The Wemby Takeover Is on and Gambling Arrests Rock the NBA. Plus, Name That Take and a Big Announcement

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show - Group Chat, October 24, 2025

Episode: The Wemby Takeover Is On and Gambling Arrests Rock the NBA. Plus, Name That Take and a Big Announcement

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Episode Overview

This edition of the Group Chat marks a new era for the show—bidding farewell to long-time co-host Big Wos as he departs for another opportunity, introducing J. Kyle Mann as the new co-host, and diving deep into two massive headlines from the season's kickoff: Victor Wembanyama’s ascendant dominance and the NBA’s developing gambling scandal. The panel also debuts a playful “Name That Take” segment and offers candid analysis of the week’s on-court action.

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Key Segments and Insights

1. Farewell to Big Wos and Welcoming J. Kyle Mann

Timestamps: 00:11–05:39

• The show opens with Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney reflecting on Big Wos' departure after four years. They express gratitude and share some inside jokes (“He named me an honorary black guy”—Justin, 01:00).
• J. Kyle Mann is announced as the new co-host; he’ll also serve as the podcast’s resident NBA draft expert, ensuring a boost in college basketball and rookie analysis.
• Justin asks Kyle for a “fun fact,” resulting in Kyle recalling a “hardest job” story about "cutting tobacco"—“If you’re from where I’m from, I'll say it the way that we say it. Cutting tobacco. That is the correct way to say it.” (05:40)
• The Group Chat’s tone remains irreverent, referring to tawdry histories and joking about podcast rituals.

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2. NBA Gambling Arrests: Operation 'Nothing but Bet'

Timestamps: 07:44–22:05

• The panel breaks down the FBI’s “Operation Nothing but Bet,” which led to the arrest of NBA figures including Chauncey Billups, Terry Rozier, and Damon Jones.
• Key Allegations:
  • Billups, Damon Jones allegedly lured players into mafia-backed, rigged poker games using X-ray devices, card markers, and secret cameras.
  • Billups, as “co-conspirator 8,” informed gamblers of confidential injury/sitting info, leading to bets and blowouts, notably the 28-point Blazers loss to the Bulls in March 2023.
• Notable Quotes:
  • “I don’t know the last time I heard this much about La Cosa Nostra, which wasn’t just like me watching an AMC movie by myself.” —Justin, 08:57
  • “Chauncey Billups... I don’t know that we’ll see Chauncey Billups on the sideline ever again.” —Rob, 12:46
  • “You would think any athlete knows you cannot bring this to the game.” —Rob, 15:12
• The discussion pivots to the normalization of gambling in the NBA’s ecosystem and the increased risks as betting infrastructures permeate both fans and league culture. Rob observes, “It is baked into the culture and the presentation of the sport... You can go in many arenas and place a bet at a kiosk, which is just a different level of insanity.” (16:28)
• Questions about legacy and punishment swirl: Does this scandal imperil Chauncey's Hall of Fame status? (“Is he still a basketball Hall of Famer if these allegations are true?” —Rob, 19:09)

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3. The Wemby Takeover: Victor Wembanyama’s Dominance

Timestamps: 23:31–37:41

• The crew recaps Wembanyama’s astonishing opening night: 40 points, 15 rebounds, and completely overwhelming Anthony Davis (“AD looked absolutely normal playing against Wemby.” —Justin, 24:12).
• Analysis:
  • Wemby physically dominates even elite defenders and warps court spacing; his combination of size, agility, and skill led to plays “that would be the best play of any other player’s season” —Rob, 29:30.
  • “His roller gravity is unlike anything I've ever seen...looked like a big person sat on a beanbag, the way it warped.” —Kyle, 32:20
  • Even referees appear uncertain how to officiate him due to his shot-blocking reach.
• The panel explores defensive problems for teams facing Wemby and how he breaks the mold—even rendering “unicorn” Anthony Davis pedestrian.
• MVP talk: Both Kyle and Rob acknowledge Wemby could be a legitimate MVP front-runner if his development (especially his interior scoring) continues.

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4. Rookie Watch: Cooper Flagg, Stephon Castle, A.J. Edgecombe & More

Timestamps: 27:27–47:26

• Cooper Flagg’s Rough Debut: Thrust into point guard duty on a veteran Mavs team, Flag struggled against San Antonio’s defense and Wemby’s rim protection. “It's so tough to judge Flag...not only is this his first NBA game, but you’re playing against Wemby, who, as we've just talked about for half an hour now, is such a unique NBA player.” —Justin, 37:04
• Stephon Castle’s Strong Showing: Castle’s impact goes beyond scoring—his defense, rebounding, and versatility draw comparisons to Amen Thompson’s rookie effect (“I thought all the Spurs wings just looked like a pack of unleashed dogs going at the ball with Wimby behind them.” —Kyle, 36:12).
• AJ Edgecombe’s Electric Debut for the Sixers: 34 points, outpacing expectations and showing off elite quickness. “He’s going to be one of those kinds of athletes where the cross matches have no shot...if he has any momentum.” —Rob, 47:26

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5. Around the League News and Notes

Timestamps: 51:05–61:43

• Orlando Magic: Paolo, Franz, and Bane experiment bears fruit on offense “for the first time in how long.” The addition of Desmond Bane brings ball-handling relief and new pick-and-roll options (“What this could do for Paolo is pretty enormous if he’s willing to lean in.” —Kyle, 53:18).
• Miami Heat: New additions and style changes bring optimism (“Norm Powell is nothing if not decisive…getting into floater range, getting into his drives…” —Rob, 58:09).
• Atlanta Hawks & Toronto Raptors: Hawks' defense gets eviscerated, and Raptors’ head coach Darko Rajaković brings emotion and energy to the locker room.
• Clippers: Early struggles—lack of transition offense and aging stars are concerns.

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6. Segment: "Name That Take"

Timestamps: 62:17–82:41

A game inspired by Name That Tune: Justin presents bold takes as clues, and Rob and Kyle bid on how fast they can deduce the take.

• Sample Topics & Notable Moments:
  • Houston Rockets & Reed Sheppard: Justin suggests the Rockets will trade Reed Sheppard before the trade deadline, relegating their tall-ball experiment to a playoff wrinkle. “Reed Shepard seems like too much to give up for this player. The Houston Rockets should trade Reed Shepard for CJ McCollum.”—Rob, 65:34 (incorrect guess)
  • Matt Ishbia & Michael Pina: Pina’s spicy Suns prediction draws an annoyed tweet from owner Matt Ishbia. Justin quips, “We now live in a world where Michael Pina may have an impact on an NBA team. And that frightens me more than global warming.” (72:56)
  • NBA on NBC Broadcast: The panel debates the internet’s nostalgia-driven affection for NBC broadcasts. “The NBC broadcast was fine at best, manipulative at worst, and everyone will turn on it by mid-season.” —Justin, 76:51
  • Pronunciation Policing: A tongue-in-cheek warning for Kyle about Rob’s meticulous approach to name pronunciation—“Don't ever mispronounce a player's name, or Rob will murder you with shame...” —Justin, 84:00

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Wemby Hype: "He had a play with AD, where he was at the three-point line, walked AD to the block and just did bump, bump, baby hook like he’s Al Jefferson. If he's doing that to Anthony Davis...that’s how you become the MVP of the league." —Rob Mahoney, 33:43
• On NBA Gambling Arrests: “…Once the players become involved and it was really an inevitability, the question is how fast can you catch them? We are past the point of ‘oh, this is Terry Rozier and Johnte Porter with some guys they know.’ This is organized crime, period.” —Rob Mahoney, 16:28
• AJ Edgecombe’s Debut: “He knew…because he has blinders on, probably because he's so overconfident…like he was downhill in an instant and he's so fast and so explosive…” —Justin Verrier, 46:33
• NBA on NBC Critique: "Dr. Twitter becomes Marketing Executive Twitter... this is the mold to save the NBA from whatever morass it’s in now because of ratings...I have to call bullshit." —Justin Verrier, 77:09

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Farewell to Big Wos/Welcome, Kyle – 00:11–05:39
• Gambling Scandal – 07:44–22:05
• Wemby Mania – 23:31–37:41
• Rookie Watch/Flagg, Castle, Edgecombe – 27:27–47:26
• Magic, Heat, and League News – 51:05–61:43
• Name That Take Segment – 62:17–82:41

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Conclusion and Tone

This inaugural new-era Group Chat blends trademark Ringer humor, banter, and incisive analysis. The panel demonstrates real skepticism about league narratives (from gambling integration to media nostalgia), marvels at the league’s emerging stars, and isn’t afraid to challenge each other with clever games and genuine debate. The show continues to make room for both NBA diehards and casual hoopheads with insights, personality, and plenty of quotable moments.

“We are genuinely... thrilled to have you.” —Rob Mahoney, 85:08 (on officially welcoming Kyle as co-host)

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Transcript

[Rob Mahoney]

Foreign.

[Justin Ferrier]

Hello, and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Ferrier, and joining me, as always, Rob Mahoney. But not joining us, unfortunately, is big Woz. I know, as you probably have heard, listener out there, or if you're criminally online, you've really investigated this fully. Was is no longer going to be with us on our podcast. He took another opportunity. We're very excited for him, definitely. We're obviously pretty bummed that he's not going to be with us after, what, four years?

[Rob Mahoney]

I know it's the end of an era. I mean, we did almost, I think, 300 episodes together as the three of us. It's been an incredible round. We're going to miss Woz. Zero hard feelings about anything with this situation. We're happy for him. We're just going to miss him, too.

[Justin Ferrier]

The. The really unfortunate part is right before he took this other opportunity, he named me an honorary black guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Did he?

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah. Is that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is that on recording somewhere? Do we have proof of that?

[Justin Ferrier]

No, but Isaiah Blakely, our producer, heard it, so I have a witness to it. He was like, yeah, you. You tend not to want to get involved in other, like, group activities with Spotify. Reminds me of. Of that. And so I didn't get to take a victory laugh with that honor in mind.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think you just did. So thank. Thank you, Woz, for unfortunately inflating Justin's ego just a little bit more on the way out. But, you know, we. We have to soldier on, though. Justin. Basketball never stops, so therefore, Group Chat can never stop.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's right. And we didn't go very far to find a new co host. I think when they asked us who we would want to replace Woz, Rob, you and I had the same exact response.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, yeah. Easily the go to answer under these circumstances. If we can't have waz, if Group Chat has to change into this new era, we want to do it with our pal, J. Kyle Mann, who, if we're all being honest, has been part of the Group Chat family for a long time.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yes. Kyle, the unofficial fourth chair, the capadonna of the Group Chat network, is going to be joining us throughout the year, which means we're going to do a little bit more draft coverage, I think, dotted along. I think he's going to be obviously helpful in March Madness, but also maybe doing some stuff along the way, because Kyle is also, in addition to joining us twice a week now, going to be our draft expert at the ringer as he was last year, as always. That'll be fun.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'M I'm looking forward to all of it. I'm looking forward to potting with Kyle today. Was. Is our guy forever, though, you know, it's. It's been such an incredible run with the three of us. I'm going to miss that. I'm just. I'm also looking forward to everything we got cooking this season and everything we're going to be doing with Kyle. So group chat forever, Justin.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's right. We'll miss you, Was. Why don't we take a little break just so we could break out the little hankies and wipe our tears away. And we'll bring in Kyle for the first time.

