The NBA’s Late Leapers. Plus, Trae Young’s Exit Plan and the Big Three Hornets. | Group Chat

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show: Group Chat

Episode: "The NBA’s Late Leapers. Plus, Trae Young’s Exit Plan and the Big Three Hornets."
Release Date: January 8, 2026
Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into three main themes:

1. The Trae Young trade rumors and what his possible exit means for the Washington Wizards’ young core.
2. An in-depth look at the Charlotte Hornets’ trio of Lamelo Ball, Brandon Miller, and Con Knipple, and whether this “Big Three” signals real progress.
3. A spirited roundtable on NBA “late leapers” — players who are making significant developmental jumps later than expected, including Anthony Black (Magic), Keyonte George (Jazz), and Donovan Clingan (Blazers).

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1. Trae Young Trade Rumors: What Should the Wizards Do?

[04:00–16:00]

Key Discussion Points:

• Trae Young’s Trade Market: The only serious rumored suitor for Young is the Wizards, as most rebuilding teams don’t need another ball-dominant guard.

  • Rob Mahoney: “The only team that seems to have its hand up right now is the Washington Wizards.” [04:19]

• Wizards’ Roster Fit and Player Development:

  • Justin and Rob debate if adding Young helps or hurts player growth. Trey could help role players like Bilal Coulibaly find easier shots, but might suppress upside for possible stars.
  • Justin Verrier: “If your goal is to turn Bilal Koulibaly into the best version of a role player he can be, putting him alongside Trae is good.... But if you want Ball Koulibaly to be someone who's ever knocking on the door of stardom, I think playing with Trae is not the path you want.” [07:53]

• The Front Office Angle and Fan Restlessness:

  • The Wizards’ dilemma: keep tanking or satiate a fanbase starved for relevance after eight straight years of lottery picks.
  • Rob Mahoney: “I do have to wonder at a certain point... are people starting to get itchy fingers wanting at the very least, like a semblance of competitive basketball out there?” [11:04]

• CJ McCollum’s Influence vs. Trae’s Potential Impact:

  • The hosts note McCollum already “takes a lot of shots” and plays heavy on-ball minutes, so is Young actually an upgrade?

• Notable Moment:

  • J. Kyle (on Trae’s play style): “We need the Wizards to be more of a Montessori where we teach these guys to be self-sufficient a little bit. Whereas... we're gonna have Trae Young maybe even literally chew Bilal Koulibaly's food for him.” [09:12]

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2. Big Three Hornets: Are Lamelo, Miller, and Knipple for Real?

[16:00–30:00]

Key Discussion Points:

• Charlotte’s Breakthrough:

  • The trio is 9–6 when playing together and recently notched a signature win over OKC.
  • Rob Mahoney: “They have been pretty good... when Lamelo, Brandon Miller and Con Knipple all play together, they're nine and six this season.” [16:51]

• Offensive Synergy & Scheme Innovation:

  • The group’s ability as tall, multi-positional, live-dribble shooters creates unique matchup issues—mirroring Boston’s model, but with a younger twist.
  • J. Kyle Mann: “When you have... Miller, Knipple and Lamelo... they can all three pass on the move. They're all very dynamic shooters... and they're all tall. That's the interesting thing.” [18:34]

• Brandon Miller’s Growth:

  • Miller's return from injury and newfound edge—including posterizing Kyle Kuzma—shows All-Star flashes.
  • Rob Mahoney: “He’s come back from this most recent injury and seems to be playing with a little bit more of an edge. Almost like he’s just coasting off the vibes of nearly ending Kyle Kuzma’s life...” [21:19]

• The Need for a Big Man:

  • The Hornets’ offensive engine is clear, but a rim-protecting, versatile big remains the missing piece.
  • J. Kyle Mann: “Are they... a legitimate big away from this really flowing into something… would we say that’s right?” [22:56]

• Lamelo’s Adaptability:

  • Clear that Knipple’s emergence allows Lamelo to be less heliocentric (“Trey Young–like”) and more a chaotic off-ball elevator.
  • Justin Verrier: “Everything you just laid out about Lamello... also strikes me as the ultimate praise for Khan Canipple and how quickly he's just become a steady hand for an offense." [25:49]

• Draft Targets:

  • Early brainstorming on what type of big the Hornets should target to elevate their lineup: a “hub big” with playmaking chops to pair with Miller and Knipple.

• Notable Moment:

  • J. Kyle (on Miller): “He feels like the get out of jail free card for this offense and Khan feels like the flow initiation element and Lamelo is just sort of like the chaotic elevator of the group.” [21:54]

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3. Late Leapers: Players Making Big Mid-Career Jumps

[32:17–66:25]

Anthony Black (Orlando Magic)

• “Killer Bees” Trio:

  • Black’s aggression, improved shooting (47% in last 10 games on catch-and-shoot), and relentless downhill play have established a promising synergy with Paolo Banchero and Desmond Bane.
  • Justin Verrier: “He’s... making his own flow and that’s an important elevation... now he's kind of making his own flow and that's an important elevation for a lot of young players.” [33:26]
  • J. Kyle Mann: “He just has a nastiness to him... you start, you're just seeing him get to the rim...” [34:30]

• Positional Versatility and the New “Athlete” Guard:

  • Discussion of NBA’s trend toward big, bendy non-traditional guards who aren’t true point guards but are “problem solvers.”
  • Rob Mahoney: “There feels like this little kind of crew of guys... the Amen Thompson types, the Stefan Castle types, who are point guards in name only, but they're like really just athletes.” [35:48]

• Orlando’s Roster Math:

  • Black’s growth creates looming, tough extension decisions (Suggs/Franz/Paolo/Black).
  • Rob Mahoney: “With their top four, they're committed to $155 million... Black on his own right is probably due for a hefty pay raise.” [40:23]

• Giannis Trade Hypothetical:

  • Wild scenario: Would you trade Paolo Banchero for Giannis if contracts allowed? The hosts have fun with the thought exercise but acknowledge fit and floor spacing remain issues.

Keyonte George (Utah Jazz)

• Surging Sophomore:

  • Last 15 games: 27/7/5 on great shooting and 8 FTs per game; “Tyrese Maxey numbers.”
  • Rob Mahoney: “Keonte George... 27.7 and 5 on really good shooting percentages and almost 8 free throws a game.” [45:13]

• Improved Shot Selection and Consistency:

  • Credit to George’s sports psychology work—he’s now “more dialed in than ever.”
  • Rob Mahoney: “He made a concerted effort to work on his mental health... if you're looking at the change between last year to this year, it does feel like he's more dialed in than ever before.” [47:47]

• Attack Mentality and Craft:

  • Routinely gets to the rim (“less chaos, more discernment”), attacks midrange like Brunson/Fox, and leverages creative off-ball play in Hardy’s offense.
  • Justin Verrier: “It's about focus. Right. It's about like how do you zero out distractions, how do you move on from one play to the next... consistently good decisions... that's just telling me his focus has greatly improved.” [49:47]

Donovan Clingan (Portland Trail Blazers)

• Emergence as a Starting-Caliber NBA Big:

  • At nearly 7’3”, 7’6.75” wingspan, Clingan has become an elite offensive rebounder and shot-blocker in heavy minutes.
  • Rob Mahoney: “He’s playing 30 minutes a game since this over the past 12 games... if not the best offensive rebounder in the league, he's definitely in like the elite upper crust.” [54:02]

• Developing Stretch Game:

  • Hitting 53% of his threes over last 12 games (“one Mississippi” shooting cadence), showing new dimensions.
  • Justin Verrier: “Well, he's fucking panning these shots. Like they are not like, oh, rim in. Oh, it looks kind of ugly. Like he's just drilling threes.” [55:35]

• Pedigree, Swagger, and the Next Step:

  • Clingan shows “swagger” and edge reminiscent of his UConn days.
  • Rob Mahoney: “This is a guy at UConn that played with legitimate swagger. Like he had like the terror squad like chain going.” [62:05]

• Role and Fit:

  • The hosts discuss whether Clingan and recently drafted Young can coexist as Portland’s big men of the future.

• Notable Moment:

  • J. Kyle Mann (on Clingan): “He looks like an int if we’re being honest... but he definitely has some of that MF in him.” [63:48]

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4. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Hornets' offensive potential:

  • Justin Verrier: “The formula is a lot like Boston's formula, which is all those guys handling the ball, shoot a fuck ton of threes and clean up as many misses as you possibly can on the offensive glass." [19:59]

• On young guards and NBA evolution:

  • Rob Mahoney: "You don't need to be the walk-it-up floor general to be a point guard anymore. You can be Amen Thompson and be kind of a different sort of problem solver." [36:52]

• On player growth focus:

  • Justin Verrier: “That's kind of what I want for a lot of these guys who, yeah, may not ever be multi time all stars in their own right, but can they be all stars for six seconds?" [12:08]

• On Anthony Black's shooting improvement:

  • J. Kyle Mann: “I think what's happening is when he's catching the ball, I think you're just removing that moment of where there can be, like, mechanical disruption... he flows right into it.” [39:28]

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5. Structure & Timestamps For Key Segments

• Trae Young & Wizards: [04:00–16:00]
• Hornets Big Three Analysis: [16:00–30:00]
• Late Leapers Deep Dive:
  • Anthony Black (Magic): [32:17–43:00]
  • Keyonte George (Jazz): [44:45–52:00]
  • Donovan Clingan (Blazers): [52:24–66:25]

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6. Closing Banter and Personality

A staple of the pod: the banter is both smart and playful, loaded with NBA “sicko” details and self-aware metaphors. Discussions branch from on-court mechanics to draft fits to personality quirks. The trio’s familiarity—and gentle ribbing—bring an extra layer for fans.

