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The Thunder Are Your 2025 NBA Champions. Plus, What’s Houston’s Ceiling With KD? | The Group Chat
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- [00:00]
Justin Ferrier
This episode is brought to you by Buzzballs. Biggies ready to go. Cocktails that bring the party wherever you are. All their flavors are tasty, but you have to check out the big Blue Ball Berry Cherry Limeade. Yeah, you heard that right. Big blue balls, big flavor, big fun. Big balls just dropped this season. Grab a pair with Buzz Balls. Please drink responsibly. Available in spirit wine and malt ABV 15% buzz balls, LLC. Foreign chat. I am Justin Ferrier, and joining me, Rob Mahoney. Big Woz. Gentlemen, the Oklahoma City Thunder are your 2024, 2025 NBA champions. Can you believe it? Are you going to buy commemorative gear? I guess is the question, Rob.
- [00:59]
Rob Mahoney
I think I can believe it without buying the gear. But you know what I do believe now in 2025. Something I wasn't fully expecting to say. Defense wins championships yet again. We're back.
- [01:10]
Justin Ferrier
He's right. Was. How you feeling? They won the battle of the Plains.
- [01:14]
Big Woz
Ultimately, I mean, I think OKC deserves all the credit in the world for how they acquitted themselves this postseason. Like, these guys met every single challenge. All of the hard stuff that we talk about, being down in a series, winning big games on the road, you know, just being tested in clutch moments of said big games. Like, they've come through with a myriad of players, right? Like, obviously this Shay, who's their mvp, but Chet's had moments, J Dub had moments, Caruso had moments, Lou Dort had, like, the collective will of this team to get them through this postseason run. I'm just super impressed, particularly because these guys are so young and none of them have really accomplished much in the NBA in terms of postseason success. So they just deserve a lot of credit, man, for putting this playoff run together and meeting every single challenge.
- [02:16]
Rob Mahoney
It's a really cool run for a really cool Thunder team. Like 68 wins, a dominant defense, a seven gamer against the best player in the world, A statement against Ant and the Wolves.
- [02:26]
Big Woz
And now I thought you was talking about Halliburton. Wait, what?
- [02:31]
Rob Mahoney
Also a cool run in his own right in Pacers. And we'll. We'll get to them the ups and downs of that. But a gut check win for the Thunder in a Game seven in the finals, That's a hell of a thing under any circumstances at all. And I think for them to have the whole body of work they have, like, it is pretty unimpeachable what they've been able to put together.
- [02:48]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, I think we were expecting this one to be ugly because as we talked about on our last Podcast game Sevens of the NBA Finals tend to be in the mud, I think. So that was always going to happen to a certain extent. But the Thunder are digging games out of the mud practically this entire post isn't. So it's not surprising was that this game was a little dicier at times that you'd expect considering what happened to Halibur. And we're going to talk about him and his God, like his tragic injury, quite frankly, historic injury, which is tough to watch. But like the Thunder, they made it hard on the Thunder. But the Thunder, yet again, somehow found a way to just do a little bit. Enough in order to win this one.
- [03:27]
Big Woz
Yeah, I mean, by the time you're playing a team for the seventh time in a row, I think everybody kind of knows each other's tendencies. And you know that that fact alone makes it so that you're not getting off any of the fancier stuff that you have in your arsenal. You've used everything you got by this point, and it just becomes a test of wills. And I thought the way that Indy came out, man, they were ready for this Game seven. I'm just, look, the Thunder are the champs. They deserve all the praise. What I do, I am just a extremely impressed by the makeup. The mental makeup of this Pacers group is like, I tweeted it the other day, like, I'm going to be thinking about this team for the rest of my life, dude. Like the way these guys just out tough every single opponent this whole postseason. And it just doesn't feel like these guys should be in games, much less winning them. And, you know, getting pushing the Thunder, who everybody thought was going to, you know, dog walk them to the seventh game. That's how they came out in game seven. Like, these guys were ready for this. I'm like tip my hat off to them, the players, the coaches, staff, man, like, that's a whale of a team.
- [04:46]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know how you couldn't admire this group and, and everything that you. You just laid out was. And the way that like, even in this game, they just refused to die. They came up like a about a quarter short just because they didn't have the scoring. They didn't have the man.
- [04:58]
Big Woz
They just ran out of time.
- [04:59]
Rob Mahoney
They ran out of time. They did run out of time. Like it felt like a real thing as they were throwing out combinations of players who have barely played together all season because of Halliburton's absence from the lineup. The fact that they went into the second half with elite, a remarkable achievement under the circumstances, truly off an Andrew Nemhard now, like, trademarked step back from the left wing as, like, just become one of his shots. And there's so many guys on this team for whom, like, we have our Aaron Nesmith moments and our Andrew Nemhard moments and our Miles Turner moments, and certainly our Pascal Siakam and TJ McConnell. Like, every Pacer has acclimated themselves so wonderfully over the course of this run. Like, you, you do have to tip your hat and salute and give those guys every benefit of the doubt and every bit of grace for the way that they've played throughout this whole run, but especially here in the most difficult circumstances in Game seven.
- [05:50]
Justin Ferrier
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need. You could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Yeah, so they were up one at halftime. We got the TJ explosion in that third quarter. And then we got the hold onto your butts moment late in the game where Shay has five fouls. They're out of timeouts. They're in the bonus already. And it seemed like the Thunder were hanging on for dear life. Ben Matheran basically willed, by getting the free throw line at will, a comeback in that fourth quarter, but they had to do that because of Halberd. And we. We're talking around and we should probably hit it head on. Just absolutely heartbreaking to watch, just considering everything that's gone into this miraculous postseason run. He is just such a, like, a wellspring of joy and happiness, even when he's, like, trolling other opponents. Like, I got a little emotional, I'll be honest. When he started, when he first hit the floor, he was just like, he just had such a. He's crying so hard and hitting the floor. Like, that was tough to watch. Then when you see the replay and you could literally see his Achilles rupture, which is what we're assuming as we're recording this late on Sunday. We don't have official diagnosis yet, but that's kind of the widely presumed thing. It was like my stomach dropped.
- [07:21]
Big Woz
And.
- [07:21]
Justin Ferrier
And it's funny because, like, the Pacers went on and played really hard to finish that quarter. I got to the second quarter I was like, what just happened? Like, I couldn't lock in. I. I can't imagine doing that as on the team.
- [07:33]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it really felt like after. After he went down. I don't. I don't. It sounds like you had a similar experience. Just. I'm curious if you did two Ws. Like, I was just, like, in a daze watching this game.
- [07:43]
Big Woz
Same.
- [07:43]
Rob Mahoney
And it. It felt. It did feel like the Thunder kind of took a little bit to figure out what the terms of engagement were going to be with Haliburton out and, like, how to exactly attack certain things. And they had to the games on their own terms, but so did we. And I think that's. Look, there are many reasons this is a devastating entry to Tyrese Halliburton, most of all to the Pacers after the run. That they've had to not get a chance to, you know, defend that run with the fullest strength possible is a tragedy. It's a basketball tragedy in its own right. There's also something about, like, a moment like this, and one of the really special things about a Game seven is the way it is. Just, like, complete distilled presence. Right. Like, we're not thinking about the off season. Everything is so contained. Everything. The stakes are massive. The emotions are high. And you see all that spilling out from Tyrese Halliburton when he gets hurt, you know, when he's on the floor there. But the fact that all of that air just got let out from how pressure packed this game felt, I thought was really unfortunate. And, jp, you're right. It was an incredibly emotional scene watching him on the floor. I also thought it was incredibly emotional watching him in the tunnel after the game on his crutches, waiting for every Pacer as they came off the floor. Like, I almost don't even know what to say. Like, I don't know how you get a moment like this back or an occasion like this back. Like, we were just all kind of robbed of something. Tyrese, obviously, most of all.
- [09:01]
Big Woz
Yeah, obviously. Like, I'm watching these guys just, like, run around the court, and I'm. I'm also trying to put my mind in, like, Pascal Siakam's mind or, like, how do you even just hoop after this after, you know, your teammate, your leader, suffer such a devastating injury? But, like, all of those things you mentioned that make it so sad, it's just tied into, you know, why we watch his sports in the first place. Like, these guys are hyper competitive guys. Like, they really care. Halliburton is out there On a bad wheel. He's got a strained calf. There's no way that injury isn't directly related to why he ruptured his Achilles. Like, if it wasn't the NBA finals, he wouldn't be out there playing. And if you watch that game, this dude was going so freaking hard, you know, like the level of effort that this guy was putting forth on that bad wheel, you know, and inevitably that's what ends up causing the injury. But, you know, at the same time, I, like, I tip my cap to Halliburton for being out there and going ball, sort of literally putting his body on the line, man, to try to win a championship for his team. So, you know, it sucks. I, I, I would have, you know, I, I think we would have got an amazing finish if Halliburton gets to play that entire game. But, you know, at the same time, I salute the guy for even being out there in the first place. Like, it wouldn't have been, you know, he wouldn't, it wouldn't have been like, oh, he's got an excuse. Like, honestly, it reminds me of the KD situation in Golden State. Literally the exact same thing. The guy was nursing a sprained calf. He's dying to come back because he's a hyper competitive dude dying to come back for the finals and then ends up messing up his Achilles on that same, you know, leg. And so salute to Halliburton, man. He's going to come back. He's going to still be a great player when he comes back. It just sucks we didn't get to watch him finish this game.
