The View From Summer League. Plus, How Many Robs Could Take Wemby? | Group Chat

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show | Group Chat

Episode: The View From Summer League. Plus, How Many Robs Could Take Wemby?

Date: July 14, 2026
Hosts: Justin Verrier (A), Rob Mahoney (C), J. Kyle Mann (B)
(Timestamps in MM:SS format)

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers an in-depth, wide-ranging breakdown of the 2026 NBA Summer League, with a focus on the rookie class, their early performances, and broader NBA conversations about fit, expectations, and player development. The hosts also riff on NBA culture, compare generations, and tackle listener mailbag questions—most hilariously, “How many Rob Mahoneys would it take to beat Victor Wembanyama in 21?”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Summer League Vibes & Vegas Scenes (03:45–06:29)

• Kyle’s Vegas Observations:
  • People-watching tales from the Strip: “You’ll see a parent with a toddler passed out across their lap at like 3am while they're at the slots. And I'm like, interesting, interesting. Core memories being made here.” (04:07)
  • Old Vegas nightlife and surreal scenes—cover bands, Trump flags, and chaos.
• Atmosphere:
  • Smaller crowds than in previous years, possibly due to less superstar draw.
  • Still, plenty of excitement for the top draft picks.

2. Top Four Rookie Analysis (07:36–17:54)

Overall Class Excitement

• All top four rookies have flashed something significant.
• “All of the top four guys, there's been something to watch for them. I think all of them have had pretty significant moments.” (07:36)

Caleb Wilson

• Ceiling and Sensation: Set a summer league debut scoring record, then cooled off slightly, but impressed with tools and athletic “pops.”
  • “The player I was led to believe Caleb Wilson was… And then I tune in for that debut and he's hitting step back threes off the dribble, something I straight up didn't know he could do.” — Rob (11:48)
• Development Questions: Shooting is a swing skill; defensive gifts are already elite, especially verticality and rim protection.
  • “He gets to his ceiling vertically quicker than a lot of players do… He just inhales players around the rim.” — Kyle (15:41)
• Consistency/Attitude: Even when shots don’t fall, "raw energy, athleticism, defensive potential" remain elite (14:08).

Cam Boozer

• High Floor & Poise: Less flashy but ultra-effective; an 18-year-old with NBA physicality and maturity.
  • “He could be just an elite role player and that would be enough. He could be on winning teams the rest of his playing days.” — Kyle (22:53)
• Passing Chops: Advanced for his age; “able to throw a really nice on time on target ball.” (19:28)
• Star Potential: May need to develop one-on-one offensive moves to reach true star tier.

AJ DeBonsa

• Ball-Dominance & TMAC/Kobe Comps:
  • Massive, aggressive, not a “point forward” but a slashing, forceful driver.
  • “For right now, he's making all the really hard stuff look pretty easy. And that to me is enough to kind of separate him as a prospect.” — Rob (26:31)
• NBA Fit Questions: Handle still developing; will need to adjust to share time with Trey Young in D.C.
• Role Development: “The worst version of AJ is going to be just eat until his belly’s big and full… If they can bring him along slowly, like Tatum in Boston, it could be invaluable long term.” — Kyle (31:45)

Darren Peterson

• Scoring Tools & Versatility: Despite a rough Vegas debut (turnovers, physical coverages), showed flashes as a versatile scorer.
• Big-Picture Take: “He strikes me as the kind of star who even when he's at his absolute best is going to be like three, three and a half to four assists a game and not necessarily like the six, seven assists per game. And that's going to be okay if he turns into the kind of scorer he seems to be projecting as well.” — Rob (40:35)
• Jazz Backcourt Fit: Both he and Keonte George may face the “two scoring-tilted guards” challenge but are talented enough to figure it out (41:23, Kyle).

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3. Other Summer League Standouts & Struggles (44:00–59:49)

Kingston Flemings

• Surprised hosts as potentially the best guard at the event.
  • “Kingston Fleming’s ball screen acumen…made some passes that were just absurd and just very steady…I honestly wonder if I had him high enough.” — Kyle (44:59, 46:07)
  • Leadership and communication also stood out (“just like a 33-year-old point guard in a, you know, 20 year old's body,” Rob, 46:16)

LeBaron Phylon

• Intriguing presence, surprising he fell in the draft—Sixers seem thrilled.

Darius Acuff

• Underwhelming performance, mostly on defense and decision-making.
  • “He likes to have the ball in his hands a whole lot. I thought he got to spots. It’s just…knowing when to go for your own shot, knowing when to be the game manager…” — Kyle (48:38)
• Mild concern given how Summer League favors gunners. “The fact that he is not even remotely coming Close to succeeding…I am mildly concerned.” — Rob (50:05)

Yaxel Lendeborg (Warriors)

• Highly polished, fits Warriors style, played mistake-free basketball.
  • “He has a polish that even some of the second and third year guys at summer league just straight up do not have… Does he give the Warriors all the things they didn't have? Clearly not. But does he amplify the way they play?” — Rob (51:03)

Braden Buries (Bucks)

• Looked “incredible” and “a real gamer type.”

Other Notes

• Baba Miller, Caravan, Dylan Cardwell, Alan Graves, Malik Thomas & Abuko Corey received shout-outs for standout moments.
• Mara (Thunder): Project big, “speed looked like it kind of had his head spinning,” not ready to contribute yet (54:49).
• Cody Williams: Still too raw, “baby deer” stage compared to his brother Jalen.
• A.J. Mitchell, Carter Bryant, Trey Johnson noted as “too good for summer league” types.

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4. Mailbag Segment & Memorable Moments (59:54–81:39)

How Many Robs to Beat Wemby? (60:45–66:08)

• Spiraling hypothetical leads to strategies involving stacking Robs, building human walls, and "Battle of the Bastards" defense.
• “There is a diminishing return, I'm not going to lie to you, to putting a bunch of Robs out there.” — Rob (61:22)
• “It's going to take over 25 Robs to beat Victor Webanyama.” — Rob (65:55)
• Drops into a debate over which host would win one-on-one, with faux chest-thumping and banter:
  • “I'm a three level scorer, Rob. I'm just letting you know.” — Kyle (67:12)
  • “You would unfortunately lose like 11 to 2. So it's just. It's just going to be what it's going to be.” — Rob (67:24)

"Who Knows Ball": Ball Knowledge, Litmus Tests & Gatekeeping (68:57–79:52)

• Litmus tests for “knowing ball” include appreciation of “plug gap” guys (Al Horford, Ricky Rubio, OG Anunoby, Derek White, Drew Holiday, etc.).
• Rob: “You can tell what a person thinks about the world based on what they think about Hawks Al Horford.” (68:57)
• Discussion on defensively impactful/not-flashy players; Justin pushes back slightly against excessive “know ball” gatekeeping.
• Extended Shaq vs Modern NBA debate: Is Shaq being underrated by the next NBA generation? “Shaq had, like, 50, 60 pounds on Embiid…People can't process it. He's physically probably the most dominant player of all time, other than Wilt.” — Kyle (77:34)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Rob, on summer league hype: “We say all this and then I did watch that first Caleb Wilson debut and I saw God.” (10:12)
• Kyle, on NBA role players: “There are a difference between guys who can make the reads and then throw like a scorable ball... Cam was ahead on that front too.” (19:28)
• Rob, on defensive plug-and-play: “He's just like a little thing king already. And to do that in summer league where everything is just like basically which guard can get to their stuff the fastest and the least inefficiently. I salute any big who is actually good out there. And Cam Boozer's been really good.” (22:45)
• Justin, on ball discourse: “I kind of hate the, like, the barriers of entry that we put on these sorts of things. I think like a lot of sports don't have this…You don't need to prove your worth in order to have a take.” (72:24)
• Rob, on one-on-one with Kyle: “If you and I are playing. Make it. Take it, Kyle. You're cooked.” (66:38)

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Quick Hits & Lighthearted Moments

• Early banter about fights, wrestling moves ("stone cold stunner"), and schoolyard tales. (00:16–03:16)
• Group chat rapport is central—good-natured jabs, running jokes about their basketball skill, and “garden guys” branding.
• Airplane etiquette digression: “If people are like, it's my right... just be a good human and don't do it [recline].” (36:02)
• Live mailbag: appreciation for listeners who say hi at summer league: “It was really nice… It was nice to hear that. I appreciated it to everybody that did that.” — Kyle (60:07)
• Justin teases his upcoming Substack for “garden guys”—a tongue-in-cheek self-help/gardening serial. (80:21–81:37)

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Most Important Timestamps

• Summer League Scene: 03:45–06:29
• Top Four Rookies Deep Dive: 07:36–28:23
• AJ DeBonsa & Wizards Fit: 28:23–33:57
• Darren Peterson, Jazz Backcourt: 33:57–43:21
• Other Standouts: 44:00–59:49
• How Many Robs for Wemby: 60:45–66:08
• Who “Knows Ball”—Litmus Test Debate: 68:57–79:52

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Summary Conclusion

This Group Chat episode serves as a definitive, deeply engaging guide to summer league play and rookie watch, balancing serious positional/scouting insights with lively, irreverent personality. If you missed the episode, this summary captures all the vital debates, player takes, and the unique “Group Chat” culture—equal parts analysis and smartassery.

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am justinver. And joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle. Man, Kyle, no black eyes, so I assume no fights while you were in Vegas.

[B]

Now, all my trash talking about bam, luckily was on an end to end encrypted social media service, so none of it got out luckily.

[C]

But yeah, yeah, no trash talking publicly here. We would never say a negative thing about any player. We keep it to signal as God intended. Keep it amongst ourselves. Although, Justin, I have to say, maybe it's not a coincidence that just. Or that Kyle does not have a black eye. Also, you were not in Vegas. So. So, I mean, who. Who was the feud really going to be with to begin with?

[A]

Oh, I wouldn't just throw punches. I would just give him stone cold stunner. You know, one to the chest, drop them down. Have you ever been.

[C]

Justin?

[B]

3:16, baby.

[C]

Have.

[B]

Have either of you ever been in a fight, like, for real?

[C]

Absolutely not.

[A]

I got Kyle.

[C]

Come on.

[A]

I got punched once in sixth grade by Tim Barlow. Didn't have a chance to. To throw back.

[C]

Can I ask you an honest question?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Did you deserve it?

