Trade Deadline Extravaganza: Giannis Stays Put, the Tankers Load Up, and Much More

Summary

Trade Deadline Extravaganza: Giannis Stays Put, the Tankers Load Up, and Much More

The Ringer NBA Show – Group Chat
Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann
Date: February 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special Trade Deadline Extravaganza edition of Group Chat dives deep into the busiest, weirdest NBA trade deadline in years. The hosts cut through the chaos, breaking down the day's dizzying flow of deals—why title favorites like the Bucks kept Giannis, why a flurry of tankers loaded up for the future, and how shockwaves from moves by the Clippers, Pacers, Wizards, Jazz, Bulls, and many more will reshape the league. With analysis, reporting, and classic Ringer banter, Justin, Rob, and Kyle touch on all the major moves, contextualize their meaning, and speculate on what comes next.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The Nature of a Trade Deadline ‘Extravaganza’

• The hosts joke about what makes an episode an "extravaganza," with Jay Kyle noting, “At the point where Tyus Jones has been traded to four different teams in the last 24 hours, that’s an extravaganza in my book.” (01:21)
• They describe the day's moves as dizzying and unusual, commenting on how a typically frenzied last hour was “a day for the tankers” (Justin, 01:29).

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2. Giannis Stays Put: The Biggest Non-Move

• Giannis Antetokounmpo remaining in Milwaukee was the headline—precisely because no trade happened.
  • “It ended up being the biggest lack of news on the day.” — Justin (04:38)
• The hosts dissect Giannis’ social media flip-flopping and speculate whether Milwaukee’s front office attempted to “show Giannis that we put forth a good effort, but we actually never wanted to trade” (Justin, 04:38).
• Kyle on Giannis’s manner: “Refusing to commit to literally anything at all for fear of being a bad person or persuasive. I simply don’t believe it.” (05:29)

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3. Clippers–Pacers: Zubac, the Lottery, and Tanking Calculus

• The Pacers trade for Ivica Zubac, sending a lottery-protected 2026 1st to the Clippers, who are beginning their pivot away from the Harden/Kawhi era.
  • Justin: “They weren’t resigned to being old, which is always nice to see” (09:14)
  • The pick protections (protected 1–4 and 10–30, only going to LA if it lands 5–9) create wild lottery drama: “It’s like trying to catch a ping pong ball when you’re in the middle of a tornado.” — Jay Kyle (12:46)
• The Pacers’ boldness: Both sides get praise for their willingness to act before decline sets in or windows close (10:19–11:28).
• Zubac’s fit: All hosts agree he’s a “good and balanced a five as they were going to be able to find” and can help Indiana be “top 10 both sides of the ball” if Halliburton stays healthy (17:06–17:58).

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4. Clippers–Cavs–Harden/Garland Shakeup

• Cleveland swings a major deal, sending out Darius Garland and bringing in James Harden to appease Donovan Mitchell.
  • Jay Kyle: “Pretending that the status quo was okay wasn’t going to be good for anyone involved there.” (19:22)
  • The hosts debate the wisdom of prioritizing the Mitchell window now versus the Garland/Mobley future, with Justin “a little flaccid on this” (19:40) and Rob making a JLo–Harden metaphor: “You’re not going to grow old with James Harden. Embrace it.” (21:01)
• Long-term uncertainty for both teams as injury-prone Garland is “prime of his career” (22:34) but risky, and Harden is a short-term bet.

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5. Anthony Davis and Trae Young to Washington: All-Stars on a Tanking Team

• The Wizards surprise by taking swings on both AD and Trae Young—moves that “just kind of put me on my butt” (Justin, 29:08).
• Wizards’ plan: Compete now, but also retain lottery flexibility—every scenario hinges on their precarious lottery position and the fate of their upcoming picks.
• Jay Kyle: “The cost was zero… they got these guys for free.” (33:24)
• Key hosts’ skepticism: “What is the ultimate goal… in this one or two year zone?” (Justin, 34:13), but also, “if they just luck into Darren Peterson tomorrow, everything changes.” (36:42)

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6. Mavericks Hit Reset, Move Off Anthony Davis

• Dallas moves on from the failed Davis era to fully build around Cooper Flagg, who’s been a breakout rookie.
• “This, to me, feels like an acknowledgment of that fact. … Just rip off the bandaid, hope for the best, and believe in the fact you can actually build something if you give yourself the opportunity.” — Jay Kyle (44:55)
• Cap flexibility and picks acquired in the deal give Dallas an exit from the second apron and a path forward after years of feeling stuck.

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7. Utah Jazz Pivot: Jaren Jackson Jr. Arrives

• Jazz secure Jaren Jackson Jr., forming a giant frontcourt with Lauri Markkanen and Walker Kessler.
• “This could be an enormous team. You just hope they play like an enormous team.” — Jay Kyle (49:05)
• Three first-round picks is a hefty price, and the lack of a true superstar parallels the post-Gobert/Mitchell era (Justin, 53:33), yet Keonte George’s development is a silver lining.

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8. Grizzlies Tear It Down

• Jaren Jackson Jr. traded, followed soon (expected) by Ja Morant.
• Haul is mostly “coleslaw and olives,” as Justin jokes, not a blue-chip centerpiece (60:19).
• “They’re still missing their roadmap,” says Rob, but the pivot was overdue.

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9. The Bulls Finally Pick a Direction

• Chicago trades key young guards (Kobe White, Ayo Dosunmu), loads up on second-rounders, brings in Jaden Ivey and Anfernee Simons.
• Justin: “I actually like betting low on Ivey… might have the downhill attack combo guard that is a higher level than what White and Dosumu will get.” (62:01)
• Rob pushes back: “They just have this swath of supplementary guards who present as primary guards.” (64:22)
• White to the Hornets and Ayo to the Wolves earn praise as good fits with new teams, while Bulls fans are left frustrated but perhaps relieved that something happened.

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10. Notable Under-the-Radar & Fringe Deals

• Kuminga to Atlanta: “I think Kuming could be a good Hawk. I’m just caught off guard by even having to consider the possibility.” — Jay Kyle (76:04)
• Luke Kennard to Lakers: “The Lakers now have more edgy white guys than a Portland brewery.” — Justin (78:26)
• Buyout Market/Basement-Level Players: Discussion of Cam Thomas’ failed push for a trade: “You need to really just glom onto a winning situation to prove you could play reserve minutes,” says Justin (82:17). Best fits? Magic, Wolves, Rockets, maybe Boston, or Golden State (83:33).
• Vucevic to Boston: Seen as a sneaky, sensible move to provide big-man depth, passing, and spacing—“there’s a comfortability there, especially if he could help on the boards.” — Justin (84:17)
• Jared McCain to OKC: A quietly sharp move for a team lauded for player development, suggesting “they have a high hit rate because of the range of things Cooper Flag can do.” — Rob (43:28, 86:14)
• Jose Alvarado to Knicks: Minimal cost, but brings “just real pep” for a team needing depth during injury stretches (88:33).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Pacers tanking boldness:
  “The Pacers doing this and basically leaving it up to the lottery gods… is unlike anything I’ve ever seen before.”
  — Justin (10:19)

• On Cleveland’s Garland–Harden pivot:
  “You’re not going to grow old with James Harden. Embrace it. Bring him in.”
  — Rob (21:01)

• On the cost for Washington’s swing:
  “They got these guys for free.”
  — Justin (33:24)

• On the Mavs moving on from Davis:
  “Luka is always going to be the one who got away or really was given away. That’s never going to change.”
  — Jay Kyle (44:55)

• On the Jazz’s new identity:
  “This could be an enormous team. You just hope they play like an enormous team.”
  — Jay Kyle (49:05)

• On the Grizzlies’ asset haul:
  “This package, this platter, is a lot of coleslaw and just a bunch of olives and all this other stuff… it's just leafy greens on a plate.”
  — Justin (60:19)

• On Bulls’ change at last:
  “It’s a transition point at bare minimum. Even just moving on from the Vučević era is kind of meaningful.”
  — Jay Kyle (66:54)

• Comedy moment—Kennard to the Lakers:
  “More edgy white guys than a Portland brewery.”
  — Justin (78:26)

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Important Timestamps

• Giannis drama & social media (04:38–06:58)
• Clippers–Pacers trade breakdown (07:56–12:46)
• Clippers–Cavs swap: Harden for Garland (19:22–27:00)
• Wizards land Trae Young & Anthony Davis (29:08–37:39)
• Mavs pivot from Davis, build for Flagg (39:41–47:07)
• Jazz get Jaren Jackson Jr. (47:07–53:33)
• Grizzlies start their teardown (57:28–60:42)
• Bulls shake it up, send White and Dosunmu away (61:11–66:54)
• Kuminga to Atlanta (74:38–77:00)
• Luke Kennard to Lakers, Cam Thomas buyout prospects (77:57–83:18)
• Vucevic to Boston (84:17–85:20)
• Jared McCain to Thunder (86:06–87:38)
• Jose Alvarado to Knicks (88:10–88:57)

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Summary & Takeaways

• This was a deadline defined less by superstars switching teams than by pre-tanking, shaken title windows, and aggressive early positioning for future flexibility and lottery drama.
• Major player movement reflected a new ruthlessness among front offices—Clippers and Mavs cut stars loose before terminal decline, Pacers and Wizards swung hard at upside, and the Bulls, finally, picked a lane.
• Iconic quotes and classic Ringer banter reinforced the truly unpredictable and often surreal nature of NBA trade season.
• For fans of the teams covered, the deadline offered both hope in the form of bold moves and realism in the face of hard, uncertain futures.

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Transcript

[Jay Kyle]

Foreign.

[Justin Barrier]

Hello and welcome to this Trade Deadline Extravaganza edition of Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier, joined as always by Rob Mahoney. Jay Kyle. Man, the energy just coursing through us. At least that's like maybe caffeine, because I haven't eaten in like 10 hours, but it's something.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah, a lot of caffeine, very little food, very little sense of where we are or everyone in the NBA is like the flowchart of what happened today. I. I find absolutely dizzying.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, a lot of stuff going on. I'm pretty well fed. I had some chili, so I'm sitting back feeling good, but as per usual, feeling feeling well fed. What constitutes an extravaganza? Do we need to have like some kind of circus performer come in in the middle of the. I don't know. I've always wondered that. Or do we just need to sort of be. Be in a more entertaining mood? Explain that one, too, because Rob's got his arms out in a Rylo Kylie shirt. I think that's already enough to constitute an extravaganza. But what do you guys.

[Justin Barrier]

That bumps us up from a bonanza, which we tend to do.

[Jay Kyle]

That's true.

[Justin Barrier]

At least when we forget to change it up to an extravaganza. Yeah, palooza. We do some paloozas, too.

[Jay Kyle]

I think at the point where Tyus Jones has been traded to four different teams in the last 24 hours, that's an extravaganza in my book.

[Justin Barrier]

Yes, a lot of just middling veterans got traded in that last hour. Pretty much was pretty docile at the end there, outside of the big old Visa Zubot trade going to the paces. We'll talk about that. But overall, this was a day for the tankers we were expecting. Like maybe we get a Giannis, some team just rips the cord, a contender and just goes all out and gets him for the stretch run here instead, it was the worst teams in the league trading for next year in the hopes that they could do their business a little bit earlier, which is odd. I don't remember anything like that, Rob.

[Jay Kyle]

I think we're gearing into that stage clearly, like the Raptors were among the teams that did it last season. There's. There's clearly an appeal, especially if you aren't anticipating having cap space or you don't see your franchise as a player in the summer in that particular way. Why not take the chance now? Why not trade for the guy on the team who may be a little bit expendable? Because, you know, the Clippers aren't thinking much of their season. Why not trade for an injured star if honestly, you're looking to tank the rest of the season anyway? Like, you can, you can kind of serve all of your objectives at once if you just strike early enough and you honestly find whoever's available to be appealing. Like that's, that's the trick with the Anthony Davis types I think, is like, can you talk yourself into the risk reward of Anthony Davis? Because if it pays off for the Wizards, I think it's going to be a really nice bit of business for them. It's just the risk is considerable.

