A (3:05)

I think, I think he's a lock. I think he's right there at number one, I think. And I'm really overreacting at this point. But every time I see him I'm like, this is the greatest player in the league right now. And I know that people are going to be like, push back, like no good. No, he's not. No, he's not. He is the best player in the league at this very moment. I don't, I don't see anyone better than him at this point. I don't care if this is going to be on the Old takes exposed episode of Real Ones later on and what we got wrong. If it is, I don't believe it's going to be. But he, Beck has just a certain magic to his game and I feel like it's all coming together because he stopped. He stopped taking all the threes. He's going to the cup, but more importantly, his versatility within that offense is and defense is what really unlocks the spurs, right? Like he can be the point center that you need him to be to get an offense ready, right? But also he can get into the post and let Stefan Castle, who's been great this season, do his thing. Dylan Harper, who's been great this season, do his thing. And I think that that's one of the things that, you know, if he needs to go in a pick and roll, he can do it. If he needs to start the pick and roll, he can do it. If he needs to get him into the post, he can do it. And also defensively, the way that he's been versatile and I think Raja really touched on this too. Not only is he getting blocked shots, but he's scaring the living daylight out of offensive players who don't even want to Put the ball up right and it's not just in the paint. If you're at at the three point line and you see Victor from the paint coming at you, you're going to think twice about even shooting that three. He has been a transformative force. He has the numbers to back it up. This team is doing great. I think he's right there at number one.

D (4:53)

Will said, Great presentation, Logan. Great stuff. There are no locks October 31st. There are no locks for anything on October 31st of the NBA season. I'm sorry guys, I hate to pour cold water on this also, but I do think this Logan like the idea of him as best player in the game, this mythical title that we bestow that is sometimes separate from MVP because that's a single season achievement. And we sometimes say, well this guy is the best player in the game, but this guy's MVP this year because he had the better season or his team had the better Wemby vs Shea vs Jokic vs Luka. When we start talking about best player in the league it gets really interesting because it feels very, very, especially to me because you guys know how I'm wired. It feels very premature to start talking about Wemby as best player in the league, much less MVP for this season when we've got so little sample size. But if you let yourself think about it for a minute and for those like me who are a little skeptical, not skeptical of Wemby, but just skeptical of proclamations this early, there's going to be a case because Jokic's brilliance is 98% offense. Shay is a two way player. Luka is like 97.5% offense. Actually maybe 99.5% offense. So the other guys who are in the best player in the game discussion, it's largely because of what they do on offense. With, with due respect to Shea, who doesn't affect the game defensively the same way that a guy who is 75 and can cover every inch of the floor like Wemby can does. So it does open up a discussion. It's too soon for that discussion guys, but it opens up the discussion and I think we all kind of figured over the last couple of years as we saw Wemby so comfortably, not after the very beginning but eventually start to comfortably evolve into an NBA player and get a feel for things and figure out the best way to use all of his talent and size that the possibility of him being a multi time mvp, a multi time DPOI and an all time great. It's all out there on the table. Right. It's all in the picture. We can see it, we can conceive of it. But, you know, yeah, he's gotta do it. They have to win. He has to stay healthy. He has to do it in the postseason. Like, there's a lot of milestones to clear before we can truly get into that, but I don't think it's unfair to let our imaginations run wild a little bit, because he makes our imaginations run wild every time we watch him.

A (7:27)

Yeah. And I mean all of those things. And also this. We talked about this last pod, the start that the spurs have right now in terms of scheduling is really going to be on the side of Wimby when we're talking about wins and the thing that he needs to build an MVP case. Obviously it's too early, but that's not the point of this discussion. Okay. Which he's. He's doing just a little bit. But no, like the. That's crazy. I have never been more excited in my life to watch a Spurs game in my life. It's been a short life. But to see him run the break, to see him block shots and start a break, to see him just, you know, I think I started having this feeling, I'm not going to lie, last year when they. The. Was it last year? No, it was two years ago when Wimby and the spurs went to Phoenix. It was one of those schedule. You know how the new NBA schedule is when a team plays a. Plays in a market twice in a week span. And the spurs went into Phoenix and he went toe to toe with Durant and won. And this is when the spurs had no expectations. Right. When they had no point guards to speak of. And he just went in there and bald and went toe to toe with Durant. And he seemed like he had all the makings of what we're going to see today. But there was a calmness there. There was a. Okay once. And I felt that also the first time I saw him in summer league where you could see he was priming for this moment. And, you know, one thing that. That I saw recently was a clip that Draymond put out or that was just kind of making the rounds. I think it was the interview that he did with Paul George a few years ago. But the discussion point came about Wimby and what is it going to take for him to get to this level? And Draymond said the only. You can't really stop him because he's 7 5. But one thing that you do to try to inhibit him is to just try to put a body on him and try to overpower him with your strength as a defender. Now, it doesn't seem like you can do that. Right. And it seems like he at a. And you see that with the fact that he's only taken 3.3, 3 point attempts a game. And he's really trying to welcome that contact. Um, last year I think it was about 9 or 8.8 three pointers a game. Which suggests to me that while he was dominant, if he settled for that three, he's basically giving the defense an opportunity to just kind of lag a little bit. Right. And not really take it seriously and just give up possessions as a whole. Now he's taking it to the defense. And now if he gets. If the, if the spurs continue on this role and they gain confidence around him and we talked about the Darien Fox, what was the word that you used again? Started with an S. Superfluous.

D (10:22)

Superfluous.

A (10:24)

Superfluous.

D (10:24)

Among among other premature declarations on this pod so far in this young season. By the way, my. My buddies at the San Antonio Express News, not having nothing to do with me saying this in that same time frame, had a story that I saw the next day about how. Why the spurs will still need dear and Fox.

A (10:41)

Yeah, anyways, when he comes into the fold, I'm really curious to see how that happens. But I just, I think Wimby is going to be the great equalizer for this offense because he can really plug in a lot of holes and he really helps those point guards out. I don't think it's a coincidence that Dylan Harper is having the season that he's having, that Stefan Castle is having the season that he's having. And I think that he could really, if de' Aaron Fox is paying attention, well, he can also kind of go into that fold. And I think this spurs team is really dangerous and I think that they can creep into the top four, which I also predicted in our season preview.

D (11:16)

It's on the table. It's on the table. Even if I'm not ready to start making all the wild proclamations about mvp, best player in the game, all other stuff. I will say this much. I do think Wemby is the undisputed must watch player in the NBA now. And we talked about this a little bit the other day. Just like he's. He's the guy that you're texting your buddies about in real time. Like there's nobody else who, when we're looking up the schedule each night, you're like, ooh, even if it's like a, maybe a crap game and you're like, you don't, you're not interested in who they're playing. You're still going to be tempted to watch Spurs.

A (11:47)

Nets was much watch. It was must watch television.

D (11:50)

Yeah. And it's, that's like there's not, you know, I'm, you know, that's my backyard. I'm not going to be seeing a lot of Nets this year unless they're playing Wemby or Steph or somebody. But I had to watch that game, no question. Yeah.

A (12:03)

And also not even just like the must watch. Like you have to put it on, on a league pass when they're on. It's also like he's has so many highlights to start. You're almost watching his games through social media at this point. Right. Like he makes a play in the first quarter, he's taken, he, he, he, he does the double block at the first quarter. You see it on all the social platforms. Right. Then the second quarter, he gets a logo 3. You basically get his whole game within an hour span on Instagram and TikTok and all these places. Because he's that dynamic and that exciting. Right. It's whatever. If he stays healthy, he is the face of the league no matter what. And I don't want to, like, I'm not inviting that conversation right now. I'm just saying it as a merit of fact right now, if he continues to do this and stay healthy, he is the next IT guy. And it's, it's just is what it is. We always talked about the face of the league is someone that's going to have to take it. And through five games, he's pretty much the must watch spectacle of this league. And I think that that's what's important. And I think that also can strengthen his MVP case because we continue to want to watch him. We're going to continue to see him evolve and we're going to continue to see him make big plays. So I think that's his argument thus far. Yeah. You got anything else on wimby?

D (13:18)

Nah, I think we well covered it for now. We got many, many weeks to go of this, so we got to save a little bit of.

A (13:24)

This is going to be the new Wemby podcast. We're pretty much going to talk about him every week.

D (13:28)

We got to save some hyperbole for January, February, March and April and possibly May, maybe June. Did I say maybe? Did you that was. That was hyperbole for October.

A (13:39)

Okay, okay. All right. Well, who's next on the. On the MVP list?

C (13:43)

Cliff, on the MVP list, there's a guy on the Milwaukee Bucks named Ryan Rollins.

A (13:51)

Yo, I. Hold on, hold on. I kid you not. In our chat, Connor Nevins, who holds it down for us at the Ringer in the podcast space. He was like, serious question. Who is Ryan Rollins? In our. In our real ones chat, it was hilarious.

D (14:07)

Which is a perfectly fair question for about 99% of the population watching the NBA. That's a perfectly fair question.