• Justin Verrier on the hosts’ competitiveness: “I want to do all that stuff and I want to fucking win. And it drives me insane when other people don't care, like if it's. If it's a winner. Stay on situation. What are we doing here?” [66:01]
• J. Kyle Mann: “I have mellowed out a little bit, but I'm a pretty intense competitor. You wouldn't think so. I get that from people sometimes, but I actually kind of. I have to tone it down.”

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Final Thoughts

This Group Chat episode is a quintessential deep cut for NBA nerds: a sharp, witty, and highly technical roundtable about league-wide developmental trends, rebuilding philosophies, and the evolution of basketball archetypes. The hosts’ unapologetic, often contrarian takes on player growth and team building are enriched by their chemistry and years of shared basketball watching.

Whether you care about the Wizards’ existential questions, the Hornets’ shifty shooters, or the rise of bendy, “not-a-point-guard” creators, this episode distills the pivot points shaping the next NBA era.

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For the full episode (including video), catch The Ringer NBA Show on Spotify or, moving forward, on Netflix.

Transcript

[Justin Varier]

Foreign.

[Rob Mahoney]

Welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varier and joining me in crystal clear 4K HD. Whatever. Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle. Man, it's a new era, brothers. Welcome to the future.

[Justin Varier]

How does that make you feel, Justin? I feel like you are maybe the most resistant to the future of anyone I know.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know how to take that, nor do I necessarily think that's true. I got all sorts of tech. I got iPhones, I got ipods, I got earpods, I got all the pods.

[Justin Varier]

You sound like a grandpa even as.

[J. Kyle]

You'Re saying JV sounding like the Jeb Bush thing where he lists off all the Apple products that he has. But yeah, Justin, I could watch just a breakout bit of content of you. A adjusting your camera, dealing with all. Just listening to you work through your tech balance in your life is pretty entertaining for me. I think people would dig it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, we had about what like a 20 minute delay for this podcast. Just trying to get a camera steady enough to see Justin.

[J. Kyle]

We just see him going like this back and forth that I was like almost in tears.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, I had a great time.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. But now here I am in this very dark, moody lighting. So it's a new era because this is I think the last pod that's going to go up on YouTube. We are transitioning officially on video to Netflix with Sunday's episode. You still get everything on Spotify as per usual, audio and video. But if you just want the. The video product, go watch Stranger Things and then watch some strange guys talk about some things.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah. How many times do we have to mention Stranger Things on this pod to pop up as a recommended video after people are done watching it? Because I think, I think we should.

[Rob Mahoney]

Try to game it a little like Hawkins Breakdown. They had some basketball clips in there, right?

[Justin Varier]

Did they?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[J. Kyle]

Dustin in season, I think two or three. I forget there's some basketball going on. Caleb.

[Rob Mahoney]

Caleb was putting it up. He was on the team. You're so behind.

[Justin Varier]

I'm okay with that.

[J. Kyle]

And the guy who got killed at the mall. I'm trying to. There was some basketball. A lot of great Billy. Solid ball pressure guy. I thought he was believable. Steve, I don't know. Steve seems like a wispy tuxedo scorer to me. But Rob doesn't even know what we're talking about. But the stranger, the stranger heads out there. They know. They know.

[Justin Varier]

I mean Billy definitely had the haircut of a guy who would be really like a really annoying mid major player who became a cult hero. So I guess that's where some steel.

[J. Kyle]

Percentage through the roof though.

[Justin Varier]

Absolutely.

[J. Kyle]

He'd be a. He would definitely be a presti radar guy, I think. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Less of a help defender, more of a point of attack guy. I could see it.

[J. Kyle]

Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

For sure. For sure.

[J. Kyle]

All right.

[Justin Varier]

This episode is brought to you by Happy Egg.

[Rob Mahoney]

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[J. Kyle]

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[Justin Varier]

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[J. Kyle]

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[Rob Mahoney]

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Without Internet, you wouldn't be able to hear my beautiful voice right now and.

[Justin Varier]

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[Rob Mahoney]

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[Justin Varier]

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[Rob Mahoney]

Services not available in all areas. All right, on today's docket, we're going to get to some guys who are taking some leaps. But these aren't just the normal leaps. These aren't just the bounds. These aren't just the jumps. These are the late leapers. These are guys who have been popping over the past month or so, month plus of basketball. There's been some guys who have caught our eyes. We'll get to that, to the back end of the pod. We're also going to talk about the mighty Charlotte Hornets. You're goddamn right. But first and foremost, we have to talk about Trey Young because he's the guy in the rumor mill right now. On the last pod, I believe we ended it basically saying, I don't know who wants Trey Young? Is there actually a place for him to go? Turns out the market kind of agrees, Rob, because the only team that seems to have its hand up right now is the Washington Wizards.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, a team we kind of yada yada our way past last time. And to be fair, it's not who wants Trey Young, it's who needs Trey Young. And I think even the Wizards are in the category of the team that doesn't exactly need Trey Young. But they're positioned because of CJ McCollum's contract to just kind of throw up their hands and say, why not? Why not take back Trey, keep this thing going, sub in a similar version of the same player if it can get us something in return. I get that from a certain perspective. I don't get it from the perspective of wanting to develop almost anyone else on that roster outside of Alex Saar. Like, I think there could be a big, small chemistry between Trey. We've seen with many bigs he's played with throughout his career. It's just tough if you're invested in the development of any of these other young wings or creators that Washington has to bring in someone like Trey, who just kind of, by definition in the way he plays, is going to dominate the ball and control a lot.

[J. Kyle]

I'm of two minds about it because, you know, I spent some time watching Trey Johnson because he's been surging lately and I don't know if we'll get to him or not. But I, I was just kind of watching the Wizards, and there is the side of it where you're like, okay, if you're, if you're wanting to get these guys into comfortable stasis, a guy like Trey Young is going to allow them a Keyshawn George, a Trey Johnson above Carrington to sort of like shift back into their natural, comfortable roles.

[Justin Varier]

But Rob, comfortable stasis, is that what we're striving for?

[J. Kyle]

No, we're not. I mean, I think if you're looking for the constraint thing that causes growth, that's so popular, the constraint led approach that's so popular in basketball right now, you want to kind of stress some of these guys to grow. And also it serves the dual agenda of the thing that I'm kind of wondering about with the Wizards is, you know, they're not quite in the top three lottery odds in the 14%. They're in the 12 and a half percent where it takes a step down. That could be the difference between the Wizards. If anybody have learned here where they've gotten leapfrog by some of these established teams in the lottery, it's like maybe they've gone the other way where they're just like, this is chaos. And they're just being like draft nihilists, where they're like, nothing we do matters what the pick we get is the pick we get. We're not going to aim for that 14% thing. But you would think that adding a Trey Young, is it going to help you be worse do you think that. What do you think? Where do you think the Wizards go in? Do they get better or worse? That's kind of the question I'm asking in terms of what's going to cause them to get a high pick or what pick they get.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I think you guys are looking at it from the two perspectives. I am. Whereas, like, there's the more cynical, like, nuts and bolts front office way of looking at this, where it's just like, they might just be trying to roll over an expiring contract. Young has this year and the next year as a player option. Presumably, he's going to opt in unless one of these teams convince him to sign an extension. Perhaps that brings down his salary my year, so he just gets more years, fewer dollars. But you could also make the case that if he doesn't make them better, he also just is there to just be there. Right. He's just a version of what Chris Middleton is, where he's just playing certain minutes. You probably diminish him at a certain point in the season, and then you move on from him as soon as you can. The other side of this is, does he actually help some of these young guys? Rob, you're making the case that he doesn't. I think, like, last year was probably the best example of what they could be shooting for, where, if he's willing to play nice, at the very least, he's has some experience activating, like, a deep bench of wing players. So the Hawks did okay in that mode last year. Do you think there's any, like, belief there where, at the very least, if Trey's bought in, he could do that?

[Justin Varier]

I think he absolutely can do that. And I think this speaks to the kind of comfortable stasis that Kyle mentioned, where, if your goal is to turn Bilal Koulibaly into the best version of a role player he can be, putting him alongside Trey is good and will help streamline that stuff. And he'll organize the offense and he'll maybe even someone like Bilal. His percentages will tick up because the shots are easier, because they're more comfortable, because they're coming within the flow of, like, a really coherent offense, which is something that Trey can give you. But if you want Ball Koulibaly to be someone who's ever knocking on the door of stardom, I think playing with Trey is not the path you want. And that's kind of what confuses me about the Wizards and where they are now is there are a lot of guys here who have potential to Be something and we don't know what it is yet. I'm not going to put a ceiling on Bub Carrington. I'm not going to put a ceiling on Keshan or Bilal or anybody here right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

You sure you don't want to put a ceiling on Bub?

