Loading summary
Transcript151 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreigner NBA show Howard Beck, senior writer at the Ringer. With me is Michael Pena, also a senior writer at the Ringer. Pina. There's absolutely nothing happening in the NBA. Am I allowed to say that at the beginning of an NBA podcast?
- [00:25]
B
It's true, Howard. It's true.
- [00:27]
A
We're. We're in the dog days of August. There are contract extensions coming out left and right. Luca, Deer and Fox. We've got, like, warmed over Giannis stuff, speculation, something. Nothing that's like, particularly newsworthy or burning a hole in our pockets. So you proposed and I accepted the idea that in this, like, nice, quiet space of the summer, we'll, we'll. We'll just have some fun. We'll do our. Our best duos. Favorite duos. I don't know if we really specified exactly. We're doing duos. Duos of some sort. That's our deal.
- [01:04]
B
I think I, I proposed top duos. Top duos. That's. That's a good way to end it.
- [01:09]
A
That's pretty open to interpretation.
- [01:11]
B
Yeah. So.
- [01:15]
A
So the, the listeners know we did not do the pod before the pod. Peter and I did go out to dinner last night here in Brooklyn. Had a fine dinner, lovely. In Carol Gardens, but we did not do the pod before the pod. So I don't know where you're going. You don't know where I'm going. Is there any other. Before we get into this, is there any new. Like, did we miss anything in our long conversation about various things last night about the NBA or anything? Like, is there anything we need to touch on before we just get into duos? Because I'm. There's nothing really burning a hole in my pocket.
- [01:44]
B
No, I don't think so. I was. I'm doing this other story right now that I don't want to step on so.
- [01:50]
A
Too.
- [01:51]
B
Too much. But I was Googling around and I saw that. Not to spring this on you because we didn't prepare, but Trey Young is apparently disappointed that the Atlanta Hawks have not offered him a contract extension. So I don't know if you have any thoughts about that, Howard. We could get those off your chest real quick.
- [02:11]
A
Well, I mean, listen, I don't. I don't know if Trey and teammate to be named may pop up on somebody's duos today. Possible. We'll see. This seems like kind of a critical year for everything Hawks related, right? A pretty nice off season. Everybody had high praise for. For their, Their summer and their acquisitions. And I think everybody certainly you at the top of the list. Pretty Excited to see what a full season of Trey and Jalen Johnson looks like. And, yeah, I don't, I don't think you want to sour that by having a cloud of a lack of extension hanging over it. So maybe worth keeping an eye on.
- [02:49]
B
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that you would give TRAE YOUNG the four year, $229 million extension tomorrow. Is that what I'm hearing? Howard?
- [02:58]
A
Listen, we are in an interesting time. We'll just this, this quick little tangent because it's related to everything that's happened this summer or not happened this summer. Right. Like, teams are having to kind of recalibrate and reassess in this second apron era, which we are still very early in. And one of the lessons, I think, or one of, like the early warnings, I think, is if you, if you have guys that you think are core players, in the past, it was automatic, almost, right. This is our star player. Our star player, whether he is one of the best 10 or 20 players in the league or not, he's our best player. He gets a max, almost automatic ever since the max was created over 20 years ago. And I think we're now in a space where you have to have a little tougher conversation internally. Right. And maybe that's what's happening in Atlanta. And so, no, I'm, I am not prepared to give him. What did you say? 229?
- [03:49]
B
I believe that's the figure that I saw.
- [03:51]
A
Yeah, but he is, you know, he's super talented. He is their best player. And there's, there's still a scenario there where he's, you know, one of the, I mean, he is one of the best players in the league, depending on where you want to draw the line, 25, 30, wherever it is. Trey Young's really, really talented and really important to them. I, I, I, I. We're now having to figure out where the line is. Now, when do you automatically give it to the guy, the max, even if you're not entirely sure that this is the franchise star that you want to build around? When do you feel just obligated based on keeping up good relations and keeping the vibes good and knowing full well that you might end up having to trade them later. And if you do, how much harder is it if the guy's averaging 50, 60 million a year?
- [04:37]
B
Yeah, I think that real quick. The de' Aaron Fox extension with the San Antonio spurs was for the max, which was a little surprising based on where that organization is and the Dylan Harper draft pick and all that giving De' Aaron Fox 30% of the cap as you're trying to ascend is a little risky. And I feel like the Atlanta Hawks were not fans of that contract with the Aaron Fox because if I'm Trey Young and his representation, I'm looking at that like, I've made four all star teams. This dude has made one. I've played in almost 30 playoff games, this dude has played in six or seven. And I know that the two situations are very different, but I think that that was not something that the Atlanta Hawks and their brain trust were smiling about.
- [05:27]
A
Yeah, I think it's a great call. I, I think they probably winced a little bit. And, and honestly, I'm a little surprised that the spurs went that far with it as. As good as dear and Fox has been because they've, they've got. I don't know. There's. There's. They're still sorting things out and he hasn't played that many games with Wemby yet. And they've got Castle and now they got Harper and I, I don't know. I think we're still in a, in a phase of like, as I was saying, teams in general. If the guy is, is an all star caliber player, you. You give him the max and it's almost automatic, But I'm not sure it should be automatic today's NBA. All right, so we said five best NBA duos. We did not specify rules of what top or best or whatever could mean. And so this could be, as I looked at it, two most talented teammates, regardless of fit, right. If they're Both a top 10, top 20, top 30 type player. Could just be two most talented guys together, even if they don't play off each other. Well, necessarily. Right. May not even be both offensive players. Might be a great defender, you know, could be like a Gobert Anthony Edwards situation. Right? Could be the best tandem as a tandem. Right. They play off each other, enhance each other really well. Could be just we just like them or just intrigued. And we did not discuss any of this ahead of time. Before we dive into who we actually have, I have this one other quick thought, which is historically, do you have like, is there a platonic ideal for a duo? When you're thinking of like the classic NBA duo, the one, two punch that you think, like, that's the standard either in terms of just being absolutely dominant, just being awesome, or the model that you would want to follow. Like, who comes to mind immediately, like, when you're thinking of, like when we talk modern duos, who are the historic ones that you think of first?
- [07:17]
B
I think there are two that are aesthetically different and both have been mimicked for years on end. The first is like the wing slash guard, primary ball handler, and the big. So Shaq and Kobe I think are the. That's the ideal one. You have Tony Parker and Tim Duncan. Yeah, Stockton and Malone. Yes, Stockton and Malone to a different extent, a little bit with Malone being a power forward. And then you have like the Wings who just don't necessarily play off of each other, but are just hellacious on the court together. So the best one ever is Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. Yes, we just. Well, I don't want to talk about too many contemporary ones to kind of foreshadow where our conversation could go, but there are several in the league right now that are really fascinating based on length, athleticism, you know, all that sort of stuff. So those are the two kinds of duos that I think are the most most prevalent and successful throughout the league.
