The Luka Trade Aftershocks Keep Coming. Plus, the Most Intriguing Post-Deadline Questions. | Group Chat

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show: Group Chat Episode Summary Episode Title: The Luka Trade Aftershocks Keep Coming. Plus, the Most Intriguing Post-Deadline Questions. Release Date: February 11, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Ringer NBA Show's Group Chat, hosts Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre (Big Waz) delve deep into the ongoing ramifications of the Luka Doncic trade. Released shortly after the trade deadline, this episode explores the immediate and potential long-term effects on the Dallas Mavericks and the broader NBA landscape.

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Luka Doncic Trade Aftershocks

Justin Verrier kicks off the discussion by expressing surprise at the continuing fallout from the Luka trade, highlighting a series of unexpected developments:

• Anthony Davis (AD) debuted with the Mavericks but suffered an injury that sidelines him for an estimated two weeks ([03:24]).
• Mavs' Management Missteps: The Mavericks' ownership, particularly Patrick Dumont, made controversial remarks criticizing Luka's work ethic and character, drawing unfavorable comparisons to legends like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant ([04:24]).
• Mark Williams Trade Rescinded: The Mavs attempted to trade center Mark Williams, but the deal was undone after physicals revealed concerning health issues ([21:10]).

Rob Mahoney points out the lack of coherent communication from Mavericks' management, emphasizing that the leadership seems disconnected from the magnitude of trading away their star player ([05:58]).

Notable Quote:

"The Mavs have officials who seem to have no idea what they are talking about." – Rob Mahoney ([05:58])

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Mavericks' Management and Leadership

The hosts critique the Mavericks' front office, suggesting that their approach lacks understanding and respect for star player dynamics. Big Waz draws parallels between the current Mavericks' situation and the historical Shaquille O'Neal-Kobe Bryant dynamic, where Shaq's perceived lack of effort caused friction ([06:52]).

Justin Verrier further analyzes the management's flawed logic, arguing that dismissing Luka as a "lazy dickhead" undermines his impressive performance and marketability ([05:58], [06:52]).

Notable Quote:

"AD having the first half of his life immediately followed by a weird injury was just like, my God, just crazy." – Big Waz ([07:50])

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Anthony Davis’ Impact and Injury

AD's transition to the Mavericks has been both promising and problematic:

• Debut Performance: AD started strong but immediately injured his adductor, raising concerns about his durability ([12:13]).
• Mavs Without AD: With AD sidelined, the Mavericks face significant challenges in securing playoff positioning, especially with key players like Caleb Martin also injured ([14:45]).

Rob Mahoney underscores AD's importance, noting that while Luka's absence is impactful, losing AD means losing the centerpiece that was central to the trade ([16:13]).

Notable Quote:

"When the Mavericks are going to have to win a lot in order to kind of secure some playoff positioning or even play-in positioning, they're going to have to do that without Anthony Davis." – Rob Mahoney ([16:13])

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Comparison with Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant

The hosts draw historical parallels to illustrate the Mavericks' management issues:

• Shaq vs. Kobe: Big Waz reminisces about the Shaq-Kobe dynamic, where Shaq's work ethic clashed with Kobe's dedication, leading to team tension ([06:52], [07:50]).
• Luka vs. Legends: Comparing Luka to legends like Jordan and Kobe, the Mavericks' management unfairly labels him as underperforming despite his elite talents ([04:24], [05:58]).

Notable Quote:

"Luka is Luka. Shaq is Shaq. Maybe these guys could make more of it, but they're still amazing in the form that they're in." – Rob Mahoney ([08:21])

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Rescinded Trades and Impact on the Lakers

The episode shifts focus to the Lakers, examining how the failed Mark Williams trade affects their roster:

• Mark Williams' Injury Concerns: The trade was rescinded due to undisclosed medical issues, leaving the Lakers with Jackson Hayes as their sole center ([21:10], [22:37]).
• Lakers' Roster and Future: The Lakers face limitations in strengthening their center position, impacting their championship aspirations ([24:10], [25:39]).

Big Waz questions the Lakers' decision-making, suggesting they might have missed the opportunity to acquire a more reliable center earlier ([22:37]).

Notable Quote:

"Mark Williams is injuries a little bit more significant. Back which kept him out last year. Foot that kept him out at the beginning of this year." – Rob Mahoney ([24:10])

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Post-Deadline Western Conference Questions

The discussion broadens to address key questions in the Western Conference post-deadline:

• Thunder Dominance: With the Thunder boasting a +13 point differential and the return of Chet Holmgren, they stand as a formidable force ([35:15]).
• Denver Nuggets Stability: The Nuggets' championship pedigree and the resurgence of key players like Michael Porter Jr. keep them in the top tier ([35:15], [36:42]).
• Memphis Grizzlies' Missed Opportunities: The Grizzlies chose financial relief over enhancing their roster, potentially hindering their competitive edge ([36:42], [38:36]).
• Minnesota Timberwolves' Resurgence: The Wolves show promise with improved players like Naz Reed and are considered a dark horse in the West ([39:54]).

Notable Quote:

"Memphis is the glaring team here of a team that had an opportunity to do something, and frankly, a team that we've been waiting to make a consolidation trade of a kind." – Rob Mahoney ([36:42])

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Post-Deadline Eastern Conference Questions

Shifting to the East, the hosts explore the impact of recent trades and team performances:

• Miami Heat's Defensive Strength: With Bam Adebayo and the addition of improved defensive players, the Heat are becoming a formidable defensive unit ([43:59]).
• Cleveland Cavaliers' DeAndre Hunter Acquisition: The Cavs' trade for DeAndre Hunter is scrutinized for its impact on team dynamics and matchup advantages ([58:45]).
• Orlando Magic's Struggles: The Magic failed to make significant moves at the deadline, leaving them vulnerable despite having talented players like Jalen Suggs ([51:40], [54:28]).

Notable Quote:

"The Heat adds a player like Wiggins to their defense, which was already above average, potentially elite." – Justin Verrier ([43:59])

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Team-Specific Analysis

Denver Nuggets
Rob Mahoney praises Denver's current form, emphasizing their strong defensive and offensive synergy, making them the second-best team in the West ([35:15], [36:42]).

Memphis Grizzlies
Disappointment is voiced over the Grizzlies' decision to prioritize financial relief over playoff-ready additions, questioning their future competitiveness ([36:42], [38:36]).

Cleveland Cavaliers
The Cavs' acquisition of DeAndre Hunter is dissected, debating whether his defensive prowess translates to significant offensive improvements ([58:45], [60:16]).

Phoenix Suns
The Suns are critiqued for internal turmoil and ineffective player combinations, particularly highlighting Kevin Durant's dissatisfaction and its negative impact on the team's chemistry and performance ([64:38], [66:11]).

Portland Trail Blazers
Despite their defensive excellence, questions arise about whether the Blazers are the best team in the NBA given their recent performance and defensive stats ([67:26], [70:07]).

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Conclusions and Insights

The episode concludes with a reflection on the broader NBA dynamics post-trade deadline:

• Management Missteps: Effective team management remains crucial, as evidenced by the Mavericks' struggles post-trade.
• Injury Impact: Key injuries can significantly alter team trajectories, highlighting the importance of depth and reliable player health.
• Trading Strategies: The balance between financial decisions and competitive enhancements continues to shape team performances and future prospects.

Notable Quote:

"Stars have different rules. I learned that more than anybody doing this podcast with you guys." – Justin Verrier ([05:58])

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Key Takeaways

• The Luka Doncic trade remains a pivotal point with ongoing negative repercussions for the Mavericks.
• Mavericks' management faces criticism for handling high-profile player relationships and trade communications poorly.
• Injuries to star players like Anthony Davis exacerbate team challenges, affecting playoff aspirations.
• The Western Conference showcases emerging strong teams like the Thunder and Nuggets, while traditional powerhouses like the Grizzlies and Wolves navigate internal decisions impacting their competitiveness.
• Eastern Conference teams like the Heat and Cavaliers are making strategic moves to enhance their defenses, though challenges remain for teams like the Magic and Suns.

This episode provides a comprehensive analysis of the immediate and potential long-term effects of recent trades and player movements, offering listeners deep insights into the evolving NBA landscape.

Transcript

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[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me, two guys who wish they had the work ethic of Shaquille O'Neal. Rob Mahoney Big Waz guys, the LUCA trade. It just keeps going and going and going and going going.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't recover on personal time, only on company time. Famously, you know, it's, it's just not my problem to have to spend my vacation post surgery. And so I'm following in Jack's footsteps as. As all of us should do, frankly.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I can't believe the amount of news that's come out, even in the wake of the Luka deal. We thought we were done, like, about a week ago with some of the ramifications, some of the aftershocks. But just this weekend, we got AD's debut. We got ADs new injury that's going to keep him out a couple of weeks. We got the Mavs owner coming out trying to defend the trade and ultimately sticking his foot in his mouth. We got the Mark Williams trade rescinded. Am I'm probably missing four other things. We got Anthony Davis on a TBS show doing pranks. When did that happen? It's just a mess. Woz, are you following all of this? Can you. Can you wrap your head around all this?

