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Thibs Gone?! Knicks Turmoil, Finals Preview, the 'Inside the NBA' Farewell at Turner | Real Ones
02:15:11
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- [00:00]
Logan Murdoch
What's good? Logan Murdoch here with Real Ones. We have a really action packed episode for you today. A lot of things going on, Tibbs getting fired, NBA Finals preview. And then we have me and Howard Beck are talking to Joel Anderson and Brian Curtis about inside the NBA, all that next on Real Ones. Hey, Cliff, play the theme music. What's poppin? Real Ones. Logan Murdoch here, Howard Beck over there. We already recorded a pod and we were ready to go. Howard was leaving Sacramento on his way to the Bay Area and not see me and then go to Oklahoma City from SFO and he was already packed. And then we get the text of doom, not only for the person that we're about to talk to, but for us in general because we had to record a topper for this podcast. And the reason why we recorded a topper for this podcast because Tom Thibodeau has gotten fired by the New York Knicks.
- [01:00]
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- [01:53]
Logan Murdoch
Okay, so I'll just go through my reactions. We just go with your reaction really quickly, Beck. So my first reaction was this was I'm kind of surprised based on the run that the Knicks had. I was shocked because of the runs that the Knicks had that he got fired so soon. But I wasn't necessarily surprised by it. What are you thinking about this? Was this something in the works, you think? And we all thought that maybe a run could save him. Why didn't the run, the ether conference finals run save Tom Thibodeau's job?
- [02:23]
Howard Beck
Ultimately, yeah, I mean, look, you set the table already, Logan. So just to make this very, very clear to the listeners, it is now 12:04 Pacific Time on Tuesday. This happened within the last like seven or eight minutes. So I've not made a single phone call and we are going on the fly here. I am both surprised and not surprised at all. Obviously. I covered the Knicks for nine years. I've been in New York for 21 years. I am not, I'm never surprised at anything the Knicks do, even if it seems irrational. And this one is not clear cut. To be clear, there's a case, as I'm sure we will hear, being made for firing Tom Thibodeau through the usual sources as the day unfolds. But listen, let's just back up. The Knicks were a laughingstock. The Knicks were a disaster for basically 20 years with a few outlier seasons mixed in. The five year run that Tom Thibodeau just had is the best run they've had since the 90s. It's not even close. They were just in their first conference finals since 25 years ago, so. And they've had back to back 50 win seasons for the first time since the 90s. There's absolutely no question whatsoever that everything that Knicks are now respectable, competent, competitive, feared at times, even whatever they have become, it is due to a lot of different factors, including what Tom Thibodeau has done to instill this team with a certain kind of toughness. And it helps to go get Jalen Brunson, it helps to go get Josh Hart and everyone else that has been part of this era. But firing Thibodeau now we can get into like the granular stuff about this playoff run, but it does strike me the part of it that's surprising is this is as good as the Knicks have been in a very long time. And his reward for it is to get shown the door after a conference finals loss that frankly shouldn't have been that shocking. Like, we knew that the Pacers were capable of this. We knew that this series could go either way. I picked Nixon 7. But I think as you, you and I had talked about on the side, like I was really tempted to say Pacers in six like this. Like, no, no outcome in six or seven games with either of them emerging was going to be surprising. They're a really good team, they're very expensive team and yes, they made a lot of moves that cost them assets and money and everything else to get towns and bridges last summer. But if you thought that they were somehow like a lock for the finals or a championship, that would be insane. So I don't know, like they haven't fallen short of anything here. They have achieved exactly what they should have achieved this season. No more, no Less. And I don't know how that's the basis for firing tips.
- [05:08]
Logan Murdoch
That's what me and Cliff were talking about pre pod or pre. Pre segment is just the fact that it. This is, this reeks of another shoe to drop. Leon Rose obviously made the call on this that's been reported in the last few minutes. This reeks of something that is similar to maybe Mike Malone, right, where there might have been some infighting, maybe been some indecision. Because again, like the biggest thing that you want in the NBA, especially after you do better than expectations. I mean, we were talking about the Knicks not even being as good as last year's team throughout the season. Right. It was kind of a punchline that they were going to lose to the Detroit Pistons. But you have this roster, veteran team roster, you have a, A coach that seems to have a culture that fits perfectly with New York in the style of play that New York likes from its teams. This seems like, and I'm speculating here, seems like some, it could be some infighting in the background for this to happen at this juncture of a season. Because, I mean, even when you, when Jalen Brunson was asked about it after they, after they, they were eliminated, it was like, is that even a question to ask? And a lot of people were like, I mean, yeah, Brunson's right. Why would you ask him a question like that? And now you see why. I don't know if this is a good or bad move because we, if you, you have to see who they pick up, who the Knicks picks up. But it definitely messes with their continuity. It seems like a coach that the locker room seemed to like.
- [06:46]
Howard Beck
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, and this is one of the reasons why I thought, whatever the criticisms of Tibbs were, right, not developing the bench enough, running his starters into the ground rotation, decisions in the playoffs itself, anything that you, and especially that Knicks fans pointed to. And look, there's. There's definitely been a large segment of Knicks fans who have been gunning for Tibbs dismissal for a while. Right. Knicks fans weren't always happy with him despite the success that they've had the last five years. And the thing that I thought would maybe save Tibs if the front office or ownership were thinking along the same lines is, well, he seems really aligned with Jalen Brunson. Like, they're. I feel like they're kind of wired the same. And I don't want to speculate on whether Jaylen Brunson was consulted on this because we just Never know. Every. Every organization operates differently, every store operates differently. I would just say, as I would always say in these situations, it's insane if you didn't consult your franchise star before dismissing the coach. But I thought those two were pretty tied together and I thought for all kinds of reasons, like he would continue. I did not. Like I say, I'm a little surprised. The Leon Rose statement just came out. Team president of the Knicks, who you know, Leon came in five years ago himself in the middle of. COVID was hired without any experience himself. Right. Coming from CAA as an agent took over a lot of skepticism, including from me. And he's built it out pretty well. And Tibbs was his hire. So this is the first coach that he's hired and first coach he's now fired. No, not to be overlooked in all this too is Tibbs was of course, a CAA client himself. Leon says, quote, our organization is singularly focused on winning a championship for our fans. This pursuit led us to the difficult decision to inform Tom Thibodeau that, that we've decided to move in another direction. We can't thank Tom enough for pouring his heart and soul in each and every day of being the New York Knicks head coach. He led us not only with class and professionalism for the past five seasons, but also to tremendous success on the court with four playoff births and four playoff series victories. Ultimately, we made the decision we feel is best for our organization moving forward. Tom will always be part of our Knicks family and we truly wish him nothing but the best in the future. So nothing real revealing there.
- [08:59]
Logan Murdoch
Very vague statement, Very Nixian statement.
- [09:01]
Howard Beck
Well, but very. But that's like all teams issue ambiguous statements like this that are always like, thank you for your service, Bye bye. We're not going to hear anything more than that either, officially, because Leon Rose doesn't do media, doesn't do press conferences with independent media. He barely even talks to MSG networks. So I don't expect that we're going to hear anything officially more to. To elaborate on this or to explain how, you know, what. What the basis for it was. It'll all have to be unnamed sources, but my guess is there were concerns with the rotation and the lack of development of the bench and then the on the fly suddenly promotion of that bench in tight games against the Pacers where suddenly they desperately needed them. And I do think there were some, as there are with every coach in front office. Logan, there were definitely some disagreements along the way over the last five years. There were guys that the front office brought in that I, you know, especially some of the younger players that Tibbs did not invest as much time in because he was playing Alec Burks or Alfred Payton. Like he, he's definitely a coach who, who wants his, you know, he loves his vets and he wants to win every game and he wants to have the best record possible, even if it's the expense of guys playing big minutes and young guys not getting reps. Like that is the way he's wired. But you know that when you hire him.
- [10:19]
Logan Murdoch
I was going to say you knew the job was dangerous when you took it, but the question that I would have is, okay, say you're the Knicks front office and you hire Tibbs. I mean because of the CAA connection, but also because Tibbs1 is a damn good coach. And also he seems like the guy that can teach winning habits. Now, by the way, now that may not be, you know, that may not bring the bench along, that may not bring make everybody you feel good about the rotations of the minutes that are being allocated. But he seems to be like one of those. Maybe this is what he is for this team, a bridge to something better, right? I mean, in a similar to. We've seen that from Mark Jackson, we've seen that from other coaches who can get a team to a point. Maybe that is probably what we're seeing here. Howard, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, right, Trying to figure out what he did. Maybe that is what it is that Leon Rose was like, okay, he's gotten us to this point, but there are glaring things that we just don't agree with that we need to get somebody in here that we do agree with in terms of the rotations and maybe having a transcendent view. Because at this point, Tibbs is who he is as an older coach. He is kind of in his ways and he is kind of that type of guy that is going to play guys 47 minutes a game and win every game. And he builds good habits within a team, but there's always a ceiling to that. And also like this team isn't as good as it was. It might not look the same next year and it might need a different coach to oversee all of that.
- [11:53]
Howard Beck
If there's an analogy to some of the past changes we've seen, even like, you know, Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr, like Mark Jackson got the warriors to become a 50 win team mostly on the basis of defense. And then Kerr came in with his staff and unlocked the offense with, with just more innovation and more Dynamism, more movement. And it's funny because Tibbs is considered a defensive first or a defense first coach. But when they swapped out some of the pieces from last season to this season, they became more of an offense first team where they were like, you know, top five, top ten wherever they were in offensive efficiency, but they were more middle of the pack defensively and all that said, they still lacked a certain offensive dominism or dynamism like they were Jalen Brunson's pretty ball dominant. Is that Jalen Brunson and just catering to him or is that Tibbs and the way he's designing things offensively? Like there's a, there's a lot of chicken and egg stuff in these things. And I do think, especially when they went out and got Mikhail Bridges and traded like every last draft pick they had to get him. Bridges can do the thing, can do things with the ball in his hands. He can initiate the offense some. Like we saw that in Phoenix, we saw it in Brooklyn, and it seemed to me like they kind of pigeonholed him earlier in the season. So I do think there's a case potentially to be made that a different coach with a different offensive style or mindset or maybe a little bit more innovative might get more out of the current group if you keep this group together. But that's not guaranteed. And I will just say again, like, I'm not here to defend the decision or to defend Tibbs. We're working through this in real time. I will just say, for an organization that has suffered greatly over the last 20 plus years from a lack of continuity and a lack of, of a consistent team culture, a lack of a clear direction, and has suffered from just volatility. Right. For the last 25 years, the Knicks and the Kings of all franchises. I'm sorry to both franchises for putting you in the same sentence, but they were neck and neck for turnover in the coach's seat and the front office. I believe they were the two that, that led the league. I haven't done the math recently. That kind of instability undermines everything else you're trying to accomplish. This is the longest stretch the Knicks have had with the same front office. That's that like that's a mark in their favor. And that they went five years with Tibbs outlasting every other coach of the last 25 years, I think shows that the Knicks perhaps have, have learned some lessons there. But I'm also not convinced that this was the right move at the right time. Even if you want to Say, like, hey, five years is a good run. I don't. I just don't know. And listen, again, we're doing this in real time. It just happened. We will find out more along the way. Were there issues in the locker room? Were there just differences between tibs in the front office? Was it about not developing the bench? Was it about not having more of a dynamic, diverse offensive approach? Maybe it's a little of everything. I just also don't know that bringing in a new coach is going to suddenly turn them into championship contenders without other roster moves. I don't know who's out there, who's doing that.
- [14:57]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. And also, like, I think the other thing to that point that should be said here is like, and this new. We always talk about this apron era. I always bring this up now, right? It feels like if you have a good, competent team, a roll of the dice can get. You get. If you're the Knicks, you can get to the conference finals. You can get two games away from the NBA Finals if, if, if, if. So one or two games away. I think continuity might be the key to all of this, right? At least from. If you're not going to have it from the players and the roster day to day, at least have it from the coaching staff. But what I want to do is ask this question, right? Reference Mike Malone in the beginning. And I know, you know, we've given you shit about your Michael Malone takes over the last couple of months, but I want to use your argument here. And I don't know how much reporting we're going to get to. Again, we're just spitballing. But if they made you. You always made a distinction. If they had a decision that they were going to make and that they had to. Maybe they made this decision in April and Thibodeau just made, you know, just skyrocketed expectations because. Or eclipsed expectations because they got to the conference finals. If they had already made that decision and they already knew what they were going to do, is that good or bad for this? Because, say what you want about Leon Rose, he has been a model for continuity through. Or continuity, as some people would say over the last five years. Doesn't he earn the benefit of the doubt based on what he's built with this team and this organizationally kind of having that shift?
- [16:39]
Howard Beck
I would have thought that whatever your concerns were with Tibbs, that he had built up enough goodwill over the course of the last five years that you work through whatever the other differences are. Right. Again, this is where the Lack of reporting and we're doing, you know, this on the fly makes it hard, but like, maybe there were just things he was gonna, not gonna budge on, you know, and there are times in this league where a team reaches its limits with a certain coach and you just need a different approach, a different voice. But everything that they are right now, again, you know, tough and resilient and grinders and everything, that's all, that's all manifestation of the way that Tibbs approaches the game. So it got them here. Is it possible that there was a limit on it? I know that that's a philosophy that's out there or belief out there. I don't know. I don't know. I do know this, though. They had, you know, the, the proverbial punchers chance to make the Finals. They were not favored to make the Finals. No one expected them to make the Finals. Maybe the most optimistic Knicks fans did. And I think certainly when this playoff run began and they knock out the Celtics, the defending champs, suddenly you're thinking everything is possible. But the Pacers knocked out the Cavaliers and they had the best record in the East.
- [18:00]
Logan Murdoch
Well, that's what I'm saying about continuity. Right. Like, if you have that and you continue to have that, you just, There was a really good case to just run this back in whatever context that was in terms of, of the front office. Based on what you've seen. Right. The Eastern Conference is wide open, especially after that Tatum injury. Right.
- [18:17]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [18:17]
Logan Murdoch
We don't know what Cliff Sixers are going to do. Probably worse than expectations. I didn't have to do that, but that was fortuitous. Yeah, yeah, that was, that was, that was, that, that was an asshole. But no, like, you don't know what the Heat are going to be. They're probably not going to be as good as we, you know, imagine. Right. Like, it's just wide open. A lot of teams can do stuff. And the Knicks were right there with the Pacers at the top of the Eastern Conference next year. They probably still are, depending on if they get this coaching hire. Right. Because I do think there's an opportunity to get somebody that you really like or get somebody that you feel can get the most more out of Mikhail Bridges or actually get him the ball and make him be that Scotty Pippen like, player that we all know that he can be. So I, I, I'm kind of in the middle on this. Like, I see both sides. I'm not really mad at this firing, to be honest with you.