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[Rob Mahoney]

I mean that one. That's sort of the dizzying nature of the trade deadline, but well, go ahead.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, I want to just just check off the honest box before we get anywhere else. If only because this was the. The biggest news, and it ended up being the biggest lack of news on the day when it all kind of just fell apart. Toward the end there, when Shams alerted everyone that this wasn't going to happen, my conspiracy theory was that, like, this was just all a big show to show Giannis that we put forth a good effort, but we actually never wanted to trade for you or trade you if. Because in the. In the offseasons, as we've been saying for months now, there just will be more opportunity there. Having said that, we got a very odd tweet from Giannis suggesting that now he wants to add to his run in Milwaukee, which seems to be a reversal of what he said, like, yesterday to the Athletic and a couple other outlets. So this is a big old mix. I don't know where to. To really I stand with Giannis overall.

[Jay Kyle]

You're telling me Giannis is on both sides of these issues, like, refusing to commit to literally anything at all for fear of being a bad person or persuas. I mean, that's. That's crazy to me, Justin. I simply don't believe it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Rob, I have a question for you. And because you're the Prestige TV guy, do you think that this. Today, Giannis's social media activity, what is. Was it the. Was it the equivalent of Harper's gating the fund email with someone typing it up?

[Justin Barrier]

Was.

[Rob Mahoney]

Was Giannis's social media manager today, as he. As he rattled off the tweets, which is, you know, don't chase or whatever it is that he wants. I forget what the exact wording was. Or the. Even though, you know, the pencil tweet just. Is that the equivalent. Do you think that he was, like, overpowering? Because I felt like the social media strategy today is probably in the cringe hall of Fame if. If it were up to me, first.

[Jay Kyle]

Ballot, as far as I'm concerned. And this is where I. I would be very surprised if Giannis has a social media manager. Maybe someone out there technically has that title, but the things that he puts out in the world are not things anyone would be paid to do, including this, like, again, just super weird for Giannis and the Bucks, we should say it's kind of like on all sides of this to pretend as if none of what's been happening over the last, like, I don' 6, 8, 12, 24 months has been happening. We've all been here. Like, it's not just smoke. Like, these are real stories. There was real interest. There were real attempts by the Bucks to Trade Giannis, he pushed at various points to be off the team. Why are we pretending anything else? Like, why are we trying to be cute about this?

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. I still can't track down whether or not he requested a trade because then it sounded like he had implied for months was the reporting that he was open to being moved or wanted to be moved. And so just his emotions about this seemed to change on a dime. So I guess it's not surprising that nothing ended up happening because this keeps flipping over and over again. So Giannis stayed put. John Morant stayed put as well. Also, another expected one. I think the one we need to start with here is Visa Zubac, because this was like the big splash, right? As, like the, the last hour or so was kind of unfolding here. I was not expecting this. I know he'd been in rumors, I think, to the Celtics early on when they, when the Clippers were struggling. But it just seems like the Clippers, even though they are conservationists in terms of trees, they didn't mind cutting down perhaps the hottest team in the NBA in order to at the very least turn the page to something else like some of these other tankers are doing.

[Jay Kyle]

I see what you did there. I. I appreciate what you're attempting to do.

[Justin Barrier]

Was it funny?

[Jay Kyle]

Was it good? I wouldn't. I'm not going to go that far.

[Rob Mahoney]

But always a good, always a good spot to end up. If you're asking blatantly was it funny?

[Jay Kyle]

It was SM funny. Not haha funny.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay, I'll take it.

[Jay Kyle]

But look, the, the, like, the clarity we're seeing from the Clippers, not something we see often enough in the NBA. Too many teams talk themselves into, like, their midseason run and be like, okay, why not us? Why couldn't we have some momentum here? Why couldn't we figure this out? But I think the combination of James Harden's contract not positioning him to be with the team for the long term and the Clippers not wanting to invest in him in the long term and everything in terms of the writing on the wall with Kawhi's ongoing health concerns. Right. He's healthy now, he's available now. He's great now. What about tomorrow? What about a month from now? What about two months from now? There's just way too many questions and way too many variables for the Clippers, even at their absolute best, to feel confident that they're going to continue to be at their absolute best. And so, so long as that's true, all. Everything should be on the table. Including a Vita Zubots, who's been one of their most rock solid players over the last several years. An incredibly useful center in a variety of ways, which I'm sure we're going to get into from the Pacers side. And leaves a gigantic hole behind him as far as like what the Clippers are going to do with all this the rest of the way.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. So they weren't resigned to being old, which is always nice to see from anyone from a team or from a person. I think it's interesting sort of the influx of. So they go out and they, they add. They. They've managed to add some speed and some vigor, you know, as. Whereas we've talked all season about how they were, you know, slower. I'm sure we'll talk about the Garland, you know, Harden situation, what that's going to look like. But they go out and they get Mather and the thing that really, that, you know, stuck out to me on the Pacer side of this is that Zubots is going to add, you know, they, they are in the position to it depending on how Zubots plays down the stretch of this year. The pick is really the thing that I was eyeballing it because I start. When I first saw the 2026 thing, I was like that. Surely that's not just straight up there. But we were texting about how this is protected 1 through 4, then we have the gap in the 5 through 9 gap and then 110 through 30, it's protected. So depending on how the home stretch of this goes, you know, it's going to make for a really interesting draft lottery night. Pins and needles. Draft lottery night. Because the Pacers go ahead.

[Justin Barrier]

No, I think this is the ballsiest move that I can remember probably on both sides in a very long time. Because in the Clippers you have a team actually getting out in front of the inevitable decline and actually hitting the button button sooner than later when we've seen so many teams basically, wait, wait, wait until John Moran just doesn't have any value here. They just got ahead of it. They got rid of Harden and followed it up immediately with Zubot, which I thought was very smart of them. We'll see how Kawhi thinks about that. I mean, he's playing his best basketball of his career. But I guess to Rob's earlier point, like, there's still a long way to go between where they are in sixth place in the West. So that makes sense, the Pacers doing this and basically leaving it up to the lottery gods or just like how Much they're going to now tank over the second half of the season is unlike anything I've seen before. On the one hand, they could end up with Zubotra I think is a great fit alongside a healthy Halliburton team. Yeah, just, just from like a starting point. But if they then still tank end up with the top three pick, they could add an AJ Debons to all of this. And so on lottery night, this could basically be like a dynasty or not. Is really hanging in the balance.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah, they're easily the most exciting part of the tank race from here on out. And some of that is because, yes, like right now they are well positioned to potentially keep this pick. I would think that they're probably going to slide a little bit in the lottery. Odds not in the standings, rise in the relative order, rise in the relative standings because when you think about who the bad teams in the league are right now the Pacers may be tied for the third best lottery odds, but Washington is going to be shutting down AD and Trey Young, presumably they're going to be leaning into being as bad as possible. Dallas needs to be worse. They need to cash in on this pick specifically this year. So I would think we can count on them to be worse. Memphis without Jaren Jackson Jr. Will definitely be worse. Brooklyn, honestly just getting started as far as what they're capable of tanking wise. So there is like a real sweet spot here where and we should say if you're not familiar with pick protections, basically all this means is the only way the Pacers keep the pick is if it's between the fifth and the ninth pick in the draft. Like a very delicate needle to thread. And I think what's even weirder because we've seen complicated pick protections before. Something I've never seen before is if it does end up protected and the Pacers keep their pick this year, it kicks into a unprotected first five years from now to the Clippers. I've never heard of anything even remotely on that timeline before. With protection.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's pretty wild if you think about like a. There's the. There the. There's the volatility of how these teams are going to play down the stretch. And then there's just the way the ping pong balls are going to go, period. So this is just like trying to catch. It's like trying to. The odds of like catching a ping pong ball when you're in the middle of a tornado. Like the odds of it, you know, going great for the Clippers Here I, I, But I think that, that leaving that, that unprotected gap between, you know, five and nine was extra. It was a smart move to sort of incentivize the Clippers to do it, I think, to compensate a little bit on the fact that Oklahoma has their pick. Oklahoma. I, I feel like Oklahoma City, I feel like during this whole deadline have like, stealthily been. They could end up being winners, which they have a knack for doing this. But I just think that the, the way some of these things could play out, I could see, I could see them kind of, you know, down the stretch here, down the road here, coming away from this as, as somebody who just played it smart without really doing a whole lot.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. Sam Presti always moves in silence. I think we did a piece last year or two years ago on the ringer about, like, what activity level each GM has had historically at the deadline. Presti, historically one of the people that sits on his hands and just waits for the off season and then does his business there. They did get Jared McCain, which is different, but we'll, we'll talk about that later on. I. So I think as a side kind of tangent to this deal and a lot of what the Tankers did, I think the biggest matchup I'm looking forward to over the second half isn't like OKC spurs or Detroit Pistons versus the Knicks. It's more about these tanking teams in the NBA and the NBA potentially forcing these teams to play A lot of the All Stars that actually are in air quotes, hurt, or are they hurt? And like, because there was this rule, they made a very hard line about that if you were a recent All Star, you're expected to play these guys. And I think for that reason, that's why the Wizards haven't ruled Trey Young out for the entire year.

[Jay Kyle]

Sure.

[Justin Barrier]

But for a lot of these teams, draft picks are on the line, so you assume that they want to keep out Jaren Jackson, Zubotch, all these other guys. But is the NBA just going to just, like, allow this to happen when it's so blatant that they need the picks in order to make this all work for them?

[Jay Kyle]

I mean, I don't think it's going to be enforced very strongly because how can, like, there's so much murky gray area between why guys are sitting and when and for how long. And, like, I don't even know how you legislate that stuff because we've seen the league try and it just doesn't work very well. And with a team like the Pacers, again, they're so heavily incentivized to be as bad as possible to try to keep this pick. I don't think they're going to be good enough to be in that, you know, the 10 plus range. In terms of the odds, I should say, I think I in explaining it flipped it in terms of what causes the Pacers to keep the pick. They need to be bad. Like they need to be as bad as they possibly can. Will that happen to a satisfying degree? I don't know. But I, I applaud their willingness to not get cute with the two timeline stuff. To not try to say like, oh we're just going to draft a young player and put all our eggs in our own unprotected pick. Like, try to have your cake and eat it too. Try to get a Vita Zubots as you said, jv and potentially get a pick in that sweet spot where you're able to add someone of, of real value to your team.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I would love to see Kevin Pritchard's board because clearly he's indicating that he thinks that 5 through 15 is, is flat. Maybe even 5 through 20. I don't know, I'd be curious to see which to me, speaking for myself, that, that, that range, if they get, it's the difference between if they, you know, the one through four. Basically you're going to get a playoff level rotation guy who maybe won't be your star immediately but on a team like the Pacers is going to be able to come in and contribute in. So you see the immediacy of that versus if it is in that, if it's in that 10 through, through whatever through 30 range, it's somebody that you know, a couple years from now will be able to maybe that's, to me that's kind of the bet that they're making is that they don't really see a big difference between 5 through 9 and 10 through 30. So our 10 through 20, whatever. But I think that if they, and they could play this a lot of different ways, you know, we haven't gotten to talk a lot about Darren Peterson and the prospects in, in spite of specificity. But if they ended up with a boozer who's long been, I've said on this show he's the guy that I would love to see them get. Zubots interfaces with boot with him and if they end up getting a Peterson or a DebonSA, Zubots also gives them. So to me I think it's a smart move because he can kind of, he can kind of play with whatever direction they choose to go if they do get that top pick.

