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- [00:02]
Zach Lowe
Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe Show. That's right, I'm back to have the same in depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games. Yeah, the games, the X's and O's, the drama, the trades. The playoffs are coming up and now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're going to love.
- [00:28]
Logan Murdoch
So.
- [00:28]
Zach Lowe
So make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen to your podcast. Let's go.
- [00:38]
Logan Murdoch
What's good? This is Logan Murdoch here. Welcome to another edition of Real Ones. We have a great show popping for you today. The NBA Finals has been great, but we're not going to talk about that as much today because by the time you get this, it's probably going to be game time. So we're going to talk a bit. Little. Little Knicks coaching search. What the heck are they doing? It's weird, right? You fire a coach and then you have no plan of action. Then we're going to talk about Kevin Durant and the legacy of his career and what that means for this trade season and where he's going to go potentially for a trade. Who knows? All that and more on Real Ones with myself, Raja Bell and Howard Blip. Blip Beck. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.
- [01:21]
Zach Lowe
On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help.
- [01:31]
Logan Murdoch
You find the coverage you need. You could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm with the assist.
- [01:40]
Zach Lowe
Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.
- [01:45]
Logan Murdoch
All right, but first, Cliff, play the theme music. What's poppin? Real Ones. Logan K. Here. Russell Phil. Here. Howard Beck is in the cut, ladies and gentlemen, and I just want to ask. Just put a wellness check here on the podcast before we get to Nixon, KD and some evergreen storylines. I don't have to do anything with the Finals because this is going to come out during game four. And everything we probably would say about the finals will probably be null and void by the time this podcast comes out. First of all, Howard, are you okay? And are you having fun in Indianapolis?
- [02:25]
Howard Beck
I'm okay. I've been better. I've been sharper, I've been sober. Might have been a little over. Might have been a little bit of a late night in downtown Indy. Might still be shaking off some cobwebs. Might. But I'm going to get through it because, you know, I'm a gamer, and this. It's. You know, we. We play all year for this time of the year, and, you know, I'm gonna bring it.
- [02:55]
Zach Lowe
That's right. You're a pro. Sometimes. Sometimes the best games are had off of not feeling great. I don't necessarily mean hungover. I mean, like, you could have the flu, you know, and you're not. You're feeling shitty, and you walk in the building, and now. Now you really got to be on point, Howard. So, like, I expect nothing less.
- [03:11]
Howard Beck
This is my floor.
- [03:13]
Logan Murdoch
I'm not going to divulge where Howard was in the debauchery that ensued, where he was at. But I will say this. It was hilarious when Roger came onto the call and he saw Howard and was. Was privy. Began to get privy to the information, and just a wide smile went to his face.
- [03:36]
Howard Beck
People are going to think this is so much worse than it is, by the way. I just want to make it clear this is not involved, like, strip clubs or anything else in that neighborhood or anything else. That's actual debauchery. It was just a little bit too much alcohol, hanging out with certain people.
- [03:50]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. Just good times. Just good times.
- [03:52]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [03:52]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, Good times. Just good times. By the way, I am a fan.
- [03:56]
Zach Lowe
Of anyone having good times, bro. I'm for good times. Let's get it.
- [03:59]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. By the way, in the limited experience time that I've had with Raja, he's up for a good time. He's. He's Mr. You know what it.
- [04:08]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I mean, I. I've had a good time or two.
- [04:13]
Logan Murdoch
I'm.
- [04:13]
Zach Lowe
I am now close to 50. Good times don't feel as great the next day, but, like, yeah, I've had a time or two.
- [04:20]
Logan Murdoch
Do you do that? Do you do the licking of the tongue into the eyebrows? Are you at that stage yet of life or not anymore? Where are we at? How are we feeling? Are you there, Roger, or. No.
- [04:31]
Zach Lowe
No, no, no, no, no. I. Like, I told you, bro, I've got to travel all week. Next week, I'm at the stage of life where I'm prepping for that. Immunity shots, vitamins, proper hydration. Like, that's 45 plus. Okay, so I'm in prep mode for a week long trip.
- [04:47]
Logan Murdoch
You know, this pod is really just cosplay for giving for y' all. Old Heads giving me and Cliff and Victoria game on how to become adults one day. You know, it's really all of this. It's really where we're at right now. But speaking of not having adults in the room, the New York Knicks. Wow, we're here. We're here. So I want to start with the Raja on this, because last pod, we, it was the beginning of the. I don't even know what you want to call it that's going on with the New York Knicks. And Raja, you know, third eye raw here was like, yeah, man, there has to be something more going down, right? Because at the time, all the, the, the information that we had had at the time was that Thibodeau got fired and that they are looking for a new coach. Apparently that means they're going to scour the league for coaches that are, one, employed and two, in good standing with their organization and three, have no chance of going to them. Which means in your eyes, they don't have a plan. Raja, what does this tell you? What are the tea leaves telling you about how this is going? From someone a thousand miles south in Miami who, you know, kind of watches the league and has been a part of it, what does this tell you about what's going on in the Knicks organization right now?
- [06:12]
Zach Lowe
Dysfunction. Disconnect. At least to some degree. I'm not saying total dysfunction. They've been a lot better as an organization lately. I think it speaks to some level of disconnect or dysfunction, probably between ownership and, and executives there. This is. You asked me to read tea leaves. Like, obviously there's no evidence other than what I'm looking at to suggest this, but like Leon Rose and those guys don't really strike me as, as, as, as incompetent. Right? Like, they just, they've done a very good job over the last few years. This is, this speaks to incompetence. You hopped out, you just went to the Eastern Conference finals. Like Tibbs, for whatever he may have been lacking in New York Knicks fans eyes, he did, you know, preside over the organization doing things in the last five years that they haven't done what in the last couple decades, probably. So like to hop out with no plan in terms of replacement for him and fire him. I think either speaks to what I just said or what I said a pod or so ago, which was there might have been something personally that happened between Tibbs and someone else within the organization, namely someone in that executive office, for them to just part ways like that. Other than that, it doesn't make any sense to me.
- [07:37]
Logan Murdoch
What is your read on this? Howard Resident, you know, former New York beat, New York Knicks beat writer.
