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Thunder Punch Their Finals Ticket. Can Any West Team Stop Them From Here? | Group Chat
01:12:42
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- [00:01]
Justin Barrier
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- [02:28]
Rob Mahoney
Absolutely. I'm I'm waiting guys. I'm right here ready to be toweled up. I will be singing your praises and then stop on a dime to talk about how immature you're being in the same breath.
- [02:37]
Justin Barrier
Unfortunately, that was probably the highlight of tonight's Game five victorious win for the Oklahoma City Thunder punch the finals ticket. The Wolves scored nine points in the first quarter and it was pretty much over from there. I guess we could go through the Usman Jang minutes if you really want to because at this point I feel like we've got a real robust scouting report. But wise, this one seemed pretty much in hand after the big win in game four. Just seems like that carried over into this one.
- [03:05]
Big Waz
Yeah, there was no fight whatsoever from the Timberwolves. Got to give it to okc. They came out and took it deadly serious and played like they, their lives depended on it, particularly on defense as, as they have essentially the entire playoffs at this point. But I don't know, this Wolves team seemed like a team that had their bags packed for Cabo or the Bahamas or wherever guys south of France, wherever guys are vacationing these days. These guys had their swim trunks nicely folded, you know, tank tops ready, flip flops, all of that, the portable speaker, you know, it's all, it's all packed and ready for the vacation that these guys about to go on.
- [03:53]
Justin Barrier
Can I, can I follow up on that real quickly? Can we do the bag packs power rankings? Like who was most ready to hit the jet and go straight to Cancun after this one?
- [04:03]
Big Waz
On the Wolf side, I mean, Julius Randle definitely was one of them. And I gotta say, aunt Edwards, like, you know, I'm talking to some of my group chats and guys like, yo, come on man, like they're loading up on the guy. There's only so much he can do. I'm like, fair but like, nah, no excuses. Play like a champion. Like, I'm sorry they like there was a lot of turnovers dribbling off his foot, like he just wasn't locked in. Obviously I think the best defenses are going to make it way difficult on him. But guess what, man, if you're supposed to be a superstar and one of the best players in the NBA, you got to overcome that kind of stuff, man. You got to make the help more predictable, clunkier. Like you got to be smarter whenever, you know, teams decide that they're going to load up on you. And I don't think Ant did a good job of that tonight. Didn't do a good job of it basically all series long. And so yeah, I think Ant was super disappointing this, this game and probably this entire series.
- [05:04]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, he wasn't good enough. And it wasn't just the turnovers you're talking about was it was like trying to make basic one pass away routine passes and just like getting Picked off. That's. That's not it. That's not what you want from any player on your team in this situation. It's certainly not what you want from your Superstars. Ant wasn't good enough. Julius Randle wasn't good enough. The Timberwolves were just not precise enough as a team. They are not precise enough as a team to beat a defense like this and break it down consistently over seven games. They're going to have explosive moments. We've seen how high the Wolves highs can be. They just didn't have it in them to meticulously work the Thunder defense over and over and over and over. And frankly, in their defense, I'm not sure who does.
- [05:44]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I guess on the flip side of this, if you're going to play devil's advocate for the Timberwolves, it's that the Thunder seemed to be growing as the playoffs go on. I feel like they're almost closing in on their final, like, complete form to the point where in that game four seemed like SGA, Chet, JDub, all were working in concert in a way that they hadn't before. Like, Chet in particular had had some moments where he would be like, he would kind of coast for a quarter or two, then pop late, mostly on the defensive end. But offensively, it just seemed like all three were optimized in the way they weren't earlier in the playoffs. 95 points in that game four together tonight, 75 points. And they all had like all around games that just looked so complete and so like, damn, Woz. It just feels like the Thunder just keep getting better and better. Just like even when we. Whatever obstacle gets thrown out at them this postseason.
- [06:33]
Big Waz
Yeah, I think that was the coolest thing about the Denver series, honestly, is that Denver made these guys work their asses off, you know, had them flummox with a zone. Now, like, it feels like if you throw a zone at okc, you're making a huge mistake. Right. Made them figure out like, different ways of guarding Jokic to the point where in game seven, they're like, screw it, we got Alex Caruso for his ass. Like, they just keep coming up with answers to the tests. And, you know, by the time they get to Minnesota, it's like, all right, we've seen zones, we've seen, you know, superstars go crazy, and then we come back and we make adjustments and, you know, we've seen our guys go through streaky moments in terms of getting left wide open. And, you know, we're staying the course this time. And I Just think, yeah, going through the Nuggets specifically, like that test was such a hard one for them and them coming out of it. And, you know, not just some of the tactical stuff that Denver did and forced them to adjust to, it's these guys having to execute down the stretch of like three fourth quarters in a row and actually doing it and now understanding and having the confidence that there's no situational basketball that they're going to be flummoxed by. I think that was, you know, a big deal, man. And, you know, granted, they almost lost that freaking series, right?
- [07:56]
Rob Mahoney
They did.
- [07:56]
Big Waz
Like, that's the thing about the playoffs. Like they. They went seven games and there were more than a few games that they came back in the fourth quarter to win. You know, this could have been them losing in the second round all over again. But because they basically had the grit to overcome now, you know, the skies is the limit for what these guys can do.
- [08:16]
Rob Mahoney
What I'm hearing from both of you, Justin, in terms of the triangulation of their stars, was in terms of that grit and like forcing their way through really competitive games. Announced by the Thunder, officially making the NBA Finals tonight. It feels like the Thunder era is. Is officially here. Finally officially here. 68 win, team 12 and four in the playoffs. The reigning MVP, an all time defense, one of the younger rosters in the league. This is a team clearly built to be good for a long time. It's also a team that we've been kind of waiting to take these incremental steps. And W for you specifically, have the Thunder shown you, Wozny Lambre, all the. All that you need to see? You've been a skeptic at various points. Are you satisfied with the Thunder experience?
- [08:59]
Big Waz
Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, I think this flip for me was definitely Game 5 of the Nuggets series where they just have a monster fourth quarter that could have easily gone the other way against them. And it's like, holy smokes. Like, these guys are down three, two, and now, you know, they got to win two in a row against a team that's just beat them up a bunch of times. And the fact that they flipped the paradigm in that series, yeah, they go on and lose to Denver in Game 6 and have to come back and show improve in game seven. But game five of that series, particularly the way that it happened, the way they had to be super clutch in a pivotal game like that, basically flips the series on its head. That's when I was like, all right, man, the Thunder are Here. And, you know, I know a lot of people are going to be like, oh, the Wolves were a seventh seed, and blah, blah, blah. I love how we play these games. But the truth of the matter is, people were calling the Lakers a Finals team, okay? They beat the hell out of that team. Okay, look, the Lakers obviously weren't that good, but that's not what we were saying before the Wolves made them look horrible. Golden State, I think, would have probably gave them a hell of a series. It sure looked like it in game one before Steph tweaked his hammy. All right, cool. You can say what you want to say about that, but also, this is the same team that we said owned the Nuggets. Like, the Nuggets damn near beat okc.
- [10:26]
Rob Mahoney
If they.
- [10:27]
Big Waz
If they played the Nuggets, many people would have been like, why shouldn't they beat the Nuggets? Like, I'm not going to sit here and poo poo what OKC has done. Like, they've beating people's brains in. I'm sorry. Like, they have my respect now. They got to do it in the Finals.
- [10:44]
Justin Barrier
We're all just saying shit. You know, we were saying shit in the first round saying that the Lakers might win the Finals. We were saying shit in the second round, like, Denver might win the Finals, Wolves might win the Finals. We're all just the Clippers.
- [10:56]
Rob Mahoney
They all might.
- [10:58]
Justin Barrier
Yes. We all have to consider these possibilities. We have so many podcasting hours to fill. I can't imagine being on ESPN to the point where you have to talk about, like, whether or not a guy's home life matters, about whether he's ready for the moment. Like, there's just a lot going on simultaneously. So I get it. But I think the through line for all of us was that the Thunder looked dominant pretty much from the start of the season, even after losing their centers, and they look dominant at the right on the precipice of the Finals right now.
- [11:26]
Rob Mahoney
Do you have a take on that, though, Justin, on the state of the family man in the NBA vis a vis the decline of the nuclear family in America?
- [11:33]
Big Waz
Yeah, exactly. Now, America.
- [11:39]
Justin Barrier
I think everyone should be opening to a lot of different opportunities, is what I say. That's what I. That's what I've learned in my time here in the Pacific.
- [11:47]
Rob Mahoney
I respect that about you.
