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“The Pacemakers” Take Game 3. Plus, Predicting Offseason Headlines. | Group Chat
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- [00:00]
Justin Duverrier
This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Slow and steady doesn't always win the race. Like when Phil Jackson really needed a shot in Game 2 of the NBA Finals, he just gave the ball to Kobe and let him cook. And that helped win the game. If you're looking to hire someone fast, use Indeed. Indeed. Sponsored jobs get 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Speed up your hiring process right now with a 75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com ringermba that's indeed.com ringermba Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.
- [00:43]
Rob Mahoney
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Duverrier. And joining me back for another triumphant Indiana Pacers win, Rob Mahoney. Fig was Rob. What are we calling these guys? The Pacemakers. The Cardiac Pacers. I feel like we need to name now.
- [00:59]
Waz
We, we got a lot to go through on that front just now. We asked the Group Chat listeners for their recommendations for Pacer sick names. Let me tell you, they delivered. My phone has never blown up so much as registering with every email notification. So we're going to get into it. I think that we have plenty of time to sing the Pacers praises on this pod. But I just got to say for us, for the three of us and all that we've been through as corn boys together, we still didn't give the Pacers enough credit. We still haven't lavished them with enough praise. The Indiana Pacers are two wins away from the NBA title. How about that?
- [01:31]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, well, I don't know if you felt this, but after that game two when the Thunder won, there seemed to be a resetting where everyone's like, oh, Thunder, Thunder and five. We're gonna see what we all expected. But clearly not. The Pacers just feel that.
- [01:46]
Isaiah Blakely
Okay, I didn't feel that at all. The Thunder is in game two. They look like a team with their actual backs against the wall and they played hard. They killed it, all of that in front of their home crowd. But the paces have been an incredible home team the entire playoffs. Like the idea that game three was gonna happen and the Thunder were gonna just come in and roll them. I, I don't like we gotta just, we gotta get over it. This is a very good to great team. They're not going to get rolled by anybody. They're too good for that. And so no, I mean I can understand why people, they come in with their priors, heavy favorite on the Thunder side and so they come back with game two and have authoritative win. I understand why people, you know Just revert back to their priors. But like for me, this team has been incredible in Indy, the entire playoffs and you know, basically outside of game one, they've been a game three in Indy sort of team. Like they even used to the rhythms now of a series swinging back to Indianapolis and so yeah, I, I thought they would be tough. Tough to kill again.
- [02:59]
Rob Mahoney
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need. You could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. And State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. I think part of it was just like the regular season. We spent so much time coming to terms with the fact that OKC was so much better than practically everyone and that the Pacers certainly in the mix. Obviously we talked a lot about their second half, but yeah, I think a lot of us were just kind of like reverting back to what we previously had as our bias going into these series. But I also think like the Pacers, Rob also showed why they keep doing this when at the end of this game in particular, it seemed like for the last, I don't know, eight, seven, six minutes, whatever it was, they made practically every play, every hustle play, every sharp, precise play while the Thunder just ran out of gas and just didn't seem like they had that extra hump they needed.
- [04:08]
Waz
I think that last part of it is the key part. Like it felt like the Pacers won the war of attrition in a lot of ways where not only all of those critical, like must have 50, 50 ball plays, the Thunder looked exhausted, they looked flat footed. They look like they lost track of all the little things. Like how many times did we see a Pacer run in for an offensive rebound basically untouched? An Obi toppin two handed dunk put back like that's unacceptable in an NBA Finals game. And yet an incredible possession, an incredible sequence of events for Indiana and they had those kinds of plays across the board. I think that stuff starts with Indiana picking up Shea over the course of this entire game, wearing him down gradually over the course of it, targeting him defensively in a way that I thought was more concerted than we've seen in these finals to this point. And you can see the downstream effects of all of that now. J Dub has to do more now. Chet has to do more now. Alex Crusoe's handling the ball more now. We're stretching out guys minutes and consolidating the rotation and everyone's having to do. Do a little bit more. And it seemed like by the end nobody really had enough to do. Like to, to manage that kind of energy level was.
- [05:12]
Isaiah Blakely
That's the impression that I got. One Shay possession stands out to me. It's the one where he comes out, he gets the high screen and they basically hedge on him. And as the 1 Pacer defender is recovering back to, I think it's Caruso, he's recovering back to Shay, sort of pirouettes, turns around, doesn't know what to do. He's right at the free throw line, extended, which is his spot, and he just walks. He just turns around and walks. Looks confused. And in the fourth quarter, their offense bogged down. That's. That's what I remember most from that fourth quarter. It was just, it wasn't even a lot of isolation, by the way they were setting screens up top and trying to get some movement going. It's just that Indy just covered it beautifully. And I think some of the stuff where you're setting a screen with Caruso, who, although he's made a nice amount of shots, he, he's not a threat to dribble drive. He's not a threat to set his own, to run his own pick and roll. He's just not a threat. So to get his defender in the mix on Shay or on J Dub in these fourth quarter possessions, where now these guys have to operate, where they're already, you know, attracting extra help because the screener just, just brought his man over. I thought that stuff was tough. And I think playing the Pacers does wear on teams, but both mentally and physically, I think there's something to having to remind yourself every single time to get all the way back, every single time having to remind yourself about the constant actions and movements and is this guy going to drive it? Is he going to shoot it? The unpredictability of it. You don't get to rest your mind when you're playing against the Pacers. And I think by the time the fourth quarter came around, I think Okz was just over it. They're like, jesus Christ, sick of this.
- [07:01]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, well, it did seem like Rob, that the Pacers made more of a concerted effort. And even Hal Burton kind of like nodded to the fact that they were going to take Shay out of this pretty much. Or at the very least going to add added additional attention to him. He had six turnovers in this game. Turnovers were a big deal overall. I think six was the most for him in a postseason game. Do you think a lot of it was that? I guess three things are happening here. One, the added addition to Shay and the trickle down effect from that. It seemed like the Thunder also tightened the rotation, which I'm trying to remember the last time they went eight even in a half, which is what they went to. And it did feel like they didn't have the extra oomph. Or is this more Pacers? Like when you get into a game in the fourth quarter that's close. This is where they break out the Daggers and like you better fucking just run for cover.
- [07:45]
Waz
Yeah, I think probably the first and the third primarily like I think anytime you can put that much wear and tear on Shay over the course of a game, just force him to do so much heavy lifting just to get the ball up court to disrupt the flow of their offense. We've seen time and again throughout these playoffs, if you can just disrupt them at the point of attack with Shay, you force the Thunder to get into some really deep possessions really quickly. And I say that in a game that was honestly one of J Dub's best games throughout this postseason. I thought he was sensational for the bulk of this game and just down the stretch their whole offense fell apart. It wasn't just him, it wasn't just Shay. It was kind of everything sensational for.
- [08:20]
Rob Mahoney
Jdub because I noticed him pop after halftime where he was concertedly like being aggressive about it. He had those two big buckets. He guarded Siakam up in the perimeter. So clearly something got to him that he needed to lock in. But I think with Jdub he does come in fits and starts. And my criticism has always been like where's the complete effort where if Shai is going to get all that additional attention, he just takes the game by his throat and has like a 30 point performance.
- [08:46]
Waz
Right. I think that's where the close to this game was a little disappointing because if I had to pinpoint what I was most impressed from the J Dub in this game, like the games where he hits a bunch of spot up jumpers, good, that's always a good shot. Like everyone needs that in their offense. But the games where he's hitting tough contested shots, especially mid Rangers runners, the star level shots, those are the games that impressed me most. And I thought we saw flashes of that throughout this game. Right? Little moments where maybe the offense was on the skids a little bit, and all of a sudden Jdub's coming up with a huge bucket. He's. He's saving possessions, he's bailing the Thunder out of some stuff that's going sideways.
- [09:20]
Rob Mahoney
He's.
- [09:21]
Waz
And then by the end of this game, they just had no one bailing them out, right? Shai is having the kinds of possessions that was outlined. J Dub is a little bit invisible. Chet had a nice opening stretch, especially in transition, but sort of faded offensively over the course of this game. All of a sudden, there's just like no flotation devices left for the Thunder, which is such a weird place to see a team. Like, we're just used to them being able to weather any kind of storm, any kind of huge run. And the Pacers, like they've been for basically every opponent to this point, have just been overwhelming in games like this.