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[J. Kyle Mann]

Wow.

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[Justin Ferrier]

And joining us now, our lovely new co host. You should be familiar with him by now, not only because he's been on this pod a lot, but also across many, many other ringer stuff. It's J. Kyle Mann. What's up, Kyle?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Do people still do raise the roof? Is that a thing? That was a real big thing when I was playing basketball. Growing. It comes and goes. I'm happy to be here.

[Rob Mahoney]

I. Yeah, in all of my private life, I'm just constantly raising the roof.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He's got to raise the roof because his ass is so tall. Have you ever been near Rob Mahoney? No. I mean, yeah. Very, very happy to be here. Obviously. You know, when they were asking me about doing this, I was like, I know these bozos. So this will be easy. We'll just, we'll hit the ground running. Let's do it.

[Justin Ferrier]

Let's roll.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, we're thrilled to have you. And I have to say, as far as like, significantly upping our awareness of college basketball, Justin, we have gone from negative awareness and knowledge to all of a sudden having just the luxury of your presence. So in addition to everything, we're going to talk with NBA, you'll be a welcome presence come draft in college time for sure.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Basically a phone book you guys had to jump over to just to pass.

[Justin Ferrier]

Listen, that's not true. I pretend to know about UConn until I watch a couple games in the NCAA tournament.

[J. Kyle Mann]

And I shame you for that. Rightfully so. I think when it comes March and Justin decides he wants to talk some trash, I'm like, you know, Mutombo finger. No, don't, don't. Quit trying to do that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Since when is talking shit and general know like those things are not even in the same wavelength. They don't have anything to do with each other.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, everybody approach it a different way as they will. That's fine. Whatever your conscience permits.

[Justin Ferrier]

Well, we used to have a ringer tradition back in the day when we used to work in the old offices and we'd gather around the table for a meeting. Whenever a new person entered the ringer atmosphere, they would have to give a fun fact about themselves. Oh, Kyle. And you have to be put on the spot, which is why I didn't prep you in advance for this. Kyle, do you have a fun fact about you as a human, about your career that you could share with us?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Oh, okay. Well, I'll take this chance to, to. All right. So last night I was asked, hey, what's the hardest job you've ever had? And I said, cutting tobacco. Which if you're from where I'm from, I'll say it the way that we say it. Cutting tobacco. That is the correct way to say it. So we had an interesting. Kirk Goldsberry was in the studio asking me what, what goes into cutting tobacco? And I was explaining to them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So yeah, it's been downhill from there in terms of difficulty and labor. So yeah, there's, there's. And I think that's just sort of a knock for my rural, you know, that's, that's a point in the bucket for my rural cred, I think. So if you were curious or worried about that, you get that in addition to a fun fact about me.

[Justin Ferrier]

Right?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, now we really feel like elitists. Like how are we supposed to look at him.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He's never cut tobacco in his life.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is what I'm saying. How are we supposed to like even compete with your common man bonafide?

[Justin Ferrier]

I know these have never gone done manual labor in their life.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not a second of it. Unfortunately.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, well, unfortunately things don't get much easier potting with, with Rob Mahoney over there. He's a real, real tough guy. He's a real grinder over.

[Rob Mahoney]

I do make Kai look very tough by comparison, so. You're welcome.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, yeah. Known for my toughness. Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

Unfortunately that pales in comparison to the the best fun fact that we ever got which was from an intern. I think I could share this now because of enough time has passed where I believe he said some fringe star NFL player had slept with his girlfriend and stole him from him. To which I just could not believe it. And he used much harsher terms. It was like X player fucked my girlfriend and then left me for him. And I was like what the fuck is going on right now?

[Rob Mahoney]

That doesn't sound like a fun.

[J. Kyle Mann]

My ex girlfriend, the lying tramp. It's the Billy Madison. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Jesus Christ.

[Justin Ferrier]

So your fact was more fun than that. So good stuff, Justin.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very interesting of you to couch it behind like laundering an interns fun fact. Like we all know your past, all right. We all know where you've been.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's true. I have a very tawdry history that unfortunately comes out in the pod more than I'd like.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's true.

[J. Kyle Mann]

So badass to talk about your history to say it's tawdry. Yeah man. So cool and badass.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, can we turn from our tawdry histories to the NBA's tawdry present, please?

[Justin Ferrier]

We should, I should mention just up top here that we are going to change our podcasting schedule just slightly this season. We're doing Sunday nights now, so Sunday nights, the pod should be in your feeds for your Monday morning commute, including on the east coast. And then we'll be going Wednesday days used to be Monday Thursdays, now Sunday Wednesdays only a slight adjustment, so you should be used to it. But yeah, Rob mentions the big news percolating in the NBA right now. Unfortunately I couldn't be there live with you guys because I had to leave core week because I felt the heat coming around the corner. I had to go and get Chauncey Billups out of here before the FBI crashed down. Unfortunately I didn't get there in time. But we got the news this morning, Thursday morning that Phillips, Terry Rosier, Damon Jones were all arrested by the FBI in conjunction with what they're describing as Operation Nothing but Bet, which was a multi part sort of investigation related in quotes to illegal sports betting and rigged poker games backed by the mafia. I don't know the last time I heard this much about La Costa Nostra, which wasn't just like me watching an AMC movie by myself. But, Rob, this is kind of wild, expected to some degree because we've heard little drips of this over the course of what, a couple years now?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

Uh, but to see it all laid.

[Rob Mahoney]

Out like this is really something genuinely striking. I think the Chauncey part of this especially, and him getting roped into not just this allegation that he's been involved in these illegal poker games, but we should also say, like, not named in the Terry Rosier indictment, but strongly alluded to as an Oregon resident who was an NBA player from approximately 1997 through 2014 and an NBA coach since 2021.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Whoever goes to the stad head filter really gets narrowed way down.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

When you start to do that genuinely shocking stuff. But I have to say, Justin, I. Did you say Nothing but Bet was the operation name? I think it was just Nothing but Net.

[Justin Ferrier]

I think it's Operation Nothing but Bet.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, I think that's giving them too much credit. I wish they had gone for the pun. Everything I'm seeing in the news is Nothing but net.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I thought you hated puns.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, in this case, you got to do something.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, the bare minimum. I was trying to think, like, what could we have done to improve just the operation parameters, just the SEO here really. Like, was Operation Second Apron taken? Was Operation Slob wizard off the table? Like, I think there are some. Some deeper cuts we could have gone for.

[Justin Ferrier]

I think Operation Nothing but Bet is perfect because it is just a slight pawn that clearly someone put a lot of effort into. But it isn't all that funny, honestly. As someone who is an expert in this field, I have to say I give them five stars for this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wow.

[Justin Ferrier]

But, yeah, this was a little bit of a mess. So Bilps was basically implicated in two separate situations, as Rob alluded to. So there was this poker situation where it seemed like he and Jones were the lure for these in air quotes. Fish in order to get them to the poker game and in order to defraud them with such things as X ray machines built into tables that read face down, cards straight up Roman from.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Romans from ocean squ. Right. Like unbelievable, right? Izard. Yeah. Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

Contact lenses that read pre marked cards and secret cameras in card trays. Kyle, do you have any of these at your home office?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Not yet. I mean, I'm going to look into it. Naturally. Not My Spy, My Spy Weekly magazine that comes. I usually thumb through that and try to Make a tough decision and where to spend my money. But initially I was going to say, when I heard about this story, initially, there were two. Tyler and I were talking about in the home. There were two waves of information initially, obviously, that came out. And the first thing was their involvement in this card game. And me thinking about it, I was just like, well, you're imagining what, what's the. What are the moves ahead here? It's just like you can naturally make up a story about if you wanted, if you were trying to get out of this, which, you know, obviously you would try to get out of it. You know, I was used as a. As a pawner in some way. You know, you can naturally see how they would talk about that. But you obviously are going to leave yourself vulnerable to any shred of information that's going to prove that. As we've seen with the Aspire situation. But with this, the second way that comes out is like, okay, yeah, like, there's no. The plausible deniability is kind of cratering at this point.

[Rob Mahoney]

And this, the second allegation, which we should say, like, very specifically lays out this case. There's this March 2023 game in which the Portland Trailblazers are going into it with, like, more or less their healthy roster. Damon Lillard has been playing. They're about to turn the corner into tanking. And Chauncey Billups, or, sorry, co conspirator number eight, who is not. Not Chauncey Billups, who played from 97 to 2004, certainly did. Tips off somebody that Damian Lillard will not be participating in this game, which allows them to place hefty bets against the Blazers, who had won their previous game against the Jazz. Guess what? They get blown out by the Bulls by 28 points in that game. This is the kind of stuff that goes from like, oh, he's involved in the card game, as you said, Kyle. Like, that's the kind of allegation that a coach can come back from this thing. I don't know that we will see Chauncey Billups on the sideline ever again.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah. And it also indirectly involves Dame and then with Damon Jones, LeBron, who just seemed to be, you know. Yeah. And so, like, it gets pretty messy pretty quickly. But you're right, Rob. I think this is pretty much the case open, case closed sort of situation here where it's like, yes, you can get away with the poker thing. It ultimately led to people being defrauded, but that's not necessarily an NBA sort of situation. And if anything, I Would have expected the NBA to distance themselves from that. But this directly involves a coach, not just a player giving out information about what they're going to do for a lineup. I have a hard time believing, Kyle, that Chauncey's going to come back from this one.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, I don't. Yeah, naturally, I don't think he's coming back either. I mean, the place, the first place your mind goes though, when you see successful peoples of this, like going and making these kinds of decisions. Decisions, you just wonder why. And the first thing is that, you know, maybe you have financial pressure of some kind to do this, to get yourself involved with this. But I was saying, I was wondering if the Tim, one of the temptations in this, because, you know, you've heard players talk about this is an opportunity to kind of throw a bone to your people or whatever it is. Is this just sort of a modern financial vitamin way to sort of get out of. Because we all have seen like the 30 for 30, the Broke documentary where they're talking about all the people they're supporting. I'm like, was this just a really tempting way for players to be like, I can throw you this little bit of information and just not financially have to throw any money to you of my own. That was just one hypothesis I had about, like, why people would do this when they seem to have a lot of money or competitive spirit, not wanting to die, you know, you're just wondering why.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, well, I think the why is a little different for everybody. And we should say, like, you know, we're talking around this story, we're cracking some jokes. Like, some of it is very dark. I would say the John Tay Porter part of it, especially where his gambling debts were so severe that he was basically like, squeezed into participating in the kind of game prop bet tipping part of this whole thing. And I think there are levels to all of this. And clearly, again, like, the poker thing is off to the side. Like, NBA players are constantly gambling. They are never not gambling in some way, form or fashion with each other. That stuff is all fine. And so the idea of, like falling into a poker mess entirely believable to me. But you would think any athlete knows you cannot bring this to the game. You cannot get to the point where you are Terry Rosier checking yourself out with a fake injury so you can move betting money. Like, that's just completely unacceptable to say the very least.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah. And I have to wonder, the more and more sports gambling becomes just an like, integrated into what the NBA is doing. It seems like Maybe the line just moves back and something like as simple as Billups giving away his lineup card or who's in or who's out just a couple hours before information that is going to become public in a little bit. Maybe he thinks, oh, that's just a harmless indiscretion. Especially if everybody's gambling back and forth with this. Like who's ever going to know something about that? I could definitely see that. And that is where something on the margins just becomes more and more problem for the NBA. We should mention, hey, this podcast network very much entwined with a sports gambling company. We I don't do a lot of sports gambling ourselves. So this all seems very foreign to me. But like this is very much part of our world now. And I think things tend to all of the checks and balances tend to fray the more and more this becomes normalized.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, it is baked into the culture and the presentation of the sport. It is on the broadcast. It is not just like on your phone in select states, but you can go in many arenas and place a bet at a kiosk, which is just a different level of insanity as far as this stuff goes. But yeah, once the players become involved and it was really an inevitability, the question is how fast can you catch them? How fast can you like root out some of these rings? And we are past the point of like, oh, this is Terry Rosier and Johnte Porter with some guys they know. Like this is organized crime, period.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