- [11:49]
Justin Barrier
Opportunistic. That's what we say this time of year.
- [11:51]
Rob Mahoney
Well, the Thunder have certainly been that. You know, they have taken every opportunity in front of them. They forced quite a few. The fine, you Know as far as like drilling down on why this series went the way it did. Total turnovers in this series, 87 for the Wolves, 67 for the Thunder. Points off of those turnovers, 108 points for the Thunder off of Wolves. Wolves turnovers. 77 from Minnesota, 31 point swing on the turnovers alone in this series. That's kind of the whole thing and it's just, it's impossible to watch OKC play and not think. At least for me this just seems like the worst team to possibly play against. Like the absolute like games from hell are the games where you can't even get the ball inside the three point line because the pressure and the ball hawks are just, they're everywhere. It feels like every pass someone could descend on it. And the Thunder have that effect on you psychologically. I thought it was really telling in this game that not only are they picking off passes, not only are they catching Julius Randle from the blind side. Like Nas Reed is dribbling off his own foot. Like they are just in these guys heads to a degree that I think is self destructive at a certain point. For the Wolves.
- [12:56]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I don't necessarily believe in this concept of a leap. Right. Like I kind of think that humans aren't a fixed asset and things just fluctuate all the time. Like teams that we thought were just going to like all of a sudden go from this point to the next point, it really like continues down that continuum. It's all like. It's a roller coaster, man.
- [13:15]
Rob Mahoney
It's a flux. So you don't believe in actual human progress, just sinusoidal fluctuation?
- [13:24]
Justin Barrier
I do in broad sense, but perhaps not without some fluctuations along the way. It's not a clear A to B. Right. There's going to be some jostling in between. But I have to say like in the midst of this particular run, it's been hard to argue the contrary. Especially because of the way they dispatch the Wolves here, but also the way that like even home court has become advantage for them. So like after that big triumphant game four, they give the best performance probably I've seen from this core haymaker for haymarker. You would think like oh, maybe there's a letdown coming. They came out and just knocked the shit out of the Wolves from minute one in that game to the point where yeah, Nas fell over like twice within the first three minutes. Yeah, overall home court for the Thunder, which I think is going to be a big thing going forward wise. Like they have lost one game so far in OKC in the playoffs. That was the OT game against Denver, Game two in which Gordon hit the three to send it into overtime. So like good luck to Indiana whomever comes next. Because that's like another advantage that we're piling on top of all the progress they're making.
- [14:29]
Big Waz
Yeah, I mean, Trey Young said, they're a lot louder than msg. So I, I believe in the home.
- [14:35]
Rob Mahoney
Court son of Oklahoma. Who who better to believe than Trey Young?
- [14:39]
Justin Barrier
I do love that arena.
- [14:40]
Rob Mahoney
That arena rocks an incredible playoff crowd genuinely as. As have most of the for the Final Four. This has been a great group of home crowds that are just like that elevate exponentially in the playoffs. Right. Like Minnesota. That's been a hotbed of disgusting basketball for so long. They have just seized on the opportunity with this team being good. And I want, I want to say this about the Wolves too. Like they disappointed tonight in a huge way. They did not show up. Basically everyone except maybe Terence Shannon just like did not do their job to an adequate degree. I also wanted to make sure we acknowledge that even with that being said, this is a really cool run for the Wolves. This is still a good result. Like getting to the Western Conference finals and back to back seasons is an incredible accomplishment. And we're seeing, you know, where the limitations are for this group, which is a different one from last year after reshuffling Kat for Julius Randle and Dante DiVincenzo and all the other kind of smaller moves along the way. But you've seen the highs. Like we've seen how incredible this team can be, how formidable their defense can be. Some of the, you know, the growth, although it's not necessarily in a straight line that Anthony Edwards has made over the course of these playoffs. He's just not quite up to the Thunder defensive standard yet. And that's okay. But I'm still really impressed by this Wolves run.
- [15:51]
Big Waz
Yeah. I mean, to get back what Justin was saying earlier about leaps and stuff, I think, you know, so long as Jalen Williams the wing and Shay and Chet are on this team, it'll be hard for anybody to convince me that they won't be a threat to make the NBA Finals and win it. Right. To me that's a leap. Like that's a big deal. Right. And I thought we were getting there with Dallas last year, but like Minnesota, it's funny cause I think OKC Presti deserves a lot of credit for. All right, cool. Like nobody knew Shay was going to turn into the best player in the NBA. But like you know, drafting two guys and Jalen Williams and Chet, that. That seem like franchise cornerstones and you know, now they got a bunch of picks so they could always fill out the roster for cheap. That's a nice big deal. Like they're never going to be able to do a Hartenstein move again. But whatever. They. They might not have to. You know, I. And, and look, they haven't won the championship yet. Whatever. Minnesota's been to the conference finals two years in a row. Like, what are we saying is the core of that success?
- [17:10]
Rob Mahoney
Anthony Edwards. Rudy Gobert too, I think is part of that core, although a more complicated piece.
- [17:15]
Justin Barrier
Are we saying that I think the better the defense is, is like would they have been better off keeping Cat around and having a Cat Edwards core going forward versus what they did, which is opened up options in order to figure things out on the fly. I ultimately kind of defer to that one, if only because we're seeing kind of the messy situation get with Cat where he's so awesome at times and he was great this season. Probably his best all around performance this regular season. He's going to make all or he did make all NBA for that reason. But you get into this situation where it's like, oh, do we go double big? Do we have him at center and just basically punt defense? I think once you get to this level of competition, you're going to keep finding yourself in that.
- [17:54]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think it's tough with the bigs that they have. You know, not just Kat presents that problem. But yeah, Julius Randle kind of sometimes does too. Nas Reed certainly does too. These tethers of like, do we need to go inside or out? Like do we need to prioritize offense or defense? Do we need ultimately like to get more actual playmaking on the floor? You know, Ant did not deliver in this game and certainly did not exert himself in a creative capacity to a really impressive degree. It's also just like really hard for him to do anything against this Thunder defense. And some of that is because the secondary creation you're either going with Nasrid, who we said has been dribbling off his foot in this game, Julius Randle, who turned the ball over a ton throughout this series, or Mike Conley who's just outclassed athletically when you play a team like the Thunder just like does not have a lot he can offer off the dribble. Those are like the next best creative options for the Wolves. Once you get past Ant or you get into like Nikhil Alexander Walker Dante DiVincenzo territory. And those guys had great moments in the series, but you don't want them dominating the ball. It's going to be hard for the Wolves to get past this point so long as Julius Randle, even at his best, is like the second best player on this team. I just think they're going to keep bumping up against this limitation unless they happen to meet opponents in the playoffs who can't exploit some of the inattention in his game. You know, some of the fact that he can be a little sloppy with the ball, that he can get a little wild with his passes, that he can get a little loose with his dribble. It's just you can't have two stars that both do that. And Ant does that, but he earns it with everything else. Julius Randle does it. He's very productive. But we've seen even in this run, kind of what the cost of some of that productivity could be.
- [19:26]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Who's his running mate? Because as we've seen, even if we're going not going to a big.
- [19:31]
Big Waz
According to Rob Mahoney, that's the problem.
- [19:34]
Rob Mahoney
Even I'm not going that far.
- [19:35]
Big Waz
He's the second pillar of.
- [19:37]
Justin Barrier
I think it's Jalen McDaniels. And unfortunately, as much progress as he made this postseason offensively, he's just not going to be that type of guy that you could turn to as a number two. And so, like, they almost have everything else for figure it out. They have the depth. We could talk about that later when we assemble the war room, because they're gonna have to make some pretty key decisions this offseason, but they have just a lot of stuff in order to supplement. I think one of the big reasons they made it this far is that they go eight deep. And so it's, like, nice to have a Dante DiVincenzo. Everyone would love that player, but unfortunately, like, if he's like, a guy you're counting on, then it gets a little iffy. If anything, like, he seemed out of whack pretty much this entire postseason. Just didn't seem consistent enough. Yeah, I almost wonder if he's just, like, used to only playing 40 minutes a game in the postseason that actually, like, downsizing to, like, 20 just completely threw him off. But you're right.
- [20:22]
Rob Mahoney
He's got to get the lather up before he can hit shots. You know, you. You really got to get it going.
- [20:26]
Justin Barrier
Lather scorer. Yeah. So it's. It's weird. They almost have everything figured out except for that like one number two pillar next to Ant. And I. I don't know how they get that, because that seems like the hardest question of all.