C (14:15)

However, get back to the buck. The Bucks. The young Bucks, who I. Who I really enjoy watching, by the way. Logan, they beat your warriors, your Golden State Warriors, 120 to 110 last night.

A (14:25)

No. Hey, I'm. Hold on. Chill, Joe, chill. They're not my Golden State Warriors. They are Howard's Golden State Warriors. Howard is the one.

C (14:31)

They're both from the Bay.

A (14:33)

He is no Howard. I. But I have to just point out, did the night night thing. Did the night night celebration that became the screen grab for the podcast. I didn't do that. That they asked us out of the.

D (14:44)

Blue to do something. I would. I was not prepared. I had not prepared.

A (14:48)

Howard got caught up in the rapture.

D (14:50)

It was the easiest thing. What is the most recognizable NBA gesture right now?

C (14:56)

It might be that little pool, this thingy right here where everybody does that. The Jordan pool celebration.

A (15:02)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.

D (15:04)

Nothing involving Jordan pool is the thing.

A (15:08)

Yeah. Anyway, Howard is definitely the warriors propaganda artist at this point, talking shit on Jordan Poole. Go ahead. Who are we talking about? We're talking about the Giannis, right? We're talking about.

C (15:17)

We talking about. We talking about Giannis under the Kubo on an absolute terror. Probably just as good of a tear as WIMBY is for this MVP discussion, averaging 36, 14, 7. Although he did sit out last night against the Warriors. The Golden State Warriors. But ducking the smoke, the young Bucks held it down. Ryan Rollins, 32 points. And Logan said, who is this guy? He said, what is going on with this guy? But the young Bucks held it down. A.J. green right now is currently averaging 11 points per game, shooting 55% from three. Gary Trent Jr. Is averaging 13 per game, 39% from three. And Ryan Rounds is averaging 18 per game, 44% from three. The Bucs are currently 4:1 in the standings. How we feel about the Bucks and how we feel about Giannis's MVP candidacy as well.

D (15:58)

So Basketball Reference, does their MVP tracker, which like everything else at this stage of the season is going to be warped by small sample size. But Wemby is actually the favorite at 40.5% in the track. The tracker is just like, it's just process, it's an algorithm, right? It's just processing past results for MVP and it bakes in record and stats and everything else. So Wemby's at 40.5%, Giannis is second at 30.5% and then it drops precipitously. Maxi at 12%, Jokic at 7.6. Jokic the like consensus favorite preseason. Shay the, the defending MVP is down at 5.7%. And then after that, you guys want to guess who's after Wimby? Giannis, Maxi Jokic, SGA coming in at 1.4% and Edwards, Steph Curry, another guy who's off to a Austin Reeves.

C (16:47)

Austin Reeves, there you go.

D (16:48)

Austin Reeves on the MVP tracker.

A (16:53)

We'll get to him in a second.

D (16:56)

Giannis has been awesome. Ryan Rollins is making people look up his basketball reference page in his Wikipedia shout out to Connor. But like, Giannis is doing exactly what the Bucks obviously hoped. What Giannis I'm certain I would imagine envisioned and what anybody who is a die hard Bucks fan after an entire summer of them being tortured by all of us in the media saying is this the summary. Asks out, you know, various, you know, unsourced reports and anonymous murmurs and all this other stuff. The best case scenario for the Bucks was going to be Giannis plays it cool. We'll wait and see. Which is essentially what he said. He said six or seven months. I, I might feel differently but right now this is where I am and I'm committed to this team and he's, he's brushed away everything else, all the chatter. But the best case scenario is that Giannis has that mindset that he backs it up with absolute peak Yannis play, which he has, that he becomes basically the de facto point guard because they don't really have one. Due respect to Ryan Rollins who's like, you know, he's, he is put up back to back career high scoring games. But Ryan Rawls isn't going to be your classic NBA playmaker organize the offense guy. He's a, he's a feisty ass defender and has put up some points now. But Giannis is, is the, the, the engine of this offense on most nights. Last night, obviously an exception. But Giannis has done it all and he can and I think with the Bucks felt in the off season after getting Miles Turner, which You know, obviously drew mix reactions because of what it did to their cap by waving and stretching. Dame, is Miles Turner at this stage worth that money? Is this the last bullet you could fire? Because you really don't have any other ways to go here or to bolster the roster. But they felt good about it because of what Miles Turner can do at both ends and because they knew that Giannis unleashed as just your, your all purpose playmaker, scorer, everything defensive anchor leader, that if they've got shooting and even a little bit of playmaking around him, they can get by at minimum. I don't know if anybody there would proclaim them a contender, but I think that they felt that it with Giannis at his peak and a solid enough supporting cast and some young guys like Rollins and Green with upside that the potential to, you know, at least be competitive in a kind of weird Eastern Conference this year, that it was there. And that's what we're seeing so far. And Giannis has been awesome.

A (19:23)

I just, you just talked about it. I just, I think he's been great. I don't know how sustainable the, the supporting cast around him is. I watched that game, you know, and I like, I'm probably the only person on this call that like knew who Ryan Rollins was considering he was in the Bay Area and he was a second round pick for the warriors. And I can tell you no one saw this coming. He was, I think he was, he was in the pool trade as like a throw in and then did, got, did. Got rerouted to Milwaukee.

D (19:53)

No, the Wizards waived him. Yeah, rebuilding, tanking Wizards waved him in January of 2024 and then the Bucks sign him to a two way deal initially. Yeah, real contract this past summer, three years, 12 million. So yeah, this is a guy, this is like Jeremy Lynn esque where it's like teams just keep tossing you aside and then suddenly boom, you know.

A (20:15)

Yeah. And then so he gets into the, the guard rotation and he's. It's just one of the, it's one of the great early stories of the season. But like there's no reason to believe at this very point that he could sustain this over an 82 game season. Right. Like there's just. And then also say he does, then you're going to have to trust him in a playoff setting to, you know, get to, to play playoff minutes and play at a high level in the way that Giannis wants to in the setting that Giannis wants to in June. And I don't know if that's realistic at this point. Or you can say that's realistic at this point, which makes it just kind of at this point the potential for fool's gold, which I'm scared for Giannis, right? But the thing with Giannis is, man, it's getting to a point with his little double Dutch, like in and out. Am I going to leave or am I not going to leave? Like, it's getting to a point where I don't believe Giannis is ever going to leave Milwaukee. Right. Like, because he keeps saying it, he keeps poking it out there. And I think like during the Knicks game there were some, there were some like lip reading people that said, like, I'm not leaving. Was it I'm not leaving or was it like, this is my city and I'm not going to ever leave you. At least that was what the, what the, what the Reddit's and the, and the conspiracy theorists out there were saying when they were trying to lip read. Which Howard is out here, you know, shaking his head no because, you know, he doesn't believe in consciousness conspiracy theories. And also I want to say, I will say this, I, I'm not going to shout out the cameraman or I will shout him out because he cut it, that camera angle at the Knicks game just at the right time where we were about to read his lips and they cut it to his brother. And I'm like, yo, man, we wanted to see what Giannis was saying all that to say Giannis's MVP case is great right now, but it's shaky because of the supporting cast. And I just don't know what, I don't have an answer to what they're going to be because if they, if Ryan Rollins goes back to where he's supposed to go or we think he goes and regresses to the mean, this is an average basketball team even with Giannis playing at this level. So that's going to push him down. He's the, he's one of the MVP candidates through five games. But it's probably going to be a, a tough time sailing keeping at this pace based on his supporting cast.

D (22:27)

Right now Giannis is going to finish top five at MVP voting as long as he makes the 65 game minimum and the Bucks are even semi respectable because Giannis is always in the top five in MVP voting because he always has the production to back it up. But it's hard to crack the top two if you're, if your team is not a contender. And yeah, I don't expect them to be either. A lot of things he would have.

A (22:49)

To average like 45, 15 and like 10 if he's going to win. They're going to win 43 games. Like, it would have to be like the Russell Westbrook type of like a MVP case.

D (22:58)

But also like, you, you, you can't approach 50 wins, which is what it usually requires to be a serious, serious MVP candidate. You can't approach 50 wins if you don't have another All Star in, in the supporting cast. And like, they just don't like, it's. I'm sorry, it's not going to be Ryan Rollins. It's not going to be Miles Turner, who is the most accomplished teammate he has. You know, AJ Green, like, you know Bobby Portis, Gary Trent, like, there's like, there's a bunch of good players here, solid rotation guys, but not the kind of guys who are going to carry you to a 50 to 50.

A (23:31)

They're like average to below average supporting cast right now. And this is what it is.

