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The Ringer NBA Show
The Pistons Are Badass, LeBron Returns, and Early Eye-Opening Teams | Group Chat
01:17:03
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Chat. I am Justin Varier and joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle. Man. Rob, thanks for showing up.
- [00:19]
B
You know, I try this. This is what I'm best at is showing up for our podcast to complete them with the two of you. I've never missed the show.
- [00:28]
A
Did you enjoy your time away from us? Did you at least go on a nice little beach vacay?
- [00:33]
B
It was not a beach vacay, actually. I. I left to do a tennis tournament that I play in annually. Somewhat successful results, but I'm. I'm sad to say I did not come back with the championship belt.
- [00:44]
C
What's. I. I feel like you would be a big time force at the net. Is that incorrect?
- [00:48]
B
I mean, that is the game, especially for as old and washed as we are. Like doubles is the way of life at this point. So, you know, know the net is my friend.
- [00:56]
A
Wait, so you said annually. Did you travel in order to participate in this tournament?
- [01:01]
B
I may have did. Is that a problem for you?
- [01:04]
A
Oh, there's a lot going on here.
- [01:08]
B
It was just back to the bay. This was a local tournament I was playing in when I lived there. Now it is an out of town tournament that I'm going to make a little weekend of.
- [01:16]
A
Oh, that's. That's lovely. Did you sign any autographs there? Like, people were just bringing you their pluribus, like cells from, from the show, like the screenshots.
- [01:25]
B
Now you're just being rude. You know, I'm just, I'm just a guy trying to play some tennis with his friends and it has to become a whole thing for you.
- [01:32]
C
Yes, it does. Did you want to defend Paramore at all before we get going? I tried to talk a little shit about that. I half expected you to come on here with a denim, an open denim shirt with a Paramore.
- [01:43]
B
You know, it has not made its way into my closet as of yet, but I'm certainly not above it. So, you know, maybe we'll get the Paramore merch. I don't think they need defending. Haley Williams. Unimpeachable. So I don't know what I would need to defend.
- [01:54]
A
Are you guys pro Paramore?
- [01:56]
B
Yeah. Is. What is the anti stance?
- [01:59]
A
I wouldn't say I'm necessarily anti, but like when I was in my emo phase, I wouldn't necessarily say I was in. It felt like it came a little bit after me, but I feel like there's an age group where Paramore is like number one on their like concert list or whatever.
- [02:14]
B
Yeah, we're a little aged out of that group for sure. But.
- [02:17]
A
But you still. You still rep.
- [02:19]
B
I mean, the. The bona fides are real. Am I going to go on like the Paramore Cruise where they perform? No, but wow. You know, an active note, a gen. A generational band as far as like whatever 4th wave emo or whatever we're in now. I love Paramore. No, no, nothing bad to say about the band.
- [02:37]
C
It's just the least surprising thing ever. I just feel like there's a digression between you and I and our taste. Where there's like that. That there's that. That it's not brooding. Right. It's like. It's clever, it's in its feelings. But it's. I don't know because I texted you something about Alt Jay and you were like, I love that. I was like, I fucking cringed at that. So I think. I don't know, there's an interesting line here. I just don't think you're maybe quite as sad. As much of a sad, brooding boy in your music as maybe I am. Rob's just a more of a chipper guy. I guess that's why he's going to play tennis tournaments with his friends. Just trying to improve his quality of life.
- [03:08]
B
Maybe so. I think I just have a bigger tent. Kyle, you're closing yourself off to the world. I want to broaden your horizons.
- [03:14]
A
That's.
- [03:14]
B
That's all.
- [03:15]
A
Yeah, Kyle, you're just more real. You're. You're with the streets. So real.
- [03:18]
B
Man, I don't like how this turned. I. I don't like this development at all.
- [03:24]
A
You're listening to the Ringer NBA show presented by FanDuel. FanDuel now displays your bet directly on your phone's lock screen. And with the latest updates to the live events and player pages, it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri get excited because FanDuel's coming your way. To see December 1st. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-78-9-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Brooks Running. Brooks reminds us that we're all powered by something from the me time energy of a run after a workday, the electric energy felt on a ra or the infectious energy of a group run with your friends. Brooks makes gear designed to unleash your energy, whether it's the feel good distraction Freak Ghost, the supercharged Hyperion Max, or the fan favorite Adrenaline. Because at the end of the day, one step has the power to change everything. Let's run there. Head to BrooksRunning.com to learn more.
- [04:34]
D
This episode is brought to you by Indeed. I couldn't imagine doing this show by myself. This podcast is as great as it is because of the awesome team behind it. Find your own incredible team by using Indeed sponsor sponsored jobs. 3.3 million employers worldwide use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. And a lot of them get results. Sponsored Jobs helps your job post stand out from the crowd and reach the right candidates faster. Try it out. Build your team with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Listeners of this show can get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com ringermba Terms and Conditions apply.
- [05:06]
A
All right, well, we should get to the matter at hand. Talking about some teams and wondering whether or not they and their surprising starts are indeed real. Look at that. We're going to talk about the Suns.
- [05:17]
B
Believe it or not.
- [05:18]
A
We're going to talk about the Raptors, we're talking about the Hawks. Talk about the white hot Detroit Pistons. But first we got to talk about the Los Angeles Lakers, because LeBron James checked in for the first time for his 23rd NBA season, the only time that's ever happened in the NBA, which was wild. We can get to the actual performance at hand here, But Rob, it was just so nice when the lineup came up and you see all the names there and the Bronze there. Like, I'll be honest, the heart started twinging. What do they say? Tingling.
- [05:51]
B
Well, I mean, for you, any movement at all is successful. Like Jason, we've talked many times. It's just hard to make you feel alive at all. So the fact that this resonated with you, I think is meaningful for all of us.
- [06:03]
A
Only when I'm potting with you guys, you know, that's when I come alive.
- [06:06]
B
I really appreciate it, but you're right, like, LeBron has been one of the great constants of our entire lives, if we're being honest. So the idea of him being back on an NBA court is a comforting thing. Great to see him back out there.
- [06:18]
A
It's.
- [06:19]
C
There's a crazy passage of time thing. You have these moments where I saw LeBron play and I think it was his third NBA game. It was my senior year of high school. And. And yeah, against the Indiana Pacers and. And Dassau Najap hit a hit a. Or Sagana job hit a hit a game winner at the buzzer. So, yeah, that's how long we're talking. No, it's nice to see him out there. He's, you know, he's taking. If we're going to compare regiments, you know, I think he's taking care of himself a little bit better than me. So I kind of look to him as a standard of what's possible. But yeah, no, I mean, let's talk about the basketball, though.
- [06:54]
B
No, I want to talk about you and LeBron and your relationship side by side.
- [06:59]
C
You know how quickly I tried to kick that can. Let's just move on. Let's just throw up the.
- [07:03]
B
Let's throw up the bio blast right here on the video. I think it'd be great for all of us.
- [07:07]
A
Yeah. Kyle, is there anything you've been doing for 23 years straight that at the very least you could share on a public recording right now?
- [07:15]
C
Oh, God, no. 23, man. I mean, other than poorly playing guitar. I'm trying to think.
- [07:21]
B
I was about to say, I feel like jamming on various instruments for making mistakes.
- [07:26]
C
Been doing that. Never really stopped doing that at any point.
- [07:28]
A
Why don't we fall? Why?
- [07:30]
B
Self loathing. You know, there's a lot of things in contention.
- [07:33]
C
You guys get anything?
- [07:36]
A
Nothing I could care to share on here, that's for sure.
- [07:38]
B
Certainly not. No. But, Justin, you're right that, like LeBron has become one of these players who, especially for people of our generation like you, really do mark the passage of time by, you know, his breakout in the playoffs against the Pistons, or his stumble against the Mavs in the playoffs, or like his ultimately winning the titles in Miami and in Cleveland and then in la. He is one of the signature athletes of all time. He is one of the signature athletes of NBA history. That tells the story of basketball.
- [08:04]
A
He.
- [08:04]
B
And having him out there at this stage where he's just going to be a different kind of player than the guy we're used to because he's in season 23, because he's on a team with Luka Doncic. I know it intellectually. And yet it is also striking to see LeBron operating out of the corners more than he ever has before because this is his first game back from an injury and he is the age that he is.
- [08:26]
A
I mean, obviously the defense wasn't great and we could talk about that and the long term implications about the Lakers defense. But Kyle, just watching him kind of default into. I can make things happen purely with my mind, it was very much like an older pitcher where they might not have their stuff, as they say in baseball terminology, but they could just get outs based on craft and knowing the batter's habits and all these other things. I mean, he had 12 assists and it didn't seem particularly hard. Nor did he seem particularly like, athletic or was moving all that well. He could just make things happen on a court and like, for a long stretch, especially in that second half, especially in the fourth quarter, he was just doing that.