[Justin Varier]

He kind of puts his own ceiling on himself sometimes, but I want him to do that on his own terms and I want the exploratory face. And I think that that's really my only objection to Trey Young, who I still really like. I think the way we talk about him can be kind of disrespectful at times, given the talent involved in the creation that he brings to the table. But he's just not a good fit for a developmental team, like, unless he was developing as he was with the Young Hawks and they were all coming up together. But you put him on a team like this and he just eats up so much of the oxygen in the room.

[J. Kyle]

I think it's, it's a little too severe to say that we're being like flat out disrespectful because I think you can acknowledge it's the trade offs with him. It's always been the trade offs because it's like he, he does such. And it's, it's amazing that he can be literally one of the worst defensive players in the league in the last five years and, and so incredible offensively. And then you have the role rigidity. But I was thinking about it. It's almost like the Wizards probably would be best suited, based on what you're saying, to handle this. Like, like it's, it's sort of the daycare versus the Montessori thing. Whereas I think we, we need the Wizards to be more of a Montessori where we teach these guys to be self sufficient a little bit. Whereas what, what they're doing right now is we're going to have Trey Young maybe even literally chew Bilal Koulibaly's food for him in a way. Like I, I think them and stress them, but so a, you know, child care, basketball comps. I could feel you guys really light up when I was saying that. It's, it's kind of the parent brain that's taking over my life. I was looking at this though, that Washington's in an interesting situation in that they're a pretty decent catch and shoot team. They're 97th percentile in the league on, on uncontested looks, but they just don't get them. They're only like 37th percentile in the league on creating them. Bringing in a Trey Young is hypothetically going to increase those, but it doesn't quell, you know, dismiss any of those concerns that we brought up.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's why I'm wondering if you bring in an organizer at the very least. These guys are just being reared in with a little bit more of a guard in place. They have the bumpers on at the bowling alley pretty much. Because I look at the roster and like, perhaps you don't want to artificially constrain some of these guys. You want them to play through mistakes. At the other hand, like, I could see where a lot of these guys ultimately end up and maybe not high level role players, but like whatever the the in between is of star and role players, I guess it's just like rotation guys like Sar, Trey Johnson, Kula Bali, like Ian Kishan George, like these guys all feel like they will be very helpful starters on teams. But I'm not seeing like where the star talent is going to be suppressed by Trey having the ball in his hands. And I also think we need to factor in just like the pure, like, craven business side of this where anybody who has spent time in D.C. within the past decade, decade, we'll tell you that nobody goes to that arena. It is a mausoleum and it is one of the worst home crowds in the league. I do have to wonder at a certain point, especially considering we forget, like, this is not just a tank. This is a double tank or a triple tank, considering the Bradley Beals years ended up being that same kind of approach. I was doing the math here. They've had top 15 picks the past eight years. Like, so it's not just this recent stretch where they've decided to go Mike Winger and like, really tear it to the studs. Like, there is a lot of history here too. I wonder, at a certain point, despite what they're saying, are people starting to get itchy fingers wanting at the very least, like a semblance of competitive basketball out there?

[Justin Varier]

There are always itchy fingers. There's always somebody who's like, but what if we, what if we pushed in? What if we accelerated? What if we consolidate what we have? I think that's a natural instinct, especially given the rare triple tank scenario. You laid out jv like, this is a long time to be waiting for a team to coalesce. And the best version of the Wizards that we've seen anywhere near recently were just like, add Russell Westbrook and hope it works. You know, like that that was the best case scenario for Washington basketball over the last decade. Basically, my concern is less almost like, do you stifle star power? And more, do you stifle the sort of like overqualified contributions of winning players? Like for better or worse? I think a lot about Andrew Wiggins and I think a lot about who he was to the Golden State warriors. And like, can you get to that point without the force feeding opportunity he got in Minnesota, basically, so that when he did go to a winning situation, yeah, he had to learn new habits, he had to find his role. But when it really came down to it and you needed a player to create something with six seconds left on the shot clock, he could be a star for six seconds. And like, that's kind of what I want for a lot of these guys who, yeah, may not ever be multi time all stars in their own right, but can they be all stars for six seconds? Can they have those stretches where they, they really find their groove as some of the most overqualified contributors in the sport? I think a lot of these guys have that potential in them and I, I do wonder how much Trey could stifle it.

[J. Kyle]

It's the, it's the pushing the muscle to failure thing that we've talked about with like that. The spurs were doing that, but before the wimby, you know, when they, those just those teams that were, that were pretty rough when they were playing guys out of position. And I, Yeah, I guess it kind of, it kind of poses the question like, are you eating into that? Do you lose something if you, if you, you know, you're not pumping to the, to the, to the full extent of the, of the. Yeah, just got to be a star for six seconds, right, Rob? That's it.

[Justin Varier]

Well, look, you're used to that. Okay. JV is pushing past the limit. We respect this about you. I just think, look, we're having this huge conversation about Trey and what he does to these young players. There was already a conversation about this stuff with CJ McCollum and these young players just because CJ is.

[Rob Mahoney]

I missed that one.

[Justin Varier]

This is absolutely like I'm, I'm locked in on the Wizards.

[J. Kyle]

So we trade for a shorter version who also can't guard anybody. It is interesting on that front. Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

And I would say CJ's, if anything a slightly more flexible player in terms of his role. And yet he was taking a lot of shots for this team. He was playing like a prominent on. Had a lot of prominent on ball responsibility for this team. That's Only going to go up with Trey. And so if you're willing to make that bargain. Yeah, the talent, of course, justifies it. If you're a little more skittish like I am, I guess whatever other players or picks you get back in a deal like that better be worth it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. I do wonder if there's also some house cleaning that could happen in this trade too. Like, there is a bunch of, dare I say, riff raff on this roster that is kind of like either worked its way out of the rotation, came with more first and foremost, but also just like guys on top of guys. So I almost wonder if you need to chisel out some of the more late first round picks and give time to like a Will Riley type. And can you pick up, for instance, Risha Shay in that whole thing? Like, what is the benefit in addition to Trey? That's like the one piece of this that we really haven't sorted out here. So. Still a lot to figure out. I have to say. I'm still, like, kind of baffled that this is Trae Young's trade value. I know. We did it all out and I guess, like, we shouldn't be surprised. Do you guys know how old Trey Young is?

[Justin Varier]

28.

[J. Kyle]

7.

[Rob Mahoney]

28, 27.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

When someone asked me the other day at the arena, I was just off the top of my head, I guess, 31. Just because there's just been so much.

[J. Kyle]

Like, Jesus, I do.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it's been dramatic from the jump. He got traded for Luca and then he goes to the Eastern Conference finals, like, way earlier than that, but. And then all the tension starts from there. It's been like four to five years of that. And so.

[Justin Varier]

Well, plus a very dramatic Caroline situation. You know, it can be deceptive.

[J. Kyle]

Oh, boy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why is it deceptive? Gotta ask the right people about that one. All right, now flipping to another bad Southeastern team, but with perhaps a brighter future. Yeah, Rob was offended by that one.

[J. Kyle]

How dare you. Siri, let me just stop you right there. Stop sign.

[Rob Mahoney]

Coming off the biggest win in five years in Charlotte Hornets basketball over the Oklahoma City Thunder.

[Justin Varier]

Maybe the biggest win in Neo Hornets history. You know, since the full on reboot. Have they had a more important win than this?

[Rob Mahoney]

So when does that mark, like, post Kemba Walker, basically. Are we including the Gordon Hayward years where they were just like, languishing with Nikola Batum?

[J. Kyle]

Oh, God, yeah.

[Justin Varier]

You never languishing with Batum. Yeah, I mean, honestly, that. That might be kind of the standard set there, which is dark in its.

[Rob Mahoney]

Own way, but the Hornets, they get a win. They have been pretty good. Rob sent us the tweet, I believe from Trey Kirby that suggests when Lamelo, Brandon Miller and Con Cannip will all play together. They're nine and six this season. So I guess the question is how much should we read into this at this point? Because I think emotionally we want this to be something, but is it actually something?

[Justin Varier]

I think it's definitely something. Kyle, are you on board with this?

[J. Kyle]

Why are you throwing at me so quickly? Are you worried about what I think? Go ahead, say your piece, Rob.

[Justin Varier]

I'm looking to consensus built. You know, I'm trying to get this thing out of committee.

[J. Kyle]

All right.

[Justin Varier]

We're trying to make the Hornets legit.

[J. Kyle]

What do you think? I was. Okay, Rob, you can speak. You're free to speak.

[Justin Varier]

I think it's real. Look, rocket science, having better players on the floor helps, especially when the depth on your team is like a little shaky or a little bit suspect. And I think within those nine wins, not only do you have the win against okc, which is the worst Thunder loss of the season, like, by margin, they beat Toronto twice. They've beat a bunch of the East. Play in teams like those are meaningful games for a team like the Hornets in terms of like, moving up the standings and where they're ultimately trying to go. I think this latest stretch with these guys healthy has sort of crystallized for me. I mean, one, they were already a good offensive team to begin with. This just makes them a better one. It doesn't change who they are. It just elevates what they already did so well. And in particular, it makes it really hard for defenses to guard the entire floor when in one corner you have con caniple driving a pick and roll. In the other corner you have Brandon Miller, who defenses don't want to leave, or vice versa. And the way that kind of stretches teams out, it forces them to make tough decisions. It really puts kind of a strain on the rotation in a way that feels very real and very sustainable to me.

