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The Ringer NBA Show
The Thunder Get Physical to Take Game 2. Plus, the Offseason Wheel of Destiny. | Group Chat
01:28:11
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- [00:16]
Justin Varior
Hello and welcome group chat. I am Justin Varior, and joining me, Rob Mahoney. Rob, have you been pounding electrolytes after yet another incredible game between the spurs and the Thunder?
- [00:28]
Rob Mahoney
I am pounding them because like, hell, am I also going to pull a hamstring. Like, is that why Kyle is in here today?
- [00:33]
Justin Varior
I think so, yeah. He just needed a DNP old for the night. But we powered through and good God, did the spurs and the Thunder power through in this game two performance. I feel like the first game was just the spectacle of it all. The two overtimes, a Wemby shot. That's like, we're going to see that shot a thousand more times before he gets into the hall of fame in 20 years.
- [00:53]
Rob Mahoney
Wait genuinely to pause for a second. Over. What's the over? Under on how many times you and I will see that shot before we die?
- [01:00]
Justin Varior
It's hundreds, right? It's like at least 2 to 500.
- [01:03]
Rob Mahoney
It'll be every highlight package of his, like, playoff performances. It'll be a part of his, like, you know, hall of Fame clip reel someday, hopefully. So I don't think we're ever gonna escape it. I'm not mad about it.
- [01:15]
Justin Varior
I think this one will go into a Hall of Fame, like, clip package, but it might just be one that circulates online about Isaiah Hartenstein, because this game was. Was very much like the MMA wrassling. Like, you have to survive this matchup. And I think Heartstein broke out literal MMA moves against.
- [01:35]
Rob Mahoney
Well, I already have started separate clip farms just pulling those packages together. Some, like, pro OKC propaganda, some pro spurs propaganda being like, look how dirty this is. You really can't have too many bases covered. But what an Isaiah Hartenstein game and. And what, Honestly, an incredible performance by Mark Dagnault in the Thunder and Hartenstein more broadly to pull him into relevance in the series when it seemed like he might be played out of it or at least played into somewhat meaningless minutes by. As soon as game two or game
- [02:04]
Justin Varior
three, we're going to talk about all that. All the action from game two between the Thunder and the Spurs. We're going to look ahead to Knicks Cavs game two at msg. Then we're going to get into some offseason talk. First Jason Kidd out with the Mavericks, and then we're going to debut the off season Wheel of Destiny. It's actually a name tk. We're not totally sure if we like that one, but if you have other ideas or if you're a sponsor, you want to sponsor that Ferraro, Our guys in the chocolate factory, let us know. But first we got to take a break. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. FanDuel is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus select states 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler, call 1-888-78-9777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. All right, so this one was, dare I say, a slobber knocker. So we had potentially three injuries. We know of two. J Dub left the game with a hamstring injury. Harper, Dylan Harper leaves later on with a right leg injury. And then it seemed like AJ Mitchell even was like really gingerly walking off the court and seemed pretty concerned. When he fell, it seemed like his hamstring. So we have all of that.
- [03:36]
Rob Mahoney
And that's on top of Darren Fox, who also did not play in game two after game one.
- [03:40]
Justin Varior
That's right. So clearly the double OT game kind of filtering into this one. We had 22 players check into this game, including 12 from OKC. And it wasn't just like a late game, like, oh, like we're getting a bunch of bodies in to fill out the game. There was like an Aaron WIGGINS like, like 11 seconds, like end of a quarter situation. But with nine minutes to go in the second quarter, OKC had already played 11 different guy. We had McLaughlin out of nowhere.
- [04:08]
Rob Mahoney
MCLAUGHLIN Real Jordan McLaughlin minutes. Come on.
- [04:11]
Justin Varior
He's back. The Spurs, 21 turnovers. But God, Isaiah Hartenstein basically being an offensive tackle in this one in order to wrangle Wemby. It was effective.
- [04:21]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [04:21]
Justin Varior
I do wonder going forward if they'll allow it to be effective. Go in three and four and beyond. But like, I think this is the Isaiah Hardenstein game, Rob.
- [04:29]
Rob Mahoney
I think it has to be. I think the combination of what he was doing defensively, physically getting under Wemby skin and just guarding Wimby in the first place. Right. Being on the floor enough to take that assignment away from, you know, J Dub, who even when he was out there, it's like, let's try to limit that matchup as much as possible. Alex Caruso can only do so much. As we saw Game one, you need that size against him and this felt like a night and day affair in terms of where Wemby was getting his touches in the first place. And I think a lot of that was because of that physicality and because of the way Hartenstein was denying him from Just like this episode is brought to you by Ferrero. Soccer's international tournament is here and Ferrero is going all in. Enter for your shot at a range of prizes just by buying your favorites like Tic Tac Fresh Mints Cool, minty and simple or Halo Top ice cream loaded with crave worthy mix ins in every bite and half the calories of leading competitors. Go all in. Buy any two Ferrero brands and you could win $1,000,000. Official rules apply. Learn more at goallinandwin.com Walking to the basket to set up shop and also contesting both in terms of if you had to step up to get a hand up against like a an entry pass or playing back with Wemby to try to deny him, both really effective. But with all of that with the couple of push shots going in for him, which are honestly very important, and also the offensive rebounding where he was part of just a larger kind of gang rebounding effort by the Thunder to neutralize a huge spurs advantage, that's enough to tip a game like this.
- [06:01]
Justin Varior
So I think there was a chorus of people wondering if Hartenstein just wasn't built for for this series, didn't play a lot in game one. It seemed like they were matching more of his minutes with Cornet than Wemby and we'd seen that in the past. Caruso seems to be just an interesting foil for Wemby and so they just rode that as much as possible. I was a little skeptical though, because especially as the data started to come in and you saw where Wemby was effective in that game. Like obviously the big shining moment was the three from Steph Curry range and that's the one that's going to get a lot of attention. Deservedly so, right? But like there's this one graphic that was circulating. I think it was from the ESPN broadcast or maybe it was even like a Kurt Goldsberry thing because it was one of those like you plot every bucket from the guy, like visually speaking, and they're all at the basket, 13 buckets right at or near the basket. And I'm just like, Hartenstein's not this big old plotter who can't move with them. And also if Wemby's going to be at the basket. That is where you want Hartenstein to be a little bit more physical with them. It seemed like they had the same sort of idea. And from the jump, it seemed like Hartenstein went into this game basically being like, I'm at the very least going to use all of my fouls. Like, if I'm only going to play 12 minutes, I'm going to fall out of this game. They didn't call it. And so he kind of just kept going with it. And it seemed like Wemby was a little, like, thrown for it. Like, maybe quite literally throw, because sometimes he was just, like, really getting in there and just, like, hooking him and whatnot. But, like, I just don't know what you do if you're Wemby in that situation, if they're going to let that go.
- [07:24]
Rob Mahoney
Well, you elbow Naz Reed in the throat, historically is what you do.
- [07:28]
Justin Varior
Right? So you're saying take a shot at, like, Jared McCain.
- [07:30]
Rob Mahoney
I'm not saying you should, but, like, you understand why the frustration boils over. This happens to stars of all kinds. You know, if you are a player who is working inside at all, or even if you're someone like Steph Curry who's trying to work around screens, you just see all of the grabbing and holding and body bumping and hooking that happens with players like that. Like, you have to find ways to limit them. And you're right, they can't call everything. They did call a bunch of fouls on Isaiah Hartenstein, though, and he got into early foul trouble. And Mark Dagnall and his staff were like, no, it's cool. Stay out there. Because frankly, for someone like Hartenstein, it's just not really going to be a problem. Like, he's not going to push 40 minutes in a game like this. And so if he fouls out and that limits how much he can be on the floor in endgame, so be it. You play smaller. The Thunder perfectly comfortable doing that. And in the meantime, you wage some psychological warfare on Wemby and maybe draw some fouls going the other way in the process. I thought Oklahoma City overall just took it to Wemby so much more consistently than they did in Game one. They drove at him, they got some fouls racked up on Wemby to the point that the spurs had to use repeated challenges to peel some of them off to keep him on the floor. But, like, don't treat it as a given that Wemby is going to be there and be in the right position at all times, like drive aggressively, be incredibly physical with him, get him into the muck either so he's out of position and just kind of like bumped off ever so slightly from where he wants to be as a rim protector. Or I mean maybe even push him out of the game entirely if he just needs a breather because of the physicality of the game or if he gets into foul trouble himself. Like they did enough to kind of make that less of a certainty in game two.
- [09:04]
Justin Varior
So Wemby had 13 paint buckets, as I was alluding to in game one. He had eight paint attempts, attempts huge in game two. So that was the strategy paying off on the other side of this with just a lack of guard depth even to start with. Not having Fox definitely showed, especially once Harper goes down with an injury. It seems like he collided with Chat on a rebound, but it seemed like he had a right leg injury as a result of it. He came back, it seemed like, only to potentially shoot free throw that he didn't have to take, went away and then we never saw him again. But Castle, once again, this turnover is just racking up there. I think he had five just like really early in this one. I think like early in the second quarter, by the end of the game he had nine. And so combined with last game, he has 20 over the past two games. And I have this stat from Justin Russo. So in addition to Sleepy Floyd, Cade Cunningham and James Harden, Steve Steph Castle becomes one of four players in league history to have 20 turnovers during any two game stretch. He's the first person to do that in the postseason.
- [10:11]
Rob Mahoney
Yikes. Not a list you want to be on. Look, I'm of two minds about the turnover issues more broadly. One, especially when you're already down a couple of ball handlers by the end of the game, some of these things are just going to happen. Like Steph Castle is going to be overtaxed. There are going to be some mistakes. Some of them, I will say late were quite costly.
- [10:33]
Justin Varior
Right.
- [10:33]
Rob Mahoney
The spurs did mount quite like a pretty nice comeback to put themselves in a position to challenge this game in the final minutes. And then Castle tried to find, I want to say it was Julian Shempen who he thought was cutting backdoor but wasn't and threw away like the. The back breaking possession that really could have made this thing interesting. That's tough. Earlier in the game though, you're right. There were a lot of turnovers that were just like a little needless that were just kind of mishandling the ball, like he has to clean some of this stuff up. I'm okay with the ones that are sins of aggression, though. You know, like the ones where he is driving into and through people. And I mean, for as much as this was the Isaiah Hartenstein game, dunking all over the top of people as well, like, we love those parts of the Steph Castle experience and they're really important to what the spurs do. And so you want. It's hard to have one without the other when your guard is this young and this inexperienced and going through all these playoff battles for the first time against the best defensive team in the sport. But it has to be better than historically awful turnover lists. Like, it just has to be a little bit cleaner than that. Yeah.