- [09:05]
C
Well, there's, I think with every, with any discipline, any kind of craft that you're into, I feel like if you watch somebody who is. I've probably made this comparison before, but there's just an economy of motion whenever you watch. We'll take it back to the guitar thing. If you watch like a really, really great guitar player play like a jazz player, like, man, he doesn't seem like he's moving his hand hardly at all. And it's just, he knows every angle. We were talking about Robbie, you were talking about the, the history of his game and everything. He's probably one of the few guys that could legitimately. You could chronicle his career as an eras tour about the different levels and he's reinvented and found his total ways to stay relevant and stay. And now that the, you know, now that the bursts and the athleticism, it's more finite. He's not flying around. Although I will say he like dove for a transition pass to intercept it in the third quarter when they were up 10 on Utah. Like this guy with a sciatica thing going on. No, I just think he, he's reached that level of cerebral. Not that I will say. Okay, let me say this really quickly. If you want to have your passing pop, it helps to have Nick Nurkic guarding the pick and roll. I'll just say that as a starting point, certainly.
- [10:17]
A
Yes. Kyle texted us at 8am this morning just to let us know that Yusuf Nurkic is not good at defense anymore, which was.
- [10:25]
C
Which is important anymore.
- [10:28]
B
I appreciate it.
- [10:29]
A
All right, well, I mean, I, if we're talking centers here, I also thought there was already some symbiosis forming with our guy deandre Ayton. And I don't know if we necessarily need to take a victory lap on Ayton being like a serviceful, like actually starter caliber big man. But you could already see not only Luka start to utilize him, but LeBron. I mean, Ayton had 10 field goals in that game, Rob, and four of them came off of LeBron passes. It's just having a big target is going to optimize those guys in ways that's going to be beneficial.
- [11:03]
B
I mean, not shocking at all that one of the most, if not the most brilliant basketball player of all time would find a way and see the angles and if anything, like him being out there in whatever capacity, whether he's on ball, whether he's off ball, the luxury of that kind of sophistication and playmaking, of having LeBron James as the connector of your team is kind of ridiculous. And I think it also absolves Luka of some of, you know, his worst tendencies as a playmaker. If anything, Luka, for as brilliant as he is, can hold the ball waiting for like the perfect play, the perfect pass, the home run opportunity. What if the easy play is just to swing it to LeBron, who then hits Aiden in the middle and then it's a dunk. It's like it gives Luka easier options. It gives Austin Reaves a lot of pressure, relief, and it just opens up so much for guys like Aiden, who, if you're even remotely in the right spot and you're on the floor with LeBron James, you're going to get the ball. And so all of a sudden, the Laker offense looks that much more rich with opportunity. And just like the way they can diversify how they get into their stuff.
- [12:01]
C
Yeah, you're just expanding your decision tree. If, if LeBron is out there. I mean, the first, I think it was one of the first plays of the game. They had a baseline out of bounds, and there was some kind of uphill kind of rub screen or brush screen where Austin Reaves had a path to the basket. And LeBron saw it like a second and a half before it was coming in through and led Re. It fooled Reeves, Reeves didn't, didn't even think it was going to be there. And LeBron was like, yeah, that was there. I would oppose this to you guys. Like, I'm trying to think all time. If you took like a play, I know the how. There's the Halbert Stam. If you had five Michael Jordans, you'd, you know, the five Michael Jordans would be any combination of five of the same player. Is there any combination of, like, in the history of basketball, LeBron could play pick and roll with himself. Is there any other, like, if you had two LeBrons, I don't think there's any other player that you could say if he was playing pick because he has all of those connective skills, and he also has all of those primary skills. So we're just kind of seeing this secondary kind of thing that we don't usually get to see just as a result of him being older, not being the primaries.
- [13:05]
A
Is Magic the first one that came to everybody's mind?
- [13:08]
B
I think. But even magic isn't the finisher that LeBron has been necessarily like, has a lot of finesse, clearly a lot of angles to work with. But in his time, LeBron has been largely the best passer and for a lot of it, the greatest finisher in basketball. And so that idea, to say nothing about, as Kyle was alluded to, all like the short role instincts that LeBron can have and the way he can spray out to other guys, I think that it probably is the definitive option is LeBron to LeBron. If you can get LeBron to LeBron on your team, I think you should do it.
- [13:39]
A
The synergy opportunities always existed. My concern was how much LeBron ever wanted to feed into that role, because even though he is in year 23, did he ever want to take a backseat not only to Luka, but Austin Reaves? And perhaps the sciatica is just like lubricating that sort of transition for him. It makes it easier if he can't do the other stuff, that he could be this ultimate connector. Obviously the off season raised a lot of those concerns, and right now they're fine. To the point where LeBron is helping Reeves up and not just like kind of dapping him up and doing like some fun, like, like finger gun sort of thing. He hugged him and he hugged him like he, like he lost Reeves for a year or two, like he's a dog or something like that. It's just like, I'm so happy to be with you. And so that role has always been the, the, I think the linchpin to making this all work. But obviously on the defensive side, like, it was pretty rough to start with. Deontay George looked like Ky. Like prime Kyrie Irving out there. And so that's the trade off. The offense is going to be spectacular. The defense, we'll see.
- [14:40]
C
I like the idea of sciatica lubricating anything. I think that's the first time I've ever heard those two words put together. Sciatica really got things going.
- [14:50]
B
I actually did think when we were playing full on, I say we as a larger media apparatus, we're playing body language doctor with LeBron and like, how. How locked in is he on the bench? Is he being supportive of these guys? Spoken Like a lot of people have never had back injuries before. If you've ever had a back injury, you were just, you're just in a shitty mood all the time. Like, it is just a constant tax on your life. And I will say nothing in my life has ever made me want to do less than having sciatica. So maybe Justin's right about the lubricating. Maybe this is exactly the sort of reality check that a guy in his 40s might need to be a different version of himself.
- [15:25]
A
The difference is Rob. Rob would still pod with. With a back injury. He would, he would line up five TV pods in a day. Even though he's, he's on painkillers.
- [15:34]
C
Rob's actually on one of those inverted things. He's actually upside down right now hanging on one of those backpacks. Elgato is upside down. Can I say, can I say something else about Ayton that I've kind of noticed? Please, can, can I have permission to talk about deandre Ayton? I think, I kind of think that this is feeding into. He is not going to be posting up. They're not going to be playing through him. I know that he's envisioned. There's a real interesting like, Theon Gray joy reek thing going on with deandre Ayton where he's like, I am Theon Greyjoy. I am the Prince. I was the number one pick. Dominating and everything. And they're kind of like, no, you're better when you just are in a rigid structure with players are going to like, when did he play the best basketball of his life? When he went to pick and roll school with Chris Paul. Like, it's.
- [16:16]
A
He.
- [16:16]
C
Whenever he has this kind of structure and you're like, fall in line, you catch the ball here, you do this. This is your job. He does fine. And I think whenever, whenever they're doing these actions, I've noticed like they were running these like, staggered with like Gabe Vincent and Austin Reeves and Ayton is just kind of standing above the foul line at like 18ft and whenever he's sort of the pressure release valve where he can shoot those little. I mean, he's maddening when he's playing back to the basket and he shoots those little push shots. But if he's catching the ball with a couple steps and he shoots a little overhanded push shot, you're like, okay, that was a decent. I don't know what the, the points per possession are for that, but it's not bad considering what our other options are.
- [16:52]
B
So Just to run out the metaphor a little bit. Like playing for the Blazers. Was yonder Ayton's basketball castration? Is that what happened?
- [17:01]
A
Oh, no, a lot more than castrate.
- [17:03]
C
Well, they cut his penis off. It wasn't just castration, Rob.
- [17:06]
B
I guess that's true. And we're talking about Reek and Theon Greyjoy specifically. Just to make it all very clear, I wrote.
- [17:12]
C
I. I wrote down in my notes, he talks that. That talk, but he's really something else. And then I highlighted this metaphor. Doesn't work. And I said it anyway, so it.
- [17:23]
A
Kind of promotes abuse. Yeah, I appreciate his change in hairstyle because it's a nice reminder, as much as you want to believe in him, that that still exists there. Like, it's orange right now, and it almost feels like he meant to make it blond, but the bleach went wrong and now he's just stuck with that and it's just like a reminder. It's just like, that's that guy, and it's going to show up from time to time. But don't lean too far in the other direction because he had these stretches with Portland, which is what I was saying over the offseason, like, when he's locked in and he wants to do all the dirty stuff, like, he can do it because he's a massive athlete who is unlike few like other players that we've seen before. It's just. It's a give and take. And so while it's good, appreciate it.
- [18:06]
B
Absolutely. And like, again, right now, he is a component of what they're doing and a component, we should say, of this team being, in LeBron's absence, quite resourceful, like, just really made it work with every permutation of guys in and out of the lineup. Like, this is a team that went 10 and four without LeBron, that went three and one without LeBron or Luka, that won its own only game without both of those guys and Austin Reeves. I think you just have to tip your hat to that, regardless of whether you think the bottom is going to fall on the defense. 11 and 4, given what the Lakers have dealt with so far, is unquestionably a success, but long term.
- [18:40]
A
Kyle, what do you think? Do you think this signals a certain level that they won't slip back from? Do you think the defense will be more of an issue in the regular season, or is that more of a playoff concern?
