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The Ringer NBA Show
The Luke Kornet Game Saves the Celtics. Plus, Wolves March On, and Next Questions After the Draft Lottery. | Group Chat
01:16:36
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- [00:00]
Justin Barrier
This episode is brought to you by Acura's all new adx, a compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything like hitting the road with available all wheel drive and staying connected thanks to Google built in. Plus you hear your music at its best with an available Bang and Olufsen Premium sound system, the all new Acura ADX crafted to match your energy. Visit Acura.com ADX to learn more. Google is a trademark of Google LLC. You're listening to the Ringer NBA show presented by FanDuel. America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back, relax and track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. If you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.
- [01:29]
Rob Mahoney
Hello and.
- [01:30]
Justin Barrier
Welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Watts. We're gonna be talking about a lot tonight. We're gonna talk about next questions about the draft lottery. Going to talk about the Wolves marching on to another Western Conference finals. We have to start with the Celtics saving their season. Specifically was we need to talk about Luke Cornett because we drafted him in the last round of our white Americans draft. Specifically you drafted him I believe with your last pick. Did you know at the time that you were galvanizing him to the point where he was going to save Boston season in this crucial game?
- [02:04]
Big Watts
I did not. In fact the reason why he was picked so low is because he's like he kind of wasn't getting as much love and burn as he did last season and he kind of became a forgotten man even by his own coach Joe Missoula who finally mercifully got KP to hell about the game and let Lou Cornette cook and he was incredible. I think he his his presence turned the entire game around and extended Boston season his presence.
- [02:33]
Rob Mahoney
But by extension Yalls presence, I mean he did mention in his post game presser that he was inspired by the white American draft that he felt underrated underrepresented in the white American draft. So congratulations to both of you for drafting him late slash. Not drafting him in your case, Justin.
- [02:47]
Justin Barrier
Well, I think another thing that came out of these postgame press conferences, the actual postgame press conferences, was Joe Missoula saying that Kristaps Porzingis couldn't breathe in this game and that he could have gone if absolutely necessary. But I think a big part of this, Rob, is just taking KP's minutes away from them because he's been such a struggle this postseason. I give all credit to Lou Cornet. He was amazing in this game, but like it was a real addition by subtraction and then Cornet added on top of that.
- [03:12]
Rob Mahoney
That's the thing. I think that's why over these last couple of games we were waiting for this sort of transition point and there's always, you know, it's interesting, these are tough decisions, especially when a guy is injured or sick. Especially when a guy is a really important part of your team when fully healthy. But Kristaps Porzingis has not been good in this series. He was a disaster in his first stint. The Knicks do not respect him like that. I think that's one of the biggest problems is he can't even just like park on the perimeter and pretend to be a spacer. He has no gravity in these games. And so if he doesn't have gravity, he can't breathe. As Joe Mazula is saying, he's not moving well. There's just not really a place for him in the series. And like that brings us no joy to say. But that's. Those are the facts on the ground for Chris Dep Sportzingis. And then in comes Luke Cornett channeling the spirit of Bill Russell. Like, this was an unbelievable help, side rim protector and shot blocker in this game, to say nothing of the screening and rolling on perfect 5 for 5 from the field overall, like the way he's helping them clean the glass against the Knicks team, that's, that's hitting the boards as hard as they can, just as important as a role player can be in a game like this. And you know, credit to Boston across the board for coming with the requisite sort of fight. And ultimately this is a game where they can throw their Luke Cornet size like off speed pitches and they can get by on some like the rallying cry after Jason Tatum's injury. Now you got to keep doing it and that's where it gets harder and harder as you go.
- [04:32]
Big Watts
Yeah, I thought he just made life Miserable for the Knicks in the paint. Um, they've been comfortable getting to, at worst, floater range. And tonight they didn't even want to do that with Luke Cornette down there, much less get all the way to the basket, which I thought was, you know, basically the key to making the Knicks offense into a waste of time, especially in that second half. And offensively, like, he was just there being huger than every single person on the floor. And so, you know, I thought that was a boon as well. Obviously, you know, the main guys, JB and White, like, they carried the offense for sure, but defensively, to me, is where they actually won this game and just completely put the Knicks in the clamps in the second half.
- [05:19]
Rob Mahoney
See, I'm a little torn on that because this was like, by the numbers, one of the Knicks more successful offensive games of the series so far. And when you think about it, it's like I. Like we saw Cornette's impact in exactly the way you're describing. We saw them getting out of the paint. This was also a game where the Knicks finally hit, like a requisite number of shots from three. It's also a game where they marched to the free throw line and were able to kind of buoy the fact that they couldn't hit anything else inside. And then ultimately I felt like they struggled sort of matching. Even though you get a pretty good Jalen Brunson game scoring wise, a pretty good cat scoring game, you're getting Josh Hart with an unexpected 24. They just, like struggle to keep up with the Cornets and the Pritchards and the Jalen Browns, and it's like the. The pure volume of Celtics who were contributing, I felt like might have gotten the better of the Knicks today.
- [06:05]
Big Watts
Yeah, I guess. I mean, their offense was excellent too. I guess for me, like Josh Hart splashing four, five, threes, I don't consider to be the result of fantastic New York Knicks offense. Right. I think this is a guy just making his threes that night. And so it looks amazing. I just thought how, you know, they basically made the Knicks look like the Celtics on offense, quite frankly. Just station to station. Very static, very predictable, very one on one. Everything's happening very late in the clock. Um, they just made the Knicks, to me, the offense look so bad and uncomfortable. And they weren't, you know, basically the previous games, it was Brunson sort of getting whatever the hell he wanted against the Derrick Whites, the Peyton Pritchards, and putting Boston's defense in a box. Al Horford, he was just finessing basically, last game and then destroying the integrity and foundation of Boston's defense. And, you know, everybody else being able to cook off of that. That just straight up didn't happen in this game. And I think, to me, that was the difference.
- [07:13]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I think to thread the needle between what you guys are both saying is, I think the third quarter just was such a catastrophe for the Knicks. Like, then their offense was just nonexistent. And in that third, third quarter alone, Cornet had five of his seven blocks in 22 overall minutes. But also Jalen Brunson somehow accumulated five fouls in a single quarter. The Knicks were 4 for 20 shooting in that one quarter. Everything just fell apart. We've seen, like, in other games, an avalanche happening, typically, offense just overwhelming another opponent. The Pacers did it the other night, the Thunder in game two against the Nuggets. This time, it just felt like everything gummed up for the Knicks, and then that was it.
- [07:53]
Big Watts
I'm not a referee guy. Y' all know I hate the referee stuff. But, like, when I watch what gets not called in the OKC and Denver series, like, these guys are beating each other to death. And, like, some of the calls that Boston got to now, like, damn, if I'm Denver OKC watching, I'm like, how the hell is that a foul? Like, on what planet? Yeah, so I thought they got the benefit of that tonight, too.
- [08:19]
Rob Mahoney
I know we're talking about all the fun stuff up front, officiating accepted, but, like, the Luke Cornet elements, the wild card elements, to me, this is an amazing Jaylen Brown game. Like, first and foremost, top line. That is a guy who has to show up in a game like this for the Celtics to survive. And I thought he played with a level of control that we just have not really seen from him very often in this series. He's been a little bit off balance in a lot of these previous games where he's, like, trying to kind of impose his will, trying to use his size and strength to his advantage, but being a little too aggressive in some spots, too passive in other spots. Not fully Jalen Brown in the way that we saw, say, during last year's championship run. It was almost like being down 31 took some of the pressure off him, and he. He played like a free and easy game, and he was able to attack at will and leverage his strengths and set everyone up career high. 12 assists. I just thought he was really, really sensational. Really, really remarkable work. And also, like, defensively, was getting after it, guarding Jalen Brunson. A bunch in this game just was. Did everything required for the Celtics to get through this.
- [09:19]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I agree. I just felt like he had a level of restraint that was intentional in part because Tatum wasn't there. It was almost like he realized that he was the lone adult, like, watching over everything, and he decided to be more careful with how he approached thing. There was that one play late in the game where he was going to go for the three, but then wisely made a decision consciously. You could see, like, the wheels just spin and be like, no, this isn't the right shot to take. Let the closeout come. He drove, and then the big collapse on him. He had Drew Holiday for a pretty nice time down low. And I was like, oh, that's like the type of floor game that we typically see from Tatum wise. But it just felt like he was like the one connecting all the dots for everything that they were doing.
- [10:00]
Big Watts
Yeah, I think you're right about the patience and restraint, especially. You know, it's been a few days of people everywhere complaining about this guy's handle or lack thereof in this series, like, yo, this guy can't dribble. Seriously. And tonight he was just methodical attacking, you know, the. The favorable Knick matchups that he had. I thought he did an excellent job of getting downhill again. Broken record with the Celtics, but, yeah, getting to the paint matters. Yeah, Drew Holiday, you're bigger than a lot of the guys on the Knicks. Get to the freaking paint and get downhill on these guys. I thought Jaylen Brown was excellent at perfectly calibrating that. And you know, it's the Celtics. You're not going to hesitate to fire when you have a wide open three and you're Jaylen Brown and you have a high quality jump shot. So, yeah, I thought the patience was very telling. He didn't seem rushed. He's like, you know what? I know where the help's coming from. If they don't send it, I'm going to be able to batter and bruise these. These Nick defenders. Even somebody like Josh Hart, who I think is a stout defender. Jaylen Brown is just way bigger than this dude.