[Big Waz]

Yeah, man. The quotes coming out of Dallas management, definitely, that was an eyebrow raiser for me. Just in the sense that there's no reason for ownership or management to directly crush the team. That's what you have your minions in the media for. Excuse me, former players. Right? That's when everybody does their notebook dump, or as Bill says, like, oh, now you tell me situation. You can just cleanly do that. It goes with anonymous sources, and everybody gets to keep their hands clean. Everybody gets to sell their story. Boom, we move on. But the idea that you would come out and put your name to disparaging quotes of Luka Doncic and point out other generational type of players that he's not like, is. I don't know. That was. That was strange to me. AD having the first half of his life immediately followed by a weird injury was just like, my God, just crazy. Just craziness.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's catch some people up, though, because if you were not reading the Dallas Morning News over the weekend that had these quotes from Patrick Dumont, who's like the. The operating governor of the Mavs for all intents and purposes. This is what he said. In my mind, the way teams win is by focus, by having the right character, all bold, the right character, by having the right culture and having the right dedication to work as hard as possible to create a championship winning outcome. And if you're not doing that, you're going to lose. If you look at the greats in the league, the people you and I grew up with, Jordan Bird, Kobe, you know, neon signs, Shaq, they worked really hard every day with a singular, focused win. And if you don't have that. It doesn't work. If you don't have that, you shouldn't be part of the Dallas Mavericks. End quote. Not a good quote. Not a good way to follow up. I would say the overall tone deafness in Maverick's leadership following the Luka Doncic deal, like a a group that just clearly does not understand the magnitude of what they have done and what they are continuing to do. This was a trade that, among other things, shouldn't have been made if it was going to be made, should have been made in a better way if it was going to be made in the way that it, that it was, should have been messaged a lot more clearly as to why it was happening and why it was defensible and the fact that this was a significant moment that the Mavs took seriously. I don't get the impression, Justin, that this was something that was taken as seriously as it should have just based purely on the fact that every Mavs official, Nico Harrison, and now Patrick Dumont, first and foremost, who has gone on record after the fact, seems to have no idea what they are talking about.

[Chris Ryan]

They almost had a cogent response to what happened here, whether or not you agree with it or whether it makes sense logically in the NBA, sense of like player for player, trade value, although all that other stuff, they almost had it. Jordan Bird, Kobe, it's like, oh, okay, classic hard workers who made the most of their talent. And then Shaquille O'Neill, perhaps the shining example in sports, not just an NBA of a guy who didn't make the most of it. If anything, he kind of coasted and just had a good life, which more power to him, that was, that was Shaq's whole deal. But Shaq, unfortunately for anybody who has actually watched the NBA or even knows about sports in the past three decades, would know that that is his entire mo. And so, man, I really want to give him like, try to find like the, the logic to all this stuff, but it's coming damn near impossible just.

[Big Waz]

To stay on the Shaq point just for a little bit longer because of the parties involved. Nico Harrison, Kobe relationship, all of that stuff. Basically the thing that stuck a knife through the Kobe and Shaq partnership was Kobe feeling like him having to constantly defer and kowtow to Shaq as the guy, the big dog in the offense and thereby in the team and in the organization, even though he's constantly coming to camp, overweight, out of shape, playing himself in this shape. And Kobe's looking at himself like, man, I bust My butt to make sure that I'm ready for this team and this guy gets to coast. And we still like treating him as if he's the most important person here. So there's that, and then there's the direct quote from Shaquille O'Neal himself, where I forget the year, but he had. I think it was a toe injury. He had an injury of some sort that he didn't get surgery on, a rehab in the off season.

[Rob Mahoney]

Because quote, that's what I'm talking about.

[Big Waz]

I'm not getting surgery and rehabbing on my time. I got hurt on company time. I'm going to get the surgery and rehab on company time. Meaning during the season. He spent a whole offseason chilling, not managing his body because he said this was basically like a workman's comp situation here that he didn't think he should be doing in his free time. That was the Shaq that we knew. So tough, tough quote by Mav's management.

[Rob Mahoney]

There, I would say even this read that we're giving it by talking so much about Shaq is quite generous because Michael Jordan got the fuck after it. Larry Bird, not a stranger to having a, like, a beer in his hand, Right? Like, these are guys who lived in their respective ways. And if we're pointing at Luka Doncic and saying, that guy's not doing enough, look fair enough on the conditioning front. Not someone who's showing up into camp in shape, as we've alluded to with the Shaq parallel, but also not alone in terms of NBA superstars who are living a little bit. And if you are this dominant while doing, if you think this little in the eyes of Patrick Dumont and Nico Harrison or whoever with the Mavericks, who thinks Luca should be doing more, all the more impressive that he's able to do the things that he did. Like the. I think what's ultimate, what sticks out to me with the Kobe Shaq thing, in retrospect, even more so than in present tense, was. All of those things you said are true. Was. And the frustrations from Kobe are well founded as far as, like, this guy is showing up out of shape. He is rehabbing on company time. He isn't putting the work in that I'm putting in. And guess what? Shaq was still significantly more dominant than Kobe at that point in time. And sometimes that's just what it is. Luka is Luka. Shaq is Shaq. Maybe these guys could make more of it, but they're still amazing in the form that they're in.

[Chris Ryan]

Also the juxtaposition where he said this, I believe the same day or the day after Anthony Davis shows up in a shirt promoting his new prank show. I can't say this enough to be like, Anthony Davis is the shining example of someone committed to their craft, but then simultaneously promoting a prank show like he's Ashton Kutcher for the NBA. First of all, like, how did this even happen? Who had the idea that Anthony Davis was like the charismatic host of anything, let alone like a comedy like skit thing starring like the D list of NBA players? I saw D'Angelo Russell. I saw Terrence Mann getting pranked in a future.

[Rob Mahoney]

Terrence, man.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, he's on. Where is he? He's in the Hawks now, so. So yeah, there's a real come up for him happening here. It just, it just doesn't make sense. But I have to say I, I've enjoyed all of this because just trying to wrap your arm around this has been really fun.

[Rob Mahoney]

Justin, how do you feel about a prank show?

[Chris Ryan]

Awful. No, No, I don't.

[Big Waz]

Practical jokers for you.

[Chris Ryan]

No, not what we're doing. Whoopee cushions.

[Rob Mahoney]

I. I will never flip a channel faster than when Impractical Jokers is on. With all due respect, you know, those guys are doing their, their thing. Clearly there is an audience for it. Clearly it is. Is on reruns all day long. And if I'm stuck in a hotel room, I can guarantee you it's on somewhere. But I, I will not be partaking in it personally.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I'm sure I indulged in a punk back in the day, like, that was on rotation when you watched MTV 24 7. But I don't know if it works the same with Anthony Davis and then with like guys you've never heard of before. If you're just like a mom and dad at home on your couch on Friday afternoon or whatever this is, we're.

[Rob Mahoney]