[A]

Probably.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

It was. It was over like a piece of paper. Like a paper dropped to the ground. It was someone's. And I was like, you should pick that up. You know, fighting for what's right in the world, as I typically am these days. Still, he didn't take kindly to it. And then pow, right in the kissing.

[B]

Well, you having a brother, Rob, I was just gonna. Those don't really count though. The ledger. Yeah, right. Yeah, I was. I've. I've been punched a couple times. I was always kind of skating in that realm. Like, the mouth was always ahead of the physical, like the ability to fight. Obviously, I was a big. I was a big trash talker in practice, and I went through a phase of saying the person's name. If I made a three over them, I would say their name like it was pretty obnoxious. And I would do it to the upper classman. And I remember I did it and I said, ryan. I was like, it's gonna take more than that. And he goes, what did you say? Everybody's like, holding it back. And I was like, he would have killed me. But you said stone cold stunner. And that's what triggered this for me, is because I was playing to tackle football outside, and I think I was like a freshman in high school, and there was this dude. I just didn't. I'm not. I wasn't a fighter. But it escalated And I didn't know what to do. Like, where it was like he was coming at me and I ran and basically just like took him down. And my friend said, you did a stone cold stunner on him. That was amazing. And I was like, oh, Oh. I didn't even. No, not a fighter. So shockingly, this isn't a fighting podcast.

[C]

I know.

[B]

Who knew?

[C]

People will be truly stunned to hear it.

[A]

Great, great stuff. I'm surprised that the stunner even worked in real life because I'm just like, the mechanics of it, it's literally you're just like dropping down, hoping that the chin meets the crook of the elbow and somehow that sort of blow, like does something to you. Like the mechanics of actual wrestling don't make sense to me. So I'm surprised that it got off in real life.

[C]

We gotta be glad that Ben isn't on this recording because he would be interjecting with fact checks left and right. I mean, we're clearly dragging Steve Austin's name through the mud, but here we are.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, why don't we get to the task at hand? We'll get to some mailbag questions later on. Thanks for sending those into ringergroupchatmail.com you can still send them in. And just check in on Rob throughout the course of the summer. Please ask if he ever gets out of the back room that he's stuck in right now. This liminal space.

[C]

You don't even want to see the half form desk that I'm currently sitting at. But you know, ends like needs must really. We're in the off season. These are desperate times. We got to record anywhere and everywhere we can.

[A]

All right. But we got to talk about, first and foremost, some of this hot summer league action. Kyle, you were just there. You were just there. Set us set as a scene. Like what, what was going on the, on the concourse? What was up at the, the Venetian, like where you were where you're running the tables at nights.

[B]

What's.

[A]

What, what was the scene like?

[B]

I, I'm, I'm very much a people watcher person, so that's always an element. I like to kind of keep track of the most pathetic thing that I see when I'm in Vegas. And that's just from the, you know, out away from the NBA thing, you know, setting, you know, you'll see, you know, a parent with a toddler passed out across their lap at like 3am While they're at the slots. And I'm like, interesting, interesting. Core memories. Being made here. Um, so there's that side of it

[A]

always that a social video like Kyle seeks out misery at Vegas that you

[C]

kind of, you kind of did turn that into content at. At old Vegas. We were in Fremont. Was that last year or the year before? I can't even remember. But there's some stuff happening out there.

[B]

Lord, I need to retweet that tracking shot. I did a single tracking shot where we went from the. You know, and there. It's just so surreal. Old Vegas. Do you ever go down there? I know Rob does. We went down together one time. It was like the zip lines are coming down and it's like 2am and there's the huge video board. There's a cover band. I think in the one video I took, they were, they were covering All Star by Smash Mouth. And you're. And then there was this group of people dancing with a huge Trump flag and like they're not in, like they're in thongs and you're just like, I don't, I don't really know what's going on right now. The basketball side of it though, you meant. You said the word hot. Funnily. It was incredibly hot. Like oven hot. Fart oppressive.

[D]

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[E]

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[B]

But in general, man, I mean, just a lot of excitement about the top picks and we can get into that. A lot of those dudes showed out. I mean there was, there were some turds among the first round players, but a lot of excitement about the young people. And I don't feel like the crowd was as big this year, you know, because it was kind of a Couple years there where we were all there together. It went all the way up to the upper deck and it wasn't. It definitely wasn't as crowd. And I don't know if that's a function of. We didn't have like a wimy there or the Lakers weren't as good or Ronnie. Yeah, yeah. People who were there were enthused. Yeah.

[C]

I do find that a little surprising because I feel like it's a summer league rite of passage for some highly touted pick to go in and absolutely just get demolished, put up crazy awful shooting numbers, like, really underwhelm. And for all of the top guys to show up in the way that they have. This feels atypical. It feels exciting seeing them match up against each other so early in the bracket. Obviously most of them are not going to play the entire summer league schedule to begin with, but it's been riveting seeing these guys go head to head and what they've been able to do even in chaotic wild summer league play.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good place to start here because all of the top four guys, there's been something to watch for them. I think all of them have had pretty significant moments. I think Caleb Wilson unfortunately had more of a comedown after his meteoric first start where he had like the most points in a summer league debut ever. Uh, so he had to come down at a certain point. But like, this top four feels as significant as I think it was build to Kyle. And I think the question that was kicking around in my brain and I'm curious what you think here, is like, so last year's top four, obviously incredible, where you had flag, you had Dylan, Harper, Khan and VJ is like, are we gonna have a thing now for years where it's like, which top four is actually gonna be better? And like, do we think that this year's can rival last year's even?

[B]

I think mixing them together and ranking them is gonna be something that's gonna reoccur because A Cooper is in technically in the age group with the. The top four from this year because he reclassified like they had been together all the way. So I. I'd heard people sort of mixing and I'm sure we'll do that more as we talk about young cores and young players going forward. I did want to clarify the top four. Yes, very good. If you go down into, you know, Keaton, Wagler and Acuff had some bumpy moments with his efficiency. Wagler struggled quite a bit in the first game. I was Thinking back to last year, though, I mean, it's funny to think where we ended up, and it speaks to reading into summer league too much, is that like, Khan didn't really set the world on fire at the start last summer. Harper was good, if I'm trying to jog my own memory here. But he, he didn't do anything that would have made us think like, oh, you know, this is a guy who's going to be a major factor in the finals, you know, so you do read into it, you know, at your own peril, I think. Read into it too much, yeah.

[C]

Well, much like Las Vegas itself, this is not real life. This is not the NBA. This is not even really professional basketball. It's a bunch of guys who just met. And I would say in terms of what you take away from summer league, usually it's smaller things. It's less like the big stat line and more. How did you feel about the way this guy creates space? How did you feel about the way this guy was dealing or not dealing with physicality? It's like it's the little elements that might translate to the NBA, because if we over index on this stuff, we're just going to drive ourselves crazy. That that would be a ridiculous thing to do. But there are some takeaways.

[A]

The rule of summer league is if a player performs poorly, it does not matter whatsoever. How dare you even mention it. This is stricken from the record if they play even remotely well. It's the most incredible thing. This is going to carry on for decades into the future. Please, NBA executive who picked them, please tell me everything about this and things to come.

[C]

See, we say all this and then I did watch that first Kayla Wilson debut and I saw God. So, like, there are just times where you're swept up in it and in the momentum and in the talent and especially someone like Caleb Wilson, where the pops are just electric and there's just neon signs all over his game pointing to that, like, this could be such a clear star. And that's a. That's a really tantalizing thing to try to put in context and to try to qualify and to try to be responsible about. And, and frankly, I don't even want to be too responsible about it. I just want to be excited about particularly these top four guys who all look, to varying degrees, just so ready for NBA basketball in all of its various facets. I. I really just can't wait to see them on the big stage.

[B]

I had a pretty funny moment during the first half of that Bulls game. The F the one where Caleb went off and I guess it was against, it was against Boozer and the Grizzlies. And I was texting with Tate and some other people about like. Cause Tate's a North Carolina guy, everybody well documented. And I was just saying, you know, Boozer's been the most mature, like fully round, well rounded rookie here, in my opinion. And then Caleb wasn't having a great first half because a lot of that happened in the second half and I had to get up and go to the other gym and the moment I left the gym he like goes off. So I was teased. Tate, Tate had a nice like how you like me now energy after that one because Caleb went, went wild. I was curious though, Rob. I mean you're, you're getting to watch this guy in game action for the first time. Specific. Was there anything specific about what, what made you see God? Like what jumped out to you about him?

[C]

Yeah, I think the player that I was led to believe Caleb Wilson was, was like, yeah, you will see these athletic pops. You'll see some of the stuff like the chase down blocks. You'll see some like play finishing more than play, creating that he's going to be a part of an offense, but not necessarily someone who can drive it or create on this level. And then I tune in for that debut and he's hitting like step back threes off the dribble, something I straight up didn't know he could do. He might in. In. In addition to that debut, which might be like the single best performance of anybody at summer league so far, also have the single best play of anyone at summer league so far. When he dunked on who was it? The Utah Center? Jonas. I do. Is that how you pronounce his name?

[B]

Adu? Yeah.

[C]

Like went up and just cocked it back on him after breaking some people down off the dribble. And it's like these are all at least from my reading, from my understanding the supposed weaknesses of his game is like, can he break people down? Will he be a go to scorer? What is his three point shooting future? And he just lit up all those things right out of the gate in a way that to me was really exciting to watch.

[A]

Yeah. I'm curious Kyle, what you think about the shooting and how that's going to like carry on into the NBA because obviously he didn't take many of them. He was saying that like he wasn't basically allowed to. He had the long time off because of his injury and because of all the pre draft workout stuff where Guys of that level, like how much are they actually working out? And if you're going to work out for a team, like is it really just more calisthenics getting up and down the court in order for them to meet you and do some of these other things? I'm curious about that, but I don't know if you guys caught the second game he played last night against the Jazz, which was a little bit more muted because Darren Peterson didn't play and it seemed like he almost like kind of deflated as a result of that. He was coasting a lot of it. The shots weren't falling down, but there was a moment late in the game where the game was basically just done. It was a very low scoring affair and was honestly kind of brutal to watch. But they checked him back in with. He didn't have to go back in. And he had that incredible dunk where he did like the throw it down. Like you actually like literally throw it into the rim and then he went on the other side and got his fifth block. And like to me that was kind of the Caleb Wilson experience. Like when the shot isn't falling and we'll see if it happens in a translate but like that sort of raw energy, athleticism, defensive potential at like just rim at the rim, like just like viciousness. I thought like was a nice sign because when things aren't going well, he still has that to lean back on.

