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- [00:00]
Justin Barrier
Foreign hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier, and joining me, Rob Mahoney. Big Woz. Free agency goes a pace. I'm not necessarily sure what pace that is. We're down to, like, the Spencer Dinwiddies and assistant coach hirings very quickly, Rob, this feels pretty quick to get to this level of free agency.
- [00:32]
Rob Mahoney
I think this is where we are now, though. You know, a lot of the stuff gets taken care of ahead of time, especially in terms of teams resigning their own players. And then, yeah, we fast forward to Spencer Dinwiddie and we fast forward to, I don't know, Sandra Mamu Kelish Valley. Like, we. We just get here very quickly ultimately. But I'm not mad at it. I'm not mad at the prospect. I. I dare not invoke this and say this out loud, but I'm going to do it on a podcast of having a July 4th without major NBA news. Could we be so lucky?
- [01:00]
Justin Barrier
You just jinxed it.
- [01:01]
Rob Mahoney
I'm sorry.
- [01:01]
Justin Barrier
What are you doing?
- [01:02]
Rob Mahoney
I'm sorry.
- [01:03]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. What'd you think of the Sandro signing was.
- [01:07]
Big Woz
I didn't. No. It just sounds to me like you weren't on the edge of your seat waiting and wondering what was going to happen with Dante Exum, which I find to be highly problematic. This is exciting stuff here in day three or what day are we. Yeah, day three of NBA free agency.
- [01:28]
Justin Barrier
Right. Well, is the 30th. Does that count? Or are we starting at the first because we're on July 3rd now?
- [01:34]
Rob Mahoney
It depends on who you ask. I mean, by some measures, for agency's been going on for like, three weeks at least. So who's to say?
- [01:40]
Justin Barrier
Well, we titled last time's pod day one on the 30th. So if we're just following consistency, we're on day four.
- [01:46]
Big Woz
Day four.
- [01:47]
Justin Barrier
Don't check us on that. But at this point, like, most of the business is over, and so there's a lot still kind of in the mix and which is why I think we've assembled and want to talk about some of the more confusing teams or confounding teams. I wrote down here just to change it up. Just a little extra spice on there.
- [02:05]
Rob Mahoney
While we're talking about the confusing and the confounding, I have. I have, like, a life update I need to bring you guys in on. I spoke to my mom yesterday. Big group chat listener. I think she listens to basically every episode. Mom, I'm generally sorry for everything that goes on here.
- [02:19]
Justin Barrier
My mom reads the comments on oh no, that's worse. And then wants to tell me about them. They're like, isn't this about you? I was like, can you not? So, actually, PSA to everyone out there. Be nice, because my mom is reading this.
- [02:34]
Big Woz
Oh, my goodness.
- [02:35]
Rob Mahoney
A very important lesson for us all. Please, please be kind to Justin's mom. Uh, my mom briefed me that she would like an update off POD at some point this summer. Next time I see her on all of the apron rules, she wants to get in full sicko mode. In what, you know, was described the. The current NBA landscape as draconian in terms of all the rules and. And regulations that are guiding these teams. I don't even know where to begin with my mom in terms of explaining the apron. I don't know where to begin with myself sometimes in terms of understanding the apron. So this is where we are. You know, in order to even understand and appreciate a program like ours, you got to be neck deep in the second apron.
- [03:12]
Justin Barrier
Apparently, that's actually a good segue to talking about the first team on our list, which is the Milwaukee Bucks, which is one of waz's teams, because not only did they make the biggest, splashiest move of the off season, waving and stretching dame in order to sign Miles Turner, but they have done nine different moves where I can't even, like, add up who is going where. Like, who's getting caught. What are they in the plus of an apron? Are they in a minus? They literally traded two draft picks to save, I think a million dollars in order to get Vasily Micic.
- [03:48]
Rob Mahoney
They gave up picks to get Vasily.
- [03:50]
Justin Barrier
Micic, but it sounds like they did so specifically because he's going to get bought out and wants to play overseas next year.
- [03:58]
Rob Mahoney
That's a bummer. I was kind of hoping he would be a rotation guy for them, to be honest with you.
- [04:03]
Justin Barrier
And then they might weave and stretch the remaining money that he doesn't take with him overseas. And so while this is a long winded way of saying, like, the Bucks are doing a lot, I don't know what they're doing and which is why they are number one. With the bullet on our list, they.
- [04:17]
Big Woz
Added Gary Harris again, a guy that I've liked since college. Basically, I was still watching college basketball back when Gary Harris was at Michigan State. That's how long ago that was. Like, these are like, I love Miles Turner. He's like one of the poster children of this show.
- [04:37]
Rob Mahoney
Why?
- [04:38]
Big Woz
Like, I already had Brooke Lopez in my building signed for literally a fraction of the money in Los Angeles. I get it. He was, like, kind of quote, unquote, unplayable in the postseason, all of this other stuff. But just at the cost, though. Like, at a certain point, yes, Miles Turner, you could say, is a much better player. I would say he's a better player, but at what cost of. Basically, over the lifespan of Miles Turner's deal, it's $50 million a year to accommodate that one move. I love Miles Turner. He's not a $50 million player. You don't make that kind of decision based on Miles Turner. And then, and I have this on pretty good authority, I spoke to somebody who would actually know Dame Lillard would have seriously considered opting out of his deal next summer for the flexibility for, like, all right, I'm tired of living in Milwaukee. Like, I want a fresh new start. I didn't pick Milwaukee in the first place. I got traded against my will to Milwaukee. So, like, a guy who was probably gonna lop off 60 million anyway. Like, what are we doing? And it's all in service, obviously, of making Giannis happy. Like, guys, does anybody think the results of the Bucks next season, after all of this stuff that they've done, is going to make Giannis happy? Like, are any. Like, is there any reading? The most optimistic Bucks reading, like, Giannis is going to be like, this is. This is fantastic.
- [06:23]
Justin Barrier
It's quite literally the same team, just with Miles Turner in the place of Brooke Lopez. They've done so much stuff, and the only new guys that they've added are Gary Harris and Miles Turner.
- [06:33]
Rob Mahoney
Rob, I mean, that. Look, okay, one, I will believe that a player coming off of an Achilles tear turns down $60 million. When I see it, I don't know that. Like, I know that that stuff has been out there. Was as far as, like, Dame turning down that option potentially, I don't know that I fully buy it as a possibility. And I understand why the Bucks are here. I understand what they think they have to do. We can all disagree as to whether we would have done it ourselves, but, like, Miles Turner is a noticeable upgrade over Brook Lopez. Case in point, the fact that Miles Turner just basically played Brook Lopez off the floor in the postseason, like, he was the reason, in part, in addition to the movement of that Indiana offense, that Brook was having a hard time. If you can have a guy who's even more, like, just capable of holding his own and holding a spot in a playoff rotation, I think that is a meaningful thing. Does Giannis look at this new roster and say, oh, my God, everything is so different? No, but I don't think he was looking for that. I don't think he was looking for a massive renovation. I think he was mostly looking for, like, give me some reason to believe that this could be a little bit different. And I have to say, this is a little bit different.
- [07:44]
Big Woz
Again, two guys who I love, Jamal Murray, Miles Turner, love these guys to death, but their success is predicated by the superstar who they play with. Like, Halliburton is a big reason why Miles Turner had this great success, for sure. The Bucks don't have a Halliburton on their roster.
- [08:10]
Rob Mahoney
They don't have very many guards at all in this roster in terms of.
