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The Ringer NBA Show
The NBA’s Tanking Problem Hits Rock Bottom and More Trade Deadline Ripple Effects | Group Chat
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced wi, fi, phone, tv, mobile services plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business so visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by AMC. You do not want to miss Rise of the 49ers the limited series event premiering February 1st and 2nd. Exclusively on AMC and AMC. Executive produced by Tom Brady, the docuseries charts the legendary rise of the San Francisco 49ers from underdogs to five time Super bowl champions in the 80s and 90s. It features interviews with Joe Montana, Jerry Rice and Ronnie Lott, as well as never be seen archival flight footage. Rise of the 49ers premiering February 1st and 2nd. Visit amcplus.com to start your free trial now.
- [01:18]
B
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varior and joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle, man, Just want to let the listeners know up front that we're only going to be recording 3/4 of this podcast. There are a couple interns that had a couple sharp barbs in the office the other day. Want to get them a little bit of run, you know, so just, just a heads up, we're only playing three quarters here.
- [01:41]
C
You're already grinding axes. We're just starting the podcast. Like what is. What is stuck in your craw? Justin?
- [01:46]
B
I think it's pretty obvious. I don't know if you guys were watching the Utah Jazz last night. Should we just jump into it?
- [01:52]
D
First of all, I don't know.
- [01:53]
C
I don't know if you guys watching the Utah Jazz last night is the most group chat statement imaginable. So we can only be ourselves.
- [02:00]
B
I was just like kind of spinning around the NBA as I often do on a Saturday night, alone in my house and I saw a photo that Jaren Jackson Jr. Was playing and I was like, oh, I didn't realize he would be playing at all, let alone playing this early. And I was like, let's check this out. And for that quarter, I think it was the third quarter, pretty interesting, right? Lowry's in there, Jackson's in there. Nurkic looking reborn as just like a playmaking hub for this team. And then the fourth quarter hit. Despite the fact that they were up seven, those guys just disappear. And now there's another layer to this that the Magic actually struggled to win this game at the end. And so that's another question we need to get to at some point. But the Jazz is tanking, has hidden, I want to say hidden another level. But they've been doing this because they did this the game before with Mark and in. And I think it's kind of incumbent on us to be like pointing this out because the tanking has gotten worse. And I think it's going to keep getting worse until people get mad enough about it.
- [02:57]
C
Yeah, I'm okay with pointing it out. I mean, we can be the ombudsman of NBA tanking and competitive equity, but to what end? Like, what are, what are we hoping to solve or fix here? Because the NBA has kind of been gesturing at trying to fix this stuff for years. Justin, you said the Jazz have been doing this for a while now. They been doing it for a while in seasons lengths like year over year over year have been doing this now. No one really seems to be all that bothered by it.
- [03:24]
D
Yeah, it, it was last year and the year before. I mean, it was getting to the point with like Lowry Markin and it was like, has anyone seen him? I, you know, I feel like they were. We, we had varying reports and visuals just to even get an idea of whether he was healthy or whether he was alive, quite frankly, at different points last year. And, and you know, know, I was watching them basketball wise, just to speak to that a little bit. They did look really interesting. And I know we were speculating on paper about, you know, Kessler wasn't out there and didn't play obviously, but the spacing. I put a screenshot of this on, on Instagram where I was just laughing as I was watching this, where they had Ace, Ace in the left corner and they had Lowry in the right corner, deep in the corner and the space at the top of the floor with, with, with Jaren Jackson screening for Keonte and then the reborn Nurkic, you know, in the play as well. I mean, it was just an incredible vast amount of open space. So this team is instantly interesting and instantly proposed something that was difficult for Orlando to deal with. And you know, with the victory and, and reach, they decided not to reach for it. But I, you know, to speak to the tanking part of it though, it's so wild to like read on Twitter or just wherever these thing or NBA Reddit. Every time someone comes with some very well thought out proposition for how to fix this, there inevitably every single time are 20 people who come down and say, like, well, you just created this cataclysmic problem that would have to be dealt with. To speak to what Rob was saying, it's just like I. That's where I am too, Rob, where I'm just like, yeah, we can complain about it, but I don't know what to do. It just seems Occam's Razor. Like we just might as well stick with what we got.
- [05:01]
B
I get that the incentive system is really the trouble here, and especially for a small market team, because as we've seen time and time again, the only way for guys in Utah, in Portland, in Memphis, the only way to luck into the type of talent that can put you on a certain level is to do so in the draft. And the only way to do that is to tank. I would argue that in recent years, it does seem like the flattening of the odds has kind of undercut that. At the very least. We've seen a lot of teams jump up even in the past couple of years since they've made that change. I just think it's fine to point that out. But I do think we're at the point where there needs to be action because this is pretty fucking embarrassing to basically say that we have, what, 30 more games left in the season and they're just not going to try for a certain quarter, even though that they could be a different thing. I think this deadline set it up so that the problem is going to be in avoidable, where you had a lot of teams that were bad making the biggest moves. And so we're used to, on this podcast everywhere else in the NBA to be like, oh, old faces, new places.
- [06:01]
C
Let's.
- [06:01]
B
Let's kind of diagnose all this new stuff that's going on. Instead we're seeing teams not play Those guys in D.C. in indie. Sounds like Zubot isn't going to play for a little bit. Or you're seeing them just get benched for no fucking reason. Like, the point of basketball as a product, as an entertainment source, is to watch these amazing athletes do what they do. To suggest that they're not going to do that as much as they can and is really like kind of chilling in terms of just like the future of the sport.
- [06:29]
C
I think I wouldn't go that far just because this feels like one of those things that real people, and by that I mean not us, don't care about that much. Like, if you are a hardcore Utah Jazz fan, are you aware of what's happening? Yeah. You're not blind to it. Like, you're watching these games or not, but you're generally aware of what, like how they're managing the rotation to lose these games more or less intentionally, but so long as it gets you Darren Peterson, no one really gives a shit. And this is kind of one of the problems with trying to fix this is history forgets shamelessness when it works. And if it gets you the guy that you want, no one really cares about how shameless it was in the first place.
- [07:09]
B
I guess my question though, Kyle, is, is the NBA's goal to just satisfy the fans that they already have, that NBA fans are aware of this and they're keen to the fact that like short term pain leads to long term gain and that like the team could be something and the way to do that is this. Have they honestly been institutionalized to that point? I think we could talk about that as well. Or do we need to worry about the casual fans? Especially as football comes and takes over more and more of like the sports mindset, they're coming into Christmas and all these other parts of the NBA schedule that used to be NBA specific. Because if you're a casual fan and you're seeing teams not care, and I think it's going to be like probably a third of the league down the stretch here just not care, not play good basketball, not even aspire to do so, actually try subterfuge in order to get to that point. Like, is it really causing long term damage? That's just not as loud.
- [08:02]
D
I don't, I honestly don't think so because I think that we've seen this time and time again. You know, we love a sport, we love the purity of a sport. We love to watch basketball and watch it played well. But when you're talking about casual fans, there is also the, you know, the NBA is a product and something that is baked into that product is the theater. And as sad as it is to say out loud, I think at times part of the theater is the absurdity of teams tanking and teams that have no games going on of consequence. You know, if like the, if the Thunder did something like that, granted we've seen good teams hold their players out strategically and you know, that's frustrating and I think we have to put things in place to, to deal with that so that fans that spend, you know, a ton of money for whatever occasion to go out and see a star play, that they aren't penalized for that thing. But a team like the Jazz, maybe their fans are annoyed. I think we talk about tanking events all the time because they're humorous so as annoying as it is and as, like, as much as I would love to maintain and be a purist and bang my fist and yell at clouds about it, I'm just like, at the end of the day, I don't think it matters that much because the only people who are like, on the precipice of I like basketball, I'm. I'm on the market to maybe like, a different type of basketball are like, people from college communities. Like, where I'm from, we're all here complaining about, like, they don't try, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just don't think that those people are in line to be won or lost on this. I guess I'm a little more. Maybe I'm more closer to where Rob is on this, where I'm just like, I just don't. I don't think so. At the end of the day, like, I feel like the silliness is, Is. Is a, is a part of it all. And. And, you know. Yeah.
- [09:36]
C
I also think, weirdly enough, the NBA gets a lot of COVID from the fact that those undecideds that Kyle is talking about, like, the casual sports fans who might be trying to figure out how they feel about tanking are probably just casual sports fans across the board. And the point at which this is the most egregious is happening basically during March Madness. And so there's just like a lot of other sporting stuff in the ether where if it was as simple as, like, we're recording this on Super Bowl Sunday and starting tomorrow, everyone was paying attention and locked in on the NBA without, like, to a fault, then that might be one thing. But there's about to be a big shiny distraction with all of the. The, like, most appealing college players on full display, while the Jazz and the Nets and the Pacers and the Mavericks and the Grizzlies and as Justin salute to the growing list of teams that have no real incentive to win are going to be kind of doing their stuff in the shadows. And then by the time the tournament is over, the NBA playoffs are here, and then that's really the time for those casual fans to migrate back anyway.