- [10:57]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. And the unfortunate thing is this has been kind of a mini trend happening in the playoffs thus far. We saw it happen with Dame. We saw it happen with, with Jason Tatum. Jeff Stotts, who runs the incomparable in street clothes, who logs a lot of this injury data. He says that this is now the most Achilles tears, if this is indeed an Achilles tear. So we're just adding that caveat for now. This would be 8 on the season. The previous high was 5 in the 1415 season. And this is the type of thing where I wait for data and people like Jeff to earmark these sorts of things. So clearly this is happening league wide. And just as almost like an addendum to this overall conversation, like, this is something to take note of. Yes, Halliburton played through the injury, played what, three games after initially injuring his calf. And so he pushed through something, but clearly something is happening here and my PSA would just be stop Playing so many goddamn games. It's almost always the games in every conversation we have about the NBA. And you can't say if you're the league that we care about player safety and health and we want our best players playing at the optimal fitness and yet still run them out. 82 games and then a postseason. It isn't just like limiting the back to backs. That's not doing it right. We're seeing too many superstars get felled in the biggest moments and that's just going to hurt the bottom line, which is what you're after in the first place. So just as a, as a sidebar here, stop playing so many goddamn games, please.
- [12:18]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, there's just so many areas of life in which we're abiding by rules that were made 50 and 60 years ago and expecting them to govern what is happening in front of us today. Like the NBA game today is not what it was in 1965. Like, it's just not. And so expecting these guys to play that many games with this much movement, with this much dynamic action on both sides of the ball, I just don't think it's realistic anymore. And we. Look, the NBA will have a serious conversation about that as soon as there is a financial recompense to offset whatever it is they think they're losing by turn by trimming down the number of games on the schedule. Maybe expansion is that, maybe it's not. But like this is getting untenable. This is getting dangerous for so many guys and not just because it's happening in a game seven. In what's supposed to be a celebration of the league and what's supposed to be a celebration of the Pacers and where they're going and how bright Tyrese Halliburton's future is going to look. And you're right was like he's going to come back. He's young enough. We have every expectation that Tyrese Halliburton is going to be a healthy and effective superstar level player again. But now he's got a long way back because in part because of the rigors of the schedule that brought him here.
- [13:23]
Justin Ferrier
And I think it's also kind of dovetails with the Thunders overall perspective. If you look at Sam Presti's preseason like interviews, like he has this one big. You can ask him whatever question you want in the preseason. I think after the season that goes off an hours long. He talks at length about they built depth specifically to deal with the rigors of the new NBA. Part of that is Just the torque and the stress that is exerted on a player's body, especially in the second half of the season when the schedule is a little bit more compressed. And so the Thunder have built their team in large part to avoid situations like this. It's just unfortunate it happened on the opposite, opposite end, in order, in the biggest stakes and the biggest moments of the season. But I have to give the Pacers credit, like we were saying, Rob, like, they looked like the team that was able to withstand this more than the Thunder, because it took a half for the Thunder to really be themselves.
- [14:19]
Rob Mahoney
It really did that take them time to settle in. And I, again, I would just would have loved to see the alternate version of this game where both teams are relatively healthy and can actually go after each other. Because Tyrese was hidden out of the gate like this. This looked like it was going to be an incredibly fun back and forth matchup. And ultimately the Thunder were able to kind of rest control of it as they often do with their defense, by locking it down. I think Shay had a classic Game seven. And by that I mean it was hard and it wasn't always pretty. And it was effective in the same way that, like, Kobe in 2010 was effective in game seven. It's like, I don't. I really don't care about the shooting percentages. I care. Do you have what it takes to get down everything that's required to win a game like this? And Shea absolutely lived up to that moment. And I thought J Dub eventually found that moment, and I thought, Chet, in the second half, what he was able to do defensively, just completely locking down the paint, changed the course of this game. And it really, if we're talking about kind of what was able to finally rebuff all of the adrenaline and all of the force and all of the connectivity that was fueling the Pacers to that point. I think a lot of it comes down to the Thunder defense and just everything that they were able to take away.
- [15:25]
Big Woz
Yeah, that third quarter where they forced, I think about like, seven turnovers, it might have even been more eight turnovers in that one quarter. Like, you just saw the full culmination of them just being like, look, their best ball handler mover is out. We can ratchet up the pressure and not deal with some of the consequences that come with being hyper aggressive that way. Um, and they just took advantage, man. And then, you know, they got some shots to fall, which always matters. But, yeah, that's. That's to me, you know, when I think about this Particular Pacers team, excuse me, this particular Thunder team. It is going to be the defense. It is going to be, you know, a group of guys deciding that they're all going to give a shit about doing stuff that isn't. Doesn't get you cool points, you know, doesn't make Sports center highlights. Like, they're not going to show a bunch of. They're not going to make a mixtape for you on YouTube or Twitter video where you're making perfect rotations, you know what I mean? That's not how that goes. But a group of young guys establishing themselves in this league and collectively deciding that, yo, we're going to make our name, we're going to make our bones on the defensive side of the ball. Hat tip to the coach, hat tip to the players. Sam Presti, for identifying the kind of guys who will come in and give ultimate buy in to that structure of, you know, team building and being like, yo, this is what we hang our hat on. Like, I got a lot of respect for these guys and especially. Cause again, I think it's a little bit easier when you're like, you know, a sort of seven seconds or less Suns type of team. Yeah, we fly up and down. It's easy to talk people into that. Everybody gets to shoot, everybody gets to look cool, you know, like. But everybody being, you know, dug in, sacrificing themselves on defense so that you can have just a lockdown unit, you know, big shout outs to them. That's to me, aside from Shay being Shay. And I thought, you know, he was excellent today. Some of the shots didn't fall, but his, he just controlled this game so beautifully, you know, 12 assists, one turnover. He was just excellent on that end. But I am going to think about just a group of young guys, you know, specifically young guys to just come in and be like, our identity is going to be defense. I admire that.
- [17:45]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, some of those Lou Dort moonball threes got a little dicey at times, especially when they were.
- [17:53]
Rob Mahoney
He made that one from damn near half court though.
- [17:56]
Justin Ferrier
I know. And there was the other seven or so didn't look as good. So in total, Indy turned it over 23 times and the Thunder scored 32 points off of that. They ultimately ended up with 14 steals. And I think the key stat in this game, Rob Dort, Caruso, Wallace, your three, Steelsman, I'll head three apiece. Like that is what you want. Maybe the offense comes and goes with those guys, but like, that is the heart of this team because as we've seen Time and time again, the defense leads the offense totally.
- [18:25]
Rob Mahoney
And you could see as we're alluding to kind of the Thunder playing Thunder basketball as it has traveled all season, as they certainly have at home all season, and as has mostly held up in these playoffs. I think there were also the sort of trickle down effects of TJ McConnell playing more minutes, Andrew Nemhardt having the ball more, a bunch of like, you know, bigs catching the ball in positions that they don't normally do. And then you see all the turnovers as sort of results from all of those things. And like all of that stuff cascading is just way too much to give the Thunder. Like, it's just way too much momentum. It's way too much offense. Like they're able to take every one of those turnovers and make absolute hay of it. And I thought Casen Wallace is another guy who is kind of, to be honest, like, struggled to find his place in this series. But you take Halliburton out of it and the way that changes the actions that the Pacers can run now all of a sudden, like you're just asking Casey Wallace, like, how T.J. mcConnell full court and now, now he's trapping, he's poking the ball loose. You can see him become more and more effective as the Pacers sort of change shape. And so of course, any team that loses Tyrese Halliburton is going to be worse for it. But in particular, trying to solve this defense without your best playmaker is just kind of a fool's errand on a certain level.
- [19:32]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, it's one thing to be like Casen Wallace, create offense off of like a role. It's another thing to be like, we just got to steal, run a 40 yard dash and take an outlet pass from Isaiah Hartenstein, who was, by the way, pretty awesome in his game in his own right. But we should talk about Shay because it did feel like he took off in that third quarter as well. And part of it maybe Rob was just like seeing some light finally. He was like, the distribution was awesome. We should mention the 12 assists was a career playoff high. I think his career high overall is 14. And so he was getting it done. He has no space in this game whatsoever. We've talked at length about how Nemar is basically just living inside of his body at this point like a parasite. But I thought he was particularly crafty working in tight spaces, especially hitting his big man off a roll. Hartenstein and Chet almost, with like three guys within like a hair of him. Just felt like he was hitting the pocket passes. He was. He was just making the most of the few opportunities that Indy was given.
- [20:36]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, he just showed why he has become one of the singular players in the league. Like a one of one creator that is unlike anybody else out there because he can make the most of those like very slim spatial opportunities. And I think, you know, you're right that the third quarter is where things kind of picked up for the Thunder collectively as an offense because of Shays playmaking. But he was also kind of the only thing holding it together in the first half when J Dub, if we're being totally honest, was kind of invisible, at least on that end of the floor.
- [21:02]
Justin Ferrier
It's seven assists just in the first half alone.