- [07:43]
Howard Beck
I'll, I'll start with. This is just kind of a data point, right? Because I've been doing this a long time and I have never seen a team be, go and investigate, ask for and be turned down by five different teams to speak with their currently employed and under contract coaches. It's very rare in the first place at all in the NBA for a coach who is under contract to be freed from that contract to go to another team. We saw it happen with Jason Kidd going from Brooklyn to the Bucks about 10 years ago. We saw it happen with Doc Rivers going from Boston to the Clippers. We refer to these as being traded. But it's. The coaches don't get traded. Just you're, you're giving compensation to the team to let them out of their contract effectively. And it happens once in a blue moon, like once every, you know, 10, 15 years. So it's not even so. So the whole maneuver of trying to hire a coach who's already under contract with another team is rare. Trying to do it five times and not even getting permission to speak to any of them is, Is just bizarre. I, I don't even know how to classify it because I've just never seen this. Like, what exactly are you doing? Like, it's one thing to fire Tibbs. There were, you know, cases for cases against whatever. There's a case to say that if you're going to fire a coach who's as accomplished as Tibs, you better have somebody lined up already. I'm not sure I'm convinced of that last part. But, like, at least have a decent plan for how you're going to then identify who your new coach should be. And there are plenty of coaches who are available right now, as in not under contract, who do not need permission granted. Why are you going and asking about all the coaches who are already under contract? Like, I just, it's strange and I don't know what it speaks to other than, you know, Raj has used the dysfunction word, the D word. Like, that has been the most apt adjective for that franchise for most of the last 25 years, except for the last five when they've actually been very solid and this feels like they're backsliding.
- [09:54]
Zach Lowe
I just want to push back a little bit, Howard. Like, I. If you're not willing to say, you, you agree with knowing where you're going to go, if you're going to fire, I'll say, you better fucking know where you're going to go. You better have some idea of what you want to do if you're going to fire Tibbs. Now, I'm. You know, Jason Kidd could have been included in that group of people, but that group of people better have been identified and at least some of them not being tied to another franchise.
- [10:25]
Howard Beck
Yeah, no, no, I don't mean you shouldn't have a plan for how you're going to approach the search after you fired him. I just mean, like, you don't. I don't think you necessarily have to know exactly the guy. Like, it doesn't have to be like, we're firing this guy because we already have this other guy lined up. Like, that would be ideal. But if you think that you just reached the end of the road with Tibs for whatever reason, it's not that you need to have somebody else lined up specifically. You just need somebody who's going to give you the things that you thought Tibbs did not. Right.
- [10:52]
Zach Lowe
I. I agree with that.
- [10:53]
Howard Beck
Okay.
- [10:54]
Zach Lowe
Like, if you have a list of, like, four or five young coaches that want to refresh your.
- [10:58]
Howard Beck
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they got to be. At least one of the people that you're targeting has to be gettable. Also. Listen, this is a tampering league. Everybody does everything through back channels. You should have already known whether or not you could get some of these guys broken free.
- [11:14]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, we didn't do our due diligence on that.
- [11:17]
Howard Beck
Yeah. So to. To do this.
- [11:19]
Logan Murdoch
This is elementary shit, though. That's the thing.
- [11:22]
Howard Beck
It. It all just looks really clumsy and embarrassing, frankly.
- [11:27]
Logan Murdoch
Well, I. What does this do for. I mean, if you're a player, Roger. Right. If you're Jalen Brunson, you are Mikhail Bridges, who was in line for an extension at some point. Every day that this goes on, it feels like you get a little bit more antsy about where things stand, because the thing that Tibbs brought that up until this point, Leon Rose has bought is stability. And we don't have all the answers yet, but every day that goes by, that's that that stability is cracking and that foundation is cracking, and you're starting to get antsy. And now we're going to get into the draft, and now we're going to get into the off season in free agency where we have to, you know, pitch people on, you know, like I said, Mikhail Bridges for an extension. You're having to present yourself as a functioning organization after years and years of dysfunction. You're a player. Are you Nervous right now? Are you, like, what the hell are you. Are, you know, are you enjoying your vacation?
- [12:29]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, right now, bro. I'm. I'm on a beach somewhere, you know, just hanging out with the people that I did not get to spend enough time with during the season.
- [12:39]
Logan Murdoch
You're doing what Howard did last night?
- [12:40]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm not really concerned with that. I think, you know, for the most part, an extension is not going to be affected by the coach like you're going to. You know, I think those are independent of each other. I would just say, though, the longer. The longer it drags on, you know, the more you get a sense as a player of instability and, you know, the more questions you have to answer in regards to it, obviously, the more it. The more it becomes, you know, kind of forefront in your mind. And the stability word is critical, man. Like, I. It's just a critical component of success is having stability. And even, you know, as a pro, there weren't a lot of things that I felt like were fair for me to ask of an organization all the time. Like, because every organization is run differently, and philosophically, people have, you know, different things. But what I did think was fair to ask of an organization and what I saw in organizations when I could control it was stability. Like when I signed places because the few and rare opportunities I had to sign contracts, yeah, sure, money was a factor, don't get me wrong. But stability was really important. At least it was a priority for me. And when you don't have that, you know, it just sucks. It makes your work. It makes your work life, you know, less enjoyable than it should be.
- [14:06]
Logan Murdoch
Whenever I think about this and whenever there's dysfunction, it feels like even in the coverage of what's going on right now, it seems to veer less on the plate of Leon Rose and more on the plate of James Dolan.
- [14:19]
Zach Lowe
And.
- [14:22]
Logan Murdoch
How much of a. Of a. How much of a hand do you think that he would have in this? Just as earlier as we are right now. Right. Like, because it feels like because of the historic dysfunction that we've had under Dolan and we've seen under Dolan with the Knicks, it seems like, you know, that throws a little shade on to Leon Rose, and it kind of gives a shield to him. Does Leon Rose deserve that shield at this point? Does he deserve the benefit of the doubt because of Dolan's action over the last few decades?
- [14:54]
Howard Beck
Leon Rose, in his front office deserve the benefit of the doubt because of everything they've done for the last Five years. This has been the period, longest period of stability and competency and success that they've had in a very long time. And I think Leon Rose deserves a ton of credit for that. I. I see what's going, or I look at what's going on over the last week or so, the Tibbs firing, this very haphazard search for his successor. I look at it all and yes, it does kind of remind me of the bad old times of, you know, 2000 through 2019 or into 2020 before they hired Leon Rose. This is feeling a little bit too much like the old Knicks, but I'm trying to reserve judgment because there's a scenario here where they land on whoever their coach is going to be, that person comes in, does as good or maybe even a better job than Tibbs did. With a team that's stocked with a lot of good talent. They make a couple of tweaks to the bench to get a little more depth. Maybe the next coach plays the bench a little bit more, and they might just be fine. Like, there's a scenario here where everything is just fine and all of this is just a weird blip. But I do think this is like a fragile moment for the franchise because while I'm not ready to just jump headlong into this is all Dolan, Dolan fire Tibbs. Dolan's the one behind all this clumsy search or whatever, all of that is possible, but we don't know yet. And I think people, it's easy just to go straight to that and say, well, this must just be Dolan's back to his battled ways and, you know, to the point that, that some others out there have made like, Dolan was really busy with the sphere for a while, and maybe that's why he was so hands off. And now that the sphere is up and running and succeeding like he's. He's back to micromanaging the Knicks. Like, it's a fun theory. It tracks chronologically. I don't know. It's interesting. I'll just say that. Let's see how the rest of this coaching search unfolds, who they land on. Let's see if there's any other indications of the owner possibly meddling in other stuff. It feels like that might be the case. But like I say, I think people are understandably jumping to that conclusion because of the past. I'm not ready to go there yet. Let's see where this. Let's see where this goes. But I do think it's a delicate time because if he is meddling again in the way he used to. And if all of this is him, that's a really bad sign for Leon Rose. It's a really bad sign for the franchise in general.