- [18:51]
C
I mean, the defense is, I think, where you could kind of hang your hat because, I mean, they're playing the Jazz Last night, obviously, Nurkic not going to put a lot of their guards look good. The Jazz weren't going to stress them in the way that I think some of these other teams will. I think the offense will stay good just because I think when you. When you have entry points like they have, they're. They're elite. I mean, and if you're going to keep LeBron in that spot, he can also pick his spots and attack single coverage. Yeah, they can put points on the board. They went on a 43 to nine run to end the third and to start the fourth. They can put some. And there was a really interesting lineup shift, too, because they did really well with Luca Reeves, LeBron, Rui and Ayton. But they also had some interesting, like, Laravia lineups in there. They. They had some things that they can kind of experiment. Do we. Do we believe that the A dothiero experiment, is that going to. How's that going to affect the defense? What do you think? What do you think, Rob?
- [19:43]
D
No.
- [19:44]
B
God, I have no comment at this time. Come on, what are we talking about?
- [19:49]
A
Do you guys have some, like, a do theory. Oh, beef going on or what's that?
- [19:54]
C
No, I just thought it was a hipster lob.
- [19:57]
A
That's all.
- [19:58]
B
That was the lob I let sail out of bounds. So that everyone credits you with the turnover. That's what's happening here.
- [20:06]
A
Yeah, I just feel like they have stabilized the ship to a point where I find it hard to believe that they're going to slip back in the west, especially as the west is increasingly becoming even more top heavy than the east is, where it's like the top four feel pretty solid right now. Thunder, Nuggets, Rockets, and then the Lakers spurs, dealing with a ton of injuries. Wolves are kind of like helter skelter at this point, and everybody else is just kind of big ol mess at this point.
- [20:30]
B
Yeah, there. There's a lot to figure out. And so, yeah, there's a lot of cushion there for the Lakers between them. And some of those also ran wannabe contending type teams. And ultimately, if we want to drill down, like, the thing that the Lakers have that those teams don't is Luka Doncic. And so long as he is there playing at this level. And I. I would say, you know, Luke has been wonderful before. Been one of the best players in the league for a long time. I think he's freaking teams out in a way that surpasses even where he's been. Like the preemptive double teams, the sheer Panic that he is inviting in the pick and roll. I mean he's leading the league in scoring and putting up almost 35 a game. Something that like in the last 50 years, like a couple of guys have done basically. So so long as he is that the Lakers are going to be head and shoulders above some of these other teams in the Western Conference. They're just not going to have that kind of creativity to compete regardless of what happens with the defense getting to.
- [21:22]
A
The line nearly 13 times a game right now. So at ridiculous. Yeah, Reeves own ability to do so and LeBron's own ability to do so, they're going to manufacture points in a way that's just going to slow the game down, allow them to control a lot of regular season games on offense. But I think you're right. I think like this part of the season we have enough sample to suggest like the teams that have really asserted themselves. There's a lot of noise still. We're trying to figure things out in the east. It's way more crowded and, and complex. But I think if a team is this successful and looks this impressive, I think that's something to note and something that rarely just like Wilts over the course of an 82 game slog, which is a good segue to talk about the Detroit Pistons, who have certainly asserted themselves over a conference that otherwise is just like every other week. I feel something different about it and we'll get to that with some of these teams. But man, Kyle, Detroit just. They seem legit.
- [22:15]
C
Yeah, I mean we were talking about it before we came on. I mean, I kind of feel like they're the story of the league right now. I mean 11 wins in a row, granted, I was kind of looking at, I was kind of looking at their schedule and you start to think like 11. My first instinct is obviously who did they play? And I'm looking, I'm like, well, you know, they beat. I just, I also think there's just credit if you have that instinct to look at the schedule. You know, if you take care of business, you. If you beat teams that you should beat handily and the process is good, I think it's, it's credible. And for them I think the process has been pretty good. Like granted, I mean they're going to have more and more opportunities to pick on the just loathsome, deplorable East. But no, I mean, I think it's. Cade looks like a Superstar. What's he averaging? 27 a game. He looks physical. I think some of the interesting. Does it start with. I mean, I knew this is who Cade was. Is it J. Is it Jalen Duran? Is that the hinging thing that's going on here for you guys?
- [23:14]
A
That's the story. Yeah.
- [23:15]
B
Yeah. I. I think Duran has shifted into a space where he's just kind of unstoppable now in a way where, yes, he's not a superstar, MVP caliber talent just yet. Maybe he will be, frankly, but he's graduated from the kind of big who is finishing opportunities to the kind who is creating those opportunities. Like, you'll see him catch on the role and he'll have three defenders in front of him and he will body one out of the way and he will long step between the other two and then dunk. And so it's not just like runaway, you know, the Ryan Kalkbrenner effect of just like, I'm going to dunk every open attempt I get within two feet of the basket that we were talking about. Like, he's manufacturing this stuff. And so to get him flexing, all of that sort of unstoppable creativity while also flexing out his game in new and exciting ways, you know, attacking in transition, taking the occasional jumper. Like, he's always had the sort of like, wheel and deal passes passing game that is so exciting and frankly, so important for the Pistons. His emergence and the expansion of his game is absolutely what has the Pistons playing this well, well, well.
- [24:16]
A
While also they're playing through lineups where with guys that I didn't know existed before, like Danish. Jenkins is starting next to Kate in the backcourt, and it's just like, didn't know about that guy.
- [24:26]
C
Is this a thing? I think this. I think we have like a surprise daily double. Is this a Dennis? This is crazy. I mean, last five games, 7.6 assists, 2 steals, 20.2 points.
- [24:37]
B
Yes.
- [24:38]
C
I mean, come on.
- [24:40]
B
Awesome. And. And like, look, he's gotten an opportunity because of Detroit's injuries and just kind of turned into a Jaden Ivy surrogate, basically. And I think. I think in playing that well specifically, you're seeing. It's. It's like illuminating something about the Pistons and what they need, because the lineups where Cade is kind of the heliocentric force with Jalen Duran and whatever combination of like, shooters and defenders you want to put out there, those are good lineups. You put him out there with Danis Jenkins and it just pops. It is totally different. It transforms. And some of that is Jenkins effect. The Jenkins effect is real, but it's also just like, what does Cade need and what do the Pistons need to be the best version of themselves? And it turns out they needed a creator like him who, yeah, he's hitting all his threes, but he's also, you know, like really squirrely off the dribble, has that quick burst that they need in the half court. Like he's just enough of all of the sort of the backcourt creativity to give them some of that boost.
- [25:33]
A
Yeah, all credit to Danish Jenkins and his five game sample, like we'll see down the road. But I almost feel like it's a credit more to the foundation of Cade plus Duran at this point and how good Duran has been than perhaps the guys around him to that point. They're cycling through the starting lineup where Beef Stew is now starting because Asar can't play offense. It's like it doesn't fucking matter. Especially when Duncan Robinson is hitting as much as he did. Duran has been an absolute revelation. I said it coming into this season, like, yeah, he had a good start, he had a good second half last year. Let's see if he could put it all together. He's done that and then some. So over this 11 game stretch, three games were of 30 or more points, four were 20 plus and he missed two of those games. And so like he's been dominating in a way that I never expected. And Kyle brought up Kalkbrenner before, so field goal percentage off the roll this season. Top four, Luke Cornett, Giannis, Ryan Kalkbrenner and Jalen Duran. And we're talking about the big old yaks of the league, right? Just giant finishers there. And Cornet and Giannis barely do it because Cornet hasn't played much. Giannis is just doing all these other stuff and so he's just kind of become an unstoppable force, Kyle. And you've seen as a result of that, the defense start to collapse and all these opportunities for these outside guys to the point where it's just like, I think Duran's going to be a good short roll passer because he's passing to wide open spaces at this point.
- [26:56]
C
Yeah, I mean with the, with the Danis Jenkins thing, I mean, I know we can kind of ding it and just be downplay it, be like, well, you know, he's feasting on this opportunity. If that were, you know, if, if it were so easy, they would have already found this person. I mean, they've had Sasser kind of do it here and there when Ivy's healthy.
- [27:10]
A
Ivy was good last year before yeah.
- [27:13]
C
I'm just saying, I, I, what Jenkins is doing, I think is I want to see it continue and extend and everything. Like, I agree with you, Rob, about the squirreliness. He's also pretty squarely on defense there. He had a pretty awesome play. He came out of nowhere to deflect an entry pass. But for Duran, you know, up nine points per game from last year. Also didn't really see. Went to Roman Catholic in Philly. You guys remember Eddie Griffin? Remember him? Back in the day, I was a big Eddie Griffin guy. Oh, man.
- [27:36]
A
Where are we right now? What?
- [27:37]
C
Seaton? Come on, baby. Let's talk some, let's talk some random guys.
- [27:42]
A
We named it Dudes through the Time Warp here.