- [09:50]
Isaiah Blakely
I thought J Dub, I thought this was a really good J Dub game. It wasn't perfect, obviously, but I thought some of the stuff he did is going to like, this is the stuff that needs to happen if they're going to win this series. In the second quarter, Indiana kind of stretched it to 7 and it looked like, okay, some momentum was happening and J Dub, I think, got to the line like six times that quarter. And it was just getting to the rack, drawing contact, like the stuff that you expect from big time players. Like, all right, this is how I calm the team down. I'm not like, okay, making some dribble, dribble, dribble, step back. It's like, no, I'm getting the rock in and around the basket, or I'm going towards the basket on the dribble and I'm getting to the line. I thought that did calm and settled him. And that's a thing that nobody else on that team can do outside of Shay, right? Like have possessions where it's not the most crisp, perfect ball movement. It's just, all right. I'm just better than the guy in front of me or on my hip right now, and I'm creating. I thought this was like a really good J Dub game. I just thought that the Thunder, like you guys said, the offense in the fourth was just stuck in the mud, man. And I think you got to give credit to the Pacers because they were executing defense at an insanely high level. Again. We. We know what N. Smith and Nemhar do on a day to day Miles Turner in the fourth quarter. He was goddamn Bill Russell Halliburton Yo, I'm sorry. Halliburton's defense, man, deserves some level of respect. And I know we're probably going to get into it too, because that was the chatter that I was most paying attention to coming out of game two. It's like, ah, see, three points. See, he barely took any shots. Oh, he's not a superstar.
- [11:36]
Justin Duverrier
Blah, blah, blah.
- [11:37]
Isaiah Blakely
I'm like, guys, relax, bro. Like, he's been doing this this entire playoffs. Like, guys, chill. And I thought his aggression, the way he was just like hunting for his shots. And then in the fourth, where I think things really got broken wide open for Indy's offense, the Thunder did not know what to do on that Miles Turner pick and roll. It was just all bad options. Like Halle had to floater whenever he wanted to. If they went under, he had to pull up three. Like that pocket pass was there, working for Miles to catch at the foul line. That. That's when I was like, okc's in trouble this quarter because they can't do anything with that pick and roll. And yeah, Halle deserved his flowers for that.
- [12:18]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I think the issue was not only were there, what, two to three days in between finals games, and so we had a whole lot of time in order to parse through whatever happened. And then the natural inclination is just like, star player had X many points, he needs to. He was either great or he didn't play well enough. If you watched the Pacers thus far, this is just kind of how he plays. And the Pacers success largely derives from him. But I guess this was the bounce back game that everyone could probably agree was pretty awesome. 22, 11 and 9 overall. Just like a complete performance on both ends, as was mentioned. Rob, I guess we could say that Tyrese Halliburton is not having a down year officially at this point.
- [12:55]
Waz
Oh, wow. That's very big of you to finally, finally come to those terms, Justin.
- [12:59]
Rob Mahoney
Well, no, I'm saying big of Trenton Wofford. We need to tell our boy on the net he's not having a down year.
- [13:05]
Isaiah Blakely
This is true.
- [13:06]
Waz
This is true. Look, I hate for trend and Watford to take L's on this podcast, but this one he's got to take all the way, like a hundred percent. We look, the overrated chatter has been out there. Wiser rate. Like the. Is he aggressive enough? Chatter has been out there the last couple of days in particular. I think this game from Halliburton is a great case study in what we're talking about when we talk about stars being aggressive. Because yes, some of it is Tyrese Halliburton. A pass first player needs to turn down the part of his brain that wants to pass a little bit. Like, he needs to turn that part down. He needs to be willing to settle for some shots that are not the best shot, but in these circumstances, against this defense are a good enough shot, are a great enough shot in some instances. I also thought his teammates did him a great service and Rick Carlisle did him a great service by starting a bunch of possessions in other places. How many possessions Start with Andrew Nembart, Start with Pascal Siakam with the intent of rerouting to Tyrese Halliburton with momentum, with an advantage, with a switch. He can attack. Like the whole point of attacking a team like the Thunders, if they're going to switch this much. Guess what, Shay, if you switch on to Pascal Siakam, you're going to get posted Isaiah Hardenstein, if you switch on to Tyrese Halliburton, we're going to then run you through a bunch of action in ways that you're not used to doing. And I thought Halliburton took incredible advantage of those situations as much as anything. And like, that's tactical, right? Like, that's a team level decision on how to help him be a more aggressive player. And he. It really paid off. Not just for him, but then in him getting to the lane and spraying out to everyone else and playing Indiana Pacers basketball.
- [14:35]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I piloted this take on Rob the other day was. So he's going to have to pretend like he hasn't heard me go through this at all. But I want to get your thoughts first and foremost. It seems like part of why we can't accept Halliburton for being like a true blue superstar, in large part is because the two things he does well are. Are the two things over the past decade or so we've kind of been pushing against, like, he's a pass for his point guard who gets guys involved first and foremost isn't really much of a scorer. Well, like over the past decade, our scorers are our point guards to the point that we don't even call them point guards anymore. They're ball handlers, right? They're offensive engines.
- [15:11]
Justin Duverrier
It's.
- [15:11]
Isaiah Blakely
Yeah, it's.
- [15:12]
Rob Mahoney
It's Luka, it's Harden. It's also like the clutch stuff.
- [15:14]
Isaiah Blakely
It's Shay.
- [15:15]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it's Shay. Yeah, Perfect example. It's also like the clutch stuff, though, which, like, we know is like, wonky and we have all of our nerdy friends and Even us being, like, clutch, you know, small sample. But it does feel like he has. If there was a clutch gene, a clutch gene. Because it's not just him, it's his team. And so it's almost like we. It's like he is a throwback in a certain sense. A lot of the things that we used to talk about and used to value in stars, Steve Nash or even Kobe with the clutch, but we almost worked against it for a decade that we're just. We're taking a while to catch up to it again.
- [15:48]
Isaiah Blakely
So Halle to me is in the Steve Nash and Chris Paul, before the knee completely gave out on him. People don't remember this version of Chris Paul because it was so long ago, but he would be the consummate point God, so to speak, for three quarters. And then when the clutch would come, this dude would just start scoring every single possession. That was like, his entire mo. Same with Nash. Like, he just wouldn't be aggressive hunting his shot for the entire game. And then when it was the fourth quarter, he would just be like, yo, soon as I come off this Amari screen, I'm firing, you know, Chris Paul. Same. Like, I think Halliburton has a lot of that in him, where he just feels like until it's like this last, last minute, he's not going to spend the game just aggressively looking for his own shot. And even when he's not looking for his own shot, just staying on the ball.
- [16:42]
Waz
Yeah.
- [16:42]
Isaiah Blakely
And I think, again, like, what people just got to respect is that the unpredictability of the way the Pacers play is an asset. The fact that it's not the same action for four freaking quarters. Like the Luka Doncic Mavs, for instance. Right. Or Trey Young back in. Back in the days. Like, the same exact offense for four quarters, you don't let the defense look at it with for four quarters. And so, again, it puts them in a bad position in a clutch where they're like, who exactly is about to take over? Like, when this guy catches it on the wing, when Neymar catches it on the wing, he's a legitimate threat to put his head down and go all the way to the basket on his own or to pull up, who knows? Like, you don't know. That is so stressful for a defense, man. Whereas, like, you know, again, Caruso touches the ball in the fourth quarter, I know he's not putting his head down and taking it to the rack. He's just not, you know, same with Lou Dort. Lou Dort is not going to dribble into a crowd in the fourth quarter.
- [17:50]
Waz
Yes.
- [17:50]
Isaiah Blakely
You know, like they're just way more predictable than the Pacers are. And I think Halliburton is why, like the, the nature of his game allows for these guys to step up in big moments because they're doing it all game long.
- [18:04]
Waz
It's so true. I, I think the finishing piece of that is some of what you're, you're outlining was in terms of that Steve Nash, Chris Paul level. Halliburton absolutely has the elements of those guys games. I don't think he has the full Steve Nash against Dallas in the playoffs. Go for 48 game. Like we're going to let anyone else, like we're going to dare you to beat us and lock down every other option. I don't know that he has that gear in him yet and frankly the Thunder aren't challenging him in that particular way. But if you're going to keep a defense like OKC is off balance, being aggressive on offense is a huge part of that. And you could see it over the course of this game in terms of unlocking, I would say the pocket pass in particular. Halberton's timing on the pocket pass is so precise and so great, especially if you buy even for a second that he's going to pull up for the floater and you could see the Thunder getting kind of pulled into that possibility that okay, like he's coming out looking for this drive in a way that he we're not used to. We're going to, we're going to stay with him for a half beat longer and then now all of a sudden that Miles Turner pass is right there for the taking every time because you put that seed of doubt in the Thunder's mind in the first and second. Really I would say in the second quarter like that's when everything for Indy snapped into place. We haven't even talked about the bench yet. My brain is screaming Ben Matherin at the top of its brain, lungs and T whether whether this was the TJ McConnell game or the Ben Matheran game, it was like an all out brawl to see which one would survive.