- [21:04]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, like all of that was kind of coming together in a way that was based off of the very simple and very direct but also kind of unstoppable premise of put the ball in Shay's hands and good things tend to happen. Like if that is where you can operate on offense and everything else is where you can operate on defense, you can live and die and come and go with the rest of the variables on the floor. The three point shooting, some of J Dub's more explosive games versus some of his more muted games, some of Chet's more dominant games versus some of his kind of more pedestrian games. But they got enough of those things swinging in their favor in such huge ways and such huge moments that they were just able to seize control, especially in that third quarter.
- [21:42]
Big Woz
I just love how deliberate he was. Like, yeah, he got up like 28 shots or whatever it was. But I think that's what it takes to get the Pacers defense to be like, look like we rather other people shoot the ball than Shay, Gilgis, Alexander and you know, he's just putting the defense in compromising spots. Nemar guards this guy as well as anybody we've seen in the NBA, but he still found ways to create opportunities for himself and his teammates. And yeah, man, like this is what you're supposed to do when you're the superstar, when you're the mvp, it's like put the ball in his hands and make him make it happen. It wasn't going to be these other guys making it happen in Game 7. That just wasn't going to. That just was never going to be the case. And so I'm proud of him. I'm happy for him that he came out and showed who he was, man. Like this guy is. He's one of our best players. He's still A young guy, he's got a lot of. He's going to do a lot more in the league. And this is just. This is just a dope coming out for him.
- [22:42]
Justin Ferrier
Does it put too fine a point on it to suggest that the third quarter the Thunder finally adapted to not having Halliburton out there? Because you wonder if the turnovers were a product of being a little bit looser with the ball. Obviously the Thunder ratcheted up a bit, but it almost felt like in the first half also, the Thunder's game plan offensively might have been to attack Halliburton a little bit more like, explicitly than they had in previous games. And I almost wonder if a young team all of a sudden, like, you have to change things on the fly. It took like a full halftime in order to adjust.
- [23:11]
Rob Mahoney
I think that was definitely an element. I mean, again, the. The pace of the game and the rhythm of the game are so different. And some of that starts with what Oklahoma City is doing defensively. Some of it, as you're alluding to Justin, is like, who are you attacking? What are the. What are the actions you had kind of like written on the back of the card and you were ready to go to at every opportunity out of every timeout? I think a lot of that stuff probably gets changed up. A lot of it gets thrown out the window. You saw. I thought it was really interesting that the Thunder started running in particular in the second half. Like a lot more very indie ghost screen kind of action with J Dub. Sort of like coming to feign a screen and then just brushing by for Shay. Just get that like, moment of hesitation, the moment of miscommunication, and then someone like SGA is just going to eat every time you give him that sort of opportunity.
- [23:56]
Big Woz
Yeah, I love Matheran as a. As a ball handler sometimes. McConnell, obviously, you know, he's got a decent handle, but like OKC puts out a bunch of piranhas, man, like, they're going to make your life miserable if you're not a Halliburton level handler pacer. Like, it's. It's going to be miserable. And you know, by the time the third quarter came, some somebody's like lazy throwing it over, like jump passes, that kind of thing. It just wasn't working as well. And again, when OKC just knows they can kind of pin their ears back and just rush you, it's just a different animal. Like, Halliburton can make you pay for being over aggressive. Like, his understanding of angles and just his vision of the Court, like, his vision will make it so that if you're being too aggressive, he's going to find the guy that you're cheating off of. Like, these McConnell and. And Nemhard and Mathurin aren't those level of sort of court vision guys. And so, yeah, man, they did the right thing by pressuring up on those guys and sort of breaking the dam.
- [25:08]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, it really was Matheran having his moment in the fourth, TJ having his moment in the third, but other than that, I can't really remember, like, outside of a rare, like, one play of some of these other guys, including the Thunder taker, who we thought Pascal Siakam was going to pop in this game, at least I thought, uh, I wonder, Rob, if just like, having a little bit more attention on him and knowing that he would have to be the guy to probably power them through this was just a little bit enough, especially when the Thunder were ratcheting up the pressure, as we mentioned.
- [25:36]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it's not what he's best suited for. I. I did think it was telling, though. Like, in the first half, in particular, the minutes where Pascal was on the floor were the minutes where the Pacers did feel most like themselves, even without Halliburton, where they were kind of holding it together. And you could see when he went to the bench, it's like, starting to slip away, the turnover start piling up. They start just getting out of sorts. And so he was kind of holding them together for a minute alongside TJ and Nemhard and those guys. And, I mean, honestly, it was a really collective effort. I almost don't mean to single out anyone in particular, but he just wasn't able to have the sort of, like, elevating star in this moment sort of performance. But that's not Pascal Siakam. Like, he is the Swiss Army Knife. He is someone who's going to give you a little bit of everything, but he's not going to give you 27 shots. Like, Shay will. Like, that's not his game. It's not how he wants to play. Honestly, even if he had, I don't think it would have been particularly beneficial to the Pacers. Like, he's better suited playing this style. They just didn't have the overwhelming offensive element that they normally do, which is Halliburton's playmaking, feeding all of these other weapons on the floor, Pascal included.
- [26:39]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, it just felt like a lot of the magic was that we've seen from some of the ancillary guys, just like they ran out of pixie dust here. Toppin in particular, we talked at length about like all of a sudden he seemed like one of the Bash Bros coming off the bench. But like, good God, he had probably his worst games at the finals at the worst time.
- [26:57]
Big Woz
Yeah. And. But we can't be surprised by that. Right. When the engine gets taken out, they have to find different ways of being than they've been playing this entire postseason run. Like it's all connected to me. Right. Like the idea that a guy goes down and everybody just collectively starts taking different pieces of his job. It doesn't really work like that when your role has been so defined for this entire run. So you know, I guess people needed to step up, as Bill would say. But like I can't begrudged, you know, Obi Toppin for not coming out and having his best game. Like it's game seven. The Thunder defense is so insanely locked in and your best setup guy, your best pace guy is not out there. And Toppin in the best of days is not some initiator creator. He's finishing plays off. Right. And so you know, him not being able to rise to the level. I don't, I don't begrudge him that.
- [28:03]
Rob Mahoney
Well, not just your best, best like setup guy too, or your best pace guy, but your get out of jail free card. Like all of those traps and those passes over the top that we're talking about that started getting picked off, guess where they go. They go to Obi Toppin for dunks. Like that's, that's the natural outlet point. And so having losing the mechanism to get out of those dicey situations, I think just killed the flow of the Pacers offense.
- [28:25]
Big Woz
And Halliburton had made I guess like three threes before he left the game. He was expanding and stretching that Thunder defense out, which like the further they gotta play out on the court, the more space these other guys have. And now you don't have that pull up 28 footer, you know, option available to you. So of course the court becomes way more constricted and yeah, it's gonna be tough for these other guys to cook, man. Like I, it's. Is this hard for me to find reasons to be disappointed in a Pacers effort, man, like these guys gave it everything.
- [29:02]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, I mean Halliburton was pulling up from like 30ft out and hitting him like Steph in the first, what, five minutes of that game, hitting three out of four of those. And you're right, we saw in, in game six how much just him being Able to stretch and orchestrate from far out. Just added to everybody else's offensive game. We should mention just like on the Thunder side of this, if we're talking role players, thought Dort late was just completely harassing the hell out of guys. There's one series where he had two steals and then he, he forced the out of bounds play on tj. I thought Hartenstein played an awesome overall game in this one. Like finishing like physically with touch late or early. Excuse me. But just like his ability to orchestrate at his size and like just the amount of like wood that he lays defensively but still be able to hit guys off of short rolls. And like, I think he had four assists in this game. He was awesome in the middle. Like there was one conduit pass where like he got in the middle and he kicks it out for a three. I thought he was awesome. And then Chet Lee hit five blocks in this game. Once again, it took him until the fourth quarter to finally show up, unfortunately for the most part. But he did ultimately show up. So I think fault him too much.
- [30:13]
Rob Mahoney
I think the Hardenstein part of that in particular, like one of the toughest questions for any organization, especially one where you're kind of a young, up and coming team, is when do you really push forward? When do you start making the big swings in free agency? When do you start trading the guys that you've developed and like for other players? When do you start trading draft picks? When do you start investing in that stuff? I don't even know that the Thunder have like fully, fully done that. They still have a lot to work with, but the closest that they've come was timing it just right, which was this past summer, getting Isaiah Hardenstein in free agency, trading Josh Giddy for Alex Caruso. Two guys who they don't get to this point without the two of them, and they certainly don't win in the finals without the two of them, just proved absolutely instrumental. And I think that they were able to time that perfectly for a bunch of different reasons. The simplest one is like Shay became Shay and then all of a sudden all of your other needs become a little bit more moot. You don't need as much creation as maybe you did when you traded for Shay in the first place. J Dub coming into his own as an all around player was clearly a huge part of that too. And then this sort of collective, good, hardworking defense evolved into something historic. And this, this is one of those areas where like, I'm watching this title happen right in front of Us. Every time this happens, you see the same pattern, which is every other team looks at Nikola Jokic winning a title and they're like, where do we get our playmaking big? You know, they watch Steph win a title and like, how do we mimic this sort of motion in our offense? Like, I don't know how you get a bunch of 24 and 25 and 26 year olds to play defense like this. Like, I don't know how to do it. I don't know if it can be done. But clearly the Thunder were able to pull it off. And so, like, I don't know what, to what extent, like a copycat NBA is going to be able to do anything with this Thunder.