D (23:36)

Yeah, but Giannis raises all boats and that's what he has to do. That's his mission this season. But I mean, listen, as recently as, I don't know, I think five minutes before we started recording today, there was another Shams report about, you know, keep an eye on LeBron, Giannis and Trey as possible trade candidates this season. I don't think we should be shocked by any of that. And that's not saying that there's anything in the works. It's just that they are all in uncertain positions. LeBron and Trey Young are on expiring deals. We know the situation with LeBron in particular. Giannis is eligible for like a $300 million extension next summer, which if he were to get to that point and say no, suddenly they're on the clock and things get really stressful in Milwaukee. So, like, everything just depends on how the next couple of months go. I don't expect an in season Giannis trade. I don't know that I ever expect a Giannis trade necessarily. But we are. We are. This is an inflection point for the Bucks, and this season matters and how the next couple of months goes matters because it, you know, as he said, I think on media day, you know, I could feel differently in six or seven months because I'm only human and that's fair.

A (24:53)

Well, the problem is they don't have. The Milwaukee Bucks have little to no trade assets unless they trade Giannis. Right. They don't have any picks. Miles Turner I don't think is going to fetch like, big things on the trade market. Like he's like the really their only trade piece on the roster at this point.

D (25:08)

Yeah. There's no moves here to make for them?

A (25:11)

No, not at all. And so like, I just, I, I know Giannis probably wants to stay and I know I'm really contradicting myself and what I just said like literally five minutes ago because I don't think he necessarily wants to leave. That's why he keeps getting pushed back. But there's really no world and like to improve this team other than trading away the greatest player in franchise history. And we'll see what happens, man. But it's good to see him balling at this point and I don't know how long this is going to last. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. All right, basketball is back and Fanduel is putting you in control. Right from tip off every day to start the season, you get to choose your reward, play it safe, go for it. Feeling bold, that's your move. Move. Whatever your style, you are in control. So what kind of better are you? I'm going to take the Hawks. Pacers. I think I'm going to take the over on that Celtic. Sixers. That's Cliff's team. I'm going to take Cliff's team, the Sixers and I'm going to take the over in the game. Pick them. Raptors, Cavaliers. I think I'm going to take the Cavaliers and we're going to take the under. Knicks, Bulls. I think I'm going to take the over on that game and I'm going to take the Knicks. NBA cup action there. The Lakers and Grizzlies. I'm going to definitely take the over on Austin Reeves points and I think I'm going to take the under on Jabaran. Assist. Huh? Why not? Jazz Suns. Think I'm going to take the over on that. Nuggets. Trailblazers. I think I'm going to take the over on that. I'm going to take the Nuggets. Pelicans, Clippers. Wow. Right in the Indu a dome. I think I'm going to take the over on Zion Williamson. Rebounds. However you play, Fanduel is giving you the power to choose your reward and own your game every single day. To start the NBA season, head to FanDuel.com backslash ringer NBA to make your choice must be 21 years and older and present in select states. Are 18 and older and present in DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Opt in required rewards or non withdrawable restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration legs requirements and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chat in Connecticut this episode is brought to you by Indeed. A good team is more than just skilled players. It's all about the people who provide support from behind coaches, trainers, physical therapists, medical teams. It takes all sorts of different people with different skills. The same is true for any business. But if you need help finding the right people with the right skills and background for your company, I'd start with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It's a simple way to make your job post stand out from the crowd and reach who you need to faster. According to Indeed data, by the time this ad ends, company like yours will have made 27 hires on Indeed Worldwide. See for yourself how effective it can be. Find the candidates who check all your boxes faster with Indeed sponsored jobs listeners. This show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com RingerMBA that's Indeed.com Ringer MBA. Support the show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.comringermba Terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right way with Indeed.

D (28:08)

This episode is brought to you by Brooks Running. Brooks reminds us that we're all powered by something from the me time energy of a run after a workday, the electric energy felt on a race day starting line, or the infectious energy of a group run with your friends. Brooks makes gear designed to unleash your energy, whether it's the Feel Good Distraction Free Ghost, the supercharged Hyperion Max, or the fan favorite Adrenaline. Because at the end of the day, one step has the power to change everything. Let's run there. Head to BrooksRunning.com to learn more.

B (28:41)

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C (29:08)

Let's get to Howard's pick. Nikola Jokic Howard's Preseason.

A (29:12)

Wow. Wait, I thought you were gonna do the Cliff homer pick.

C (29:14)

Nah, you just texted me that you.

A (29:16)

Were gonna do it. No, do it. Let's just do it for shits and gigs. Let's just do it for shits and gigs. Okay.

C (29:19)

You wanna do the homer pick? Let's do the homer pick. Tyrese Maxey.

D (29:25)

He'S on the MVP track.

C (29:26)

Tyrese Maxey is on the mvp. Can't argue with you right now. My boy is going absolutely crazy, playing damn near all game. 37 points per game, 45% from the field, 47% from 3, 8 assists per game. I mean, this guy's downhill. Gets any shot he wants, gets open anytime he wants. Has his running mate, VJs coming. They're trying to call them VJ. Max Sixers are undefeated right now. I mean, look, it's possible.

A (29:52)

I got a question for you. I got a question for you. At this point, do you want PG and Embiid to come back right now?

C (29:58)

Yes, I absolutely want them to come back, and I want them to come back and be a part of this. Because, look, the Sixers can. The east is up, man. It's up for these. Shout out to my boy. Stephie's on the call right now, but you know, the Sixers can't compete. Hey, if they. If Embiid and Paul George can somewhat contribute, the Sixers could absolutely play. Go toe to toe with them in any playoff series. I'm. Look, it's not wishful thinking. Howard said this before the season. I was down on my luck. I was just like, ah, same old Sixers, same old Sixers. But I'm starting to believe again, man. I'm feeling it.

A (30:26)

I love.

C (30:26)

I love what they got going on right now. And Tyrese Maxey has been at MVP level all season, and I think it's going to continue. I don't think. I mean, obviously he's not going to average 37 a game, but I mean, 30 a game for Tyrese Maxey. That's very achievable. Very achievable.

A (30:40)

I love that. I love that for Tyrese Maxey. I just don't think this is sustainable. I think it would be sustainable if you didn't have PG NMB coming back. But I just don't see this as sustainable. I think there's going to be a seasonal reckoning because 2. You have two sides of the coin, right? You have this very exciting, up and down, beat your ass exciting team, and then you're gonna have these two superstars are going to want to take back their share of the offense and it's a really tough thing to juggle. And I just think that it's going to be an inflection point at this point and that's going to really undercut Maxi's candidacy. And I did, I really just threw the ball off the backboard to make you do that just so I could say this. So I apologize. But that's what I just see, Howard. I, I see a great story being nose dived at when Embiid and PG come back. I'm sorry, Embiid.

D (31:27)

No, hold on. First of all, Embiid is already back. Like he's been playing. Like he took no, when he gets.

A (31:31)

Off menace restriction and when he's completely can be embed and when Pete and then when Paul George comes into the fold.

D (31:37)

Right. Like, and the thing is, like, I don't want to, I don't want to prematurely, you know, I don't want to prematurely Kareem Embiid, like. But you know, you get toward the end of your career and sometimes it's nice to be able to lean on a fresh young stud who can just, you know, go all out for 35, 38 minutes a game. Is, it's too like, Embiid is too young to be Kareem, you know, passing the baton to Magic. Right. But Embiid has been so banged up with so many surgeries and everything, we don't actually know what he will get back to. I've been the optimist on this, saying, hey, why? There's no reason to think that he can't get back to whatever, 80, 90% of what he was. But that's yet to be seen. We don't know. And for right now, he looks very, he doesn't always look comfortable on the court the way he's moving, although it was a little better the last game. But I do think he has looked comfortable in letting Maxi be the thrust of this offense, being the engine of this offense. I don't know that Embiid everything after everything he's gone through, unless he feels close to 100% and then it's like, okay, it's my time again. I'm still the guy. I can still be an MVP candidate. I can still be all NBA. I can still be one of the best players in this league.

A (32:50)

Yeah.

D (32:50)

Then Logan, I understand where the chemistry issues and the ego issues kind of could get involved, but at this stage it's a huge luxury for him to be able to kind of like ease back in and Let Maxi and Edgecomb and others carry the load. Paul George is late in his career, you know, a few years older than embiId. I think four or five years older than Embiid. Like Paul George, I don't think is going to come back needing to be the man. So I'm not. I'm not as concerned about the chemistry thing as you are. I'm more concerned just about, like, the overall, like, the basketball chemistry, the mix, whether the two old vets, older vets, can stay healthy long enough for them to be that competitive. But the talent across the board is there, especially if Edgecomb is going to have a rookie of the year type season and Maxi, obviously, he'll come back to earth a little bit. But I think my concern with Maxi is, like, dude plays just so all out. I'm a little worried about, like, the minutes and the wear and tear because he also just takes a beating. Like, he's. He's throwing himself in there among the trees in the paint. By the way, can we just talk about VJ Max as a nickname for Real quick?

A (33:52)

It's Pretty Fire. Shout Out K. Scott.

D (33:54)

No, no. Phenomenal word play and brand play. But, like, how many NBA players are shopping at TJ Max? That's kind of like. Like, do we really want to be Nick?