Going to find out. I guess maybe it'll be a smashing success.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, well, one thing I do think this did was we spent a lot of time, like, just wondering what the hell happened to get us to this point where Luka was traded. I think the interview that Dumont did did clarify things, at least for me. They just thought Luke is a dick. They just didn't want to work with them. They thought he's a lazy dickhead and they're just like, sick of dealing with them. And so they sent him off. And the problem is these are guys who are by and large coming into the NBA pretty fresh. The owners are new to the NBA based on, like, what? Within the past year, I believe. And then Nico Harrison obviously comes from a Nike background, just not used to having to tolerate the shit that Luka Dodge has put them through. But it seems, by and large, they were just sick of him. And that's what happened.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, and that would make sense, honestly, when you think about it, These people come from the worlds of business where your subordinates whose checks you sign are just not allowed to behave the way that NBA stars generally are allowed to. Again. And so Nico Harrison comes in with what we feel like is a harebrained idea, and he has justifications for it. And the bosses are like, look, if they're not used to the NBA and not used to this kind of behavior from the stars that drive winning, they're gonna be like, yo, you know what? You're right. Let's get somebody in here who's more subordinate to the things we want to do, who's more obedient, who's more willing to bust his hump for the company. And so, you know, again, they're wrong, but it's not hard to see how they came to this conclusion.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I'm. I'm not immune to the appeals of culture. For the record, like, team culture, I think, is actually a pretty tangibly important thing. Uh, but maybe what's more tangibly important is having Luka Doncic on your team. And at some point, you just have to prioritize what you have and the unique talent you have available within your organization. Over, oh, this is my dream to march. A bunch of Kobe's out there, like, I salute you, and if that's the way you want to go, by all means. I just. I don't think it's a very good way to run an NBA team.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, stars have different rules. I learned that more than anybody doing this podcast with, with you guys. But Anthony Davis did have a rousing debut in the midst of all this, or at leave the first three quarters, of which 26, 16, 7 assists, 3 blocks. Had the best six minutes opening six minutes of his career, probably against the Rockets the other day. I'm like, oh, I can see this now. Like, at the very least, whatever is left with the Mavs are going to be good. Fortunately, middle of a play just starts grabbing at the groin area. This is a guy who's had multiple adductor strains in the past, and as soon as he did that, first of all was non contact, but also he was grabbing, let's just be frank, at his junk at this Point, Uh, and it was seemed pretty clear to me that that was what was happening. Uh, I, I, I don't know where you go from here. Like, I've tried to defend at the very least, like, what was left with the Mavs thought that he could at the very least be a con, like a, a competent team in the Western Conference race, but without him. With Caleb Martin on the shelf as well for two to three weeks, I, I, I, I just don't know what to do at this point.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, was, I feel like we haven't talked about this part of things enough. There's been a lot of conversation about how great Luka is, how unique a talent he has, what he's accomplished, and we kind of just zoomed right past measuring injury risk against injury risk. Yeah, and I think that's in part because a lot of us have so much respect for what AD has done over the last calendar year where he's coming off the healthiest and a lot of ways the best season of his life. And I personally wanted to believe that that was the guy he could be, but historically it's just not.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, that was the tougher. Again, this was the tougher part. One of the tougher parts of the cell job that Mav's ownership and front office had to do is decided like, yeah, we're worried about guys not being on the floor. And nobody's ever accused AD of just not like working hard enough to be in good enough shape. He's always been a well conditioned guy, look, for sure, good looking guy, um, but like he's had trouble staying on the floor. And traditionally in the last two season, it's been much better before this most recent injury. But his history in totality is one of a guy who misses a lot of games. And so it's just like, man, it's not like you're trading for some Ironman here, you know, to solve some of these problems. You're trading for a guy who's been known, man. Like, he has a propensity to have these nagging, lingering injuries all the time. And so the fact that it reared his ugly head in his first game in your uniform, just a tough, tough break for them.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. So before this season, during his Lakers tenure so far, he had missed an average of 24 games a season. He's if, you know, assuming he's going to be out roughly a month with this adductor strain, which it seems like that's the early projection and honestly, it could be more. These things do linger. We just saw the effects of what can happen if you try to rush back maybe a little bit too quickly from an initial strain. So it wouldn't be surprising if they end up holding him out even longer than that. He's going to end up right around that kind of low 20s mark again. And that's not even factoring in any other potential injuries he could have throughout the rest of the year. So this is. This is just kind of what he is. And when he's on the floor, he's one of the best players in the world. But too often he's not. And during this stretch of games where the Mavericks are going to have to win a lot in order to kind of secure some playoff positioning or even play in positioning, they're going to have to do that without Anthony Davis. They're going to have to do that without the centerpiece of the deal. Even though Max Chris is out here balling out of. Of the Luka Doncic trade.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, and credit to AD he did seem like he met the moment. Like, we talked a lot about how Luka was going to play with revenge in his heart and like, what a terror he could be for the Lakers. We'll see that. I think he's supposed to go tonight, on Monday after we record this. But AD seemed like he was on a bit of his own. Like, y'all forgot about me, sort of run there, played inspired in a way that I hadn't seen him before. Just seemed like AD plus a context built around him, was primed to see the best version of A.D. but, like, we'll see how much we get of them. I. I imagine he'll be out probably through the rest of the month. There's some reporting from Sean that it could possibly be a full month. So maybe we're digging into March at that point. And so the Mavs, three games over.500 right now, eighth in the Western Conference. You really have to do enough in order to stay afloat here while he's gone. I mean, warriors are 11th right now at 16 and a half. Even the spurs are way back at 19 and a half games back. So about four and a half games back for the Mav. So it's going to be tough. I don't know. I imagine they'll still make the playoffs because they did with the MASH unit, beat the Celtics the other night. Like they still have enough Narci Marshals, we should talk about Max Christie, as Rob mentioned. Like, he seems like he has another gear to his game that I'm excited to see. There's a lot. There's enough depth there, but it's going to be hard. I imagine they're looking at playing at best at this point.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's going to be really hard and I think and they have a lot of head to head matchups against these other playing teams left on their schedule. They frankly just like have to beat the Kings and have to beat the warriors and have to beat the Suns when those teams come up. Those are going to be incredibly important games all of a sudden. And I want to give AD credit about one thing too. I wrote about this some for the ringer.com today. Everything that we're saying about Nico Harrison and Patrick Dumont and the things they have said publicly about this trade, Anthony Davis has been the exact opposite. He has actually in his public comments about coming to the Mavs spoken with a lot of respect about what Luca meant to the area. Like really deferring, I think to the fan experience and how like how invested people were in Luka as a maverick and in the idea of he's coming basically hat in hand trying to win people over and give hope to a franchise that is frankly in desperate need of some right now. So it especially sucks that a guy who was coming in with the perfect perspective with that dominant initial performance for him to have to bow out in the way he did is really, really painful for the Mavs. And ultimately I hope you're right, Justin, that they're going to end up in the play in mix. I I am kind of in wait and see mode. I have no idea what to expect. One thing that I'm kind of getting caught on is the Mavs have had to make do a lot without Luka this year and in some ways that's given them the ability to have those sort of MASH performances you're talking about. It's also at some point just going to take a toll on especially guys like Kyrie who have to do a lot of creative heavy lifting now, particularly with AD out and how are they going to continue to do it in these games that matter in these games with heightened emotions. Like for example, when you play against Luka Doncic for the first time and then when he comes to Dallas to play against him for the second time. There's just a lot going on for the Mavs right now.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So the other side of this though is the Lakers. Like we mentioned, Luka plays tonight or we're expecting him to play tonight. Mark Williams won't be playing tonight. Well, perhaps he will, but not for the Lakers because that trade got rescinded after they went through the physicals. I, I mean I can't remember anything like that where the trade was actually pulled back. So for we had the Caleb Martin trade that got revised after the fact because there was something found in, in the physicals. But there was enough time before the deadline where they could attach a second round pick that the Sixers could this one because they were post deadline, they couldn't do anything. I'm perplexed W but I have to say I was someone who was, was kind of questioning this as the follow up move to begin with. So I think in the short term this might not be great because they have literally one center on the roster and it's Jackson Hayes. I think long term, at the very least you have the potter to do something bigger perhaps to pair Luca with another superstar. So I, I don't know. I wonder if this is a saving grace in, in some ways.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, I think if you took a critical lens to the deal like some of us did up here, when it came to our misgivings about mark Williams injury history 1 and his defense that he's put on tape so far in his career, it just hasn't been very impressive. And you know, if you had your problems with the deal, it's like, oh, the Lakers got lucky. But you just wonder about the process here and why, you know, this happened at the 11th hour in terms of the rescinding of the trade. And you wonder if the medical group was involved at the start of this anyway at all. And if they came in at the last minute because management was sort of operating solo here and was like, look man, this is the kind of medical that we wouldn't clear. And maybe if they did try to figure this trade out on Tuesday or something or Monday of last week, there would be some amendments to the deal where the Lakers still get Mark Williams. But maybe they're like, oh, that 2030 swap that's off the table or something like that. Or maybe Charlotte needs to add some other sweeteners. Uh, I, I, I think this is legitimate, man. I think the Lakers wanted this guy in their building and they saw stuff that just really, really scared them away. Which is not to say that Mark Williams can't go on and have a nice career. I don't think that this is like some death knell for him injury wise or something like that. But clearly there's something in his medical that spooked the Lakers.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. And I think something that goes above and beyond standard issue intel that the Lakers might have already had on hand. So like I actually think was it. It makes total sense to me that maybe clearly they know how much time he's missed, they know the vague parameters of his injury and maybe even greater detail after doing some digging on him. But there are certain things you don't know for certain until you see the, the, you know, the medical in detail. And with Mark Williams, clearly that is scaring the Lakers. Clearly it scared the Hornets, a rebuilding team that was about to trade away a really talented 23 year old player. And I have, I agree that he still has the opportunity to have a great career ahead of him. Lots of players have overcome early injury problems, managed to put things together. It's a little dicier for Biggs, I'll say. Historically, a lot of lower body injuries. Although Mark Williams has kind of been all over the map in terms of what his medical history is, it's still concerning. I think what I'm kind of having an eye to is what does this mean for him in the near future as far as what his next contract looks like. Like, this is a loud indictment of Mark Williams, the healthy basketball player. And he's a guy who, and this is one of the reasons why the Hornets would have wanted to trade him in the first place, has already been in the league for three years. He's played 40% of the games in those three years. He's extension eligible this fall. He's going to be due for a new contract in 2026 whether you give him an extension or not. And now all of a sudden he has this hanging over him as far as what he can, you know, if you're going to put a price tag on what he can give you on a basketball court, it's now a lot harder for Mark Williams to get the kind of deal that his talent deserves. If this is the reality of his health.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, we're old enough to remember when Tyson Chandler, the trade to the Thunder, was scuttled because of one toe. The left big toe, as I am looking up here, is what ultimately kept him from going to the Thunder. And the ripple effects from that are absolutely fascinating because he eventually gets to the Mavs like the Thunder ultimately go out and get Perk. It's just like it's just a whole mess of history that gets written as a result of that. But Chandler obviously had another gear to his career, different sort of trajectory, top pick who kind of like settled into this weird middle ground before he kind of popped with the Mavs later in his career and then eventually the Knicks. But there's life after all this. Mark Williams is injuries a little bit more significant. Back which kept him out last year. Foot that kept him out at the beginning of this year. I like him as a player. Like we've said before, like just a big mobile target, huge hands offensively just like will help any team. We'll see about the defense, but I still like him. Hopefully he could pick things back up. But for the Lakers, kind of leaves them a little wanting, you know, because they can't just go out and fill that void anywhere else. Because I believe they're also a little bit restricted in terms of aprons and in trades. I think they could still sign a buyout guy because they're not over the second apron. So they can get a guy who was making under 13 million who has been weighed by their team which is like, you know, limits the pool just a little bit. Was, do you think about the Lakers this season any differently now without Williams in there?