- [31:53]
Big Woz
Yeah, I don't know if it'll be a copycat NBA, but I think teams need to focus on. Yeah, this is, this is the team with the target on his back now. Right. Maybe they don't try to emulate the style of team that the Thunder are, but they're like, all right, this is how we should try to maybe go about beating these guys and getting, you know, and gearing basically their player acquisition program around. All right, does this make us better suited to beating the Thunder? And I think that's another thing that's cool about the Thunder winning this championship is that they're going to have to defend it next year as the undisputed big dog in the league. You know, everybody, they gonna get all the newspaper clippings and magazine write ups and sports center features, and they're gonna get all of that all summer. The rest of the NBA is gonna have to watch them get all of this praise and, and you know, people are now going to be like, all right, these are the guys we got to take down now. And it's going to be cool to see them respond to that new role of being the basically the hunted for the first time for this group.
- [33:01]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. We've talked at length about the depth of these two teams and the importance of depth. Pretty much from the start of the season, it was like earmarked that like, this might be a thing. And it ended up two of the deepest teams in the league ended up getting to the finals together. They both arrived at it in different ways. Ways. The Pacers made a very considered and quick decision to just build guys around Tyrese Halliburton, which is why they have so much flow and more ball handling. And at times we wondered where that would come from with the Thunder. The Thunder definitely built around Shea, but I think you would argue that A lot of their role players also fit an archetype of what every team in the league is looking for. Those wing defender, size type players who have a little bit more to them that they could build over time. And so you're seeing that right now for the Thunder Bear dividends, like, they won the title. This is as good as it gets. But throughout the game, I was thinking to myself, like, this is the start of something. And so you're right, Rob, because like, yes, they have what every team is after, but it's also going to hopefully, you would assume, just get better over time because guys like Casen Wallace, even like Caruso having another year in this system could add a little bit more offensively. Because I was out there watching this game tonight and it's a lot of, like, when Chet isn't hitting, it's a lot of Shay Jdub creation and a lot of guys who are pretty narrow. Like Dord is Moonball threeing. Like Caruso, a super intelligent player who almost finished a lob dunk in this one, like a tip dunk. That would have been the best play in the fucking game. But like, Chet is, you know, you have to limit him to, like, cuts in the baseline and like, maybe stretching out the three or Hartenstein is good passing, but, you know, obviously is a big man. And so, like, they're going to add offensive skills on top of this. So it's almost like this growing organism where it's like, oh, like this is Gremlins one. Like, let's see in Gremlins three, two to three years from now where these motherfuckers are just like, just have knives on their hands and they're just like, I don't know, they look like Goro from Mortal Kombat.
- [34:55]
Rob Mahoney
Well, let me tell you, Gremlins 2 is already fucking batshit. So I'm ready for the Gremlins 2 version of the Thunder in which Kacen Wallace becomes pure electricity over the course of that movie. And I totally hear you, like, he is in case. And Wallace is a natural evolution point in terms of right now, a very confined role player who over time will probably handle the ball a little bit more, will probably start to push a little bit more. I fully expect that from Chet, too. I think right now, as you're alluding to Justin, like, it's more cuts, it's more spot up. You're not asking him to create a lot. I think it's fully within his skill set to eventually get to that point. But the stakes were pretty high this season and now you're, you're, they're going to be high again next season. The title defense is going to be incredibly challenging in its own right, but you also know you can get there. Like, you know for a fact that this team is good enough. And with that comes the freedom to do different kinds of experimentation. And we saw plenty of experimentation with lineups, with roles, with all kinds of stuff with, with the Thunder and their injuries over the course of this year. But I think developmentally, watching a guy like Chet grow into a different sort of offensive player is going to be really exciting. Figuring out like, like, what happens if Nikola topic is good? Like, what happens if he comes in and he's like a really good rookie all of a sudden? I, I, they're just a team with an embarrassment of riches in terms of their development, in terms of their present tense. Like, that was something that I think crystallized for me. Watching Chet have the defensive impact that he did in that second half which you mentioned, the five blocks. Justin, apparently a game seven NBA finals record. No one has ever done that before in a Game 7 of the NBA Finals. That was not a flash of defensive potential. It was a showcase of who he is at this exact second and how he can change the course of a game with his defense. Now we're going to see how that, how that kind of flips to the other side of the ball. And will chat ever get to the point where he is someone who is expanding what a team can do offensively or, or is he going to be very comfortably an all NBA level defender who also does some good stuff on offense?
- [36:51]
Big Woz
Yeah, yeah. Everything you guys said, I thinking the same things in terms of their offense is going to become way more sophisticated over time. Right. Producer Zay before the meeting was like, man, it was a lot of just Shay just pounding the hell out of the ball. And to be honest, that was their best option for who this group is right now. But they have so much foundationally to build on top of in terms of Chet Shay and J Dub figuring out how to better play off of one another and leverage each other's strengths to make their collective job, their individual jobs, easier. I think the only thing not to pour cold water or anything like that, but like, you know, it's like cool being Kayson Wallace for the first championship, but then people start getting in your ear like, yo, you know if you was on another team, you have a bigger role, right?
- [37:47]
Justin Ferrier
Ziza Moore.
- [37:48]
Big Woz
Yes. You know, you could be getting like this, right? You know, like the pecking order, like they limiting you. Right? Like, you know, like. And I'm not saying Case and Wallace individual. I'm just saying, like, the Kumbaya stuff generally doesn't always last forever. Again, these guys are hyper competitive people, you know, like, they want to challenge themselves. They want to see themselves as, like, upping their stature and status within the game, within the culture. And so that's the only thing. Look, it's early as one championship we're.
- [38:20]
Justin Ferrier
Not talking about never happened in OKC before. You're right. Yeah.
- [38:23]
Big Woz
Listen. You know what I mean? And so that's the only thing about, like, oh, they got all this depth. Like, yeah, that's a lot of guys to keep happy.
- [38:31]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [38:32]
Big Woz
You know, especially after you get the championship. Like, I'm already a champion. I could take this championship DNA somewhere else and be the man. And, you know, like, that stuff becomes very challenging to deal with. Obviously, it's a rich person's problem to be like, oh, how do I deal with having all these great, talented players?
- [38:50]
Rob Mahoney
What do you do?
- [38:51]
Big Woz
You know? But it's definitely something to think about.
- [38:54]
Justin Ferrier
You're right. The shuffling of the lineups, being able to take a guy out and start him another game, like, that stuff is tough, especially over time.
- [39:02]
Big Woz
Ultimately, other guys getting more girls than you at the club, it's like, come on, man, it's tough.
- [39:08]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. Chet Steez, Caruso just getting after it. He's like, this fucking guy. I gotta say, that watching chet chase around T.J. mcConnell reminded me of, like, Rocky chasing after the chicken at times. And, like, there were times where TJ got him. But I have to give Chat credit, man. Just watching him, just his mobility and athleticism, just still be able to stand tall and get some of those blocks. Like, we keep saying it, even though that Chat hasn't really had a good finals.
- [39:38]
Big Woz
Like.
- [39:38]
Justin Ferrier
Like five shots probably in total over the past couple of games. But, like, there's something there.
- [39:44]
Big Woz
So much there.
- [39:45]
Justin Ferrier
There's so much there.
- [39:46]
Rob Mahoney
And the proportions there, as you're mentioning, Justin, are so unique. Like, a guy who's that lanky can switch like that. Like in the post game, when he was being interviewed by Lisa Salters and literally had to, like, crouch to have a conversation with her. Just kind of, like, really laid bare the dimensions that we're talking about with this human being. Like, you see him next to other centers, you see him next to other NBA players, it's like, yeah, that's a long, athletic player, but he's something really different. He's something really unique. Even within the context of NBA history. And yes, the victor Wembanyama castle a long shadow. And I'm sure those guys are going to be dueling for a long time, but there's a lot here for the Thunder to work with and a lot of flexibility in terms of tapping into different strategies, different tactics, different lineups like we're going to see over the course of the next couple years. Does he need an Isaiah Hartenstein with him on a recurring basis or is he. Or is he going to be a full time NBA 5? I don't know. But right now he's a full time NBA champion. Like he just made it here on his terms, as did the rest of these guys.
- [40:41]
Justin Ferrier
Yep. So OKC ends up being the youngest title winner since the 77 Portland Trailblazers. And let me tell you, always back to Portland. Yeah, there are hats with 77 on them. There's like, things are 77% off. Like people, if this is the only title that they get, OKC will remember this until like all those people die. So that's one note also, we should put a final peg in this one. Three teams, four instances previously of 68 wins plus a title, two Bulls teams in 96 and 97, Lakers in 72, Sixers in 67, and now the Oklahoma City Thunder. And the first year of what could be a pretty dominant run here. And so I don't know, we've been talking about it for a while and we kind of expected this at a certain point, but like, this is pretty fucking historic. And so I have to wonder, like, could we be talking about like regular season wins, records, like what's on the table here at this point?