[J. Kyle]

That was the highest ball screen total for the Hornets of the season. That. That game and their. Their points for possession on it was. I know we rattle off some people don't give. Give a shit about points for possession. I know we could just throw that and be like, yes, twiddle. 1.127 is really high for. For a g. For a team to do 54 in a game, like, that's a lot. And. But the thing that's interesting about it, when you watched it, you alluded to it is that when you have. The thing that Miller, Knipple and. And and Lamello have in common is that they have live dribble skill sets. They can both. They can all three pass on the move. They're all very three. All three of them are very dynamic shooters who could shoot it and get it up in a lot of different ways. And they're. They're good decision makers and they're all tall. That's the interesting thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

So.

[J. Kyle]

And when they're screening for each other and you throw miles in there too, it really causes a lot of problems. Granted, okc, you know, was missing iheart and they were missing Caruso in this game, but also, you can't praise OKC's depth and then turn around. It's like they beat a team that had a lot of good pieces on it. And Kaufbruner didn't play for the Hornets. It was just interesting offensively to watch them. There were a lot of like befuddled faces from Dagnaut in this game that were like amusing me. I wrote down that OKC hit a buzz saw. Is that. Are we accepting or are we rejecting that?

[Justin Varier]

I'll allow it.

[J. Kyle]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not bad.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah.

[J. Kyle]

Offensively, an interesting group of players. Perimeter players, though. Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

I think especially the reason that all this feels real and feels like an actual thing we should be monitoring is the reason that offense is good. I think you laid out like the. The multiple ball handlers. Kyle, you're absolutely right. The formula is a lot like Boston's formula, which is all those guys handling the ball, shoot a fuck ton of threes and clean up as many misses as you possibly can on the offensive glass. And this NBA season has told us that works pretty well with the way the game is played right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. Even without all those guys on the court, the Hornets take a lot of threes and they actually make a lot of threes this year. And those three guys in total are probably three of the better shot makers from three in the league just because they just have so much now. At times they float and take too many of them. And I think developmental wise, I think it might be a little bit of a sticking point for some of them. But I have liked what I've seen from Miller of late in particular because he's the guy that kind of gets lost in the shuffle. I mentioned this as we did our young core rankings, but it kind of feels like you forgot about Brandon Miller. Is the general consensus because of the injury, like just two, three years ago, this was a Guy who in any normal year without Wemby would have been the rookie of the year and seemed destined for regular All Star appearances, appearances as soon as last season. He's come back from this most recent injury and seems to be playing with a little bit more of an edge. Partly, I think, because he's just coasting off the vibes of nearly ending Kyle Kuzma's life to the point where, like, I was wondering like what Kyle Kuzma had to say to not only his teammates but also his loved ones after that, where Bren Miller basically just took his soul. But he just seems like he's like kind of a. In like a badass state where he wants to prove something. And that chip on the shoulder is nice to see because of anyone. He's the one that's the big question mark because I kind of feel like we've settled into this weird state with, with Lamelo where we accept the good and also accept the bad. Khan is kind of taking off, but Miller is this curio where it's like he could be whatever the fuck he wants. It's great to see him embrace that.

[Justin Varier]

Yes, I, I still have such high hopes for Brandon Miller and, and yeah, seeing him kind of inch his way back after coming back from injury, slowly kind of find his form again. He still presents to me as like the best two way prospect among the three of them. Like someone who can really be a difference maker with his length on defense, who can really like be the sort of creator on ball in those spotty moments that even you see Khan struggle with at times. For as wonderful as he's been this season, he feels like the get out of jail free card for this offense and Khan feels like the flow initiation element and Lamelo is just sort of like the chaotic elevator of the group. And so between the three of them and the different things that they're all bringing to the table, like that is a cohesive offense in a way. It's a little weird and a little unconventional and they play, I would say overall much slower than you would expect a team with that much young talent to play, but they just kind of make it work when they're all out there together now, you remove one of those legs of the stool and things can get pretty ugly pretty quickly. But I like who they are offensively and I like the way those three present together.

[J. Kyle]

Are they like, what. I think we could probably all agree that they're a legitimate big away from this, like really flowing into something that's substantial. I mean, would we Say that. That's right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, you say that, but they had the Mahler twins coming off the bench the other night where you had Tidian Saloon, whatever we're calling him now.

[J. Kyle]

Who.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just looks like a WWE wrestler. And then you had fake Eduardo Nahara coming in next to him.

[Justin Varier]

Who is fake Eduardo Nahara?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's P.J.

[Justin Varier]

Hall. Oh, sure. P.J.

[J. Kyle]

Hall. He's actually.

[Justin Varier]

You know what? That's actually not a bad comp.

[J. Kyle]

Let's go. I think we're done here.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't expect the defense to really carry, but it was nuts watching them kind of like switch things or at least hold the tide so their offense could take over on defense in that first half.

[J. Kyle]

Hall's a good athlete. He's. People who haven't seen him. I mean, there's the curly headed white guy thing, but he really is a pretty bouncy, strong, like NBA. He's an NBA. Athleticism wise. He's an NBA big. Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

Yes. I every, every fiber of my being in terms of what I think I understand about basketball agrees with you, Kyle. They're like, if they get a certain kind of big in there and plug them in, this will be a more successful team. But certainly would be the case for their defense where they need a lot of help. But what those three guys are doing on the offensive glass and I think where the NBA is overall in terms of this kind of trend setting, there are just different kinds of bigs who can be successful right now. And so there are times where Moussa Diabate is just like a game changing player, even though he is a little wild, even though his offense can be a little limited, even though he's not the big, like the biggest true big in the world. But he'll change games with his energy and his rebounding. And maybe that is enough to a point at least to get your. Your offense to a certain point where it leaves the balance of the Hornets, I think is where the debate lies. And do they need the sort of true rim protector beyond the like hyper conservative Brenner types who are going to just like hang back in plays and, and guard the pain in a. In a very traditional but ultimately limited sense?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think my big question is how much is Lamelo willing to just kind of back off because he's kind of fallen, I guess ironically here into a bit of a Trey Young situation where you just want him not to disrupt like so much that it becomes a nuisance. Like he had some just bizarre turnovers. Like any turnover he makes is just the weirdest turnover you've ever seen where it's like a contorting jump in the air, like throw it behind his back and it's just like, why just. Just pass it to the guy next to you and let's move this along. And I do wonder if he does that. He just kind of depresses that and is being more of an organizer, is being someone who's just like playing within the system. Like, can he do that? Because then this team makes a little bit more sense if he can't. I do think this might just be a little bit of flash in a pan.

[Justin Varier]

Everything you're saying though, like everything you just laid out about Lamella and what we would want him to be in his ideal role also strikes me as the ultimate praise for Khan canipple and how quickly he's just become a steady hand for an offense. I'm in awe every time I watch the Hornets play about the reads he makes about the calm in the pick and roll game. Like he's. He's not just like a great shooter, he's a great all around offensive creator and someone who in the half court is honestly Charlotte's best option on a lot of these possessions. Which is a crazy thing to think this early in his career. But it does give Lamelo in a way a little more leash to be chaotic within a certain parameter. Right. If he's off to kind of doing this in a supplementary, in a facilitating role, everyone can be cool with that because there's enough kind of stable organizing possessions where those sort of wild card elements make sense. If it's all a mellow all the time, we've kind of seen what that is for the Hornets and it. It ultimately is like a little too volatile to hang anything on.

[J. Kyle]

I think that what you were saying when we were talking about Jaw versus Trey versus Lamelo the other day and sort of like weighing out those three, you know, just at this point, distressed ideas of players at this point. I think the thing that aside from size, I think the thing that is Trey or that Lamelo has working for him is the fact that he is capable of not being that helio type in a way that I don't think jar Trey necessarily are a. Because he's able to get his shot, he can shoot and he can get his shot off quickly. And really that's another thing about these three guys is all three of them are like one motion shooters. Like it's fast in addition to being dynamic. But Lamelo can get on and off the ball if he's granted they haven't had structure in place. He's been asked to do so much more that we haven't seen as much of this from him. But he is capable of having the offense move through him as opposed to directly coming from him at all times, which I think is a pretty big distinction for someone of his skill set to be able to do that. So that'll only serve the Hornets if they end up keeping him long term.

[Rob Mahoney]

So if we're looking ahead to the draft here, do you think like they need to start targeting Biggs? Like let's, let's assume that Lamelo is still here at the time that they're drafting. Are you at the point where it's like you kind of can't cram too many of these ball handling wing types on top of each other. Do we need to target like a big or what do you think Kyle? Is there like a guy that they should be thinking about?

[J. Kyle]

I don't think that they should be targeting. I'm just going to say some names that people can go google if they want. Cause I know people just don't want, don't have the time for the draft until it's later. So I mean if you start thinking about like the Kingston Flemings who's been, who's climbing right now, Braylon Mullins, the Yukon guy, like these, these dynamic dribble pass shoot guys, Bennett Sturts, I don't think he'll climb up that high. Or Mikel Brown for Louisville. I, I think that they, if they could end up with a big powerful, athletic defensive minded dunks a lot of stuff like a Caleb Wilson from North Carolina, that kind of guy could help them a whole lot. I've said over and over again, I mean I'd like to see them get Cam Boozer from Duke who is more fulcrumy, is, is positionally really smart and is a fantastic passer. That's a couple of names there that that would be interesting for them. But I don't know like those are two. If they get the opportunity to add one of these top, top talents I think you do it. But past that, I mean there's another guy's co op for Arizona is another guy who's interesting. That could work. Or Yaxel Lindaborg. I know that sounds like a name I just made up from Michigan defensively, really, really solid, can pass, can shoot. They have a few options but I do think that they should. I kind of think for now they're out of the like dribble pass shoot skill guys unless they get an opportunity to get a superstar.