- [17:27]
Logan Murdoch
What's the best for all our Knicks fans, including the one we love the most? What's the best case scenario for this summer and what's the worst case scenario for this summer? Howard? Becky.
- [17:41]
Howard Beck
The best case scenario is kind of more than what's less than 1 I just outlined. The best case scenario is you hire. Maybe it's a Taylor Jenkins, a Mike Brown, somebody who's accomplished, who's been around, who you know is a really solid coach who's going to come in and do at least just as good a job as Tibbs did, or maybe even better. There are plenty of good coaches available out there who are not under contract. You could hire. Yeah, so you hire, you hire somebody, they come in, they just, they just do the job. The same team comes back pretty much, you add a couple of pieces, you get it, you add to your bench depth, and you make another deep playoff run next spring. Like there's, there's your best case scenario. I mean, is there a, is there a finals run in them? Possibly. Let's see what they do with, with the roster because I think they, they still need some upgrades there too. Nothing dramatic, but, but they could use some, some obviously some depth. The worst case scenario is this coaching search drags on even longer. They, you know, I mean, they could hire somebody who doesn't fit. That's, that's one possibility. I think the bigger concern, if you're asking me for like, just like fantastical worst case scenarios, is there a scenario here where things get really off the rails and the players lose faith and Jalen Brunson asks out, or the new coach doesn't want to keep Rick Brunson on staff or something, or there's some fight about that because like, by the way, that's looming there too. Like, I don't know which of Tibbs, his staff is back, but I think Rick Brunson is almost an automatic. Right. So what's that?
- [19:16]
Logan Murdoch
I was just thinking, is there a scenario when, if Rick Brunson is the coach.
- [19:21]
Howard Beck
No, I don't think so.
- [19:23]
Logan Murdoch
Okay. Okay. I mean, I mean, I'm just saying he does wield a lot of influence on that staff.
- [19:29]
Howard Beck
Who knows?
- [19:31]
Logan Murdoch
I mean, could, I don't know. I don't know, like, if I don't know the dynamic in that way. But like, I mean, shoot, you know, big vex in my backyard. And I know that's a Vivekian move and you know, it seems dysfunctional. And hey, he's a, he is a person that's been on that staff for a long time and, or not for a long time, but he has influence over the team's best player. And hey, I do remember that one, that one skirmish that happened with Dante DiVincenzo and the bench and that was believe that Dante diverting Joe, he went and looked towards Rick Munson was like, this is all on you. All this is on you.
- [20:03]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [20:03]
Logan Murdoch
And it's just to show the influence that he will. So that's why I asked the question.
- [20:07]
Howard Beck
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. But, but I think that the worst case scenario is, is more about do the players still believe in what the franchise is doing and does Jalen Brunson specifically? And you know, obviously Jalen Brunson is really, really close to Leon Rose. So but he was also really tight with Tibbs and I can't imagine this has gone over well with him, any of this. So that's, that's, you know, that's, that's the thing I would keep an eye on.
- [20:34]
Logan Murdoch
Okay. All right, let's take a break and we're going to talk about one Kevin Durant. The NBA Finals are here and it's all come down to this. And fanduels turning the excitement up even more with an all customer profit boost for every game of the series. As if you needed another reason to root for a game 7. Use your profit boost to bet on which team will win, who's going to drop 30 and who will build a parlay for a shot in an even bigger payday. If your bet wins, you'll win even bigger and then you can do it all again the next game. If you don't already have FanDuel. It's not too late to get in on the action. Just visit FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to join today. That's FanDuel.com Ringer NBA to claim your profit boost for each and every game this NBA Finals. Make every Moment more with FanDuel. Official sports betting partner in the NBA must be 21 years and older in select states for 18 and older and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued is non withdrawable profit boost. Token restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager account. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-gambler or visit rg-help.com and we are back. I know I said we were talking about Kevin Durant, but I saw on the ticker that Russell Westbrook is declining his option with the Nuggets player option. He's going to be a free agent.
- [21:52]
Zach Lowe
Show us the money.
- [21:56]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, you want that? You want the.
- [21:59]
Zach Lowe
Show us the money.
- [22:00]
Logan Murdoch
You want the commission on a. On a vet minimum? Roger, you wouldn't mind that?
- [22:06]
Zach Lowe
What? The commission. I'll take the commission. On a vet minimum.
- [22:09]
Logan Murdoch
On a vet minimum? Why not?
- [22:10]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, that boy's day. Listen. Yeah, whatever. Let's go. Let's go to Kevin Durant. Let's go, man. We're not staying.
- [22:16]
Logan Murdoch
You don't want to talk about. You don't want to talk about Russ?
- [22:18]
Zach Lowe
No, not today.
- [22:19]
Howard Beck
Nothing.
- [22:19]
Logan Murdoch
That's it. Okay. All right. All right.
- [22:21]
Howard Beck
Where's. Where's Rush playing next season, Raja?
- [22:24]
Zach Lowe
I have no idea.
- [22:25]
Logan Murdoch
I.
- [22:26]
Zach Lowe
Hey, I don't know. Yeah, vet minimum. I mean, he play a lot of places.
- [22:36]
Logan Murdoch
I don't know. That might be it for him.
- [22:39]
Zach Lowe
Not a chance. Okay, so, so, so, so Russ declines his Fett. I mean, declines his option without knowing that there's a market for him? Not a chance.
- [22:52]
Logan Murdoch
Okay, we'll see. I don't know. We'll see.
- [22:56]
Zach Lowe
Clip. I clip it. If I'm wrong, right here I am.
- [23:00]
Logan Murdoch
Okay. Hey, Cliff, clip that for our Worst Takes Episode. Just in case. Just in case we need to do it.
- [23:07]
Zach Lowe
Just in case I'm not running.
- [23:08]
Logan Murdoch
Just in case. You know what I mean? All right, all right.
- [23:10]
Zach Lowe
I'm not telling you he's going to win a championship next year, but, like, I. Yeah, I can't imagine that he declines his option not knowing that he. That there's going to be a market for.
- [23:19]
Raja Bell
I can't.
- [23:19]
Zach Lowe
Can't imagine.
- [23:21]
Logan Murdoch
Okay, let's get to Kevin Durant, who has been a polarizing figure throughout the time of this podcast. So Brian Wi and Shams, friends of the show, say that he is going to get traded around the draft and it's going to happen really fast. There's been whispers about him going to the Spurs. There's also been whispers around the league. You know, Minnesota might be kicking the tires. There's always, you know, the Rockets were in the sweepstakes for a time during the season and linked to them and so many different things. Howard, where do, in your mind do the Kevin Durant sweepstakes? Where are they at this point? Not where is he going, but where are they at this point? And what does that say about Kevin and where he is in his career?