- [10:33]
B
Is that just appropriate cover for what teams have learned works versus, like, what should happen? Like, what if the NBA just, like, everybody actually put together a good enough product so that the stretch run was actually interesting, that like, these, these races for the get into the play in or seating actually mattered more? And so I ultimately think you guys are right griping about the way the league is now. It's tough to really find a way where things can get better. Because I think humans will always adapt and find ways to do something like this. My thing is, I think perhaps the point is we need to start attacking the incentive structure head on. There was already kind of burbling about this in the league office that they were going to consider more dire consequences over the off season, changing some of the rules. I think we're at that point. I would just love a situation where at the very least a team can't take for so many years. Right. I think my proposal. And people always have their own proposal. I think mine would be something more on the moderate side where, yeah, you could tank two years. We get it. This is like how it works. But like three or four, that's when things start to boil over. Is there like a middle ground where like we could do some of this, but not this every fucking year? I don't know.
- [11:45]
D
How do you prove tanking though? Is an idea that is driven by an empirical conclusion. Like you watch, you watch a team. Are we just going to go by records and stat? Like, are they going to. I just don't understand how the. Isn't it in the eye of the beholder like what's going on in a basketball game? It just seems like if you were going to litigate this and be like, well, we had our reasons for doing this. Are we going to go fucking argue it in court? And is the NBA just going to. You know what I mean? I don't see how you're going to like hardcore litigate. Litigate something like.
- [12:13]
B
Yeah, no, you have to avoid. And 10 if you're going to put new restrictions in place. I think it would be as simple as you can't be in the five worst records two years in a row. And if you are, you get sent to the back of the first round or something like that, where it's just purely based on objective data which is record. And at that point, like maybe that's too harsh because maybe two years isn't enough. Maybe we could do research into like what is an appropriate amount in order to in air quotes, rebuild. I do think that one of the problems, and probably the easiest one to address is long term tanking as opposed to teams just doing it in spades because every team is going to go through ups and downs, of course. What do you think about this? You think that's like too soft, too hard?
- [12:55]
C
I think what you're recommending is totally reasonable and will probably never happen because in order to pass it would have to Go through the competition committee, which means all of the team governors for the exact small markets you already identified will never vote for it. Like, I think that's ultimately why, like, I don't believe we're going to get a fix on tanking. For the same reason I don't think we're ever going to get a shorter season. And that's because the people who run and own teams are incredibly stubborn, especially with what. Whatever they consider to be their market advantage or whatever equalizes the market for them. And the other part of it is NBA leagues run on inertia like that is, or, sorry, sports leagues in general run on in inertia like, they don't want to change. They want the systems that have been in place for years and years. And so if you really want to fix this stuff, abolish the draft. Like, that's how you do it. You shift it into a different form of some. Like, I'm like, you know, Justin, you were talking about, we all have our kind of like designated fixes that we like to propose. For me, it's if you want to have like a rookie salary slot in which the, the exact number you can offer to a rookie or combination of rookies is dependent on how bad your record was, fine. But basically turn it into a rookie free agency period, instead, I think solves a lot of the problems.
- [14:07]
D
Couldn't. That could not work. Just couldn't.
- [14:10]
C
Well, not something will work.
- [14:12]
D
Yeah, but like, no, I mean, ultimately.
- [14:14]
C
Like something like here there's, There's a couple of different problems. The draft itself is not an interesting product. Like, it is fundamentally broken. There is no power. Well, that's not your fault.
- [14:23]
D
You're.
- [14:24]
C
You're just playing in the system that's been handed to you. But like, it tells us nothing about who players are. They have no power or agency in it whatsoever other than like Kobe Bryant style saying, like, you better not take me, Charlotte Hornets. Like, that's really the only way that they can flex at all. And so you have this system where the teams have all the power and they will never, ever, ever vote to give that up.
- [14:45]
D
I, I was going to say, I guess Philly is the exception here. I'm trying to think of major market free agency destination teams. If you'd had the Venn diagram, how many of those, how many of those franchises have had any significant moment of tanking other than Philly? I'm. I'm just asking this retort, like I might be forgetting, but Philly seems like the main one and that seems to.
- [15:07]
B
Kind of be they just weren't honest about what they were doing when they got Abraham and Russell, and that was a pretty blatant tank job.
- [15:15]
C
Were they honest or were they just bad?
- [15:18]
B
It was probably a little bit of both.
- [15:20]
C
I think this is where, again, the intent is impossible to legislate and there are no clear, bright lines other than jv. Like you're saying, if you want to institute some kind of rule about multiple years, I think that makes sense. But what does that even mean?
- [15:33]
B
Yeah, I just don't think we need to deal with intent. I think it's more about the product at hand. And I tend to find that we end up in the same place with these sorts of conversations, which is like, well, it's up to the league ultimately, and they're not going to do it because of money. Because of. They're the ones kind of ushering this in. The owners are the ones in control. Adam Silver ultimately works for them when it comes down to it. But I kind of think that's like getting them off the hook because I keep circling the same. We keep circling the same conversations, but ultimately everyone, I think in the league who follows the league, who's a casual observer of the league, agrees that there are too many fucking games and that we're like, oh, they'll never do it. Da, da, da. In fact, they're adding more with the play in tournament. I just think at a certain point, if Silver, the league want this to be any better, you have to do the hard work of making those sacrifices. I think the injuries that have happened, the soft tissue injuries, the fact that the strains are like, it's weekly now at this point. We were making jokes about it the other day, and then Payton Watson goes out, Luca goes out with one. It's just, I do think we're at the point, and perhaps this is me personally, just where I am at in terms of my long, like, tenure following the league. But also I think it's like, I hear this from casual fans, hardcore fans, etc. Like, you need to do the hard work that everyone agrees would make it better, as opposed to just like, assuming that, like, the money is going to flow regardless and that's the only thing that matters here.
- [16:56]
C
Well, let me ask you this, Justin. You're a human being living in the world in 2026.
- [17:00]
D
Ostensibly, I was going to say let's qu. But yeah.
- [17:04]
C
Do you think there is any company at all making any kind of consumer product that is actually trying to make it better for us right now? That's not what they do. Like the NBA cares by my eye, by their action so much more about like, can we start a splinter league in Europe? As opposed to fixing the ways that the NBA itself is flawed. Like they, it's just a money making endeavor at the end of the day. And like 82 games is a way to make more money than 66 games, at least guaranteed money based on the models that they understand.
- [17:34]
B
I guess I'm backdoor like suggesting a protest because it's like if the money flows based on the attention economy, the way to show that the league isn't doing things right is to like turn it off. And I'm sure, I'll be honest with you, Justin.
- [17:48]
C
We have, we have a job covering the league. What are we doing right now?
- [17:52]
B
But I do think we are complicit to a certain extent because we are in this weird phase where like most media feels like it's in some nebulous sort of like community fan driven mode almost. Because I, I would argue Marvel and the nerds have completely upended the way that traditional media should work where everything.
- [18:11]
C
Is fan service now, like the Scarlet Witch's fault.
- [18:14]
D
We have like walked up to several like rabbit holes and looked down them and just kept walking in this conversation.
- [18:19]
B
Well, I do think it touches on a lot of like hot button things, especially considering what we do. I realize it's meta and all that, but like, I do think I'm not complicit in what the NBA does. If anything, I'm a consumer. And I do think, like, we have a job to speak for the consumer in this. And I think it's incumbent on us to be like, this is bullshit and it should change. Like this season is NBA season, if we're being honest, I think has been subpar in large part because of the injuries. And I just think it's undercut the main source of, of attraction for the league and the thing that it's been selling since the Larry Bird, Magic Johnson era kind of sprung us into where we are now, which is superstars. We do not get enough superstar play. And that's tangential to the tanking thing. But like, there aren't enough good players playing and that's a big part of it. And I think it kind of coalesces because, like, there aren't enough good teams playing their good players.
- [19:13]
D
Yeah, I think the only thing that really has been proven to be effective is the terror that I think it put, or depression, whatever you want to call it, of a team like Dallas, a team like Philly the just sort of cruel indifference of the numbers coming into play. And those teams, leapfrogging teams who have done all this, this preparation to try to get the odds to play in their favor, maybe it's something further in that direction because I feel like that affected behavior of teams in the way that they prepare and go about their business. Just knowing, I mean, Utah, granted, Utah is still tanking. They're one of the teams that got leapfrogged and they're still tanking. So maybe I'm. Maybe I'm incorrect about that. But that. That seemed to. That to me, that's probably more the direction they should go is do something further with the odds and things like that because it does seem to have made a difference.