[Justin Varier]

But the hub big is kind of interesting to me and I think one of the reasons it's interesting is that Khan is already such a good screener off ball. Like he seems to have like a really implicit understanding of if I can shoot this well and I do literally anything in terms of setting a screen, it's going to freak some people out. If you have a really good playmaking big who's able to kind of like actually orchestrate the action a little bit. And you have Brandon Miller and Khan screening for each other as they often do as they're like involved in the same actions, like that feels like something that could really work and you could, you could really build some action around.

[J. Kyle]

A big and attack single coverage. If you mixed it with what we've been talking about, them screening for each other offensively, you have something very, very interesting. I think like that's, that's what they should be going after.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just in my opinion, gonna need some lottery luck because unfortunately they're just too good. They're this like next crew of teams that's too good to be terrible with with Utah and probably Brooklyn Washington, unfortunately after last night's win might be creeping up toward that. But the bad teams are very bad. The Pacers have six wins right now. They have decided that all they need is a draft pick and nothing else matters for them. So tanker is gonna nothing else matter. On that note, why don't we take a break? We'll come back, talk about some leapers. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. You know how wild it gets when an NBA player goes off for 50. Now that moment could literally make you money thanks to FanDuel's brand new 50 piece jackpot. So if you think you know which player is going to have a big night, just visit FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to take your shot at a share of the pot in bonus bets with the 50 piece jackpot. I like Luka Doncic to go for 50 points at some point in this season. He's already gone for 40 a couple times, including one at 49. And did you hear LeBron recently? Basically he's like, this is Luka's team. We're just kind of going around what he needs. How much does he believe that? I'm not sure, but at the very least, the fact that he's saying it is something. So give me luka to score 50 at some point this season. FanDuel, play your game 21 + in present in select states or 18 + in present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Must place eligible pre live wager on select markets. Prize pool to be split equally among all eligible participants who made the correct pick. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets which expire seven days after receipt. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInCenetic this message is.

[Justin Varier]

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[Rob Mahoney]

Prime's exclusive wild card.

[Justin Varier]

Playoff game is Saturday night.

[Rob Mahoney]

Jordan Love and the packers take on.

[Justin Varier]

Caleb Williams in the bench.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not a Prime member. Sign up for a 30 day free trial to stream the game. That's gonna be poor for the touchdown. NFC north rivals square off in the latest chapter of the NFL's oldest feud, the packers and Bears, in Prime's exclusive wild card playoff game Saturday at 7:30pm Eastern only on Prime. Sign up for a 30 day free trial today. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com amazonprime for details. All right, we're talking late leapers, all right? Not early leapers. Not the guys that you know have taken the leap. The A.J. mitchell types, the other Ryan Rollins, all those others. Stefan Castles. We're talking about the late leapas. And we have to start first and foremost with a guy that I think, Rob, you have been pining for this leap probably longer than anybody. And that is one Anthony Black. You put some money down last year and then kept doubling down and kept doubling down. Does it please you to finally see this guy, like develop into something you.

[Justin Varier]

Already know that it does? Yeah, you know, look, he's been the talk of the group chat, group chat. We're catching him at a kind of an inconvenient time given that the Magic had to bench all their starters into like a truly embarrassing loss to the Wizards, Anthony Black included. But we're just going to put that off to the side. I'm not going to let one bad night, you know, harsh my vibe. I am. I'm writing the Anthony Black Express. It turns out all he needed to do Was make like a ridiculous percentage of his threes and also become a much more aggressive offensive player. And everything could be right as rain. Everything in his game is sort of falling into place. I think this is the sort of season from him where he's always been good playing out of flow, right? Like if you give him a downhill to attack, he can attack it. Now he's kind of making his own flow and that's an important elevation for a lot of young players. And you can see it from him turning kind of like what could be a normal walk it up possession into a run into the transition offense. Possession basically as often as possible. And I love that for him. I certainly love it for the Magic who need all those occasions they can get. It's been awesome to watch just how assertive he's been getting all the way to the basket.

[J. Kyle]

I was going to say, you mentioned the shooting. I mean he's just been. You hate to simplify. I hate when it's just shooting with a player like him because you, you want the other things to sort of balance it so that you're not. If you have a, if you have a cold streak, it's, it's and it's not luckily for him, he's been shooting the ball like last 10 games. No bounce catch and shoot shots. 47.1% from three. That's icing. I think when you're talking about the, the movement when he gets into a flow, he's so sinewy and big and, and, and bendy and he's. He also just plays hard as hell all the time. That's the thing about it. He just has a nastiness to him. And when he gets into the basket. Something that I really noticed about him this year is that he's just driving to score a lot more. You start. You're just seeing him get to the rim and see that to. Whereas when it's that stagnant like my life is just dependent on what I can do when, when the ball comes to me in this slow moving offense and whether on that wastes a player that really, really is good with movement and momentum like him. And I think getting into early offense like, because I was looking at it was like they're not turning people over more than they did in years past and out because you see the transition numbers and you're like how is he? It's that he is. Like you said, he's just. He's not waiting for a beat to be played for him. He is just playing the beat himself and going and making it happen.

[Rob Mahoney]

What's interesting is that there feels like this little kind of crew of guys who are taking off here. The Amen Thompson types, the Stefan Castle types, who are point guards in name only, but they're like really just athletes. Like when in college football recruiting, when like a guy is too good of an athlete but basically was like a running quarterback, they just don't know where to put him. He can go anywhere, play cornerback, he can play all the skill positions, they just label him an athlete. I think of that with these guys because they're not really point guards because a lot of times they're catching on the move and just getting downhill and making things happen just by sheer athleticism, force and just doing things from there. And then we're seeing the nuance kind of being layered on top of there. But I'm curious if you guys agree because like we've seen mega athletes here, but a lot of them are starting first and foremost as ball handlers. Is there something about the way guys are being reared now where we're seeing these guys like just athletes being shoehorned into point guard roles to begin with and once they get to the NBA, they're just like in this kind of mixed zone or is there something maybe schematically that's allowing for these type of guys to pop in this sort of way?

[Justin Varier]

I think the last 10 to 15 years of basketball have really opened up the possibility of who plays where. And in a different, in a different life at a different time, Anthony Black might have been slotted in more directly as like, you are a wing player, this is what you do. But at different developmental levels, he's been given the ball, he's been given some opportunity to run with it. Even here with the magic, you know, they've played him at backup point a bunch. And here with Jalen Suggs out, has had plenty of opportunity to run point. And so there's just a little bit of more open mindedness with those guys. And in terms of like what a point guard needs to do, you know, you don't need to be the walk it up floor general to be a point guard anymore. You can be Ahmed Thompson and be kind of a different sort of problem solver on every possession. I think that's really exciting for basketball and for the league. It's also certainly exciting for Anthony Black, who doesn't have those orchestrating instincts per se. And you can even see it like the lineups with him and Paolo Van Caro and Desmond Bain, they don't all Work, but when they work, they really, really click. And I also want to get your opinion on. They're calling that the killer bees. How do we feel about the. The Bankaro Bane Black trio in Orlando?

[Rob Mahoney]

Too easy. Too many killer bees. That's like a, that's a grade school pun. You want the high level version of that.

[Justin Varier]

You're saying get your numbers up, step.

[Rob Mahoney]

It up like the big ballers because we're bbb. You know, like that would be a little bit better, but it's still not good. We'll work on it.

[Justin Varier]

We can work on it and there will be time. I think the best versions of those lineups still have when Jalen Suggs is healthy, him on the floor. That's. That works really well. And even failing that, Tyus Jones playing with those guys has been pretty good. Like let Anthony Black be a weird hybrid guard who is mostly slashing and attacking. That seems to be unlocking the best parts of his offensive game.

[J. Kyle]

I think speaking to the like what, what is available to, to players like him, like Amen. Like Stefan Castle. It's like at lower levels you see this archetype of player who's sor. Of the big bully on campus, like getting to the rim and you kind of see them like I think of a, you know, Isaiah Collier, granted, you know, he hasn't had or Emmanuel Moody players like that who are just big bullies who get to get to the basket. And I think what separates a Black an Amen or a Castle is that they have that sinewy, wiggly speed is a big thing that also they, they can balance it with the, with their defensive act impact on the other side. I think what happens is as they level up those guys who are bullies, they get to the basket and then they maybe don't they maybe have more of a below the rim kind of thing that doesn't translate in the same way that the speed separates like those guys that we're talking about that are. That are able to break through and do well.

[Justin Varier]

Another.

[J. Kyle]

I wanted to point out another thing about the shooting that's interesting that I've noticed because I was just kind of watching a lot of his shots to see what was different. I think I mentioned earlier in the year there was a game that we were watching where he caught the ball and thought very clearly thought for a second and didn't shoot it. That is like not present for him right now. And I, I think what's happening is when he's catching the ball, I think you're just removing that moment of where there can be, like, mechanical disruption, he's just like, I caught it. I'm shooting it. He, like, flows right into it. Granted, it's not as fast as the Hornet boys that we were talking about. The actual Killer Bees, the Killer Hornets, whatever he. He is. He's just removed some of that indecision, I think, and it's been helping him streamline the way he shoots the ball.