- [08:25]
A
The Jordan Pippen one is the one that like, to me is almost like my personal standard bearer, just because that was the first team that I really watched a ton of, like in the 90s, like I was alive in the 80s. I wasn't watching quite as much NBA in the 80s as in the 90s. And just besides that, Jordan Pippen were just fun. And in a time when this was still kind of an inside out league and bigs were still super important and like, they were dominating with, you know, you know, Bill Weddington and Luke Longley and whatever, because Jordan Pippen were just so awesome together. I mean, obviously there was a Horace Grant for 13 Pete and there was a Dennis Rodman for another 3 Pete. All that. But like Jordan and Pippen and I think they also are like a duo that transfers to today's NBA, you know, three point shooting for a minute. Obviously they would work on that if they were live or. Or playing in this era of the NBA. But the. But just being able to dominate at both ends, just being absolute terrors defensively. Terrors offensively. All that length and just, you know, Pippin was just this balletic type player who's just so graceful. I just. I love the combination there. So, like, they're kind of like my favorite. But like, yeah, Shaq and Kobe, who. Who, you know, obviously I covered. But like, that's the classic guard center version. That was amazing. Those are the. Those like the first two duos that came to mind when I was trying to think historically were those. Were those Two. There's obviously some other great ones in the past. Jerry, Westwell, Chamberlain, LeBron and Wade. Another version of kind of the great call.
- [09:51]
B
Great call. Yeah.
- [09:53]
A
And it was funny, I was looking like, did who? When people have made their, like, best of all, timeless, like Isaiah, Thomas and Joe Dumars pop up, which is one of the rare, like guard guardians versions of this. So. All right, all that said, let's dive in. I don't know if you want to go in. In. Did you want to go like 5, 5 down to 1? Do we just. Does it matter what order we go?
- [10:16]
B
I think we should definitely count down from five.
- [10:19]
A
So. So from our. Our fifth best down to our first best.
- [10:22]
B
Yeah. Keep the people. Keep the people on their toes, huh?
- [10:25]
A
Okay. All right. Because there I have a little bit of. I have some optionality here, so I'll, I'll figure out the ranking as I go. All right, hit me with your. Your number five.
- [10:36]
B
Okay, so before I give you my number five, a quick little rundown of how I looked at this process. So you.
- [10:44]
A
How many spreadsheets were involved?
- [10:45]
B
There's.
- [10:45]
A
How many algorithms.
- [10:46]
B
There are no spreadsheet spreadsheets. I. This was extremely, like, not off the top of my head, but, you know, I looked at the teams. I know who plays for what teams. Just kind of refresh my memory and I feel like I have a good grasp on things. All right, so basically looking at, you know, combined talent and eventually said Howard, that's really important. Just how good are these two players? I also kind of factored in how self sufficient the duo would be together regardless of their surroundings. Yeah, I factored in durability, I factored in offensive compatibility, defensive compatibility, and last but not least, like, if they're staggered, how are, how good are they independently enough to carry the load, if that makes sense.
- [11:34]
A
Yeah.
- [11:36]
B
So my number five, with that preamble out of the way is right in our backyard. Not Nick Claxton and Michael Porter Jr. No, I'm just kidding. That is not it. Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Townes.
- [11:54]
A
Yeah.
- [11:55]
B
Are my number. My number five. Best dynamic duo in the NBA and I have them fifth. First of all, do you think that's low? Was that duo on your list at all?
- [12:06]
A
They're on my list. And I hesitated a little bit because NBA stats was like really being really glitchy this morning. But I believe Brunson and Kat last year were plus 4.9 per 100, which is fine. It's not dominant though, for two guys who are perennial all Stars. No. And that's in, in 1464 minutes, 57 games. So it's like a pretty good sample size. Knicks 151 games last season, their first one together. What I like about them is, is, is more about what they've done individually. Right. Like Jalen Brunson can just get a shot almost like anywhere, anytime at impossible angles and in crowds and everything else. And it just seems impossible for a guy his size. And he's just, he's just amazing at manufacturing. Right. And Town's obviously one of the, the best shooting 7 footers of all time from, from range, from 3 point range and you know, could do some things inside and is, is a good playmaker and you can run offense through him. But they didn't run offense through him as much as I think they could have or as I think some Knicks fans would have, would have liked to see last season under Tibs. And I'm curious to see what Mike Brown does, does differently. I, I, I, I think they belong on this list and I had them on my list. I did not actually put things in order, so let's just say that they were there. But I, I think there's potential for them in year two together. And maybe with a little bit more offensive creativity from Mike Brown, presumably we might see a more devastating version of it.
- [13:40]
B
Yeah, I think offensively this is pretty much as good as it gets with these two, like just looking at their games, looking at how they fit together. It's one of the better on paper pick and rolls that you can have because Karl Anthony Towns, I mean basically every year of his career when he's on the court, the team's offense is incredible because he's one of the best three point shooting big men in NBA history. He can pop behind the three point line, he can set a screen and dive to the rim. He's a lob threat, he can post up, draw two, kick out. And Jalen Brunson is, I mean, I will say his, I've said this a couple times, but his Game 4 against the Boston Celtics was one of the best offensive performances I've ever seen in person in my entire life. He was incredible. Everything he threw up was going in, gets to the line, can score at all three levels, is he's just an incredible basketball player. And I think like those, they, they make each other better. Despite their first. There were some hiccups I think in their first season together last year, but I am, I am too intrigued by Mike Brown coming in and kind of fleshing out the offensive playbook a little bit and maybe running a little bit more pick and roll with them and just unlocking different, different aspects of how they threaten defenses. So that they were my number five. And honestly, like, for a. I think Brunson made second team all NBA and Towns was third team all NBA. They could have been higher on this list. But I think defense is just such a red flag and like terrible and matters a lot. And so when you have two guys who are two of the more questionable to bad defenders at their position, it's. It's not great.
- [15:41]
A
Yeah. And it was. The first thing I was going to throw back at you was like, how much did you want to weigh in defense? And obviously we're factoring in everything, but when we think about dynamic duos currently or in history, we often gravitate immediately to the guys who put up big numbers. Right. Like, this is an offensive. You know, like basketball has two sides. Yes. But if you don't have guys, if your two stars are not elite scorers, you're probably not going real far anyway. So I think defense becomes not an afterthought, but is definitely secondary and you can manufacture ways to be good defensively around them. And if you're elite enough offensively, it can offset your weaknesses defensively. But yeah, these are two guys who are both kind of subpar in that regard and, and Towns in particular. You know, the whole reason for the exercise in Minnesota of getting Rudy Gobert was far five is, is Towns. And he's not really a rim protector and he's not really going to get an anchor, a defense. We got to try something else. And with the Knicks last year, we didn't even really get a full picture of what their ideal lineup is. Right. Mitchell Robinson is out for, you know, more than half the season. I think it was more than half. But a huge chunk of the season comes in. They. They play them together at times. But like, where. We don't know where Mike Brown is going with this. Right. Is it. Is it Mitchell Robinson and Cat together from minute one? How much are they playing together? How much can you get out of Mitchell Robinson as. As your defensive anchor, rim protector and doing all the things that, that, that Towns does not. What happens when he's off the floor? They've got some stuff still, still to figure out. But I do think of it this way. Like, I, I think that there was a ceiling on the, on the seven seconds less Phoenix Suns, in part because your two best players were Nash and Amari, who were an absolute devastating Pick and roll combo. They're. This is not a great, that's not a perfect analogy, but like, there's some, you know, outline of a similarity there. And they had, you know, guys like Shawn Marion and, you know, Rajabel others to defend. Shout out to my real ones co host. But it felt like there was always a ceiling on how far the Suns could go because of defense. And it wasn't just because, oh, Mike d' Antoni doesn't practice defense. I don't know, it was like your two best players are basically all offense, no D. And where does that leave you? All right, so with that there, I think we're off to a nice start here. So let me just like, completely derail the conversation. We, like I said, we did not do the pod before the pod last night at dinner, but you did name check this duo. And I just want to throw them out there because they're at least intriguing, they're at least of interest. And I would feel incredibly remiss if we did not mention them. And since we're still at the bottom of our list, I'm going to feel okay about putting them there. So let's talk about Luca and LeBron.