And Chauncey Billups, a big bold face name. Obviously I think he's not front and center as he used to be in the league, but he was one of the more popular players in the league during his playing days. And he is one of 30 NBA head coaches. And so I think part of the shock of this is just how prominent he is, the fact that a coach, not a player is doing something like this. I also think this comes at a pretty inopportune time not only for Billups but also for the Portland Trailblazers.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Or maybe opportune if they can upgrade. I don't know. We'll see.

[Rob Mahoney]

Shout out to Thiago Splitter, interim head.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Coach of the Portland's got to give us a follow up by the way. We need and I was going to say scream Tiago split earth for their younger people who don't get that reference. But I was going to say too. And another mistake that Billups made is that he 100 teed up the inevitable documentary that's coming about this five years from now, where he says, let the chips fall where they may. If I were the mixer on that, I would be like, okay, we're going to mix the reverb and have it go up as he says that, and it echoes into a cavernous, you know, reverb. And then we cut to the next thing. So he said he's setting up the documentary people for the future future, though, so that's a positive, Right.

[Justin Ferrier]

Well, it's unfortunate because I was prepared to force upon you guys, as I typically do, a positive opinion about the Portland Trailblazers based on their opener last night. Yeah. Where they played very well and looked very feisty on defensive end Anthony Edwards comes out like, this is not the type of team I want to play anymore. It's not an easy win because these guys are picking me up full court. This is very hard. Now, we scored 40, but those were very hard. 40 I could attest to. And also the. The bigger issue here is that a new owner is very much going to be coming in in the next couple of months here. Tom Dundon was actually courtside for that game, I presume, either probably still in Portland or just has left. And so I think there's kind of been these suggestions. Suspicions that Dundon, considering what he did in the NHL, might be prone to clean house and start fresh. He seems to be kind of of the Moneyball mindset, wants to cut costs when he has to. Uh, this just gives him more opportunity to turn the page on Billups and unfortunately, Joe Cronin, who is tied to Billups now. So you have to wonder, the trickle down effect, does this create an opening to where if Dundon wants to make changes, no matter what happens this season, he has the opportunity to do so?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, I mean, Billups has made that very easy, and it really has kind of ousted himself from this picture. I think the question, like, my mind inevitably goes to some big places, like, Chauncey Billups is a basketball hall of Famer. Is he still a basketball hall of Famer if these allegations are true?

[Justin Ferrier]

Like, it's.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a weird gray area because it's not like he fixed a game. He did something that the organization was going to do, which is lean into the tank in that 2023 season. But in tipping people off and in like violating this not just unwritten, but legal rule of the sport and the country, has. Has he crossed a line that he cannot come back from in, like, a big picture, Historical legacy sense, how much.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Precedent do we have for retroactively going in for some somebody because these are two. This is separate from his playing career. You know, like, I mean I don't. I'm trying to think of examples of guys who have done things to. I mean I don't know if do we have any kind of precedent for someone being taken out of the hall like on this front, not in the basketball hall.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I don't think just went in too last year.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, yeah. And I mean I, I do, you know, obvious politically that would obviously if, if he hadn't gone in yet. I think that would be a huge factor. But it'll be interesting to watch what happens with that.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess he's going to let the chips fall and see where they end up here. All right. Anything else on this FBI sting investigation, Rob, you specifically, given your expertise and having potted about task know about is.

[Rob Mahoney]

This, I mean this has to be the thing that Damon Jones is now known the most for. Right.

[Justin Ferrier]

Other than being LeBron's friend, which is probably number one on his bio that.

[Rob Mahoney]

That facilitated this whole mess in the first place apparently is just like knowing and hanging out with LeBron and thus when LeBron might or may or may not play in a game. But like before this I would say it is yes. Being LeBron's teammate hitting that one game winning shot against the Wizards in the playoffs or getting soup thrown at him by J.R. smith like that, that was the level for Damon Jones. And now all of a sudden he is, you know, co conspirator number one in a massive betting ring that is involving. That is really enmeshing the entire sport. And I imagine we'll be talking about for a very long time.

[Justin Ferrier]

We didn't even talk about Terry Rozier. Fortunately, I guess for the Miami Heat didn't seem like he was going to be big in their plans this season. So nothing probably practically changes on the court. If anything, I think they're probably cheering maybe raising the roof along with Kyle in order to get him off the books. But he's also implicated in some pretty damning details as well. So I got to say he played pretty well last night. I don't know if you guys caught that one.

[Rob Mahoney]

Terry Rosier.

[Justin Ferrier]

J. Rosier did not the Heat.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Oh, I was going to say I was going to. I was ready to make a fun tech. Well, you said get along with Kyle. I didn't know what my reading interest in when that was other than he played for Lowell.

[Justin Ferrier]

I don't know what you like to raise the roof.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Oh right, sure. I. Yeah I need to remember my own callbacks, I guess. But yeah, I mean, if you got Fontechio, why do you need Terry Rosen?

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the thing.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

They plus Davion Mitchell. The heat honestly looked very impressive in there.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Very competent. Yeah, it was. It was something else.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think we'll come back to that one.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Sure.

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[Justin Ferrier]

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[Justin Ferrier]

Let's talk about some of the events on the docket last night. 12 games in the NBA on the real opening night, as we call it. But the biggest one was unfortunately for Cooper Flag, who had his debut derailed by Victor Webanyama, looking like an absolute menace. Rob, is that how you used to play on the pickup court?

[Rob Mahoney]

Used to?

[Justin Ferrier]

Well, you've had a lot going on. You had the pneumonia, you had the wrist, you've really, like, taken on the chin lately.

[Rob Mahoney]

There has been a lot going on, plus the move. Look, I got to just uproot and restart my entire pickup basketball life here in la. So there's, there's a lot happening. But yeah, I would say everything that you saw from Wemby last night is more or less in my bag.

[Justin Ferrier]

So 40 points, 15 rebounds. Kyle Anthony Davis was once labeled a unicorn. A guy so special that he was unlike anything that we had ever seen. And last night he looked absolutely normal playing against Wemby.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I've never. I was. We were talking with some of the ringer staff. One of the fun things about being all here together is we ra. We get to sit in a theater like Mystery Science Theater 3000 and sort of watch games together, which is. I wish we could broadcast it because there was some really incredible sniping going on between Tyler and Kirk that I. That would have loved to get out there to the public. But I was just trying to think back about like who has sort of thrown Anthony Davis around like that in any capacity. I was like, yic has rope a doped AD to death in a lot of situations. I can't remember anyone physically overwhelming him like that. Can you?

[Justin Ferrier]

Especially, especially when AD is jacked like Aaron Donald. He added like 10 pounds of muscle. Yet again looks huge and yet he looked just like kind of like a normal sized player in comparison to Wemby, I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not just that, not just was he bodying him out of the way, but he was targeting. He was going at Anthony Davis, one of the best defensive players in the world, like he was Reed shepherd. Like that. That was the level of. But I'm just saying that's what was happening out there.

[J. Kyle Mann]

This is how you welcome me?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm sorry, I'm. I apologize. But yes, the way able to discard AD and take him off the dribble like he was nothing. Incredibly alarming stuff that has me like very seriously considering being a monk for a while. Like, Justin, how do you feel about group chat live from Tibet? Is that a thing we could do?

[Justin Ferrier]

Do you think we can get that sponsored so we can make that happen?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, that's a big sponsorship on that. I have a stat that I'd like to add on to what Rob said. There was. You want to talk about specifically speaking to what Rob was talking about in this game? I, I went through and charted this. Well, look at this guy. The stat. I couldn't help myself. The stat was The spurs isoed 13 times at 1.308 points for possessions, which is crazy. But then in this game, and a lot of that was during a particular stretch in this game, it's 48, 45 with 3 3rd. Dallas is up 3:30 to go in the first half and spurs go on a 130 run. To end the half. A lot of that was Wimby ISO flat out go. It reminded me of luka going at LeBron. It was some like. It looked like the new. The new robot, like the evolved version of like Ultron coming in and killing his old model or something. It really did. And it just was like if you took. If you were in Photoshop and just did the. The control transform and just dragged 80 out, it was like what would happen if AD were like 80% bigger? And then in the. To start the second half, they go 17 to 3 to start the third and the game was over and that was like AD just was flummoxed.

[Justin Ferrier]

He didn't.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I think we also, you know, I'm not trying to steer the show here, but I think we. I mean it. It does kind of allude to the pressure that this puts on. Cooper is in such a uniquely challenging developmental situation for an 18 year old, perceivably on a competitive roster. We've talked a lot about this, but man, oh man. And the spurs, you know, they were really pouncing on this. They were overplaying dribble handoffs because you could do that kind of shit when you got Victor Winyama behind you.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I mean, Wemby, we've seen it before, just warping the dimensions of the court where the game just looks different tonight, that was just more pronounced. Excuse me, that was more pronounced than I'd seen ever before. And I think the way to kind of bridge these two ideas is that around Wemby, the Spurs put a lot of shooting there. The really only non shooter in air quotes was Stefan Castle, who put it up a couple of times himself and actually made one and looked dynamic in his own right. We should talk about that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

Whereas the Mavs, with all these power forwards on the court just looked incredibly stodgy. And putting the ball in Flag's hand, like they might just suggest something long term about how special he is. But he looked a little lost in his first game where all that attention on him castles in his pocket all night. And it just felt like not only did they not know where to go, they just didn't have any zip to what they were doing because a lot of it just was cramped in the middle with all these guys who were practically sometimes shooters. Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I think that's going to be the case no matter who they start. Like if you want to start d' Angelo Russell at point guard does not change the fundamental problem we're describing. It may make certain things easier for Cooper and Certainly like not having Steph Castle in his jersey might be a benefit to him just from jump, but overall that lift is going to be difficult for him. And he's also walking that very delicate line of like being a rookie on a veteran team where he's playing point guard out of position and trying to defer and set guys up and not try to do too much, but also wanting to prove why he's the number one pick and have a great debut in the way that some other rookies had a great debut last night. It's just a lot to put on him in that moment and to watch on the other side of the court as Victor Wenyama is doing increasingly preposterous shit. I. I don't envy Cooper Flag in that position, that's for sure.