- [11:31]
Justin Varior
And this is where the lack of experience, I think, begins to show in part because, like, I just don't think that a lot of these spurs players have played this much in, like, ever. Like this much in a season, this much in a postseason. And so I do have to wonder if these sorts of things are starting to compile also, like, this is kind of who Castle is. You want him to be the brash aggressor, especially defensively, who brings the athletic, athletic and physicality edge that is caught up against the kind of pivot, pivot moves from Dylan Harper and the smoothness of that. And then Fox is kind of more of the steady hands. Not having the Fox steady hand in this one was really disappointing. I have to imagine the decision there was partly influenced by the fact that they won the first game and perhaps they were being a little bit more cautious with this one. But you definitely saw where like they needed that. I will say, like they were in this game down to the end without that. And so they have to probably feel good about that, especially when you factor in the whistle that they were getting. But like just relying on Castle, I mean, he's a second year player. This just felt like a lot on him, considering the moment.
- [12:35]
Rob Mahoney
Well, this is one where you can't know what happens in this game if you're the Spurs. And so the opportunity to go up 20 and really take a stranglehold in this series, it would be an incredibly tempting one. But they thought they were going to have Dylan Harper, who had the start of yet another great game. And as we're saying all this about Stefan Castle and his turnovers, we should note Dylan Harper is like an exceptionally low turnover creator, particularly for his age. And so if he had been a part of this game all the way through as they had intended. Maybe the spurs win this thing. Like, maybe they're clean enough in terms of their execution with the two guards out there. Because this is something that both of these teams are now reckoning with. These are two clubs that love to have that kind of dual ball handler approach basically at all times. So the Thunder, Shay and J.B. dub and A.J. mitchell are kind of like toggling in pairs for the most part in the rotation. And for the spurs they have their three guards who when healthy are all kind of taking turns as well. But that's just like throwing out the window. And the Thunder are a little more equipped to deal with that given the guys who they still have healthy. But I can't wait to see, depending on who is available for game three, how both of these defenses kind of approach that, like if A.J. mitchell can't go and J Dub can't go for game three, how, how aggressively are the spurs going to go after Shay? And the same you could say about Stefan Castle as well. Like, for as much as you want to focus on Wemby, there's a real opportunity to shake these guys up just based on the lack of alternative ball handling on the floor. With all due apology to Jordan McLaughlin who I how it has to be the most like Gen X looking man. Who is Gen Z?
- [14:07]
Justin Varior
Did you think for a second, wait, is that Javon Carter? Wait, no, no, it's actually Jordan McLaughlin.
- [14:11]
Rob Mahoney
They are one. I mean, have we ever seen them in the same room? Are we sure they don't share an energy source of some kind?
- [14:17]
Justin Varior
It's true. But like this is where I think the depth of the Thunder, like pays off. We keep talking about it, but it's like it's just so unparalleled in recent basketball history. That's just. It's tough that like I already thought like they were a little bit shaky without J Dub in there late, especially considering how much they were hounding sga. Like we want, we need to get into like some of the zone, like defenses they were throwing out there. And also the aggressive pickup points on the doubles on Shea the longer the game went on. But obviously AJ was the release valve for that. I thought he was a little loose with his dribble at times, wasn't particularly efficient scoring wise. But then he goes out and all of a sudden Jared McCain is the one to step in there. And I have to say McCain didn't have a particularly good shooting performance. Like there are a couple, like, wide open, like, looks for him, especially in that short corner. I was like, oh, would have been nice, probably would have tilted things, but he came up with a lot of big plays including like the, the tip that, that he won. He got the banker to go in and then late he was the one handling the ball in order to set up Shay for the midi. And so like this is what happens when you go three to four deep and this is what happens when the Sixers unfortunately gift you a critical rotation player in the midst of a like a back to back sort of title chase there.
- [15:28]
Rob Mahoney
It's an underrated part of McCain's game. He's like, he's no one's idea of an, of like a, you know, first class defender. You don't count on him to pull down like a ton of rebounds, but he clearly can shoot. He's a great off ball mover in that way, but he can also handle a little bit. He can get you into some sets. Like you don't want him to do anything too flashy. But I think he's actually played a really important part for them in transition as well. Like he's one of the, one of those guys who like, if he catches with any room in front of him, he is taking off in a dead sprint to try to get to the basket. He's not running to the three point line, he's not kind of dawdling. He's not trying to reset the offense. He is trying to turn every borderline scenario into fast break points. And he might have to do that even more if some of these other guards and J Dub aren't ready to go for game three. Like they're going to need that influence. And to be honest though, like, all of this depth for OKC that we, we talk about, that we praise, it all depends on Shea even still. And, and you could see that some in game one, like if, if you can kind of bottle and contain and make the MVP second guess himself or second guess his reads even just a little bit, you can really limit what the Thunder are offensively. I thought this was like an unbelievable game from Shea in that regard. And such a cool response from him. I would say in part because he was not making the right basketball play all the time. It was like I see the open shooter on the weak side. I don't care like that that three points that we could get is nice. But you know what is more important than that is like that I am that the spurs are feeling Shai as a live threat all the time. And so he was hunting mismatches, hunting opportunities, quick hesitations into really decisive moves into his mid range stuff. I mean, just like a, A virtuoso performance from one of the great and well balanced scorers in the league. And one that, you know, is not a given after the way he played in game one. And the spurs defended him in game one.
- [17:16]
Justin Varior
A classic cool, to use your term, like 30 and nine. You look up and all of a sudden it's like, oh, Shea is 30 and nine. Like, I, I wasn't expecting that he did enough in the first half, but you saw once he started to click in, in the third quarter, I almost felt like the spurs kind of overreacted. Like they went to the matchup zone and I felt like they weren't executing every play, but I felt like the Thunder were getting good looks, including some of those corner looks from. From. I think it was AJ and I think also McCain. Like, I was surprised not only that they went to it. I understand it as like a mix up just to like throw something new at them, but it almost felt like an overreaction when they had largely contained Shay to being just like effective, but like not taking over the game. I wonder, I'm curious what you think about that. Like, I don't know, just felt like a little bit too much too soon from the spurs defense.
- [18:06]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, the zone was pretty good in game one. I thought it was a nice, as you said, like a change of pace alternative. The problem is, once you put that on tape and you saw this with the way that the Thunder were executing against it, I mean, Jesus Christ, it
- [18:17]
Justin Varior
was just Caruso at the free throw line.
- [18:19]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [18:20]
Justin Varior
Was like fucking prime magic, you know,
- [18:22]
Rob Mahoney
Caruso at the free throw line and then it was just everything underneath. Like, Wemby pulls up, everyone's cutting back door. Now you're finding ways for Chet to get involved in the offense because he can be a cutter in that way. This is, this is one of those things with Wemby where I think if you're a role player on the opposing team, you are tempted to always be programmed to think space. Spacing, spacing, spacing, stand in the corner, hold my spot, maybe do an exchange on the weak side to kind of confuse the defense a little bit. But like, we have to maintain the spatial integrity of our offense above everything else. With Wemby, though, like, you, you have to overwhelm him with activity. Like you have to pull him in different directions and then dare him to make like the close out to the other side of the lane that no other shot blocker can. Because, yeah, he's going to get it sometimes and he might even have a historic like block total like he did against the Wolves. But you just have to keep doing it and keep going at him and keep pulling him in all those different directions at once. And you're just not going to do that with Lou Dort taking corner threes. Like, it's just not going to freak out the spurs in the way that getting Caruso to the middle of the floor against the zone and then just pinpoint passes on the baseline. Like that's going to stress test what the Spruce do.
- [19:26]
Justin Varior
Yeah. Speaking of door, we should mention he started pretty well. Like he put up like five points in short order, but all of a sudden as we look through the minute totals, like didn't play much down the stretch. What do you think about that? Like, I think he was lumped into the Isaiah Hartenstein conversation after Game one. Like maybe he's just like not built for this particular series. Do you think that's the same case in Game two?
- [19:47]
Rob Mahoney
Well, I think just in general it is more of a Alex caruso, Kayson, Wallace, A.J. mitchell kind of series than it is a Lou Dort one. But I, I was pretty did you
- [19:58]
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- [20:59]
Rob Mahoney
by that initial stretch and who he was. You know, we know what Ludor can do defensively. We know that his shot is going to come and go, but he might show up in a huge game at the right moment. But he was a driver in a way that I thought allowed OKC to be a little more selective about who was actually taking the jumpers like he was attacking and then spraying out to other guys like setting up J. Will for a three who's just a much better option for that shot. So if, if he can continue to do that. That's really nice. I just think if J Dub is hurt in particular, there's not a lot of room for Ludor to be a huge part of this series. Like, now getting secondary ball handling on the floor is such a primary concern for them, even if it is Casey Wallace, even if it is Alex Caruso. Like, you just need guys who can handle and create a little bit and facilitate some offense for you. And Ludor driving will take it in small doses, but, like, you don't want that as a. As a serious mechanism of your offense.
- [21:51]
Justin Varior
Well, this is going to be interesting going forward now, because J Dub, I would say of all the injuries that happen, that's the one that's obviously going to be a huge concern, not only because of where he is in the hierarchy, but just the fact that this is the same hamstring that he injured throughout the season. Like, he hasn't been right this entire regular season into the postseason. And so we're recording this around 9pm Pacific right now, right after the game, so we're not totally sure what's going on. They had called it tightness as opposed to a strain, but clearly something was not right for him to not come back.
- [22:19]
Rob Mahoney
Like, I mean, a strain is kind of tightness. You know, it's the generalization of these terms, like, we gotta. We gotta relax.
- [22:27]
Justin Varior
But I. I would have to assume, like, his, like, availability for the rest of this series is probably endowed at this point. I think it ultimately, like, circles back to Chet and, like, how much he's doing or not doing. I feel like he had moments in this game. There was one series where he was blocked, I believe, on two successive possessions from Wemby, one that got overturned for a challenge. And so he had some moments. I just feel like Chet's never going to be the one to really assert himself, especially offensively in a way that's really going to satisfy you. He's going to play within the game. And in this one, when Wemby's out there, it's just way more difficult for him. And so, I don't know. I just. I keep coming away from these performances, especially considering how much this was built up to be chat versus Wemby from when they first came into the league. It's really just become like Wemby's taken off, and it's like, see you chat in the background. What do you think about Chet in this one?