[B]

Yeah, the shooting thing.

[A]

I.

[B]

Well, I wanted to comment on the dunk. There's the guy that he crossed over, Matthew Cleveland. I'm not going to say that he is exactly in the OG Anunoby category of on ball defenders. If you were, if you were looking to get a dunk highlight, that'd be the first person you want on you. But that, I mean, yeah, that was insanely impressive. I think all of those things are going to come along slowly. You know him, him attacking in transition off the dribble was pretty chaotic. We saw those, we saw the pain points, we saw the seams I think in some spots. But the shooting in particular, I'm. I'm a little more in the middle because I wonder, I wondered if this was like a Henry Baumgartner. Isn't that his name from Rookie of the year? The. The where he breaks his arm. I think rowingard where he can suddenly. Because they keep saying his name wrong throughout the movie. That's a classic. That's a classic. It is great Funky butt loving that one flew over my head when I was a kid. Anyway. No I was wondering if he breaks his hand and then he just becomes a 45% three point shooter. He was really hunting it and I would say all the top guys were. And that's pretty typical of the rookies. I mean in the first game like AJ and Darren both were really forcing it, trying to get to their stuff and it was ugly at times. But for Caleb, you know, as much as he was like allowed or not allowed to shoot threes, I don't know. But if you watched him, his set shot from the mid range, it was like you could kind of, you could see and buy in and he was good from the line. It was like eventually, I think it's eventually he could get there. And I was like, I'm probably somewhere in the middle where I'm like he's probably going to be like a mid-30s shooter. That's the most likely good outcome I think. But, but the thing you mentioned him just defensively he gets to his ceiling vertically quicker than a lot of players do. And he's so explosive and long that those were the things that really impressed me is like once he gets his defensive technique like more polished, he just inhales players around the rim. That that stuff was the most. That chase down block that he had after the behind the back turnover. I don't know if you all saw that. Yeah, he. I would love to see his time to Max Byrd. I bet it's among the highest in this class. It's, it's like breathtaking.

[C]

It's pretty crazy what he's already capable of. And it's not just meeting people at the rim defensively, but you can tell he's going to be an incredible switch defender. He is not step perfect right now. He's a little all over the place and like hit the way he moves in his footwork, but his instincts and his length, he just closes every gap so quickly. And so that combination of a big whole could be this kind of defender at the rim, who could be this kind of defender in space or a forward, we should say. I don't know where he's going to slot in as a pro just yet. And then regardless of what his percentage ends up being as a three point shooter, I think the smoothness of his release and how he taps into it, he's going to be able to get into more three point opportunities than the average forward or the average big might be able to like. It seems like mechanically the kind of shot that could really be pretty accessible for him.

[A]

I thought it was really funny, especially in that first game, the contrast between how he was affecting the game versus how Cam Boozer was. Because if you were to watch a highlight package, it's like Caleb Wilson, is he the next Garnett? Cross with Shaq cross with somebody else. It's just like, oh my God. And then Cam Boozer just like simple put back, like burrowing down in order to get a rebound or like tracking the ball in a Kevin Love esque way in order to put himself into position to grab the rebound. It was just like slow, methodical, effective. And what's crazy, Kyle, I didn't realize this, that cam is only 19 right now, actually has the same birthday, but is a year younger than Caleb Wilson.

[B]

That's.

[A]

Yeah, he's huge for an 18 year old. Like, that's another thing that I, I often remark upon at summer league. It's like when these guys who are physical marvels in the college ranks, like how do they look at the summer league situation? Because there's like more pros there. Guys from like trying to make Yugoslavian leagues are still kind of floating around and whatnot. Like he looks as big as Everton ties.

[B]

Yeah, he, he just had. There was an efficiency about like the knowing where to be, what to do. He, he wasn't there. There just aren't the gaps of polish. Like Caleb or Cam has different challenges ahead of him, I think, and if he wants to get into sort of the star superstar territory, but his baseline of just knowing where to be and when it was quieter, it's not always as flashy. He's not capable of going to the places that Caleb is. But um. And there's a lot of stuff out there about like Caleb has had a journey of sort of acclimating himself to what it takes to be a pro at that level and how to win and things like that. And he's been pretty open about that. But I also think that's one of the charming things about Caleb is he's a bright kid, he's very curious, he's eager to get better. So sometimes we'll come into the league and see the sloppiness of, of those things with like, especially when they're great athletes. I mean, Anthony Edwards is a great example of this. It's just when he would come in, he was just openly sort of ignorant and flippant about pro basketball. And some people were turned off by that. But what you saw is like that motor and that curiosity can really bridge some gaps between dudes who come in. Maybe they're a little bit ahead and Then you see them make up ground really quickly. Like Ant just started to kind of learn how to be a pro. Cam, Cam's been around pros his whole life. He's always going to have his. His floor and his baseline is just really high. Something that really struck me too among the playmakers that were in this event, you know, like Kingston Flemings, we can maybe get to him. I don't know how much you all saw him, even Darren Peterson, guys that can make the reads. And I had a lot of conversations with scouts and draft people about this this weekend guy. There's a difference between guys who can make the reads that and then throw like a scorable ball. Like Cam throws a really nice on time on target ball and it's like if you can make the reads but you can't do the ladder thing, it's kind of negates itself. Right. I think Cam was ahead on that front too. Just a great makes the reads throws really shootable scorable balls.

[C]

I think he's been if not the certainly one of the most impressive passers that I've seen of anyone at summer league and it is that it's like some of the lobs he's thrown to his teammates, the leading passes that are right there in the strike zone, like they are perfectly executed in the way that you kind of expect of someone of his polish but is super impressive for someone of his age nonetheless. I just, I think his floor is higher every single time I see him. It's just he can do so much with so much savvy. We saw him run like inverted pick and roll in some of these games in a way that's like okay, I guess that's just like an NBA weapon he's going to have in his back pocket on top of who he can be as a screen and role player, who he can be as a finisher around the basket. Like I just think the way he positions himself offensively is going to give him so many ways to tap into offense and he's not going to necessarily rack up even the assist numbers that yeah like guys like Kingston are or the Mavs guards are like there are more impressive raw totals out there in Vegas, but on a play for play basis I'm just like in awe of his ability to read and deliver with the kind of precision you're talking about. Kyle.

[A]

Yeah, the high floor definitely seems to be the case. Like I can't imagine he's ever going to flame out. I the. The question is like does Caleb just have this sort of superstar pop that Cam doesn't because there were times, especially when he was running in transition. I'm like this guy wearing snow boots, like why is he not going as fast as you would think? But he is big, obviously knows how to use it. And just the fluidity and the efficiency of movement at that size is crazy. Like he has that one play, I think it's from his last game where he was like basically Euro hop stepping and it's just like, it's just so flat, fluid. And the way that he was like navigating bodies, it's just like I think that stuff is going to make him have an impact. Like as soon as he gets the league, the high end stuff, we'll see. But like that guy's just dialed in in a way that you don't see rookies, let alone 18 year olds.

[C]

Well in the trade off for the snow boots movement sometimes is that you're getting an 18 year old who's big boying people out there with pure positioning more so than just like being bigger and stronger. He is big, he is strong. He clearly is really physical. But I just think that's one area where I'm not really worried about his acclimation to NBA size and NBA physicality. There are always challenges with it, but that it's not coming from a place of just like I am jacked in a way that my opponents are not. But I know how to get my pivot inside jurors. I know how to clearly box you out of this play, not just on the boards, but to kind of like freeze you out in rotation to help my teammates. He's just like a little thing king already. And to do that in summer league where everything is just like basically which guard can get to their stuff the fastest and the least inefficiently. I salute any big who is actually good out there. And Cam Boozer's been really good.

[B]

Look at you quoting a guide. That's what I picked up on that

[A]

I was gonna say please, please don't spread the good word.

[B]

The one thing that I have noticed though, I think the he has so many outs. I think for his trajectory, like outcomes, just what could happen for him. And that floor gives him a wide array of options if he doesn't become a superstar. Like he could, he's. He could be just an elite role player and that would be enough. Like he could be on winning teams. I think for the rest of his playing days. I did notice getting in the lane. I think he's gonna have to develop Some like single coverage, one on one bag. Because I did notice moments where he would have a smaller guy on him. And this happened in the Mavs game a little bit too, where it's just, he does have some of that physical bully ball vocabulary as a score where it's like he's gonna have. He's gonna have to find some more ways, I think, to produce his own. I think if he really wants to be a star level player, but it's just like, would you put that past him? I. I absolutely would not.

[A]

Yeah. Let's talk about AJ DeBonsa, the number one guy, speaking of huge players. Like, he was being guarded by Nick Clifford, who's like a pretty credible like 2, 3. In the. In the league. 6. 6. DebonSA just looked huge in comparison to him, which is something that like, I guess I knew, but. And that's something that certainly the Wizards knew in drafting him over a guy like Darren Peterson, who we're talking about a little bit later. But, like, just seeing what he's able to do, the fluidity. There was something on the broadcast where he was talking about how like Darren Peterson, I guess, is a Kobe guy and he's more of a TMAC guy. And I could definitely see it in the way that he processes things. I think T Mac's a little bit more like high feel, more slinky sort of guy, whereas debona plays with more raw power and aggression. And so seeing that approach with Married, with his sort of physicality is really interesting. But like, you could see it where he's like trying to get to his mid range pull up. He's trying to like, work at his own pace in order to get to his spots. And so I would say so far, so good for him. Kyle, I don't know what you thought, and perhaps in the initial duel with Peterson,

[B]

I think the sort of intrinsic primary template that they both are built from is way more Kobe to me in terms of the. The. I made this in a. I made this point in a video that I did recently, a little walk and talk where I was talking about Peterson. They. The isolation is the center of what they do is the core of what they do. And tmac was a very underrated passer. I've said that so many times. I feel like I just defend him historically a lot for that. Like, he just got off the ball really quickly in a way that I don't know that it doesn't come as naturally to Peterson or debons. So I don't. He may think that of himself. I hope he, he. And if he aspires to that, that will be a good outcome for him if he wants to play like TMac. But he strikes me as way more like, I'm gonna knock, I'm gonna knock on this door of like trying to get to my mid range or bully my way into the paint and I'll pass it. If that's not there, he's. They're not getting off it quickly. So that's kind of, that's my first kind of, you know, just thought from that he, he was ramming his way to the rim in a way where he absolutely looked like a veteran. You mentioned Nick Clifford on him, which is funny, is like they're a year apart in draft class and Nick Clifford is still like five years older than him because he came in older, but that was my first thing. It's just his physicality. He looks bigger and stronger. He didn't settle for jumpers a ton. He did some. But I was really impressed with how he got to the basketball.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, Nick Clifford as a test is probably one of the best defensive like challenges at summer league. For a player like AJ debonza, he looked really good. He looked really confident. I think he's checking all the boxes. To me of a guy who is like a big, lanky ball handler attacker.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Like someone who is going downhill, who is looking to get to his stuff, who's maybe. Yeah, a little less point forward t. Mac and a little more like Orlando Magic 30 a game t. Mac sometimes, like you can tell kind of which side is being channeled there of the coin. The problem for me is like all the other stuff, like the stuff he might be asked to do this year as a Washington wizard, like maybe hit like a single three is. Is a little bit of a work in progress. And so who he is as a ball dom potentially ball dominant star down the line and who he's asked to be out of the gate during these like first developmental years in the NBA. They could be wildly different things. And that's okay. I'm eager to see how his game sort of balances out to potentially be both of those. But for right now, like, he's making all the really hard stuff look pretty easy. And that to me is enough to kind of separate him as a prospect from a lot of people.