[Big Waz]

I mean, I don't know that Williams made them some championship contender. You know, I, I, I just don't truly don't believe that. Uh, however, we gotta assume he had more to give than Jackson Hayes does. I mean I, I think that's a fair assumption.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Big Waz]

Even if you're just doing it on offense only. Um, and you could say maybe him and Jackson Hayes would have been a draw. Some people would say Jackson Hayes is a much better defender. I don't know, I can't, I can't really say. But I don't think the Lakers right now are like so adversely affected by this. Right. Um, I think it makes them worse, but I don't think their trajectory has been severely diminished by this. But I do think when you look at the buyout market, like the guy, the names that like a quick cursory glance of like the teases and the.

[Chris Ryan]

Mo Bambas and it's no Simmons out there for you.

[Big Waz]

Tough market.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let me divert us right there. Cause I believe it's actually first and second apron teams that cannot sign guys over the mid level value on their previous contract in a buyout. So they, they could sign somebody who's been cut, who is at a lower level salary, but I don't think they can even participate in that kind of buyout market.

[Chris Ryan]

So this is who they are. I guess on the bright side, Connect is a shooter and so that is the other type of player you want around Luka Doncic. But they're going to be pretty thin. It's going to be a lot of Rui Lebron probably spot in minutes there on second units. How do you go? How do you. Luka maybe if he's actually 270.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just wondering how you add Dalton connect back to the group chat. Like, do you. Do you even. I. I mean, I think you have to.

[Chris Ryan]

It's just.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's a. That's a tough invite back.

[Big Waz]

Tough, tough for. For both guys. For Mark Williams, too. It's going to be awkward heading back to Charlotte. Just be like, hey, welcome back.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep, we love and value you here.

[Big Waz]

It's. It's a. It's, it's tough. But this is the business, man. This is. This is how it goes. And, you know, some people would have said, like myself, I would have thought it better to go after a Clint Capella or like, you know, a nice, serviceable big that was way more affordable. They opted to try to take a shot on somebody who could have, you know, tremendous upside in the future. But now they can do neither and we'll see how this works out.

[Rob Mahoney]

And that's the difference as. As we've alluded to with this and the Tyson Chandler kind of parallel is they had the window because they tried to make the deal earlier to go out and get somebody else. The Lakers are more or less stuck with this, and they're not just stuck with Jackson Hayes. They're stuck with whoever they're playing behind Jackson Hayes. They're stuck with the Trey Jemison minutes. More or less, I think is going to be a relevant part of this team. Or as you said, Justin, maybe a 270 Luca, maybe a LeBron. Like, they're really going to have to pinch some Markeith Morris minutes in here somewhere and just hope for the best. And that's a little dicey.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep. Luka was actually gaining weight in order to play center down the road. He was actually adding a new dimension to his game.

[Rob Mahoney]

Mavs didn't realize he's seeing the full board point center.

[Chris Ryan]

The west is just a complete mess, though, at this point. I mean, there's just so many teams that are kind of on that second tier where it's like they definitely have something, but who is going to really clarify things or really jump into the Thunder's level? I mean, the Thunder at this point, I will say again, the Thunder have nine losses in this entire season. They just got Chet Holmgren back and they have a plus 13 point differential, which I believe would be the best in NBA history. When the game tips off, the NBA action is just beginning on FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook, because FanDuel is your home for NBA Live betting. So even if you miss the first few minutes of the game or want to bet on a fourth quarter comeback, you can make your picks from the first whistle until the final buzzer. Plus you can even combine your live bets into a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout. However you want to play, now is the perfect time to join. So we're looking ahead to the All Star Game itself, not just the weekend. We're looking at the game and I am going to go with Believe it or not, Team Kenny plus three. 70. Let's go. They've got the young guys. I know that it isn't necessarily star studded, especially in comparison to a team with Jokic and Shay and Wemby on one team and then you got LeBron and Steph and Tatum on another team and KD. But I think the young guys will probably try harder and in this format where everybody's playing a quarter and they're trying to win and I like it. Anthony Edwards is a dog and so give me the team Kenny plus 3. 70. And if you want to pull a little something on Edwards for mvp, I don't hate it. And new customers get started with $150 in bonus bets. If your first $5 bet wins, just visit FanDuel.com RingerMBA to join today. That's FanDuel.com/RingerMBA for your shot at $150 in bonus bets. Make every moment more with FanDuel. Official sports betting partner of the NBA must be 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in DC. First online real money wager only $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets which expire seven days after receipt restrictions apply seat terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this.

[Bill Simmons]

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[Rob Mahoney]

Sam the world needs heroes.

[Chris Ryan]

Here I am. Excellent.

[Big Waz]

Get tickets now for the first Marvel movie event of the year. Let's go with Anthony Mackie.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm going in.

[Big Waz]

Judd, Carlos Esposito.

[Chris Ryan]

Stand by for proof of death.

[Big Waz]

And Harrison Ford.

[Chris Ryan]

I'll show the world I've changed.

[Rob Mahoney]

You want me? Come and get me.

[Chris Ryan]

Captain America.

[Big Waz]

Brave New World.

[Chris Ryan]

See it in IMAX this Friday Hit tickets now. Ready? PG13 this film may be inappropriate for children under 13.

[Rob Mahoney]