- [27:45]
C
Yeah, had to do it. Sorry. Shout out Seton Hall 2001. All right, so no, I mean, he also something that I think he has working to his advantage is when you're as fast as Duran is, you know, he, he is feasting on. This is one of my favorite things that active big guys do is if he sees a mismatch in transition, he basically just runs that, that person down like the weak gazelle on the savannah. Like he, he ran after. Granted, he did it to a Kongwu too. He did it to Jalen Johnson, he did it to Dyson Daniels. He'll just go and post those dudes. And he's so big and strong. He just kind of effortlessly. He never looks like he's trying that hard to move people. I mean, the dude's just like a slab of iron. But yeah, he's just attacking and yeah, he looks good. And they're the whole team's defending well without fouling. That's another thing too.
- [28:34]
B
Well, are they. No, they're defending well. But are they doing without fouling because.
- [28:39]
A
They shit out of people.
- [28:40]
B
Yeah, they.
- [28:41]
C
Oh, I had it inverted. I was like, that can't be okay. Yeah, that's not right.
- [28:44]
B
They, they subscribe. Subscribe to the school of like, they can't call them all. And so they just beat the shit out of you all the time in a way that not only works, but I think feeds the spirit of everything they do. Like, you get that sort of body bumping physicality from Durin and from Cade, frankly, and on down the line. I mean, Beef Stew is just like one of the most physical dudes in the league and frankly, like was one of the best bench players in the league and now is just like a fun plug in starter when they need him to be. But like, they will just mess you up and they will wear you down. And I think, Kyle, I love that you zeroed in on that with Duran specifically, because that's kind of what Biggs should be doing in transition. Like guards. Yeah, you're trying to get by guys. Bigs, you're trying to go through guys. And if you can do it successfully without picking up too many charges, it does just make you the sort of force that nobody can take away.
- [29:31]
A
Having said that, though, it almost has given him the license to fuck around with his face up game even more. And I have to say, it's like one of my favorite things is watching him because he's such a hulking presence that the ball is basically like a lemon in his hand. And he has the. The energy of like the star defensive end on your high school team who's just fucking around in gym class where it's like, it doesn't look particularly tight or impressive, but it's just like, oh, oh. And it's like it's working and he's hitting this kind of baby jumper and I'm just like. It's one of the more fascinating things to watch.
- [30:04]
C
That sounded anecdotal. Did you get abused by a tight end and PE class?
- [30:11]
A
I was probably getting abused by everybody, if we're being honest.
- [30:13]
B
I can't tell you how much I would want a, like a gif of you full body in a photo studio doing those ghost crossovers you were just hitting us with. Like, I. I just need that on video and I'm so sad we won't get it. But honestly, like, him operating in that way opens up so many possibilities. Obviously their defense makes their floor so high. Cade, I think, is even more kind of in command of everything that he's doing right now in a way that is super impressive. And not just in terms of the point totals, but just his feel. He's in that space where he's kind of playing with his food in a positive way a little bit. If all that stuff is true and continues to be true, this is a contending team, like, especially in the East. Like, this is a team that could win the Eastern Conference. And some of that is true because the Pistons are on fire right now. Some of it is true because the Knicks have a lot to figure out. Some of it is true because the Cavs have maybe even more to figure out. And so why not the Knicks if that's what the field looks like and that's kind of their chief competition at this point. Or, sorry, why not the Pistons? Like, they. They are building credibility by the day as A team that literally everyone has to take seriously.
- [31:16]
A
So 11 in a row. Kyle mentioned it. Magic, Mavericks, Grizzlies, Jazz, Nets, Sixers, Wizards, Bulls, Sixers, Pacers, Hawks. Four of those games were on the road. And on the one hand, you could look at the. The names there and be like, huh? I don't know. Like, was there a real, like, rigorous contest that really stressed them all that hard? Not necessarily. I guess the Hawks without Trey have been pretty good at, like, coming into last night's game.
- [31:41]
B
And the other, to be fair, Sixers are a quality opponent now.
- [31:45]
A
See, and that's the thing, like, you want to diminish it, but this is basically the east at this point, so they're just beating everyone in front of them. And so especially if they're just stacking wins, it's just going to make them. It's going to give them more confidence in what they do. And also it's building a foundation so that they could layer on guys like Ivy and play through his injury recovery and whatnot and make it just that much easier. And so they feel pretty real to me. Kyle, I don't know about you.
- [32:09]
C
Yeah, I just. I really think that the space for Cade is really. I think you all nailed it. That when I was watching them play the Hawks last night, I was like, man, it just really feels like Cade is picking his spots more than he's had the luxury to in the past. And this is, I think, just having Durin create more of that room pressure and just creating more of those advantages that they can kick it, swing it, attack. I think you're basically just giving Cade's game a Ricola. And I remember those. Those commercials.
- [32:37]
B
You read those.
- [32:38]
C
Well, he can breathe. You remember those commercials where the guys, like, in the sauna with the Russian guys and they're like, breathe, my friend. That's just kind of what's going on with Cade. And it's a relief. It's a relief to come from the trauma of him staring out into space because they. They can't give him any help. And people were like, is Cade good? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just. It's kind of. He's improving. And in this pressure that they're taking off of him is just nice to say. And he's being a bully. That's the other thing for me, when. Bully. Cade's my favorite. Cade, when he had a phase where he was trying to be slinky and fast and stuff, I'm like, nah, man, be a bully. Love it.
- [33:13]
A
I think the trade Stuff with them is also pretty fascinating because they're doing this, as we mentioned, without any of, like the critical young guys that they're just kind of betting on. I mean, Rob, what would you do if you're the Pistons right now? Do you look at the success and be like, we could play around with this because we're switching up the rotation so furiously and guys are in and out, it doesn't really matter. We have the foundation of something. Or are you like, well, we're 13 and 2. Would we really want to rock the boat? Especially considering the recent history, it had been so bad so recently. Is it tough to just like, take apart or mess with something when it's going so well and people are finally behind you?
- [33:49]
B
It always is. And especially because not do you now, not only do you not want to rock the boat, you don't want to rock the developmental environment that is making Jalen Duran this player in particular. I mean, I wouldn't say they're doing it without those young guys like a star. Thompson is still a critical part of this team. Ron Holland is still coming in and playing vital defensive minutes, revving things up, getting into guys like they're still fulfilling the brief. They're just not the standout stars, those supporting guys as of yet. I think if you're going to make a trade, you have to be very careful. And it would have to be somebody who's actually going to move the needle in a serious way. Like it would have to be for someone like Lowry Markkanen, who also is lighting the league on fire right now. And so if you want to sort of reimagine what you're getting from the four spot, that's a conversation worth having. And especially if you can do that in a way that allows you to maintain this sort of kind of ball handling assistance at the two, whether that's Jenkins or Ivy or a player not on the roster right now, that's a conversation worth having. Everything else, I'm kind of loathe to touch and I'm. I'm very resistant because they're coming on this strong.
- [34:50]
A
Yeah, they're still not taking a lot of threes. They're still not making a lot of threes. And that would be my one sticking point. Especially in the east, when you have the Cavs lingering out there. When you have the Knicks, you're going to have to be in a track meet at a certain point, especially the way playoff basketball goes, where just all of a sudden you're just trying to outscore the opponent and so I do worry about that as a sticking point, but that's a down the road sort of conversation.
- [35:11]
D
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- [36:07]
A
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- [36:46]
B
The way they need.
- [36:47]
A
So what if I told you you can get free business Internet forever with Spectrum Business? Just add four mobile lines. Get business Internet, advanced wi fi and security shield for free for life. No contracts, no added fees. All you have to do to find out how you can get free Spectrum Business Internet forever@spectrum.com free for life. That's where you go. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Yeah, why don't we flip to the Hawks now who are similarly kind of cooking Without Trey Young, 7 and 3 since he's been out. They played the Pistons last night. So in this 10 game stretch, Kyle so 14th on offense, fifth on defense. Haven't seen the Hawks up there in Defense that long. I kind of feel like whatever you thought about Trey previously, you could read into this 10 game stretch if you're like, well, he's a civ on defense. You can't really put together a high level playoff contender when he's out there. Cause he'll just get picked on. You could believe in that. Or you could look at the offense, which has been better than I expected. More democratic, more flow to what's going on there. I imagine the passes per game are like off the charts at this point in comparison to what they used to be. On the other end, turnovers are spiking, little disjointed. Jalen Johnson's been awesome, but it's just like, can you really run everything through like all these bigger wings? Which part of that divide do you find yourself on?
- [38:13]
C
It kind of reminds me of what the Raptors have been going through where you have some guys who are sort of in this lane of have they graduated to trustworthy primary status. And it kind of, it's amazing how, you know, we've listed all these teams that had surprised us and I kind of wanted to go through and say like surprise took each of these teams from where to where. But the Hawks specifically, I'd be interested to ask answer that question. But yeah, that's kind of what I see when I'm watching them. It's, it's. Which of these guys has, I mean, Jalen Johnson, is that the guy that we came into the league, how are we satisfied with his? Because we were ready to ascend him, level him up to dude status. Has he gotten there yet? Is he, what mode of offense is he most. I throw that to the, I throw that to the crowd for, for you.
