm about to say, but any other team in the Western Conference, I feel like under these circumstances, I think the OKC Thunder could pull it out, right? Because also I think against any other team, again, maybe Denver at full strength, they won't be, they wouldn't be getting their ass kicked as much as they're getting in this series. Like, it's just taken a toll playing against a team like San Antonio game in and game out. But that's something that we talked about all season, right? And why we were like, oh, San Antonio might be the antidote to this, right? Because they can, they can match up with you. Well, they're physical and they have, they have one. Like, I don't want to say the greatest defender of all time yet because it's early, but Jesus, like, what do you want me to say here, right? Like, you have women, Yama, who can just erase all of your flaws as a defense. It's just, it's. It's tough. And that's, that's, that's what you're going to see in these playoffs. As you know, we get into kind of the, you know, just late stage, just NBA with just how taxing this game is already. The teams that you see win 60 games, they're not a shoe in by any means to get to the finals because you can get your ass kicked with a certain matchup. And that's what we're seeing here. What a compelling series. And also might be a little anticlimactic with all these injuries. I'm not gonna lie, because we didn't get to see them at full strength all seven games or six or seven games. So that's tough. Anyways, let's get to Mailbag really quickly. Cliff. Cliff, you boot out the 2 Philly fan are you feeling. How do you feel about the Knicks going to the finals? Are you doing okay?
- [62:37]
Cliff
Yeah, I'm fine.
- [62:38]
Logan Murdoch
A lot of propaganda. A lot of propaganda in our death row East. Chat with me, you and Steph going on right now. A lot of Knicks propaganda.
- [62:44]
Cliff
I'm cooling, man. Shout out to the Knicks. I got mad love from New York, you know what I mean? Used to go back and forth as a young boy. My Family in Queens. I used to live in Brooklyn. Shout out to New York man Jamaica what up Queensbridge? What up Queensbridge? What up? Yeah, shout out to New York man Hollis.
- [62:57]
Logan Murdoch
What up Flushing? What up?
- [63:02]
Cliff
Nah, not Flushing. That's where the Mets play. I can't do that. Anyways, let's get to. Let's get to this mailbag. This is from Butch Rosser. I hope I'm saying that right. Butch Rosser 25:26 Autopsy is the title of this emojis. As a longtime association fan, I find it interesting that for all the mostly justified hand wringing over tanking and injuries this year, what the season is going to end with is one of the A OKC firmly putting down stakes as a historical force. B the spurs making the biggest season to season jump in league history with a star at its center who isn't even going to hit his prime until the 2030sc. The Knicks winning their first championship in almost 60 years and causing a joygasm amongst the media and New York fans that will last until the heat death of the universe.
- [63:47]
Logan Murdoch
This is a what yo, this is
- [63:53]
Howard Beck
gonna make him say it again.
- [63:56]
Cliff
You can just rewind a tape there. This is all to queue up a question. If Adam Silver and or his staff were to take down or take a top down look at the season and do an autopsy on what worked and what didn't throughout the year, do you think that the likelihood of a banger ass finals with plenty of historical stakes can cover up some of the league's worser sins? Thanks for the pod and the thoughtful reactions as always. All the doors. Butch Rosser. I hope I'm saying that correctly. Butch Rosser.
- [64:21]
Roger Bell
Rosser.
- [64:22]
Logan Murdoch
Oh also he has a quote in this email. I got people to take care of and writing is way better than doing actual work.
- [64:29]
Cliff
Shout out to Shay.
- [64:30]
Logan Murdoch
Shout out to Shay Serrano.
