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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. What's poppin, man? Happy New Year to all my Real Ones. This is Logan Murdoch, here for another edition of real ones, the first of 2026. Myself, Howard Beck, and Raja Bell are in the building where we talk about the biggest story in the league right now, which is Trey Young and if he is going to get traded or he is going to get traded, but where he's going to get traded to, is it going to be Washington or is it going to be another stealth team into all that? We get into Trey's reputation around the league and how that's either going to help or hurt him. We get into his game and whether that's going to help or hurt him in the backstretch of his career as he enters his prime. And what can go in either direction. And we get in a little bit of okc. Is the sky falling? They're 6 and 6 over the last 12. Who knows? Is JW need to step up? Does Shea, is he taking on too much responsibility? Does Chet need to step up? All of that, talk about that. Then we get into a fascinating discussion about Jaylen Brown. Then we get into a letter, another fascinating discussion about Raj's memory in the 2001 NBA Finals and give flowers to Tyloo. Really, really fun episode. Make sure you guys tap in with us every Tuesdays and Fridays and you know what time it is. Real ones, mailbag Gmail.com Real ones mailbag Gmail.com Real ones Mailbag Gmail.com yeah, man. Big things going on in 2026 for real ones. We're going big places. So we want you to come along for the ride with us because this is for all of us for now. Tuesday episode. Cliff, play the theme music. What's poppin? Real Ones. Logan Murdoch here. Howard Beck there. Roger Bell over there. Real ones in 4K. We're getting ready for, you know, the big move, as they say. It's good to see you guys, man. It's really good to see you guys. Happy New Year. I would do all the pleasantries, but let's get right to it, man. We're talking. We're talking Trae Young and the Atlanta Hawks, okay? Reports came out last night. It's the classic. We don't know what we're going to talk about or we do know we're going to talk about. And then some big news comes in. And then we're like, okay, we need to talk about this. This is the biggest story in the NBA. So we're going to talk. Trae Young. Who, him? And his agents Aaron Mitts, Drew Morrison and Austin Brown are working with the franchise on a trade. This is from Sean Serania. And then that was the first bit of news. And then the second bit of news is that the Washington Wizards are are vying for Trey Young services. Now. Trey Young has a player option for next season. The Washington Wizards reportedly, this is according to front of the show Mark Stein, they are potentially pursuing trae Young with CJ McCollum's expiring deal. And Trey Young has a player option for next next year that he's presumably going to pick up. First off, I'll start with Howard on this. I get why the Hawks want to trade Trey Young at this point. We have talked about this throughout the podcast and throughout this season. But why the Wizards? Why do the Wizards want Trejo? Why would they presumably want him?
- [03:20]
B
Yeah, you know, it's funny actually the way this unfolded yesterday. Credit to our buddy Mark Stein because this, he had this first, it was like at 4:53 I jotted down that the Wizards have emerged as legitimate destination for Trey Young as the way he framed it. And then like a while later Shams had the other report about Trey and his agents working with the Hawks on this, blah, blah, blah. But it was weird because it was usually it's a, this player's now up for grabs, he's being marketed, he's being shopped, whatever. And then you start hearing names of teams and possibilities. But this was like the Wizards are a possible destination before we really knew for sure that they were looking to move him. So it's all kind of unfolding in a funky way. Just everybody's got their own obviously sources of information on this. The thing that hit me the first or that hit me right off the bat was okay, Washington team that's in a rebuild, lots of cap room, lots of flexibility, lots of contracts, they can move CJ McCollum expiring all this. But why, why, why, why would the Washington Wizards want Trey Young at this stage? Because one, they are still in tank mode and they have reason to stay in tank mode. Their pick is top eight protected, but if it falls below eight, it goes to the Knicks. So the Wizards still need to be tanking this year. Now maybe they think Trae Young will continue to help them tank given some of the results in. But why would the Wizards, after what looked like a multi year tank and still Young still rebuilding, want to go all in for a high priced star who has obviously not produced in the way or as effectively or been as much of A of a contributor to winning as he has been with the Hawks. It doesn't make a lot of sense unless you get to that other line in Mark Stein's report, which was. It remains to be seen essentially whether the Hawks might have to include draft capital to offload him, which is wild, right? A guy who is an all star caliber player, one of the top assist guys every year, one of the top three point shooters, just, you know, very talented if flawed player. You're not usually the one including the draft capital. But it seems like that might be the case and we'll see how this unfolds. We'll see if he ends up with Washington if, if it. If Trey Young is now firmly on the market as he appears to be, and if Trae Young and his agents are working with the Hawks to find a new home, as this all appears to be, and no one's denying it, I would expect, A, something's happening in the next few weeks before the February 5 deadline and B, Washington is a really intriguing, if strange potential landing spot.
- [05:56]
A
I think with this Raja is. But I know this is not your bag, but I'm gonna throw it to you anyway. My thing is with this Roger is it doesn't, it doesn't seem this particular trade to Washington and we'll see if it does happen, like what the final piece of the deal is. But it doesn't seem to help anyone involved here. Right. Because if you're Trey Young, you're getting into your late twenties, you seem to be wanting to go to a championship destination. This seems like another rebuild. It doesn't necessarily help Washington because all that they have been saying, at least behind the scenes, is that they're going to shed salary and that they're going to try to take on your expirings. That's cool. And we're going to just try to draft or try to, you know, bring up, compile a whole bunch of draft capital. Right. And then see what we do from here. Right. And you know, see if a Young guy could fit or maybe somebody else could fit with within that framework. But like we're trying to tank and this seems to all this is going to do. I feel like if he goes to the Hawks and Trey Young goes to the Hawk is just piss him off, is pissed Trae Young off and he's going to make his money, but he's not going to get what he ultimately wants, which is, you know, controlling the marketplace and, you know, a chance to win as a player on this one. Right. If you're Trey Young, and you have given, you know, you put. Made the Hawks relevant. Would you be pissed off that they would be. Hey, man, you go send me to this place after all I've done for the franchise, I get. You want to leave. Like, what. That. That seems kind of out of pocket for the Hawks to entertain this. At least send them to a contender. It's not like they're sending him to something to play with Giannis. They're sending him to go play in NBA Siberia at this point.
- [07:41]
C
Yeah. I mean.
- [07:44]
A
Shout out to Siberia. I'm sure we got. Maybe we got a fan. Yeah.
- [07:47]
C
I mean, as a player, you can feel however you want to feel, and, yeah, I probably feel, you know, to some degree like that. And I'm sure Trey doesn't want to wind up in Washington ultimately, but, you know, you don't have any control over where they send you in some of these cases. I mean, some people are powerful enough, and contractually, in a situation where you actually do control it, Trey's just a. It's a. It's a weird one. You said nobody wins in this. Trey doesn't win. I don't think Washington wins. There is a world in which, you know, CJ McCollum plugged in to Atlanta. I think they may win a little bit. They. I cancel that if they have to give up draft capital to offload Trey Young. But, like, if they're not giving it up and they're just getting C.J. mcCollum back, I can make a case where that's. That's a good look for them.
- [08:34]
A
Yeah.
- [08:35]
C
You know, I don't. I don't know. These are. Obviously, this isn't my bag necessarily, but, you know, Trey's in a weird spot as a player. Like, what. What are you. What do you represent to losing teams that are trying to tank, that may not want to be viable as it relates to, like, lifting their floor up to a degree that prevents them from doing that. And with winning teams, I mean, can you fit into a winning recipe? Can you. Can you. Are you willing to augment your game at this point in your career to be a better fit? Are there things that you can do if you plugged into, like, a point guard, needy team like the Rockets, who I always use? Right. Like, are you at the point in your career where we might be willing to make some accommodations in our own game in search of what you're talking about, Logan, which is a destination that you might be able to win? But that's not a. That's not a one way street, in terms of Atlanta, sending him to Siberia, right, like this. He's got some culpability in this as a player and obviously other teams would have to see him in the light. That would suggest he could help them win. And I don't have the answer to how they see him right now. I just don't.
- [09:46]
A
You brought up a really good point though. And just like the thing about Trey Young that is so frustrating is the lack of balance he has with talent and how to use that talent, right? Because when I watch him play, he can do everything. He can shoot the ball, he can do everything. We'll play defense. He's not willing to do that. But he's one of those guys that you see the stats and you're like, man, why isn't his teams better? Why doesn't he lift up his teams? And he's at a point right now where he has to change habits. Like, it is what it is at this point if he wants to get to the heights that he ultimately says he wants to get to, whether that's in Washington or anywhere else. Because I think at this point where a lot of factors are at play here, it's one, it's the new apron era that we see ourselves in, right? Where like these high priced players who don't give you everything aren't necessarily in demand as they used to be, right? Like you're going to have to give up draft capital to get them or you're going to have to pay a high salary on these, basically a hard cap. My question to you though, Raja, is how does he do that on the fly, not only like with a new team, but also mid season if this happens, right? Because it's very clear that they're trying to get. The Hawks are trying to get up off of him mid season. That's a really hard transition to go through.