- [19:08]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [19:09]
Logan Murdoch
Now that I'm Talking through it like, it's not like, I don't want to make it like something where it's like, this is terrible because we. I feel like we tend to do that with within the shock of a coach firing. Like, this shouldn't have happened. And I know there are coach firings that deserve that because we're in the middle so much. I don't think that this necessarily. I'm not mad at this. This doesn't deserve the oh, pitchforks and this is bullshit type of reaction.
- [19:31]
Howard Beck
Listen, I would love to come on here and have a definitive hot take that it was absolutely the right thing to do or absolutely the wrong thing to do. It really is a gray area on this one. There's like, five years by today's NBA standards is a pretty long run. And there's a lot in Tibbs favor. We've gone over it. There's a lot to critique. We've gone over a lot of that. The question ultimately becomes, as our friend Bobby Marks always goes to immediately. And I think he's already tweeted about this today. Just the idea, like, okay, so what's the alternative? Who are you getting that's better? Who's the coach who's coming in and unlocking this group and getting them to the championship? If you decided that Tibbs was not the guy to get you there and that you'd reach your limits with him, and maybe that's true. All right, who is it? Because I don't see any obvious candidates out there. And before everybody starts saying, Michael Malone, I love Malone and he did an incredible job in Denver and they won a championship, but they're wired a lot the same way. And normally when you, you know, this is how it goes in sports in every sport, right? If you fire the hard ass old school coach, you bring in the player friendly coach. If you're firing the player friendly coach, you bring in the hard ass old school coach. Michael Malone is much closer to the Tibbs model than not. And like, Tibbs also has a habit of, like, leaning heavily on his veterans. You know, that was the problem with between him and Calvin Booth. Right. Well, why they fired them both. Like, couldn't decide who they were going to play or, you know, Booth wanted to play the young guys. Malone wasn't convinced of their worthiness. So I don't think. I don't think that's the likely answer. I don't know who the answer is. I don't. Again, if you think that Tibbs is not the right coach for them or is not going to get them to the finals or to the championship. Fine. You can make the case for it. Who's the better alternative? And I don't know that anybody has that answer. And the Knicks have to now find that answer.
- [21:22]
Logan Murdoch
What's the lasting memory of what the Tibbs era represents, huh?
- [21:29]
Howard Beck
You know what's funny? Like, you could point to a couple different things and, and I think like, the best version of this would be holy. They. They won games one and two in Boston and then finished off the defending champs. Like, that's just incredible. And that's the high highs. But the game I'm going to remember most probably like what's, what's like, the epitome like encompasses all of it in one single game. It's game seven against the Pacers last year, right, where the Pacers beat them on their home floor. And at that time, it was about as far. It was as deep as into the postseason as the Knicks had been in forever. And they not only lost game seven at home, they lost it with player after player after player in that series going down or some that didn't even make it to that series. Like, if that's not the Tibbs era in a nutshell, I don't know what is. Good, bad and otherwise.
- [22:21]
Logan Murdoch
It was entertaining, man. I'm, I'm, I think I'm sad for the segment of the New York population that really resonated with a Tibs team, right? Because like, it is hard nose. You see that scowl on the sidelines and that's fucking New York. Hell of a scout, right?
- [22:35]
Howard Beck
That's, that's a Hall of Fame scowl.
- [22:37]
Logan Murdoch
I, I remember just like when the Knicks used to just come through to the east coast or to come through the west coast when I would see them and yeah, they would like have, you know, every time the Knicks come, they're one of those teams like you know, when the Lakers or when I guess for some people the Warriors. But when those teams, when it's event, when they. An event, when they come through and there wasn't a coach that sent felt like that really exemplified what they were. I mean, you covered like Ben Gundy and stuff like that, but like when fibs came, it felt like that Knicks aura, lack of a better term. Sorry, I'm doing a Gen Z story that's coming up. No, their aura, the Riz. It was back, baby. You know.
- [23:17]
Howard Beck
Have you ever aura farms, Logan?
- [23:20]
Logan Murdoch
I have a few times.
- [23:21]
Howard Beck
You farmed for an aura.
- [23:22]
Logan Murdoch
I mean, everybody, everybody, everybody tends to do that every once in a While.
- [23:25]
Howard Beck
I had no idea what that was until Tyrese Halliburton dropped it a couple weeks ago, I mentioned in a resilience pod like this, this is how, you know I'm old and I'm cooked, but.
- [23:33]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I'm still farmed a couple of times, you know, I've done it.
- [23:37]
Howard Beck
Have I. Have I unknowingly farmed an aura?
- [23:40]
Logan Murdoch
You definitely have. You definitely have. I can't say when, but you definitely have done that. As one of the youngest members of the ringer NBA team, I definitely know some Gen Z terminology, even though I'm a millennial, but, like, you know, or a farm in the riz. You know what I mean?
- [23:57]
Howard Beck
You got to keep me up to date on this stuff, so I'm not falling behind.
- [24:00]
Logan Murdoch
It's okay. Honestly, bro, like, you don't want to be the old dude in the club, right? Cliff, Cliff, tell, tell. How are you don't know old dude in the club? That's not fun. Don't do it. I'm starting to get there, but you're not.
- [24:12]
Howard Beck
You got. You got to.
- [24:13]
Logan Murdoch
I'm starting to get there, bro. I don't want to. You know what I mean? I don't want to do all that. But, like, no, I think that ultimately, like, when. When you saw the Knicks during the. I think that's the thing I will remember again. I'm damn near 3,000 miles away, but that's what I will remember is, like, he brought the Knicks aura back.
- [24:31]
Howard Beck
He embodied it.
- [24:32]
Logan Murdoch
He embodied it. He liked it. And I think that that's important for whoever the next coach is, right? You. Whether you're player friendly or what. You got to embody what New York stands for and what all the boroughs stand for, and. And it's hard nose fucking basketball. And that's what they love, right? Like. Like, even though they lost game seven, last year was a bit of a win because, like, yo, man, we put bodies on the ground, we gave a fuck, right? Like, and I. That's what I. What I remember.
- [24:57]
Howard Beck
Part of what was so respectable about it was like, they, like, they. They went down fighting. Brunson goes down in that game. Anunoby had been out and tried to play. Like, made this 30 second cameo appearance. Like, they didn't have Julius Randle. Like, they just. They were. But they still. Dudes fought their butt. But they still fought their butts off. And that's what New York loved about them. And that was what. That's what everybody did. Like, especially last season. I thought, like, a lot of NBA fans, they didn't have to be New York fans. They. There was a. There was a magnetism, a charisma to that team because of how hard they fought, how hard they played. Tibbs embodies that. Tibbs instilled that. Tibbs deserves credit for that, and the next coach will benefit from that, whoever that person will be. But good luck with this roster winning a championship, because there are some notable flaws.
- [25:48]
Logan Murdoch
Here's the thing, though, that I will say about that, though, really quickly, though. Like, I don't even know what it takes to win a title in this new era. I mean, like, this playoffs has just fucked it all up, right? Like, the Celtics are supposed to be playing the Oklahoma City Thunder right now because we said it all damn year, right? And we. Or the Cavaliers, we said it all damn year, and then they got knocked out in the playoffs. And I think you're going to start seeing more and more of that as teams maybe regress in talent level. But they. The parody is there. So, like, I don't. They. They. If you're going to ask me right now if Tiz was the coach, if the Knicks are a title contender next year, I'd probably say yes. In this new era that we're in right now.
- [26:28]
Howard Beck
Yeah, no, I. I think that's fair. I didn't mean to be that dismissive of it, like, they. Like, they do have a shot. Anybody in the east has a shot. I mean, I don't know if anybody has a shot to beat the Thunder anytime soon, but know, famous last words.
- [26:37]
Logan Murdoch
You think the Hornets have a shot to get out of these next year?
- [26:41]
Howard Beck
No, no, listen. The off season will begin in a few weeks, and a whole bunch of crazy stuff's probably going to happen because it always does, and we're expecting a pretty bonkers summer here. But as things stand right now, today, if you were to try to project forward without knowing what moves are being made, you'd still say Cavs, Knicks, Pacers, maybe. Maybe the Celtics if they figure out a way to patch it up without Tatum for a season. Maybe the Bucks if they keep Giannis. Maybe the Sixers if everybody stays healthy. Stop laughing, Logan. That's not nice to Cliff. Like, there's the Knicks. The Knicks are in a group that could come out of the east, right? There's a handful of teams without knowing anything that's going to happen in the rest of June, July, August.
- [27:28]
Logan Murdoch
For Cliff's sake, I hope the Sixers do better because he's going to talk so much shit year, mostly to you. Mostly to you. We all on. Relax. We all on the Sixers.
- [27:38]
Howard Beck
I'm the one who keeps saying. I'm the glass half full guy. I keep saying, like, listen, Joel Embiid could stay healthy.
- [27:44]
Logan Murdoch
You know who sits on the signals the most? The second most, Cliff. He's a Philadelphian. That's what.
- [27:51]
Howard Beck
Yeah, that's like. That's. But that's like calling out your own crazy uncle. Nobody else is allowed to.
- [27:55]
Logan Murdoch
No, that's fine. That's fair. That's a fair point. Okay. We're getting a little loopy. I know the Knicks are going to start chase. It's going to be a fast, and they're going to have a new coach while they're doing it. It's going to be a fascinating summer. Also, another thing like, that I'm curious about. Like, it's how much Brunson is gonna have say in who his coach is. Right? Like, and how much.
- [28:13]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [28:14]
Logan Murdoch
Because he didn't have it. He. He came into the Thibodeau aura, if you wanna. You want to get Gen Z with it. He came into. Into his way of doing things. And now, like, it's a fresh start. Right. Because, you know, they're gonna go star chasing, right? They're probably gonna be like, hey, Milwaukee, what you doing, bro? How you doing? You wanna. You want to.
- [28:33]
Howard Beck
How you doing?
- [28:34]
Logan Murdoch
How you. How you. How you doing? How you doing? That's what they're going to say. That's what. That's actually Leon Rose's accent behind closed doors. Yeah. You didn't even know. It's just talk. But they're going to make that. They're going to probably make that call. They're probably going to try to just get the roster better. And, you know, stars like being in control of shit. And maybe they pick a coach, even though Giannis's track record or whoever's track record isn't great at picking coaches. They like the power of it.
- [29:00]
Howard Beck
Yeah. And listen, they're gonna. They're gonna. As they always do, and as any responsible organization would. You're gonna check into everything. Right? So if there's a Yanis deal to be made, I don't think there is one for them, but they'll check into it. They'll look into anybody and everybody who's available. But it's tough. Their payroll makes it tough. Their lack of draft picks that they've already traded makes it difficult. The second apron and all that makes it difficult. But I do think they have more work to do other than just finding a new coach like they There are some roster things to do and I'm guessing it's probably not going to be of the blockbuster variety. It's going to be more around the edges for sure.
- [29:37]
Logan Murdoch
That's Howard Beck, ladies and gentlemen. We are going to talk Finals in the next segment. Oh, guess who's going to be there? Logan and Howard. This is the Logan and Howard episode. All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk some Finals talk. The Finals are here at last, folks. It all comes down to this. Don't miss your chance to bet on all the legendary moments with FanDuel, America's number one sports book. FanDuel is the best place to find all your favorite player props. And now you can make the smarter play with new performance trends. Want to check out a player's consistency during the playoffs? Or maybe they've been flirting with a potential triple double? Get the latest stats right inside the app and see who's heating up. And after the tip off, that's when things get real interesting. You can combine live prop bets into a same game parlay for a chance to win big. Let's take a look at the slate. There's only one game on the docket and that is Game one between OKC and Indiana. I think I'm going to take the thing. I'm going to take the under on Tyrese Halliburton on points, rebounds and assists. And then I think I'm going to take the over on points for Oklahoma City. If you don't already have FanDuel, it's not too late to get in on the action. You'll just get started with 200 bonus bets if your first $5 bet wins. So just visit fanduel.com ringermba make every moment more with FanDuel Official sports betting partner of the NBA must be 21 years and older and present in select states or 18 and older and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. First online real money wager only $5 first deposit bonus issued is non withdrawable bonus bets which expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms of sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Amazon Business.
- [31:10]
Howard Beck
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Logan Murdoch
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Logan Murdoch
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Howard Beck
Go to amazonbusiness.com for support.
- [31:34]
Joel Anderson
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime.
- [31:37]
Brian Curtis
Ever finish a movie and the next.
- [31:38]
Joel Anderson
Thing you know, you're totally obsessed? Like, I'm talking about ordering a book.
- [31:42]
Brian Curtis
About 70s film lighting or buying the soundtrack on vinyl.
- [31:45]
Howard Beck
Kind of obsessed.
- [31:46]
Joel Anderson
Whatever it is, prime helps you get.
- [31:49]
Brian Curtis
More out of whatever passions you're into or getting into. Head to Amazon.com prime and follow your obsession wherever it goes.
- [31:58]
State Farm
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- [32:32]
Logan Murdoch
Where the hell is Raja? Where's he at?
- [32:33]
Howard Beck
I thought you had him.
- [32:35]
Logan Murdoch
I had him. I thought Cliff had him. Cliff, didn't you have him?
- [32:37]
Howard Beck
Cliff, who misplaced Raja?
- [32:39]
Logan Murdoch
Where do you. Where'd he go? Where's he at? Hey, man, Raja's on a tournament. He's on an AU20 run right now for future. I'll tie Bell, you know, so let him do it. Let him get.
- [32:49]
Howard Beck
Let him get it. What. What's those? The little apple things that you can put to track stuff. We need to put one of those on Raja.
- [32:55]
Logan Murdoch
That doesn't work. It doesn't. That doesn't even work. No, that. No, no.
- [32:59]
Howard Beck
Find my iPhone. Can I put Raja?
- [33:02]
Logan Murdoch
Find my Raja.
- [33:04]
Howard Beck
We need a new app. Somebody get on that.
- [33:06]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, so let him go out there.
- [33:08]
Joel Anderson
Let him cook with, you know, I.
- [33:09]
Logan Murdoch
Mean, the future owl. Future temple owl.
- [33:11]
Joel Anderson
Might as well, you know.
- [33:12]
Logan Murdoch
Roger doing his thing, man. Doing a dad thing. Doing a dad thing, man. Shout out to Roger. Shout out to Neff Ty Bell. Hopefully all that hard work gets him to Temple. Or probably, you know, I don't want to. Maybe somewhere better. Maybe like Penn or something, you know.
- [33:25]
Howard Beck
Or UC Davis, perhaps.
- [33:27]
Logan Murdoch
Or UC Davis. Who's the. Who's the GM at UC Davis? It's not a former king, is it? I don't know if they have a shot. If it's not a former king. That.
