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- [00:01]
A
Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster, Zero Ultra. That's the OG it kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing. But Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise, and Vice Guava. And they all bring the Monster Energy punch.
- [00:19]
B
So if you've been living in the
- [00:20]
A
White can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single one is Zero Sugar Tap the banner to learn more. Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varier. And joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle Mann. What a glorious Thursday it is to talk about some shit teams in the NBA.
- [00:57]
B
I do feel like you step up for these moments, Justin. Just when we get to peer into the void, really examine our own inner darkness, but also the darkness in the league. Like, this is where you shine more than anyone.
- [01:08]
A
That's right. We're doing the no Power rankings. You've heard about it probably on the street, probably on TikTok. All the kids are talking about it. I love Googling the. The topic that we're doing or putting it into my search bar on Gmail, because then I get to see how long we've been doing this. Yeah, at least since 2021. My friends. This is the fifth annual no power rankings. A half decade of ranking.
- [01:35]
B
Well, Kyle, this is your maiden journey with us. Doing the no Power rankings. How. How have you felt really descending into the true madness of the NBA.
- [01:44]
C
I kind of feel like. I don't know, I feel like Jabari Smith when he, like, talked about how great it felt to get on the floor with LeBron. Or, you know, maybe I'm like Christian Laitner with the Dream Team. I kind of just feel like I'm on the floor and I'm looking around and I'm like, wow, that just. That's Rob. That's Justin. Well, look at me. I'm in this, like, great event that I've always dreamed of. So I'm pinching myself. I'm gonna try to just keep up and move the ball. That's just how I'm feeling. I'm trying to just not. Not sink. I'm trying to swim.
- [02:13]
A
We think about it more as like a successful prestige TV show where it's like the Sopranos all of a sudden get a new big bad. Kyle, that's you.
- [02:21]
B
You're.
- [02:21]
A
You're just like. You're joining in and you just have a different energy in order to things up.
- [02:27]
C
Can I be feature Lamana? That's what. That was my favorite for a season. Right? The guy who stepped on the dude's arm and broke his. Rob just shook his head. He's not too.
- [02:34]
A
That's.
- [02:35]
C
He's. I just spoiled something really great for a graphic for you. Good luck.
- [02:38]
B
I assure you, the name Feach Lamana will not stay in my brain long enough to actually spoil us. I think you're in the clear right now.
- [02:45]
C
That's a good. Your problem. That's not my problem.
- [02:48]
A
Yeah. All right. So no power rankings. If you listen to the podcast, you probably know how this goes. We are ranking the five worst situations in the league, five worst organizational situations going forward from this point forward. Any, like, quibbles or anything? Rob, I feel like you. You like to throw in a little wrench here now and then.
- [03:07]
B
Well, thank you. I. I appreciate. I appreciate you seeing me for the Quibbler. I am. I don't have any wrenches to throw, but I will say I did find the number five spot this year. Harder to place than most. I thought there was like a clear four teams that I. I knew were going to be represented on this list. And then there's kind of a grab bag of honestly, like no one is feeling great in that next group up, but they all have kind of something going for them and sifting through to figure out what you valued the least, I found to be an interesting exercise, but also kind of an exhausting one.
- [03:39]
C
The Quibbler sounds like the lamest Batman villain possible. He just sort of like, argues little details with Batman and delays him. I was going to say, I know we all, we all like branding. I know you name things and we, we, you know, we try to slap a marketable thing on things that as they go out the door. What about the powerless rankings? Would that work? Well, what do we think about that? Are we. Are we just so far in. I mean, it's only year five.
- [04:03]
A
You could, you could change Nike to like Nuki or something. I mean.
- [04:07]
C
Yeah, that's one to one. You're right.
- [04:10]
B
You were doing so well, Kyle. You know, you were saying all the right things out of the gate and now you're trying to. With our bit and we don't appreciate it.
- [04:18]
C
I'm like that Foo Fighters drummer that got ejected after a year. I had it going so good. Oh, yeah.
- [04:23]
A
So it is the no power rankings. It's the strongest brand out there this way that nobody could steal this bit. Because I know that happens in NBA podcasting these days. I'm seeing you out there. I notice what's going on out there in the world. We've been doing this spot for so long. I know what you're doing. Just saying names. No, at the very least, you could change the name of your bit if you're gonna take from the world renowned group chat Prodcast. I'm just. I'm just gonna say that.
- [04:54]
B
Okay. Relax, dad.
- [04:55]
A
All right. All right. So we're gonna go five to one, right? Rob, do you want to start? Since you were saying five was a difficult spot for you.
- [05:03]
B
Yeah, I ended up going with the Clippers at number five.
- [05:07]
A
I actually have the same thing.
- [05:08]
B
Yeah. I mean, they've got one more season of Kawhi and then what? And that's assuming they even do have one more season of quiet. Maybe he gets traded in the off season. Who knows what direction this team ends up going in. I just look around right now and in. In a way, they've jump started the next version of their team by getting Darius Garland in the door. An all star who could grow with the Clippers for years to come, but he has his own lengthy injury history. And so the best case version of Clippers, I want to say 2.0, but I guess it's like 8.0, 9.0 at this point, is Darius Garland Nederhauser, who we were just all saying, we really have enjoyed watching him this season and are eager to see where he grows. And I guess, like, the number five pick in the draft would be the best case scenario for the protections that the Pacers have. Have layered on that thing. And it's like all of that is okay, but there's a lot more questions than answers, and that's before we even get into whatever penalty may be coming their way because of the aspiration mess.
- [06:06]
C
I had them at five as well. I had it. Yeah, I know. Hive mind, right?
- [06:12]
B
Yeah.
- [06:12]
C
I was kind of going through criteria because this is sort of an inverted version of the young core rankings. Not to, you know, scrutinize the bit any further than I have to, but I was gonna.
- [06:24]
B
The number of bits we have, they're secretly just the opposite of other bits we have.
- [06:28]
A
How about don't you guys come up
- [06:29]
B
with a fucking bit?
- [06:30]
A
You know, it's easy to quibble, but it's harder to create. I'll say that.
- [06:35]
C
Turns out I'm the quibbler.
- [06:37]
A
Wow.
- [06:37]
C
I just kind of walked right into that one. No. Yeah, I had. I had like a foursome of criteria that I was thinking of when I was doing this. You know, draft capital and flexibility, young assets to either keep or flip to whoever else. Current age of roster, desirability of destination. So la obviously really high in terms of like them being able to make something work on that front. This is the third oldest roster in the NBA. Granted, you can look at the contracts and argue, argue your way out of that in terms of the things that are going out the door. There's some tough ones between the James Harden deal and the Paul George deal. That is, they're almost out on. But hopefully the, the Pacers pick can kind of compensate for some of that. 2028 first to Philadelphia and then a 2029 first to Philadelphia. I guess a lot of this does kind of hinge on. Go ahead, Rob.
- [07:26]
B
I was gonna say, not only that, I mean, they don't have any of their firsts until 2030. And so like the, the. The sum total of all that I think is it's difficult to all of a sudden steer this ship in a different direction.
- [07:38]
A
Yeah.
- [07:39]
C
Yeah.