- [20:39]
Rob Mahoney
It's going to be tricky. I mean, it's been tricky for the Thunder. Have wrestled with that question, right. Of like, is, is J Dub gonna be that gu them or not? And he has proven. I think you can go kind of up and down their lineup and up and down their roster, probably even in the broader organization, if you wanted to, and say, like, how did these guys kind of prove it this postseason? Mark Dagnal out. Coach has had incredible coaching moments throughout these playoffs. Shea has solved, as we've addressed, like, all of the puzzles that have been presented him throughout these rounds, all of the defenses, all of the coverages that an MVP would face, double or not, zone or not, every kind of variation thereof. And I think has ultimately found himself through it, better for it, more evolved, even even more creative than he's ever been before. Jalen Williams has established himself as that second star, has had tremendous moments in this series in particular, delivering offensively and defensively. I think for Chad, the question was like, can he show up in every matchup?
- [21:30]
Big Waz
Right.
- [21:31]
Rob Mahoney
Does he have a way against big teams? Does he have a way against small teams? And he's found ways to do that. The supporting cast has hit all the shots they need to hit, has defended their asses off. It's like everyone for the Thunder is delivered. I think you could say that for the Wolves, for certain members of the roster, for certain. Certain portions. Otherwise, it's like there's. There's gaps here, there's gaps there. There's areas that they still need to improve, and that's just reality in the NBA.
- [21:55]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Before we turn our attention to the Wolves in their off season, I have three lists for you guys, all involving Oklahoma City, because I had a whole lot of time in order to dig deep in the crates here, let's do historical perspective first. So teams that have had two separate cores making it to the NBA Finals over the past quarter century. So since the year two, 2000, these teams have had one core, and then no other players from that team have made it back to the Finals.
- [22:28]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [22:29]
Justin Barrier
We could do it as a quiz. Do you guys have.
- [22:32]
Rob Mahoney
I got some guesses. The Miami Heater won.
- [22:34]
Justin Barrier
Miami are one. Yep. They had three. So Shaq Wade, Heatles, and then Jimmy. You could pick either the Heatles or Shaq Wade. I believe they're the quickest turnaround to hedles to Jimmy, and obviously a lot of that Was free agency.
- [22:47]
Rob Mahoney
Are the other two. Dallas and the Lakers.
- [22:50]
Justin Barrier
Dallas and Lakers are up there. So obviously Shaq, Kobe, Kobe, Powell, LeBron and AD. And then Mavs last year in the 2011 team. There's one more. In addition to the Thunder being the new.
- [23:02]
Big Waz
I'm looking at the answers because I didn't know it was a quiz. I was looking. I'm just looking at the freaking rundown, thinking it was just a rundown situation.
- [23:15]
Justin Barrier
It's an obvious team, though.
- [23:17]
Rob Mahoney
The Spurs.
- [23:19]
Justin Barrier
No, they don't technically count. Just because Duncan was there for. For all.
- [23:22]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, the Celtics, yeah.
- [23:24]
Big Waz
Ubuntu, of course. Celtics.
- [23:26]
Rob Mahoney
Well. But the spirit of Ubuntu was there for both titles, so I don't think that one accounts.
- [23:30]
Justin Barrier
It's there for all of. So that is five teams in total who have made it back. So this is rarefied air. Now, technically, if the Pacers make it, and we expect them to at this point, as we're recording this on Wednesday night, they would make it as well. Just because 2000 was the Pacers.
- [23:46]
Big Waz
Reggie Miller, Jermaine O' Neal was the best player on the team, but Jalen Rose was probably the second best player on that team, which is just kind of insane to even considered this.
- [24:00]
Rob Mahoney
This game we saw tonight had some unspeakable violence in it. Just in terms of how dominant one team was over the other. I gotta say, some of those Pacers teams that made the finals and then had to guard Shaq, it didn't go great. You know, like, even at the latest stages of competition, things can get very, very ugly.
- [24:17]
Justin Barrier
So six franchises, though, who have done that. Just. It's crazy that the Thunder have been able to reboot so quickly. Like, you just don't see that that often. And, like, this could be the start of something with a Thunder. Okay, so that's.
- [24:28]
Rob Mahoney
I'd be curious too, like, how many of those teams we'd have to think about have the same executive for both of those runs. All right. The same GM or the same person running basketball ops like Pat Riley would presumably be one.
- [24:40]
Big Waz
Yeah.
- [24:41]
Rob Mahoney
Dallas turned over.
- [24:42]
Big Waz
No, Mitch Cupcheck did not.
- [24:45]
Justin Barrier
I guess.
- [24:46]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. So I guess. I guess Sam Presti and Pat Riley are the only two on that list who's like, run the same way fundamentally by the same people the whole time.
- [24:54]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Doesn't happen often. Next one. Biggest off season trades. So from this past off season, I guess I sent you guys a list if you want to peruse that in the chat there. So I think obviously we would say the Cat For Randall Dante would have to be number one, considering that it spurred two separate teams into that. I mean, I see a lot of people poo pooing the Sabonis Halliburton, like, win, win trade idea and like, rightfully so, because it seems like Sabonis is going to get shot, but actually might not actually get trade because nobody wants them. This one. It seems like everybody won, Everyone caught what they wanted. So I have to say that that is number one. But after that, I gotta wonder if Caruso for Giddy is looking pretty good for the Thunder, considering what happened.
- [25:41]
Rob Mahoney
I just want to say I've never seen was so delighted, Justin, as when you said that nobody wants to Montus bonus.
- [25:48]
Big Waz
I've been saying this for three years, but whatever it is what it is.
- [25:53]
Justin Barrier
Seems like a nice guy.
- [25:54]
Rob Mahoney
He does. He seems like a very nice guy.
- [25:56]
Justin Barrier
Like a girl, according to that documentary that I watched two episodes of.
- [25:59]
Rob Mahoney
Congratulations to both of them. So. So are you seeing. I mean, obviously the Caruso part of this is huge. I assume, Justin, you're also saying the Giddy part of this is of great consequence.
- [26:09]
Justin Barrier
Oh, yeah. I. I think I'm looking at more from like, one side of this, like what had the biggest impact on the season and maybe even going forward. I think the other options. Bridges, obviously, to the Knicks.
- [26:20]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [26:20]
Justin Barrier
Abdia to the Trailblazers. The new star.
- [26:23]
Rob Mahoney
We see you sneaking it in.
- [26:25]
Justin Barrier
Dejante Murray for the Dyson Daniels trade, which is probably now the Dyson Daniels trade. And then Tim Hardaway Jr. For Grimes. Chris Dunn signing trade. DeRozan to the Kings, Clay Thompson to the maps.
- [26:37]
Rob Mahoney
It's got to be Crusoe, I think.
- [26:39]
Big Waz
I think Bridges is a more important player for the Knicks, but the Knicks aren't the odds on favor to dominate and win the NBA championship. Right. So maybe the Caruso is the more important move because particularly against Denver, man. And again, you know, Denver might end up being the most competitive series that they had this postseason. Caruso made so many huge, timely buckets, so many threes this guy made that if he wasn't hitting those shots, it changes the geometry of the court. And now you don't have one of your best defenders out there and makes you way more vulnerable to this Denver offense. And so I think the Caruso thing can't be overstated. He's been incredible this postseason. I think one of the questions coming in was like, are him and Lou Dort going to make shots?
- [27:39]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [27:39]
Big Waz
You know, in order to keep their defensive integrity as the most amazing defense in the NBA, they're not that without Lou Dord and Caruso doing what they do. And so you know, him being able to stay on the floor while being a. Because he could be a consistent shooter. Incredible.
- [27:57]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yeah, he's like well over 40% for these playoffs from three. Obviously a good playmaker, obviously a good transition player. But I think you're right to point out Bridges too was like those two guys. Not. I don't think either of these teams, the Thunder or the Knicks would be in these positions. And I say that just like to advance even this far without those guys. And the luxury of Alex Caruso is not just guarding Nicola Jokic in the second round. It's that you get to play him bigger than his size in this series. And Isaiah Hardenstein plays like 16, 17 minutes a game by the end of it. Like he's. He's just functionally not an important part of the Thunder rotation because of the matchup. Alex Crusoe is always going to be an important part of the matchup. There's always someone for him to guard, big or small. There's always someone for him to chase or hound or help away from a player like that. I mean, I don't understand why the Bulls traded him away the way they did for the price that they did. But the Thunder are reaping all the benefits, that's for sure.
- [28:48]
Justin Barrier
I think the Bulls are doing okay.
- [28:50]
Rob Mahoney
Are they?