[Justin Varier]

I mean, he made seven threes against the Nuggets a few weeks ago. He barely even took seven threes in any game last season. Just that. That level of remove of getting into that faster and just committing to doing it. It's important for every shooter, but certainly someone like him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, it's been really crafty at the basket, too, like, using that speed to his advantage to, like, get Connor moves going where he has that, like, heavy step and it gets the defense going and goes a different way. So he's. Yeah, he's like, kind of developing just on the fly. It's almost like something CL clicked and all of a sudden he's taken off. Unfortunately, the Magic haven't taken off along with them. They are 6 and 7 since he entered the starting lineup. Obviously they've had a ton of injuries. Suggs is back out yet again. That's the first problem. The second problem is he is extension eligible this summer, and the Magic have a shit ton of money on their books. So just next year with their top four, they're committed to $155 million. And so we had talked about, like, oh, this doesn't work. Like, can they keep Suggs? Can they keep he Franz? Will they break up the big four? That problem still very much exists. And now you've added this fact that Black on his own right is probably due for a hefty pay raise. I guess it's a good problem ultimately to have, but I think this is good. Like, this is real rubber meets the road territory. I think even sooner than we expected.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah. And it might feel different if Anthony Black were ascending in a way that made Jalen Suggs, who has just been such, like an injury wild card to this point in his career. If you made Suggs feel more expendable and a trade, that's one thing. It doesn't feel that way. Like, all these games where Suggs is out, you really see his absence in the lineup. You see the negative space of everything that he brings to the table. And so then there will be a hard decision between those two guards at some point. It just won't be the kind that is facilitated by Black kind of nudging his way into things. He's just been so good that maybe it makes him a more appealing trade candidate, maybe it makes him an easier extension candidate. It is a good problem to have jv, you're right about that, but it's. It's not without its complications.

[J. Kyle]

Are we positive that the choice is going to be the guys at the same position or is it going to be between him and. I mean, is that where the choice will be?

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the question. Yeah. No, I think. I think you have to start looking at probably the two bigger wings a little bit harder. I mean, have we talked about Giannis for Paulo as an idea? I feel like it's floating in the ether. It can't really happen this year. It's probably more of a off season thing, if only because of the contract. Apollo's extension doesn't kick in until this off season. Um, I don't know why you wouldn't do that for either side. To me, that's like the. The cleanest fit on the board. Now the money is actually worse because Giannis is one of the few players that's going to make more than Paulo. Sure to get someone out in addition to Paulo, but just for like a one for one swap. Like, who says no? I kind of think both teams turn the key there.

[Justin Varier]

They might. I don't know about cleanest fit on the board. That's where I mean everything that the magic present in terms of a problem for spacing does not feel like a perfect solution to Plug and Giannis or perfect for Giannis in terms of joining that kind of team.

[Rob Mahoney]

So if you thugs Black, Franz in a. In whoever's left.

[Justin Varier]

We are hoping that like 10 games of Anthony Black shooting is real. Like I'm holding on tight, but it could crash really hard. It looks real.

[Rob Mahoney]

I hope it is.

[J. Kyle]

This is the most macro meta basketball like Galaxy. This situation is so funny because the builds of these two teams have literal overlap in personnel and like, like and how they were built. It would be so hilarious if the team that was mimicking the team that won the title if they ended up trading them for each other. And I think what the interesting problem. I think what you're talking about here is putting Giannis like Giannis. Granted does the rim pressure thing better than anybody in the world at his position and he does it better than Paolo, but it's kind of just a different version of. And maybe you hope that his betterness would sort of alleviate some of the things that Paolo can't quite do, I think. I mean, you think Giannis is a better passer than Paolo in terms of, like, going downhill?

[Justin Varier]

I think so, yeah.

[J. Kyle]

I would say so, too, but. And he's better finishing, I would say. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

And also the better teammates around him, I think just, like, kind of ease him into his. His waning prime a little bit easier. He could miss games, and all of a sudden, this team would. Could be fine. This is.

[Justin Varier]

This is where I am with Giannis. He's so fucking good that almost any. Like, would you say no scenario to a Giannis trade? I'm like, I kind of would probably do it because I get it, and I love Giannis. I just think that it would still require a lot more shoring up around the edges and kind of finessing what this lineup and what this magic team would look like even if you bring him in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I think they're gonna have to do something dramatic, though. I think that's probably where they're at at this point. But we'll see another team kind of on our late leapers list who is waiting patiently, very patiently, to do something dramatic. It's Utah Jazz. Who? Keonte George, I feel like we've talked about in the past, but we've only probably done it in passing because he's kind of taken a double leap on top of the one that he started with since December 1st. So this is 15 games, basically 27. 7 and 5 on really good shooting percentages and almost 8 free throws a game. Like, so he's. He's doing practically everything. I saw him here in Portland the other night. It was a pretty sad performance from the Jazz. Their defense is just dreadful. But George is. Is definitely a. A player. Like, I think we talked about him more as a six man at times. Like, he seems like he's onto something special.

[Justin Varier]

Well, that's why he deserves more than a passing mention. Like, those are Tyrese Maxey numbers you just listed. And Keante George, he's. He's quickly elevating within the ranks of the guards in the league, and he's doing it most impressively to me by, like, he's. He's so good off the dribble. He has all of these other skills at his disposal. It's like, I don't. I don't really know what the Jazz are. I don't know where they're going. I don't know what the dramatic move will ultimately be. I certainly don't know what they are doing or have been doing with their defense. Basically for years now, like they just have not been able to get any sort of momentum in terms of their team building at all. But I'm glad Keonte George has been there and I'm glad he's been playing in a Will Hardy offense because he is not just like a pick and roll machine. He plays dribble handoff, he works off of cuts. Like he's used in so many creative capacities that he has become. If you also take into account how good of a catch and shoot player he is, the kind of really good guard who can play with other really great players. And that is exactly what the Jazz need. It's certainly what a lot of teams need. It just puts him in a different kind of trajectory.

[J. Kyle]

Have you guys noticed this is just more of a mechanical observation about the he. The way his arms wind up. Maybe this is a function of how long his arms are, but he like straightens his arms at like chest level and like almost like a trebuchet and then totally straightened, gets them up above his head and then it's really strange. Like his elbows aren't bent. It's, it's almost like Kate, the way KD shoots. It's an odd thing, but I was going to talk the big thing you mentioned, the, the getting to the rim and the free throws and the things like that. I, I went through and charted this, that when he comes off of ball screens, the percentage of the time that he doesn't settle for a jumper has really gone up. You know, last year it was 32 and a half percent of the time if he came off of he was going to take a pull up jumper. And this year it's up to 41.7. And part of that is there's an interesting like generations thing going on here where I've made fun of Nurkic a lot over the years in terms defensively, but, well, more lately. I loved him when he was with the Blazers, but that's kind of what I'm getting to is there's a kind of a Neo dame thing going on with Nurkic where Nurkic knows how to play this way. Nurkic is second in the league in screen assists right now and, and I think Keonte is a big part of that.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm glad you guys are mentioning some of these small guards though, because this is kind of one of my pet like things that I'm always like looking for because a lot of these guys have the athleticism, the dynamic shooting, all these different traits. And you're almost wondering why some guys get shuttled off into the six man score role versus the guys that really pop. There's obviously obvious things like success and just like some guys are just 1% shooters in the way that some guys aren't. But. But the one thing Will Hardy kind of pinpointed was that like he made a very conscious effort of like really changing like how he approached things. And you can kind of see it like he specifically said that some of his behaviors weren't good, was the specific quote from Hardy. I think he means more of his habits rather than like his interpersonal stuff. But if you look at what Keonte has said this season, apparently he went out and like made a concerted effort to work on his mental health. I think it meant like he contracted like a sports psychiatrist. But if you're looking at the change between last year to this year, it does feel like he's more dialed in than ever before. Like he had two straight seasons where he shot 39% from the field at like pretty decent volume. And he was like just very erratic and chaotic in a way that was really hard to pin down. And what do we do with chaos? We kind of shuttle them into the six man role. You say you could do one thing, but you can't compound that with all the other good things we need in order to organize an offense. And I also liked how even when he hit kind of a wall early on, Hardy was saying that because their offense is a little bit more programmatic. Like he was like, you can break free from the threes and layups thing that we're kind of going for here. You need the mid range actually. Yeah. And it seems like that was not only a thing from the coaching staff, but something that like he's been studying on his own in order to find counters to the defensive attention that he's getting. And so just seems like he's locked in in a way. And I know that seems like, like a little trivial at times, but like, he certainly is playing like someone who like relishes to like ringing the, the best out of every possession in the way that I think a lot of great players do.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, I don't think that's trivial at all. And a lot of sports psychology, if you really want to boil it down in just like a blanket way, is about focus. Right. It's about like how do you zero out distractions, how do you move on from one play to the next? How do you not get burdened by everything that's swirling around a professional athlete on the quarter off of it? And when we're talking about a young player making the leap by being more consistent, by settling less, by making more consistently good decisions. That's just telling me his focus has greatly improved, that he's more able to understand on this possession. I'm not going to let it affect. I'm not going to let what just happened affect me. I'm not going to let what's going to happen two quarters from now affect me. I'm going to get to my spot and I'm going to kill, kill, kill over and over and over. And expanding where those kill zones can be is really important. I think you're spot on jv about the importance of the mid range for him. And in particular he's been getting it to that like high paint floater range and just really eating there. And that's where the craftiest guards in the league really thrive. That's the Jalen Brunson space. That's the Dear and Fox space. Right. It's not just pure speed, although Chianti George is a great first step, but he's been so good at kind of like veering back and keeping guys on his back and understanding how to keep a defender at bay so that he can get to his spots. And like, if he's doing that now at this stage, the sky is really the limit for him as far as who he can be as a creator. It really opens a lot of doors.