- [41:40]
Rob Mahoney
I think everything's on the table. Like this could be this, as we've alluded to, the start of something really special and historic and lasting. This feels like, you know, the warriors in 2015, I'm not saying they're going to have exactly that sort of dynastic run. And one thing we need to to contextualize here is it's just really fucking hard to repeat now with the way that the NBA is set up. And you're seeing this parody for a reason. And we've seen just how quickly things can change with one calf strain and one then one Achilles injury that results. But they have all of that set up for them. They have a financial outlook that is as accommodating as one could possibly be in today's NBA. And they have a superstar who is doing more earlier than basically in anyone in his class, certainly, and more than in many players in NBA history like since the merger. Guys who have won the title and the MVP before they turn 27. Very, very small list. LeBron didn't do it. Michael Jordan didn't do it. If you'll allow me one more Blazer comparison, Justin, here's the list. Bill Walton, number one with a bullet on that list. Tim Duncan, Steph Giannis, and now Shay. Like quite a launchpad for whatever it is that he is going to become and whatever it is that the Thunder are going to become.
- [42:54]
Justin Ferrier
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Big Woz
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Rob Mahoney
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- [44:45]
Big Woz
Yeah, it's all on the table, definitely. I mean, again, this is already a high effort group. Maybe they, you know, they spend their summer in freaking Turks and Caicos and Mallorca and get fat. I just have a hard time believing that happens. I see them coming out and wanting to kill people again next year and having an absolutely amazing regular season and just be ready to take on all challenges again. That's the fun thing about sports, right? As much as I hated the Patriots and didn't really care for the Duncan spurs and some of the other dynasties that we've had, that's half the fun is seeing if anybody could challenge these guys and actually beat them. And so the Thunder trying to make themselves into that type of team that the rest of the sport measures themselves against, that's going to be really exciting to watch as well.
- [45:43]
Justin Ferrier
So on that note, we should talk about the guy who built this team. One Sam Presti finally gets his one ring wise. Did this make you want to run out and buy some like just clear frame glasses and just make that your new look?
- [45:56]
Big Woz
No, but I did maybe wanna check out some hip hop jazz. I don't know if you guys saw Pablo's special. This dude dropped a freaking jazz rap album in college, which I thought was just fascinating. Um, yeah, I've said it before. I was a, I wasn't like a skeptic like, oh, is Presti good at his job? But I thought sometimes in the media it would get a little ridiculous about how great this freaking Sam Presti is. I'm completely on the opposite side of that. I think this guy is just incredible at what he does. Um, terms of his ability to see a vision, to have a vision that's bigger than one individual thing. It's all of a piece, right? All the kind of guys, the mental makeup, the kind of team that he builds organizationally, the culture they're trying to foster, it's all of a greater thing, which I think is really hard to do in perspective professional sports, especially in this day and age, you know, with soft ass zoomers and you know, all of the, all of the guff they get on social media and like, bro, it is tough to achieve this. And the way he's gone about building this team, like he deserves our ultimate respect and praise for it. Like, he's legitimately an incredible executive, man.
- [47:18]
Rob Mahoney
There are a ton of people in the NBA who can tell you that guy's gonna be good. That guy's not gonna be good. That guy is an actual good shooter. That guy's not an actual good shooter. This guy can guard. That guy can't guard. Scouting is a, obviously more art than science, but there are a lot of people who are very Good at it. The list of people who actually truly see and understand the connectivity of things in the way you're talking about was is not a very long list. And it's a reason why you'll see some executives, a very, very small group of executives, be very successful over and over and over through adaptive philosophy. It's not just we play this one way or I only scout this or recruit this one kind of player or I only get these certain kinds of guys. Yeah, like lots of general managers have a type that does happen sometimes. But the reason why Sam Preci is successful is not so different from the reason Rick Carlisle is successful. Like immaculately prepared people who understand how to move and adjust and bob and weave with whatever is in front of them, opportunity wise. Right, like this is where we are in the draft. Here are the range of players available. Not just like who is going to be good, not just best talent, not just best player, but like what is the talent that makes a cogent kind of sense for Thunder basketball? What is the kind of person who is going to defend the way that we uniquely ask people to defend when they are 22 and 23 years old? That's like a bigger picture mindset that I think the Thunder have fucking nailed. Not just this year, not just last year, but for years and years and years now. It is a comprehensive, cohesive thing there. It's a reason why is why, like I do drink the Sam Presti Kool Aid a little bit. Like if. If you're gonna believe in somebody, believe in somebody who has a vision for something. And I think Sam Presti has always had a vision for what he wants the Thunder to be. And it's proven out time and again to be a quite successful vision.
- [49:02]
Justin Ferrier
I think a lot of people in our business see themselves in Chris Paul because they are type A. And the way that he is able to manipulate things but often like hold it too tightly, I think speaks to a lot of people that we know. It speaks to me first and foremost. But also there are a lot of people I think like me who appreciate the almost logistics porn that happens with the Thunder. The way that things interconnect the basketball side with the interpersonal stuff with like the cap management stuff, it all kind of like comes together. And Presti, I think is the shining example of like building that out and also kind of instituting across the organization so there really is, top down, just like a clear vision. Everyone on the same page that like me as someone who is like constantly tracking the trends and how all of These things overlap and come to a head in order to build a championship winning team. It just like, it's just so hard to do so many of these separate things. To do all of them and get them to coalesce is like, it's, it's kind of a miracle that it happens every year. And so Presti deserves all the respect in the world. He's clearly the best in the business at that. And I mean this, this is why they're on the precipice here, right? It's because of Presti.
- [50:22]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, those miracles are made because players like Shay, like not randomly, they become the MVP through hard work, through talent, through like a natural and singular focus, like become that sort of player. Those miracles are also made because you signed Aaron Wiggins to a below market contract at a time where everyone should have been looking at Aaron Wiggins and being like, I would love to have that guy. It's locking up Lou Dort into a long term deal when no one believed in his shot except the Thunder apparently. And they believe that if they stuck with it and Lou stuck with it, that he over time would net out as a good shooter. And moon balls be damned, he has like, percentage wise, he has become that sort of shooter and has always been that kind of defender. And so it's, it really is the sort of like, yeah, top down approach in which you're, you're getting all of the big picture things right, but you are getting those logistical details. You are nailing down not just like, let's grade this transaction, but how do all these transactions fit together on a sheet in a way that makes actual lasting financial sense?
- [51:19]
Justin Ferrier
Having said that, though, there's also something to be said about a team that fucking takes the table, flips it over and just gives everyone the bird. And that's basically what the Pacers did straight up. So I have to give them a salute because this postseason has been absolutely magical. Watching every single round them subvert expectations. Basically throughout the finals, I feel like every two games we were shocked by the fact that they were still having this in them. This is one for the ages. The fact that like I'm still, my head is spinning trying to grasp where we ended up with this team. And so I just have to give one last big old salute to this team. Because we spend an entire season trying to convince ourselves that we know what will happen, right? The NBA more than most leagues, kind of Mets out as the regular season predicts. But the fact that the Pacers completely blew that up is exactly why you Watch sports, right? Like we watch all those games for something thrilling, unpredictable, happening. And the Pacers did that unlike anything I think I've ever seen covering basketball in almost two decks. Decades.
- [52:23]
Rob Mahoney
It's just a real shame you weren't listening to podcaster Rob Mahoney on a podcast in, like, January. You know, like, you could have been ahead of this stuff.
- [52:30]
Big Woz
But I don't know, the championship pie.
- [52:33]
Justin Ferrier
The worst thing is, like, we cheated them out of the way, if anything.
- [52:36]
Big Woz
Yeah, right, we cheated them out of the championship pie for that episode. But yeah, and you know, Halliburton's not gonna play next year, but, like, from what I've seen this postseason, man, if any team could weather that storm and still put out a more than respectable basketball product, I think it's the Pacers. I think they could still be a good team next year. I don't think they'll make another Finals run without Halliburton. He's their best player. However, I think they could be just fine in the regular season. They've got a distinct style of play. They could try to replicate some of it. They're not going to duplicate what Halliburton brings, but yeah, this run, the moments they delivered from round one, two, three, and in the Finals, like, I'm talking about some of the most improbable, crazy, just absolutely fun NBA playoff moments of my life in one freaking solitary postseason, dude. Like, you know, the, the, the craziness with the Knicks game, one of this Finals delivering a freaking buzzer beater like the. Against Giannis, like, it was just crazy, man. And yeah, just gained a shit ton of respect. Like, you know, I thought, like, we all knew OKC was really talented. Everybody thought they had a decent enough chance to win the championship, you know, favorite in the west, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, they kind of fulfilled their promise that everybody expected of them. You can't say that about the Pacers. Like, nobody saw this coming. Like a straight up Finals run. Incredible game seven against a 68 win team. And even then, it's like your best player has to go down for you to get like, like actually beat me, you know, like, bro hat tip to this crew.