- [23:21]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, he did guard Wemby some, too, and, like, as a secondary to Isaiah Hardenstein and keeping some of the Thunder Smalls out of that matchup a little bit, which I do think is important. This was a better scoring game for him, a better offensive game for him, period. All of the downstream stuff off of Shea being so aggressive helps Chet be great. I would disagree with you a little bit though on the idea that Chet can never be the guy who's like really pushing it. I think against 2/3 of the league he could be that guy. And if, especially if other teams play small. We saw enough signs from him this season where he was like beasting other small ball fives just with his length and finishing inside. Like it was a real force in there in a way that I think a lot of people would have been waiting for. It's just that's not going to happen with Wimby. That's not going to happen with Luke Cornett. And so unless the spurs at some point in the series bail on Cornette and go back to like Harrison Barnes and Keldon Johnson at the five as they've done at points the season, maybe that's a time where he can be like really aggressive with his offense, but it's just going to be hard for him to get to any of his stuff anytime Wemby is on the floor. And so, so long as that is the case, it's going to be a little more like this, a little pretty situational, pretty contextual. Can you knock down the occasional like corner three spot up shot? And also can you be aggressive in the dunker when you know the defense pulls towards Caruso or Shea or whoever?
- [24:36]
Justin Varior
Yeah, I guess I'm asking a lot for him. Although like considering like his talent and like just his skill set package, like I don't think it's unreasonable. A lot of it just comes down to like self creation, putting on the deck, like, like seeing what the defense gives you and creating off of that, which is high level stuff for most players. We're talking about like mvp, all NBA level stuff, but like Chat is in this ballpark. It just doesn't feel like he has the confidence perhaps in his dribble in order to do that.
- [25:02]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, would you against the spurs, like. Well, it's all lurking next door.
- [25:07]
Justin Varior
Yes, it's particularly difficult in this match, especially considering how much size you're giving away. And even in some of the no center lineups where Chat is the de facto big, it seemed like they were getting really pummeled on the board with Cornette in there. I think there was like four offensive rebounds just right off the bat with when they went to that and it's just like. I don't know. I just. It was. Especially with JDub out, you want more from chat. And I realized that the spurs are a diff. A certain challenge, but still, like, this is kind of what they need in this moments. Otherwise you're really banking on AJ Mitchell being the guy from the Lakers series or some of these other guys who are typically thrust into more narrow reserve supplementary roles to take on, like a real thrust. And the only guy that was consistently done that for the Thunder outside of AJ in the Laker series has been Caruso. And like, they'll get that from him, I. I imagine, just because he just comes alive in these sorts of moments. But you're hoping for a lot for like, not a lot of resources.
- [26:04]
Rob Mahoney
It. I think it's totally fair points on Chad. I. I think the only. The only caveat I would add is like, the Thunder offense overall was plenty good enough in this game to win where you don't necessarily need him to be forc. And so it felt like the kind of game where Shea had a lot going. A lot of the other supporting cast were making shots or making impact plays. And so there wasn't even really that moment where it was like, Shay is out for three minutes. Where's the offense going to come from? Like, the Thunder were just in a good flow for the most part, which is I think, the most demonstrable difference from game one.
- [26:36]
Justin Varior
So you're the Spurs. We're going back home. You're putting on the spurs, the literal spurs and the cowboy hats and. And you're going out to Kelton Johnson's lamb farm. What are you talking about? What are you drawing up for the next game?
- [26:49]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, what we're going to do with all this lamb, I think is where we start.
- [26:52]
Justin Varior
Where we start. Fucking touch that lamb.
- [26:54]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, fair enough.
- [26:54]
Justin Varior
They're only for petting.
- [26:55]
Rob Mahoney
I will say on the Kelton Johnson front, this did feel like a game where he was a shot in the arm for them. And if you're going to. If you're going to levy any criticism toward Chet, the possession where Kelton Johnson, like big boy Chet into three straight offensive rebounds and just like put back his own shot, like that's the kind of thing you want to see Chad be able to put away, by the way, pretty tough.
- [27:15]
Justin Varior
We didn't talk about the self fouls from Wemby. Like he had three of them where he just got his own offensive and almost like knew he missed it and just immediately followed it up and just no one could even get in his way because his limbs are just so
- [27:29]
Rob Mahoney
gigantic that the tip dunk, like the, the self put back tip dunk that Wimby is like pulling off on a regular basis now is just like a visually jarring play to see. I also think this is one of those things where, you know, as we've talked about, all of the ways in which him just like getting a little bit older and a little. A little stronger physically have paid off, he just falls down a lot less. And so there are so many of those plays where whether it's a runner or just like something around the basket, he's kind of chucking up. He's always there, like pursuing his own shot. And that's. That's the kind of thing where if you're just doing that again and again and again, it can feel like a really overwhelming element to the game.
- [28:06]
Justin Varior
We gotta get with those Monks, man.
- [28:08]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, we seriously do, like, where do we even start? Like, do Monks have a LinkedIn page?
- [28:14]
Justin Varior
Well, it's funny because Ramona Shelburne wrote that piece for ESPN and like her like tweet out of it was like, oh, I've been waiting all year for the monk to call me back. I'm just like thinking like, what is the process? Does the monk have a PR guy? Like, are you sending it via email? Is it more of a snail mail situation? How are you getting Right. Just keeps it on him all the time. Yeah, I was just. I'm more fascinated by the story behind the story of how you get in touch with the Monks.
- [28:40]
Rob Mahoney
I think we're gonna have to find out. I mean, could we do this, this off season? Like, would you be willing. Be you and Kyle go out, spend some time with the monks? Like, could we. Could we do a month in a monastery?
- [28:50]
Justin Varior
I would last maybe a couple days before I needed to check some stupid social media app.
- [28:55]
Rob Mahoney
And that's the breaking point for you. You're like, I gotta know who's hitting me up on Blue sky.
- [29:00]
Justin Varior
Or if I don't have like a burger for like two weeks, I would probably. I don't think I could subsist on just like rice and whatever, like vegan diet. They're probably serving them.
- [29:09]
Rob Mahoney
It'd be. It would be an adjustment for us, but that part might be healthy for all involved and certainly the benefits, you know, if. If it's good enough for Wimy, I think it would be good enough for us. But sorry, we've gone very far afield from the larger question of what you actually do if you're the Spurs. And I don't even know how you begin to broach that until you know if Dylan Harper is going to play or dear and Fox is going to play. Because the game plan for a Stefan Castle co Sign Jordan McLaughlin Run offense has to be dramatically different, does it not?
- [29:39]
Justin Varior
Absolutely. Unless McLaughlin turns into Javon Carter and gives you a different dimension here.
- [29:45]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [29:47]
Justin Varior
I think you walk away from this one sending a lot of emails to the league about the physicality.
- [29:53]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [29:53]
Justin Varior
And now I'll say this. The spurs match that down the stretch. At a certain point just felt like they just said it and we're just going to harass SGA and like deny, deny, deny every single time.
- [30:02]
Rob Mahoney
As you should.
- [30:04]
Justin Varior
As you should. It's just like they just don't benefit from the same sort of advantage because like Wemby's just such a unique thing and like if you're going to physically restrain him from getting going, like, yeah, it's really. You can't turn to your other guard in order to make something happen.
- [30:17]
Rob Mahoney
It's true.
- [30:18]
Justin Varior
And so that would be my first point of emphasis would be literally getting the points of emphasis out to the next batch of referees. But from there I don't know. I. They were right in this down the stretch. I feel like they played a good game considering who they have. They just got to hope that Fox and or Harper gets back into this one for sure.
- [30:35]
Rob Mahoney
And I think even if those guys don't play, there's so many ways to tap into Wemby and his skill level that are devastating for opposing bigs who try to guard him. Like there's a reason why the idea of Isaiah Hardenstein guarding him in the first place felt like a dangerous thing to do for the Thunder. And so you just have to kind of exercise some of those things. Like it's. It's running Wemby off of curls as if he's Klay Thompson. And then now you're asking Isaiah Hartenstein, this like big hulking center to be a lock and trail defender in a way that like he's never going to be able to do well. And then you create switches that way, then you get some momentum that way you turn a couple of those curls into moves where Wemby is going around the screen and then straight towards the rim. And now you have the misdirection to your offense. So it's like there's a lot of off ball stuff you can do with Wemby now that you know who's going to Be covering him a little bit more. And I think they do know that regardless of whatever the Thunder might want to do as like a counter, counter punch, because J Dub would be the alternative. And I think it's very safe to say even if J Dub does play, asking him to guard Victor Webanyama under these circumstances might just be like, a little too extreme for the Thunder to do.
- [31:37]
Justin Varior
Yeah, I think that's right. I think almost looking at Wemby as more of an off the ball guard type because you saw, like, him get into the playmaking flow. Eventually it clicked in a little bit later that he had six assists in this game. But, like, if you're trying to weaponize his pitch passing and if you're anticipating that level of physicality and them being so staunch at the basket, like, are you, like, looking more in advance in the same way that Caruso knew when the zone came? It's like you were already a step ahead there. I wonder if Wemby can be looking to weaponize his passing more because he is so dangerous with that as well. It just takes him a little bit more to get into that mode.
- [32:11]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. And I think the other thing is, like, the defensive glass has to be a huge point of emphasis for the Spurs. If you, if you want to think about, like, where the margins in this game stretched or changed from game one, Wemby shot profile, what Shea was able to do off the dribble. And then also just like the volume game of the Thunder getting shots like they were again successful in creating turnovers and then the offensive rebounding margin. So in game one, the spurs were rebounding 36% of their own misses. Oklahoma City, 19% of their own misses. Game two, dead even, 37% apiece. And you have to keep Isaiah and Shine off the glass. Easier said than done. You have to keep some of these, like, hustlers who are coming in from the perimeter. Your Crusoe, Lou Dort, Cason, Wallace types off the glass as well. Like, there's just so many people for OKC who are just scooping up opportunities based on the fact that your defense was a little scrambled, it was a little stressed out. And that's the kind of thing you can clean up, I think, with a little bit of focus and a little bit of tape.
- [33:06]
Justin Varior
I do think clean is the right word. I just felt like the Thunder played a particularly sharp game in this scenario. And I mean, you expect that considering the circumstances. But like, I just Castle, if he's just like, cutting these turnovers in half, like, I think this is a completely different ball game. I just don't know how to take his mode out of him in order to like restrain him more. I don't know if it means taking the ball out of his hands more and getting more in situations where he's creating off the catch and more of as a secondary option.