- [19:59]
C
I'm open to any option, really. I just think, as Kyle talked about, every action you take has a million splinter resulting actions that could be a real problem for the league in one way or another. And I'm open to experimentation in this way. I don't think you need to be beholden. Like you can try something for a couple of years and if it doesn't work, revert or change the system. Again, like this is sports. Like we don't have to treat it as if this is like the longest standing public policy in existence. You can fix this stuff. I just don't think that the people like in particular NBA team governors feel that way or think that way. And it leads to a lot of your frustration, Justin. I'm sure a lot of frustration for a lot of people out there with the state of the NBA product. But I wish I could say I had any confidence whatsoever it would change.
- [20:43]
B
There are other kind of half measures ideas that have been out there too. Like the wheel had a good run of like two to three years where people were saying that that was the pop popular counter example of what could happen. There are like, I mean, I see feels like a lot of junior executives, most of their free time is spent coming up with ways to make the league marginally better. And so I'm sure you can get a panel together to come up with something at the very least that pushes us in the right direction. But I'm at the point where I would like to see legislation happening. And to your point, Rob, like, I agree that like people will find ways to kind of undercut that, but if it's like it changes things for five years or so, if things get better, we can make adjustments on the fly. If anything, Adam Silver has been very aggressive everywhere else in the league making minor tweaks year after year. But the things that matter, which is like, oh, Nope, doesn't matter. 82 games. I just hit my lamp. I'm just so frustrated.
- [21:37]
D
I wish we could rig up your lamp to vibrate the matter you get about something.
- [21:43]
B
I just. I want to see something different.
- [21:45]
C
I would love something different. I. I think for me, like, this is clearly an issue. It's been a problem for a long time. I. I would love to be able to summon the enthusiasm and fight that you still have in these trenches. Jv, I've been worn down by the years and years and years of this, and I just see other stuff going on that I'm like, that feels much worse to me. Giannis Antetokounmpo having a sponsorship with Kalshi Kalsi, however you pronounce that company, is a disgrace. Like, yes, embarrassing to the league, actively disruptive to any sense of comp. Like fair competition within it.
- [22:19]
D
Those commercials make me want to blow my brains out. I mean, I can't. I. They are just the lowest trough of human. I can't. Have you seen the commercials?
- [22:29]
C
I haven't seen the commercials.
- [22:30]
D
Oh, my God. It's like, it's all this AI video. Rob. I disrupted you. Go ahead, finish for your thoughts.
- [22:35]
C
No, no, like, walks through the commercials. What's going on? It's.
- [22:39]
D
I'm pretty sure it's a completely AI generated video, like, commercial where it's just these people in different situations, like betting on ridiculous things in their, in their, in their day to day life. But it is a. It's. I'll give it to them. It's a great representation of the product. We just, I mean, we just punted our Kalshi sponsorship. But yeah, I'm.
- [22:57]
B
You know what?
- [22:58]
C
I'm cool with that. I feel very comfortable. But yeah, it's like, look, betting is obviously entrenched within the NBA. It's entrenched within our podcast and the coverage of the NBA across the board. Like, think we're all involved at this point. Players having active relationships with betting markets is very, very bad. And prediction markets in particular, extremely bad.
- [23:20]
B
Right after you just went through a situation that people were probably actively betting on. And the way he kind of introduced it, first of all, right after the trade deadline, which was really fucked up. Like, I don't know who is managing Giannis at this point, but, dude, you need a fucking, like, reality check because you just.
- [23:38]
D
Bucks fans were pissed. I was reading. Like, I. They were livid and I didn't blame them.
- [23:44]
B
Yeah, so are we to assume that everything that happened up until that point was. Was fake, that he wasn't actually asking for a trade that, like, the Bucks were complicit. Just like, these are the type of things that, like, are asked as a result of something like that. And I just can't believe that that happened.
- [24:02]
C
So the good version of events is that it was normal superstar Whis behind the scenes that he wants to go play for the Knicks, and then changing his mind, and then changing his mind, and then changing his mind, and then changing his mind. That's the good version. The bad version is actively perpetrating a fraud over months, if not years, while working in collusion with the predictive betting market. I sure hope it's not that one, because that seems so much worse than even, like, whatever shit Terry Rosier was doing.
- [24:29]
D
Yeah, that's. That's rough.
- [24:31]
B
Yeah, I. I think Mark Stein did a good job pointing this out on his substack, where the NBA, I guess, released some sort of graphic to suggest that this was the busiest trade deadline week in history or whatever benchmark they used. Now it's a little, like, kind of fuzzy there because it just kind of restricted it to a week versus, like, the months leading up to it when we've seen a lot of activity. So who knows? But the fact that they were trumpeting that. That this was busy transaction period, at the very least, suggests that they appreciate the attention that they're getting during this week, especially when the super bowl is happening.
- [25:03]
C
True.
- [25:03]
B
And how much that matters to their bottom line. I feel like we've gone back and forth with this where it's, like, a lot. I think, a. We're vocal about, oh, the transaction game is kind of taking over the actual game. We need to be watching the game as opposed to dealing with Woj bombs all the time. I honestly think we've kind of settled in a nice little middle ground there with this year, but at the very least, the league values this, and it honestly kind of undercuts this whole idea as kind of nonsense theater, or perhaps even, like, scripted to the point where Giannis is suggesting that, like, maybe this wasn't even real. And I do think, like, we're talking about the integrity of the league. That's kind of, like, the big headline of all these conversations. Like, I think it kind of undercuts that as well. Like, we probably know that a lot of this stuff is a little bit more for show than it actually is. If you're on the inside of these things, a lot of things are. Are trumpeted up in order to make it ESPN segments first and foremost. Yeah, but like to say that like this all leading up to it, the months of podcasts and talking about the league and ramifications might not be real, is fucked up. Like, like, I think Giannis more than us, has a duty to at the very least sell that this is like an actual thing happening. Like that the integrity of the league matters.
- [26:12]
C
Well, especially if it's not real. Not for smoke and mirrors negotiations and trade related reasons where things get leaked into the media, things get put out there all the time so that teams can negotiate their markets and kind of manipulate who is available and what they would get in return. All that stuff is just like part of the marketplace baked into it. This is something else entirely and something so much more gross. And it's like, I can't imagine the Czech is even that good to dip your toe in this deep. Like it's, it really is just kind of like an unforgivable thing, to be honest with you. What, what Giannis is engaged in, not that he runs the company, but it's like you have to be smarter than this. You have to care about the sport and the league a little more than that.
- [26:53]
D
Is Kohl's. Are Kohl's and Ellie Kemper not enough for you, Giannis? You know, that's the question we got. Yeah, yeah. I'm more fascinated by Justin. You don't think there. I'm going to take it back a little bit. We've gone on this for a while.
- [27:05]
B
I know.
- [27:06]
D
But the. You don't think there are great players playing? You don't think so? Or is it like, are you basing that on load management type thing or what are you basing that observation on.
- [27:16]
B
Just the fact that we've kind of undergone pretty massive wave of soft tissue strains and whatnot. I mean, there are a lot of good players, but as we're, as we're just looking at this, the Thunder aren't playing Shay because he's out. Jokic was just out. I think we're going to get to a pretty dire point where like if Shea doesn't qualify for the mvp, that Jokic might not as well. Like, who the fuck do we give the MVP to because of another arbitrary rule where we just set a benchmark and all of a sudden we can't go over that, even though 62 games would be perfectly fine to give Jokic an MVP and not 65. But like, yeah, I think if you were watching the league this year, I think the dance of is this player playing or not? Especially if you're going to those games, playing good money in order to see those guys play. Like, I think it's worse than ever. Like, I've only gone and paid my own money, thankfully a few times in order to see games over the past couple years. Every time I'm like, I'm crossing my finger, oh, I hope Jokic plays. I hope this guy plays. It's like, it sucks as a fan.
- [28:15]
C
That roulette does suck. Like, there's really no way around it. Again, I think we have a sense of what the solution is. It's playing fewer games. We already talked about why that's probably not going to happen. And yet it just gets worse and worse and the repercussions continue to spill over. Like, not only is Shea not playing right now, Justin, he's already been announced as being replaced for the All Star Game. Alper and Shangun, you are now an All Star. I assume the league would love to have Shai Gil, just Alexander representing it and the future of the sport, to say nothing about Team World or whatever its name is, that's going to be competing in the game itself. That's not going to happen. Like, you can't turn injuries off, but there are so many things we could be doing to minimize them and make the schedule and the cadence of the series of the season more, more manageable for everyone involved. And it's just one of those areas that is like a third rail because it touches the finances and no one wants to mess with anything that could turn like the, the spigot of money.