- [28:50]
Justin Barrier
Much. I think Caruso might fall into the Josh Hart All Stars where it's like regular season three point shooting. It's like. But I would bet my life on that guy. If you gave him an open look in a playoff game, it's like him. Nemhardt, I guess, has to be on the roster. There's anybody else we're missing?
- [29:08]
Big Waz
Well.
- [29:10]
Rob Mahoney
Nice. Smith has gone from like, you know, a pretty good, very solid three point shoot in the regular season to, I don't know, Steph Curry's like what? Whatever goes that step. Curry channels to be. That's who Aaron D. Smith is. Yeah.
- [29:23]
Justin Barrier
So I would probably rank those cat, Caruso, Bridges. Sounds like you guys might fluctuate on one too.
- [29:30]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, but I think. I think Caruso and Bridges are in the same bracket ultimately.
- [29:34]
Justin Barrier
Abdia right after that.
- [29:36]
Rob Mahoney
I mean to indulge you. Yes.
- [29:40]
Justin Barrier
Last list. I have the most popular dog names in Oklahoma City, 2025. Is it Shea, Chet, Lou Caruso or Nick Gallo?
- [29:54]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, Nick Gallo is a great name.
- [29:55]
Justin Barrier
For a dog, but towels over the dog.
- [29:59]
Big Waz
You guys are dog people. You got a tell me the etiquette Here. Because I would feel like it's disrespectful to name a dog after somebody you like.
- [30:08]
Justin Barrier
I know. I know this sounds mildly racist, but I promise this is great.
- [30:14]
Big Waz
I'm like, this is. This is out of my cultural depth.
- [30:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [30:17]
Justin Barrier
There's a lot of kimbers in Connecticut based off of that run.
- [30:21]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [30:21]
Big Waz
Okay. So, like, it's an homage, really, to somebody that you love. Whereas for me, I'm like, you're calling me a dog.
- [30:28]
Rob Mahoney
You know, you're telling me was if a loyal group chat listener named their pet Woz, you wouldn't take that as a compliment.
- [30:35]
Justin Barrier
Yeah.
- [30:35]
Big Waz
Oh, a group chat listener.
- [30:37]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. Well, that's the equivalent. Right.
- [30:40]
Justin Barrier
What about a cat? What if it's a cat, not a dog?
- [30:43]
Big Waz
What if it's like an anonymous hater on Twitter? It's like, yeah, I named my dog Was.
- [30:50]
Rob Mahoney
If there's a hater out there who names their dog Was because they hate Woz so much that we just have to respect it. Like, that's a level of hating that we have no choice but to accept.
- [30:59]
Justin Barrier
You're Batman villain at that point. I kind of like Lou. Lou's.
- [31:06]
Big Waz
I mean, I think Lou is. Is. Is the one for sure.
- [31:09]
Rob Mahoney
Simple axiom is like, who has the most dog in them? And it's either a Lou Dor or an Alex Crusoe question. And so whichever way, actually, it's got to be Lugin. Right. You got to go full name L.
- [31:20]
Justin Barrier
That's on the birth certificate. But, you know, you're. You're giving names. Just showing you're absolutely right basis, I guess. J doesn't roll off the tongue, even though he is the spawning of the dog barking thing that kind of phased out for the towels this year. So it's true.
- [31:33]
Rob Mahoney
It's been replaced. Bit over bit.
- [31:35]
Justin Barrier
Anything else on the thunder you guys want to hit here after we've covered all the dog names now?
- [31:40]
Rob Mahoney
Well, I just want to say, Justin, great lists. Good trip.
- [31:43]
Justin Barrier
Thank you.
- [31:43]
Rob Mahoney
Fun times. Thank you very much.
- [31:45]
Big Waz
Good job on the list.
- [31:46]
Rob Mahoney
I'm having a great time.
- [31:48]
Big Waz
Good job on the list, bro.
- [31:58]
Justin Barrier
All right, Cat, listen. Coming during variables 2025, I got a preview of the new Variables song, by the way.
- [32:04]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yeah? How are you feeling about it?
- [32:06]
Justin Barrier
I'm fucking loving it.
- [32:07]
Big Waz
We're doing variables before the season's over. You already got this for.
- [32:12]
Justin Barrier
It's the finals variable.
- [32:14]
Big Waz
Oh, yeah.
- [32:14]
Rob Mahoney
Pre finals variable.
- [32:15]
Big Waz
My bad. My bad. Justin, hand up my bad. I forgot about that.
- [32:19]
Rob Mahoney
If you could give us one word, Justin, Word association style to Describe the new variables theme. What would you give us?
- [32:28]
Justin Barrier
Banger. All right.
- [32:30]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, look, I'm not going to argue with a banger.
- [32:32]
Justin Barrier
How about this? If you want something a little bit more specific to the tone here. Beep boop. Hyphenated.
- [32:38]
Rob Mahoney
Hyphenated.
- [32:39]
Justin Barrier
Okay.
- [32:40]
Rob Mahoney
Could you use that in a sentence?
- [32:43]
Justin Barrier
You're a beep boop guy.
- [32:44]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, thank you.
- [32:46]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Right.
- [32:47]
Big Waz
Okay.
- [32:48]
Justin Barrier
Woz is. Check that.
- [32:51]
Big Waz
I thought you were making robot noises. So I'm like, is this like a daft.
- [32:56]
Justin Barrier
Oh, it is.
- [32:56]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, I want to say. Yeah, that'd be. That'd be right in our zone, I think.
- [32:59]
Big Waz
I'm like, is this a Daft Punk?
- [33:01]
Justin Barrier
A little. A little. Think earlier. Think earlier.
- [33:04]
Big Waz
Earlier than Daft Punk. Okay.
- [33:05]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. No, Rob just challenged my. My grammatical acumen and I had to turn it into it.
- [33:10]
Rob Mahoney
It wasn't a challenge. I was just doing the spelling here.
- [33:15]
Justin Barrier
Use. Use it in. Get the country of origin. Yeah. You want control of your financial future.
- [33:21]
Big Waz
And Schwab knows that.
- [33:23]
Rob Mahoney
That's why when it comes to managing.
- [33:25]
Big Waz
Your wealth, we give you more choices.
- [33:27]
Rob Mahoney
Like full service wealth management and advice.
- [33:29]
Big Waz
When you need it most. You can also invest on your own.
- [33:32]
Justin Barrier
And trade on thinkorswim, our powerful, award winning trading platforms.
- [33:36]
Rob Mahoney
Plus, you'll get low costs, transparent pricing.
- [33:39]
Justin Barrier
And 247 live help.
- [33:41]
Big Waz
Because at Schwab, we understand it's your.
- [33:43]
Rob Mahoney
Financial journey and we believe you should have choices in how you invest. Visit schwab.com to learn and more.
- [33:49]
Justin Barrier
This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. Not all EVs are built the same. And the Ioniq 9, it's in a league of its own. It's Hyundai's first all electric EV with three rows. Yep, you heard that right. Actual space in an EV. Finally. And with over 300 miles of range and ultra fast charging capability and smart safety tech built in, expect more room and more ways to make the most of it. Check out the Ioniq 9 at Hyundai USA.com, call 562-314-4603 for complete details. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Business.
- [34:24]
Big Waz
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Justin Barrier
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Big Waz
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- [34:44]
Rob Mahoney
Go to amazonbusiness.com for support.
- [34:48]
Justin Barrier
This episode is brought to you by. Indeed, a successful season Starts with picking the right players for your team. If I were picking a team, I'd pick some of the greatest players of all time. Maybe I get Kareem at the 5. Maybe I get Tim Duncan at the 4, LeBron at the 3, Jordan at the 2 and Kobe at the 1. Or maybe I will get Steph at the 1. Step at the 1 will be pretty cool too. If you want to hire the best players for your business and quickly, you need Indeed. Their sponsor jobs help you stand out and reach relevant candidates faster. Plus, with Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts, and you pay for the results. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. Listeners of this show will get a 75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs. More visibility@ Indeed.com RingerMBA that's Indeed.com RingerMBA right now. And support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.comringermba Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. All right, why don't we flip to the war room now with Minnesota. We talked about this one thing about the war room.
- [35:50]
Big Waz
I think we're going to extend this bit, I'm sure to the next offseason. We need a graphic of us.
- [35:57]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [35:58]
Big Waz
Like, but like in the form of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and the bin Laden mission. War room. You've seen that?
- [36:09]
Justin Barrier
Yeah.
- [36:09]
Rob Mahoney
Who else is in the room? Was like, who? Like, if we're going like full TNT gone fishing with this, like, who else are we photoshopping into the war room with us?