- [18:17]
B
Okay. Not on my list, by the way.
- [18:23]
A
Yeah, I, I, I did not want to put them here, except it's freaking Luca Doncic like Luca and just about anybody even competent. And I'm not saying LeBron is only competent. Let's be very, very clear. Luca and even anybody competent as a co star or as a second player is going to be an awesome duo because Luca's awesome. And I know what we're talking about here is like, what is the, what ceiling can you create by two great players next to each other? That's the exercise. LeBron is, LeBron still was last year. He was still NBA. I know that the box score numbers and averages are much better than the advanced version. And they, they belie the fact that defensively he is regrettable at times, inconsistent. Inconsistent, That's a nice word. Luke and LeBron together, plus two per 100 last season and 567 minutes across 23 games. Not really overwhelming. Not great. By contrast, Luca and Austin reeves was a plus 6.5 points per 100. But Luka not healthy when he arrived. Luka and LeBron not a lot of time together. And there's this huge cloud over everything too now because, like, LeBron's taking photos in front of clipper banners and, and doesn't have an extension, nor does he have apparently the roster that he wants If Rich Paul's statement from a while back is to be taken at face value. So there's like a lot of weird just hanging over, right? I don't know what to make of it, but I do know that Prime LeBron and Prime Dwyane Wade took some time to figure out how to play off each other as two primary ball handlers who could score and playmake and do a lot of things at an elite level. This is a 40 soon to be 41 year old version of LeBron. It's different on its face, but he's still a devastating force out there. And he's playing alongside a newly slimmed down Luca, who is at any given time no worse than a top three player in the world. Advanced stats aside, points for 100 positions aside, LeBron's defense aside, Luca's defense aside, speaking of a duo that may not play much dark, I don't know, I just, I, I could not do this exercise without mentioning a duo that consists of a top three perennial MVP candidate currently and a former multiple, multiple time MVP who's still playing at an incredibly high level despite being 40.
- [20:48]
B
All fair. I had 10 honorable mentions and they cracked the 10 honorable mentions for the record.
- [20:57]
A
So you're not, you're not, you're not disrespecting them.
- [20:59]
B
I'm not a hater. I, I actually, I've been thinking more and more about the Los Angeles Lakers just as this like thought experiment and it seems like Luka in particular has really settled in. He obviously signed the extension he was recruiting. Marcus Smart, they gave him the rim rolling center that he did not have last year. And deandre Ayton, I think former number.
- [21:25]
A
One pick deandre Ayton. We are contractually obligated.
- [21:28]
B
Yes, of course.
- [21:30]
A
And you know, bought out by the Portland trailers.
- [21:33]
B
I don't, I don't think that this roster is like anything close to what he had in terms of just accentuating his abilities with the Dallas Mavericks the year that they went to the finals, or even you could say the year that they went to the conference finals in 2022 or yeah, 2022. Um, but it, again, it's like it's Luca and it almost like doesn't matter sometimes, like, I think, like people are kind of maybe forgetting just how special this guy is. And I think for me, leaving them off the list, a big part of it was, it was like defense was, was a factor for sure, but it was also just like their compatibility together and how these two players are able to get the best out of one another. And I don't. I think that that is going to be a struggle. And I'm not saying like there's one ball and this and that. That's really not it. It's just like, how do they directly complement one. Each other. Each other. Are they able to play fast together? Do they have to play in the half court primarily? Like, LeBron can't really set ball screens for Luca. That doesn't really make a lot of sense. So then what is he doing offensively when Luca has the. We know giving the ball to Luca and letting him kind of do whatever he wants is a recipe for success. That's not necessarily what you should do at all times. That's why the Dallas Mavericks went and got Kyrie Irving and that's how they reached the NBA Finals. Was kind of taking the ball out of Lucas hands a little bit. But he's so brilliant with it. He's the best pick and roll, smartest pick and roll playmaker one of I've ever seen. And he's good for 3:30 points efficiently in a season. Then it won't make you blink. So I feel like he's a little like, not overlooked. That's impossible based on the off season that he's had. But this guy is really, really good and he's like just entering his prime right now.
- [23:47]
A
So.
- [23:47]
B
Yeah.
- [23:48]
A
And I'm not one who's. Who's putting the Lakers in the contender category. I think a lot of things would have to break right for them and probably there'd have to be another move or two somewhere along the way here on the roster. But. But I do think we're kind of sleeping on the. On not sleeping on the Lakers, but sleeping on Luca on the Lakers. Like sleeping on. On the idea that, like, after a really weird season, that combined injury and this absolutely shocking trade that still in August is still hard to process that this even happened and how it happened and why it happened. The dude is amazing. He's an incredible player. And like, if there's a part of this, Michael, where I can't get like, I. It's hard to get past. And I don't think anybody should get past the LeBron Cloud that's hanging over everything. Right. And he put that cloud there. Rich Paul's statement did all of LeBron's Instagramming has. Has put a cloud there. We don't know what his mood is. If LeBron had showed up at Luca's extension press conference, if LeBron had not had Rich Paul issue that statement if LeBron were like fully embracing elder statesman on my way, you know, I'm, I'm easing out. You know, I may only have one year left with the Lakers. I might want to play longer. But hey, you know what? Maybe it won't be there. Like if there were, if he were handling this more gracefully is what I'm saying. And with, with some magnanimity and, and, and his, his and was projecting the idea that like, all right, I can now be the older Kareem to his Magic Johnson, whatever, whichever analogy you want to use, I would feel a lot better about what the Lakers prospects were this season. The fact that we don't really know where LeBron's head is at or that what we do know or seem to know points in a negative direction, I think does cloud even how we view the Lakers prospects this season. But there's a scenario here where if LeBron fully embraces Elder statesman secondary option, where Luke is now the focus. LeBron's an incredibly smart player, one of the smartest we've ever seen. It is still a great score. A great playmaker can lock in on defense if he needs to. At times there are some physical limitations when you get to 40, but whatever. Like, there's a version of this where if he's all in, even with maybe a flawed supporting cast, like, the Lakers could be really great, but I just don't know how much to believe in them when LeBron is in kind of the, the mental state or projecting the mental state that he is. So that's where I'm at. But I thought they had to be mentioned.