- [29:05]
D
Pouring out, the dilution of the product. I think, which is a result of what you're talking about is I think it has a negative impact on the stakes of the games in a way. And you guys are going to. You guys are going to cringe and think this is very predictable thing for me to say, but, man, that is one thing that college basketball really has on the NBA. And I was like, if you go into a big event game, say it's a conference game that matters. For college football really has this too in an even more extreme way where every game just has these massive. If you're, if you have the aspirations to get to the highest level, it's like your resume has these fewer chances to get these major points. And it's like on a given night, you're just like, you were talking about like the, the Utah Jazz tanked in the fourth quarter against the. The Orlando Magic. And it's just farting into the basketball ether and no one cares or thinks about it again if they get a good pick or whatever it is. I just think, I wish that we weren't so hardline on that because it feels like commercially college basketball is expanding. It's not really hurting them and, and they might add games eventually, but the consequence just feels so different. And it's something that you just don't even see until you get into the 16 game. You know, journey path, whatever you want to call it to get to the title. I don't know, I wish we saw more of that in the NBA consistently.
- [30:20]
C
Agreed.
- [30:20]
B
Consequences is the perfect word for this. There has to be consequences for your actions. And we've been saying for years and years and years now that these actions are just not in line with like promoting what is best for the game, what is the best of the game and what's in the best interest of the game. And for there not to be any hard line consequences as a result is a problem. And there's also the medical side of this. Even when you talk to any sort of person in the medical field about like injuries and like the abundance of injuries and the increase of injuries, they're always very careful about what is and what is not. Just because that's just the field that they're in. But you talk to anybody in the league, you talk to players, you talk to people behind the scenes. Playing NBA basketball requires more from your body than ever before. For probably longer and over a longer parts of the court because it's all spread out now. The torque and stress on the human body is worse than it ever is before. And to just completely ignore that and add more games in the play in and do nothing to try to fix that is embarrassing. Like we should be at 60, 68 sort of games and these two things dovetail because it's just like nothing's happening. It's very frustrating. As you can tell by now.
- [31:32]
D
If we address the dilution and add to the. To the quality of each outing, don't you think that commercially it would balance out? We wouldn't get this just wash of like Tuesday night. Hornets, Wizards. I know that's the one we always say, but just like Hornets are really.
- [31:45]
C
Good locked in on that game. So be respectful.
- [31:48]
D
I've tried to, I tried to pick something that was the go to for so many years, but just any, any like forgettable regular season game between two teams. I, I just. You would think that if they did that, that it would even out, that the consequences of, of an important game would you watch some of these games mean it's like every possession feels meaningful and we're. And we're getting that all the way through. So. So I would, I would think that, that, that if they adjusted that, that it would even itself out. But maybe not.
- [32:15]
C
I mean, you're preaching to the choir. Let's get Jim Dolan on the phone. Let's get Mickey Arison on the like. This is, this is. The problem is not convincing us or even people who watch the NBA. It's convincing the people who profit from the NBA.
- [32:27]
B
Yes. And as we're recording this, the wizards are down 30 in the third quarter to the Miami Heat. Good stuff. All right, why don't we take a break? I'm going to take a melatonin and we'll be right back.
- [32:41]
A
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- [34:40]
B
All right, in between all the tanking, we did see some old faces in new places. Always nice to see you get the James Harden and the Cavs jersey. You get Anthony Davis in a Wizard's jersey at the very least for the photo op, but definitely not for actually on the court. It sounds like whether he plays this season is up in the air, I guess. Rob, what was like the, the one that stuck out to you thus far of the first impressions? You only got like one game of some of these guys, but did, did one of those games kind of, at the very least, did you target for over the weekend?
- [35:09]
C
Well, at the risk of not diversifying our podcast conversation, it was Jaren Jackson Jr. On the jazz. Just because seeing him implemented with that space, with the flexibility, with like, like elements of his game that I think we take for granted, including what he can do kind of in the mid range with all these weird little post shots and like a push shots and deep seals and things like that. It's like he is a kind of weapon that a Will Hardy offense can really, really benefit from. And not to drag us back into the muck, but like, this is one of the things about the Jazz that's so infuriating is like they are so clearly a better run team than they represent on a regular basis, like whenever they decide to be good. And that might be as soon as next season with, you know, Kessler back and Jackson fully integrated in whatever draft pick that they tank their way into receiving, they're going to really sing because like the, the coaching and the style of the offense and the scheme, all of that stuff is really, really sharp. And seeing Jaren Jackson in it to me was just like kind of a revelation. Like, he just looked like a totally different kind of score in admittedly very limited time.
- [36:14]
D
Yeah, I mean, Will Hardy was basically Tony Stark in a cave with a box of scraps like you could. He can make stuff work. And it's funny. It's going to be very funny. And I think last night was a kind of a harbinger sign of, of what may be to come. Where, I don't know, Utah, Danny Ainge might have to like put him in beer goggles or something, make it harder for him to coach the game, like, because he's, he has legitimate weapons now and it's, it's, yeah, the Nurkic part of it is really funny. Where I've like, I've teased him a lot, like about his. His defense, but just like when you're hanging out. No, yeah. I've yet to meet him, but. Yeah, but I just think I praised him a lot when he was with the Blazers between because I really thought he made a lot of their offensive stuff work and I think you've seen some more of that stuff lately. Yeah, it's just the. That lineup really, really needs passing ace looked pretty good in spots. I didn't see a stat line, but I liked the proof of concept for the first. For the first thing that I saw from the Jazz.
- [37:08]
B
Yeah, listen, it's objectively hilarious that when they wanted to really push the tank button that they sat their three best players, which were Laurie Markkanen, Jaren Jackson Jr. And Yusuf Nurkic. George got hurt earlier than that game, so we'll. He probably isn't going to come back for the rest of the season, so.
- [37:24]
D
So they say, right? Yeah, right. Show me the X ray.
- [37:29]
B
But Nurk, like, legitimately like working as like a elbow hub diamond dudes up. It's just like he's reborn and that's the whole thing. Like, it does feel like they've. They managed to bring the best qualities of, of some of these players out of it, but doesn't matter because, you know, when. When the rubber meets the road, Nurk's on the bench.
- [37:49]
C
Yusuf Nurkic, like, I can't believe I'm saying this under slightly different circumstances would be an incredible story. Like what that transformation and him like kind of refinding himself, tapping into what he does best for a team if they were actually playing for something, I think a lot of people would be excited about it and talking about it. Instead it's just like, yeah, here's a. Here's a backdoor feed going into the void and no one will ever speak of it again.
- [38:12]
B
Well, another action on Saturday night, we got our first glimpse of James Harden in a Cavaliers jersey. It was hilarious because I don't know if you guys saw the video of this where I guess Travis Scott was a. Like a. Was there with Vivek. He was like a privileged fan, where they were just hanging out courtside, which Vivek loves to do, just trot out celebrities. So it seems like he's important. And when the Cavs won that game, Scott just completely left Vivek behind and just like hugged Harden, then just like followed him off the court to the other end. Just like didn't say goodbye to that guy.
- [38:44]
C
Well, to be fair, he had to get out of there. He's not rap shooting on the Odyssey yet.
- [38:49]
D
It's like you get stuck in that conversation at the party and you see somebody you know a little bit better. Oh yeah, important business. You gotta, you gotta eject. You gotta know your exits.
- [38:58]
B
But I did think it was funny also because if you looked at the lines from that game from the Cavs and there are a bunch of graphics being like, Jared Allen had this, Harden had this, and Mitchell had this. But then they almost got like beat pretty handedly by the Kings at a certain point. But Harden, I did feel like in the midst of all that, his like just ease of playmaking and just the ability to just have the, the muscle memory to get guys involved. Just like as if he just woke up from a nap. It's just that easy to him. I do wonder if that plays pretty pivotal role down the stretch here. Because the one thing I am worried about in the east overall is that while the Pistons have a pretty decisive lead and they ultimately might end up with the best records in the league if the, the Thunder can turn things around without Shay, I do wonder if the door is open more than the Pistons would like it to be. That's kind of like one of the bigger, like subtle takeaways I have from the deadline. Rob is just like maybe the Pistons needed to do something. Cause right now it seems like kind of an open field and they did a little bit.
- [39:57]
C
You know, like even just getting someone like Kevin Herder I think is a nice kind of lower key addition for them that can round out their rotation a little bit, giving them a little bit more respectability in terms of their weak side spacing.