In the mood for something crunchy, saucy and boneless? Try Jack's new crispy boneless wings from Jack in the Box. Get them with honey, garlic, Sriracha or Smoke show smoky barbecue sauce. Enjoy so much more. Well, maybe this is a good transition point for us, Justin, because you asked us to bring some pertinent questions for what we would like to see answered after the deadline. The things that we're trying to unravel over the back half of the season. The number one question for me is which of these other Western Conference contenders are going to regret not doing more? Because there is a bit of a void here. There is a bit of a mess. Like there are the thunder, clearly who are in a class of their own. And then there's this other group of very competitive teams, most of which did nothing to actually add to their rosters. And look, we are, we are fickle creatures and I think it would be natural on the other side of a second round loss to look at what could have been, to look at the deals you could have made if you are the Memphis Grizzlies, if you're the Denver Nuggets, if you're even the Minnesota Timberwolves and say, you know what, we were closer than we thought and I, I am eager to see who finds themselves in that position by the end of the year and who kind of even already seems to be moving in that in that direction over the next month or two.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, we talked about awkwardness going back to their teams. How do you think Zeke Najee and Dario Sarich are feeling right now after their GM was like, we tried to trade those bums. They weren't in the rotation, but we did our best here. I got to say I think the Nuggets are looking pretty good right now because they have a clear size advantage. They didn't go out and make a move, but like Michael Porter Jr. Slowly playing pretty well and that it fits their whole identity if he is that third guy. I understand juicing the offense with a Zach Levine type if you wanted to go out and do something different. But they are the best version of themselves when they could be big in that front court and when Russ is playing as well as he had. Russ is out right now, so we'll see if it affects them in the regular season standings. I do think it would be nice if they can clarify themselves as the number two, if only to get home court advantage. But to me, I think they're making out like gangbusters here because they're like, they're just, they were waiting for something like this to happen, an opening and so that they could just let Jokic be the best player in every series.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, if you're Denver, you definitely look at okay, OKC is having this amazing season. They've definitely coalesced into something very special and they're killing it. Outside of that in the West, I don't know why Denver would feel any problems against anybody, even Minnesota, who clearly gives them matchup situations. I think the ant matchup specifically, they just don't have the wing that makes sense in the matchup. He's either too big or too fast for all of their wing defenders. But outside of that, who, you know, obviously was just a whale of a matchup in the playoffs last year for them. I don't know why Denver would be nervous about any of these other teams considering what they could bring to bear. So I thought they were pretty smart and the young guys have looked way better than they did, you know, the first three, four weeks of the season, which sounds like, you know, duh, they're young guys, but like, listen, man, not young guys don't always pan out. Sometimes they just stay bad and their young guys have stepped up to the plate. So Denver, I think, is clearly, the number two team in the west right now. And I think Memphis and all these other guys are in the mix. It's not like they're that far behind. But Denver, with, you know, their championship pedigree, they have the best player in the league. You know, the, the supporting cast. Murray started off horribly. Porter Jr. Was kind of just middling. But now those guys are both catching fire. Denver is sitting very pretty at the moment.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think if they were going to make a move, it would have been something on the periphery. Not to, not to echo Calvin Booth too strongly, but a Zeke Najee, Dario Saric kind of trade does sort of make sense for them. That said, Zig Naji's been all right lately and given them some decent minutes here and there. I think ultimately where they are a little bit short and what could hurt them is the insurance for Julian Strother. Right. The. The insurance. The insurance for Hunter Tyson. Right. These guys who are, you know, giving you bits and pieces here and there, but ultimately you have the rock solid elements of your rotation, and I think Christian Brown is obviously one of the rock solid elements of the rotation at this point. Peyton Watson is probably closer to that side of things than the alternative, but there's still a couple role players on the fringes where even if you weren't going to upgrade on their spot, you could have an alternative for the games where they don't have it. And I don't, I don't know that the Nuggets really have a lot of that right now. They're kind of in a position where their guys have to be good, and if their guys aren't good enough or the matchup isn't favorable enough to them, that could hurt them. All of that, said Memphis, to me, is the glaring team here of a team that had an opportunity to do something, and frankly, a team that we've been waiting to make a consolidation trade of a kind, they have more good players and more viable rotation players than they can use. And rather than use that combination of, of players and picks that they have available to them to try to make their roster any meaning, like, better in any meaningful way, what they did was give away two guys that, that hurts. Even when you understand the financial explanations for why it happened. Like there's a perfectly reasonable and plausible case to be made for the financial relief that comes with shedding Marcus Smart and trading away Jake Laravia, who they basically wouldn't have been able to resign anyway after declining his option. But it just hurts to get to this point where they, they do feel pretty close and to not be moving forward and instead be moving in the direction of financial relief.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I said it after the deadline. I, I don't understand why they did that now as opposed to in the off season. Feels like that could have been there for them. I know Laravia would have been a free agent at that point, so you couldn't have worked there. But like, I, I think just keeping him and just keep him as a solid rotation player would have been perfectly fine because you didn't get anything back for him. So they, they just replaced guys who, who could be helpful and smart and a guy who was helpful with nothing. And so that's a little curious. We're always looking out for John Morant. He's played three games since he's been back from his latest injury and he's been, he's been better, just not the same dynamic jaw that we're used to. He has been in kind of pass first mode in order to activate some, all these other options that he has on the team the entire season. So maybe there's that and he'll just take over when it comes to a playoff series, but I don't know. I think the Wolves are pretty intriguing at this point because they seem to have righted their ship to the point where they're in the mix for this number two slot. I just think, like, if they have the right combination of guys, especially the way Naz Reed is playing and the way that it can play seemingly virtually any game where he dropped 40 the other night, like still having the best player in a series where we're saying these teams are kind of on the same level, I think is going to matter. And so I think you have to watch them in the second half of the season.

[Rob Mahoney]

They're also a team that for trade deadline purposes is so leveraged in terms of their picks and has such a complicated roster situation that I, I don't know that there was a lot they could do beyond take miracle runs at Kevin Durant and try to figure out the math later, which I'm. I'm still trying to figure out if that math can even work.

[Big Waz]

No, the Suns were going to just love a Julius Randle situation. It would just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Even if that's true, they're both above the second apron, which makes it very hard for them to trade with each other. So There. There would have had to be some very elaborate scenario for that to even make sense, and I'm not sure it ever would have. But all of which is to say, I think the Wolves are interesting. They're clearly competitive. They clearly have some matchups that they can work the margins of and. And really press some teams that are really, really good in the West. I don't know if, on balance, they're going to be stable enough to get to a Western Conference final again. I would. I would love to see it. I would love to see them continue to correct and continue to make those steps. But this does increasingly feel like either a Memphis year or a Denver year, and certainly one where I think we're anticipating OKC punching their ticket a little further than they did last time wise.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you like any of the other teams, or is it just Denver for you?

[Big Waz]

Yeah, in terms of the West, I mean, I've been on Memphis all year. I'm actually not as mad as you guys. Or mad. Maybe mad is the wrong word. That Memphis didn't make a move just because.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not mad, just disappointed.

[Big Waz]

Was so many of these pieces, man, it's kind of like, all right, let's see them get a chance to accomplish something in the playoffs. These guys, a lot of these guys are unproven. I get it. You know, Santi Aldama and the like, like, haven't proven that they are, like, tough as nails playoff rotation guys.

[Rob Mahoney]

Santi Aldama has proven everything that he needs to prove to me.

[Big Waz]

I didn't say he needs to prove way more. I'm just saying maybe in the postseason you could say that about them. But if you're Memphis, I think you like your pieces, you like Gigi Jackson, you like, you know, the guys that you have and want to give them a chance to prove their mettle in the postseason. So I'm not mad that they made a move. I just think Denver, because of the continuity, because of the stability, I just love that in a playoff, right? Like, they have so many things they can rely upon and just go back to in tough spots that I just like the position they're in. Again, they're not going to get to the number one seed that's sewn up, but they feel like they've just, like, sort of locked themselves into that next tier of Western Conference teams.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep. Vince Williams also back. So Memphis has guys on top of guys on top of guys. Like, they have options here. They're just not as proven. We haven't seen Gigi Jackson. We haven't Seen Vince Williams. We haven't seen Jalen Wells, a guy who's a critical part of that starting lineup in the rotation in the playoff series. So it's a little bit more unknown. So you're projecting, but this is kind of what Memphis does. So I guess we. We shouldn't be surprised that this is how they win at the deadline. I want to flip to the Eastern Conference now because we talked a lot about the Jimmy Butler trade. From Colton State's perspective, I'm wondering about the kind of six to the play in mix to maybe even fifth for the east. Because the Heat are interesting. I didn't expect them to get a player as good as Wiggins back, and now I don't think it necessarily juices their offense to the point where, like, maybe they're even just like, above average, but he does fit their defensive mindset, and Wiggins has kind of found this nice little middle ground where it doesn't seem like we'll get 22 finals Wiggins, as much as people are hoping and praying that Eric Spoelstra and then like the Miami Heat Bootcamp will just, like, get him to do a bunch of crunches, and all of a sudden he's just like the best possible version of himself again, I don't think that's going to happen, but I think the Wiggins that they have now is just like one of the better three and D guys in the league. And you add him to their defense, which was already above average, potentially elite. Where you're now playing Bam, where Wiggins as a pretty huge front line. I have to say I'm feeling good about my projection that he could be the winners of this, like, number six derby with, like, the Pistons and maybe the Bucks. Probably not the Bucks, but, like the Magic, the Hawks, I think they're like, they have enough of heatness with the Wiggins move that I feel good about their chances going forward in the second half.

[Rob Mahoney]

I want to believe. I really want to believe. And then, you know, granted, Wiggins isn't there yet. All the. All the other guys they brought in, Kyle Anderson, Davion Mitchell, not there yet. Watch them drop, like, 86 points against the Nets. They're going to. And look, even when Wiggins and Davion Mitchell and Kyle Anderson get there, they're going to have those kinds of games where they're, like, scraping together to get 93. They. They just don't have a lot of firepower once you get beyond Tyler Hero. Unless Bam really has a cook in that night, which this season Just hasn't been often enough. But defensively I think they're going to be really formidable. I'm very eager to see it. I just look at the shape of their total rotation wise. I'm like, there's a lot of guys here I like and they might work well together or maybe not. I don't know if they will score against basically anybody. But I, I find myself wanting to believe in them. If not as a locked in top 16 than at least one that's competing.

[Big Waz]

They just don't have enough shot creation. Tyler Herro is having a great season, All Star caliber season and God bless him, God knows his name has been through the, through the mud, through the ringer the last few years. But like he's proven to be like a guy. But it's Tyler Hero and Terry Rogier as your shot creators and every now and again you get Wiggins and Bam involved in that and that's just not going to sustain a respectable NBA offense. Now maybe they piece it together on defense and Spo is always like pretty crafty about getting more out of his offensive players than would, you know, be expected. But I just, I can't see how this team scores credibly and reliably with the pieces that are now on the team.