A (34:06)

That's not the point.

D (34:06)

Like the discount clothing chain.

A (34:08)

Hey, man. Hey. I'm going to say this right now. We are not going to disperse the name the of TJ Maxx on this podcast. I don't care in what context and who we're talking about.

D (34:17)

You were more of a Ross Dress for Less guy. Logan.

A (34:19)

No, bro, I used to go to. I used to get all my clothes from TJ Maxx, bro. I remember I got a Kuji jacket. And after Fresh. Oh. Going into freshman year of high school, and it was like MSRP was like 300. I got that thing for $50 at TJ Maxx, bro. And I wore the out of that thing. I was out here icy. I thought I was Biggie Smalls.

D (34:39)

But you're too young to remember Mervyn's in the Bay Area.

A (34:42)

You. You got me effed up, bro. I know about Mervyn's. I'm not about to mess with none of them. What the.

D (34:47)

I brought up all the Mervyns for a long time. How about the Empire?

A (34:51)

I'm not as young as you think, Emporium. I don't know what that. I don't know what that. That's. Jesus Christ. Okay. I know Mervyn's. You know What? I mean, I know, I know teacher, I know Montgomery Ward. Hey, listen, all right, this. I know me some Montgomery war. They have one rip 70s and 80s, man. Yeah, yeah, I got a little bit of that. But I'm just saying we're not going to besm the name with TJ Max. And BJ Max is a great thing. That means they're for the people. Howard, what are you talking about? Philly's a working class town. They're not with that. They're not going to be like Bertolf Goodman. They leave that to Stefan and them New Yorkers, bro. We went out here, bro. We go to beards and we locked in, huh? No, Stefan Anderson, not Stefan. Yeah, Stefan Anderson. I'm talking about him. The New Yorkers, they, they the bougie types. Anyways, we got off track. Shout out Maxi. The only the thing though, you know, they're. I, I don't, I'm not as concerned about necessarily. Like the fall off of Maxi is like Edgecomb, right? There's always a rookie wall, especially around January, February. How are they. They still have evolutions that they need to have throughout the season. And you're right. Hopefully Embiid. You know, even when he, as if or when he does continue to get healthy, that he does just kind of fall in line. Right. But then there's like kind of perky quotes that I'm concerned about. He's like, I'd rather stay home than, than I might as well stay home than play this 20 minute restriction. Right. And then Paul George, we've already talked about how, you know, he has a bit of some of his identity crisis with some of the quotes that he puts out. I'm just a little concerned. That's all it is. I'm just a little concerned.

D (36:22)

I don't mind MB pushing back against the minutes restriction because that's frustrating for any player when they're like, hey, look, I want to do more. I hate, I hate having to be, you know, pulled from a game in the third quarter.

A (36:31)

Right.

D (36:31)

Like that's fine. I prefer that to I gotta shoot 20 times a game or I need the office to run through me or you know, various versions of that. He's not, he's not saying I still have to be the number one guy.

A (36:44)

Is this Les Kareem and maybe more late stage Pat Ewing.

D (36:50)

Late stage Shaq even. Yeah. I mean it's tough when you're, when you've spent your entire career as the guy and you're used to just like dominating people and having everything revolve around you like it is. It is tough to kind of downshift or. Or take on a secondary role. But I don't know, the. Just the accumulation of all the injuries and surgeries and everything that Embiid's gone through. I don't know, maybe. Maybe that's. That's kind of changed his outlook a little bit. But we'll see. I want to see where he is physically a month from now and then how that translates to the court and the by play. You know, the interactions between him and the rest of the supporting cast. Is Paul George back by then? Like there's. There are like several iterations of the Sixers to go here yet.

A (37:36)

A lot of Sixers talk, Cliff. A little bit more than we do.

C (37:39)

I don't even most of the time.

A (37:40)

But hey, we're here.

C (37:41)

I didn't even ask for it. I was trying to get the yokesh. I was. I wanted to get to a gorilla candidate. The dude is currently averaging triple double right now. I think. I believe he's the first person since Oscar Robinson the average or to have a triple double.

A (37:53)

And Russell Westbrook, which is insane, totally.

C (37:56)

Insanity after the Nuggets lost.

A (37:58)

And Russell Westbrook. Don't disrespect.

C (37:59)

No, no, no. No disrespect to Russ. We. We love Russ over here, right?

D (38:02)

Howard playing the role of Raja Bell.

A (38:04)

Today is Logan Murdoch, Virgo gang.

C (38:07)

So after the loss of the warriors, the Nuggets have been on a tear. Absolutely smacking teams right now. They're currently top five in offensive rating and defensive rating. Howard, where we have with this Yokesh thing, you said he's at 17% on whatever that scale is right there. I mean, come.

D (38:23)

The algorithm is very much disrespecting Nicola Jokic. So he's at 7.6% on the. On the basketball reference MVP tracker. Just. Just disrespect from the algorithm. No disrespect on the real ones, though. No, dude, Jokic is still the best player in the NBA. I'm not passing that to Wemby just yet. The Nuggets are off to a perfectly fine, solid start. I think, you know, Cam Johnson still kind of, I think finding his way with them and. But you know, Aaron Gordon, you know, really fast start to the season. Jamal Murray's looking like his old self. The Nuggets are right in the thick of things. Jokic is just doing Jokic things, which we will. You know, I think we. He long ago reached the take him for granted level of NBA star Where we, like, he puts up these stupid numbers on ridiculous efficiency, and we're just used to it. We're numb to it. And for that team, the only thing that matters is can they get back to the Finals, right? So anything short of that is going to feel like a disappointment. But Jokic's numbers, like, they basically never falter. His production never falters. His playmaking, his scoring, everything he does for that team, it's as consistent as you can possibly get in this league. And the Nuggets are just going to be there, and we're going to get, you know. You know, stars in our eyes as we watch Wemby and maybe Maxi and other guys and Austin Reeves do their thing early in the season. But we know what it's going to be in April, the Nuggets are going to be one of the top two or three teams in the west, and Jokic is going to have stupid numbers again. And he's, you know, he was my preseason pick for MVP and a lot of others, and, you know, I think there's a pretty damn good chance that's where we end up.

A (40:03)

Yeah, man. I mean, he's slow mostly with the post and trying to get to the ocean, man. You know, they're throwing that. I saw that. I saw him play against Minnesota, and it was just textbook, man. It was this textbook. Run the offense through him. It's just meat and potatoes. I'm gonna get my numbers and we're gonna go get up out of here. I think one thing I just want to see from the Nuggets is just consistency throughout the season. And one thing that I. They take their foot off the gas, and that's one of the. One of the things. And I wonder. I feel like this team is a bit more rejuvenated, you know, after all of the BS that happened with Michael Malone last year in the front office and the infighting, I think the Nuggets this season have a lot to prove and that that's something that they're showing. And I'm not really, like, too concerned with the inconsistency of Cam Johnson. You know, I think that he's just a steady force, and I think that's something that they needed as opposed to the unpredictability of Michael Porter Jr. Who you're going to see a lot of in Brooklyn, Howard, but a lot of.

D (41:00)

In viral reels of him saying wacky things on his podcast and elsewhere.

A (41:06)

Listen, I've been trying to avoid it, but Cliff keeps putting them in the Instagram chat with Me and V, like, I'm literally trying to avoid everything. Michael Porter Jr. But Cliff likes to troll, and that's what we're gonna see. Anyways, I'd really like to.

D (41:19)

Cliff has put that in the chat just with you guys and not the one that also includes me, because he probably already knows what's gonna happen.

A (41:27)

Howard Beck has left the conversation. No, I. I think they're slow motion, man. I think that he's going to be right in the fold of things.

C (41:35)

He's.

A (41:37)

I mean, even the algorithm takes joke. It's for granted at this point. Right. And, you know, we'll see what happens. But one thing that I just want to see is I want to see Nuggets continue to keep their foot on the gas and just put the fear of God in teams. And I think that that's something that they struggled to do over the last few years. And just curious, losses that continue to happen, just like in March and early April before they get to the postseason. But they're fine. They're right in the thick of things. And YIC is Jokic.

C (42:11)

I like it. I like it a lot. Now, Logan, let's get to Austin. I'm him. Reeves going crazy right now without LeBron. And Luca. You looking real festive today. Why you got the purple and gold like that? What's going on over there? Logan, you got a LA Kings joint?

A (42:25)

LA Kings joint? This was my excuse. My. It's Halloween. Halloween. I just wanted to dress like a hockey player today. That's really all this was. You were supposed to dress like a hockey player. Where the hell is your mask?

C (42:34)

Oh, I got my.

A (42:35)

Did you. Weren't you. Weren't you supposed to be festive? Don't you have a hockey jersey, too?

C (42:40)

I do got a hockey jersey, but it's. It's sitting in the back right now, and I. You know, I'm not gonna put it on now, but, you know, I got the mask.

A (42:46)

This.

C (42:46)

This mask is gonna be worn. I'm gonna be a Broad street bully, so, you know, it fits right.