- [19:24]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, so it's good to have a point guard. It's good to also have a backup point guard, especially one who gets five steals in an NBA game. There was like an 114 run they had where I think virtually all of that came via TJ Whether it was with the pass or the scoring opportunities he had in this game. I mean was as someone who won the Inaugural white NBA player American draft. You have to be proud of this one.
- [19:49]
Isaiah Blakely
I'm telling you. I found. I found religion on TJ McConnell last playoffs where I was like, come on, he's not going to do this against playoff defenses. And he just did it against every single playoff defense he came up against. And now it's the Thunder who are the best playoff defense since playoff defenses were invented. And he's doing it against them again. And a lot of it is just he's constantly getting into the teeth of the defense with the dribble. And like, you shouldn't feel like TJ McConnell is going to be some major threat while he's in the lane with a live dribble. But, like, it's natural to be like, hold on, this guy's three feet from the basket right now with a live dribble. Like, this is a problem. And the defenses is reacting. Like, at one point, I forget, he drove to the lane and the defense lost somebody on a backdoor cut and he just dumped it off to him. I'm just like, TJ McConnell is creating wide open dunks off of his dribble penetration. That's insane.
- [20:49]
Waz
It was nuts. And you're was right. We're all finding faith together. You know, I think that, look, there's a lot of reasons to doubt T.J. mcConnell over the years for exactly the reasons you described. He is a classic, like, run around a lot, sometimes accomplish a lot, sometimes accomplish little, or some matchups would be very tough for him, frankly, in a way that the first two games of the series were. But here we are, you know, united in our faith. Father, son and T.J. mcConnell. Has there been a more coaches son game in NBA history than three inbounds passes?
- [21:21]
Isaiah Blakely
You were listening to the freaking ESPN broadcast, bro. God bless Doris Burke, but she literally did that. He's 6:2 in white. Like, it's a miracle that he's in the NBA. She said, he's only 6 2. I'm like, Yo, Bruh, he's really doing it. Like the coach's son and the moxie and the craft, and he's pesky. And it's like, yo, calling an NBA player pesky is hilarious, bro.
- [21:45]
Rob Mahoney
Well, and we wonder why Tyrese Halliburton's dad had the gumption to go up to Giannis after a game one time. It's because whenever these parents are in the crowd, they show them 90 fucking times and they become pseudo celebrities all of a sudden and. And they're probably feeling theirself enough to the way they think if they have enough liquid courage, they can go up to Giannis and be like, what the fuck is up now? Don't do that, Mr. McConnell. Okay? We don't need that.
- [22:09]
Isaiah Blakely
Yeah, T.J. mcConnell's dad is. He got a lot of run. But listen, TJ Was killing. He deserved it in the first half and the second half. He had two great, amazing stints in this game. And obviously, Ben Matheran, you know, the Haitian sensation, he was just magnificent. He was. He was ins. It was crazy what he was doing out there.
- [22:30]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. So I think the big picture brain in me wants to be like, oh, well, all of this depth, it just works in concert. And so that a team like the Pacers that likes to push the pace is going to have the healthy bodies, the live bodies, in order to just keep hitting you with waves. Right. The strategy of it all. Like, I am guilty of looking to those sorts of things as much as possible, but then it's just good when guys just play out of their fucking gourds coming off the bench. TJ Was one of them. Ben was another one of them. Rob, did you think that when Ben Matheran came into the league and he was saying how much LeBron needed to prove that he could play at Ben Matheran's level, that this was in store for him?
- [23:09]
Waz
You know, I didn't think it was going to quite be this, but I'm glad to be proven wrong on this and many other things. 27 points on 12 shots for Ben Matheran. Like, are you fucking kidding me? It's 22 minutes to have.
- [23:21]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [23:21]
Waz
In. In 22 minutes. And here's. Here's where I am with Ben Matheran, because his journey through the Pacers system has been fascina. Obviously was injured during last year's playoff run, so he didn't have the quite the same experience as some of these other guys did. Stylistically has been a bit like, on a slightly different beat, I would say, than many of the Pacers regulars and mainstays. And for that reason, I just don't think Rick Carlisle trusts him in the way that he trusts Andrew Nemhardt or Aaron Neesmith or even sometimes Ben Shepard, for that matter, which makes me feel like Ben Matheran. To me, this version of Ben Matheran is the more evolved Jonathan Kuminga. Like, this is the contrast of styles. This is like. And I say that, not like. It's not that Jonathan Kaminga is a wildly more talented player or Ben Matheran is a wildly more talented player, but you can tell that one of these two guys is a little bit more in tune with what his team is doing. Not fully in tune because if he were fully in tune he would be another plug and replace Indiana Pacer. But the reason Ben Mathurin is valuable to Indiana is because he is not exactly like everyone else. Because he's going to come into this game because he's going to come into other games and and get to the line a ton on one night, be a commanding on ball force on another night, be a little bit out of the loop sometimes, but can take over a game in a way that a Ben Shepard never will be able to. And that is worth its weight in gold in the NBA Finals. Clearly like this, you cannot replicate that kind of value coming off the bench.
- [24:41]
Isaiah Blakely
Yeah. What Rob is talking about is Indy's frenetic, crazy hyper movement, hyper fast pace of play. Style of play doesn't fit with like how Ben Mathen has traditionally been, which is just a traditional shooting guard. Methodically.
- [24:58]
Rob Mahoney
He's a six man. Like he's a class six man bench scorer.
- [25:01]
Isaiah Blakely
Yes, yes. Break you off the dribble, call, call some pick and rolls every now and again. But I'm looking to score every time. Like I think today or tonight he was like, you know what, I want to catch the ball going downhill, but I don't have to do it starting from 30ft, I on a dribble handoff, I can keep the defender in jail coming off of a pin down as the defender is behind my back. It's like all of these positions you fight to get into off of the dribble, he's getting into it off of the ball and that's obviously more in tune with what Indiana wants to do. And the guy is very skilled, very athletic. He's a good, talented player. And it just shown tonight, man, some of these and ones. Then he's getting to the lane and finishing with the left and making spot up threes. I'm like, this is, this is insane what this guy is doing.
- [26:00]
Rob Mahoney
I think the point we're kind of circling here is that yes, the Pacers are unpredictable because of their playing style. A lot of the freelancing they're able to do is because of the pace and Haliburton, all this other stuff, but they also slot into more traditional roles than what the Thunder have, which is kind of like the prime example of a modern team where yes, Shay does a lot of it, but then you have a lot of two way guys around it. A lot of guys who are a little bit more Programmatic and how they'll go about their offense to the point. Rob, where I credit Isaiah Blakely, our producer, who talked about this before we got on here. It's like, at a certain point, if Shea is getting mauled, like, who's around to dribble? Like, how many actually guys do they have? Like, Mather. Isaiah Joe is a guy that I brought up as a potential replacement for that. He only played four business in this game, hit both of his shots, but, like, he gives away so much that they tend to shorten the rotation with guys that are centers like Hartenstein or Caruso, and, like, their wing defenders. And so it's like, where is that coming from if it's not J Dub and when Chet is really in the flow of things.
- [26:58]
Isaiah Blakely
But can I ask y' all, is Isaiah Joe getting killed on defense that badly? No, it doesn't feel like it.
- [27:05]
Waz
I thought he. I thought he was fine.
- [27:07]
Isaiah Blakely
Like, his ability to, like, keep the defense pretty stretched, man, and worried. Talk about that mental attrition. He's one of those guys, like, look, Lou Dort made some threes today. Caruso made one in the corner. The Pacers, like, it sucks when that happens as a defense, when it's like, this is kind of what we wanted and it went against us. Like, that's a bad feeling. But that's not the same as Isaiah Joe making two straight three pointers in terms of the panic. So I'm just asking y' all, like, is he that bad on defense?
- [27:36]
Waz
I actually think he's been okay on defense for most of the season. Like, not every night, but by and large, has been fine. And in this game, I didn't really have a problem with how he was playing. I didn't understand why he got yanked out of the rotation for the second half, other than clearly, the Thunder were trying to buckle down, and we're trying to find minutes for their best guys. Right. Like, it's one thing if you're trading off Isaiah Joe minutes for Lou Dord minutes. It's another thing if you're doing it so you can stretch out Shea a little bit further. And I. I can understand the logic of that in a game like this. I just. I don't know that it paid off in the way that the Thunder needed it to.