[Chris Ryan]

Listen, where is good? Where is like new white side basically just without all the dumb stuff, you know.

[Big Waz]

Well, he's grabbing and going on rebounds and it doesn't feel crazy. It feels like this is something within his ability to do. Man, that, that's the part that really got me is this guy has already has a lot of ball skills that I was, I was unsure of. And you know, he's got the tools. He's super lanky athletic. Like he's got. There's a lot there to like about this kid.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's got the tools. I don't know if he has the discretion just yet. And there are, there are a lot of like he'll play five minutes and get three fouls kind of stretches from him. And look, that's what happens when you come into the league. It's even what happens when you come into the league with an organization that's as buttoned up as the Heat. And they have really high standards, which is why it took Khalil where some time to even crack the rotation. And they had him and Bam playing together in practice basically for months before they were doing it in games to give him the sort of training wheels and acclimation he needed. But it is paying off. Like they're, they're an impressive duo, and I think they can actually really work together long term if that's the way the Heat want to go.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I want to talk about them long term here. So we know what they are now based on the Wiggins trade. But, like, long term, I'm wondering what the next move is, because as a result of this trade, you can go one of two ways. You could basically reset your team and say this. We have a longer view now. Bam is on a younger timeline, and we're building things around him and Hero, let's, like, slow play this and see what happens. They get a pick from the warriors in this deal that basically puts them in the same position that they would have been had they've been able to keep their pick, which now goes to the Thunder. I believe it's 1 to 14 protected, and so that's more than likely going to the Thunder. But the Warriors, I believe, are one spot below them in the standing. So they'll. They'll get into that range where they've been successful in the past. Hawkes, where we've talked about some of their draft hits before. Bam. Another guy. They're very good drafting in the middle of the draft, so they could just say, like, hey, we're younger. We'll be young and fun. SPO will coach us up. We'll just be as good as possible. But I also have to wonder, like, what are they thinking in terms of the star trade? Because Riley is always out there looking for the next guy. I think you got to talk about Kevin Durant as a possibility. I don't know if they can get into the derby there with, like, in terms of pick packages, with a team like the rockets who has 90 different picks, 90 different young players, that would intrigue a team. But if I'm Durant and I'm just looking for, like, a credible option, like, I believe Miami's the one big market he hasn't been to at this point, and if he's looking for stability, that he have stability. So I think there's some sort of a marriage of convenience there if they want it.

[Big Waz]

So KD has been their white whale for six years now, since free agency. They thought they were in on the KD thing when he went to the Nets. They also thought they had the inside track on trading for KD before Phoenix came and blew every single deal out the water. So I wouldn't be surprised if they still harbored those. Those yearnings for the slim reaper and, you know, again, you know, a little bit more reporting came out about the KD and Phoenix thing where, you know, Steph calls the guy and he's like, look, Steph, I love you, but, like, this just doesn't feel like the right way for us to be doing this because he just felt like Phoenix completely blindsided him and shopping him in different deals. Right. And so now, obviously, he's got a frayed relationship with management. We know kd, that's not going to go well when that's the case. So KD will come available this summer. It feels like the well has just basically been completely poisoned over there, and Miami will have the opportunities just at what cost? And how could it. Like, how is it. How can it be justified if they're giving up, like, real stuff for it?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I. I don't know what the Miami package looks like that's super competitive for someone like Kevin Durant. And there's also sort of the identity crisis within the Heat, which is. Justin, you're right that Pat Riley does circle these stars and find the guys who's like, I want, as you're alluding to, was we Kevin Durant. For years and years and years, we've been trying to get Durant here. Obviously LeBron, obviously Jimmy. There's all these stories about the big game hunting that the Heat do, but in his heart of hearts, Eric Spolster is a sicko, and he wants. He wants to roll out in the mud with Davion Mitchell, with Kyle Anderson, with James Johnson, with Deon Waiters, like, these are the teams that it feels like really invigorate him as a coach and in some ways play the most spirited Miami Heat version of basketball, at least the version that's most true to the Giant Ass Decals Expo, like, extolling the virtues of their culture on their court. And so there is that part of the Heat that wants to be this. That wants to win ugly as often as possible. And so it's like, how those things meld together in future, always fascinating to watch. For short term purposes. They're just going to be ugly, and they're going to be ugly in a way that might delight us sometime, but it's definitely going to be ugly.

[Chris Ryan]

I appreciated you, Donnis Haslam on the ESPN set being like, this is a great trade for us. We did a great job here. We love this trade package. I was like, yes, the culture extends beyond when we actually.

[Big Waz]

Completely unbiased opinion there.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, is he not still an employee in some capacity?

[Big Waz]

Sure, I'm sure he's some kind of consultant or whatever.

[Rob Mahoney]

I see him more as the spin doctor on set that like the administration sends to, you know, to sell the deal. That's. That's his role on a panel show.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I will say Kevin Durant only has one more year left on his deal next season, so you would imagine he would be able to pick and choose where he's going and it would be less of a, like, this team has the most stuff. He's going there. But you know, the Rockets are probably still very appealing and there are a couple other teams that are probably still very appealing. If you wanted to go to other options was do you want to go with one of your questions?

[Big Waz]

Are the Magic going to regret not busting a move during the deadline?

[Rob Mahoney]

Will they wake up?

[Big Waz]

Will they wake up? Because so I'm watching the spurs and whatever they had a loss or two since, since the, since the Fox deal. But Fox looks amazing and the idea that these guys went out and made what is obviously a win now deal and look it probably Fox forced their hands right in the sense that like an all star caliber guy is dying to get here. Then we got to speed up our timeline. But like I feel like the Magic, especially coming into the season, we felt like they were further along in their project than the San Antonio spurs were. We thought they were knocking on the door of being like a real problem for the top of the East. And to watch them flounder in the way that they have been recently and to do nothing at the deadline, it's like, I understand want to be patient with your young guys, but at the same time, like you guys came into this year with expectations, man. Like why do you want to finish this year with like a sour sort of taste of disappointment and not reaching your end goals. And so I'm curious as to what the Magic think they got or what they think they can still achieve with the expectations they came into the season with.

[Rob Mahoney]

They need it. They need a shot in the arm so badly. And I wonder from their perspective, you know, this is a team that does not make a lot of in season moves historically. Just like is not a particularly active presence at the trade deadline. Clearly has a lot of young talent on its roster in a way that understandably would lean a team toward wait and see. Let's, let's, let's let these guys come together. Let's see if they figure it out. I kind of wonder if maybe there's a way to look at the deadline for a team like Orlando, which is not, oh, you need to make some dramatic renovation to your Roster. Oh, you need to trade away the, even the young players you consider to be part of your core in order to get something of value back. But these guys need relief and they need help and they have been a match unit all season long. And so even the guys who have been out there and been relatively healthy are now kind of running on fumes. And you see guys just aren't as, aren't as able to deliver in the ways they did defensively, which is Orlando's calling card. Clearly they're not able to score consistently. This is a team that basically every other game, if not two out of every three games, ends up in the 90s because they just cannot muster consistent points. And so there's all of these factors swirling together. There's the fact that they haven't played together very much when whole. There's the fact that Jalen Suggs continues to be like a really important part of the team that they clearly don't really know how to function without sometimes. And then there's all of this effort that they've expended over the course of the year to try to stay afloat. And I think did reasonably well Justin earlier in the year, but now find themselves just like unable to keep their heads above water. Although we should say finally proved capable of winning a game and even I should say two of their last three.

[Chris Ryan]

It's been a mess of late. It's. And it's been hard to watch because as you mentioned, like the offense gets in the mud. I guess we just didn't give Suggs enough credit for being the guy that unsticks everything happening there. I will say Franz has played very well since coming back. Paolo has been a little bit slower going there. So yeah, maybe his oblique was more damaged than Franz's oblique, but I kind of don't know why he hasn't really rounded back into form there. But I think you're right. I think it's one. It's just institutionally they're more on the prude side of things. They're more Thunder ish where they want to believe more in their developmental system and their moves. Even this off season they went out and got kcp, yes, but they also just brought back a bunch of other guys on deals that were favorable for them, long term deals that decline deals with team options, et cetera, et cetera. I think that's just who they are to their core. But also like if you're going to punch it, if you're going to outside of that and like try to upgrade you probably want to do it when you're on the upward trajectory and it looks like they're at the very least sliding, trying to maybe make sense of things. Maybe they know more about when Suggs, what his injury is and maybe he will be out longer than we realize. I don't know. I agree with you guys though. They're a perfect candidate for just adding this sort of like offensive guard who could spice up your offense immediately. Like, I mean, so I thought like for niece Simons, for instance, a guy we talked about with them so many years now at this point a guy from Florida I think would have welcomed a move there. Could have easily played the Cole Anthony role where he's just like on the bench most of the time, but you could play him in your starting lineup basically whenever you want him. Just doesn't seem who they are and maybe the timing just wasn't right there. Maybe it's more of an off season sort of thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe. So I, I don't even think you have to aim that quite that high. Like this, this feels like a great like Colin Sexton swing or somebody like that. Even, even a Jordan Clark.