[J. Kyle]

It's the development is discernment thing where, you know, knowing where and when and also developing those counters like it all kind of works together where. Justin, I think what you said and I think that this was the initial conversation that, that we had about him coming into the league was are you going to be able to prove that you can develop those counters in the mid range? Are you going to have to shoot the ball? Granted, he's, he's answered the bell on every front honestly, like shooting the shit out of the ball from three, getting into the paint and that. Because if you're not able to do that, that's when you kind of become the guy of like, okay, we need to take your chaos and put it into a jar that we're going to pull out. We can't, we can't trust your consistency. If you're going to be this guy who is like leaning full offense all the time, that's not somebody that we can have, you know, powering our, powering whatever our house for, for a whole game and rely on you because that's just ugly. If you want to be a distributor and Somebody who can balance all of those things. You have to evolve. And he has. And I, I think that it's changed the conversation around him. I think it was like around the potluck, wasn't it, when I said I think I picked him for favorite leap. I don't know, it was probably like a month or so ago, but that was a big thing for me is that he's, he's really shown that he's developed that discernment. And I think it's. I, I made this point then I think it's kind of rescued him in a way where I was worried about him. And he's gone all the way from being like, saved himself to like, this is a legitimate piece that they have.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hardy said that his change in approach is not a full 180 degrees, but probably like 168.

[J. Kyle]

Wow, that's a very Hardy thing to say. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

At the end of my article right there.

[J. Kyle]

Pretty good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Last one on the board here, one that Rob kind of griped about, including. But I find myself believing in one Donovan Klingon. It doesn't seem like you guys do as well.

[J. Kyle]

Danny Clingan.

[Justin Varier]

First of all, my griping is simply, you have to explain yourself. Like, you just have to justify, like, we're talking about a Keonte George level leap and you're like, yeah, but what about a blazer?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, we also needed to get three. It's true. The other options were great.

[Justin Varier]

I just want to hear you make the case. I want to make you hear. I want to hear your impassioned plea for Donovan Cling. And as one of the most compelling late break and leaps of the season.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. We should also note that, like, those first two guys seem like on the verge of something pretty substantial at the very least. Clingan seems like on the verge of being a regular high level contributor. Yeah, I would say leaps come in.

[J. Kyle]

Many shapes and sizes. You know, sometimes an All Star gets a little better and people, people dismiss that. It's like leaps, they're all important. Man, that sounds like a.

[Justin Varier]

It sounds like a hop to me though.

[J. Kyle]

It's all happening. It's all happening. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think the biggest hop, leap, bound, whatever you want to call it, first and foremost, has been staying on the court for him. He's playing 30 minutes a game since this over the past 12 games, which is like pretty significant now they need him to play that many minutes because they don't really have a lot of depth there. Never know when Rob Williams is playing and then Yang is kind of what he is at this point. But I think the increased conditioning has really been a boon for him. He looks the part and as a result he gets to leverage all the good things that big old frame gives him first and foremost on the boards. He is, if not the best offensive rebounder in the league. He's definitely in like the elite upper crust with like Mitchell Robinson, Rudy Gobert. Statistically, I think I was gonna say it's okay.

[Justin Varier]

I mean, you better throw Musa Diabate in there if you're gonna name those names.

[J. Kyle]

Steven Adams. Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, it was funny because the Celtics in a recent game went super small against the Blazers down the stretch, partly because they have their own center issues. Garza is what he is, but I think in part to dare Clingan to really do something. Clingan's biggest battle is being a force offensively at the rim. And for a while I was like, oh boy, they might win this one. But fortunately Cling got a big offensive rebound swung that game and basically sealed it for them. And that's a big win if you look at what the Celtics have been doing. And so the offensive rebounding is there. He's just a big old deterrent at the rim. The rim protection stuff is kind of waning as like the personnel around him hasn't been there. Like they're making do with a couple two way guys. So I don't know how much that is his fault. The big thing is the three pointer, which everyone is giving him as much fucking time to just like take the air, wind temp, like the wind speed, the temperature. He's checking the clock.

[J. Kyle]

I saw him, he lifts his fingers.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. But he is hitting over the past 12, 53% on three a game.

[J. Kyle]

I think that's indicative. I think that's going to stick. I think it's indicative.

[Justin Varier]

Well, he's fucking panning these shots. Like they are not like, oh, rim in. Oh, it looks kind of ugly. Like he's just drilling threes.

[J. Kyle]

I'm with you. No, I wrote down here he's. He's a solid one Mississippi shooter. He's like. He looks around, he looks both ways. Like he's like. And then he shoots it. Make sure there's no cars coming across the court or anything like that. I wanted to. Can we do measurements corner to support what you were saying? Just for connect. Can. When I just. Can I share?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Break out the tape, baby. Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

Aren't we always doing measurements? What else do we do?

[J. Kyle]

This is important because I don't think that people appreciate how big this dude is sometimes like it, it seems like an obvious thing to mention. He's pushing 7 foot 3 in shoes and he is a 7 foot 6 and 3 quarters wingspan. Gigantic human being. In that spurs game, Luke Cornette looked like he was struggling with his size. Kelly Olenk was afraid of him. And I think if you, if you just add to that just basic implied thing of like, okay, he's, he's just immovable around the basket to speak to what you're saying. And he's got pretty good hands. His craft isn't always the prettiest from A to B, but he gets it in the basket and that's always been true about him. But the fact that if he's going to be able to make these one Mississippi threes even if it drops to 35%. Yeah, I don't know what your floor is. That's great. That for a team like the Blazers, that's a big deal.

[Justin Varier]

I just want that diagram to scale. I want Donovan Clingan and like a stegosaurus next to each other just so we can really appreciate exactly what we're dealing with here.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the comp is Mark Eaton though. Like he's massive. Daniel Gafford, to Kyle's point, was here the other day and like he was actually kind of giving it to him because he has the springs in order to do so. But like he looked like a guard in comparison to Klingon.

[Justin Varier]

It is pretty crazy. I mean he's giant and he's enormous, especially as a screen setter too. And he's the kind of guy who will just like screen and re. Screen and rescreen and rescreen until he makes contact, which means he forces you to make a decision. It's part of the reason he and Denny have had like a nice little pick and roll game working this year. But I love the way this gives him something to do other than offensive rebound dunker spot action. Right. Like he's, he is such a good high post passer and he's going to be a little lumbering up and down the court despite that new and improved conditioning you were talking about, Justin. And so when he's trailing in transition, he can just kind of flow into this spot and teams aren't guarding him right now. What's going to be interesting is like when that gap catches up, when the scouting report says this is a dude shooting 50% from three this month and teams are actually honoring that, I think we're right to sort of circle that as a possibility in terms of how that could affect his, like, what he's doing here. But ultimately, even if they guard him, that's a success. Right. Like, we're just trying to figure out ways to keep Donovan Clingan on the court to make him a threat from further and further out, to turn him into really like a model for what these bigger, slower centers can be like. If Donovan Clingan right now is a guy Young Hansen can look at and say, okay, if I just. If I'm just a little more consistent from three, if I'm just making a little more contact on my screens, if I'm positioning myself better defensively in the way that Clingan does, that's a thing. Those are things that are all achievable for him, that are achievable for a lot of bigs. They just have to reach out and grab them and apparently hit more than half of their shots.

[J. Kyle]

What do you think about the fact that they. Do you think that in. In terms of them reading their roster going into that draft, what do you think it says about the way that they viewed Cling and. Because they. Them going after Young, I'm just kind of wondering, was that. Did they underestimate clinging a little bit because he's a better passer, I think, than people realize? I'm just kind of. Or was it purely a front court depth thing that they needed? Regardless, like, I'm kind of wondering if that. If that mindset that they had of going after that player type was appropriate now that we're getting to see Clingan be what we thought Clingan was and is.

[Justin Varier]

Well, it's at minimum a hedge, right?

[J. Kyle]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. I, I think they probably just looked at his. Young is special and they, they identified him as such and they, I mean, they maneuvered around the draft in order to get him. They traded back, made sure they weren't back so far that they could still draft him. I think they really just wanted Yong and were just going with. With that approach. But you're right, that was the obvious, like, next question. You just drafted a big guy. I mean, we could also point to the 2024 draft and say like, well, were they just drafting best player available? They had the spot open, but in that draft, I think you were just hoping for any sort of contributor there. But also there is a world where they can coexist. But you're right, like, it kind of diminishes.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, in the same way that Gafford and Lively kind of did for the Mavs. Different style of players. But like, could Clingan basically be the backup? That would probably have to be that. Or you could just move him and you just say that you got both right. And then you just had that good problem we were talking about with the magic. But you're right. It's definitely. They're going to overlap at some point, and that point might be as soon as next season.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, and I just. I have a little more faith in Klingon just in terms of how. How he positions himself on the court and how he anticipates action. And that's one of those things that young players can come along quickly if they do catch that groove. And I'm not ruling Young out from making that sort of development or that sort of relative leap. It just feels like Clingan is more comfortable anticipating what's coming at him when he's trying to, you know, blow up stuff as a defender, as a catch, all as a rim protector. Like, he just has a better feel for it in a way that basically allows you to stay on the floor or results in a ton of foul trouble.