- [33:36]
Howard Beck
That's the whole thing now. But Shaq signed up with Sac State, our arch rival. So like I, I don't even know how to top that.
- [33:42]
Logan Murdoch
I don't even know if Shaq knows that he did that. But oh man, let's talk turkey. Let's talk the NBA Finals. We, we have the finals matchup set. It is the Indiana Pacers versus the Oklahoma City Thunder. We definitely thought the Pacers are going to get to the Finals in the beginning of the season, right? Howard? We just, we do that. That was a shoe in. We. I know I picked them somewhere somehow. It's just this is, this is me and you talked about this pre pod and yesterday in our phone call and our weekly chat just about what this Finals means for the NBA, right? And what does this say? Changing of the guard moment? Is this a sliding doors moment? And just try to figure out and decipher what this means for the, for the league. And you have one team that has been a beneficiary of the new cap rules in the Indiana Pacers. And then you have the Oklahoma City Thunder who are also just been a beneficiary of a lot of different things coming together with the draft picks and you know, an MVP type player. I, I don't want to get to the question of where do you see these series going? Because I think that's, I think people pretty much have already talked about that at length and we've talked about that on the, on the entrance survey that you guys can check out on the ringer.com but I guess the question is what does this mean for where the league is going? Howard, where are we at right now? What does this matchup say about the current NBA?
- [35:14]
Howard Beck
It's funny because I swear I'm not trying to be the contrarian here, Logan. I know all of the buzz from the moment the Pacers clinch was ah, too small market teams. What's the, what are the ratings going to look like? You know, all of the usual stupid hand wringing. And I get it. Bigger markets bring in automatic audiences and these are not what we think of as flashy marquee teams for the NBA. But one, these are both really entertaining, really talented teams that casual fans should have been watching. And if they weren't aware of how good these teams were, maybe shame on us. Everybody knew how good Oklahoma was, right? Like the 68 win speaks for itself, but also like they've been the favorites to make the finals or win the championship since last summer. The Pacers we didn't see coming and sometimes you can't. But I think the biggest takeaway here should not be oh My God, two small market teams. How will the Finals survive? How will the ratings? Who cares about ratings? Two great teams. Two small markets is actually a strength. I swear this is not just me being contrarian. Two small markets in the Finals is showing how healthy the NBA is right now. And it's very simple. Everything they've done over the last 15 years of new collective bargaining agreements and aprons and second aprons and all the other crap that you know, we have to like try to explain and that GMs have to deal with has created this parody. And it's not just that we're going to have a seventh champion in seven years. It's not just that Oklahoma or Indiana, when one of them wins, it will be the first time for their franchise. Not counting obviously Oklahoma's previous Seattle existence. It's that these are two of the smallest markets. And this comes in the wake of Denver winning a couple of years ago. They're more of mid sized market. Milwaukee winning a few years ago. They are one of the smaller markets. This is a sign of a healthy NBA ecosystem where it's not all just LA, NY and like Miami. Again not a big market, but it's a glamour market. The problem for the NBA has been for years is that teams in the colder outposts and the smaller outposts felt like they just didn't have any chance, no hope. And those fans then are like the depressed fan bases. So this everybody should like stop wringing your hands over the ratings. It doesn't matter. TV contracts are locked in for the next 10 years. That's a TV person, TV execs problem. It's not the league's problem if the games are great and if all 30 markets now feel like they have a shot. Because look at the evidence, it's sitting there right in front of us on national TV in June of 2025. That's a great fucking sign for the NBA. It's a great sign. And these are replicatable models. I think there's some, there's some like great scouting and lock and development and other stuff involved in that we can get into it. But the fact that these two markets, these two teams are here is absolutely a healthy sign for the NBA and something that the rest of the NBA should take hard in.
- [38:07]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I think the other thing though, but when you talk about ratings, who cares about that? I think that the, at least from what I think about this series, I think it has less to do with the market size and more to do with the matchup. Right. I think while you Know, we do have two exciting teams. Oklahoma City is far and ahead a better team in this. Right. And I think what the NBA is dealing with right now is the fact that we have already kind of crowned a champion before the series has even started, and rightfully so. And we'll get into the details of why that is and the matchup, but I think that that's a bigger concern than anything else, including market size. Because if you had. I'm. I'm thinking about even the. It's. The NBA is about star power. You're thinking about even 2012 when OKC and Miami play. Those aren't two big markets, but those rated pretty high because of the, the matchups and the star power. But I think with this one, it's, It's. It's tough to wrap your. Your arms around it because we don't. We kind of already crowned a champion. I think that's the tough part, Howard, is that it's. The Pacers are so. So overmatched on paper that it could be, you know, the NBA is fighting against what could be a boring series. Right? Or the. At least the perception that it's a boring series. And Chris Herring, friend of the show, one of our buddies, was pushing against that on Blue Sky. I'm pushing, Pushing all of Beck's buttons right now. He's so excited that I'm just. We're plugging. We're plugging Herring and, And Blue Sky. But no, I think that I, I think that he, he made a good Blue sky and said it. Pushed back on the notion because it's going to be exciting. Well, I think that might only last for a game or two, and I think that that's more of a problem than the market size as a whole, because we need a competitive series, and we haven't had that over the last few years. And I think that's what the tough part is.
- [40:06]
Howard Beck
I think it's fair. I think that, you know, everyone will tune in for Game one and even, like, the casual fans who are, like, checking it out maybe for the first time and like, oh, maybe they've watched a little bit of Tyrese Halliburton, but they're that familiar with the Pacers overall, they're going to want to. There'll be a curiosity, right? And if Game one is suddenly a blowout and you've got everybody predicting either Thunder and five or Thunder and four, most people, that could turn people off quickly. But I think, like, we got to remember that a lot of times a lopsided series does not mean lopsided games, right? Like the Pacers and Celtics a year ago in the conference finals played one of like the, the all time close series and it was a sweep, but it was an incredible series. Regardless of that, this might be like look, I call. I think you and I both in our finals entrance survey on theringer.com I think we both said thunder and five.
- [40:57]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, they asked, they asked who what the Indiana Pacers would need in this series and I said they might need Jesus and. Or Caitlin Clark. Both.
- [41:09]
Howard Beck
Probably both. But I mean it's not because they're, they're like a bad team or lucky to be here. It's just that the Thunder are that stacked. That doesn't mean we won't have close games. Logan. Like let's, let's say this goes the way we think it is and it's thunder in five. It may be thunder and five with a overall point differential of, you know, 1.3 points a game. The math doesn't work there, I don't think. But something along those lines where it's going to be, it's going to just like tip either way. Like you know that Pacers Nick series was a great series. Obviously it went six, but like every game minus one. I think maybe the last two. Most of those games, those first four games of the series were really, really close. Both these teams have a lot of firepower. The Thunder obviously are incredible defensively and we'll see if the Pacers can solve that to continue with the incredible firepower we've seen from them all season. But it doesn't have to be a bad series, even if it's a shorter series, is is my main point there.
- [42:10]
Logan Murdoch
What chance do you, I mean and I'm going with the interest survey here. What chance do you give the Pacers at all in the series? What do they have to do to. Aside from like seven or eight guys, rotation guys on the OKC Thunder just getting injured at this inopportune times. Like how did, how does, how do the Pacers manage it? Because like look, I, I'm talking this out. I, I have no idea of how this can work, right? Because talk about Tyrese Halliburton, great player. OKC's defense is literally tasked to stop a Tyrese Halliburton, right? They have so many winged great wing defenders and the Pacers, they have Pascal Ciaikim and they have Miles Turner and Thomas Bryant, right? None of which are, are Jokic who single handedly, by the way, Jokic's stock is just Somehow getting larger and larger as the playoffs go go further and further, but the Pacers just don't match up well with OKC in any way offensively. And then you go on the other side. You have the MVP and OKC with sga, and then you have a whole bunch of guys like J Dub and guys that can just get their shots, and you have Chad, you have just a very, very deep team. When you look at it on paper, I just don't see it. But, please, like, can we just talk through this and figure out how the Pacers can win a championship?
- [43:31]
Howard Beck
Howard, it's. It's tough, man. Like, this is one of those things where, like, so our editors ask us this question and then, like, tell us in 100 words or less how the Pacers can somehow pull the upset or if they have a chance, like, you could go through. You could talk yourself into circles trying to figure it out. Well, all right, if Neesmith and Nemhard make, like, I don't know, 70% of their threes, you know, if, you know, Miles Turner wins the battle with, you know, Hartenstein and Chet Holmgren, like, it's like, you could. You could try to finesse your way to this. But the bottom line is the Pacers, everything starts and finishes with Tyrese Halliburton, right? Siaka was great. Had a phenomenal series against the Knicks, and has had a really great run with the Pacers so far. Neesmith and Nemhardt have had their major moments. You might get a T.J. mcConnell game. Miles Turner will erupt here and there. But in terms of shot creation, it's really all about Halliburton. And, you know, whether they're throwing Jalen Williams on him or whether it's Shea himself, whether it's Lou Dort, Kayson, Wallace coming off the bench, like, there's so many guys they can throw at Halliburton, and I just. If he gets worn down, if he can't get loose, if he can't keep the offense humming in that funky style of his, then it's tough. Like, he's got to create the open shots.
- [44:57]
Logan Murdoch
Like, OKC can play fast, just as. Just as fast as.
- [45:00]
Howard Beck
And that's the other thing, right?
- [45:02]
Logan Murdoch
As Indiana can. But if you want to slow them down, they can also do that, too. Like, it's just. It's such a catch 22, and they're one of the greatest defensive teams that we've seen in NBA history.
- [45:11]
Howard Beck
The Pacers are, like, so freaking great when they get out and run, right? And that's how like they just drilled the Knicks, right? Like that's where their, their advantage has been is like we're just going to crank this sucker up. And it's not even just, you know, if you talk to the Pacers, they'll tell you like, because they're, they're a lot of, like there's a lot of seven seconds or less there. There's a lot of Mike d' Antoni sons in the DNA, right? We're going to hear a lot of Halliburton, Steve Nash comparisons which I think are legit too. They, it's not just that they fly up the court. It's not just the hit ahead passes. It's not just that Halliburton's willing to give up the ball and be a really selfless point guard, which he is. It's that they're going to keep moving, the players are moving, the ball is moving and they are going to put up shots quickly. And that's to their advantage against certain types of teams, as we saw against the Knicks. But it is not necessarily to their advantage against the Thunder. Like it does keep the Thunders defenders off you so that you don't get into that half court grind where they're just like freaking swarming you and poking the ball away. Now it's a run out the other way. But you play at that pace, the Thunder are going to be more than happy to like go tit for tat on that and, and run it down your throat too. Like they can play at that pace really well and you're having to get back too. So how these two teams decide, like are you crashing the boards for offensive rebounds? Are you getting or are you selling out completely to go back and stop the transition buckets? All that's going to be really interesting. But yeah, I just. Because everything is begins and ends with Halliburton and all their shot creation pretty much starts with him. I do worry for the Pacer's sake that the Thunder just have too many ways to kind of grind him to a halt.
- [46:40]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about just even the defenders that you named, you know, how many defenders that they can throw at Halliburton. One of the things that the paces were able to do in the Knicks series is just straight tire them out right as the series wore on. And you would see that even in, in game one of the Knicks Pacer series where you saw. Raja talked about this in a couple episodes ago, where you saw the defenders not stepping up on Neesmith or Nimhart for three point shots and down the stretch of game one. And how they were just able to get open looks simply because the, the Knicks couldn't get over screens. Like, OKC is not going to have that problem. They have a. They're. They are going to get up on screens, they're going to stick onto their man. There could be a Halliburton game where he scores single digits and points and probably gets like, he might hit the triple single in one of these games. I'm not kidding. I'm not really just trying to have hyperbole. I do think that that's the case. It's really, really tough to play against this team, especially when you only have one. When you only have one really creator and the Pacers only really have that one type of creator. I've just flirted trying to find answers and you know, we're not geniuses here, but like, just the proof is in the pudding on how OKC can deplore players defensively. Who is the per. Who is the person on OKC that probably has the most to gain from this final series? You think?
- [48:15]
Howard Beck
Ooh, most to gain. I mean, like, the easy answer here is just Shay, because, like, how many years has it been since the regular season MVP also won the championship? Like, it doesn't happen that often anymore. And was it.
- [48:30]
Logan Murdoch
Was it. Was it, Was it Steph? Well, no, probably.
- [48:33]
Howard Beck
Probably was it was.
- [48:34]
Logan Murdoch
It's like 14, 15 maybe. Yeah, I don't know. Let me check. I'm gonna check on that one. I'm gonna check on that one. Go ahead.
- [48:41]
Howard Beck
Like, Shay has already gained enough, right? Like, I. It's not like he needs certification validation here. He won the regular season mvp, but there's still, of course, plenty of people out there who think it should have been Jokic. And I do think winning the championship kind of helps certify that. And if you lose in the finals after winning regular season MVP in 68 games, that looks bad. So it's almost like not so much to gain, but, but avoiding the, the, the loss or the. Somehow the, the smudge on, on the record, you know, it would be a major disappointment. I think it's. It's probably Shay. But listen, Sam Presti has done this incredible job of putting this roster together for the last decade plus or so I think everybody has kind of considered him. He's been the consensus, if not the best GM in the league. He is always among the best executives in the league. And there's always this pushback like, oh, what does he won. What does he won? As if that, that's that easy. Like as the GM of a team or team president, the best you can do, make great moves, draft well, win the trades more often than not. And yes, stockpile all the picks that he's done. Everything else. If you don't win the championship, it doesn't mean you were a bad gm. It just means that, hey, there's a lot of other factors in this league, but Sam Presti absolutely is one of the best executives in the league, if not the best, and has been for some time. And I think this validation for him, he doesn't care. And he will say he doesn't care, but I think it's. That's a significant piece of this too. It's one thing to make all the smart moves to constantly be able to cash in and get, you know, three picks here, five picks there, get Shay Gil, just Alexander in the Paul George deal, you know, leverage Westbrook for Chris Paul and then flip Chris Paul and like, like every single time you're like, oh, man, he did it again. And then at the end of it, there's still that, that chorus out there going, boo, boots, you won.
- [50:42]
Logan Murdoch
He's.
- [50:42]
Howard Beck
If he. They're going to win the championship and those people are going to have to finally shut up because he's done an incredible job. With or without the ring.