- [33:33]
Rob Mahoney
But then who's dribbling the ball? Like this is the problem. Like he, I think he has to be this at this point. He just has to not being like committing historical levels of turnovers in the process. And believe it or not, based on these first two games, Stefan Castle does have it in him to not turn the ball over nine or ten times.
- [33:51]
Justin Varior
Yeah. If you're Isaiah Hartenstein's agent, have you already logged like multiple calls to Sam Presti being like, listen, we know we have the option, but like, come on, like, we need, we need the five year extension at this point because you're not getting this from anywhere else.
- [34:06]
Rob Mahoney
You think the Thunder don't know how important Isaiah Hartenstein is? You think they don't know how good he is, is.
- [34:11]
Justin Varior
Well, we've talked around this in the past a bunch where it's just like they gotta cut somewhere, right? Like, they cannot roster all these guys forever or even past this playoff run. Hartenstein makes the most sense if only because like he has the team option. He was already paid so much to begin with. He's super valuable to anyone else around the league. I think like we expected this to be a balloon payment. Perhaps he'd go down to something a little bit more reasonable either with the Thunder or somebody else. Like, I don't know why you can't just keep like doing this over and over again, keep getting those balloon payments from other teams and just like be a journeyman to, to build a stability in your front court. But just like at a certain point, you got to move on to the next wave because you can't roster these guys sort of is just not playing like they have him. They could draft another guy. They have all these picks where they can't even draft all of them because they don't have the roster spots. It's just like, it's tough. But this is the, this is the trade off. Like, he means so much to them and he's so integral to the particular nuances that they need from that specific role.
- [35:08]
Rob Mahoney
That's the thing. I, I, I think the larger idea of the Thunder having to cut somewhere is inevitable. Right. They're going to have to make concessions, they're going have to trade away Multiple picks or players to consolidate. Like they're just not going to be able to have room for everybody. But the foregone conclusion that at some point they're just going to hand, like lose Isaiah Hart in shining for agency and make Chet their full time five. I think Chet is ready for a lot of that, but for a series like this one, which is the time you really need him to be ready for it, clearly not quite up to it for, you know, 40 minutes of that kind of, that kind of heat that's. That's a lot to put on anybody. I think we also be realistic now about this is two straight years of J Dub having like recurring ongoing unrelated injuries. Like, I'm not saying it's a chronic thing, but he's picking up a lot of stuff as he goes. And that's the flexibility piece of your team that allows you to play big and small. Chet is the other flexibility piece of your team that allows you to play big and small. But you can't do that if you don't have another good center. And J Will is probably like the best third string center in the entire league. Like very overqualified for the role. He plays a really good player. But you're not just going to be able to plug J Will into a lineup and get everything you were getting from Isaiah Hardenstein like this. I think the physicality, the size, the weird combination of like high post playmaking and touch on that floater. It's just a really nice combination of stuff that you're getting that you're not going to replace easily.
- [36:31]
Justin Varior
It is funny watching the like the push shovel shot that he has going, like how much more he needs to push. I know arc higher in order to just get it over Wemby. Unbelievable. This felt like.
- [36:41]
Rob Mahoney
It felt like in between games one and two, some Thunder assistant had like a giant, you know, like foam wand. It was just like trying to emulate the reach of Victor Webman Yama to get that, that arc just right. And you know what? It paid off. Congratulations to them.
- [36:55]
Justin Varior
I'm sure they have all the spreadsheets. There was that recent article where like Hartenstein was getting interviewed and he's like, oh, a ball wasn't on a rack. And he's like, by the end of this interview it's going to be back. And sure enough, like a couple of minutes go by and someone comes up, picks the ball, puts it on the rack. Because that's the Thunder culture. Do you feel like you have a handle on where this series will go from here? Like, did the first two games clarify anything for you to make? Like, any reasonable prediction or outlook on this one?
- [37:21]
Rob Mahoney
I was hoping to come out of game two with that, but I feel like the injuries have made it cloudier than ever. Do you feel certain of literally anything in life, but even in this series?
- [37:30]
Justin Varior
Definitely not in life.
- [37:31]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [37:31]
Justin Varior
But one thing I had been saying going into this is I felt like the Thunder needed J Dub in order to win this. I do think that's unfortunately coming to bear. I really hope he's okay. This is. This is fantastic.
- [37:43]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [37:44]
Justin Varior
This is unbelievable. Like, I. I always say that, like. Like just saying that we need seven games of something. The lowest form of NBA discourse. It's like. It's. It's like the Remember when from the Sopranos.
- [37:55]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [37:56]
Justin Varior
Reference that. That you don't get.
- [37:57]
Rob Mahoney
I don't.
- [38:00]
Justin Varior
Thanks for playing along. But. Holy. This is like. This is incredible. Like, I can't remember the last time. Like, every single game. You're looking forward to it. Pins and needle on every single possessions. This is real. Like, no skips. Like, can't miss a second.
- [38:15]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [38:15]
Justin Varior
And this is, like, this is living up to everything we expected to be
- [38:19]
Rob Mahoney
this intense and this high level in terms of the play. And also have both of the first two games feel so different from one another. There just aren't that many teams who are capable of that kind of variation. Like, you have these incredible tactical responses. You have rotation shifts from both teams. You have the MVP changing the way he's navigating one of the greatest challenges he's seen in his playoff career to this point. This is the shit we live for. This is exactly what we want. I honestly don't think it's going to be entirely compromised even by the injuries we've seen so far. Like, I'm with you. Without J Dub, it's a much harder proposition for the Thunder to win. All the more reason why they absolutely had to get this one. If they lost J dub and went down 02. That's the series. That's probably it right there. But keeping a pulse, finding enough to work. Shay getting right. Isaiah Hardenstein proving he could hang in this series. There's all of these little momentum indicators that I think are still saying this is probably a Thunder series, but it's always easier said than done when Wemby and the spurs are involved.
- [39:21]
Justin Varior
Yeah. All right. Isaiah is going to cut up some orange slices for us. We're going to get some electrolytes flowing again, and then we'll be back and talk about the east the Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA playoffs are here and everything's on the line. Every possession matters. Every bucket swings the game and tonight is your shot to boost your bet. That's right, all customers get a profit boost tonight. So when the moment hits, your win hits bigger and FanDuel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. Lock in your bets, boost your odds and make the playoffs. Pay off with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get started. FanDuel play your game 21 select states or 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut all right, so we're recording this what about like 24 hours since the game one of of Knicks and Cavs? Do you think that Kenny Atkinson still doesn't think he should have switched out James Harden after getting roasted like for what was that, like 10 minutes of game time straight?
- [40:39]
Rob Mahoney
I think he just sat up all night like almost calling timeout but then stopping short every single time somehow.
- [40:45]
Justin Varior
Do you think, do you actually believe him when he was saying that or do you think he was just trying to save face because he knew that like that would get back to James Harden? It seems like he's taking considered effort to make sure that Harden like being like allowing him into the coaching huddle and and just like preparing him because of they have to sign him to a new extension coming up soon. Yeah, like I have to imagine that was messaging more than what he actually believed because he was getting absolutely flambed.
- [41:09]
Rob Mahoney
I'm really glad you brought this up. Everyone responds to coaches and press conferences as if they are speaking truth to like their word. That is not the purpose of that place. Like they can say things to their team all the time. Why would they go up there in front of everybody and say what they actually think? That's not the way it works.
- [41:26]
Justin Varior
I think you're right. Most of the time, 95% of the time. The problem is on the flip side of that in the Knicks presser Mike Brown was saying things like this.
- [41:36]
Rob Mahoney
It's true.
- [41:37]
Justin Varior
When I was in Golden State and we played Houston, we counted James Harden's dribbles. We told our guys he's dribbling close to a thousand times a game. Keep picking him up full court and making him dribble at the end of the game, it would wear him down. Mike, you just gave it all away. What are you doing, brother?
- [41:53]
Rob Mahoney
But again, it's not like we don't know that.
- [41:55]
Justin Varior
Right? Right. And if anybody who watched that game or watched, like, even the first couple possessions of Jalen Brunson going to work, work, I remember there's like a very critical moment. And if you watch just the highlights of Brunson, like, going to work in that end of the game, like, they go up 8, it's like, oh, that's enough of a buffer where you could just like stem the tide and like go from there. And the captains, they'll win this. Yeah, they kept going for it over and over again. It's just like it was. It was. Honestly, it's tough to watch after you watch it.
- [42:21]
Rob Mahoney
It was. It was like, I can't remember the last time we saw a player of James Harden's stature. Like, this is a Hall of Famer, right? This is like an incredibly accomplished guy, you know, an mvp, you know, clearly. And he's just being embarrassed in every possible way. Like, it was like, if at first it was Jalen Brunson, but then it kept getting worse, then it was like OG and a nobe driving on him. It was like, you know, Mikhail Bridges getting opportunities. His miscommunication, I believe, also leading to landry Sham at 3, if I'm not mistaken. Just so many James Harden oriented mistakes. But to circle back to the Kenny Atkinson part of that, I. I do want to defend Atkinson a little bit because this is. This is a real, like, you could have lost the war right here kind of moment. The Cavs played really well in this game. James Harden was a functional part of that for the vast majority of it, and then was picked on relentlessly defensively. And yes, Atkinson should have called timeout. I think the timeout is more important than the idea of pulling him. It was like, you need to call timeout. So you need to get some pre switching organized in terms of what your team is doing, some scramming out of those situations where you have defenders who are kind of conveniently nearby who can jettison Harden from that situation. And frankly, you need to have a pep talk with James Harden about, like, not just conceding this so easily, like, who he. Him and any other player he was involved with in those screens. Like they were just walking through and giving it up. And James Harden's like, I got this. As he gets roasted 10 consecutive times. You can't do that. But I also don't think you can bench James Harden in game one for really obvious reasons. And you also can't bench James Harden, as you noted, when you're trying to make him a long term part of your team or at least a medium term part of your team for the next like two or three years.