- [38:57]
B
All, I think he is a dude. And really the Hawks during this stretch are kind of experiencing and coming to terms with everything that it means. If Jalen Johnson is your best all around player, and frankly he might be even when Trey comes back, like he's been that good and he's that good on both sides of the ball. That's a conversation worth entertaining. You also have to like, you also have to understand the reality of what that means and the limitations that come with Jalen Johnson being your best all around player. And with this sort of democratic like the flow and the process for the Hawks feels so good, but they run into some real lulls in terms of their creation. Like they, they juice, they just will have those possessions where they pass it around a bunch and don't quite accomplish anything that they need to and that's where you miss Trey. That's where you miss a playmaker who's that dynamic. And there's no replacing that. There's no faking that. Like, you either have that sort of creativity or you don't. Maybe you can win a lot of games if your defense is elite enough and the offense is just kind of thinking about and going about things the right way. And Jalen Johnson sort of embodies that. Is he going to get the Hawks over the top in the East? I doubt it based on anything we've seen. And that's fine. Like, he's an awesome player, but this is the, the reality that comes with the surprise.
- [40:09]
A
Yeah, I'm calling this kind of interlude the look how good Jalen is sort of era for the Hawks. And it's been a nice reminder because just the way he's been able to assimilate and like take on more playmaking responsibilities so seamlessly and so quickly has been illuminating to me. But there have been times where it's just like he's forcing things and it's just like it's not the ideal role. And so I ultimately end up not saying that they don't need Trey, but they need a more muted version of him, the one that's going to buy in. And I think that's encouraging not only because maybe it forces him to play more Hawk style and Snyder style more than them catering to him, which has been the problem in years past, but also, I wonder, long term, Kyle, as you're talking about him not getting an extension and whatnot, what you're going to do if he decides that he just wants the money or he wants the respect or whatever it is, or he wants another opportunity. Like maybe you could hold the line because you can get by with some of the good things Trey does, but not necessarily Trey himself.
- [41:06]
C
What would that entail? I mean, does that entail getting off the. Like we're just asking him to get off the ball faster because we've seen that he's not really super bought into moving without the ball like we were talking about when we were talking about the draft and who they could target to, to optimize this. Is that, is that the question? Because Trey just is one of those guys. Like, I, I don't know if I think it would involve him having to do a little bit of both. Right. It'd have to be him seeing if, if his pull up action is there, seeing if his primaries read is there and, and ejecting from that really quickly because I think if he does that, I. I think that that could send Atlanta's offense into. Into orbit in a way that I don't.
- [41:44]
A
I don't.
- [41:45]
C
I was watching them last night, and I'm just like. I thought Detroit made them look a little skinny at times. It just seemed like they were. I thought, like, Detroit's process overall was just better. And it kind of seemed like Atlanta was, like, really spinning plates to try to create offense, and if you come in, you don't want to go full trade when he comes back, I think it would just have to be a middle ground. And to me, it seems like that's probably what it would be like, him getting off the ball faster, him moving without the ball a little bit.
- [42:10]
A
Detroit has a way because what they do is so streamline and, like, efficient to the bone. Like, it makes other teams look overcomplicated, and that's what they were looking like at time there. I love Trey. I've come to appreciate what he does more. I think the problem also is, like, his shot has been gone for, like, over a season at this point, and so if you're moving him off the ball, is that create more complications? I think part of the reason why he leaned into pass first trade last year was to his credit. I think it served the team best, but also, like, he kind of had to, because when he had the ball, like, I don't think he was threatening as much, and I already think teams were looking at him quizzically because those deep balls that he kind of built his fame around to a certain extent, like, hadn't been there, by and large in the NBA. And so it's complicated. Ultimately, it's a good problem to have because you could basically say we don't need to live and die by your success. The one other player who's, like, kind of been more interesting in this setup is a Neko Kongwu who just feels more suited to this switch. Everything, wings everywhere sort of lineup. Rob, thank you. Even Kristaps, who obviously played with a lot of wings in Boston, but is a little bit more not as fleet of foot. Okongo just seems unleashed when he's playing in this sort of setup here.
- [43:27]
B
He definitely does. He. I mean, he's such a hard player to pin down because there are certain matchups that just don't suit him, where he doesn't have the size or physicality to hang with certain bigs. And that's where, in theory, maybe you would want, you know, a healthy rim protector like kp if he was out there or to play them together in some capacity. It's just hard to know if he's going to ever be like the Bam Adebayo level version of himself. And that's kind of the gap, right? There's similar sorts of players, similar switchability, similar playmaking, although a little more muted in Onyeka's case. But he's vital toward that ultimate strategy and that style of play. And I think if you're going to chart away that Bring Back Trey is a successful, you know, like, really brings the Hawks to fruition in terms of the best version of this team that they could be. A lot of it comes from a conc. A lot of it comes from the activity defensively that a lot of these other guys are bringing on those switches on their pickups. And it's, it's a congu. It's also having like really active hands from Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels and Alexander Walker, Keaton Wallace, frankly, also like Mo Gay picking up and like wreaking havoc. Like they have a lot of guys who are mucking things up defensively. Where you can see the Hawks surviving, you know, Luke Canard getting picked on, I think they can survive Trey Young getting picked on. It's just like, can you only have one of those guys on the floor at the same time? And can you benefit from the way defenses respect Trey more than his actual 3 point percentage? Like, I care that like no defender in their right mind is going to leave Trey Young open for a spot up three. That matters regardless of whether he's hitting from 30ft.
- [45:02]
A
So ultimately, Kyle, are you coming away from this stretch encouraged by the Hawks or do you think about them any. That's a better question. Do you think about them any differently now than you did before when they were kind of a little bit in the muck to start the season?
- [45:19]
C
Well, when V. Craigie is playing this confidently.
- [45:22]
B
I tried to tell you about V. Craichy. You know, I got laughed off this podcast. Embarrassing. Not for me, but embarrassing.
- [45:29]
A
That's the last time we'll do that, I'll tell you that.
- [45:35]
C
I. I still, I still think I'm just kind of in the middle. I'm definitely not as high as I was in the. In the off season. I think the idea of it was. Was very enticing, granted. We just need to see more kp. We need to see it. We need to see it all together. I guess it's. It's similar to. You have something that is working sort of that, that is a decent proof of concept that Needs a little pushing in the right direction. And what, what is kp? What is Trey going to do? What are they going to make this look like when they come back? That, that just. I don't feel confident about that just because. I don't know, it just feels like we're, we're still a step away, a move away. I don't know if that involves Trey not being there. I don't know. Where's your old confidence level? I'm wishy washy. I just feel wishy washy about him.
- [46:20]
A
Can I ask you this question as a setup? So I think we all kind of agree Detroit, Cleveland, Knicks might be where the power structure lies when it comes down. When we're in like April or something. Those might be the top three teams. Knees the other three, the other four teams kind of into the mix here. Raptors, Sixers, Hawks, Heat. I guess you could throw the Bulls in there as well for five. Which of those do you like the most? Rob?
- [46:46]
B
It's a great question. I mean, I guess it depends on what you're asking because like, the Hawks are a team who they look like. A good Eastern Conference team right now, but not a wild card Eastern Conference team. Like, do I really think that the Hawks, given everything we've seen so far, would be a real threat to those top three in the East? I don't like, I just don't think that' been there on the court as of yet. Maybe it will be. So do any of those other teams pose that chance? I think that's where to go off the board a little bit. The fully actualized version of the Magic might be compelling in that way. And they're sort of like just in the mix right now, but are showing enough of what they could be that I still take them at least somewhat seriously. And most importantly, I think they defensively have the personnel to challenge some of these top teams in the East. They still have to do it and they still have to score above like just a purely putrid level, which has proven to be kind of elusive for them. But maybe they can do that, maybe they can't. Otherwise I just don't see a lot in this sort of middle of the east pack to like, that's that inspiring in a like, end game sense. It's inspiring now in November and those teams have all been kind of surprises in their own right. But the, the top three is the top three for a reason.
- [47:53]
C
And once the Magic move Paolo at the deadline, okay, and realize, you know, I think they got another level to go Up. They've been looking spunky without him. I'm kidding, obviously. Don't hit me.
- [48:05]
A
Up. Are you kidding?
- [48:07]
B
But you're not kidding because this is who you are.
- [48:09]
C
No, Rob, you said it over text. It was like. You were like, well, here are his stats. I'm like, yeah, both. They are great, though.
- [48:15]
B
They're great stats, but it's the last five games before he got hurt. You know, we're just. Just skimming over that part as we praise the Magic without Paolo Banchero, a very good basketball player.
- [48:25]
C
It's just interesting, that's all.
- [48:27]
A
They've been fun as hell to watch when PA hasn't been there. Like, Franz just plays so much freer. Tristan De Silva has been kind of a revelation in the starting lineup. I don't know in terms of, like, seriousness, but I. I do like watching them more when. When he hasn't been there, I'll say that.
- [48:44]
B
Oh, for sure. Like, everything they do is easier when it's only one of Palo or Franz. The question is, is that version of easy going to get you anywhere, or can you make something out of the more challenging model? And like a lot of the contenders that we see are built in some way on a challenging model. There's something about them that kind of shouldn't work, but does. Draymond Green can't shoot, and yet he is the hub of one of the most potent offenses in NBA history. Right. There's always like some crux of something like that at the heart of those teams. The Magic have a long way to become the Dynasty Warriors.