- [07:39]
A
The one sort of counter I was thinking about with the Clippers would be the market muscle that they have and the fact that they had even before the Kwai situation or perhaps anticipating the Kawaii situation. They do have cap space to work with going forward, I think as early as next offseason, this upcoming offseason, but probably more likely after that in 2027. I just don't know how much it's mattered that much for the Clippers. I guess it did to a certain extent with Kawhi because he did want to come home. But on the other hand, it seemed like there was a lot of other factors at play of why he would sign with the Clippers. I'm not ruling it out entirely because they also have turned the page since the, like the, the. The Sterling Stench era. And so perhaps they might be more of a player in that aspect, especially if, like, Luca already has the Lakers locked down for the next half decade. Like maybe Donovan Mitchell or something down the road would be interested in that. But even free agency like you look at next year, even 2027, really aren't a lot of guys. So I don't know how much of an advantage that is at this point.
- [08:38]
C
Come rejoin Darius Garland. I doubt that one will happen. I don't know.
- [08:41]
A
That's true. Yes.
- [08:44]
B
I think the Garland part of this too, is, is obviously worth watching, is a huge part of this conversation. And even as a Garland booster myself, like, I love the way he plays. I love what he brings to a team. There's just no real evidence that he's the kind of star who really like, lifts up a whole group along with him like he's very talented, he's a good playmaker, obviously the all star track record, but he hasn't exactly met the burden of proof for carrying an entire rebuild on his shoulders. And so they're very dependent on whatever their future pick situation ends up being if that, if that Indiana pick conveys this year, you know, the one distantly down the line that they could flip and include in another trade. They just have to make a lot happen to get really back into the mix in a meaningful way. And I say that in part just because literally, who knows what's going to happen with Kawhi tomorrow, much less next season, much less anything beyond that.
- [09:33]
A
I think it's telling that the only thing things that they really have going forward, like if we're looking two to three years down the road, are things that they've acquired within the past year, which is Garland Matheran at the deadline and Niederhauser, who they got in the draft. That should be telling about how everything that came before them was very much sunk cost in order to build the Kawhi and Paul George team. So I'm not surprised you guys ended up at 5. I'm surprised we all ended up, I know 5 with the Clippers, but Kyle, do you want to go with your number four team?
- [10:03]
C
I had the Golden State warriors as my fourth.
- [10:06]
B
Okay.
- [10:07]
C
There's some hint, there's, there's some big hinges on this one. So oldest roster in the league at 29 years old. 28. 9 years old, average age. They have some in terms of their young assets going forward, things to look forward to, build around, flip to other people. But Jimski, who we had for a time hope that he could evolve into maybe something a little more than a second side, you know, score. Moses Moody has been a little more productive in a slightly increased role. Whether that's, you know, crisis driven opportunity, I don't know. We'll see. But not a drink stir. He's been a really good catch and shoot guy this year. I don't really feel like scrutinizing Quinton Post and his value in that sense. And then I, I think the big kind of hinging thing that's, that would scare the out of me if I were the, the warriors or a Warriors fan, is the eagerness, which it seems like the eagerness is there to sort of like make this really, really old roster have one good old college try and maximize what we have left of, of Steph. Because those, those picks that we've talked about are just sitting there. Those early 2000-30s picks, which could be in the wilderness and they could end up being our ticket out of here. The question, I guess, is, do you just kind of let the patient die on the table and not give them any more meds? Because we. We only got a short supply. Maybe just let them age out naturally and gracefully. That's what would scare me if I'm a Warriors fan. So I had them at 4.
- [11:31]
A
Can I just say that I love this pick because I didn't consider them in part because they have the picks and they still have Steph Curry. But this exercise has slowly just become a ranking of the, like, the four worst teams in the league, plus me making the case for someone and Rob being like, no, they have a superstar. Well. And it becomes really contentious and tough to listen to. And so, like, you're selling yourself short as the feature. You're definitely Blondo. At. At worst, I would say Bundo.
- [11:58]
C
Yeah. Wait, which.
- [11:59]
B
Curious.
- [12:00]
C
I'm blanking on the name. Who's Fondano?
- [12:03]
A
It's. It's. What's his name? It's. It's our boy from Fargo.
- [12:05]
B
Our boy from far. I have no idea who you're talking there. There's so many boys from Fargo.
- [12:10]
C
Joey. Joey Pants. Is that his name?
- [12:12]
A
No, it's Bush.
- [12:13]
C
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a good one. That was a good one. Yeah, I'm a lot like busim. I'm trying to do the right thing, and then I just, at the last second fall prey to my vices or whatever it is, and. Wrong place, wrong time. No, I mean, yeah. I mean, right now there's. There is a short term hope, however strong you think it is. I don't think it's particularly strong anymore because the core pieces, the core binary star of Steph and Draymond Steph is starting to carry a lot more weight of that. It's just worrisome.
- [12:42]
A
I don't.
- [12:43]
C
I don't really see a ticket out of this. I kind of. I. I think it could be competitive and interesting at best. Do you really want to trade off? You know, your.
- [12:49]
B
Your.
- [12:50]
C
Your flexibility, that's just a little. A little ways away. That's what kind of makes me put them here. I don't know if you guys think that's extreme or not.
- [12:57]
B
I think it's a totally fair pick. I just can't bring myself to do it so long as Steph has a heartbeat. And that. That might be a personal failing on my part, but, like, he does do so much to elevate the players around him, even when those players are Pat Spencer and Guy Santos, that if you give him any modicum of a reasonable roster over the next two seasons, that's like, I agree with you, the ceiling is pretty limiting. I don't see them really contending with the Thunder or the best versions of the Nuggets or, you know, the Rockets if they take a step forward in coming seasons. They just don't really have that much firepower at their disposal. But they're interesting enough to make plays and they're interesting enough to be in the mix for someone like LeBron next season in the mix for some really compelling, you know, free agents or trade candidates. I just think the next couple of years will be good enough to maybe save them just off this list. But you're right if you, if you want to look long term for the warriors, as we're doing for this exercise, the post death era is going to be a rude awakening in so many different ways. And I think organizations like this have to have that moment of, of the slow realization of how much they have been taking a superstar's gifts or appeal or gravitational pull for granted in basically every respect of their organization. Like Steph has been the warriors for so long. I don't know that anyone who works there really knows how to be the warriors without Stephen.
- [14:18]
A
Oh, certainly not Draymond. I do wonder as well about the draft track records, especially for established front offices like Golden State. I know that Dunleavy's just been there in the head role for a short amount of time after taking over for Myers, but like there's enough to suggest that we kind of get an idea of like what they're targeting, whatnot, and if anything, they've tried to reach for star level talent, especially with Kaminga and Wiseman, in order to develop this sort of second chapter onto the the dynasty and failed. And so like, if you're thinking, well post Steph, if they keep the picks, they could perhaps just like build something new. I don't know, because if anything they've shown that they actually can't get those guys and the thing that they've been best at are finding guys in the 30 who fit Steve Kerr's sort of MO. I think this exercise ultimately becomes, though, about the outs an organization has, and I do wonder if Steph, for instance, is able to lure a younger star. I think Giannis would be the first example, although they didn't do a of attracting him this trade deadline. But at the very least, if they get some guy in their like late 20s as opposed to a 35 year old, even a LeBron in the 40s, like, could there be a way to carry into the next era just by the handoff there, by turning those picks into the next star? That gave me pause and that's probably why I didn't consider them.
- [15:37]
B
Yeah. I think especially the Giannis possibility, like the fact that it's even on the board for them as something that could happen and they're still in that race as much as anybody, it does give them not just an out, but such a dramatic way to shift directions that some of these other, like, less fortunate, more maligned franchises just don't have because they don't have a step.
- [15:57]
A
Yeah.