- [11:04]
C
No, Well, I don't have the answer to that. It's super difficult. I don't want to say impossible, but as close to impossible as you could probably get. What I'd like to say is you need a behind the scenes campaign by your team letting everyone know that this wasn't a trade issue. Although. Although there's a lot of data to support that it was. But that's what you have to have. Like what do they call those press campaigns when people are out there just trying to like save face and like. But that's what you have to have behind the doors. You have to be selling like, hey, look, this was circumstantial. Here's what happened over the course of his career in Atlanta, this is what he was being told as an organization. Here's where he's at now as a. As a pro. Umpteenth year's in, like, this is what he's willing to do. Here are the sacrifices he's willing to make. Winning is the priority now. That's what you would have to do, in my opinion, because there's nothing that the player can do. Like, the player's going to go to Washington, right? The player's going to be in a situation in Washington where he's probably still the best option. It's going to revert him right back to what he was doing in Atlanta, because, quite frankly, there's not a whole lot there that can help him be the other version of himself. The winning teams would want to see him in. In a role suggesting that he would do it with them.
- [12:31]
A
So I don't.
- [12:31]
C
I don't have the answer. It's. It's almost impossible. It would be a lot of back channeling, a lot of. A lot of, you know, a lot of calls to front offices gauging interest and trying to explain the situation and trying to let them know what type of soldier they'd be getting if they were willing to bring him in there.
- [12:48]
A
Howard, what press clippings do they need to keep out of this press junket? Like, probably, like, everything that has been written about him. Everything about, like. Like, is he. Are they gonna. They can't call Lloyd Pierce as a reference here. Like, it's. It's a really hard sell to get Trey Young to, like, tell the team, like, yo, Trey Young is, like, reformed. And, like, he's gonna. You know, these data points are wrong, and he can change. Like, how do they convince. How do they convince a team that Trey Young is not who he is?
- [13:16]
B
Trae Young's been in the league long enough. Everybody knows who this is not. You know, there's no creative reassembling of press clippings here that's going to change his reputation, his image around the league. Everybody knows who he is. This is why we're talking about. It's not clear if Washington's going to demand draft capital to induce them to acquire Trae Young. Right? The Hawks just want. And Trey Young, I think, probably, too, the Hawks for sure, are ready for a divorce. And so the starting point here is not, oh, we've gone another direction, and Trey's really valuable. Let's see what we can get him to help keep building around Jalen Johnson and the rest of these guys, like, yeah, of course, that's the goal. But really the issue is we were really good this season and looking like we've got a great young core. And like, Trey starts playing, we start losing again. And there's. And it's not small sample size. They've got years of data, as the Hawks and the whole league does, too, that for all of Trey's talent, his shooting ability, his passing ability, his playmaking often gets, I think, lost in the shuffle here. But he's a great playmaker, but he's a small guard, and he's a small guard who does not or cannot defend. And so, you know, you're. You're not raiding with him on the floor. All the on off numbers look really bad traditionally. So what you need is to find a place where a team can absorb all of that and say, like, we, we can take advantage. We, we love his playmaking, we love his shot making. We think he could be great here, but we've got to have the infrastructure around him to play, you know, to defend and to make up for the fact that we're going to have to stash him, hide him as much as possible, even though teams are going to target him constantly. So do you have a great defense that can counteract that? Do you have the kind of guys around him who. Who will make sense that. It's a really hard thing to figure out. It's a hard solution. And that's why this is, I think, going to take time or why he might just land with a team like Washington. And by the way, quick thing on here that I did not ment in the opening part, and I should. I don't think it's clear that the Washington Wizards actually want Trey Young. I think they're looking to shed some salary themselves. I think they're looking to possibly get some draft capital. They are still in a tank, slash, rebuild. I think there's probably another year to go on it. So either Trey plays there while they're still losing because that's what they're still inclined to do, or they're just going to try to flip them again. Or, and this is also in the, you know, the ether here, we should consider this. Trey Young's making 46 million right now, right? So there's step one, you got to figure out how to make up the salary in a trade. But step two is he's a potential free agent this summer. He's got a player option for 49 million for next season. If he thinks he can make more, he'll decline the option and maybe somebody gives him. I, I don't think he's getting to start at that number again, but maybe a longer term deal with more money, or if he, if he doesn't think he's, he's going to make anywhere near that, Trey's going to pick up the option. But if you're the Wizards or anybody else who has him, you're only on the hook for one more year at that 49 million next season. I think it's fully, fully possible here that the Wizards would be acquiring him just as part of their reshuffling, as part of their overall rebuilding, slash, tanking, slash, whatever they're doing. And that Trey is there temporarily at best. Either they're going to reroute him eventually or they hold on to him as long as they need to until they figure out what their path forward is. But, but if while he's there, they see the best version of him and they think they can figure out a way to structure around him, sure. But off the top of my head, I'd say no. I don't think Trey Young is the answer to the Wizards rebuild or is their kind of player for that, the administration that's running them right now. He does not seem to me like the logical star that, that the Wizards would look to build around after a couple years of a tear down. That does not make sense to me. So my best guess, if the Wizards get him, it's temporary.
- [17:06]
A
And even if it's temporary, it's so tough, Roger. Like, even if it's temporary and say you rerouted Trey Young, all that's happening over these games that he plays in Washington is his value is going to start to tank. Like they're going to lose games. He's going to play the way he played. He's basically going to another version of the Hawks in this without a Jalen Johnson, right. Where he has to, you know, be the number one option. Not going to play no defense, probably have some good stats and some legitimately good games. By the way, he's out right now. What were you going to say, Roger? What's going on?
- [17:41]
C
No, I piggyback. It is the worst. If you're saying we need to show the league something different, that situation is the Antichrist. Like, you don't want to put him.
- [17:52]
A
In that at all. Right. And I get the Hawks perspective, right. Because I got to give the Hogs credit here for this one, for at least this point. They went into this season, they have a new regime and they said, hey, you know what, Trey? We're going to try to do right by you. We're going to put Porzingis around you. We're going to just. We're going to get Nikhil Walker Alexander. We're going to make a push because look, people forget. It's not that long ago we thought we being Howard and maybe Roger picked up the Hawks as our sleeper. Right. They thought that they could have the talent maybe to go make a run. Okay, whatever. Forget you. I. I didn't forget it. I want to be clear. I. I was like, I mean, maybe you can talk me into it at least, right? Because at the beginning of the season, the Eastern Conference looked very bleak. And we're going to talk throughout the next couple episodes about how the Eastern Conference is becoming. You guys talked about that last week. But all that to say I got to give them credit because they did do, in a sense do right by their players and be like, hey, yo, we're going to just do everything we can to the best we can with this window that we have. Porzingis has not been, has been injured. Trey has been injured. They've seen enough and they're pivoting right now. And, And I got to give them credit for that. Washington, I just don't know what they, what they're doing right now. Like, you can't run two races at the same time because even it's like say Trey says effort and I'm going to play really good this season. You play your way out of that protected pick even if you do get draft capital. Right. So like there's just so much. I'm very curious to see how this, this goes. Right. Because you also want him. Trey, if he going to do a hard reset, he should go to a team that is going to really be really strong as a front office. And I'm not saying Washington isn't necessarily just have different priorities. I just don't know the perfect scenario for him to go. Because if you look at him and his. The way we've talked about it all episode, he is a guy that. He is a great offensive player. But if you look down the league, say he goes to the Western Conference, they are going to target him defensively no matter what. Even if he is on a team that is a contingent. Say he goes into Houston. Oh, okay. Bet. Oh, I'm Sh. Gilgis Alexander. Give me Trey Young every time. I'm switching on to Trey Young every single time. Right. Same with, you know, all. If he plays, I don't know where else, but that's a perfect example here. I just don't know where he goes with the change. Trae Young is just such a flawed player that I just don't know an upside to where he is in his career right now. And I think that's bleak, but I just think that's just real where we're at right now. I'm sorry, was that too hard, Raja?
- [20:29]
C
No, no. I mean, no, I feel for the player. I mean, it's always hard for me to see guys that are that talented and. Cause he's super talented and the things that he can do. Super talented and a fun watch at times, right? Like, you could watch him and be like, damn, dog, that's pretty. That's some wild shit.
- [20:49]
A
But.
- [20:51]
C
You know, and he's not the only player that falls into this category. He just happens to have the.
- [20:56]
D
The.
- [20:57]
C
The flaw of being the small guard who can't defend, right? So, like, you know, the 6, 7 guard that plays this way, that can't defend usually is not a huge problem.
- [21:10]
A
Right Guard. The. The. How tall is the. The guard, dude?
- [21:14]
C
I mean, the six.
- [21:15]
D
Six.
- [21:15]
B
Logan.
- [21:15]
A
No, I'm not. I'm not.
- [21:16]
C
Yeah, no, I know what he's trying to do, but I'm not. What I'm saying is the bigger player that plays like this because there are some.
- [21:22]
A
Right?
- [21:24]
C
And you know, it's always tough for me, man, because, you know, I'm close to people who have people on Atlanta, and, you know, I started hearing this a few years ago. You know, I'm not as tapped in as you guys are to all the reports that are coming out of locker rooms and stuff. But, you know, I was hearing that they don't like playing with him. Like, these are good players, and they don't like playing with him. And, you know, sometimes it's hard for a fan to watch. It's easy with Trey. It's hard with other players to watch them and their brilliance and all that you love them for and then wrap your mind around, like, yeah, but other people might not like playing with him like that. It's a hard thing, like, because we are fascinated with the star itself and all the cool shit that they do. And then sometimes you got the player, you know, or the. The teammates, like, yeah, man, but, like, we're being marginalized in this. Like, this isn't exactly fun for us. And that sucks. Like, so I just hate it for him. I don't think you were too harsh on it, but that sucks.