[Big Waz]

So I mean something dude, I just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Think that there's, there's a way to look at this again. It's not like, oh, we're the Orlando Magic and this is our big push in, but we're going to invest some modest assets to make our team more survivable now. And it's just, it's just not there yet. I. The Cole Anthony thing, funny because like he is essential to their team right now. Like absolutely vital to trying to keep any sort of movement to their offense and yet is such a liability because of his size and also does the little guy thing where he's, he's working his ass off and as a result commits a lot of really bad fouls where he's trying to like chase down bigger players or body guys up diving into players legs. There's also that. But like I like, I, I commend his hustle and I, I commend his investment in trying to be the best version of Cole Anthony. He. But the Orlando Magic don't need Cole Anthony. They need someone like Ganford Simons or someone like Colin Sexton. They need someone with actual juice who's going to be plugged into that spot, frankly, even if it's just for this season.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So we'll see there. They're obviously a factor in that east race as we talked about with the Heat, the Pistons. I would imagine they'll probably stay in that range this season unless something really clicks. But as we saw earlier this season, when they're clicking, they could play on the level of any of these east teams beyond like maybe the First Cav, Celtics and Knicks, they're just like right there when they get have everything going. Rob, do you want to go with one of your questions?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I have one where, you know, we've talked a little bit about DeAndre Hunter's addition to the Cavs already and I think what I want to know most about that deal is not does DeAndre Hunter make them better? Clearly makes them better. He's a good player, talented player they just added to the rotation at the expense of another valuable contributor in Karis LeVert. Ultimately, George Niang minutes were useful but ultimately replaceable. He helps them, but does he change the way we think about and look at the Cavs? And by that I mean is DeAndre Hunter somebody who helps the Cavs be better in the matchups where they were already quite good and had advantages to to win those games by more or to build bigger margins or, or does he actually make a difference in the areas where they have trouble? And this is something that I think we're only going to be able to see in real time. We're only going to be able to see in the way that not only he works himself into the mix, but where is Cleveland comfortable diverting the ways it wants to play to go to the occasional DeAndre Hunter creation, to go to some pick and roll, some ISO from him.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So what. What would you say are the ones that they're deficient at?

[Rob Mahoney]

So for one, I think it's you can look at this from a skill set perspective or you can look at this from a matchup perspective. We've already talked some about Boston specifically like the Cavs trying to match up better with the Celtics. And that's length, right. That's defensive length. I think that is the primary value add there, in addition to some of what Hunter gives you as a shooter and a creator. But we also don't really know how the Cavs match up with the Knicks. They played once early in the season and that was so early. The Knicks did not have it together at all yet. But we're going to get a lot of evidence late as far as how those teams will actually play each other. The Pacers have actually done really well against the Cavs. I think the Bucks have it in them and have played the Cavs pretty, pretty tight a couple of times, but also got blown out once as as the Bucks are ought to do, depending on who's available night tonight. And so when I'm thinking about these teams, I'm trying to understand, like, where does Hunter's length on defense matter? Where does his, like, capacity for go to scoring? That's a little bit more valuable than what Max Struss can give you or Dean Wade can give you or even Caris LeVert can give you. Where. Where is that valuable? And where is the lineup flexibility of being able to play Hunter at the 4 in some matchups? Where is that going to really pay off? It's just Hunter at 68 is so different than a 65 max strus or. Or Isaac Okoro when he comes back at like, basically probably closer to 6 4, if we're being honest. Like, Dean Wade has some size, but he's also not as quick as DeAndre Hunter. And so are those. Are those the kinds of differences that mean something, or are they the kinds of differences that just make the Cavs look a little bit better at the things they were already good at?

[Big Waz]

Yeah, traditionally the answer's been no with DeAndre Hunter, but I would say the context in Atlanta has never been as solid as what is happening in Cleveland in terms of, you know, the guys in the backline defending behind him. Just having a system that everybody on the team is actually adhering to on defense, I think is a very key factor here. So maybe, like, he will be lifted up by the new context and circumstance. So, like, that's. That's yet to be seen offensively. I just don't buy that he's going to give you more. I don't know. I just. I just don't anticipate that they're going to go away from Garland and Mitchell and when they're, you know, giving it to Mobley to let DeAndre Hunter cook at times, I don't. I think his offensive contributions are going to be negligible. Honestly, this feels like a team that just needed more size, more umph on the wing, and they just didn't have anybody. This guy with this guy's sort of physical profile. And so the move made sense for them.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I like how he fills in that starting lineup because he does make their starting front court even more physical and a little bit bigger because he's a strong, powerful player in the way that, like, even a Max truce is not. And I also like to. To your earlier point, like, do they have the option to play a little bit smaller with him at the four if they need to do that? Because I do think we're going to get to the point where Jarrett Allen maybe can't play in some of these crunch time minutes, especially against a team like the Celtics, it's going to go five out when they're clicking. The problem, I think, is ultimately, like, Garland is going to have to defend somebody. And if the Celtics are the shining example or the team that you're going to have to get past, like, he has to guard what, at worst, Drew Holiday, who is a mountain of a man who could probably just power him into the basket or, or create problems there. And so. So on the one hand, I think you're right, Rob. I think ultimately they probably encounter the same glass ceiling that they ultimately had. I have to give them credit, though, they did go out and try to make the best possible version of themselves. And I do think, like, you know, considering the way the Celtics are a little iffy as we talked about, like, you know, maybe just getting a guy who can still help our math advantage with the three pointer, like, maybe this gives us more of a margin there in a matchup where it's like, oh, this is. Maybe this is more of a coin flip than we expected rather than we're just going to, this is, we're. We have the odds here.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, it's, it's a deal that's admittedly grown on me a little more. The more that I've sat with it. I just wonder, is this the kind of thing where you're going to look over the remainder of the Cav season and from a 10,000 foot perspective? You know, the on off numbers look great. Hunter's production looks consistent with what he was doing in Atlanta. Like an impressive contributor within the fabric of how the Cavs play. And then you watch them a couple of times in a week and you're like, like there's something here that's not quite jumping out at me in the way that I would like it to be jumped out at where look, that is the DeAndre Hunter experience. We've all been waiting for many things from DeAndre Hunter over the years, and this is the closest he's ever come to delivering on that. And so I want to give him appropriate credit. I want to give the Cavs appropriate credit for taking the kind of swing you're talking about. And I'm really eager to see how much of a. Whether he can be a transformative factor for them in any capacity or if he's just like a nice, modest ad at the desk.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep. Woz, you want to do your last.

[Big Waz]

One My last one. It's just monitoring the Phoenix situation and to see how it goes the rest of the season because obviously KD is pissed. But Bradley Bill also was just. He was put on a trade block. Like, literally. They made it known that they would take anything to have this guy and his deal no longer on the contract. You're hearing rumors that Budenholzer is kind of just like, I don't want to say checked out, but just like, it's not going as great as maybe some of us thought that it was going. So I don't want to say Phoenix is going to implode. I would hope that there's a lot more professionalism up and down that roster than to implode. But, like, because they didn't come out of the deadline with, you know, their intended targets, I'm really monitoring that really closely. And also, you know, it's nice they got rid of Nerk, who was obviously pissed, but now, again, there's still people back there who are upset. Devin Booker's having, you know, a strange season. It's just. It's just Phoenix is something that I'm monitoring really closely.

[Chris Ryan]

They flipped one of their future picks for, I believe, three other picks in order to chop up their pick in order to be able to make deals. And what they got out of that was dumping Yusuf Nurkic for the other Martin Bro and Vasily Micic, who I believe is already looking overseas to potentially play in euroleague. So they got a rotation player who can't shoot and, like, will be sort of helpful on the wing. And that is the help in order to write the ship that is careening vigorously toward those rocks and does not look like they're going anywhere. The vibes are awful. Kevin Durant isn't playing. We'll see if he comes back because he's just, like, so pissed and upset about what's going on there. Them trying to trade him back to Golden Z, and he's basically like, no, I don't want to fucking hang out with Draymond Green again. This is a mess. This might be the worst. We've had a lot of catastrophes in the NBA, including the Dallas Mavericks. Now, in their current state, this might be the worst of all time, at least in our lifetime in terms of, like, just, I guess, the Nets.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, yeah, come on. The Nets exist, but they're out more acknowledge their pain.

[Chris Ryan]

All right, yeah, the Nets were really bad, but, like, at the very least, they brought in, like, the. The whole Marks thing and they did the young player thing and just Building up guys. They got a long way to go before they even get to that point.