[Jay Kyle]

Zoo is just like as good and balanced a five as they were going to be able to find by next season playing any part of the market, trade, draft, whatever for agency. Like he's, he's already such an excellent positional defender. He's immediately the best screener of the Tyrese Halliburton era in Indiana. And I think his ability to just kind of like catch in the middle of the floor and do a variety of things right, he's not like a natural facilitator, but because of his size and because of his comfort with the ball on the move, you can kind of set him up for like a higher post up than you might expect or that kind of like roll into a, a short roll post up off of Tyrese Halliburton to get something really good out of that kind of action. Like I'm, I'm already so curious to see what Rick Carlisle does with him because there's just like a lot of skill you can tap into in addition to just being a big hulk and man with a visa Zubots.

[Justin Barrier]

You know, Rob loves a big hulking man.

[Jay Kyle]

We all have our types.

[Justin Barrier]

I mean it's going to be fascinating just because he provides them an opportunity to be balanced both on offense and defense in a way that they weren't even in at like the height of their powers in the playoffs. It's just Zoo Siakam Nemhar all of a sudden. Like we could be talking top 10 both sides of the ball and if Halliburton is healthy from the start of next season, like they could be off and running and could over the next two to three years just be pretty dominant. Frankly, I guess the trade off would be the opportunity cost of like getting a luck into someone at the fifth spot who could potentially just open up the window. So you're not just as focused on the next half decade. It could be a decade long run, but it seems like Kyle, a lot of the generational transformative prospects are going to be in that 1 to 4 range to begin with. So maybe they get both. If they get both. Honestly, we're talking like them thunder as like a East west square off for potentially the next couple finals here. It could be really interesting. But if that was a trade of opportunity, I feel like the Cavs side of the Clippers trades was one of desperation. It seems like based on reporting that's come out after the fact, particularly with the athletic, seems Like Donovan Mitchell has let it be known that he didn't want to wait until the off season in order to change things around. Yeah, he is a free agent or can be a free agent in the 27 off season and thus so there is some sense of urgency.

[Jay Kyle]

Can we just say on that front, Justin, he's right. Like, they should not have waited to the off season to change this around. Like I, I, I, I like this trade. Not because James Harden is like a super perfect fit for everything happening in Cleveland, but pretending that the status quo was okay wasn't going to be good for anyone involved there.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, it's interesting though, Kyle, because I, I think you really had to lean into one direction. Ultimately is where Mitchell kind of forced them into. Because you would look at the roster and say like, oh, our future is Garland Mobley and Mitchell is just kind of what we're doing until we get to the point where those guys can perhaps be our frontline guys, Mobley in particular or. But it seems like they were more focused on Mitchell potentially keeping him long term or like taking advantage of what they have now. I just don't see what they have with Harden really appreciably changing their trajectory this season. And so for that reason, I'm a little flaccid on this, especially when you consider the Clippers just go got back an all star point guard who's 10 years younger and is just as soon as he gets through these toe injuries, like, might just be able to be a pretty transformative player for them. So I don't know, I'm a little lukewarm on what they ended up doing.

[Jay Kyle]

I don't mind. I'm a little flaccid on this becoming a recurring audio drop for us. If we, if we just want to clip and stamp that thing right now.

[Justin Barrier]

Just let the, let the ear out of the like the whoopee cushion or something. Absolutely.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. I'll zag a little bit where I think there's a world where number one, I wonder if there was a long view where they kind of had their eye on this to begin with. Tying into the thing that I was talking about, like the types of players the, the foursome that they were envisioning kind of backing each other up, mixing each other with, you know, with Ellis and with Schroeder and with Garland and, and with Mitchell. Harden kind of balances that a little bit better to me and his play style. And I think that could work in a way that's pretty interesting because they've got two lob threats. I think that you enable, you know, you take a little bit of load off of, off of Mitchell and Harden's used to. For as much grief as we give him about being such a, a, you know, center of the universe minded kind of a player, you know, deep into his 30s, saying that he's still a system. God bless you. But I, but I also think the other direction here you could go is talking about the getting a little bit younger, getting a little bit faster. If there is a world where this could play out well for both sides, where if Garland goes over to the Clippers, I called it an accelerant, where, you know, he can play a lot of different ways on and off the ball. If you imagine the stat, you know, the, the sludge that Kawhi Leonard drags you into with the way that he plays. If you have a Darius Garland with his movement, shooting with his live dribble passing, I think it could be pretty fun. Granted, it's all short term thinking. I love the German, the Justin Termini thing about comparing going with James Harden as like, you know, being with Jim, Jennifer Lopez for a while. You're not going to grow old with James Harden. Embrace it. Bring him in. And it's. But I see. I think it could work for both. I don't know. Am I crazy?

[Jay Kyle]

Who, who's the Ben Affleck? Is that like the Rockets taking another swing and just seeing how it goes?

[Rob Mahoney]

Love waited, right?

[Jay Kyle]

I, I mean, look, I, I have a hard time squaring the part of me that loves Darius Garland, the basketball player, and the part of me that is freaked out by the fact that he just can't seem to stay healthy basically ever. And for a toe specialist at Cedar.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sinai, that's what I was googling.

[Justin Barrier]

It's both toes now, right?

[Jay Kyle]

Both. It's both feet in addition to some other random freak injuries along the way, which is always like, I don't know, makes my like alarms go off a little bit. You don't want to over index on the chaotic stuff where a guy just like breaks a jaw or something. But if it just keeps happening, then maybe it can be indicative of something about style of play, something about ultimately how, like how they're carrying themselves on the court that lends itself to that. I don't think of Garland as that kind of player. And yet the proof is what it is that he's had a really hard time staying on the floor. And in between those spells sometimes take. Takes a minute to kind of ramp up and get back into form again. Like, we blinked and this guy is about to be in the prime of his career. Like, he's not a young player anymore. He is a star that the Clippers absolutely should bet on and should see if maybe he can be healthier for them than he was for the Cavs. Maybe it'll just be like the right time in his career. He'll catch some better luck. Everything will turn out. I just get from a Cleveland perspective why they would be nervous, given the stakes, given the pressure, given all that desperation to say, like, are we absolutely sure he's going to be one, good enough and two. Healthy enough to be what we need him to be in this exact playoff run which is going to determine the future and the fate of our team? It's a lot to put on Darius Garland's shoulders.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, I get it from the Cavs point of view. I also think that there's a world in which Harden unlocks perhaps some of the step backs that Evan Mobley has been dealing with this season. Just the pick and roll master. Can he learn from him for a year or two and all of a sudden he's on a different level to himself. The.

[Rob Mahoney]

The added Mobley learning step backs. Is that what you're suggesting?

[Jay Kyle]

No. The metaphorical step back that Evan Mobley has taken.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, I was like, that would be sick. Whoa.

[Justin Barrier]

I was like, I. But I often find at the deadline, the teams that take advantage of another team's desperation are the ones that ultimately win in the long run. I do think we'll talk about the Bulls later, but I do think getting Jaden Ivey at his lowest value is actually a good piece of business. I couldn't like, really stand for the rest of the business that the polls did this deadline, but basically the Clippers were willing to blow up their season and fork over a particularly juicy pick to the Thunder in order to get Garland in house. And if I'm the Cavs or anyone else in the league, I'm like, that's a bad sign. Because I do think if you wait out the injuries, you feel you figure that out, you have another decade run of this guy. And so I'm still high on Garland. I don't.

[Jay Kyle]

But do you. Do you have another decade of a small guard who's already at this? Like, I think a great case for Darius Garland is he is like six good years left, right? Like, that would be a great career.

[Justin Barrier]

Still pretty good.

[Jay Kyle]

That would be amazing. That'd be, again, that's like a 99, 100 percentile outcome for him. I Think there's a lot of range in between those things where you get, you know, a year or two of star level play and then a lot of, like, mystery box. Is he going to be healthy enough? Like, questioning.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the dread in the pit of your stomach that you feel if you're, you know, if you make this move, you're the Clippers. Because Rob, what you were talking about, play style, everything that he does is contingent on sharp stop and go on cutting at angles, at being quick because he's not that tall. He's like 6:1. And it's like you got to have some tools to sort of have longevity in that sense. Either you slow the world way down, which I don't really see him doing. I don't see him becoming a technician who slows the goes bullet time the way that Chris Paul did. And I don't know. I don't know that he's going to be the same kind of like, wizard in traffic the way that Kyrie is. Granted, Kyrie's had injury trouble too. That's the counter to my optimism, my like, conspiracy theory optimism about it, that it could work. It'd be a real worry.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Jay Kyle]

I mean, Garland has great vision for a point guard, but to your. To what you're saying, Kyle, it's like vision on the move. It's like a more of a kinetic read of the floor and not a Chris Paul. I'm going to move the chess pieces just so and then throw this like crazy baseball style pass. Like, that's just not really the way he operates.

[Justin Barrier]

I hear what all you guys are saying, and I also think he's the type of player who the longer you get into the playoffs, the more concerned you are about the size problems. Having said that, I just don't see another pathway for the Clippers to get anything approximating a player like him at age. And so in terms of opportunity costs, I totally understand it for them because resetting was going to be difficult no matter what was going to happen. We'll see what happens with Kawhi now. Maybe they can get something out of him. Or maybe the fact that they weren't able to trade him before the deadline is a suggestion that he has a suspension coming up. We'll see about that. But like, just having something going forward, at the very least to me, if I'm a Clippers fan, I feel good about because it was going to be a wilderness for a long time without our picks, without any way to get anybody like him in there.

[Jay Kyle]

Well, especially if the alternative was James Harden declines his player option over the summer and leaves, leaving you with nothing. I would sure rather have Darius Garland than absolutely nothing to show for James Harden. Bolton out the door.

[Justin Barrier]

They were selling cap space and cap space is not a plan, it's a dream. All right, why don't we take a quick break and we'll get to the rest of these deals in a bit. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel's putting you in control right from tip off. That's right. You get to choose your reward. Play it safe, go for it. Feeling bold. That's your move. Whatever your style, you're in control no matter how you play. FanDuel's giving you the power to choose your award and own your game this NBA season. Head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to make your pick. Get in the game and play it your way. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required rewards are non withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut it all right, let's get this this episode.

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[Justin Barrier]

Some of these other deals now probably the next one in terms of prominence would be Anthony Davis going to the Wizards. If only because that one just kind of put me on my my butt. Yeah, I was not. I was not expecting the Wizards to swing trades for two All Stars. Now, they come with all sorts of problems. When will we see them? Who's to say? But Trey Young, Anthony Davis was something that we've been seeing mocked in, like, fake Photoshops to first the Lakers and then the Hawks for, like, what, two to three years at this point? I guess the Wizards have that going for them.

[Jay Kyle]

I mean, clearly they took notes. You know, they saw the Photoshops. They're like, but why not us? Why. Why not a, you know, a slick Wizards jersey instead? And I gotta say, I don't. I don't hate it like the. There is a cost here. To be absolutely clear, nothing is certain. Anthony Davis, speaking of injury risks, makes me very nervous all the time in terms of his availability. And a huge reason why he's no longer a Dallas Maverick is the fact that he couldn't play in, like, two thirds of their games during his brief time there. But the idea of who he is and what this team can be, I find myself, you know, I find appealing. I find myself intrigued by the combination of Trae Young's playmaking and table setting, Anthony Davis's defense. There's a wide array of very talented young players on rookie scale deals who could pop at any moment, depending on who you. Who you buy into. Maybe there's just, like, enough of a balance here for, at minimum, to be competitive in the East. Like, the Wizards are going to be fighting for a playoff spot next season. Anything above that feels like gravy.