- [26:18]
B
No, that's great. And all of that LeBron stuff is definitely, I guess, like maybe that subconsciously is, was in my, my decision making process. I didn't actively think about it too much, but that is for sure projecting forward about this upcoming season. Like, and one of the duo members of this dynamic duo is kind of like, I don't want to be your teammate. Kind of like, that's, that's, that's a factor that should be discussed.
- [26:49]
A
So yeah. All right, number four, counting backwards on.
- [26:53]
B
Your top duos list, Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley did, did not ultimately put.
- [27:01]
A
Them on my list, but had them in my very high on my list of considerations.
- [27:07]
B
So we have first team, all NBA. Donovan Mitchell took a back seat last season, intentionally sacrificed his individual numbers for the greater good. It worked perfectly in the regular season. They were just, I mean, obviously the Cleveland Cavaliers were kind of runaway favorites to come out of the East. It didn't Work out that way in the postseason. Not for anything he did wrong. He was, he was incredible. He's one of the most explosive scorers in basketball. Again, scores at all three levels, has the pull up, three down, fearless and crunch time, can get to the rim when he wants. And I think just like Evan Mobley is, I'm just, I'm always forever enamored by him. And he's coming off a defensive player of the year season. He is, I feel like just beginning to crack his shell as a really high impact offensive player. We saw it in Burt's last year. I mean he was like very good for sure, like highly efficient. One of the better finishers around the basket. Just still needs to get a little bit stronger, I feel like. But in terms of how he reads the game and you know, decision making out of the pocket when he runs pick and roll with Donovan Mitchell because those two are usually the two on the court together with Darius Garland and Jared Allen kind of running tandem in Kenny Atkinson's rotation. He's just a kind of an ideal pick and roll partner in a lot of different ways for someone who is such a threat with the ball as Donovan Mitchell is. So I think like the we we saw it was evident last year that all the talk about Evan Mobley needs to shoot threes was a little bit overblown and he did shoot a little bit more, but it was not a focus of his game and I don't think it should be. And he should be in this upcoming season. I want to see him just get a little bit more stronger, more confident with his post up game, operating in space. And I think we should be able to see that. I don't see why not. So these two are really good together and when they were on the court together, they torched the NBA. So they're my number four.
- [29:31]
A
I think we have reached the first season since the Donovan Mitchell acquisition where we are not debating whether Garland and Mitchell are the right pairing. Right. Like that in itself is, is a, is a huge shift. I don't know if you were ever in that category yourself. I was skeptical from the moment they brought in Mitchell. Garland was just coming off his first all star appearance and the idea of like two smaller guards, neither of whom we're back, we're back to another, you know, duo that doesn't necessarily. Is not known for their defense. They have the luxury of, of, of of two incredible bigs behind them to take care of all that. But I, I was very skeptical of the, and this is the first season where we're going into where I'm like, okay, all right. Okay.
- [30:14]
B
Can, can I stop you right there? Have we seen it?
- [30:17]
A
All right, well, I mean, listen, the top line is the win total. What was, which was what, 64 last season?
- [30:25]
B
Yeah, a lot of wins.
- [30:26]
A
Yeah, a lot of wins. Is, isn't that enough or. All right, I'll ask you, should that be enough for us to put to bed whether Garland and Mitchell are the right pairing? You just, you just put them as your fourth best pairing in the NBA. So you're now.
- [30:39]
B
Well, Mobley and Mitchell. Let's get it. That's.
- [30:41]
A
Oh, you went Mobley. Excuse me, Moby Mitchell. I'm sorry.
- [30:46]
B
Garland is a whole different thing.
- [30:47]
A
Garland is a whole different thing. All right. So sorry. I, I, I allowed my brain to go down a second track while I, while, while we were talking. The, the Garland Mitchell thing, I felt has clouded the Cavs prospects for the last couple of seasons. Yeah, I felt like last season was the first time that that pairing, we have so many. That was the thing I was thinking about Cleveland, and I think ultimately why I didn't end up putting any of the pairings on this list was like, the strength of that team is like, you, you know, is the most important pairing. You know, Garland Mitchell. Mitchell Mobley. Garland Mobley. You know, throw Jared Allen if they're, if you want to. Just on a defensive side of it, there's, it like they have a lot of different combinations that make them great two man, three man, four man groups. And. But Mitchell Garland is where this whole thing starts. And so you're still skeptical that Mitchell and Garland, long term, or maybe not even long term, ceiling wise, is, is, is, is their best form.
- [31:52]
B
This is a finals or bust season for them. I think there's a lot of pressure on the Cleveland Cavaliers going into this year, and I think that if they come up short and do not reach the Finals or do not reach even the conference finals and aren't, I mean, if anything happens that has happened in terms of, like, how they bow out in the playoffs, like, sheepishly as they have this past year, as they did against the New York Knicks a few years ago, then, yeah, this quartet will for sure be broken up. I don't think, like, you can't have the most expensive payroll in the league, I believe, or one of, I mean, they're in the second apron.
- [32:32]
A
They've got, they've got serious second apron issues, and I feel like the clock has been ticking even on the payroll side of it. Forget the functionality but the payroll side of it has been hanging over there 100%.
- [32:40]
B
So you're going to see changes if they do not, we may see changes either way.
- [32:46]
A
Fair.
- [32:48]
B
But if, definitely if they do not put it all together and actually have a successful postseason run. And so my biggest question still is like, defensively, I just want to see Garland in particular hold up on the defensive end throughout a playoff run because I think that he is, I think he's one of the poorer defenders in basketball for someone of his stature. And, you know, whether it's we have to bench him and we're going to play Lonzo ball instead in crunch time or something like that, I just, I want to see what, how they adjust to, and adjust to his shortcomings on the defensive end. I think that's fair because we haven't seen it yet.
- [33:31]
A
According to Spot track, which, by the way, I finally have gotten like, I was never sure Spotrack, like Spoelstra Spotrack. Keith Smith, who I, I saw for the first time, met for the first time at summer league, informs me that it is, in fact spot track. So I'm.
- [33:47]
B
Thank you for clearing this up because this was an issue for me as well. I was confused.
- [33:51]
A
It's driven me crazy for years. I don't know why I always just assumed Spotrack, not because of sports, just. It does sound like that Spot Track sounds like a tracker for like places where you get a massage. Where should I go get a back rub? Oh, I don't know. Let's check spa track. Oh, there's one down the street on Smith. Cleveland has, according to Spot Track, the second highest total payroll going into this season behind the warriors. Warriors at 248 million plus, Cavs at 244. So one of the most expensive payrolls, followed by Minnesota, New York. Yeah, there are pressures there and expectations there. And I think with Cleveland and New York, we've already talked about a little bit. Like, given the absence of the Pacers due to Halliburton's hamstring, due to the absence of the Celtics due to Tatum's hamstring, the wide open nature of the east, like, both of those teams have huge. And considering their payrolls are both in the top four, huge, huge, huge pressure. And plus, you know, obviously the next firing their coach and bringing in Mike Brown. Huge. A lot of pressure on Mike Brown. Yeah, I, I, you know, the upside of being in the east right now is, hey, it looks like it's anybody's game. The downside is if you're Cleveland and New York in particular, it's kind of championship or bust, or at least Eastern Conference championship or bust. And I think the consequences for not winning could be rather extreme. So any other thoughts on, on your, your Mobley Mitchell duo before we move on?