- [24:18]
Howard Beck
So we're taping this on June 13th. Right. We're a couple weeks out from the draft, a few weeks out from free agency. Every team in the NBA, aside from the two who are playing right now, can engage in trade talks and can make trades. I'm not saying I expected necessarily a trade to have happened by now. I do think it's interesting that we're this deep and this applies to the Giannis thing too, that we're this deep in the summer or this deep into the off season for most teams and we do not have really a good read on the situation, either of the situations. But talking about Durant for now, like, I think I don't want to read too much into this, but this idea they're going to trade him by draft night, it suggests a certain urgency by the Suns or maybe it suggests a certain desire by the Suns to create urgency because they're trying to create the market. And the reason I think that that is one possible read of this is because Kevin Durant is 37 years old in September. He's a few years removed or several years removed now from the Achilles and he's recovered better than anybody I think in NBA history has recovered from an Achilles, especially at his age. But he is 37 in September and he's on a one year contract and he might want an extension. And whoever's trading for him, you're not trading for prime Kevin Durant. You're trading for end of his career last year or two or three at most years of his career. And he's a rental. And you're not bringing him in as a franchise savior. You're not bringing him as the franchise cornerstone. You're bringing him in as a complimentary star. So that limits it to teams that already have a star or two and think they're one Kevin Durant away from a championship. And so this, the pool of teams that, that, that fit that description is pretty small. I also think that, you know, this is not, this is not, you know, a few years ago when Matt Ishbia was willing to trade every single pick he had in every single swap he had, plus Cam Johnson and Mikhail Bridges to get Kevin Durant, the team trading for him now trading for a 37 year old Kevin Durant on an expiring contract post Achilles and for as a rental for a year or two is not going to want to give up that much. And yet the Suns are in a position where they're at least partially trying to save face in all this. Like, you know, you're not recouping all those picks. But. But you need to make a respectable deal. So there's a. I think there's a huge gap here between the acquiring team and the trading team, whoever the acquiring team is, because I don't think any team is going to want to give up a ton for Durant for this version of Durant at this stage of his career. So I think this is a really difficult. I think there are plenty of teams that want him, but I think the market for him is soft in the sense of, like, I don't think teams are going to want to trade a ton of assets to get him, and I think that makes it really tough to make a deal, and it's why I could be wrong, but I'm skeptical that anything's getting done by or on draft night.
- [27:24]
Logan Murdoch
The clear answer here is to just trade, just trade the farm and start from scratch. You need draft picks, man. Like, do whatever you can do at this point to get draft picks and accumulate that and build from the ground up. I mean, this roster is what it is. You've been around the league in. In and around front offices. And also as a player, could you speak to the ego that's probably. That is with teams and front offices that want. Even. That want to win at all costs, but aren't going through the specific processes to actually do that, but they still want to do it. Like, how do they. How do they. How do they reconcile their need to win with the. With the patience that it takes to actually do it?
- [28:19]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I don't know, dude. Like that. I think that's. Each. Each case would have a different answer as to, you know, how someone. How someone approaches that. The better teams or the better run organizations do it less with ego and more with just a level of business acumen and understanding of kind of, you know, where you are and what needs to be done. Take. Take the feelings, you know, out of it. You know, Matt. Matt Ishby is maybe a little different just because of the way he came in and how quickly things were moving. But, you know, if you were a team like the Heat, who's always kind of right around it, who's always really competitive, you know, I kind of maybe understand that a little bit more, you know, and even we've had the conversation about them kind of needing to, at least in my estimation, you know, pivot and. And. And get out of that middle area, if you will. But, like, you're always around it in a way that I kind of understand. The Suns aren't always around it. In that way, or at least lately haven't been. So I think there should be a little bit more clarity in terms of what needs to be done. Removing the ego from the situation and approaching it as a business. I don't. I. I don't know if I answered your question, Logan, because it's. It's. Everybody's different in that man, I think. But the best, you know, the best. The best ones to do it take. They take the ego out. Like, this can't be about the ego. It's got to be about what's best for the franchise, the future of the franchise. You got to approach it like a sound business person.
- [29:52]
Logan Murdoch
Do you think Phoenix can handle. If you just tell Phoenix, like, hey, what in the. In the community, hey, we're. We're. We. We tried our best. Yeah, we did what we needed to do, and we need to just pivot right now and look, I'd be bad for a couple years, but, you know, that's what it is.
- [30:07]
Zach Lowe
You're bad anyway. I mean, you're no fucking good right now. So, like, what are we talking about? Like, the. Yeah, no. Will the community love. You know, some of them are going to. It's.
- [30:20]
Howard Beck
This is.
- [30:20]
Zach Lowe
Every decision that's made is going to fall into this, right? Some people are going to love it, some people are going to hate it, right? And then we're going to see where the chips fall at the end of it as to what the final judgment on it's going to be. This is no different. Some people would be like, yeah, dude, we had you, man. We weren't going anywhere with this. We unders. Some people are going to be like, no, you can't get rid of Devin Booker. He's homegrown. It's debooked. Like, some people are going to do that. And then the bottom line is, can you execute in a way that moving forward puts you in a better position? So in like, three, four years, everyone's sitting there saying, hey, guys, guess what? It worked. And if you can do that, then you're doing your job. But, like, I'd argue it's not like you're tearing down something that is viable and winning games, you're not.
- [31:03]
Logan Murdoch
It's pretty depressing. I mean, when I went out there in April, it was. And I wrote about it for the ringer guys, go check out that piece. It felt pretty. Just sad, you know, all the way around. Not only from, you know, in the building, but outside. If you look at the fan base, like, they knew it was more like, damn, how did this not work out? And we're talking about Kevin Durant, Howard. They still got to trade Bradley Beal somehow, right? They still got to figure out how to get up off of that contract. This is a really, this is going to be a really strenuous summer for the Suns. But I want to get back to Kevin really quickly. Something that we talked about yesterday on the phone was KD's his, his decision not to want to go to Golden State right in the, in the trade deadline. And we understand why, right? Like, just don't want to go back to, you know, that environment. He knows it well, doesn't want to necessarily. Also wanted to leave in the off season. I think that was, I think that was just him saying that. I, I don't think I. And my heart of hearts don't think he wants to come back for a variety of reasons, including just, you know, the, how he left the warriors. It left a bad taste in his mouth. But more than anything, if he would have gone to the warriors, it feels like he would have gotten everything he would have wanted. Right? He would have gotten the extension. He would have gotten, you know, the built in love, like, similar to like how LeBron gets where he can get paid, you know, because he's going to be an institutionary piece in that organization wherever he goes now, he's not necessarily going to have that. Right. It's like, how does he navigate a new place where he is this nomadic figure, but he doesn't really have any ties to any organization he goes to and they don't have any incentive to really take care of him at this age. So, like, how does he navigate that?