- [28:07]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, the Shay thing is the big part of it, because he did get 42 minutes in this game. They had the extra rest, and so maybe that was just baked into their plan. And as we've seen with the Thunder, like, when they have a plan they tend to stick with it even though they have optionality within the roster to turn to certain guys more than the others. So we'll see. The other thing I wanted to bring up to you guys just briefly is that the Thunder definitely racked up some turnovers. They ended up with 19. Indy had 14. But I feel like the disparity was. Was bigger during the course of the game before. I got a hand toward the end there. So I forgot who had this stat, but I saw a kick around Twitter apologies. I usually try to write down who comes up with it, but 72% of the playoff games this postseason have been dictated by turnovers, which might be the case historically. Like, the team that's executing better tends to win. On the other hand, it does feel more important in this series in particular. We talked about it coming into it. Obviously, both teams take care of the ball. The Thunder get so much out of creating turnovers themselves. Do you think there's anything more to it, Rob? Do you think that, like, the fact that, like, is offense just getting to a point where it's. It's so crisp that the mistakes are just popping a little bit more?
- [29:15]
Waz
Honestly, I would guess this is something that kind of comes out in the noise a little bit. I think it's probably a little bit more randomness. I would guess it's probably, as you said, in line with historical data. I also think it's weighted heavily by the fact that we are now in the NBA Finals and the two teams here are the Thunder and the Pacers.
- [29:30]
Isaiah Blakely
I was just gonna say that, like.
- [29:32]
Waz
These are two teams. Like, their styles are predicated on dominating the turnover margin, and therefore league, like, overall for the playoffs is going to look that way. But I think if, you know, if the Nuggets had gone on a deep playoff run, maybe it would look a little bit differently. If the Knicks had gone on a longer run, maybe it would look a little bit differently. I think some of that's just like, that's how these two teams play. They are incredibly successful with it for their personnel. I don't know that it means that anyone would be or it has to be the dominant style in the league right now.
- [29:59]
Isaiah Blakely
So in the second quarter, I had it down. I was like, oh, the Pacers are finally getting their run game going, which feels like the first time all series that that had happened. And we're talking about two quarters into the third game of the series. It's almost like, you know, if you're like watching the Chiefs and they finally hit a 40 yard pass. It's like, oh, okay, they're getting big plays now. And so yeah, they, I think the turnovers helped unlock that. But, but again, the Pacers were doing it off of makes and like, man, this one, it was this one play where Toppin just got behind the freaking defense. Somehow he caught it maybe five feet into half court, got behind the defense, everybody reacted. I think he ended up dumping it off for a basket or whatever. But I'm just like, man, this is the things that I've been watching these guys do all playoffs long that it's finally happening against the Thunder, who, you know, God bless him for the first two games, did a good job of keeping these guys in the half court. Today was the first time it felt like the Pacers was like, all right, we're getting into our type of game again.
- [31:06]
Waz
I mean, one big part of that too as far as like, what makes the Pacers so successful in crunch time? What makes like the turnover margins such a dominant stat in this year's playoffs? Like, when you get into the ends of these games in particular, Indy just does not turn the ball over. And so then it's not a mystery why they're able to go on these games. Game changing runs, they're getting shots on goal every single time. And they may be successful, they're a great shot making team. Maybe sometimes they'll miss, but like they're going to turn you over enough times to get out and run and make something of it. They're going to turn you over often enough, even if you are the Oklahoma City Thunder, that they're going to stay in games, they're going to come back in games, they're going to turn a series, they're going to make it to one. Like this is just who these guys are at this point.
- [31:46]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it's crazy because as miraculous as it is and as magical as this run has been, it's kind of all repeatable. And like the, the way that they've come back has, has looked like the other games that we've seen. And so at this point it's a miraculous formula that they just have down that they could just turn to this one. I guess they didn't even need the miraculous part because they kind of had this game in hand for most of it, or the very least had their hand on the throttle for a lot of this. And so credit to them, man, they, they definitely punched the Thunder in the mouth in the game that they needed to.
- [32:17]
Isaiah Blakely
Dude, let's not even. The point of miraculous is hilarious at this Point again. Cause at one point I thought one of the shots that kind of blew this thing open was Niecemith in the corner where he does the catch, where he barely puts his arm, freaking down. He immediately gets up and launches it and just splashes it. I'm just like, bro, this is what, like, is it. This is happening again. The cross court, like it's not a miracle.
- [32:49]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. The cross court to Halliburton to Niecemith in the shooting pocket. Gets it up within like a split second. I was like, game over. They're so in rhythm. Like there's no coming back from that.
- [32:59]
Waz
Well, let's take this opportunity, as you alluded to, Justin, to christen these Pacers properly. We, we've consulted the authorities, which are the group chat listeners, I gotta say the. The variety of names, some of which were truly unhinged, some of which required paragraphs of explanation. I'm here to tell you that's a little bit too intricate for the exercise of what we're trying to accomplish here, which is we need something snappy. We need a. We believe warriors. We need maybe at most in terms of difficulty, a 7 seconds or less Suns. I would like to throw out to you first, just for fun, the variety of pop culture oriented names that people threw at us to describe the Indiana Pacers because we do work here@theringer.com the Sur Vivers. How do we feel about the survivors?
- [33:44]
Isaiah Blakely
Apostrophe c Creative.
- [33:46]
Rob Mahoney
But you really have to. To emphasize the sir in order to get there. Good thinking.
- [33:51]
Waz
You really do. Again, I think it's maybe a step too far. There were some that are like people trying to riff on Goonies and the never say die thing of Goonies. I think that's too much. Many, many people suggested nicknames oriented to the Leonardo DiCaprio movie the Revenant. In light of our conversation about being post death. I think that might be too much. And I say that as someone who enjoys that movie and Leo's career very much. Cornyceps. What do you think, Justin? How do you feel about corny steps?
- [34:24]
Rob Mahoney
I love it, but that's even too weird for me.
- [34:29]
Waz
We got several the P1000s after Terminator 2. I see the vision, but again, I think it's a little too much. The Payback Pacers. I kind of. Now we're. Now we're getting somewhere, you know, now we're. Now we're getting into the right range, but ultimately I think we've got to step outside of that realm or if we're going to do Pop culture. I think Children of the Corn is still the one to beat as far as that goes.
- [34:48]
Isaiah Blakely
Otherwise, I think Children of the Corn is my favorite.
- [34:52]
Waz
I think got some legs. Many recommendations for the Possum Pacers, which I do think has some legs.
- [35:03]
Isaiah Blakely
But possum is such a.
- [35:04]
Waz
That's the argument. That's the thing.
- [35:06]
Rob Mahoney
There's an negative commentation to possums.
- [35:10]
Waz
This is beautiful basketball. Too beautiful for a possum. Laying on the road too, which is a.
- [35:14]
Isaiah Blakely
Too ugly.
- [35:16]
Waz
I just find myself coming back to Pacemakers, though. I think Pacemakers might be not ideal, but perfectly evocative for what we need from this Pacers team. Can. Can we do any better than Pacemakers?
- [35:26]
Isaiah Blakely
Pacemakers and Children of the Corn are my two favorites, to be honest. Do we need a Survivors to the survivors?
- [35:34]
Waz
Yeah, maybe we'll throw up a poll. We'll throw up a poll on social.
- [35:37]
Isaiah Blakely
Post, back page, sure. But like, yeah, too good.
- [35:44]
Rob Mahoney
So Pacemakers, I kind of like it.
- [35:46]
Waz
I think so.
- [35:46]
Isaiah Blakely
Pacemakers.
- [35:47]
Rob Mahoney
Okay. That's the one I would go for. But yeah, maybe.
- [35:50]
Isaiah Blakely
We got a lot of heart, Justin.
- [35:52]
Rob Mahoney
You're goddamn right they do. In the heartland. They've got some heart. All right, anything else from this game or should we turn the page here to.
- [36:00]
Isaiah Blakely
I think we got. Chad Holmgren was really good in the first half. Had a nice third quarter. It was just like. I was like, man, when Chet becomes this guy on a regular basis. Yeah, watch out, bro. That was exciting to watch.
- [36:17]
Waz
One little throwaway thing that I think could have changed the game maybe a little bit. How was that? Not a flagrant foul on Aaron Neesmith down the stretch.
- [36:24]
Rob Mahoney
The dick punch?
- [36:25]
Isaiah Blakely
No, I think.
- [36:26]
Waz
No. The two handed shoulder, like the horse collar almost.
- [36:30]
Isaiah Blakely
This is my thing. He didn't know which side the ball was going to be on, so he went for both sides.