- [35:25]
B
No, I'm looking forward to hearing who you got.
- [35:29]
A
All right. Continuing to move things around on the fly here, trying to figure out what my best order was and oh man, did I have a landmine here that I just, I, I'll, I'll just leave it for like the post discussion. Okay, I won't do it. Curry and Butler or Curry and Draymond. And I still, like, as I was going through everything this morning, like, Curry and Draymond are still incredible together by the numbers. And Curry and Butler were very, very good together in limited time. So I'm going to default to Steph and Jimmy. And this is one where all the caution flags are up, right? Guys who are in their, their mid to late 30s, you know, small ish sample size together, are they going to stay healthy? How many games will they actually get together? How many possessions over the course of the season like it is. You wouldn't stake your, your, you know, your, your fate on, on this if you could. Like, you're not, you're not building around late 30 somethings if you can help it, but this is who you've got. And I don't think there's anybody in the league that wants to deal with Steph and Jimmy together. I, I think as long as they are in fact upright on the court, healthy playing, I think they're going to be incredible. And so real quick, 529 minutes together. Last season, over 27 games, they were plus 5 for 100. So not dominant, but, but very good. Curry and Draymond, by the way, were plus 7.3. The warriors have long been about having really smart, intuitive players playing off of each other and obviously several other factors in that. But the, the reason that Steph and Draymond are great together is that sixth sense, that intuitiveness they have for each other and playing off each other and especially Draymond always knowing where Steph is at all given time, any given time. Jimmy has that same kind of basketball iq. And in their short time together, you could see just how intuitive it was, especially when all three of those guys were on the court together and the passing, the ball movement was phenomenal. And I love that, I love that style of play anyway, like, I am, I am just biased toward wanting to see teams that, that have great Ball movement, player movement. So. And then, you know, to the extent that Jimmy holds up, there's, you know, like that. That wing defense that they were missing or didn't have enough of at times over the last couple of years. Wiggins provided some of that for a while in spurts. And Jimmy can take on so much playmaking that when you need. If you want. Step off the ball or if you just want Steph on, you know, taking a rest, Butler can do it. And I don't know what their upside is. Right. Do they belong on a. On a literal top five duos for 25, 26. Maybe it's debatable. But the upside's there. And if I'm factoring in just how much fun they're going to be to watch and how much. How intrigued I am and how, you know, just what they could be together, I've got them there.
- [38:30]
B
I have no objection. They did not make my list. But I think that that is more just a testament to the number of ridiculously talented duos there are around the league.
- [38:44]
A
Sure.
- [38:44]
B
And also me trying to have the most interesting list possible for podcasting purposes on August 7th. So if you, like, were to ask me this if we were to redo this exercise in, like, November. Yeah, good chance that these two are going to be on the list, because they're incredible. Real quick, I did a. You mentioned Jimmy's iq, and I wrote this story about Nikola Jokic being, like, the smartest player ever last year. And for it, I used this website called Crafted NBA that has this algorithm that measures basketball IQ for every player in the league. And I threw it in the story because Jokic actually, like, broke the whole thing. Like, he was, like, so better than everyone else that it didn't even. He was like, he ranked as 100, but actually it was like 100 or something. And the other player who also broke the scale was Jimmy Butler. Like, those two were the smart. Ranked as the smartest players in the entire league. And when you watch Jimmy play, it is almost frustrating to a certain extent how committed he is to making the right read and making the right decision with the ball. Because you're like, just go to the basket, get to the free throw line, pull up from mid range, shoot that wide open. Three, like, all these different things you want him to do because he's so talented and, you know, and you've seen him, you know, play off Jimmy as this mythical figure who's come through time and time again, and you want to see him just average, like, 28, 29 points per game because you feel like he should be able to do that in his sleep and his brain just doesn't work that way. And it's more often for better. Um, because he seems like someone who's very fun to play with. He can, you know, he's very sacrificial and he has pretty much no weaknesses to him, in my opinion. You know, getting up there in age a little bit, you're seeing a little bit, you know, the physical limitations are happening here and there, but just an awesome player. And I don't really need to say anything about Steph Curry.
- [40:55]
A
Well, it's kind of like the same theorem as with Luka. Right. It's like it's Stefan and anybody even remotely good and, and, and you already have to pay attention. Right. And Jimmy's way better than remotely good. Yeah. I love the fact he doesn't, Jimmy doesn't force the issue. He doesn't force plays. He's, he's not, it's not just. I'm going to call my own number for the sake of it because maybe I'm the best offensive player out here, so I'm just going to, you know, drive it to traffic or, or you know, shoot contested pull ups. Like, it's just, it's not him. He's. He's almost always going to make the right play, but he did, he did bring that element that they really needed of somebody who can at times force the issue because he knows he's going to get fouled and he's going to get to the line and they, they need, they badly, badly needed somebody who could do that. So, yeah, like, there's an intrigue factor here that I, that I factored in that, that put them probably higher than might otherwise be merited, but so be it. All right, number three on your list.
- [41:47]
B
All right, here we're getting real spicy now, Howard. Here we go. Number three on my list is Victor Wembanyama. And Dear and Fox.
- [41:59]
A
On, on my longer list and decided not to force the, like Jimmy Butler. I didn't want to force the issue, but you did, so go.
- [42:08]
B
This is so. I'm looking forward to the 20, 25, 26 season. And I think that Victor Wembanyama will be a, like, universally seen as a top five player in the league. I think he will win defensive player of the year easily, maybe unanimously. And I think that watching him function with like he had Chris Paul last year, right. And Chris Paul was, you know, he's one of the best pick and roll playmakers Smartest basketball players we've ever seen. When those two were on the court together, the San Antonio spurs were freaking awesome on both sides of the ball. And I feel like you are just adding with Dear and Fox, who's obviously a better player than Chris Paul, you are adding this dynamism, this speed, this scoring ability and crunch time. All these things that make him so great offensively will accentuate and make Victor's life easier. And then I think Victor offensively, if he takes the steps that I think he can this year, he will make de' Aaron Fox's life so much easier as well. And I guess it all boils down to like, I just think Victor is going to wreck the league this year and I think the spurs are going to be awesome. And I keep thinking about how de' Aaron Fox is essentially going from Demonta Sabonis as his team's defensive anchor to Victor Wembanyama. And I want to see how that impacts his mentality on the defensive end and how serious he takes it because he's not going to have to guard the other team's like best or even second best player on most situations because of how they're built with, you know, Steph Castle is going to be on the court, so going to be on the court. They just have better defensive options out there. But I, I am curious to see just his intensity level as a two way player which I think can get really high back to what it was earlier in his career. And yeah, like, you know, they played five games together last year, 120 minutes. I just kind of, I'm kind of like throwing that out the window, to be honest with you. And I just, I'm. Yeah, I can't really like hyperbolize what I feel about Victor many. I think he's just so.