- [36:16]
Big Waz
We put in Keith in there. Gotta be Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, Eduardo, because he be stepping up definitely every now and again.
- [36:26]
Justin Barrier
Your cat on video more than any other guy.
- [36:29]
Big Waz
Have to be since she's a fucking.
- [36:31]
Rob Mahoney
I'm just imagining a random guy in that room in a suit with a Mimi head superimposed over like this. This image is gonna really pop off.
- [36:38]
Justin Barrier
I thought you were going to suggest costumes. And I was like, oh, but war room costume, just like general vibe going on here.
- [36:47]
Big Waz
Oh, God, yeah.
- [36:48]
Rob Mahoney
What are you guys thinking, costume wise for when the Pacers do make the NBA Finals? Like, what are the two of you gonna do to repent to honor the Pacers, do you think?
- [36:57]
Big Waz
I don't know if it's an Indiana centric kind of thing.
- [37:02]
Rob Mahoney
I mean overall, should I get like.
- [37:04]
Big Waz
Some overalls or something?
- [37:05]
Rob Mahoney
Doesn't IU do like a red pinstriped pants kind of situation? You know, look into that. We'll have to see kind of what the overlap is on. On Hoosier Nation and Pacer Nation. I suspect a lot, but I don't know if there's like a. A Purdue rivalry in there that I need to be mindful of. I'm trying to just dodge landmines.
- [37:22]
Justin Barrier
I think HR might have some thoughts on us going, like, with pants shots for the. The full body shots for some of these zoom things.
- [37:31]
Big Waz
I think we'll be okay.
- [37:32]
Justin Barrier
Okay. No, I still owe for the spurs, so we have to.
- [37:37]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, that's so true.
- [37:37]
Justin Barrier
I don't think we did. We didn't do costume for. For Pacers. We never had a Pacers bet.
- [37:44]
Rob Mahoney
I'm not saying we had a bet. I'm just saying I feel like you two need to, like, prostrate yourself some.
- [37:48]
Big Waz
Respect to the genuine faces to the.
- [37:51]
Rob Mahoney
Future Eastern Conference champions. That's all.
- [37:54]
Justin Barrier
I'll have to borrow one of WAZ's black tanks and we'll do a black tank.
- [37:59]
Rob Mahoney
That was insane, by the way, that they gave him the mic at the game and he just like calling out New York. Still half as. I don't know. I don't think there's a little too.
- [38:08]
Justin Barrier
Much to me like, I love that Timmy and still are now like everybody's favorite buddy duo. But, like, they're showing them every five minutes on the broadcast.
- [38:18]
Rob Mahoney
Our guys are flying across the country to come to hang out with their team and watch the games. Like, what's wrong with that?
- [38:24]
Justin Barrier
I think the millions of dollars that they have and, you know, everything else is probably enough of a reward.
- [38:29]
Rob Mahoney
That's fair.
- [38:30]
Justin Barrier
They don't need screen time. All right, Minnesota war room. We're assembled. Just envision costumes or this war room photo if you'd like. Big off season, kind of quick, quickly happening, despite the fact that they traded Carl Town just on the precipice of the season. So Randall, technically a free agent, has a player option for about 31 million. Nasrid 15 million player option in Akil Alexander Walker, unrestricted free agent. So was, if you're looking at that list, Randle, Nas, Nikhil, how would you prioritize those guys? Because I have a hard time believing they're going to be able to bring all three back.
- [39:10]
Big Waz
It's funny because it feels like the entire point of bringing Julius Randle in was to not bring him back. Right. It was like, we're paying the hell out of Katie.
- [39:25]
Rob Mahoney
He almost wasn't supposed to be this good, if that makes sense. Like, to be sure that he'll now be very Quite expensive, I would think, to bring back.
- [39:32]
Big Waz
But think about it though, Rob. Like, if you pay this guy 45 million or 40 million or whatever it's gonna take to keep him and you keep Nas Reed and you lost, got your doors blown off just like you did the year before. Now you've renewed that same amount of long term commitment and money. Like, tell me how this is more logical than what they did to let go of Katt last year. It just doesn't fit. Like, Katt had so much money committed years into the future. Big, big money. Now it's like it would be the same amount. Maybe you could get these guys to sign for three instead of four. Okay.
- [40:15]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I think the trade off, the hopeful trade off with that deal, as it stands now, is that maybe you can get both Julius Randle and Nas for something slightly more than cat money. And I. If they had cat at his figure, which is 50 to 60 million ranging over the next three years, I don't know that you necessarily would or could bring back Nas Reed in the same way.
- [40:37]
Big Waz
But here's the thing, though. Nas Reed has a player option for $15 million.
- [40:42]
Rob Mahoney
He certainly does.
- [40:43]
Big Waz
Julius Randle's play option is for 31, right?
- [40:46]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [40:46]
Big Waz
That's already 45 with no raises on this extension.
- [40:51]
Rob Mahoney
If they could get them at those rates, they'd be thrilled. But they will not.
- [40:54]
Big Waz
That's what I'm saying. Like, like, like it's not going to happen.
- [40:58]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, no, it's more. Yeah.
- [40:59]
Justin Barrier
Well, here's the question, though. Who are they bidding against for Randall despite his pretty electric postseason up until this series? Like, who's looking at that and being like, that's the guy that we need. And so if there's not as much competition, can you get him at more of a bargain than you think?
- [41:18]
Big Waz
He could also be like, sign and trade me. Just let me. Trade me. Let me go and I'll go to a team, I'll pick up my option, go to another team that has some respect for what I do. A team that might respect the fact that I carried them to a conference finals.
- [41:33]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [41:35]
Justin Barrier
I find myself leaning toward Woz's way of thinking. I hate to really turn on Julius Randle after we've come so far with him, but I almost wonder if we're saying to ourselves, like, he really wasn't able to push them over the top. They're in the over the top business, and maybe they should look at using him as a more palatable expiring contract to make more of an upgrade. Like, if you have enough other stuff, Dillingham picks, whatever it might be to entice the Suns, for instance, to Kevin Durant. Kevin Durant's like, I only want to go to the Timberwolves to play with Ant. He's my boy from Team usa, et cetera, et cetera. Then it's like, oh, the Suns might be like, oh, we could use Randle for a year and then just let him go. That honestly might be the best case scenario. Which is tough because I feel bad. Randle's been good, but I just don't see it long term.
- [42:21]
Big Waz
Earned a new deal.
- [42:23]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [42:24]
Big Waz
If earning deals is such a thing in the NBA, it would seem that he's earned one.
- [42:31]
Rob Mahoney
I completely agree. I think those plans, I think, are worth considering for sure. But at the same time, you have to be very careful about throwing that to Julius Randle to say, what do you think about playing for the Phoenix Suns? Because if it is going to be a trade, he has to buy in on it, right? He either he has to pick up that option in order to make it possible in the first place. That's dicey. Just like from a.
- [42:52]
Big Waz
The Suns would have to promise him money. Like, why am I helping you execute? Like, it's going to get complicated or it's just going to. Either it gets complicated in that way, or they just go with what it seems like they wanted to do, which is get Cats money off their books.
- [43:13]
Rob Mahoney
I don't think they can let Julius Randall just walk.
- [43:16]
Justin Barrier
The other factor we should mention here is it does seem like everything's aligned with the ownership changed now, whereas before it was in flux. And so maybe they're more likely to add money because that ownership group was the one pushing for the Go Bear trade in the first place in order to put their books in the position where they ultimately had to trade Cat. Right. So different situation for the ownership group, but in terms of Naz and Nikhil Rob, if you had to make a choice, gun to your head, you can only keep one or you keep it.
- [43:45]
Rob Mahoney
I don't think, unfortunately for the Wolves, there's going to be a choice. I don't think they will be able to resign Nikhil Alexander Walker. They can really only resign him using his Bird rights. And unfortunately for them, Nas or not Nas, Nikhil Alexander Walker is on an exceedingly reasonable contract. Uh, so I think the best they can offer him is somewhere in the ballpark of like $8 million. Uh, that's not going to work. Not going to be nearly enough. Nikhil Alexander Walker's Appeal throughout the league I think will be quite high. Every team could use Nikhil Alexander Walker. He's not going to break the bank in a way that a Julius Randall will. I don't know that the Wolves are going to be able to like, logistically get it done unless they rework their books in a really significant way. So then you come back to Nas almost by default. But also you should want Nas Reid back on your team. He's a really good player.
- [44:28]
Big Waz
That's a reasonable number. 25.