A (42:50)

You outside tonight? You outside tonight?

C (42:52)

No, I'm not outside tonight. I'm. You know, I'm gonna take it easy.

A (42:56)

Okay?

C (42:56)

But let's. Let's get to Austin. Austin. I'm Emery's. Logan's favorite player in the NBA right now. He sends all the memes that Austin reeves him and braids. So Austin reads the last five games without LeBron and Luca. He's averaging 40 points, 10 assists, six rebounds, and the splits are 50, 40, 90 in those games. So I mean, what does this mean for the Lakers as a whole? Austin Reeves, man, is he an MVP candidate for real Howard, that said 1%, you know, is he a dark horse? What are we doing here with Austin Reese's? I might put some money on that.

D (43:29)

I think he should screenshot the basketball reference MVP tracker right now. Like print it out, frame it, put it on the wall. Just for keepsake, you know, Luca. Luca could be back as soon as tonight. I think they've upgraded him to questionable. So yeah, the real Laker MVP candidate will be back soon and then LeBron will be back in a few weeks. And I think Austin Reeves stats and thus algorithm results are going to take a bit of a hit. But I mean, listen, like, incredible week and exactly what the Lakers needed at a time when they don't have their two stars. And I mean, we've seen flashes from Austin Reeves before. He's a really talented offensive player. He could do a lot with the ball in his hands. He can run your offense, he can score and he can get on a run like this. I don't think this is what you expect for an 82 game run. I don't think in a potential future without LeBron, it's suddenly the Luca and Austin Reeves show and you can say, there we go, we're good to go. I think that's a bit of a stretch. But listen, this is a, you know, this is a win for the Lakers on several levels. Homegrown, undrafted. You know, Rob Palink in his front office found this guy. He has done nothing but improve every season. He's already 27 years old, right? Like, it feels like he's young because he's only in his fifth season, but he was a four year player and he's 27 years old. So like he's in his prime. I'm not saying he's old, but like, this is not. Like you don't expect a ton more growth or evolution to happen by the time a guy's hit this age. He gives them some sort of assurance. So that in the course of this season, when Luka or LeBron are not available or ailing you, you have somebody else you can play through. That's great. He's also heading to free agency and the price on him, it seems like, just keeps going up year after year for when he hits free agency. And then, you know, a run like this only enhances that. Our buddy Dan Wieke over at the Athletic had done a story like right before training camp, noting that Austin Reeves had turned down a four year, $89 million extension this summer in June, that would have been 22 million a year. That was the most the Lakers could offer in an extension. He has a player option for 14.8 million next summer that he's definitely going to turn down. And so Dan Wyke again for the Athletic talked to a bunch of people around the league over the course of the summer. They expect Reeves to earn. This is a team in league sources expect Reeves to earn more than 35 million a year on his next deal. And that a couple of them even said he could command 40 million a year. So that's a lot for the Lakers to have to consider, right? Because Luke is making the max. Austin Reese could be making 35, 40. It starts to really squeeze you when you still actually need a second star, right? I don't think Austria should be your, your third best player in this equation if you're trying to contend. So LeBron could come off the books. Austin Reeves stays on. If they're keeping him at that price, it gets tricky.

A (46:38)

I do wonder, and I was one, one thing I was wondering when you're finally going to get to the point of like, does Austin Reese make LeBron expendable? But I do wonder about the market, right? Especially when the NBA is in this hard cap era because yes, he is playing out of his mind and there's a bit of a Lakers tax with Reeves, but if you're paying Austin Reeves $40 million, that's like face of the franchise money. So what, what other team is going to take that risk? I mean, you know, the Sacramento Kings definitely exist, right? I mean, I don't know if they're going to necessarily have the cap space. They might, but you know, if they make do some maneuvering but like what team out there is going to say, hey, we want Austin Reeves at $40 million a pop or $35 million a season to lead our team to a championship? Because that's literally what we're asking right now. Maybe just Charlotte say, yo, Austin Reeves can get us to the promised land right now. Not saying that he's not going to get the money, but I do wonder, like in this new, in this new era of where we're going and these ballooning salaries, are these players actually going to get them if they aren't actually franchise level guys, right? We talked about even with Memphis, right? And that's kind of the concern level with Ja, like, are you going to pay him all this money where they're at right now? And that's John Morant, who I do believe as a face of the franchise right now is better than Austin Reeves. That's the question that I'm really don't really have an answer for. Right. Because right now it's easy to say he's a 40 million dollar player when he's balling and he's on TV every day and he's scoring these bonkers numbers. But like, if a team actually wants to win a championship, do they want to build around a guy like that who you said is 27 years old is probably not a second even a number two guy on your team? Like, what is the expectation when you're bringing in Austin Reeves into the building? That's, you know, like it's, it's, it's a little too inflated. And I do wonder as we get into our cap and we get into this new era, I know you can't necessarily guard against, you know, front office stupidity, but is that the, really the right decision going forward if you're another team trying to poach a guy? Like, you're trying to bid $40 million to get 39 wins, like, I just don't see it. Like that's, that's going to be a scary, increasingly be a scary proposition as the years go on. When you see the Austin Reeves of the world play inflate like maybe above that they do above their ability during a few weeks stretch. Like, I just don't know have the answer for that. And I think that that's going to be something that's going to be interesting going forward.

D (49:18)

Yeah. To be clear, like those estimates on what he might earn next summer, that was from interviews that Dan Wiecky was doing back in like September and August. This is, that's before he goes on, on this historic streak that he just went on. Historic for him.

A (49:33)

Well, what I'm saying is this something. I get it. They're saying this in, in September. They were also saying that about Kaminga a few years ago too as well. It's one thing to, to, to, to, to predict what he's going to get versus him actually being in the open market.

D (49:47)

When we talk to people around the league, executives, scouts, other people, and we start trying to get a sense of like a guy's worth, his trade value, his free agent market value, all that stuff, I think it's definitely baked in Logan, as you're pointing out, like, it's easier for guys to say this in theory based on, oh, I'm seeing this guy do XYZ every night. I think he could command this kind of salary, that's what it would be worth. And it's. The market conditions are different. Right? Because as you note, we are in a virtual hard cap era. It's, you know, it's not really a hard cap, it's the second apron, but it's functioning for a lot of teams like a virtual hard cap. And things are tighter than they've ever been. And the last couple of summers have been pretty quiet on the free agency front. I think there's maybe a half dozen teams that could have significant cap room next summer and the summer after that. It's going to loosen up even more. So we are going to get closer to equilibrium again. Right? Like, it takes teams a while to recalibrate when you're in a much harsher, tighter new economic system. But we will get there and there will be cap room. The question is, and this is the thing I've been posing to front office folks the last couple of years, ever since that CBA went into effect, is are we going to see a kind of a recalibration of even how we value second and third tier type stars? Right. And this is not to pick on a Zach Levine or a Brandon Ingram or guys at that tier, but guys who were getting max money at one time. But when you realize they're not really your franchise star and you can't build a competitive or a contending team around them, you need to ratchet those down to second tier, to third tier money instead. And so the question becomes is, you know, when Zach Levine comes up, he's not getting this kind of money again, right? So what you don't want to do is make Austin Reeves the next like Zach Levine. Apologies again to Zach Levine. I don't mean to be picking on him, but you have to, you, you have to pay guys their actual value. Sometimes it has to be a little bit above, but you'd like to pay them at their value or below to actually have a functioning roster that you can continue to build out. Because if you overpay a third or second tier player and make them a max guy, make them the guy that you, that is being paid like a franchise player, you're screwed. And in this sit really hard to, to regain that flexibility. You've, you've just married yourself to, you know, a really tight cap situation and very little flexibility. So I do think there's going to be a recalibration. I do think that teams are going to hold the line on the Austin Reeves types where, no, you shouldn't be paying him probably 35 or 40 million if you expect to build. Now granted the cap keeps going up too, right. So we really need to think in terms of percentage of the cap and not so much these eye popping numbers. And if 35 million of the cap today is whatever 30% of the cap, 25% of the cap and in the, in a few years from now if he's, if he were on a steady deal, on a flat deal, that's a less and less percentage of the cap as the cap goes up. Like you can probably find a way to mathematically make this work but you got to be careful and that works in the Lakers. Favorite. I do think real other quick thought on this before we leave the topic potentially. I don't know where you're going next with this Logan, but I just wanted to note this. I think this is a really critical inflection point for the Lakers and Rob Pelinka in this front office because LeBron came to the Lakers because LeBron wanted to play for the Lakers. Anthony Davis came to the Lakers because he wanted to play with LeBron and Klutch wanted him with LeBron. Luka ended up with the Lakers because Nico Harrison only wanted to negotiate with one. One team. Point being the hard part is that when you have the franchise star you have to build out the contender around him. And LeBron is soon to be 41 and probably coming off the books next summer and you have to replace him. They need, they need a running mate for Luca. Austin Reeves is, is a running mate but he's not the running mate. So figuring out, figuring out Austin Reaves, figuring out next summer period, figuring out who else you are going to bring to start building around Luca, who is about to turn 27 in February himself like Austin Reeves is on his timeline. That's cool. And he's a homegrown guy and everything else. But again you can't overspend on Austin Reeves if you still need to find a true number two co star to go with Luca. And by the way those two together would be a liability defensively. So your second star should hopefully be somebody who is a two way guy or could do a lot more in the defensive end. So I'm getting way ahead of myself here but I just, I think we're at a real inflection point because they have a lot of work to do and it's not, it's not obvious right now because you have Lucas still, you have LeBron coming back soon. You have Austin Reeves balling out. They're off to a Nice start. But like, there's, there's some really big stuff coming up for them in terms of just their decision making in the roster decisions.