- [50:50]
Logan Murdoch
It's a little Jerry Westian, right? From Sam Pressy without the ring, right? Like, damn it, he just, he found another diamond in the rough. How the hell did he do that? How did he find that? Or like, more not diamond in the rough, but just more savvy, right? Like, how did he get. How did he convince you to do this again, right? Like, how did he, how did he parlay this? But he's also, you know, it's also like he was, he was. I feel like Sam Presti very much saw into the future here. And it's also like, not even just that, like the. And I know this from being a very tortured former A's fan. Like, when you're in a market that doesn't really want to get into luxury taxes, you have to be even more creative, right? Like if things. And you have to pivot. That's why the apron and this apron era really helps out the small market teams. Because already, because they don't have the money of the New York Knicks or the Clippers or the warriors or the Lakers or the Celtics, they have to pivot if something isn't going right. Right. They have to kind of maneuver in a different way, and it behooves them to do so. And if you're going to be a small market team, you're going to have to have a GM like Sam Presti, right, who was going to be willing and dealing back and forth. And I think that, you know, he's kind of done that. One of the other things that I've just been thinking about in this series is just, it feels like the ghost of 2012 is lingering in OKC, right? It's. I feel like it was one of those things where OKC as an expansion city got something really too fast. And not that they didn't appreciate it, but they have not been able to get to that mountaintop again. And right now I haven't been in OKC in a minute, but I could feel just the sense of urgency from like our guy Tyler Parker or, you know, people that I know in okc. I feel like there is going to be just a just explosion of excitement in OKC for this moment, not just for this title, but for what should have happened during the Durant, Harden and Westbrook era. And that's going to be a great. That's the storyline in me, the journalist in me. That's the thing that I can't wait to see. And I know that means that we're already. I know there's a lot of people in Indiana, but what are you talking about? We haven't even played the series yet. Talk about okc. If they win, it's going to be a sight to behold there for sure.
- [53:16]
Howard Beck
And the thing is, from the moment for everybody who's old enough to remember when the Sonics moved and it was awful for Seattle, but Oklahoma embraced that team and back that team to the hilt from day one, even when they were winning like 23 games. And it's been one of the most passionate fan bases, one of the loudest arenas, one of the most intense. And yeah, they were blessed with Westbrook, Durant, Harden, Ibaka and a young team that, you know, talk about our premature declarations that, you know, back then even we were probably saying like, oh, here we go. Future dynasty is hard. You know, sometimes shit just goes wrong. And that they had the misfortune of putting that team together right before the NBA really started to ratchet down or ratchet up the luxury tax and make it so punitive that the Thunder ownership said we're not paying hard in the max. And so like, we don't need to go go back into all that history. But, like, that team had to be unraveled before they even really got a chance after losing in the, in the 2012 finals. And so that they're back here now with a completely different young group that also looks immensely talented, a potential big three. And we got to say potential, like people are rushing to anoint. Gildas, Alexander, Jalen Williams, Chet Holmgren. This is a new big three. Like guys like Jalen Williams has made an all star team and, and I think made all NBA. Chet's not there yet. He may get there like, let's give us some time. But like these, like, are these three going to be at the same level of Durant, Westbrook, Harden? Like those three guys all want MVPs, you know, obviously separately, but like, like the, the outline of an incredibly talented, awesome and durable team that should be around for years to come is, is there. They got to win the first one first.
- [55:04]
Logan Murdoch
I'm old enough to know that Howard Beck was at the last NBA Finals game in Indiana. Yeah, that was my first part. My first geezer. Ain't the first Finals just like the coolest thing ever? You're just like, what the. Because I remember my first finals in 2018. And it just, the air feels different, right? You have that gold all around and it's just. You could just see that you're in a history book. It's something special, right? Isn't it cold? Just the first Finals. It's, it's just a, it's a mind, man, like a beautiful mind.
- [55:37]
Howard Beck
It, it's. Let me just say it this way to people for, you know, most listeners who probably have. Have not had the privilege to be at a finals, and I've been at many. And the part of it that never gets old and I've been to 20, 20 something finals over the years. When you walk in that building, it feels different. It does not feel like any other game or any other playoff game. And like even like, you know, obviously I covered the Lakers for seven years and so the first finals I cover is 2000 with the Lakers against the Pacers. And you walk into like, obviously it was Staples center first. It was, you know, 2, 3, 2. Whether you're going to Conseco Fieldhouse, as it was called at the time, or at Staples, you walk in and it just does not feel the same. And there's a tension in the air and a buzz and an excitement and you like, feel it in your bones. And you and I, Logan, we're old school journalists. We got no skin in the game. I don't care who wins or loses. There's no emotional investment here whatsoever. And I still feel nervous. I don't even know who I'm nervous for. I think I'm nervous for me because I got to write on deadline.
- [56:35]
Logan Murdoch
You know, it's funny, like, you. You have to step up your game. You. You have a. I remember the first finals that I went to was 2018. It was the warriors versus the Cavaliers where I actually covered it. Like, I didn't. That was. No. That was the first ever finals game I'd ever been to ever, you know, covered and ever actually got credentialed for. And you feel this competitiveness, but you're also like. Like how the players are. But like, you also see some of the, like the best of the best go to the finals to cover it, right? So you're like, you're not only trying to like win your beat, but you're trying to kick like national people's ass. So I remember the, the immense pressure that I felt. Yeah. In my first year, like covering the NBA on a real level. And you get to this point where you're like, I got to kick some ass. But I. Who am. Who am I going to beat here? How am I going to beat this matchup? Right? And I remember my first finals. I wrote a sidebar on Patrick McCall. That was my. That was my game for like, yeah, baby. That was like my game for finals ending story. And I was like, ah, that's how I ended it, you know, and no disrespect that, you know, Tabitha, Carl was a fine player, but it was like, it was a cyber. It was a 400 word sidebar on like, his future and what he does, what he's going to do next. And. And I remember like full circle moment in the 2022 finals. I was working at the ringer and I wrote like this huge, like, piece on the warriors and got like, good stuff. And that was the standard that I remember that like I wanted to get to in 2018. And it felt good. But that's the tension, right? Like, you really want to measure yourself against some of the best of the best, similar to like how the. The NBA players do. And there's that. That's. I think what the tension is that you're speaking of, Howard, is like, also, you know, the most amount of people are probably going to read your shit during the finals and you want to do a great job there and actually want to make an impact. And there's that tension. And then there's also the competitiveness tension that you see from the players and that heightens and then you see the extra security and you see the T shirts and you see the extra art on the ground. Like, it's just this a whole. And then everything is a press conference, right? There's no, like, not a practice, right? There's just like 100 media members. It's just, it's all these things coming together at one time and then you want to see where you are in the pecking order, where the league puts you, right? Like that. It's just so many different things that come together at once. That is just, it's, it makes, it puts a pitter patter in my chest. Howard.
- [59:13]
Howard Beck
It's a different atmosphere. And so when people say, like, you know, you. If you wonder about how the players feel in that atmosphere, and it's like, well, it's the same arenas you've played in all season, right? Especially when you're at home, you know, your routine is the same. Like, what's. Why is, why should this be any different? And it's like if you walk in as a bystander, which is essentially what we are, and you can feel the tension and the pressure in the air and the buzz. Damn straight. Those guys feel it too. And I, yeah, obviously the pressure is really on them. We can talk about how much we want to perform highly is.
- [59:45]
Logan Murdoch
No one gives a fuck about us, bro.
- [59:46]
Howard Beck
Nobody gives a fuck about us. But, but it's, but it is like they feel that anyway, but they partially feel it because there is just a collective electricity that 20,000 people in the building create. That is absolutely. I'm telling you, it is immeasurable. It is. There's no analytics for this. It is fucking different. It just is.
- [60:07]
Logan Murdoch
And yeah, and it's the biggest show in that city too. And it's like wherever you go, it is the only thing people are talking.
- [60:12]
Howard Beck
About, especially when it's in the smaller towns, right? Because what happens in a place like Oklahoma or Indiana, and I've been to the finals in both, like, they'll be like, I think there's like even like decals on the ground around the arena and whatever. So, like, and there's, there's, there's banners and shit up on, like light posts. So, like, if you are downtown in one of these cities, like, if it's in la, it just blends in with everything else going on in la. Like, you don't, you don't necessarily feel like the whole city is alive.
- [60:37]
Logan Murdoch
I think that's the LA spec thing. No, but I think that's the LA specific thing because if you think about, like, the finals were in New York, that would be. Oh, that would be the only thing that New York would be talking about. Right.
- [60:47]
Howard Beck
But, dude, I'm actually. It's funny. You walked three blocks away from the Garden during the conference finals, and it just feels like New York. I was having this conversation with. I think it was when Michael Lee and I walked out late after one of those games and we were like, you get a couple blocks away and suddenly it's just. It's just New York because, like, New York's always got a bunch of shit going on. And this is not some. Like, this is not me doing the big market, small market thing or like coastal elite thing. I'm just saying, like, it is different when it's in the, in the smaller cities because you see it and you feel it everywhere. It's got a much bigger, like, just. Just impact.
- [61:22]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, but.
- [61:23]
Howard Beck
But it's. Yeah, like there's, There's. There's nothing like it. And I can't wait to see what these two cities feel like when I get there. I'm. I'm flying to Oklahoma after we tape.
- [61:32]
Logan Murdoch
I want to. I've been to four. I've been to four NBA Finals and I've had it like, a different experience when you talk about, like, just the vibes in the city. Because the other cities were Cleveland, where. I mean, it's Cleveland that's. They give a fuck about, you know, their Cavs, especially during that run. They. They shut the whole city down. And then it was Toronto, who had never seen an NBA final. So the whole city was only talking about the NBA Finals. That was the only show. And then you. The other ones I went to was Milwaukee, where again, same thing. Never had. Hadn't gotten that. Not never gone to a Finals. They'd been the finals and won the championship, I believe in the 70s with, with Lou Alcinder and. And then Boston, which was. I mean, that shut the city down because anytime the Celtics are Boston in every way. So you could see that. So I had a little bit of a skewed view, but like, yeah, that makes sense. That would make sense. Why that would. The bigger cities would. But I, I just. I'm surprised about New York. I see la, because LA doesn't give a shit about anything. For real.
- [62:40]
Howard Beck
A lot of Laker flags on the cars, though. That was a. I don't know if that's still going to be a thing the next time they do this, but like, Laker flags on, on cars everywhere. That's how you knew you're going down the 405 and those things are just flapping in the wind on every car.
- [62:50]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, for sure. What. Let's talk about the Pacers a little bit. And, you know, that's where we started the question. By the way, I was right. Steph was the last one to win the MVP and also win the title, but he did not win the Finals MVP that year. That was Andre Iguodala. Before that, it seemed like it was like LeBron won a couple where he won the MVP but also won a championship. Yeah, I think those are the ones that stick out. It doesn't happen when, like, Tim Duncan back in the day was Shaq. You covered Shaq. It's 2000 when that happened.
- [63:23]
Howard Beck
Timely trivia note from the NBA comms account, which just hit. Set this up as we were talking. Shay has a chance to become the first player to win a scoring title and championship in the same season since Shaq in 99, 2000. So we've also got that in play.
- [63:38]
Logan Murdoch
Okay, there we go. So what do you think Indiana is feeling as a city? We just talked about, like, how cities are going to be galvanized around this type of event. How do you think that's going to be? And how. What are you excited to see on the ground when you get there?
- [63:58]
Howard Beck
Like, the Pacers. I mean, come on, man. That's freaking Hoosiers. Like, this is basketball country, you said.
- [64:03]
Logan Murdoch
You see the propaganda that they. They just spewed after they got the trophy. This is it. This is basketball territory. You ever. They said?
- [64:10]
Howard Beck
Well, no, no.
- [64:11]
Logan Murdoch
He said there's 29 other teams and then there's 29. What do you say? 29. I don't know the quote, but he said this is where basketball is born.
- [64:18]
Howard Beck
No, no, no. So they've had this as, like, their. Their. Their slogan for decades. Like, literally, I think since I started covering the league where I don't know if it's up on a. If it's in a banner or a sign in consequent field or whatever the hell game. British Field House, they're calling it, but they would say it before every game. Like, it was, like, in 29 other markets, it's basketball, but this is Indiana. It's something like that. So that was what Carlisle. That was what Carlisle said. By the way, the Kings ripped that off at one point. I don't know if they still do that here in Sacramento, where I'm broadcasting from today. But, like, the Kings pulled that at one point, and I'm like, Dude, you can't. You can't do that. Like, Indiana's been. Been, like, they've had that for, like, forever. Plus, it's Hoosiers, it's Indiana. Like, you can't just.
- [65:02]
Logan Murdoch
Very Sacramento thing to do, though, by the way.
- [65:04]
Howard Beck
Yeah, that was cheesy. So, like, dude, that, like, that's. That's. That's legit. That's legit. And, yeah, this is the franchise of. Of Reggie Miller and that 2000 finals team. And, like, there is a, like, a basketball pride there. It's also, like, by the way, when the NBA was struggling, you know, like, before the lockout in 2011, when we had, like, the Great Recession and there was a lot of talk of, like, you know, some teams are losing a ton of money and everything else, there was at least, like, quiet buzz about, like, are the Pacers viable? And, like, they're like, the NBA is never going to leave Indiana. You know, the historic roots are really deep. But there were concerns for a while, like, they're owned by the Simon family, and, like, you know, this is not. This is not the modern, you know, mega billionaire owners. This is not Steve Ballmer. And so there was concerns at one point. So, like, they've come a long way to get back here. And, you know, that should be celebrated. By the way, Kevin Pritchard quietly just, you know, like, we. We. We talk about Sam Presti. How many people, how many fans know Kevin Pritchard's name? Kevin Pritchard's the guy who swaps the bonus for Halliburton, who gets Siakam out of Toronto. And you gotta have the good fortune for teams to be making these guys available, but you have to have the assets to get them. You have to, you know, be the one to. To. To make the negotiation work for both of you so that you're not, you know, you're not giving up too much. They got Nemhard late in the draft. They got Nice Smith out of Boston. And, like, they just keep making these quietly, really solid deals that you wake up one day and go, like, oh, My God, they're 51 team. Oh, my God, they're in the NBA Finals. So props to them, too, because, again, like, this is not. Neither of these teams went and poached somebody else's superstar, right? And I'm not saying that's a bad model. Like, everything's legit.
- [66:59]
Logan Murdoch
I mean, well, okay, see, Post, Yeah.
- [67:02]
Howard Beck
Shay was not a superstar when they got him, and Tyrese was not a superstar when the Pacers got him. Like, these but here's. Yeah, that's recognized something. Recognize something in these guys before they had completely busted out.
- [67:12]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. And, like, I mean, that should be credited. I mean, you're in Sacramento now. Jesus. I just keep thinking about the Kings, just how bad of a deal that was.
- [67:20]
Howard Beck
Even in fans here, man.