[Justin Barrier]

The Washington Wizards competitive in the East? Look, get excited, D.C. they're all.

[Jay Kyle]

Every team is fighting for something different. And this was not a team that was going to shortcut its way to actual title contention, but it could shortcut its way here, clearly.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And if. If, you know, if AD And Trey don't play down the home stretch and they are terrible dog shit, and they end up in the lottery like we were talking about. There's a. There's a scenario where they come out of this with a new lease on life with. With a new player that's going to sort of be the centerpiece of what they do in the future. We've talked about these top four picks, who they could be, and you have a Trae Young and you have an AD with not much of a. You can choose to keep them and. And, you know, And. And build around that one player, or it's. It's an interesting sort of juxtaposition of really talented players in Davis and Trey where you could end up with a super generational talent like a. Like A Darren Peterson like we were talking about. If they end up with that, I'm.

[Jay Kyle]

They. Could they. Could you imagine if they won the lottery and then end up trading Anthony Davis one year from now just like the Mavericks? If this just becomes what AD does. Yeah, I'm already sad about it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, yeah, in the basketball sense of just we're playing 2K, injuries are turned off and I just like to. I get to see what's going on out there. I know this is a low stakes thing to say, but I mean, SAR and AD can play together. I think that could be pretty interesting on the floor together. And then if you throw. If you get Trey out there with, with Trey Johnson or Keyshawn George or. And I don't know, there's. There are some interesting. How far away would they really be from. Because the Hornets became interesting pretty fast. I think we would all agree. It kind of clicked into. Into place pretty fast. A year ago, I don't think we would have been having that con. Is it absurd? I know we were ahead of the curve on saying the Wizards were interesting. We've all kind of receded and stepped back from that take recently.

[Jay Kyle]

But speak for yourself.

[Rob Mahoney]

How far are they. How far away are they from being. From being like, oh, that's an interesting team. That could be good.

[Justin Barrier]

They might be a playing team. They might even be a high playing team next year.

[Jay Kyle]

Look at you.

[Justin Barrier]

So they could be the new Chicago Bulls. I'll say this, everything does click into place very nicely if you lay out the 1 through 5 based on what they have now before they go into the lottery. Trey and also other Trees and Keyshawn George and SAR and AD that's like a very competent lineup that really clicks in alongside each other. We've talked at length about SAR being next to an actual big in order to offset some of his particularities. I, I just. And I will say this, the cost was zero. It was basically the opportunity cost of filling your cap space in the same way that they've had in the past couple years, which is just taking on other people's mistakes and getting draft picks for it. The two picks they're getting in the ad deal are basically the 30th pick this year because it's coming from the Thunder and It's a top 20 protected warriors pick in 2030. It's nothing.

[Rob Mahoney]

They.

[Justin Barrier]

They got these guys for free.

[Jay Kyle]

Having said that, that top 20 pick too, Justin, is like a one shot to convey before it turns into like a second round fizzle of smoke.

[Justin Barrier]

Right. Having said that I just don't know what being competitive in this like one to two year zone while Trey and AD are focal points really gets them as opposed to continuing the long and harder process of building toward whatever this draft pick is going to be in the collection of young players before. And so like I don't think you could be super mad about it. I don't ultimately know what the net gain is because these guys are not going to be around when the team that you're hoping to build will ultimately come to form. And I would rather like opportunity like like other picks or just other young guys in order to be there as opposed to just nothing.

[Jay Kyle]

I mean they've been bad for a minute now and I, I agree with you. Like there's no question this is accelerating at a time where like there isn't maybe enough on the ground to justify it. The variable is the pick they're about to get. Like, and we're talking around that. Kyle mentioned it as far as like what that could look like for this particular team kind of penciled into the depth chart. That's the franchise changer, that pick right there. Because everything they have, they have a like, like again I'm as positive a Keyshawn George booster as you're likely to find. I'm not telling you he's a superstar. I love Alex Saar and the development he's shown this season. He might be a multi time all star but he's not going to be someone who dominates the ball and offense and kind of gives you a way of life. They might get that guy in the draft this year and that pick I think is what positions that to separate them from becoming the Sacramento Kings of just like the flash in the pan. Here's one like feel good playoff run and then all of a sudden everything falls apart because they're going to have whatever window they have with AD and Trey and how long the window is with AD is definitely something worth talking about because he's due for a new deal, is looking for a lot of money and a heavy investment. That's kind of an issue in and of itself. But you have this window with these guys and then hopefully there's a changeover moment where whoever that high lottery pick is in this year's draft that they're ready to assume more responsibility, they're ready to take over for Trey, you know, orchestrating the offense or whatever that looks like, like that's where the hope lies for me.

[Rob Mahoney]

I thought it was going to swing into motion in an interesting way. Even if they didn't get the. Before they got these guys, I was envisioning one of these top four guys with like plugging into the collection of players that they have and that being interesting, you know, already. And also, if these are really our generational, like, floor raising talents, you know, how bad were you really going to be in terms of. I don't know. I just think. I think it's not going to be a huge variation between. Between what would have happened if they, you know, hadn't pulled these guys off the. I just think another thing too, that's interesting for. If you're looking at this as a, as a functioning basketball team. AD we know, has been physically having a lot of problems recently staying on the floor. We know what he can be if he's healthy defensively. If you have Trey Young out there and Trey Johnson out there, I just, you're really kind of funneling a lot of activity and a lot of responsibility to him. Maybe sar, I don't know, maybe SAR is ready to take some of that load off of him. I just think defensively at the point of attack, I would be a little worriso. I'd be a little worried about that for ad.

[Jay Kyle]

I think that defensive combination could be pretty sick. Like SAR and AD together on the backline. I love that.

[Justin Barrier]

But that's. I think it speaks to the overall point there where it's like, what is the ultimate goal of this version of the Wizards is to be as competent as possible, if only to like, sell to your owner that we are doing something while we're waiting for the actual team to click in. I find myself just vacillating between, like, this being a prime example of why you tank or. Or why tanking is just like kind of a fool's errand where it's like going out and getting these guys, like really is an indictment on what they've drafted thus far and is kind of reminding me of the, the magic of a previous vintage where it's like we keep drafting at the top of the draft, we don't get the actual true blue chip guys and we're just stuck being kind of middling. Having said that, though, like, if they just luck into Darren Peterson tomorrow, everything changes. And for a small market franchise, like, that's the lifeblood of actually changing this thing. We can keep talking around like that fact, but all of these teams, the ceiling of what they're building is changing purely based off of losing as many games as possible and then lucking into a draft.

[Jay Kyle]

Yes, they just needed to go their way one time as far as that draft look goes. And I get that this is bailing on what. Ultimately, if we're all acting responsibly here with no job pressure whatsoever, would be an even longer term rebuild than this. This is also a franchise that's made the playoffs one time in eight years. Like there are entire generations of Wizards fans. I say theoretically because what child would opt into being a Wizards fan where they've never even seen their team play postseason basketball yet? Like, I, I think giving the people invested in your team a reprieve from that is important. And if you can do it without selling out the long term vision. And it's not like they traded away even like Balal Kula Bali to get a deal like this done. They really just. As you said, Justin, it was just like Middleton, you know, Malachi Branham, Marvin Bag. I mean, God forbid you give up Marvin Bagley.

[Justin Barrier]

It all.

[Jay Kyle]

It all feels so reasonable because of the cost and because it doesn't really sacrifice or come at the cost of the vision of what you're hoping to accomplish.

[Rob Mahoney]

What are you going to do with Jaden Harden, Jaden Hardy and d' Angelo Russell? That's an interesting thing because they just seem kind of like you're stacking dissonant pieces on older dissident pieces on your young guys.

[Jay Kyle]

That's.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's a tough one. I don't know. What do you think? Are they on the team?

[Justin Barrier]

Did the Go Go need a. Need another point guard or a scoring guard?

[Jay Kyle]

Because which one are you assigning? Both.

[Justin Barrier]

Maybe both. D' Angelo Russell about to get paid a lot because he has, I believe he has a player option for next year for just hanging out.

[Jay Kyle]

I mean, not. Not a lot. About to get some money.

[Justin Barrier]

More than any of us are making.

[Jay Kyle]

I mean, you know what?

[Rob Mahoney]

More than he deserves.

[Jay Kyle]

You're absolutely right. But you got to reserve the right to throw out the Trae Young, DLO Jaden Hardy, Bub Carrington, Trey Johnson lineup. You know, maybe that's the future.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I'm gonna need. I'm gonna need a barf bag, but.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah, I don't know. The Bulls seem to like that strategy. You know, guards, I would. Justin, I would love to talk about the. But we, we should at least talk about the Mavs part of the Anthony Davis.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was gonna say we didn't even mention that side of it.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah, right.

[Justin Barrier]

You wrote about this for the ringer.

[Jay Kyle]

I did. Walk us through it. I mean, it was time. It was past time this had to happen. In some form or another, unfortunately, a.

[Justin Barrier]

Year later this time.

[Jay Kyle]

Well, again, this. The writing should have been on the wall, but this has been a process for the Mavs in terms of getting themselves to this point where they could make a trade like this. And I think the important thing is that they made it. That they bit the bullet, that they said, you know what, two bad first round picks, some seconds, the aforementioned expiring Chris Middleton contract, et cetera, is just like enough to turn the page. And they had to do it, I think, in part because as we were going through kind of the lottery situation earlier, they just have to cash in huge on this pick, even more than the Wizards have to cash in huge on this pick. Because after 2026, the Mavs don't have control of their next four first rounders. This is the only moment they're going to have as far as, like, participating in that part of the draft at this level to give Cooper Flag a proper running mate of any kind. So if you're not going to trade Anthony Davis now, like, what. What are we even doing? They haven't been an Anthony Davis team. I'm not sure they ever were an Anthony Davis team team. He showed up, he got hurt, and they almost immediately lucked into Cooper Flag and became a Cooper Flag team. So the timeline shifted, whether they were willing to acknowledge it or not. And this, to me, at minimum, feels like an acknowledgment of that fact.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. My only question for the Mavs would be if they sold at the absolute lowest in order to just finally rid themselves of the emotional burden of Davis and Luca and everything that came before it. Because ultimately, as we outlined with the. The Wizards, like, they got two picks, which aren't really much, and they got 70 million, I think, in savings next year. So what they traded off here is effectively, Kyle, is opportunity costs. The Wizards basically gave up theirs in order to fill two spots with older veterans. The Mavs basically open doors so that they don't feel pressured, for instance, to dump a PJ Washington. Some of these other guys who are helpful players for nothing, because you're up against. Against the second Abram, which they were. Had they kept Anthony Davis another year.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And. And I think that's this, you know, the OKC pick at 2026, they're going to be able to keep that too. Right. So they're going to get one at the top and at the end, and I think those are going to be two. And I think this, all of this, obviously, is about just freeing up to Build around, you know, Cooper Flag, who has been just soaring into the stratosphere of like soaring past expectations, I guess for people who were maybe conservative on him, I personally wasn't. But I think something so that Pick, you know what the things that you're typically looking at getting, I don't know that they're going to get a full blown running mate. I think at the spot that they're probably going to draft that unless they get just crazy luck again and get somebody like up in the stratosphere of what we were talking about with the top four.

[Jay Kyle]

But I mean, right now, Kyle, they have the seventh best odds and maybe with a little more massaging of their rotation, like maybe they can get into.