- [08:13]
Big Woz
Setting up Miles Turner and, like, positioning him with the style of play to get the most out of his skill set. Like, I would say the same thing about Jamal Murray. Like, if Jamal Murray went to another team on his contract and you expected Jamal Murray to play to the level at, you know, his best moments in Denver, I'd be like, I don't know that that's possible. You know what I mean? And so that's what I'm saying. It's like, I love Miles Turner, but, like, this seems like a dramatic thing to do to get Miles Turner. Y', all. Like, it just. I don't. I don't. I don't get what they're doing. And, like, you know, this is gonna sound like the understatement of the year, but I've. I. I've lost a bit of confidence in the John Horse stewardship of this franchise. Call me crazy.
- [09:00]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Not. Not in the past five years or anything like that. No, I. I like Turner, but it seemed like they needed a very loud, splashy move when Turner provides something that's pretty quiet, whereas I think he unlocks the ability for other people to do what they do. And I think in Indiana, that was clear, where his ability to stretch the floor, to be viable as a spacer, like, fuels a lot of the different things that they're doing with movement and spacing, and it provides everyone else to be a little bit. A little bit more unencumbered by the defense because they have more space around them. And obviously to do so with the shot blocking onto the other end and not sacrificing the defensive end. It just, like, he. He's a functional part that allows people to be their best self, and I just don't see how. Yes, he'll do that with Giannis, but, like, is there any real movement that he's giving to this offense which could Be a pretty stodgy one that's based solely around Giannis kind of battering, ramming his way into the basket, especially because he wouldn't do the pick and roll stuff with Dana. At least be like a full, fully involved in that regard. And so I just don't see how he takes them to another level. If anything, you're hoping he gets you back into the mix in the top six, and that's a weird starting point for a move that might just completely cripple your future for the next five years.
- [10:17]
Rob Mahoney
It's very true. I. I agree with you that I don't think he's bringing a lot of movement to this offense. I think his role is similar offensively to what the best of Brook Lopez was, which is a pressure release. You're removing, you know, a guy who would be rotating to protect the rim out of Giannis's way, potentially like that is a valuable thing. The irony of that is, like, what made Turner so dynamic as a pacer was his growth into that movement and his growth into being a more dynamic player. And now, if anything, you're kind of turning him back into the guy he was playing with demonic Sabonis a little bit. It's like your job is to space, and he's good at that. He hit damn near 40% of his threes last season. Like, he is a good shooter and a good spacer. I would have loved a world in which he could have been more than that. I don't see that with the Bucks. And you didn't see it. You know, if you want to trace the outline back to when Dame was out from Milwaukee last season, they ran through Giannis a ton, as you would expect them to do. This is not a team that has a lot of guard alternatives. They certainly don't have any guard alternatives now because they haven't really invested in that position at all, give or take Vasily Micage. And so how they want to route their offense, I think it is going to be very Giannis driven. I think at this point, that is a deliberate choice. They have scanned the free agent market. They've said, we don't see a guard out here that's going to change our offense and change our world. And so instead of that, we are going to do something dramatic. We are going to make a big splash. And maybe the statement is not, here's Miles Turner. This, this like, unbelievable, infallible player who we've added. It's, we are willing to do this big, dramatic thing for the sake of making you 5% happier. And is. Is that gesture enough? In addition to the fact that I think Miles Turner will actually make Giannis his life easier in some ways.
- [11:53]
Big Woz
So this is like a dude on Valentine's Day just putting a bunch of rose petals all over the floor for nothing.
- [11:59]
Rob Mahoney
Exactly.
- [11:59]
Big Woz
For the 5% increase of happiness, it.
- [12:02]
Rob Mahoney
Might not be for nothing. I think that's the question. Does it mean something to Giannis? Does the gesture mean something? I don't know.
- [12:09]
Justin Barrier
And in the past, he has been open to that. Like, whenever they've gone out and made a big move, he's actually doubled down and recommitted to them. But you're right, it just to keep going on the relationship metaphors, it almost feels like we're at the point where, like, they're opening it up a little bit because they have no other option.
- [12:26]
Big Woz
Swinger parties.
- [12:28]
Justin Barrier
I don't know if they're quite there yet, but that is obviously the next step. All of a sudden, the wife breaks out, Miles Turner breaks out a chair, and it's just like, oh, no, just sit. Just sit in the corner. You know, whatever. This will be good for both of us. I know when the writing is on the wall here and maybe they get another year of Giannis, maybe two years, but I hope they cash in however long he stays, because that seems like what they're after here is just making the most of what they have. And I guess it's fine, but wise, I don't. I don't see the long term plan.
- [13:00]
Big Woz
So my guy Modak Hill was like, look. Cause I'm like, no first round pick for six years and 23 million in dead cap for five of those. This. This is bad. And he's like, at the end of the day, they could trade Giannis and get a lot of stuff in return. Some young players, some picks, and be manageable in dealing with charting a path forward from that, which I get. But like, this seems crazy. And to get to the Indiana part of this, I don't know, we were bigging up Indiana's front office. I think we have a lot of respect and admiration for what they've built out there. So it's like, if they could let Miles Turner go, they must know what they're doing. At the same time, if you can't get the 20 mil per for miles Turner, that seems a guy who's only 20, which sounds insane, he's only 27 years old, that you couldn't pay him 20 mil per for four years, that feels like, come on. Especially a guy Like Miles Turner, who, like, teams love this skill set. Some rim protection, some shooting. Like, if it really came down to it, you could have got off of him. I think it kind of sucks that they couldn't up that number financially for Miles Turner.
- [14:13]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know if this was a front office or like, you know, a management decision or an ownership decision, so to speak. I don't know if this was a basketball call, because I think you could make that call on Miles Turner that you want to go in a different direction at the 5. It sure feels very coincidental that this, even something remotely resembling the salary would have put the Pacers into the tax and they chose not to do it. That feels. That feels pointed to me. That feels like a financial decision that they didn't want to do in a year where Tyrese Halliburton isn't going to be available. And that's like the. The butterfly effects of Tyrese's injury. I mean, we're just starting to see them in terms of how far out they're going to reach. It just. It's such a bummer that a team goes to the NBA Finals and this would have been, in any other circumstances, a continued celebration of everything they've built, and instead Tyrese is out, their starting center is gone. Like, they're going to be a dramatically different team going forward and into the future. It's. It's a weird place to be.
- [15:03]
Big Woz
No, we. We have to. We had to lament the old system where they weren't super penalized for keeping miles Turner for $22 million a year. The Pacers, you know, market juggernaut that they are, it's. It's great that this is happening.
- [15:18]
Justin Barrier
I don't disagree. I would have loved to see him come back because there's enough of the guts of last year's team in order to make something of next season. Even without Halliburton playing devil's advocate, though, do you really want to be on the hook for four more years of Miles Turner? Is it actually beneficial for two years down the road when Halliburton comes back to punt on next season, get a high draft pick and go for it? You could argue that the Pacers don't really punt seasons. They really only did it once, I think, and they got Ben Matheran out of it. So maybe this is all moot to begin with, but I almost wonder if taking a step back long term is actually more beneficial in almost like a micro dosing way that the. The Celtics are with Tatum.
- [15:57]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I don't mind it. I think that's the question is, are they going to be bad enough to really take advantage of that? And I, I want to save that conversation for when we get to one of our other confusing east teams, because the Pacers just might be too good to do that. Like they might just have too many good and useful players. And frankly, a coach who's among the best at like taking undermanned rosters to overperforming records like this is just kind of what they do sometimes.