- [22:25]
A
You're bringing up a great point that we obviously didn't hit home Raja, which is. Yeah, the on court stuff is, like, not great defensively, but, like, he was not not only, like, well, like among players, but definitely not well liked among coaches. Right. And I know he's been trying to do a rebrand over the last couple, what, a year or so? Right. But even that, it's like, even in the rebrand, he's going at it with, like, Patrick Beverly. He's just doing stuff that just makes you go, like, why are we doing this? Like, what are. What's going on? Right. And that's going to be a. That's going to always be a jacket that's on him, and that's something that he's always going to have to overcome at this stage of his career when other teams are trying to pay him. Right. And so it's just Howard, it's just weird all the way around. For Trae Young, I don't have an answer for what he's going to be in the next few years, but I just think that, you know, we're definitely at an impasse in his career.
- [23:20]
B
There's another wild piece of this, which is that you have this infamous, very noteworthy in NBA history, draft day trade of Trey Young for Luka Doncic. And here we are. They're both going to have been traded by the teams that ended up with them after draft day. And the shot. Most shocking part of that, of course, being the fact that Luca was the one traded first or that he was traded at all.
- [23:45]
A
Also, quickly, like Luca, though, they're both kind of at a. At an impasse. Right. Because those, those. Those defensive critiques of Luca is starting to come back now, too, with the Lakers. Right. And it's for sure. Yeah, yeah.
- [23:57]
B
Luke, I mean, Lucas had the better career so far by far. Luke is going to have the better career by far. But the flaws in both of these guys have caused issues. I mean, again, the Maverick should not have traded Luke under any circumstances, or at least under the circumstances that were existing at the time. But the concerns about him, the critiques of him, were valid at the time and valid now. You don't trade him because of that. But both of these guys have clear, you know, flaws that are. Are. That are creating tension. And, you know, Luca's current team is going through it right now. The Lakers, obviously, the record's spectacular, but the results on the floor, not the JJ Redick, Every post game just seems like a therapy session. And, you know, I don't. I don't know where that's.
- [24:40]
A
Real quick on JJ Redick, I don't know. Like, I can't tell if they're winning or losing based on his press conferences, because it was like every press conference is some sort of therapy session.
- [24:52]
B
Welcome to Los Angeles, J.J. where everything is championship or bust. And every day that you didn't win is a crisis. I've been through it from just, you know, obviously the other side of it, just documenting it for seven years, like, that's just how it goes there. Standard operating procedure for the Lakers. But, you know, Trae young is only 27 years old, so he's just beginning the theoretical prime. Right. We considered in the NBA to be kind of like, you know, that 26, 27 through 31, 32, whatever it may be, like, there's another chapter to be written here somewhere. You guys know you've heard me say this a million times. I'm never ready to just give up on a guy. And maybe it's going to take that change of scenery or just a different environment, whatever it may be, to get something better out of him, but there are certain limitations built in because of his size. Could he play harder on defense and be more attentive despite his size? Yeah, like, it's. It's not. It doesn't negate your ability to play defense. It just negates your ability to play it well. And. And, you know, you're going to get switched onto guys. You're going to get picked on, they're going to get targeted. But he could fight a little bit more and he could be a little bit better teammate. Because what Roger said is the same thing that we've all heard for years about guys not enjoying playing with him. And I. That sounds really harsh. I hate saying that because I. You know, everything else about Trey seems like a good dude, but he. It's been a constant frustration. We've heard this for years, so. And, yeah, it sucks that this is potentially just a way station kind of move where he gets offloaded to Washington and then the Wizards try to flip him or let him walk away, maybe as a free agent. Who knows how this goes? But I do think this is, you know, whatever the resolution is for the Hawks and Trey Young, today is not a permanent resolution for him. It is for them. They'll get what they need to get or whatever the most they can get, and they'll move on with the team built around Jalen Johnson, and they'll be happy to do so. They've got a lot of good talent. They've done a really nice job the last couple years. Of putting it together. The Hawks will be fine immediately. It's Trae Young who I think is going to have to do some work and also may have to put up with the fact that the next move is not the one where he's landing where he wants to be. It's going to take some time.
- [27:04]
C
I just have a hope for him that this is like an inflection point of sorts. Like, and he can, you know, we talk about this. Howard, when you said that he was 27 years old, that in and of itself just blew me away. Like it just feels like, it feels like he's older than that. So to hear, you know, from you that he's just approaching what we consider a prime. My hope is that he has that past your prime moment where guys, we often talk about guys having to come to grips with, hey man, like, I might have to change what I have, you know, historically done to fit into a championship culture. Or in some cases it's just even to stay in the league at times. That won't be Trae Young's situation, but there could be a really nice chapter too. But it's going to take a little bit of change and to your point, it's going to take some work from him. But the first part of that work is self eval, dude, like just coming to grips with, hey, you know, the way this, the way this has been working for me so far isn't the way it's going to work for me moving forward. Unless your objective as a Trey Young is not to win championships. Because if that's not what it is and you just, you know, like, you might say, hey, dude, I just fucking like doing it like this. This is what I'm going to do. And you know, if that's what it is, then the Washingtons of the world.
- [28:21]
A
You know, it's funny, like I, I think that you saying that Raja, like there's Howard said something that was really like he, he brought the prime age into this discussion, which I feel like is so valid and fair. But I think the other side of that, when you see these all time great players going to their prime, it's that what comes with it is the self awareness of both their body in their game and what they. And what the capabilities of both are at that time and adjusting Accordingly, right at 28, that's what Jordan was. He was still a high flyer, but he was also coming to grips with like, yo, I need to get good on this. Fade away. I need to get good on this. Up and under. I need to get good on these other things, right? Same with Kobe, same, you know, with Steph, who was Trey's idol, right. Like you had, there has to be an adjustment as you go through your prime because you're still great and you know everything during that time. But like you still have to adjust, right. I think about another, on another side of this great career, a really good career, but not a great career. John Wall, who did not and he had injuries but did not adjust his game based on how his body was flowing through. Right. And I think that that's something that Trey has to to consider as well. Two final thought. One, Raja Bell is way more tapped in than he lets on and says he is. And two, two, one thing that we're going to have to just see with these reclamation projects, there's going to be a big difference with this new apron era, bro, because it's going to prioritize drafts a lot more. We're going to start seeing more of an NFL model where you're going to, we're drafting these, trying to draft these superstars and pay them accordingly and then try to build around them. It's not going to be as much outsourcing from others, outsourcing from other teams with other disgruntled stars, right? Because it's the, the price is too high and it's going to take too much to get them. So Trey, whatever it is, he's going to have to get in line. So we'll figure it out. It's going to be a fascinating story to go and we're going to take a quick break and go into another.
- [30:17]
B
Fascinating good morning crust. It's a great day to be a bread brother. Mornings are not my jam or jelly. Oh, come on. Stop loafing around. I just woke up feeling hollow inside. Just grab one of the new morning uncrustable sandwiches like Bright Eyed Berry or up an apple filled with 12 grams of protein and tons of deliciousness crust.
- [30:40]
C
What are you eating?
- [30:42]
B
It's just granola.
- [30:44]
A
Not even yogurt.
- [30:45]
C
No crust, no fuss. Uncrust your mornings.
- [30:48]
B
Well, the holidays have come and gone once again. But if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift, well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now. You call it an early present for next year.
- [31:03]
A
What do you have to lose?
- [31:05]
B
Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch limited time, 50 off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required 45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or 180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes.
- [31:16]
C
Per month when network is busy.
- [31:17]
A
See Terms the story the Oklahoma City Thunder next. We are back. The world is falling on Oklahoma City right now. Okay, it's something, it's just they're, they're, it's, they're top of the west, but they're 6 and 6 over their last 12. They're 5 and 5. For all the conspiracy theorists that say ever since Chris Finch just complained about the refs and the, the foul baiting is just not working now. But I think that we, this is a good time to have an OKC discussion because I think it's just been building because they lost to Raja's Hornets 124 to 97.
- [32:03]
B
We can go through an entire.
- [32:06]
A
12.
- [32:07]
B
Month cycle of making references to Raja's career, never actually touching on that. Hornets like, well, oh, remember your son's days with Nash. Oh, hey, you know, Philly finals, Ivers, Charlotte, like, man, that's, that's, that's cold.
- [32:20]
A
Logan, Bobcats, baby. Okay, okay, okay, okay.
- [32:25]
B
Bobcats.