[Justin Ferrier]

So around this time last year, like going into Wemby's first or second game, Rob and I talked about, you know, should Wemby be playing more toward the basket, developing that part of it or stepping back with his jumper. And what's funny is a lot of his highlights were with the jumper, obviously the between the legs, whatever the fuck that was against. Lively into the step back three. One of the most spectacular things I think I've seen for someone on a basketball court, considering the size and difficulty there.

[Rob Mahoney]

He also like eight plays in this game, Justin, that would be the best play of any other player season.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He had a couple. He had a couple where I literally screamed, ah. I did like a Sopranos.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Like I stood up and like walked around. I was, I couldn't, I couldn't process what I was seeing. It was like the number one PJ Washington. Why the hell are you jumping at a ball fake from 18ft? Let him take that shot and. And he goes baseline and does the, the reverse Carter Rock the baby jumping and his toes were touching the ground. Yeah, I just also like, I have a thing too about Wimby. Like, do you guys think that the. The officials are still in the process of like figuring out how to calibrate what. There were a couple like probably goaltends in that game where it's just like he can re. He can high point shots in a way that like no other player has ever been able to do. And I don. Know that the. I just don't know that they fully adjusted to that.

[Justin Ferrier]

It makes you think twice. Like there was one earlier in the game where he got called for it and then the next one which looked like the same exact play, he didn't get called for it. I think the Refs just don't know because they have never seen somebody hit the ball at that apex. But a lot of those plays, the, the really fancy ones were the jump shot. And what was funny though is it almost seemed like his most success came at the basket. Goldsberry had a stat on this I saw kicking around online. Not only were his shots closer in just terms of distance, but 14 made twos last night in Wemby's 118 game career. And I think that's the thing there. I think the jumper, because he cannot be contested because he's so goddamn tall, because he's hitting those with such frequency at this point, or at least confidence that is opening up the drive game in addition to the space he's getting from the rest of his teammates. And so at this point, Rob, like the, the Wemby MVP thing has been kicking around as a possibility. I, I think it's not a possibility anymore. I think it's a likelihood.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it certainly seems like it could be in the air all season. We'll see how. I mean, Luka had an amazing opening night too. We have, we have yet to hear from Nicola Jokic, like there's, there's a lot still in play. But if Wemby is this guy and he is that interior focus and I think most importantly, as you said, Kyle, guys like PJ Washington are biting on those fakes. There's going to be such a fascinating push and pull with that for defenders of like, what is. What will be the book on defending Wemby? What. What is the, the one good game that someone will have that will get out that other teams and players will try to emulate. And I wonder if it will be, do not jump on anything ever. You're not going to contest it anyway. And so you're just going to have to live with. Look, last night he looked like Dirk on Mid Rangers. Like he was hitting everything. And so it is a compulsion to jump at shots like that. But you're just going to have to live with something and you cannot be living with him just having dunk after dunk after dunk. I saw like, look, last season he was already dunking a lot. It was like over 2 2ish a game or so. He had 7 dunks last night like that. That is untenable for any team playing the Spurs. And so you have to give up something. You're not going to give up that.

[J. Kyle Mann]

His roller gravity is unlike anything I've ever seen. Like you. You could watch Dallas's defense like like, it looked like a big person sat on a beanbag. Like, the way it warped, like whenever he cut to the basket, you just saw their defense just go, oh, no. Because everybody was like, we got to at least try to contest the pass. I don't, I don't know. But also, another interesting thing about him that I was seeing in this game is he can create bad shots that other people just can't even, cannot even fathom because he had a play. I think AD was with him step for step, and he did like a pro hop. Like, I don't even know. He just took a huge step into the lane and still had the ball above his head and, and Davis still couldn't get to it. It was kind of a bad shot. He didn't make it. But, you know, he's just kind of figuring out how to, how to, how and where to take those. But, man, when the jumper's going in, he looks like God. And just if you're, if you're talking about him as an mvp, I think it's just a matter of like, how, how sustainable is that? How efficient is he going to be able to continue to be? Because, like, in the backcourt, defensively, Dallas doesn't really present the same thing. It's a lot of guys who are going to sort of try to shadow you, block your shot kind of thing. They're not trying to like dig and steal on the ball as much. It'll be just interesting to watch him against the team like OKC with their roster build, versus. Because the defensive side is where he separates himself from a yoke. It's from the other guys in the. It's just how, how high can his, how high can he sustain that offensive efficiency if he's going to aim for mvp?

[Rob Mahoney]

You know what it was for me, Justin? The MVP play for me, look, there's all the spectacular. Whoa, shit that's happening. That is making you lunge for the remote to rewind. He had a play with A.D. where he was on the, at the three point line, walked A.D. to the block and just did bump, bump, baby hook like he's Al Jefferson. And I'm like, if he's doing that to Anthony Davis, that's scoring stability, right? Like, that's not matchup. That's not situation. That is something you can manufacture anytime you want. And if that's just something he can physically do now against one of the best defensive players in the world, that's how you become the MVP of the league.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I want to say you can't guard him with the center anymore. But then if he's walking ad into the basket, how do you guard him With a big wing and can he shoot over the top? You just live with his jumper. But then if he's making jumpers, how do you live with the jumper? It's. It's an impossible task at this point. And so you're just hoping that you can maybe shut off some of the other guys around there. We should probably talk about some of those guys. First and foremost, the Fon Castle who reigning rookie of the year looked like, just energized in a way that he played with a lot of activity and energy last year just looked like he was completely unleashed in this lineup. He just has definitely a different player than Amend, Thompson, Kyle, but like he has that same effect where he's just doing so many positive things that as we look ahead with the spurs and we use the trade machine, we're like, oh, what can we do there? Where will Fox fit? Where will Harper fit? Castle seems like the obvious choice, but if he's doing this, if he's just like making plays all over the court like he did in this game, I think you kind of live with it.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I think you could kind of start to see some of. Because the thing on Castle before he got to Yukon was just taking it back a little bit, talking about what set his skill set up to thrive so much for San Antonio was he was coming into UConn having been like a little bit of on ball stuff but wasn't quite a shooter yet. And then you saw him over the course of the year play in there like fulcrum a lot of off ball cutting with a big guy in the middle with. With clinging in the middle. You start to see, you started to see him around March start to come on because he was starting to understand what his like hitting singles, you know, in terms of short kind of quick decisions that he could make and have an impact on the game without needing to pound the ball, without needing to be this like prototypical primary that we are obsessed with in this modern era of basketball that he's probably never really going to ever ascend to that level as a shooter. I don't think, I don't think he's ever going to be really the pull up shooter. But he has really seen I think how he's bought in and started to learn about that. So you get sort of the unleashed dog. I thought all the spurs wings just look like a pack of unleashed dogs. Like going at the ball with wimby behind them. And I think he just fits that. And we were talking about it for the season. It's like we have talked a lot about Amin because Amin fits this bill, this mold. But I think Castle's right there too. It's.

[Justin Ferrier]

He's.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He's in a good situation for him and, and Dylan Harper's another one we haven't even talked about.

[Rob Mahoney]

But yeah, just like, then again, Justin talked about like the positive plays that he just pulls out a la Amen Thompson, even if he's not shooting. Like, there's that one possession where he misses the three, but because he's so active, gets the rebound and then all of a sudden he's at the basket drawing a foul. It's like he has a way of correcting even the stuff that he can't do that is so exciting. And then all of the chaos he was creating defensively by speeding up Cooper, Flag, speeding up the handoffs, pressuring, all that stuff super high. It's like if you are rushed on the perimeter by Castle and then freaked out by Wemby inside, your judgment is just completely out the window. Like you have no way of thinking straight as a basketball player at that point.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah. That's why it's so tough to judge Flag. Not only is this his first NBA game, but you're playing against Wemby, who, as we've just talked about for half an hour now, is such a unique NBA player, let alone just being in NBA action for the first time. You had Castle just in your short that entire time. It's just not only bringing the ball up, it just seemed like this was always going to probably be a tough launch for him. But I am curious, Kyle, what you think about the idea of point flag and just the viability of it. Long term, a tough start. But do you think, like more and more reps will help not only just this season, but maybe long term in the development? And that's probably what they should be prioritizing at this point.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, this kind of gets into like four philosophy of like, what you think is best for somebody to develop. Like, what's the best developmental situation. And you know, I, I'm always big on like low stakes reps. Like just feed them to somebody, let them get. Let them mess up and, and learn and kind of. And it's. It's sort of like rookie point guards usually come in, let them be bad for a year, they kind of figure it out.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[J. Kyle Mann]

But with, with Flag, you know, we were kind of talking about this in our season Outlook kind of powwow yesterday, where Flag has been in this pattern of jumping ahead. He's always ahead of the developmental challenge. He never overstays it. You know, he's always young. He gets to the situation and he's tested a little bit. Like last fall at Duke, he had some messy in their early non con stuff. He was a little messy. Justin, we talked about this and wrote about this a lot, and he slowly, over the course of the season, figured it out. We're in that stage again where and I.

[Justin Ferrier]

This is.

[J. Kyle Mann]

This is by far the biggest developmental challenge of his life. I mean, and I don't, you know, Sue. Scalding, scorching hot take there. He's in the NBA. He's 18. He doesn't turn 19 until December. I just think with their personnel challenges and strains. The other thing here is that I am kind of a believer in, you know, the hypertrophy kind of thing, like strain the muscle until it fails and then it comes back stronger kind of a thing. I was always doing the gym, by the way. Yeah, I know. It's just. He'll. He can just speed bag you with his pecs. Justin Verrier. But no, I mean, I just think that was quite the visual. I wish we had an illustrator with that.

[Justin Ferrier]

No, I. Audrey pass coming.

[Rob Mahoney]

There we go.