- [16:20]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Before we move on to a different team, can we talk about Dame just quickly?
- [16:24]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [16:24]
Justin Barrier
Because I've never seen a situation like this. Yes, he's in his mid-30s at this point and recovering from the devastating injury in the playoffs, but he gets to pick his team at this point. Like a max level player just gets to go wherever he wants. And so is there any team that you guys are hoping he would glom onto or is there any obvious fit that you think that he could just like walk into?
- [16:50]
Rob Mahoney
There's the one that I, I just assume he's going to be a member of the Miami Heat. Is, is that not a, is that not an assumption?
- [16:57]
Justin Barrier
I I honestly Hero Dean back court is stopping many people these days, but it is not.
- [17:04]
Big Woz
I, I the first thing that came to my mind was Houston as a Fred Van Vliet replacement next summer. That would be like in terms of ring chasing and all of that stuff, like their core and like the surrounding people being able to shield Dame from defensive pressures and stuff. That's what I thought I'd be like. Man, that would be pretty freaking sweet if that did happen. That's the one that came to my mind quickly.
- [17:33]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I have them written down. I also have the Clippers, if you could find a way to get off of James Harden next year. Because this is the issue there. It's like how much is Dame going to make? Because who has functionally a max slot or $30 million or $20 million just to add Dame as a free agent? Because these guys get traded specifically because the salary matching has to happen in order to get him on the books. Like Boston, for instance. Boston with Tatum and Brown and Dame, there's something there. I just don't know how they add him considering they're throwing away Lou Cornette because they can't afford him.
- [18:08]
Big Woz
I feel like the Dame thing, again, I have done talked to nobody about this. This is just me guessing because of the nature of the stretch. Like why couldn't a mid level get it done?
- [18:21]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, it's up to him.
- [18:23]
Big Woz
Seriously, like if you really dying to win and you care about fit and culture and who's over there, like a mid level could get this done no problem. We talking about 17 million on top of the 23. I'm at 40 mil now.
- [18:40]
Justin Barrier
When they announced the 8 in contract, they announced it as he will be making 34 million in totality because of what he got bought out plus what he'll make. They didn't even announce what he was making. That's how deep in the weeds we are at this point. So maybe they're working under the same logic there. I do think the one we have to bring up is Portland. Not only because I have to bring up Portland, but the context that he could slide into is literally the type of team that he was barking for for multiple years in the waning years of the Neil o' Shea era. It's like if you don't have OG and Mikhail, why not to money and Denny Abdia now they're going in a different direction. I almost wonder if like they hadn't done the Drew trade that would have made more sense because he's on the books for two more years after this one and now they got our guy Yang. So Yang, Yang Gang till we die.
- [19:31]
Rob Mahoney
See, can we do Yang Gang when it's Yang? This is my question.
- [19:36]
Big Woz
Yang Gong like a gong.
- [19:38]
Rob Mahoney
I think that's much worse.
- [19:39]
Justin Barrier
We definitely should not do that. But like they've, they almost moved on right before this happened and it seems like the door kind of closed a little like just right before they could have honestly jumped on this. So probably not. But yeah, he would fit a defense in depth team that they've built.
- [20:00]
Rob Mahoney
He really would. It's so funny the way these NBA life cycles work where it just kind of makes sense at a certain point for like yeah, the cavs could use LeBron James. Yeah, the Blazers could use Damian Lillard. It's like they have. Obviously replacing great players is difficult, but the fact that the Blazers do have that exact kind of defense first roster you're talking about Justin is. I don't know. I don't know if irony is the word for it, but it is. It's a funny place for all of this to end up. Where Dame could go to Miami, the place he wanted to go in the first place, he could go back to Portland with a roster that suits him better than the one that he left when he did leave. But he's not going to be a Milwaukee buck anymore, that's for sure. And I, I don't think he's too upset about that part. Like, I'm sure there is an ego hit to getting waved and stretched for a player as great as him, but he does get to call his shot. He does get this unique opportunity we're talking about where he can either have a unique financial opportunity of stacking contract on contract up to the moon, or he can have his basketball choice in addition to all the money he still owed. And that's, that's a powerful place to be.
- [21:02]
Big Woz
Yeah. The freedom to pick the team is, is crucial. And, you know, the smartest teams will get creative about how to piece the money together to make it feel like, you know what, man, this is, this is a salary worthy of my stature and my ability. And I think that's the coolest part is that. And I, I don't think this will happen for another summer. I don't know that he's going to be like, dying to get latched to a team as he's working on rehab. Like, it makes sense to gather the information of, like, what these teams actually look like next year and then figure it out.
- [21:36]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I think he is going to rehab in Portland because I've already started to see like, the Instagram ads I've been fed about the Dean Lillard birthday party.
- [21:47]
Big Woz
He's doing the birthday party this weekend, which is crazy that you're getting fed those ads.
- [21:54]
Justin Barrier
I'm a local, so maybe I'll pop in. Maybe if you want to get on.
- [21:59]
Big Woz
That guest list, I could get you on that list.
- [22:00]
Rob Mahoney
By the way, was got the connect.
- [22:02]
Justin Barrier
I don't think they want me on that guest list.
- [22:05]
Rob Mahoney
Well, I do want you, Justin. I want your take on Dame posting through it. You know, our guy has been out here in, in the wildest move of the off season so far, posting memes, posting pro Damien Giannis propaganda. How do, how do you feel about, you know, a guy who is of our ilk, generationally speaking, posting through it in real time?
- [22:26]
Justin Barrier
Well, it's ironic too, because wasn't he the one criticizing KD for running from the grind? And here he is yet again, following suit and being criminally online with some of his biggest haters. And so I guess, like, if he.
- [22:39]
Big Woz
Feels it was Paul George he was criticizing, but yes.
- [22:42]
Justin Barrier
Okay, well, there you go. Yeah, I don't know. I haven't seen much. I've mostly seen you guys putting it.
- [22:50]
Big Woz
Into the chat, you know, but he's just going about his son. He's like posting like rehab posting his brand new Dame 10, one of the only guys with 10 signature shoes, like, just. He's just like, as if it's just a normal NBA off season for Dan Willard. It's kind of funny, but it's good to not be online and be bitter and be like, they're going to rule the day. Like, I think people kind of understand that this was kind of an extreme thing for them to do. And, yeah, it is what it is. Life goes on.
- [23:20]
Justin Barrier
All right, let's go on ourselves. Let's do the Sacramento Kings next because they have been in the news of late, if only because I think a lot of people are trying to figure out just how they're going to get their hands on Jonathan Kaminga, that, like, was off the board going into the off season, that they would try to not only be in that race, but ultimately probably land him. I would guess that ultimately happens, although it seems a little difficult. In the meantime, they've also signed Dennis Schroeder for 15 million a year over the next three years, which just give me real, like, John Salmon's vibes of, like, Schroeder's a good player, but, like, how good is he? And we're also considering moving off of Malik Monk in a signing trade in order specifically to bring him in. It's just, there's a lot going on here. They traded Jonas Valencunas for Dario Sarich into money dump. I think they're getting Drew Eubanks after he clears waivers, so watch out for that one. There's just. Rob, it's a lot going on.
- [24:16]
Rob Mahoney
It's a lot going on. It's just like there's this arms race developing in the Western Conference, and the Kings are out here overpaying for Dennis Schroeder and trying to get in on Jonathan Kamingo. Like, I. I really do not like this roster. I. I just. I don't know how else to say it. I don't like this collection of players.