- [44:32]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, that was, that was kind of where I was thinking 25ish. And. And maybe he is the kind of player who might take some kind of discount for the sake that like he is a beloved Timberwolf and has really come into his own with that organization as a member of that community. Like has a really good thing going in a way that I could see someone like him not giving away the farm, but like giving a little back for the sake of saying 4 years, 90.
- [44:56]
Justin Barrier
Sure. Give him the IP to his typeface as you.
- [44:59]
Rob Mahoney
As you damn well should to the beach towel. He should be getting a commission on these damn beach towels.
- [45:05]
Big Waz
On the merch. Oh God.
- [45:11]
Justin Barrier
So do we like. I mean, let's say that's the team, just Randall and Nas back, but we cut off one of our key rotation players. Especially in this series.
- [45:17]
Rob Mahoney
Like this is where like the Terence Shannon minutes aren't just cute. It's like you need Terence Shannon to be good. You need someone who's going to step into Nikhil's role.
- [45:26]
Justin Barrier
What'd you think about those seven minutes for Rob Dillingham at the end of this one?
- [45:30]
Big Waz
Not scintillating, but the best rookie season I've ever seen.
- [45:34]
Rob Mahoney
No, I'll say.
- [45:36]
Big Waz
And I had some hopes for him coming in, but. And you know, his minutes were super inconsistent, but he is tiny dude.
- [45:47]
Justin Barrier
Real blow to the short kings between him and Reed shepherd, just getting no minutes this year.
- [45:52]
Big Waz
Tough.
- [45:53]
Justin Barrier
So. So I don't know how he fits in too. Like you're just assuming he's going to be the energy scorer off the bench next year. I didn't see anything from this year that would suggest that like all of a sudden all those height issues are just going to correct themselves.
- [46:05]
Big Waz
Well, what do we think about being, you know, like, yo, we're in a matchup based league. We gotta pray somebody else takes those guys out. And we like our matchup against the rest of the West. Yeah, I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to say. It's just traditionally how Teams have built themselves. When I think about, you know, what Maury did in Houston when everybody was scared of the KD warriors and he was like, screw that. We're going all in on a super switchable team and, you know, like have this wing heavy kind of rotation and whatever. We're going for it. And they even took them seven games and all of that stuff. Traditionally, that's what teams would do. The Knicks going like, yo, we got to bring in elite wings and trade all these picks for Bridges because we got a matchup against Boston. It would seem that running this team back is not them trying to match up against okc.
- [47:06]
Rob Mahoney
No, but how. How does one match up with okc? I think a lot of the weaknesses that the Thunder supposedly had are being taken off the board. It used to be like, oh, if you're a good enough rebounding team, you can bully the Thunder. Well, that didn't work. If you're a big enough team, maybe you could stifle them inside with your defense. Well, that didn't work. Maybe you could dare their role players to shoot. Maybe you could match their athleticism. That hasn't really worked either. Like, none of these teams have been able to figure out how you match up with a defense like okcs. I hear you about, like the warriors comp and like, I do think there's something really admirable about targeting specific needs that can challenge specific contenders if you know you have to run through them. I think the Wolves have done that really successfully when they thought Denver was the number one team they needed to deal with. I just don't know what you do with the Thunder. I don't know how you target them in a very specific way. And so then I think you do default to like, this team is good enough to push a incredible wide variety of Western Conference opponents with Julius Randle as a part of it, with Nas Reed as a part of it. That may cost you $40 million a year for Julius Randle to make that happen. That the number I kept coming back to was the three year old $120 million extension that Brandon Ingram just got. That's now two Brandon Ingram invocations on podcasts in May. I apologize, but Raptors fans love it.
- [48:20]
Justin Barrier
Heard more about that, like two minutes at the end of last week's podcast than anything else.
- [48:25]
Rob Mahoney
Look, when you're one of those teams at this time of year and you're like neither heavy into the draft nor heavy into the NBA playoffs, like, you got to take the crumbs, you can get.
- [48:33]
Justin Barrier
It's Blake. Well, can I interest you in what I'm now calling the long window theory, which is what I kind of proposed to you guys last week in a very meandering conversation, but basically, just be the best you could be and then see what happens. And I do think, like, let's say, for instance, everything went the same for the Wolves. Oh, all of a sudden in Game 7, Chet sprained his ankle. Bad high ankle sprain. Can't play in this series. Well, windows open for you because they're on that level. All they need is just the right breaks in the way that it kind of has worked out for. For the Pacers. And so it's just like, be all.
- [49:07]
Big Waz
That you can be, or like Shay and J Dub, like, fall out over a gambling debt or something.
- [49:13]
Justin Barrier
That's right.
- [49:13]
Big Waz
That would be sick, actually.
- [49:15]
Justin Barrier
Word.
- [49:16]
Big Waz
You're right. I. I tend to agree with you, Justin. I think sometimes we see these outcomes as over determined, you know, like, yeah, the Wolves looked completely horrible against this team in this matchup, but I'm sorry, man. It's the NBA. I think teams can figure out, like, yo, if this is the target, we could come up with better ways of being competitive against him. I. I truly believe that. I don't. I don't think, like, OKC is this unsolvable problem. They're not the KD warriors. I do not believe that. Right. Like, where it's like, look, guys, these guys are healthy. You guys are gonna get your doors blown off every single time despite the matchup. I don't think that's the truth. And maybe some of it is just like, yo, we. We're, you know, we keep our continuity together, we keep our talent relatively high to all of our peers. And, you know, we go into the off season with a target no longer on Denver, but on okc and a mindset of, like, how do we beat what OKC is so fantastic at?
- [50:16]
Rob Mahoney
Justin, there's like a Napoleonic battle strategy that is attuned to this of, like, you just show up and you keep showing up, and you see what happens every time out. You know, this is. This is advancing into Russia territory. But I guess my question as far as, like, the. The long window theory is that we're dubbing it. How is this different than normal? Like, what are we changing into this particular theory?
- [50:40]
Big Waz
I think what's different is the sort of NBA online discourse that if you're not championship worthy, then you're wasting your time.
- [50:49]
Rob Mahoney
Got it?
- [50:50]
Big Waz
Which I think that theory, which I've always thought was stupid, is not true. Like if, like. Cause if you would have applied that to the Pacers, they wouldn't be going to the NBA championship right now. Right? Like, you would be like, oh, this Halliburton thing, like he's not even a superstar. And they need to figure, they need to stop, you know, circling the drain in the middle and blah, blah, blah. That's what people would have said traditionally about the Pacers team. And guess what? Boston goes down, the Knicks ain't ready, we're gonna be in the Finals. Cause we've coalesced, you know, as a unit and we have all of this continuity and chemistry and, you know, these parts fit so complimentary of each other. And now we're on the precipice of the Finals. And I think, yeah, man, I think that's a rebuke of what people would have said in the past where, you know, you're treating the actual NBA as if it's a video game and you just simulate through seasons and it's not like real life.
- [51:46]
Justin Barrier
I think there's two things that have changed within the past two years or so. One, injuries seem to be up on mass. It just seems harder to play longer minutes in the regular season. And so if injuries are piling up, maybe things fluctuate a little bit more. The second thing is, obviously the CBA is designed specifically to crack down on teams that are top heavy, that are built in order to aggregate stars. And those teams are typically looking to narrow, like to land a narrow window. If you just give yourself a long track record in the way that the Thunder are, the way that the spurs could. If they decide to draft Dylan Harper at 2 as opposed to trade for Giannis, then it's just like we might have a 5D 8 year stretch, but things could happen. We're not going to be number one in the Vegas odds every year. Maybe we will, maybe we won't, but you're just going to be competitive. I mean, it's really just what the spurs did early on, which the warriors tried to replicate. Unfortunately, the warriors were a little bit more splintered between two different eras. If you have all of your guys generally on the same timeline, and you're supplementing veterans that aren't key to the core, I think you could just keep piling on different versions of the same team. That seemed to be the working theory. In addition to the money with the wolves that we have, we're an ant team. We're going to be an ant team for as long as possible. Let's just make sure we have options along the way.
- [53:04]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think that makes sense and I think as far as the length of that window too, one of the things we're seeing with the teams that are breaking through the Thunder in the NBA Finals, the Pacers are on the brink of the NBA Finals. That means a team is going to win the title. If the Pacers do in fact make it, that is either led by a 26 year old superstar or a 24 year old superstar. Like maybe the avenue for the younger teams to bust through is there in a way that it never was before. And by virtue of that then you have the longevity of this window and that's where the Thunder is just scary as hell. And I think part of the reason why this feels like the Thunder era kind of opening was is not necessarily because they're unbeatable a la the KD Warriors. It's because they have all this stuff. As Justin alluded to on last podcast, this is probably the worst that they're going to be because these young guys are going to continue to get better in the near future.