[Justin Ferrier]

Come to the fore again.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I think that what the Mavs fans are going to be sort of buck buckled up for here is I kind of predicted. I was like, I'm. I'm done predicting against him. I feel like he might just be a star out of the gate here. But this challenge is really, really steep, like, and so I think we're going to be watching a bumpy road until we might have to kind of check back in on this in, like, January, February. To be like, is this kind of steadying at all, or is this Mav situation so bad that we can't even look at it with the same lens that we have in the past?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, it's also not the plan. It's just the temporary plan while Kyrie Irving is injured, while the lineup looks like this. And I also, like we alluded to it earlier, just don't want to overreact to the way that anyone looks against the spurs in the same way that I don't want to overreact to the way that the Rockets offense looked against the Oklahoma City Thunder. The difference in those two situations. The Mavs and the Rockets both playing jumbo right now. Houston has Kevin Durant, like, they have the bailout option in the half court, when things don't work. Anthony Davis is not Kevin Durant. And like, those are the limitations offensively that you're seeing Dallas run into is everything takes a little longer to get into. Everything is crowded and clunky, and there's no guy who's going to bail them out at the end of the clock right now.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I think if a normal organization lucked into drafting Flag first overall, they would have taken a look at this roster and said, actually, let's trade some guys. Let's actually, like, let Flag play into this sort of role or whatever role he ends up being best at. Fortunately, he's kind of thrust into a specific lane out of need because this team does not have a capable point guard. And it's where you worry. I mean, it's the first game. Maybe he turns this around by the weekend and we're talking about something completely different. But this is always the worry where you're putting pressure on a guy who's not even out of his teenage years at this point in order to fill a role with expectations. Not from us. I think all of us were kind of iffy on the Mavs this year. Maybe a play in. There's just a lot of talent, whatever. But I think people were starting to build this momentum where it's like, oh, can Flag lead them into a tox? It's like, at the very least, let's just chill on that and let this guy be who he's going to be.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, you say they don't have a point guard. I, for one, very much enjoyed the Ryan Nemhard minutes opening night. Ryan Nemhard minutes. I was waiting for this classic Jason Kidd shit. Just like, yeah, let's. Let's try this. Let's see if it works. I gotta say, it kind of worked for me. He's not a starting point guard. Yeah, but that's a guard that's all of a sudden in the rotation and could be in a meaningful way.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, he's a solid decision maker. He's has a track record of doing that. We'll see if he can be a good enough shooter or whatever it is he's going to get picked on defensively. I think there are a lot of questions, but he's. He's valuable to have and, you know, once they get everybody back.

[Rob Mahoney]

One other thing about the Cooper at point experiment, I, again, I'm like for it. I. I think it's a good developmental plan. The stakes are what they are. The Mavs want to compete. That makes it kind Of Thorny. My problem is less with Cooper at point and more the PJ Washington Clay combo on the wings.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Clay was suffering last night. You could see him at different points be like, I got to get a shot off. And he just got. Just took whatever he got.

[Rob Mahoney]

He'll just take. He'll just take those shots in those moments. There's also, like, no one for him to guard when the lineup is this big, which is a bit of a problem. I would not hate replacing one of those guys in the starting lineup with Max Christie. Just like a little more shooting, a little more, like, perimeter, like, agility in a way that this lineup kind of needs. Like, you can play Cooper at point, but you need to support him with something a little different than this.

[Justin Ferrier]

There's no flex for the Mavs last night, and the spurs were practically all flex. Another guy who was flexing his muscles in his first game. Look at you, A.J. edgecombe. I'll do better next time. But another rookie. I wasn't expecting this. I know the athleticism was going to be there, but 34 points against the Celtics in his debut alongside Tyrese maxey, who had 40. Just watching those guys just zip around the court for the next five to seven years, I hope is just going to be one of the thrills of watching basketball.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can I say, Justin, you and I vindicated for calling them an entertaining and energetic young backcourt in our preseason power rankings. We were right on three this.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's right. Well, I actually said they would be better off and more fun without having to deal with Joel Embiid. Unfortunately, that looks like to be the case.

[Rob Mahoney]

We. We'll see about that one long term. But the. The early returns on Joel. Rough, to say the least.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Skin bead out there didn't. Yeah, it was. He really wasn't attacking the basket. I mean, no rim pressure at all. Not that he's, you know, become a bastion of. Of rim pressure in the recent years, but. Yeah, he was. It was odd. It was odd. He looked really out of sorts about how and when to attack when he had Kada on him or whoever was guarding him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not everyone can be Dominic Barlow, you know.

[J. Kyle Mann]

True.

[Justin Ferrier]

It's true.

[J. Kyle Mann]

A lot of interesting reactions to Barlow being on the court. Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

I mean, yeah. Edgecom, though. 34 points in the debut. Third most in history. Best since Wilt Chamberlain. Crazy. Pretty good. Vijay was also on Good Morning America. Was he this morning about his performance. I don't know if that was pre programmed or what, but that seems atypical even for a high scoring Rookie just an absolute blur. Like, unbelievable athleticism. Kyle, what'd you see in that debut?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I think you're just seeing. You just see the seas are parting for him in terms of the space that he has because he was on sort of a couple, like, ball dominant. He was playing with a couple, couple ball dominant upperclassmen last year. It was just a classic case of a college system that didn't have a good flow. And you just see even for a team that has a lot of things to work on, like the Sixers, he just had a lot more. He was catching. You know, you. You could kind of see Derek White work through the course of that game to be like his gap. Coverage was interesting with Edgecomb early in the game, where he was just fully, completely almost standing next to whoever was guarding Maxi and conceding. And you could kind of watch over the course. You know, there was one step towards Edgecomb, two steps towards him, and he was just knocking down shots. I mean, which is interesting that. I thought it was interesting that White and Edgecomb were guarding each other, because I feel like the apex version of Edgecomb, you know, unless he takes a big handling leap, which is on the table. But I think one of the outcomes for him that could make him a very valuable winning player is a version of Derrick White with supercharged athleticism.

[Rob Mahoney]

Because we could all be a little more like Derek White in our.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, what you're seeing is a guy who is a ball mover, a guy who gives you extra disruption off the ball. Like, he can get up and he's very quick off of his feet. Um, he had shot blocking. He's a really good rebounder for his position. But what I love about him, man, is that he's going to make open shots if he's an engaged cutter who can finish. I love the play where he had a baseline cut and he saw Keda there and he was just like, I'm going to ground Kada, jumped into his body, jumped over, finished him. And I was like, nuts. I underestimated how like immediately ready he would be to go. Now is he dynamic shooter? We'll see. But open shots, I trust him already.

[Rob Mahoney]

But even that is kind of unusual for me. It's like when I think of guys who have his level of athleticism and he was eye popping in college. He's even eye popping against NBA competition, clearly in terms of the burst speed. Also how, like smoothly he navigates through the defense is just a kind of coursing through guys in a way that kind of can't be stopped or denied. When a guy is that athletic, often you'll see them with their jumper trying to do too much. I think about Russell Westbrook a lot with this. It's like they feel like they have to get so much lift in order to flex the thing that's. That's their advantage or they've just kind of always played that way. What was remarkable watching Edgar just like can these open shots is his shot is so compact, very smooth, very easy, very repeatable. And he's going to be playing off of Tyrese Maxey and presumably a better version of Joel Embiid, along with everyone else the Sixers have at their disposal. All of a sudden, like, that's a really helpful off ball player in addition to everything else he's doing.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

His speed in bursts off the catch was unbelievable. Like the ball would swing to him. And he also had the presence of mind to make such a quick decision that he wasn't overthinking that, which you typically see with some rookies. He knew. And probably because he has blinders on, probably because he's so overconfident, he doesn't think any other way. Like he was downhill in an instant and he's so fast and so explosive that there really was no stopping the play that Kyle is referring to with Keda. I think it was the second time he touched the ball and he was ready to fucking end Keda like immediately. There was that play where Tillman got switched onto him or was a cross match and transition on the perimeter. He was trying to send him to early retirement, like immediately. And that sort of like killer instinct that's going to like, like allow him to add on some of those more advanced skills. Because right now it's all pure athleticism and just intuition.

[Rob Mahoney]

But it wasn't just Tillman and Kate at too. Like you saw him dust Jaylen Brown. I think he's just, he's gonna be one of those kinds of athletes who the cross matches have no shot, the switches have no shot if he has any momentum. And this is where he really benefits from not having to be the guy out of the gate is everything he's catching is in semi transition on the weak side against a rotating defense. Like he's able to really leverage moving it that quickly and making decisions that quickly. But if you're rotated or switched or cross matched at all, you're just not going to have a chance to keep up with him.

[J. Kyle Mann]

If it's one move. If it's one move, you know, I'm Going to. If he gets caught, like it gets a rotate. If it's like a one move situation, he's going to lose you and you know, uh, he just will. He's so graceful. That's the other thing too. You were talking. I. It is interesting. You were talking about athletes when they get in the lane. I mean, Ant had a little bit of this too. You just see this, like really hard to harness raw power when they get in the lane. Amin has some of this too. But that play that you were talking about when he. When he dusted. Dusted is our. Is our term of choice here. Tillman. Chris Ryan was so happy about that. He bought me a hamburger.

[Rob Mahoney]

Whoa.

[Justin Ferrier]

Chris was also calling him Vijay Edgewood. Edge. Edgewood Dolla the other day. I don't know if you guys caught that. If I can get that out.

[Rob Mahoney]

I heard that one too.

[Justin Ferrier]

It.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's honestly kind of the role he's playing is like the early Iguodala with Iverson kind of role.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

He's also wearing number 77 though, which is badass.

[J. Kyle Mann]

It's so badass.

[Justin Ferrier]

No, I was going to say that's disgusting. No, it's like the quarterback in BYU wearing 47. You can't be wearing an offensive lineman's number if you're one of the most dynamic players in NBA.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I'm sorry, man.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the only argument against is Luka other than that I like 77.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Luka's got that weird Euro thing going on. I just think, like. And he needs to go by Valdez. I just. I'm going to just say this over and over again. That's the coolest name. I was giving Tyler a lot of grief for that not being on his list. Valdez, Edge comb wearing 77. Jersey sales off the charts. Have to be. And jersey sales for people like me who don't want to show their arms.

[Justin Ferrier]

But yeah, I'll say on the flip side though, with the Celtics just briefly. Such a weird experience seeing them in this state. They almost were. Yeah, they almost won. I mean, we'll see how good the Sixers are. Are long term. But didn't take a 3 until the middle of the first quarter, which the broadcast crew was tracking with great interest because they were just like. They didn't know how to act. There was like an isolation place specifically drawn up for bait. And Richard. Don't know if I've seen a lot of those lately. And then just Anthony Simons just not knowing how to play defense at all. Something I'm very familiar with. But something that like Boston Celtics fans are not. And I think everyone was like a little shook where it's like, oh shit. This is actually different in ways that like are going to affect how we appreciate basketball.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think also Derrick White taking 20 shots. 20 shots, I'm here for it. That's something I have not seen very often, if at all, in terms of games that I've actively been watching. How many times in his career Derek White has played almost 500 games in a non overtime game, do you think he has taken 20 shots.

[Justin Ferrier]

Last time?

[Rob Mahoney]

No, not last time. How many times total has he attempted 20 shots in a non overtime game?

[Justin Ferrier]

I'll say three.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I was going to say, since he's asking us, it has to be something like. I'll, I'll say four.

[Rob Mahoney]

It is six. Okay, so maybe I abated you guys in the wrong direction, but preposterous. And some of those are again like Celtics games where guys were out, spurs games where he is the only thing going. This is a different version of Derek White that is kind of like post being unlocked in the minimalistic way. And now all of a sudden has to fill the entire room more or less by himself with some of these lineups.