- [24:33]
Big Woz
Hold on, Rob, you don't think having Dennis Schroeder, Malik Monk, DeMar DeRozan and Zach Lavine.
- [24:40]
Rob Mahoney
Well, first of all, they're trying like hell to get rid of Malik Monk.
- [24:43]
Big Woz
Apparently as back court and wingmates that, like, that doesn't make mad sense to you?
- [24:49]
Rob Mahoney
Somehow? It doesn't, you know, somehow, somehow a team that has a lot of. I just don't understand how a team that is this like, quote unquote talented could have this much of a dearth of actual, like, functional playmaking. Like, none of it makes sense together. To me, we've seen in. In the very, very fairly brief Zach Lavine era. So far, this is not a winning basketball team. Ultimately it's this. Like they are fine enough offensively. Like they have scores, they have guys who can create shots, they have a technical hub in Damona Sabonis, but one that's resulting in what exactly? I don't know. With this collection of players, I don't think whatever they do on offense is nearly enough to overcome how just like disjointed and underperforming they're going to be on defense. Like, I just don't know how they're going to stop people and they don't have the firepower to overcome that. And so in that case, what are you doing? Why are you bringing Jonathan Kaminga to further muck up everything that you have that's already disjointed with yet another one of the most disjointed creators that's coming up on free agency?
- [25:53]
Big Woz
Man, I don't understand how a team could think they could build a 13th in the league ranked defense around Sabonis, DeRozan and LaVine. Those guys playing 36 minutes a game just ensures that you can't do that. Like you, you cannot and will not. And obviously they, they each have their own individual strengths. They're just not complimentary to one another.
- [26:20]
Rob Mahoney
Not at all.
- [26:20]
Big Woz
Like, it doesn't, it doesn't make for a well balanced NBA roster that we've seen that you have to have especially to win it like at the poll in the postseason. Like, I mean, I don't know that this is regular suited to win regular season basketball, much less what I just saw, these dog fights I just saw defensively in the NBA playoffs. And so yeah, the roster makes no sense. The ownership is bottom three in the NBA to the point where, you know, anytime I hear a player is untradeable, you gotta go back and say, wait a second, Phoenix exists, Sacramento exists. I mean like Kaminga, it's just like, why does Kaminga think he's gonna get $35 million a year? Sacramento exists. Apparently. It's like, this is tough and I don't see the vision of how it gets better. They just got a new gm, so essentially this is the vision of the new guy who they just brought in.
- [27:19]
Justin Barrier
I think it's the same vision because it's always Vivek's vision. Exactly would be the issue. And so if they do bring in Kaminga and they give him a bunch of money, are they starting him?
- [27:31]
Rob Mahoney
I think you would have to, right? Maybe.
- [27:33]
Justin Barrier
So who Comes off. Who plays point guard at that point? Are you just relying on DeMar DeRozan and Sabonis as ball handlers and like moving things offensively?
- [27:41]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, if they sign Kaminga to that kind of deal, I think they bench Keegan Murray, which would be a crazy thing to do.
- [27:49]
Justin Barrier
So who's shooting threes?
- [27:51]
Rob Mahoney
Well, that's the bonus now. Well, honestly, Sabonis might be their best three point shooter.
- [27:55]
Big Woz
Kamingus is not Mingus. Kaminga is not a better player player than Keegan Murray?
- [28:02]
Rob Mahoney
I don't think so.
- [28:03]
Big Woz
Not.
- [28:04]
Justin Barrier
It's close, but obviously Murray fits modern basketball a little bit more seamlessly.
- [28:10]
Rob Mahoney
So it's gonna be. Wait, hold on, hold on.
- [28:11]
Big Woz
The starting lineup is gonna be DeMar DeRozan, Sabonis Levine, Kaminga, Dennis Schroeder.
- [28:24]
Rob Mahoney
I, I think that's if they get Kaminga. I think that's it.
- [28:28]
Justin Barrier
Or maybe they just play big with.
- [28:30]
Rob Mahoney
Keegan in Kaminga and then bring who of the like. I guess you could send Demar if you want to try. Just Ben Schroeder and you're playing Zach. I guess you're playing Demona Sabonis at the point is what you're doing.
- [28:42]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Or just letting demar play like San Antonio.
- [28:47]
Rob Mahoney
That was a long time ago.
- [28:50]
Justin Barrier
I, I just don't see the vision here. And if anything, it, it reminds me of kings of, of old where they're just bringing in talents who will sign with them, who will want to be aboard because they're so desperate to get people to just want to sign up in Sacramento.
- [29:05]
Rob Mahoney
Here. Here's the upside to that, you know, as far as like getting the guys and the talents you can get when you can get them. As it stands, if they don't get Jonathan Kaminga, their top eight is that previous starting fo or I guess previous starting four, plus Dennis Schroeder. Keon Ellis, I assume will still be a part of the rotation. Devin Carter, who they were trying to work in post injury, I assume will be part of the rotation. And one of these two bigs between Dario Sarich and Drew Eubanks.
- [29:30]
Justin Barrier
Well, Clifford too. They're rookie.
- [29:32]
Rob Mahoney
That's fair. That's fair.
- [29:34]
Big Woz
Dario Sarge is not an NBA player.
- [29:36]
Rob Mahoney
He's a little cooked at this point.
- [29:38]
Justin Barrier
You forgot Drew Eubanks. Did you not hear me mention him?
- [29:41]
Rob Mahoney
I said Drew Eubanks said he was in.
- [29:43]
Justin Barrier
I'm just checking. Okay.
- [29:44]
Rob Mahoney
First of all, I would never forget Drew Eubanks. It's possible that the king should have forgotten Drew Eubanks. I Don't think that he is again fixing anything that's happening here. But that's just not a good enough like top eight or nine guys as it is. And so from a talent perspective, let's get the guy we can get. Jonathan Kaminga. He just happens to be one of the worst theoretical fits with all the players on this roster that you could honestly like create in a lab. He's a terrible fit. Much less of the players actually available in the NBA.
- [30:12]
Justin Barrier
So since we're talking about the Kaminga derby, why don't we go with the Heat Now Rob, which is one of your teams.
- [30:19]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. This was a 37 win team A season ago and they are just kind of sitting on their hands slowly drifting into Chicago Bulls territory. What. What is the plan? Look, what is the plan here exactly? It's the same question I would ask the Bulls like what. What is.
- [30:36]
Big Woz
What's whale hunting? They're whale hunting. Riles, the guys.
- [30:40]
Rob Mahoney
That's illegal. We've already covered that. You cannot hunt whales.
- [30:44]
Justin Barrier
Well, they got big tech.
- [30:48]
Rob Mahoney
So yeah, just some of what's happened so far. They did a sign in trade sending out Duncan Robinson and bringing back Simone Fontechio. Honestly, I'm. I'm here for it. I think some, I think Fontechio, it would be a good member of the Miami Heat. They brought back Davion Mitchell. I like it. Good value, good deal.
- [31:03]
Big Woz
Especially the way he played at the end of the year and then like making threes like a mug guarding the hell out of people. Full court fits alum great deal and.
- [31:13]
Rob Mahoney
A great fit for Mitchell. Like I think he showed that this is like a situation in which he can really thrive. Other than that, like we know who Bam is, we know who Tyler Herro is. Even after a great season of development in which he showed a lot of new stuff all star season, we also saw that neither of them are good enough to carry a roster that looks like this. And we saw them run straight smack into the wall. From a creation standpoint in the playoffs of just like they. There are plenty of good to serviceable players on Miami's roster right now. They are. There's nowhere near enough shock creation. Even with Tyler Hero flexing out, even with Davion Mitchell taking steps forward as a point over the course of last.