- [67:22]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, my goodness. I mean, even in a moment, that was a terrible trade. And I know that people were like, oh, man, they got some. Like, there's some bonuses getting back. People in Sacramento were trying to convince themselves, like, this was a good trade, but everybody knew, like, Halliburton was special in the moment, right. And like, in. In the Clippers organization, I don't know how many fans they necessarily have on. On the ground, but there was a lot of people within that front office that did not want to give up Shay. Like, basketball people knew what SGA was and it was going to be. And same with Halliburton, Right. Like you, I remember, you know, hearing a lot of people that were against the Halliburton trade. It was like, no matter what he becomes, you do not trade Tyrese Halliburtons or the type of players with that type of ilk, right? Whether they're a role player or whether they're a superstar, which is he. What's he end up being? And so, like, it's. In a lot of ways, these two teams fleeced some level of incompetence, and that's just where we are right now. And I think that you're going to start seeing a lot more of that with the. With the apron, right? Like, you're going to have to give up players left and right, and some lesser front offices are going to make these mistakes time and time again.
- [68:31]
Howard Beck
It's going to happen. But in this case, I think these were just two teams that were opportunistic place, right. Time and really smart, right?
- [68:38]
Logan Murdoch
Like.
- [68:39]
Howard Beck
The Thunder saw what Shay could become. The Clippers kind of knew it, too. But they had an opportunity to get Paul, George and Kawhi together. We don't need to relitigate that. The Thunder, or excuse me, the. The Pacers had reached a dead end with that Sabonis, Miles Turner pairing in the front court. They saw an opportunity. The Kings knew that the tie, or at least they felt the Tyrese and Deer and Fox weren't going to function well together. They couldn't trade Fox because he had the massive contract, the massive extension he just signed, so it was harder to trade him. So you trade the guy you could trade to try to balance out the rush. Like I get it. It doesn't mean it was justified, doesn't mean it was a good deal. But I at least understood the, the vague outline of it. One guy was more, way more tradable and more valuable and trade than the other. But the bottom line is Pritchard and Sam Presti saw something, pounced on it, did what they had to do to get those guys. And by the way, neither of those guys are high picks either. Like Halliburton was what, 13th and Shay 12th or vice versa. Like these, these were not what I love. One of the things I love about this series and I wrote about this last week is like they built a completely different way both these teams. The Thunder sure did like a two to three year tank, but it wasn't a six year style like five year tank job. And their best player, sorry Cliff, the Thunder's best player was acquired in a trade at a time when the guy wasn't even a star yet. Same for the Pacers. They acquired Halliburton before he was even a star and then they figured out how to build around these guys and they did it very differently. But it's not the old models. These are not top three picks who are leading the way. These are not superstars that they poached from elsewhere leading the way. Siakam's really good, but he's not that level. And so like they've just had to be really smart, really patient, really creative and I think it's fantastic. Again, like that's, that's the model now anywhere you are in the NBA, whatever size market you're in, like you know, hire a smart front off, smart front office and that gets you a lot of the way there.
- [70:37]
Logan Murdoch
Howard motherfucking Beck, ladies and gentlemen, before we get out, you have something to plug?
- [70:42]
Howard Beck
Yeah, quick plug. I think a lot of people know this just because it's popped up on social media a bunch. But I also am teaching at the Sports Business Classroom which is associated with the NBA Summer League. That's in mid July with summer league Sports Business Classroom is still accepting applications. So people want, if you want to learn how to be. So we have a media and broadcast unit. Myself J. Adande, Katie Heindel, CP the franchise the czar Mike Fratello is joining our group. Oh. So if you want to learn from any or all of the above, that's on the media side. But they're also if you want to be an agent, if you want to be an mba, gm, if you want to be a scout, an analytics person, salary cap Specialist, like the sports business classroom. Great experience. For all of that, go to sportsbusinessclassroom.com you can check it out there and register there. But it's fantastic program. I really enjoy teaching at it. And all the students I've met over the years who have gone through it, whether they're part of media or whether they're like cap or other like these, they learn so much. And a lot of them have been. Have gotten jobs in the league, too. I now bump into them on the road in various cities. So sports business help.
- [71:54]
Logan Murdoch
Look at Howard helping to cultivate his sources. Pro move right there.
- [71:59]
Howard Beck
Gotta play the long game.
- [72:00]
Logan Murdoch
Logan, you know the vibes. I have a plug too, man. The Sports Journalism Institute. I just spoke to the students on Monday, yesterday, and similar, similar vibes. They try to get a journalist of black and brown descent, women of color, women in general, into the field. If you want to make a donation, go to Sports Journalism Institute. Google them, figure it out. But it's a really great program. I am a part of it. People like Malika Andrews, friend of the show, Candice Buckner, some dude named Marcus Thompson.
- [72:37]
Howard Beck
Yeah, he's all right.
- [72:39]
Logan Murdoch
He's fine. List goes on and on. Jonathan Abrams, this goes on and on. But make sure you tap in with the Sports Journalism Institute. All right, that is this version of the program. We're going to see me, Howard Joel Anderson and Brian Curtis on the other side of this break, talking Inside the NBA. Okay, guys, we are back. I am mourning the end of Inside the NBA. I've been mourning it for some time now. And we are recording this on the Thursday before, potentially the last game of Inside the NBA on Turner, Inside the NBA as we know it. So to help me cope, I got a great panel of people. Mr. Brian Curtis and Mr. Joel Anderson from press box fame, and the immortal Howard motherfucking Beck, who, like me, was employed by Turner for a stretch with Bleacher Report. Myself, I was a summer intern in 2016. And I remember when we would do the. When we were doing the internship, Brian, they had us talk to, like, all the execs at some point. I'm not going to say all their names, but it was two years after the 2014 NBA TV deal and the mood around, you know, all the execs, we would go, like, we would set up appointments as, like, interns to such and such as office here. Such and such as office here. And everybody was so excited about another NBA deal because they were like, this is our lifeblood. This is what we do. We do NBA basketball, this is our thing. We, of course, we have NHL, of course we have mlb. But this is the bloodline of this, this institution. And to see it now go to where it is now. Brian, like, are you feeling as sad as I am that something is a part of our being as basketball consumers is dying or is dying, no matter what happens when Inside goes to espn, I am sad.
- [74:38]
Brian Curtis
And it's a strange kind of sadness, because what you're sad for is not that you're losing a friend, exactly, because Inside will be around, but you're losing theme music, you're using losing graphics, you're losing this kind of basketball. And the people here are old enough to remember that. In the 90s, the way you identified as a basketball fan is you watch the Turner games on weeknights and not just the NBC broadcast on weekends. That was. That was. See this before Advanced Stats, before the Zach Lowe podcast, before all that stuff. That was the tier of basketball fandom that you were watching weeknight basketball on Turner. And yes, I am going to miss that and miss that feeling.
- [75:22]
Logan Murdoch
What are you feeling, Joel? How are you processing the end of this or the booming and the seemingly end of this? We don't know if it's going to happen on Thursday, but the game, there's only going to be at least three more games left. Like, how are you?
- [75:34]
Joel Anderson
How are you coping without making it too personal? Like, I mean, really, the show has, like, I've kind of grown up with the show, and so there used to be a time when I could watch basketball all the time, right, where I just had nothing to do. Friday night, I'm watching the Malice at the palace, you know, whatever, you know, like, I'm, you know, there's. There's no bedtime. There's no other obligation. And slowly but surely, as I've gotten older and Now I've got two young kids, 1 3, 18 months old, and so it's very hard to watch anything. But the basketball event that I make time for are the games on tnt. And I will stay up late enough to watch Inside the NBA. And despite the fact that people have, like, talked about, you know, how negative they are, how uninformed they are about the game or whatever, I'm in it for a good time, bro. And they always seem like they're having a good time. And so that's. It's possible that they will be able to do that. Espn, as a former ESPN employee, I'm rooting for it. I think it's. ESPN is one of the last Places in media that is, you know, wholeheartedly invested in sports and bringing sports to folks. But, like, when is, when is espn, like, been able to organically create fun on tv? You know, except in a. In a few instances, particularly with, like, these panel shows. Right? Yeah, they've tried it so many different ways. You know, with a Sunday NFL show, their NBA shows, like, I mean, they're, they're good and they're informed, but they're not inside the NBA. And so that's kind of, that's kind of what I'm, I'm. I friend. Like, you know, like, like, like Brian said, like, the graphics, the all the other stuff, the EJ's, you know, stat of the week or whatever, like, is that going to go to espn? I don't know, but I'm going to miss all of that, that, that particular moment because, you know, if you're, if you're of a certain age, like, you feel like they were your buddies, you woke up and it was like, man, I went to sleep inside the NBA was on, and now I'm watching Charmed reruns. You know, I woke up in Charm reruns. That was a real thing for a lot of people. And, like, that's just going away. So. But, you know, I mean, there's not.
- [77:45]
Logan Murdoch
Going to be a montage of like, Shaq having to use the bathroom early. At least I don't think so on a Disney network. Like, it was last episode. Howard, you are in the unique position because you covered the game while Inside the NBA was on its reign, and then you become a Turner employee. Now, I'll be able to Bleak's report, but if I'm not mistaken, you had done some stuff for Turner and gone to Atlanta. Like, and now you have the distinction. You might be at the last Turner game tonight at the Garden. What are your feelings like? And how was the. How was it going from where you were as a beat writer with the Times and then to kind of come into that fold with Bleacher? What are your feelings right now? How are you doing?
- [78:33]
Howard Beck
It's weird because we've got this, like, long, slow goodbye, right? This prolonged farewell where first it was, oh, Turner might lose the deal. They might be out. What.
- [78:47]
Logan Murdoch
What.
- [78:47]
Howard Beck
What would that be like? And then as that slowly becomes reality, and then they come up with this, this, this strange hybrid thing where, like, well, Turner won't have the contract with the NBA anymore, but inside the NBA will live on. Probably still from Studio J, we think, maybe. I don't know, Brian.
- [79:06]
Logan Murdoch
We're also not clear on like how they're gonna do it. Right. Like what games are going to be Countdown versus Inside that. We just haven't gotten clarity on that.
- [79:13]
Howard Beck
Yeah. And like when Brian was talking about like, well, it'll still be them, but maybe not the theme song and maybe not the graphics or maybe not like the things that make it feel and sound so familiar and like a part of our extended family. If those things fall away and it's just the four guys, I mean they're, they're the essence of the show. But as, as we all know, because of what we do for a living and as folks at Turner for sure know, it's like dozens, hundreds, whatever of employees who also are like the ones who are behind the graphics and the production and the presentation that make it feel the way it does. It's never just the four guys on our screen. And so it's just been interesting because we knew that was this was going to happen. And then we hear more details along the way, but we're still not sure what it's actually going to look like when they're inside the NBA. Brought to you by espn. I don't know what that looks or sounds like. Will it still look or feel the same? And so we had the All Star goodbye where there was the, I think unfortunately executed, you know, tribute to themselves on the court.
- [80:14]
Logan Murdoch
Did you fall asleep in the All Star game when that happened? I think during that break I might have fell as fallen asleep.
- [80:19]
Howard Beck
I did. I did. I did not. But it was, it was a little 45 minutes. It was too long. I love those guys, but it was too long. And so there was that goodbye. It was their final All Star weekend. I wrote about it at the time for the ringer that there was that goodbye and then we have maybe a goodbye tonight at the Garden if it's their last on site game where the studio was on, on the premises at an arena because that's not going to happen again when you're not actually carrying the game yourself. We might still see Shaq, Chuck, Ernie, Kenny, but not on site in this. In this. So we have all these different goodbyes and then it's not even a full goodbye because they're going to be back next season and we just don't know what it's going to look. So I like it's, I think it's just very, it's a very strange conflicted feeling where we can't quite mourn the end of inside the NBA. We can mourn it at the end of what it was as we knew it, but it's not completely going away. So like, I, I, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to feel other than when I, if I see those guys tonight. I saw Shaq on the court pregame at the last Knicks home game. Bumped into Ernie briefly too. Like I, I'm gonna like say hello and thank you and shake hands or whatever, but it's still gonna be weird because, like, we're not really saying goodbye. Like they're going to be around, just not the same. I don't know. It's weird.
- [81:35]
Logan Murdoch
Well, Brian, how do they, how does ESPN make the best version that they can of Inside the NBA without. If we know anything about espn, we know that they put guardrails on, on certain things. Now that has changed with Pat McAfee, but you get what I'm saying with their network shows, they're really like hands on with the, with the Countdown or, or NFL Countdown as well. But everything I know about Inside and how it's produced is it's very on the fly production, right? Like they'll see some, they'll have some memes that they see on television. It's immediately going on screen. Like, part of the great thing about Inside is that everybody but Ernie has no idea what's going on. And it does have that element of surprise. But how does ESPN recreate that if they do it at all? Like, what are you expecting this new Inside set to look like? And how does that format survive with us, the common NBA fan?
- [82:37]
Brian Curtis
Do you remember a few years ago when the Daryl Morey Hong Kong incident happened? ESPN treated that like Love Canal or Three Mile Island. I mean, it was like, nobody talk about this. We cannot touch this at all. And if we do, it is very, very, very carefully. Inside just happened to be here in LA and they were doing the show live from outside of now Crypto, then Staples. And I remember talking to the guys at this little media function afterwards and Ernie Johnson said, oh, we didn't talk about what we were going to say when we addressed the Daryl Morey situation. Like, they didn't, they did not script it at all. They didn't even lay out, like, what are we going to do about this issue that everybody in the NBA was worried about? So just think about that distinction between the way Inside handled it and the way ESPN as a company handled that one issue. I will say, and Joel and I have talked about a lot this a lot on Pressbox is in the announcer empowerment era at espn. People can get away with A lot more. They have a lot more latitude. Joel says ESPN can't create fun while they can purchase fun. And they've done that with McAfee. Your mileage may vary. They've done that with Joe and Troy on Monday Night Football. And those people have a lot of power. So I would be shocked, honestly, if it is all that different in terms of the content. Like, I just, I do not see much of a universe where Charles is going to let himself be produced, where those guys. This show is going to be done by Turner and sort of leased to espn. You know, again, we can talk about the length of the show, which I think is very, very key to the whole thing. But in terms of what they are going to be able to say, I would actually bet the other way and that it. Bet that it's going to be a lot more like classic inside the NBA.
- [84:23]
Joel Anderson
Don't you think, by the way too, if, if ESPN does try to intrude in quite that way, it'll be grand opening going, grand closing for Chuck, right? Like, I mean, it's like he's looking for a reason to retire. And if it feels like it, right. He says, he said, he says. But if, if they tried to handle him in that way, then I imagine that he'd be like, I can find other ways to spend my time.