- [36:37]
Waz
I guess that's a play. I guess that's the justification.
- [36:40]
Isaiah Blakely
I Regular foul, man. Like Caruso landed on his two feet just fine. Like it didn't cause him to have some bad, horrible landing. Like, bro, play on, man.
- [36:51]
Waz
I'm soft. I get it.
- [36:54]
Rob Mahoney
Is it too soon to have the conversation of whether or not this is the most surprising title of our lifetime? Do we need to save that or.
- [37:01]
Waz
Well, we need to. We need to save content. So like don't burn through all of our good content now.
- [37:07]
Rob Mahoney
I've got like two days between games. I'm living out of a hotel, man. I've got so much fucking time. I have 20 segments if you really want them.
- [37:15]
Waz
If you Ask me to outline my dream scenario. It's lock Justin Barrier in a room and make him dream up segments about the Indiana Pacers. So we're really living my best life.
- [37:24]
Isaiah Blakely
So. But. But what do you. You guys. Have you guys changed your minds about the series?
- [37:30]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, about who would win.
- [37:31]
Isaiah Blakely
Oh, sounds like y' all preparing for a title. I don't know, a title parade in downtown.
- [37:39]
Rob Mahoney
I like how Waz has flipped this around where he's now. Mr. Pacer.
- [37:44]
Isaiah Blakely
I'm the only one that thought this could go six or seven. I'm not Mr. Pacer. Yeah, like, I'm not. I just literally didn't think the Thunder would roll them. That's it. Like, I just. I've been beaten into submission by the Pacers. I got too much respect for these guys.
- [37:59]
Rob Mahoney
That's true. I could. I could definitely see it going seven now. Regardless of who wins, I would still lean toward the Thunder. They still have a ton of moves that I think that they can really turn to here. It's like, it's not like they're getting dominated. Just like, it's a couple dial turns and just like keeping the game out of reach long enough so the Pacers can't do this. Right. Like, game two is repeatable.
- [38:21]
Isaiah Blakely
I think they got it. I think they got to stop being cute. How many shots did Shea take tonight? Like 19. Again, I repeat, that should be closer to 30 in my opinion. See, this is my opinion.
- [38:33]
Waz
I like, don't get me wrong, Shake. If you can get Shay more shots, you should do that. He's an amazing player. I thought he was working for it and trying to get to those shots. And Andrew Nemart and Ben Shepard and some spots. Aaron Neesmith are really the first two guys were just all over him. And I thought they played phenomenal one on one defense in a way that made it hard for Shea to take 30.
- [38:52]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think you guys saw and to Wise's point earlier, like, when Chet clicks into place, this team hits another gear. And so one of the ways that we can really open things up for him, we saw some too big going down the stretch. I almost wondered if they had to go even smaller at the end of the game. It's just being able to optimize. Chet seems like it's going to be the decisive thing of this entire series because he had like six free throws in that first quarter. I was like, is he the new Foul Martian? Do we really need to reroute the narrative in order to get to him? Because he was getting the line on some kind of shitty shots. But it's just he changes everything for them at this point. So he almost is the canary in the coal mine for the series.
- [39:30]
Waz
There is a fascinating thing at play with the stars in this series. You know, we haven't talked about Pascal Siaka much. He I thought had a tremendous game too.
- [39:37]
Isaiah Blakely
He's the one that balanced them in the first half though. They, they came out shaky as hell. Shaky as hell. They call that first time out and it's Yakim and them just. They just finally like settled in.
- [39:49]
Waz
Yes. And I think look who sets the floor for both of these teams for okc. I think Shay's excellence one on one and the defense make that, make it like they never have bad like terrible games. I think they're always going to be at a certain level of competence because of those two things. For the Pacers, I think Siakam sets the floor like he is the steady piece and Halliburton clicking and his style and the momentum of the greater offense is what breaks the ceiling and lets them blow the top off. The thing for the Thunder, their floor is incredibly high. It lets them dominate in the regular season. It lets them beat a ton of playoff opponents. But you're right, Justin, like Chet is the kind of guy who raises their ceiling. A great J Dub game is the thing that raises their ceiling. Like they need those sorts of elements to be their best possible selves and we're just not seeing them quite consistently enough to beat opponent as good as these Indiana Pacers.
- [40:40]
Rob Mahoney
After that first quarter I was, I was pocking take about how Chet is the like the prime representation of the evolution a basketball. But we'll, we'll get to that next time when they actually have a good game. When he plays an entire good game.
- [40:51]
Justin Duverrier
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Isaiah Blakely
Faster.
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- [41:47]
Rob Mahoney
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Basketball fans know that a great assist can change the game and there's no greater assist than one from State Farm. State Farm is here to help you navigate the right coverage for your home car and more. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there State Farm Bloomington, IL coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair Summer is almost here. The days are getting longer and warmer, which means it's time to update your outdoor space and make it feel more like yours. And I did the same exact thing because with Wayfair, I finally got to fill the spot in my little like gazebo little outdoor patio area which had been looking pretty ragged for about a year since I moved into my place. Used Wayfair. Got a beautiful patio set with furniture, got the couch going, got the chairs going, got the the coffee table all in one. Very cost effective and also pretty stylish as well. Came very quickly. So all in all, I really liked my Wayfair experience. And with Wayfair, there's something for every style in every home, no matter your space or budget. Wayfair makes it easy to tackle your summer home goals with endless inspiration for every space and budget, including the outdoors. So don't wait until summer's in full swing. Shop a huge selection of outdoor furniture online this summer. Get outside with wayfair. Head to wayfair.com right now. That's W A Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home so we'll turn now to the off season because as we've been going through these finals feels like something's happening every day. To the point where today I feel like I got 30 news alerts about various coaches that just turned down the New York Knickerbockers, unfortunately. So I came. I put together three headlines based off of the TikTok pieces, the feature stories that Ramona Shelburne could be writing when these events happen. I want you guys to tell me one. Like how likely is the scenario? And two, how likely is the piece that fouls? I do think we need to start first and foremost with those wait Wait, wait, hold on.
- [44:03]
Waz
Let's. Let's. Let's stop right there. What is the distinction between the two things we are rating?
- [44:10]
Rob Mahoney
You just got to tell me if you like it or you don't like. We're going to talk about and then you can tell me if you think. Think the headline is funny. Yeah. Don't ask questions about my bits because they fall apart incredibly. I just think they're funny. I have no one to put them against. And then all of a sudden, yeah, so Knicks were turned down. So they asked and. But for permission, but were ultimately declined permission to interview. I have five head coaches in the NBA. Just. I think all of these reports came today or over the past few days. Chris Finch, Imi Adoka, Jason Kidd, Quinn Snyder, Billy Donovan. It reminded me of like, the athletic when they first popped up. And like, they were just hiring everybody from every newspaper.
- [44:52]
Isaiah Blakely
Except this is the opposite.
- [44:54]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Turned down because unfortunately, yeah, the New York Post is not the one. The place they want to go to. So the headline I have down here is accepting the scallenge colon. Why Brian Scalabrini's street ball bullying proved he's built for New York. So they are turned down by so many people, they have to turn to Brian Scalabrini. And the lead to this piece was all about how he took it to George the Messiah and street ball. The scallon is what he used to call it. And that showed his tough mentality in order to take the job with the Knicks. Turn them around almost like Eddie Whoopi Goldberg style.
- [45:40]
Waz
I need you to walk me through your process.
- [45:44]
Isaiah Blakely
He's saying that the coaching search is going to get so desperate they have to do something like get a Brian Scalabrini. I think the desperation is just going to be an assistant who you don't have to ask permission to talk to. Like, they're just gonna have to hire some assistant that people respect and like and move on. And again, this is why I thought they should use like the New York might to go actually get somebody. Not be like, permission to talk to your coach. What you. I'm Ime Adoka. I'm freaking, you know, Chris Finch, I'm whoever. You gonna interview me if I'm good enough to take your nick job? Like, no. Like, it doesn't. Like, bro, you were supposed to go there and be like, yo, I want you really badly, and here's how we're gonna get you out of fricking Minnesota or Houston. This isn't some. Oh, let's just let the Knicks talk to Our guys for the.
- [46:41]
Rob Mahoney
Like, what?
- [46:42]
Isaiah Blakely
And if you're the guy, if you're the coach, like, why am I doing some. Why am I begging you to work at your fucking company when I got a good ass job right now? You sound crazy. Don't ask me. Like, what are you talking about, wise?
- [46:59]
Waz
You're 100% right. Like, you don't ask Denzel to audition on tape. Like, that's not what this process is.