- [31:50]
Big Woz
Year and some Andrew Wiggins centric offense.
- [31:54]
Rob Mahoney
You cannot interest me nor anyone who watched him back in his Minnesota days. That's not, that's not of interest to me particularly but so I, I don't know what they're supposed to do or what they are doing.
- [32:05]
Justin Barrier
Well, Wiggins is an interesting subject, though, because he seems to be in buzz, suggesting that they might be willing to trade him out. And so that just says to me one. Yeah. That they're probably reaching. They don't really have a clear path forward. And so maybe they'll send someone out or maybe he'll just be a key cog in their next team. But it also means that maybe they're just still doing stuff. I'm a little bit more in wait and see mode with them, so maybe they do fit the confounded confusing shtick right now. But it seems like they're not done.
- [32:36]
Rob Mahoney
I think they're not done. I just worry about the timeline of what that means. Like, you know, when you get it to these teams that are sort of perpetually in wait and see mode, that are perpetually in big game hunting mode, you just end up sitting there with Andrew Wiggins for a while. Sometimes you just end up sitting there having like, incredibly middling seasons year over year and accomplishing very little in terms of development, in terms of actually cultivating the pieces that will get you the next great version of your team. Like, I don't know where that's happening in Miami right now, save for the most exciting part of their roster. And I. I assume the most exciting part of their games next season will just be watching K. Ware do his thing like that that I'm pumped for. And. And getting the next stage of his development other than that untouchable in the KD deal apparently may perhaps so. And. And look, I'm not even saying they should have traded for Kevin Durant. Cause Kevin Durant does not fix this team. Like, he does not get them where they need to go.
- [33:26]
Big Woz
Certainly not.
- [33:27]
Rob Mahoney
But they need something to go somewhere.
- [33:33]
Big Woz
Where. What. What are they supposed to do? Like, they don't have some incredible war chest of assets, etc. Like, bam out of bio is pretty much like appropriately paid, right? Like, he's a good player. He's not on some great team, friendly deal. Same for Tyler Hero now that he's got re upped. Like, what is. What are they supposed to be moving? That's supposed to be getting them in position to do some great big splash. I'm just not seeing it. And whatever. Stay in the course. Maybe you say, yo, we roll the balls out. We're building this thing slowly. Okay, sure. If by slowly that means nine in the east for the next three years. Is that a snail's pace? I just don't. I don't see the logic of this roster and the team building, I just. I just don't get it. I don't see it.
- [34:28]
Justin Barrier
I liked how in the past few years that they focused on having a pipeline via the draft because in years past, they've been able to unearth very good players. Hero and Bam or draft picks that were draft much lower than you'd expect, considering how well they've done in the NBA. Where might be the next version of that? Unfortunately, a lot of those guys have been kind of middling, like Jovic and Hawkez. And so what they've ended up, we'll see with Yakushunas. I think a lot of people are excited about what he could do there. He fits, like, kind of that physical, like, movement style that I think SPO is looking for. But if you're just getting like, okay rotation players, eventually you're just going to be an okay team that just, like, kind of sits in the middle of the East. And so where's the next star? And so I don't fault them for maybe going out there and saying, we want a whale. We want a whale because they need one. Because they have the feeder system for everything around that player by actually finding that player is what they need at this point.
- [35:26]
Rob Mahoney
Here's the thing. I would. I would argue that they don't even have the support system yet. Like, you could look at Houston's roster last year and say, like, that's a team that has everything but. Everything but the Kevin Durant kind of star. I look at Miami and like, I think if anything, we might be too kind saying that Jaime Hawkes has been like, an okay role player. Like, he was not a good NBA player last season. Jovic, I think, has moments and is like, Jovic, like, fits into a lineup and kind of makes some kind of sense and can. Can sop up minutes. Like, that's a thing that he can do at this stage. It may be unspectacular, but he can at least do that. I just don't see enough guys on the roster who are rising above that threshold. It's a lot of, like, this is good enough for now, but will it be good enough when the star does become available? Will it be good enough to entice that star trade in the first place. Like, I would like to see more of the support system that would eventually help a future Miami Heat superstar. And I don't. I don't really see that outside of Bam and Tyler Hero and like, the potential of someone like Ware.
- [36:21]
Big Woz
Now they're going to be first in line in the Giannis Derby, guys, don't worry. That's, that's, that's what the Miami front office wants you out to know. The next time a big guy comes on the market, the Heat are going to be right there.
- [36:34]
Justin Barrier
Right. And it will probably cost them where in order to go and get that guy. And so, like, who's left? It's hero and bam. Just have to be better and have to work more better in concert in order to get them anywhere. And so I ultimately think it defaults to the same question, whether or not they get a star or not. Let's talk about the warriors, though. Just because they're kind of like the spiritual, just like east coast version of what happened last year, because the warriors are in a good place overall. But I have noticed a glaring lack of activity in free agency. A lot of it has come down to, it seems like Al Horford and whether or not he's going to be willing to sign there. I think there are a lot of suggestions that he might ultimately get there, which would be good. They need a center first and foremost, and I do think he has the size and shooting combination that would actually fit there. And obviously the smarts, but it seems like they need something else. And I don't know what they're even going to get from a Kaminga sign in trade in order to take them to the next level. And so I have some trade ideas down here, but I'm curious what you guys think first and foremost about what the warriors are doing or maybe not doing.
- [37:43]
Rob Mahoney
If the summer is just trading out Kavon Looney for Al Horford, that's an upgrade and helps, but it doesn't help in some of the things you need, which is like, where are you getting some offensive oomph outside of Steph and Jimmy? Like, those guys clearly can do their job. Jimmy will see over the course of the regular season how hard he wants to go, how much creation he wants to do. Not usually his job as he sees it. And so, like, they could use someone, honestly, if we're getting into the Kaminga Derby with Sacramento, like a Malik Monk, like, I think they could use some of that kind of firepower. They could use someone who's just bringing a little something different in terms of the creative aspects of their offense if that player is entrusted to do that, which is, I guess, sort of always the subtext with Steve Kerr is like, is what is he open to those kinds of creators and that kind of helps, or is he always going to lean towards the Al Horford types.
- [38:31]
Big Woz
Yeah, if you're the warriors, you definitely love the way your team finished down the stretch after the Jimmy trade. Like, they were just a much better team afterwards. But they did have to expend themselves in just borderline extreme ways, like they had to kill themselves to get to the seventh seed or whatever the hell they ended up with last year. And so, yeah, they do need pieces that can make it so that Jimmy and Steph could stay at, like 35 minutes, 34 minutes a night in the regular season so that they're not completely spent and, you know, pulling muscles and stuff like that when the post season comes. So, you know, you wonder if the front office can get creative. I'm. I'm suspicious as to why that Horford thing is taking so long. I mean, we are on day four. It feels like that should be done and dusted by now, especially when you consider Boston's just thirst to just banish every single supporting player that they've ever employed. And so, yeah, I wonder. I don't like, you know, Dunleavy Jr. Doesn't have some, like, long track record with this stuff, so I'm not sure what to expect from him. But, yeah, they do need a little bit more offensive punch. And bringing in Al Horford, it's just he is a Kerr player made in a freaking lab. Like, just straight up, just Steve Kerr's cup of tea all day. So I think that would be massive, even at age 52. But, yeah, I'm keeping my eye on them, for sure.