[Justin Ferrier]

So we had a bunch of action last night. I've only been able to catch up with half of it. I did the thing that I told myself I wasn't going to do where it's like I want to watch a full game and I want to pay attention to that one and not get distracted by all this other action. As soon as like that 4:30 window kicked in, I'm watching like a 4 box with this other game on the TV, not processing anything. So I had to go back, back and watch a bunch this morning. But is there anything other, like news and notes you guys got from the action that you watched?

[Rob Mahoney]

Rob, anything jump out to you watching the Orlando Magic?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Who? Orlando Magic.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're gonna be hearing that a lot this season. I suspect.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Flat there.

[Justin Ferrier]

My bad.

[Rob Mahoney]

They did not defend well at all against the Miami Heat, who as we alluded to, played quite well in terms of the standards of the Heat roster especially. But seeing the Paolo Franz Bane experiment, all those guys going for 20, they're going to be really tough to beat when they do that, when they, when they figure out how to get back to their kind of defensive baseline. If those guys are performing in that way. And we're already seeing the way that they can kind of work together and off of each other. Pretty, pretty glaring stuff even for a game that didn't quite go according to plan for them.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, Magic have a lot to figure out there. Tyus Jones didn't play well. Suggs barely played. I think he only played like 17 minutes or something like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

But like they were allowed 17 minutes. It was like, oh, my God. Crazy, terrible fouls at the beginning and then game changing plays.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Such a maniac. Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

At the end of the game, there's one play where someone dared to go underneath on him and he just drilled the three. I was like, holy shit, the Magic can do that on offense.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I'm the Titanic meme. It's been 84 years or whatever. Like how? Yeah, okay.

[Justin Ferrier]

There was also that pretty crucial play where Bane dug out a ball on the floor in order to like seal the game, basically. And what was funny is that Suggs also got on the floor, but by the time he got there, he realized Bane was already there. And then. So it was like a real like, hustle, Eskimo bro sort of situation going on there. It was just like very much like kindred spirits. And so Wendell Carter also had a bunch of massive offensive rebounds and looked kind of like possessed in a good way where he was dunking on guys. So definitely took a while to get there. But the Magic, they definitely have something.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, a couple things. I mean, just like a live dribble, shooter, passer. I think Bane's a little better passer than people give him credit for. But just adding that to what they. There were a couple different instances where I was like, okay, all right. Where late in the game there was a transition sequence where Suggs. I forget who came up with the ball. I think it was Suggs, but he intentionally gave the ball up to. To Bane and Bane brought the ball up and then you had Suggs sort of in one. One step to the right. And then you had Paolo who just ran ahead on ahead of Suggs. And you had this thing where you have this guy that you really have to respect and you could just see the defense move towards Bane and then you could see. And once they did that, Bane was just like, okay, I'm going to throw the ball to Paolo. But I just think the. The thing that what this could do for Paolo to me is pretty enormous if he's willing to lean into it. I don't have the, like advanced tracking stuff in front of me, but there was a play early in the game too, where he's screening for Bane. And I just feel like the more Paolo leans into that, the less pressure we're going to need to See, you know, we've been talking with him and he and Cade both, I think over the beginning of their career we've been like, like, okay, if they can be efficient scores, we've seen some of the passing. Granted they're a little bit different players, but if Paolo will lean into that, I just think it's going to change his life in so many ways. And another thing, man, I was telling you all this is something I feel passionately about if you're a superstar in the NBA. Not that it's my place to lecture anyone that they know a lot more about basketball than me, but classic, know it all. Kyle, man, set a screen, just be a screener. Just like if I were running a basketball team, man, just the value that you, the threat of you scoring in an action, like just really lean into it. I would, I would put it into dudes contracts. Yeah, I'd be like, I want you screening this many times a game and you'll get a bonus. I won't say you'll lose money, but you will get a bonus if you do this. So I just. There's a lot of things to figure out for them. There's. I think we're just getting it started.

[Rob Mahoney]

So there is some truth to the idea that like once you think you're above screening, you've really already kind of lost something in terms of the trajectory of your game. And so, yeah, that's.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's Rob with podcasts. He set anybody up anymore.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I feel like I do nothing but screen around here. I feel like I am nothing but Desmond Bain hitting the ground, getting floor burned.

[Justin Ferrier]

You're Rudy girl bear setting those screen.

[Rob Mahoney]

Assists via pod form and then screaming for the basketball inside like, please God, pass it back to me. But like the Bane element of that, in terms of the pick and roll game with Paolo, they went to it, they started with it and got some nice, like little tic tac toe stuff for a Wendell Carter lob. They came back to it in the end, which is always reassuring that it feels confident for them. It's also so different from the Franz Paulo stuff where that's so easily switchable because those guys are already so big. The guy the teams are going to put on Desmond Bain is like a chase defender and the guy that you're going to put on Paolo is not that. And so you, you're already seeing the switches that can result from that kind of action. That's just a totally new wrinkle that Orlando did not have access to before.

[J. Kyle Mann]

This is my thing in the off season too, that like, if you, if you have the luxury to do it, you know, I, like I was saying earlier, we were so. We got so obsessed with the spread. Put your best player and pick a roll if you have the luxury to get your. Your off. We would all agree, I would say still that Desmond Maine is their offensive. There are people that they're love. There's some Franz truthers, but Bane is still their primary. And if you can get him in a situation where he's maybe the, he catches the ball, he's maybe not the first touch in the, in the offense, if you put him in that kind of situation, you're just going to put him in these advantageous looks that he's going to be able to feast on. I don't know why you wouldn't do it.

[Justin Ferrier]

So.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hi, my name is Rob Mahoney. I am a Franz Wagner truther. I will not take this slander from you.

[J. Kyle Mann]

No, no. I mean, there are truthers that say he's better than Paolo. Is that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, no, I'm not quite at that level.

[J. Kyle Mann]

That's what I was saying. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

But like I, I think the, the power of Franz's game now is that he doesn't have to be on the ball as much. And I think the downstream effect of what we're talking about is when you have Bane handling the ball more or as you said, even just bringing it up before that was Paolo or Franz doing that. So then they could hand it off to Suggs and get in the action. That's asking. Even just like incrementally a little more of them. And then you see later in the game now they're just that much more tired because they had to do all this little extra ball handling along the way. You saw in this game, Franz Wagner just punching through drives in the moments where Paulo's off the floor or Bane is off the floor, like they're going to have so much more burst because they're able to share the responsibility.

[Justin Ferrier]

Listen, there's a lot to figure out in Orlando, but watching their offense was pleasurable for the first time in.

[J. Kyle Mann]

How about that?

[Justin Ferrier]

Who knows how long. Like I have watched a lot of Magic games, I particularly focused on the defensive end and a lot of choking down their offensive possessions. But there's like a breath of fresh air thing going on with watching them to the point where this Heat, Heat, Magic clash was a real offensive, like back and forth for a long time. And we should talk about the Heat just briefly because I'm starting to believe at the very least, that what they were talking about in the off season, Rob, that, like, they were going to be a bit more decisive, a little bit more off tempo. Things that coaches say every preseason of every NBA season they're actually doing. And it looked pretty good, especially from the jump.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. I mean, Norm Powell is nothing if not decisive. Like, that guy will go to the basket, will get to his spots. He looked pretty awesome. I thought just like getting into floater range, getting into his drives, that is something that you're not getting from the Andrew Wiggins types on this team. And we'll see how it all blends when Tyler Herro comes back. I thought. I thought Herro had quite a decisive season in terms of the way he was attacking last year, but what does he look like when he comes back? What is he trying to accomplish when he's on the floor? There's just still, like, a lot to wonder with the Heat, but this was. This was a great debut for them.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah. I did have a moment in last night's game, just a little anecdote where someone drove to the basket and I was like, oh, who's. Who was that 22 for? Oh, yeah, that was Andrew Wiggins. Yeah, I just like completely. Which I think speaks to his existence as a player. But, yeah, Fontechio still. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

One of the big Tech, still great. Jaime Hawkez.

[Justin Ferrier]

Alive, Alive. Looks reborn to him that I don't remember ever seeing with Sacramento. It's just like, I think they have enough high floor guys that with Spoelstra in his hands, something can happen. We'll see if it carries on. Things definitely fell apart toward the end there, but there's a lot of talent on the roster, and that's going to get you somewhere in the East.

[Rob Mahoney]

The Miami Heat. Something can happen. Buy your season tickets today.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Put that on the floor instead of Heat culture. Something can happen. Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

All right. Do you guys have anything else you want to hit from last night?

[Rob Mahoney]

Night? I just would like the Atlanta Hawks, who have really good defensive personnel, to actively participate in playing defense again. And I. I eagerly await that happening.

[Justin Ferrier]

That was brutal. I think it was 37 points in the paint. Right. Or 37 baskets.

[Rob Mahoney]

The transition stuff was hideous. Just like, straight up embarrassing.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, that's one of those results where I'm like, let's wait and see, because I think the Raptors will be much improved, but I can't imagine Brandon Ingram is going to be just like a dynamic ball handler is making that much happen, but we'll see. I think it's an encouraging start. And we got to see their head coach basically try to fight all their players. And in celebratory fashion, in the locker room, which was always fun.

[Rob Mahoney]

Manual Quickley was not ready for all that. He was not ready for the Darko rounds that he made through the locker room.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Passionate guy. I always feel like. I feel like Darko is always, like, he feel. He looks like he has just got done, like, getting so mad. He, like, welled up to tears before he delivers any point, which is just a nice conviction to have in a huddle. I do think. Should we not speak on the fact that the Clippers just absolutely grabbed the bed? I mean, what was that about? I messaged Robin. I was like, what do you think about the Clippers transition offense? And he was like, do they have one? I was like, correct.

[Rob Mahoney]

Unclear.

[Justin Ferrier]

The shirts didn't work. How. I don't know if you saw that, Kyle. They were wearing these shirts about getting back, and that was the problem. Why they lost to the Nuggets. Didn't fix it.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Jeff Van Gundy not happy. Yeah, yeah. Stomping his foot. Yeah, it was, it was odd. I, I, they just look completely discombobulated in that game. I don't know. They look old. I, you know, it's what everybody was saying about them, but I'm just hearing.

[Rob Mahoney]

A lot about the Clippers and not enough about, like, Bryce Sensiba, who you cannot stop but can only hope to contain.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's true.

[J. Kyle Mann]

There's a lot of sensible fans out there. We could, we could. But, I mean, I just think. I mean, I guess they just. The Jazz saw a lot to gain out of this, and the Clippers just weren't ready to play. I mean, I think it's probably as simple as that. I don't know. Do you think it's different?

[Justin Ferrier]

No, I, I mean, clearly Kawhi is just so daunted by his offseason transgressions. He just can't lock in. That must be the case.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you think he felt a weight lifted today? He's like, oh, my God. Thank. Thank goodness there's another scandal that will just shield him from any kind of scrutiny.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yes, I, I think so.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is.

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Is unyielding, unconstrained.

[J. Kyle Mann]

One who navigates life on their own terms effortlessly. They do not always show up on.

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Time, but when they arrive, you notice.