- [44:01]
Justin Varior
I have a lot of thoughts about this. In usual circumstances I tend to like coaches who let teams just play through it. Especially if like you have a more veteran laden team and a team that's better at improvising on the fly, which like that kind of was the superpower of the Cavs offense last year that they could just do so much kind of in the midst and the flow of their offense. Obviously Harden's a new player to all that, but clearly like he has that mode in him and so I don't hate it most of the time. There's that Julian Schimpani like last second shot that people were criticizing. I was like, he got a good look and he's a good three point shooter. Like these things just happen and I don't mind it most of the time. The big two things that stuck out to me here was one, you're coming off 14 playoff games in the previous two series like this team was clearly tired and the fact that they weren't effective offensively to stop anything like to, to counterbalance any of these defensive errors with any sort of offense would have won them the game. Like you just need to give these guys a blow. Hardening in particular, like that's a problem in and of itself. The other thing is like this is a team, the Cavs, that's in the second apron presumably in order to build themselves for this specific moment. And I constantly find myself in the situation with Cleveland where it's like they don't have the necessary piece for the necessity necessary situation that they're in. And so you would want to say like Kean Ellis, can he give him a look? But obviously Atkinson for whatever reason just doesn't want to play him in most circumstances. All the other wing options that they tend to have in order to replace James Harden in this situation, I don't know if it's like appreciably better. Like maybe Max Drew could have done better, but like you're, you're. When you put one in, you're developing a hole elsewhere that and they were just seeking out the switches to begin with. I'm feeling for a team that's built so deep as them in air quotes deep. I constantly wonder like, why they don't have the right component for the right situation. This was one of those times.
- [45:52]
Rob Mahoney
I agree with you. I also don't know how many teams do have the right component for this situation. Like Jalen Brunson. Yeah. Who out there feels great about, like, we're going to put our weakest defender in the lineup is going to be targeted by Jalen Brunson. It's not going to go great for pretty much any team out there. Like, this is what Jalen Brunson does. This is what the Knicks do. The fact that they have so many guys who can work functionally as screeners is one of the most devastating parts of their offense. Like, you can use OG in that spot. You can use Mikhail Bridges picking and popping. Cat obviously has a natural pick and roll chemistry with Brunson. There's just a lot you can do. And so you're going to be kind of a little screwed or at least behind the eight ball anytime you're in the clutch against the Knicks. That's just part of the enterprise of playing them. I just think you have to try a little harder. I think even if you. Even if you had said, we're going to pull James Harden, which I would not advocate, you do, but if you did, and put Sam Merrill out there instead, I can't remember if he's on the floor for how much of that stretch. But, like, say he's the defender who's being targeted. I just trust that Sam Merrill is going to at least try, that he's at least going to try to not fall into that switch. And that's the bare minimum of what you're asking. I. I say all of this with the knowledge and understanding that actually, that James Harden did well defensively in other parts of the game, doing other stuff, like Cat tried to post him up and failed. Like, like, you know, tried to turn and ended up turning the ball over. Because Harden is so stout and because he can prevent you from getting to your spots inside. It just can't be like this. It really just can't.
- [47:16]
Justin Varior
I mean, that's his advantage, is that he is big and physical and he could actually switch on to. I mean, the Rockets use that to great effect. It's just he had several moments. Like, Brunson had a couple, like, just, like, amazing plays. And I'll just stop here. Say, like, I typically blanch at times watching Brunson because he's one of these technicians who is typically using the threat of, like, going to the line to his advantage. And sometimes it's like things could get into grifting. It's just not my style of basketball. This was like pure ballet out there. Like, he was just having an absolute heater for the ages. And just like, watching him, like, put Harden into a spin cycle was something to behold. But there were certain times where Harden was just glitching, like, controller style. Like one of those famous plays that gets brought up time and time again about his defense. Like, he was just flat footed. A lot of times he would reach and Brunson was off. It's just like there were a lot of just embarrassing moments for somebody. Just like a basketball player in that position. Yeah, I get like, his history and, like his status in the league, and you don't want to, like, affect that. They had to do something. Like, you just had to do anything. And the problem is going forward, like, so much went well for the Cavs in that game. I wonder if this is the type of thing like, you just cannot come over because it was one of the best comebacks in Knicks history, their vaunted
- [48:29]
Rob Mahoney
history in recent playoff history.
- [48:31]
Justin Varior
One of the worst meltdowns I can remember. It's just like those type of things, man, psychologically, are tough to get over.
- [48:37]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, just from the perspective of the Cavs had to have the kind of series in which they, you know, they didn't have to pitch perfect games all the way through, but they had to compete and perform at an incredibly high level to stick with the Knicks every step of the way. New York shot for absolute shit for like the first quarter and a half of this game. Like, that's not going to happen every night. They've been one of the hottest shooting teams in the playoffs. I don't think that's due for a regression to the mean. Maybe this was the extent of that regression, was like, you know, a one quarter of cold shooting, and then we're right back to business as usual with all of these guys nailing jumpers. This was the chance. Like, these are the kinds of games that hang over you as a team, both psychologically but also just in the numbers game. Like, you just really, really needed this one. If you were Cleveland, and we rightly focus on Harden getting picked on defensively and what the Cavs were and weren't doing to. To accommodate that. They also just only scored three points in overtime. And that was. I think that was the hardest part of watching them, was either James Harden would just be completely not involved in the play. Then you're asking, why is he on the floor at all? If he's just going to get killed on one end and not contribute on the other, or he would be trying to do way too much with the ball. And their office just got bogged down to its barest and least functional elements at the point in the game where everyone was running on fumes and they just didn't have anything left to contribute.
- [49:52]
Justin Varior
That's what I'm worried about most on the Cavs. Like, again, you played so many games the previous two series, and the last thing you want to see is an overtime game where you let that slip away. Yeah. Having said that, if you're Kenny Atkinson, you got the hair gel going. You just put a big old glop in there and just didn't give a shit about what it looked like. That's rude. I mean, he's one of the nicest coaches out there. Like, he will take your question and really put some thought to it. I really appreciate it. But, like, he looks like he's. He's, like, going through it every time he steps out.
- [50:22]
Rob Mahoney
So do they all. You're like, where.
- [50:24]
Justin Varior
Who.
- [50:24]
Rob Mahoney
Who is the coach who looks, like, super well adjusted at all times?
- [50:28]
Justin Varior
I feel like Mitch Johnson is just, like, really calm, cool, and collected. Well, he's.
- [50:32]
Rob Mahoney
He's new to this, you know?
- [50:33]
Justin Varior
Like, that's true.
- [50:35]
Rob Mahoney
Look at Steve Kerr when he took that job versus is now. You know, like, he has aged three lifetimes in that stretch.
- [50:41]
Justin Varior
Did you ever have a hair gel moment?
- [50:43]
Rob Mahoney
Of course.
- [50:44]
Justin Varior
Did you ever use it? Okay.
- [50:46]
Rob Mahoney
I lived in the early 2000s. I was. No, I was in middle school. We were just spiking it straight up, you know?
- [50:51]
Justin Varior
Yeah.
- [50:52]
Rob Mahoney
And then maybe. Maybe a little swoop at a certain point.
- [50:54]
Justin Varior
Oh. Like a little, like, spiky front thingy.
- [50:56]
Rob Mahoney
Spiky front. But, I mean, a little. A little less preppy than that for me personally, but I can't. I can't say I wasn't an associate hairwise.
- [51:06]
Justin Varior
Okay, so what are you looking at going into this next game? Do you think there's anything you could build on if you're actually going to do something this time? Like, what would you be doing?
- [51:17]
Rob Mahoney
I think the weirdest thing about this hardened conversation is it's not like the Knicks are going to come out and do that again from the very first possession of the game. Like, I think that's the kind of thing you do. Kind of keep behind glass for when you need it. Unfortunately, I don't think the Knicks are going to need it all the time in this series for the Cavs. Like, I think New York's offense is going to be more functional. I think over the course of the game. Even before they started targeting Harden, they just tapped into some better flow and some better rhythm and that was what really catalyzed their production overall. But I'm just still really worried about this game. Even when Cleveland played, I thought one of their better defensive halves, if not three quarters that I've seen from them in a long time. I just think it might not be enough stuff.
- [51:58]
Justin Varior
Especially when you look at Cat just kind of reverting back to old school Cat.
- [52:03]
Rob Mahoney
That was hard.
- [52:04]
Justin Varior
The dumb ass fouls just like start rolling and all of a sudden it seems like he's in his tailspin. Yeah, you have to imagine like he would pull himself out of that going forward and that you probably squandered that opportunity. I do look at Josh Hart and wonder like if this just isn't his particular series and if they're going to diminish his role, then Landry Shammit steps up. We'll see if it's going to be Shaman again, but if Shame it's going to be out there, especially in critical moments. That's just two very small guards that you can target with your two offensive maestros out there. Like there's going to be spots to give it back to them. I just wonder like, do they have it in them in order to put that push together in order to do so. But like there's spots, there's opportunities. They were up big on this game until everything just completely collapsed.
- [52:46]
Rob Mahoney
I do think Hard plays less and less of a role as it goes and he, he seems like to acknowledge some of the reality of that already. That to me was the biggest contributor to their flow. It was just like as soon as he came out of the game, their spacing fucking unlocked and a lot of that is. Shamet is a particularly good shooter, but even when Deuce McBride was out there wasn't scoring, but just the threat of him as an actual shooter and someone you have to respect I thought opened up a lot of things for New York. So I would say the size is an issue, particularly with Donovan Mitchell and James Harden. Two like big bodied, strong guards, even if they aren't super, super tall but can work through guys. But Shaman is targetable because of his height but like pesky and involved and like will take charges. Like he will bait you into some offensive fouls if you do want to try to hunt him down. So. And Deuce is like really stocky and also annoying in his own way to try to like, score against. They're small, but they're not as easy a target as you might think. Even Brunson, like, Brunson will draw three charges in a game like, it's nothing.
- [53:46]
Justin Varior
Yeah. I've started to hear from spurs fans because especially after the game one, I think everyone was riding high, but after they saw the Knicks win, they're getting flashbacks to the Cup. Like, I. I think, like, if us from afar, like, I think the spurs will win that series. But, like, I think spurs fans, like, have some PTSD and they don't want to see the coming out of that.
- [54:08]
Rob Mahoney
Can you blame them?
- [54:09]
Justin Varior
No. I mean, they're seemingly the team of destiny out of these, and when they have it right, you see it snowball the way it did.
- [54:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [54:16]
Justin Varior
They just have so much going for them, and they have this sort of size that I think would give fits to either team coming out of the West. I do think the west ultimately will probably be the de facto championship. I think whoever is coming out of there is going to win it. But, like, Knicks have some stuff to them, you know, they clearly do.
- [54:32]
Rob Mahoney
And you're right about the team of destiny bit. This. This win especially is like fodder for the championship dvd. Like, commemorative. Like, you can see. See this part of the narrative taking place as they make a run to the finals.
- [54:47]
Justin Varior
Remember when John SN Starks almost blocked Evan Mobley even though he wasn't playing in the game?
- [54:52]
Rob Mahoney
You're telling me you're going to forget that sometime?
- [54:54]
Justin Varior
I definitely will not.