- [40:04]
Rob Mahoney
Well, let's. Let's raise that question, because my assumption is that the warriors will get Al Horford, but what happens if they don't? Like, what happens if he has a change of heart? Or maybe it's not as far along as the reporting and rumors have suggested. Like, I think the problem. Yeah, the problem with waiting this long is not that you've missed out on Mason Plumlee. Like, that's not really the problem. The problem is Mason Plumlee being off the market tells you a lot about what's left on it. And there are not a. There are not a lot of guys out there left. Especially that fit Golden State basketball missed out on dominating.
- [40:37]
Big Woz
No, he would have been a tremendous curve player.
- [40:40]
Justin Barrier
Still believe he's gonna have a month stretch where everyone's gonna be like, whoa. And then he's gonna disappear for two months.
- [40:48]
Big Woz
The reason I'm skeptical of that, Justin, is that not even the Laker Internet hype machine can bring themselves to hype the Aiden signing.
- [40:57]
Justin Barrier
That's just because everyone's already preemptively shame them for like thinking that Aiden is even like a live body. He's a supremely athletic, large guy who everyone actually kind of liked on the team. Now he will have some, let's call them, foible. So he will have some moments where you're like, what's going on here on the court?
- [41:16]
Big Woz
Jason, quick piece on this. Was eyebrow raising just a little bit.
- [41:22]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, that was, I think that was one perspective on what happened there. I, I think the players themselves were quite fond. Yeah.
- [41:29]
Big Woz
Okay.
- [41:31]
Justin Barrier
But you know he's gonna take too long on an injury. He's also maybe not going to roll as hard as you want to and settle for too many jumpers. He literally had a 1 free throw attempt rate for the past 2 years. I think they're both under 2.
- [41:45]
Rob Mahoney
Preposterous.
- [41:45]
Big Woz
Honestly, giant for somebody that big.
- [41:49]
Justin Barrier
But I think if he, if he fits the Javale McGee track, which I'll say again, sure, I think there's something there. But I actually do like him. Especially if they get Horford and they work in concert rather it's just him and nobody else. But that's a whole other thing. I think if the warriors get Horford, I honestly wonder if it helps their trade position as well because he is 39 years old and you're looking at that team and being like, what's going to happen in four years? And they only have one first round pick due at this point. And so if I'm a team, I'm looking at their far away picks and being like, oh, that's something I can sell to my fan base. At the very least that those are juicy assets. The same way we talked about Denver trading their 2032 pick, it's like Yoko is going to be 37. Steph's going to be in his 40s by the time some of those picks are going to cash in. And so I'd be looking to leverage my, my drafts in order to get players. It's a little dicier if they don't get a center because I was thinking more in terms of the wing help. But I think the Pelicans are just like a natural fit for them, if only because like, maybe they can just supplement whatever non pick they get next year with the warriors and then get the other stuff in the future. But I would be asking for Trey Murphy first and foremost. I think he makes a lot of sense. I don't know if they would part with him, but I have to say, like Herb Jones as the third on the troika of Jimmy Draymond and Herb.
- [43:08]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, my God.
- [43:09]
Justin Barrier
That might be the nastiest defensive trio I think I could ever think of. And if he's hitting threes like he has in recent years, I think he would be a perfect fit there.
- [43:17]
Rob Mahoney
I think the. The whole league right now, I, I think is salivating pretty hard at. At the idea of Herb Jones being available. We'll have to see because clearly, look, the Pelicans, I don't even know what to make of. And maybe we'll talk about them.
- [43:31]
Big Woz
There's rumors out there that the reason why they gave up the pick is that they just asked. It seems like, yo, we want to pick for this. It's like, sure, take that next year.
- [43:43]
Rob Mahoney
Are you ready to revisit your take yet? Was. Are you, like, digging down even deeper?
- [43:48]
Big Woz
It's definitely dealt an injurious blow to my take that the sky isn't falling in New Orleans. That was my take. Not that the move was amazing.
- [43:57]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [43:57]
Big Woz
That the sky isn't falling. But yeah, Jody, not inspiring too much confidence at the moment.
- [44:04]
Rob Mahoney
I will say there was some reporting from Shamad Dua in his, like, draft night recap that apparently the Hawks had to, like, call multiple times through multiple avenues to be like, are. Are we sure this pick is involved? Are we sure you're actually offering what we think you're offering? Not a good sign when that has to happen.
- [44:22]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I don't think we need any investigative reporting to find out that they don't really know what they're doing there.
- [44:27]
Rob Mahoney
It helps, though. I like the context, but I think.
- [44:29]
Justin Barrier
They'Re natural trade partners with the Warriors.
- [44:32]
Big Woz
Sweet. Herb Jones would be an amazing word. So would Trey. Trey Murphy, obviously would be another incredible Warrior. Yeah.
- [44:39]
Justin Barrier
But then the obvious ones come up. I think Derrick White would make a lot of sense not only to help, like with the offensive side of things, but slides right into that two spot and can maybe run the offense when Steph sits. And then Lowry would be the other one. I do think the Pelicans, though, are the natural candidate, so they need to do something. Long winded way of saying, I think the warriors are primed to give away their future because they have made such a concerted effort over the past six months to be like, we're now we're stopping with the two timelines.
- [45:09]
Big Woz
I think the warriors need to figure out how to construct a team that doesn't ask Jimmy and Steph to play the way they played in the playoffs all year long. They should. They should have to save that for the postseason and not be doing it all regular season long because the roster is so limited that way offensively.
- [45:28]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Do you guys want to do one of your teams now maybe was with the Raptors?
- [45:35]
Big Woz
So, yeah. What the hell is going on with the Raptors? And to be fair, a lot of this wasn't the offseason. I think the Jacob Pearl deal raised a lot of eyebrows. He opted in and they extended him for three years. I think 87 million. The last of that year is not fully guaranteed, but still, like, it basically comes out to four years, 100 something million dollars. And again, Jacob Pertle is a legitimate player, is a legitimate big man. Like, I don't think he's a scrub by any means, but 22 per for him. IQ at 32, Brandon Ingram at 40. And the same for Scotty Barnes. And it's like, for what? Like, what is the. Like, what is the best case scenario of the Raptors season ending, like, next year? Isn't it, like, 39 wins? Am I crazy for saying that?
- [46:35]
Rob Mahoney
Best. Like, best case.
- [46:36]
Big Woz
You think there were 47 win team?
- [46:38]
Rob Mahoney
I. I certainly do not. Best case may be, like, Scotty Barnes has a transformational season and all these pieces kind of click into place and they are sort of in the mix for, let's say, the six seed, the five, six spots in the East. Like, I think that is the absolute best case season for the Raptors. More realistically, like, let's just go through the other teams in the east right now. Teams that are clearly better than Toronto, Cleveland, New York, Orlando, Detroit, Atlanta, I think are all so clearly better. That's five teams, probably better teams. Milwaukee, I think is probably better.
- [47:15]
Big Woz
Probably. I.
- [47:16]
Rob Mahoney
Look, they still have Giannis. Like, they still have.
- [47:20]
Big Woz
Last.
- [47:21]
Rob Mahoney
Last year, more or less. This team won 48 games.
- [47:24]
Big Woz
Sure.
- [47:25]
Rob Mahoney
Like, yeah. So let's say Milwaukee.
- [47:26]
Big Woz
A lot of wins, honestly.