- [53:48]
Big Waz
But they got to get paid. They got to get paid for that. But this is the cheapest team in the league for sure.
- [53:53]
Rob Mahoney
But I would say that, I would say the timing of their contracts is as amenable to the current CBA as any team outlook in the league. And they have something that almost no other contender does, which is all of those picks to replenish kind of the young rotation talent. Like they're it seems clear at this point they don't necessarily have designs to trade for a star and like a big swing trade. They just want to eventually trade for the next case in Wallace or the next Aaron Wiggins. You know, it's like they're going to replace those guys over time is what's.
- [54:20]
Justin Barrier
Most likely on that point. I was actually doing some digging today because I might try to write up this long window theory because I'm really trying to own this Terry corner.
- [54:29]
Rob Mahoney
I don't you and Napoleon.
- [54:30]
Justin Barrier
But yeah we really need to dig into what you're doing on your off time with this research. I don't think the Thunder have traded a first round pick at the very least since Chris Paul maybe dating back to since the Paul George trade for a player. Like in order to get a veteran in house when they trade first it's usually to move around in the draft to get the guy that they want. They aren't adding veteran players. If anything, they're just trying to nail draft picks until Rob's point Like they're trying to actually develop a feeder system to the point where it's like, oh man, Lou dork can't pay him this year. Caruso and case of malls right there. Or like you need a backup point guard up. Nikola topic is just like hanging out, like playing on an iPad.
- [55:14]
Rob Mahoney
Like one of like a really a much ballyhooed prospect who we talked about a lot in the expansion draft because he was really coveted for exactly those kinds of purposes. Because the Thunder are so stacked. Nikolatovich just sitting right there could be a. Could be a member of the future of the Thunder. Maybe not. I have no idea. But the fact that they have that at their disposal is insane.
- [55:33]
Big Waz
Yeah.
- [55:34]
Justin Barrier
So Keith Smith had this stat on Twitter right before we jumped down here. If it is indeed Pacers Thunder, that would be the first NBA final since the luxury tax was instituted that neither team is a taxpayer.
- [55:49]
Rob Mahoney
Fascinating.
- [55:49]
Justin Barrier
I feel like that's pretty telling because I think the league is largely dictated by legalese in the cba. In all those documents, it is literally a brief that dictates human behavior. And they have said we want teams, not we want parity, but we also want teams that build like this. I think it's telling that soon after the new CBA is instituted, we get two of these teams. That doesn't feel like a mistake.
- [56:16]
Rob Mahoney
So the new market inefficiency in the modern NBA paralegals, you need someone combing through that paper, you know, like control f chat, GPT. It's not going to get it done anymore. Like you need real manpower.
- [56:27]
Justin Barrier
I'm here, I'm hoping for a part time job. When I'm not gardening, I'm done.
- [56:32]
Rob Mahoney
The Timberwolves are relevant to this discussion too though, because if they commit to, let's say, two of those three guys we talked about, Julius, Randall, Nas Reed, Nikhil Alexander, Walker. If they commit to two of those guys, they are effectively committing to be, I think, a second apron team for the foreseeable future, at least the first apron team. The finances can wiggle a little bit depending on how they manage the roster. So it's like they could be not quite locked into that group, but put into a little bit of a corner as far as improving upon what they already have.
- [57:00]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Do you guys want to talk a little Pacers, Knicks before we go here?
- [57:06]
Big Waz
Guess we have to.
- [57:07]
Justin Barrier
We.
- [57:08]
Rob Mahoney
We have to. We're not twisting your arm.
- [57:10]
Big Waz
Was not an arm twist. It's like, is. Is the, is the outcome in doubt here? Like, is there anybody who thinks this thing isn't over.
- [57:19]
Justin Barrier
I want to bring joy to your guys life and I know this makes Rob happy.
- [57:23]
Rob Mahoney
It does.
- [57:23]
Justin Barrier
If we're coming off of the probably best performance of the playoffs and by far the best performance of Tyrese Haliburton's career. Like, feel like we should give him a little time here.
- [57:33]
Rob Mahoney
Oh yeah, what a game. Like the piling up assists with zero turnovers is preposterous on its face. The fact that the team echoes that basically when he's on the floor, like not just him making plays, but everyone else committing very few turnovers as well. We're talking about this a little bit pre show, but it's going to be very fascinating if the Pacers and the Thunder end up meeting in the NBA Finals. All the turnovers that the Thunder force, all the turnovers that the Pacers do not commit. But Tyrese Halliburton has evolved in a way as an ISO scorer, as a creator off the dribble, as someone who's pressing his luck, driving inside and even finishing against Biggs. Another guy who's kind of met every test and answered a lot of the fundamental questions about his game. I will say, especially something we're not talking about a lot with his box store contributions with which if I'm not mistaken were like unprecedented, save for Nicole Jokic and Wilt Chamberlain or something. I can't remember who the third preposterous territory. Yeah, yeah, it might have been that. Defensively, like, I think he has stood up to the test defensively. The Knicks target him, they go at him. That's going to happen whenever you're a star. He has not proven to be Luka Doncic where he flakes defensively out of a couple games. You have to raise him to the challenge of actually competing even in the NBA Finals. Like Halliburton has been fighting through these playoffs. He has stood up in these matchups that he has to stand up in to a level that now the Pacers defense can maintain its overall integrity. And it's like if you're putting up those numbers and you're not like a liability defensively, you're in pretty special territory as far as NBA stardom is concerned.
- [59:06]
Big Waz
I think to me, game four part that was craziest was the amount of time Carlisle was willing to let him rest, which felt like we dominate when this guy's on the court. Like if this thing is a three point game, by the time Halliburton gets in the game, we're going to smoke these guys and like we're talking about six minutes left in the half. Like six minutes, eight minutes left in the fourth, where I'm just like, man, this guy's only playing. He's playing minutes in the 30s. Okay. And it's because while he's out there, he is putting in so much work, he is so dominant. And the game takes the tenor of his basic will. Like, he's dictating the terms of how the game is played, in terms of his pace, in terms of the type of shots the Pacers are going to take. Like, the Knicks don't tell them, like, all right, yo, we know you want to do X, Y and Z. We're going to make you do something different. No, we're going to do what we want to do on every single possession. There's nothing you could do about it. And Rob mentioned the getting to the paint and actually finishing, but also shooting some mid rangers because he is really an analytical friendly type of offensive game. He's like, nah, I'm, I'm going to go ahead and get in the mid range too. Or at least he did in game four. And so I don't think you can say enough about what this guy did. And he just literally looked like the best player on the floor. And I don't think coming into this playoffs anybody would be saying Halliburton was better than Jalen Brunson or that he'd be a more dominant fourth quarter player than Jalen Brunson. And that's been the case up and down this damn series. And, you know, I think he deserves his props now. Look, I think there's been times here.
- [60:58]
Rob Mahoney
It is, however.
- [61:00]
Big Waz
I'm just saying. Defense, bro. I'm sorry.
- [61:05]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [61:06]
Big Waz
Their level of execution and focus has not met the moment.
- [61:10]
Rob Mahoney
No.
- [61:10]
Big Waz
Collectively, but never really. Does someone, someone just put you in a bind? They do.
- [61:14]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, the sets.
- [61:15]
Big Waz
Excuse me, The Pacers put you in a bind, but like, bruh, you gotta be better.
- [61:21]
Rob Mahoney
I, I don't disagree, but what I'm seeing is like somebody just pushed over a vase off a table and you're blaming the craftsmanship of the vase. It's like the Pacers broke them. They move so much, they, they force them into rotations. They make life difficult in a way that like the Boston Celtics did not. Right. Like the other good teams stylistically, just have not been able to press the Knicks in quite that same way. And so I, I give the Pacers a lot of credit. Now, are the Knicks breaking down? Yeah, they're breaking down a lot because the Pacers are really hard to guard mental toughness, definitely. Honestly, a huge part of it. Genuinely.