- [15:57]
C
If the 20, 30 stuff gets flipped for what you're talking about, Justin, and not necessarily a, like, let's keep the patient alive move, like, yeah, that's, that's a more positive outcome. And I, I definitely was looking at this, looking at this short term thing as like, yeah, it could be good, but was really kind of looking at that, you know, maybe three or four years from now as opposed to one or two, because the next one to two years could be fun. It's very on the board. Like you all were saying, they could do something. Giannis just feels pretty unlikely. Right. Based on what we've seen. Unless that was a total bluff and just smoke screen, whatever it might be. Yeah.
- [16:29]
B
Who even knows at this point?
- [16:31]
A
Yeah. Rob, do you want to do your number four?
- [16:34]
B
Yeah, I end up with the Pelicans at number four.
- [16:37]
A
Okay.
- [16:38]
B
I.
- [16:38]
A
That's slow.
- [16:40]
B
Well, I mean, they have a lot of talent and I think that's like,
- [16:43]
A
if anything, a lot of talent.
- [16:44]
B
I mean, that is part of the problem with them. They have so much that I, I can't put them too high, I think, any higher than this. I also don't trust them to do basically anything right at this point, and especially now, now that we've entered an era where they traded their first round pick next year for Derek Queen. We've already talked about that a lot. Litigated it to death. Seem like a good decision at the time. Certainly not one now is this.
- [17:09]
C
When did this happen?
- [17:10]
B
I didn't know this. It's news to us all.
- [17:13]
C
Yeah.
- [17:13]
B
And now, now they have moved Derek Queen, the guy they gave up the first round pick for, to the bench so that they can start DeAndre Jordan because. What.
- [17:23]
A
How's that going?
- [17:25]
B
Guess What? There's still 10 games back in the play in race, so I really don't understand anything that's happening. There presumably anything that will happen there. But they do at least have some guys and so they're not the worst team in by situation in the league because when they do decide to start trading people, I think they'll be able to get some things back. Will that ever happen? Will it happen on the timeline that actually maximizes those players value? I. I really am doubtful at this point, but at least they have the guys to begin with.
- [17:52]
A
So the Queen pick as you mentioned everyone knows about but as I was rummaging through all of the pick protections and the least favorables and like this guy, this team gets this. If this happens, if like the sun comes out on a Sunday in January, then this happens. The just like the the flipping of picks is just a complete and utter mess. But having said that, so 2026 already a bad spot to be in for picks if you're the Pelicans. 2027 as a result of the Dejounte Murray trade, they had the option to get the most favorable of of the New Orleans and the Milwaukee picks. So they would have two picks. Essentially they basically have the right to the Bucks pick. Unfortunately they traded the right to the least favorable of those picks to Atlanta again in a separate trade in order to get Murray who thankfully is finally back here. But I don't think he's going to be much of anything in his New Orleans era. But they would have had the rights to New Orleans and the Bucks pick, which means like they would have had two of the most promising picks perhaps in the league next year, especially if Giannis goes somewhere else in the offseason. And so this isn't as bad as outright trading what will certainly be like a top five pick in this upcoming draft. This is still pretty bad. Oh it's real window where they could have completely just re energized their franchise and they kind of gave it all away for a Murray Queen in Jeremiah Fears. None of whom I think really has all NBA level ceiling. So good stuff.
- [19:18]
C
Murray is just like a siren song for so many GMs that I will never understand. Like I people just do foolish things for him. I was trying to think of like I don't know like Pete Courtney Love. I'm trying to think of like people who have like throw really messed their lives up because they just couldn't get this one person out of their head. What is it with Deontay Murray? Is it just the physical tools? People are like oh he's lanky, got some ball skills. It's just never really been I know past The Spurs. Right. I like, I'm trying to figure out why that this keeps happening.
- [19:46]
B
I think the players that really get under GM skin in that way are the ones who have shown every component skill along the way, but never altogether. And so it's the ultimate, like we can fix him, just bring him here and he will be a great defender and a great playmaker and the range is going to work. And the three point shooting that he showed for like three weeks in this one season will definitely pan out for us. And like Deante Murray is that guy. Like it's first of all, let's say legitimately great to see him back on the court after this Achilles injury. I really hope at some point next season he starts to look a little bit more like himself. Like this is a long road back to playing. Like Dejounte Murray is used to playing, but even then, like he, he is not going to be dictating the future of the Pelicans. Like that's just. That can't be this team's timeline, that can't be their focus. But he's been made such a priority almost by the structure of the team that I don't know how you avoid it.
- [20:39]
A
Yeah, that's one of the things that really perplexed me about the way that Dumars just came in and just started to completely flip the script. Despite the fact that they had some promise still left on the roster. It's almost as if he started with the blank slate. Despite the fact that a lot of the guys still there still were young enough in order to build something. Or at the very least you pretend that there's something in order to flip them into something down the road. They completely like acted as if Zion and Dejounte Murray just didn't exist. Which I don't blame them to a certain extent, especially with Zion. But like these guys are just kind of looming in the background of all they do. And so now that Murray's back, like you can't just sit him. He's better than a lot of the guards that they're playing out there.
- [21:20]
C
And.
- [21:20]
A
And so as to Rob's point, they're just diminishing the rookies in order to get these guys minutes. So it's just a complete mess, which is why I had them at two to. I just have. I haven't had no faith in this organization whatsoever. We haven't gotten into like the ownership structure and like the money that they're unwilling to spend year after year. They literally have never been in the luxury tax.
- [21:40]
B
Yep.
- [21:40]
A
I just, I have no faith in this organization to ever turn this thing around.
- [21:44]
B
It is podcast policy to never trust the Pelicans. I think you're embodying that better than anyone, Justin. Kyle, are the Pelicans on your list at all?
- [21:53]
C
I'm gonna be honest, I had them and they, I like in another clerical classical Kyle error. They didn't get on my list somehow, so I screwed that up. But you're absolutely right, so I agree. Let's just leave it at that.
- [22:03]
B
Steph Curry. Can't trust that guy. Trey Murphy though, signed me up.
- [22:08]
C
Well, let's just call it a strong six. We'll call it a bottom six. And they are, they were in there for me, just not in the right order. Yeah, yeah.
- [22:15]
A
I mean it is interesting though because they do have a lot of talent. Like we go through the trade deadline practically every year being like, what about this guy from the Pelicans? What about this guy? What about that guy? They have at least like three guys I think would work on high level teams. So they could. And even if they wanted to trade Trey Murphy, they could probably get it like a whole kitten caboodle for him at this point because there are so many teams being like the Detroit Golden State even like basically being like this guy would fit exactly what we need as sort of a 2, 3 option. Maybe defends, but at the very least can shoot really well at a high volume. Still has a lot of stuff to tap into on the ball. I just, they just kind of languish. Nothing really happens. They're just stuck in this like stasis of like eh, well, let's lay it out.
- [22:58]
B
I mean Trey Murphy is that good. Is having a great offensive season where he's gotten to expand and push and had some of the most explosive games of his entire career. Zion has had his most healthy season I think to date, at least in terms of a sustained stretch. Derek Queen was a breakout sensation as a rookie until he got marginalized. Otherwise like there are, there are hits and misses on the roster. Sadiq Bay ended up being like a huge windfall for them in terms of his contributions to the team. All of those things click, right? And they are a 17 and 42 team. So it's like, yeah, they're theoretically talented, yeah, there are lots of players they like, but it doesn't mean jack shit. And it doesn't mean jack in part because the roster construction doesn't make sense and will continue to not make sense. The rotations, first from Willie Green, now from James Borrego. Are just consistently baffling. And so, yeah, like, where. Where would the trust be if not just in the idea that, hey, we like enough of these guys to buoy them into something? Like, they're. They're clearly just fit for despair with this group that they have. And I see that group going far beyond just the roster itself.