- [54:24]
Rob Mahoney
I thought it was, you know, obviously anytime there's a huge injury in the NBA, you'll see other players come out of the woodwork, you know, with shock, with condolences, with prayers up. All those things I did think, you know, like, maybe, maybe this is me seeing a signal in the noise a little bit. But, like, I thought it was very telling that Some of the first guys out were the Knicks. It was like Kat and Josh Hart and Jalen Brunson. It's like, I think there is an admiration for Tyrese Halliburton and certainly an admiration for this Pacers team. Like, how do you play against Aaron Neesmith and not be like, that guy fucking has got something, you know, like, he's got a kind of juice that we want all professional athletes to have. Not just NBA players, not just role players, anybody in any line of professional athleticism. Like, you want that level of fight in them. That's who the Pacers are. It's who they've become. And this was a team that for years and years was not athletic, was not. Was more of a finesse outfit, did not have these kinds of dogs. And now they have found, like a perfect meshing of all of those things, of skill, of motion, of fluidity, of all of that force, of all of that enthusiasm, of all of that buy in. Like, you know, everything that we said about the Thunder defense and getting those guys to play that way, you're right. Was that like the seven seconds or left Suns is. Is a pretty easy sell. The Golden State warriors kind of motion style offense is not necessarily an easy sell.
- [55:45]
Big Woz
We've.
- [55:45]
Rob Mahoney
We've seen lots of players come to motion systems and they just like, flunk out because they don't really know what it takes to do that. You cannot say that about Indian. Any Indiana Pacer, like, those guys will cut and move with no intention of ever getting the ball because they see what their role in it is supposed to be. And we're going to see how that evolves without Tyrese Halliburton, probably for all of next season if it does turn out to be the Achilles. And with that, it sucks. Like, the Pacers are going to be on the board in a different kind of way than a reigning Eastern Conference champion would be. And we should talk about sort of the greater instability in the east, which is getting more and more rickety by the second, it seems. But, you know, there were also calls earlier in these playoffs for Andrew Nemhard, like, how cool would it be if he was running an offense? Like, could he be a lead point guard? We're about to find out. And he's going to have the sort of developmental chances and opportunities that he would never have playing alongside Tyrese Halliburton full time. And so we're going to see Ben Matheran, and you got to try to.
- [56:41]
Big Woz
Get paid next season.
- [56:42]
Rob Mahoney
Well, he's. He is certainly going to try and we have seen the part of him that awakens when he feels he is needed. And clearly he's going to be needed a lot for the foreseeable future in terms of that scoring. And there's lots of guys with the Pacers who are in those circumstances and I can't wait to see what they've got next season without Tyrese in the mix.
- [57:00]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, it's a bummer for a variety of reasons. First and foremost because of Halliburton and where he is in his career and where he was expecting to go next season. This was supposed to be the start of something and we expected the Pacers to walk into next season and be the presumptive favorites in the East. They earned that right. And it seemed like they were going to be on a run similar to, in some ways to the Thunder. It will be a different type of follow up for them. I guess. If anything it will be a stress test for this system that Carlisle has built to see if Nemhardt and all these other guys can plug the hole until Halburn, let's cross our fingers, can get back later in the season, maybe in the playoffs and we'll see from there. But I'll also have to see what happens with Miles Turners. He's a free agent. Will he look elsewhere now? Because next season might be a little bit more mixed. We'll see about that. But the Pacers have something and we didn't expect that minus Rob as recently as two months ago when we started this journey in the postseason. So it's a miracle. I'll say it again, just like it's a fucking miracle where we ended up here.
- [58:00]
Rob Mahoney
Can I circle back to two elements of the Thunder celebration? I would like to ask you guys about one. Is Shea Gilgis Alexander the first NBA champion to ever do heart hands from the podium? Is that an NBA first?
- [58:16]
Big Woz
Definitely.
- [58:17]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. You know, with shoes around his neck.
- [58:20]
Rob Mahoney
I like the guys that are so.
- [58:22]
Justin Ferrier
Crafty with the branding.
- [58:23]
Rob Mahoney
I kind of like that. I got, I gotta be honest, it worked for me.
- [58:26]
Big Woz
Get your money. Did you guys see this? Rachel Nichols tweeted. Plenty of celebrating and cheering going on in the Thunder locker room. But if you're looking for a crazy champagne soaked celebration, well, it hasn't happened so far. Quote, they're not old enough to drink. Sam Presti just told me.
- [58:47]
Rob Mahoney
Me, I mean they are literally but emoji.
- [58:51]
Justin Ferrier
You think they're going to Brahms and getting some milkshakes instead and going to bed at like 10 o' clock.
- [58:55]
Big Woz
The idea that these days we're gonna go get frozen yogurts and not go to Miami or Vegas to celebrate. Like that just pisses me off as a notion, but whatever. What do I know? I'm a washed up, you know, damn near 40 year old.
- [59:09]
Rob Mahoney
I think they're just doing a bit, you know, it's just. It's just.
- [59:12]
Big Woz
It's no different. Afraid of God. They're doing a bit.
- [59:15]
Justin Ferrier
They're just highly talented athletic nerds. Yeah.
- [59:17]
Rob Mahoney
What more could we empathize with than that? But I have to ask Woz specifically. Mark Dagnault on the championship podium for his interview. You know, you've discussed his kind of like, even keeled nature and how you wish you could see some fracture in it. And I have to say I thought the mask slipped ever so slightly and it looked like we. Mark might get Mark Dagnal actually breaking down and showing some emotion. I'm curious if that impacted you at all. Did you. Did you react any way to it?
- [59:49]
Big Woz
No. The whole team, like, legitimately, you could tell, like, they are elated to have achieved this as a group. They seem to like each other. I wasn't surprised that Dagno actually had a human moment after winning the freaking championship. I mean, like, God damn, what a low bar to freaking to go over. Like, yeah, man, he definitely showed some feelings and showed some humanity. I just like to see all of these guys doing that more often. Bring the people in, folks, please.
- [60:21]
Justin Ferrier
Is it surprising to see a UConn grad in touch with his emotions?
- [60:26]
Rob Mahoney
It's shocking, I gotta say, based on my personal proximity to UConn grads, I'm not familiar with this concept.
- [60:33]
Justin Ferrier
But we are winners. I'll say that.
- [60:35]
Rob Mahoney
That's undeniable.
- [60:37]
Justin Ferrier
All right, why don't we flip now to a shining example of a player who has been stuck on perpetually unhappy teams for what seems like half of his career at this point, because before the finals happened, Kevin Durant finally got traded. What's funny is before last pod, which was on Friday, we talked about like, oh, should we talk about certain things? The Lakers sale just happened. I was like, katie thing. I don't really feel a certain way about it. If anything, it almost made me feel like JLo getting married again, where it's just like these things just kind of happen, you know, like wake. Wake me when it sticks for longer than two to three years. But the one thing we did talk about was like, I don't know if it's going to affect the race that much. But Rob, you said the one team where it would would be the Houston Rockets, which is where he ultimately ended up. Are you surprised? First and foremost, this is where we ended up. And what do you think about the return?
- [61:33]
Rob Mahoney
Overall, I'm more surprised by the return than the where. This is not the most overwhelming offer I've ever seen. I understand all the caveats with Kevin Durant. I understand that he's someone who's going to be due for a big money extension, that some franchises might not be super eager to pay at his age. All of that is totally fair. Still, Kevin Durant, like, he's still one of the best individual scorers we've ever seen. He's still coming off of a historically efficient season and I think in this case he lines up so perfectly with exactly what the Rockets need that I am hard pressed to say this is not like a meaningful move. Like I think there's lots of teams out there who could have traded for Katie and it'd be like, okay, he makes them better, but does he fix the Miami Heat and everything that is ailing that team? No, he does not. Does he fix the Houston Rockets and the slog that we saw of their half court offense in the playoffs? Maybe not every bit of it, but a damn well lot of it. And I think of the version of Houston that we saw in the playoffs against Golden State with Kevin Durant, granted, minus Dylan Brooks, minus Jalen Green, who your mileage may vary on that is a really dangerous team and it's a really dangerous team even to an opponent like the Thunder who just proved everything that they've got over the course of a championship run. But I'm looking at the Rockets in a different light. Like I don't know how you couldn't adding a player of that caliber and specifically a go to half court scorer of that caliber for a team that just did not have one, I definitely.
- [63:00]
Big Woz
Think they got better. There's no two ways about it and you know, all of the needs being what they are. It's just for me it feels like KD is going to be carrying this offense and he's 37. Like I don't know if that's what you want to do and I don't know that Houston feels like a team that's going to score efficiently against OKC in the playoffs next year. That doesn't feel like that's what happened today, but I could be wrong. I'd love to be proven wrong. Maybe they play OKC in some hyper competitive series that we'll love. I didn't get that. Wasn't my first reaction. It's just the age is like, man, when you just stare at that number, it's like 37. Like that's old, bro. And so we'll see.
- [63:46]
Justin Ferrier
Literally 37.
- [63:50]
Big Woz
Oh, to be carrying that offense and you know, again, like they have young guys that presumably are getting better, you know, like Jabari and you know, hopefully Reed shepherd can actually sniff the court this year. And you know, obviously Sengun was the sort of anchor of the offense this year. Like, they have guys that are capable of improvement, but they're going to have to like, KD's going to need help to springboard this offense. It's not just going to be him by himself like in the good old days when he was an MVP kind of guy. And so that's why I'm like, yo, it was. It's a great move for the Rockets. I do wonder if it does just elevate them from first round exit to the warriors who like, we love them as a team but like, I don't know, did we think like Golden State was like some sick team? I don't know. I don't know. I'm, I'm happy for them, but I'm like, I don't know how much better ultimately they're going to be.