- [54:55]
Rob Mahoney
It's going to be etched in there forever. But I think, yeah, I. I agree with you about, overall, the west does feel like the de facto finals. I also thought, even though these games have all been highly entertaining, this is tremendous conference finals basketball. If you're going to sit there and pretend even after the Knicks come back, that these games are, like, qualitatively the same in terms of what's happening in the east and the West. I just, like, don't agree with you on basically any level. Like, they're close, they're competitive. But there were parts of this Eastern Conference finals game where it was like, these teams are trading mistakes. And I just never really get the sense of that with. With Spurs, Thunder, even when Stefan Castle is committing, like, nine turnovers.
- [55:36]
Justin Varior
Listen, we convinced ourselves that Blazer spurs was like a real clash of the titans going on there.
- [55:41]
Rob Mahoney
Like, did we?
- [55:43]
Justin Varior
I did. This is just. It's a different sport. Like, what the Thunder and Spurs are doing. It's just. Look, it's completely different. It's on the level of like everything you see in documentaries and all of like the Titans going back and forth at each other. It's amazing. But like, this other series, like, lived up to it in game one. So we're spoiled, Rob, with these conference finals.
- [56:03]
Rob Mahoney
When was the last time we ate this good like this? I know the ratings were constantly getting like, oh, this is a high, high watermark for, you know, these various streaming services that are involved now. But like, this feels like a peak of recent NBA interest in terms of, like, seeing Wemby unlocking game one and then seeing the Thunder respond in Game two in this incredible Knicks comeback in Game one. But it also just feels like a kind of a tipping point to a different version of the NBA that we're about to see for the first time. And there's a lot of familiar characters and I'm sure there's plenty of, plenty of fixtures of the last era of NBA basketball who are going to have their things to say about where the game is going. But to feel like we are shifting into something almost completely new is a really energizing feeling for the league and for, for people like us watching it. And I just can't wait to see if this is the ground floor of it. Like, where do these teams go from here? Where do the teams that try to challenge the spurs and the Thunder and the Knicks and the Cavs go from here? Like this. We're unlocking something really, really fun.
- [57:01]
Justin Varior
Yes, we're on the verge, on the precipice, if you will, of something new and exciting. But it's not the new era of basketball. It's the off season. Wheel of Destiny, my friend. We're going to break that out right after this episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever find yourself scrambling to grab that special something for a last minute party, a spontaneous date, or even that impromptu game night at home? That's when prime same day delivery swoops in. That essential item you thought you'd missed delivered, the plan saved, the win secured. Because with prime same game delivery, you can grab it and go before the moment passes you by same name delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas. Terms apply. All right, we're going to delay the wheel just slightly. In fact, we probably don't even have time to be doing the wheel because we're already about an hour into this podcast, even though it's just the two of us. But we're going to do the wheel. It Might just be one spin, but we'll do it. But first we need to talk about Jason Kidd being fired from the Mavericks. That's not on the wheel because we needed to ensure that we talked about it.
- [58:08]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [58:09]
Justin Varior
I just keep feeling like the moves that the Mavs have made post Luca trademark, they've made ultimately the right decisions, but I'm not going to give them a pat on the back because it seems like the process to get there was more out of fear of, like, your business losing value than it was, like, you really got it right this time. It just seems like Dumont turned the franchise over to Jerry. Like, classic. Like, we're going to hire the right guys. And like, credit to you, you hire, you overpaid. Like a guy who's had tremendous success in this league. And then he went, why do we
- [58:42]
Rob Mahoney
care how much he gets paid? Like, if you hire a good person, that's a. That's probably a good decision, right?
- [58:47]
Justin Varior
No, but I guess I'm just saying, like, he just went out and made sure to get the top guy no matter what, and not dealing with any sort of the particulars of it. And then that guy went, was like, I don't want this coach that you overpaid previously, including last off season, in order to keep him away from the Knicks. And so, like, clearly you liked Kid to the point where, like, there were reports that, that Dumont was even considering bringing him into the front office to lead this whole thing. But Ojeri comes in, Kid goes out, and here we are with a brand new fresh start. So all's well that ends well, I guess.
- [59:21]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, this. Look, this is a good decision. I just think one of the most important things that the Mavs can have right now after a season where they basically had like, two co general managers after their other one was run off in disgrace, is organizational clarity. Like, I. I hesitate to give Patrick Dumont credit for basically anything at this point, but after the colossal fuck up of trading Luka Doncic in the first place, throwing up your hands and saying, I'm going to hire somebody who is wholly qualified to run this team and let them run it on their terms does seem like a pretty smart thing to do. Jason Kidd is like a good coach, but there are multiple kinds of NBA coaches. Like, there are the guys who just want to show up and sleep in their office and grind tape and just like, I'm going to work out 50 different pick and roll counters for my team, and that's literally all I want to do. And then there are the coaches who Treat literally everything they do as an exercise to consolidate power.
- [60:15]
Justin Varior
And I think you orchestrate a mutiny. Yeah.
- [60:18]
Rob Mahoney
You know, you can fill in the gaps on which one you think Jason Kidd is. So I think jettisoning him from the team at this point makes sense. Transitioning a lot of things within the organization right now makes sense. Is it fair to all of those people involved? Maybe, maybe not. I think it's probably more fair to Kid than most because that dude was heavily involved in everything that happened to this point, including trading Luka Doncic. And so he's going to collect his checks, he's going to be well compensated to go do whatever it is he wants to do next. I also think treating like you can't keep chasing the sunk cost of a playoff version of the Mavs that doesn't exist anymore. And so Masai getting rid of Kid is part of that, but also him coming out his press conference and saying like, we are going to make all of our decisions based on the future, based on the fact that we have this 19 year old generational player. Everything we do is oriented around that. That's the encouraging part.
- [61:12]
Justin Varior
Yes. I think if you kept Kidd around, there would still be this toggling between what happened before and trying to officially turn the page. I think even hiring Mike Schmitz as your GM was kind of a signal to this before we got the Kid firing. Because, like Schmidt, this whole thing is like his boots on the ground scouting expertise. He's been in like really in the dirt of like going abroad and everything else for so many years. Obviously he was up here in Portland
- [61:37]
Rob Mahoney
for a couple of years. I got to.
- [61:38]
Justin Varior
I knew him before that, but I obviously got to know him up here. Like, it seems like they are very much committed to just like turning the page and starting from scratch with Cooper flag. And I think that's the right move. Like, I think Kyrie Irving becomes a big old question mark for this team. There's obviously other pieces that I think could be helpful to other contenders. Gafford for one, BJ Washington perhaps in addition to him. But like, I think everyone was on the same page as soon as they got Cooper, that the future was the North Star.
- [62:06]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [62:07]
Justin Varior
And to see organizational alignment behind it, I think just gives clarity. Not only which is important to like every fan base, but I think it's especially important in Dallas where just things have just been an upheaval since the Luka trade. Just like having some sort of direction to know where you're going to know that like, oh, we're not chasing the playoffs with AD and Kyrie and rookie year Cooper. I have to imagine that Mavs fans feel pretty, like, content, if not good about everything that got them.
- [62:33]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I mean, if you want to look at the before and after of you were just in the NBA Finals and now you're here, it's not great scratch, but to zoom out and be like, okay, all of those things have happened, but the team is in a position now where you. You probably trust the track record of the guy who is now running basketball operations for the team. You trust a lot of the rank and file. You trust the direction that the team is moving in and that it is one consistent direction based on all of those people's agreement. That's just more than they could have asked for a year ago, clearly, because the Mavs were not feeling very content to do all those things at once. So necessary steps. It's not. It's not going to change everything overnight. Like, this is not going to be a super competitive team in the west for the near future. It's an incredibly deep conference, among other problems. But here they are actually picking a direction, hopefully actually following through on it and trying to move some of these other pieces and players along in a way that's commensurate of that.
- [63:30]
Justin Varior
Do you think that they try to move on from Kyrie next? Because at the presser, Jerry was like, well, at the very least, we want to see Cooper play with Kyrie.
- [63:38]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [63:38]
Justin Varior
And I think, like, just in terms of, like, checking the box emotionally for fans, because they've been sold this and probably been looking forward to that for a year, I think that's a good thing to do. I also think that's the right thing to do in order to establish his value and perhaps night signal to the rest of the league that we're looking to move on as soon as possible. You just lose any and all leverage you would want in that situation. But do you think, like, it would make sense, especially considering, like, all the suitors that could potentially use him, Detroit, whatever. Like, now would be a good time to do so now.
- [64:07]
Rob Mahoney
Ish. Right. Like, you know, he's. I think the issue for the Mavs more broadly with Kyrie is, like, you don't necessarily want to be giving him his next contract. And so whether that's trading him over the course of this coming season or the following on where I believe he has a player option, like, that's kind of the timetable, and the team is really in no rush to compete or do anything else during that time. It's just like, develop Cooper, bring in young talent, cultivate it together. Kyrie can be a part of that stuff. And he showed during the last competitive iteration of the Mavs that he was actually quite a good leader and communicator with the young guys, specifically, was a really good conduit for them. And so if he wants to be a part of it, I don't see that there's, like, a rush to push him out the door, and that allows you to play that kind of leverage game where he can be an important part of a certain stage of your rebuild. And then when maybe the playoffs are coming up and you're getting close to the trade deadline, and Kyrie's like, man, I actually would like to compete somewhere that could just be what's best for everybody involved.
- [65:02]
Justin Varior
Yeah. All right. Are you ready for the journey you're about to embark on? Your life will never be the same after this.
- [65:08]
Rob Mahoney
I really don't think it will, but I'm ready to learn my destiny.
- [65:11]
Justin Varior
All right, so we have a lot of time to fill coming up because obviously games are getting fewer and fewer. We're going to turn the page to the off season at a certain point. We need to fill some time and we need to check in on some of these offseason teams because a lot of things is starting to percolate. I feel like once the finals hit, like, teams just don't have anything to do with themselves in between the games. And so, like, rumors start to really start to hit the fan. So we have brought to you our latest group chat bit, the off season Wheel of Destiny.
- [65:40]
Rob Mahoney
Just in case you were concerned that this wasn't an actual physical wheel or if you're listening to this podcast versus watching it, I think you need to come see the wheel. But also see the glint in Justin's eye as he presented this. This is really your child.
- [65:52]
Justin Varior
Can I fit it on my desk? Will the camera pick up on the Full Wheel tbd. But I feel like we need a drop for this. Perhaps, like, maybe not at Nine Pacific. One of our producers can come up with something. I feel like one of those. Maybe like a gunshot. Like. Yeah, or something like that. Or like one of those things going.