- [49:14]
C
Same thing at all. Those two guys balance each other. I love the idea of it. I mean, come on.
- [49:20]
B
My point is not that Steph and Draymond don't balance each other. It's did Draymond and Kavon Looney balance each other? Like, there is a contradiction in a lot of these teams that that overwhelming talent kind of puts aside, and that's always been the question with the Magic is like, can our Franz and Paolo together. Overwhelming enough to. To conquer that stuff? And we still have yet to see it.
- [49:40]
A
Franz and Paulo the comp has always been more Brown and Tatum, where it's just you need everything else, the context, in order to really make it work, because they do overlap a ton. I should have met. I should have brought up the Magic in that kind of set of teams. Bucks also as well, because the Bucks are currently in 11th and they are one and a half games back of third, which is the Toronto Raptors, because that's the Eastern Conference, baby. Why don't we talk about the Raptors? Cause they're one of our teams on our list and we're already kind of circling them. They've been good 9 and 5, but again, Rob, I just, I don't know what to make of these teams because on the one hand, like, I think just having two waves of solid ass guys, which is literally the note that I have down here, I think that has made the difference in the east in this early going.
- [50:27]
B
It's made a huge difference. But as far as what to make of them, there are only a handful of teams in the NBA right now that are top 10 on both sides of the ball. And one of them is the Toronto Raptors, which is crazy to think about, but comes from that sort of balance. And I think we're seeing all of the virtues of it right there is. There's a hierarchy to the way that the Raptors play, but they are not overly reliant on any one guy or any one action or any one type of shot. And I think sometimes we underestimate the impact that that can have on opponents right when there's no one thing to zero in on in a regular season. Scouting report, as you're whisking from hotel to hotel, like, how do you get this team under wraps? How do you. How do you really understand what it is they are and what it is they do? And I think the fact that they are kind of elusive and adaptive and always evolving is what makes them a difficult matchup at this point in the season. And so, like, I know there are natural questions that come up with any balanced team as far as, like, what is this going to look like in the playoffs? How is this going to, like, like fair down the line. We can get to all that. I just want to say, like, full stop right now. This is awesome. No snark, no qualifiers, no exception. Like, if you're playing with this kind of balance and being this successful, that is an awesome story.
- [51:37]
C
Is it just as simple as Ingram? Is this sort of a version of what Houston needed, where Houston needed? It's probably not. It's the same, but I just think is, is it just Ingram buying in and playing better? I know we, we jeered him for the, for the throwing and the frustration and stuff like that. He's not an. I always thought Ingram was a good passer. Like, he's, he's not bad. He's a, he's a good passer, but it's like he doesn't ever graduate to full blown manipulative status where he's, you know, it's like, I'm either scoring or I'm getting off it. You don't see him, like, watching to see if guys are moving their foot and, like, rifling like a. No, look, he's not that type of passer. But the simple level of. Of him buying in, I think has sort of. Tell me if you agree or disagree with this. I think it's sort of taken Scotty and RJ's sludge of not being credible primaries themselves. I just think it's kind of set it into a balance that has. That has. It's not always the prettiest even. It's not that, you know, that Hornets game the other night wasn't gorgeous, but to me, that seems like that's what's going on. Right. Ingram's not being brilliant, but he's being good. And I think that's bringing balance to the force for the Raptors.
- [52:44]
B
He's being brilliant at the thing he needs to be brilliant at, which is tough shot making, specifically from the mid range, like, just canning all of those shots right now. And so, yeah, the playmaking is there. And this is the part of the Raptors that I have a hard time getting a hold on is like, how does a team that doesn't have, like, a sole dedicated playmaker that, as you just said, Kyle, like, Brandon Ingram is not the guy who is like, passing dudes open necessarily, but he is reading, reading and reacting in an intelligent way. How is a team that doesn't have that one guy this good at taking care of the ball? Because everything is so malleable and everything is so unpredictable. And so far, they've been pretty good at keeping their turnovers down, limiting their mistakes. Like, there's just a lot of good players, to your point, jv, about, like, how deep they are, like, good players playing within themselves has taken the Raptors a long way. And for Brandon Ingram, his version of playing within himself is like, hit the shots that no one else on this team can hit that you are uniquely good at.
- [53:36]
A
Yeah, I don't know if this is necessarily Ingram, like, optimizing what everyone's doing so much as it is, it forces everybody into the better role, which by and large has been doing less. Like, I think Scotty Barnes is success this season. He's been quite good. I think that. I think the takeaway has been like, actually, it's okay if you don't do everything. We tried that. It didn't work. Gangbusters, maybe down the road, maybe if you develop that end, we'll get back to it. But right now you get your little Bosch time when. When Ingram isn't out on the floor, but you're playing more of a role when he's out there. And it kind of works. RJ's similar thing. He does something really well. He's a kind of a. He's just a bull in a china shop, especially in transition. Like, go do that quickly. Just be a connector. Ingram even, like, he had that amazing run with the Pelicans when he was the go to guy, and they just were getting by on just like spunk and verve and. And just like piss and vinegar and all this stuff. But you saw when you tried to add. Had someone as domineering on top of that in Zion, it kind of butted heads, right? But everyone else there. There really isn't that person that's going to insert themselves that needs to play like this way or that way. And so it all kind of works. And so it's one of the few instances, Kyle, where I'm like, you know, you want to pinpoint, like, the star guy, and I guess that's Ingram because, like, he's doing a lot of the ball handling, the lion's share of it at this point. But I wouldn't say that this is like, this is a real, like, collective 60 win Hawks thing where it's just like. But all five of those motherfuckers in the All Star game because that's what's working for them.
- [55:06]
C
Well, you just said it. It's not an optimizing. And then you just described how he's optimizing. I'm not trying to nitpick you there, jb, but are you editing on the fly there?
- [55:14]
A
Yeah.
- [55:15]
C
Role reversal, baby. Yeah. Last five games, they're seventh in offensive rating. And Robbie, you mentioned it, just taking care of the ball. I mean, just cutting down on the wastefulness goes a long way. It's made maybe not gorgeous. They're second overall in turnover percentage. Like, so they're. They're doing well on that. And I think there's just, just. They have enough athletes who, you know, decisively attacking, whatever it is, a closeout, a switch and any kind of advantage. And then you get a little bit of, you know, Emmanuel Quickley being a little bit more of who he's supposed to be, you know, you know, get off it. Relocate, hit a three. You know, they. They definitely. Their second unit is kind of fun too, with Mamu dealing with Grady Dick. And I was just entertained by the Way that that was clicking.
- [56:00]
B
The combination of Shed. Murray Boyles. Who did we settle on a nickname for? Murray Boyles.
- [56:05]
C
Where do we land it? I give up. I'm gonna say it, but you guys.
- [56:08]
A
Can join me if you want.
- [56:09]
B
Yeah, well, neither of those is valid at this point.
- [56:12]
A
Did you guys see that there's a Chunkasaurus Instagram account? That's probably what I got the inspiration from. It's all about, like, chunky boys, you know, like, are you a follower?
- [56:22]
C
I think I just opened up a mineshaft of.
- [56:26]
A
Okay, so we got to pay the copyrights if you want to go to that extent, apparently.
- [56:31]
B
So shout out to the Chonkasaurus Instagram account. A source of endless fascination for Jesus.
- [56:36]
C
Justin came across just by mistake, but.
- [56:39]
B
It got lodged in his brain, by the way.
- [56:41]
A
It's just nuts how much of, like, what I consume now is just being fed to me by just, like, some asshole online. Like, the amount of things that, like, I've been swayed by by Bart Fart Muncher 69. And just, like, whatever he's doing, like, what is happening, just like, he's, like, cutting glass. AI. Like fruits. I get a lot of that lately.
- [57:03]
B
I want to. I need to petition Victoria and Isaiah. Can we. Next time. Just next time Justin's chiron comes up, can we get it to say fart muncher 69, please? That's all I want.
- [57:13]
A
Just to recap.
- [57:14]
C
Justin's like, it's amazing how much stuff fart muncher69 feeds me on the Internet. What is happening? You got on me for talking about Eddie Griffin.
- [57:25]
A
I'm just talking about the algorithm, man. It just takes you to dark, mysterious places, including Chunkasaurus.
- [57:31]
B
You were talking about the algorithm. I was trying to talk about Sandro Mamukeleshvilly. Honestly, just been one of the most, like, a real. An actual consequential pickup for the Toronto Raptors. And with that bench group that Kyle is talking about, there's just, like, a little of everything in a way that is very appealing and definitely works. But to what we were talking about with the hierarchy, I mean, I think Scotty Barnes has been their best player. I think Brandon Ingram is kind of in that alpha mode by what he's asked to do. But part of the reason we are here talking about the Raptors as a surprising team is because Scotty Barnes has been a total badass on defense, because I think he's been relieved of some of that responsibility of being a primary. Like, he's guarding the big wings. He's guarding the Giannis type bigs. He's guarding actual centers. He's guarding LaMelo Ball. Like, he's kind of being asked to do everything. And he's been so disruptive as far as getting in the passing lanes, denying those opportunities to some of the best players that the Raptors are going against. And they're here because of that stuff. And they're here because they kind of pulled the reins in on how aggressive their defense was earlier this season. Like, they needed to settle down because there are ways to be aggressive without selling out everything you're doing, and they've managed to find that balance.