- [47:04]
Isaiah Blakely
Supposed to be for your little off Broadway crappy ass production. Are you shitting me?
- [47:09]
Waz
That said, Wise, correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like a pod or two ago you did go on an extended rant about how what Mark Dagnault's doing is cute, but you got to level up and go do it with the Knicks for it to mean anything. Am I misremembering your take?
- [47:22]
Isaiah Blakely
No. Yeah, for sure. But you know what I mean, though. It's just a monkey operation. Like, a few OKC people got mad about, like, oh, the Knicks aren't the big time, or whatever. Like, it was a freaking joke. Get over it, Prairie people. Anyway, but you're right.
- [47:36]
Rob Mahoney
They're doing it in public.
- [47:37]
Isaiah Blakely
The point is not that the Knicks aren't big time. The point is, like, you just fired a coach. Okay, I. I didn't get fired by my job. My job likes me. I'm. It's like, you just fired a coach. You the one that's in need of help right now. I have a job. You know, I just got to the conference finals. If I'm finched. I just took, you know, Houston to the playoffs and a nice seating and all of that young team mad trade assets, look like you show up to.
- [48:08]
Rob Mahoney
Your night pass every time. Yeah, you have a job and we like your job.
- [48:13]
Isaiah Blakely
Like, the approach makes no sense. It's not a job interview. It's a. Get in touch with these people's agents, tell them, like, yo, you see what Houston's paying you? We gonna pay the hell out of you, and you gonna get to be rich as hell in New York. You down with that number that we got for you? All right, cool. Now we go deal with your owner and how we pry you from the owner and grease the skids that way. Like, this is. This is crazy what they're doing right now.
- [48:44]
Rob Mahoney
It reminds me a lot of when, like, a reporter asked a question in the press conference, which nobody, like a trained coach or athlete isn't going to respond with, with honesty, right? To get the actual thing that's happening, it has to be behind Closed doors because no one's going to admit that publicly. But for whatever reason, the Knicks went on this very public campaign of asking every coach, and obviously every team is going to take that as an opportunity to go run to shams or whomever and be like, oh, we turned them down them, we got our coaches back. And so if anything, it's so crazy, I thought that this was like a way to go get somebody else, that they actually wanted that this was a smoke screen to like to distract people from their actual.
- [49:26]
Isaiah Blakely
You're saying this is like a Bobby Hurley speaking of Woj, right? Yes, yes, Danny Hurley. Excuse me, Sorry.
- [49:35]
Rob Mahoney
But you're right. I, I, I thought there was another move coming and maybe it will, but it might just be the Knicks kind of just doing this off the seat of their pants.
- [49:43]
Waz
Yeah, what do you know, Jim, Jim Dolan's not playing four dimensional chess. I think you're right. You're onto something though, Justin, with the reporting, like daisy chaining that's happening here where this is a too many guys problem. We don't usually think about coaching searches in those terms, but like you can do this with maybe one to two employed head coaches. You can't do it with six. You just, you just can't keep going around the circle trying to poach head coaches because teams will leak it because they don't have any vested interest in protecting you. So like, I just don't understand this other than through the lens of this is Knicks entitlement, which is very different from Lakers exceptionalism, which is, at least on an institutional level, kind of earned. This isn't even earned. This is just thinking that you deserve those coaches more than other teams do.
- [50:29]
Isaiah Blakely
So here's an example of how this stuff happens. Generally. Freaking Tim Connolly, ok? He's in Denver with his cheap ass ownership. A Rod and them want to make a splash. They're like, bruh, we about to pay you like a motherfucker, okay? He had just signed his deal with Denver knowing he was underpaid. And he was like, yo, guys like, you give me the raise like a rod and them want me really bad. But y' all give me the raise is cool. And the ownership was like, nah, bitch, you just signed this kick rocks. We had a handshake like we just shook on this. I don't care what a Rod and them said. So that's how you do it. You go find, you identify the guy, you offer him a shit ton of money and then you like wait for their freaking employee to be like, no, no, no, I'm not. You know what? I'll pay you more. Or you know what? Yo, you disloyal as fuck. Go, Go be a whore and take the money, okay? Like, that's how this game works. They don't go over there and say, permission to speak to Tim Connolly, please. No, tell Tim Connolly you bout to pay him and let his representatives do the rest.
- [51:44]
Rob Mahoney
I gotta be honest, if you're a coach that hasn't been asked yet, do you start to feel bad? Like, if you're Chauncey Billups and you have not been asked for, like, permission to interview, like, you're like, what? What is wrong with me? What did I do?
- [51:58]
Waz
Maybe that's the real move. Give every other coach an existential crisis in the process.
- [52:04]
Isaiah Blakely
Crazy.
- [52:05]
Rob Mahoney
This is crazy.
- [52:06]
Isaiah Blakely
And you know, I've been seeing the stuff where people like, oh, this feels like a Dolan move. This feels like Dolan. Like, you know, he was off doing whatever the hell he was doing. Now the team is having the most success in 25 years. He's like, ah, I could taste it. Let me get back involved. And like, I'm like, I don't know, like, Tibbs did have his shortcomings, blah, blah, blah. But like, it's now this, this process, how it's playing out is feeling like a Dolan situation.
- [52:32]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. So we'll see. I mean, ultimately, the Lakers want a title after an air quote, settling for Frank. Frank Vogel. If there's talent there, someone is going to be able to go in there and probably have an opportunity. It's just not going to win the headlines. Yeah.
- [52:45]
Waz
Yes.
- [52:46]
Rob Mahoney
So I assume this will. They will turn to an assistant at some point that they know and love, and he will take the job.
- [52:52]
Isaiah Blakely
Frankly, nuts.
- [52:53]
Rob Mahoney
Maybe he'll do just as good or better job tips. We'll see. Next one I have up here is Kevin Durant. The chase is officially on because Shams had a report today suggesting that KD and Rich Kleinman, and specifically boardroom CEO Rich Kleinman, have met multiple times over the past week and are sifting through trade scenarios as if they haven't been doing that for weeks, for months. But I, at a certain point, they have obviously been weighing certain teams. The teams that in air quotes have expressed interest in Durant mainly feature Houston, San Antonio, Miami, Minnesota, New York. Obviously other teams have probably inquired, but he names those teams probably for a reason. I have as the headline, the Power of Pop, Sheila Kelly's with a side of salsa and unfinished Finished Business Colon inside Kevin Durant's blockbuster Trade to set San Antonio.
- [53:54]
Waz
We're getting to mission impossible levels of punctuation in these headlines.
- [53:58]
Isaiah Blakely
Should have been a wine reference and not like true.
- [54:01]
Waz
That's true.
- [54:02]
Rob Mahoney
Well, in Texas though, I wanted to.
- [54:04]
Isaiah Blakely
Throw in that he's a wine guy and you know these NBA players love wine.
- [54:08]
Rob Mahoney
True, that's true. I just wanted him to go like they actually met at a clandestine like Tex Mex place that Katie used to.
- [54:14]
Isaiah Blakely
Go to back in his awesome hardshell tacos.
- [54:17]
Rob Mahoney
And he's like, Katie ordered the chiliquile but he told them to hold the salsa. And it reminded him of his youth when he also held off on doing it the easy way because he was going to do it the hard way. And that's how he became an all NBA player.
- [54:34]
Waz
Well, let me just say this as someone who was once a 19 year old as a freshman at the University of Texas, maybe not the same taste in Tex Mex's pop. You know, I don't think those circles quite overlap.
- [54:44]
Rob Mahoney
Okay. But I think the question is, do we, do we think San Antonio is the move here? Because it seems like a lot of things are heading in that direction.
- [54:53]
Waz
I'm still waiting for the sell on this. Like if you are the Spurs, Kevin Durant's a wonderful player, incredibly talented. I don't think there's a doubt that he would make them better. I just don't know if I'm San Antonio, if I'm making any moves that are on a two year Runway right now. Like I am looking forward perpetually onward and upward. Like I don't know why I would be on a Kevin Durant style path when my best player is Victor Webanyama. And now we have a high pick in the draft. And like there's so many ways you could move forward here other than banking on a 36 or is he 37.
- [55:27]
Rob Mahoney
Year old veteran going to be.
- [55:29]
Isaiah Blakely
Yeah, see like spurs doing the Giannis thing makes sense because like you said Rob, it's like that you could talk yourself being in a four year thing. Right. The KD thing is so short term and to be that short term and now like when Binyamin like you're going to turn into a KD offense, you know, and like de' Aaron Fox and Wembanyama need to be developing their chemistry as teammates. And look, I think they would be obviously a much better team for them.