A (54:34)

Absolutely. I mean, I think that. Well, there's two things here that I would respond to. One is like adding to the conversation that we just had in terms of value. I think LeBron is going to have a really harsh reality this summer when it comes to what his value is and what he perceives his value to be. It's going to be pretty rough for him. There's going to be a lot of posturing and all these things, and so we'll see what happens with that. But he's going to have a really stark reality when it comes to that. The other thing is the Lakers, just like pretty much everybody else in the league, is on Giannis watch. They want Giannis. They want to get Giannis in the building and they want it. That's who they want their coast co star alongside Luca to be. And he fits all the things that the Lakers want in a superstar historically and for the right now. And that's why they are hedging all of their bets and hedging and seeing what they're going to do for a trade or how they're going to, you know, look at the next few seasons. But they gotta, they gotta figure that out first, at least internally is Gianna's going to be available. So. And that is going to instruct how they go about how they LeBron's future and how they see Austin Reeves future and, you know, Lucas future in Los Angeles. But I think that's the first domino to fall right now. Like is what is Giannis going to do? And I think that's holding up a lot of their plans, or at least informing of a lot of their plans going forward.

D (56:11)

Yeah, and I should mention. So Giannis has the extension eligibility next summer. If he doesn't sign, he could be a free agent the following summer in 2027. So that's what you're seeing, right, with the Clippers. Their books are lined up for, for a ton of cap room in 2027. The Lakers are looking at 2027. The warriors are looking at 2027. You know, like, listen, every, every team that considers themselves a destination franchise in a, either a big market or a warm weather market, glamour market, they're all eyeing this. And I know that that pisses off Bucks fans and a lot of our listeners who I then end up hearing from every time we talk about this. But folks, I'm sorry, this is the Reality. This is what the league is. Everybody is plotting to steal your star, your star, any star. This is what they do. This is their jobs. And then we talk to them about that because it's our job. And then we talk about it and you get mad. I'm sorry.

A (57:06)

Okay.

C (57:08)

How happy.

A (57:08)

Let's take a quick break. Let's take a quick break. And then we're going to talk about little thing we like to call load management. Now, our son's new girlfriend is a former student. Don't miss anniversary. You know, I used to be afraid of you. I don't think I am anymore. Starring Diane Lane and Kyle Chandler. We need to be careful. She's trying to obliterate us. Anniversary. Rated R. And we are back. What's next on the docket?

C (57:34)

Cliff, let's get to the great one. Man. How happy are you guys to see Michael Jordan back in the basketball fold? I know Howard has some thoughts about mj. When we were out in LA having a good old time, watching some basketball. So how y' all feel about MJ being back? NBA on NBC, the whole thing, his conversation with Mike Tirico, everything.

A (57:52)

I. Wait. Before we get to what we're going to talk about, I just want to say NBC has had a fantastic rollout to their first year back in the league, man. Like, I love their coast to coast segments. I love their studio show, Maria Taylor. I love Bob Costas out here doing cameos, man. Like, they are putting their best foot forward forward and marketing the game and in a way that we just honestly haven't seen in at least a decade. I'm not going to say since NBC has had the rights because I feel like ESPN did a lot of great storytelling and I think there was a great, lot of great storytelling around the game. But I think the way NBC is going right now, I think that they're going to be the number one team in the next two years just in how we think about the league and how we think about, you know, where we go for, you know, league propaganda. And I think they're doing a great job. And yeah, man, I've been really excited. Like, Tirico's just great. Like, even in the interviews that we're going to get to, he's just great at what he does. He's so versatile in calling games, but also interviewing. And it's just been, you know, it's been awesome and been a treat to have NBC basketball back in our lives with the NBA.

D (58:59)

Love to Rico. But also, man, loved the Costas intro previewing Nick's Bucks the other night, like, that was like the ultimate throwback. I don't, you know, I don't know why every game can't be like this. Why can't, like, Costas, whoever he does, it doesn't have to be Bob Costas, although he is the master of this. Could we just get that style of intro of that hype that build up before every game or at least can.

A (59:24)

You care about the game networks like NBC does? Could you care about it, please? I just want to care as much as we do.

D (59:31)

Yeah. This isn't hard. No, I second everything you're saying. I have one. I have one note on the NBC thing.

A (59:39)

I bet you do.

D (59:41)

I always do. But they've been great. They've been fun. It's just fun, period. Shaking it up a little bit. And this is no shade at ESPN or Turner, but we've had the same two NBA national partners for a long time here. And the whole time, like, I'm still sad that things went the way they did with Turner in the NBA, but like, this whole time where we were like, oh, Amazon prime is getting a piece. Oh, NBC is coming back into the fold. Oh, they're hiring up. They're bringing in like, you know, some. Some old faces where they just poached from Turner or whatever, but they're bringing in new faces. It's going to be a new combination of folks in studio, different broadcast teams on the games. Like, just the fact that. That there's like a kind of a refresh is a good thing. And so I've been enjoying that in general.

C (60:23)

Anyways, the great one had a conversation with Mike Tirico and he mentioned load management in today's Players and load management. Let me just give you guys a quick quote. It shouldn't be needed. I never wanted to miss a game because it was an opportunity to prove I want to impress that guy way up in the top who worked his ass off to come watch me. So, guys, how do you feel about my. He said a lot of other things in. In the mix of that, too. But how do we feel about Michael Jordan being brought back to talk about load management in today's NBA players?

A (60:53)

I just want to say, like, I remember Howard just, like, sweating when he was reading the. When he was reading the release that Mike was going to talk about load management, and he was like, oh, God, I don't like it. I don't know. I don't know. And it was the same thing that I had when I saw the release for the first Michael Jordan clip that came out and I think this is great. I want to, I just, I just made the decision and I want to hear Jordan talk about everything. Everything. I don't care what it is, I don't care if I necessarily agree with him. But I think these interviews have been really, really good because Michael Jordan is just great one at talking and also making you emotional while he talks. And you know something about that camera angle that they have at his house. You can't see none of his eyes, they're like bright yellow. And it's something about him, just the intensity that he brings to it that he makes Mike Tirico wear Jordans if he's gonna come in his house. I just love all of that and I, I love seeing that from, from Mike. I think that me and Howard are going to differ on the conversation when it comes to load management. I'm gonna let him see the floor real quick to that and then I will respond because we kind of had the pod before the pod before the pod. But the floor is yours, Howard. And then I'll respond best based off what you say.

D (62:16)