[J. Kyle]

In Yang's case, he should have more feel, granted. I mean, I think he had better defensive feel at the same age. He's played a lot more serious basketball than Young at this point. But Justin in particular, though, I think we need to bring up. You said he was Rudy with a three. Was your hyperbolic assessment of Donovan Clingan. I've just. I was watching the way he was. He moves a lot, and I. It kind of reminded me of the conversation that we've had about Kalkburner, where it's like, Donovan is, I think, a pretty. He's not like a fly around putting out fires. Like, he doesn't rack up a ton of blocks, but he does add, you know, he's not to the Wimby level of, like, the amount of nopes that he adds up, adds up in a game. Like, he has that sort of, like, gravity where people see him and they're like, I'm not going to try it. I think he's just a really smart wagerer with his. With his size. Like, he knows he can stay down. I don't know. I don't. I don't know if he's quite to. I don't know if you were, like, wanting me to challenge the Rudy thing directly or if you were just for fun, but he doesn't quite move like Rudy, but he did effective. He knows how to move for his size and his talents.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think Rudy. No, I was. I was mostly Embellishing mostly. Mostly I think Rudy is. Can I. Rudy is a defense unto himself. I think Clingan is like the end point of a defensive system that earlier in the year when they had those pitbull like trio of Drew, Denny and. And Tomani kind of really popping. I think Clingan being on the back line is just a big old deterrent work to a lot to his strengths. And if you look at the rim production numbers like overall in the season, like the defensive field goal percentage is like Evan Mobley esque. And I think a lot of that is just because overall it's just tough to score on them when they had so many long big bodies there. Now if you look at it now more recently where it's like Caleb Love and some of these other guys who aren't defensive guys, they're pretty okay. Yeah, but as long as he's doing that. And I also think the good thing about the three point shooting is it's filtered down into the way he's playing overall. And then Kyle, you probably know this better than anyone. Like this is a guy at UConn that played with legitimate swagger. Like he had like the terror squad like chain going like that is who I thought Clingan would be. And last year because he struggled, I think he was pretty muted as just the character. And you've seen him play like a badass. And I think when you have that size that's going to intimidate like NBA sized humans. I think you want that guy to be like throwing your weight around literally. And I think it's had an effect. He's out there like talking shit to people like after he scores on them and they're on the ground and like I think you need that edge if you're a big guy.

[J. Kyle]

I think sometimes it can be fun to sort of over time see the broader NBA audience sort of discover a player's personality. I mean I think we've seen that with Chad a little bit. You do the optics thing of UC Donovan Clingan and he just kind of looks like a nice, meek kind of aw shucks guy.

[Justin Varier]

Well, he looks like an int. If we're being honest.

[J. Kyle]

I was going to say he is enormous.

[Justin Varier]

He is.

[J. Kyle]

I'm sure he is. I've never heard anything other than he is a nice guy, nice kid, but always resist the, the temptation to call people kids. But they are more and more to me, sadly. No, I mean he, he definitely has that fire where he can bubble up. Like I think when he made one of those Threes. He was like, pointing at the bench. He definitely has some of that MF in him. And I think it's been more fun to see as he's been out there and been more comfortable. Cause you did see it come out a lot at Yukon.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, I mean, you can tell the MF are in there because he's goosenecking on every single one of those. He's holding that follow through as long as a human being possibly can.

[Rob Mahoney]

When does Kyle start to get the MFER out of him on this pod? When does he start calling out other podcasts, being like, you talked about this the wrong way. I have the stats right here.

[Justin Varier]

I can't wait for it. What do we need to do to egg him along?

[J. Kyle]

I don't know, man. It's fun. I have mellowed out a little bit, but I'm a pretty intense competitor. You wouldn't think so. I get that from people sometimes, but I actually kind of. I have to tone it down. I don't know, know. Are you guys on the same level? I can see just. Justin, you probably got fired up in games, right?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, when I was in middle school, maybe when I got like the requisite five minutes, they had to play me, right?

[J. Kyle]

I mean, I'm complaining about guys bringing the ball up in the. The court and pickup. So we've established how intense I am. So I don't think Rob's on that level either.

[Justin Varier]

Sometimes. You know, I think. I think it all come. It comes for all of us for sure. I don't know that I'm on your level, though. I think I get the feeling, Kyle, that someone just like playing defense against you with any mild physicality would turn you into a rage monster.

[J. Kyle]

Now, come on a minute.

[Justin Varier]

You know, it's not a criticism. I'm just saying I see. I see the evil within you. That's what I'm saying.

[Rob Mahoney]

Rob's more like a Jokic. She just wants to go home and instead of play with his horses, he wants to watch his magnolia pictures.

[Justin Varier]

I mean, that's a stroke.

[J. Kyle]

Rob wants to stroke his corgi and watch Adrian Linker live concerts on YouTube.

[Justin Varier]

So, yeah, we contain multitudes. I want to do all that stuff and I want to fucking win. And it drives me insane when other people don't care, like if it's. If it's a winner. Stay on situation. What are we doing here?

[J. Kyle]

Like, I love it. I'm down.

[Justin Varier]

What are we doing?

[Rob Mahoney]

You got three winners right here, baby.

[Justin Varier]

Absolutely.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's why this works.

[Justin Varier]

And maybe Four with Donovan Klingon. You know, at least here's the thing. If we're going to make. If we're going to shoehorn him into this category, he at least has to also win big boy of the week, right? Like, he is by default the big boy of the week week.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, it's the big big boy of the week most weeks just by sure girth.

[Justin Varier]

It's true.

[J. Kyle]

I was gonna. One last thing on him is, you know, we were talking about his. Him as a force near the basket. Another thing that I was noticing is just him moving towards the rim whenever that, like, he collapsed. He has a lot of gravity at the rim whenever he doesn't even have the ball. And that serves guys like Shaden sharp. He. He sometimes creates straight line drives for Shaden just because he takes a couple steps towards the rim. And I think that that, that speaks to just another way that he can help your offense.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why can't I be friends with him in the way that Shaden is friends with him is my question. You know, like, I thought when I came here we would just be like pow wowing, talking about the good old days and at New Britain, like, hey, remember when you used to drive by ESPN's campus? Doesn't happen, unfortunately.

[Justin Varier]

But what are you bringing to the table?

[Rob Mahoney]

Nothing. I've made minimal effort. I said hi once. I told him I was from Connecticut. I don't think he was moved.

[J. Kyle]

You. You did? Wow. I was gonna say I can't see. I can't see Donovan, like getting down on his knees in your garden and like, you know, tilling earth. I'm trying to imagine what you guys would have in common, but yeah, that'd be a great social breakout. Justin tries to become friends with Clingan.

[Justin Varier]

I would love that.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that's gonna put me in jail, not morality.

[J. Kyle]

What's the good content too?

[Justin Varier]

What's the state of the garden, though, right now? Jv, what's going on?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's the winter. Ain't nothing going on with the garden. You can grow. Right now we're focusing on the bathroom.

[Justin Varier]

We're in full reno mode.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're rehabbing a bathroom, baby.

[Justin Varier]

Are you sledgehammering walls down? What are you doing?

[Rob Mahoney]

Not yet. So. So I've been waiting since the summer to redo it myself. I've convinced myself purely by watching YouTube videos and inundating myself with like, Instagram reels that I know how to like, overhaul a bathroom. See you shake your head.

[J. Kyle]

Rob has no faith. Rob has Justin.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is gonna happen.

[Justin Varier]

I believe in you more than almost anyone else in the world believes in you. And I don't think you could do this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wow.

[Justin Varier]

I think this is a mistake. I don't think you should renovate your own bathroom.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, well, now that monster in me is coming out and I'm gonna dominate that.

[J. Kyle]

That's all. You need those words.

[Justin Varier]

You need to. But this is the thing. I'm just trying to encourage you. I'm just trying to stoke that fire. Love that you need the haters in your life to really be your best.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's true. I also need to find the water shut off valve in my house, which I spent literally two days over the winter break looking for it. Cannot find it.

[J. Kyle]

We're off to a great start.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep. All right, let's, let's wrap it there. We'll be back on Sunday. Reminder, we'll be on Netflix. So the YouTubers, thanks for all the kind things you said to my mom. I'm sure we'll have clips still going up there, but it's been great. I think it's been fine. Honestly, it's been totally fine.

[J. Kyle]

Oh, my gosh.

[Justin Varier]

But it's going to be great on Netflix, you know, onward and upward.

[J. Kyle]

And I just want to reiterate. Stranger Things, Stranger Things. Stranger Things, Stranger things, et cetera, et cetera. Yep.

[Rob Mahoney]

So we back on Sunday, Netflix, but still on Spotify as per usual. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll talk to you next time. Time must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MD gamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-IT-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.