- [64:47]
Justin Ferrier
See, that's kind of why I like it that they practically swapped the go to scorer role from Jalen Green to Kevin Durant that even in his old age can get some stuff done. I think he would have probably been at least third team all NBA if he had played enough games in order to be eligible. Definitely would have been in the mix at the end of the season there. And while Dylan Brooks has been helpful for that team, I ultimately always saw him as sort of a starter pack until they could turn it over to some of the young developing guys. They're basically on the same track, but they're just handing over the duties of scorer to a much more accomplished like steady hand. And I, I think the, the good of this is that you're giving more to the Tari and Bari combination at the four. One of them will presumably start. I think Jabari will probably get the first crack at it, but all your younger guys are still rearing and if anything the young guys got benched to the point where they weren't even playing. Cam Warren, Reed shepherd in particular. Now they get to be integral parts of the rotation or at least cracks at it. We'll see if, if Imi Adoka can bring himself to play Read shepherd actual minutes considering his defense So I like it in that regard that they're still on track. And then like the big like long term thing is like, what if they just saved all their powder for Giannis or anything else down the road where they could easily flip any of their better young guys like Sengun or, or Jabari or Cam or Reed. Like all those guys can be packed together with the 90 million picks they have in their coffers for a Giannis. And so like, I don't know, I like how much this just bolstered what they have as opposed to just completely rewrote the, the trajectory of the team.
- [66:25]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think what you said about kind of swapping out the first options. Justin, like Jalen Green and Katie basically take the same number of shots. One of them is just much better at taking shots than the other. So like I, I think yes, KD in the playoffs will be stretched a lot. Like if he can get there healthy and be the sort of half court influence that they need him to be, that will be an incredibly high usage role. The regular season though, the Rockets are a powerhouse offensive rebounding team. They want to get out and run, not unlike the Thunder and forced turnovers like they want Amen and Tari like creating like wreaking havoc. And they, and they're going to alleviate some of that pressure in a way that to be honest, Phoenix never could. Like the Suns always felt like the stars kind of trying to hold up a team that didn't really work because they never really had the connective tissue and the surrounding pieces to make it make sense. Houston has all that stuff. Like I, I almost hope, Justin, that they don't make a Giannis type swing or kind of swing for another star in the near future. Like I want to see the development of this young group who has just been missing a Kevin Durant type to sort of complete the picture. Like, I hope they get a couple of cracks at this to sort of figure it out and fine tune. And for someone like Ahmed Thompson, for example, to blossom into whatever the hell he's going to be, I honestly have no earthly idea, but I can't wait to find out.
- [67:40]
Big Woz
Yeah, that's the X factor to me. Like how much better offensively, specifically because he's already an insane all world defender. Like how much better is he going to be at defense? Like it's the offense that we want to see him take a jump. If him and Jabari take a jump, then you know, I'll be singing a different tune next season. Right. But ultimately we know what KD's going to be for this team, and I don't think if those guys remain at the level that they've been offensively, the young guys, that that's going to be quite enough. Now, if they develop and show themselves to be like, yo, especially at men, like, I'm an All Star kind of player, then shoot. Then now we, you know, we kind of cooking with fish grease.
- [68:25]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, I think Sengun is going to be kind of in the spotlight here a little bit. You would hope. After kind of a pretty disappointing finish to that first round series, he had like a moment or two, but ultimately just couldn't score at the lever that they needed in order to get out of that first round series. They probably should have won that series against the warriors. Considering Steph's injury. I think he's going to be the guy where it's like, all right, we got you, kd going to unlock some of your special qualities. And he did have an All Star season. And to his credit, the defense was light years better than it had. It's funny when you look at like him versus Jabari. Jabari is often talked about it is like the young guy, we'll see what's happening. But they're literally the exact same age from the same draft and so. But ultimately, can the wing defenders do enough in order to not expose him as a rent protector because it's not going to be his forte. We'll see about that. And so, like, I think that is a big question for them, but you're right, like, they still have options. It is going, but they're like almost using this as another petri dish. She's in just with Kevin Durant kind of waiting the Wings. One thing I will say is in addition to that, I like the spurs as an option specifically for the same reasons I like the Rockets, where it's like KD is glomming on to an established team with an identity that is going to be able to take more off of his plate. And at this stage of his career, he should be in the not necessarily Chris Paul at the spurs, but Chris Paul with the Sun's era of his life cycle where he's like just feeding the rest of these teams and he's showing up when you need him to, not every goddamn night. Like he had to be on both ends with the Suns.
- [69:55]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I mean, the bad news with either of those options, and especially with the way things turned out with Houston, is you're still in the Western Conference. You still got to deal with the Oklahoma City Thunder, you still got to be with deal with the 10 teams who are ahead of the Suns in the standings last season, or I guess now the nine because you joined the Houston Rockets. So a lot of that group is going to expect to come back better. And there are some question marks there, like, what is Denver do with their off season? There's a lot to sort out, you know, like, ultimately, what state will some of these teams be in with their injuries? Will the Lakers be able to add meaningful improvements to their roster? Who knows, like, but I think a lot of those teams have reason to believe that they will be better. And so the Rockets coming back and winning around 50 games again is probably not going to be enough to beat the second seed. Like, you're going to have to actually take a big step forward. And this is one way you do it is you. You get a big boy superstar who has done all of this stuff before and I think also meaningfully can guide some of these younger players on defense and can like. Kevin Durant is an incredibly versatile, incredibly accomplished player who has had success in all kinds of systems. I think he has a lot to teach these guys. You know, contrary to how curmudgeony his reputation may suggest that he is, or difficult his reputation may suggest he is. Not to say those things aren't true in their own right, but they come with this other stuff too, which is the wealth of experience that someone like Katie has at his disposal.
- [71:11]
Justin Ferrier
Because he's curmudgeony doesn't mean he doesn't love them, you know, it means that he's just being hard on them because he sees more in them that they don't see in themselves.
- [71:17]
Rob Mahoney
I love you too.
- [71:20]
Justin Ferrier
Wise. If we're looking at the west, though, just, just quickly, if we're seeing the Thunder maybe on a tier on themselves, like, where do the Rockets stack up against, say, the Lakers, the Nugs, the Clips, the Wolves, the Warriors? Like, are they in that second tier? Are they in the third tier behind some of those teams?
- [71:37]
Big Woz
I mean, if everything breaks right, then they're right there with Denver as the teams that can give OKC problems. Right. Um, I don't see the Lakers as being in that. Maybe they'll have some incredible off season. You know, my man Rob Pelinka just got re upped, so, you know, he's such a good executive. He might just have just a great off season. But yeah, man, the west is so. It's so muddled and I think matchup specific as well. I think Golden State's going to be really good next year, you know, health permitting. But talent on paper, you know, outside of okc, they can say they're as talented as any team in the entire Western Conference and that's just an amazing position to be in, to be honest.
- [72:28]
Justin Ferrier
Rob, do you feel any sort of way about the West? A lot to see now we have a whole off season to go through. But as it stands, I think the.
- [72:34]
Rob Mahoney
Rockets feel like a second tier team to me. A lot of these teams are going to be in a similar place and this is an off season. You know, we're going to get into it the full kind of look ahead at free agency and coming out of the draft and all those things. But a lot of these teams are one or two role players away. You know, like maybe they have their core but they need, you know, the lob threat big. They need the wing who can play playoff minutes. They need the real backup point guard because their starter is getting a little like those are what a lot of the needs look like. You know, obviously there are the teams out there too who would love to get another star. But I think a lot of these things can sort of be accomplished with the limited market that's out there, which is not the most loaded free agent class you've ever seen, but has a lot of good work at a NBA players who I think could make sense for some of these groups.
- [73:17]
Justin Ferrier
Well, the Suns are one of the teams that I think has a lot to figure out this off season, especially after this trade. I'll give them this, I'm going to play devil's advocate right off the jump here. Like it was always sunk cost that they wouldn't get anywhere near what they paid for kd. Like I see a lot of people comparing the two trades. There was no way they were even getting half of that. 75% of that I will say I will give them credit at the very least, in addition to getting their own pickback which is number 10 in this upcoming draft, we'll see what they get out of that. I think that range will get them a pretty decent player. It seems like they at least targeted players that don't box them in long term because if you had gotten back, for instance Julius Randle and gave him a new shiny extension for four or five years, then you're the Julius Randle show with Devin Booker and I don't think that's where you would want to be. At the very least you have Jalen Green on a two plus one contract. We'll see if they re spin him somewhere else. Dylan Brooks, whatever. He does what he does until you need to be a better team, then he goes on to another team. Right. He also is on a shorter term. Declining contract. Bradley Beal is on a one plus one. Finally. They keep leaking reports as if they're going to get rid of him. Like anyone wants one plus one meaning.
- [74:27]
Big Woz
So he's got two years left on his deal because he's picking that option.
- [74:31]
Rob Mahoney
Let's be real about that one.
- [74:33]
Justin Ferrier
Which is still better than where he was previously. But like, sure, they are. They have. They're not boxed in for five years at the very least. It's like the next two years are going to be probably pretty painful.
- [74:46]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [74:46]
Justin Ferrier
But then they might be able to come out of it. That's myself. Do you guys. Does it convince any of you guys.