[J. Kyle Mann]

An individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Teen, the new fragrance by Miu Miu defined by you.

[Justin Ferrier]

While we're getting to know some of the new faces and new places, why don't we get. Get to know each other a little bit better? We did a little bit of this in our preseason pods, but now that Kyle's around, I feel like we should find more out about me and. And my takes. And so I'm good. I'm introducing a new segment that, if it goes well, I want to do many times again. Perhaps it's called Name that take. Named after Name that Tune. I don't know if you guys have ever watched.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not a single time, Kyle.

[J. Kyle Mann]

You know, it's just kind of. Maybe I saw it at some point. I don't know. You gonna, like, throw to, like, a Lawrence Welt clip? What are we doing? I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

It feels like we got like a Wayne Brady revival at some point.

[Justin Ferrier]

No, it was the woman from. Oh, who's the Liz Lemon Show?

[Rob Mahoney]

30 Rock.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

30 Rock. Yeah. Who's the. Who's the blonde woman? I didn't watch 30 Rock. Unfortunately.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Way to bring it up. You haven't seen it. That was smooth.

[Justin Ferrier]

She's the one doing the show now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, yeah. It's Whose line that is in anyway?

[Justin Ferrier]

Right?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Is that what you.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's where I thought they looped Wayne Brady into some kind of sing songy type show.

[J. Kyle Mann]

They're destroying this. Yeah, this is.

[Justin Ferrier]

This is great radio right now, but. So if you're not familiar with Name that Tune, the basic structure of it is there are two contestants and they are given a clue and they have to go back and forth, wagering in how many notes they can name that tune. I believe they start at 10. And so if Rob is one contestant, they'll say, I can name that tune in 10. And Kyle will be like, I could actually name it in eight. And they go back and forth until someone throws down the gauntlet and says, you have to name that tune. Well, we're going to do that for the NBA and specifically for NBA Bold takes. I have the take. I'm going to give you guys the topic, and you have to wager back and forth and how many clues you can get in order to figure out the take.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, got it, Got it.

[Justin Ferrier]

Any. Any confusion?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think we're ready.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Let's just do it.

[Justin Ferrier]

Okay, the first topic, the Houston Rockets. And Kyle, since you're the new guy here, why don't you start and how many clues can you name that take? Three. Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm gonna say I can do it in two. And to Clarify. We are trying to pin down the Justin Barrier register trademark take.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He has a huge advantage here. That's fine. But, yeah, that's.

[Justin Ferrier]

Let's.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Let's play it out.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's see if I fall flat on my face here before anything happens.

[Justin Ferrier]

Kyle, you're up in the wagering. You either need to say one or to tell him to name that take.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Wait, I can guess what I think the take is now I get two guesses, or you're either.

[Rob Mahoney]

You're either upping the ante where you think you can name it in one clue, or you name that take.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I know I can't name the take, so I'm just gonna. I'm not gonna up my ante, so.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right, let's.

[Justin Ferrier]

Let's tell Rob. Rob. Name that take.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Name that take.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is a seamless game we have created.

[Justin Ferrier]

Okay, Rob, the topic is the Houston Rockets.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Justin Ferrier]

Your first clue.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Okay.

[Justin Ferrier]

Trade deadline.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay. Yep. All right.

[Justin Ferrier]

Clue number two. Yep. Reed Shepherd. Can you name that take?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I think the easy version of this take is that by the trade deadline, the Rockets need to flip Reed shepherd for a functional starting point guard today. Would Justin go with a take that's that straightforward, though? Would he lean into something even more extreme, or would he have a very specific name on the books, trying to think of what point guards might be available? Who is it that might be even in play for a team like Houston at that point? You know what? Here's what I'm going to say. Justin's take is actually Reed shepherd seems like too much to give up for this player. The Houston Rockets should trade reed shepherd for CJ McCollum. That's. That's my Justin Baron take.

[J. Kyle Mann]

That would be a bad trade, unfortunately.

[Justin Ferrier]

Is incorrect because that's a terrible trade. Yep.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, that's why I thought you might propose it.

[Justin Ferrier]

So you were close. I actually didn't go that bold in this one.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

I have. As the take, the Rockets will trade Reed Shepherd. It is a projection before the trade deadline and relegate tall ball to a playoff wrinkle where it should have stayed. Because I'm not burying Reed Shepherd. I don't know what he's going to be as a prospect. Frankly, I just don't think that he has the margin for error. And the Houston Rockets don't necessarily have the flex, considering the injury to Fred Van Vliet and some of the injuries they're also experiencing with Dorian, Finney Smith and whatnot. In order to give Shepard the room to figure out who he is and as we saw in game one, it just, it doesn't look like it's going to click within their system. And I also wonder if going to tall ball to start the season was a real way of looking at how they view their team one and where they think their strengths lie. And I wonder if those two things clash. And so ultimately I would like to see them if they're going to make a trade, swing for the fence. I have to wonder, Kyle, if you would make a deal with let's say the Boston Celtics for Derek White.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Oh, for Derek. Oh yeah. I mean I'd weigh. Yeah, White is who I would want. Simons for some reason came to mind, but I don't think he may would want any part of Anthony Simons.

[Justin Ferrier]

Well, here's the complicating factor for Evely is on a one plus one basically has a no trade clause. Would he be interested going to the Celtics? Would the Celtics be interested in picking him up as a stopgap to next year when Tatum will presumably be healthy? Can you pick up someone like Tari east and or Reed plus picks? Is that interesting to the Celtics or do we trade Reed somewhere else? But basically I'm trying to swap Derek White for Reed Shepherd.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I don't know that the Reed thing, I just, I feel like his lev. Their leverage with Reed is probably more compromised than it's ever been right now because everybody watched that game. Everybody just like what he's ready to do. Granted, if you want, if the, if you wanted to simulate the toughest test imaginable for the Reed shepherd experiment, he looked terrified out at near hat. Did you see him like stop at half court and be like come get it, please. I love Reed, but like he's not ready to dribble against that type of ball pressure. He's just not that type of player. I just don't know that they'll do that. I, I think Eason is more. I could see someone who believes in their player development looking at Eason and being like we can really get something out of that. Get Fran Van Valley, get Tari Eason and maybe some draft capital and then you get somebody like Derek White. Might. What would happen to that team if they got Derek White?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean it would be incredible.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Like they'd be.

[Justin Ferrier]

I'd love it.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, he's the perfect fit for them.

[Rob Mahoney]

I guess on the read front. Like if Amin Thompson is healthy, I think Houston wins that game. Like he had to leave early, compromise them, not just offensively. Like he was the one guy who could actually drive and get past an initial line of defense on that team at that point. But then also Tari had to come in miscast, I would say defensively, like the things that I love that Tari Eason does on defense are mostly as a chaos agent. They are not. Oh, you have to somehow hang with Shay Gil just Alexander for these possessions. Which is how all of a sudden you get a lot of not just Reed shepherd, but Joshua Kogi in crunch time.

[Justin Ferrier]

Lot of Kogi off the rails. Yeah. Well, that's why I'm wondering about the bigger picture thing here and whether or not the big old front court with Shen Goon and Adams is ultimately probably best served as a curveball, like something that you have in your arsenal to throw out when the advantage presents itself. And I could see the thinking on opening night where with OKC being a little bit small, J Dub not being in there and getting. Getting the advantage there. They did dominate the boards in that game. But I'm also wondering if that is your base set that you're hoping to go through this season. One of the precious few for Kevin Durant. Still probably playing at an all star level. And you can't run really. The shooting seems compromised, especially if Doran Phinney Smith's not gonna be there. Is he even gonna really help much because he's not a volume shooter? Is Reed gonna be able to fill that role? It just seems messy right now and I wonder if the time is now to clarify that. That to help yourself now and then in the future.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I think if you're starting from the mindset of a. If of an aspiring playoff team, you could just simply. It could be as simple. It should be as simple as just going. Do we have multiple looks? They don't. So whether or not that's their primary look or not, I think on a game to game game basis that could shift. If they have a huge advantage, they could start with that and then go to a counter punch. They need more options and they just don't have any right now. Rob and I were talking about how the hilarity of, of the second Spectrum said that they drove the ball, I think like 54 times. It didn't seem like that. I think that counts.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like Sengun moonwalking into the pain is not a drive. Yeah, it's just not.

[Justin Ferrier]

Well, that's the other thing. Is Sengun going to play like slimmer Jokic for the rest of this?

[Rob Mahoney]

He might pretty awesome.

[Justin Ferrier]

Euro basket was incredible and I have high hopes for him, but I don't know if he's going to be able to shoot at that level for an entire season. He was basically their go to three point shooter.

[Rob Mahoney]

He was awesome and worked really well as a hub. I thought, like, like, dealt really well with the pressure that the Thunder were throwing at him. See, I'm not ready to bail on the the double big look yet as their kind of default set. I think it makes a little bit more sense when you have another guard out there if it's by trade or otherwise. And even within this game against the best defense in the world. When Adams and Shangun were out there together. 115 offensive rating, that's more than good enough. Like, you just have to have enough other stuff around the edges and kind of filling out the rotation for it to all make sense.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Their 3, 4, 5 beef was just noticeably bigger than. Than OKC. As incredible as OKC is. And yeah, they. They made a lot out of it.

[Justin Ferrier]

Some big old boys up there. All right, topic number two. Matt Ishbia. Rob. Oh, you're gonna start the bidding, I see.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think Justin could go in a lot of different directions with this one, and I'm a little gun shy after whiffing so hard on everyone. So I'm gonna say I could do it in four clues.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I could try to do it in three. I'm not confident.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know what? Name that Name that take, Kyle. I want to see you name that take.

[Justin Ferrier]

All right, Kyle. The topic again is Matt Ishbia. Clue number one. The ringer.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, yeah, that feels like a given.

[Justin Ferrier]

Well, it's the first clue. First clue is the easiest one. Okay, Number two. Pointed but not altogether mean tweets. Okay.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Okay.

[Justin Ferrier]

Clue number three. These clues aren't very good. I'm sorry. Clue number three. Different culture and different team in PHX this year. Let's go. So those are your three clues, Justin.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm really glad I bailed on this.

[J. Kyle Mann]

One mistake is it's actually kind of cool that Matt Ishby has stood up for his team publicly.

[Justin Ferrier]

Oh, I like where your head's at, but I'm sorry, that's also incorrect. The real take was we now live in a world where Michael Pena may have an impact on an NBA team. And that frightens me more than global warming.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Pena's tickled pink. I know that. Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

So I don't know for the audience, I don't know if you've caught this, but there was an item In Pena's column. 24 increasingly bold predictions. Let's keep that in mind. Where he projected that the Suns would have the worst defense events in the NBA this season. Matt Ishbia got very mad at this and for some reason tweeted at Bill and Bill's kind of like what the. Which I thought was very fun to see all play out. But in particular, I think Pino Rob might be in a position where he is spurring the Suns to prove him wrong.

[Rob Mahoney]

Did they?

[Justin Ferrier]

We'll see. I mean, they gave up 116 offensive rating to the Kings last night.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think 70 something in the first half alone.