- [47:27]
Rob Mahoney
Right. I'm gonna. I'm gonna say Philly is probably better next season than Toronto, which might be giving them too much credit. But look, this is the threshold I'm willing to go on. Indiana, I don't know. I honestly don't know what to do with the Pacers from a regular season standpoint. And so you can put Indiana in that group or you can put them in the next group, which I would say is, like, in the mix. Indiana, Miami, Chicago, Toronto. So we're saying, like, seven teams are definitively better than the Raptors, and then they're fighting for scraps with these other. Other three or four. Like, that's not enough for how much they're investing in this group. That's not enough for the model that they're creating.
- [48:05]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, that's what's so curious about the Pearl Extension, which takes them five seasons. Now he's locked in for the Toronto Raptors. They've almost locked in the core of a team that has either underperformed or not even performed altogether. And so you're either wish casting or looking at a team that needs a lot of ifs in order to get their to their best possible version. I agree with Robert, like, oh, if Brandon Ingram accepts this certain role and shoots more threes or if this guy ends up playing doing all the good things we like about him and actually cutting out all the bad things. But we don't know that and frankly the Raptors don't even know that at this point because these guys literally have not all played together because Brandon Ingram hasn't played there yet. So I, I guess there's a certain aspect to this. I read this, I think in Eric Karine's report on the Athletic that in previous eras under Masai, they like to reward guys in part because it was so tough to convince them to stay in Toronto to begin with. And maybe the bones of that sort of approach is filtering into this new era where Bobby Webster is seeing overseeing things until they officially like hire him as the main guy or get somebody else. And so maybe that's playing a part in it too. We just don't know like the dynamics of getting guys to stay in Toronto. Yeah, but these aren't the guys I'd want to stay in Toronto to begin with.
- [49:31]
Big Woz
And so what was Brandon Ingram being rewarded for?
- [49:35]
Rob Mahoney
Well, but that's been sort of the model too is like some of it is rewarding, as Justin is saying, the guys who you want to keep around who have done something good for the franchise, some of it is like they've brought in guys who are on close to expiring deals in order to lock them up with these sorts of extensions and resigning because they didn't think they'd be able to get an RJ Barrett caliber player on the open market. They didn't think they'd be able to get Brandon Ingram on the open market or a player like him. The issue for me is like Brandon.
- [50:02]
Big Woz
Ingram, you can't get on the open market.
- [50:04]
Rob Mahoney
Well, I don't. If you're Toronto, maybe you believe that.
- [50:09]
Justin Barrier
He'S making a shit ton of money. Now that we're being hit by the off season sticker shock and seeing some of the deals that just got signed, all of their deals look worse.
- [50:18]
Big Woz
Oh yeah, the IQ deal, which I wasn't like so mad at when they first did. I'm like, if IQ becomes a starting point guard, he's worth $32 million a year. But like he just hasn't put that on the floor. And I was like, well, they need like somebody who can pull up threes on, you know, pick and rolls. Cause they have no shooting as usual. Um, I, I thought like, yeah, in the best case scenario and up ticking minutes like him bringing his shooting and off the dribble pop like that'll be worth it. But it, he has not put that on the floor. And this deal is just getting started.
- [50:54]
Rob Mahoney
I know. And like Justin, you laid out like the, the ifs. If you can convince Brandon Ingram to be the player that now multiple teams have tried to convince him to be as like a three point shooter, a real threat, a catch and shoot guy. This is a team that was like near dead last in the league in 3 point percentage and 3 point rate. Like they just need people who can shoot. Brandon Ingram can theoretically shoot. He can theoretically do a lot of things. I have yet to see Brandon Ingram work with anybody. Like he just is not a player who brings out positive things in the players around him and he does not play off of the players around him. And so I think Toronto's going to be a solid enough defensive team. I just don't know how any of this is going to work together offensively.
- [51:34]
Big Woz
And again, I'm going to be thinking about this Julius Randle deal all year. Because one, he was a baby Laker just like Brandon Ingram. Because the Wolves waited till the off season. They didn't get trigger happy after trading for a guy. And this guy delivered for them in the postseason in big ass games and big ass moments. And he still only got 33 million PER. When has Brandon Ingram ever been as good as Julius Randle was this year? Never. Oh no, it's never happened. This is crazy.
- [52:12]
Justin Barrier
Made an all star team, was like pretty okay in the first round. But hey, listen, Minneapolis in the summer, guys are signing up for that.
- [52:23]
Rob Mahoney
Honestly, it is beautiful. Genuinely, I love, I love when people.
- [52:27]
Big Woz
Talk up the Midwest for the two months of the year. That is tolerable.
- [52:30]
Rob Mahoney
It's pretty great, I gotta say.
- [52:32]
Justin Barrier
You might have to walk through an underground like tunnel system in order to get places in the winter, but yeah, the summer's nice.
- [52:39]
Rob Mahoney
It's a whole thing. But look, this is a big summer for the baby Lakers. You know, you Got. You got Brandon Ingram as the one of the new faces of the Toronto Raptors. You have Jordan Clarkson and Josh Hart reunited in New York. Congratulations to them. Julius Randle getting paid, Lonzo Ball getting traded. Every.
- [52:55]
Big Woz
Everything is happening for Lonzo that he moved on. He's going to play for a winner. That's dope.
- [52:59]
Rob Mahoney
That's right. Larry Nance going home again.
- [53:01]
Justin Barrier
Going home. God, all the baby Lakers are now aging into final contracts. Like trying to ring Chase.
- [53:07]
Rob Mahoney
That's.
- [53:08]
Justin Barrier
That's dark.
- [53:10]
Big Woz
We're cooked.
- [53:11]
Justin Barrier
We didn't talk. Yeah, I know. We didn't talk about Masai getting foisted out. Apparently they gave him his own personal cook chair for the draft too, and then fired him literally the next day. Seemed inevitable, both because of recent results and also this infighting that's occurring between like the, the two factions that were in charge of the Raptors. The one that now is lording over things is not a fan of Masai. And so he ultimately goes. It's just, it's wild because Rob, he was like one of the guys who was Teflon for so long. He was the guy that like teams were wanting to trade multiple picks, Sam Presti style in order to get to run their operation. Now here he is a couple of years later just looking for work.
- [53:56]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I mean, widely regarded for such a long time as one of the best and sharpest executives in the league, as somebody who was wheeling and dealing and making all this stuff happen for the Toronto Raptors. I think most crucially like bringing a cultural identity to the organization that it had been missing. Like the Raptors had had successful teams but they didn't have a sense of bravado and having someone who, you know, if it's not going to be your. If your players are going to be a little more stoic, a little more put their hard hat on and go to work. You need somebody who's going to be sort of a mouthpiece for the organization. Having a guy on a stage yelling fuck Brooklyn or whatever it was. Messiah said back in the day, like that's a meaningful thing to have. And I think his sense of presence bought him a lot of time there and bought him a lot of benefit of the doubt. And some of the moves he made in particular, we should say, to get Toronto a championship bought him a lot of time there. Post title. I don't think the Raptors have covered themselves in glory and that was a worthwhile year.
- [54:48]
Big Woz
Was good. That was it.
- [54:50]
Rob Mahoney
But the Tampa year was not. Yeah, you know, like there, there There have been really, really tough moments for that organization and so many cases empirically where you can now say, waited too long on Pascal Siakam.
- [55:01]
Big Woz
That was a terrible deal.