- [24:02]
A
Let's talk about Zion quickly.
- [24:04]
B
Yeah.
- [24:05]
A
Because as Rob mentions, like, he's playing and playing well and nobody gives a shit. So right now, he's played 43 games this season. That is his third most in his career. If he stopped right now, this would be the third most. He played 1 for 70, played 61 in his second season. Probably going to maybe pass at the very least, second place on his gameplay log. Does anyone feel anything for Zion other than just like, a big old shrug at this point?
- [24:36]
B
I feel emptiness, you know?
- [24:39]
A
Okay.
- [24:39]
B
I feel like. Yeah, I feel like I'm watching something. This is the thing to. To your ultimate question here of, like, what do you feel when you watch him? I feel like I should feel something. I feel like I'm trying to reach for the sensation of him, like, borderline punking LeBron in a playoff game and seeming to, like, emerge in real time as the guy we were all waiting for him to be. And I'm just like, I don't see any version of that player anymore. I don't see that force anymore. I don't see that influence on the course of a game. And he just out there doing some things. And yet, like, what he doesn't do on defense, what he doesn't do as a rebounder, what he doesn't bring to the table, is still so glaring, even when he's healthy, that it's like, it's hard to get fully on board with even this version of Zion.
- [25:22]
C
Yeah, he always is kind of running like he's that. That animal at the back of the pack that's been running for a while, and he's kind of doing that kind of trot, like, you can't. You're never going to get him, like, sprinting at the top, at the front. I was trying to think of, like, superstar level talents because you're right. And. And what a. What an amazing precipitous. I guess you can't slide if it's precipitous. Maybe you can. I don't know, Justin, you can edit me on that one if you want, but from where we were. I mean, he used to be. There we go. That's the face.
- [25:50]
A
No, thanks.
- [25:50]
C
From where we were. From where we were just the excitement of watching him on a nightly basis was so incredible. And now we're, we're at this point where I'm trying to think of like guys who were superstar talents who don't fit the timeline of a team who basically are imprisoned in a situation where they're not dictating it. Like Rob was saying in the, in the off the court sense and how they steer the team and in the on court sense where he used to just be this thing that could steer and force everything. One of the, one of the great like tragedies ever was. We didn't get to see New Orleans like, or OKC have to deal with that like momentarily strong New Orleans team. I was like really hoping that that would happen. I can't, but I can't think of another superstar talent like that that's been in this situation where it's like on a given night, I mean he could, he could ruin somebody's night, like a good, good night because he's, he's such a quandary to deal with. And then he just didn't. He like negates it with all the different kind of conditions about like his availability long term. I don't know. Can you all think of another player like that guy? I really can't.
- [26:50]
A
It's, it's more like what if Greg Odin had an, like a longer career in fits and starts. Like, Odin was very impactful when he went on the court. I remember several articles back in the day specifically citing his great per and how good he was and what an impact he made as a defender and also on the other end. But like it's that level of impact, but like you can't believe in it and you have no faith that he'll ever continue on in this sort of trajectory.
- [27:18]
B
Yeah.
- [27:19]
A
And so you're almost paralyzed. It really forces a team to treat him like a star, but also like a player that does not matter.
- [27:26]
B
I think he, he is kind of more representative than anyone right now of like the myth making of singular viewing experience of like, if you were watching him regularly at a very specific point in time, there's always going to be a part of you that believes he can tap back into that again or that hopes that he can. And if you missed it, if, if you were just like checking in, this is your first NBA season and you're watching Zion Williamson play, you're like, that guy's okay. Like, you know, I don't really see why he's more notable than Sadiq Bay, for example, but if you were there, if you were watching it, if you were, you know, thrilled by every prospect in every play. And like he used to be a hold your breath kind of talent. Like every time he touched the ball, not just because of the injury risk, but because of everything he could do with it, that's all gone. Like, even when he's productive now, even when he's dominant now, I think all of that has just been zapped out of the building. And frankly, that's a part of this future for the Pelicans too. Like the idea of Zion as a lamelo ball esque ticket draw for a small market team was a very powerful and important thing. And that is just like not a part of the formula whatsoever for the Pelicans.
- [28:29]
C
And he's not gonna, his technique isn't really. That's another scary thing on the horizon is his technique that should have softened the landing of him aging as a basketball player gracefully. I don't think it's going to age well. I think the way that he plays at six foot six, I don't even know if that's the accurate measurement. But I mean just the powering into the big, I would say the king, King Bob OMB jumps that he does where. And that's what he, that's what he relies on is powering into people and having this touch.
- [28:56]
B
Okay. He, he's more of a King ddd if we're being honest about it, you know?
- [29:00]
A
Jesus fucking Christ.
- [29:02]
C
I know, man.
- [29:03]
A
This can't get any nerdy. We really can't go this deep.
- [29:06]
B
You're, you're really talking a lot of game, Justin, for someone who opened our pre pod her by talking about Wookiepedia. All right, like pretend you're above this.
- [29:15]
A
I'm not on there. All right. You're writing Star Wars.
- [29:19]
C
Yeah, he was trying to, he was trying to cater to speak our language, Rob. That's why he said Wikipedia before Wikipedia. I don't know what that says about.
- [29:28]
B
Even more insulting, frankly.
- [29:30]
A
I just want you.
- [29:30]
C
I worry about him aging. I mean, just being healthy, just being healthy, period. So that he can develop those types of things. But even if he were healthy, I, I, I would worry about him, his aging curve as a player, just because, you know, like a Giannis who has that same kind of downhill thing. Giannis is at least big like and has a body type that I know he gets hurt, but he's not perfect or impervious from that. But yeah, Zion worries me on that front.
- [29:57]
A
It's almost like a horror franchise where the jump scares were just so thrilling at first. Like, you just, you just loved it. You couldn't wait for the next one. And by like the fifth one, you're like, oh, this is really contrived and not all that interesting. And I'm not all that scared or, or even excited to be a part of this. Just like, the thrill is gone, baby.
- [30:15]
B
New Orleans Pelicans Colon. Paranormal Activity. What are we thinking? It does seem like a found footage kind of franchise.
- [30:22]
A
There's some voodoo going down there.
- [30:23]
C
So deep in the bayou. Yeah.
- [30:27]
A
All right, why don't we take a quick break and we come back. I'll do my number four. This episode is brought to you by Tommy Hilfiger. Here's what happens when west coast relaxation meets modern prep in Tommy Hilfiger's spring collection. Think light wash denim and new relaxed silhouettes paired with oversized trenches and chore coats with heritage inspired touches. Then take those rugby and polo shirts you love and elevate them with rich cable textures and new Tommy crests. And when you throw in easy breezy light layers in linen essentials, you've got laid back sophistication. Explore more@tommy.com all right, my number four, you guessed it, the Chicago Bulls, reluctantly, the Jaden Ivy quotes were the saddest shit I could ever even not even
- [31:16]
C
come up with, man.
- [31:19]
A
Because my whole defense of that entire situation, of their many deals over their many second round pick they got, they swapped all that, was that perhaps that they just bought low on Ivy and all of a sudden they could just get the benefits of waiting on him to come back from his injury. The fact that he's outright saying that he's not the same player that he used to be to me, signals that the Bulls probably just misjudged that entire situation already. That's bad. Like, at this point, like, if you're not doing that right, I really don't have much in the way of trying to just make a brave face on what has been a pretty consistently mediocre situation.