- [56:03]
Waz
They'd be good.
- [56:03]
Isaiah Blakely
Yeah. I just don't know like that developmentally this is the best thing for the team.
- [56:09]
Rob Mahoney
I think the sales pitch would be thus And I can go either way on it. We're going to draft Dylan Harper number two, and we're going to say we're looking at this more as the long view. Giannis might not come on the market. We're going to talk about that next. Even if he does like, you know, that's, that's a four to five year window as opposed to a 10 to 12, which is like Wemby might be that good for that long. We're thinking Duncan years with this guy. So we draft Harper, but we still want to like, push the button a little bit. We want to push forward. We want to compete now because we think Fox, Wemby plus everything that we have, we could do something this year. Durant might be the middle tier move where if he accepts a role where he's more superstar emeritus, he actually lets the young guys trudge you through the regular season. I show up 50 games and then in the playoffs, I'm going to pop and I'm going to take us to like as far as we can get. And then he has more of a three to four year last couple years, as opposed to doing everything like he did with Phoenix, where he was not only had to be the best player offensively, but the best player defensively. So it's twofold. If I could tldr us, it's the spurs having their cake and eating it too. And for Durant, it's like I'm just going to let the young guys carry me through the back end of my career kind of the way Chris Paul did with the Suns. Like he was the guy that's the pack to drink. Well, I think that's also part of it. If they can get him for something a little bit more moderate. And if you have Dylan Harper, if you have Fox, presumably you can deal a guard. Is that Fasal? Is that Stefan Castle? Are you more willing to give up that plus some picks and that and.
- [57:43]
Isaiah Blakely
You keep the guts of a competitive cell is like untouchable in this deal. That seems insane to me.
- [57:50]
Waz
I think it's. I think it's more than Phoenix's incentives. Yeah, Phoenix's incentives are not really anchored towards draft picks, particularly, like they want to be competitive and so you would need a third team if it's going to be a third competitive? I think so that's a bad idea.
- [58:08]
Rob Mahoney
Right, because they don't have their own draft picks. Would they rather be mediocre around Booker, which is where it seems like they're signaling their heads are at, or would they want to Just steadily build with somebody else's future. I'll be honest, like spurs picks of the future don't do much for me. Maybe thinking it's the Hawks picks that the spurs still on. But again, Hawks look like they can be the fourth seat next year if things go right just because the way the east is looking. And so maybe they just don't have the package wise.
- [58:34]
Isaiah Blakely
I don't know what the money is that you put together. And I mean, yeah, I can't. I. Why can't the Suns be like, all right, Devin Booker, you're Mr. Sun, right? All right, well you're going to bring up the fourth pick in the draft and Castle or Vassell, you know, and this is. We're rocking and rolling now. Like I could be talked into that if I'm Phoenix, I got two franchise cornerstones allegedly. And so just keep it pushing from there.
- [59:02]
Waz
Yeah, I think from San Antonio's perspective, I'm bumping on two things, Justin. Cause I see the vision of what you're talking about as far as like the sort of mid pass that could make sense, especially if you can sell KD on the plan you described of like kind of saving himself during the regular season. Let the young legs take over. I just don't think in the west the young legs taking over is a guarantee of, of anything right now. Like the west is pretty competitive all the way through. They had some serious injury and health concerns this year. Granted that held them down a little bit. But it's not like the spurs were just like sailing through this thing even with Victor as good as he was, even after bringing Fox in and then, you know, having his own injury issues along the way. So it's like, can you just like bank on this team to be a middle playoff seed? I don't think you can. And I would also feel a lot better about it if the player you were acquiring, whatever star you want to bring in, were a downhill player. Like I want someone who goes to the basket to play opposite Victor and Kevin Durant doesn't do that anymore. And that's kind of an issue if you want to start pairing those guys together. It's like all of a sudden you have a lot of guys who like taking mid to long range jumpers and that might not be what you want to like stage your entire offense around at this stage.
- [60:09]
Rob Mahoney
So the other options here. So if you San Antonio isn't number one for you. Do you guys like any of the other teams mentioned? Houston, Miami, Minnesota, New York. There's been some kind of reporting to suggest they're not really in it. But was. Do any of those appeal to you more than San Antonio?
- [60:25]
Isaiah Blakely
Minnesota? For sure. If I'm replacing Julius Randle with kd, pretty good. Sign me up. That's. That's, that's an exciting prospect for sure. I just don't know what's in that for Phoenix. What, like what, what are we doing? Like, you're going to have to pay the hell out of Julius Randle. And I don't think the next three years of Julius Randle are going to have more output than kd, do you guys?
- [60:50]
Waz
They have a shiny Rob Dillingham sitting right there.
- [60:53]
Isaiah Blakely
Oh, Rob Dillingham package.
- [60:58]
Waz
Didn't you see Tarant Shannon's playoff minutes? Come on.
- [61:02]
Isaiah Blakely
Yeah. Minnesota is the one that I'm most intrigued by, but I just don't see how they make like why Phoenix is thirsty to do that.
- [61:09]
Rob Mahoney
I guess there would be enough mix of young players like, could you get Dillingham? Could you get Shannon? Is there a way to work in like a Nas Reed or an Aquila Alexander Walker?
- [61:20]
Isaiah Blakely
Jaden McDaniels.
- [61:22]
Rob Mahoney
Right. I think that's where I would draw. You'd want Jaden in order to make that happen. See, I don't think you do that if you're Minnesota.
- [61:30]
Waz
I. I'm not sure you do do it if you're Minnesota. I'm not sure if Phoenix is on the line if Jade McDaniels isn't involved. Just like again, just like as you're putting the pieces together, it's like, what is the tipping point from the Phoenix suns perspective? Jade McDaniels is surely a tipping point. Anyone else who's going to be involved, who could realistically be involved in a trade like that? I just don't really see the argument.
- [61:49]
Isaiah Blakely
Jaden and Julius Randle, that's a lot. Your team is not going to be better. He's just not going to be a better team.
- [61:59]
Rob Mahoney
To me, I don't think you can get rid of Edwards, McDaniels or probably even Rudy because you need to keep the guts of what makes your team good now and just add Katie to that if you can get it done like that. But usually when we're saying like you don't want to get rid of these guys, those are the guys that guys.
- [62:14]
Isaiah Blakely
Teams want.
- [62:15]
Waz
The. The only reason I might think a little that the reality might go a little differently from how we feel about it is it sure seemed like Minnesota was very interested in the Kevin Durant market at the trade deadline, even at a time where it was, like, logistically almost impossible for them to get him. They wanted to demonstrate to Kevin Durant, look how eager we are to trade for you.
- [62:35]
Isaiah Blakely
We love you.
- [62:37]
Waz
You know, K.B. we love you. That's how you do it. You don't go trying to sign everybody's coach in order to make these overtures. You. You make little. Little trade rumors behind the scenes.
- [62:47]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, well, one thing that's kind of complicating the market, probably for Katie and everybody else, is it seems like Giannis is going to stay put in Milwaukee, or at least that's where we are on June 11th as we're recording this. We'll see in a couple days, a couple weeks, because I don't know what he's returning to. We can get into that. But Giannis, not only the reports are out there that he's not on the market, the Bucks unwilling to deal them, obviously, that makes sense for them. Why would they deal him if they didn't have to? He's also just tweeting up a storm now to the point where he tweeted up today. Does anybody else miss? And I have an answer for that. Fuck no. And so my headline here is Philosophy according to Giannis Colon. And this is a quote. I'm gonna finish what I started. What do you think? Would you read? Would you click?
- [63:35]
Waz
I mean, I would. Look, I would. I would click all of these, for the record, definitely. I would click the scallenge. Like, that's. I'm no time flat seeing that on my feed. I would click it. You know what? I. I go back and forth on whether I could actually see Giannis as a lifetime buck. Clearly, he's demonstrated an incredible loyalty to that franchise. He's also kind of done what he's had to do as a star to force their hand in this situation or that, as any star should do in that situation. I think ultimately he will play for another team at some point. Whether that's. Now, clearly he's pumping the brakes on that, but I think he is. I think he is destined for that at some point in his career, but clearly that may be another year down the line or the three years down the line. I honestly have no idea with that guy.
- [64:21]
Isaiah Blakely
Yeah, I think he'll eventually go ring chase somewhere, but I. Again, I think the KD timeline, career timeline, is an instructive one. Just like, all right, force. Go force a trade. Force a move. And what's so great about what happened in Brooklyn and Phoenix, you know, like, what's so awesome about that. And so, yeah, I think if something that's super duper attractive presents itself, like, I would imagine if there was like a Golden State opportunity that like actually made some kind of sense, I could see him being like, yeah, me and Stephen, absolutely. Um, but, you know, what's out there right now maybe just doesn't feel that attractive in terms of place and players that he would be with.