[A]

Well, I think that's a good kind of way to organize this conversation too because he has been so ball dominant and obviously guys go to summer league, they're. They're playing different roles than they're going to play in the NBA and a lot of these guys just get fed possessions just to see what they could do. Or for instance, like guys like Trey Johnson who's like not going to have be on the ball as much, especially with Trey Young there, like they'll play through him more than they would Will Riley. They basically weren't even using their point guard. He was out there. But it was like a lot of going through aj, A lot of going through Will Riley, especially in that second game. And I'm curious, Kyle, what you think because so much of AJ's life has been on the ball and you'd assume he'd do some of that at the next level, but you just paid Trey Young pretty handsomely and when you watch debon site you, you watch his handle, it seems still pretty loosey goosey for someone who has the ball so often. I do wonder if that sort of like brash physicality, like maybe that should be at the top of his like things to do and like prioritize in year one as a rookie because if anything he has someone whose job should be to feed him easier buckets rather than him kind of just ram his head into the wall over and over again for this first year.

[B]

Yeah, the handle's got to improve. But I think that's something that's just universally true for guys who are on his path. He did have some moments though where he had one play in their last game, I guess it was against the Kings where he, you know, did a, a wide hang cross that was in his left hand and he kind of did like a sell his jumper in and out thing. I, I don't mean it's the one where you, you're going up like you're going to go into your pickup and. And he in and outed with his left hand and drove to the basket and I was like, woohoo. That was, that was something for a six, nine guy. That's, that's pretty nasty at his age. This team, this Wizards team, though, you're, you're right, is going to be pretty fascinating because when they resigned Trey, I was just like the Trey aj. I know, you know, I know Trey's in the tunnel dispersing wisdom and stuff about how he'll bring his rooks. And I'm like, I just. You're, you're going to be balancing this thing of. I want AJ kind of taking reps through. I've been calling them atrophy reps. Just where you're, you're just pushing what you can do to the limit and tiring that muscle so that it'll grow and it's like, how much room is there going to be for that? But then on the other hand, I'm kind of like, you know, he was so primary byu. Some of that was because of injuries. Like their second best player went down or third best, whatever it was. And I've seen him in the USA games like for, for the FIFA or FIFA. FIFA on the brain, FIBA teams like play off ball a little bit more, play in, play in that supportive role. So he's capable of it. But balancing that with all the, with all the guys that they have on that roster, seeing how Trey's going to have to be willing to not be so sticky on the ball, it seems like to me because Kaishan and even Will Riley I thought looked fucking awesome at times during summer league, it's like they're going to have to be willing to move the ball around.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. They have a lot of prospects worth investing in and worth seeing. Kind of like how far they can push that atrophy rate that you mentioned. Kyle. I think Trey is capable of being that sort of like more game manager, more activate everyone around him. Guard. It's just difficult when you're coming off of like a trade that was a ding to your reputation. Like sitting out the part of the season when you probably didn't want to like Trey is going to want to come into the season with a lot to prove. He certainly heard a lot about his contract that he just signed from guys like us. But this is the problem with the. With a deal like that is like you give over $200 million to a guard, it's going to be hard at any point over the life of that deal to one trade Trae Young. If you ever decide you need to do that or even to de. Emphasize him when the time comes to promote AJ or anyone else on that roster to give them more opportunity, it's just always so much easier said than done to say, hey, $55 million star point guard, we want you to do a little bit less so that we can get this young guy doing more. I. I worry about that part of it and there just being enough oxygen for all of these guys to become the best versions of themselves. But the best version of AJ debona looks fucking incredible just based on these early snapshots of even summer league play.

[A]

Yeah. I guess the question is, is the appeal of AJ and why you drafted him? One in order to empower him with the ball like Kyle, like, is like him being such a big ball handler, being able to do that, the main selling point, or would you rather long term have him playing off of Trey, being able to create off of a pass, like the defense is rotating, then he's getting downhill. Like, which version of aj, I think would be more ideal? At least from the jump, it's gonna

[B]

have to be a little bit of both. Honestly, I was just thinking this might be a little bit akin to what Jason Tatum came into in the league when he was a rookie, where it was like, this is a guy who, his primary time will come and you work on the catch and shoot, you work in sort of the moving, you know, settings, just setting screens, and all of those things are going to be an asset to him as he gets older, because the worst version of aj I think is going to be just eat until his belly's big and full. And, and like the team is the, the team might hit a, a pretty good efficiency, but you're lowering the ceiling of the team. I think if you try to live like that exclusively and they have even too much, they're guys that are just on rookie deals. I mean, if you just sit, trade to the side, like, I, I think that they, they have a lot of talent that if they can figure out how to balance the appetites of those guys. Trey, Trey Johnson just makes me laugh. Like, you knew he was going to get shots up. I was watching that game, I was like, Trey's, like, it's, it's Trey Johnson time every time he touched it. But that's, that's going to be. I wonder if they can kind of work him along at that pace. And AJ's ball, dominant insistence or his, his reputation for that makes you think that maybe he would, he would be unhappy. I still do wonder about it, but if they, if they can bring him, convince him to come along slowly, like in the way that Tatum did with those successful Boston teams early on, I think it could be an, it could be invaluable to him long term.

[C]

I love that idea too. I mean, look, it's, it's a very different ask for a team that was in the Celtics position to compete versus one that's in Washington's position where they're still trying to prove who they are at any level. But if he can get some of the Tatum, like, supplementary skills together during this time of playing off of Trey, of playing off of some of his teammates who have been in the year or two, like Jayson Tatum turned into one of the most versatile Forward defenders that we have in the NBA and you, you can see flashes from AJ DeBaun like, oh my God, like if he, if he fully learns how to be responsible with all of his physical gifts on defense, he could be a total terror on that end of the court. And if these couple years are an on ramp to that kind of two way player, that could be a huge boon for the Wizards long term.

[A]

Yeah. On the flip side of that, Darren Peterson. I know he didn't have a particularly good debut in Vegas, but what's funny is like I've watched, I think all of his games at this point. I went back and watched the highlights from when he was at Utah and I just like trying to remember like the peak of it because the good old days were really good. Just the variety of ways that this guy was scoring. I was just like, this is exactly what I saw when we talked about him earlier in the season when he was still just like the few games he was playing early in the season where it's just like the variety of ways he can score and just like how much he instantly just fits the type of player that would, would work in the league. I'm just like, oh my God. Just like. It was just like the breath of fresh air. You needed to clean out some of the noise that had been happening around him going into the draft. Curious, Kyle, where you come out overall because the turnovers were high against the Wizards. Played better in that. In the next game in Vegas, probably he's getting shut down at this point. But like in terms of Peterson, like what, what is like the big old takeaway from this entire body of work?

[B]

The big old takeaway? What was the, the big old, the big old thing? What did you say? Off air, Rob. I forget.

[C]

I can't even remember. We're, we're too far in the off air weeds now.

[B]

I had to wa. I mean I was on a plane watching the first game on and just, just planes, man. I'm just, I'm just. My, my knees just at this point, it's, it's getting tougher and tougher anyway, so no, speak on it.

[C]

Call out the airline industry.

[B]

I got a screwed up left knee. It annoys me to be on a plane for a while anyway. So.

[A]

Anyway, $50 for economy comfort. What are we doing, man? Give me some more comfort.

[B]

I get more irritated with people who are just on their phones, like on speakerphone in public places. That was really driving me nuts, man. There was a lady at a restaurant behind me, like sitting at the break like, getting. Eating breakfast at the. The breakfast bar. And she was, like, on a speakerphone conversation behind, like, a lot of people. I was just like, what the. What is wrong with you?

[A]

Straight to jail.

[B]

Yeah, straight to jail. Get out of here.

[C]

Speaking of straight to jail, I mean, where are we on the, like, great culture war of our time, which is the can you recline your seat on the airplane Debate. How are. How are you guys feeling about that?

[B]

It's unacceptable. I know. Some people are like, it's my. It's my right. Just be a good human and don't do it.

[A]

Nope, you can't do it. This shouldn't be an option. What are we doing? As a society? It never balances out. Because when I say this to people, they're always like, oh, if you recline, like, it all bounces. No, the proportions do not work out.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

It doesn't work out. I agree with you.

[B]

I actually think over six feet tall. You're horribly inconvenienced by it. Just don't do it.

[C]

Yeah. I think what Kyle's saying is it's a hate crime if the person behind you is tall. So please act responsibly. We live in a society.

[A]

I think this, the courtesy wave are really where, like, we've learned where society is failing us. Like, the fact that courtesy waves are atrophying. Like, you gotta. You let someone in the lane. They don't give a hand. Oh, they should. They should be executed. Yeah.