- [32:26]
A
But completely different. No, I watched the game last night and it was just, it was crazy, dog. It was just, it was nuts. It was one of those things where it was like, okay, okay, see should come back from this. You know, they should come back. They're down eight. They're now 20, but there's a lot of time left. A lot of time. Yeah, there's a Brandon Miller shot here. Bang. There's a Lamelo shot from the corner that's just out of pocket. It's just stupid shot. What the hell was that? But it goes in. It was one of those nights for okc. See, right. They. One interesting thing. They won the turnover B battle by, by 14 and still lost by 27 points. That just doesn't happen. This speaks to how bad their shooting was and how bad their defense was. Shay play didn't play particularly well. No one played particularly well. J Dub didn't as well. But this is coming on the, this is coming on the backdrop of them losing three times to San Antonio. They, they have a curious loss to the Suns, which I think in the grand scheme of things wasn't a big deal. Right. They were at the end of a road trip. Those are the hard, hardest games to win in the league. And then also the game that they just had was the beginning of a home stand, which is also a hard game. They're just in a weird schedule. Right. I'll start With Roger here, we talked about why this team shouldn't go for the record of regular seasons. Right. And I think we're starting to see that they're really not equipped to go to through a record like this, which is fine. Right. I think they're going on a trajectory of maybe 60 some wins like they did last year. And I think when you look at 60 something wins, I think you were a part of a 60, 60 something win season. You have these ebbs and flows. You have the six and sixes, right? Then you go on a run, then you go on here. What should we just be looking for as a consumer of basketball with this team? And what does this stretch say about them at this particular moment?
- [34:18]
C
Well, the stretch. The stretch says that they're not invincible.
- [34:21]
A
Right.
- [34:22]
C
And you know, that's a thing, you know, when teams are coming into your building and you seem invincible to them, you know, that's a huge advantage, you know, and so when teams are coming in thinking you have chinks in your armor and you know, they can find a way through those into the. Into the soft spots that are gonna really hurt you, that's a different ball game. And there was an era of invincibility around them for a while. So, like, this just suggests that they're not invincible. And, you know, they can't conduct themselves like they are, you know, as far as what they have going on. Look, I said this. When San Antonio beat him, what was it, Christmas Day? And we were on here talking about, was it Christmas? Yeah, right. And we were talking about all the things that San Antonio did to him defensively and what, you know, San Antonio was able to do offensively. But I said, then they got a bunch of wide open shots. They missed them. They're just. They were missing a lot of wide open shots in that game. And that's been a trend. Like, they have not shot the ball consistently. Well, there's been. There's been a bit of a dip in what they do defensively. I think those things correlate, like when, you know, you don't want them to, but I think organically in human nature, you know, suggest that those type of things kind of correlate more than coaches would want them to. And then they're trying to look, they've been injured, they've had major injuries, they've had a lot of fringe injuries, they have a ton of depth and, you know, when you're trying to reintegrate pieces in, they're chemistry issues, sometimes they're lineup issues, they're combination Issues that coaching staffs have to figure out. There's one definition within that, like, guys got used to playing a certain way, handling a certain amount of the business as it relates to offense moving and creating. And you know that role definition that was. Well, when you introduce pieces back into the lineup and J. Will is back, everybody's. He's going to naturally reassume his position in the hierarchy. So guys have to fit everyone from him down. Not necessarily Shay, but everyone from him down has got to adjust minute wise, role wise. And so there's a lot going on for them in this little stretch of time. I do think I say this a lot. Good coaches figure out ways. Good teams figure out ways to use things like this as something that could be very beneficial for them down the road. Right. We go through these troubles now. Yeah. There are ebbs and flows in seasons just like there are in games. We got to ride this, figure out how to come out on the back end better and then understand that we are not invincible and we have to play certain things, ways to win games in this league so that we're buttoned up for when it really matters the most.
- [37:03]
B
We talked about this weeks ago when everybody was talking about, oh, they're going to break the record and everything else. And I said I wasn't expecting it because usually. And I, I really respected the way they came out.
- [37:14]
A
Right.
- [37:14]
B
When you win the championship and then you come out at a just a record pace, you're. It's such a testament to your professionalism and your commitment and how serious about the game you are. Like, no, we haven't proven anything. That was last year. We're going to. We're not going to let up. We're going to awesome, great, cool. But that's really freaking hard to sustain for 82 games for anybody. And especially when you've come off a championship because you played more, you know, a couple more months. So what did I say?
- [37:38]
C
I.
- [37:38]
B
There were like, there were three things that I thought could derail the record win pace, the 74 win pace, fatigue, injury, boredom. Injuries they've certainly had. Right. Isaiah Hartenstein's missed the last 12 games. They're six. Six over that Spanish. Although it's a little misleading. Like their record without Hartenstein overall this season is fine. And when he's played in the last 12, they were. They were still like one in four with him. So it's not about that. But they have had injuries, they've had, as Raja mentioned, some maybe just not chemistry issues, like anything toxic, but just like Reintegrating Jalen Williams. Other guys had stepped into bigger roles, now have to step back a little bit. You're reshuffling a little bit when Hartenstein's out, Chet Holmgren's playing more at the 5. All this stuff and then the boredom factor I think is just the biggest thing. And a little of fatigue maybe. It's just hard to sustain that level of focus of intensity night after night. And we've, we have officially hit the dog days because it's January, it start, you start getting there late December. And at a certain point, especially the style they play. Like, think about why they're dominant. Like, yes, they have very good offensive players and Shay's an all time great offensive player, but they're not. I said this. Zach looked at me like I was, you know, on, on, on drugs a few weeks back when I said I didn't see them in the same way as I saw like the Bulls dynasty that won seven. You know, they had the 72 win season or the warriors who won 73, or they're like, I don't think that the offensive talent is at that same level of overwhelming level. Like it, it may get there because Jalen Williams and Chatter Young, but this team is built. Their dominance is based on their defense. Right? They just eat you alive. They lead the league still in deflections. They're going to make everything tough and they're going to get out and they're going to get a lot of easy baskets off of run outs. And that's a really hard way to play for yourself. Like it makes it tough on your opponents, but like sustaining that, that all out. We're just going to try to gobble up every single possession, every pass, every handoff. That's tough. So I do think some level of fatigue, boredom, injury has kind of crept in. And look, they're still on a 66 win pace. They're fifth in offense for the season, first in defense, but over the last 12 they've got the 22nd rated offense and a lot of that's just three point shooting drop off. Maybe that's a little fatigue. Maybe that's just, you know, the vagaries of a season. They're still second in defense over the last 12, but that, that's, that's noteworthy because they were number one by a long shot in defense before and I think they're now down to two over the last 12. So three point shooting has been really rough over the last several weeks for them. I'm not worried. I think the one area of concern that I would look at as just like an ongoing thing is where is J Dub? Because you know, he's coming back from that hand surgery in the off season. He's averaging 17 points a game. That's down four points a game from last season. His effective field goal percentage is.492, which is not great for anybody. And it's down from.537 last season and it would be a career low. His two point percentage is down to 49.8. That's down from 53.3 last year. His three point percentage is at.313. Grizzly, he was at.365 last season and his free throw attempts per game are down by almost an attempt per game. So like J Dub is not himself yet. This is not to point the finger at him, just saying like I think he's still kind of getting back to who he's supposed to be and when he is. That solves a lot of issues.
- [41:08]
A
I'm glad you brought up J Dub Howard because he, I believe he is the key to all of this, at least in the interim. Right. Because in the losses that they've had, particularly the instructive losses against San Antonio, he has not been good. You look at his shooting percentages, I think he went like 5 of 16 in the first game. He hasn't shot over 50% against the Spurs. And those were the games that really kind of derailed this, their opening stretch. And I remember watching all three spurs games and thinking, man, Shay's doing a lot right now, right? Like he needs a secondary option and the way their offense right now is set up, J Dub needs, is the one that needs to, he needs to fill out those holes offensively that Shay can't. Right when the offense is humming, it's Shay getting to his spots, doing his little Hickory dickory dock game and then Jalen is kind of fixing those pieces. I equate to Jalen right now, and I'm only saying this because this is idle and this is the trajectory that he looks up to. Right. I'm not saying it to comparing them as players necessarily, but he I think tracks as like 98, 99 Kobe, where he's trying to figure out his way within an offense at a championship structure. Yeah, he had that big game in the finals, but he's still coming into the fold of having to do that consistently throughout a season where he is that bonafide number two scoring option. And when they played the San Antonios of the world, I'm only called the San Antonio because they're the team that consistently matches up the best with this particular team. He has to find his spots because what happens is you get a team that has a lot of length, they're going to gobble up Shay Gilgis Alexander and not only take away his shooting and driving lanes, but his passing lanes. And when that happens, there's a lot of open shots there for J Dub to take and he has to assert his will on that game. If that doesn't happen, you have a lot of weird step backs from Shay down the stretch that are not great shots and you have him trying to figure out his offense, which is a lot. What happened last night when you know he's not getting to the free throw line but he's shooting a lot of like fade aways. He's not just. He's not shooting well. And this offense is only good at this point, as good as when Shai is good. And that's the first point. J Dub needs to step up. Shet needs to find his game and come along too. But Chet's not the number two option. The second thing that I would say that I've been seeing from Oklahoma City is they're just going through the rigmarole. That happens when, one, you are an IT team or and two, when you're an IT team that has won a championship, they're still getting congratulated from last year's accomplishments, right. I think about Shay Gilgis Alexander getting the Sports Illustrated award that he got. Right. With that comes an extra flight to Vegas where you have to go to Vegas real quick, then come back for a game. I don't know if he's done that yet, but that's on the horizon for him. When I forgot when that event is, but that's going to happen. But that's just one example, right? Where you're getting the star treatment. You're still trying to figure out your game, but you're getting all these other avenues of things that are just pulling at you. Right. Like Raja always talks about, like Steve became like this generational not only star, but like a celebrity, right? Where you're just getting pulled in so many different directions, but you still have to maintain the level of play that you're playing at. Right. And I think they're kind of going through that adjustment as well. Where, you know, they. I think I talked. I talked to. I'm a shout them out. My editor, Isaac, who was talking about, like when you, when you get to the level of success that the Oklahoma City Thunder are getting to Every loss is a. Is going to be on this podcast, Right. Every curious loss that you have is going to lead First Take and Sports center from an NBA percent. Like what's wrong with the Thunder? They're just going through a 6 and 6 stretch. They're fine to us, but like to the bigger basketball community, they're going to have to get used to. Every time they do something bad or good, it's going to have an outsized attention on them. And I think that they're adjusting to that right now. And I think that that's, that's what's. What's kind of illustrating what's going on right now during this run.