- [65:13]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I, I think he should do whatever he wants. My question is, after he's decided to show up for training camp and he looks around at the team assembled, if he's going to have a little bit of opt. There's in remorse here because if you thought last year's buck look bad, it's potentially going to be worse than that. So free agents, I have them down as potentially losing 191 starts if they don't return. A lot of the guys that they have on the market available, which is Brook Lopez, Taurean Prince, Gary Trent Jr. Ryan Rollins. All of a sudden, Ryan Rollins being undrafted like a unrestricted free agent looks like a potentially big loss if they lose him. And then Jericho Sims and then in player options, they have Bobby Portis, Pat Connaughton. You assume he's going to pick that one up at 9.4 million. Kevin Porter Jr. But it's likely, I would say, not just possible, that they lose a lot of those guys and have to find a way to replace the team that we were already saying was barely good enough to be even on the floor with a guy of this caliber. Dame, of course, we didn't even mention is when is he coming back and if he comes back, mid-30s, small guard with a devastating injury, he's not coming back next season. Is he just gonna go to Cancun midway through and get to the LeBron and chill like, program here? Because if not, like, it's gonna get pretty frustrating for him next season.
- [66:38]
Waz
See, I think he is going to show up to camp and do his part with whatever the Bucks look like, and he's going to get through about six weeks of the season and be like, what, what is this? What did I sign up for? Like, once, once, especially super high level professional athletes are confronted with the fact that their best is maybe not enough to elevate any kind of circumstance around them. And like, let's be honest about what this is. Even if they do bring some of those guys back. Justin, brook Lopez is 37 years old and was just kind of like played out of half, half halves of playoff games. Like, like he, he is not the answer. The team as constructed is not the answer. So then you have to create a new one. Whole cloth. With Giannis's salary on the books, obviously. With Dame salary on the books, obviously. Or move on from him in a way that's not going to actually benefit the team. Because trading Damian Lillard at this stage is not an additive trade for another team. So what are you getting back in return for it? I don't know what the easy solutions are in order to even get the Bucks back to what do they win 48 games this season? Like, I don't know how you get them back to that point.
- [67:40]
Rob Mahoney
I found my.
- [67:41]
Isaiah Blakely
It's not looking good.
- [67:44]
Rob Mahoney
I found myself today being like, would they rather have Chris Middleton's expiring contract rather than Kyle Kuzma's last two years on the deal, even though Kuzman's salary is lower? The fact that they have to convince someone to take an extra year as opposed to an expiring at a higher amount where they could just match the contract, give them their 2031 first round pick. Because, oh, by the way, that's literally the only pick that they could trade. Unless they want to trade swaps and swaps. I don't know if those swaps or swaps. They swap it as much as they want to swap. So I just. What are the moves here, you know, like, in addition to the contract?
- [68:23]
Isaiah Blakely
Yeah, it's just mediocrity. Giannis is going to have to suffer through mediocrity and be like, I'm Mr. Buck. I'm hearing good times and in bad. I think that's what he's going for. Like, I'm. I'm here through thick and thin. I think we're going to turn this around and next year is just going to have to be the sacrificial lamb of a season.
- [68:41]
Waz
And for what it's worth, totally fine. Like, if that's what he wants to do, this is his call. This is his career. How you want to, like, treat your superstardom is up to you. And if it's worth more to him, to reward what Milwaukee has put into him, what the Bucks have put into him over the course of his career, like, power to him for doing that.
- [68:58]
Isaiah Blakely
Have you guys gamed out something that would make sense for Milwaukee while also, like, you know, bringing back, putting Giannis in a position to win? I think. Cleveland, would you trade Evan Mobley for Giannis?
- [69:17]
Waz
I think I would.
- [69:19]
Rob Mahoney
I wouldn't trade it. I wouldn't do that as the Bucks because if I Just have Mobley and nothing else and not my own future. What am I surrounding with Mobley? So it's almost like a slightly worse version of what I have now, except like you just don't have anything to feed the main star that you have.
- [69:39]
Isaiah Blakely
Sure. But like in, let's say two years, when your books make way more sense, you'll be in a position to do so. Whereas with Giannis in two years, like he gonna be old, like, you know what I mean? Evan Mobley will still be squarely on the upswing of his career in two years.
- [70:00]
Waz
Was if 32. If. Dude, if 32 year old Giannis is old, what are we?
- [70:05]
Isaiah Blakely
Oh, we're cooked.
- [70:07]
Waz
Okay.
- [70:08]
Isaiah Blakely
Washed and laundered. Stick a fork in us.
- [70:12]
Rob Mahoney
I think with Mobley you will get to like two years from now where you have open cap space to do something with it. Realize you're in Milwaukee, you can't bring anybody there because it's not like Mobley's out there partying in like in Calabasas right now, just like recruiting guys for four years down the road. And so you will have to trade him in three years from that because he will be looking to hit free agency down the road. So like to me, that only.
- [70:36]
Isaiah Blakely
So what should the Bucks want in return for Giannis in a trade? If not a really all star player who's cost controlled, like, what should they want?
- [70:46]
Rob Mahoney
I would look at more of the Houston, San Antonio teams that could offer me a lot of different things with the idea that I expect one of them to pop in a certain way. And so like if I had Reed Shepherd, I have a couple other, like this upcoming number nine pick, I have like one or two other guys, Tari Easton, whomever it might be Jabari Smith, then like, oh, maybe I see something in them and I could turn them into something. And at the very least I have multiple bites of the apple. So you're basically saying I didn't have the past four drafts, but I have this team's past four drafts and so I could hopefully bring a team out of that because again, like, what are the things that are going to be additive to the team outside of this trade? It's like, like they're not getting picks back in because they don't have players to trade. They don't have their own picks, so they can't draft their way to other players. So it's just like you're stuck in this situation for two years until you can get rid of Dame. So I think Houston makes sense.
- [71:38]
Waz
I think I Think Houston does make sense as a Giannis destination and as a Kevin Durant destination for that matter, like if we wanted to get down to it. But also apparently there's no destination to be had for Yada, so he's going to be hanging out in Milwaukee until he decides otherwise.
- [71:52]
Rob Mahoney
I'll say this, Giannis, Jabari Smith, Amen Thompson is fucking sick. And so I know Giannis wants to say and toil and just be the guy in Milwaukee, but like all of us are rooting for you to go to Houston because I want to watch that. So we'll see. All right, wrap it there. I think we'll be back Friday.
- [72:13]
Isaiah Blakely
Houston was in the playoffs this year. That seems like years ago that I was watching that team play basketball. Doesn't that seem like such a long time ago?
- [72:23]
Waz
I just like this segment was remembers the Houston Rockets. Just remembers that they exist, that they're out there.
- [72:31]
Rob Mahoney
Should we do our own one shining moment at the end of the finals where we just list off things that happened over the past two months of our lives that we just completely forgot? Yeah, we should. Upper and Shen Goon had a pretty good game once. He also had several pretty bad games too. All right, we'll be back, I believe Friday. No waz. We'll miss you, buddy.
- [72:51]
Isaiah Blakely
Yes, I'm going to be in Guatemala. One of my best friends is getting married on Saturday. So yeah, I'm going to be in Guatemalan Antigua. Wedding. Yep.
- [73:03]
Waz
Do you want to shout out your friend now or later? Sydney.
- [73:06]
Isaiah Blakely
Sydney Snow. One of the greats ever. So yeah, shout.
- [73:09]
Rob Mahoney
Sir, we need to stop asking you where you're going because I want to us to guess because there's no way any of us. Because when we say like, oh, going Tulum, you're like, no, I'm actually, I'm going to Washington D.C. you know, I'm going to Delaware.
- [73:24]
Isaiah Blakely
Believe me, believe me, when I got this wedding invitation from two black Americans from Florida and D.C. respectively, I'm like, yeah, probably gonna be in Florida, in the Keys or some shit. Probably, you know, like these people are pretty successful. It's probably gonna be some sexy locale or whatever. When I seen that shit say Antigua, Guatemala, I was like, what the helly?
- [73:54]
Rob Mahoney
Haven't seen that one.
- [73:55]
Isaiah Blakely
The things we do.
- [73:57]
Rob Mahoney
Well, we'll miss you but we'll have a fill in for you on Friday for game four, another exciting edition of Group Chat and another NBA finals game. So we will talk to you then. Thank you, Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Talk to you next time.