- [64:32]
Howard Beck
That's amazing. That's amazing that his email sig is a Shay Serrano quote. That's, that's awesome. Love it. Love Shay. You know, I wrote a whole column coming out of the All Star break about how Adam Silver was facing like more simultaneous crises than maybe any commissioner in NBA history. There's just so much going on between the, the tanking issues and you know, whatever you want to throw in there. Flopping cap, circumvention, gambling, all this other stuff. So butch. Like I see what, what you're saying, like this has been like, I think this has been a really tough season for the NBA, broadly speaking. Right. The discourse around the league, something some of it on the court. A lot of it off the court has been difficult. Not positive, not great. I do think that at the end of the day, like, people just want to be entertained. And so a lot of these things, like cap circumvention feels like the biggest thing in the world when Pablo first breaks that story, and it just kind of moves to the background. The gambling thing, we thought, like, the wheels were coming off, like, every. Like, oh, my God, like there's a hole opening up and it's going to swallow the NBA back in October, and we've barely talked about it since then. People care about the games. They care about stars. They care about being entertained. They care about compelling series. The Knicks are an incredible fucking story. They have this amazing run, and to Butch's point, they're going to face either the Thunder trying to go back to back and with. With a really great young core, or the spurs making their debut with Wemby at age 22 in his first postseason ever, making the Finals incredible and then playing at the Garden incredible. Yeah, I do think, at least for a time, that will all obliterate whatever concerns angst. There was about other things in the league this season, but those things still exist, right? Like, the league still has shit to address. They're going to be voting on new lottery reform measures a couple days from now. So that will be right back in the headlines. The flopping stuff. Like, I can't go. I can't go online for five minutes on any freaking platform without somebody yelling about the Thunder and saying, like, they're just a. They're completely a product of, like, foul grifting and this and that, whatever. And flopping all. Like, just shut up already. Everybody already, like, just enjoy the freaking games. Like, calm down. It ain't that bad. I'm overreacting by allowing myself to react to social media at all because a lot of it is so stupid. But I don't think most of that is really detracting. I think we're going to have an incredible finals and. Yeah, well, the rest of that stuff will come back around in due time.
- [67:04]
Logan Murdoch
Hey, Howard. Roger. What do I always say? What do I always say, Bill? Roger, what did I say a couple pods ago?
- [67:10]
Roger Bell
What did he say?
- [67:12]
Logan Murdoch
What did I say? You got. No, just playing. I was trying to pull a Roger in the joke.
- [67:19]
Roger Bell
I know. I know what I always say at the end of one of these questions. Yeah, what he said.
- [67:24]
Howard Beck
Everybody stay off social media.
- [67:25]
Logan Murdoch
The cure. The cure for controversy is winning. And the league is winning right now. You know they, it sweeps everything under the rug. Ratings bonanza, all that stuff. Controversy has no shot against winning. And if they continue to win, it's going to like, oh, well, you know, we're winning, we're making a lot of money. We just had a New York. The way Roger says it, like A New York vs. Wimy finals. Wimy could win his first title. It's always important to get that early one when you're a young guy of his stature. Just get one early chip in the bank and then keep on rolling. But like, yo, man, there's so many storylines here, dog.
- [68:03]
Howard Beck
Yeah, there's enough joy gasms to go around, I think.
- [68:07]
Cliff
Come on, man.
- [68:08]
Logan Murdoch
All right, man. Yo, yo, yo, yo, yo. Wow. I gotta duck for cover. I'm sorry.
- [68:17]
Howard Beck
I had to. I'm punchy, man. I was up early this morning. Do exact spot too. I'm just like, I'm just, you know, I'm losing it.
- [68:25]
Logan Murdoch
Jesus. That. Is that what it's like being old? You're. You're cranky when it's too late and you're cranky when it's too early. There's like a three hour sweet spot where you're good.
- [68:32]
Howard Beck
That's pretty much it. Yes. You nailed it.
- [68:35]
Logan Murdoch
Correct. All right, cool. All right, Cliff, what's the next question?
- [68:37]
Cliff
All right, let's, let's. Let's end off with this one. This is a free agency question. This is from Yanado Balu. I hope I'm saying that rightly. Yanado Balu. Hey, roll ones. Big fan. Love the show. Question about free agency. Do you think the winning team influences free agency decisions and strategies in the rest of the league? And now how differently do you see potential wins impacting free agency this year? If the Thunder repeat versus the spurs or Knicks winning, which do you think causes the biggest wildest free agency moves? Or do you see it as management having their plans already fixed and a champion not really influencing off season moves like that? Thanks again. Love the show. Go Knicks. Yanedo Ballou.