- [40:08]
D
Hurt, can't hurt. I always say a little hurt or can't hurt.
- [40:12]
C
You do often say that they probably could have done more. I think the Knicks could have done more. I think there's a lot of teams in the east that maybe could be kicking themselves if they run into the wall. Come like mid maybe. But ultimately if you're Detroit, I get not swinging too hard. Under the circumstances I would, I would even advocate for them being, you know, welcoming the risk a little bit more. But if you're already this good and you're this young, sometimes you just talk yourself into a more conservative outcome. I don't agree with it. I'm with you that I think that ultimately there are so many teams kind of like in it in the east, even though none of them is individually like exceptional right now. Just like the sheer volume of teams that like could talk Their way into being in a conference final at this point would make me a little bit nervous. But Detroit is very good. Maybe they'll make us look foolish and just kind of take care of everybody.
- [41:00]
D
I think you nailed it with the hardened part of this with his. He. He just has this preternatural muscle memory, whatever you want to call it, to play with smart rolling bigs. I mean, he's played. I don't even know. Has he played with a great pick and pop big in his career? I don't know. He's always with rollers and last night he was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, here's this read. Here's this read. He just. And. But the thing that really stuck out to me is the Cavs really do legitimately now have two of the best one on one players in the world. Whether you want to say it's top 10, I legitimately think it might be top 10 in terms of Guy and then.
- [41:34]
C
And so crowd, Porter and two Jalen.
- [41:37]
D
Tyson, Dean Wade, actually. And then. No, I, yeah, Dean Wade hit it anyway. I'm not going to go down that road. They harden, if you put them out there and if you're throwing advantages, what the result of that is, Harden just is able to draw and create advantages and get off of it in a timely way. And if you're giving Donovan any kind of an advantage to work with as one of the best one on one players in the world, whereas in the past, you know, with Garland not being available or not on the court with him, whatever it is, it's a different game than if, you know, know Sam Merrill is whipping the ball. As much as I love Mount West, Luca, he's, he's not, he's not pulling the same water. And I think that that's just going to take a little bit of a load off of Donovan. And there were times I thought even in this game it was a little bumpy, like you were saying. But if they involve Donovan in the action, it just makes it harder for people to help because you've got, you know, Donovan Mitchell is in the action. You're not going to help off of him. So that makes Harden's life a little bit easier. It makes, you know, Jared Allen's life a little bit easier. I just, I'm, I'm going to be watching this curiously to see how it evolves.
- [42:40]
C
I think there are so many James Harden criticisms that are 100% valid and well, well earned and well deserved on his part. In particular, like the playoff track record is checkered at Best who he has been, especially defensively, like, take your shots, deserving of that criticism, setting up other ISO scores, like, he's always been good at that. And I don't. Like, we just pretend as if the James Harden nets weren't good and if, like, he didn't make Kevin Durant's life easier and he, for the brief time that they played together, didn't make Kyrie Irving's life easier, like, he was more than willing to just play playmaker with that group. And this is a different build where, yeah, it's not Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving, but to see Donovan Mitchell have the kind of performance he did in James Harden's debut, I think is huge. Like the, the rolling big stuff we know is going to be there making Evan Mobley's life incrementally better, we all expected. But this is also a thing he can do. Like, he's just a good passer and a good reader of offense. And that's going to include setting up Donovan Mitchell for some of the easiest looks he's frankly ever gotten as a pro.
- [43:41]
B
Yeah, I did think it was notable that when it got to winning time, when we're in crunch time, like, things did just tilt back to Mitchell in the way that it always had. And like the chemistry between the two of them seems quite good immediately. And it sounds like, based on the reporting that, like, Mitchell wanted Harden out there. And so on the one hand, I think to myself, this is very much part of the James Harden new situation flowchart where it's like, things are looking great, we're going on a playoff run. We'll see in the playoffs if he does anything different, we'll see when we get there.
- [44:11]
C
But we all just absolutely faint in frustration.
- [44:15]
B
Yes. But for now, there immediately seems to be chemistry and a natural hierarchy already established. In addition to that, I thought Keon Ellis certainly played with pep against his former team. That was bound to happen. I just feel like there are live bodies in that lineup like there haven't been before. And to that point, like, they're still scraping the barrel when it comes to, like, filling out the wing rotation like Dean Wade. Like, when does he play? Samir was there, but he's going to play in the next game. There's just so much truce. Is he going to be back in time for the stretch run? They're. They need bodies and they need verve in that lineup. And I do think Schroeder and Ellis fill that role at least. And so to bring it back to the bigger picture, Conversation. I just think if there's a window. I don't like this as a long term play giving up like the next six to seven years of Darius Garland. But right now this might be the type of win now move that threads the needle in a weird way that it hasn't in years past.
- [45:07]
D
I was going to say that I think the two teams that kind of mirror each other in this way I think is Minnesota. I don't know if we want to get into a deeper. Any kind of deeper Minnesota talk on this but I think they were both kind of like should be in the conversation have been forgotten about a little bit made moves to bolster their. Their perimeter depth and their guard depth. Granted Minnesota wanted to make a bigger move like a Harden type move. Giannis I would say we could probably all agree is a bigger than a hard move. But yeah, I think that they've sort of to speak to the Detroit part of this. I think that they. If I were Detroit I'd be watching Cleveland right now and be like. And another thing I was going to say is I would be watching them and thinking that's something that we're going to have to deal with. But another thing too is that Harden being left handed and Mitchell being right handed I think gives them some optionality on terms of the way their offense can flow which is interesting. Yeah.
- [45:54]
B
So little balance action.
- [45:56]
D
No, I just think that whenever you have a right handed passer a lot of the times you're going to try to. You're a lot of your spot up stuff is going to go unless you're ambidextrous like Luke or Jokic. Not a ton of those guys out there. And. And the fact and Harden can do to the opposite side of the floor. So when they're on the floor together I think you're going to have access in a way to flow that a lot of teams aren't going to have.
- [46:17]
B
In addition to.
- [46:19]
D
There's just like a. That sat there. I don't know what that was.
- [46:24]
B
I was just thinking of the. The left handed emporium from Ned Flanders the entire time. Was it the left Porium or something?
- [46:31]
D
The left Torium.
- [46:33]
B
Wow.
- [46:33]
D
Which is funny. I had a Simpsons thing in my notes where I was like did anybody jump tears? And I had written down here that basically anybody that jumped it in the top tiers. No. But I was going to say these teams have basically just they're vying for the right to eat. Rainer.
- [46:50]
C
Wolf.
- [46:50]
D
Wolf. What is it? Rayner? Wolf?
- [46:52]
C
Castle?
- [46:53]
D
Yeah, they're vying for the right to the honor of eating his lead. Basically, that's what I'd written down here. But, yeah, yeah.
- [47:00]
C
What a timely podcast we run.
- [47:02]
B
Remembering some Simpsons quotes, but half asked.
- [47:06]
D
Kind of, yeah, yeah, what was the name? Yeah, that's the most fun thing to say.
- [47:10]
C
We're not even the Chris Farley Show. Like, I wish we were the Chris Farley show, but we're not.
- [47:15]
B
I guess the only other team to really mention here are the Celtics. They kind of got their asses handed to them by the Knicks in this early game right before the Super Bowl. I don't know how much you read into that. I always kind of write off early games, especially in big markets, just because I figured guys are just kind of going out and the timing is just weird. I did like, Vuch's impact in Game 1 against the Heat in the Game 2. It wasn't so great, but, like, it did feel like it played out exactly how we thought, where he was dominant on the boards. I think he had 12 there. And it did really feel like he had an advantage scoring against smaller units because SPO refuses to play Khalil, where all of a sudden, like, it's a whole separate issue. But they tried to go small, and he was just a big old boy doing big boy stuff. And so I did kind of like it from that respect. Having said that, we are getting the reports that are slowing down the Jason Tatum return, and that does worry me about them kind of hitting that next gear. I did watch a Shams report where it was just like a bunch of word salad, where it was like, he still needs to get the okay from the medical staff and then also the training staff and Malika. The training staff is different than the medical staff. And it's just like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Just tell me what's happening. But it does sound like there was a report that, like, he might not be back the entire year. It seems like that has been largely debunked or at the very least been poked holes on. But things are taking slower than we expect. I think we were hoping to see him by now or maybe early March. And so the Celtics, like, momentum seems to have seized at this point. What do you guys feel about if the Celtics don't get Tatum, are they even in this race?
- [48:42]
D
Breaking news. Jason. Jason Tatum is announcing an endorsement with Kyle Schwartz. He's coming back.
- [48:50]
B
That'd be worse.