- [55:02]
Rob Mahoney
Waited too long on OG Anunoby. Terrible. Waited too long on Kyle Lowry.
- [55:07]
Big Woz
Left for free Fred Van Vliet.
- [55:09]
Rob Mahoney
Yep, like that's just how it turned out.
- [55:12]
Big Woz
Signed a bunch of guys who can't shoot, but they're lengthy. It's tough. It's tough.
- [55:18]
Justin Barrier
Turns out getting the young veterans and then signing them immediately wasn't some super like three dimensional chess move that we just couldn't figure out. Turns out maybe it was just bad.
- [55:28]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [55:29]
Justin Barrier
Well, speaking of bad, Rob, I think it's time for your last team.
- [55:33]
Rob Mahoney
We have to talk about the Phoenix Suns.
- [55:37]
Justin Barrier
Is there much to figure out here? I think it's kind of on the wall.
- [55:40]
Rob Mahoney
Well, let's start with this. Who is going to start for the Phoenix Suns? My assumpt is that Booker and Beal and Jalen Green are all going to start. No, I'm assuming you trade. Should I stop there? Are we, are we not assuming those guys are all going to start?
- [55:54]
Big Woz
Maybe one does.
- [55:57]
Justin Barrier
No way.
- [55:58]
Big Woz
No, there's some way.
- [56:01]
Rob Mahoney
Here's the thing. Devin Booker is the closest thing this team has to an actual point guard. Yeah, I would say Colin Gillespie is the second closest. So if you would like to start Colin Gillespie, you can. I think all three of those guys are going to start. I think they didn't trade two firsts for Mark Williams for him to not start. And because somebody has to do the dirty work around here, I assume Dylan Brooks is going to start as well. What the fuck is that lineup? Like, what is that?
- [56:24]
Big Woz
Wait, Dylan Brooks is the four, I guess here?
- [56:27]
Rob Mahoney
I think so. Dylan brooks at the 4, Mark Williams and your three shooting guards.
- [56:33]
Justin Barrier
I think Beal is probably projected to come off the bench like he did most of the back end of last season or they're just going to try to lock him in a room George Costanza style and like turn the heat up and like let people use his special bathroom because I think they're trying to get him out of the building as quickly as possible.
- [56:52]
Rob Mahoney
So who, who would you start instead?
- [56:55]
Justin Barrier
I wouldn't start Grayson Allen or Beal. I would probably find actual point guard and I guess they're still technically in the mix for Chris Paul, which is something that's crazy. But yeah, I would bring both guys off the bench or I would trade Green.
- [57:15]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, as would I. But this, look, this is part of the problem with where The Suns are. They have clearly all of these shooting guards. We've all been talking about it, joking about it, including Grayson Allen, including all these pieces. Just like guys who cannot play in combinations together all the time, you need more length on the floor, you need a diversity of skill set. All those things at the same time, there's, you know, some chatter out there that they're trying to sign Devin Booker to a two year, $150 million extension. Devin Booker, I will say, very good player. One of the most theoretically malleable skill sets in the league. Not all that malleable when he doesn't want to be, you know, like so far in the NBA, we're going to put the Olympics off to the side. Yeah. If you're playing with LeBron and Steph, I guess clearly you're willing to defer in a different way. But on NBA teams has mostly been a hardliner about playing his game and his style and power to him, I'm not trying to take that away from him, but that's who he is. They want to give him $150 million. I get it. He's your best player.
- [58:09]
Big Woz
Inching towards the Devin Booker might be overrated camp, to be honest, that conversation.
- [58:16]
Rob Mahoney
Is coming, I think two, three years.
- [58:18]
Big Woz
Ago he felt like he was coming on par with like the best guards in the NBA. The last two years has not felt like that at all. And people could say, oh, messed up roster, the KD sulking, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like Booker individually hasn't gotten it done to the level of his reputation that you would be entertaining paying this guy like Bro shepherd this team to like 40 something wins this year. And we could talk about extending you, but just extending you just because you're eligible, you're going to continue to be eligible for that. I don't why are we doing that? Why are we thirsty to do that?
- [59:00]
Justin Barrier
I think I take Rob's point about his lack of malleability, especially considering what you see in an international stage. But oftentimes I feel like his issue is one of that your best player needs to be your leader and he's not necessarily that type of person willing to sacrifice and bend in order to make things work. Which is ironic because he seems pretty convinced that he wants to play his entire career aisle Kobe style with the Phoenix Suns. And you would hope that that is the exact type of person would be kind of your totem there. But overall, like skill wise and performance wise, like his season last year wasn't all that different to an all NBA season. It just seems like his, the success of the team is based more off the context of who's around him rather than Booker being the differentiator in some of those teams. And which is why I think Chris Paul makes a certain amount of sense because Booker was at his best kind of following Paul's lead and allowing him to set the table completely.
- [59:54]
Rob Mahoney
And look, there are stars that are great independent of context. They're basically the four or five best players in the league. Everyone else is dependent on a Chris Paul or a screening big or enough spacing from the wings. Like everybody needs help in that way. I think what's frustrating from a Phoenix perspective is like, if Devin Booker is going to be that guy, if he's going to play his way and you're going to need to accommodate him, that's fine. Bradley Beal is a no trade clause. He's not getting moved unless he wants to or unless, as Justin said, you sufficiently make him uncomfortable. Uh, Jalen Green doesn't have a no trade clause, but he does have a very tepid market and there isn't a lot of, there aren't a lot of teams out there clamoring to get into the Jalen Green business, which is part of what made him being a prime return for Kevin Durant such like a funky way for that to end. Like, I don't know if they believe that they're going to reroute Jalen Green quickly again. I will believe it when I see it. We've been having those conversations for literal years now. So something has to give here, right? Like the, the structure of this team does not really work as it is. And we've talked about all of the other formidable teams in the West. For every Sacramento, there's like three other west teams that are going to be getting better. I just don't know what room there is for Phoenix or why this is supposed to make sense. I don't, I don't think they had great circumstances coming into the summer to begin with, but I will not like, I just don't think they've done particularly well even with those lesser circumstances.
- [61:12]
Big Woz
Well, it's a good thing they have Dayton's fourth winningest all time coach at the helm to shepherd this whole thing through. Like it might work. You gotta have the ultimate confidence in that for sure.
- [61:24]
Justin Barrier
I think we actually talked around the solution if, if Booker was at his best playing alongside LeBron James, maybe they need to make a trade.
- [61:31]
Rob Mahoney
LeBron, wow.
- [61:32]
Justin Barrier
Hey, Luka, wanna play with Jalen Green? He's had a really good summer. He's attacking these doubles in the summer and not asking for people to change up their coverages.
- [61:43]
Rob Mahoney
Look at that.
- [61:49]
Big Woz
I can see Rob Pelinka getting on the phone and saying something that's stupid.
- [61:52]
Rob Mahoney
By the way, I. I hope. I really hope not for everybody involved. Credit where it's due. I'm excited to have Nigel Hayes Davis in the league and. And give him a chance with a quite decorated career overseas to come in and hopefully be some kind of flamethrower from the perimeter like the Suns. Could use some of that. So I'm. I'm eager to see what he can do in Phoenix.
- [62:13]
Justin Barrier
Can he play shooting guard?
- [62:15]
Rob Mahoney
Well, good news. I think he's big enough to technically play the three, but spiritually, he's a shooting guard, so that's. That might be an issue.
- [62:22]
Justin Barrier
Great. Why don't we wrap it there? We'll be back on Monday. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll talk to you next time.