- [45:21]
B
SI Sports Person of the Year is in fact today, January 6th. So in theory, Shay is in Vegas for that today.
- [45:28]
A
Yeah. And he's supposed to go back. I think he's someone I remember he's probably going to go back tonight. He's going to go to Vegas today and then go back tonight. I don't know when he's going to get home. Maybe like 2 or 3 in the morning. And I know that's Raja. I know, I know you did that in success seated. We know, we know that you're not, you're not record had one of his games after a one of these types of events hanging out with Stevie Nash and it does not suffer any fools of.
- [45:54]
C
No, not, not my best game. But we, I mean you, we. You figure out a way to win the game. Cuz you, I mean, you know what you did the night before. So like you figure out. Yeah, I just want, I mean. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:04]
B
I just want to know which room Raj's Bobcats jersey is framed and hanging in.
- [46:13]
C
I might know. I don't have a Bobcats jersey.
- [46:17]
B
They don't exist anymore. You did.
- [46:20]
A
I would take it from your house and put it up. Have you sign it and put it up back here.
- [46:24]
C
I think the Bobcats, the weirdly the Bobcats actually sent me like a, like an alumni gift. I mean, a year or so ago. I thought that was pretty cool because I didn't even, I didn't even think. Well, the Hornets that were the. Yeah, I, I don't know who the.
- [46:39]
A
I don't know. Dude.
- [46:40]
C
I got something from Charlotte.
- [46:41]
B
Which logo was on it?
- [46:43]
A
Yeah, which logo was on it?
- [46:45]
C
Yeah, I don't remember it, man. It came from Charlotte, so it might have been Hornets.
- [46:48]
B
I just said Charlotte. Charlotte basketball team.
- [46:52]
A
Okay.
- [46:52]
C
But I don't even know that they claim. You know, who knew.
- [46:55]
A
Anyway, Howard, as you were saying, as you Were saying before we got derailed here.
- [47:00]
B
No, that's it, man. I just needed to know where the Bobcats jersey was.
- [47:03]
A
No, no, no, no.
- [47:04]
C
Yeah, but you know, he said that, he said it was the SI band of the year was today. But, but I would. Yeah, yeah, go ahead, go.
- [47:11]
B
That's, that's all I got. Yeah, he's, he, I, I, Shea is going to have to, to, you know, go accept an award, blah, blah, blah.
- [47:16]
A
But like they play Utah tomorrow.
- [47:18]
B
Yeah, I mean I'm, I'm, I don't know that how much of that stuff seeps in, but like ever. These guys are all human, right? It's just human to like feel a little bit accomplished and be like resting on your laurels, all that stuff. So I think all of it creeps in at a certain point and then you refocus, you get your together and you're fine. Like, I, I haven't, I haven't watched the debate shows today or listened elsewhere. I don't know if anyone's going into like, you know, like, you know, five alarm fire mode of like thunder need to like fire people, trade for people yet.
- [47:50]
A
But like you're not here, but I took a peek at the place that you don't go anymore on social media and they were frying. They were frying.
- [47:57]
B
Of course they were.
- [47:58]
C
That place is frying everyone at all.
- [48:01]
A
Times, including our brain cells.
- [48:05]
C
No, I, look, I just the J Will of it all. You made a good point, Logan, about what that does to SGA's ability, you know, to facilitate and find people that score. It's a good point. I'd also use the point of, you know, multiple times in last year's playoffs. It wasn't even about SGA and his facilitation to a player like J Will. J Will was taking possessions off of SGA's plate, right? Like he was taking primary playmaking responsibility in large chunks at times. And to the point that Howard made about fatigue. That becomes really important because if you don't have anything that keeps the game plan defensively honest, meaning, you know, we can't shade it all to SGA because you, you know, the other guys will just only spot shoot or shoot spoon fed shots. You got to have something that keeps it honest. And he was doing that in a major way. So getting back to being able to do that consistently is it's going to be critical for them for long term success.
- [49:14]
A
You know, and the thing is with their roster, right, they have a lot of depth, but they don't have a Lot of, like, consistent playmakers, right? They have, like, guys that can play make but not over, like, a long stretch, right? J Dub can do that. And yeah, that's. That's kind of what they. What they need to do. I don't want to belabor when it's 6 and 6. I think they'll be fine. All right, you guys ready for Mailbag? You guys, any more points on okc? You got anything else?
- [49:39]
B
Good to go.
- [49:40]
C
Mailbag it up.
- [49:44]
A
Cliffy. Booting out the 2 Cartier cliff in the building. What's happening, fellas?
- [49:49]
D
Fellas, fellas. What's good, Raj? What's good, man? Looking crispy in that 4k, my brother.
- [49:52]
A
How's it going?
- [49:54]
C
A little too bright for your boy, Cliff?
- [49:55]
A
A little too bright. This light is bright as hell, dog. Are you hot right now? I'm hot as hell over here.
- [50:02]
C
This is unnerving, bro.
- [50:04]
D
Oh, man, y' all looking good in that 4k, man. Gearing up for the Netflix. Anyways, let's get right to it. This is actually from Blue Sky. This is from Howard Beck. He had an interesting debate here with Lunda B. Johnson. From Blue sky, this is what London B. Johnson said. He said, good morning. Gun to your head. To win a title this season, how many teams would get better? Trading their one for Jaylen Brown, start of the season goal to win a title, 110 games and everything. Factors matters. I've only got Denver letting it go to VM voicemailing and Oak voicemail and okc, Minnesota as the only teams hanging it up. Howard replies if the exercise is strictly about best chance to win this season and not about long term roster building, et cetera. I say the numbers around 15, 17. London B. Johnson responds. Want to run that back? I think he's top five and not five. If you're trying to win this season, Howard Beck says stay tuned. So, Howard, explain the exercise for Logan and Roger here.
- [51:01]
B
So, by the way, we're making a very, very rare exception here because every time somebody asks a question on Blue sky, when I post about the mailbag, I said, sorry. Real ones mailbag gmail.com real ones mailbag gmail.com realm.com but on this one, I'm letting it go because Jalen Brown has been awesome. We haven't talked about him enough, and the Celtics are now in second in the east, and Jalen's putting up, like, career highs. Not across the board, but in a lot of places. He's been awesome. The Celtics have been awesome. So, guys, I think I was Too hasty. In my initial response to. To London, I said 15 to 17. I was. I was just walking to the gym that day, tweeting back as I'm walking, like, ah, you know, 15 to 17. I didn't really go through it yesterday. I went through it. So I've got a. I've got. I've got it. I've got it all broken down here. Let's see how you guys feel. I'm going to say there are a bunch of teams that are an easy yes, and the exercise is this. It's trading Jalen Brown for your team's number one guy. Tell me if you disagree on anything. Or we can just, like, just put these off to the side. Yes. The Pacers are trading them Siakam at the. At the moment. Or if it were Halliburton still for Jalen Brown. I think that's an easy yes, but especially under the circumstances. Siakam is their best player. Automatic. Yes. Pelicans Zion. Heartbeat. Trade him for Jalen. Kings Sabonis Hurt, but still their best player. Easy one. Wizards. CJ McCollum. Sar. I don't know.
- [52:25]
A
I mean, they're trying to trade for. They're trying to trade for Trey Young to be their number one. I mean, tag Jaylen Brown.
- [52:29]
B
We can stipulate the Wizards, we can stipulate the nets. Michael Porter Jr. Is their best player, probably Hornets. I don't know if it's Lamelo, Konkin, Hipple, Brandon Miller. I'm trading any of them for Jaylen Brown. Easy market for. For Jaylen. Easy. Blazers, Avdia or Sharp. Whoever. Yes. Bulls. Whoever it is, yes. Grizzlies. John Morant. Yes. Easy Heat. Norm Powell.
- [52:52]
C
Bam.
- [52:52]
B
Out of Bio. Yeah, Painful if it's bam. But yes, I'm trading him for Jaylen Brown right now. So that's 11 teams that.
- [52:58]
A
Wait, wait, wait. No, wait. Roger said that's not unimpeachable. No, no, no.
- [53:04]
C
I said not painful. Not painful.
- [53:06]
A
Okay, okay. All right. All right.