- [84:48]
Howard Beck
Yeah, I think it's very clear that that would be Chuck's stance. I would imagine it would be all of their stances. But Chuck for sure is not going to, you know, he doesn't suffer fools and he's not going to suffer somebody trying to tell him what he can and can't say on the air how to behave himself. I, in my discussions with people at Turner, especially around All Star Weekend, and I chatted with Kenny, Shaq and Chuck for that story, it certainly sounded like everybody at Turner feels like they've got all the assurances they need that we're going to be able to do what we do the way we've done it without any interference. That is the expectation. So I don't think we all should believe otherwise until or unless we see otherwise. But I still feel like that's this weird thing hanging over it until we actually get there next season. But yeah, I don't. It does not survive if ESPN tries to control it, if Disney tries to control it in any way, shape or form, form.
- [85:43]
Logan Murdoch
Howard, what was it like, like when you did go into Atlanta? Because I did the summer internship. But like, what was it like being in that little ethos? Right. Like I Know, we don't say, like, we don't use family and work and stuff like that, but as close as you can. From my experience with Turner, that's probably the closest environment to like a work family that I've ever seen in my life in terms of, like, how they, you know, go on the road with each other that, you know, they're friends that go to each other's weddings. You could just see just the camaraderie. What was it like day to day when you would go. If. When you did go to Atlanta?
- [86:17]
Howard Beck
I went down there a bunch of times. So, like, sometimes they'd fly me down there for some NBA TV stuff. We would do, like, I don't know, a trade deadline special or playoff special or something, whatever. So I'd go down there and, you know, sit there in the studio, do stuff with Jared Greenberg, Brian Geltz Eiler, Sam Mitchell, whoever. So, like, there were those trips and then there were a couple of times that I went down because I was working on something that was just a story where I needed Shaq or I needed Chuck or I needed Kenny or whatever for just regular NBA stories. And they were always just so welcoming. Now, granted, being at Bleacher Report, which was owned by Turner, you're kind of considered part of the family by then. But they had all known me previously from New York Times or maybe even LA Daily News. So I was, I had this weird line I was straddling where it was like I was always covering them as a reporter who was outside of this. But once I was at Bleacher Report, there's probably a little more consideration to just kind of get to go hang out. But the thing is, as anybody who's ever gone to hang out there knows, you don't have to be a Turner employee to just be felt, to feel like you're at home hanging out around Studio J or in the, in the green room or in the lounge or wherever in that, in that complex. It's just really chill there. And, and like, no, like, people just like, Dwayne Wade's just walking through. Hey, what's up? Like, it's just, it's. It just very relaxed.
- [87:32]
Logan Murdoch
Grant Hill is just like smooth as ever. Just walking through the corridors.
- [87:36]
Howard Beck
Yeah, and, and, and I loved that about it where, you know, from the on air talent to the PR people I dealt with, to producers to whoever, it did not ever feel corporate. It did not ever feel buttoned down. And I've never been in any of ESPN's complexes. And you know, Joel can, Can Speak to that more intelligently than I can or more informed than I can. But, like, everything I've ever heard about ESPN sounds a hell of a lot more corporate and a little stilted sometimes. Turner has this very. It is a family atmosphere, which sounds, like, so cliche and so Pollyanna and annoying, right? Because, like, how could they. Like, they're this massive, you know, entertainment conglomerate. Whatever they're part of, I don't know, Discovery, Warner, whatever the they are now. The Turner Sports part of it always had a more intimate feel. And. And I really appreciated that. And it was. And it was fun hanging out. Like, I'd be sitting there, like, talking to Chuck while he's getting made up in. In the. In the makeup room, and everybody's just, like, yucking it up. And then, like, the. The. The. They got the one room, that lounge, where they've got all the TV screens and these massive chairs they can sit in where they go when they're not on air. And again, it's just like. Everybody's just, like, shooting the shit, giving each other grief about whatever. And I don't know, it was just. It was fun. I enjoyed getting to hang out there. And, yeah, that's not what I would have expected going in.
- [89:01]
Logan Murdoch
I remember just that summer. It was the summer 2016, and it was the year KD went to Golden State, but it was also the year, like, Timothy. It was like Timothy Mozagova got, like, a crazy deal with the Lakers, but that was like a crazy free agency. And I remember just being in the. And that room that you speak of, because that's the. I don't know if that's the green room. I think that's the green room that you're speaking of, Howard, where everybody's chilling. There's a. There's a big, long desk where the production meetings happen, and then there are a group of chairs in front of it. That's how it was when I was there. So I would just be in that chair because it was so lax, like you were interning. But, like, it was basically like, come whenever you want to come to any show that you want to go to. And I would just be there from, like, 9:00am to whenever that shit. Like, it helped that it was really hot in Atlanta, but I was in there the whole summer. But it was just, like. It was so cool because, like, you could. They were so welcoming in a lot of ways where I've been done television, other places. And it's not like that. It's very much closed ranks, and they're like, nah, come in. And I remember that was the first time David Aldridge was there. And I remember he was going to, like, he was getting ready for television. He was away from his phone, and I saw somebody was calling him. It was Sam Presti. And I had to go, Mr. Aldous, Mr. Aldridge, Sam Presti's calling you. That was so wild to me. Right. But they were just so accommodating, and it was really. I'll never forget that summer. And just. Well, it wasn't quite inside, but it was. Turner, you could see the family dynamic not just from, like, inside the NBA, but from the NBA TV shows and the symmetry there. Right. And all the other NBA shows that they had on NBA TV and everything that was in there. That symmetry with Cartoon Network, which was also at Techwood, you know, and Adult Swim, which was also in Techwood. Right. It was just this big campus of all of these different networks. It was really cool. But, Joe, I want to talk to you a little bit about Charles Barkley.
- [91:04]
Joel Anderson
Oh, okay.
- [91:05]
Logan Murdoch
And you're. You're always talking about. I listen to the press box religiously, and you're always talking about, you know, Houston and Texas and all that propaganda.
- [91:13]
Joel Anderson
Well, hey, you just said that Houston's one of your favorite NBA cities.
- [91:17]
Brian Curtis
You.
- [91:17]
Joel Anderson
I know that might ruin your bona fides in the bay, but, you know, Houston's one of your favorite NBA cities.
- [91:23]
Logan Murdoch
So, hey, man, there's only a beef between Rockets fans of warriors fans. There ain't no beef between the bay and Houston itself, I don't think. But I like, you know, Houston's the. I love Houston. It's a great NBA city. I love. I love it. I was just saying, in the case of the question, though, during the time when, what were your feelings when Charles first became onto the seam on inside because he had kind of stolen some money from Houston Rockets for the last couple of years of his career. And I know that probably put a bad taste in your mouth, but then he comes with a television and, like, what is. What do you think he becomes as you. As you are coming of age? And what does he become to you and bikes this and all your homies and all the. All the NBA fans that.
- [92:02]
Joel Anderson
You know, I think the one thing about Chuck that is really interesting, and I do have kind of a funny Charles Barkley story, is that when he was with the Phoenix Suns, he came to Houston to play against the Rockets. And I probably went to maybe six, seven Rockets games total. You know, it's kind of expensive. My parents Were not. You know, we weren't that flush with Clash, but if you would cut your hair off like Barkley, you could get to the game. So my dad got his hair.
- [92:28]
Howard Beck
He went.
- [92:29]
Joel Anderson
They. They gave him a baldy outside of the Summit so we could go watch the Charles Barkley and the Sons play in Houston. I've always been a Charles Barkley fan, man. And, you know, I read. So I read. I think he's written probably about eight memoirs and a couple with, like, one with Michael. Michael Wilbourne. But there was one that was before he went to Phoenix and, like, near the end of his time in Philadelphia. And I've always just been sort of charmed by him because there's a. You can tell when somebody is really, really comfortable with himself. Right. And I admired the fact that he was willing to be wrong in public. Right. And so that's how I've always just sort of followed him. And so when he ended up going on inside the NBA or whatever, it seemed sort of like a perfect fit. Like, I'm not one of those guys that is like, oh, you know, the most popular athlete in the sport. You've got to get him on tv. Like, I mean, we'll see what happens with Tom Brady. But, like, I was old enough to remember seeing Joe Montana on TV and being like, oh, that's. That's not. That's not going so great. I mean, I saw, you know, look, I love Magic. I love Magic Johnson, man. But I saw Magic Johnson on TV and it was like, ooh. I don't know if I need to see more of that, you know, but with Barkley, it always sort of made sense kind of in the way. And I know people won't agree with me on this, but, like, Draymond, like, I mean, Draymond is a person. I feel like I see him on TV and I'm like, oh, he's really good at this. Really comfortable with himself and comfortable on tv. And so I am a huge Barkley fan, and I. When he was on there, it seemed like the perfect fit. And the only thing that I ever worried about when he was on that show is that he would try to branch out too much. Right. Like, I was just like, he's so smart and smoke, so funny within his world. And that sometimes, whenever he tries to venture outside a little bit and they try to make him into some sort of, like, a philosopher, Right?
- [94:25]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [94:26]
Joel Anderson
Try to make him like a country boy philosopher.
- [94:27]
Logan Murdoch
We need to have a dialog. Chuck is the wild waters.
- [94:31]
Joel Anderson
That's the thing yeah, and it's just like, man, it's just. But. And it's really a testament to Chuck that, like, he can sort of make those missteps and people just kind of overlook because it is, you know, man, he doesn't take himself too seriously, and he's also open to critique, and he has something that, I think that is a gift that is unique to humans, but especially the kind of people on that end up on tv. He's willing to make fun of himself and let other people make fun of him. And I think that says a lot about him. And so I, you know, I. I think he's probably one of the more fascinating TV figures. And that's why anytime a media property tries to do something, they, like, interview Charles Barkley like they want to. You know, like when the Undefeated started out, you know, Jason Whitlock wrote a huge feature on Charles Barkley, because everybody is just trying to, like, get their arms around the phenomenon of Charles Barkley, because.
- [95:22]
Logan Murdoch
Was that Charles. Was that. Was that Whitlock that wrote that? I feel like there was somebody else. Was it.
- [95:25]
Joel Anderson
Would, like.
- [95:26]
Logan Murdoch
No, I don't think it was Whitlock.
- [95:27]
Brian Curtis
Jesse David Washington, I believe, was the one.
- [95:29]
Joel Anderson
Was it Jesse Washington? Was it Jesse Washington?
- [95:32]
Brian Curtis
I believe so.
- [95:33]
Joel Anderson
Okay, you're right.
- [95:34]
Howard Beck
It's.
- [95:34]
Brian Curtis
Jesse Washington published it.
- [95:35]
Joel Anderson
But, yes, Whitlock published it. Right. There you go. So, yeah, so. But people want to get their arms around Charles Barkley. Like, they really want to explain him. He's sort of like a. You know, he's. He's a person that is fascinating. And I mean, there's a reason for that, and you see it every night. And that's the reason why I stay up late, even though I probably shouldn't. I should go to sleep. But I want to see what Chuck is going to say because he's willing to make fun of himself. He's willing to. You know, I mean, man, there was the other night on tv, he was up there talking about tariffs and how stupid they were. Who else?
- [96:09]
Logan Murdoch
Who else.
- [96:09]
Joel Anderson
Who else is. Who else is comfortable enough, let alone a sports figure, comfortable enough to do that? And so that's the thing that I really admire about Chuck. Like, I'm. We don't always align on stuff, but I mean, I. TV is better for having had that guy on. On for the, like, the last 30 years.
- [96:27]
Howard Beck
Can I just, like, jump in for a sec, Logan? Like, because I have this question for Brian and for. And for Joel, because you guys, you're watching other sports, and I don't watch other sports anymore. And it's been so long since I watched other sports on a regular basis, I'm having a hard time remembering if I ever felt this way. But is there any other studio show where it's like, yeah, I actually want to turn in, tune in for the pre game or the, or the halftime or the post game. Like, Joel's talking about, like falling asleep in front of it because we're trying, especially if we live on the east coast, you're trying to stay awake because you want to be. You know there's going to be something worthwhile. And if you miss it now, today, okay, fine, there'll be some viral clip on social media tomorrow and I'll catch it. I won't lose out. But the desire to actually watch a studio show when so many of them are either too formulaic, too dull, too self serious, there's a lot of that. Like, guys, is there anything else? Has there been in another sport where it's like, oh, this is must see? I mean, I know college football on ESPN has got a thing going, but like, I don't, I just don't know that any we've ever seen this dynamic for this sport or any other.
- [97:34]
Brian Curtis
The only possible answer, and I'll answer for me and Joel on this one, is college game day on espn.
- [97:39]
Howard Beck
That's what I figured.
- [97:40]
Brian Curtis
But the biggest difference is inside the NBA has danger to it. You don't know what's going to happen on the show. And television doesn't have very much danger. TV pregame shows especially do not have danger. They are scripted, they are terrible. They are not for sports fans. Like, we watch that stuff. It's like, I like football. I don't want to watch any of this. This is not, this is not necessary to me. This is all worse than 10 minutes of any podcast I could listen to, which would actually tell me much more about the games. Then you watch insights like, not only do I not know what they're going to say, I don't know when the show's going to end. It's just going to kind of roll into the night and it may stop. They may do another segment. They may, you know, just kind of get a little punch drunk late in the night and just start saying things that, you know, I mean, that's, that's the part of it. And when we go back to Barkley on tv, like, to me, and I know we are contractually obligated to call this a sliding doors moment at the ringer, the big moment in Barkley's career is in 2000.
- [98:42]
Logan Murdoch
Have you seen that movie, Brian?
- [98:43]
Brian Curtis
I have. And it turns out the big moment of Barkley's career in 2000, he could either have gone to NBC or to Turner. They both really, really courted him. I was asking Costas about this on the press box last year, and he couldn't remember why he turned down NBC because he was Barkley's really tight with Dick Ebersol. But if he had gone to NBC and been in a much more stilted, programmed pregame environment, and then NBC would lose the contract. Maybe he goes to ESPN or something like that. I don't think we get 20% of what we got from Charles Barkley on television.
- [99:16]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, and I think it's even more than that, too. Go ahead, Joe. Were you going to say no?
- [99:20]
Joel Anderson
No, no, no. I mean, I agree. And I was trying to think if there was another. Brian, were you. Were you a fan of college football final when it had Lou Holt, when.
- [99:28]
Brian Curtis
Rhys Davis was dressing like a judge Davis?
- [99:31]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, I mean, I kind of thought that show was kind of funny in a way, and I would kind of stay up for it, but that's just because I'm a college football head. But yet, to your point, like, don't you think NFL Live is currently constituted is. I'm not saying that they are inside the NBA, but like, they're coming about as close as you can come to doing what they do in terms of, like, the relationships between the people on the panel, the sort of the fun that they have to it. But also they're a little bit more serious. Right. But I. That is about as close as I've seen. But yeah, like, other than that, I can't think of anything else. Maybe, maybe that's a failure on our part. Like maybe baseball tonight. Like, I don't, you know, when they had, you know, Harold on there and everything like that, I felt like that was kind of a fun show, too. But it's not. Nowhere nothing compares to.