- [32:01]
B
I'm not even sure what they were trying to do with that trade, which we should say, like, Kevin Herder isn't exactly playing for the, for the Pistons much either right now. But jaden Ivy getting DNP CDs so quickly after the trade while saying all this stuff. And you're right, Justin, like, we were hopeful on this pot of like, okay, maybe a fresh start could do Ivy a lot of good. The fact that he isn't hopeful about any of this, the fact that the Bulls aren't investing in him at all. There's just no reason to think he's going to be a part of the future of that team. And so, I mean, I have the Bulls at 2 on my list, so I think it sounds like me and you, Justin, just kind of flip the Bulls and the Pelicans in our pecking order here. I think in part because unlike some of these other teams, they are like squarely out of contention for one of these, like, elite draft picks in this upcoming class. And they are without a roster that really gives them any chance whatsoever to elevate into a hopeful place of. Of like actual sustained contention. And if you have neither of those things going right now, you're just kind of cooked. And the Bulls really did this to themselves.
- [33:00]
C
Yeah. The present and the future. Kind of bleak to say this. I had them at three. I mean, their rebuild, they're just like never ending. Rebuild continues to just be frustrating, you know, giddy. As we talked about early in the season, very conditional, tricky to build around him. Pat Williams is just not good. I saw one of. One of my, like draft Twitter people was talking about that. Pat Williams's quads are too big. I don't have to send this to you all. They are gigantic. It's pretty impressive. He did not skip leg day.
- [33:32]
A
He's got a.
- [33:32]
C
No, not a dude.
- [33:33]
A
That's his problem.
- [33:36]
C
Yeah.
- [33:37]
B
I gotta say, of all the reasons that Pat Williams is bad, and there are many, I was not expecting quads being too big.
- [33:43]
A
He'd be Phil Jackson's favorite player.
- [33:45]
B
There you go.
- [33:46]
C
See the pictures before you make a decision. Okay. Jalen Smith, he might have another chance at some point. Jalen Smith, but he's not. I'm not making big decisions. It kind of. It kind of makes you wonder though. I mean, they traded away IO and Kobe, who actually sneakily might have been the keeper players. Like, I. I wonder if they really, really misjudged their. Who should stay, who should go. And then they take the Flyers on scoring guards like Sexton and Dillingham, who I just don't. You know, I loved stealing him. That was a weak class.
- [34:16]
A
I just.
- [34:17]
C
The other, the other thing too here is that, you know, they haven't shipped a lot of their own firsts out the door, which is nice. This just in these Portland picks coming up, this is pretty interesting. So they have a 2026 first that's from Portland, that's lottery protected. 26 through 20 or from 2026 through 2028. I wouldn't expect that Portland's going to be in the lottery in the next in that range. So they should get a pick around 15, so there's a chance.
- [34:43]
A
Come on, buddy. Buddy. Have you watched the Blazers of late?
- [34:47]
C
Where do you think the pick will be? Justin and I'll name some names. I'm just saying, even if it is 15, they could get something helpful if they're fine.
- [34:55]
A
It's funny that you mentioned it. Cause I was doing that last night in preparation for this. Right now it'd be 18. I mean, you look at the play in competition in the west as well. Like, everybody is hurt, including the Blazers. And so, like, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up being like the seventh seed in the play in race. And I do think, like, the draft order is based off of final results, not how you do in the play in. And so, like, yeah, it's going to be low teens, like 18 to maybe even like 20. And I think they would convey that this year that's a highly likely scenario.
- [35:27]
C
Well, some. There are some names I think that could help them. Thomas Hauk, Joshua Jefferson, Sigourney Swanson, Ricardo Montague. Bert Framson.
- [35:37]
B
Okay, Ricardo Montague. That's not. That's not a real one character.
- [35:41]
C
Those are some guys that I think could help the Bulls. No. I'll let you all figure out which of those things were real.
- [35:50]
A
Well, okay, so this is the flip side to the argument. I agree with everything you guys are saying. There is just open Runway for this franchise in a way that there rarely is for most teams, let alone a team at this point. But here's the thing. Look. So in 20, 27, 28 so far, two years from now, they literally right now have three guaranteed contracts on the books. One of them, hilariously, is Patrick Williams, which is insane, but it's giddy and it's a senge. And Isenge is a rookie deal. And so there's nothing but opportunity for someone to just come in here and just completely remodel this team in the way that, like we've been saying before, like in. In, like earlier four years ago, it was more like, why are they reaching for DeRozan, Levine, etc. They should just tear it down. They kind of have done that. The problem is that nobody has faith that they will be able to take advantage of it. And the big issue is that they aren't willing to overhaul the front office to give somebody else a chance with a different vision in order to do so. And so it really is as simple as ownership being like, oh, this new guy who's better at this, go do this because we need something fresh here. But how much faith do you have in the Ryan's door to do anything different considering their very long track record of doing the exact opposite?
- [37:03]
B
Yeah, what you need to freshen up is the ownership situation more generally. That's not going to happen. And so it's like a lot of what happens with the Bulls. Look, there are certain top down directives with every team in terms of wanting to stay in certain competitive brackets in terms of the directions ultimately they've been pushing for. I think some of that is true with the Bulls and the Reinsdorfs. Some of it is just like Arturis Carnisibus not doing a particularly good job managing some of these assets over the last couple of years in terms of the players who have been on the roster. And this is a problem that probably even predates him, to be honest with you, of the bullshit like hanging on to guys too long and in doing so giving themselves no momentum into the next phase of their team. Everything is like clutched a little too tightly, ends up being like a poof of second round picks that result in nothing whatsoever. And that's how you get this team that, yeah, Justin has a very clear cap sheet, but also nothing to bank on. Right. Like the best things about this team right now are Josh Giddy's productivity, which is true and inarguable. I don't know where it leads or where it takes a team, but it is there. Modest Bouzelis, who's 21 years old and already quite good, that's something that they can absolutely hang their hats on. And after that I really don't know. And some of it's like, Noah Senge better be good. Some of it is Rob Dillingham, who has not really been any better for the Bulls than he was for the Wolves. I, I'm like, Kyle, I'm with you that like I'm really hoping and praying something happens for him, but like I don't really see it on the court and haven't seen it in his NBA games as of yet. Maybe he pans into something for the Bulls, but there's just no reason to think that they're going to be able to put something together because they don't like the outline for this team is going to require like a lot of patience and a lot of savvy team building. And when has this team shown patience for anything other than mediocrity?
- [38:47]
A
Jesus, the Chicago Bulls, we've got nothing.
- [38:52]
B
It's Bad. That's how they're.
- [38:53]
C
That's why they're number two. I think I called them the Indiscernibles in one of our drafts last year. They. The. No, Dillingham is unfort. Going to become a part of a sort of archetype case study thing for, for the draft where it's just like, okay, this guy's really skilled. And just his size has been like a cautionary tale like in the, in the case file. Basically. Like the. This is. This guy was super, super skilled. And you look at him out there and the size just is just way more of a problem than I thought. And the league has been, the direction the league has moved. I think some of the pace and space stuff has sort of leveled out. I know we're still shooting a lot of threes and I just think it's penalized guys like him. So I don't, I don't know that we're gonna see. I'm sad to say, maybe we'll see like a little resurgence at the end to put a bow on this in a good way. But I'm, I'm not confident.