- [74:51]
Rob Mahoney
Come out of it with what? They don't own any of their future picks like that. So these couple years of being bad, they're going to be, I think, not very good. At minimum, maybe they're able to strive for a certain kind of mediocrity. But, like, where is the. The upward momentum here? Like, where are you getting the vault into the next star who's going to play with Devin Booker or the next promising prospect? Like, where's that guy coming from?
- [75:15]
Big Woz
And the thing that's tough is that, like, there's just no free agency anymore. Right. Like, if they could be like, look, we're gearing up for a year, whatever, for free agency. Cause we're gonna get some big player. No, you're not.
- [75:29]
Justin Ferrier
Every player Chandler in the closet just signs extensions.
- [75:32]
Big Woz
So it's like the cap space. Like, you know, you can. You can use cap space to get stuff from teams like renting out your cap space and teams getting off of guys facilitating trades. Like, they can take that approach, but that's like a patience and a methodical approach that I don't know that Matt Ishbia has the makeup to endure. So I don't know. I don't know.
- [76:03]
Justin Ferrier
I ultimately agree with you guys. I think they're in for tough sledding. I would be looking to get rid of Devin Booker for whatever reason he seems like he wants to play out. Yeah, exactly. And so I think it's incumbent on them to at least try it. But at the very least, this gives them more wiggle room than instantly importing a guy who's going to be saddling him for the next couple of years. Maybe you swing green into a first and you get a first back that way. Maybe you swing Brooks if He plays well enough to a contender that just like needs a three indy wing at the trade deadline. I don't know, I'm trying to put like a, a brave face on this, but that's where we're at with the Suns. Like, you're just reaching because they most likely are going to be like one of the five to seven worst teams in the NBA next year.
- [76:44]
Rob Mahoney
I just like this new rosy Justin barrier. Just looking, looking for the sunny side.
- [76:50]
Justin Ferrier
I'm always trying to look at the angle.
- [76:51]
Big Woz
Glass half full, huh?
- [76:53]
Justin Ferrier
It's true.
- [76:55]
Big Woz
Mr. Optimism, Mr. Bright side.
- [77:01]
Justin Ferrier
How do you know I actually take the more optimistic side of things, if only to play devil's advocate more than you guys realize. I think you were just, you were anchored in your beliefs, unlike me. Looking to explore new ideas. Mr.
- [77:14]
Big Woz
Flexibility. Okay.
- [77:17]
Justin Ferrier
I love it like Stephen Hawking out here, you know, drawing on the board. Love me under alpha.
- [77:24]
Big Woz
And also like all these people saying, oh, the hall was terrible. Katie's 37. He's got one year left on his deal. There's no leverage. They have no leverage and everybody knows that there's no fixing it. They can't credibly say, oh no, we're going to be completely fine with KD coming back next year. No, like this was the best they could do. And I thought it was like pretty decent, man.
- [77:46]
Justin Ferrier
Like it was fine.
- [77:49]
Rob Mahoney
This is where like I fully acknowledge that they don't have the leverage, but also I just don't like any of the stuff that they got. Really.
- [77:54]
Big Woz
As like you don't like the number 10 pick.
- [77:56]
Rob Mahoney
It's fine.
- [77:57]
Big Woz
You're not a picks head.
- [77:59]
Rob Mahoney
Not that kind of picks.
- [78:00]
Justin Ferrier
About five seconds. That's Jay Crowder money right there.
- [78:03]
Rob Mahoney
That's like what you gave up to swap Chris Paul for Brad Beal in addition to four first round pick swaps or whatever. Like I support them replenishing some of the picks that they sent out in all of these other transactions. But here's what it comes down to. Like, if you're going to trade Kevin Durant, I want one thing that I feel really good about. It doesn't have to be great all around package. It doesn't have to hit all the boxes that you want for trading a superstar because yes, he is the age that he is and yes, he's on the contract that he's on and yes, he has all the Kevin Durant shape problems that we know and love. I just want one thing and that one thing could have been Reed Shepherd. If you're a believer in Reed Shepherd. That one thing could have been Cam Whitmore. If you're a believer in Cam Whitmore. I'm just seeing like Jalen Green, a player that I don't like very much and that has proven out to have not much of a trade market. And maybe that will change. Maybe they're going to flip Jalen Green into something magnificent in a month. I will believe it when I see it. I just wish they would have gotten back one thing that feels like, okay, here is the. Here's the tent pole of this transaction that I can feel confident about.
- [79:05]
Big Woz
The tent pole is the 10th pick, Rob. That's what they're going to tell their franchise. They're going to be like, you. Did you just watch the NBA Finals? J dub was the 12th pick or 14th pick or whatever the hell he was. Shay was a late, you know, lottery pick. We're about to get our Shay or J Dub this summer, Bob. That's Carter Bryant on his own.
- [79:26]
Justin Ferrier
That's right.
- [79:27]
Rob Mahoney
J Dub and Shay are gonna carry water for mid first round picks for a long time.
- [79:31]
Big Woz
That's what we do.
- [79:32]
Justin Ferrier
Do you know who that, who, who that number 10 pick belonged to originally, by the way?
- [79:38]
Rob Mahoney
Well, it's. Is it not. It's not the sun's own pick, isn't it?
- [79:41]
Justin Ferrier
It's the sun's own pick.
- [79:42]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. This has gone all the way around and back.
- [79:46]
Justin Ferrier
So it is a real cruel last, like dagger twist to be like, oh, yeah, you could have your own pickback. That's what you get for all that hassle over Kevin Durant for two years.
- [79:56]
Big Woz
The KD thing, that was, that was never gonna work.
- [80:01]
Justin Ferrier
Also the fact that they ended up getting another shooting guard is fucking hilarious. You were already overloaded at one position and you traded Kevin Durant for another guy at that exact.
- [80:13]
Big Woz
No, because Jalen Green or Bradley Biller wholly capable of playing the one. Everybody knows this is true.
- [80:21]
Rob Mahoney
I want to, I want to speak something into existence right now. If Jalen Green, Bradley Beal and Devin Booker are all on the roster and healthy for the first day of the regular season, the Phoenix Suns regular season, we as group chat need to go and cover it in person like that. I need to see it. I need to see it. I need to.
- [80:40]
Big Woz
Eye rolls every time a guy just jacks up a pull up three.
- [80:44]
Rob Mahoney
You're not going to take up that over the broadcast?
- [80:47]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. Can we get like a booth in like the stands like they do for the finals will be like live on the scene. Jalen Green just took his 133 from about half court. He's 1 for 13 on the game.
- [81:00]
Big Woz
Have the Sun's hired a coach yet?
- [81:02]
Rob Mahoney
They have, yeah.
- [81:03]
Justin Ferrier
Jordan Ott?
- [81:04]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [81:04]
Big Woz
Oh, yeah. Okay.
- [81:06]
Justin Ferrier
Late of the Cleveland Cavaliers, so they're leaning younger. I don't have much hope.
- [81:12]
Big Woz
Good.
- [81:12]
Justin Ferrier
Future or the president of the future.
- [81:14]
Rob Mahoney
Find out.
- [81:15]
Justin Ferrier
I guess you have options. So there's something. Okay. All right, let's wrap it there. That's it for the season, brothers.
- [81:23]
Rob Mahoney
Crazy.
- [81:23]
Justin Ferrier
We're on to the off season, including.
- [81:25]
Big Woz
Robber's favorite time of year, y' all.
- [81:28]
Justin Ferrier
That's right. I had to tell Rob. Like, you have to wait to talk about speculation, baby.
- [81:33]
Rob Mahoney
Here's the thing.
- [81:34]
Justin Ferrier
We're doing that in the second half of this podcast. We have to talk about the title game first.
- [81:38]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [81:39]
Justin Ferrier
You have to wait.
- [81:40]
Rob Mahoney
You know, I appreciate you telling me to hold my horses. I don't mind the actual off season. I just don't want to talk about the off season in January. That's what I don't want personally. So now that we're here, guess what? We're here together. And I have to say, it's been a fucking treat. You guys, this has been such a fun season. I'm so glad we get to do this. I'm so thankful for Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz who have been rocking these late nights with us all throughout the playoffs. And honestly, for the groupies out there, too. You guys have been showing up in ways big and small all throughout this season. The inbox has been flooding. I appreciate it. Sometimes. Sometimes I don't. The messages really vary in there, but.
- [82:17]
Justin Ferrier
Some of them are really great variables. Just based off of the emails.
- [82:23]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yes. I mean, honestly, here's the thing. Maybe should we outsource new variables? Music stings for next season. Is that a thing we should do?
- [82:32]
Big Woz
Do we have a music contingent? Like, we got like. Like artists in the. In the listenership?
- [82:39]
Rob Mahoney
Who do you think our listeners are? Was.
- [82:41]
Big Woz
I don't know, accountants and dentists.
- [82:45]
Rob Mahoney
I like to think that someone out there is doing dental surgery with their earbuds in and it's just us talking about the Cleveland Cavaliers.
- [82:52]
Justin Ferrier
Let's talk to Daniel Ek. Let's get, like. Let's get Shakira out here or something.
- [82:57]
Rob Mahoney
Okay. Spotify Care. Prove it.
- [83:03]
Justin Ferrier
All right, so we'll be back Thursday recapping some stuff that happens on night one of the NBA draft. Hopefully there will be a lot of trades because we don't know about the draft prospects, but we'll figure it out on the fly. We'll talk to you then. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz.