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The Ringer NBA Show
The Warriors’ Old-Man Strength, With Nick Friedell. Plus, the Rolling Rockets, and a 2026 Draft Crash Course. | Group Chat
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- [00:00]
Justin Varier
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varier and well at least to start with, you got just me a little bit different on the show today. We're going to go first to my interview with Nick Friedell talking about the Golden State Warriors, a team that's been pretty lively over the course of this NBA season thus far, but this past weekend one of the better back to back series with the Spurs. All the consequences of that series, the Wemby matchup, what's going to go on with the spurs down the road, deadline, all that type of stuff. Awesome interview with Nick, one of my former teammates at espn. So check that out. And then we're going to go with Kyle, talk about the Rockets, who are fast becoming one of the more fascinating contenders in this early going Reed shepherd, his guy. We'll talk a little bit about him and then he's going to walk us through a draft crash course for the 2026 NBA Draft. Already starting to see some prospects on the floor. Darren Peterson, AJ DeBonsa, who got by UConn by the way, just an FYI over the weekend. So he's going to give us a little meet and greet basically to all the guys you need to know about. No Rob this week, but Nick up first, Kyle in the back. That's the pod. Why don't we get to Nick right now after we hear from our sponsors. You're listening to the Ringer NBA show presented by FanDuel. FanDuel now displays your bet directly on your phone's lock screen and with the latest updates to the live events and player pages. And it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri. Get excited because FanDuel's coming your way December 1st. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus in present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.
- [01:51]
Kyle Mann
This episode is brought to you by Indeed. I couldn't imagine doing this show by myself. This podcast is as great as it is because of the awesome team behind it. Find your own incredible team by using Indeed sponsored jobs. 3.3 million employers worldwide use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs and a lot of them get results. Sponsored Jobs helps your job post stand out from the crowd and reach the right candidates faster. Try it out. Build your team with Indeed Sponsored Jobs.
- [02:15]
Justin Varier
Listeners of this show can get a.
- [02:17]
Kyle Mann
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- [02:59]
Justin Varier
All right, Joining me now, I would say the Haley Williams of the Golden State warriors beat from the athletic, Nick Friedel. What's up, buddy?
- [03:09]
Nick Friedell
Oh, it's good to be with you, my man. Yeah, Steph was, Steph was looking for the right comparison. And then I remembered as he said that he was the Hayley Williams of the group, at least in San Antonio, that he was on stage with them at a concert. He went up and was singing with them. So I think that's what popped to his mind in, in the way in which it did in the last few days.
- [03:35]
Justin Varier
That's right, because he was also seen at like a Benson Boone concert like last year. And so like, I don't know how much you know about this, but is Steph just like a closet like mom at this point in terms of like his musical taste?
- [03:50]
Nick Friedell
I mean, he's got four kids, so he's in the car all the time listening to a whole bunch of stuff. So hey, Mr. Verrier, whatever he's doing is working. So whatever he wants to listen to and whatever he wants to go through, more power to him.
- [04:07]
Justin Varier
He was unbelievable over this two game set against the Spurs. The games in general were just so, so awesome. It's one of the few instances where one of these baseball series I think actually works because a lot of times the superstars will sit one of them. But we got two clashes. I think Steph had 46 and 49 in there. Let's start with just like kind of big picture about these games and the significance of it. If it really feels like Steph and Draymond in particular, but the whole team really gets up in order to protect their corner, especially from the new up and coming sort of team, but also the new guy in Wemby. Does it really feel like that to you when you're, you're seeing these things live?
- [04:48]
Nick Friedell
If the warriors have any kind of success this year, we will look back on that Wednesday game in San Antonio is a gigantic turning point because Justin, in Oklahoma City, they got demolished, they got Crushed by the best team that there is. And they knew it. And then Draymond said, not everybody's committed to winning. And they lived in that news cycle the next day. And you're going, oh, God. Well, now they got Wemby on the second night of a back to back. I mean, Kerr after that Thunder game was like, I don't know if, if Draymond's going to play in San Antonio. He's been playing a lot of games. He's been playing a lot of minutes. We need to kind of rest him. And he said Draymond talked him out of it. And Draymond was awesome defensively in those two games. As awesome as you can be against Wemby to get Steph to play at that level in those two games. Second night of a back to back, he really still isn't feeling great, which is the craziest part of all of this. That game, the first one in San Antonio, was gigantic. For them to go the next couple days later stay there and win again against that guy, it was huge. And I think it's something that they know can stabilize what was really, really rocky earlier in that week.
- [06:13]
Justin Varier
It's crazy seeing Steph out there. You forget at times that he's 37. I think because of the flip side of the babyface assassin thing. He doesn't look that old. He looks closer to 30 than he does to 40. I also think, like, LeBron is probably normalized what we expect from a 37 year old. He seems like he's at the top of his game, but you could feel the stakes in the history, especially whenever he and Wemby were kind of matched up, one, it was him like baiting the crowd basically at, at the free throw line. But also when he steps back and Wemby has the outstretched arm on, on the three point line, it just. You see the clips afterward, comparing it to the, the Olympics and all that, like, does it feel like these games like you're watching history unfold? Because from afar, like, you can almost feel the stakes as they're happening.
- [07:02]
Nick Friedell
You could tell that it meant something extra to both of those guys. And what I would tell you, having been around Steph long enough, is he knows full well what's. What's happening. He is incredibly aware not only of his surroundings, but who's on the floor, what everything represents. So I don't think it was lost on him at all that he was able to have those kind of performances on that stage against Wemby. And I'm sure he was Given a little reminder of. Remember what happened in Paris. When the warriors needed the biggest moment to date of the season, Steph provided it. And Justin, he's still that good. I think the comparison with LeBron is always going to be there. Those two have carried the league and been the faces for so, so long, but LeBron isn't that good anymore, not to the level we're used to seeing him at. Steph is very much at the top of his game, and he may not be able to do it every single night the same way, but he can still do it a hell of a lot of nights. And to see the confidence that he still gives everybody else out there on the floor is unbelievable, because they know they've got the baddest dude that there is on their team. And when he gets rolling. Jimmy said it again after that Wednesday game, say to Tony, he said, you know what? You know, I got everything good. You give Steph the ball, and you get the hell out of the way. Give him the ball. He'll make it happen. If he doesn't have the shot, he'll create the space for everybody else. But being back around this team this year and seeing how they operate around him, it's no wonder that they feel as confident as they do, because Steph is still that good, and he's still making everybody else around him that better.
- [09:03]
Justin Varier
I'm glad you said badass, because there does seem to be an air of crustiness going on with Steph that he probably hasn't had before. I wonder if part of it's true. Just like the compounding effect of having Jimmy and Draymond kind of trickling down to him, but also, like, he's of that age where you get to be a little bit crustier. Does it seem like that to you when you're around him? Like, compared to perhaps when you were covering him before a couple years ago, does it feel like it's not quite villain? Because I don't. He's just such a ray of positivity. He can't really quite be that. But at the very least, there's a certain, like, don't forget about me sort of swagger to him right now.
- [09:41]
Nick Friedell
I mean, if we. If we're using the words Mr. Barrier, this is the best way I could put it. Steph is still the baddest motherfucker in.
- [09:49]
Justin Varier
The game.
- [09:51]
Nick Friedell
And he wants everybody to know that he is well aware of where the. The challenges are coming from and what can happen night to night. But he's still that dude now. And Steve Kerr said this repeatedly. Jokic, in a lot of people's opinion, mine included, is the best player in the game.
- [10:13]
Justin Varier
The.
- [10:14]
Nick Friedell
Steph's a bad motherfucker. When you have that kind of guy who's ready and available on some of these nights where they need a lift and they need a little extra reminder. I absolutely think he loves that because he knows that at 37, a lot of people are going, Steph, he's about run his course again at the top tier level. But having been around him for so many different points of his career and then coming back and getting dropped in this year, this guy is just. He. He's unbelievable. But it goes back to what you were saying earlier. I think in seeing him, he preps himself for this. Like, it's not that every other NBA guy is in good shape or doesn't care, doesn't take care of their body, etc. This guy puts in so much extra work to make sure that he hits that level every day. And what I go back to, for context is we're in LA in the preseason, and everybody was getting out of. They had a practice at the USC gym. Everybody's leaving the USC gym, and instead of going right out to the bus, Steph takes a left, and he walks into the weight room that the USC men's and women's teams use. And it's just him for another hour going through every routine he's got. And I'm thinking, at 37, he could easily. Everybody's got friends in LA. You know this better than anybody. There's. There's dinners and there's lunches, and you got to go meet with agents or whoever. That dude on a Saturday, as everybody else is kind of doing their own thing, takes a right into this room, and he puts in all this time. And that's where I always give him the credit, because at this stage, he doesn't have to do that, but he consistently makes the effort because he knows what he represents to the team and he knows the standard he set for himself.
- [12:20]
Justin Varier
So he tweets after this game, which I didn't realize that Steph tweeted anymore. And it doesn't seem like he does a lot of it these days, but it was a nice little photo collage. I have to imagine someone on his team did that. And he wasn't out there stitching that one together, just kind of punctuating not only the event and the win and all that.
- [12:37]
Nick Friedell
Just.
- [12:38]
Justin Varier
Also, one of those cells had to be the Kobe shoes that he warmed up and didn't end up wearing them on the court. A little weird to see him out there in Nike, considering the history. And if you don't know about that story, like, go back and read all of that about how they kind of didn't give him the proper respect. He ended up in Under Armour, and here we are. What's that like playing out kind of in front of you? I guess it's kind of like a tangential thing, but in a lot of ways, it kind of like, symbolizes where we are at this time, where it's like, yeah, we are past the point in his career where the Under Armour, the good old days of. Of the KD Dynastics sort of thing. But, like, there's this, like, new thing happening here. And so do you think it's, like, when you're around it, does it feel, like, weird?
- [13:25]
Nick Friedell
I wouldn't say weird, because the culture has been set within this organization for so long, and Justin has been set because of Steph. Anytime you talk to Steve Kerr, he says the same thing. The reason we are who we are is because of Steph Curry. And what I would tell you is the reason I don't think it's that weird. As far as. Are there changes. I mean, it was weird as hell. Seeing him in Nikes, in those Kobes, that was very strange. And admittedly so. He said, I know everybody's used to seeing me in my shoes, and. And he wanted to make sure he had those shoes that. That represented Kobe and Gigi. It was a very cool moment. But it was strange. But I mean, from a broader standpoint about the team, I think with STEPH at age 37, anybody who comes into this organization, and I notice it from Jimmy, not only because I've covered him for so long, so many different stops, but certainly in the framework of this team, they don't want to disappoint Steph Curry. It's like he has set this level so high. They want to make sure that he is getting everybody to go and work at the same level that he shows every day. And there is such a respect there. And it's different than any other veteran I've seen who leads a team, because there's always a leader or two on every group. This guy is just at a different level because of what he represents to the game. And in this case, for so many years, what he represents to the Bay Area in general, which is so much deeper than the warriors at this point, but the tone he sets and the leadership style he displays is. Is crucial. I Mean, I think Draymond is very clearly the vocal leader, and he's probably the emotional leader of the warriors, and he still is playing at an incredibly high level. But the guy who sets the tone every day is Steph. And it goes back to so many people get used to Steph flinging up threes from all over the place and he's hitting these crazy shots and, oh, man, he's really fun. It goes back to work. Steph puts in the work all the time, every day, and there is a respect from his teammates and the coaching staff and the people within the organization that see it all the time.
- [15:51]
Justin Varier
Well, let's talk about Draymond and Jimmy here, because the two of them together working in concert to basically whip the team in order is is something to behold. From afar before Draymond, obviously, I think clashed with the young guard because the two timelines thing just put them in such opposition to each other. But also the message seemed to, like, land to a certain extent, oddly enough, with Jordan Poole more than anybody. And then it didn't, but it seemed. Is there any different now with Jimmy kind of backing Draymond as, like, a hardliner? Like, do you feel like the younger guys are receiving it better, or does it actually create more tension? Because now there's two guys basically trying to do the same thing and force them into the way that they want to do it.
- [16:38]
Nick Friedell
I think there is a going to be a better answer months from now as to just how well everybody responded to, again, that moment in Oklahoma City, the corresponding moment in San Antonio. But what I would tell you right now, Justin, is I think everybody responded pretty well because I walked into that locker room in San Antonio the other night, the night after getting crushed, I got crushed by the thunder, and I thought, oh, God, here we go. There's going to be tension. There's going to be a lot of people saying or not saying a lot of different things. I walked into that room Wednesday and it was very upbeat and it was very positive. And you could tell early in that game they couldn't hit a shot to save their life, but they were playing hard and everybody was coming together. So to the point about Jimmy being there and being kind of that other big brother protector for the group, I think that helps, certainly to a point, get the messaging across. But I think Draymond got the message that he wanted to and it got through, and it's very clear in the way they've responded now. Will that continue? Will there be some other kind of blow up down the line? We'll see. But what I would tell you again, I was juxtaposing Draymond and to a much lesser extent, Jimmy the other night saying what they said, and Jimmy and Dwyane Wade saying the younger guys have to play harder to the Bulls of about, you know, nine or 10 years ago, and all hell broke loose on that team. That was the Three Alphas team for those that don't remember. And I, I don't expect anybody to, to have that one jump out to your mind. But just for, for fun backstory, the next day after Jimmy and Wade said what they said, Rondo came out with this very long Instagram post defending all the young players. There would be practices later in the year where on one side of the floor, here's Jimmy and Wade, on the other side of the floor is Rondo and every single other guy. So it can split completely when you have people call out each other. I don't think it's going to split here with the warriors, though, because there's so much respect for what has been built. And it goes back to what we were saying. I don't think anybody wants to disappoint Steph Curry. And when you know that, and that is at the forefront of every decision that's gone on, I think Draymond delivered what he felt was needed. It got through and they have responded well since then.
- [19:19]
Justin Varier
Yeah, it's a little different when it's Steph than Rajon Rondo. One, but it also feels like Steph agrees, but these guys are almost like his underbosses, taking care of the dirty work so that he can just kind of go on and do what he does. What was odd about all of that was not only that Draymond continued to talk about it on his podcast and whatnot, but it seemed like, come on.
- [19:41]
Nick Friedell
Now he's gonna say whatever the hell he wants.
- [19:46]
Justin Varier
That's right. He's taking the threads these days. He's doing all of it. He's multi platform this guy now. But what was odd about that was it didn't seem like Kaminga was at the center of all of that. He kind of went out of his way to say it wasn't Kaminga. And so I guess it's more of like, do you get the sense it was more like a Bajemski thing or, or anyone in particular? Or was it just more just like generally how they were playing?
- [20:09]
Nick Friedell
I think if you're leaning in a direction, Justin is probably you're leaning more towards getting the messaging through the pods. But I don't think it was so much like anybody wasn't playing hard. I think it was more. Pods did several interviews leading into the season where he kind of said different stuff, and I. One of them, I know that caught some attention was Pajemski saying, you know, he wants to earn the trust of Steph and Draymond so that they can go down the line a few years from now to Joe Lake of the warriors owner and Mike Dunn leave at the GM and say, hey, we want to leave kind of the keys to the car with Pods. We believe that he's earned that right now. I think this got lost a little bit in the shuffle of social media and the aggregation nature of it. I actually think Draymond respected the point he was trying to make in that I want to work hard enough and be good enough, that I can maintain the standard that these guys have set. But that kind of went crazy all over the place. And then, you know, I think Pod saying that he can be the. If he had gone the baseball direction, he could be the White show. Hey, in. In pitching and hitting, I think there were some more eye rolls. There was another press conference where. And again, this is where context kind of gets lost here sometimes. But Pods gave an honest answer, and this is in front of all the reporters. And he said, you know, a lot of guys say they want to be as good as Steph Curry, but they don't want to work as hard as Steph Curry. And actually, Justin, it's. It's what we've been talking about all along in our conversation. And then one of the reporters said, do you want to be as good as Steph Curry? And Pod said, I want to be better than Steph Curry. In the moment, I understood what he was saying, that he wants to work and continue to grow and be better than Steph. But I think, again, in the context of social media and when it gets popped out in the quotes like, yeah, I want to be better than Steph, I think a lot more people were looking around and going, oh, boy, all right. So all of that is to say that, yeah, the young guys, it's all kind of coded. I think that it's more, keep the focus on the game and whatever you have to do to help us win that night's game. That's what you need to do. But there was so much context that I thought got lost in that conversation. But there's a reason Draymond said what he did. He was frustrated the group wasn't playing well, and they responded. And again, plenty of teams they can just fold and they would have kind of curled up and like, well, it's a really bad week. I don't know if it's going to go well for this team. They didn't. And I think right now as we get set for the next month or so, everybody's on the same page and whatever tension had been there has come.
- [23:29]
Justin Varier
I don't think it helps Brzemski in particular, but perhaps Kaminga and all the young guys in total to have Will Richard there because he's such a Steve Kerr guy. He just does exactly what Steve would want from a role player that it almost is a, a good person to have in, in the rotation, but such a bad example to, to kind of juxtapose these guys against because they all want to play the role to get somewhere else. Where Richard is just seems happy to be so streamlined there. He's now in the starting lineup. We'll see about the starting lineup. I'm a little not sold on it long term with Moody Richard and the Big three. Seems like more like he's trying to send a message about the style of play than anything else. But I also think it's tough when Kerr is like, he can't hide the fact that Pachemski just like gets under his skin so much. Like I, I often wonder sometimes when I'm watching this all play out, like if there was the purge and if that was like a real thing, if Kerr would, would kill Bridget, you know, like would you take the opportunity to do that? Just he' just not his type of guy.
- [24:36]
Nick Friedell
Well, what's interesting there is the player I would tell you who Kerr has gone out of his way to praise the most since the season started is Pajewski. So I think that there's some something there that Kerr knows he needs to pump up the confidence of any younger player, but especially Paz, who really wants to be great clearly in what he says. And Justin, this guy is incredibly confident. It he just hasn't started off the year the way that they would like, but I think he has shown that he can do different things to fill in the gaps that they need. To the point about Will Richard, I think you are spot on. This is a guy at the end of the second round that I don't think a lot of people are expecting much from. And early in camp, Kerr and those veterans are like, hey, this dude's pretty good. Now every rookie hits a wall, it's going to depend on matchups and how things look. And I'm with you Do I expect him to stay in the starting lineup the rest of the year? I think that'd be a tough sell right now. But he's really solid and he knows how to play within the framework of what they need. A lot of young players struggle with that. We go back to Kaminga. These guys really like Kaminga. Why has Kaminga struggled so much to find a role and get the rhythm that he needs is because for four years prior to this year, he just hasn't played in the warriors style the way they want. He wants to play one way. They around Steph play a different way. I think early in the season, he. He was playing pretty well. That has slowed now. He's hurt. But Will Richard fits what they need. And that's something that, for any player that comes in, if you can show that you can run the floor, that you defend well, that you can make the extra pass, the small things lead to the bigger things, and the warriors really, really love the way his game is coming together.
- [26:38]
Justin Varier
Speaking of Kaminga, are you sold on, on the reborn Kaminga experience, or are we already starting to see signs that, you know, he was already out of the starting lineup, he got hurt, and so that helps kind of perhaps push that to the side. I imagine when he comes back, I. I assume he'll be coming off the bench. But, like, do you think, like, the early start that he had where he looks so good playing in the flow? We were at that Portland game together, just kind of marveling at how he was able to be himself in the midst of the. The warriors context. Like, do you think, like, he's turned the page, or do you think he's starting to go back, slide into the old command?
- [27:17]
Nick Friedell
I think the answer is somewhere in between. And what I would be very nervous about if I were the warriors is he looks so good early in the season, and he was doing all those little things that we were just talking about. He's rebounding better, he is running the floor better. The defense was there. He's mentioned several times at camp he's passing a lot better. Justin, for two weeks, he was really good. Then for like a week and a half, he wasn't very good at all. And he's missing shots and you're going, oh, so is he a future warrior for years to come? I don't. I just still don't believe so. That would surprise me. Do I think that they move him at the deadline? There was so much speculation about that. We'll see. But I don't believe that the, the new Version that we saw can maintain itself for months and months. What I would tell you, though, is, and this is why it's going to be very interesting to see what they do here in the next couple months. If they are legitimately feeling that they have a chance, which they do, and people roll their eyes when they hear that, or come on, not really. Steph's got to be incredible every time. I'm just telling you, this team legitimately believes they have a chance to win a title this year. They're going to need Kaminga or needs somebody to do what he does. I mean, he's so athletic and he has all these different skills. It just hasn't come together the way everybody had hoped going into year five. So does that mean that you move him at the deadline and get some other pieces in? Does that mean that you ride it out and you say, hey, he can really help us? Let's just see how that goes. That's why Mike Dunleavy in that front office do the job that they do. But as I watch, if I were betting, which version do we see? I'm not buying that the version that we saw in the first couple weeks is the version that will maintain itself throughout the year.
- [29:18]
Justin Varier
Yeah, there's such a push and pull too, because of those older guys. You've already seen them having to drop out at various times, and I assume that's going to continue throughout the season. Al Horford, another one of those guys, is just kind of compound that Melton, who knows what we'll get from him. So you almost need the younger bodies to trudge you through the rest of the regular season. On the other hand, I agree with what you're saying. Like, I do wonder at a certain point, especially considering the number that Kaminga's at, if it's just they're better off consolidating and just finding the best possible version. I, I It seems like a more of a couple months down the road sort of conversation at this point, because I imagine they'd want to stack as many wins as possible before they really ride the lightning and try to go with a shorter bench. But do you think that's, like, where we're headed ultimately, or do you think there's a pathway where it's just like, Kaminga plays so well, they can't replace him with anybody or some of these young guys, they finally find them? Or just for the sheer fact that, like, you need minutes from, like, more than 10 guys at this point, with considering the ages of these guys, I.
- [30:20]
Nick Friedell
Think the answer to your question, there is, if you're believing the warriors can do it, or at least contend this year, push into the Western Conference finals. Let's say, Justin, you're believing that Moody and Pajemski in Kaminga can take a bigger step than what we've seen. I think Moody has shown that when he's hidden from the outside and his defense is there, he can really help them. Pods has struggled early, but the belief within is there's still another level he can hit. As always with the warriors, it goes back to Kaminga. So if you were trying to figure out what may happen, I think in the best case scenario for this group, Kaminga comes back whenever he's feeling better. And I don't think this. This knee stuff is anything to really worry about, but they've held him out a few days and they want to be cautious early. If you're believing the warriors can do what they want to do this year, you're believing that Kaminga can really hit a different level of his own. I personally would be surprised if that happened, given what we've seen already this year, kind of the ups and downs. But if he does, then the conversation that you and I are having two or three months from now completely changes, because you can only rely on Steph and Draymond and Jimmy for so long, and if you get them healthy to the playoffs, great, then you have a legit chance to do anything. If one of those guys goes down for any long stretch, that's a big, oh, they just don't have enough. None of those other guys can do what they do. So I think Kaminga is the key to all of it. I would just be really, really surprised if he can be for them what they need him to be, because I think what we've seen is, at 23, in his fifth year, he wants to be a very good, very respected player. I don't know that what he wants and what they need fit each other at this time.
- [32:27]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I would agree with that. I also think it ultimately might be a Jimmy conversation, because that sort of raw, visceral power that Kaminga brings, Jimmy has that in his own way with being able to manufacture free throws, which has become such a critical component to what these guys are doing in just such short order. I guess there is the muscle memory from kd, being able to get his and go kind of ISO and break from the beautiful ball movement, that Jimmy kind of slides into that role. And in just his own separate way, it seems like he's going along with the program. I mean, he's only missed the one game, so we'll see if, like, the injuries that he typically has dealt with over the Miami period of his career start to pop up again. And he's gone for weeks and months, and there's all that element to it, but it seems like he's bought in for at the very least. I mean, you've been around him probably more than anybody else, and so you could probably get the sense of, like, when he's about to erupt and start to take this thing a different way. Like, do you think that's even within the realm of possibility, or is he in such a good place right now? It's like, that's not even part of the conversation, Justin.
- [33:31]
Nick Friedell
It's always in the realm of possibility because of the years that have gone on. It's always going to hover.
- [33:37]
Justin Varier
Right.
- [33:38]
Nick Friedell
And because it's happened at every place seemingly at some point. What I would tell you, haven't been around Jimmy for so long, I don't. I don't think it will happen here. That would surprise me. Jimmy, first and foremost got paid. There is a respect for Jimmy Butler in getting the contract that he wants. Miami did not want to give it to him. Okay. That was their decision. The warriors gave him that two year max extension that he was looking for, that he comes into a structure. And I think this part is crucial. And it's very interesting as we go through all these different layers here. Jimmy has never been on a team where he had a Stephen Draymond. He had built what he wanted, and then he's got all these younger players that want to be very good and want to put in the work. Plenty of people wanted to work in Miami, but Jimmy didn't have a Steph and Draymond to kind of bounce things off of. There is a respect that he has for those two that I've never seen within the framework of a team that he's been on. Go back to the Bulls. He went from the 15th guy on the bench to wanting to be the star. And Derrick was still there. Derrick Rose. And Joe Keane was kind of the emotional leader. And there was a budding of. Of heads between Joe and Jimmy that got cleared up over the years. But that's what. What that was Minnesota with Towns and Wiggins. He wanted them to work, he wanted them to be there, he wanted them to put in more time. Especially with Towns, I was like, I. I don't trust that this guy's going to be, you know, a key piece to a title team here, and then he goes to Philly. He was there a second. That didn't work. And then Miami, it really fit because the culture fit what he wanted with the working, but they didn't want to pay him that next deal, and that's where everything kind of splintered away. So I think what people get lost in with Jimmy is what he was looking for was the respect that came with the money. He got it from the warriors, and that's why I laughed when I was like, oh, Jimmy and Draymond. Oh, there's a. A respect there. I like. Jimmy knows what. What's going on here, and they let him do his own thing. He can. Gotta come and go as he wants, but they know when he's there, he's gonna work, and. And he knows that they're gonna work. And that is the tone. That's Steph set by Steph. So I would be very surprised, Mr. Barrier, if we talk down the line and there's some sort of explosion the way there has been and all these other stops, because the money given got the respect that was needed to make everything work. Once he got into the framework of his team, everybody went, okay, this is going to fit. Now, basketball wise, as you said, Curtis said, he's a stabilizer. He plays a different style, but he can get to the line. He fills in gaps that they need. What I want to see is healthy Jimmy and healthy stuff in the playoffs. And how does that go? Because that was not obviously the case at the end of the postseason last year.
- [36:50]
Justin Varier
Yeah. I mean, Steph and Draymond are always going to be just natural compliments, and over time, it seems like that effect is only compounded. But, like, Draymond and Jimmy just feel like kindred spirits in a certain way. And you think, like, perhaps there's just too much of that machismo, frankly, that, like, it might just spill over and just hurt everyone around him, because Lord knows that Draymond's own just definitely get some shrapnel on the. The people that he needs the most, frankly. But so far, it's just like. It just seems like it cancels each other out and almost like it overlaps in, like, a pretty special but also, like, scary way, I would say the.
- [37:29]
Nick Friedell
The deep cut reference. And maybe it's good for the ringer here. Maybe some people understand where I'm going. But Mighty Ducks 2, Mr. Barrier, you had Fulton Reed and you had Portman, and they were the Bash Brothers, and they were like, oh, yeah, we're going to. We're Going to mess everything up. And I feel like when I watch Jimmy and Draymond coexist, they. They kind of see each other for who they are and they respect the hell out of the fact. I mean, Draymond was the second round pick. Jimmy was the first or the last pick of the first round. But nobody was expecting him ever, ever to be what he became. Nobody ever expected Draymond to be a Hall of Fame guy who basically created his own position and carved it out of nothing. There is such a respect between those two dudes that I'm with you. I mean, does the craziness cancel out? I. If there is some kind of big problem between those two, it would be the most shocking thing to me about all the different. The parts of the warriors that could combust at any moment. Those two respect the hell out of each other, and they both respect the hell out of Steph Curry. So there's your flowchart right there. And I have always believed, as Jimmy has grown in his own success through the years, he was best served in a 1A position. In other words, not the face of a team that was going to potentially win a title. Although anybody who hears me, especially my old friends in Chicago, say he got the heat there twice. Yeah, but he couldn't get them across. I have always thought, as he worked his way through and earned everything he got in his career, that he was kind of that secondary guy. They say Batman and Robin out here. I think he's perfectly suited for where he is. But is he going to be able to raise the level of his own game when they're going to need it the most? Not just in the regular season, but of course, in the playoffs. Because, Justin, this is where it all goes. We can go through every different layer of the warriors, and there are always going to be hundreds of them throughout the year. It is all dependent on our Steph, Jimmy and Draymond healthy going into April and May. If they're not, none of it matters. It does not matter because they're not good enough the way they're constructed. And they may not be good enough anyway. I mean, Oklahoma City is incredible. I don't think they're beating okc. I don't think they're beating Joker in Denver either. But if one of those three is not feeling very good going in the playoffs, they have no chance. So I for one, am not going to overreact if they go into the tank a little bit again or. Or something starts to kind of feel like it's breaking apart because I want to see if those three can be healthy when the games matter and if they can, it's going to be really fun to watch much.
- [40:27]
Justin Varier
Now I'm just thinking about who the Goldberg of this team is. Is, is it pods? Is it moving?
- [40:33]
Nick Friedell
Oh my God. I wouldn't put that on pods. I mean Goldberg, man, I don't, I, this is, this is good. I, I, this is actually going to get a good conversation out. Like if you lined up the Mighty Ducks, maybe the original Mighty Ducks and then you go into D2, which I didn't think was as good, but there were some interesting and characters who plays what role within. Because like you'd like to think that Steph is Charlie Conway, but Steph would spin circles around Charlie Conway. Charlie had his moments but I mean Steph is, Steph plays the role of Charlie Conway, but Steph really is Adam Banks because he's this talented, gifted, all everything player who can kind of do whatever he wants and that this is a, this is a good exercise here.
- [41:22]
Justin Varier
Well, Kerr is definitely a Bombay type. Oh, maybe not like oh yes. But more of like a beach town like version of it. Maybe like the more woo woo version of Bombay. But he's an interesting figure in all this too. We should talk about him because as we're talking about other Bulls team, I thought it was interesting you wrote about this. Just that he's starting to evoke the Bulls of past in a way that he probably hasn't previously. I mean the fact that he didn't sign an extension over the off season is something of note. I'm sure he can get one whenever he wants to at this point. But the fact that he didn't take it definitely I don't know, at least from afar adds some stakes of like could this just be his personal last dance? If only like maybe the other guys go on and he's just had enough of this. But like do you get a sense that that matters at all as they're charging through the season?
- [42:09]
Nick Friedell
I do not. But I'm with you that it was at least noteworthy because Dustin, if Kerr wanted the extension, I mean get whatever he wants right now from the Warriors, I, you know, money wise, whatever. That relationship is so solid with Lacob and Dunleavy. You know, he wants to stay, he'll stay as long as he wants. I personally have always believed that Steve will stay as long as Steph is there. He knows what he represents Kerr to Steph and Steph knows what Kerr represents to his own career. So it would very much surprise Me, if Kerr exited before Steph left or was done just because of the respect between those two guys. Having said that, the more I watch this year, and again, I can only speak for myself personally, the more I've always felt, and I know it's there's two years and everybody's lined up. I keep feeling like this is the last great chance that they have. And again, I'm sitting here telling you the second week of November, I don't think they're beating the Thunder, and I think they really struggle against the Nuggets. But I don't see how a year from now, everything gets that much better. This is the team that they have. Maybe they can make a move with Kaminga. We'll see. And what happens after that, I'm not sure. When you listen to what's being said and you hear the Kerr invoke the Bulls references that Steph was talking about the other night, I just feel like this is that last great chance that they've got, and that's why Horford is here. You know, Horford hasn't looked very good early in the season, but Horford wasn't brought in for, you know, the regular season. Horford was brought in for those big matchups in the playoffs. So I think the comparisons are very interesting. Kerr lived it with Michael and Scotty and all those guys. He knows what it takes to play at the highest level. He respects the hell out of Steph and what Draymond have built. And here's Jimmy, this fascinating character in all this, who really does want to win a title and wants to kind of change the narrative that has circled his own career. So it is really, really an interesting team. But for me, I don't see how a year from now, things look better than they do. To me, this is the last chance for them to potentially ride out in the sunset and find the magic one more time.
- [44:51]
Justin Varier
I think you just give Steph a chance. I mean, we've been saying it for years as they were toiling through the two timeline thing. @ the very least, there seems to be a recognition that, like, if you just give Steph as much as we possibly can at this point, he could do good things. And we saw this past weekend just like how spectacular just the regular season of Friday night, just in the. In the NBA, can be just when he has enough in order to go toe to toe with one of the better teams in the league. All right, let's wrap it there. Nick, thanks so much for joining us.
- [45:22]
Nick Friedell
It is always good to be with you Buddy, and I would leave you with this because you've listened to me bitch and moan about the regular season for two and a half years in my little hiatus here. To see Steph play at the level that he was at in San Antonio in those two nights, but especially even Friday, Friday, 49 points in some game, you know, the same second week in November. It is a reminder of just how much importance he has to the league. He has built this huge brand and he's been this figurehead with LeBron for so long, but to sit there and see in the arena in San Antonio just how much he still means to the day to day operations of the NBA. Anybody who gets a chance to go see that dude should take it. If you're a basketball fan, it is a different experience watching him compared to watching anybody else in the game right now.
- [46:19]
Justin Varier
Yeah, we were in Portland together and you go up to the, to the seats like 40 minutes earlier and I'm like, what are you doing? And you're like, you got, can't, can't take advantage of a Steph game. You got to go watch him warm up and all this other stuff. It's special just, just being like in his presence at this point. It really does feel like one of the few things in sports that's really appointment viewing. You can't miss any, any sort of big matchup with him. So. I agree.
- [46:42]
Nick Friedell
It is, buddy. It really is. I appreciate you having me and it's good to see you.
- [46:47]
Justin Varier
All right, it's Nick Friedle. Read him on the athletic. One of the best guys doing this right now. I'll see you in arena, hopefully soon. Thanks, buddy. Always the Ringer. NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. Get in on the NBA action at any time with live betting on FanDuel. From the first whistle until the final buzzer, FanDuel is your home for live betting because FanDuel is giving new customers $150 in bonus bets if your first $5 bet wins. So just visit FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to sign up today. Play your game with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA, 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. First online real money wager only. $5. First deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets which expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See termsportsbook.fanduel.com Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chat in Connect this.
- [47:45]
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- [49:16]
Justin Varier
All right, now, joining me, Jay Kyle Mann. We're going to talk some draft stuff. Give Kyle a little room to to isolate here, a little meet and greet on some of the best prospects. Yep, you're used to it. But first we got to talk about the Houston Rockets, who are rolling and thankfully they, they won the game that we were kind of hoping to tee us up here. It was a bit of a mud pit. They had to go into OT to do it. But unlike the Spurs a couple weeks ago where they fell flat on their face against the Suns, we get a nice big win to talk about one of the most exciting teams in the league. Isn't that nice?
- [49:52]
Kyle Mann
It is, yeah. I spent a lot of time the past couple days like really digging into what makes the Rockets interesting. And as I, you know, thinking ahead that maybe we talk about them. And I was joking with Justin that, you know, I don't gamble. Not a gambler, but I was like, it is a funny thing about. Whenever you plan to talk about something, you do gamble because. Because if they come out and shit the bed like the spurs did for you guys, you know, a week or so ago. But cnba, man, there's guys in and out of the lineup you never knew. Orlando's got some odd stuff going on with. They kind of looked fluid, weirdly without Paolo and Suggs. So I know we talked about them in depth, but man, yeah, that was a heck of a game. There are a lot of different storylines.
- [50:32]
Justin Varier
Yeah, it's more of just like the momentum you go into the conversation. Because the Rockets have enough of body of work at this point. This was just. They're on a terror. Nine of their last 10. They won, practically won every game since we last talked about them to open the season. And Reed shepherd in particular has been on absolute fire. And so I know that's your guy. We want to talk about them. But just in totality, what have you thought about the Rockets? Just because the west is kind of formulating as we're going along here, we're going to probably talk, I think, big picture about some of the contenders. We're due to talk about the Nuggets, the Thunder, probably the Pistons, some of the really good teams that are revealing themselves as we're going along. But Rockets are kind of a curio. And I'm starting. I'm starting to see the vision here.
- [51:21]
Kyle Mann
I think that the marquee here for this team is that this is a 90s basketball team that has just been claw machined to 20, 25. Because the reason that this, there's obviously the rebounding and the punch you in the mouth down the stretch, man. I mean, Isaiah, we were joking about it before the show. I mean, Shingoon. I have a couple of thoughts about Shingoon. I have many thoughts about Shingoo, but Shingoon and Adams, they just have tractor beam hands. If the ball is around the basket, it's just like, how did he grab that again? I don't know what their hand measurements are, if it's hand strength. I don't know if they did the thing that they give guitarists, you know, where you're like supposed to. You know what I'm talking about? They advertise, Callus is going, yeah, yeah, yeah. I never, I never did that one. But, but, but, yeah, Shingoon. Also, I wanted to add, I wrote down in My notes and underlined it shin goose because he kind of runs like a goose.
- [52:14]
Nick Friedell
Okay.
- [52:15]
Justin Varier
It's an interesting place to start. I started.
- [52:18]
Kyle Mann
We should get that in there. No, my, my point when I say they're a 90s thing is obviously the rebounding and everything like that. But the, the way they are approaching generating offense is kind of amusing because before the season we kept talking about the way that this team was going to play and as if they were going to be forced into this just disadvantaged approach where we were like, oh, God, man, they got it. Follow this template that teams play. I don't know why this hypothetical person that talks about the NBA as a country, a rural person, but they are in this scenario. But so we were just like, well, who's going to fill the. You know, I even wrote something about it. I was like, who's going to fill the pick and roll? You got to fill the pick and roll. You got to play pick and roll. What are you doing if you're not playing pick and roll? And the Rockets were just like, nah, man. We got a couple single coverage monsters on this team. I wrote this down. JV this third few is pick and rolls per game. At 13.7.7. They are the second most in the league at ISO possessions. They are not getting many screen assists at all. So basically what they're doing is they're just saying, we got two dudes that can go get it at any time. We're not going to involve ball screens. We're not going to let you get us and we're not going to worry about the switch thing. We're going to go try to attack it and whenever you come to help, we're going to create an open shots. And they've made a lot of hay with that. Surprisingly.
- [53:33]
Justin Varier
They're absolutely mashing on the boards right now. They have coming into tonight's game, 41.2 offensive rebound percentage, which I don't remember ever seeing. 40%. I can't imagine that's going to stay the entire length of the season, but good God, both of those guys are just enormous. And it's not just the hands. They're just. They're made of like steel. Like Adams in particular, we know. But Sengun is just like all like bottom half, you know, and so it's just like, I guess if it works. But I think the thing that's been most encouraging is they've almost been able to blend that into whatever else they have going on here where they're shooting the lights out right now. I can't imagine that's going to stay the entire season. Like, virtually everybody is just drilling it, including Shen Goon, including Joshua Kogi, who all of a sudden is in the starting lineup. So that's probably going to fall off there. But the way that they're just incorporating what Reed does without breaking, breaking who they are, the way that they're just kind of able to turn to Kevin Durant in these big stakes moments like we saw tonight, it just feels like maybe it's just the sheer fact of having an identity and being able to layer on top of that, but they've been able to kind of shape shift depending on what they need, and that's why right now they're number one with the Bullet offensively.
- [54:45]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I was going to say a big part of this too is that I, I thought of this in the moment and wanted to look it up. I, I was, I was like, I would almost bet my life that now, now they're kind of doing a thing that's similar to Miami in that they're taking the ball screen thing out of it, except it's different. Miami's hitting you with these almost like pitch and go dribble, drive type things to like attack advantages. Like they'll just attack and rotate and attack and rotate. Miami's like, no, we're going to just bludgeon you. Bludgeon, bludgeon, bludgeon. And then get the offensive rebound. Like they, they're kind of piecing it together in an interesting way where you're talking about them shooting the ball really well. They're really not taking. It's the types of shots that they're generating. It's a lot of one, two, catch and shoot type of stuff. Yeah, they're 29th in the league right now in, in dribble, pull up threes. So they're not taking a ton of those. So it's an interesting way that they're, they're piecing it. Yeah. Because you know, their transition efficiency that they're giving up is kind of high, but they're just kind of like we're going to get, get it back in the, in the, in the totality with all the offensive rebounds that we're going to get.
- [55:46]
Justin Varier
Yeah, it's like every single person has a set way of playing, but it's all kind of working right now. So. So like they'll go often to Shen on these post ups and like tonight they weren't working all that well. And I have to imagine being a Rockets fan living and dying with every Sengun post op is probably pretty nails on a chalkboard because sometimes if he's not hitting those possessions just feel like waste. Even though he's so good just working off of everybody. But then it's just like Katie still gets his, his mid range shots to go. Amen is still playing off the cut and he's working more ISO into that whole thing. He wasn't good tonight, but I don't know, it just, it just feels like everything is clicking right now. And we should talk about the fact that Reed on top of all of this feels like he's slowly starting to figure this out. He's shooting the absolute lights out and that's a big part of it. You saw on tonight when they ran that play for Sengun in order to send it into overtime, he was facing basically to have court and Bane had to follow him because that's how good of a shooter he is. But there's just a level of confidence with him right now and you're seeing it kind of filter into how he's playing where he's pulling up from deep and he's also pulling up regularly, which I think was a concern I had going for like with him. Just because this team, I think Odoka is prone to pull guys a little quicker than some other coaches. Especially if you're not bringing a defensive end. It seems like they're playing through him and letting him be Reed. And it's been great to see because he has such like the maybe like a Steph Curry type of like positivity that I think filters down to everybody else. Feels like the guys love when Reed is going off.
- [57:17]
Kyle Mann
Oh yeah, that organization adores him. I mean every indication I've gotten is that the players love him, the staff loves him, the front office loves him. He's just a, he's just kind of a smiley, go happy, go lucky kind of character in general. Like you know, low maintenance personality from everything I've ever heard about him. But I think for him to stay on the floor, you did see, I will add, I mean I think there was a, there were some sort of playoff visions of what could happen where Orlando was big enough to sort of challenge. Granted Shingun was missing some shots. He started to make them down the stretch. We were talking about him like bullying and just bludgeoning with the ISO post thing and Orlando was like, we're going to single cover this. And it worked for a lot of the game and then. But, but I think another thing that you saw was Franz I wrote down on like it was like five or six possessions in a row, which just like, give me the short guy. And he just went after Reed over and over and over and over. And you saw Houston go to this like, 2, 1, 2 zone kind of look. So they're trying to protect him. I think it's a balancing act basically for him right now because, you know, Reed, I don't think it's the type of ball handler. He's just not. He's not a surgeon who can sit out there and pound it and take pressure. He's going to like, get on the ball, get off the ball. It's a lot of using him. And I actually, sometimes if I'm. If I'm really, really trying to pay attention, close attention to a team, I'll start diagramming things in my little notebook here.
- [58:42]
Nick Friedell
O.
- [58:43]
Kyle Mann
But I'm not gonna act like I'm that level tactician. I'm not, but I. Patreon, maybe I have a lot of panels here where that was a really. That was a poppy piece. Sorry. I have a lot of panels here where I. Reid is just like in the corner of the diagram basically over and over again, where if he's making those shots, you basically have the luxury of playing four on four because he's just, you know, and he can make those shots. But it's funny, you see how confident he is. I mean, just the little. The little smile he had after. After he hit that shot on Bane. Granted, Bane. Bane came back and just like clubbed him in the head. What's going on with Bane?
- [59:22]
Justin Varier
Bane is really going for like villain of the year at this point. Maybe. Maybe like Dylan Brooks wasn't the real guy there in Memphis. Maybe Bane had a little bit to do with it because he's really become a guy who's like ready to get in the mix all the time. You saw with Redid triple, we should mention. And so it wasn't like completely unprovoked, but yeah, he did hit him in the head.
- [59:42]
Kyle Mann
I mean, clubbed him. It was. You could tell he was just like, I don't know, maybe he's like, I'm sick of this little squirt. I don't know what that was about. No.
- [59:50]
Justin Varier
I mean, you can see how the size disadvantage is going to come to bear. And I wonder in higher stakes games, and this was perhaps a microcosm of that, we're going to see teams try to take advantage of him. I mean, that's just as plain as day. Doesn't have the size to do it. Any team in a playoff series is going to pick on him. So we'll see. But on the other side, it almost feels like the overall size advantage the Rockets have provides him at the very least to at least go against players who are more like size. Like you have to give put your all of your size on all the other players in the Rockets because they're just enormous. And so Reed is left often going up against like the Cole Anthony's of the world, the Ryan Rollins. If you look up all of his matchup defenders, it really is like the smaller guys and so it's a one way like the Rockets can feed him and so he could bring out the best in that. Another big factor too is like a lot of his success is coming from afar. I do wonder and I'm curious what you think of his ability inside the arc because he only has nine total free throws on the season. He had two tonight hit seven coming into the game. So I think that's going to be a big factor in terms of just his overall effect. So it's like, it's very encouraging where we are right now, but clearly there's like still room to explore the depth to make sure that like he can lock down that fifth spot in high level situations.
- [61:08]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, it's, it, like I said, it's going to be tricky and there may be games when they get into the playoffs where we see very little of him. I mean I think it's going to be that. I don't know that we're going to graduate to the point. I don't know if he. I was joking with Bill about whether or not he can lose the rich kid Reed label. We'll sit. Time will tell. I don't know the optics but he's, he's really, he is an interesting thing where, and I talked about this a lot going up to the draft and saw it a lot at Kentucky where he doesn't like shake and bake and get wide with his dribble on people. He just kind of like up fakes with his head and shoulders and uses that to kind of get into the mid range and then he surprises you with that, with that, that little elbow jumper that he shoots because he can really elevate. Yeah, he's just kind of a positive ad. I mean against that Portland. That Portland game was really interesting and I'm sure you were watching that one where his minutes were. The minutes where they separated, where they had those kd, kd Reed Tari didn't play tonight. You know, who knows how much of A difference that would have made against Orlando. But yeah, they've had some kind of interesting lineups that they thrown against some of these bigger teams and. And he's. He's been a part of those.
- [62:12]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I think it's especially to have. It's nice to have, like, his buoyancy because Tari is typically the one. Just because he's such a maniac. I think that energy starts to filter down to everybody else. He's going to be out four to six weeks now because he has this oblique strain. And I think this is kind of where we find out the depths of, like, what the Rockets can do, because I think when at full strength, we haven't even seen them at full strength because we haven't got even Dorian, Vinnie Smith out there, Fredman Vliet out to start the season. I think, like, they're gonna have to plug some holes. They basically played seven guys tonight, and it's only gonna get tougher. I think the big question for me is how long can Joshua Kogi keep, like, nailing down this starting spot? Because it's so funny because we talked about so many options about how they fill the Fred role, and ultimately the fifth starter ended up being Josh Okogie, this journeyman three and D guy. And so on the one hand, I get it because Adoka, if he's going to lean anywhere, he's going to lean toward the defense, and Adoka has just been lights out shooting it. I can't imagine that's going to stick the entire way. And so I do think there's going to come a point where Reed is just such a. Such a. Like a spur to everything that they're doing. I do wonder if they have to turn to him in the starting lineup. Or do you think, like, he's such a. The defense is such a problem that, like, he's better off playing second units. Being able to take advantage of second units and maybe steadily growing to that maybe long term.
- [63:37]
Kyle Mann
It's tough because I don't. I don't know if you're going to have the luxury of fully leaning all the way on him as like a full starter, minutes kind of a thing. I could see him playing like, with maybe it's not a full wholesale substitution kind of thing where he's playing with like a couple of the starters, which I think is what we saw against Portland. So I don't. It's. It's going to be tough because if they do lean on him all the time, yeah, it's going to become a thing where he's just getting picked on constantly. And. Yeah, I don't. Are you one of these people that says strength? I really kind of flagged on that. Are you one of these people that leaves the G out of strength? Jv.
- [64:12]
Justin Varier
My. My New England shows up in. In various ways. Like, I'll say leg instead of legal.
- [64:17]
Kyle Mann
Oh, boy.
- [64:18]
Justin Varier
But, I mean, I didn't. I grew up in Connecticut. We didn't really have, like, a thick accent, but there's certain words sometimes, like, you put the chowder in front of me. And, like, it just. It just comes.
- [64:27]
Kyle Mann
Strength is one of them. That's a. That's a Connecticut thing. Okay.
- [64:30]
Justin Varier
Or not being able to enunciate. I don't know.
- [64:33]
Kyle Mann
I mean, I'm one to talk. I told Megan yesterday over dinner. I was like, I'm so rural that I genuinely forget which it is, was, or were at times. Like, I'll be like, man, we don't. I just don't. It's not a lot, but sometimes, anyway, I just. I heard strength and I just had to. I had to say something. I'm sorry.
- [64:50]
Justin Varier
I will say the Rockets are looking mighty strong as we go through here, but like I said, that was masterful.
- [64:58]
Kyle Mann
Thank you.
- [64:58]
Justin Varier
Yeah, thanks. Thanks. This next stretch, I think is going to be able to. So the third in the west right now. OKC is absolutely just like boat racing. Everyone they face, except for Portland. And we talked about that Portland game a couple of weeks ago. They were around with the rotations. They barely had anybody. They probably could have won that game if they didn't play Brandon Carlson so many goddamn minutes. So they could easily be 140 right now. But Denver looking equally mighty. Rockets are right there, man. They just need to be able to trudge through this next stretch. I don't know what Dorian Finney Smith's status is, but I'll say this. I think there was some. Some consternation when Fred went down about whether or not they could, like, hang with these sorts of teeth if this was going to be more of a bridge season. But they haven't missed a beat. I think it's probably a big question now of how much you change things on the fly in terms of, like, making a big trade. But as is, I think they're just going to rattle off regular season wins.
- [65:55]
Kyle Mann
I don't know that I would at this point. I mean, if you. If you could reasonably not take a bite of your. Out of your identity and get like, a player that you think could immediately add to what you do. Because, like, we said it's. It's not super dynamic. A lot of it, A lot of it depends on Shingoon. If Shingoon has a crappy night or if he's playing a team that can single cover him pretty well. Kd, they do. They do a little bit more with him. They'll do these kind of double, like, wide pin downs to get him with some momentum and get him. But Kate, God, kd, tonight I was like, how old is he? Like, he just looked. I was worried about them stressing him at times, and he just carried them. I mean, early in the first, he like a chase down block. He was getting to his spots whenever he wanted. Um, granted, I, I felt like he let Shangun carry it a little bit more. But you mentioned okc. I mean, that. That matchup in particular for Reed is. Is really, really tough. Yeah.
- [66:51]
Justin Varier
I think the question is really, how much does KD put them on the clock this season? Do they say, actually our future is our future? Right. Katie is just some guy we're going to have in this interim, and we'll make the most out of our window with him, but we won't completely give ourselves over to his timeline. I think. I think that's a pretty reasonable outlook. On the other hand, as we've seen time and time again, like, windows are what they are and they can be fleeting. And I do wonder if you look down the road, if we're already talking about, like, hey, Reed's been great, but, like, playoffs, I don't know. I. I think you have to at least have the discussion internally. Jabari Smith, someone also to flag here. He feels like so important to stitching together lineups because he is so big. I've also loved, like, his willingness to go after block shots. He's gotten like, jammed on the past two nights, including Shaden Sharp, just like completely posterizing him. But that guy is always getting into it and, and I appreciate that sort of attitude, especially with younger guys who perhaps are trying to protect their image. He's so important to what they do structurally. But at times I'm also like, when is the. The plus player that like, you know, was picked what it was his second or third in the draft a couple years ago. He's someone to flag, too, because that's the other part of this. It doesn't have to be Reed that they trade. It doesn't have to be Tar Eason that they trade. There's just so many guys on top of guys that they have here. They have options.
- [68:15]
Kyle Mann
I think they'd Be crazy to trade Jabari just because I think he's sort of a key to their lineup flexibility. Like just having a four out there who can catch it high. He doesn't need much time. He's a good team defender. Granted. He's not going to do a whole lot. I know we were joking about him do it. Doing the like Derek White to Jabari to Trey to Palo sort of analog thing. I mean that. That was a fun one. But I just think he's. It's so important if you have a guy like that who's a good team defender who can do that and he's not. Granted, I mean if he's. He's not going to give you much creation at all. But I'm with you. I like guys that's. I like guys that put it on the line and we'll try to block a shot because it's just kind of like whatever. It's two points. You know, it's two points. Just go out there and anybody who's willing to put it on the line and put. And put themselves in harm's way, I'm a fan of.
- [69:04]
Justin Varier
It's a 90s smash mouth mentality, baby.
- [69:07]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, for sure.
- [69:08]
Justin Varier
All right, why don't we slip now to the 2026 NBA Draft? You are our resident draft X, but you're watching these things somehow watching both NBA basketball and all the requisite college basketball in order to have opinions on these. I'm very much a casual. I would say I'm just someone who's like keeping an eye on these sorts of things in order to be able to basically have a segment with you on this. So we've already seems like though the 2026 draft class has already kind of taken hold of the zeitgeist. I'm curious what you think because the general perception is that this class is just going to be an all timer.
- [69:46]
Nick Friedell
I.
- [69:46]
Justin Varier
We kind of hear this a lot about draft class around this time, but do you think that this one is particularly good, especially in comparison to even last year, which seemed like they had a lot to it?
- [69:56]
Kyle Mann
I do, I do. There's a lot of talent. I mean there's sort of a hard three at the top and it's going to be interesting to see if anybody can. There was a whole lot of. I mean there was a lot of discussion this past weekend about whether or not Cooper would have been in that group. That was a fun one I felt compelled to chime in on. I just think he would. And it's funny that like I can't imagine this class, if he were in it, like, we'd be talking about at the top. It's the failure rate. The failure likelihood among these top three, I think is. Is pretty low. Like, I really, I don't see them busting. It's just kind of a. How high do you think it's going to fly? And I think the discussion over the course, it's always this way. When you talk about the three. I think it traces like philosophy when you're trying to figure out if. If these are the decided top three and they could go in any order. I think it's just going to reveal people's philosophy in a way that I think was similar to the Palo Chet Jabari draft where there were people who were kind of talking about like, I value this over this and. And people landed in different places. I landed with Chet1, as I've said a bunch of times. But yeah, this class, as it stands right now, I'm still, I'm still leaning Peterson one. I had a moment this summer where I was like, man, I just, I love a lot of. About Cam Boozer and we can get to these guys. Debons a play last night against your Yukon Huskies. But I think the, probably the smart way to go about this is not to just storm. Storm in and just assume that people know who they are. I think we should just kind of start from who they are and I guess let's just work through it that way.
- [71:28]
Justin Varier
Absolutely. So the top three, you're referring to. Darren Peterson of Kansas, A.J. debons of BYU and Cam Boozer of Duke. Let's start with Darren Peterson. I was watching a little bit of him in a game against a guy we're going to talk about a little bit later with Caleb Wilson and unc. They ended up losing that game. But I gotta say, like, I didn't know a lot about Peterson. DeBonsa has just been much more of a public figure over the past few years. Probably because of all the stories about him going to BYU and almost preceding that by going to prep school in Utah. Probably because I talked to you so much as well, and you've been talking about bounce up for a little while there. But Peterson has been almost like kind of in the background at least. Like, in terms of, like, I didn't even really have a clear vision of him. And so I was struck by immediately when I was watching that game, just how sophisticated he was. Like, it looked like he could run an NBA offense like tomorrow.
- [72:17]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I mean, Darren Peterson, for people Who? Don't know. Let's just talk about the body first. Right? That's a creepy thing to say. Six foot four without shoes.
- [72:28]
Justin Varier
Say it like that.
- [72:29]
Kyle Mann
You do? Yeah. Saxophone under that. Guys. No, I mean you catch yourself talking about, you hear people talk about players, it's just like Jesus, that's weird. Yeah. Six, four without shoes. So good size for a lead guard. Six, nine and three quarters. Wingspan eight and a half by nine and a quarter inch hand. So if you'd see the kid, I mean he's just built like he's jacked. He looks like, gives you sort of visions of, of like an Ann Edwards like Rust type body type. Like just very, very built in the shoulders. He's, he's twitchy. I don't know how much of that you notice with the ball. Like for, for me, I haven't landed on a comparison for him so much yet, but he has that just. He plays in this sort of upright way and his light on his feet kind of plays on his tiptoes but he when he is like jabs towards the rim with. And a lot of that's kind of get to his dribble, pull up stuff. He's kind of in this realm between like a Dame, Lillard, Donovan, Mitchell type guy. Like he likes to get to his dribble, pull up and he's just so quick with it. I don't know what I mean, what else stood out to you? I mean what, what sophistication specifically stood out to you?
- [73:42]
Justin Varier
It's funny you mentioned Dame because you're right, Dame came to mind in. Or something about like maybe just the confidence and the ease with which he like moves through complicated sort of situations. But it's not 100% correct. But the thing that really jumped out was two things. One was just the, the general sense and awareness while he's snaking in the pick and roll. There's just like this air of, of confidence you can see from guys who really know how to work it where they're feeling contact and then even when the space is confined, it doesn't feel like they're rushed. And at least in that game, this is only a one game sample for me it just felt like he kind of understood that. But then when he's off the ball, like it seemed like he could equally navigate those spaces where he's constantly moving. And so he just feels like a modern like engine of an offense potentially. Where you could play him on, off, he could be a guy driving the pick and roll like big, like big Time offense or you could play him off a superstar. And that versatility, as we've seen, is just like so crucial, especially for some of these teams that are picking at the top of the draft, because you might end up with two of these type of guys.
- [74:43]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I, I don't want to get ahead of myself and what I think about these guys too much, but I would be pretty surprised if this guy is not a hub of an NBA offense. I. He could play next to a superstar. Like, he's capable of being a catch and shoot guy. He can come off a pin down, shoots it with movement. Granted the shooting thing, you know, this past year he played for a school called Prolific, which AJ this is a school that a lot of guys kind of come through. AJ Played two years. That's the school that AJ Moved from Brockton, Massachusetts across the globe to Napa to play for. So they get a lot of guys like that and they have a lot of guys right now, actually, they moved to Florida. Anyway, I digress. But he, the shooting was kind of a question for him and it's really come around. But the thing for me now that I'm going to be watching over the course of the year is he has that when he gets to the rim, he can finish through contact dunk on people. He's very physical, like you said, he's got deliberate in the lane right now. He's, he's, he's hunting the shot more. Granted, he's hitting a lot of them. I want to see him get to the rim a little bit more and show some of the playmaking stuff because I think he's, I think he's capable of it. But you were talking about A.J. i mean, I went the, the fun thing about this group of guys is that they've played each other repeatedly. So they don't, you know, they don't duck. They're very competitive. I drove three or four hours to watch AJ And Darren play last fall against each other. And they're like guarding each other. They're really competitive. So I think that's another positive too at the top of this class is you're getting a bunch of mfers, like in a Cooper where there it'd be even more. But it's, it's a really competitive group in that way.
- [76:17]
Justin Varier
Yeah. It's funny you mentioned that because Peterson, as far as I know, is like almost the same age as Cooper, which, like, to your earlier point about where would Cooper fall in this, like, that's something to keep in mind that he's Basically of this age range. And so, yeah, I definitely think he would have been high amongst these guys as well, based on my limited knowledge. Is Kansas just like, is the rest of the team just not as good as some of these other ones? Because there was one point where like, he was basically telling everybody off the ball where to go. And on the one hand, it's great to see that he has that sort of like, knowledge in order to do so. On the other hand, like, they, they kind of got run off the floor in unc. We should mention it. It was like it was in Chapel Hill. That's a really tough environment to play, like game number two. But at the same time I was like, huh. Doesn't seem like the rest of his team is around the same level as him.
- [77:02]
Kyle Mann
This team, this Kansas team is going to go as far as Peterson carries them. Right? You, you're, you're astute. I mean, North Carolina is a little bit older across the board. Like they're a little better than I thought they were going to be. But Peterson, after he checks out of the game, the on off numbers are going to be pretty funny to watch because they need him on the floor. And right, right now he's nursing an injury too. So that's a big problem for them. They do have another guy named if people want to look, check this name out. Bryson Tiller. Yeah, not that guy. But he's a big played for overtime elite, I think last year. But he's a really interesting player if people want to go on a YouTube dive.
- [77:41]
Justin Varier
So Peterson out for a bit with the hamstring issue. But you would say right now, as it stands looking on track to be the number one guy.
- [77:50]
Kyle Mann
Yes, but it is close and we can talk about these other guys. And why is that, why that is.
- [77:55]
Justin Varier
Okay, you want to talk about DebonSA next?
- [77:57]
Kyle Mann
Yeah. Yeah. So he's. He's played a little cat and mouse with, with the way his name is pronounced. We'll just say that out front.
- [78:04]
Justin Varier
Well, what is it?
- [78:06]
Kyle Mann
Well, no, somebody. Tate and I were joking about this. That at McDonald's All America. They, he. DeBonta told him it's DeBance. And then on BYU's website, I don't know if they're just messing with people or they're just deciding because you got to make this decision for the rest of your career, whatever it is. On BYU's website, they have little clips that you can click where it's in their voice. They pronounce their names. And he says to Bonsa. So anyway, Devonta is, Let me just, we'll rattle off the, the measurements here. Devonta, 6, 9 and shoes 611. Wingspan 9 and a half, 9 and a half inch hands. So yeah, this past year he was at Utah Prep. For his senior year he's at BYU now. The comps for him, you're, it's a little tricky because people have brought up guys like Paul, George, Tracy McGrady, bigger ball handlers who can really score. I think that both of those guys are a lit, have a little bit more of a facilitator gene. Had it a little earlier than he did, but AJ is like exploring that. AJ's a big time, like he leans scoring more. In my opinion, he's a tough shot maker. There's a lot of debate about like what kind of an athlete he is. That's something that, that we're hearing a little bit more like he's, he's not as twitchy as Peterson, like not even close. But he has kind of a slinky, odd pace way that he moves. Because if you asked him who he plays like, he said that he plays like T, Mac and Shea. A blend of those two players, huh?
- [79:35]
Justin Varier
Okay, well, it was an interesting comparison to him and Peterson because again, just watching the one game and I watched the Yukon game most recently over this weekend, and it seemed like Peterson, he was the sophisticated one. DeBonsa just seemed pretty chaotic. Just seemed like a lot of what he was doing was just like pure skill, like pure athleticism, just natural talent. And it lacks some of the refinement that Peterson had there. That's one thing. Honestly, I'm curious just overall in watching these prospects and something that I'm confused as an NBA watcher, like how much to really put an emphasis on sophistication versus someone like the bons, who's 18, just like in his first college sort of action, feeling things out. But like he had the rough start to the game, first half, barely scored and then kind of shot out of a Cannon in the second half. 21 of his 25 in that game. A lot of those shots though were like just tough shot making rather than the process in order to get clean looks. And so I don't know, I was left a little cold just watching him, but obviously it was a one game and early in his career.
- [80:38]
Kyle Mann
I, I, I'd parse it this way, where you talking about sophistication in terms of processing the game and playing in that facilitator role. I think Darren's a little ahead of him. I think Cam Boozer is actually a better passer than him also, but I think we can get to some of the other guys another time. But DeBonta, I think he does have a lot of sophistication and polish in the way that he goes. Pursues his own. I just think that the question for him over the course of this year that I think could possibly cause him to unseat Darren, if you assume Darren is in the top spot, is his ability to. In that first half. He has a lot of those tools to get to his own offense. He's been able to do that his whole life. What I've kind of observed him do. And I made a video if people want to go check it out, just to check in on where he was last fall. He can get into these degree of difficulty like I can. I can churn milk into butter in any situation kind of things thinking that he's a teammacker and he's very talented scorer. But UConn last night was luring him into that and I think that that's something for. He was just kind of like wanted to. You know, you want to. It was. He was in his hometown, wanted to have a big showing, wanted to go off and you saw him kind of BYU season I think is going to be really. And his, his. His case for the number one pick are going to be driven by him fully embracing his superpower. Because, you know, we're talking about Houston using their isolation talent to sort of create. You know, it's not just about what you create for yourself, obviously. It's like, how can you get. He's going to be able to create a lot of open shots for BYU if he doesn't dribble three or four times a possession, if he gets off of it. And that's something that I'm really going to be keeping an eye on because when he's. When he embraced that in the second half, he started to play a lot better.
- [82:23]
Justin Varier
Yeah, there was one play in particular where it was on the fast break and he kind of. He got right up to the rim practically and the defense collapsed and he found an open shooter. And I was like, oh, where's more of that? And so as an NBA kind of watcher of these guys, maybe it's just more about his teammates and that. But I almost wonder like, is it. Do you want to see guys being able to make tough shots because that's an elite trait, or is that just a bad habit? Because if they're taking tough shots and not looking for the better Shot. Are you looking more for the impulse?
- [82:56]
Kyle Mann
I mean, if you're seeing guy. We saw this with Ace Bailey last year, you definitely want to. If you're seeing a guy whose diet is very difficult all the time, you're like, okay, well then maybe you start to wonder about their process. I don't worry so much about AJ's process because, like, he had a play where he got walled up. I forget who was even guarding him, but he reverse pivoted back to his left hand. Like, he has a lot of stuff like that.
- [83:18]
Justin Varier
I think it was Cariban. Yeah, he was at a standstill, like, spun off it and then like stepped through. And I was like, how, like, how did this human do that? So, yeah, he's clearly an athlete. He definitely has something. But going against Yukon, you know, tough. It's tough. They have a lot of defenders and like, and they are drilled. They, they are structured in a way that's going to cause someone to, to struggle in this sort of situation.
- [83:46]
Kyle Mann
Hurley was cracking me up, man. Like, the cameras caught him over and over again because Hurley was just. Every single time AJ had the ball, he's just doing the, like, just trying to get the travel. And at one point they do, they do the cutaway to him and he, they caught him clearly yelling, he's not in the league yet.
- [84:02]
Justin Varier
Like, basically saying, she, like, literally has problems.
- [84:08]
Kyle Mann
I. Yes, he seems aware of them though. I mean, he seems like he's part of the battle.
- [84:14]
Justin Varier
Yeah, yeah.
- [84:14]
Kyle Mann
No, I mean, I've heard him talk earnestly. I'm like, yeah, he seems like he knows who he is. Yeah. As long as you work on yourself. Right, right. So, no, the other thing about AJ that really I, I've enjoyed and it's something about this class in general is they're two way players. Like, there's no one really in this group that is like, you're not going to have Reed situations. Granted, Reed's interested in defense. He's just at a huge disadvantage with his body. I'm just saying these aren't guys that you're going to have to motivate. Because when I really kind of. When I really, really got into AJ and was like, he won me over for real because I saw him play. I saw him play at a game when he was a sophomore just down the street from us, from where I live, which was an unusual setting to see like NBA talent of that caliber, because we're hicks, we don't really brush our teeth or wear shoes. And he, he was just taking a lot of Tough shots. And I was like, okay, I kind of see the vision. And then I saw him again a year later, and they were in this just meaningless game in the. In something called the Grind Session, which is you. You're. That's safe to Google. It's basketball. He's just guarding the ball like an absolute maniac. Like, he's somebody that really, really likes to play defense. You're not going to have to convince him to do that. So that's. That's something that I really like about AJ Also.
- [85:31]
Justin Varier
So caught AJ when they were in Portland for the Hoop Summit. You were there as well, and Cam Boozer was probably the other standout from that event. You made the comp, I believe, to me, first of Kevin Love. And just from a body type, this guy looks like he's a brick house. And so I definitely see it. I don't remember Kevin Love when he was in college running pick and rolls and then like, coming off of screens and like, catching corner threes. And so perhaps this is just like the modern game, but being able to see a guy like that do this stuff, it kind of blew my wig back.
- [86:05]
Kyle Mann
Perhaps this is the modern game, Justin. Perhaps it is. Yeah. I mean, Kevin Love obviously always could kind of do those things. I mean, if you think back, I don't know the thing, but think back about, like, 2014, Kevin Love, the things he was starting to do. Yeah.
- [86:20]
Justin Varier
I mean, Kevin Love, yes.
- [86:22]
Kyle Mann
If you think about who he was when he was playing for, like, 008 UCLA, he was a little beefier. Granted, Cam is a lot better athlete, but I think the thing for me is fledgling shooter, very smart passer, great outlet passer. And then just the technique is something I've yammered on in my draft kind of social videos on and on about, is that I would just say he shovels dirt on people because the. You know, Kevin's dad stand very.
- [86:48]
Justin Varier
You.
- [86:48]
Kyle Mann
You just see the. These kids just kind of get this education early, and whenever they go up against kids who have not had the same education in terms of technique and things like that, Cam just destroys them. But the thing is, he gets the lane. He's just very. Has a great pet presence around. Around the. The rim. Just every. Every technical footwork move in the book, Soft touch, great rebounder.
- [87:14]
Justin Varier
But.
- [87:15]
Kyle Mann
But to me, the thing that is most exciting is that just that I think. I think. Do you want to talk about, like, some matchmaking, about who they just kind of project to fit with?
- [87:23]
Justin Varier
Yeah, because, like, well, I think DebonSA vs. CAM is interesting. It seems like that's kind of a debate forming if you assume that Peterson is number one. And it seems like it's almost a difference of the Bonsa just seems like kind of a freak athlete versus Cam is probably a little bit more technique driven as you were saying, but maybe the athleticism isn't at the same elite level.
- [87:44]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, yeah. Devons is interesting too because when I was watching him, I guess it was in their game against Villanova, if people want to go check that out. When he was in the lane, he was decelerating and changing direction in this really funky way, which is where I started to think more about the Shay thing. Like, like, I think if he, if he, he can't. He is vertically explosive. Like he can get up and posterize somebody, he can dunk on somebody, he can go through people, get around them. But I, I think he's not a like 0 to 60 sprinter type athlete. Like he's not, he's not going to just like dust people with just brutal absolute speed. He's somebody that, I think if he embraces that, that technique and takes that technique that we were talking about and just kind of leans into that and expands upon it and slows down, punishes people, I think he could become more of a monster. But it's like for them, like for a match. If I were playing matchmaker for AJ debon. It's interesting because Boozer, we'll start with Boozer. Boozer is more of a universal donor for me just because necessarily need the ball to, to affect offense. But if you're looking at the bottom four right now, we'll just go by that Indiana or who has the best odds. Granted we saw Dallas kind of took a big shit on that last year, so it doesn't really mean anything. But Indiana number one, Washington two. Brooklyn three. New Orleans four. New Orleans four. That's going to Atlanta. And then Sacramento was five. But I think if Indiana found a way to get a hold of Kim Boozer, that would be hysterical.
- [89:19]
Justin Varier
I mean, yeah, it seems like they're going to do it too because this season is basically punted at this point. They were getting into the, the injury exceptions in order to sign 10 day guys quicker than I think I've ever seen in my entire life.
- [89:33]
Kyle Mann
Yeah. And you think about the way that they like to play. You could just throw Boozer in there and he's not gonna. I don't think they're going to miss a beat. Like, like imagining Halliburton and Boozer together gives me basketball hot Flashes. I don't know. What's the word it gives me. It makes me really happy. I didn't want to say boner. I didn't. You know, I didn't want to say it was like ed medicine for basketball. But it makes me. It makes me really excited. It makes my desk. My desk just went up a little. No, it's. It's. No, I just think it would be. If you think about the stuff that. I just think their IQs together would be really, really something. But I also think that Boozer would be amazing. I thought that he would fit with Charlotte really well, but Charlotte may have. May play themselves out of that conversation. We'll see. But Washington is another one that I think would be really interesting for them.
- [90:28]
Justin Varier
So perhaps a team that already has the athleticism that he doesn't need to bring that because he's just so smart, he can affect the game in other ways. Whereas, like, if you need that jolt, you're probably looking for DebonSA. Is that fair to say? Yeah.
- [90:43]
Kyle Mann
I mean, Devonsa is going to give you a big scoring jolt. The thing is, if you're going to lean on Debons, it'll be a creator. Like, let's say Brooklyn gets the number one pick. I think I would just go into that assuming that, like, Cam Thomas and Michael Porter Jr. Are not going to be a part of whatever we do. I. I just mpj two games in.
- [90:58]
Justin Varier
A row with seven assists, my friend.
- [91:02]
Kyle Mann
On those two games, I'll completely reform everything I've ever thought. Yeah, that. That would be. That would be interesting. I just think those three guys. Maybe AJ Would embrace it. Maybe the fact that they drafted five guys who like to pass the ball would be a stabilizing force for that. But, I mean, if you. If you're just looking at the other teams here, I mean, Sacramento, I'm sure, would love to get a chance to have A.J. deBonts, New Orleans, you know. Yeah. God bless their hearts.
- [91:31]
Justin Varier
But Elena. Yeah.
- [91:32]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, Atlanta. It'd be interesting to see how Devonsa would fit in with. If you already have Jalen Johnson, if you already have recess, do you go ahead and take him? I would assume, yeah, if he's on the board at three.
- [91:44]
Justin Varier
But, yeah, I would assume that Boozer overlaps with Johnson more than DeBonsa would, just because it seems like Boozer's destined to be a four, whereas DeBonsa seems like he has a little bit more flex positionally.
- [91:58]
Kyle Mann
It depends on if you think if Boozer can. If he can have, like, four or Five, switchability in the way that some of these guys do. I mean, if you're looking at his. Let's pull his measurements here. Six. He's six, eight and a quarter without shoes. So he's not gigantic. So you're right. But it's about £250. And not crazy long arms either. Seven, one and a quarter wingspan and hands are. Yeah, okay. But yeah, I actually think Washington is the most interesting team for. For Boozer right now. Because if you imagine playing him with some 2, 3, 4 kind of switchability with. With next to SAR, I think it could be pretty interesting if you keep Koulibaly in there. I just think he would do wonders for, like, Bub Carrington and Trey Johnson. I think that if you put Boozer with those guys, it would make their lives so much easier.
- [92:46]
Justin Varier
Poor Keyshawn George, you know, he'll benefit to.
- [92:49]
Kyle Mann
No, I mean, Keyshawn's a little more prepared. Bob's got. Bob's got a little of that stuff. I just think that Keyshawn getting into the pain. He's a little bit ahead of Bob at this point, but yeah.
- [92:58]
Justin Varier
Okay, let's talk about the last two guys you have on your list here who, frankly, I'm probably more excited about, if only because these seem to be guys who just, in the short amount of college basketball that we've had this far, have really opened eyes. I watched The Michael Brown Jr. Game against Kentucky and I was like, let's.
- [93:15]
Kyle Mann
Fucking go, because let's end the show. Actually, right now, I don't think we need to talk about that game at all.
- [93:21]
Justin Varier
So you were. You. You were there, and so you probably saw what I saw. But the guy that jumped out to me with Brown was. He had a little lamelo in him and version of Lamello where it's like, head in the clouds, carefree, will pull up from anywhere. But there's just this general sense of, like, buoyancy about him where he's just making things happen and just, like, having fun and everything is just a jaunt down the dewy meadow, you know, I just. I just love him. It was like. It was so much fun watching him play.
- [93:56]
Kyle Mann
I don't care for a Dewey Meadow man, because you look down, it doesn't matter what kind of. You have to have, like, Gore Tex shoes on. If you're going down. You wear leather, it gets wet, it's gonna stink. You're wearing, you know, athletic shoes. You get the mesh in there, your socks are wet. I'm just Dewey Meadows. Not for me. I was gonna say the, the cloud that I have here. I'm not, I'm not marrying myself to this, but this was a flyby kind of thing. Just a, Just a cloud of players. CJ McCollum, Tyler Hero, Bradley Beal, Manuel Cookley, Jamal Murray. Just movement, light breezy shooters. He can pass the ball. He showed a lot of ability to get to the rim. I was, I was kind of looking ahead to that matchup. I had seen the sort of. He's a guy who stresses your off ball communication. Granted, Louisville has a lot of those guys. And the way that I saw Kentucky communicating off the ball before they played Louisville, I was like, if they do that again, Mike L. Brown is going to whoop that ass. And he did. He's. He is tough, man, and he's a big time competitor. They, they had. I was at their exhibition game. He played Peterson in the first game and Peterson played amazing. And Michael Brown was really pressing and trying to. Trying to kind of rise to the moment he settled down. But yeah, man, he, he absolutely looked like that dude. He's. He.
- [95:10]
Justin Varier
He.
- [95:11]
Kyle Mann
They. They measured him at six five in 2024. At the they. Louisville says he's six five. I don't know because I'm sure I'll hear about this. But gross. He maybe had a gross spread. But in 2024 at Adidas All American, he was at six one and three quarters without shoes. But long arms, six, six and a half wingspan and big hands. So kids from Orlando, but he's, he's somebody. Let's say that NOLA gets in the position where Atlanta is going to be picking for them there. I think Atlanta would be an interesting spot for Michael Brown.
- [95:46]
Justin Varier
I agree. Yeah. Just as like the Trey successor. Because how many wings can you really have on a team? Like I guess infinite as OKC has shown. But at the same time, like, I, I think Atlanta would like to turn the page and if they have the opportunity to. Brown makes sense to me. It seemed like, correct me if I'm wrong, the. The shooting and the passing was known and as you alluded to, there was like a, A growth spurt that may have solved or like gotten him better at the finishing stuff. But the finishing is where the concerns lie. Is that fair?
- [96:18]
Kyle Mann
That's where they were just because. And that. That's a common question for all the guys that I mentioned. That was a thing. It's just like this game's uphill. We need the balancing part of the downhill stuff. The thing about Atlanta going back to that is just and it's a positive for Mikel, if you haven't watched him, is that he's. He is kind of like Murray a little bit in that he can run some ball screen, he's going to hit that dribble, pull up stuff. He can make a lot of different types of passes, but he's a little more scheme, versatile. Whereas, you know, he can roll out of a pick and roll. Doesn't work. He can go to the weak side, come off of a, you know, stagger and come back like he's willing to play that way and able to play that way in a way that Atlanta for years, frankly, we were always just like, man, I wish Trey would just be Steph Curry or, you know, whatever that unrealistic conversation we had over and over again. Mikel is capable of that in a way that I think would, would really benefit Atlanta and be a piece for them and they could bring him along slowly, which would be a nice positive too.
- [97:15]
Justin Varier
So the last guy we have here, Caleb Wilson of North Carolina, I couldn't figure out a comp for him. I just, I love him as well. He had that one play where they got a turnover on a full court press and he just yelled out like he just won the lottery. And I was like, hell yeah, this is my guy.
- [97:36]
Kyle Mann
I thought he was doing the, the, the old man pickup move where, you know, the old guy who is not really. Can't really play anymore. They do that. Like they yell the name of the other person and they throw it to him mistakenly. I thought that happened in transition. I was hate People do that. No, I don't, I don't totally have a great comparison for him yet. You're hearing me say this over and over again because I haven't really committed to any of these yet. I'm just kind of thinking about them still. But if you want to talk about size wise, I mean, they say he's 610, but you look at his frame, he's got gigantic shoulders. He's interesting in that he is very, very explosive around the rim. Like he can get up, get high quickly. But he also has funky game in the middle too, at times. The thing about him is I, I trust him to switch. His switchability might be crazy, man. I mean, it might be, it might be 1 through 4 credibly, maybe even some 5 at on dabbling in 5 at. At times. OG I don't want to throw that out. I mean, he, he has that body type, man, he really does.
- [98:38]
Justin Varier
I'm glad you mentioned him because I Was thinking of guys who are huge because he's like what, 6, 9, 6 10, but powerful and just like springy athlete. Like, he was dunking all of our guys. And like, I was thinking of Ace Bailey, if only because we had just talked about him, but in terms of like, that, like, he's just so big, but brings like, much more flex to him than a typical big man. Like, he seems like he's probably more of like a power wing than anything else. It seems like he's still like harnessing his body and his tools too, but good God, if he can like, like he did in that game, frankly. And most of what he was doing seemed to be back to the basket stuff. Like, he could be something.
- [99:17]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I think there are a couple more wrinkles too, to him that make him really, really interesting. First is that I think he's a better passer than people maybe are going to realize. Like, he made a lot of high, low passes in that game that were great. He's willing in a way. He's ahead of Ace in terms of. He's willing to kind of move with the flow of the stream and not just dam it up in any reason just because he wants to. He's not going to be doing that. But the other thing to speak of, the other side of my mouth, is that he is capable of creating for himself. Now. He's not great going downhill, dribbling the ball, yet OG had to work there. Not that OJ is just OG is the standard that he has to get to, but just for a comparison, he's. He's working towards that. Right now. When Carolina uses him, they are kind of posting him up in the high post similar to the way that Ace was posted for Rutgers. And he's making those, like, no dribble fades at a, at a surprisingly high clip and showing some touch. So if you're going to get a defender like that who can hit open shots, who's going to be able to move the ball. I could see, I said this in a video I did for Social the other day that I can, I can retweet or you can go find if you're curious, because I have some clips on there to kind of reference what I'm talking about. He's going to be an analytics darling for this class. Like, he's going to have a steel percentage off the charts. He can pass the ball and I could see people hipstering their way into talking and being like, if. If AJ's not efficient as a scorer, if he's not A playmaker, blah, blah, blah. You could see people working themselves to that kind of conversation. I could see it happening.
- [100:50]
Justin Varier
Well, speaking of hipster, just before we go here, is there anybody you want to like, claim territory on right now? Are there any sleepers you're watching? Are there any guys that we just haven't even talked about where you're like, this is the guy. At the very least, like, I have my eye on.
- [101:05]
Kyle Mann
Oh, I mean, there's a handful of guys I'm not going to. I mean, I'll throw some names out for people. There's some sleepers here. I'll go a little, a little deeper on a couple. Granted, if you, if you follow the draft, this isn't for you. Hipster draft people. Turn. Plug your ears or just be tolerant for a minute. I mean, Malik Thomas for Arkansas is an interesting kind of volume, kind of bucket getter score. If you want to watch him, he's fun. Hannes Steinbach for Washington. Washington has a really interesting team. If you're, if you're wanting to get into watching college basketball, I would recommend it. LeBaron filing for Alabama has been one of my favorite players for a long time. Last year when our board first came out, I had him at nine and people were like, where are you taking your meds, Kyle? And then Yaxel. Linda Borg, another guy from Michigan. There's a fun player for Virginia Tech called. Called. It's his name. Neoclies Abdullah. Somebody tell me. I was saying Abdullah's wrong. Maybe I. But we'll figure that out later. He is a big, you know, six, eight, almost six, nine. Kind of a Denny Abdia type player. Can really pass the ball, has a fun pace to him. Justin, you would like him. You should check him out. It's just he had a real big outburst the other day against Providence and people were like, okay, so we'll see. We'll see how much he can sustain that. But he's very fun. And then a guy to keep an eye on. That is interesting is, is Jaden Quaintance for Kentucky. He's, he's a guy who's very young, still only 19 years old, but he's kind of a Jalen Durin bam type of like a scheme Switchy can guard everybody. Just built like a, like an ant from Lord of the Rings. Like, he just is this just tree of a person. Like. And I don't know. So, yeah, he's somebody that's just a handful of guys among many more to.
- [102:52]
Justin Varier
Talk about about what team doesn't need to end, you know, for sure. Nice around the basket.
- [102:58]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, yeah.
- [102:59]
Justin Varier
The steadiness, the veteran leadership. Yeah.
- [103:02]
Kyle Mann
We'd have to call full timeouts every time because if he had any commentary, he'd speak so slowly. You know, that's something you'd have to figure in. But this is all very. This is all kind of, you know, virginy kind of talk. But, yeah, I think it's.
- [103:14]
Justin Varier
Yep, that's true. No one is arguing otherwise.
- [103:19]
Kyle Mann
Cut that part out. Why did I say that?
- [103:20]
Justin Varier
No, no, no, no. We're leaving. We're leaving all of your good stuff in here. Kyle has already asked to cut out, like, nine different things.
- [103:27]
Kyle Mann
Cut that out, too. Cut Justin saying that out. Cut that also.
- [103:30]
Justin Varier
Okay. Okay. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? We'll be back on Wednesday, but we'll also be keeping track of the draft throughout this season. We'll check in from time to time, and then, obviously, when things really kick off, I think we'll do a little bit more of it. But thank you very much to Isaiah Blakely and Victoria Valencia, who not only worked through two different recordings, but also suffered through that Rockets game, which went way later than we were expecting. So thank you very much. We'll be back on Wednesday. Rob will hopefully still be alive and joining us. Where's Rob?
- [104:01]
Kyle Mann
Is he somewhere headbanging to Paramore right now? Is that what's going on? What's. Where's Rob Mahoney?
- [104:06]
Justin Varier
Yeah, him and Benson Boone. Just. Just getting after it.
- [104:10]
Nick Friedell
Yeah.
- [104:10]
Justin Varier
I don't know.
- [104:11]
Kyle Mann
Not surprised.
- [104:12]
Justin Varier
Lazy. We'll talk about it on Wednesday. We'll talk to you next time. Must be 21 plus and present in selection states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.