- [39:41]
B
It would also be the most Bulls thing ever if, look, they waited all these years and finally traded Nikola Vuchevic. They finally, you know, made a decision on Kobe White one way or the other. They finally traded someone like I would assume who. I'm with you guys that like, I wouldn't have done. But at least they kind of made a choice leading into the free agency rather than just like committing to the default. If they do all this stuff to finally ostensibly take a slight step back from just gunning for the play in every year and then the league changes the tanking rules and changes the lottery system just as they do, it is just the most Bulls outcome possible.
- [40:16]
A
I hadn't thought about that. Did you guys factor that in at all in some of your rankings that like they might just flatten odds or do something more extreme?
- [40:24]
B
It's hard. I mean, it's hard to know where any of that's going to land. And so like I, I will say, I mean I did weight very heavily. Anyone who has a chance at like a real top five pick this year, and in particular a top four pick this year, like that seems like a. A genuinely franchise altering opportunity and it may be even more so because we don't know how all that stuff's going to pan out in lotteries to come.
- [40:46]
A
I do think it's telling though that if the Bulls somehow vaulted past all of these other Tankers and there are a great many at this point. And did land like the number one or number two pick. If Bonsa just in this situation, it's pretty telling that, like, I don't think all that different about them. Like, they would just be debonsa and then nothing else. It would be like him and Giddy still trying to do a similar version of what they're doing now. And so, yeah, this pretty bleak. So maybe I should have had them higher than four. But I have met four. Rob, you had him two.
- [41:13]
B
Yeah.
- [41:13]
A
Kyle, you had him at three. Rob, do you still have a number or Kyle, do you have a four left or. No, you did the Warriors. So Rob, do you want to do your three?
- [41:22]
B
I have the Milwaukee Bucks at three. Are the. Are the Bucks on either of your lists?
- [41:27]
A
I have them exactly at three. I'm so proud of you right now.
- [41:30]
B
I mean, well, okay, we should say if we really want to go into the vault. I feel like there was a Justin barrier. The Bucks are on the no power rankings, and then they went on to win the title. Like, did you put them on the no power rankings before the championship?
- [41:44]
A
I definitely remember putting them on here maybe last year or two years ago. Last year was the sun. We've been doing this for so long.
- [41:51]
B
I have no idea.
- [41:53]
A
But I was right. I was probably right.
- [41:55]
B
You know what time. Over a long enough timeline, all takes are proven right.
- [42:00]
C
And this one, definitely the clock. The clock will hit 12.
- [42:06]
B
Yeah, it will hit it eventually. Like, okay, let's, let's. Let's talk short term.
- [42:12]
A
Yeah.
- [42:12]
B
Bucks have won eight of 10 games. That's great for them. We talked about it on the last podcast. Lots of little micro reasons for, you know, not optimism, but nice little things that are popping up over the course of their season that may not have happened otherwise. Like Usman Jang turned out to be a great little trade for them. Cam Thomas is doing his thing, as he is ought to do. You can choose to believe out there that The Kevin Porter Jr. Version of the Bucks will continue to be good. That is a thing you can choose to do with your life. I am not going to do it personally. And if you're not going to do that, you just have to acknowledge that this shit is about to get really bleak for probably a really long time. And we don't know when the honest stuff will resolve. I assure you at some point it will. Everything is still pointing in the direction of him getting traded. And I don't know that, like, of all the packages we've even Seen and conceived of. The best ones are reliant on picks that are, like five and seven years out in a lot of cases for some of these teams. Granted, you could package those picks and flip them into something that can help you more in the short term, but the next legitimately good version of the Bucks is quite a ways away, and so I don't know how they could escape some kind of ranking on this list.
- [43:20]
C
I had them at one.
- [43:22]
A
Yeah, Kyle, I was surprised.
- [43:25]
C
Three. Well, the bottom's pretty dark. You know, you look down there at the bottom, there are. There's. You can't really totally see what's down there. It's like there's some shapes of things. So really. 1, 2, 3. You know, it's all. It's all pretty bleak. No, I mean, the assets. You. You hit on it. Usman Jang. I mean, secret of the ooze, as Tyler has called him in the past. I always like that one. Rollins was a nice find.
- [43:48]
B
He love Rollins.
- [43:50]
C
Dipped around December. He's kind of come back around. They're on an interesting little run here, but it's one of those, like, February, March runs where I was going through there not to. Not to torture the Bucks fans in their. In their elation. I have noticed their attendance has been going down, too, so maybe they're not enthralled by it either. But eight of their last 10 records says it on their results. It says it. It's not. You can. It's an easy peruse. I'm glad someone's.
- [44:16]
B
The Gates, you know, like, how are their concession sales? Are they doing okay?
- [44:19]
C
This is a. This is a business, okay? I'm over here keeping things, keeping the cash flow. Right? They beat the Cavs without Harden and Mitchell. They beat. They beat the Heat without Terry Rosier. They beat the Pelicans without Murphy and Missy. Escape by that one. And the Thunder without Shay, J Dub, AJ and Hartenstein. So, you know, they're feasting on this time of the schedule. But. Yeah, and then the other thing is the outgoing. The outgoing stuff is tough. I mean, you know, there's the pick to Atlanta with the swap. New Orleans. Yeah. 2027, same kind of thing. 2028, 2029, 2030. So the. I don't know, the Bucks kind of remind me of one of those job simulations. Did you guys ever had this where they would, like, take everybody to the gym and you get this, like, play money and you go around and somebody who's the doctor, there's somebody who's the insurance guy, and they're and your money. You didn't have that. You got assigned. It was like you're a. You're a salesman, you're a. You know, you're a banker, you're a doctor, and.
- [45:20]
B
Yeah, this is a different kind of computer than the one you're imagining.
- [45:22]
C
Jv.
- [45:23]
B
This is.
- [45:23]
C
I'm just saying.
- [45:26]
A
You want to make a deposit?
- [45:29]
B
What's wrong with you?
- [45:31]
C
How did you derail that that quickly?
- [45:33]
B
Why are you the way you are?
- [45:36]
C
Exactly.
- [45:37]
A
It's a much different.
- [45:37]
C
You don't get to quote the office. Rob. You hate the office.
- [45:39]
B
But the other thing, that's just an insight.
- [45:43]
C
No, I mean, the. The bucks also remind me of like the how I met your mother. You know, that's. That's for future Marshall to worry about. I just feel like they had a that's for future Milwaukee to worry about phase. And as a result, I just think the future is going to get real bleak because. Are we. We're really coasting on the KPJ cam Thomas vibes? How far is that going to take us?
- [46:04]
A
So they owe every first round pick until 2031. Cooper Flag is currently 19 years old. In 2031, he's going to be 25. He will be on the first year of the max deal that he's going to sign. And hopefully he will have grown an actual beard because I don't know what he's doing. This, like, wispy evil bed sort of thing that he has going on. It's really.
- [46:26]
C
I don't know if that's happening for him. I'll need to study closely on Getty, but we'll see.
- [46:31]
B
What do you. What do you want to see for him, jv? Like, what's the ideal facial hair construction for Cooper right now?
- [46:37]
A
It's a little too manicured. It's almost like I can't grow a full goatee. So I'm gonna do the top and then the bottom, and they're not going to connect. I would have more respect for him if he chose a lane. Like, if he just went full goatee or he went full stash. I also think there's a clear lane to bring the stash back because Reed Shepard is too much of a coward to go full full Sash. But you got to do something maybe like some chops. Maybe chops in a stash.