- [58:44]
A
Yeah, I think the key for Scotty is be more Pascal, not more Kawhi. And I think there are visions of grandeur when he first started. And I think there were a lot of comps to Kawhi just considering his trajectory and just like, potential and how he can go from A to B.
- [58:59]
B
Don't you think that's good advice for all of us? Like, shouldn't we all be more Pascal?
- [59:02]
A
Unless Kawhi, I would personally like to get paid for doing nothing.
- [59:07]
B
So fair. Honestly asked and answered. Entirely fair.
- [59:12]
A
But yeah, I mean, it calls into question. Like, you know, you. You basically changed your entire team in order to just end up with Pascal again. But that's fine. He was great and everybody loves him. All right, why don't we flip to our last team, the Phoenix Suns, who I saw in person last night for an 8:00pm start. This game on national TV started at 8:00pm Pacific time.
- [59:36]
B
Yeah.
- [59:37]
A
Who on the east coast is like, oh, honey, I know it's midnight, but I have to stay up and watch the Blazers without Drew Holiday and Jeremy Grant and Scoot Henderson and practically half their team play the Suns. Suns are pretty feisty this year. Like, put the kids to bed. I'll be up all night. Like, why are we doing this?
- [59:56]
B
But do you think moving it to 10 o' clock Eastern would, would pull in that audience? Do you think the hour is really going to change anything?
- [60:03]
A
I think you would check in on that. Like, I'm, I'm up and functioning and like, cruising through the TV at 10 if I'm an adult on a weeknight, but if it's like 11 and then 12, like, give me a break. This is ridiculous.
- [60:16]
B
I just. Justin, you are in the favorite time zone here and you're complaining about a late tip off and you also complain about our early podcast. It's like, what is the acceptable range of daytime for you?
- [60:26]
C
This is a weekly. It's Becoming a weekly thing.
- [60:29]
A
Yeah, I. 10am is the perfect time to podcast. 7pm is the perfect time to basketball.
- [60:35]
B
Okay. God forbid it's at 8:00pm I mean, how will we ever recover?
- [60:38]
A
Okay, I was falling asleep halfway through and it didn't help because the game eventually got away from the Blazers to the point where like they basically put you asleep. But also like just last thing on this, like the NBA wants to talk all like we hear all this chorus of people complaining about soft tissue injuries, as they should because there's a lot of them right now. I can't remember the last time we've seen notable guys just be out for short term injuries at this point in the season. And it's something we need to be tracking here. Switching up the time isn't going to help you. Like just randomly being like, oh, all of a sudden you were going to switch up your, your, your calendar and how you do things. Everyone's so programmed in order to. So they're optimized at 7 or 7:30. Oh, 8pm it's fine. We don't give a shit.
- [61:18]
B
I don't think the calf strains are coming from an 8pm tip. I'm going to be honest. I think the science on that might be a little fussy.
- [61:25]
A
The through line there is. We pretend to. The NBA pretends to care about the health and wellness of the players, but they don't. They're just cashing those sweet, sweet NBC checks.
- [61:34]
C
They say one thing and then they have them play at 8pm it's just unbelievable. It's just unbelievable. I told you all. I feel like when I look up at the ticker at the top and, or whatever it's called, the Chiron at the top and, and it says east coast time. It says. Okay, you know, this game's tipping at 10:30. I feel like, like I'm looking. It's like interstellar and I'm looking on the horizon and I see that wave coming and I'm like, I'm gonna drown. I can't do this. It's so daunting. I have a, I have a complaint though, if you don't mind. I tweeted about this. I despise the 2k overlay thing that NBC is doing. They gotta stop. It's the. I. I love you guys. I'm excited that you're back, but we. I don't need a constant label on Denny Abdia as he's going and then it turns red when he catches. Well, no, yeah, obviously I saw that. I don't either. Like there were, there were plays last night where the graphics were so big that it was over top of Denny when he was shooting the ball. Like, it's just, let's just. I don't need it. Do you guys agree with me? Am I just. Or at least put the names under them. Like, what's it for? Who's. I don't get it.
- [62:41]
B
I don't know who it's for. There are some things that just don't need to be innovated. Like we honestly like higher definition cameras Once we hit H 1080p, like we're pretty good as far as broadcasting games goes. Like, I don't know that you need to reinvent the wheel here. And yet every, every new broadcast team, every new like content provider with the NBA tries to do some version of this thing.
- [63:04]
A
You say that, but we're, we're literally being sent new fancy 4K cameras just to be on Netflix. So.
- [63:09]
B
But that's because our product can be optimized, Justin. We could be better, faster, stronger. I, I mean, I, I don't know if you looked back at a 2020 NBA broadcast maybe bad example considering the setting of those things. A 2018 NBA broadcast, was it so flawed? Like, was it, was it so unwatchable that we needed a prompt as to who was holding the ball? Watch the game or don't, but the play by play guy is going to tell you who has the ball.
- [63:34]
C
Let him do his job. Let him do his job.
- [63:36]
B
And that's what it is, Kyle. It's AI taking human jobs and we don't support that on this podcast.
- [63:42]
C
Yeah, there's a point, there was a point where Shaden drove to the basket and for, I'm serious, a fraction of a second, a 40% thing popped up. He's like, oh yeah, 40%. I think it was 40% from. He was moving so fast. I'm just, I just don't, I don't need it. I don't need, I don't need the 2k ification of every broadcast. It's just, it's not necessary.
- [64:00]
A
Was it 40% at the rim? Because these guys kind of.
- [64:04]
B
But those, but those 40% are all dunks. So, you know, it is exciting.
- [64:09]
C
I'll forget about the other ones.
- [64:10]
B
So our big surprise is the three of us being cranky.
- [64:13]
A
Yes. Well, let me bridge the gap here. To the Suns, who they in and of themselves are surprises because they're nine and six. Six. Somehow, some way it does feel like they have streamlined what they're doing. And it Just feels like it just works. You guys talked at length earlier this season about the defensive pressure of the Portland Trailblazers and how much success that they were having with the Wings. The one score and the big old guy at the rim. The Suns look pretty similar last night on the court. It just so happens that the one guy and the one scorer is Devin fucking Booker and Enzo helps in that regard. But it's funny because we talked going into the season about all the consternation about the defense and the war of words between Matt Ishbia and actually Michael Pena, but it seems like they had. They built their entire identity around defense.
- [65:03]
B
Yeah.
- [65:03]
A
And it's actually working to a certain extent because they're just overwhelmed with these three and D sorts of guys. And so it's working. I don't know the viability of it when the competition starts to kick up because they've had a pretty cake schedule thus far. But I don't know, Rob. Like, I think they can only be so bad because the outline is just one that we've seen work time and time. Again.
- [65:23]
B
The outline does work. And to your point about what their defense is like, just having guys like Dylan Brooks and Ryan Dunn making it harder for opponents like the Blazers to even get into their stuff raises the floor significantly. And a lot of that comes from something that is not even the structure of the team. I think it's the spirit of the team. I think a lot of. And maybe those things are related. Depending on who your personnel is, certainly that like plays a part. But last season the Suns carried themselves like a team that had already won. And now they carry themselves like a team that has to earn everything. And that like, that is the fundamental difference in their play. Like, sometimes basketball is as simple as understanding how hard you have to work to win. And this is a team that is working their asses off all the time to the point that every role player who stayed on from last season looks better and more comfortable. And some of that is the flow of the offense. Some of that is the like slap the floor kind of energy of the defense. There is just a collaborative spirit there that really, really works. And I think the depth has been part of that pleasant surprise too. Like it all just kind of clicks together in a way where they are a high energy team that feeds into being a high execution team basically all the time. They're going to make you earn it for 48 minutes.
- [66:34]
C
I, I credit Matt Ishbia and his scrappiness on Twitter. I think that tweet motivated them.
- [66:40]
B
You Think so. Lit a fire.
- [66:42]
C
I think it lit a fire and I think it's just been, it's rippled out from there. If you look at their big man rotation last year it was Plumlee, Nick Richards who love him, but come on. And then Yousef Nurkic. So not exactly, you know, an iron curtain around the basket. And this year, I mean like, you know, Mark Williams jumps at a lot of stuff. He gets a lot of stuff. He's froggy, but he's, he's at least a little bit more of a springy body. We'll see if Mile Watch can come along and contribute. He's, he's a longer term kind of a thing, but I think they just, they improve their room preference pressure. I think they just, it's more, it's more of a balanced beast. Whereas last year it was all pull up shooting, not as much rim pressure. It's just a more competent team. You know, let's celebrate the little wins. You know, like you were saying, I don't know that it's necessarily going to hold up against the scrutiny of the top stuff in the west, but to go from where they were, which was very depressing, it was very sad to watch my Phoenix friends online just slowly descend into depression and, and this, this is a step in the right direction first. Yeah, they've, they've definitely been a big surprise for me.