- [11:01]
Justin Barrier
And speaking of Josh Hart, the only questionable decision Brown probably made was giving him the old corkscrew.
- [11:08]
Rob Mahoney
That was something.
- [11:10]
Justin Barrier
The shoving match. Like, what was he thinking there?
- [11:14]
Rob Mahoney
I would love to know the thought process. We gotta get the full JB comments on that one. That was. That was a move of some kind.
- [11:21]
Justin Barrier
Of the old doorknob or. I don't know what you're calling that one, but, man, I Guess it was effective.
- [11:26]
Rob Mahoney
Incredibly strange plays. It's like Josh Hart on the receiving end of some serious blows in this game. Like, Josh Hart played a sensational game within. It was like a race against the clock because he got smacked so hard across the brow, his face was gushing blood. And then the rest of the game was like, can you finish this in time before your eyes swell shut? And yet here's Josh Hart making all the usual Josh Hart plays. Nailing the threes that you mentioned was like, he came up huge for the Knicks. It's just ultimately, they didn't quite have enough against the Celtics team that really had to redefine everything that they were doing without Jason Tatum. Clearly, they're playing their same style, like they know what they want to do. But Jaylen Brown has to be that measured, adult in the way that we described and can't just be the sort of, like, mercurial wild card element that he is in some of the other games where he's really successful. Derek White had to really put his foot on the gas, and he was amazing. He was awesome.
- [12:18]
Justin Barrier
Look like Halberton out there.
- [12:20]
Rob Mahoney
Can he just. Can he just do this? Like, can Derek White just put up All Star numbers whenever he wants? I honestly think he might be able to, but he has to kind of override the sort of mental restraint of like, I'm going to take some shots that are not great shots. I'm going to force it a little bit, especially from three such a good shooter, and they need him to be that without Jason Tatum.
- [12:39]
Big Watts
So what I thought was interesting, too, and I think you guys are getting to this. Like, the Knicks weren't sure how they wanted to guard Boston today.
- [12:47]
Rob Mahoney
No.
- [12:48]
Big Watts
If you watch game four, they obviously, like, they had decided how they're going to handle every single pick and roll combination, every single off ball screen, every single pin down. Like, they had a plan for what they would do when Tatum would scream for Brown or Horford would scream for Tatum or whatever. It didn't seem like they had a fixed plan about how they wanted to handle every single sort of offensive action. And they were giving up layups off of the pick and roll. So many dunks, so many guys coming wide open for threes. I would expect that that gets tightened up, you know, as the series goes on, but it's definitely something that I noticed. It felt like their defense was not completely nailed down in terms of how they wanted to try to stop these guys, which I think was a major factor. And, you know, Derrick White, God bless him, I Don't think of him as a guy who just goes out and get 40 when he feels like it. But it's. He felt like that guy tonight.
- [13:46]
Rob Mahoney
He certainly did. I think too, that three guard look for the Celtics in particular is. Is still quite a bit different from how they usually look with Tatum and Brown out there or some combination thereof out there. Having White and Pritchard and Holiday plus Jaylen Brown, plus one of Luke Cornett and Al Horford, that really kind of broke the game open a little bit for Boston. And that's the kind of thing where you're right, like on film, you're going to figure out ways to take things away from Peyton Pritchard, who was also really good in this game. You're going to find ways to close the windows on Derrick White to make life more challenging for Jaylen Brown, like make his reads a little more complicated. There's a lot on film, I think, for the Knicks to uncover in terms of how they can approach this stuff.
- [14:23]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, it was unfortunate that it took a little while. It took basically KP being have be sat at half in order for them to pivot to the one big lineup. Because to start off with double bigs when you. Peyton Pritchard at the very least played so well in the previous game. Like, I was just so disappointed because that is so often the muscle memory that Joe Missoula turns to and it just wasn't the right move. And it felt like at the very least like he was able to get it off it quick enough that it didn't damage them. But like part of it was probably White just hitting those first four threes and everything opened up from there. But it just also was like there was more intentionality, there was more flow and just more physicality and purpose to everything that the Celtics were doing offensively in a way that they hadn't had this entire series at this point.
- [15:04]
Rob Mahoney
I think that's such a trap too, in terms of the rotation stuff. Like on one level you can look at the Celtics who are actually going to play in this game and say, okay, well we have if Chris Taps Porzingis is going to play. And clearly they were planning for the idea that he might at least give it a go. You want to have Luke Cornett off the bench. You know, like you can kind of balance your rotation, your best players to have a good like toggling between starters and bench and you could go through kind of the same mental dynamic with Peyton Pritchard. And it's like if you start him, then all Of a sudden, you don't have any ball handlers on your bench. All of a sudden, you don't have that in reserve. These are the playoffs. Like, you just. Like one of those three guards gets an early hook, they're all going to play huge minutes. Peyton Pritchard played huge minutes in this game. If you want to. If you want to start him and play the first four and then give him the quick hook, let the other two guards play, and then toggle in and out as you go. Like, there just needs to be more ball handling on the floor. There needs to be more shot creation on the floor. And I thought in particular, like, we already kind of hammered kp, who just wasn't good and is clearly ill. When he and Al were on the floor together, they were just, like, stepping all over each other. Like, they just. For two guys who have played together a lot in their careers, or at least a fair amount, given what KP's injuries have allowed over these last two years, just didn't seem like they knew where to be. And that was a huge problem in and of itself.
- [16:14]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I'm pretty much done with Hacker Robinson at this point. He made all six of his free throws.
- [16:21]
Rob Mahoney
Put it to bed. We salute you, Mitch.
- [16:24]
Justin Barrier
I get it. It just. That's the type of thing I don't want to see in a closeout game. You're almost like, adding this chaotic element into what you're doing. And everything was going so well, yet they kept going for it until he made all six of them. Just no more. I'm done with it.
- [16:41]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I have no argument.
- [16:42]
Justin Barrier
Clearly.
- [16:42]
Rob Mahoney
Clearly, Joe Missoula on some level agrees, because he did.
- [16:45]
Big Watts
It's not basketball. So, yeah, I would love to see it legislated out. But, you know, at the same time, he made the free throw, so hopefully that'll be a deterrent enough.
- [16:55]
Justin Barrier
So, Rob, if you're tibs right now and you're grinding through the tape, you're probably on hour three, because the game was over three hours ago. What are we seeing? Like, what are we doing differently?
- [17:06]
Rob Mahoney
I think a lot of it is the way you're responding, the way your team is rotating, and how you're sort of tailoring that away from the Jayson Tatum version of the Celtics into this version of the Celtics. Like, I thought was nailed it. Like, the number of runaway plays coming out of, like, pretty simple screening action tells me this is just not a team that's anticipating the correct threats, that understands, like, where the priorities are on the floor and they're overreacting to stuff like hugging up on shooters and underreacting to, I don't know, like the seven foot dude who's a foot away from the basket and you can throw a lob too. Like, I think a lot of it is just prioritization and understanding. Okay, the terms of engagement here have changed and yes, we want to attend to all these shooters. Yes, we want to stick with all these actions, but like, you got to hammer down your actual paint defense first and you got to make sure you're taking away the easiest possible looks because this is still a Celtics team that can be susceptible to settling for some shots that shouldn't and in fact probably should settle for some of those shots under the circumstances. Like the, the bar has changed for Boston in terms of what their best case looks are going to look like. And so with that you can, you can play into those tendencies if you're, if you're in New York. I think.
- [18:10]
Justin Barrier
We didn't end up talking about Tatum because we weren't recording in the next couple days. I like the, the fact that they were able to bounce back so resolutely in this game. It almost felt like they weren't affected by it at all. If anything, it was a galvanizing effect, but obviously huge loss wise. I'm almost like still wrapping my mind around it because it's the type of thing that will not only affect one of the main contenders in the NBA, but it will also ripple out to the rest of the league. Like this is potentially changing the face of, of the title race for perhaps maybe two even longer seasons depending on how extreme the Celtics get with their off season moves.
- [18:48]
Big Watts
Yeah, I think there was an idea that the two Jays were, you know, basically nailed to the floor of the franchise and everything else had the possibility to move, be moved on from. And you wonder if that becomes expedited because it's like Jayson Tatum's contract is on the books. So that means you're going to pay that crazy tax bill. And it's like without having the benefit of a legitimate bonafide championship threat. So you wonder if they even accelerate the plan to sort of wind down this great team even faster. That's what I was wondering because, you know, I think there's a way a team like this would just be stubborn and be like the 93, 94 bulls after Jordan retired. Obviously that's a different circumstance and just be like, whatever. We still have a great culture, we still have great players on this team. We're going to be hella competitive in the Eastern Conference, even with our roster being what it is and just keep going. But, like, the number of years that they've been paying into, you know, this tax and this onerous ass, you know, second apron and all this crap that the owners begged for, it just makes it seem like, what would be the point of that? Like, outside of just being like, this is our culture, money be damned, we're good. Like, the team that we just saw tonight, why can't they be that good in the regular season next year? Right? If the new owner wants to endear themselves to the fans, be like, we're not folding up the tent. We're bringing our guys back, and we're going to have a great season next year and be just as competitive and all of that stuff, and then we're back into championship mode as soon as JT comes back.