[Justin Barrier]

The top five odds going to be fucking tragic.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh my God, I can't wait. There's people putting weights around their neck to sink to the bottom here. This is. And then, and then, you know. But the, the. The 30th pick, you know, I'd say the Pistons will probably end up with the 30th pick, but this OKC pick could be somebody. It could be like an. It's probably going to be a steady. It's probably not going to be like a volatile athlete, like the types of guys that you get at that range. It's going to be like a steady, a steady guy who, you know, maybe is a stretch four, who's a little older or, you know, I'm just thinking about that in my mind. I could rattle off some Bobs and Doug Nut names for you, but I won't. But they stand to get somebody. And the good thing about Cooper Flag, I think is they stand to get somebody that's going to fit. But Cooper Flag's dynamism, like, there's a steadiness in a, in a. And I've written about this, he has such a wide and broad skill set that can interface with so many different directions that they could choose to go. I'm sure that they have a lot of confidence that they're, they're going to have a high hit rate because of the, the range of things that he's able to do. And he's being able to show for sure.

[Jay Kyle]

And they were, they were just so log jammed because of the expense of the roster, especially staring down Anthony Davis's next deal, which is going to be like, like $60 million a season over however long he wants to pursue it. Like between that and not having their own picks, they were just kind of stuck. And it, it was going to be really difficult to actually reshuffle this group in any meaningful way without making these kinds of hard choices. And this is where, like, as we're talking about that potential, like, you know, 30th, 29th pick that they're going to get from OKC and the other bad, very protected warriors pick that Justin talked about, those are not meaningful picks to the Wizards, right? Like, those don't mean anything to them. I think they do mean something to Dallas because of the dearth of trade assets and draft assets. Otherwise. It's like if you don't have any of your own picks, just having a couple, whether you use them or not, can, like, grease the wheels of trade negotiations, can kind of get you into different conversations than you'd be able to otherwise. They get you some measure of flexibility. And so it's like if, if you're going to build a Cooper flag team, you got to have the means to at least make some kinds of moves. And they just didn't have that before.

[Justin Barrier]

Right? You break up the Stepie and it just provides you more outs and more flexibility there. I guess the question, if you're reading the, the kind of vibes of MAV fans right now and the dust settles, like, let's say in a week from now, do you feel good that you've officially moved on from everything that happened last year, or do you look back on it, you're like, we got Chris Middleton, too bad firsts and Max Christie for Luka Doncic.

[Jay Kyle]

I mean, they're going to feel bad for, I'm sorry to say this to MAZ fans the rest of their sporting lives. Like, Luka is always going to be the one who got away or really was given away. That's never going to change. But at least the guy who did it is no longer running the team and the prime return, you know, Anthony Davis didn't ask for any of this, but he, he became the face of it, was at least flipped to propel the franchise forward in some way. It would have been great for the Mavs if they got back another star or like a great pick in exchange for that. But. But sometimes you just got to do it just to do it. You just got, you just got to rip off the band aid, hope for the best and believe in the fact that you can actually build something if you give yourself the opportunity to do it.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's hard to get the swish and spit like the Listerine. It's hard to get that out of the original sin of the way that. What are we big eyes here?

[Jay Kyle]

I'm just Trying to keep up with the metaphor of where we're going.

[Rob Mahoney]

Swish and spit. You all never did that in school where they gave you. It was for the kids who didn't brush their teeth. It was like a social service thing. Kentucky, where they brought. You never hear about this. It was for the kid.

[Jay Kyle]

This feels like slander. Somebody would say about Kentucky, just like, in a mean, cruel way. But you're just saying this is a fact of life.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, the people of Kentucky reject you. Rob Mahoney, you're from Texas. Okay. Anyway, moving on.

[Jay Kyle]

We didn't have to swish and spit.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, come off your high horse. I don't know if y' all don't. It was like a social service where they were like.

[Justin Barrier]

It was for kids, platoons, or what are we doing?

[Rob Mahoney]

They came around and there were these little things, and you swished it and you. It was like blistering. Basically. It was.

[Justin Barrier]

I don't.

[Rob Mahoney]

They just did it.

[Jay Kyle]

For the record, I support it. It's a good idea.

[Rob Mahoney]

I remember this kid next to me in my. At my desk sneezed into his just as he was getting ready to, and it went all over me. So, anyway, moving on. It's hard to. Anyway, it's hard to get, like, dis. Get the original sin of, like, Nico's misvalue. Mis evaluation of Anthony Davis is ultimately what caused this. And the market responded and said, nope, this is who Anthony Davis is. I think that's the clearest. That's a. That's a really haunting sort of mirror or just, you know, totem of what. What went wrong with this whole situation. But, you know, they're trying to move forward, and hopefully they will. So, you know, mass fans, yeah, you're going to be haunted by it to some, to some extent forever, but at least you got Cooper.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, I agree with you guys. I just think, like, just getting that weight off your back probably feels pretty nice. You could enjoy Flag without the encumbrance of everything else that's, like, been befallen this team. So. I get it. Let's talk about Jaren Jackson, who went to Utah. Another instance of a team kind of turning the page here. I love this for the Jazz, a team that already looked in some instances to be too good in order to continue to bottom out. I think we've been saying this about them for a little while now, but they did a nice job of making sure that their defense was just virtually unplayable on most nights. And so they find themselves at the bottom here again. But. But Laurie just seemed too good in order to keep him out there or to move on from him because he seems like a real foundational player. Keonte George, as we've talked about several times this season, looks like a real player there. And so you get Walker Kessler back next season, resign him after he comes back healthy, and you pop in Jaren Jackson, all of a sudden this looks like a big old team with like, that really could be a force almost as immediately as next year. You.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's start with this question, this basic question. Can you play those three guys together in the basketball world? Could you play jjj? Could you play. Nobody says that anyway. I already did. Move on Kessler and Lowry. Could you play those three guys together? Because I think you might be able to.

[Jay Kyle]

Not only can you, they absolutely will and they should. I think. I think Lowry has shown enough, specifically in Cleveland in terms of being able to play the three and guard some perimeter players. And I think, think honestly, Jackson's pretty good at that stuff too. Like the fact that both of your three, four could be, in theory, perimeter defenders or switchable defenders, and they both can shoot and they both can shoot and they both can handle. I think the variability or the variable with them is like the rebounding. And this is where I feel myself getting really old in real time is like every passing year I feel slightly more annoyed by bigs who don't get any rebounds whatsoever. And they're both kind of. That Kessler can. Kessler is a really terrific rebounder, especially on offense.

[Rob Mahoney]

So.

[Jay Kyle]

So hopefully you're getting enough there. Hopefully, you know, Ace in particular learns to kind of play to his sides as we're, as we're fleshing out what this jumbo lineup can look like. Like Ace Bailey at the two with that three, four, five combination. I mean, this could be an enormous team. You just hope they play like an enormous team.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, I do like that. It gives them an identity right off the bat. And while Lori has played more at the 3, I believe in the Cleveland years, he's basically just a jumbo movement shooter to begin with. So he really functions offensively as a three to begin with. I also love versatility it provides because Kessler, I think, is going to net out both in contract and play style something around like what Jaren Allen is, where he's probably overqualified to only be playing 20 to 25 minutes. And if you need to size down, if you really want to jack the offense all of a sudden, Jiren can play five closing minutes at the, at the five and then Lori slots back into the four. Yep. Now I do think it's incumbent upon them to find a true blue like perimeter stopper because that spot at the two is going to be absolutely critical. And I do think like Ace, like we'll see how he kind of fits into all of this. But Ace himself is huge. He's like what, 6, 10, 11. And so like they have like not only like a vision for who they are, I also have a flexibility, which is what we've seen in the regular season is more paramount than most things.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah. I mean, and when you make this kind of addition, all of a sudden it's just, it just relieves pressure on some of the other projects and young players here to become incredible. Like, you know, like someone who would become a, a load bearing part of the Jazz organization. Right. Like a Bryce Sensibaugh for example. Like can just be a good role player, could just be auditioning for that role. The two that you're talking about, jv, like if you get anything from him meaningful and lasting, that's great. If not, then you can move on. Like Vince Williams came over in this trade, same thing. Like maybe he could be an interesting role player for this version of the Jazz. They're going to have opportunities to try guys on for size, whether they're the young players who are already on the roster or kind of bring them in and audition for smaller roles. And now there just are enough things put in pen that they feel like an actual basketball team. And that just hasn't been the case for the Jazz for, I don't know, basically the entire time Will Hardy has been there.

[Rob Mahoney]

I see this as an opportunity for, to take some pressure off of Ace, specifically like you were talking about him at the two. I think that would be a desert of ball handling that I don't know that they could sustain. But I do think that if they, if they have Ace in that position where he can sort of swap in and they'll into the Lowry role and then, you know, have him back him up and then come in and man, you. That's going to be one of the more interesting like help side rim protection teams in the league. Like they're going to instantly. And lobs too. It's going to get really interesting to watch. You know that graphic came up. I know we'll get to the warriors, but the graphic of their front court, sort of what they were aiming at came up and I was like, I'd take the Jazzes 10 times out of 10. This is just, this is A fascinating move. And you were talking about the rebounding. Maybe Kessler, with his, you know, free agency coming up will be, you know, incentivized to sort of get motivated in that sense. There will be less opportunities for him to be floating around. I assume he'll be the, the one in if they try to, you know, four out, one in, whatever. I don't know, it's. They're going to be really. They instantly became a pretty, pretty interesting fun team to watch for me and.

[Jay Kyle]

They did give up three firsts and multiple actual young players to get this done. So, you know, just a much different bargain than what Anthony Davis was on the market, for example. And I think that's fair. Like for all of Jaren Jackson's flaws, he's such a unique shot blocker. He is a unique offensive player too in his capacity to handle the ball, to shoot a little bit, to have the kind of like push shot in between game. Like there's just not a lot of players who, who, who can offer what Jaren Jackson Jr. Can and so love a push shot.

[Rob Mahoney]

Love a push.

[Jay Kyle]

Well, especially, especially for a big like him. If you're going to be playing with a bunch of other big players, right? Like who are the guys who decongest the clutter? And Lowry is great at that. Jaren Jackson is potentially really good at that with this group. We'll have to see kind of how he fits with everything. But I like the bargain and frankly, like this is what Utah has been waiting for, is an opportunity to either take a chance on a player like this or flip Lowry into a different kind of star that they felt more comfortable building around. And I like that they ultimately went in this direction.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, I heard some quibbling over whether or not Jaren, like how good of a player is he ultimately, especially because next season is when the extension kicks in, he's getting paid 50 million. And I do think there are some long term concerns because both Lowry and Jaren Jackson were overpaid specifically by their teams, Lowry by Utah, in order for them to stay put so that maybe down the road they could figure something else out. And so I think by 2027 this is going to become a very expensive team all of a sudden.

[Jay Kyle]

Sure.

[Justin Barrier]

Which next season competing immediately more paramount. It also speaks to the NBA just making it way too difficult for NBA teams to build a collective like this. If you were to find like one sort of like way to poke holes in, it would be they basically waited four years in the wilderness after getting, giving up the Mitchell Gobert combination to ultimately end up with a team that's pretty similar, where it's like we don't have the true blue superstar. Maybe they look into that in the draft and this is all different by the time, like that rolls around in six months or so. But they're kind of like similar teams. It's like a good bi collective team that maybe doesn't have the ceiling when you go up against a web and Yamaha, a guy that could be just like a queen on the chessboard. And I do wonder how Utah fans feel about that. It kind of speaks to our overall conversations about like, oh, we're tanking, but what are we getting in the end? We're ultimately getting what we used to have.

[Jay Kyle]

I mean, there's just no guarantees with this stuff. You know, as you said, you can spend years and years out in the wilderness and maybe you have the Orlando Magic path, maybe you have a run like Utah's had, where you don't end up with the superstar prospect. I think to Utah's credit, they haven't. But they did end up with Keonte George and developed him into a borderline all Star when a lot of the evidence, especially last season, said he was not going to become that player. And they stuck with him and he worked on his habits and he improved by leaps and bounds. And so, yeah, you can't guarantee your luck, but you can make some of your own luck.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, Billy Zane style. And I think that if you, if you think about Keonte, it's from Titanic.