[J. Kyle Mann]

They look like they were on track. Yeah, it was looking rough at halftime.

[Justin Ferrier]

But yeah, I think that the bigger issue is also that they're not starting a single of the true centers that they've spent so much capital accruing. So I know Mark Williams is being paid back, but like Osogadaro is at center, I just don't know what's going on.

[Rob Mahoney]

I do like Oso and as far I do. Clearly that is representative of part of the philosophy here, which is Oso gives you more options defensively, gives you the flexibility to do what they did and kind of flipping over in the halves and course correcting their defense a little bit. But. But it certainly did look like Michael Pena was quite prescient in terms of the first half.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, being. Being cute and switchable is only going to get you so far unless you have somebody that is like world class, you know, and as we've seen with Wimby, we have even a trump card for that at some point. But I also give maybe, you know, I could see, I could imagine the thinking of Oso is a good passer, is a guy who's smart playing in the open floor and can kind of take some of the playmaking load off of a Dylan Brooks, a Jalen Green, Devin Booker, capable passer, but setting him up so you could see that. But yeah, they're in a tough spot where they're caught between not using that size because Mark Williams not a great passer. Molach we'll see someday. But yeah, they're kind of caught in a tough spot here with their choices.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's no question that Mike is moving the market, though. Like the. The lines, clearly, everything is shifting in his world.

[Justin Ferrier]

I have a hard time believing they'll be worst, but I appreciate just the boldness of the take, which is the whole point of the column to begin with.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Who will be worst? That's a good question.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, just quickly, the Clippers made a strong opening claim.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, Wizards are out there. There's A lot of competition for that spot, unfortunately. Yeah. All right, topic number three broadcasts. Kyle, you're up first in the wagering. Five clues on the table.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Two.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, see, I thought I had a pretty good hold on where Justin might be going.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Here's my whole philosophy. Who the fuck cares? You know what?

[Rob Mahoney]

Name that Take Kyle.

[Justin Ferrier]

Okay, Kyle, two clues on the board for the topic broadcasts. Your first clue. NBA on NBC. Yep.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Okay.

[Justin Ferrier]

As expected. And number two, Internet dweebs. What is my take?

[J. Kyle Mann]

They could use a little more Internet style dweebery on this. All player all. It's. It's a little.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is not. I don't know.

[J. Kyle Mann]

That was more the Kyle tank. It was very. They need a little more nerdery. They need a. I'm trying to think of a great. They need like a John Schumann type guy to balance the player perspective on these broadcasts.

[Justin Ferrier]

No, no. No way in hell.

[Rob Mahoney]

The Justin Barrier take is that the Internet dweebs are pissing themselves over a. This is the words of Justin Barrier in my mind. Lukewarm NBC product.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Okay.

[Justin Ferrier]

Very, very close.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Okay, well, they are tandem. That's my take. But that's okay. Yes. So I agree with you. They do. I did enjoy the nostalgia, but I do think that they need to mix it a little bit with something else. Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

So the specific thing I have written down here is the NBC broadcast was fine at best, manipulative at worst, and everyone will turn on it by mid season.

[Rob Mahoney]

Where did you feel manipulated in the.

[Justin Ferrier]

Nostalgia play of it all? And I have to say, like, if that's your thing. Not trying to yuck anybody's yum ultimately.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, first of all, yes, you are constantly trying to yuck people's yum.

[J. Kyle Mann]

It's kind of your thing. That's true.

[Justin Ferrier]

Okay, fine, I am and I hate all of you, but I too felt the tugs of the heartstrings when I saw the logo come in and round ball rock and obviously Michael Jordan being there is just awesome. It's just great to see the legacy. But I found it odd when people wanted to suggest when Dr. Twitter becomes marketed Executive Twitter and it's like this is the mold in order to save the NBA from whatever morass it's in now because of ratings, yada yada. That's where like I have to call bullshit there. Because yes, the nostalgia was fun, but I just don't know how much you can coast on that alone. And in my opinion, I found the broadcast to be totally fine. Like all of the presentations seemed like pretty typical Drico and Noah Eagle also pretty good play by Pelly guys. I'm excited to see what they could do, but the actual talent is just a lot of retreads. It's like Reggie who stinks. Vince Carter, Grant Hill. Guys who haven't really like found anything interesting. I actually don't like either of them. I tend to think that they're very milquetoast and if anything there's a lot of people being like, oh, what we need to do is celebrate the NBA. Yeah. And like, and just really uplift the, the message. The Conor being like the who you play, who he play for, TNT style of thing. I just don't buy that. Like, I think being honest is actually fun and like we're not complicit in how the NBA markets its product. Product. I think a lot of this probably stems ultimately from hatred for ESPN, which I 100% agree that broadcast stinks. I think trying to bring in TNT was a weird move. I'm glad those guys are still around. I had a lot of fun with them last night. But it is weird to see the exact same set but then the logo is changed. As espn, I'm more excited ultimately for the future, not the past. And so I'm more excited to see what Amazon has to say here.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean you've always been guy, you know me.

[Justin Ferrier]

Those Bezo bucks are just affording a lot of the. The furniture that I have going on in this apartment. But I just think like they stock their entire crew with new voices who have recently played like Dirk and Nash is always someone who has something interesting to say about the league. I saw that they got Marcus Thompson to do like just essays. Like there's just like a real like approach there and something that's thinking forward and not backward. And I actually like that way more than what MBC NBC is doing.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't disagree with the Amazon part of that take. I think the NBC elements still felt welcome to me. It was clearly a nostalgia bait. But they also kind of tipped their hat to the fact that it was nostalgia bait by having all the young players come up like with being prompted for their memories that they don't have of the last time the NBA was on NBC, which I appreciated. Ultimately, I didn't find the studio panel elements of the show to be riveting television. It did, however. And maybe this is just because it was on NBC and because of the nostalgia and because it was opening night felt like more of an event, frankly, than some of the ESPN broadcasts did. And so I'm eager to see in the flow of the regular season. Is that still the case? Will it just kind of wear off over time, as you're saying, Justin? And people kind of turn on the broadcast. But, like, I do appreciate the enthusiasm. I think the cynicism of inside is fine. But when it is the only definitive voice on the NBA, that is a bad thing. And ESPN had no voice in terms of its panel shows covering games, or it was strictly a transactional voice or a feeder, like, fodder for first take kind of voice. So one that is eager to talk about basketball and excited to talk about basketball, even if it is a little hollow. I. I'm fine with that. For a broadcast product, I think they.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Need to mix in. I said the nerd part. But really, I mean, what. Among the player portion of what they're trying to do? I just think they need a little bit of the lesser player. Lesser. I mean, if I'm thinking of, like, the Legler Reddick, those are both good NBA players.

[Justin Ferrier]

But, like.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Like, I. I think they need a little bit of somebody who has less to lose in terms of just mixing it up and being brutally honest. I think that would enjoy. That would improve the product. But, you know, just on a lighter note, I felt like it was a total dereliction of duty that they didn't have Bob Costas do an opening. Like, come on, what are we doing? I'm really biased towards that because it's my favorite. But also, just another idea. I'll. I'll toss this to you guys. Hologram. AI Bill, Walt Disney. What do we have to lose? We could even get the. We could get the perm that he had in the 90s.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Shaquille O' Neal needs to dunk the ball. You know, like, we need to get. We need him to go at somebody, you know? Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

Overall sound crazy, but I think Kyle's onto something. I want to see more innovation. For instance, I was watching hologram. Sure. Or just how about this? No sideline interviews. What value do those have to talk to a sweaty player who's going to just, like, give you a banal response to a bad question, like, why do we need those? Or the pregame differently.

[Rob Mahoney]

Jabari Smith stops by the table interview.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I had an idea. I had an idea. Like, I was watching the Hornets game. Gave me. The other night gave me this idea. We have just random.

[Justin Ferrier]

This could.

[J. Kyle Mann]

This could go into the NBA rules, too, Rand. Each head coach gets a random mandatory polygraph test that they can give to the player of their choice. So Lamelo takes a wild one legged, 40 foot, three point shot. Eric Spolster's like, time out. I want to take. I want to take Con canyipple to mid court and give him a polygraph. Did you like that shot, Con? Like, you can really sew in some dissension and, you know, I just, I think it could really raise the stakes. It'd be an interesting thing.

[Justin Ferrier]

Well, I think Chauncey Billups is going to pilot that idea for us whether he wants to or not. So we'll see. All right, last topic on the board. New co host. Oh, wow. Okay. Rob, I think you're starting this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I mean, I think I have to win this bidding.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I'm gonna take.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm gonna do. I'm gonna say I can do it in three clues.

[Justin Ferrier]

Okay.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Name that take, Rob.

[Justin Ferrier]

I'm all three. I'm gonna win. No, you've given away the game here because this is an easy one. The clues are too revealing. Clue number one. Topic is new co host pronunciation.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Justin Ferrier]

All right, Clue number two. Persnickety ass motherfuckers.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right, and what's clue number three?

[Justin Ferrier]

Foreign names, names, names, Rob. Name that take.

[J. Kyle Mann]

You could go a lot of directions for snickety.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, so I do correct Justin's pronunciation with some regularity on this podcast because I like, like, you know, I would think the fine folks at NBC believe that you should know the players you're talking about and pronounce their names correctly. It's a. It's a bold take on my part. I think Justin's take is that you, Kyle, as our new co host, will be able to one up me and put me in my place correcting when I botch the pronunciation on something.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I don't know how to feel about this. That you think that that's.

[Justin Ferrier]

No, that's. Rob's not correct anyway, so that's fine. But it is really more of a warning to Kyle. The take is don't ever mispronounce a player's name or Rob will murder you with shame and bury your body where your loved ones can't find it.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I was going to say I've been accused of being like an epic nuclear douche for the way I say Luca Doncic. So I'm. I'm very guilty. I thought that's where you were going with it. I've been known to be made fun of for. For my pronouncing things that need not be labored over pronunciation wise. But. So I'm with you, Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's just.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I try to try to do right. I just try to.

[Justin Ferrier]

Dotenstein wars have been waged over many years and we finally come out in a detente over that.

[Rob Mahoney]

I did not correct you a single time. I just kept insisting soft correcting by pronouncing it Hartenstein, which is.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, that's really cool.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's his name. I'm not like, I don't know what you. I'm not trying to murder you out here.

[Justin Ferrier]

No. The actual take here is, Kyle, we're glad to have you. We can't wait to do a full season of podcast.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Don't be sentimental.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why not? That's what we do on this show.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, for sure. That's what you're known for. Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

As you can tell by the first take, we'll end up at a day.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

We are genuinely, though, thrilled to have you.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I'm.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm very excited about this season. I'm very excited about this season with Kyle. Great things ahead for group chat.

[Justin Ferrier]

Just 100% agree. And remember, in terms of scheduling, we'll be back Sunday night. Ish. Early, early, early Monday morning and also on Wednesdays. So with that, we'll wrap it there. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Big Woz for being with us for so many years. Thank you, the listener. We'll talk to you next time.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sam.