[B]

Interesting how American that is. Interesting how American that is. Because when we were in Sweden, I noticed that the cars were so deferential to the pedestrians that there was none of this, like, courtesy wave stuff. I. I merged in the other night, and there was a dude on a motorcycle who was, like, listening to Nelly. Really? Like, you ever see those people who are, like, listen to music on their motorcycle? Like, louder than any car? He lets me in and I, like, didn't. I didn't wave. I didn't wave because I thought it was just. He wasn't moving. He left that in the.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

He left it. And when I. If people have kids in the car, I'm going to say something, so cover their ears. Ear must be he. When I cross the street, he very loudly next to this patio restaurant where a bunch of people were sitting. And he was probably being a little performative, but he goes, you're welcome, motherfucker.

[A]

Yeah, he should. That's the appropriate response. I yell like, we're trying to build a society.

[B]

You know, you yell, we're trying to build A society.

[C]

It's a little. Yeah, the message is good.

[A]

It's fine. Just like, don't worry about lines in, like, order or anything like that. Just go ahead and cut. It's fine.

[B]

Yeah, I could see you being aggrieved about that. It's just like, you shouldn't get. You don't need a sticker for the thing that you should just do. Like. I'm not.

[C]

Get over yourself.

[B]

Come on, man.

[C]

If you don't need the sticker, then we all need to do it. And you didn't even do it, Kyle, so. What are you talking about?

[B]

You're both against me. Okay, I see. All right. I. I wave usually, but it's just. I don't know. I just need to. Over there maybe. Yeah.

[C]

Kyle's not putting his shopping cart back at the grocery store now.

[B]

I do that. I do that. I pick up my dog's poop. I put the shopping. You know, I do. I do all those basic things. Darren Peterson, anyway. Yeah, no, I mean, I was watching that on the plane and I mean, the Wizards clearly came out with an agenda and they had the 10 fouls. It was like Jameer Watkins was like, I'm going to foul you every possession of the court. Something important to keep in mind, too, with summer league is that, like, not all these teams are bringing, like, equal. Some of these teams are weighted, bringing their young guys. Like Cedric Coward is out there with the Grizzlies and stuff. And you're like, what's going on here? Like, they're just more like. The OKC Thunders team was woefully inept. Like, it was not partly Mara's fault, but the, The Jazz just didn't bring the same. They had to sign Orlando Robinson just so that they would have, like, a competent basketball team, you know? So a lot, a lot of tilted towards Peterson and it was messy with the turnovers and things like that. And he's going to have to work on some of his passing. Like, the reads are there, but he just has so much polish to the way, like, when he gets to his mid range, like, he just. The technique of how he gets to his spots in his pace with the ball, I thought was really impressive. He didn't shoot it, like, outstandingly, but I think once you see him with all of the pieces that the Jazz have, it's going to look pretty good. I'm not saying it's going to be perfect, but he didn't show me anything that made me feel, like, concerned at all. I felt pretty good.

[C]

The Threat of his shot just already opens up so much, even when he's not hitting it at some crazy rate, that I would be surprised if he does not turn into one of the most flexible scorers in the league. Like, he just gets into the in between stuff so easily and he's so comfortable there, which is honestly not something you can say for a lot of prospects who come into the league like those, the floater zone, the kind of mid range pull up stuff. It's been de emphasized at so many developmental levels and Darren Peterson feels just locked in on those aspects of his particular game. And so he makes a lot more sense to me as like a pure scorer than as any kind of playmaker. I think the ability to play out of those advantages will manifest, will come with time. But he strikes me as the kind of star who even when he's at his absolute best is going to be like three, three and a half to four assists a game and not necessarily like the seven, six, seven assists per game. And that's, that's going to be okay if he turns into the kind of score he seems to be projecting as well.

[A]

I think that's interesting because everything I was thinking about was how that maps onto a backcourt with Keonte George there, because I think you would say a lot of those same things about him. And so in concert, perhaps it works, but it almost forces these guys who seem to be score first in their approach and everything else kind of trickles down from there to almost be both well rounded enough that they're almost like stars in their own right. It's like you need to be the type of go to scorer who could put up 20 to 30 a game, but also get everyone else involved and like if you do enough of that, like those things can meld together. And so it's like, it seems like a tricky proposition, Kyle. But at the same time, like both of these guys are also pretty good at it. I could see both of those guys getting close to that level. So maybe that's it. They're just so talented that they can figure this out. But it is a pretty unique setup in a league where like these two things don't typically go together.

[B]

Yeah, well, you got me thinking about. You're absolutely right. I mean both of those guys are scoring tilted guards and, and I, I had this thought watching him and I put, I put, also put that in that the video where I was talking about the Jazz where it, it occurred to me that if Peterson ever got in his mind that he wanted to become a High movement kind of pitch and catch shooter where he is playing with a big that can pass the ball. Whether or not that's going to be. I mean what's interesting is Nurkic is on this team and this backcourt is a little reminiscent of of the Dame CJ archetype. Honestly if he ever commit he will be a mega pain in the ass to guard. If he ever gets in his mind that like he doesn't that he doesn't have to be a helio pound the ball harden type of guy because he's not as talented as Harden as a passer. He's a more. He's just as talented a score I think but I think if playing with Nurkic I think it's going to be a pretty funny. I'd be curious to ask Nurkic about it if anybody does. In the fall of like he's he's doing this almost timeline reset where he's playing with a younger version of those dudes that he elevated so much.

[C]

Yeah, I would love to see him become that kind of player. At least in spots. It doesn't have to be all the time. I think so much of Darren Peterson's career is going to come down to how he balances this stuff because he like right now he's already showing he can capitalize on so much of the easy stuff that just comes with being a good, talented skilled player who is in a functional or even semi functional offense. Like he's just going to get free points by virtue of his talent in some of those situations. And he's also showing that he can convert some of the hard stuff that you really can only rely on stars to do. And if those things are always or consistently true, it's going to be a really high level player. Which way he tilts is probably going to decide whether he ends up being like a year to year superstar or someone who's just kind of like on the fringes really productive. But you always wonder what could be if he kind of nailed everything down just so.

[A]

All right, want to talk about some of these other guys at summer league but why don't we take a quick break first.

[B]

This summer? Serve up the cookout classics. Oscar Mayer hot dogs and Heinz mustard. Grill up a dog, add classic yellow mustard or loaded Chicago style. We all know it's not a cookout without Oscar Mayer and Heinz.

[D]

Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or white chocolate Moza? Whichever you choose. Delicious Coffee awaits. Find Starbucks, Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.

[A]

All right, summer league. Outside of the top four, Kyle, what are the other guys you want to talk about here? Who caught your eye?

[B]

I think Kingston Flemings was the best guard at the event that I saw. I will, I will do a quick shot. I saw, I saw lebaron Filon, who Longtime lebaron Filon guy on record. I got to see him up close. Like, I sat pretty close behind the bench and just saw his. And it's amazing what you pick up on if you're that close, like seeing just their presence and how they talk and how they affect their teammates. And Phylon was insanely impressive on that front. Just, he had a real confidence. Like, we got this, I got this, follow me kind of energy. That was really, really impressive. And he steadied and stabilized them and, and they had a close win. I forget who they were playing against, but.

[C]

Well, for someone, for someone on, on the file, on front, before we move on, who was not, like, privy to the step by step process that led to him becoming a Sixer, like, what the fuck happened? Like, how did, how did he end up falling this much?

[B]

I don't know, man. I, I know, I know that they had other plans in the draft. The Sixers did, like, in terms of what they were going to go after, and he was there. And then when you consider the other guards that they already have, I think it speaks to how good he is that they were like, yeah, we got it. We got to take this dude. I know, I know. Yeah. Internally he had, you know, a lot of, like, huge fans with them, so, and, you know, obviously he was taken, so that's the case. But he, when he was there and he was available, and I, I said this on a Sixer show not long ago, is that they were going to take him last year. I know that. So if he was available later in the first round. So I'm sure they were jumping for joy. But talking about Kingston, they, they both were really impressive, but I, I, I just thought Kingston Fleming's like, ball screen acumen in this. Like, he made some passes that were just absurd and just very steady, you know, I know people were really talking a lot about that, that clip that came out of him talking to his teammates and sort of just walking them through reads and things like that. That's the type of duty is. And you know, coming out of this event, I'm, I, it's one of those where I'm like, I honestly wonder if I had him high enough, I circle back and moved him up. But I just think he's so impressive, man. I think he could end up being the best guard in this class.

[C]

Justin, have you seen this clip of like the mic'd up Kingston Fleming summer league action?

[A]

I haven't. So he's just telling them where to go.

[C]

It's just him being like a 33 year old point guard in a, you know what 20 year old's body or however old he is. It's like the precision, the clarity, the calmness of just like who he is as a communicator. I'm, I'm radicalized to the extent that I even needed to be. I've been out here, you know, in my very limited draft exposure, being very impressed with Kingston Flemings on multiple podcasts now. But I've seen everything I need to see, frankly. I'm on board fully.

[A]

It's kind of like when we have phone calls and I'm just like, oh yeah, you got to go do this and that.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And Rob and I come away so inspired.

[C]

We're ready to run through a wall for you and for group chat. You're our Kingston Flemings. There's really no doubt.

[B]

Flemings had a play where I think it was like a going left pick and roll where they were hedging and the defense just kind of, he was feeling them out and he like intent. He had a very purposeful dribble that he took to see what the man. I'm trying to remember if it was weak or strong side, but it was a guy in the corner because the ball ended up in the right corner. And he was kind of, he was purposefully dribbling to sort of see where the secondary help would, would move and he was like going, he threw the ball across his body almost like Patrick Mahomes to the, to the opposite corner and I was just like. Oh. I was like. It was. He, he was really, really impressive as a, as a manipulative kind of passer man. I think he's going to help the Hawks like immediately. He, I mean he, he, he might star for them. It's. He, he, he really blew me away. Well, that's. Yeah, go ahead.