[Rob Mahoney]

And look, they have a lot a long way to go to even fight and secure for play in positioning. They're in such a dogfight to compete for anything of any relevance whatsoever. And the fact that that's where the Phoenix Suns are is an indictment of the whole experiment, of the, of the whole endeavor of what they have done in the Kevin Durant era. It doesn't work. And like none of the role players work in the context that they are being asked to provide. There's a lot of good guys here who could be a good shooter on a team, a good defender on a team, even a good big on a team. But you put all this talent out there together and it doesn't line up. There's not enough pressure on the ball. There's not enough help behind that pressure in terms of the cohesiveness of the offense. It doesn't move, it doesn't gel. There's not a consistent flow to anything that the Suns are trying to do. And so they do have enough singular shot creation really when Kevin Durant is out there to overcome some of that and win some games. But man, like I. The vibes are, are genuinely horrendous for a team that has as many wins as they have, which is like fine, you know, at 500 right now, at 26 and 26, but they feel like a sub Blazers competitor right now, right? Like they feel like they should be down in the Utah zone based on Vibes alone.

[Chris Ryan]

Rob, could you just like read my mind about where I was going for my second question?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I already know you're going to the Blazers at every opportunity.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, cause I have down here for my second most intriguing post deadline question. Are the Trailblazers the best team in the NBA? Because. Because right now over their past 12 games, they are 10 and 2 with the best defense in the entire NBA. It has been something to watch, something to behold because I was just ready for them to hit the tank button. They still might because after this, you know, we'll see how viable it is long term. But they've kind of like cleared the bar of the sagging for flag sweepstakes and they're very much, at the very least theoretically in the play in mix in the west and at this point they're. They're so far up in the standings, they might as well give it their best shot. At the very least, I think they've found something here. First and foremost defensively, where I think the Combination, I gotta say of Tumani Camara and Denny Abdia has, has paid dividends not only defensively where they're rock solid, but also they play with the flow. Not, not surprising. These are 2 Euro gu who can play like kind of on wall off the ball. The ball is pinging around deandre Ayton playing inspired basketball and it is a reminder that this is probably one of the most athletically gifted seven footer pluses we've probably ever seen. And if he just fucking tries, you could see how good he can be. And then you know, we could, we could talk about Scoot, we could talk about Shaden, but like those guys are finally starting to show things where those guys look like, I don't know how good in terms of like long term. Are they stars? Are they below that? Are they just like very good rotation players? We'll see but like at the very least we're seeing positive basketball. And for me, for someone who has to suffer through some of the earlier games, this has been a positive development.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, hugely positive development. Justin, for you personally, I'm wondering how, how would it hit you if for example the Blazers overtook the spurs and made the play in, but the spurs did not? Because you have bet us that the spurs will make the play in. But what happens if Portland makes it and they don't because they're basically neck and neck in the standings right now.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. They have more wins but are half a game back of the Spurs. I would be a little disappointed because I only root for myself in all aspects. But you know, it'd be nice to see some, some more competitive basketball because like I said, the dog days of the beginning of the season were, were quite bad. Just seeing Scoot Henderson play at like replacement level has been something to behold.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean make some actual shots. Scoot Henderson, I, it's been genuinely amazing to see him hit. Yeah, he's been hitting.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I don't know if you guys go ahead.

[Big Waz]

I think the Scoot thing is, is kind of the, the biggest part of this is that all right now this guy is actually looking like a player. And you know, most of the things that were his problem is like, like he was not turning the corner on anybody and he was bricking every single jump shot. Like it's not a combination you want from your point guard but you know, now that the shot is falling, I think it's cool. But again like to play the best defense in the NBA for even a 10 or 11, 12 game stretch, it takes a level of Buy in on from the coaching level that, you know, I didn't know that this team had within themselves. So to see these young guys come together and buy in on a defensive philosophy has been nice and you know, and these guys like play for each other too. It seems like these dudes kind of like each other, which is nice. And I think it's because like they don't have like this crazy amount of trade speculation and who's coming in and who's coming out. I think Grant has, obviously he's been on the trade. He's been in trade rumors basically since he left Denver. Um, but besides that, like nobody wanted to trade for Ayton. Um, you know, they're seeing what they have with all the rest of their young guys. I think it's nice that they feel like grounded in what they're doing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I, I don't know if I can get there with Aiden. That's going to be my personal journey. If deandre Aiden continues to be good, what will it take for me to believe that that is real and not a puff of smoke that's going to disappear as soon as I grasp at it. The Denny Abdia to Monica Mara thing that is just feels genuine. Feels like a real sustainable, reliable thing you can continue to build around or at least account for.

[Big Waz]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

They're not necessarily star level contributors, but Denny's proven to be a really versatile player to money. Kamara we already knew had incredible defensive potential and I think is finding new and exciting ways to provide other areas of value and stay on the floor. I mean, you know, when. Which is always kind of an uphill battle for guys who are more defense first coming into the league. Everything else is a little tbd. And that's okay for where the Blazers are right now. Like they're going to be improv, they're going to be provisional at this stage in their development. And to see Scoot rise to the challenge of some of that provisional offense, to see Simons find his shot again, to see Shaden Sharp, who's always had moments, have them a little bit more consistently, all that stuff is sick. I just don't know if deandre Ayton is the part of that that I'm going to like really hang my hat on just yet until I see it and see it and see it again over and over and over for more than three weeks.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I'll say this one, yes, we have to give Billups a lot of credit because the one thing he has done and shown that he can do is speak to some of these guys and he kind of challenged some of their bigger guys on this team. Scoot and Shaden in particular. Shaden had to move to the bench because he wasn't playing defense. He basically set a bar where it's like you're not going to get minutes, you're not going to get featured unless you do play defense. And so both of those guys responded to that and credit to Bill for doing that. But I do think like AEN has the sort of crazy that I think every team needs. I think a lot about Draymond Green being kind of the devil on Steph's shoulder. Like Ayton, I think it's a bad, bad hold on. Gets a bit. Gets a bad rap to some degree because I think he's more jovial than he is like cancerous to a team's chemistry. But he's a lot, he's. He's a lot as a human, he's a lot as a personality. And this is a team that to Watts point I think is a lot of good guys just like trying to make their way in the NBA. But they need like the spark of it all. And I think Scoot is part of that. I think part of the reason why he's done so well so quickly is like the shots started falling and then playing with that confidence has kind of trickled down to the rest of this game. I had one person tell me he's like he's an alpha in terms of his personality and you can kind of see that he wants to be the leader. We'll see if he'll get there this year. But Ayton is like, he's the emotional, like he's the guy that like when you're having a bad day he's going to get you up because he's yelling in your face about something ridiculous like, like, like video games are about the sandwich that he just had. And so I don't know if it's long term, but if he's buying into that, that's all you need because like I said before, he is a giant spectacular athlete who could probably do whatever the fuck he wants if he was just engaged enough of the season. It's just that it hasn't been the case throughout his career.

[Rob Mahoney]

Isaiah, let's just clip this audio. Like we're just gonna need to play this back in a month and we're gonna have to remind Justin that the, the spirited defense of deandre Aiden was that he's yelling about sandwiches like he's a welcome personality. Like I appreciate what he brings to the table in that regard.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I think this will ultimately end in probably a rig or two. They already lost to the Wolves the other night without Anthony Edwards. I believe in that game. And so, like, there are limitations here. Also, when you look at the teams that they've beaten, it's like, yes, this is an elongated stretch and we should pay credence to how well they played. On the other hand, they got a lot of teams in this state where they're just like, not quite right. They got two games against the Suns, and right before the deadline, they got two games against the Magic. And we talked about how they're kind of a mess here. So things do balance out. I think we'll get to the point at the end of the season, we're like, why the fuck did they win so many games and why weren't they tanking? Because they. What they actually need is a true blue superstar. Because Scoot as good as he's been, I think he's going to top out as like a, you know, a very good starter, I think is his ceiling. Now, Shaden probably not a star, but it clearly does something offensively if you can compensate for them defensively. But for now, not bad. We're talking about them on a podcast, even if it is in the hour plus minute range. And I didn't really have to force it that much. Some, but not much.

[Rob Mahoney]

We did give you a lob, you know, you could bring anything you want to the table and this is worthy of discussion. The Blazers have been good enough for this kind of conversation. Without a doubt.

[Chris Ryan]

We didn't even get into the 20 or 30 minutes of to Monica Maro that I have in my back pocket whenever you guys want. So if you want to save the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Good stuff for group chat after dark, that's subscription only content.

[Chris Ryan]

There you go. All right, why don't we wrap it there? We'll be back later this week. I won't be back later this week. I'm taking Thursday off. We haven't talked about this. Yes, but hopefully, hopefully our friends will come up with something good for you. But we'll. We'll be back as a podcast on Thursday. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you, Ven Cruz. Talk to you soon. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. gambling problem, call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.