- [32:52]
Howard Beck
Well, it's a great question because it also goes back into why I think a trade is so difficult. It's the, it's the last piece of this that I didn't mention before, which is you have to have a team that wants him, that thinks they're one Kevin Durant away from a title, that has the assets, whatever those assets are, and can make that deal and might be willing to extend him. And oh, by the way, does Kevin Durant want to be there? Because even though he doesn't have the ability to thwart a trade, he doesn't, there's no, no trade clause or anything. But you're not going to trade for a guy if he doesn't want to be there, right? Like the warriors decided not to trade for him because they found out he didn't want to be there. Okay, I'm not saying that that's going to happen with another team. But like, you know, because there were specific baggage related to the warriors, but Kevin Durant has to want to be on your team. So that is one more complicating factor as, as the Suns are trying to figure out where to send him. And that goes to what does Kevin Durant want at this stage? And I think that's been one of like the, the more difficult kind of parlor games of the last several years is as Kevin Durant goes to Brooklyn with Kyrie, things don't go the way, you know, that anybody wanted there. He asked out, you know, he demands a trade, the Nets decide not to trade him, then he demands a trade again and they finally do trade him to Phoenix and it hasn't gone well there. And I'm not saying that's all on Kevin Durant. I'm just saying after making all the moves and some of the power moves, frankly that he's made, like, what does he want at this stage? And I think that that's, that's the thing that everybody has to try to ascertain, you know, what does Kevin Durant want in this final stage of his career. And you know, I'm sure he's going to say, you know, it's actually, I don't want to say it. I'll take that back. He has said, and including said to me earlier this season when I asked him about it, like, championships are so hard to get that you have to understand at a certain point, especially after you won a couple, that it can't just be like, just championships or bust. Like, you know, there's a little bit of like the joy is in the journey kind of approach for him. And I think he'll, if he's just happy playing basketball somewhere with teammates that he's enjoying being around and is competing at a high level and they have a chance to make a run. Sure. But I don't think he's going to be like some championship or bust ring chasing kind of player. I don't think that's who, that's not the way he carries himself. And I don't think it's what he's about right now. And you have that luxury when you have won a couple of championships. But he's also not going to want to, you know, go play for some lottery team. Of course. So. But what does he want? What, like what, what kind of role does he think he wants to play? What kind of stars does he want to be with? What kind of coaches he want to be with? Logan's Got a rye grin on his face because I think he's got ideas. But like, I just, I think it's. I don't know what the answer to those questions are, but I think that they will help guide where this ultimately goes.
- [35:49]
Logan Murdoch
I have a smile on my face because that's been the eternal question of Kevin Durant's career is what the hell do you want? What do you want? You know, what will fulfill you? All of that. It's just a fascinating, just person and player and all these things. I just, I don't know what's going to happen. Howard. What is like, how are we going to look back on this guy, man? Because he's this, he's obviously a player that at his highest was one of the defining players of his generation and you know, at times was the best player of his generation, weirdly. And now he's just going to. This, this, this, this ending doesn't seem like it's supposed to happen for a player of his magnitude.
- [36:31]
Howard Beck
Some people balk at this construction, but like Kevin Durant at, at minimum is right after Steph. And LeBron is the defining players of this era, right? Stephen LeBron have more rings, they have bigger followings in some regard. They've had, you know, a little bit less, maybe a little less drama around them. Although LeBron's generated plenty of that too. I think the complication for Kevin Durant is, yeah, this back part of the career where, you know, he chose to leave Golden State despite having won back to back championships and back to back finals MVPs and, and fitting in really nicely. Like, I know there was a lot of personality stuff where we could say like he didn't fit and he and Draymond, you know, had their, their tensions and I think Kevin Durant and Kerr maybe, or the organization, but he had success, the most success he's had and he chose to leave it. And then the place he chose to go to Brooklyn didn't work out the way he wanted to and he chose to leave there. And I, so I think it's fair for people to kind of critique the back end of his career where, you know, you walked away from the most successful situation you've ever been in and now you're, you're just kind of wandering the desert a little bit like literally in Arizona. I. And I'm listen the details fade away. When we talk about legacies, like most of the, like we scroll through the list of like all time greats in the NBA, you know, we rarely start talking about like, oh, what the guy did in the last three or four years of his career or, or this thing that happened early on with this battle with this coach or what. We don't talk about this stuff. We just say like, you know, how many All NBAs, how many All Stars, how many championships, how many MVPs, how many points? Where did he rank on all these all time lists? How awesome was he to watch? That should probably be the top of the list. How incredible of a player he was, was he? And I think with Kevin Durant, eventually all the stuff that we are talking about right now with this kind of just messy last several years, it will fade a little bit. We'll, we'll focus more on just like the greatness of Kevin Durant. But for right now, those things still matter because there's still one more chapter here to be written and it's, it's not clear what it is.
- [38:45]
Logan Murdoch
What do you think we're, how do you think we're going to look back on Katie Raja?
- [38:50]
Zach Lowe
If. I know. I don't know. I mean, he's, but look, Katie's a great, a great player, man. Like, he's, he was or is a, you know, like an enigma to some degree, right? Like, you know, I think it's going to be hard for people to separate like, who he is as like a person and as a, as a quote unquote, like competitor. Like a lot of people want you to, they define your competitive spirit by the way they define like, by what they want you to be like, if that makes sense. I don't know if I'm making that clear, but like a Kevin Durant is a competitor of the highest sorts because he doesn't seek the same things every time there's a transaction made that, that a fan wants him to see. Like, I think it's going to be hard for people to separate the player from some of those decisions, if that makes sense. But as a player, fantastic. Like unicorns. Before we started calling people unicorns, when he came into the league, the things he could do with a basketball at the size, length, skill combination, absolutely incredible. One of the best scorers ever, you know, a champion, you know, whether you agree with how he got him or not, who gives a shit? I don't know how people are going to see Kevin Durant when it's all said and done, but I know those things are true. Like, and I use, I use enigma because, you know, like, look, man, like, he is a little weird, right? Like, you know him better than me, Logan. I mean, I say that Affectionately. I don't think that's a bad thing. He just kind of marches to the beat of his own shit.
- [40:26]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I don't really.
- [40:27]
Zach Lowe
I don't really have a problem with that. Like, personally, I know how we want our stars to act. I know how we, you know, as a media cover them and as a fan base, you know, would like to see them all the time. And. And some people conform to that. Some people don't even have to conform to it because it's just who they are. Some people aren't that. And that's okay.