- [53:07]
B
So there's 11. 11 teams that are definitely a yes. And then I've got a bunch of teams that are like, they pausing first, but I still think they're saying yes. You tell me if you agree. Disagree. Hawks got to give up Jalen Johnson for Jalen Brown. I say yes. Mavs. Mavs got to give up Cooper Flag or Anthony Davis, whichever you want to do. I still say yes because remember, the goal of this is. Or the parameters that London said is this season. This season.
- [53:35]
C
This year. This year. Yeah.
- [53:36]
B
The world ends on July 1st. So for the teams that can't win a title, I think it's maximize your wins.
- [53:43]
A
So you're saying that. So you're saying that the Celtics. So that Nico Harris instead of traded Luca to the Celtics. All right, go ahead. Yes.
- [53:54]
B
All right. So again, if it's just for this season and the goal is to, like, maximize this season. Mavericks do it. Clippers, Kawhi or Harden. Again, pausing. But I think saying yes, especially no.
- [54:05]
A
There's no pause.
- [54:07]
B
I'm trying to be respectful. Cavs. Donovan Mitchell. Evan. Yes.
- [54:12]
A
Raptors.
- [54:13]
B
Scotty Barnes. Brandon Ingram. Yes.
- [54:15]
A
Goodbye.
- [54:16]
B
Franz Vogner. Paolo Bank. Carol. Yep. Pistons. Cade Cunningham. I think it's paused, but yes.
- [54:22]
A
Sorry, Cliff.
- [54:26]
B
Because Jalen Brown's also bringing the defense. I. I'm. Like I said, pausing. But yes. Sixers, Tyrese. Maxi. Pause. But yes.
- [54:33]
A
Yes, there's a pause.
- [54:35]
B
So that was eight more teams we've gotten to.
- [54:37]
C
Cade's tougher. For me. Cade's tough. Way tougher than Maxi. Like, way tougher than Max.
- [54:41]
A
That's the tough.
- [54:41]
C
Kaden. Do it here. But maybe.
- [54:44]
A
But let me.
- [54:44]
C
Let me just. Again, I'm fresh off a cade. Like, I'm fresh off a cade last night. Dog. Chill.
- [54:48]
A
Hold on. Fair, fair.
- [54:50]
C
I'm fresh off a cade last night. So that he has a go ahead.
- [54:53]
A
Go ahead.
- [54:56]
C
No, I'm just gonna say that he's really good.
- [55:02]
A
Also, Cade fits. Kade spits in Detroit in a way that I'm not sure Jaylen Brown would like.
- [55:07]
B
I'm right. And that's going to get me to the next piece of this list. So. But we have. Just for the record, we have all agreed, the three of us, 19 teams we've already said absolutely would give up their number one player for Jaylen Brown for this season.
- [55:20]
C
Yeah.
- [55:22]
B
I think there are four quick nos before we get to the ones where there's some tough calls. I think there are. There are only four that absolutely would not do it. The Bucks are not trading Giannis for him. Forget the Giannis situation contractually and all the other stuff, and Giannis being, you know. You know, not happy with things there. I don't think in a normal situation that the Bucks are giving up Giannis for Jalen Brown for this season. I say no. I think Jokic is a no. Wemby's a no. Shea is a no. Do we agree that those four absolutely is a no?
- [55:52]
C
Yes.
- [55:52]
B
All right, so we've got 19 yeses and four nos, which leaves us with these six teams. Minnesota, rather take your chances with your guy or Flip him for Jalen. Number one, Warriors, Steph Curry.
- [56:08]
A
I am going to. I'm going to bow out of this one because I need to live here.
- [56:14]
C
No, I not stack.
- [56:16]
A
Steph. Steph.
- [56:17]
C
I mean, the way they.
- [56:19]
A
But I'm also saying you're an asshole for this.
- [56:22]
B
Yeah.
- [56:22]
A
Yeah.
- [56:22]
C
This is a tough one, but I'm just. I'm gonna throw. I'm gonna throw in there just because of stylistically what they do and how they're constructed to have to play that Steph. That's Steph.
- [56:34]
A
And I'm gonna say navigating that current locker room, I don't think Jaylen can do that. I. I do not think he could navigate their locker room and make it successful.
- [56:42]
B
I had the warriors down as a no because of everything that Steph means to them. There's going to be a few cases, I think, where the culture of your team, the identity and. Or as Raja points out, the way you're structured, it just doesn't make sense. Even if Jalen Brown is technically an upgrade of sorts because of the defense like that, the heart and soul and everything of that team is. Steph, you're not. So you're not doing it. So that's three nos.
- [57:01]
A
But, yeah, it's that, though. But, like, I do think, like, if we were going to make the exercise, like, taking that away, just player for player, I just. And same rosters. I just don't think that Jalen has it in him to both be successful and bring that group along with him. Yeah, I think so.
- [57:16]
B
It's. It's a lot of things. So. All right, so we're all a no on the Warriors. Next up, Sons with Devin Booker. I say yes. They do it.
- [57:26]
C
Yes. Yes.
- [57:29]
B
Okay.
- [57:30]
A
I don't know. Logan. I don't know. I don't know. The reason why I don't know is because, I mean, Devin Booker's doing pretty good with this roster in a way that I just didn't, like, expect, and I just haven't. My thing with. With Jalen is, like, he's a good leader for that. That Celtics team, but he hasn't had direct conflict. Right. And I'm just. I'm really scared to see, like, how he has to figure out the dynamics of, like, a guy like Dylan Brooks. Like, is he going to. And by all accounts, Dylan Brooks is a great locker room guy. Like, say what you want to say about what he does to the opposing team is a great locker room guy, but I just haven't seen Jalen deal with personalities. He is the kind of personality in his locker room, but I haven't seen him kind of like, go toe to toe with someone else. And that's what gives me pause with him and the Warriors. I'm not sure how he's going to deal with personalities in that group. And the way I'd like to have. Booker has done that, and he's honestly successful with that.
- [58:28]
C
Devin Booker's been great.
- [58:29]
A
He's been amazing. Book.
- [58:30]
C
He's been great. I mean, I don't know.
- [58:32]
A
I'm gonna say I don't know. I'm not gonna say yes or no. I'm gonna say I don't know. All right.
- [58:36]
B
I both said we'd trade him for. For Jaylen Brown. Right now, Logan is hedging.
- [58:40]
A
Yep. I don't know. You're good.
- [58:41]
C
I don't.
- [58:42]
A
I don't need that.
- [58:44]
B
Minnesota Timberwolves, Anthony Edwards. I say yes. Flipping for Jaylen Brown.
- [58:48]
A
I say no. I said no. The reason why I say no is we're forgetting what the hell Anthony Edwards has done by, like, in the role that he has. He's brought him to the conference finals, dog, like, in a vaulted Western Conference, like, we'll see what Jalen is about to do, but we're kind of in this argument. We're kind of putting the cart in front of the horse here, where we're like, oh, yeah, Jalen will take him to the Western Conference by Western Conference finals by himself. And he. We don't even know what the end of this season is. He's had a great stretch. I'm going to say he deserves everything he's going through right now. But Ant has already done this, and he has. Has, has, has, has. Has Jalen beaten Joker with that roster?
- [59:32]
B
All fair. That's why I put this in the tough calls category. But I know yes.
- [59:36]
A
I leave that.
- [59:37]
C
Yeah, that's a no. Yes. No. I'm. I'm. I'm legitimately, really torn on this one. This one. This one's a tough one. I think I'm going to lean. This is going to be like a 55. 45. I'm going to say no.
- [59:50]
A
Okay.
- [59:51]
B
Couple more Rockets. I don't know if we're talking about Shangun or Durant or Amen Thompson. I would. I think it's Kevin Durant, frankly. And dude just won another game last night.
- [60:01]
A
Yeah. So I.
- [60:03]
B
Are you trading Durant for Jalen Brown?
- [60:05]
A
Yes.
- [60:07]
B
Logan's a yes.
- [60:09]
C
No.
- [60:12]
B
I. I typed yes last night before yesterday afternoon before the game last night. And I'm gonna Be prisoner of the moment and flip to it.
- [60:20]
A
He was awesome last night, though. I'm not gonna. What I'm saying, though, this is. This is wide stuff, right? And I'm like. I mean, he already mad at me, so whatever. Like, what's. What's else. What else is he gonna do? Like, what is he gonna do? Not talking. He's already been doing that.
- [60:32]
B
We chatted about you briefly last week, Logan. He just kind of smiled.
- [60:37]
A
You're good. Okay. All right. Anyways, what else. What else is he gonna say? Anyway, so my thing is this. And this is why it's tough, because Kevin Durant is freaking awesome. He's freaking. Let me just get that out of the way. He's freaking awesome, right? But there's. There's the injuries. This is why. This is why you. This is why I'm going back and forth. I don't even. I'm gonna put. Couch it, man.
- [60:57]
C
Get to the point, man. God damn.
- [60:59]
A
Hello. Shut the hell up. But the thing is, you could make the point.
- [61:03]
C
Him and hauling.
- [61:05]
A
Shut the hell up. The. Go make this pod longer than is. We got one more question. The thing with Katie is the injury concerns. There's also the age, right? We don't know how. How long he is going to, like, what. What. We don't know what the rest of the season, like, kind of entails for him from a health standpoint, right? Jaylen has been healthy. He has been getting these numbers, and, like, you're basically re. If you were to do that, you'd be resetting to the basically last year's version of the team, and you're swapping out Jalen Green for Jalen Brown. And quite frankly, that's pretty damn good, right?