- [48:51]
C
Why do I feel like that's actually going to happen, like, two days from now? Like, we're We. We just live in such a bleak place, guys. I'm going to be honest with you. I mean, the Celtics are kind of in it as is, and, and that was true before the trades. So getting Jason Tatum back would be wonderful if he's healthy enough to play. What makes me nervous is not him delaying coming back, it's him coming back at all and potentially re injuring. Not, not just like potentially re injuring the Achilles, but any of the other, like, items up and down the like, kinetic chain that could really cause some trouble.
- [49:24]
D
So I was hoping you'd use the word kinetic chain. Well done, Mahoney.
- [49:27]
C
You simply have to do it. Take as much time as you possibly could need would be my advice to Jason Tatum. In the meantime, the Celtics are still one of the best teams in the league. Like, they're still one of the best teams in the East. I think they have every reason, in addition to the Cavs, in addition to the Pistons, to think why not us? You know, in adding Vuch. Yeah, it's not going to be a completely seamless integration. As you talked about jv, some games are going to be better for him than others, but gives them a type of player they just didn't have at all before. And so as they learn how to properly incorporate him and benefit from some of the rebounding and all the downstream effects that come from that, I just think they're going to be pretty formidable for basically anybody to bounce up against in the playoffs. And that's true. With or without Tatum, though, obviously a lot of things get easier if he's able to go.
- [50:09]
B
So if we've diagnosed the east here, the west probably stayed San Pat, like virtually up and down the top couple spots there outside of like a Hunter Tyson kind of being dumped and Jared McCain going to the Thunder, but apparently Daryl Morey was selling high on that, so perhaps the Thunder being left with the bag. Overall, do you feel any different about the title race, the top contenders, than you did four days ago?
- [50:35]
C
I feel a little different because of the wolves. And some of that is just like Minnesota making the kind of trade they needed to make, which is to get another guard, another bench player, just like have a firmer top eight, top nine for a playoff scenario. And I would assume it gives them. That gives them a version of a player they already have. Like, he and Dante DiVincenzo share a lot in terms of their DNA and what they bring on the court, but having another guy with that kind of energy, with that kind of shooting, with that kind of defense, I think really Makes them tough. And Minnesota's in an interesting place because, like, from a macro perspective, a lot of their, like, big picture indicators, like their point differential and stuff are like, pretty good, like, pretty promising as far as where they stand relative to the rest of the league. Like, their habits on the court aren't always great. And so it's like the roster is good. The habits are like, come and go, which to me says mostly if the talent is there and you trust it and I trust it, other people may feel differently. It's just like they are positioned well to be one of those teams that, like, if they lock in at the right time, could give anybody a run for their money in a playoff series. And so they're, they're close enough, they made the move and I think they, they end up taking themselves, you know, a couple percentage points up in our title pie whenever we want to do that next as a result of everything that's happened over the last week.
- [51:50]
D
Little title pie with some Alamoda sounds good to me. I think whenever we think about, you know, at the deadline and we think about an existing product like the Wolves, we think about addition is kind of what you're thinking, but in this case it's. It's addition, but we're replacing some of the sort of unrealized, aimless, trying to find answers, trying to find productivity, trying to find lineups that interface with the starting lineup to give guys breaks or to give gift. So it's not just, you know, overworking guys when, when they're adding to Sun Moo. This is just my expectation by, by removing the Dillingham, the hopes for Dillingham, as much as I root for him, and I'm going to be keeping an eye on him in Chicago, holding on to that stock, I just think that that is going to add more over time, more clarity and less aimlessness and less guessing and experimenting because I have confidence in who IO is and I, I think he's going to be productive for them. So I. It's. It's not just adding him, it's removing some of the things that weren't working. So. And I think that's going to pay dividends for them long term. It might. They're down 14, Isaiah just told us in the chat. So maybe. But. But my expectation is that they're going to work in a, in a positive direction with this.
- [52:55]
B
But I'm glad, I'm glad Isaiah kind of mentioned that because this is the Wolves.
- [52:58]
C
This is what they do.
- [52:59]
B
Microcosm. It's true. They project to A certain point, there's so much talent on that team, they ultimately always make the west finals at this point, so they'll probably just do it for a third straight year. But there's just like something just not quite right all the time. And to Rob's earlier point, Rudy Gobert is complaining about Gu not being locked in enough. And so, and he's right. I don't know.
- [53:18]
C
Very, very right.
- [53:19]
B
The door seems more open than it did before. It seems like the the Nuggets are dealing with injuries practically every week. A new one. Cam Johnson just came back, but I assume there's going to be a trade off because that's just how it's worked for them this year. The Thunder, once they get Shay back, seem like the ultimate trump card and I, I would assume if that one's not going to linger past March, then everything should be fine. But other than that, I'm just seeing open doors in a way that I hadn't before. Like even the Rockets seem like there's taking a half step back like every couple days. Like we talked about Cam Thomas possibly going to here or there. Like I almost feel like they need that if only for a shot in the arm or just some sort of distraction from the malaise of their offense than anything else.
- [54:01]
C
Well, let's talk about Houston for a minute because as far as teams that I think could look back and really regret not doing more at the deadline, they are the number one team for me. Like I just don't see a reason why if you are Houston and the Bloom has fallen off their like the Bloom has fallen off the Rose in terms of their offense for so long now. Like it's so clear that their half court offense does not work. If Stephen Adams is not grabbing every offensive rebound and giving you second and third chances to fix it, he's not. He's gonna be out for the rest of the season. They needed a guard in such a bad way. Just somebody, somebody capable, somebody who can play playoff minutes. They don't have to be a superstar. Like just somebody who can be reliable for you in terms of getting your offense into normal flowing action. They didn't do that. Despite the fact that they have a lot to trade. They have a lot to offer. And I don't know what the argument would be at this point to say Houston is going to beat the Thunder to say that Houston is going to beat even the Wolves. I think they're just there's so many other high quality teams in the west that like the Rockets pretending status quo is acceptable to me is misunderstanding where they are and probably ignoring the fact that Kevin Durant is 37 years old and having this season like you can't bet on that miracle to continue year over year after year. You have to be contending right now. And how are you contending if you're not pushing as hard as you can at these kind of marginal opportunities? That could really help you.
- [55:25]
D
You. It's not slowing down his Twitter activity. I can tell you that he's still on there fingers ablaze.
- [55:30]
C
Well, the older you get, the more online you get. Unfortunately that's. That's what I'm experiencing.
- [55:35]
D
Yeah. Yeah. Sadly. Sadly true. Yeah.
- [55:38]
B
Threads, bro.
- [55:39]
C
I'm talking more about.
- [55:41]
D
I just deleted threads actually got tired of it. I was like, I'm tired of this.
- [55:44]
C
You know, I was gonna. I was gonna call out relatives in my life, but I'm gonna let them skate. You know, I didn't put on a blast.
- [55:52]
D
That'd be a first.
- [55:53]
B
Take that, homie.
- [55:55]
D
Yeah, Aunt Mahomey.
- [55:56]
B
I like it.
- [55:58]
D
I was going to say. Yeah. I mean throwing. Throwing Cam into to you know, the reports of unrest among their teams and you know, Kevin Durant teams have. He's probably going to come after me now for saying this, but throwing Cam Thomas and that's kind of the question is what do you do at this point? Do they. Is there any kind of last ditch chance because we were talking about the buyout market is just garbage. I mean Heywood Highsmith, I'm a fan of him. Will he be healthy? I don't know. Is he the right kind of answer? I think you need somebody that adds to bring that word back optionality through dynamic creator skill set. I don't know. There just aren't options out there for that right now. I mean Cam seems like it's possible, but it seems very risky.
- [56:39]
B
I don't know how I got here, but I've ultimately because of what we've been talking about kind of like what the Lakers did. Not only because it did seem like they understood that their whole future lies ahead with Luca and this new front office where they're apparently going to hire 150 people and just be the new look Dodgers basically. But I do like getting in a shooter to almost enhance your best asset which is that their offense, when all those three guys are there, when Reeves and Luca and LeBron are playing together could be pretty blistering. I don't think much about them in terms of like their playoff future. If they get passed around. I would still be surprised but it does feel like the door is a jar just a little bit so that they could really just slug someone in the mouth that like perhaps has these injuries or is like the Rockets where they're just a little bit more sluggish than they should be going into this matchup and they just drop like 125 a night and it's just like you got to keep up with that. That's at the very least feels like a nice little swing here. When it does feel like these marginal things might matter more in matchups and matchups matter more in the the west.