[A]

Well, I was going to say that's a really interesting contrast to what happened with Acuff, who I. The defensive clips have been making the, the rounds here and like, I guess you could expect that to a certain degree. I don't know if I'm actually like plugging into summer league basketball basketball for like the defensive Acumen of. Of most players, but the fact that he hasn't been notable, like, notable offensively, hasn't been particularly sharp. All the things you'd expect to counterbalance some of those issues, like, just haven't been there. Like, some lazy passes, just like, what got blocked, I think, by debona trying to get us into his step back, and almost seemed, like, surprised by the length and like, it was a little bit more mixed than I'd expect for someone who is so mercurial as, like, an offensive guy in college.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Talk about Acuff specifically.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yes. I wasn't terribly surprised, honestly, just because it's. It's interesting because having conversations with people coming out of this past year when he was at Arkansas, you know, I made this point too, that, you know, he was on a team that really needed him to play a certain way. And the more I thought about it and the more I was, like, watching him in summer league, I was just like, it might have been a little bit of both. It was like we kept excusing that and saying, you know, I think he is just insistent on playing a certain way. He likes to have the ball in his hands a whole lot. I thought he got to spots. It's just some of that stuff will even out, like knowing when to go for your own shot, knowing when to sort of be the game manager. Like, the way that, you know, Flemings was ahead of him in that sense. I think LeBaron was ahead of him in that sense, and just knowing what to do and when. When to score, when to be a playmaker. The defensive stuff was bad, but overall, overall, I think the Kings did a pretty good job, have done a pretty good job just resetting their culture. They're taking kind of small steps, you know, letting go of DeMar DeRozan. I'll let people go with that one. There's a lot of Twitter discourse about DeMar DeRozan's credibility as a winner, whatever it is. I think Caravan looked good. I'm sure you were happy about that, Justin. I think, you know, Dylan Cardwell looks good. I think, you know, Nick Clifford, they're making baby steps. I. I'm not overly worried, though, about Acuff.

[C]

I guess I think it would be profoundly stupid to pretend that who Darius Acuff is in Las Vegas is who he's going to be in his NBA career. All of that said, even though this is just summer league, this competitive environment is tailor made for players like him to succeed. And the fact that he is not even remotely coming Close to succeeding. I, I'm, I am mildly concerned. I was already mildly concerned.

[A]

Like, clearly, clearly.

[C]

Though, Justin, to your point about the defense, like, no one is showing up here pretending to like, oh, I'm going to lock into this defensive tape. The baseline is like, can you be not embarrassing? And he's been kind of embarrassing.

[A]

I like how you set that up too. You put all the armor on. You're like, oh, no one, no one could find me in here if I, if I'm wearing this breastplate. And then you went for it. I appreciated that you got to do both.

[B]

Shouldn't be worried, but I'm worried. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, we'll see. Anybody else you guys want to talk about here?

[C]

Do we talk about Yaxel?

[A]

Ooh, big old boy shooting the hell out of the ball.

[C]

I mean, he, Some of this might just be the age, but like, he has a polish that even some of the second and third year guys at summer league just straight up do not have. Like, he is going to be as seamless a rookie fit as I think anybody we're going to find. And does he give the warriors all the things they didn't have? Clearly not. Does he amplify the way they play? And is he going to fit so easily into that system? I mean, I just, I can't see it going any other way.

[B]

He looks so confident, confident out there. Like, I mean, shooting the ball really, really well. Made a lot of just downhill, you know, draw, seeing an advantage, getting the ball where it needed to go. Just short roll passes. He just looked realized, honestly. I honestly wonder if this draft pick was more of a free age, a good free agency signing for them because he's going to be just ready to roll defensively, look good. Yeah, Yaxel. Yaxel was really, really important or impressive, and he wasn't going for it. You know, it just all looked comfortable. It looked, it was just playing basketball like it was. It didn't look like he had anything to prove or an agenda that like went off the rails, you know, the way that some other, some other guys did.

[C]

I think he's just making fewer mistakes than any player I've seen at summer league. And yeah, you would, you would expect that given the quality of player he was in college and where he is in his kind of developmental arc, but impressive nonetheless.

[A]

Yeah, it is always funny watching clips of him and then googling his age. It's like, oh, yeah, he's actually just the same age as Paulo Banchero, who's about to start his second contract. So that is notable. Obviously, came from a lower levels. And so he's in a different track. But like, yeah, just like, if he's going to shoot even close to this, just the feel at his size just feels very worsey. And so, like, if he's just going to be a steady rotation player, like, they need guys like that who are big, who fit their style. And so, like, we'll see about LeBron. That's still in the air as we're recording this on Tuesday morning. But, like, that's going to help. They need helpful players.

[B]

That's an important spot for them because if you think back over their most successful teams, it's like toolsy, switchable defensive player. Not that he's going to be Iggy, but it's. It's that slot. And then you see like, Otto Porter came in and had some success. People forget about that with their title team. Porter kind of had a resurrection there for a little bit playing with them. He kind of. He does slot into that spot. I was.

[C]

We should.

[B]

We'd be remiss. I mean, people are going to be like, oh, you didn't mention Wagler struggled. I think people, we need to. It wasn't perfect for these rookies. I mean, Wagner had some moments where he looked, you know, shots to Baba Miller look good. I was a huge fan of his, but Wagler needs to get stronger. I think that's a huge thing for him. You can see his process and everything. I don't really worry about. But he didn't look as comfortable with the ball and the physicality. I think like we say in the.

[C]

The.

[B]

The foul limit allows guys to play pretty aggressively, but he has some things to work on. I'm not overly concerned. Braden Buries, I don't know if you got to watch him, dude, he was kicking ass. Braden Buries looked incredible.

[C]

I'm very impressed. But who he is for the Bucks this season is kind of a whole separate question and how he slots in and how they want to use him. But there's. There's a lot to love, I think, honestly, on both sides of the ball, more than I expected.

[A]

Yeah, there's going to be a big, like, oh, should Dallas have reached for more as Johnson? Because Buries was there and then obviously Yaxel has been kicking ass. We'll see more as didn't play in the second game. I was tuning in specifically for that. So that was fun. But like, Buries looks like everything that he's been built to, just like a real gamer type. And then obviously Yaxel just seems built for this environment, but we'll see. Definitely excited about both players and the Bucks need as much excitement as they can get at this point.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Anybody else guys want to highlight? I mean Mara didn't really cover himself in glory. Speaking of former Michigan guys, I mean

[C]

just on these first glimpses, again, very early, a big in summer league all do caveats. I just don't see how this guy that I just watched is going to be a relevant part of the Thunder season this year. Like more of a project, more of a long term play. Let's see who he can be kind of developmentally but on the high end of what he's doing. Like the high post passing looks pretty legit. Like he's finding some guys backdoor in ways that are good and constructive. That could be a long term NBA role for him. The movement, the physicality, the way he's using his size. I'm, I'm not super impressed with those things so far, but it's so early.

[B]

Yeah, the speed looked like it kind of had his head spinning a little bit and he was in a nice comfortable cocoon of just a gigantic physically dominant team in college that he could chill at the back line of. I had to take care of the like he didn't play in the other games and I know people are going to go, okay, Kentucky, here we go. It wouldn't shock me if Otega away ends up being their best rookie. I don't. You guys probably didn't even see him. Don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But you can go check on this one after the pod. But wouldn't shock me if that happened. I mean just rattling off quickly through here too. Make sure that I cover Con or Alan Graves with another one. Did you guys get to check him out for the Raptors? Because that was a pick that people were like he had. He had some great like passing moments. He looked ready to roll. Malik Thomas was putting the ball in the basket. He's a wild man. Abuko Corey looked pretty good for the Pistons. Justin smiling, I don't know. Just jump in. Justin, what do you. What do you think?

[A]

You called them a wild man. I just thought it was funny, actually.

[C]

I think you're the wild man of our pod, jv. Weirdly enough, you're both the calming Kingston Flemings and the wild man. I don't know where that places any of us on the spectrum relative to that, but somehow you're both okay.

[A]

I like, I like being a guy who contains Multitudes. I was going to find a way to shoehorn Young Hansen in there, but, you know, we could. We could move along.

[C]

He's doing some stuff.

[B]

Did he. I didn't get to see.

[A]

Yeah, definitely. Too good for summer league. How good is he for the NBA? Hard to say.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. That's fair.

[A]

He's picking up the speed of it better.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Who else jumped? They always. The too good for summer league thing is always a nice. A fun topic of the. There's a couple categories. There's the oh boy, this guy's barely hanging on. And then there's the too good for summer league. The why is this guy here still. Tajon Salon is still in summer league. And I was just. Is. Are we. How.

[C]

What do you.

[B]

What stage of holding onto the rope are we at? Is it wrapped around his arm? Like, is he have it like this or is it like there's a pinky on the rope? Where are we, do you think?

[C]

I think it's wrapped around the Hornets in a way where it's cutting off their circulation a little bit and they're like, trying to figure out how to disentangle it, but there's only so much you can do when it's pulled. Todd.

[A]

Yeah, he. He's at the. We have his next option on the calendar date, just so we remember not to take it like, decline on. On the page.

[C]

And meanwhile, too, Cody Williams, who, like, really had some moments at the back part of the regular season. I'm just like, really? Cody, like, this is. This is how you're going down in these games.

[B]

I had a thought about that too, because I was. I was like, there's a funny thing going on with him and his brother where Cody's brand recognition definitely benefited from his brother coming on the scene the way that he did. But we do this weird thing where Jalen had the benefit of developing kind of in the dark a little bit at Santa Clara, where Jalen's rookie season. He is the same age that Cody is now. And I'm kind of like, would Cody if Cody had stayed in college? And we've been watching him like baby deer it through the first couple years of his NBA career. And it's like we're really scrutinizing him. It just goes to show you, like, how. How different the perception is. Granted, Cody just doesn't have the ball skills in the point guard kind of feel that Jalen does. And, you know, he'll have moments where he did. He. He had some pretty erratic, like, oh, boy. Like this Is. This is tough. I. I just. I'm trying to still wade through how alarmed I should feel about, like, where he is. He shot the ball decent in. In spurts when I was watching. I don't have the stat in front of me, but that occurred to me when I was watching him and thinking about his brother's arc.

[C]

I'm not full on alarmed yet. I think it's a great caveat as far as the age and kind of where he is, but he's going to be an important player for the chess. Like, he's going to get a real opportunity to play. They don't have a lot of guys who kind of slot cleanly into that sort of perimeter chase and stop mode. That could be a real role for him. Like, there's a lane for him to carve out if he can put his foot down and claim it. Whether he's ready to do that, I really have no idea after these summer league performances.

[A]

On the flip side, I did like the A.J. mitchell memorial. I played in the Finals, but here I am at summer league. Like, I like the grind of a Carter Bryant showing up, getting some shots off and like, maybe playing one extra game out there. That was good to see. And we mentioned Trey Johnson before. Like, he looked physically bigger. Like, clearly he's been in the NBA weight room and he had the one game, put up a bunch of points and then just hit sayonara very quickly. But, like, that was a too good for summer league guy that I think deserves mentioning.