- [100:20]
Brian Curtis
And the other thing that's so startling, and I'd love to get you guys to talk about this too, since you're more in the minds on this one than Joel and I are. But inside the NBA is going against every trend in media, not just in the terms of, like, we're dealing with analytics and we're dealing with other ways to think about basketball, but we also have podcasters that actually closely watch the games from week to week, which I think Chuck and company, especially Chuck, would tell you he does not exactly do. Or Shaq does not exactly Do. There have been so many hilarious moments, but it doesn't matter, right? Like, they are grandfathered in. So you. In the one way, on the one sense, you have every ringer podcast headed this way. You have inside the NBA headed the other way. And it works. It's great.
- [101:03]
Logan Murdoch
Despite all that, you know, I think that's the reason why it works, because it's like nothing we've seen, right? And I think when you do go with the trends, that you end up being a bland show. Like, I just think that you become one of many as opposed to one of one, which is what they are. It's funny because, like, even when you talk about the preparedness of these guys. So Chuck, for instance, right? I've heard both sides of the ledger on Chuck in terms of how much he actually consumed. On one hand, when we're doing the tour and at Techwood, when I'm an intern, they're pointing at the TV that Chuck watches Scandal on before every inside and during the games. He has a specific stream for Scandal at the time. And then the other thing, other, the other side of it, I'm like, no, Chuck is locked in because he's betting on all these games, right? Like, you know, and that might have been facetious, you know, I don't know. But he's literally betting on his game, so he has to pay attention, right? So I. On that note, I think that that's the one note on Chuck. But like, in terms of why they are successful, I mean, they just seem like part of the family in that way, right? Like, not just on television, by the way. Like, if you guys know media members, just like how I know media members, everybody has a story about how they went after the game to a hotel that Turner was. Was at, and Chuck is holding court at the bar. Right? I know, because I have been in one of these things and it's. It's like, it's a sight to behold, right? Like, Chuck's here. You never know who else is going to come through and pull up, right? Like, it's like a baseball card exhibition of your favorite players that come through. Or whether that's media, whether that's just like random actors who are in the area, right? But I think that they, like, have this sense of familiarity and like, they also have personalities that like to touch the people, you know, Like, Shaq loves to be outside, Kenny loves to be outside. Right? Like, you see these people in your everyday when you're going to a game. They feel part of the game in a way that other Places don't, because I don't feel like they embrace all the other stuff the way Inside does.
- [103:13]
Joel Anderson
Well, can I ask you guys a question then? So, like, what do you guys think about Shaq, like, as. Because obviously, like, he was a very controversial addition. Like, we're doing a lot of, you know, hagraphy of that show right now, right? And we're like, oh, man, it was so great. But I felt like, especially when Shaq first got started and I even as watching, I was like, oof, he's holding the ball. They gotta. He's got. He's gotta come off the ball. So, like, what did you guys think about Shaq? And like, do you think he's actually better, or do you just think they figured out a way to minimize his. You know, his initial flaws were.
- [103:48]
Logan Murdoch
I think it's both. I think it's both. I remember I talked to shaq during the 2014 All Star Game, and he said, like, that first year was really hard for him because. I'm paraphrasing, but it was really hard for him because he had to integrate within a show that wasn't his. And I think you saw that. It's just like if you have any big personality joining a team, whether it's basketball, whether it's television, all those things, he still wants to get his shots up, be him. And he had to figure out how to find his way working within the flow of the offense. It took him a few years, but I think he's. Howard, I think he's right in the mix of right now. I think he's as good as he's ever been on television because like I said, it goes back to that family aspect of it. Right. And also, you know, Shaq on television, you know, he's going to be sensitive, you know that he's going to do pull pranks on himself. You know, all of these things about him, however many years later. So you're used to it.
- [104:42]
Howard Beck
I mean, think about Shaq's career as a player. Like, he's never been a role player in his life. And on inside the NBA, he's a role player and he's coming in from the outside. They're established. Those other three guys are established. I remember when Chris Weber was in the studio there for a while. I don't remember how many games or even years or whatever he did. It seemed like it was a longish time where he was the fourth guy for a while. And I thought Webber actually fit him pretty well and was really good there and was much better doing that. Than he was when he was eventually on games. But he was the only other one I really remembered as being like a fixture there. And I remember when they brought in Shaq, having covered Shaq in L. A And I thought, like, all right, Shaq is the life of the party. Shaq is like the center of every room he's ever in. He's going to be the guy that everyone's gravitating toward. He's such a big personality, such a big goofball. And Chuck is. Is just such a huge personality himself. And I was there the. You know, they show the clip all the time of those two guys fighting. I was. I covered that game where Shaq ends up kind of like picking up Chuck and they both topple over. And all that.
- [105:46]
Logan Murdoch
Was an earthquake. Was there. Was there literal furniture moving?
- [105:50]
Howard Beck
The ground. The ground under the compact. The then named compact center did. But. So I wasn't sure how that would work. And I do think it was like, Shaq was awkward when he first got on that show. There's no question. And I think he'd probably even admit that, like, he just didn't know when. When to speak up or how. What to say, how long to. To do his thing. I think he had to find his way. But I think for all the criticism that he gets that the show gets of it not being granular enough or basketball enough or whatever, they're all playing their role. Those are four distinct personalities up there. You know exactly what Ernie's role is as, you know, traffic cop slash, whatever.
- [106:33]
Logan Murdoch
TV father.
- [106:34]
Howard Beck
Father. Yeah, exactly. You know, like, Ernie has his role down to a T and all. He has to. And it doesn't. It doesn't involve something that anybody told him he had to do. He just had to be Ernie freaking Johnson. Like, the guy's awesome. Awesome human being, awesome broadcaster. He just has to be him, and Kenny just has to be him, and Chuck just has to be him. And Shaq had to figure out how to be a different version of him where he's not the life of the party at all times. And to play a role. And whatever you may think of what any given sound bite gives you or doesn't, whether it's basketball enough or whether it's just them screwing around, it doesn't matter. The show is like. I don't want to say it's all vibes, but it's like 85% vibes.
- [107:13]
Logan Murdoch
I think it created the term all vibes, Howard. I think that show created it. If they. There was some legal thing of why they couldn't say do inside the NBA. The show should just be named All Vibes.
- [107:24]
Brian Curtis
I will say one thing about Shaq too, is when he first got on that show, his delivery was just so different than any other person on televisions. It's a little more offhand. He's not looking into a camera and directly addressing a camera to borrow bodily.
- [107:44]
Logan Murdoch
Harm to his co host.
- [107:45]
Brian Curtis
Right. To borrow a phrase. We were not familiar with his game. And I think once we all adjusted to that, yeah, I think he became part of the family.
- [107:53]
Howard Beck
I think it's just, it's funny too because like, they're always usually studio guys at a studio desk, you're looking at each other or you're looking at whoever's talking. And you can always see when you have the four shot where they're looking at each other. Except for Shaq, who's just staring straight at. He has his own odd demeanor there where he's just. He is a little bit still kind of in his own world. Also, there's nothing quite like seeing Shaq, who now wears glasses all the time, at least when he's on tv pushing up his glasses periodically with that, like the world's largest finger. It's just like that alone just feels like a Shaq thing. I don't know. That's a really weird detail. But like I just, I never, I do not ever not notice how many negatives in that sentence. You know, when Shaq pushes up his glasses.
- [108:34]
Logan Murdoch
I love the. I also love like that Shaq makes championship rings of his own. Right? Like he does. He doesn't always bring his, his championship ring. It's like a third, a random 34 that he made. And then every time, every time Chuck says something, he'll put the big ass ring. That's an honor championship ring. Like, you don't have one of these. You don't have one of these.
- [108:54]
Joel Anderson
I mean, see, that's the funny. See, I'd say my, my hot take is that I, I don't. I still think Shaq is bad. Like, I think whenever they ask Cha. Whenever they ask Shaq anything, like, it's just like. Yeah, well, you know, I think that, you know, you got to work it down into the paint. You know, you got to take over the games. You got to dominate. Like Shaq. Shaq's in game analysis is always the big guy should be like me, right? And, and his questions are always bad. Like he, like he's never. I'm sorry, he's never asked a good question. But I think the thing is, is that the chemistry and the camaraderie is so good that it doesn't really matter. But are you telling me that if they were to replace him with Vince Carter or they kind of. Draymond, you don't think. You don't think. You don't think that show would just be the same or maybe better now?
- [109:41]
Logan Murdoch
And I want to talk about Draymond really quickly. I think that Draymond has done great on television. I will say that. Right. But I think that he is at his best. And we've seen this at the conference finals when he's not, like, going at other players, when he's giving you just straight, like, hoop talk. He is amazing. Right? Like. And I think that sometimes he gets in his own way with that. I think the maturation for Draymond is. And I hope that this is. This ends up happening like, now that the crop that he kind of came in with is kind of retiring out. But I hope that the next maturation is him just not trying to settle scores wherever he goes, because I don't know if he's going to go to ESPN or whatever, because he is so good at the basketball portion of this and telling you why someone is wrong. I remember one time I was in a. In the locker room, I forgot. And Zion was playing at Duke, and I forgot which game it was. I forgot which game it was. I know the other team was in black, but my memory just. Just really fails me on the team. But I remember we were. It was post game, and for the last five possessions of that game, he told everybody in the press room or in the locker room what Zion was going to do and how this game was going to play out. And it was fascinating. And this is. Some of. This is in the locker room with some of the best minds that have ever played the game. And you could see his mind just going. And that's what I want to see on television. You know, I want to see him, like, whatever Tony Romo tries to do, Draymond was actually doing it because he was watching Bill. Right? Like, that's what I want to see. And maybe. Maybe the role for him is maybe play by play. But I. That's what I want to see more of from Draymond going forward. Is it Turner or anywhere else?
- [111:22]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, well, I mean, I think that. And we. And we talked about this a little on the press box, Brian, and I, like. I think it's beneath them when they go after the Rudy Go Bears and the Cat or whatever. Like, I don't I'm not into that. Like, I don't. I think that's cruel, and I think it's like, they don't have to. Their. Their legacies and their. Their stature is such that they don't have to do that. But if they engage in sort of that pettiness, and I don't like it, and I hope that they will discontinue that when they move over to espn. But to your point, yeah, like, I. If you could get that out of Draymond, but, you know, part of it. I'm sure that's what inspires him and makes him the player that he is. He kind of holds on to that stuff in his chest, but I think he's great. I think. I think Draymond is fantastic on there. Like, it's. He noted. They've tried a lot of other people. They've had Dwayne Wade there, like you said. They've had Vince, they've had White Howard, the much less success. But Dre is great, man, and I would actually like to see him more. Like, I would, you know, whenever his career is over, whatever. I feel like they need to bring him in there because he does bring in the analysis. I mean, Kenny does some of that, too, but he brings in some of the analysis that people think that that panel lacks already.
- [112:28]
Howard Beck
Well, that's. That's the thing that guys that I'm curious about and. And I'm. I'm curious, Joel and Brian, like, if you have thoughts on this, like, because there was a time when we. The parlor game was when Chuck. If and when Chuck ever retires, who replaces him? Oh, okay. Draymond's now in the queue, right? He's. He's in. In the pipeline. And it. Maybe Draymond becomes the new Chuck. He's got that combination of, like, you know, gravitas from the way he played and ability to. But also, you know, ability to certainly break down the game. Big personality, not afraid to say anything. Okay, cool. He'll slot in there. And then eventually he was like, oh, it looks like Adam Lefkoe is being tapped to be the eventual new Ernie. And like you, we were playing this game of, like, where does it eventually go? Well, now it's not going to go anywhere when those guys are done, that show is probably done. But we do have Amazon and NBC coming online and a bunch of new talent that they're bringing in. And the thing that I'm curious about, and I don't know that anybody has the answer to this, but I'm Curious if you guys have thoughts like, you can't replicate what inside the NBA has because it will not have Chuck and Ernie and Shaq and Kenny or whatever, the production staff, everything. There's a chemistry there. There's this whatever, ineffable thing. But you can aspire to be some combination of a show that has maybe a little bit more information, a little bit more explanatory for the modern fan, but somehow still has the heart and soul and chemistry and fun and spontaneity. Because if you were any other studio show, you should want to aspire to that. Maybe not all of it, but the vibe part we were talking about earlier, you should want that. Is there any chance that NBC or Amazon gets this right, where we get, like, the balance of vibes and information? Because that's what I'm kind of hoping for since these guys are starting from scratch.
- [114:09]
Brian Curtis
It's the single hardest thing to do on television. And I'll piggyback off a point you made Howard earlier. People watch television for relationships. They listen to podcasts for relationships. They like the information, they like the analysis. They like you talking about sports that they're into, but they watch for the relationships between the people on the set. That's all it is. At the end of the day, that is. And it sounds like, oh, well, that's easy. Let's all be friends and have this great chemistry. Well, it's hard, right? It's really hard. And if you look at inside, one of the things that always surprises me is Chuck is the most talented person on that show, and he's also the biggest deal on that show, Right? He is the straw that stirs the drink. He could talk ten times as much as he does now if he wanted to. But he doesn't want to, right? If anything, he lays out a lot and waits for the ball to come back to him. That's part of having a relationship. I want this guy to get a touch. I want this guy to get a touch. It doesn't have to all be about me. And again, that is the hardest thing, because, one, you got to have people that actually have friendships and care about each other. And two, those TV egos have to be dialed down enough that people are willing to do that. So can Dirk Nowitzki and Steve Nash do that on Amazon? Maybe. Like, they have a history together. They seem like they could do it. But look, ESPN's been trying to do this for decades, literally decades, and they can't get it right. They cannot create a relationship that makes people want to Come back and watch that show.
- [115:42]
Howard Beck
The, the.
- [115:42]
Joel Anderson
You. You. You said the relationships and friendships, Brian. And also piggyback off of that. Like, Barclay is naturally funny. I mean, the reason people gravitate toward him or they, you know, you see him holding court and these hotel lobbies or whatever is because he's a funny person. And that is really, really hard to replicate. Anybody that's ever had to be funny on TV or on air knows how difficult that is. And so I'm going to propose this, and if they use this idea, I'm going to sue them. But. No, I'm just joking. But. And, and it really depends on if this person can get his personal life together. Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce. I like, I like. I don't necessarily.
- [116:21]
Brian Curtis
I don't necessarily go, well, that's, that's.
- [116:24]
Joel Anderson
What I was gonna say. I mean, if.