- [47:01]
B
Wow.
- [47:01]
A
Could they connect. Maybe we're being bold about it.
- [47:05]
B
I mean, here's the thing. You're more qualified than anyone I know to speak on this because you're the ultimate connector. You know Your connection is unimpeachable to
- [47:13]
A
not know that's where you're going. But yeah, they, they don't have their own picks and so the dance of like trying to supplement their future with somebody else's is always so highly complicated. As we talked about around the deadline, there isn't a natural trade partnership with the even Pulitz next year or with the Blazers down the road because they have most of their future picks. And so like I don't know how they get their own future back. So you're just hoping you get let's say three to four young guys of varying skills and that that's your future. Like this isn't a free agent market destination. Guys aren't just going to come there willingly. So where's the talent injection going to come from if you can't even draft it yourself?
- [47:51]
B
That's the thing. And like what does this do in terms of setting the priorities for your franchise, starting with a potential Giannis trademark? If tanking isn't even an option to you like then are you targeting more like Tyler hero oriented like let's get decent players in the door now kinds of deals that yes, also have draft compensation involved but like it's so obvious that's like not where they need to go. And yet they might be kind of nudged in the direction by the reality of not having their own picks. And so not having the high end talent in the door now that you could really believe could develop into something that would vault the bucks back into relevance. But also not having their own picks to lose enough to get it. It just makes them way too reliant on way too many variables like they need a great Giannis deal, they need that deal to involve picks with other teams that will actually indeed be as bad as they are expected to be, which isn't always the case with these kinds of moves. And then even then they need to pick the right players and even if they do, those players might not be actually good for another like three years. So the timeline is starting now in a lot of ways, but we may not see the payoff for years and years to come.
- [48:57]
A
We haven't even gotten to the financials as well. So we talk all about what a bad deal Kuzma is on at this point. Dame next season is making Kuzma money and he's going to do that for three years. After that he is stretched for five years. So there are four more years of about $22 million on their books of Damian Lillard while he goes and plays for The Blazers, hopefully as soon as next year. So next year, Turner, Kuzma, and Dame account for just about $70 million on their cap.
- [49:29]
B
Yeah. I mean, effectively what they did was they paid Miles Turner almost the max, and that. That is a thing you can do. But then once Giannis leaves, I think you really start to. To feel the brunt of it.
- [49:39]
A
Yeah. So I had them at three, Rob had at three, Kyle had him at one. Kyle, do you have a two open?
- [49:45]
C
I had Sacramento at number two.
- [49:48]
A
Okay. They're my number one.
- [49:50]
B
They're my number one.
- [49:53]
C
Yeah. I mean, the, the, the honest variable of what they get, I think, is the good argument for them to. Not to. For the Kings to be ahead of them. Did you all have any kind of opening volley that you wanted to throw about the Kings or. I'll throw it to you.
- [50:06]
B
I mean, like, after you, please. They just signed Killian Hayes. Like, that's one of the omens, you know, that's really.
- [50:16]
C
Oh, my God, I forgot about that.
- [50:18]
A
I think there are stages of. Of being in a rebuild, and one of them is like, oh, you've done the hard work of completely getting rid of all the past generation, and you've at the very least moved on to something. You're bad, you're young, but you're figuring it out. The Kings have decided that on the fly after last offseason bringing in veterans. So they've changed streams, like, basically, like, what, in November. They just decided after they went through a very bad summer to just all of a sudden flip that on its head. Okay, cool. Probably the right path ultimately, but they still have, with Sabonis, Levine and DeRozan on their books for next season, at least $105 million. And it actually vaults another 16 million on top of that if they don't just waive DeRozan outright because he's only guaranteed for 10 million. So they still have to do the hard work of turning these players into something else. The problem is nobody values these guys. Nobody wants a bonus. Nobody wants Levine. We'll see. If DeRozan hatches on to a team as like a six man type, I assume someone's going to take a flyer on him, but, like, what are they even getting for these guys? And on top of that, the organization fucking sucks. They can't get anything right. Like, if we're talking about going forward, what you believe in, this is the last organization front office ownership situation that anyone would want to be a part of.
- [51:37]
B
Yeah, I mean, that. That's the part of it that I think is crucial. Like, they have the worst record in the league. Let's even say they get the number one overall pick and get the prospect of their dreams. I have zero faith they will do any of the work required to build around that prospect, to retain them, to prioritize them, to maximize what they bring to the table. Like, it's such an institutional failure with the Kings, from interventionist ownership to poor roster management to, like, again, some of the strangest coaching decisions in the entire league over the course of the season. And that results in a roster where there just, like, isn't a lot going on and hasn't been a lot going on other than what you mentioned, jv, which is investing a lot in the core of a team that does not work. And anyone could have told you will not work.
- [52:23]
C
Yeah, that was. That was the pretty damning sin that happened at the pivot was, you know, investing and dumping all this money into these guys that, like, said, jb, aren't going to have any value to anybody else unless it's in a diminished role. And who's going to have the money to even, like, put those players in that role? This is the fourth oldest roster in the league to keep with my updates on that, their outgoing stuff. I don't want to rub it in for the spurs, what position that they're in, that the. The spurs have so many crazy. Just little picks that they have here and there coming in while they're. While this core of theirs matures. But they have a 20, 31 first round pick going to San Antonio.
- [52:59]
B
A swap, I think. Right?
- [53:02]
C
Yeah. So. And then if you think about their young guys, you know, Reynaud has been a little bit of a good surprise. Clifford, you know, Clifford Carter, you know, they converted. They converted Cardwell, I think. But what's brutal is that, like, we're going to be criticizing these dudes who were like, lower picks. They should have been kind of supplementary talent. I know they don't have that central talent talent. That's the thing that really sucks for them. And if they do end up getting. I was thinking about this. I don't know how much you. You all followed, like, the Darren Peterson drama. How much of a sort of a loner, like, he wants the quiet. It could be an interesting place for him because Sacramento would be quiet if he went there. You know, give him a little bit of some fresh air. I don't think that it would be like, organizationally, I don't. I don't know that that's what the. What his camp is wanting but, yeah, there's not a lot of promising stuff on the. On the horizon for them in terms of guys developing.
- [53:54]
B
I was alarmed even in knowing how bad the King situation was, as I'm trying to find literally any silver linings with this team. And Kyle, I think you hit the most important ones, which are Renault, like, I'm a Nick Clifford believer. And he's really had an opportunity to show what he can do offensively over the last month or so, which has been great for them. But, like, how quickly I got to, like, how about Daquan Plowden was an alarming turn of events in terms of, like, literally the only things going even remotely positively with this roster.
- [54:24]
A
So is it worse that they turned down Luca and traded Halliburton because they had Fox and then he ultimately just left after a playoff series, then trading Luca outright?
- [54:38]
C
Those two hurts so bad. Those two hurts so bad.
- [54:42]
B
Not even to mention gave up that pick swap to San Antonio in the Fox deal to make it happen so that they could also bring back Zach Levine, whose contract no one wanted to him.
- [54:50]
C
I think Silver should have just come in and said, like, okay, all right, that's it. Party's over. Like, he's franchise revoked. Jesus Christ. Like, dude, it's.
- [55:02]
A
It's bad. I have no faith that they will take what they have from this point and turn it into something else. It's the same thing with the Pelicans. Ultimately. Like, I went through a lot of the different variables, as Kyle's alluding to, but if you just don't have faith in the organization to figure out the basic, like, home runs that are right in front of your face, then how is this ever going to change?