- [44:37]
A
Yeah. Good.
- [44:39]
B
And, and I wanted to put him high on this list. And his, his teammate, just his best teammate, just happens to be an all star caliber point guard.
- [44:49]
A
No. We could go right back to the, to the same theorem, right? Like Wimby and anybody should be pretty good. Wemby and Deer and Fox should be amazing. I only hesitated. There's, there were two reasons I hesitated with, with that one, as I was making my longer list and at one point, by the way, I think I told you I literally went through all 30 teams and then I have a list of just like my LOLs where it was just like, like what would be the Bulls duo. And I just, I laughed so hard that I just stopped and I moved on. But I Literally went through all 30 teams just to see what I, what, what would be the proposed pairing with the Spurs. Like I just. There's two things. One is we didn't get to see them much together so we're going on the concept of them and what the reality of them should be, but we're, we're having to kind of project a little bit. And two, I just think things are a little muddled with the emergence of Castle and the drafting of Harper and not being entirely clear on are the spurs their combination slow rolling it with the youth and yet at the same time trying to accelerate it by going out and getting Deer and Fox and like even with Chris Paul it wasn't. You weren't trying to win now. It was more like this is a great guy to kind of stabilize things and be an on court leader and a mentor and all this other stuff. And now. Yeah, I'm just, I'm just curious. They've got these three really talented guards at various stages of their career, two of whom are obviously toward the very beginning. I don't know, I just wasn't sure how, how to process what that will look like yet. But I absolutely, they should be on the list. And yeah, I can't, I can't wait. I can't wait to see and I, and I hope dear and Fox defensively is re energized by being with a functional franchise, to say nothing of one of the greatest defensive bigs we've seen in the, in modern times.
- [46:45]
B
So yeah, two quick things, Howard. One, I want to shout out Carter Bryant when I was mentioning the defensive players who could have an impact and limit Darren Fox's role on that end, I feel like as a rookie he will be in the rotation and he will also be awesome. Okay, number two, when you were going through your list of the 30 teams and the duos, where did Peyton Pritchard and Chris Boucher rank? I'm so curious to know.
- [47:15]
A
Wait, did the Celtics. You know what I did? So on some of these I just did like I, I typed Brown, Tatum and then I put the line through Tatum and then I put White question mark. I did like Halliburton, Siakam. I had to put the line through Halliburton. I had like Giannis slash Sadness.
- [47:31]
B
Yeah.
- [47:31]
A
Was what I wrote for the Bucks because I couldn't even come up with like who's Giannis and who like again Giannis and anybody should be really good. But I was like Giannis and like who's the second best player or the Second, most of it's probably Miles Turner.
- [47:45]
B
I had, I had turn, I had Yanis and turn it on my honorable mentions.
- [47:49]
A
Oh, okay. All right. I had Sadness also. Fair.
- [47:53]
B
Yeah.
- [47:56]
A
The LOL list was if you can.
- [47:57]
B
Get sadness on the mid level, like you got to do it, you know?
- [48:01]
A
You know, so I, and then of course, what is the funniest two man combo? And it's probably Michael Porter Jr. And Cam Thomas. But Cam remains unsigned, so we have to withhold that honor until that is resolved. All right. Number three for me. See, this is why I thought we'd go from one to five, because we know, because we're starting to get to like the really great teams, the really great duos. And those are the ones that are like so obvious that they almost don't need to be mentioned. Right.
- [48:35]
B
I actually just, I, I'm, I'm waiting with bated breath on who you pick. I have no idea.
- [48:41]
A
It's not Joel Embiid and Tyrese Maxey, but I was really tempted just so that was my landmine. I was going to throw in some at some point in the conversation. So now I've thrown the landmine. But no, it's not them. Shake. You'll just Alexander, Jalen Williams, J Dub. I mean, I, I, this is like so stupidly obvious that that's why I said like, like 1 to 5 would have been like because we could have just like checked off the first couple of these, I think, and then gotten into the ones where it's a little bit more of a judgment call. But I mean there's so much just obvious here. Let me just state all the obvious. One dude's the MVP and the other one's all NBA third team as a 24 year old and all defensive and they're both incredible two way players and they were plus 13 per 100 last season in a lot of minutes across a lot of games. Like, they're awesome. They can both kill you as scorers and as playmakers. They, they can lock you up defensively. They are young and have a ton of time ahead of them. They are both still improving. Jalen Williams just helped win a championship and had some, some incredible games along the way with a torn ligament in his wrist. There's. They're fun. They both seem like incredibly good dudes. They are about all the right things. And yeah, I mean we talked about this earlier when we were talking about templates for what a great duo has been historically. And you, you know, usually historically we had decades of like the, the guard, center, Combination or guard big. And we talked about, you know, wing, wing, you know, but not a lot of guard. Guard. I don't know where do you want to. Is JW a wing or a guard or whatever? Like, he, he's, he's where he played.
- [50:24]
B
Center last year for like two weeks.
- [50:26]
A
It's. Yeah. I mean, traditionally I think he would have been a shooting guard. Classified. But in today's NBA, it like his versatility is also one of his assets. So I don't know where you want to classify him. Who cares? They are amazing together. They're awesome, they're fun to watch. They, they have all the possibility in the world of, of winning more titles to come. Even in an era where it's really hard to sustain success. I, I was tempted to make them number one, but they are no worse than number two. And yeah, I'm on my list. By the way, I'm factoring the fact you got you and I both had Brunson and Cat in our top five.
- [51:04]
B
So you're making me eat my words a little bit because I also had SGA and Jalen Williams number two. I have a question though, because the compatibility issue is, was kind of front and center for me while I was doing this and I was going back and forth between that and just them obviously winning the title. You have the MVP. You have Jalen Williams who had a 40 point game in the finals. You have The Jordan Pippen, LeBron, Wade, Tatum Brown lineage that they're kind of stepping into. But then I thought about game four of the finals and watching those two in tandem just slice and dice in the fourth quarter. The Indiana Pacers defense, where Jalen Williams just kept setting ball screens for Shea Shay kept setting ball screens for Jalen Williams and they were getting good offense out of it in just an absolutely like critical on the road, must win situation where that entire game it felt like the Pacers were about to go up three 1. And their calmness in that environment working together was so impressive that it's just like this is clearly like the duo. And then the other thing in my head was like, should Chet be in Jalen Williams place? But then I was like, well, Jalen Williams is better. And I again, I went back to that game four and I was like, who was really working with Shea to get him those looks that eventually won that game and got him the finals MVP and won the championship? And so this was kind of a no brainer. I feel like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [53:02]
A
I mean, we're going to reach a point probably maybe as soon as this season where we're debating about the importance of Chet vs. Jalen as the second best player, player on their team. But I always lean toward the guy who you can put the ball in his hands and, and, and just get something done every time. Right? Like the, the advantage Jalen Williams will always have over Chet as, you know, as the, the co star there is, he's, he's a primary ball handler himself, you know, or a secondary ball handler, however you want to. If he needs to be the primary ball handler, he can be, he's somebody you can just hand it to and say, go get us something. Yeah. And the ability to create in today's NBA is so incredibly important. There's a previous version of the NBA where Chet as a versatile seven footer and rim protector and all the other things he can do might have been, you know, might have ranked higher. But I think having guys who can do everything with the ball in their hands and create for you is so incredibly important that I think Jalen's always going to have the advantage in this discussion. So.