- [40:47]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. It's interesting that what. When Howard said what he said just about, you know, Kevin just being. You said, he goes barges to the beat of his own drum. Roger. But Howard was. Was just talking about, like, just how he. He purports himself. He's definitely a guy that is, like, leans into being that nomad of a person just in all ways. Right. Like, I remember I talked to him in Phoenix. When he first got there, he was like, yeah, the wind just blew me here. You know, I'm just. I'm in Phoenix now, and I'm doing that. And I think it's something that's just been like that since his childhood. And if he's okay with that, then that's pretty much the only thing that matters. It just seems like. Because I remember I asked him a question, this is when he was in Brooklyn, and I asked him, like, yo, man, how do you feel that? Like, you might not even, you know, when it's all said and done, you know, you might not be a part of such and such organizations, right? Like, you. You might not be in the fabric of it because you've moved around so much and you've had weird endings. And he said, no, man, I'm a part of every single franchise that I've. That I've played for. You know, I'm getting my jersey retired by the Warriors. The. The. The Thunder, he said at the time, the Nets, which was hilarious and probably will not happen, but he kind of. He's kind of always been this way. And when I think about, you know, the competitiveness part, he is a guy that loves basketball, and I'm not saying he doesn't love winning. He loves the art of just playing basketball and being on the floor. Roger, you're perking your ears. You feel what I'm saying, though? Like, he loves the art of basketball as a means of. Of a sport and not. And whatever it takes him is where it takes them. It's not about being the greatest.
- [42:38]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, that's. You know, it's interesting that you said that because. And it's a great point. It's where I was going to go. It's what he strikes me as. He's used the term art before. I've heard him speak of it in terms of art and craft. Him and Kyrie both, right now, they are different, but. But they both talk about the craft and the art of it. And specific to kd, I mean, he carries himself in a way that at least I think artists carry themselves. I don't know too many artists, like, they. At least they project to me, just kind of flexible, go with the flow. I, you know, I set up shop. I see beauty in this. They could, you know, and. And I can do this over here. And my canvas is, you know, they just kind of Boris Dio energy, kd, real free spirits. Boris is an artist. Like, trust me. Like, this is deep, though. But Boris. Boris was into photography. Like, Boris is a real artist. Like, he sees the beauty and things in a way that don't, like, it's just not that serious all the time to him. Right? Like, when he's out there, he's trying to win and he wants to get a championship and he has them, but, like, he's just got, you know, he's more evolved. Like, he's got more shit going on, bro. That's not, like, what defines him as a human being. And KD kind of strikes me as that. And specific to basketball, um, you know, he is your.
- [43:59]
Logan Murdoch
Your.
- [43:59]
Zach Lowe
Your Picasso's, your. Your Van Gogh, your. Your. You know, I don't. I don't. I don't know a ton of artists and shit like that, but he's. He's at the highest level of that craft, man. Like, he.
- [44:10]
Logan Murdoch
He.
- [44:11]
Zach Lowe
He does not have to. He can be marching to the beat of his own drum.
- [44:16]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. Amongst.
- [44:18]
Zach Lowe
Amongst a league full of phenomenal players, some more accomplished than him in the in the ring category. Walk into a gym with them and watch who they defer to.
- [44:28]
Logan Murdoch
You know what's crazy you said that, Raja? Because another quote that he said when he was in Brooklyn when I talked to him was like, maybe I'm not in the top 10, but if we had a pickup of, like, the top 10 best players, tell me motherfuckers ain't gonna pick me.
- [44:42]
Zach Lowe
No, but, like, that's the freedom that comes with being that. That's the freedom that you see of a dude just saying, hey, man, I'm in Phoenix for a while, dude. Like, you know, and Again, I'm not saying that. I always agree with that. When. When some of these places are counting on you to be the franchise, right? Like, I don't know that that necessarily fits the bill of what they need, but I don't. I'm not mad at you for being that dude, man. I'm not. That's who you are. I felt the most free as a player, and I felt I could be the best when people just let me be me. When people tried to stop me from being who I was, good, bad, or indifferent. Right? If it's so bad you don't want me, cut me. Don't have me here, but don't have me here and ask me to be somebody I'm not.
- [45:24]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. Yeah. That was real Cliff squad. What up, Cliff? I just. Before we get to bailbag, I got some to. I got. I got some to get off my chest with you, my guy.
- [45:37]
Raja Bell
What's going on?
- [45:38]
Logan Murdoch
You know what I'm talking about, bro. I don't. We kind of referenced it in the last pod when you said Paul George for KD was good to KD to Philly.
- [45:49]
Raja Bell
Yeah.
- [45:49]
Logan Murdoch
What the fuck? I thought you were just on the PG bandwagon. You were like, it's all good. We're gonna. He did the pod with. With. Was it with Wallow and them and Gilly and it's all good now. And then you just go switch sides right now, like, what's going on?
- [46:06]
Raja Bell
I didn't switch sides. I didn't.
- [46:07]
Logan Murdoch
I didn't switch sides right now.
- [46:08]
Raja Bell
I didn't switch sides. The bandwagon is a little flimsy, that's all. So therefore I can jump off that bandwagon. We see some trouble lying ahead. So I would take. I will happily jump on the KD bandwagon because that bandwagon's been pretty solid. It has a good foundation. The wheels are still spinning. It's oiled up a little bit. You know what I'm saying? We still moving?
- [46:26]
Logan Murdoch
Even after we. Even after the real philosophical, wax poetic conversation we just had, you still want KD on the squad? You down with that? You down with that?
- [46:35]
Raja Bell
If we got a two year rental of Kevin Durant and we could pair him up with Joel Embiid and Maxi and the young guys and, you know, whoever else we might be able to draft. Absolutely. I would do that in the heartbeat over having Paul George's contract. Like, it's not even. That's a no brainer to me. Like, I would. Absolutely. 100%. Howard. Howard, you feel me on this is that. Am I speaking facts here?
- [46:57]
Howard Beck
Nah. Yeah, you are.
- [46:58]
Raja Bell
Yeah, like that's not, that's a no.
- [46:59]
Howard Beck
I'm not a Sixer fan. So like, you know, I don't have an investment in any version of this team. I can just sit here and say like, just rip out whatever you got to rip out just to like, you know, get your, your, your. Just to get things stabilized in a better direction. But to Logan's point, Cliff, I mean.
- [47:17]
Raja Bell
You were kind of swee yo. I didn't switch sides like I said.
- [47:23]
Logan Murdoch
All right, Cliff.
- [47:24]
Raja Bell
Yeah.
- [47:25]
Logan Murdoch
What we got on the mailbag?
- [47:26]
Raja Bell
G. The mailbag. All right, this first one, you're gonna love this question. This is patience from Andrew. Why do all the analysts and potters, including Hereinger, laugh a little when they talk about the very real potential of the Pacers winning it all? I can't. I think his name is the dis fan on Blue Sky Howard. He probably follows you. So. Yeah, that's a guy's question.