- [61:42]
C
Minus Dylan Brooks. Minus Dylan Brooks.
- [61:44]
A
Minus Dylan Brooks. But, like, you're also. And like, there was some whispers out there. Not necessarily for me, I didn't hear that, but I had read about this, like, you know, this would be a reunion with Ma Udoka, and he, like, Jalen loves Ma Udoka, like, was defending him after everything had happened would, you know, still wanted to play for him, like, after the things happened and was disappointed that he got cut as a. As a result of everything that happened. So, like, that would be something like. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
- [62:12]
B
In this exercise, the case for trading Durant for Jalen Brown is like, you're accounting for everything. As London said in his tweet to me, you're accounting for everything. And that could include age and Injury concerns. Right. So if you think Jalen Brown's got a better chance of making it to April, May, June than KD does, like, that would be fair. All right, but we got two no's on the Rockets then and only one. Yes. I think these last two are the two hardest of this entire exercise. The Knicks with Jalen Brunson, like Jalen Brown brings more because of the defensive side of things and defense and size and everything else. But when we start factoring in again like we did with Steph, culture and fit and identity of the team and the straw that stirs the drink and all that, like, the Knicks would have a really hard time, like, you can. We can make the case on all kinds of stats and everything else to make this maybe an easy call for Jalen Brown. But I think when you take into account everything and how much they are about Jalen. Jalen Brunson, I think this is actually really hard. I actually leaned no on this one.
- [63:12]
C
I'm sorry, Logan. I go no off a few of the things you said. Play style is critical to this one. Like what.
- [63:19]
A
What.
- [63:20]
C
What they have to do within what they do to be successful and to close games. And yeah, I say no, but it's. I mean, if you gave me apples to apples, like, what player do you want? But, like, in that situation, I'm going no with you, Howard.
- [63:37]
A
The only way you say yes and I say no, but the only way you say yes and you convince yourself of it is like, just the liability that Jalen Brunson is on defense. Right? And like, they. Whenever you have Jalen Brunson on the floor with Cat, it's basically like you're playing three on five defensively. And like, if you can. If you traded for Jalen Brown, that's not going to be a problem. And he could get you the scoring punch that Jalen, That. That Brunson can. That's the only way you do it. But I think culturally, I think just the way that team is built, you can't really do that deal. Also, if you trade. Bro, if you traded Jalen Brunson straight up right now for Jalen Brown, I think New York. New York would not like that too much, bro. If you trade him to Boston. You traded Brunson to Boston. Oh, my God. It would not. It would not end well.
- [64:24]
B
And. And again, the exercise was taken into account. Everything. So which thing is one.
- [64:28]
A
Ben, Ben, relax. We're not. It's not real. It's not happening after this pod. Like, yo, why would you do that? Relax, Ben, relax.
- [64:37]
B
I don't.
- [64:37]
A
I don't know.
- [64:37]
B
I don't know if Ben's listening to much NBA podcasting today with his Knicks on a four game losing streak.
- [64:42]
A
I don't know about that. I'm just gonna say every time I think. I don't think Ben has tapped in, but every time we text, we talk about the Knicks, I get a text or we get a text. I. In the chat, like, like the podcast.
- [64:53]
B
Ben just ping us to let. Let us know you're still okay.
- [64:56]
A
All right.
- [64:56]
B
Like, I know it's a tough time. Ben might have severed his, like, you know, rest of his personality from the Knicks side of it right now. And just ignoring the Knicks any. At this point.
- [65:06]
A
It's a fair.
- [65:07]
B
We are. We are down to the Lakers and Luka Doncic again. Like Luca. Luca's freaking Luca, man. He's a perennial MVP candidate. He's most years we call him one of the top two to three players in the NBA. Jalen Brown is now knocking on the door of the MVP conversation for the first time. I know, like, Jalen brings all the defense that Luca does not. It's just a really tough one. I leaned no on this one also. Even though intellectually there's a lot to say. The other direction, I don't know, man. Does a ton of stuff.
- [65:44]
A
I'll start off, and it's a very simple answer. And it's. I'm gonna say no. And it's. Yeah. And it's for all the things that I think you're alluding to, Howard. Yeah. It's not just like the. It's not just Luca being Luca and how great he is as a basketball player. The Lakers require a certain type of player to be the face of their franchise. And I don't believe that Jalen fits that mold. And like, I do. I know that's been the story. No, but listen to me. It's. It's more than just the player. It's the star power for the Lakers, bro. And it's vanity and it's what you can do to market. And it's like it's a certain type of player. And I think it like, from a basketball standpoint, sure, but like, are you going to be able to sell that to the Lakers fan base, which is what they. At least what they. Is what they've cared about. You have to be historically great, but you also have to be historically, like, famous too. Like Kareem Magic, Wilts All. You have to be in that bank. And by name recognition, Luca is At least in that vein. He's not there on a championship level, but he is there in that vein. In terms of first name personalities that you talk. Kobe, Shaq, you need, like a level of celebrity and game to be able to do that. And I just don't think Jalen fits the mold of what that archetype is.
- [67:03]
C
If that's.
- [67:03]
A
What if it's.
- [67:05]
C
Yeah, if we're gonna go, you could speak to that way more than I can. But. And, and I guess the exercise was, all things considered, so that I'd have to take some of that into account. Like, you're probably right there. Very, very tough on the basketball side of things. Very, very, very tough. I probably say yes on the basketball side of things.
- [67:25]
B
Because you're trying to win a championship this season. Do you.
- [67:27]
C
This year?
- [67:28]
B
Yeah. Does James, with Austin Reeves and LeBron and the rest of that cast give you a better chance this year, Raja?
- [67:33]
A
Yeah, yeah, they do.
- [67:35]
C
Yeah, I think so. I do think so. Just purely basketball now, but yeah. See, I'm of the belief that to some degree, Logan, him pairing with Jason Tatum has kind of thwarted his ability to become a star, that he might have ordinarily been on his own team trying to win championships. And that's okay. Like, that's sacrificing sacrifice you make to win championships and stuff like that. But Jaylen Brown's been trying to tell.
- [68:05]
A
You that he's a star.
- [68:07]
C
Like, if nobody was listening, he was yelling it. And now you're. Now you're kind of getting to see it, you know, in a way. So, yeah, I would. I would say yes.
- [68:15]
A
Now.
- [68:15]
C
It's not an easy one, but I'd say yes for this year.
- [68:18]
A
He's.
- [68:19]
B
He is now firmly in the MVP conversation. Like the, The. The straw poll. The first ESPN straw poll that. That Tim Bontemps did was mid December, and Jaylen Brown got.
- [68:29]
D
I think.
- [68:30]
B
I think he got like, on 11 ballots out of the maybe 100 or whatever. Like, so, like, he got like a couple of fourths and a bunch of fifths. And I think if you did that again right now, considering Jokic may be eliminated by the 65 game rule and Wemby might get eliminated and Giannis might get eliminated. And because of everything that Jalen Brown's doing as well, it's not just by default by any stretch. I think if you redid the straw poll today. I did. First of all, Jalen was not on my straw poll that I texted back to Bond Temps a month ago. He would be today. Like, he, like he's legitimately in all of this. And I think he's like, he's been all NBA before, I think third team. So, like, some of this isn't new, but when you have that much more responsibility and you're playing to this level and lifting up your team and putting them in a place that nobody, nobody, nobody expected this. They're in second place in the east on January 6th with no Jason Tatum, no Porzingis or Horford or Drew Holiday. Like, it's, it's. It's really incredible what they're doing. So props to London for, for the great question. This was actually a fun.
- [69:38]
A
One last thing. One last thing.
- [69:39]
B
I was gonna give the total here. Okay, so 15 to 17. I said it was probably too low by me, but we've just gone through this and we've still only gotten to like 21. We still have like nine no's, so, like, there's still a third of the league that would say no to the straight up trade. Our best player for, for Jalen Brown right now. So for whatever that's worth, London. You may disagree with the results, but that was interesting.
- [70:03]
A
I just want to say shout out to. We got. We got one more question for you specifically, Roger, but I just want to say, like, that it's really dope to see this from Jalen Bro, because to your point, Raja and I have a little, like, just intimate knowledge with. This is from, like, you know, interviewing him a couple years ago. There was always, like, an underbelly from him of like, I can beat a guy and I am sacrificing my game for Jayson Tatum now. Like, did he go about it the greatest way behind the scenes? Not necessarily, but he was always really good with being alongside Jason Tatum and played his role in the way that he needed to. And I'm really happy to see him kind of spread his wings and show everybody what he's been telling everybody behind the scenes. He's. He's living up to his word. So that's. That's some ruined shit. We have one more question, though, for you specifically, Raja, that we've been holding off for the last few weeks. So, Cliff, we have Raja here. We've corralled him. We're all here together. No time like the present.
- [71:05]
D
This question was sent in over two weeks ago from Harry Liggins. This is last year, Raj, last. End of last year, he said, we have seen the AI step over Ty Lue highlight for over 24 years now. And I don't think I ever noticed until today. That it was Raja who passed the ball to him prior to the shot step over. I don't know if I ever heard his recollection of what? Of that play before. Did it register in that moment? What was it like the next few days? Especially with the Sixers taking that surprise lead in the finals and the play blowing up all over the highlight shows. Did you have any idea that it would still be such a big deal almost 25 years later?