- [54:05]
B
So I guess that leaves us with number one. And I guess we had the same number one.
- [54:09]
A
It was, I mean, it was too stupidly obvious not to. This is, this is, like I said, this is why we could have done it the other way, gotten the obvious ones out of the way. That's fine. Well, can I, I don't do it.
- [54:18]
B
I was, was there, is there a world where this is not obvious?
- [54:21]
A
Where it's not Jokic and Murray, you mean?
- [54:23]
B
Yeah, like I, I, I, I don't know. I guess like for me it is clearly, but like building the case against it doesn't feel impossible. Does that make sense? Like, okay, you have Jamal Murray, who is, you know, never made an all star team. You have back to back seasons of them bowing out in the second round of the playoffs. Both are, I think, you know, Jamal Murray is average at best defensively, but more often than not seen as the weak link on that unit. And then Jokic obviously has his issues defensively. I think he's better than everyone thinks, most people think, but has issues defensively for sure. So, like, there's a case to be made, I suppose. Did you consider that at all or did you just immediately, when you were doing this exercise, pencil them in at number one and not really think twice about it?
- [55:18]
A
Because I didn't actually put them in order initially anyway. I mean, I did like, look, truth is, as I'm looking at my screen, they were the, they were at the Top and then it was S.J. jalen. And then I was, you know, kind of just dicking around with the rest of it because those are the two that I didn't have to spend that much time to even think about. Like they were just. Those two pairings were so. Just glaringly obvious. I think if you're gonna try to make. So I think that would be the fun way of having the conversation then, right? Like if there's an argument against Yoko Chemuri, aside from Jamal Murray technically having never been all NBA or all all Star usually because of injury, but like also stacked Western Conference, yada yada yada. Like, sure, I, I don't know where the other hole in the case is. Availability again to Jamal. On the Jamal Murray side of it, there's an availability argument. Is there an argument just based on like if you took pairings at full health for a, a full month of games at any given time pre did a pretty regular season or playoffs and you just, and you just said which pairing do you would you rather have? Are we going to make an argument for Gildas Alexander and Jalen Williams over Yic Murray? Are we going to make an argument for Brunson and Cat? Are we going to make an argument for anybody? Like, no, I don't, I don't really as high on, on, on, you know, Mitchell and Mobley as you are, Wemby and Dear and Fox as you are. Like, as much as I love watching Jimmy and Steph, like where, where, like where is the argument to actually make of any pairing over Yokicha Murray? I don't, I don't know that there's an argument to be made if we want to go statistically. Like, you know, I mentioned the, the Thunder duo is plus 13 per 100. Yoko Murray last year were plus 11 per 100. But whatever. It's like, it's a couple points per 100 for two teams, two pairings that are just absolutely elite and will wreck you and th. Those numbers will vary over the course of a season or, or a playoff series, I suppose. And by the way, the Denver Nuggets to me have I think by far the best chance to knock off the Thunder. I don't mean that I think they're going to knock off the Thunder. I mean that of all the potential contenders in the West, I, I put them distinctly ahead of the Rockets, who everybody is just kind of like slow slid into the top three. They're. I think they will be top three regular season. But like the team I have the most faith in to potentially knock off the Thunder is Denver. And I don't really have a second place in that argument right now. I think the Rockets, there's a little bit of wait and see for me and I think some of the other teams that are in that big massive group between 3 through 8, 3 through 10, whatever it is, I think we're just going to have to see how some of this stuff plays out. But to me the Nuggets are the ones who I have my eye on.
- [58:09]
B
Yeah, it's August 7th, but I will probably be picking the Nuggets to win the NBA championship. Whenever we have to make those predictions heading into the season.
- [58:19]
A
I said the same to somebody last week. One of I mentioned I've been teaching and one of the students on the final day was just like, just was just like ask me anything. So like who's winning the championship? And I, I off the top of my head said Denver because I'm always in this era, I'm never going to pick anybody to repeat. I just the odds are so stacked against you to repeat and I think the Thunder can repeat, they should repeat. But it's hard to pick anybody to repeat. And yeah, if I had to right now I'd say Denver.
- [58:43]
B
Yeah. So one I think like their greatness, it transcends statistical accumulation and measurement. But there were 199 two man combinations that played at least 1000 minutes together last season and none had a higher offensive rating than Jamal Murray and Nicole Jokic. 127 points per 100 possessions.
- [59:09]
A
Stupid.
- [59:11]
B
But it's more just like the self sufficiency thing like I mentioned at the top where it's just like I don't care who is around these two. Like they had Russell Westbrook in a bunch of those lineups, you know what I mean? Like, like Zeke Naji in some lineups like they are, they made Christian Brown look. I mean he's a very good player in his own right. I don't mean to, to belittle him but made him look very good. Like just there's just such a brilliance about the like telepathy these two have playing together and they're so harmonious and it's so beautiful to watch and they always get a good shot for either one of them two or one of their three teammates. And just watching since they won the title a few years ago how the league has tried to adjust to their two man game and then they are able to adjust to the adjustments and still be so successful. It is like it's just Beautiful. I love watching the Denver Nuggets. I probably watch them more than any team because of Jokic. And this two man game when it's cooking is just completely unstoppable and will.
- [60:17]
A
Be even more so because while we sit here and talk about duos and sometimes it's kind of like, hey, it almost doesn't matter who's around them. Obviously it always matters who you've got. And part of what's held the Nuggets back the last couple years was just that slow attrition on the roster. And now you reload. You've got Jonas Valentunas who apparently is going to play for them after all, and, and help keep Jokic fresh, and Cam Johnson replacing Michael Porter Jr. Which as I mentioned on Zack Spot recently, I think, I think Cam Johnson's an upgrade. I know there's all kinds of ways to slice this stuff and maybe trade offs and, and height and other things, whatever. Cam Johnson to me is an upgrade. Tim Hardaway Jr. I've never been like a huge Tim Hardaway Jr. Guy, but you know, volume three point shooter who's going to be playing with plenty of space to work off of those two guys and we'll get the best three point attempts of his career probably. And Bruce Brown is back. Like they've just, they're deeper than they were. They won't be relying on Zachi or Russell Westbrook for that matter. They're going to be that much stronger, I think throughout the season and just throughout a game as, as we're cycling through guys and Aaron Gordon obviously still there. I, I, there's, there's, there's no great argument against Yokoish Murray is the best duo in the league and I think there's no great argument against the Nuggets as being the single biggest threat to the Thunder's reign.