- [57:38]
C
Playoffs, they certainly do. I125 might not be enough. And like, look, the Lakers roster part of the problem, it's not that they don't have good players in this way or that it's that they don't have enough balance in terms of how those players interact. And they certainly have a lot of like defense only guys and offense only guys. And Luke Canard certainly fits that latter category. The idea that the Lakers of all teams who just are starving for point of attack defense would now bring in like Luke Kennard to add to and compound all of their problems. Problems. It's just who they are right now. And I wasn't expecting them to like pull a rabbit out of the hat and suddenly fix all of the fundamental flaws in their roster. Like getting Luke Canard is, is not, not a bad idea. Like getting more shooters again to keep everything honest, to lean into your strengths as a team. I'm for it. Does it materially change who the Lakers are in the sense of this playoff race? Probably not. But maybe to your point, Justin does make them marginally more interesting.
- [58:34]
D
Well, I think. And we don't, we don't need to like circle back and sort of like contradict things that we've said recently or that I have at least is just that this is a unique situation where it's not. I don't think it's reasonable for anybody to judge the Lakers on the timeline they're on because this is a bizarre, A bizarre timeline that they didn't expect to be on. That it's the result of getting a bizarre opportunity to get a great player in a stupid ass trade that has had crazy ripple effects across the league. So it's like they made a marginal move there. That's good. I thought it was more interesting from I was thinking about Atlanta side of this when I was recapping and going back through the trades. I was like, Atlanta actually kind of played this pretty well in the way that they basically just kind of spun around and we're in the same place with adding Buddy heel in for, I don't know, healed versus canard, whatever, how you feel about that. But they get off a depreciating asset like Porzingis. Bring in somebody like Kuminga who's never played in any other, you know, context other than the warriors, and he could appreciate into something that they could use. So I was just kind of thinking about that. I know I just made this a Hawks conversation, but every conversation is secretly.
- [59:40]
C
A Hawks conversation if you try hard enough.
- [59:42]
D
But the Lakers, I think we just need to be consistent with the timeline aspect of this instead of getting wrapped up into, like, can they become a contender at the deadline?
- [59:50]
B
Which the answer is no, I think. I think the fact that they lowered the stakes by not swinging for something so big almost opens the door for something fun to happen, which you wouldn't expect considering A team with LeBron James toward the end of his career. In Luka, Lu looking to win now as much as possible, would be in that position now. They feel like the fun wild card on the table in the west, and that's a good position to be in because if they win around, it's found money.
- [60:14]
C
It's very true. I. There definitely is a Runway for them to do something. And as you're saying, just like, taking some of the air out of the balloon and just like, allowing it this season to be what it is, I do think is great for everybody involved. I agree with what you're saying, Kyle, about, like, the dramatic shift in the trajectory of their team since getting Luka does take time to acclimate to. I think my expiration on that line of thinking is the end of this season. So, like, they had the chunk after getting Luca last year. They have this full season to try to slowly turn this, like, cruise ship of an organization to suit Luca's needs and first and foremost. And we'll see what happens with LeBron in the summer if he still.
- [60:54]
D
That's it. I mean, what you're. What you're talking about is LeBron. I mean, what's going to happen with LeBron?
- [60:59]
C
So, like, I'm down to have this conversation now. I'm fully aligned with you. We just can't be doing this next year, like, still making the same excuse next year. So so long as they do the stuff in the summer that they need to do, I think it's more than fair to give them some clearance on it now.
- [61:13]
D
Don't assume my future excuses, Rob.
- [61:16]
B
They Also don't have the opportunity to because Reeves will presumably be coming back on a full max and at that point you're restricted to of what you could do. I doubt it's a Giannis move, but honestly, I think it might not be in their worst interest to bring back Reeves and fill out a defense and just go from there. I think they could still be a pretty good team since we're circling teams that didn't do something that we're kind of secretly a little disappointed in. The Sixers, every time I watch them, I'm just marveled at like, how much of a monster Joel Embiid still is. I know he's probably never going to be the version that we hope hope he will be or was before, but he's putting up 30 on a night practically at this point. And so I do wonder, like, it is this disappointment that they didn't turn the stuff that they got from McCain into something else. It seems like more just ended up with a sideswipe and another case of what could have been. Does feel like that hole that Paul George has left over the next 20 plus games here, if they were able to fill that they could be spicy enough that again, like the Lakers, if things just happen to roll their way, if indeed, when we're least expecting it is actually healthy for a playoff series. Like, who has the counter to that in the East? Like, does anybody have an Embiid stopper just on hand?
- [62:30]
C
No, I don't think you're just going to scrounge one of those up as, as he demonstrates on a nightly basis. But you know, as we kind of tear out the East, I think whatever you determine the line is like, where that line is between the line, the teams above this line are clearly contending and the teams below this line, like, are just missing something really critical. To me, the Sixers are below that line, like, and that's where you would have loved to see even just some depth plays, even just some ways to round out their rotation to, to make it like a little more manageable. Yeah, to survive Paul George's suspension, as you said, Justin. But also when he comes back, to be able to benefit from him with like, just like a smidge more front court depth. I really, I don't think it really would have taken a lot. And yet that it's also hard to pinpoint that exact player. Like, there just aren't a lot of like really good forwards floating in the ether right now. And the ones that are we just talk ourselves to death about. Like Trey Murphy or, or Larry Markin, for example, who now might just be nailed down in Utah. And so who is it that we were expecting them to get? Who was it that was going to change their world over the back part of this season? I, I think it maybe it's fair to say that that guy just wasn't out there.
- [63:36]
D
Indeed. Kind of, of kind of original Star wars trilogy. Darth Vader. Right. He can't really move pretty stiff. Still got game though in the little ways and the little trick. The Force is still strong with him. You know, you still got really got to contend with him. That'd be my comp. He's not, you know, 2013 Embiid. A little bit more of. Of Anakin energy.
- [63:57]
C
Is the pump fake. The, the Embiid pump fake. Is that the Force choke?
- [64:01]
D
I would say so, yeah. I think so. Yeah.
- [64:04]
B
Shades up of Darth Maul.
- [64:06]
C
No, absolutely no Darth. Now VJ Edgecomb, he might have some Darth Maul in him, you know, some Ray Parker Jr.
- [64:12]
B
In there.
- [64:12]
D
Yeah. But yeah, that'd be my comp for Embiid. OG Trilogy Vader. Yeah.
- [64:19]
B
Anything else that caught your eyes over the past couple days? Post deadline? I have a couple like reconsiderations that I've been undergoing. As I've thought too hard about what we've already said about the deadline. I have started to talk myself more into the Wizards. If you think about what they did with Anthony Davis more as like a way station, as a rehab facility in the same way that the Thunder did with Chris Paul. I don't know if this is their intent, but it kind of sounds like they're signaling toward that. If they're not going to sign him to an extension that our, our plan is not to move forward with an Embiid. It's actually to do what we. We did with some of these other guys that we've brought and tried to bring back value in him by letting his contract expire a little bit, let him show a little bit more in a low stakes environment and then all of a sudden maybe we turn too bad first into one good first. I think of it more now like that and if that is the case, it's not the worst thing in the world. And you do have to consider that the front office, Winger and Dawkins both come from the Thunder. So it wouldn't surprise me if they're thinking in this term. If it's not, then I still have questions. But if it is that, then it makes more sense to me.
- [65:30]
C
Yeah, I'm cool. With it as not just like a waystation, but any kind of like temporary step, you know. Yeah. Positive direction in terms of how many games the Wizards win. But also like they just didn't give up anything that's going to change their future. And the only way they do that is by committing a lot of money to Anthony Davis. And so, yeah, so long as they avoid that outcome, I think think they would be better for it. And frankly, they're in a position too where even if they did, I'm just more forgiving of it than Dallas because Dallas was so like salary strapped already that he was compounding problems with potentially getting a new deal. So it's all relative. And they just gave up so little for Davis. They didn't change anything about the trajectory of their team. And Anthony Davis is really good when he plays. So I just, I have a hard time getting upset about any element of the general state of the Wizards right now.
- [66:16]
B
Yeah.
- [66:16]
D
And I, and I. I subscribe too to the thinking that I've heard others say about that this is a team that it is a business like we were talking about. The Wizards have not been good for a long time. And adding Anthony Davis and extending it to Trey Young, I mean that's. Those are two famous interesting basketball fans. And AD doesn't have as many stands. There are still Trey stands out there that'll that have jerseys and our believers fewer and fewer by the day, I feel like. But I think that's another part of it too. Just like if you can get Anthony Davis for that price price. Why not?
- [66:45]
C
Why not?
- [66:45]
D
For all those other reasons stated too.
- [66:47]
C
Yeah.