Listen, any in, in general, I think any Michael Jordan participation in today's NBA and just having his voice back is a positive. Right? Greatest player of all time by most people's measures. And you know, ever since he retired, when he's gone into ownership, executive of a team, all these other things, like he's been pretty scarce. We don't hear from him often and he's still really important to the game. Everybody handles their retirement and their post playing careers in general differently. But I do think there's a responsibility that comes with being the guy who most of us think is the goat. And I'm glad NBC has him. I'm glad Mike Tirico is doing those interviews. I think. And this is not a criticism of NBC or Mike Tirico because there's a logistics aspect of this and there's a managing Michael Jordan aspect of this. The unfortunate part about, about this series, from what I can gather so far and I've not asked anybody this, it seems to me that they just recorded one long segment in one fell swoop in the off season and then we'll just bust out, you know, these three minute segments over the course of the whole season, which is fine, but it means you can't be timely. You can't check in on, on specific trends going on in season or guys breaking out. It's going to be more just Michael reflecting on things that are kind of evergreen, that are about this era or about his career or about whatever it may be. And I think every three minute segment will be captivating because it's Michael right to Logan's point, like it's just, we just want to hear from him. It's great, but it's all in a vacuum and it's probably all going to have been pre canned, but we'll have to be on watch to see if either of their outfits ever changes over the course of the next several months in these segments. I'm gonna guess not. So that's fine. I think where I was cringing as Logan not sweating Logan, just, just cringing a little. Just, just, just wincing a little. Need to hear anybody else from the 90s and the 2000s weigh in on load management or whether they shoot too many threes today. I just don't fucking need to hear it. And by the way, that goes for everybody of my generation too. Because it's my generation that keeps doing this shit for the most part. And the one old than mine. I don't need to hear it. I don't need to hear why today's game isn't as great as the 90s or the early 2000s or the 80s or anywhere anytime else. The game is in great shape. It's a lot of fun. It is different than the game that you played. And that's okay. The game evolves, deal with it. When it comes to load management, the problem I had with Michael being asked specifically, other than knowing what his answer was going to be before he ever said it. And again, this is not a criticism of Mike Tirico. I think this is a subject you almost have to ask Michael Jordan. Michael played 82 games eight times, I think. Yeah, eight seasons of 82 games plus an 81 and a 78 like. But that was emblematic of that era. That was indicative of how players approached it then. That's indicative of where sports science and sports medicine were then, which was like basically the dark ages compared to where we are today. Things have changed. And what I don't, where I don't want to hear from Michael on this or other people from that era is if you have not spoken to teams today, their front offices, their doctors, their. Yes, their analytics guys, their trainers, everybody who's involved now with keeping players healthy or trying to get them back to health. If you don't have contact with teams now and you have not had those conversations then you don't know. Michael Jordan knows way more about basketball and has forgotten more about the game than I will Ever know. But I, and neither of us are sports scientists, but it's part of my job to talk to the researchers and the doctors and the trainers and everybody else who manage this stuff so that I can try to understand it as a reporter. And what I can tell you is when Michael weighs in on this, he's doing it without having had those conversations, because what he's missing is the game is different today. They're running far more miles than they did in his time because the pace of the game is way higher. They're having to cover more ground in the course of a game because in this three point revolution era, everybody has to be able to guard out to the three point line. And so you're having to move a lot more. Go back folks, if you don't believe me, and watch on YouTube the games from the 90s where they just, you know, drag their butts up the court, get into a half court set and then, and then watch like Charles Bar Barkley or Pat Ewing or somebody just like pound the ball on the block and back somebody down. Or they go, you know, Iverson takes somebody in an isolation on one side of the court because of illegal defense rules. Again, go look it up, young kids. Illegal defense rules. The other eight guys are on the other side of the court, stuck there standing around watching two guys go. You didn't have to expend nearly as much energy. You didn't have to change direction as much. There was a lot less wear and tear on you. There were fewer miles, all of that. And on top of that, I'm guessing that Michael hasn't read the story by Baxter Holmes from 2019 on ESPN.com in which he went really deep on how AAU Ball has impacted today's NBA prospects that were by the time they get to the league, there's so much wear and tear that they are more susceptible to injury. All of which is to say is that load management, while regrettable, and I agree with what Michael said about the guy up in the upper deck who paid good money and wants to see him play. LeBron has said the same at times in the last several years. We all want these guys to play as much as possible, but they are extremely expensive investments. This is their careers, not ours. And the teams have to do what they think is right by the player and also by themselves. And I'll just end on this note before I throw it back to you, Logan, because I've been filibustering here, but I thought it was really instructive that when they went Back to studio to discuss this. Carmelo, who was of a more recent vintage, certainly came up on Michael in. In his time and very briefly overlapped during Michael's Wizards years that I'd pretend didn't happen.

A (68:23)

Actually, they didn't. Carmelo came. Carmelo came summer of 2003. And Mike. But he's.

D (68:30)

He and TMac and Vince Carter, who were all in studio are of the. Of the era of player who came up watching Michael and I think would lean more toward the. You play all 82 if you, if you can, you play as many games you can. You play every minute you can. But Carmelo and Tracy in particular, Vince was. Was kind of went his own direction on this and was more in Michael's camp. Tracy and Carmelo both said, listen, there's actually reasons to do this. And Tracy actually said, because, you know, TMAC had, you know, debilitating injuries that shortened his career. And he said, I wish we had it in my time. If I were playing today, like my career would be longer. And I thought that was really instructive too, because these guys, you know, t Mac started in the 90s, Carmelo started in the early 2000s. But they both have an appreciation for where the game has gone in terms of trying to take better care of the players. And I think they understood it in a more nuanced way than Michael did. And so I thought that was actually one of the strengths of that studio show the other night was that they actually provided some of the perspective that I think Michael needed on this.

A (69:34)

I think that's why, even if it is cookie cutter segments, I think that that's still going to. They're gonna. All the segments are gonna do great because you have that back and forth between, you know, different eras of players. I agree with pretty much all the things that you said, including. But I do agree with Michael. And this is why this is a problem that's kind of peaked up in the league right now with having more games is the fact that you're going to. It's going to be the norm if it's not the norm already, that you're not going to see your favorite player play when you want him to see them play. And it's interesting just being on the west coast. Like we only get Giannis once a year, right? We're only going to get Wimby once a year. And I mean, I don't know, you know, you got some rich ass friends, Howard. I don't got that many rich friends, but like, you know, people. People pay money like as soon as the tickets come out and the schedule comes out in August, they're paying for May and, and just to be in the upper deck, right. And I remember, I think it was, it was 2017, when it was Christmas 2017, LeBron versus Stephen. And there was this big rollout at. It was one of the first times that this came out. The load management thing. I think this was like the, the impetus of it, at least in a scouting report, not a scout report, in an injury report. Excuse me. When LeBron said he wasn't going to play and it came out on Christmas Day, he wasn't going to play against Steph. There were so many people that were disappointed in that building at Oracle arena because they were excited to see LeBron versus Steph. And that's going to continue to happen. And if it wasn't a problem, the league wouldn't have put the 65 game rule in right. For all NBA. It's something that they're going to have to deal with, with the science and then with the amount of games because fans are beginning to be turned off by this. Right? Like this is an NBA specific problem. Because in the NFL, nine times out of 10, like if they're not injured. For real. For real, like you're going to see Lamar Jackson in week eight, right? Like they. They're gonna play. And you can all not necessarily guarantee because there's injuries everywhere, but there's always going to be an expectation that you're going to see Lamar Jackson, you're going to see Pat Mahomes when he plays, you're going to see these stars. And that's just not a real as realistic in the NBA because. Not even. Because there's a real engine. Not necessarily. No. Let me cut that out. And not necessarily because you know there is an injury, but maybe somebody's resting. That's really disappointing for a fan that is like, forget Steph vs Giannis or LeBron vs Giannis or KD. What if KD comes to Charlotte once a year, which he does because he's in the Western Conference. That's going to be a sad fan in Charlotte because they're not going to be able to see their favorite player. There's going to be an even more of an accusation that the NBA doesn't care about its fan base. Right. I mean, you saw that a lot when Adam Silver said the things that he said about highlights. But I think this is. There's going to come to an inflection point with this load management conversation. If there already hasn't been one. But that's the only thing that I have to push back on because this is a league wide issue and it's going to continue to be a league wide issue because it's like, yo, why am I paying? Tickets are more expensive than they ever been with the hidden fees with the secondary market to watch these stars. And if you spend your hard on money, we know how the economy is, we're not going to get into that right now. But you spending your hard on money to see these guys and all of a sudden it's like, oh, this dude is resting right now. What the. Like that's, that's really, that's a really annoying thing to do. And then they're saying, I'm talking about specifically from the fan perspective. And then you're going to say, well you know, we're pushing them, we're trying to get them ready for the playoffs. Like in the average fan is like the playoffs, bro. Like, I can't afford that. I can't afford that. So that's going to continue to be a problem for the NBA who's already pushing back on the notion that they don't care about their fans. And that's going to continue to happen as this load management argument continues to.

D (73:46)

Permeate like every serious issue in this league. There are competing interests that the NBA is trying to weigh against each other and balance and this one's tough. They don't want to tell teams how to set up their rotation or how many guys, how many guys to play or how many minutes they should play or when they can rest or when they need to rehab or whatever else. The NBA does not want to be in the business of telling teams when to play their guys. On the other hand, if you are the Utah Jazz and you've sat Lowry Markkanen with suspicious non injuries, then you find the Utah Jazz to police that part. If you want teams to play their players more often, then you create the 65 game rule which acts as a little bit of a hedge or a floor to make, you know, try to ensure that teams don't abuse load management practices. Right. So the NBA is trying, right? They keep tweaking their rules. Their player participation policy that they rolled out a few years ago addressed things like if you're going to rest a guy on the, on a, on a back to back, rest him in the home game and not the road game. I think that was in the player participation policy. So to your Charlotte example with Durant, the idea is like don't rest the Guy like rest him at home where those fans at least have a chance to see him more often. If it's, if he's going to a city that he's only going to be in once and at most twice in a season, don't do it then. Don't rest multiple starters or stars on the same night. Like the NBA is all these guidelines to try to mitigate this. And even as they acknowledge like, yeah, there's some sports science behind this. The NBA has tried to push back on the sports science in recent years, but the teams don't buy it. The teams and their staffs are still, are still doing it this way because they believe this is what's best for the health of their players. We also have to make a distinction between like straight up rest or a guy just like not wanting to play, which I don't think happens very often versus injury management and guarding against fatigue that leads to injury or fatigue that leads to exacerbating an existing injury. That kind of stuff like, and there's plenty of science behind that. So you know, and again like most of this is teams telling the players. When Jordan and others from other eras are like, oh guys, you should go out there and play. The players 90 something percent of the time are not the ones saying I don't want to play.