- [61:38]
B
Okay, I have two questions, actually, I have a question and then I want to read you my honorable mentions and then we can go. Where would Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown be on this list if they were healthy?
- [61:53]
A
Oh yeah, you would. You would do this to me.
- [61:59]
B
I know.
- [62:01]
A
I mean, listen, it's what the people want to hear.
- [62:04]
B
Everyone's been waiting with bated breath this whole podcast to know what Howard thinks about Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown. Hypothetically.
- [62:13]
A
And pre Achilles, obviously. Like where Adam had made it through the season healthy. No worse than. Third on this list, I think. Right. No worse than. And I'd be tempted to put them ahead of SGA and Jalen only because of size and length and kind of the similar, like they could beat you at both ends. We could start, you know, ticking off which guy is a little bit more skilled than the other. You know, Tatum versus Shay or Jalen versus Jalen. Chilling with the Y versus Jalen without the Y. But they're both, they're both duos that have incredible two way ability and that can just beat you so many different ways. And one of them happens to be much, much bigger. And size still matters in today's NBA. So I would say no worse than third. And I might give them a slight edge over SJ and Jalen. But like you kind of default to the, to the pairing that just won the championship.
- [63:18]
B
Yeah, I think to me it's a bit of a coin flip and it's really hard to parse because of how good both duos supporting casts have been. Yeah, because when I look at the Oklahoma City Thunder, even though SGA won mvp, deservedly amazing season, when I think about this team, that team that won the title, I will always think about their defensive identity and defense being the reason that they won the championship. Defense being the reason that they won so many regular season games and just mow down the rest of the league and how that team was built. Now that roster is built and Jalen Williams is a huge part of that. And Shea is not a bad defender at all, but he's not like a all defensive team candidate at all either. So I think, I think that that is. And then you have Boston where it's like everybody can shoot threes cool like very well. And when they won the title and it was just one of the best offenses we've ever seen. So yeah, so it's hard to, it's hard to kind of take both all four players out of their environments and measure them. So I think I would just flip a coin to be honest with you.
- [64:30]
A
Yeah, it is a coin flip. And out of respect for all of the above, it's really hard to rank them versus each other. But you know, that's what we decided to do. So before we get to your honorable mentions, and this will lead right into your honorable mentions, I'm just sitting here still in shock that you did not go to the Trey and Jalen Johnson, given your fondness for Jalen Johnson or the Wagner Banchero pairing, especially given your just absolute adoration, adulation, all kinds of other Asians for the Orlando Magic who I'm also shocked that you did not just predict to win the 2026 championship. But I, I the disrespect you're showing for some all time like peanut favorites here is. Is. It's just knocked me off my chair.
- [65:21]
B
Look, they, they made the honor. Both those duos made the honorable mentions list.
- [65:26]
A
I hope they were high on the honorable mentions. Was the honorable mission list ranked or was that just like amorphous?
- [65:30]
B
It's pseudo ranked. I. I won't say it's ranked. No, I can't. But they're both on there and I have a lot of love for them both. And that might be the conference finals. Easter conference finals. Probably know those two go, those four going at it, you know, back and forth.
- [65:47]
A
If so there will be hell to pay in Cleveland and New York.
- [65:49]
B
Yeah, there will. Heads will roll. So real quick. I had Luca and LeBron Kawhi and James Harden.
- [65:56]
A
I had them on my longer list. Yeah.
- [65:58]
B
Net rating 14.1 last year in 882 minutes. Very good. Very good.
- [66:05]
A
Wow.
- [66:07]
B
Anthony Edwards and I had Rudy Gobert instead of Julius Randall.
- [66:11]
A
I feel like that's a. I was playing with those. Yeah.
- [66:14]
B
Yeah. Paolo and Franz, Steph and Jimmy. John Morant And Jaren Jackson Jr. You know, showing them some love.
- [66:21]
A
Had them there.
- [66:23]
B
I had Giannis and Sadness.
- [66:27]
A
Giannis and Turner actually made your list.
- [66:29]
B
Yes. Trae Young and Jalen Johnson. I had him beat in Paul George and you said Tyrus Maxi and I was like, you're actually correct. He's the, he would be the person there. Paul George is just like a sad third wheel at this point.
- [66:43]
A
Yeah.
- [66:44]
B
And then I had KD and Shengoon, which is just like I couldn't take seriously, but I had to throw the two best players on the Houston Rockets.
- [66:52]
A
So not KD and Amen Thompson because that was the one I played with momentarily.
- [66:56]
B
Oh, that's interesting. I still, I'm, I think that Shangoon is still the second best best player. But again, if you. We were to do this like at Thanksgiving, right, when we've seen what a.
- [67:07]
A
Man came back from the summer with. Right. Like we're all. And this is the, you know, obviously the, the challenge of some of these exercises, right. Like we're all expecting another leap from Amen Thompson. And if it happens, and depending on how quickly it happens and how big that leap is and what it entails, there's absolutely a scenario where he's their best player and certainly their best player under 30. And the idea of Amen and Kevin Durant as two apex wing types who can do a ton of stuff with the ball in their hands. And, and you know, Durant maybe not as much defender as he once was but still can can, you know, can certainly, you know, give you a lot at that end. Those two together, all that length, all that height, all that ball handling, all that scoring. I played with it but I don't know what Durant's gonna have for them next season, how many games, injuries, everything else. And, and you're. You're probably right that on paper right now it's still Shengun over Amen Thompson. But I expect that to flip. But until we see it, maybe we shouldn't assume.
- [68:10]
B
Did I miss anyone like Bam and Hero? Maybe I just like I didn't.
- [68:15]
A
Yeah. I don't know. Whatever.
- [68:17]
B
We're getting real long list there.
- [68:19]
A
No, I like when I was doing like the all 30 who were their best pairings and got down to my like LOLs eventually I did have Hero Bam on the kind of the initial just first pass I had Scotty Barnes slash somebody.
- [68:35]
B
Just the, the, the, the Brandon Ingram hatred. I mean it's not hatred.
- [68:41]
A
I just. All right. Never healthy. Not sure I actually want him as my, as my wingman type considering his, you know, general ball dominance and just. I don't know. I, I'm, I, I'm not, I'm not confident in the idea of him as, as the co star. How about that?
- [68:58]
B
Okay, fine.
- [68:59]
A
Zion SL Jordan Pool. Lol. God, that's a, you know, that's a.
- [69:05]
B
Great place to end this episode. I feel like he can't do any better than that. That's it right there.
- [69:11]
A
There's.
- [69:12]
B
That's the curtain call.
- [69:13]
A
Yeah. That really, that really is it. We don't need to go to the rest of my lol. I don't need to insult more teams and more players. All right. This has been a blast, PETA. Thanks man. It was a great idea. We had a great dinner in addition to the great pod and the great idea. This was fun. You got something coming soon. Sounds like on the ringer.com I probably do not. I'm waiting on some things but those things are probably not going to happen before I get on a plane to go fly to an island somewhere. So my stuff will be back somewhere later in the month. Peanut stuff will be back soon and we will be back on this channel before too long and thanks everybody. Have a great summer.