[C]

Definitely.

[A]

All right. Want to do a little mailbag before we close things out for the summer?

[C]

I would love to.

[A]

All right, two questions on the docket here. Before we get out. I don't think we're gonna do a pod for at least a month, so want to. Wanted to reach out to the fans. You know, I want to say there.

[B]

I want to say I had a. I had a lot of people come up at summer league and say. And. And say, hey, from listening to the show and just wanted to let people know. I appreciate that. It was really nice. Just. Yeah, wanted to relay that to you guys too. Had many people send their well wishes and say they listened while they're driving or just a lot of different. A lot of different people occupying their days. And it was. It was nice to hear that. I appreciated it to everybody that did that.

[C]

Honestly, it's one of the most delightful parts about something like summer league or all Stars. Just being in the same place as so many of our fellow, like, absolute NBA degenerates and they are our people. You know, like we have all chosen each other and it's a very special thing.

[A]

That's a good segue here because the first question is from Jared from San Antonio, who definitely fits the degenerate bill because his question is specifically for one Rob Mahoney. He asks how many Rob Mahoneys would it take to be one WEMBY in a game of 21. And Rob, I think this actually comes down to a different sort of question, which is the scouting report on your game specifically because we need to know like how the, the Mahoney's map together. Like if you have a Lebron, like obviously like Lebron's are going to be able to play off of LeBron's. But like if, if you have like a Zydrunas Oskis, like how many of those guys do you need in order to go against Wemby? That's a different sort of equation.

[C]

It is a very different equation. There is a diminishing return, I'm not going to lie to you, to putting a bunch of Robs out there. I have, you know, three point range, but I wouldn't say it's the strongest part of my game.

[B]

See, I don't want to offend you, Rob, but you strike me as somebody that can't shoot.

[C]

That's fucked up. That's so fucked up and categorically wrong.

[B]

You strike me as like Demontes. That's what, that's what I always think when I think about your game. Just like hand shots, some post game, he'll hit you and go in the rain. But it's kind of like you settle, I'm going to let you settle.

[C]

I'm. I'm actually wounded by this, but I'm definitely more. I'm a little low post high post flexible. So I do have a little demonic bonus to my game for sure. Maybe more needlessly flashy than demonic bonuses. Like I'm just trying to throw a dumb pass to throw a dumb pass sometimes. Cause that's what we're about, like a Dare Queen. I, I think I'm a better interior score relative to pickup basketball than Derek Queen is relative to the NBA. So. But here's the problem. This is not relative to pick up basketball. This is relative to Victor Webanyama. So I think the number is going to have to be pretty high. The first thing that came to mind for me was, I don't know if you guys have seen that clip of three members of the Japanese national soccer team playing against 100 elementary school kids. On a soccer pitch. But I think that might be kind of the baseline we're working with is

[B]

like, I didn't see this, but I need to.

[C]

It's a, it's incredible and super funny and I would highly recommend anyone seek it out. But obviously five robs is not going to be enough. I don't think 10 robs is going to be enough. I think we're going to have to get into like the 20, 25 robs range and really just like surround Victor Webanyama so he cannot move. That seems to be my best strategy.

[B]

That's you on defense. I mean you're actually, yeah, you're going, you're going, you're going atat on planet Hoff strategy there. Tangle him up, don't let him move kind of thing. But I'm curious, on offense, how are you scoring? My ba. My first basic question is can you throw a pass? Do you think you can throw a pass period? Yeah, if there, if there are, if there are 20 Robs out there, you have to. Yeah, I think you would have to make a bunch of short passes because I've heard stories from coaches who have told me that like against, if you're a regular dude against an elite defender, this is fair.

[C]

This is fair.

[B]

I, I, I talked to, this is, this will name drop. I talked to Kevin Young one time. He's the coach at byu, but he coached for the Sixers for a little bit and he was telling me that he was a good player and he was like he played some college and he was telling me he tried to throw passes in Robert Covington's vicinity and he could not. So I'm just trying to, I'm taking that to scale of you trying to. I think you would have to make a bunch of like handoff type passes to try to get away from little

[C]

chips one to another down the chain of robs. Here's the thing. I'm starting to think strategy now and I'm wondering if I'm on offense, can I have 10 robs surround Victor Wembanyama and screen him simultaneously so that he literally just can't move? And once we, if we can and defensively we could do the same thing, we can fully surround him. The question is, is Victor Webanyama just going to hit enough completely, completely uncontested threes to just win this game outright? And the answer is he probably will. And I don't know how many robs are really going to change that.

[A]

Yeah, because there's only so much space in the half Court, and I assume we're just playing half court here. And, like, if you have 20 to 30 robs out there, Wemby probably can't move. Like, literally can't put the ball on the decks. And so he's just stationary shooting the entire time because. But then it begs the question, do you put some of the robs on top of robs in order to. In order to, like, block his shot there? Basically doing. Yeah, I didn't even think about trench coat sort of thing. I think you got to do a few of those.

[C]

Yeah, I. I think in theory, you're right. In reality, these robs have back problems, and we can't just be stacking robs.

[B]

So I just picture this cascade of, oh, oh, oh, a lot of you. Is there also another factor of this? Is there, like, a hive mind thing where, like, one rob or are they not connected? Because if they're connected and, yeah, all of you are reacting the same way. I could see that being debilitating. It's like. But you would have to go like the Jon Snow Battle of the Bastards thing where you just suffocate. Like, he's like, Wimby's just suffocated.

[A]

All the robs. Wemby. Yeah.

[C]

I think that's the only option we have available to us. And I would have to think, based on the framing of the question, this is not a hive mind. It's how many Rob Mahoneys would it take? Not how many extensions of one Rob Mahoney. So it's. It's all of us out there being fallible and making bad decisions and getting winded way too easily and somehow trying to beat Victor Webanyama.

[B]

I'm going to say offline robs.

[C]

Yeah, Sentient offline robs. I'm going to say it would take over 25 Robs to beat Victor Webanyama.

[A]

A lot of robs.

[C]

I mean, do you think. Do you think fewer could. Could do the job?

[A]

I was going to say 15 to 20.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

But I. I don't think you're scoring is the thing, I think, because since you can't shoot, Wimby's going to be in the lane, you know, and I've lobbed another one at you there, and you didn't react, but I'm.

[C]

I'm unbothered. Here's the thing, though. It's going to take that many to beat Victor Webanyama. I could beat any NBA media player one on one. I feel.

[A]

I feel confident.

[C]

I feel confident. Sorry, sorry. Qualifier. Non. Former professional Basketball player. NBA. NBA media.

[B]

Do you think you would just post me up over and over? Right? That's what you think.

[C]

If you and I are playing. Make it. Take it, Kyle. You're cooked like I'm. You're going to dribble that one.

[B]

You're going to dribble that fucker one time and I'm going to back tap it. I'm just going to tell you, you're not going to dribble around me in the post. I'm just telling me this man has no.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

I think we've stumbled upon the better question is who would win one on one, Kyle versus Rob. And when can we film this? Because I want to see immediately.

[B]

Look at this dude.

[A]

I'm going to.

[B]

I'll drag you out to the deep end, buddy. And you.

[C]

You're gonna have to.

[B]

I'm not worried about there.

[A]

I'm not.

[C]

I'm really not worried about it. So maybe this is content. We'll see.

[A]

We definitely.

[B]

I don't doubt that Rob would bury me in the like I stood near. He's much bigger than me. He would. He would destroy me. But I wouldn't be so sure that you could take. I'm a three level scorer. Rob. I'm just letting you know it's going to be a really good player who

[C]

would unfortunately lose like 11 to 2. So it's just. It's just going to be what it's going to be.

[D]

I just.

[B]

The confidence talking about checking me dribble, pull up 25ft, give me a.

[C]

There's not a lot of checking required. I'm just going to wait for the first miss and check up like it's going to be fine.

[A]

Oh, wow. I love this. Sure didn't know that Rob had that Mamba mentality.

[B]

I did. Did you catch what happened during this guy? I did rouse him into being confident. It's true. I'm already in your head. So that's another thing I got going for me.

[D]

There we go.

[A]

All right, well, since we have this ball knower off going on here, why don't we transition to our second question which is essentially like, how do you determine whether or not someone knows ball? This is a three part question from Jack Kinney. He asks. He had this whole windup where he like, I guess people at his work didn't appreciate Draymond. He was like, what are you talking about? Draymond's incredible. Which is I think a different level of the ball nova sort of thing. I think if you're at that point you're like, come on, Draymond's a Hall of Famer, one of the best defenders of all time probably. But he asks one, what are the players you're most surprised? You most often have to argue were great. So a player who is great, but you have to defend them. Two, and I think this is actually the big question. Are there players or opinions that you use as a litmus test when hearing someone talk about basketball? He says he's go to his Draymond. And three, are there players you think impact winning that often go misunderstood? And so who do you guys think? Let's take that second question first. Like who is the litmus test for you guys?

[C]

So historically these guys for me have been like Al Horford, Hawks era Al Horford peak plus minus Ricky Rubio. And honestly at some points OG Anunoby. That's not the case anymore now that he's an NBA Finals legend. But those are three guys for me who it's always like, you can tell what a person thinks about the world based on what they think about Hawks Al Horford. These days it's a lot more like Pascal Siakam for me. Or honestly post spurs series, Chet Holmgren falls into this category a little bit too of just like what you offer a team comprehensively and especially defense. Like really what we're talking about is people who watch the sport through the lens of bucket getting versus people who watch the sport and look for some kind of value in defense. We can argue about how much and whether we over index on this or that. But like Chad Holmgren is still an all in a level player even if he can't create his own shot. Like that is still true now, even if it was like didn't seem that way when he was matching up or not matching up against Victor in the, in the Western Conference finals. And so I do think about a person a certain way if they start throw it like Dragon chat through the mud and. Or a player like Pascal Siakam gets like omitted from all NBA consideration or something like that based on out of sight, out of mind, based on taking his versatility for granted. I like guys who plug gaps, I think is what I'm getting at. And sometimes those are not always the scores. But you don't always have to do the sexy stuff to be great.