[Justin Barrier]

Jv. I got it.

[Rob Mahoney]

If you, if you think about Keonte's evolution, I think if you're thinking about the path, it really makes a lot of sense for him specifically. I'm sure he's thrilled that to have a guy, you know, he's, he's legitimate, you know, pick and pop option and a rim protector, those guys are really hard to get. And. And you know, Jackson has, has experience playing with, you know, playing with Ja early. I think he's going to be. Be ready to provide some opportunities for Keante to get better that he hasn't had yet. So I'd be very excited about this if I was highly invested in Keante's development.

[Jay Kyle]

Clearly, Memphis was open for business. They didn't trade John Morant, but they were willing to make a swing this big. That in some ways is a lot more surprising. I kind of wondered for a minute there if they were going to end up as a Giannis trade facilitating team because of like the trade exception they generated in this deal. They could have then become a way station for another kind of transaction of some kind. Didn't quite work out out. But get some more picks in the coffers, get a couple young players to take shots on. Like, I, I still want to believe that Taylor Hendrick can be a good like good versatile NBA forward at least on defense. We'll see on the offense. And I gotta say, Kyle, like, when I have seen Walter Clayton Jr. This season, it's, it's drips and drabs. It's like spots where he really shines or like the athleticism will really pop or something like that. I don't know what he is yet. I, I certainly don't feel like super comfortable with him like running offense full time given what I've seen so far. But that's the kind of prospect I like Memphis taking a shot on.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I don't know that he's ever going to be. I mean he was an older prospect. You know, he stayed in college for a while. Obviously. I think that I'd be hesitant to ever say like, okay, this guy's going to be the, you know, carrying all the reps for a serious team. But I think he's somebody that has a skill set. Like I'm confident in him shooting the ball. I think he's a pretty solid passer. He plays pretty well at faster paces. His skill set holds up like he's not a pound it and kind of glacial point guard. So I. But I think he's probably a rotation guy. I think he's probably in your top seven, top eight, if you're a serious team. But no, he's. He's a good player. I don't think that he's going to end up in the, in the Tyus Jones camp where years from now we're like, you know, for cash considerations and he's just pinging all over the league. I may live to eat those words, but I'm confident in his skill set that maybe if he's not a primary ball handler for, for a good team, I think he's at least in the. In the mix for a good team. I believe in his skill set on that level.

[Justin Barrier]

I think this is where we need the flaccid drop because I have to say I appreciate the Grizzlies acting ahead of the this by getting out and trading Jaren Jackson clears clearly the writing was on the wall with this team. It seems like jaw is basically going for nothing. They can't get rid of him, but it seems like they're going to move on from him as soon as possible. Having said that, like, the return, I don't know if they really got this sort of blue chip asset that, like, I really would have excited me if I'm a Griz fan. And I did find it funny that like, the, the kind of massaging from the reporters was like, oh, they're. They're building around their cornerstones of Cedric Coward and Zach Edie, which is like, I, I guess like those are two players that will be there probably for the next generation. I don't know if they would call. They'd be considered cornerstones at this point, but they just got a big load of stuff. And as we've seen with other teams, like certain teams just things go haywire and all of a sudden you're backdooring into a top 10 pick. So I get it at this point, especially when the swaps are of swaps, of swaps, of swaps, of swaps offs. But I don't know, they just basically cleared the road for what's next, which is fine.

[Jay Kyle]

But they. Again, another team that needed to do that, that needed to, like, disillusion itself in some ways for like, what it. What it thought it was capable of with the current core, that team is done. Like, if it started falling apart. The day they decided to trade Desmond Bane, it crystallized when Jaw just like, was never able to regain any kind of, like, transformative form. If he's not going to be that player, this team wasn't going to go anywhere. And so trading Jaren Jackson Jr. For as valuable as he's been, for as great a grizzly as he's been, it's a tough call. And I agree with you that you're not getting that, like, one definitive asset in return unless you want to factor in the grand reuniting with Kyle Anderson, one of the great grizzlies of all time. But short of that, it. It is a. It is a platter of stuff that you hope pans out. And I think that's kind of where the Grizzlies are going to end up with a lot of their guys. Like, they're not going to get anything wonderful back for John Morant. I wouldn't expect they're going to end up with a lot of, like, pretty good and pretty interesting players and hopefully enough picks to package some of that stuff together and find their next John Moran.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, the building around Mort Burbage is. Is a. I would maybe quibble with that. I know you there. The belief in Cedric Coward, I'm their verbiage no one on this pods but the, the. Yeah.

[Jay Kyle]

Coward.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean I feel like your belief.

[Jay Kyle]

In him like Edie feels even more precarious.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. I just think they are still missing their, their roadmap, I think. But I think that Cow Coward and Edie have looked good enough to me. I'd be. I. I don't know. Are you guys ready to say that like Howard is the obvious next star. I don't think he necessarily even has to be a great star like a superstar or star level player for this to be for. I just, I think they're missing, they're still missing their core thing. I don't, I don't know if I totally buy into the idea that like Coward is this ascending rocket into, into, into their next phase. He's a good player, but I don't know if he's quite that. I don't know if I'm there.

[Justin Barrier]

They don't know what the meal looks like. And this package, this platter is a lot of like coleslaw and like just a bunch of olives and all this.

[Jay Kyle]

Other stuff and like they got a chopped basket.

[Rob Mahoney]

Love a coleslaw. Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

When, when they prepare it like. Well then all of a sudden things are looking pretty good. Right now though, it's a lot of just like just leafy greens just on the planet plate.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right.

[Jay Kyle]

Seems healthy. Seems good for you.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, well, they need that down in the south.

[Jay Kyle]

Good.

[Rob Mahoney]

They got some good solid sides, but I don't know. Yeah, it's like we need the. Yeah, we need the, we need the centerpiece.

[Jay Kyle]

Can a meal be made of sides alone? I mean, it's just one of the great philosophical questions of our times.

[Justin Barrier]

While we ponder that, why don't we take a quick break and we'll come back to the last part of these trades. All right. Well, if some of these teams that we've been talking about prioritize picks, let's talk about a team that doesn't give a. About any of them. We're talking about the Chicago Bulls.

[Jay Kyle]

Well, they care about second.

[Justin Barrier]

They loaded up with nine second round picks is what they came out after trading Kobe, White, IO dsumu and just like 30 other guys in separate deals where they may have taken someone back or they're dumping someone. It was just a real flurry of activity. I find myself unfortunately in the usual position where I almost want to see the ray of hope in the midst of all this shit right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Are you flaccid, Justin, again? Are you having problems?

[Justin Barrier]

No, I'm like I'm somewhere in between.

[Jay Kyle]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Jay Kyle]

Because I hear what you're gonna say.

[Justin Barrier]

I went up to the line and decided to walk back from it.

[Jay Kyle]

But if you look at every momentary review, honestly, momentarily fluffed just.

[Justin Barrier]

That's right.

[Jay Kyle]

Jesus Christ.

[Justin Barrier]

If you look at how everything lays out now that the dust has settled, they basically have Jaden, Ivy and for any Simons and a bunch of other guys who may or may not be on the team. Plus those nine seconds for White and Desumu. Now I do think if we're thinking long term, I would rather Ivy and bring back Simons than White and desumu. If we were. If it was a two for two, you had to have both, which it isn't. This is just like a false binary. But I actually like betting low on Ivy, so just wasn't ready for where the Pistons are right now, which is to go on a finals run. But if you give him time to work back from his injuries, all of a sudden you might have the downhill attack with force combo guard. That is a higher level than what White and desuma will get, which is a little bit more speed based, more flow based on and off ball sort of stuff. And Simons, I think I can give take it or leave it, but I do think he has shown that he could fill it up in this league. And the Bulls like to play in a way that I think befits his general style. And so I like Ivy Simonson stuff more than I like the other two guys. The process to get there is insane. Like I don't know why they didn't a lot of moves here, all this other. And all this other stuff that's happening. But I don't hate where they knit it out.

[Jay Kyle]

I mean they at least did stuff and that's not something that the Bulls do very often or usually they're like desperately trying to cling to the ninth seed at this point in the season. And this. This felt a forward thinking in a way that the Bulls rarely are in part because of Jaden Ivey. I'm. I'm completely aligned with you, jv. That's the kind of player they should be betting on. That's a great prospect to pair with. Josh Giddy, who has the burst and the athleticism as you said, once he's like fully back from this injury and kind of off his minutes limit and all that. He also has been a good enough shooter over the last two years where you don't have to worry about that aspect of his game. Like I like that pairing a lot. I think where I'm going to split the difference with you is on the Simons part of it or if you prefer, frankly, the Colin Sexton part of it, who is also now a Chicago player. This is a team with lots and lots of guards, more that more guards than they have room to play. And Simons and Sexton both are poised to be unrestricted free agents. And so if I were choosing between paying one of Kobe White or IO Dsumu or paying Simons at what I'm sure is going to be a pretty considerable payday for him, or I, I would think, or Colin Sexton, I think I would have preferred one of the original two guys in that case. But I also don't know why the Bulls kind of turned their nose of it paying a guy like Cody, Kobe White in the first place.

[Rob Mahoney]

First place, they just have this, like, swath of supplementary guards who present as primary guards. Like, I know everybody's dying for Simons to be more than he is. Everybody's dying for. I mean. And then Ivy.

[Justin Barrier]

We'll see.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I'm with you. That, like, I like betting on Ivy. I just. IO Are we going to couple this with the IO to Sumu conversation at all?

[Jay Kyle]

Let's get into it.

[Rob Mahoney]

We should.

[Justin Barrier]

He goes to the Wolves. White goes the Horn Hornets. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I know that he doesn't put up the production that Assignments does, but I feel more confident that an IO is going to be a part of a real serious playoff situation than any of these other guys. And I, I don't. I just don't love the. I don't love the return. And I just. I don't know. They. And they send her off to a better situation. Depending on how you feel about Herder, I think he's going to do better with the Pistons just because the, the way that's going to work. I think he addressed the need for them. And then you bring on Dillingham, who as much as I love him and as much as I whiffed on my prognostication of what he would be league, I'm not hopeful about that one. So it, it's an odd cluster of guys. I mean, that. I'm not having a brain fart here. They ended up with Dillingham too. Right. So they had like, they have a way station here of guys who just. I just don't. I just don't know about that. Especially when you throw a Sexton into it.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

To me, like the Dillinghams, the Leonard Millers, the Colin Sextons. Those are just names on a ledger who can, you can either take or leave it. At this point. Dillingham does probably still have some money on his deal, but he probably has options in there where you could just wave your hands up of it if, if you really want to go that point. They basically used him as salary matching and that was his primary value. So I don't see a problem with that. But my, my like bullishness does stem, to excuse the pun. Yeah, does stem a lot from Ivy. It's really like if you got Ivy by buying low and just like what I said with the Clippers, like prioritize a longer view as opposed to the Pistons who just needed a rotation spot for just an offensive jolt, which is what they got in her. I get it. And so we'll see about Simons. I have to imagine also that like the market, if it plays out this year like it did last year with a lot of these combo guards who are just offense forward and they're just too small to really have a role defensively like he might be looking at like having his salary. I also think like the giddy situation last year makes me bullish about Ivy's negotiations because if restricted free agency isn't that much of a threat, they might get him on, on a deal too. So there's a lot of words to like ultimately paper over the fact that they do end up with like a lot of guards and ultimately probably don't change their ceilings. But this is like a baby step forward overall and for that I guess it's something.