- [116:25]
Logan Murdoch
Joel, have you been watching Truth After Dark? I don't think he's on that. I don't think he's on his way back, buddy. I don't see.
- [116:31]
Joel Anderson
That's, that's kind of the thing. I was like, if he can get his life together.
- [116:34]
Logan Murdoch
I don't think that's happening anytime soon.
- [116:36]
Joel Anderson
If he could get his life together. Because, I mean, I don't necessarily listen to their podcast all the time, but I look at the chemistry that they have. Kevin Garnett is a naturally funny guy. He's also a really smart guy. He's a huge personality. He's got the, the, the profile and the stature that other players respect. And like, that's the kind of molded guy that I'm like, oh, if you, if, if you're trying, nobody's ever going to replace Barkley. It's just not gonna happen. But that would be sort of the guy that I would be looking at and like, and I like Gilbert Arenas, for instance. But I was like, I know that.
- [117:06]
Logan Murdoch
Deal might be the guy, though, that you're at. That you're doing. Because, like, even KG had his, Had a, Had a chance at Turner back in the day, and it just didn't work out right because he was, he was very much KG behind the scenes as he is in, in the locker room. If you get my drip. Right. Yeah, no, but Gil might. I love what Gil is doing. He might be the next one up in that way. Brian, I want to get to. I want to make sure we save space for Kenny and Ernie, and I know that that's both. Those are, those are two different orbits within this show. Let's start with Kenny before We get to Ernie, right? Every time we talk about Kenny, it's in the context of even they make fun of him, right. Like he is the one that is probably the most expendable, right. But I also feel like, and I'm not saying that disrespectfully, I love him. I think he's great at part of the show. And I think that that gets to the question, and I'm going to ask you, what is his impact on this show, Right? Because he is a very integral part of what they do and who they are. And if you ask anybody on that panel, they say the show isn't going to do good without Kenny in the fold. What. What is his role evolved into on that panel?
- [118:15]
Brian Curtis
When you have Barkley chewing scenery, you have to have a center of gravity or the show doesn't work. You have to have somebody who can take the piss out of Barkley and that Barkley will let take the piss out of him. A Kenny, to me is all of those things, right? If it were just the Charles Barkley show with, you know, a point guard, you know, setting him up, I just don't think it would work like that because it just, it has to have it. And so that to me is. Is Kenny Smith. I mean, besides the analysis, besides Kenny's pictures and EJ is another one. I mean, it's funny to me because it took me a long time to really appreciate his talent. And this is somebody who spends way too much of my life thinking about broadcasters. Like he's different than just about every other studio host. You know, much less blow dried, much less TV affect voice, that kind of thing. It's much more deferential. He's much happier to kind of lurk in the background a little bit and spread the ball around. You know, he's definitely a pass first point guard is in that job. But I think it does similar things to what Kenny does. Right. It brings the vibe into the right place to use the word you guys were using earlier. You know, it creates a center of gravity so that it's not just, you know, Charles Barkley just out there saying stuff, Shaq out there saying stuff, right. It's all part of that mix. It's like when we look at any basketball team, it's like, what does that guy do that, you know, two guard who doesn't have really average many points, but plays good defense. That's the guy. It's kind of like Kenny Smith the player in that way.
- [119:42]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. And the other thing about like Ernie is, and I want to go to Joel with this question is he was. When I first earned. My first reaction to Ernie being white was the same reaction that I had when I found out Robin Thick was white after loss without you came out, came out for a minute. He was like, oh, wait, wait, what? What?
- [120:00]
Joel Anderson
Oh, man. Well, yeah, the wife thing didn't. Didn't help either. It's like he's married to Paula Pan.
- [120:05]
Logan Murdoch
But yeah, he was to qualify. No, but in that instance, right. He is definitely. When we talk about the NBA players in the NBA life, it's majority black league. And if you are going to be in spaces as a white man in these types of spaces, there is a level of balance that you have to have. Right. And I don't necessarily agree with the, with everything that Ernie has done and said just in that chair, but by and large he has been a really great ally to the people that he, his co workers are by extension this league. What do you think that he is. How do you think that he has been over the last few years during his tenure and navigating those waters? Right. Because he's also navigated Mike Brown and. And all of these different issues that have come for George Floyd. And with all these things as a host in this environment over the last decade, what do you think that has made him kind of stand out from other guys that are in his position not only in terms of the studio show, but also, you know, him being a white man.
- [121:12]
Joel Anderson
Well, so I want to say this and Brian you know, kind of kind of touched on. He's not a buttoned up guy. Like, you know, he's sort of seems like he's, you know, a professional broadcaster, but not necessarily a professional broadcaster. Right. Like that he went, although he can.
- [121:26]
Logan Murdoch
Be, if he wants to be, like, he can't do that. And when it's required, he can do it.
- [121:29]
Joel Anderson
But we were talking about Tony Reali on Press Box last week, about people whose fundamental decency seems to sort of come through the screen and you look at them and you're like, oh, that seems like a really good dude, you know, and like, I wouldn't mind being in a room with him and talking to him and, you know, like, if I, like, that's the kind of person that if he called you to console you after something bad happened, like, that seems like he'd be really good at that. That feels like Ernie Johnson to me. And I think that's a big part of it with him, that he just seems like a fundamentally decent guy and he understands that he's not the star of the show. Like, that's why, like, I'm not saying Bob Costas couldn't be Ernie Johnson in this role. Right. But it seems like he's totally comfortable letting those guys be the stars and making fun of himself when necessary. And also, I mean, man, he's able to make fun of them back. And I don't know that a lot of players. And that says something about how they feel about him, right? Because a lot of NBA players and professional athletes is like, you can't talk to me because you haven't done any. You don't know.
- [122:32]
Logan Murdoch
Are you saying players or NBA players and athletes are sensitive, Joe? Are you telling me that. Are you breaking that news?
- [122:37]
Howard Beck
You know, every.
- [122:38]
Joel Anderson
Every now and again, you might hear from one, you know, I mean, you know, about how things. Things you said about him, and they may hold a grudge against you, you know, but they are willing to accept that from him. And I think that says a lot about what they think of him and how comfortable he is in a largely black world. I mean, that's the thing, man. Like, it's funny because anytime you ever. I'm going. I'm going to go ahead and say, anytime you ever meet a really cool white guy in the world, you're just like, oh, he must play basketball. Like what you are, you know.
- [123:12]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. I thought Howard hooped.
- [123:14]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, right. I'm saying, you know. You know, and it's like, oh, okay. Like, he, you know, he's been on those buses, right? And so that's kind of what Ernie gives to me. And like, everybody can't do that. And I mean, again, they have plenty of good hosts that are out there doing that stuff. But you can tell that the way they. The respect that the players have for him, that also comes through as well. And so, yeah, like, you know, even though he said he voted for John Kasich, I don't. Nobody ever really held it against him because he just seems like a fundamentally decent guy. Is that right, Brian? Is that because we were coming. We were trying to come up with a list of guys, and we were talking about Ernie, and I was like, oh, yeah, Ernie seems like one of those dudes. And maybe the cancer era maybe added a little humanity to his story as well, too. But as soon as we started talking about him, I was like, oh, yeah, no, he's one of those guys, too.
- [124:03]
Brian Curtis
Totally. I think that's a list. It's Reali. It's SVP over on ESPN. I think Ernie's in that group. 100%.
- [124:09]
Logan Murdoch
Where does he put in the pantheon of play by play, not play by play shows, but pre and post game show, whatever his, his tier is. Where is he at, Brian? Whatever place you want to put him. Where does he belong? In the tiers of announcers that we have all known and love from not only pre and post game shows with sports in general.
- [124:30]
Brian Curtis
Yeah, I mean, I think he's, he's certainly right up there. Again, like I said, it's a different talent because we're just thinking of pre and post. You know, you're thinking of like a Chris Fowler. You're thinking of Costas on NFL Live back in the day, Brent Musburger, who's about, you know, a million degrees away from Ernie Johnson on the air. One thing about Ernie too is his dad was a broadcaster at Turner. And when I found second generation broadcasters, of which there are a bunch, one thing they almost all have in common is this calm about television, this just way of being on the air and not feeling like they're on the air at all times. They're not standing on their hind legs. And I just think he'll probably be underrated. Even though he's on the best post pregame studio show of all time. I think he will just because of the magnetism of Barkley and the just side how big Barkley is. But man, he's right up there for me. Absolutely.
- [125:24]
Logan Murdoch
I don't want, I don't want this conversation to end necessarily, but you know, our producers have to do what they got to do. So I'm going to leave the, the, I'm going to go down the panel and I'm going to ask you guys. I'm gonna start with Howard. I actually got a twofold question. What's you gonna, what's your best memory of it, of the show, and what's going to be your lasting impression of this version of the show?
- [125:46]
Howard Beck
Best memory of the show? I don't like. I, I can't narrow it down to one. I, I appreciate like the, the comfort food of knowing, especially at this time of year that when we get to the playoffs, like I actually want to see the gone fishing stuff. Right. I can't wait to see who else is going to be photoshopped into the graphic and to see the guys put on their goofy fishing hats and their fake fishing poles. Like to me, if you like, had to boil down the charm of this show and why we all love it in a single snapshot, it might just be one of those. Right. And you know, it's Coming. You know what it is? It's a little cheesy. They've. I like the way they've, like, amped it up over the years where like, now there's like fake water around them. It looks like they're actually on the front of a yacht. Like, how do they do that? That looks like there's real water there. That's fucking cool. Like, they care about this shit enough that even the goofiest shit they do, they're like going, like, how can we make this, like, even more convincing? Like we're actually fishing. So I love that about it. Like, there's an earnestness that's going along that's overlaid with the absolute, you know, goofiness of it. So there's that. And then the second part of the question was just this version. What, What's.
- [126:53]
Logan Murdoch
What's going to be your lasting impression of this version of the show?
- [126:55]
Howard Beck
I don't know. It might be the same answer. I. Listen, I'm just going to say on a personal level, like, I just appreciate how welcoming and accommodating these guys have always been. When I was with Turner, when I was not with Turner, doesn't even matter. Like, hanging out with them in the trailer at All Star Weekend in San Francisco, you know, a few minutes with each guy on the record and then a bunch of time just shooting the. With all of them. Like, they're always just so, so welcoming. And that goes for Nate Smelts and Tony Moriali in pr. That goes for, like, even when I was working for Bleach Report and David Levy was running Turner Sports, he was always like, for, for a big time executive who's like 50 steps removed from me, was just a, just a normal dude when you're, when you're hanging out, shooting the shit. Scooter Vertino, like all these guys, like, I always just appreciated again, whether I was working with them or not. That has always been that ecosystem, that crew, that company has always just been very welcoming and fun to work with, fun to hang out with. So that's, that's my lasting thing, Joel.
- [127:53]
Joel Anderson
Okay, so it's, it's my, my favorite memory first man. There's a couple, so. And I, I, So there's definitely the night that Chris Paul and the Clippers tried to get into the fight with, with the rocket and they cloud. They were like, police. Chris Paul's trying to beat me up. Like, that was, that was hilarious. Any. Anything Chuck says about the women in San Antonio. And look, I mean, I will. It's. It's it's sexist, it sizes, you know, it's fat, phobic, whatever. I, I acknowledge that. But also I like that he digs in on that also. You know, I'm a Rockets fan, so any, any, anybody that wants to dig in San Antonio is good with me in terms of the lasting impressions. You know what I'm always going to be thinking about, I'm going to be thinking about them making fun of Shaq because I think it really just gets to the bottom of that show. It's just like they, they, like, Shaq.
- [128:53]
Logan Murdoch
Is.
- [128:55]
Joel Anderson
The most dominant basketball player of my lifetime. I know you can say whatever you want about Michael J. You know, that dude was incredible. And it, and one of, theoretically one of the scarier people. Like, nobody wants to, with Shaq. Like, nobody wants to get into a.
- [129:09]
Logan Murdoch
Fight except Chuck, who like dipped him in, in, in standard definition television.
- [129:14]
Joel Anderson
That is the thing. That's the thing. So I'm saying, so, like, they, they are so willing to take the steam out of that dude, you know what I mean? Like, who else has the credibility or the will, the courage and just sort of like, I don't give a shit. Like, we're just having fun up here. And I think that speaks a lot to like, the chemistry that they have and just like the fun they were willing to have up there. Like, I just love that part they made. It's a testament to them that they made Shaq seem like we're, we're doing these tributes to that show and everything, and we're like, oh yeah, Shaq was a part of it. And it was like, man, Shaq really ain't said a lot more since he got on there. But the fact that they were willing to welcome him in and make him a part of that show and still have fun with him, like, that kind of says a lot to me. That's the kind of stuff that I'm.
- [129:58]
Logan Murdoch
Brian, I have a bonus question for you after the two questions that I gave you. Like, how long? So it's, it's. What's your best memory? What's the lasting impression? And how long does this last beyond where we're at right now? How much time do we. Do we give this show?
- [130:13]
Brian Curtis
Well, I will add, you know, guys who are not online reading tweets on the air as a just special highlight for me, that always really worked as did something that is like actually a terrible post game tradition, which is guys in the studio interviewing the star of the game on the court. Usually pretty miserable, but it really worked with inside because it felt special and it felt like they were, you know, laying hands on them and, you know, being like, yes, you had a good game. You are, you know, I Charles Barkley, I Shaq, we are recognizing you as to have done something special tonight that was always cool, lasting memory as, as a show that was just more of a hang that was great without seemingly trying to be great in a very concentrated, you know, television way, but was better than anything else. How long is it going to be like that? Well, you know, I know Chuck will have already threatened to retire seven times by the time we finish this podcast because that's what he likes to do. But I think the thing is they like being on television. They like having their say. Now they're going to be on the network that has the finals every year. So think about that. Right? You know, as long as those Disney checks clear, I'm sure we'll have some more negotiation drama again. We probably have already had some over the last 45 minutes or so, but as long as that goes, I again, I almost, almost. I almost, you know, bet against the tide here. I think it's going to go on longer than, than we even think it is because I think they like that job. They're going to be able to do it their way and it's going to just sail into the future.
- [131:49]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [131:50]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. Inside the NBA, man. It's, it's, it's going on, but it'll never be the same. Thank you guys so much, man. Brian Curtis, Joel Anderson, Howard motherfucking Beck. Thank you guys for coming on, man. I really appreciate it.
- [132:05]
Joel Anderson
Anytime, brother. Anytime.
- [132:06]
Logan Murdoch
We will see you guys next week for Tuesday vibes and who, who the hell knows what's the NBA is going to look like by then? So tap in. Ah, all the shits by.
- [132:22]
Howard Beck
Foreign.
- [132:27]
Logan Murdoch
Years and older and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-G GAMBLER or visit rghelp.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chet in Connecticut or visit MD Gamblinghouse in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.