- [47:48]
Zach Lowe
Did he say they laugh at it?
- [47:50]
Raja Bell
Yeah, yeah, I'll read it again. Why do all the analysts and potters, including at the ringer, laugh a little when they talk about the very real potential of the Pacers winning it all?
- [48:00]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I don't think I ever laughed at it. I did pick Oklahoma in five. Had sound reasons, at least in my opinion, and a season's body's worth of work to go off of. The Pacers are a really good team. I mean, it's too. It's already 12:54. I'm not going to go into all of the reasons why they're doing what they're doing in this series. Right. This pod was about other stuff, but they're a good team, I don't think. I mean, I didn't laugh at it. I mean I. They were a heavy underdog coming in for a lot of reasons.
- [48:33]
Howard Beck
This is. These kind of questions always kind of drive me crazy a little bit. Like, no, I appreciate the listener asking and like, I'll do my best to kind of like, I think explain what I think he's getting at. But like the as don't ask me to explain the reactions or takes or whatever of other people. If like, if we, if we laugh. If you heard us on the last pod go, oh, the Pacers winning the championship. Hahaha. Or whatever. Like I don't know what he's talking about but like I don't know that's even happened. I'm not aware of it. I don't know what he's referring to or who he's referring to. But if it's happened, if we did it, then you can ask us why we did it. If somebody else did it, like, what the. I don't, I'm not in anybody else's head. I'm not responsible for anybody else's takes, laughter or tears. I do think what he's getting at is like, there's probably kind of this sense of like, holy crap, it's two to one as we tape this game four tonight. There's a very real possibility that I think nobody contemplated other than probably the Pacers themselves, right? Like this is going to, if they pull this off, go down as one of the all time great upsets and that's awesome. And we will all, you know, praise them to the high heavens for doing it. And even if they don't win the series, I mean, the Pacers have done nothing but gain immense respect from everyone around the league in media, fans, everybody, by what they've accomplished. And even by getting to this point and being up 2:1 on a team that by all objective measures had more talent and depth. Like, it's, it wasn't supposed to unfold this way. That's the beauty of sports. No one's going to be laughing at that. We look at that and say like, this is why we watch, because it's fun, because it's interesting and because it's not predictable and because a team sometimes is just better than the sum of its parts and what the Pacers are doing is awesome. So, yeah, I don't, I don't know what the listeners is specifically referring to other than like, people didn't see this coming. But I, No1. I don't think that's a negative. I think that's just the reality of, you know, you sometimes you, you, you look, you analyze the best you can and in this case like the whole world thought it was thunder in five or six and the paces are completely upending expectations. Like, that's cool, that's great.
- [50:41]
Logan Murdoch
So anyway, I apologize for picking a 68 win team to win in five. I apologize.
- [50:49]
Raja Bell
Wait, but did you laugh at the Pacers though? Like, what do you. That's, that's what we get now here.
- [50:53]
Logan Murdoch
Well, I did say that they need Jesus Christ and or Caitlin Clark to win this series.
- [51:02]
Howard Beck
You were just trying to find the shortest way possible to answer the entrance survey questions that our editor sent us. That was, that was just you being.
- [51:09]
Logan Murdoch
To be fair. To be fair, Yes. I was in the. On deadline, so, okay, boom. Nobody asked for it. I'mma pull a roger and just give it to him anyway. Like, when they give out these interest surveys, typically writers are on deadline. And I was on deadline on a story that was, like, coming out the next day, and they were like, hey, here's an interest survey. So I said it. I'm just going to write whatever is on my mind and that in the shortest way possible to get who among us hasn't done it. Right.
- [51:37]
Howard Beck
Like, I'm guilty.
- [51:39]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, man. You just kind of give Raja entrance survey. It might be. Fuck off. And then, you know that's going to get published. So, like, you know.
- [51:48]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, or.
- [51:48]
Logan Murdoch
It was a good answer.
- [51:49]
Howard Beck
It was a good answer, Logan. I. I enjoyed it.
- [51:52]
Logan Murdoch
Thank you, buddy. But I also did say that the paces were going to catch OKC slipping and win game one. I was very happy with that.
- [52:00]
Raja Bell
You know, here you go.
- [52:01]
Logan Murdoch
We're here. Who cares? Raj, any thoughts?
- [52:04]
Zach Lowe
Nope.
- [52:06]
Raja Bell
All right, let's do this last. Let's do this last one so Raj can hear. Let's get this last one.
- [52:11]
Logan Murdoch
I just checked out 10 minutes ago. No good.
- [52:13]
Zach Lowe
I mean, I answered it. I didn't laugh at it. It picked OKC for various reasons. Indiana's doing a great job.
- [52:20]
Raja Bell
Let's get Raj to South Beach.
- [52:22]
Logan Murdoch
All right.
- [52:22]
Raja Bell
Let's get this last one.
- [52:23]
Logan Murdoch
South beach, bro.
- [52:24]
Raja Bell
Let's get you the something.
- [52:26]
Logan Murdoch
Hold on.
- [52:27]
Zach Lowe
I'm going to watch mahi.
- [52:28]
Logan Murdoch
How was mahi fishing? Was it good?
- [52:31]
Zach Lowe
Did not get to. That's a long. So fucking fuck you guys are listening. Went to the Gulf of Mexico when. When my boys were probably. My two older boys were probably 7 and 6 in Venice, tuna fishing off of the oil rigs. I think it's like 30 miles out into the Gulf, right? Beautiful day, flat water. We're out there catching. Caught probably eight yellow fin, too. Like, beautiful day, man. Caught a, like a 350 pound blue marlin right next to the boat. It was everything.
- [53:03]
Logan Murdoch
God damn.
- [53:04]
Zach Lowe
We stayed out on that water probably 30 minutes past when we should have been there, because I was fighting that marlin. So a cold front had pushed in. And when we went back, I literally thought we were going to die. It's the one time in my life I was like. I put. I put my family in, like, a really fucked up spot. Like, thought we were going to die. The boat was. The only thing that saved me was I looked at the captain and his mate who could barely hang on to the boat, and they weren't panicking, right? So I'm looking. I got my dad, I got my Two boys, we're all huddled in the. In the bottom of the boat, like, hugged up, just hoping so we get back to land. And I say all that to say that I've been scarred about being on boats in storms. So when we woke up the other morning at 4, you know, we were going to ride down to Isla Morada and fish, but it said that storms were coming in at 9 and 10. And so my dad and I were like, yo, man, do we get on this boat at 6:30? We're offshore, probably about 10, 12 miles. There are fucking storms in the area. And both of us were like, fuck that. So. So we didn't go.
- [54:04]
Logan Murdoch
It's a good call.
- [54:05]
Zach Lowe
Having said that, we Woke up at 11, everybody going about their day. The store. The storms had broken apart and it was a beautiful day fishing in Islamorada. And we missed it. So that's my story.