- [67:43]
A
Dylan Brooks now has had success with three separate teams just by galvanizing them by how much of a psychopath he is. And it's gotten to the point now where I'm starting to reconsider Memphis, where it's just like, I think we all probably agreed he, he was the fall guy for a lot of things that were going wrong there. But you know, Brooks doesn't help himself definitely a lot, you know, in a lot of different ways. But what he does is successful for as much as you need it, right? He's the guy that just like sets the foundation and then after you have two years of him, you grow tired of him and then he moves along, but he's doing it again and it feels like if anything he's kind of the emotional totem of this entire team. And you're right. It just feels like there's just so much effort and there's a gritty mentality which compared to last season where it's just, just moody complaining and just people trying to go for their own shots. It's, it's, it's, it's tough. Like Kevin Durant is an immaculate basketball player, but like he sucks as a teammate, by and large. If you rely on him to be the one spurring you, like, he's not the type of number one who's going to trickle down the energy. And so it works, man. And then just like, I'm surprised even saying it out loud, but, like, Brooks is. He deserves his followers to a certain degree.
- [69:00]
B
I even think Kevin Durant sucks as a teammate. Might be a little extreme, but you're.
- [69:04]
A
Like, you know what I mean? Just like as the emotional focal point.
- [69:08]
C
Yeah.
- [69:08]
B
Yes. And like, for. For as talented as all those guys in Phoenix were, like, Devin Booker is in that category too. An awesome all around player, but is not a galvanizing force. Is not necessarily. I mean, he's vocal in like a chirping, shit talk kind of way, but not necessarily vocal in a rah, rah, I'm gonna raise everybody's level kind of way. And that's all right. Like, some superstars, some stars are not that sort of player, but you have to find that energy from somewhere. And the Dylan Brooks honeymoon, which, look, will run its course, as you alluded to, it's like a year and a half to two years. That is about the timeline. This is the fun part. This is the part where you're. It's. It's all sowing and no reaping as of yet. And so where the Suns are is exciting. And I think the question with the Dylan Brooks type of team is like, how do you keep that going? How do you harness this into renewable energy? And like, who are the other guys who are going to get you riding the same kind of way wave?
- [69:59]
C
Dylan Brooks is sort of like, his career arc is turning into one of those, like, anthology TV shows where the stranger comes to town and there's like a story arc and then at the end of the season, he's waving at them as he leaves town. I just feel like that's just kind of what's happened.
- [70:13]
B
It's the real Boyd Holbrook type, you know, just a mysterious presence.
- [70:17]
A
Right. Well, it's funny because in Portland we have discussions about why the Blazers drafted Yang over. Such a coward probably every day. Do you. I still. Well, people kind of talk at them, at me, when, when they're talking about. I still think young. We. We have no idea. But Coward has been awesome. I do wonder if the better question is why did they draft Malawatch and not Coward? Because the. The Brooks trajectory is like, yeah, you'll. It will run its course. But you're also wondering after you get to a certain Level, like how do you get higher? And what they do need are ceiling razors long term. And if they didn't have mile watches not playing because as Kyle alluded to, the center rotation is fine and my watch just kind of looks like a mess. He was getting actually brutalized by Yong and G League the other night. I think they need that one guy in order to spark them because they're missing the offensive pot. They've been fine when Booker is off the court this year because Gillespie's been good and Grayson Allen's been very good.
- [71:16]
B
Holy Grayson. Where did this Grayson Allen come from?
- [71:18]
A
From I. He has these moments. He had it like his first year in Phoenix.
- [71:23]
B
But I do think a moment. This is like weeks on end of him being just like a legit almost 20 a game scorer.
- [71:29]
A
Yeah. But I think that's gonna run its course eventually and they are going to need a number two, like a proper number two next to Booker. And the one thing that's unfortunate is like if they had Coward in there instead of Malwatch, that's like the type of franchise changing sort of pick difference that would, would make a difference.
- [71:45]
B
It could be, I would say a couple things. One, Cedric Coward is off to an amazing start. We have raved about him all season. Like we are fans of what he is putting on the table right now. Who's to say who he's going to be in two or three years? Who's to say like where the ceiling is going to come down and like, we just don't know. And as far as like moves that could transform the team, I think there's an argument that if you think the Suns are going to be good enough to compete in the present tense, the guys you should be swinging on could be more projects. Could be like, okay, we have a rotation that we like. We have a lot of role players we like. Why not see what Malawatch can be? Why not see if he can be the sort of big that opens things up for your team long term in a way that maybe you believe Mark Williams will be that guy, maybe you don't. I don't think anyone believes Nick Richards will be that guy. With all due respect. So it's like maybe he could be transformational in his own way even if he's not Cedric Cowardly.
- [72:36]
C
Yeah, I mean I'm thinking about why they wouldn't have taken Coward. I mean maybe they just saw the need and, and it was sort of a bet on, you know, Rasheer Fleming. You know, I didn't believe in Rasheer as Much as other people did. Maybe they saw those two guys and thought value. Not that, you know, value's better in a distance between those two players. It's not as we don't think it's that big. Maybe that was a bet on that. The other thing that we haven't really even talked about here is, is the Jalen Green of it all? I mean, you're talking about an offensive pocket. Is he going to be able to be contained and bottled in a way that's going to be conducive to helping it without spilling out and corrupting the whole thing? Because that's sort of been the Jalen Green talking about narrative arcs of a career that's been his so far.
- [73:16]
B
Yeah. What does history tell you, Kyle?
- [73:19]
C
It says he'll probably be waving as he leaves town or just peeling out as he leaves town for the next destination where he gets the opportunity to be a star. Quotes?
- [73:29]
B
Yeah, like, I want to give him a chance with this team for sure because they could use some of what he brings to the table. Without a doubt, Justin, just zero. We don't know that he's due to be out for quite a while. Even still. And coming back from a hamstring even when he does always worries me with a player like Jalen Green when you have that kind of like soft tissue mobility restraint, because the best parts of him are driving parts of him. They are agile, they're athletic, they're explosive. Of who's he going to be even when he comes back in five weeks or. Or however long he's supposed to be on the shelf. So it's like there are layered concerns with Jalen Green, compounded by the fact that, like, they can be a good defensive team with him on the floor, but they're probably a better defensive team without him on the floor.
- [74:11]
A
Yeah, they've developed structure without him. Jalen Green, as we've seen, just breaks structure pretty routinely. The two games that he played were fine. He did okay. Wasn't a lot of passing on his end. But like, like they need the scoring juice. I think they're going to need it as the season goes along. Even though right now their. Their offense is better than their defense, at least from the rating standpoints. But, you know, we'll see if he's just splitting time with Booker and you're largely relying on him to run the second units and he's playing mostly against second units, it's not a awful role for him. But ultimately you're going to have to overlap those guys and finish games with them because of what his just reputation suggests. But at this point, I'm more optimistic about the Suns than I ever imagined I'd be at this point. So this is all found money regardless of what happens with him.
- [74:56]
B
This is just a legit play in caliber team and that was not something we could just pencil in in our preseason power rankings. I think we had a lot of skepticism about almost every element of this roster and how it was going to play out. And I hope we, I hope we get a version where Jalen Green brings out something totally new in them and we're talking about them a month or two months from now as a team that's even taking another step forward. I think our only hesitation is because they've been this good because Colin Gillespie and Grayson Allen have been as good as they've been. If, if those guys had been disasters, we'd be begging for more Jalen Green for a team like this. And it's so because the overall operation is so stout and so deep and so successful in working off of each other. This is another case where I almost don't want to shake things up too much because I'm so impressed by what's going on there.
- [75:40]
A
Yeah, and credit to Jordan, who we haven't mentioned here. Just two championship winning coaches tried and failed their hands at trying to bring some sort of semblance of consistency or anything to the Suns. Previously completely different task here with like younger, hungrier guys. But he is the right coach for this team and it seems like there's a real symbiosis going there. And so credit the Suns. Fun and exciting. Haven't said that since the finals run. Maybe because that's when the Eaton stuff originally soured.
- [76:09]
B
A sobering thought, but I think you're right. Like it's been a long time since they've been both and so that they've been so successful while also been just like so energizing to watch a welcome addition to the league pass rotation to say the least.
- [76:21]
A
Yeah, that's what they say about this podcast. Fun, successful. I hope they say that.
- [76:27]
B
We are certainly both of those things. No one can argue it. Like, go ahead.
- [76:32]
C
We'll see if Fart Monster 69 agrees with you.
- [76:35]
B
I think it was Fart muncher. Can we get a correct fart Fart Fart muncher.
- [76:39]
C
Sure.
- [76:39]
B
Okay. Yeah, I can't keep it.
- [76:40]
C
I can't keep up.
- [76:41]
A
Shouts to my guy Bart. All right, we'll be back on Sunday. We'll continue the good vibes and marking some of the successful teams with our One Month Awards, which we typically do after Believe it or Not One Month. We'll do that on Sunday. And then we got something special for you for Thanksgiving. Check that out. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll talk to you next time. Must be 21 + and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 + and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.