- [66:47]
B
Ted Leonsa seems super jacked about meeting Anthony Davis. Gave him the handshake into the hug, into the follow up handshake. It's like that's several handshakes, sir. Like, he seems pretty pumped to have an actual player that he's heard of before.
- [67:00]
C
He does. But then again, he also tried to christen Andre Blush as part of a big three at one point. So like, you know, we take people's judgment on face value sometimes.
- [67:10]
B
He was a problem. Still is in the Philippines. I mean, literally just fighting people. The other one I was thinking back on is I like the Pacers move for Zubat a little bit less than I did at the time. Did I say Zubot like I was gonna say?
- [67:27]
D
Well, you're. I can't try. Can't follow your pronunciation.
- [67:30]
B
Don't worry about this.
- [67:31]
C
The variety of Justin pronunciations of. Let's just be very clear about it. It ait Zubots is wild. Like, I think I've heard you pronounce his last name eight different ways over the course of the past month.
- [67:42]
D
You're like the manager from rookie of the year who can't say Henry's name. Right, Right. Yeah.
- [67:49]
B
I think it just autocorrects almost like document. That's what I'm hoping for because I've lost all linguistic precision. I guess it's all good. Got that out though. You hear that? That was nice. I just find myself defaulting to more broad sort of mantras when it comes to transactions nowadays than I did before. And I do think putting a lot of hope on one individual player to circle back to our initial conversation where you just can't bet on anyone to be healthy. It does feel a little bit too soon to be making that sort of move. When I think that Zubotch. Zubotch. Right. We're right.
- [68:27]
C
Zubots, bots, whatever.
- [68:32]
B
I think he, I think he upgrades them. I don't know if he pushes them over the top. And so I would have probably preferred more of the flexibility of a draft pick and other. And like the potential for something else. Especially because we don't know what's going to happen this off season. It feels like it's going to get pretty wild. So I still understand it. I think they could be a good team with him. I think the potential for Zubots plus a draft pick is pretty nice.
- [68:55]
C
Nice.
- [68:55]
B
But I don't want to bet on just one player anymore. I actually want optionality.
- [68:58]
C
Yeah. I mean they're not betting on just one player. They're betting on the fact that they already have a championship core. Getting Halliburton back, getting Obi Toppin back, also getting. If it's a Zubots in the mix who is just like a flat out better and more balanced player than Miles Turner was and what that can do for their team. So like, I think it is a kind of a multi pronged approach. And I will say in Zubots's credit, if you are going to bet on one guy, I would say he's been about as healthy over the last five or six years as any center in the league. And it's tough to bet on seven footers to stay that way perpetually. But he seems to be. Be a pretty sturdy sort as these things go.
- [69:34]
D
Yeah, I think you nailed it. I mean that's the, that's the kicker for me is the Miles. Thing of it is that they're gonna, they're gonna add him to something and, and a lot of it and he's gonna back to the replacing idea instead of just addition. Miles had so many hypothetical things that he did that would just penalize you in critical moments that you're just not gonna have with Zubots. Like, I do this, I'm good at this. I don't err from that at all. Like, and, and I think his processing ability is going to match really, really well with Halliburton. I feel good about it. So. And also if they, as we talked about, if they add whatever else they add to just be icing on the cake to play with Zubots in the draft. It's going to be a good marriage. I think personally.
- [70:13]
B
No, I, I agree with what you guys are saying. It's not so much that I think it's a bad fit. If anything, I think it's going to be a great fit if only. I worry that it's just boxing you into that being. Being the only move that you could probably make there. So yeah, we'll see. Any other sort of second guesses that you guys had post deadline?
- [70:29]
C
I have one to bring up in part because of a little newsy hook and that's Kobe White to the Hornets, who as we learned, I mean he's been dealing with calf stuff all season, but when he underwent his physical, that calf stuff is apparently so bad he's going to have to continue to miss time. The Bulls just decided like to not really tell anybody about this. And so what was. Because the three second round picks they were getting for Kobe White is now just two second round picks. Which means Charlotte in the grand accounting of some of their moves, flipped Collin Sexton, Usman Jang and basically net neutral picks because they took in two second rounders by taking on Tyus Jones's deal. And they got Kobe wide, Malachi Branham. So good for Charlotte. Chicago perpetually. What are you doing? Arturis Carnesevis is out in front saying we don't want to be in the middle of the league anymore. We are prioritizing our flexibility as a franchise. I would love that. Where's this guy been for the last five years? Would be my question. Follow up if the outcome of your flexibility is paying Anthony Simons or Colin Sexton what you were going to pay Kobe White or IO to Sumnu. I don't really understand where that flexibility has taken you. So I look forward to revisiting in the summer exactly what the Bulls have done or not done and holding the executives to account as far as what they said this was all about, about.
- [71:45]
D
The 39 win Bulls a year, a year from now, Is that where we expect to be?
- [71:49]
C
Where else would they be?
- [71:51]
B
The flowchart I just wouldn't even bring up. Don't even like try to come up with one because the amount of seconds going here versus there and just like guys who are approximately the same version of the same guy just kind of overlaps a lot. But I will give them credit for this as the Jazz were tanking their fourth quarter just to ensure that they get a draft pick. Yep, Bulls out there playing all their guys. Yaboo. Just barreling up and down the floor, letting it fly. They still lost that game.
- [72:19]
C
One could argue playing Yabu is a tanking measure this season, unfortunately, and that pains me personally to say, but Justin, I have. I have to say you taking this particular anti tanking bent at this moment in time strikes me as very odd because the singular reason why your Portland Trailblazers are probably going to be in the NBA playoffs or at least in the play in is because. Because literally who is going to compete with them at this point?
- [72:43]
B
You say that, but I do wonder if the Clippers get Darius Garland back, if all of a sudden they're a little bit spicier than perhaps projected. I think Ben Matheran has another kind of gear to him too, so we'll see. But you're right, the path is kind of laid out for them, especially if Steph ends up still hurt that they make the actual big boy playoffs.
- [73:01]
C
Well, yeah, as far as the play in, the answer is why not both? I think they're. That you would have to pry either of those teams out at this point just because everyone below them has no incentive to win whatsoever.
- [73:11]
B
Five teams in the west just do not give a shit. Just to underline that again and we'll.
- [73:16]
C
Give progressively less of a shit as we go.
- [73:20]
B
But yeah, get those Blazers playoff tickets now, baby. Just letting it fly.
- [73:27]
C
He checked. Lighten it up.
- [73:28]
B
I mean, I wanted to lead with that, but nobody would let me.
- [73:33]
C
You didn't even float it.
- [73:35]
B
Because I knew it would be. No, he did look good.
- [73:39]
D
It.
- [73:39]
C
Yeah.
- [73:40]
D
Good for him. Glad.
- [73:42]
B
Yeah. We're back. Anything else you guys have before the Super Bowl? You guys. You guys making some. Some like vegetable platters or anything? Got. Got some carrots and some crudite. Yeah.
- [73:57]
C
I gotta say I'm not. I'm not gonna watch it. I gotta be honest with you guys. I.
- [74:01]
B
What's wrong with you, Un American?
- [74:02]
C
I don't care about football. You know, I'm here. I'm here with you. Sickos talking about the ethics of the Utah Jazz. This is who I am.
- [74:10]
B
All right.
- [74:11]
C
I'm willing to wear that. I don't know why you're running.
- [74:13]
B
You want it?
- [74:13]
D
You won't at least go second screen from your. From your Kid Rock performance to have.
- [74:17]
C
The football game on.
- [74:19]
B
You know what?
- [74:20]
C
I might actually check out Bad Bunny. My move is usually to go to what is usually a very popular restaurant during the super bowl, so I might be doing that tonight. Lovely bit of counter programming, but. But, yeah, I can't say I'm going to be tuning in.
- [74:33]
D
Galaxy Brain Mahoney. Yeah.
- [74:35]
B
Are you going to get a Bad Bunny T shirt to go along with your other band collection?
- [74:39]
C
I don't see that. Feels like a very different vibe.
- [74:43]
B
It could be your vibe. What if all of a sudden, you just got into reggaeton and you're just that guy?
- [74:47]
D
Yeah, man.
- [74:48]
C
I think that's a great move for me. As this year goes on is like, by the end of 2026, I'm going to be full on reggaeton. And so it's like progressively over the course of the year, we're going to slip further and further into it. And I hope you guys will support me on my journey.
- [75:01]
D
I support Reggae Rob all day long. Yeah.
- [75:04]
B
Shows up with Cornrows just looking like Jared Leto. I don't think Panic Room.
- [75:08]
D
No, no.
- [75:10]
C
Don't associate me with Jared Leto in literally any way, please.
- [75:13]
B
All right, why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Wednesday as usual. Talk to you.
- [75:26]
D
Sam.