- [66:13]
Rob Mahoney
Why a gunshot?
- [66:15]
Justin Varior
Well, I was thinking specifically. So I have a friend that works at the the Symphony and he brought me to because he had an extra ticket to Rick Ross backed by a symphony at the Portland Symphony.
- [66:26]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [66:27]
Justin Varior
And never. So it was the wildest performance because 1. The DJ, for whatever reason, they still use the DJ even though the Point of having a symphony is to back the songs with the actual symphony. The DJ and the drummer weren't in sync, and so the click track was like, often. So it was wild. But also he would just like get, first of all, a lot of bangers from Rick Ross. Didn't know he had that sort of catalog, but he would only do like a verse or two of his biggest songs, and all of a sudden it'd be like. And like out of nowhere the song would just stop and then he'd hit the Maybach music thing like 30 times and then just go on.
- [67:03]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, that's when you know you have a deep catalog, when you're just doing like medley versions of your hits because you have so many hits to pack in.
- [67:10]
Justin Varior
Yeah. So, yeah, a couple. A couple of weekends ago I was watching Rick Ross backed by symphony, but also a DJ and also not finishing a song, so that was cool.
- [67:19]
Rob Mahoney
I love the life you lead. I love. I love this new bit that you have concocted. I think the Wheel of Destiny will be very fruitful for us and we're
- [67:27]
Justin Varior
going to add to the wheel. So, like, one, if you have mailbag questions, you have particularly good ones. We're going to start putting them on
- [67:32]
Rob Mahoney
the wheel and you can email us ringer group chat@gmail.com. i would say the broader the better, you know, like, not something that happened in the news the week that you're sending the email. I almost want the spirit of, like, NBA Reddit off season questions of, like, if you tethered all the defenders arms together, could you circle the ball handler kind of debate? Like, that's the kind of intellectual exercise I would like us to participate in. Yes.
- [67:57]
Justin Varior
But no other references or anything to do with Reddit beyond that specific. No, no, no. So we have that. I think we talked about doing some, like, personal questions, dredging up the New York Times question for love.
- [68:10]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, right. The questions to fall in love. I mean, we. We did those with was and not Kyle. So maybe the three of us need to reconnect.
- [68:17]
Justin Varior
Oh, like a, like a whole new, like, group activity, like couples retreat or thruffle retreat.
- [68:23]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, we are, we are a true throuple. I feel like we have all of those internal dynamics between us.
- [68:29]
Justin Varior
So you have right now for this inaugural edition, just some, like, percolating off season topics. Most of them have two slots. Giannis has four, which I think we're gonna keep this going forward because Giannis is the danger zone.
- [68:42]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [68:43]
Justin Varior
It's colored in red if you can see it. I don't know. I'll just hold it now. We got the glare, whatever. But Giannis is like you. We. I just don't want to talk about it whatsoever. I don't think anybody wants to talk about it whatsoever. And so the Giannis squares are basically. You have to come up with something to say about Giannis. Yeah. So it's really like the. You land on. On free parking or what are the danger ones on Monopoly?
- [69:06]
Rob Mahoney
Well, free parking is the opposite. Free parking, at least houses. Free parking. You get all the money.
- [69:10]
Justin Varior
Right.
- [69:11]
Rob Mahoney
This is go directly to Giannis jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. But you must come up with a 30 second to a one minute original take about Giannis.
- [69:21]
Justin Varior
Exactly. Okay, so I'm gonna spin it for the first time.
- [69:23]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [69:24]
Justin Varior
Are you ready?
- [69:25]
Rob Mahoney
Have you practiced?
- [69:26]
Justin Varior
Yes, I have. Okay.
- [69:28]
Rob Mahoney
Just want to make sure.
- [69:30]
Justin Varior
Here we go.
- [69:31]
Rob Mahoney
All right.
- [69:32]
Justin Varior
No way.
- [69:32]
Rob Mahoney
Me no way. Me no way. Me no way. Me no way. Me no way. Me.
- [69:35]
Justin Varior
Oh, we got the Orlando Magic.
- [69:37]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [69:38]
Justin Varior
Who have come up in part because of Jason Kidd. So they do not have a coach. One of the few teams that has an opening right now. I also think they are interesting because I think as we get deeper and deeper into trade rumors and trade machine season, they're going to come up a lot. I think my question for you, first and foremost is do you feel good with just changing the coach or does this team need a bigger facelift considering what happened to them over the course of the season and just not getting quite far enough against the Detroit Pistons in the first round?
- [70:15]
Rob Mahoney
So if the Magic were any other team, I would say maybe you just change the coach for now and start to feel out what that change does for you and then what you need as a result of it. The only reason the Magic changed that calculus is like, they've gone into like each of the last three seasons being like, okay, we finally got our guys back. Let's like ease back into it and then we're going to figure it out. And then by mid December, somebody's injured, Something has happened. There's calamity in the lineup, like Jalen Suggs, Franz Wagner, Pala Bin Caro. Somebody is out at basically any given point in time. I don't know when the last stretch was where we saw like six contained weeks of the actual Orlando Magic. I'm almost compelled to say at this point, like, maybe you just need to make some additional roster move. Obviously you are changing the coach, but like something more significant even than that. And as Loathe As I am to even throw this out there, I wonder if the Jalen Suggs time might have run its course. We've talked about their need for just like an organization, more of an organizing ball handler for a long time. Maybe you can bring in a coach who works really well with what Suggs does, maybe not. But I feel like their needs do transcend scheme a little bit and do transcend also. Just like some of the relationships between players and coach, which seem to be pretty frayed with Jamal Mosley by the end of it.
- [71:33]
Justin Varior
I think they need something to unstick their offense consistently, and I think they could do that with just rotation shooters having more of a depth of there that they could cycle through. And hopefully, hopefully someone provides the stretch they need to so you aren't in situations where you need to start Jamal Kane and hopefully he could provide that and you could do that on the fringes. You could just do what the Heat do and kind of build these guys into guys. I just think it becomes a little bit more difficult. And also their timetable is much shorter at this point. The trouble is, in order to perhaps get a big heaping dose of that all at once, you're trading something critical from your team. And Suggs makes the most sense. I think one just seems to be the emotional balance of this team, and trying to extract that from this becomes difficult. Also the injuries, like, does he have this type of value outside of this in order to get you the type of help that you need? And so are you almost like backdoor forced into another big move to compound the big move he made with Desmond Bane in order to happen? I mean, Kyrie makes a lot of sense. If all of a sudden he comes on the market, I think he could be valuable there. Especially if you decide that, like, now is the time and not like the window with Paulo and Franz going into their second contracts for like the next three, four years?
- [72:44]
Rob Mahoney
But how do you even. How do you even get the Mavs on the line for a deal like that? Like, what are you dangling for someone like Kyrie?
- [72:50]
Justin Varior
I think at that point you're starting to talk about Franz and Paulo is like the. The key to that. Obviously that would be too much for just Kyrie, considering his age and his contract and all this other stuff. But, like, that's what. It gets to that point quicker than I think you would hope. So perhaps like, stasis is the. The best option. I mean, I would even be thinking about, like, what about Paulo for like the Darren Peterson pick? You know, like, if he falls to Three, perhaps, or. Yeah, if there's anything that happens there that could be interesting to me. Just some sort of like, offensive ball handler, not quite an engine who will step on Paolo, but you could basically timeshare it it that way. Like if it's Franz or Apollo, right? Yeah, like something to split that up and make the team a little bit more conventional in ways that I think would benefit Paulo in particular.
- [73:39]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. Well, let me throw this out there. Do you think there's a scenario where you could trade Anthony Black for such a player?
- [73:46]
Justin Varior
Yes, but I also love Anthony Black.
- [73:49]
Rob Mahoney
I do too. But he's very much not the kind of guard who does those things. Like, he does a lot for them. And his versatility and just his development over the course of last season, remarkable stuff, I think would be really hard for the Magic having invested him to like, punt now that he's starting to put things together. But this is kind of the Suggs Black quandary in a nutshell is like, do you trade these guys who do these things that are really critical to the identity and the spirit and the culture of your team for somebody who, if you're trading Suggs, would probably just be a worse player that you're getting in return? Like a worse but healthier and more consistent player might be kind of like the zone you're aiming for. Or for Anthony Black, somebody who is frankly, less dynamic in return, but a little bit more of a table setting point guard who could organize everything around him. Are those stylistic shifts enough to at least kind of get you on the line?
- [74:38]
Justin Varior
I guess this is where you bring us back to the coaching hire too, and someone like Kid, if not Kid himself. Like, does someone a little bit more creative, a little bit more inventive, Is he able to tap into some of the unique qualities of Apollo, get him to buy into being more of a big creator rather than a creator who is big?
- [74:57]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [74:57]
Justin Varior
Like, is there anyone that can perhaps unlock what this existing roster has?
- [75:04]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, Kid has done some of that. Like, you want to give him the appropriate credit in terms of empowering Giannis in a certain way as a ball handler to be like his most downhill, aggressive self. To finding versions and flexible versions of the Mavs offense that unlocks, like, layers of action beyond just Luka Doncic dominating the ball. Like, there was a real nuance to the best versions of the Mavs. I just like the idea of Jason Kidd when someone like Billy Donovan is on the market. Maybe Billy Donovan doesn't want that job, but if you are going to keep Jalen Suggs, for example, bring in like give me Billy Donovan and give him a chance to recreate that magical 15 game sample of the Chicago Bulls where they're running and gunning and flying, forcing, like creating all this havoc. Like that's a version of a team that Jason's the Jalen Suggs is the point guard. Makes sense for. And you still have to channel a lot in the half court. That that may not be what Magic fans want to hear. Like we're gonna have to figure out the half court stuff later. Has historically not worked very well for this group. But I don't know. Like, Jason Kidd is the master tactician of a half court offense. Also hasn't necessarily been his strongest suit every step of the way.
- [76:10]
Justin Varior
Right. Then if you're the one hiring him, then you have to watch out for for your job in two years.
- [76:14]
Rob Mahoney
Simply wouldn't be me.
- [76:15]
Justin Varior
Yeah, I'm having fun with the wheel. Do we want to take another spin?
- [76:20]
Rob Mahoney
Do you want to take one now or do you want to save them for later?
- [76:22]
Justin Varior
That's the only question I can come up with more. Let's take another spin.
- [76:25]
Rob Mahoney
All right. Let's take another spin with just better not be honest.
- [76:30]
Justin Varior
Yeah. Oh, the Timberwolves.
- [76:34]
Rob Mahoney
Okay. This might be Giannis.