- [20:43]
Rob Mahoney
I think the real problem it presents, and we've been talking about this for a while, and you were kind of alluding to it. There was as far as, like, you're going to have to make financial decisions on some of these guys at certain points, and we've already heard the whispers.
- [20:54]
Big Watts
What are you talking about?
- [20:55]
Rob Mahoney
You got, you got free agent Luke Cornette, you got free agent Al Horford. Also, like, between, like, the Drew Holiday decision, Like, the finances of this were already that kind of pinch. And what this changes to me is at this point, not only do you have the financial pinch, you have the time pinch. Like, Al Horford and Drew Holiday, two of the most important members of your team are no longer on Jayson Tatum's timeline. Like, Jason Tatum is going to miss probably all of next season, maybe even some more time after that. As far as, like, getting right and looking like Jayson Tatum again, Al Horford is 38 years old. Jrue Holiday is 34 years old and already showing, like, a little bit of being 34 years old. Like, by the time Jayson Tatum looks like Jayson Tatum, those two guys are not going to be as important to your team anymore. And yet they may still be quite expensive for your team. So how you navigate that is quite thorny.
- [21:45]
Justin Barrier
And on top of that, Kristaps Porzingis going to be 30 in August. You might be saying, like, oh, that's young enough to where, like, maybe there's a Runway for when Tatum comes back. But obviously the injuries are mounting concerns to the point where we don't know we're going to get from every season. Also an expiring next year, even. I think that. I think the tension Point is really Derek White because he's the type of guy, under no circumstances would a winning team want to just fork over. But you have to, I think, start to consider that like at a certain point we need to reboot in order to hit the second phase of Tatum. Do we actually want to get ahead of that? Because also when you're thinking about the transaction math of all this, like, how much are you getting back for Drew? How much are you getting back for Porzingis, considering his injury history? Some of these other guys are just like kind of rotation players and so like, would they go out and trade White? Because I think, like, as I'm talking through this in my head, I'm starting to wonder if Brown is actually the guy that you can't trade, if only because he's the one that perfectly aligns with with Tatum's timeline. Like when Tatum comes back two seasons from now, he's going to be late 20s, early 30s, like he will be the one ready to run. And so I also think you get into the issue of like, who wants to trade for Brown, considering he's making super max money, but isn't one of the like five to 10 game changing players in the NBA. And so like, I guess this is a long winded way of saying like, I actually think Brown, oddly enough is the guy you don't trade when for a while it seemed like inevitably because he makes so much, you might have to.
- [23:11]
Big Watts
Yeah, I think it'd be insane to move on from Brown to like not believe that you can eventually put an absolute bonafide contender back together around Tatum and Brown. I think Tatum is young enough where I think he's going to come back and be a bonafide all star starter type of player when he comes back and get right. I just think he's going to modify his game. I think it's going to be more, you know, interior oriented and I don't want to like be hot taking. I think this might be a blessing for his actual approach to the game where it's just like, you know what, let me just go out and be stronger and bigger than every single wing that I go up against. And I think his game would benefit from that response instead of being like, yo, I'm not the dude that tries to dance on the perimeter that much anymore. And yeah, like, if things go well, Jason Tatum is going to be back in October of 2026. It's just a year, just a year without, without the guy. And you know, they could look forward to being like 2026, 27. We're going to be back to trying to compete for the NBA championship again.
- [24:20]
Rob Mahoney
I do think we kind of zoomed into the team building part of this. Like, this does just suck. Like, it sucks seeing any player go down. Jayson Tatum, I know, absorbs a lot of criticism, a lot of concern, trolling a lot of grief about who he is as a person and the way he presents himself in the nature of his game. Like we participate in some of that on this podcast. Fundamentally, he's a top five or so player in the NBA and he's a guy who shows up and fucking place. Like, he does not miss games. He plays huge minutes, loads, carries an incredible responsibility for a landmark franchise in the NBA. Like, it is never lost on me how much he puts on his shoulders and how successful ultimately he's been to this point. Crowned with the title last season. And it, it sucks that we don't get to see the Celtics get a proper defense of that title. Granted, they were probably going to lose that game that he went down against, like to the Knicks anyway. They were going to be in three.
- [25:08]
Big Watts
One was on its way to being cooked.
- [25:10]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it definitely seemed that way. But like, maybe they have a chance to come back from 3:1. Like, let's, let's see the, the champ.
- [25:16]
Big Watts
Like the championship results to call the series, guys, I would have been like.
- [25:19]
Rob Mahoney
They'Re that kind of team. Like with Tatum, they're that kind of team. And without him, as we're saying, we're just going to have to radically rethink the way we categorize the Boston Celtics within the landscape of the league and kind of like what they're going to be capable of for the next year.
- [25:34]
Big Watts
Plus, and to Justin's point, if I'm trying to shed salary on this team, I'm not looking at Derrick White like Jrue Holiday and kp. Figure it out. Figure out how to get rid of one of those dudes or both. Derrick White can't be the guy that walks out the door.
- [25:48]
Justin Barrier
I think it could change maybe how they view what they're looking for in return. Like, can you actually think about draft picks now? Because now we're like looking maybe three years ahead. We're like looking to hit the ground, run. If anything, this is maybe a silver lining that, like, they had to reboot in some form or fashion. It's actually harder coming off a second title to be like, shit, we got to trade Drew Holiday now just because we can't afford him like that. The discussion becomes a little Bit more easy to talk yourself into there. But I will say it was odd in a good way that when they announced that Tatum was out, they announced that he had surgery, which was like the next day after. I've never seen a player suffer an Achilles tear and then the following day already have surgery to the point where they can announce that. And so like clearly he's going to hit the ground running from this. Like he's just a maniac worker. And so like I doubt like he won't be all star level or anything like catastrophe like that. But it sucks because like you were saying for the past, what, half decade plus of NBA basketball, this guy has been consistent because he's always playing. There's just going to be such a void because he's just not going to be out there. And it's just going to be weird.
- [26:55]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it's going to be very weird. I mean it's going to be weird in the Eastern Conference in general figuring out like who the kind of tent pole teams are going to be. The Cavs, just Halliburton's music, your words, not mine was, I'm just saying like the Cavs further away their season. The Celtics are going to be a change team for the near future. There's a, there's a lot of opportunity here, whether it's for the Knicks, whether.
- [27:17]
Big Watts
The Pacers traded to the west, maybe.
- [27:20]
Justin Barrier
Cooper flag going to Dallas, like can we get just like one guy into the Eastern Conference? God damn. We're going to talk about that later. I do want to talk about that because the imbalance is just so fucking nuts at this point. This episode is brought to you by gnc. When it comes to what you put into your body, the bar is never too high. For 90 years, GNC has set that bar with elite quality standards across all their science backed health and wellness products. As America's most trusted nutritional supplement retailer, GNC is committed to helping you live well through expert advice, personalized solutions and the determination to help you achieve your goals. GNC live well. Shop on GNC.com or your nearest store location. The Minnesota Timberwolves punch their ticket to yet another Western Conference finals. Congrats to them. A convincing win, I guess in game five. Question mark. Or it was a convincing when they let it slip away and then ended up with a moderately convincing win. How are you feeling was about the Wolves overall? Did they talk you into them being like a legitimate Finals contender at this point? I know but like, I mean based on. Purely on math, yeah, they're in the Conference. There's gonna be four teams left, and there's one. They're one.
- [28:42]
Rob Mahoney
We like their chances.
- [28:43]
Big Watts
You know, they're in the conference finals, so they're legit. It's just. I can't shake the feeling of the game one that I watched with Steph on the floor. Like, it felt like these guys were ready for this challenge. And the fact that Steph Curry just goes down with an injury after one quarter of this series, like, I know it would have been nice for us as fans to see that group that remained make Minnesota sweat more. I just think it was just a tall task to be like Jimmy Butler and Pajemski and Kaminga and Moses Moody. Like, these guys, Buddy healed were going to beat Minnesota in this series. Granted, again, I think they should have made them sweat more. I think Golden State could have played much better, even considering the circumstances. But this series was decided for me. I knew Steph wasn't coming back.
- [29:37]
Rob Mahoney
This.
- [29:37]
Big Watts
This, like, these hamstring things take forever to heal and guys come back after a month off. Then three games in tweaked again, you know, Like, I. I just knew Steph was gone. So I kind of, like, lost interest in the idea that this series could be meaningful in any way. So, like, Minnesota's done their part. They beat the hell out of the Lakers. Okay. They got a diminished Golden State team. So what? They beat the hell out of them. And now they're sitting pretty just waiting for that. The winner of that bloodbath of the series on the other side of the bracket.
- [30:11]
Rob Mahoney
I would say they have a pretty vested interest in who they should want the winner of that series to be. Not just because of the regular season series in which the Wolves were quite successful against the Nuggets, but in this game, the Wolves turn the ball over on, like, 20% of their possessions. Yeah, Golden State's pretty good at that.
- [30:28]
Big Watts
Yeah.
- [30:29]
Rob Mahoney
Imagine Oklahoma City, like, translating the problems to that series. Like, the Wolves are a team that for all of their strengths and there are many of them and I want to get into to them, they will inevitably blunder. Like, they're just gonna do it. They're gonna throw the ball all over their place. They're gonna make some very weird decisions. Ant got ripped twice at the top of the floor by Buddy Heald and Moses Moody.
- [30:48]
Big Watts
That's insane.
- [30:49]
Rob Mahoney
Like, that's just stuff that's gonna happen with the Wolves. And so, yeah, against Denver, I think they are gonna fare pretty well. Like, we've seen that matchup before, granted, without Kat. And now With Julius Randle and Dante, like, that's a meaningful shift. Oklahoma SE is a very different proposition for them that I. I don't love how they match up there.
- [31:06]
Justin Barrier
You know, I've had this. This feeling burbling deep inside the guts that, like, I don't know, it feels like this is the Wolves year, you know, And I. I hear the logical case that the Thunder are a bad matchup for them. But as things were rolling, let's say the third quarter, I was like, I see it. I see the vision. And especially if, like, the Thunder aren't hitting, maybe the size advantage of a Rudy comes more to bear as opposed to, like, all their. Their drivers attacking Rudy. Now you have the advantage of having size. Obviously. The Wolves have the marriage of size plus athleticism on the perimeter, whereas, like, a lot of the Thunder players, a little bit more life, a little bit more easy to push around. I'm like, I could see ant superstar. Obviously, they're dealing, they're struggling with Jokic being the superstar. Can aunt play somewhere near that level in order to take over a series? The vision is there. But then, man, then the fourth quarter comes. Oh, my God. And it's like the seventh turnover for him. That's going to be 14 turnovers against a Thunder team. That's just like, this is what they.
- [32:02]
Big Watts
Do again, I don't count Minnesota out of a series against anybody. Obviously, Denver, they've kicked their asses up and down the court for like, seven straight games now, it feels like. And you know, we're watching the Thunders show their vulnerability in this nugget series, right? So I think they have a great shot as anybody, you know, I would say, right. They have as good a shot as anybody to get to the finals, in my opinion. Right. I don't see like, a OKC series as like some crazy, lopsided series like, say, Minnesota and a diminished, you know, Golden State, right, Where it's just like, it's so obvious, the disadvantages. That being said, it's just. I don't know, man. I don't know if I could trust these guys over the course of a damn conference finals.
- [32:50]
Rob Mahoney
That's what it is like. And it is not overwhelming. You're right. Like, I would. I wouldn't think the Thunder would be crazy favorites that those are going to be lopsided games. It's just like, when push comes to shove, what do you trust? And there are these two incredibly distinct versions of the Wolves, and one of them is just tripping over themselves on possessions. There's they have no business doing it.
- [33:08]
Big Watts
And one of them looks like the best team in the NBA.
- [33:11]
Rob Mahoney
One of them shot 36 of 47 from two in this game. 77 fucking percent from two. Like, they just looked like the bigger, more physical, like, demolishing team in a matchup like this where they had every reason to do it. And like, Julius Randle. Yeah, the shot's going to come and go. Bodying guys is forever. Rudy Gobert, I thought, had a really, a really strong offensive game, but also obviously was so instrumental to their defense. I thought his help was tremendous. Jade McDaniel's help was tremendous. Like, these guys felt really, really connected at certain points and really, really out of their minds at other points. And, like, that's a tough team to bet on in the conference finals. But if you get more of one than the other, all of a sudden you're in the finals. You get more of one than the other again, all of a sudden you're champions. Like, crazier things have happened.
- [33:55]
Justin Barrier
Bodying guys is forever. Do we need, like, a Julius Randall Nike ad with that?
- [34:02]
Rob Mahoney
Send me a quote. You know, I'll. Let me. Let me get involved over there.
- [34:06]
Justin Barrier
His Skechers. I forgot. He's a Sketchers guy.
- [34:08]
Rob Mahoney
Is he a Sketchers guy still?
- [34:10]
Justin Barrier
He's a Sketchers guy. Yeah.
- [34:12]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, never mind. I don't want to be involved with Skechers. Sorry.
- [34:15]
Justin Barrier
I will say yet again, we talked about it pretty much every pod. We've talked about the Wolves. Like, Julius Randle, man. He's gone from like, oh, is this contract not going to be that bad? To like, oh, like, they. They got to bring him back. He's playing pretty well, too. Like, is he, like, actually the driving.
- [34:32]
Big Watts
Force of this fucking $50 million a year?
- [34:35]
Justin Barrier
He's essential to this team in a way that I never expected.
- [34:40]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. I have no idea what. What, like, forget the real world implications, Justin. What is going to happen to Julius Randle in our next top 100 voting? Is he going to be, like, the 15th best player in the NBA? Because he's 15th best player in the NBA.
- [34:53]
Justin Barrier
The Julius Randle yo yoing on that list is hilarious because one year he's 60, the next year he's in the top 20 and making all NBA teams just wild flings for him. But I mean, it's deserved because that is typically how his seasons go from one to the next. He's just been spectacular.
- [35:11]
Big Watts
We've talked about the context mattering, like, as soon as Jimmy Butler gets thrust into being, like, the number one Option. It's like, eh, not really cut out for this anymore, right? And same thing could be said for Randle when he was the number one option in New York, but now, man, working off of Ant and they've built like a legitimate chemistry and synergy. Like, these guys are like locked in as if they've been playing for five years. It's insane. Like, this Julius Randle playoff run. It needs to be studied because this guy has been one of the best guys in the playoffs. Like, think about, think about all the things we've said about somebody like Evan Mobley this year and the kind of player he's been. Mvp. Almost nipping at the buds of like the heels, excuse me, of MVP candidacy, right? Like top seven, top eight, whatever. Best record in the Eastern Conference. Julius Randle has blown that man out the water in the playoffs. It's not even been close, dude. And like, you go team by team and say that about a bunch of guys who are bonafide stars in the NBA. He outplayed LeBron James the round before. Yeah, like, it's crazy, dude, how well this guy's played.
- [36:27]
Rob Mahoney
Here's what it is. Like, there's going to be the plays every game where Julius Randle hits some crazy shots. Like, that's going to happen whenever he.
- [36:33]
Big Watts
Makes a three, I shake my head. I'm like, jesus Christ.
- [36:36]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, you can see like, Draymond's making decisions with that. Like, we're just going to give up some of these threes. It's going to be what it is. There's shots on the other end of the spectrum where he's just going to do a couple things every game that's like, why did you just throw the ball into the third row? Like, I have no idea what you saw on that play. Everything in the middle has been kind of the battleground for him. And during his lesser seasons and previous seasons, too many of those possessions were just like a little too empty. A little too empty. Calorie, a little too much settling. He's just relentless getting into the paint right now. And I think it's been a similar thing with Ant, honestly, where, yeah, like, Ant has seven turnovers in this game, but he has 12 assists in this game. And the 12 assists looked as simple as anything ever did in this series for the Wolves. Like, very basic. Like, I'm going to explode past a primary defender. I'm going to get into the paint, I'm going to draw help. Jaden McDaniel's dunk, like, just very simple read and React stuff that Anthony Edwards opens up those sorts of world, like that world of possibilities because of everything he can do. I think that's where you're seeing those two guys thrive. It's like, yeah, they're going to have turnovers, they're going to have some mistakes, they're going to have some exceptional plays in the middle, in the thick of it. They're just making more winning plays than I think either of those guys ever have before. And that's coming off of an already quite successful run for Ant last year.
- [37:46]
Justin Barrier
If we get the final four that we're expecting. So if the Knicks win, if the Thunder end up beating Denver, they're up three, two. Right now, we'll have three teams that are benefiting from last year's Knicks team, which is wild to think that last year's Knicks team hobbled into the second round and couldn't make it past. The Pacers are basically the epicenter for, like, the talent boom in this year's playoffs. But, like, I keep finding myself thinking, like, damn, if they just rolled it back and they couldn't because of the way Hartenstein's contract was set up, they couldn't really match what any team was going to offer. If they just had that team back and didn't have to do all these wild things in order to plug that hole, like, God damn, that team would have been pretty.
- [38:25]
Big Watts
Yeah, Hartenstein. I don't think there was any world in which they could bring him back.
- [38:29]
Rob Mahoney
Couldn't happen.
- [38:30]
Big Watts
But, like, boy, if they were not looking at Julius Randle right now with heart eyes like, damn, that would have been nice to have the dude that's in Minnesota right now.
- [38:39]
Rob Mahoney
But, I mean, Cat's been pretty good. Like, I. I really don't have a problem with cat.
- [38:43]
Justin Barrier
It's more like an alternate timeline.
- [38:45]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, sure, sure.
- [38:46]
Big Watts
And their contracts are not comparable, though. That's the thing. And like, you know, and you get to keep your Divincenzo Nova, Nick, you.
- [38:53]
Justin Barrier
Know, you don't have that fucking commercial.
- [38:58]
Rob Mahoney
We have a whole other set of commercials. If he's still a Nick.
- [39:01]
Big Watts
By the way, this is the worst year for NBA commercials in the history of NBA commercials.
- [39:04]
Justin Barrier
The Wendy's commercial that has the doorbell ring. You are fucking with my dog like, seven times a night every time he hears that ring. Because it's the same one I have on my doorbell.
- [39:15]
Rob Mahoney
My dog's like, what's going on?
- [39:16]
Justin Barrier
Who's here? Apologize to my dog, Wendy, whoever.
- [39:21]
Big Watts
That marketing exec that came up with that jb got a jv got a bone to pick with you.
- [39:26]
Rob Mahoney
Well, this is an easy solution. Mute your tv. Listen to a podcast while you're watching. Was this thing up?
- [39:32]
Big Watts
That's right.
- [39:32]
Justin Barrier
Best got one on Vietnam. Handy.
- [39:35]
Rob Mahoney
But on the Divincenzo, I was listening.
- [39:37]
Big Watts
To a podcast about the new Jake Tapper book.
- [39:41]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, somehow that's even weirder.
- [39:44]
Justin Barrier
Quite interesting is a podcast about the new books. It was an interview with Jake Tapper.
- [39:49]
Big Watts
It would be like, do we want.
- [39:52]
Justin Barrier
To get into this?
- [39:53]
Big Watts
No, we don't want to get into it. I can't wait to.
- [39:56]
Rob Mahoney
But okay.
- [39:57]
Big Watts
We don't want to get into it.
- [39:58]
Rob Mahoney
Post show. I would love to hear about it. Oh, I was gonna say on the Divincenzo front, I thought this game was by far his best minutes of the series. That's a guy who they need to continue to play. Well, that was a huge development. Like, lots of kudos to go around for the Wolves. Mike Conley had an exceptional scoring game. I thought McDaniels was like just awesome defensively and their coordination defensively, as is often the case with the Wolves, just top marks, really, really good stuff.
- [40:21]
Big Watts
And just to square the circle on the Julius Randle Nick, stuff like this. He never shown this form in the history of his career. Okay. Like, there's no way the Knicks or Leon Rhodes or anybody should have expected that. Had they kept Julius Randle, he would be this freaking awesome in the playoffs.
- [40:40]
Justin Barrier
So he needed the change of scenery more.
- [40:41]
Big Watts
Such as? Life, bro.
- [40:42]
Justin Barrier
That plus the money motivator probably got him to this point. And everyone's better off.
- [40:48]
Big Watts
Bag fuel.
- [40:51]
Justin Barrier
Well, speaking of bag fuel, we should talk about the other side of the ledger here. Who had the best. Don't trade me to Milwaukee this offseason game, was it Brandon Prajemski this game or Jonathan Kaminga the previous game?
- [41:06]
Rob Mahoney
I think that ship has sailed for Jonathan Kaminga.
- [41:09]
Big Watts
Kaminga. He might. Yeah, he might be. He might need to get a real estate agent. Um, it might be time for him to start looking elsewhere outside of Golden State. I think Pajemski, man, like, he's fine, you know, like, he's a fine enough role player. I think sometimes he's just asked to do way more than he's clearly like, can shoulder. But Kaminga, I just. I'm done with it. Done with it.
- [41:40]
Rob Mahoney
I think Golden State probably will be as well. Like financially, it just isn't going to make sense for them to bring him back on a new deal. He's going to be a free agent restricted.
- [41:48]
Big Watts
Hold on, Rob. If Kaminga was like Tommy, for three years, 45 million player option after two.
- [41:57]
Rob Mahoney
You doing that, that would require a level of self awareness that I don't think Jonathan Kaminga has demonstrated.
- [42:03]
Justin Barrier
I think it would require a lot of therapy for Steve Kerr because he's already playing through the Pajemski experience and he yanked him fucking hard after he threw that bad pass off a jump pass. I don't think he could do another year of Kaminga. Just seems like that guy is going to drive him up a wall.
- [42:19]
Rob Mahoney
I think it's going to be better for everybody if Kuminga and the warriors part ways. Pajimski is fascinating because in some ways he profiles as such a Steve Kerr player and in other ways he absolutely does not. And you see that conflict with them all the time in the rotation. You see it in terms of when he's being trusted versus when he's not. Credit to Brandon Pajemski for actually hitting real basketball shots in this game. The ball went through the hoop for basically the first time all series because when he's not hitting, he's kind of a mess out there sometimes. Like they really needed this from somebody and so it was important to get it from him. But he is who he is and that's like a fairly useful but somewhat limited role player.
- [42:57]
Justin Barrier
Well, we should assemble our warriors war room here because we have to talk about their future ahead. In some ways it's kind of already been defined by the Jimmy Butler trade because they don't even really have contracts in order to go out and swing for like a Kevin Durant or something like super extreme. I think people have been whispering about the Giannis Warriors Steph Curry connection for 20 years at this point. Doesn't seem like that's going to happen because it's not in the cards for a variety of reasons. One, they just, just don't have anything that would interest Milwaukee when there's going to be like 20 bidders this summer. But it does feel like they need like two to three rotation players because what they were short is just like any goddamn offense when staff went out, obviously Stephen, presumably we'll be back next year. And so that will be mitigated to a certain extent. But like just having like three more guys and all of a sudden, Rob, this seems more interesting to me.
- [43:47]
Rob Mahoney
It does. But they're gonna have pretty meager resources to get those three other guys. Like to get three potential like useful offensive players with basically veteran minimums. Basically like the taxpayer mid level. Like they're not gonna have A lot to roll the dice with here, depending on how some of these other free agencies break. And they're already having to like, pay guys who are quite important to their team. You know, guys like Gary Payton, guys like Kavon Looney, like, they, they need them too, in addition to the scores they want to bring in. And so then all of a sudden you're starting to just like, look around at this year's free agent class, which is not the most overwhelmingly talented class I've ever seen, and say, who is the guy in this group that's going to take the veteran minimum to play for the warriors to come off the bench and like hit some shots? And I, I'm sure there's a group, a guy in that bunch will fit that description. I'm just not sure it's going to be. Somebody's going to blow you away.
- [44:35]
Big Watts
Yeah, I think they got to hope that the post kid who's been trashed in the playoffs, you know, he's had.
- [44:43]
Rob Mahoney
His moments in the playoffs.
- [44:46]
Big Watts
Okay, sure. He's had some, some moments. That is fair.
- [44:49]
Rob Mahoney
He's looked like a rookie big.
- [44:51]
Big Watts
Exactly.
- [44:51]
Rob Mahoney
In a lot of these.
- [44:52]
Big Watts
Exactly. And we can't just. What I was going to say, like, you can't just say like, oh, like this means he can't be good next year. I think, like, they gotta hope on that guy's development and, you know, pray that GI Santos is something like internal development kind of thing and hopefully one or two miracle veterans that they get to come. And you'd be like, holy smokes, this guy's gonna come in and be perfect for what the warriors are trying to do.
- [45:22]
Justin Barrier
Here's what I would hope for. If I'm laying out the canvas of like, what we want to accomplish here, if the big swings are off the table, I just want to trade young and potential for veterans who know what the fuck they're doing. And so if I have a list, and I have like a short list here, first and foremost I'm checking in with the Nets, who apparently I can only make trades with just them because after the Dennis Shooter move, we're going back to the, to the. Well, Cam Johnson makes a ton of sense. Big shooter would be a little concerned that he reverts back to two seasons ago as opposed to last seasons. But like, he's a guy that can score.
- [45:57]
Big Watts
He's a Steve Kerr kind of player, 100% million percent size.
- [46:02]
Justin Barrier
Not buddy heel level, streaky. He's just going to be an upgrade in every regard. What about Stephen Adams? Can I Interest you in a former warriors combatant in that long ago Western Conference finals. Now he just like a guy who's going to give you physicality off the bench. He's the new Looney. Does that interest you at all?
- [46:23]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, not just. Not just physicality off the bench too. Like Stephen Adams is a little bit of like Draymond high post distribution to his game. Like he's a little bit of a midpoint between Looney and Draymond in some ways.
- [46:33]
Big Watts
So they need a center, like a real bonafide actual seven footer who can play 20 minutes a game, you know, like they really need that. Like they are overstretching the bounds of what Draymond could do at his age, man. Yes, at the five. So like, yeah, they need a bona fide center and you know, like they're going to like somebody else besides Steph Curry who can make a three point shot that has to be in this freaking rotation.
- [47:01]
Rob Mahoney
I think by extension of the Draymond thing too. Like, you need to be very careful next regular season that you're not wearing Draymond out playing him at the 5. You also need to be very careful you're not wearing Jimmy out playing him at the four. Like having all three of those guys is helpful to kind of distribute some of the responsibility, but you're going to need like rock solid, very available role players. And this is where the veteran part of that conversation gets a little thorny, Justin, where it's like, yes, you could sign and trade Kuminga for like a lower ceiling kind of veteran contributor, but you better make sure that veteran contributor has like a pretty clean like injury like record. Like you want somebody who's going to be out there.
- [47:37]
Big Watts
I think Golden State is going to be really good next year.
- [47:40]
Rob Mahoney
I think so too.
- [47:41]
Big Watts
Like really, really good when they have all of these guys together. And it's a shame that the deal happened so freaking late that this scrub ass team that they put around Steph, they had to basically play a month and a half for their playoff lives. You know, basically tiring these guys out before they, you know, go into a freaking seven game series with a bunch of 23 year olds who are playing balls to the wall every second of a game. I think next year, man, with a new training camp, I think they'll be even more crisp in terms of the chemistry between Jimmy, Draymond and Steph. I really do think Golden State is going to be really a really good team next year.
- [48:26]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, it's hard to look at them in the future and be like, they're not going to be in the mix. Unfortunately, when the spurs then trade for Giannis, it's going to be like, assemble the Voltron that just smashes the world. It's going to be good.
- [48:38]
Rob Mahoney
What is the mix anymore in a world where Giannis is a Spur? Like the bar would move so substantially. But right now we're seeing like a healthy warriors team and a healthy Wolves team. Like, that's a good fight. That would have been a good series if Steph was out there. The Nuggets and the Thunder are not that far apart. Like, that's a really competitive series. Like all four of those teams and maybe even some more that are on the outside looking in who are going to be better next year. Like, they're all kind of in the same grouping. And I think Golden State has a chance to make some inroads. It's going to depend on who's healthy and when, what kind of minor additions they can make along the periphery. And I think they're going to need one. Like one surprise signing to pop. You know, whether it's an undrafted guy, whether it's somebody who hasn't had a reputation being terrible. They need a BIA Lisa. That's exactly what I mean. Well, even he had some moments having.
- [49:25]
Big Watts
Nightmares about that dude.
- [49:27]
Justin Barrier
If Post isn't the new Beelitsa, I don't know who is.
- [49:30]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, that's a fair point. But they need, they need the new new Beelitsa.
- [49:34]
D
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- [50:59]
Justin Barrier
Okay, since we're already talking around the draft lottery, why don't we pivot there? Just absolutely incredible night. Like, you think that you've seen it all, and then the Luca trade happens, and then you think you've seen it all and then the Mavs shoot up to number one. Rob, take us through how you're feeling. Specifically your friend who we checked on a couple episodes ago, a couple months ago. What's like. What's like the vibe now? Are people happy about it or are they still, like, reconciling with what just happened?
- [51:30]
Rob Mahoney
See, I almost don't like that you set it up that way. Because that friend, my friend Michael, since I've mentioned him on this pod, has been like jonesing for more shout outs. He's gotten greedy with the shout outs. I almost want to reject the premise. That said, in this case, the Mavs win the lottery. I get a call from him just cackling. I can't even hear a word. Just literally cackling. What? Just like as fucking strange a series of events as you can imagine any team going through in about a three to four month span. There is no righteousness in the world. It doesn't make sense. This is. And this. Look, there's one fundamental reason why the Mavs would never trade this pick and should never trade this pick for anybody, Giannis included. This is the one thing that bails out. Trading like a superstar as young as.
- [52:14]
Justin Barrier
Luka, like getting a white American superstar.
- [52:17]
Rob Mahoney
I wasn't going to say that. I was going to say someone as talented as Cooper Flagg coming in at 18 years old, getting the youth that's now going to carry you in a post Anthony Davis post, post Kyrie Irving era. There was no other way for the Mavs to get that other than this. And there was a 1.8% chance of that happening.
- [52:36]
Big Watts
But Rob, this is Texas. What about the double down, double down on the Luca deal? Get. Get another star in there.
- [52:46]
Rob Mahoney
Maybe you, maybe you can trade Cooper FR Austin Reeves, like go back from what you didn't get the first time.
- [52:51]
Justin Barrier
I mean, Cooper is a maniac. He's going to fit exactly what they would need. Yeah.
- [52:58]
Big Watts
Oh my God.
- [52:58]
Justin Barrier
I mean, I've only seen Harrison is.
- [53:00]
Big Watts
Going to fall in love with that kid.
- [53:02]
Justin Barrier
He definitely has mama mentality. Isn't a Nike guy, unfortunately. So maybe they do end up trading him. But yes.
- [53:08]
Rob Mahoney
Is he too New Balance? Is he in that group?
- [53:09]
Big Watts
New Balance guy, New England guy, Man. Come on.
- [53:13]
Rob Mahoney
The rise of the New Balance guys, the Skechers guys, you know, it's a real day for alternative athletics, right?
- [53:19]
Justin Barrier
All right, so what happens now in Dallas? So you have been gifted something probably not from the gods. I guess we're looking more downward for the help here. He fits exactly with what they're going for. We're talking about intensity, we're talking defense, we're talking about like power forward sized players. Now they have yet another one of them. I assume they're going to keep going along with Anthony Davis starting at power forward. So Cooper probably slots in at the three. You could just penciling lively hopefully back from his injury at center. Like how does this change the calculus you think, Rob, in terms of like what they're thinking this off season, I.
- [53:54]
Rob Mahoney
Think there's two things that shift. One, a PJ Washington trade feels pretty much inevitable. Not that BJ Washington is not good, but you've just been replaced by Cooper Flag. And most importantly, this is a team that needs playable guards so badly.
- [54:08]
Justin Barrier
Yeah.
- [54:09]
Rob Mahoney
This is a complete list of the players on the Mavericks roster under contract, who their best position is in the backcourt, period. Either guard position. We're going to put Kyrie Irving to the side because he's still rehabbing. We don't know what his status is going to be for the majority of next season. The guards, they have Brandon Williams, Spencer Dinwiddie, Jaden Hardy, Max Christie. End of list. Those are the guards.
- [54:31]
Justin Barrier
Najee Marshall, I would say.
- [54:34]
Rob Mahoney
I would say Najee Marshall is best as a three.
- [54:37]
Justin Barrier
Yes.
- [54:37]
Rob Mahoney
Best as a three. Big shoe. Similarly with Clay, like they're gonna, they can get away with faking some of this stuff, but like they just need backcourt help in such a desperate way that one PJ Washington could easily be moved for that. I also think this is a maybe subtler but also meaningful nudge for a Daniel Gafford trade as well. Given that the Mavs are probably not going to reinvest in a future Daniel. Daniel Gaffer deal. This would be the time to trade him. I'm sure the Lakers will come calling. I'm sure other teams will come calling. He's going to make sense for a lot of groups out there who are looking for a, like a backup energy center who's a good rim protector and finisher. He could make sense for a lot of team. They just have too much stuff going on in the front court. Now if, if Cooper flag Anthony Davis, Derek lively or your 3, 4, 5. Like you gotta get back court help specifically until Kyrie gets back.
- [55:22]
Big Watts
Yeah. I wonder if Gafford can be dangled for some help. I'd be making calls on Gafford yesterday.
- [55:29]
Justin Barrier
This is already buzzed. I think he wants starter money. And you're already seeing like the, the rumors where it's like Gafford here or there. So that seems inevitable.
- [55:38]
Big Watts
Coming up on free agency or he wants an extension.
- [55:40]
Rob Mahoney
He's got one more year. Yeah, one more year under contract.
- [55:43]
Big Watts
Making phone calls on that guy asap because like obviously you're not moving AD.
- [55:54]
Justin Barrier
Again.
- [55:54]
Rob Mahoney
Just that we're talking about.
- [55:57]
Big Watts
Imagine trading Luca freaking Doncic for a.
- [56:01]
Rob Mahoney
Guy and then trading AD afterwards, then.
- [56:04]
Big Watts
Five months later moving the guy. You moves for Luka Dodge like, yo.
- [56:08]
Rob Mahoney
Bruh, this reality is already stupid enough. Like, I can't deal with that. But a Cooper flag AD Derek Lively frontcourt is fucking sick. Like, let's just, let's just put it out there. That's a, that's a sick group to bank your team on.
- [56:22]
Justin Barrier
So I think we're all assuming that Kyrie will come back in some form or fashion. He has a player option this summer. Probably going to resign him. We'll see what he can give them next season. But two seasons from now, they're going to have something there. I would be targeting a guard in a trade because as Rob mentioned, you got a nice little package there with Washington and potentially Gafford together or separately where you could target a guard who will give you some offensive juice now. But ultimately I want to downshift him to the six man role.
- [56:50]
Big Watts
Can I? Some Jalen Green action.
- [56:53]
Justin Barrier
You can.
- [56:54]
Rob Mahoney
Don't. Please don't. I don't think this team needs.
- [56:59]
Justin Barrier
I mean maybe if like Houston trades for Giannis and they have to trade Jabari, they might be interested in pj. I would be trying to extract Fred Van Vliet. The math there is really difficult because he's on a team option. I think he's, he's making a shit ton of money. And so I don't know if those aligned But Fred Van Vlietz on my list, I'd be looking at like the Kobe Whites of the world. Sure seems a little too critical to what Chicago's doing. I don't know if they need a win now piece in pj.
- [57:24]
Rob Mahoney
What is it that Chicago's doing?
- [57:26]
Justin Barrier
I mean, at the very least, it involves White and Giddy. Yeah, he just wants.