- [71:39]
C
Yeah, it's a good question. The answer is no. Didn't. Didn't notice it in game. Did see it obviously afterwards, but had no idea it was going to register on like the NBA like all time meter the way it does. What was it like after beating them? I mean, we all obviously thought that we were going to just walk away with that championship. I mean, we thought it was ours. After stealing game one there. It was a pretty cool experience for me, having only been in the NBA maybe a couple months at that point. Still one of the coolest moments in my NBA career. Walking off a Staples center floor with a game one win in the Finals. Having been in the CBA two months before that. Just had no idea though. I wanna. Was that the summer? No, that wasn't this summer. That, no. But I had no idea. People often will show me, like I hit a weird left handed scoop shot like over Shaq and I had no fucking idea what I was doing. I had no idea what was going on in that game, the series in general. If you watch me on most plays, I'm just like, everybody else is kind of where they're supposed to be when pick and roll is happening, right?
- [72:59]
A
Like.
- [72:59]
C
Cause they know, hey, space, space. And I'm the one idiot that's just running around like trying to set ghost screens for people. They're like, yo, get the. Get out of here. I just had no idea what was going on. It was fight or flight. It was really cool to be a part of.
- [73:13]
A
Yeah.
- [73:13]
C
But no, I had no idea.
- [73:14]
A
Can you take us through that play, please? Like, what were you thinking in that vein? Were you like, I need to get the ball to Iverson? Like, what are you thinking in that play? You're like. Like three months ago, I was like, what do you mean? Can you take us through that play? What happened?
- [73:28]
C
My thought process was really simple. Hey, if he gives it to you and you're open, shoot it. If you get it and you ain't open, give it back to him. What do you mean? Doesn't get much easier than that. Hey, if you're open and he gave it to you. Shoot it.
- [73:44]
B
That's some simple 2001 math right there, bro.
- [73:47]
A
I'm looking at these highlights. Hold on, bro. I'm looking at these. These highlights. You have Robert Ory on you right here, and you threw some.
- [73:55]
C
The left. That's the lefty scoop.
- [73:57]
A
The lefty scoop is icy, dog. You got the Caesar dog. Like, you got the taper going. I'm trying to find this play right now. I'm sorry, Victoria, you're going to be mad at. Okay, here we go.
- [74:07]
B
No, it's okay.
- [74:08]
C
Where I was free, though.
- [74:10]
A
You're taking ball up the court. Wait, you're taking the ball up the court right here. I don't. Eric Snow was, like, looking your way. You have Ori on you. I don't know if they're trying to hide Oreo on you or something. And take it from there. Like, you're just like, okay, Ivory is in the post that he has Tyron Luano.
- [74:27]
C
That's the scoop. That's the scoop.
- [74:29]
A
No, no, that's not the scoop. That's the over. That's the step over.
- [74:33]
C
I don't remember any of that, bro. I don't remember, like, I. I don't. None of that. I don't remember any of that. No, no. I mean, I've seen clips, but I've never rewatched, bro.
- [74:42]
A
This Forrest Gump motherfucker was all in through this game, and every time I've asked him about this game, he's giving me nothing. There's another play where Kobe and Iverson are talking, right? And they're talking shit. An iconic play. And Raja Bell's in the back like, oh. And we got a similar question a few years ago about, like, what was. You were the only one that could know what Kobe and Iverson are yelling about. And Raj's like, I don't even remember, bro.
- [75:04]
C
And I'm first of all like, but. But what the. I don't give a fuck what Allen Iverson and Kobe Bryant are talking about, bro. Trying to make a fucking roster next year. Yeah, what are you talking about? Like, I got a job to do. This man's about to get the ball and try to get his 50th point. I ain't worried about what them two are talking about.
- [75:22]
A
Okay, all right, fine.
- [75:24]
B
Real quick, because I. I can't. Cliff, did you mention this was from Harry Liggins? I wanted to shout him out because he's been really. Okay. He's been really patient with this. Harry, thank you for this, because I Went back and I watched like the last. You were at the game minutes or whatever. I was at that game. But like, dude, like Raja, I don't remember from 24, 25 years ago, I covered that series, obviously, Laker Beatrider at the time. But I went back because I wanted to see, like, how did the Lakers let this one get away? They were up 99, 94 in OT. That's when Raja hits this really awkward, like, six footer, left hand, scoop shot.
- [75:57]
A
Cash.
- [75:58]
B
It's nice, though. Like, it's. It's. It's. It's kind of like, what the hell was that? But, like, wow.
- [76:03]
A
I'm like, shaq, step up. You have a block right there.
- [76:05]
C
Yeah. Oh, he had.
- [76:06]
A
He.
- [76:06]
C
He could have volleyballed that. Yeah, so that was nice and fluky.
- [76:11]
B
So Lakers are up by five. Raja hits that shot. Now it's down to three. Iverson makes a couple of free throws. Iverson hits a three from a pass from Aaron McKee. Now they're up 101, 99. Then Iverson hits the shot over Tyloo to make it 103.99. Kobe scores to cut it to two points. And then Eric Snow, off a pass from Roger bell, hits a 17 footer to make it 105. 100.
- [76:35]
A
Did you see that 17 footer?
- [76:36]
C
That was a. I would somebody. I gotta go rewatch it, man. Maybe I'll do that with the kicks.
- [76:42]
A
17 footer. I say that with all due respect.
- [76:44]
C
Eric Snow was cash from mid range, but he was.
- [76:46]
A
He was like a weird. Like, it was crazy.
- [76:50]
B
Can I just. Also, by the way, since this is on. Since this. This always starts as the step over. And I feel like I. As. As somebody who has talked to Ty Lou about this and written about it, I got to just make the real quick plug for Ty Lou here. Ty Lou did not get crossed over. Everybody thinks, oh, he showed him up. He crossed him over and Ty Lou fell out.
- [77:08]
A
No, no.
- [77:08]
B
Ty Lu was in front of him. He lunged to contest the shot. He lands and turns and stepped on Iverson's foot. Like, if you watch the correct angle, you'll see he stepped on Iverson's foot and then fell. And by the way, by the way.
- [77:21]
A
By the way, by the way, Ty Lu plague great defense in that series and was greater in that series. And hold on, I got it, too. This is my bag too. I know it, too. He also played great, great defense in that game because him being inserted into that game changed the whole game. It had the Lakers coming back because the Sixers were up a lot during that game. And Tyloo comes in and kind of neutralized AI for the most part going into over and then going in overtime and then Iverson got that shot. So I just want to give credit, just add on to that and give credit to Tyler.
- [77:53]
B
Two. Thank you, Logan. And two, two things to elaborate on that. One is Iverson went 18 for 41 in that game, which is a pretty good percentage for no. 18 for 41 is good for him. He was 1 for 5 in the fourth, but he was 2 for 3. And OT. What's rarely mentioned, of course, when people are talking about the step over one, of course that's the only game that Roger Bell Sixers won. The Lakers then reel off the next four in a row. But also it was like the last real meaningful highlight for Iverson of that series. He went 48 for 121 over the next four games. And. And Lou is on him throughout. The other thing. Just on Ty Lou's behalf or just. It's an. It's a really interesting, important footnote because Ty Lou himself said this was a quote he gave me years ago. Iverson making it to the Finals saved my career. Without Iverson there probably wouldn't be me. That was TY LOU About 10 years ago when we talked about this, it was because Iverson was. Or Lou was out of the rotation. And back then you had your. You got a playoff roster which you had to set on the eve of the playoffs. And if you didn't make the playoff roster, it meant you were done. You could not play the entire postseason. And Lou was on the bubble. He was behind Junior Ryder, he was behind Mike Penberthy, this three point specialist who's now been a shooting coach in and around the NBA. So Lou was not guaranteed to make it when Phil Jackson announced that Ty Lue made. Because they had a team meeting where you announced the playoff roster. He announces Lou's name and like a cheers go up because everybody freaking loved Ty Lue. And it was no reflection on anybody else who didn't make the postseason roster, but the guys loved Ty Lue. And so there was like this cheer that went up and they, they did it specifically because when they were looking at the Eastern Conference and expecting to get back to the Finals if they were going to meet up with Iverson, Lou was the one guy they had like Brian Shaw, Ron Harper, all these guys, like all good veteran dudes, but nobody who was quick enough. So Tyler's on the playoff roster specifically because they expected to meet Iverson at some point in the Finals or thought they might. And as Tyloo said, that saves his career. The Lakers don't resign him that summer, but the Wizards pick him up, give him a two year deal and that, you know, the rest is history, man.
- [80:00]
A
So yeah, last thing on that Roger. Gotta go. Tyloo was the scout, the Lakers scout. He was Allen Iverson and the Lakers scout during going into that series.
- [80:09]
B
Wore the armbands and wore the army in practices. Yeah.
- [80:13]
A
And at the Braids, which is awesome. Anyways that what else is awesome is this episode that's been another edition of real ones in 4K. We ain't playing around with you in 2026. Let's tap in all this. See you on Friday. Tap in. Ah, bye. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas Star casino who are 18 and older and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler or visit rghelp.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.com in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.