[Jay Kyle]

I mean it's a transition point at bare minimum. Even just like moving on from the Vuch era of Bulls basketball is like kind of a meaningful thing. And changing the guard in such a meaningful way, like they have turned over a lot of their supporting cast, we should say also brought in Nick Richards to now kind of plug some minutes at the five, which otherwise would have just been like Jalen Smith at a prayer. So I'm glad to have another just like live body there for them and Gershon Yabuzeli who has played terribly for the Knicks this season. But you know, it is not worth burying at this point. I think is deserving of another opportunity and maybe he'll be a better bowl than he was a Nick, there's just a lot like of there's a lot to sort out and I'm with you that like Ivey is the headliner here. He is the piece that makes sense for the Bulls as a now shockingly forward thinking organization. Everything else is wait and see. Everything else is like, let's, let's see how the dust settles with all these guards and who can play together and who makes sense because in the meantime it's going to be a lot of like three small perimeter players all out there kind of ball hogging it up. And Josh Giddy doing his absolute damnedest once he's I would think eventually back from this hamstring injury, theoretically back from this hamstring injury trying to facilitate all those guys at one once.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think quickly here, I'll just do a few of the angles for this. I think it penal. I. I've talked a lot about how Giddy is so conditional as a, as a, you know, quote, quote, quote superstar. I think this is brutal for him in terms of the way that he plays like a lot of these guys with, you know, I don't know, maybe, maybe Simon's pairing. I'm not even gonna think about the fit with this. Spinning it off to. To Hornets. Them getting Kobe White, I feel like is a good pickup for them in this, in this deal because I think think that he is a little bit bigger than Sexton. He's going home, I think is another thing that could matter too for the retention of him. And I think that he could depending on if they have guys in and out of the lineup.

[Justin Barrier]

He's.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's scoring lean and I think the passing of those guys that we've. That we've lauded so much on the Hornets, I think that he'll be a good fit there. And then on the Wolf side of it, I really think. I think IO is going to be a nice. He's proven himself as a pretty solid catch and you guys a great athlete. Guards his ass off from what I've seen. I don't know if you all agree, but I think that he's going to fit in well, I think with what the Wolves did. So I think he's a nice solid addition who can kind of play with any kind of combination of what they already do.

[Jay Kyle]

They needed some of that jolt the Wolves did and like you were hoping that Dillingham could eventually be that kind of player, they ejected on that experience pretty early. Bones Highland I think has been giving them some good minutes, but IO is just like a much more poised and polished, which is kind of a crazy thing considering we're talking about IO Dasumu. But he's become a much more reliable player and someone who ultimately I think pencils into like an eight or nine man playoff rotation so easily. Like the energy he plays with, just like the pop that he's going to be able to give them relative to a Mike Conley who we should say because of the now triangulated nature of him getting traded and traded again and now cut by the Hornets, could potentially resign with the Wolves and maybe back in that rotation anyway. But I was just giving you something totally different. Different in terms of those guard minutes and something they've badly needed. And I think you've. You've even seen it with like Dante DiVincenzo. Right. Like I.O. is kind of tapping into a similar vein of shooting and production and activity that I think is going to make their make the rotation that much more robust as a result of it.

[Justin Barrier]

Conley didn't even have to like shut off his cable or anything like that. He could just. Just walk right back into the locker room tomorrow.

[Jay Kyle]

That's the dream.

[Justin Barrier]

I think. I think two things. I think it is troubling if I'm going to give the other side of my Bulls optimism that two teams that seem like they're onto something both welcome. These guys are like, let's fucking go.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

Having said that, both of these guys are walking into much smaller roles than they had with the Bulls. And so I think this slots them into basically where they ultimately net out in the league. The white one is more interesting to me. I mean I think the summer one will probably matter more in terms of the big picture title race because perhaps gives them the little jolt that they've kind of needed for a little while here that Conley wasn't giving him this season. I think he was only averaging four points a game this season. Yeah, but white kind of compound this already advantage of the Hornets, who had the best offense in the league over the course of January and have looked like the hottest team in the league. If it's not the Clippers since January 1st. He just fits them and their identity so well. And I do think like when those three guys aren't all on the court at the same time can nipple Miller and ball, it just really craters, especially in the backcourt. I don't think Sexton was. Wasn't much more than just like a stopgap to get to something like this and now they have an overqualified version of that. Know maybe this muddles White's next negotiation because he is due for a new contract in the off season. That's part of why Chicago wanted to move on for him. But I do think if he can glom onto this team, which really kind of highlights his Best traits and like, weave his way into that identity of just being fast, shooting in like 10 threes a game from each player and like, really like, works himself into being a critical figure there. I think this works for everybody involved.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah, I. I think Khan and Brandon Miller both have enough like, like supplementary playmaking second unit, like pick and roll play to them to then really allow Kobe White to just be the purest, most bucket getting est version of himself. And it's like again, the fact that you can have three of those guys plus Lamelo, like in. In various combinations on the floor basically all the time. Incredibly exciting stuff for the Hornets, like being an overqualified backup point guard. That might just be Kobe White's destination. Destiny, we joke.

[Rob Mahoney]

No. Yeah, go ahead.

[Justin Barrier]

The duel between the Hornets and the Bulls for that last playing spot is about to be fierce. There's really no revenge game for the. For the 10, nine. I love that it's really going to be something.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just think the way that a player is cast on a bad team just creates this weird cognitive effect where people are like, what? It's like, I know that the guys ahead of him, those guards that they're all bringing in project as like, okay, those are. They have the ball, they can handle the ball. They can shoot, they can passes. It's like, no, but you're. If your ceiling is limited with those types of players. Like, I. I just think IO's value was a little distorted through that conversation. The way I would be. I would be kind of frustrated if I were a Bulls fan and we lost IO personally, I. I just keep coming back to that because I. I think that it.

[Jay Kyle]

It.

[Rob Mahoney]

Even though he wasn't playing the sign kind of. He can't play this kind of role that it. Like even a Dillingham would or whatever it is. I just think he's going to end up being on a serious team and I think that that's going to be frustrating for them. But I do like the one White situation for the. For the Hornets. I don't know. I don't come away from it loving what the Bulls did, but we move on.

[Jay Kyle]

For the record, Bulls fans should always be frustrated with the Bulls. Even today. Like, this is. Again, it's. It's not dissimilar to the Anthony Davis situation that like, some of these things just kind of needed to happen if the decision was already made. Like, if you're not going to pay Kobe White, you should trade Kobe White.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Jay Kyle]

But that doesn't mean you have to be thrilled about. Like, I Was having the year of his life. And it's one of the most exciting things about the bullshit. And here's your four second round picks to show for it.

[Justin Barrier]

Oh, even going a step further, he's one of the shining examples of the few things that the front office got right.

[Jay Kyle]

It's true.

[Justin Barrier]

The past few years we, we unearthed him for the second round. Finally he has this starring moment where he was like 29, 8, 9 against the Heat the other night. Looks like a real player. Boop, you're gone. We're actually just building around Noah Senge who hasn't played the entire year and all these other like big mobile, like past triple shoot guys who haven't really shown much of anything. So yeah, I get it. I get if you're frustrated, if you're a Bulls fan, like you've been waiting a long time and you're actually what this signals is you're waiting longer.

[Jay Kyle]

Well, in modest, you trust at least, you know, just, just cling on very tight.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, there are a lot of other kind of riff raff sort of deals. A lot of guys just filling rotation spots, other guys picking up some interesting ones. Of the other deals on the board, Rob, which one is the most interesting one to you?

[Jay Kyle]

I gotta say, I gotta give credit to the warriors for finding the one Jonathan Kuminga destination we had not talked about. Yeah, he's an Atlanta Hawk. Had not.

[Justin Barrier]

There's a reason for that.

[Jay Kyle]

What's that? What's that reason you think?

[Justin Barrier]

We didn't consider the Hawks because Porzingis has played five games since I believe November.

[Jay Kyle]

It's very true. End of November, Atlanta got Jock Landale back. I think there's no question he's going to play more games this season, at least the rest of the way than Chris. That's Porzingis, Will. The Hawks are just a tremendously weird team now. They've turned over so much other roster. Basically their entire second unit is new. If you want to rewind starting with like the Trey Young trade to now all of the sequence of moves, you've got Kaminga coming in. You've had McCollum Buddy healed in the Kaminga trade as well. Corey Kispert as well in the Trey Young deal. Landale, like I don't know what this team is.

[Rob Mahoney]

And it's a weird roster, man. The, the glut of guys from 67 to 69 that like to have the ball. Ball. Yeah, it's, it's weird.

[Justin Barrier]

I mean they're Jalen Johnson plus the Pelicans draft pick is what they are.

[Jay Kyle]

That is true and I do like.

[Justin Barrier]

It from that point of view. I think like if you go through the transactions it looks pretty weird because I believe they gave up for first just in order to sign in or not sign and trade but trade for Porzingis from the Celtics. And so I bet you the transaction math doesn't work out in their favor. But clearly things change over the course of this season. Getting rid of Trey Young, I do like that they're seemingly picking a, A, A A direction here. They're basically saying we're the future, not the now. And none of these guys really changes that.

[Jay Kyle]

They don't exactly change it. I, I don't know how well they're all going to fit together. And again the Hawks are such a strange story because individually Nikhil Alexander Walker has been unbelievable. Jaylen Johnson is an unimpeachable all star as far as his production and his impact on the game. And yet in composite none of it is like quite working yet. And maybe this is just a combination of players that isn't going to make sense together. I don't know know. But let's, let's throw Jonathan Kaminga in there and see if literally anything shifts around or moves or adapts as a result. Let's see if he has a place in a team like this where if there is going to be a situation for Kuminga to thrive I would think it would be a fluid one in which everyone can kind of handle the ball and create a little bit like the warriors are that team to an extent but they're all such, they're also such like an off ball engine that requires a different kind of focus. I think Kaminga could be a good Hawk. I'm just like caught off guard by even having to consider the possibility.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I mean it's kind of comes. I think the play style is the central kind of pivot lever, whatever that could decide whether or not he's unhappy because the opportunity I'm he's going to play, I guess that's already an upgrade. You know whether or not he's, he has primacy within what they do. I don't know. I was gonna say my, you didn't ask me but I'm gonna go ahead and bring up my. The last two is save you the transition there. I'll do just a quick two parter here. I mean the canard to the Lakers thing is interesting just because he on paper is shooting the ever loving shit out of the ball. But the whole league is just kind of like looking like if you're going to play on a team with three of the best like Advantage creators in the, you know, in basketball. He's an interesting, you know, premise on that point. I, I wrote down here. Finish the joke. The Lakers now have more edgy white guys than dot dot dot. I wrote a Newsmax comment section that was. Do you got what's your alls? Finish the joke.

[Jay Kyle]

Well, let me, let me challenge the premise real quick. Luke Canard, not edgy.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's known to get fiery every once in a while. I mean I'm just, you know, whatever.

[Justin Barrier]

More edgy.

[Jay Kyle]

Austin Reeves, Jake Laravia. I'm with you on all those guys.

[Justin Barrier]

My favorite thing is in a, in a graphic of all those guys which included Drew, Timmy and all the other ones. They also put JJ Redick there as.

[Rob Mahoney]

He counted Drew Timmy stroking the mustache. He's edgy a little bit in his. In his. In his way. He's interesting.

[Justin Barrier]

More. More edgy white guys than a Portland brewery.

[Rob Mahoney]

Ooh, okay.

[Jay Kyle]

That's a.

[Rob Mahoney]

Kind of a docile city though, right?

[Jay Kyle]

Port.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not maybe like low.

[Justin Barrier]

Low key.

[Jay Kyle]

Prickly though.