- [57:30]
Big Watts
He just wants a clear out for Giddy. So get Kobe White the hell up out of there.
- [57:34]
Justin Barrier
I like that part of it. But I don't think they need a finishing piece in pj. They probably need a younger guy. And why? Also needs to be resigned. I believe in two years. So he's coming up. I also have once again, because anytime we mention this player type, we have to mention Anthony Simons. That seems like a little bit cleaner of a fit if we're talking more picks rather than players.
- [57:56]
Big Watts
What about Lamelo Ball?
- [58:00]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, that's too ambitious.
- [58:02]
Justin Barrier
That's a lot.
- [58:03]
Big Watts
Apparently he's on the trade block. Guys, that's.
- [58:05]
Rob Mahoney
I think that's overthinking it. You know, you just got Cooper flag. Let's get a point guard who will get all the trains running on time, get everyone in their positions and throw an entry pass. That seems like the baseline of what we're looking for.
- [58:17]
Big Watts
You got to be thinking cast off at this point.
- [58:19]
Justin Barrier
But look at all the optimism we're talking about. Look how much things have changed based on crazy. The 1.8% ping pong balls. And like that one last ball was a seven and not a six or like an eight or anything like that is the difference between the Mavs having a future as bright as anyone in the league versus what they were before.
- [58:38]
Big Watts
As I've been saying all along, Nico Harrison is a genius. Okay? They weren't actually trying to make it to the playoffs in the play in by winning that first game. This. This was the plan all along. He perfectly laid the foundation to 99% chance of not getting this pick.
- [58:58]
Rob Mahoney
I just. I'm hoping that for the three of us, this can be our Cooper flag year. Whatever. Like our 1.8% probability outcome is like, I want Justin's corn in his garden to come in like absolutely thriving state fair worthy. Like ears of corn. Like, I just. I want the. The best possible performance for all of us in whatever our chosen walks of life are. I don't know what those would be.
- [59:19]
Big Watts
You know what's funny too? Somebody pointed this out to me. Like, I generally root for Danny Ainge not to succeed. Um, but Cooper flag in Utah as a story would have been something I just couldn't resist. That would have been. That would have been too sweet, too.
- [59:38]
Rob Mahoney
You don't have to worry about it.
- [59:39]
Big Watts
Marriage. Oh, damn it.
- [59:42]
Justin Barrier
Since we're talking around that, one of the questions I have down here is which lottery team outside of the top three is now the most intriguing situation. So we're talking about the spurs in a little bit and we could talk about the Sixers if you want, but that one's a little bit more cut and dry to me. Like, are any of those teams wise, Are you more interested in, like, are you, like, watching the Jazz as they try to recover from this tank and they're left with, I believe, the fifth pick in the draft, and all of a sudden it's like, what? What are we doing?
- [60:09]
Big Watts
I mean, to me, I ultimately, I hear like, you know, I was listening to Bill and Zach and it's like, what have we done? Teams talk about, what have we done? What have we brought? Like, ultimately, bro, you have to be more competent than praying that that time you get the good ping pong, there's a franchise player waiting there for you. Cause was it, if I'm not mistaken, Jalen Green was the number two pick in the draft, y' all.
- [60:34]
Rob Mahoney
He was like, why?
- [60:37]
Big Watts
Number two pick in the draft, guys. Like, I'm sorry. Like this idea that you said, my, oh my roster building potential is so cooked. Cause no, it's not. You have to be more competent than praying that you somehow fall with the right pick in the right draft. Like, if these guys are as freaking genius as I'm led to believe by our media brethren, these freaking GM types, then you gotta be better. So I don't feel bad. I'm happy this happened. This is exactly what should be happening. Like this idea that we had a system where just constant mediocrity and stinking to join up, you get rewarded with franchise saviors is absurd to me, dude. Like, figure it out, bro. Did the Pacers, who in their second straight conference finals, did they get lucky with some grand ping pong ball? And oh, so the three teams jumped.
- [61:32]
Rob Mahoney
Ahead of us all. Boo hoo.
- [61:33]
Big Watts
Pour me, like, fuck outta here with that shit. Be great, man. I don't want to hear it. Be great. Put a dope ass team together.
- [61:42]
Rob Mahoney
Be great. Kyle Filipowski, be great. Cody Williams, you know, figure it out.
- [61:48]
Justin Barrier
I don't disagree with you. I'm not going to be like asking for lottery reform because I think, like, this might scare some teams straight. I think my issue is it Just kind of upset the natural balance of giving the best players to bad teams. And so now we are going to be overstocked where we might have a couple super teams and like almost super halves and super have nots to where like, like the spurs even ending up with the second pick in the draft is just going to set them up in a way that they could be a colossal juggernaut even if they don't trade for Giannis. And then as part of that is another thing I want to talk about. Everyone is in the Western Conference and there's nobody in the East. Like, it's just like at a certain point you do need some balance or like the playoffs are going to be just so disappointing in the eastern side of things.
- [62:36]
Rob Mahoney
Can I just say that's welcome to the last 40 years of NBA basketball. Like, yeah, but we have every year with a couple of historical aberrations. The Western Conference is better.
- [62:46]
Big Watts
I want to see the 1 through 16. I love my conferences. I love the conference rivalries. Preserve tradition. We like this. Constantly chasing the. Like, I'm sorry. Like, I'm good with how the Western Conference is rolled out and I'm fine with the East. Like, it's sucks that Tatum got hurt. I would have loved to see Tatum actually trying to come back from three one. But this. The Eastern Conference playoffs have been excellent. I have no complaints whatsoever about this, man. Like, yeah, it's a couple of guys like, sorry, man, quit your job. Go get a job in the East.
- [63:21]
Rob Mahoney
Sorry, GMs.
- [63:23]
Big Watts
Go work in the East.
- [63:25]
Rob Mahoney
We're outsourcing to the Eastern Conference now. You got to go get a job over there. I mean, was the traditionalist. I think is just like a good stance for this podcast. Overall, I am.
- [63:35]
Big Watts
I'm a trad podcast.
- [63:37]
Rob Mahoney
You're a TR podcast. We do say that about you. I'm. I'm team like 1 to 16. Just because I say fuck it. Like the. The conferences, those rivalries don't mean a lot to me. I don't think there are that many of them that are like still in.
- [63:50]
Big Watts
Exciting nothing to you. If that happens in the next round.
- [63:53]
Rob Mahoney
I think it'll be cute that we'll get like the highlight reel moments.
- [63:56]
Big Watts
Wow. Blogger talk. That's blogger talk.
- [63:58]
Justin Barrier
That's crazy.
- [63:59]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, wouldn't it be. Wouldn't it be cool if they met in the finals instead? If the rivalry is that important, I guess.
- [64:05]
Big Watts
Sure, sure.
- [64:06]
Justin Barrier
Listen, if the Bulls in their current state played the Pistons in their current state or you're like, let's go History yet again. The. The Eastern Conference finals from the 90s back again. Like, no, no one cares about that anymore.
- [64:19]
Rob Mahoney
But like, things like the Nuggets and the Wolves, like, having a Western Conference does make it more probable that they're bumping up against each other all the time, series after series after series. And we're seeing, you know, Minnesota evolve. We're seeing them go get the thing that they need to counter. Nicola, I think that's what we would lose a little bit. Is that sort of like Jokic is in our conference? Should we go sign Isaiah Hardenstein? Like, like that kind of causality would be a little bit gone or at least a little farther afield if it's a 1 to 16.
- [64:46]
Big Watts
It's just for me, this feels like UCLA joining the Big Ten. Like, I just don't need it.
- [64:53]
Rob Mahoney
I don't need it.
- [64:53]
Big Watts
I don't need it whatsoever. Like, I'm fine with the conferences as they are. I don't want the world versus America in the, in the goddamn All Star game. Like, just give me the east and West. If the east gets their head pounded in, sorry. You guys should be more competitive. Like, play no excuses. Play like a champion. Like, I just, I don't know, man. It sounds like it's just a bunch of freaking Western Conference execs bitching about how hard it is.
- [65:19]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, it's that, yeah, that does happen.
- [65:21]
Justin Barrier
Well, if we're going to use the go be great theory, I do think it's going to be harder for just the best teams to be on the biggest stage where I do think we're going to have like 11 through 13 in the Western Conference not even getting a play in game while like a 42 win team is like the number four seed in the Eastern Conference. And then I'm just like, I want to see the best teams play the best teams when the stakes are at their highest. And so it's going to almost rob us of better competition when we want to see it the most.
- [65:50]
Big Watts
When we add Seattle and Vegas. Can we add Minnesota to the Eastern Conference?
- [65:57]
Rob Mahoney
I think it's probably. Memphis is the one. Probably right now.
- [65:59]
Big Watts
Memphis is absolutely the one. I mean, it doesn't even make any sense that they're a Western Conference.
- [66:03]
Rob Mahoney
Geographically speaking, one of those two, Minnesota.
- [66:06]
Big Watts
If Memphis could be a Western Conference team, why can't Minnesota be an Eastern Conference team?
- [66:11]
Rob Mahoney
That's true.
- [66:11]
Big Watts
You know, get ant in the East.