[B]

I can't stop laughing about Rob challenging everybody to one on one. I just could stuff. I can't believe we got that out of you. That was such a. It goes beyond me. Well, we can, we can, we can parse that out later. But no, I mean, you rattled off a lot of the names I had too. I mean, it's funny how the winning sort of validates them and takes them out of the. Because, I mean, Derek White was like that for a while.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I mean, Drew was one of the ultimates. Like, when people would just crap on Drew, I'd be like, all right, buddy. Like, you know, I already kind of know who you are based on what you say about somebody like a Derek White or a Drew or a Chad or a. Or a Pascal. OG was a huge one, like you said.

[C]

Yeah. To hit. I mean, to circle back to Derek White for a second. He's kind of gone maybe like totally around the bend of this conversation where when people start talking crazy about Derek White, I'm like, I kind of know where you're coming from and where you stand. And we are in similar places, but we're not. Not in the same place.

[A]

Speaking of Derek White, just like, as a side thing, he was wearing the coaches polos and seemed like he was talking to guys on the bench as if he was a coach. But Keonte George can't do it.

[C]

It's messed up.

[A]

What the fuck?

[C]

Celtics privilege is so real. And I, frankly, in this context, I find it offensive. Like, let Keonte George coach. Why are we doing this?

[B]

I mean, like, historically, for me, one of the big ones is, like, how people talk about Scottie Pippen. That's a huge one. I think I've banged that drum a lot on this show. Just when people just, like, just fail to understand. And at times I honestly feel like Scottie Pippen himself fails to kind of understand why he was good. But that, That's a huge one for me is he's. He's one of my all time, like, role player. But that doesn't even cover it. I mean, he's like a superstar who just could do everything. But. Yeah, and other than that, I mean, like, Mike Conley is another one. Aaron Gordon, Andrew Bogut. I find myself defending frequently.

[C]

Those are just a few or what?

[B]

Yeah, typically that. Yeah, well, those are. Yeah.

[A]

I will say, I don't think this is exactly what Jack is asking, but the spirit of the question I kind of don't appreciate because I think we actually need less I know ball. You don't know ball sort of division in this.

[C]

Oh, come on.

[A]

I, I kind of hate the, like, the barriers of entry that we put on these sorts of things where it's just like, I think this is too much of, of basketball district Course. And I think like a lot of sports, like don't have this sort of side thing where it's just like you need to prove your worth in order to have a. If you just like rattle off ghost screens and all. I know, I know, but, but that's what. How I'm like, I think it can like snowball to that point.

[C]

The, the thing is, if you come in here talking about how like Cam Thomas is misunderstood and is just waiting for his opportunity, like I'm going to think of your perception of the game a certain way. You're welcome to it. Like, do you. It's just like we are on, we're on different wavelengths. That's all that it is.

[A]

And that's why. Yeah, I think you guys went a little deeper than I did. I was thinking more of like the, the like literal. Like you think this player is bad, but he's actually the best in the league. And I think Shay is, is the prime example of this where I think to a large extent of, of the viewing public, he's a file drawing merchant and is just entirely that if anything, he represents the absolute worst of the league. But if you watch on a day to day basis, it's just like, come on, man.

[C]

Yeah, you know, I think there's like a matter of taste involved in stuff like that and I'll just like what you're willing to accept from your stars in terms of some of their like more annoying qualities or like some of the underwhelming parts of their game, whatever it is. But like the Shea conversation and the Harden conversation are looped in together. It's just Shea is also a minted champion and kind of more successful in his way than Harden ever was.

[B]

And it's funny because both of those guys have gone through phases where it's like early Shay was being defended and there were people who were looking at what he did and they were just like, this guy has all these tools and they just are such good players that they had options available to them that other players didn't, where they can game a certain thing and spam a certain thing. And you know, know with, with Harden it was the isolation, the foul drawing and things like that. And it's like you love it or you hate it. And Shay kind of followed a similar path where it was like he found this one button he could push over and over again and it works and it's, you know, love it or hate it. But I was trying to think. Justin, it seems like what you're alluding to is Sort of like a gatekeeping hipsterism, like, akin to, like, music. You know, it's like if somebody says they like a certain band, they're like, oh, yeah. Oh, you like their new album? Right? Okay. It's like, really? It's this album. I don't. I don't know if it's necessarily that. It's just. There just seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what basketball's about at times, where I think some of these guys. I think Nick Batum's another guy that falls, like, it's phases of his career where he's just been this incredible role player. He just hasn't been in the right places to get the validation that some of these guys have in terms of winning.

[C]

The conversation I used to get into with NBA coaches all the time was Carmelo Anthony versus Andre Iguodala. Which one would you rather have on your team? And I.

[A]

The Carmelo Wars, I. I still bear the scars.

[C]

They were intense. They were not going anywhere. And this is. This is the historical part of this where. I mean, if. If Jack is concerned with the Draymond arguments he's having now, imagine 20 years from now when it's people who only know Draymond through looking up his basketball reference page or whatever, like, hologram version of that exists, and they see, oh, he averaged nine points a game for his entire career. This guy sucked. There's just some things you can only understand in context with time, like, in the moment that they existed. Like who Draymond Green has been as a defender is off the charts. You mentioned it. Jv he's one of the best of all time, if not the best, doing what he does of all time in terms of defending space, switching the variety of assignments he could take on all of those things. I think historically, the other one that seems to be losing its grip with the reality that I understand is the number of times I have to get into a heated argument to convince people not that Shaquille o' Neal was great, but how great. He seems to be, like, weirdly slipping in historical conversations. And I think some of it is just like other recent players, other guards, kind of like supplanting his place in the NBA order, where there are just some forces of nature you had to see to understand. And Shaquille o' Neal is maybe like, the version of that for our lifetime more than any other favorite player.

[A]

Do you think that's just because of what he is as a personality on the TNT set? And, like, all these stories coming about, like, he pooped in this guy's hat and this guy's shoes and those other stuff.

[B]

I don't.

[C]

Don't do that. Don't poop in people's hats or shoes or anything.

[B]

Just on absolutely appalling stuff from Shaq. Holy moly. But, like, it. It feels similar to what our parents, or maybe even beyond do when they talk about Wilt. This is just our version of that is like, I just. Yeah, I frequently, you know, because I'll. I'll play pickup even with, like, a range of, you know, young, younger dudes who will get talking about. And they'll always be, you know, they do the whole. Your generation's never going to admit that. That LeBron's the go, like. And I'm just like, well, you're not wrong. But Shaq, man, I mean, just.

[A]

That's startling.

[B]

Like, shaq had, like, 50, 60 pounds on, like, Embiid, you know, it's. It's like people just don't. People can't process it. And I think you. It's going to be one of those things. I frequently find myself in that position where I'm like, yeah, you just had to see it. He's physically probably the most dominant player of all time, other than Wilt, I would say.

[C]

I think some of it is he's just an archetype that. To the extent he ever was an archetype, like, he just doesn't exist anymore. There is no thing to map Shaquille o' Neal onto in the modern NBA, short of maybe prime, like, peak of his power. Stephen, in terms of, like, you have to plan every single time you play for this team. And if you're thinking you're going to play the warriors in the playoffs, you better have three guys on your roster who can chase Steph Curry around. It's probably the closest we've gotten. But the physicality of that is just so different.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, Giannis is the closest thing that we have. And I remember at the peak of Giannis's powers, when he was winning MVPs, there were all those stats about, like, how much he was scoring at the rim. And the whole thing was, like, he was, like, kind of getting close to Prime Shaq, but hadn't got there. And so it's really, like, kind of mindboggling for me to think, like, how do you. How do you poke holes in Shaq's effectiveness? Because he was just such an overpowering, like, beast that we haven't seen before. I guess it's that. I guess it's just There isn't really a modern comp. And if you're thinking more about the skills and three pointers and the Steph Curry of it all, like to see this big old guy, you're wondering like, oh, how would he apply to a modern context? Well, like, he probably wouldn't be as big. He probably would have had to give more of a shit and he would have been like Giannis. He would have just played probably more downhill attacking and still been a pretty big menace at the rim.

[C]

Well, plus, I feel like the way we have a lot of these historical conversations is, if not zero sum, kind of close where, I mean, Kyle, you brought up Pippin. It's like to make the Jordan Goat claim, you kind of have to diminish Pippin a little bit, or at least you don't have to. But the conversation kind of tends to turn that way. And if you're going to make the Kobe arguments, then you got to take some shots at Shaq along the way or at least kind of deprioritize what he means historically in order to make it. And there's a lot of those arguments around, like people are making those claims, like, that's a player who means a lot to a lot of people. And so long as that's the case, I think Shaq is going to be kind of like in the shadow of it historically in a way that does not square with what I saw. But clearly people disagree.

[A]

All right, that's it for us for about a month here. Anything else you guys want to hit before we reconvene next?

[C]

What are you going to do with yourself, Justin?

[A]

I have so many house projects lined up.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Got the bathroom. Finally pulled the toilet the other day. I bought a kit to make a screen for one of my windows that doesn't have a screen. So it's getting wet and wild here. I got the garden off and going. I had somebody, as we were going through the emails for the mailbag, wondering long ago, like, what we were going to call our live segments from the Garden. He suggested Live from the Garden, which I thought was pretty.

[B]

From the garden is pretty. Yeah.

[A]

There we go. Well, I think garden guys is really the branding here with the Z. I like it.

[C]

But Kyle, are we garden guys?

[A]

Absolutely. You can be.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

I would like to be. But this is your show.

[B]

I'm not saying I'm closed off to it. I'm just saying I'm not going to present myself as that because I'm not the garden.

[C]

Every plant I touch, it's about the

[A]

garden, but it's also about the garden of the mind. You know, it's for a safe place for guys stuck in the loneliness epidemic to come together and be guys with the Z together, you know? And so this is a good opportunity to launch my new substack garden. Guys, calm. Yeah, actually the first post is up now. It's about composting, but not just composting in the garden. Composting your life. You know, taking that shit and turning it into something positive.

[B]

Okay, that's beautiful.

[C]

Do we get a comp subscription or do we need to pay for this thing?

[A]

No, you have to pay.

[B]

No free rides. No free rides.

[A]

Garden guys dot com. Check it out.

[C]

Free ads except for non existent substacks.

[A]

It's. You can look at it right now.

[C]

All right, go for it.

[A]

All right, on that note, we'll be back when we're back. Probably in a month or so. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Stefan Anderson for filling in on production. We'll catch you next time.

[B]

Hey, guys.

[D]

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