[Justin Barrier]

Yes, lowkey prick.

[Rob Mahoney]

Prickly. About the certain, you know, subjects that.

[Jay Kyle]

Would make you want to more edgy white than like the most bro. Tastic like finance floor. I think if you got to get that like testosterone suited kind of edge ultimately. Like that's. That's what Luke Canard is to me. He's. He reads finance bro.

[Justin Barrier]

A party on the Strand in Manhattan beach perhaps.

[Rob Mahoney]

Before I get any comments from Portland people. I absolutely should live in Portland, so don't take it personally. I love it there, especially now that we have feet.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. Really onto something now as a society.

[Rob Mahoney]

The other question, I was just going to say that the one that came in under the. That slipped under the door like a secret agent that Rob texted us with. I don't. How many HA's were in that? I think 26, 27.

[Jay Kyle]

It was a lot.

[Justin Barrier]

Is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is the Cam Thomas situation here. It's. It is objectively inherently hilarious. Who's going to. Who's going to roll the dice for a half season of Cam Thomas in an interesting way.

[Justin Barrier]

Listen, he called his shot and he was wrong. Nobody needed him, which is very tough. But I appreciate the boldness in order to like put yourself out there for sure. Didn't seem like the money was going to be there for him regardless. So I don't know what he actually this isn't a Dennis Shooter situation where people are now just like kind of putting that to You. You. Ten to five years later, whatever it was, when he turned that down from the Lakers. Still pretty tough overall.

[Jay Kyle]

Just tough to be confronted with the consequences of your own actions. You know, whether it's playing the market, whether it's the way you conduct yourself, whether it's the fact that you really just don't pass the ball almost at all. Extremely tough stuff for Cam, but, like, better. Better now than sitting on the bench and having to do all this over again in the summer, like, get an audition with somebody. And I gotta say, he's not. He's not my. My cup of tea. Not my kind of player. I. He's gonna jump on somewhere. There are plenty of teams that are in need of, like, a little microwave.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's gotta be a good team, though. I think if he has smart people around him, which. I don't know. I don't know who rep reps him or what conversations are going on. I'm just saying if. If he has people that are trying to help him, I think I would assume they would say, hey, you need to go. You need to fall into a situation that has already has pecking order, that already has order and show that what. I think that's the best way for him to show value here is to be like, okay, I'm willing to be, you know, in whatever capacity. So I just. I don't know what team that would be that can absorb him. And. Is it the Rockets? I've heard people suggest that. Is it. Is it. They. They could certainly use his punch. I'm just trying to think of another team.

[Justin Barrier]

Simons.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wolves. Could they. I don't know.

[Jay Kyle]

I think. I think Wolves and Rockets should have a conversation. I think Pistons maybe should have a conversation. Like, not nothing.

[Justin Barrier]

Why Celtics? Why don't you like the Celtics?

[Jay Kyle]

I don't know. I can't even. I can't even put a finger on it.

[Justin Barrier]

I. I think he will probably fit their offensive. Yeah, go ahead.

[Jay Kyle]

Let me say this. Everything in the Celtics, as far as I am concerned, is like, running on Kumbaya. Like, there is an element of, like. I don't know how to fully articulate why this offense works the way it does.

[Justin Barrier]

Does.

[Jay Kyle]

And Cam Thomas is such a grenade to throw into any offensive situation. He would actually freak me out a little bit if I were. Even if I were Joe Missoula, who, as far as I can tell, is freaked out by nothing.

[Justin Barrier]

I think everything we probably said about Simons going into this season is what you could probably say about Cam Thomas now. And Simon worked Out. Fine.

[Jay Kyle]

That's true.

[Justin Barrier]

Simons, I think, is a different personality type. I don't think he's as hardo about getting his shots as Cam Thomas is. But I think Kyle outlined the blueprint right there. You have to show to everybody at this point, you have to prove your worth. This isn't like proving that you are of value of like a star.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

You need to really just glom onto a winning situation to prove that you could play reserve minutes. And so I do think that the, like, the motivation factors work on both sides.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah. Does Cam know that.

[Rob Mahoney]

We don't know. That's a question I find myself asking a lot. Does Cam is Cam where of that?

[Jay Kyle]

This is why, like, I think the best market for Cam is not these level of teams that we're talking about. It's like the next rung down the like middle of the pack. But playoff level and competitive teams you get into. I think Golden State is a real candidate. Just like take some of the pressure off of Steph. That's a team that desperately needs off the dribble shot creation. Let's see what you could get from Cam. Toronto, I think, could be in the mix as well. Miami, like, if you're talking about a team that needs to run on one on one generation, why not throw him into the heat system? I think my favorite though is the Magic. I would love to see him as just like, oh, pull him off the bench and make something out of very tight quarters and sometimes compromise spacing. Like, Cam is good at that and the Magic certainly have a need for it.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. Especially after just getting out of Tyus Jones to duck onto the luxury tax. I do think a lot of teams in the midst of all this did get under this certain aprons, whatever one it may be, in order to sign buyout guys. So I do think the buyout market market could be frothier than it has been in recent years. A couple other deals that we should just check off here. Just because there were some interesting on the fringes moves. I do think Vuch to Boston is really interesting to me. I've always been a vouch believer and especially over the past two seasons when he's actually hitting his threes, at the very least you can squint and see the effect offensively that Porzingis had where it's like if you can go five out in certain lineups, which you can't do with Keita, like, that's another look that they're at the very least comfortable with with. I do think it begs the question, as our producer Isaiah Blakely was going into this podcast of whether or not you want to start him versus like use him more in the Simons role where he's like a offensive forward six man, you play through him in those sorts of lineups, right? We'll see. But I do, I do think there's a comfortability there, especially if he could help them on the board, which I think they really need help with.

[Jay Kyle]

That's the huge part. And I think the distinguishing factor from Porzingis is, yeah, you're getting some of the shooting that KP was so valuable in offering to the team, but you're getting the rebound. You're getting some facilitation which is really important to the Celtics. Like they don't have a lot of like very standard. Just give this guy the ball and he will run your offense sort of initiation. So give Vuch the ball at the elbow, give him at the three point line to hand off. Like, I think there's going to be a lot of entry points for him to be an active part of that offense.

[Rob Mahoney]

Extra attractive too because he's 35 years old. So we know that the clock is ticking louder and louder by the second and he's, he's unrestricted this season. So I think you bring in somebody that is going to be motivated to play good basketball. I think in whatever capacity, I think he'll be refreshed in a similar way that, that, that Porzingis was to come in and because of the, where he's been spending his tires in the playoff, in the playing game for a few years here. So I think it's a win, win for both parties for him and for the, for the Celtics. So. And you know, I think, I think that using him the way that you guys have talked about will be, will be the way to go. And yeah, I don't, I don't mind. I'm not like in love with it, but I don't mind it at all.

[Jay Kyle]

Why not?

[Justin Barrier]

You think, do you think Missoula saw the clip of him being mad that his teammates were celebrating, obviously. And it was like, that's my guy.

[Jay Kyle]

Ever since then he's been, he's been, he's been number one on their board ever since that day.

[Justin Barrier]

A couple other ones, Jared McCain to OKC. Weird one, don't see a guy who had a moment last year and is still very young, still on his rookie deal get shipped between two teams that are very much in the mix of this thing. I, I think if I was to play Devil's advocate or be a little bit more cynical here. I do worry that the Thunder's injury list, which is becoming deeper than the Ten Commandments at this point. I do wonder if they just need healthy bodies in order to get them. There's 10 of those, Kyle, and thus this might be longer than that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Interesting poll.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay, what's a long list? I didn't want to say, like, a CVS receipt. I didn't want to see, like, a grocery list.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah. Thou shalt not Alex Caruso.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, they have Jared McCain to play because nobody else is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Jay Kyle]

Yes, they do. I mean, it's also like. Oh, go ahead, Kyle.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was just going to say they love Jared McCain, from what I understand. And this was a nice way of correcting history and ending up with him. They love their guys. They have their philosophy.

[Justin Barrier]

I don't.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think there's a whole lot of soap in the rag with. With Jared McCain, I think. Think that. And I don't. I don't know. I'd be pretty annoyed if I were a Sixers fan. And it played out this way because they're going to get more expensive in the future. And if you get a guy that you believed in originally and you think that this is just a Jedi, cannot. I. I'm shocked. I tweeted that, you know, Shay, not to promote your own tweets, but Shay's got the abdominal strain. I was. I tweeted that. Yeah, it was probably from laughing that they somehow ended up with Jerry McCain, because I think that he's a good pickup. If you believe in them, they could really do.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. I'm gonna go find that and like that right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

[Jay Kyle]

The retroactive likes mean even more, frankly. That's like. You went through the effort to go find it, to like it. It really says a lot.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's always so much material in the world. I had to just, you know, say what I said before. So there we go.

[Jay Kyle]

It's very true. I mean, look, the Thunder adding one more shooter at minimum, not a bad thing. And we've already seen what they did with Isaiah Joe, another former Sixer, for that matter, and just like the player that they turned him into in their developmental complex. And why couldn't Jared McCain become that?

[Justin Barrier]

I was never, like, the biggest McCain fan. I always probably saw more of the flaws in the midst of, like, all of the movement shooting and, like, the high point totals he racked up in his first year. Ultimately, I. When the. The Thunder ended up trading for him, I immediately changed my position on him. Because I do think they are the new version of the spurs where it's like, oh, as soon as they identify.

[Rob Mahoney]

A guy, what do they know?

[Justin Barrier]

100%. Last one we should probably talk about here. Jose Alvarado to the Knicks, who I believe is a New York native. Queens, if I'm not mistaken.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is the talking point.

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

I just. I think they need a little. Little lifeblood, especially with Josh Hart on the bench these days. Sure.

[Jay Kyle]

With the injury and Deuce McBride, as we learned, going to be out for presumably the rest of the regular season. Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

And what Alvarado can bring is just. Just real pep. And so if he could just get him through the doldrums of the rest of the regular season, I think that be worth the cost, which was minimal to begin.

[Jay Kyle]

I think it'll be great for it. I also think this is the please God, don't make me play Jordan Clarkson trade. Mike Brown's plea to the heavens. And it was answered. You know, he doesn't have to do that anymore.

[Rob Mahoney]

I like it. I mean, he's. He's going to be just a nice little. A nice little sprinkling of annoyance in their rotation, which is going to be a nice thing for them to have in those non brunson minutes. Yeah.

[Jay Kyle]

Who.

[Justin Barrier]

All right, I feel like I need some more hydration. I need to get one of those like. Like those Gatorades where you have. They have the electrolytes in them or.

[Jay Kyle]

Whatever you want to do a little swish and spit. What do you think, you guys?

[Justin Barrier]

Yet another.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yet another highfalutin thumbnail thumb. Yeah. Thumbing of the nose. You guys don't have a good record. I would be careful. That's all I'm saying.

[Jay Kyle]

I don't know about this one.

[Justin Barrier]

I just appreciate you guys bailing me out there because I have no idea what I was talking about. Aren't there specific Gatorade packets that are specific for bringing you back up after you've just had an exhausting run? No.

[Jay Kyle]

Free. But yeah, Gatorade.

[Justin Barrier]

That's what I'm confused about myself. I could have sworn there's a different version, but we could.

[Rob Mahoney]

Isn't there Gatorade that has Gatorade in it?

[Jay Kyle]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Perspective, right? I don't know.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. Some have the twist knobs, some don't. You know?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

All right, well, now that we got that solved, why don't we wrap it there? We'll be back on Sunday. Don't worry about the Super Bowl. We have more takes on the trade deadline coming for you in a couple days. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll talk to you next time. 21 in present and select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.com in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelp linema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.