- [66:13]
Justin Barrier
I think a lot of teams are going to be lobbying very hard to beat that team that gets to the Eastern Conference.
- [66:18]
Rob Mahoney
Eastern Conference Clippers can't wait. Just get them out there.
- [66:21]
Justin Barrier
So you would rather teams just getting in based on politics in order to get into the worst conference and all of a sudden the Wolves are a dynasty because they've been in the finals like LeBron level.
- [66:33]
Rob Mahoney
Now we are big 12ing it. Now we are just like college conferences at that point.
- [66:37]
Justin Barrier
I say abolish them. We've done it enough. We're screwing with the All Star Game every five months. It seems like, like, let's just. Just let me tell you now, look.
- [66:46]
Rob Mahoney
It'S 20, 25, guys. Nothing is sacred, I promise you. Not a single thing.
- [66:50]
Big Watts
If. But this is the thing though, with the schedule. If you keep the integrity of the 82 game schedule. How do you balance a schedule with no conferences and have travel to consider?
- [67:02]
Justin Barrier
You can keep the logistics the same as if they're east west, but change how the playoffs are seeded. You're still playing the same teams the same amount of times, I think.
- [67:10]
Big Watts
Yeah, but if you're in the west, you're playing west teams more times than east teams play them.
- [67:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [67:16]
Big Watts
You understand?
- [67:16]
Justin Barrier
It doesn't help. It doesn't help.
- [67:18]
Big Watts
So that's why I'm just like, yo, man, this is. This is life. This is the life. We chose, fellas. We chose to be NBA people. Deal with it.
- [67:26]
Rob Mahoney
My answer on that front was not our job to figure out the schedule, to break it into like arena availability. Like, logistically, I agree it's a nightmare. I think ultimately the answer is the season should be much shorter. It should be much less unwieldy in that direction, and then you can get into breaking it up.
- [67:42]
Big Watts
If we go into my round robin, every team plays each other twice, home and away. I'm fine with abolishing the conferences.
- [67:51]
Justin Barrier
Wait, we haven't heard this proposal yet. What's the laws? Tournament?
- [67:54]
Rob Mahoney
No, for the regular season, like literally.
- [67:57]
Big Watts
Just every team plays each other twice, home and away, two games a week.
- [68:01]
Justin Barrier
Let's keep it pushing 100%. Yeah. Everything can be solved in the NBA if we just had fewer games. Like I literally every more we talk about it and we talk about it all the time. Yeah, well, the one thing we didn't hit Spurs. We're kind of talking around it because it does feel like they are on the precipice of something potentially pretty special here. They end up with the number two pick. Dylan Harper is projected there. Seems like the way the draft is breaking Cooper Flagg clearly number one. Harper clearly number two, separated himself from the Vijay Edge Gum types. The, the Ace Bailey types. You could read about all of them in Kyle Mann's draft. Guy Danny Chow also helping out there. So take a look at that. I don't know, man. It just feels like this could be a game changer and they already had one of the best prospects in the past 50 years.
- [68:50]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [68:50]
Big Watts
Is it a game changer if they just keep the kid that was on a 10 win team?
- [68:54]
Justin Barrier
Maybe not as much. If they use him to trade for Giannis, then yes. That is the scariest team that I've seen since the Big three, Heat or other options.
- [69:04]
Rob Mahoney
You know, like, I don't know who else is going to come available this summer, but like, it doesn't have to only be Giannis. Giannis is a dream pairing for Victor.
- [69:11]
Big Watts
Webign, Devin Booker, does that get you guys going?
- [69:13]
Rob Mahoney
I think that would be pretty exciting. I think there's lots of exciting possibilities ultimately. Like what's happening is this, like San Antonio already had good young players to include in a potential deal. They have a bunch of, for Giannis purposes, most importantly, have a bunch of picks that are not their own picks. Right. They have a chunk of Atlanta's future. They have a future first from Boston. They have the better of Dallas or Minnesota's pick in 2030. They have a Sacramento swap in 2031. That could always be pretty juicy. They had a lot of stuff to dangle out in a Giannis trade or otherwise. Now they have this very immediate asset. Whatever you may think of this draft class, you have your pick of your guy who's not Cooper Flag. And for a team like the Bucks that does not own its own draft future, that could be pretty appealing. Right. That is a present tense source of hope for a team that is going to need to reset after Giannis. And so I think this puts them into that conversation in a totally different way. Is it a Spurs thing to do to trade that pick? I don't know. I think that's what we're trying to get a handle for, like what this franchise is now in this era of spurs basketball. Historically, I would say that's not really the way they operate historically. I'm not sure they make the Deer and Fox trade either, to be honest with you. And so like they're, they're, they're clearly like gearing up in a slightly more aggressive direction. And if you're feeling aggressive at all, and I think you should, if you have Dear and Fox and Victor Web and Yama on your team, you should be blowing up John Horst's phone like that. That should just be a constant dialogue. As far as the Giannis piece of it.
- [70:39]
Justin Barrier
Here's the thing in the background of all of this, though, is I find myself lamenting the fact that if they go too soon, that Victor Wembanyama becomes almost the third most like, forward facing person on that team. I've. I've taken to our friend Isaac, who's on our editorial desk on the NBA section. I've started calling Victor Romanyama. Should they trade for Giannis new Alberto.
- [71:03]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, come on.
- [71:04]
Justin Barrier
Which he would just be. He would just be diminished.
- [71:07]
Rob Mahoney
What are you talking about, Yama? I know, like, you're overplaying it, but.
- [71:13]
Justin Barrier
Yes, it's just like, I don't know, it just becomes more about this colossal juggernaut team with Giannis and Fox and Wendy just becomes like the defensive guy who's like, growing underneath him. It's like, it's fun, but it's just like, damn, I was just gearing up for this whole future of Wemby being like the face of the league. Maybe that just doesn't happen.
- [71:31]
Big Watts
I completely disagree. He'd be like Brook Lopez, if Brook Lopez could win MVPs. Like, that's what that becomes to me.
- [71:39]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, it's more about, like, how we interface with him.
- [71:42]
Rob Mahoney
Sure, sure. I mean, in that regard, I think it's more of a Duncan Robinson thing. Right. Like, it's more like, oh, this could be a really incredible star pairing, but a new age version of that that we've never quite seen before. And yeah, like, look, you add Giannis to any team, Giannis becomes, if not the most important member of that entire organization, then at least second on that org chart. I think. I think Victor Wembanyama is uniquely positioned, though. Like, he is anointed. He is already like such a pivotal part of their entire structure there. I think even if you do trade for someone like Giannis, yes, that is a more veteran player. That's a voice in a different way where Victor is still kind of finding his as a leader and finding his, whether it's in a press conference setting or a locker room setting, still learning to like, command and take on that kind of role for the Spurs. But as a player, he's going to be fucking great. Like, yes, I think in some ways maybe it tethers him more to the outside than the inside. If you pair him with Giannis, I'm not so convinced. That's a terrible thing. And defensively, I think they're just going to be. Going to be. They would be unlike anything we've ever even tried to imagine before, it would be sick.
- [72:47]
Justin Barrier
It's just that classic thing of, like, when you have a prospect that you draft, you want to rear him and give him every opportunity to be the big, bright, shining star that you always expected him to be. And anything that disrupts that just, like, is jarring at the very least. But I feel like Giannis plus Wemby plus Foxes, I mean, unbelievable.
- [73:06]
Rob Mahoney
I feel like you're eating the David Thorpe royal jelly. You know, like you, you want those developmental opportunities for our guy Wemby a little bit.
- [73:14]
Justin Barrier
I will say this, though. I think at the deadline, obviously Luca took like 100% or 99.9% of the oxygen of what everybody was talking about. But low key. There was at least one or two executive was like, that's all they paid for, dear. And Fox. And so now that they have all of this stuff left over in addition to the number two pick just puts them into the prime position. So it's like, like, yes, Luca, that was a terrible trade, but this other one, like, almost set themselves up for the follow up move in a way that probably could have been avoided if they just picked off a little bit more from them. Yeah, something, something to tab there, but we'll keep track of that. I'm sure we'll talk about this 90 billion times over the next three months. Why don't we wrap it there? A little change in the schedule. No game on Saturday, so we're taking the weekend off. Woz is very excited. We'll be back Monday.
- [74:01]
Big Watts
Oh, just wanted to say one thing. Want to give a shout out to my niece Camille, who is graduating from LSU this Saturday in Baton Rouge, and I will be in attendance. So go Tigers.
- [74:13]
Rob Mahoney
Go Tigers.
- [74:13]
Justin Barrier
Go Tigers.
- [74:14]
Big Watts
Yes, sir.
- [74:15]
Justin Barrier
E, A, U, X. Yes, sir.
- [74:17]
Rob Mahoney
Nice work. So, notable alumni. We're just spelling things.
- [74:29]
Justin Barrier
I think it's time for us to go. Am I right? Yeah. All right. Thank you. So we'll be back Monday as we were during the regular season. No Saturday pod. We'll be recording sometime on Monday. So check it out then. Thank you, Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll talk to you next time.
- [74:51]
Rob Mahoney
Foreign.
- [74:56]
Justin Barrier
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