- [55:22]
B
Yeah. And frankly, even if they had kept those guys, even if you get the players right in so many critical instances, I think the Kings are just going to get basically everything else wrong on a consistent basis. So do. No, please.
- [55:36]
C
I mean, do we agree that, like, the. The McNair, Mike Brown alignment, even though Vivek was, like, not. That was like, the closest thing that they have come to, like, having a spiritual, organizational, like, triumvirate that, you know, because that's what you need. That's. That's as close as they've come. And, you know, that's. That's not happening anymore. So it's. It's sad that they came so close to being confident and it was just snatched away.
- [56:01]
A
Right. The only thing close was the Mike Malone DeMarcus Cousin era, but that was
- [56:06]
B
just 10 games or whatever.
- [56:08]
A
It was just like, rife with just infighting and people trying to, like, get power that probably shouldn't have, and DeMarcus being mad at literally everybody except for Mike Malone. So, yeah, it's been. It's been rough, and it's probably not going to get better.
- [56:24]
B
I just.
- [56:25]
A
I wish it would.
- [56:25]
B
Like, I don't wish anyone this spot in our rankings, but the Kings, again, just have been so bad, so consistently in so many different ways over the years that it's just like, it's kind of crushing to see them here yet again. I want it. I want an exit strategy for them, and I just don't see it at all.
- [56:42]
C
I always say this. You know, it's bad whenever you talk about it. We, you know, we go through this on a weekly basis all the time. You talk about the league. You said critical things. You know it's bad when you don't hear back. You know, there are fan bases that you say things about, and I'm like, you just know. You do the math. You're like, I'll probably hear about this, this or this. You never hear anything. So that just tells me about the depression that they're going through. I feel bad for them.
- [57:05]
B
I feel like we might hear back. You guys weren't hard enough. You know, please hurt us more because this is anything but this other pain.
- [57:13]
A
I mute all of you guys. So I'm never going to hear from you ever again. So you can't hurt me.
- [57:18]
C
There you go.
- [57:20]
A
Do you. Any other teams that you guys considered here? I have the short list of shit teams this year that have, like, some picks, but, like, not a lot of good picks. Memphis, Washington, Brooklyn, all kind of in a similar situation, but there's like, just enough hopeful stuff going on there that they didn't make my list. Ultimately.
- [57:39]
B
Yeah, I think Washington and Utah in particular, with the trades that they've already made, are just going to be dramatically different and better teams next year. Memphis. I think Memphis and Brooklyn have so many picks coming their way that they just kind of can't quite eke into this top five. But I think. I think ultimately you do have to reach for one of these kind of veteran teams here, whether it's the warriors, whether it's the Clippers, whether it's both. In Kyle's case, like, there are just too many up and coming teams that have a lot going on that aren't good yet, but with some consolidation with the 1 pick of the drink, stirring guy could have everything kind of slot into place. And I feel like all the other contenders to me kind of fell into that category.
- [58:21]
C
Yeah, there's a, there's a limberness. I think that just sets them in a totally different category from these teams. The like because I, even with the Kings, I wrote a Dan here, I was like, if they don't screw it up, they have opportunities to pick well. But when you don't even trust teams to do that, that stuff like the Jazz, I, I, I've come to trust.
- [58:37]
A
Yeah, Jazz are fine. The problem is that they're openly warring with the NBA now and so they might just get moved at a certain point. They're literally sending a doctor to check out Lori Martin to see crazy. Well, is it when the Jazz are
- [58:53]
B
just basically being crazy?
- [58:54]
A
I don't know if it is.
- [58:55]
C
I think the fans are going to meet that guy. I think it's tarmac and give him a, give him a nice Salt Lake City welcome. You think that's what's going to happen?
- [59:02]
B
You know what one team I did think about and this hurts me to say as someone who is fully engaged in this season's mid off, what if this is, you know, the, the nice story season for the Suns and then next year they wake up and it's like, yeah, you had that great run. Yeah, you had a super competitive season. But they have so many picks out the door. We're seeing like yet again how little Jalen Green does for a team. And they are, they are yet another one of these franchises that doesn't have like the bankable young talent that's about to explode. Like they have Devin Booker, they have a really solid roster. They have a lot of hard playing defenders. Maybe this is just like go on Dragon Dragic era sons trauma that I'm responding to of like the Eric Bled. So like one year overachieve and then that doesn't quite set the new bar. But I did wonder if we need to at least talk about the Suns.
- [59:53]
A
So you don't think playing hard and Dylan Brooks is like the fast pass to contention in a deep Western Conference. Is that what you're saying?
- [60:00]
B
It's the fast pass to something.
- [60:02]
A
Yeah. I love watching the Suns.
- [60:04]
B
They're like. But they're really good right now at least. Well they were when they were healthy. Right now they're kind of a mess. But like how's that going for you?
- [60:11]
A
What's, what's the record looking like right now?
- [60:13]
B
I mean we'll have to see how the smoke settles on that.
- [60:16]
A
Like I'm feeling great.
- [60:17]
B
Are you?
- [60:18]
A
I am feeling alive. But even with Denny basically just not even playing anymore. I feel pretty good about that.
- [60:25]
B
As you watch Scoot Henderson drive into traffic and fall. Fall over repeatedly like you're feeling great.
- [60:31]
A
What are you talking.
- [60:33]
C
This is great.
- [60:34]
B
Just saying.
- [60:34]
A
It's like one of their best players right now. Have you seen Clingan? After all the. I took about his offensive rebounding. Literally leading the league in offensive rebounding. What did you take when we. When we. We put him in our, like, threesome of.
- [60:48]
B
And we all roundly praised him.
- [60:50]
A
Now you called him Rudy Gobert with
- [60:52]
B
a three point shot.
- [60:53]
A
That's what happened. I did, but that was a little. I was gonna say.
- [60:58]
C
You didn't listen. Justin. Rob, what a great hedge by you to sort of like, invoke their name in this conversation. And then with your mid. Your mid. Your advocate, like, you advocating for them against the Blazers. It was just a great hedge by you because.
- [61:12]
B
Thank you.
- [61:13]
C
When you started to bring them up, I was like. I was like, man, Rob, you're like. You're like the guy who says candyman 3. Are you trying to summon Matt Ishbo on Twitter? Is that what you're trying to do? We haven't. We were moving out of that. Right? You're trying to.
- [61:25]
B
Yeah. I can assure you I'm not trying to summon him in any capacity. But two things can be true at once. The Suns have been really good this year, and their future has not really changed as a result of them being really good this year.
- [61:37]
A
I would quibble over their immediate as well, but that's just me.
- [61:42]
C
All right.
- [61:43]
A
Anything else? Any poop stories, Kyle? You want to dig into some shit?
- [61:46]
B
Do we want to do a Kyle poop corner at the end of every pod?
- [61:50]
C
No poop stories this time for me? No.
- [61:53]
A
Okay.
- [61:54]
C
Rob and I had a really thrilling conversation about automatic egg cookers the other day. I wanted to see where you.
- [62:00]
A
No, that's good. We'll just save it.
- [62:03]
C
Yeah, save it for later.
- [62:07]
B
You see, you never support us. You know, we have many hobbies, many interests, and you're just shutting us down at every corner. Jb.
- [62:15]
A
Well, when you guys come up with some ideas for the pilot, I'll perhaps indulge you a little bit. All right, why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Jesse Lopez for filling in on production. Thank you to Victoria Valencia and Ben Cruz, as per usual. We'll be back on Monday. Talk to you then.