- [76:37]
Justin Varior
Might be. That was the trouble with the honest square is that it does relate to
- [76:42]
Rob Mahoney
a lot of he's all the other squares.
- [76:44]
Justin Varior
Well, it also circles back to Kyrie too. I think there was some scuttle butt from unverified sources that perhaps like Anthony Edwards would like a little Kyrie action to complement what he's going. I think he makes a lot of sense there.
- [76:57]
Rob Mahoney
He'd be awesome.
- [76:57]
Justin Varior
And so I think the overarching question with the Wolves right now is do you keep pushing forward despite hitting your head on precise haps the ceiling of this team. We can kind of go back and forth on that. Or is there any way to take a step back, to take a step forward in order to make sure, like it has a longer Runway than just the next year or two.
- [77:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Well. So taking a step back, what exactly does that entail? We've, you know, Julius Randall's name has been out there for understandable reason. Are we talking about something as dramatic as also or instead trading Rudy Gobert? Like, is that on the table?
- [77:30]
Justin Varior
Do you think if I was them? No, because I think you have so much good going for you right now. It would really be hard to unspool it. I see the logic in doing so, especially because you kind of went pick Bankrupt going for Dillingham and obviously trying to get Gobert in the first place, that perhaps recouping some of the draft capital could set you up going forward to make other moves. It just gives you, as we say in the NBA, optionality in order to figure things out down the road in a way that right now they're really kind of bound to what they have. But I do think a Kyrie kind of splits the baby, where it's just like, you have so much there. And, like, maybe a lot of Wolves fans are feeling a little upset after, like, getting to this far in the playoffs yet again. I don't know. There's just, like, this is a good team, and in the right circumstances, I think it still just needs, like, a shot in the arm in order to get a little farther. I could see also, like, malaise setting in because you see the spurs and the Thunder, like, holy. For the next decade, this is what we're gonna have to deal with. But, like, we've seen windows just open. The PA Happened with the Pacers last year, where it's like, everything just hits right. You're the team that's, like, catching fire and, like, maybe J. The J Dub injury happens. Maybe Wemby's hurt one year, and all of a sudden you're the top dog again. I would give at least another go with it if I could have someone offensively to compliment Edwards in the way that he's needed for the past couple years.
- [78:50]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. In terms of who you would want in that spot, Kyrie is a pretty fucking awesome version of that player, I would say, in a couple of different critical ways. One, we've already seen who he can be working off another ball dominant. I mean, LeBron James and a creator. But I think Luka is the more pertinent example here is, like, you want another guard who mostly has the ball in their hands, who is mostly creating and, you know, getting kind of like five on four advantages and things like that out of the pick and roll. And then when Kyrie catches on the weak side or catches on the kickout, when someone like Ant is pressured, he's so great at, like, compactly and efficiently manufacturing a little bit of space to get a shot off. Like, it is. It is almost the exact sort of offensive skill set you want next to Ant. Because I. I've gotten with the. To the point with Edwards where I don't want somebody who is a ball dominant, like, even a great playmaker next to him. Like, I think that would be a little too. A little bit Too much of an offset in terms of what I want Ant to ultimately be like. I do want to continue to channel these instincts of who. Who he can be as a creator. And the pressure release of another guard is someone like Kyrie is someone who I think is, weirdly enough, another score first player more than it is a pass first point guard.
- [80:02]
Justin Varior
I guess the other option is just the honest nuclear option.
- [80:05]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [80:05]
Justin Varior
And it seems a little bit too soon to hit this sort of button, but as you're just, like, strolling through the contracts, you're like. And has three more years left on his deal. That's a long time, especially considering they could overpay him going forward. He's going to hit all the benchmarks in order to hit supermaxes going forward and all this other stuff.
- [80:22]
Rob Mahoney
If they can get Giannis, they should get Giannis. I just don't think they can.
- [80:26]
Justin Varior
Yes, right. That's one component to it where it's just, like, you don't have the picks, so you're gonna have to make up the capital via players. And perhaps you could spin certain players for picks to other teams, but, like, you're gonna have to really, like, gut your team in order to do it. My worry would be like, and Giannis is like, an incredible duo. Like, what's left over for them to hit the ground running with? Because especially if Giannis isn't going to hit. Sign an extension. If isn't going to sign an extension, you're defining yourself to, like, a really tight window. I just don't want to do that with it. Like, I want to have him for the next 10 years in my life and, like, build more contenders around him. You're getting into the same problem that Milwaukee had with Giannis, which, like, obviously worked, but, like, is one title. I don't know. I almost wonder this as a fan. Like, do you want the one title or do you want the. Like, are you willing to accept all the weird stuff that comes after that? There's the multiple seasons kind of caught just trying to, like, wring anything out of the last of Giannis is, like, waning years with your team.
- [81:26]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, if you take one title or if you have the chance to get a title, you should probably do it. Like, I don't understand what's wrong with that, just because it got a little weird after the fact.
- [81:37]
Justin Varior
Well, I just don't think, like, one title would be the benchmark for me. Maybe for a franchise that suffered as much as, like, Milwaukee had gone through some pretty dark years.
- [81:45]
Rob Mahoney
Like the Minnesota Timberwolves, that.
- [81:48]
Justin Varior
That's different. Yeah. So maybe Minnesota is one of those teams, but, like, when everyone looks back at, like, LeBron and the Lakers and the fact, like, oh, they won the one title, everything is fine. Like, like, I set the bar more based on the player, and like, ants more of, like, a two. Like, over under is like, two titles. If you have him as your best player and you, like, like, build the right team around him. One and a half. I don't think it's just one. If I have Anthony Edwards in my building, like, I want to be a dominant player for multiple years, I think
- [82:17]
Rob Mahoney
the over under for most players is, like, 0.5. Like, if you can get a championship, you did it. Like, no one can ever take that away from you. I think the thing about Giannis and the Bucks, too, is, to me, it's less about everything that's happened since the title, which has just been a string of, like, unfortunate injuries, plus, like, the Dame thing, like, never took off in the way that they imagined it would. And then all of the kind of, like, is he going to be traded or does he want to be traded? Mess that followed that. That's all kind of what it is. It's like the years leading up to the championship were also fulfilling years. Like, they got to see Bucks fans in Milwaukee and otherwise, like, the core of an organically grown team, take steps together until they won it all. Like, that's the process you want. That's the thing that I think when you talk about these championships that don't feel the same as other ones, it's usually when, through a weird confluence of events, like, the right players come together at the right time, and all of a sudden, like, Kawhi Leonard's on your team and you win. You know, it's like, yes, Kyle Lowry is also there. Pascal Siakam's also there. Like, you have the organic elements. And that Toronto season was, like, rapturous. Sorry. In for many reasons, but it's just not the same thing as, like, building up the star of your team with its supporting cast from within over time. Like, that's the kind of thing you can't replicate. And that's the kind of thing that if you do take a swing for Giannis as the Wolves, let's be real, you would be given, like, giving away. I don't see a scenario in which the Wolves trade for giannis, and Jaden McDaniels is still on this team. I don't think he goes to Milwaukee because the Bucks have no real use for him, but he would be the exact sort of player you were citing as. Like, you got to find a third or fourth team who wants Jade McDaniels and will give up real draft capital to juice the trade.
- [83:57]
Justin Varior
I think this Giannis conversation, we can kind of button this up here. Like, I think this is the litmus test for the viability of swinging for the fences and gutting your team for one true blue in his prime superstar. Considering the context of the NBA right now, everything we're seeing with the CBA and what's to come with the picks and the flattened odds, there was actually this, this, this kind of. This report that true hoop Henry Abbott tweeted out today about the teams that have the bulk of their team that's under 25. It's all the collective minutes that under 25 players played for their team this year. And number two on that list is the Thunder. Number five on the list is the Spurs. Number one is the Magic. Number three is the Pistons. Number four is the Rockets. Obviously, things didn't go as well for them, but, like, I do think we're turning over to a of league where youth matters, like, depth matters. And so if you're the Wolves, you're right in the center of this. Do you hit the button for Giannis, try to go for, for one or two years, or do you take a step back, try to get younger players in the mix here? Because as we're seeing, like, having a
- [85:01]
Rob Mahoney
depth of young guys really matters, it does really matter. And that's where, you know, the implications of something like Dante DiVincenzo getting hurt are kind of catastrophic to the Wolves in their way. Like, because that's a player who would have been a crucial depth piece, an important shooter to round out some of these lineups that we're talking about. Where, oh, are you going to have, like, the right supporting cast if Giannis does come? Well, Dante would have been great for that, or he would have been an enticing player to dangle in some of these potential trades to reload the Wolves. And instead, not only did he miss out on some critical moments of their playoff run, but he's going to be on the mend for a long time. We'll see kind of like when he can come back and how he looks when he does. But they weren't really in a position to lose anybody or to have any caveats or to have anyone's kind of like, like value diminished over the course of these couple months. And yet here they are trying to offload Julius Randall. Here they are trying to figure out how to replace Dante. Here they are, like, you know, stretching out Mike Conley for every minute he's worth at his age. Like, I. I would say that they might need to make a more dramatic shift just because the present tense as it's constructed was good enough to make a run, but I don't think it's going to be good enough to make a run again unless something materially changes here.
- [86:11]
Justin Varior
All right, that's the Wheel of Destiny. I did it.
- [86:14]
Rob Mahoney
I feel great about it.
- [86:16]
Justin Varior
Yeah.
- [86:17]
Rob Mahoney
Do I feel great about the fact that we spun twice, didn't get Giannis, and still ended up talking about Giannis? Like, we have to find a way out of this at some point.
- [86:24]
Justin Varior
You can't say it out loud, then that's gonna jinx us going forward. We're gonna get Yanis every single time.
- [86:29]
Rob Mahoney
Now, do we take those? Do we take the wolves and the magic off of the wheel?
- [86:34]
Justin Varior
Yeah, I think so. Once you talk about them, they're off. But Yana stays on. On.
- [86:38]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [86:38]
Justin Varior
We might throw some garden updates on there as well. I've got to do the whole wheel one time. You guys are aware of it?
- [86:45]
Rob Mahoney
Just different vegetables all around.
- [86:47]
Justin Varior
Oh, man. I'm making progress, baby.
- [86:49]
Rob Mahoney
I can't wait to hear about it. But don't tell us one word until we spin it appropriately.
- [86:53]
Justin Varior
Has to be on the wheel. All right, let's wrap it there. Thank you to Victoria Valencia and Isaiah Blakely for staying up late with us. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Monday. Talk to you then. 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MERNET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 8 Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.