- [69:14]
Logan Murdoch
Yes, sir. I think, you know, when I your question, He's sleep. It's fine. It's fine. All right, cool. All right. You got a front row seat. This is what I think, man. I think that if the Knicks lose there, there's more chances of not necessarily upheaval. We'll just make it another move just to fortify their roster. I think San Antonio and the Thunder, if they were to lose or win, I think that they still just stamp Pat, bro. Like, I think that they're very patient front office I don't see them just rap like, like the spurs were, were confronted with like, hey, do you guys want to get kd? Do we want to get Katie and bring them into our program? And they didn't even, you know, they didn't even budge. Right. And that was the biggest fish to go get. Do they want to get Giannis? They don't necessarily have to. They're Victor Wimbanyama, man. Like they, they could just afford to be patient. Same with San Antonio. I mean, same. Excuse me, same with okc. I mean, Roger just kind of touched on it. Right. Like they have a lot of injuries, but that is a championship level roster right now.
- [70:19]
Roger Bell
Right.
- [70:19]
Logan Murdoch
Like there doesn't, there's still, there's still a two man race between those two. And that would just mean tinkering. But I don't necessarily think that, you know, them losing or winning is going to impact them. I think that if the Knicks lose or win, I think that would more have an impact on what they do in the off season. Howard is our, as our New York correspondent, do you. Is that. Does that track.
- [70:46]
Howard Beck
I read the question a little differently, actually. I was thinking it was more about like the. How the league reacts. Right. Every.
- [70:52]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, like how other teams react.
- [70:55]
Howard Beck
Yeah. Because.
- [70:55]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, yeah.
- [70:56]
Howard Beck
We're always trying to figure out how do you take. Because every champion in the moment looks unbeatable. Right. Because we always overreact and we're all prisoners in the moment. And so it's like, oh my God, the Celtics. How is any team ever going to knock them out when Jokic won his first a few years back, oh, my God, how's anybody going to deal with the Nuggets? And then we certainly did that about the Thunder because they were the youngest team when to win a championship in like 50 years and one of the deepest. And they've got all this draft capital they can just keep replenishing. Here we are a year later. I don't want to say they're on the ropes. It's a tied series, but in a way it kind of feels like they're on the ropes, but based on just the war of attrition, the injuries and the fact that spurs are just so damn good and they're another team that's super young, tons of growth ahead of them, lots of flexibility, lots of draft capital to keep building. I actually have a story up as it happens on Ringer.com today about the idea that how the rest of the league is dealing with the specter of Spurs Thunder dominance for years to Come started reporting and writing that before the Knicks swept. So all due fairness and respect to the Knicks, but they're not the team that everybody's, like, going, oh, my God, what do we do with that? Because they don't have a Wembanyama or a Shay. Again, all due respect to Jalen Brunson, he's not in that same tier. And so I think the way the league reacts to these teams is to say, well, especially if you're in the west, we have to. We don't have a choice. If we're going to do anything in the next five, six, seven, maybe 10 years, we do need to find some sort of. Of antidote for Victor Wembanyama. We're not gonna. We're not gonna be able to, like, like, knock this guy out of, like, take him out offensively, defensively, whatever, but we got to find a way around him or we got to find more bigs to. To foul him. We got to figure out something. And similar with, you know, the. The Shay Jdub Chet trio, right? How do we. Do we build a team or augment our team in a way that gives us enough, you know, whether it's big wing defenders to deal with Shay or. Or whatever it may be, I don't think it's extreme, but I do think teams, as they go into the off season, are at least thinking about this stuff. But one of the things that the GMs told me for the story that's up on the ringer.com today was just basically like, you can't. You. There is no Wemby antidote. Just like there was no. There was no Michael Jordan stopper. There was no Shaq or Kobe stopper. Shout out to Reuben Patterson for declaring himself a Kobe stopper. But you find enough defenders or players that can attack their weaknesses, and you try to win your own way and make them have to deal with you, too, because you're not replicating Wembanyama and you're not replicating Shay.
- [73:37]
Logan Murdoch
Last thing I'll say. You have anything? Roger, do you have anything?
- [73:39]
Roger Bell
I do. I do.
- [73:40]
Logan Murdoch
Okay.
- [73:41]
Roger Bell
I'm not really participating in the segment, but I just want to say that I appreciate Howard just clarifying what I try to tell people all the time. I never said anything about Kobe stopping, ever. That never came out of my mouth. Do you know how many people come to me and they're like, oh, Kobe. Or like, they'll be like, he says it's the Kobe stopper. I. That was not me. That was Reuben Patterson.
- [74:06]
Howard Beck
I think you Actually, specifically during your playing career, when somebody presented, I think you were actually asked about it once, and you actually tried to say, like, no, no, no, I'm not saying that. Right. I think you did that in real time.
- [74:14]
Roger Bell
Well, I said nobody stops, like, no, nobody stops him.
- [74:18]
Howard Beck
But I. I do think it's instructive to look back at that era where first teams were loading up on, like, you know, it was like Dale Davis and Antonio Davis or bigs to foul Shaq teams worst were loading up on, and it was a different kind of challenge. Shaq at his size. So you teams were loading up on big, strong dudes not because they thought they could match Shaq, but just they needed somebody to stand up to him at least and maybe fal him. Teams did go on a run, especially in the west, whether it was Reuben Patterson in Portland, whether it was Doug Christie in Sacramento, Bruce Bowen in San Antonio. Raja, you were part of that wave. Like, there were teams looking for, you know, capable wing defenders, hopefully, who could also shoot a little bit to at least give Kobe some resistance, who. And who were bold enough and physical enough to. To. To stand up to him. Right. So, like, that is a thing, and I think there's some version of that probably that will go on now with regard to the Thunder and Spurs and who knows, maybe. Maybe the Knicks as well. They're. They're. They're constructed a little differently, right? It's. It's not quite the same formula, but. But teams do react that way. They're looking for guys who can at least stand up.
- [75:25]
Logan Murdoch
I think that what's going to happen is it's just going to be if. If the. If the. The. If the goal is to stop Wimy, it's going to be like how it was in those 2000s when everybody was trying to stop Shaq and fortifying their roster to try to. To guard a shack, like, figure, right? Or it's because. Or like in the, you know, late 20, in the early 2000 and tens, when, like the Thunder inexplicably, like, just traded for Kendrick Perkins, right? And they're trying to. Teams just do this where they kind of. It's always reactionary. It's. Whenever something is reactionary, it's typically too late. You know, you saw it even with Steph, right, when Steph was doing great. Other teams were just trying to. We're just gonna go small, and we're gonna try to be the antidote by going small. I think you're going to see that over the next 10 years to try to Just instead of making a team that is just going to be good for the sake of being good, it's going to be, oh, we're just chasing Wimby and we're going to try to fortify a roster to do that. And I don't know if that's the move.
- [76:27]
Roger Bell
I'll just say like this. It's, look, Shaq was unstoppable.
- [76:35]
Logan Murdoch
They only make one of those.
- [76:36]
Roger Bell
Shaq, no, but they. They make way more like bodies that can deal with seven, one wide body than they do that can guard seven, six. They're not walking around like, I don't know. You understand what I'm saying? Like, I could throw 6, 10 with. That's just big, physical, strong. I could throw him at Shaq. And, like, their bodies to throw at that, like seven, six is a lot harder.
- [77:06]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. 50 Cent is coming. Okay, that has been another edition of Real Ones. What a fun episode, man. We got Roger to stay up for an hour and 15, baby. And he got the last word. That's crazy. Oh, right.
- [77:21]
Roger Bell
Yeah. Thanks, buddy.
- [77:22]
Logan Murdoch
We're getting ready. We're not around. We gotta see you on Friday. Ah, all the shits talk soon. Bye.
- [77:31]
Roger Bell
Foreign.
- [77:37]
Logan Murdoch
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