A (76:00)

Also, let's speak frank. Back in the day in the front.

D (76:03)

Office that are, that are telling them.

A (76:04)

We'Re sitting you tonight and Jordan's day there was like one trainer and like one team doctor. Back in the day there was not like a whole sport science team when.

D (76:14)

Jordan played armies of them. Now by the way, guys, note one other thing about Jordan. The Jordan stands are going to come at me on this, but I don't care.

A (76:23)

Stay up bro. Stay off blue sky and Twitter. I've been trying to tell you this, bro. You're not, you know when you don't see the fans, when you fling your phone or delete the app.

D (76:30)

So him, Michael Jordan load managed. He just did it differently. He retired in 1993 after nine seasons. He took nearly two years off before returning. Played 17 games that year, played four more full seasons, retired again in 1998. So now he's 13 seasons in. Played two kind of wonky seasons at best at age 38, 39 for the Wizards. So across. So that's 14 plus seasons, not even a full 15. 14 plus seasons across 19 years. 1072 games divided by 1956.4 games per year. Did I just factor in the years where he didn't play at all. Yes, I did. Do you think Jordan actually preserved his body a little bit during those interludes?

A (77:14)

See, but he wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't actually preserving his body back. You're not even getting the whole play. He was preserving his mind. Open your third eye. He was stressed. He didn't want the life.

D (77:25)

Plus he was playing baseball for part of that too. So he wasn't really resting, I guess.

A (77:29)

But like I would say this though, baseball, you know that it's a different, there's a difference between a baseball body and yeah, yeah, yeah, fat guys can play baseball.

D (77:38)

Shout out to John Crook. I mean Jordan like when he played and especially in his prime years at the Bulls, he did play all 82 or as close to it as possible. So respect there. I'm being a little bit cheeky about this, but it's not insignificant that Jordan, over the course of his 14 plus seasons as an NBA player had these, these big spans off entirely because he kept retiring and then unretiring and that helped get him to age 38, 39, even though he wasn't the same Jordan in, in Washington. You wouldn't be playing that if he had played straight through and never retired. He wasn't going to still be playing then.

A (78:16)

There's no yeah. But it's not just, it's not just Jordan saying that stuff right about this generation. There's also Kareem Abdul jabbar who played 20 years and played as many games as he could and had his body in fantastic shape. It's, it's Carl Malone who's, who was the iron man streak and continue to play and didn't get injured. It's, it's that crop of older guys who are like, yo, we kept our body in fantastic shape and we weren't getting injured. So you should, should keep your body in fantastic shape and so you can play every game.

D (78:44)

Yes. And what those guys are failing to realize is all the things I said earlier that I don't need to repeat about how the game has changed and sports science has changed and the guys are arriving in the NBA already with their bodies in a more vulnerable position because of all the au ball they played. So like it's just different and there's no different.

A (79:01)

The frustrating thing is like there's no putting the toothpaste back in the tube when it comes to aau. It's a legitimately million dollar enterprise, multi million dollar enterprise. Right. Like that's like the next professional frontier is AAU basketball. When you, when you See it and just like, it's so professionalized now. We like. It's. It's crazy. It's crazy.

D (79:21)

People go look up Baxter Holmes's story from ESPN in 2019. Like, if you don't understand what I'm referring to here or not sure about it. It's all about AU and the miles put on guys, but also the specialization at a young age. It's all these things. And there's all kinds of people who are far more authoritative than I am in this story talking about their concern for the health of NBA players or NBA prospects by the time they arrive because of all this. This is a very, very real thing. And Adam Silver himself has said, like, this is something that they need to try to address. But it's hard at the NBA level to fix what's going on in youth sports. So. But this is a very real subject. It's just one that doesn't get addressed very often because it's easier just to complain about load management and guys not playing.

A (80:04)

All right, that was a great discussion. Ready to go. But first, we have a little segment that we're bringing back on the Fridays called Real One of the week where we shout out a person, entity and organization that won the week. This really. Howard said he didn't stress and wasn't really sweating about the load management MJ conversation. Just a little nervous. I think he was sweating for the ruin of the week, which is why I'm going to give him the first opportunity to give the fans his ruin of the week. Who is it and how much did you stress making this decision about this very supposed fun award?

D (80:49)

Logan knows how seriously I take this as I take all things on this pod and that I will not do a single segment about anything without researching it first. Like, if Logan said we're talking about Twinkies tomorrow, I'm probably going to like the Wikipedia page. I might visit the Twinkies plant.

A (81:05)

Where is the Twinkies plant?

D (81:06)

I have no fucking idea.

A (81:08)

Look at him nervous. Look at him nervous. That's what we go through all the time.

D (81:11)

Sounds like something would be in like in Pennsylvania somewhere. Like near like, like Hershey. Pennsylvania's out there. They got the chocolate plant. Like the Twinkies plant. Seems like it should just be like right next door, shouldn't it? Cliff could tell me.

A (81:21)

Go ahead and do yours and I'll let you know. Hold on. Go ahead.

D (81:24)

This one was actually easy because on Wednesday night I was fortunate enough to be able to attend the screening of Mount Mutombo documentary that's coming out now about Dikembe Mutombo, his life, his humanitarian work as well as his basketball career. And the film was fantastic. I don't know where people can see it or will be able to see it, but keep an eye out for it. I highly, highly, highly recommend it. So my real one of the week is combo here. Dikembe Mutombo, rest in peace. And the director, producer Dina Crino. I don't know if I'm pronouncing her last name Kristen correctly. I didn't catch the pronunciation when, when they introduced her, but Dina Carino, direct producer Matt Mutombo. This film, it's warm, it's moving, it's funny. It's got a bunch of really great people in interviews with, with Dikembe before he died. You know, we lost him a year ago to, to brain cancer September of 24. But they got Dikembe for a bunch of sit downs. They got Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Morning, Allen Iverson, Keem Olajuwon, Masayo Jiri, Jeff Van Gundy, Larry Brown, Adam Silver. Dikembe had just an incredible, incredible life, incredibly impactful life. I don't know that we'll ever see anybody quite like him again. Just in terms of the total impact. Great basketball career, hall of Famer, but the things that he has done in his native Democratic Republic of Congo, where he built hospitals and built schools and has just done so much to try to uplift everyone and just a great dude. I didn't cover him day to day. I only met him a couple of times. But you see these scenes from his playing days, like, you know, joking around with Yao Ming when they were together in Houston and everybody, like, no one says a bad word about the Kim and Mutombo who's ever encountered him. Just a great all around guy. And so as it turns out, Logan, this was an easy call for me this time.

A (83:16)

Wow. A couple notes here. The New York premiere precedes the film Mount Mumbo's theatrical release from November 1st, and it's going to be in select AMC theaters across the United States. And second, the Twinkies are a part of the Hostess brand, which is headquartered in Lenexa, Kansas, according to Wikipedia.

D (83:40)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (83:43)

I'm trying. Damn, brother. Let's not say we did. Damn, bro. I feel like that was a real heavy ruin of the week, so I feel a little nervous giving my ruin of the week, but I'm gonna do it anyway. It the spirit, my spirit animal for, for this season of real ones. Ms. Caribou. Not the two. She put out a. She's been. She's been the soundtrack of my last two months. I've sent all of her content to V. To Cliff. She put out a track, a little snippet of a track that is bonkers last night. She's one of my favorite rappers out of Atlanta. Her and Anisia and two people that Howard Beck has no clue exist and probably will never listen to their music. But. But Caribou, not the two. Is he ready? Is he ready? Cliff, is Beck ready for. For this. Which song said I sent back?

C (84:44)

Splash Bros. Splash Bros. Yeah, Splash Bros. Because he can relate to it. It's Flash Bros. Like, you know, basketball.

A (84:49)

They kind of Flash Bros References in there. Yeah. Nice little tie in.

C (84:52)

Yeah. Yeah, they're like. They say they're like Stephen Clay. So, yeah, you can relate to it.

A (84:56)

They're like Stephen Clay. They're what? They're my favorite duos, but I have gravitated towards Caribou. K Boo Caribou. Not the two. Because I'm Logi Boo. Not the two. And that is my ruin of the week. Yeah, it's great. All right, we gotta go. That's been another edition of Real Ones. Like I said, I am Logie Boo. Nothing too. AKA Logan Murdoch, AKA Low Load of the flow. Flow from the oo. And that is Howard Beck, who needs to get the out of Amy Polar Studio. So that's been another additional Real Ones. Real ones. Mailbag gmail.com real onesmailback gmail.com real onesmailBack gmail.com we are to going going to be answering your mailback questions on Tuesday. It's going to be me and Howard Beck. See you then. Ah, all the shits. Bye. This is 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rghelp.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.comorg chatincenetic or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema. Org or call 1-800-327-50 50 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.