- [61:53]
Justin Barrier
Well, if I have to bind all of this together, it does feel like there's something going on with the system there. And you have to give Rick Carlisle a lot of credit. Carlisle. Because we talk a lot about coaches being overly dogmatic or a little set in their ways in terms of not wanting to change things. Carlyle has done that. But all of it is to foster all of these, like, things that the team is basically, like their belief system. Like, it is, in order to keep the pace up, in order to cycle through more guys. And so, like, you have to have steel testes, basically, to be like, well, Thomas Bryant, who we shouldn't be playing to begin with, isn't up to snuff. We're gonna go with Tony Bradley just because we need bodies in order to feed this ideology that has been so successful for us. And so Carlile's one pillar, and the second pillar is obviously Halibur. It's just like, everything is unlocking. I don't know if, like, the shooting success of some of the guys he's playing around has unlocked him or his ability to just get guys open, whether it's jump passing or with some of the most wiggly maneuvers I've ever seen from a basketball player. Maybe it's just a feed loop, feedback loop of both. But, like, I mean, the obvious comp is Dantoni and Nash, and, like, the more they have success, the more it reminds me of those teams.
- [63:06]
Big Waz
The thing, too, that's kind of thunder, like, is the confidence that the non Halle guys have, you know, in their ownership of the offense. Like, Lou Dort, sometimes he takes shots. I'm like, this Negro was crazy. Like, why. Why is his light so green? Like, that's crazy to me. But guess what? Like, you have to make those sacrifices. That's going to make the team actually better. That's going to make you more dangerous to guard. That's going to put the defense in more panic. Even though sometimes defenses are going to be like, oh, we want to leave Lou Dort. He's been empowered, and he has the confidence. A lot of shooting he is confidence. And knowing that nobody's going to suck their teeth, nobody's going to whip their neck at you like, yo, what the hell are you doing? If you missed that shot that you took, Like, I think that matters in how the Pacers actually play. And guys like Niece Smith and Nemhard and McConnell and all of these other guys, Obi Toppin, like, these guys have a Green light when they get a look or get like not just to shoot, take it to the rack, take a guy one on one, like whatever, do what the hell you want. It's amazing to watch.
- [64:16]
Rob Mahoney
They have so many guys who can put the ball on the floor and make something happen to the point that when you have that level of buy in from everybody and you have, you know, as you guys have been alluding to, like the flexibility and coaching with Rick Carlisle, who I think makes a lot of adjustments in terms of how the team is navigating but never compromises. Like it's never we're sacrificing the integrity of the system or the culture or the way we play. It's just like we're going to move from this action into Andrew Nemhard. You're heavy pick and roll now. Like you're going to handle the ball, you're going to work the angles, you're going to create. Pascal Sjakam, we're going to post you up on the left block over and over against Josh Hart after we trigger the specific switch. Miles Turner, you're ducking in in transition. We're going to feed you the ball every single time because we don't think these smalls can guard you. You know, Aaron Neesmith, we're going to run you as a pick and pop big because of the. They're going to put Jalen Brunson on you. We're going to make them sweat that way. It's like they just have all these different mechanisms they can toggle between. And all of that is because Tyrese Halliburton, with the strengths of his game, willingness to play that way allows that to be the culture of the Pacers. And I think that's no small thing. It's, I don't say to take anything away from more ball dominant stars or guys who control the offense in a totally different way. We've seen that can be really, really effective. But if you play this other way, you tap into something in an Aaron N.E. smith or an Andrew Nembard or a T.J. mcConnell that those other teams just aren't going to have access to.
- [65:34]
Justin Barrier
How repeatable do you guys think the success for the ancillary guys, the knee Smiths, the Nem hearts, to a certain extent the Turners is repeatable long term. Like do we think that Halliburton has unlocked something in order to draw this out of guys in the way that we've seen best pass first point guards typically do? Do we think that they're just shooting over Their heads at this point and it all just kind of feeds together. Or is this like, this is who these guys are going to be? 1 because they've made progress unbeknownst to maybe the general public or because Halliburton can dredge this out of them?
- [66:07]
Rob Mahoney
I'd say they've done it for two straight years.
- [66:09]
Big Waz
I mean, I think what he's talking about is like, the Heat thing where, like, you know, Caleb Martin and Max Drew and Gabe Vincent leaving don't look half as dope as they did when they were Miami.
- [66:23]
Justin Barrier
Yeah.
- [66:23]
Big Waz
You know, but like, I personally. And maybe I'll be wrong about this, I feel like. Nice. Smith is a clutch shooter. Like Nemhard. Nem hardware teams can't get the ball in against the guy to the guy that he's guarding down the stretch when, like, the Pacers are doing the whole, like, pressuring your inbound like the dude that Nemhard is guarding, like, if you throw it that way, I'm convinced it's gonna be eternal. Like, it seems like all the stuff that they do is real. Even the shot making, it would seem like. And, you know, I guess sometimes it just takes us forever to just accept that some of these guys can be, like, who they've shown themselves to be. But I'm. I'm pretty convinced I'm done. I'm tired of, like, doubting these freaking Pacer dudes.
- [67:08]
Rob Mahoney
We love to hear it.
- [67:09]
Big Waz
I mean, usually being wrong about these fucking guys.
- [67:12]
Rob Mahoney
Usually it takes a run like this for role players, right? If you're a star, you get certain benefits of the doubt. You get the production in the regular season. Like, enough people see what you do to acknowledge it and understand it. If you're a role player, you kind of need a max truce run, or else you're just some guy in the league to a lot of people. And I think Aaron Eastmith has certainly had that moment. Andrew Nemart certainly had that moment. I think as far as the repeatability goes, like, those guys are this. They are this. So long as you care to tap into it. So long as you care to give them space and air to create and move and be a dynamic part of the offense, I think they're going to be able to produce in this way. To me, the big growth for the Pacers this year, if you want to look year over year relative to kind of what they were doing in the playoffs last season and the regular season last year, the way they've been using their bigs, the way they've been tapping into Miles Turner, the way they've been tapping into Obi Toppin and Pascal Siakam, who's his own beast entirely as a.
- [68:01]
Big Waz
Creator series dude he's been awesome.
- [68:04]
Rob Mahoney
And it's like the fact like it's one thing for Siakam to hit the tough shots like he's a good mid range shooter, he's a good long range shooter, he can work off the dribble. He's going to do all that stuff. He's Pascal Siakam. The way they augment it with easy stuff like that's Pacers basketball. And that's something that I think they're, they've grown like they've created the DNA of that of like how do we tap into our bigs into the easiest possible offense for them to beat mismatches. And they do it as consistently as any team in the league.
- [68:30]
Justin Barrier
Miles Turner is going to be the Hakeem Olajuwon for this team. Like 20 years from now he'll be like he played 20 years for the Pacers. We tried to trade him 19 of those. But here he is courtside for Albert and son just taking over the new Pacers.
- [68:45]
Rob Mahoney
I mean statue watch is officially on for Miles Turner. You know, we started the legacy talk too early with Terence Shannon. I think we should have waited for Miles Turner.
- [68:54]
Justin Barrier
I think that's the one thing that might actually deter them is that at this point, if Turner is going to be a free agent, there's a lot of teams looking at this being like God damn, can I get in the.
- [69:02]
Rob Mahoney
Miles Turner business as they should.
- [69:04]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. So all right, we'll see. Game. What five back in New York tomorrow, Thursday. I don't know if we'll be back on Saturday. I think it depends a lot on what happens in that series. If they don't go into a six.
- [69:21]
Big Waz
Game finals scheduled to start on June 5th. Right. Or something insane like that.
- [69:26]
Justin Barrier
Got a lot of time but for us we'll probably be Saturday or Monday. I'm sure you can figure that out based on who wins the game on Thursday, so. Or just email rob rob.
- [69:40]
Rob Mahoney
Gmail.Com I'll hit you up. Gardening tips, scheduling updates, takes on what Indiana themed costumes we should be looking at when we're open to all of it.
- [69:50]
Justin Barrier
I love those gardening tips, man. Those have been helpful.
- [69:52]
Rob Mahoney
Coming in.
- [69:53]
Justin Barrier
I will say my two corns are looking. Looking good. I've been doubted, but I've been down coming in much like Tyrone.
- [70:02]
Big Waz
Nobody believed in my corn was not overrated.
- [70:06]
Justin Barrier
Properly rated corn.
- [70:09]
Rob Mahoney
Have they even. Have they even reaped corn yet. Have you even harvested?
- [70:13]
Justin Barrier
They've been in the ground for like two weeks, but they're sprout.
- [70:16]
Big Waz
But he's comfortable.
- [70:17]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [70:18]
Justin Barrier
You're guys photos.
- [70:19]
Rob Mahoney
You're like the December January Cavs right now. You're getting way ahead of yourself, buddy.
- [70:25]
Justin Barrier
The nobody believed in us gardeners. That's me. All right, let's wrap it there. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back sometime in the next couple days. We'll talk to you about must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. gambling problem, call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or 800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York.