- [54:15]
Logan Murdoch
I'm sorry, buddy.
- [54:16]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, it's okay. So I listen, you give me the choice of. Of a. Like, you gotta pick. You got 50.
- [54:22]
Logan Murdoch
Life or death. You go pick life.
- [54:24]
Zach Lowe
I'm standing on this shore, dog. I'm not going out.
- [54:26]
Logan Murdoch
All right? Respect.
- [54:28]
Raja Bell
All right, let's shut it down with this one. The Carlisle resume. This is from. I hope I'm saying this right. Reza Tahiri. So 2002 Pistons Coach of the Year Eastern Conference Finals 2003 Pacers Eastern Conference Finals 2011 Mavs Champion 2024 Pacers Eastern Conference Finals 2025 Pacers possible champion. Where does this 25 year run put Rick Carlisle in the coaching pantheon? Riley, Auerbeck, Jackson, Pop, have all. Have all the rings. Would you put Carlisle in the Lenny Wilkins tier? It's hard to make this list when some coaches built up different teams to success and others had a dynasty with a single franchise their entire career. Pop, Spo, Kerr and Daly are in their own tier. Honestly, Auerbach should be in this tier, too. But I don't want anyone to get fired. Having a loyal superstar and maintaining a team around him is a different coaching challenge than what Riley, Lenny and Carlisle have done. I will always put Pat Riley above Phil Jackson. Reza, Sacramento Howard, Reza, Raza, Rizza Raza, Shar.
- [55:29]
Logan Murdoch
Yo. Shout out Sacto.
- [55:32]
Howard Beck
What Carlisle has done is spectacular when you know whether they win the championship or not. And the interesting thing too is like, if you go back and you look what. What Carlisle did with the Pistons, like, he. He had a great run there. He got fired right before they hired Larry Brown. And then they trade for Rasheed Wallace. They go and they win. A championship. But, like, that.
- [55:51]
Zach Lowe
The.
- [55:52]
Howard Beck
That team. This is one of those cases, like, we talk about this all the time. Like, you know, with regard to tibs, like, and we've. We've look. Reached for all these different comparisons of, like, you know, when a coach is replaced and sometimes the next coach benefits, but they. Maybe there's something else they unlocked. But, like, how much credit does Larry. Like, Larry Brown gets all the credit and has historically, I think, for that championship. But Rick Carlisle established a lot of what that team was about, so he's done a great job with multiple teams over the years, and he had. You know, he was coach of the Pacers when Malice at the palace happened. And that team, you know, they were. They were young and. And feisty, obviously feisty and really talented and really deep. And, like, they had a chance to do some things before Malice of the palace destroyed that team. So, like, there's some moments in Carlisle's career where we don't really even get the chance to see what he could have fully accomplished, but he's, you know, he's evolved, he's adapted over the course of his career, and he's fully embraced this, like, really modern approach to offense that the Pacers deploy. And he's been. He's been incredible. And if he. And if they do win it, like, he will have been the head coach of two of the most shocking championships of the last 20 years and maybe of all time that, you know, the 2011 Mavericks were not supposed to beat Miami with LeBron and Wade and Bosh, and as we've established, the Pacers were not supposed to win this series against the Thunder, and they might. And just those two championships alone as two of the biggest upsets in history puts Carlisle in some category of his own. So I don't. I'm not a Pantheon guy. I don't know where he ranks next to Auerbach, Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Chuck Daly, all these guys, but I do think that winning a championship with two different teams spaced, you know, 14 years apart in very different ways. But. But both of them being the underdogs is. Is. Is incredible.
- [57:44]
Logan Murdoch
He's a ringer, no doubt.
- [57:45]
Zach Lowe
Stud.
- [57:46]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. All right. I think that's. That's my analysis. That's yours. Where you got to go. You got to go to workout or something?
- [57:51]
Zach Lowe
No, I don't got to go to work. I just don't have.
- [57:53]
Logan Murdoch
I mean, I don't have much. I don't have.
- [57:55]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. But, like, Roger, he's a great Coach, though, like, I would, you know, and, you know, if I would add anything to that, I think his playing, his playing background, who he, who he was, who he played with, you know, that, that, that. I think all of that goes into his ability to kind of relate to dudes. Not just, you know, the on the floor coach, but just the human being and his, his touch with his players. I think he's got a great feel for, for that. So that, that would be my addition.
- [58:25]
Logan Murdoch
Contribution, you know, I don't know if you ever deal with this, Raja, but I deal with this after Howard talks, he tell he. He has an ability to say everybody's point simultaneously.
- [58:36]
Zach Lowe
He covered a lot of bases.
- [58:37]
Logan Murdoch
There we go. It's right there.
- [58:39]
Zach Lowe
Covered a lot of bases, man.
- [58:40]
Logan Murdoch
Couldn't have said it better myself, you know.
- [58:43]
Zach Lowe
No question.
- [58:43]
Howard Beck
I think, I think that was a compliment.
- [58:45]
Zach Lowe
It was, it was.
- [58:46]
Logan Murdoch
No, it's absolutely a compliment. I'm like, I was about to say, damn, you know, Howard said it.
- [58:51]
Howard Beck
Well, you could. It could have been like Beck's been filibustering for five minutes and now I'm just tired and I want to go home and go to sleep.
- [58:58]
Logan Murdoch
Howard, how are you feeling right now?
- [59:02]
Howard Beck
Little punchy, little tired. Like, like, like, I'm probably going to go right to that bed. You could see behind me.
- [59:08]
Zach Lowe
Get that good nap power.
- [59:09]
Logan Murdoch
Get that good nap.
- [59:11]
Howard Beck
I need the NBA player. I. I need the NBA player nap. Yeah, yeah.
- [59:16]
Logan Murdoch
Raj, before we go, how many times have you got the NBA player nap and it's just giving you life?
- [59:22]
Zach Lowe
Listen, man, some nice room service and a nap, bro. I got, I got actually, bro.
- [59:29]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, all right. Yeah, man. You know, hey, that's, that's. Let me look at the time. About an hour. That's been another edition of Real Ones, ladies and gentlemen. We just filibustered for an hour. We gave you content, you know, the vibe. We'll see you on Tuesday. Me and Howard on Tuesday. Prop might be an in person. Me and Howard on Tuesday. Who knows? Raja has some fatherly work to do next week. We will see him very, very, very soon. Talk to you guys soon. Real ones mailbag gmail.com real onesmailback gmail.com real ones mailbag gmail.com we'll be answering your questions on Tuesday. Shout out to Cliff. Shout out to Victoria. Shout out to all the real Ones worldwide. All the shits. Bye. Foreign must be 21 years and older in select states for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino or 18 years and older and present in D.C. kentucky, Wyoming, if you have a problem, call 1-800- gambler or visit rghelp.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetic or visit MD. Gambling help in Maryland Hope is here. Visit GamblingHelpLinema. Call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York.