Welcome to Trade Season: Six Big Questions as the Rumor Mill Heats Up. Plus, Wemby Snuffs Out the Thunder. | Group Chat

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show: Welcome to Trade Season – Six Big Questions as the Rumor Mill Heats Up. Plus, Wemby Snuffs Out the Thunder | Group Chat

Date: December 15, 2025
Panelists: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann

Episode Overview

This Group Chat episode marks the unofficial start of NBA trade season (December 15), with the hosts assembling to tackle six major questions about the looming trade market, shifting league dynamics, and player/team futures. The episode also begins with a deep dive into the Spurs’ thrilling win over the Thunder in the NBA Cup semifinals—a game the hosts describe as possibly the game of the year. Throughout, the discussion flows naturally between basketball analysis, trade speculation, league trends, and plenty of the panel’s comedic banter.

---

Main Topics & Key Insights

1. Spurs vs. Thunder: Game of the Year Contender

[04:00–22:00]

• Wemby’s Impact: The show kicks off with a dissection of the Spurs’ semifinal win against the Thunder, with Victor Wembanyama’s performance and aura at the center.

  • J. Kyle Mann: “The Spurs just have a really big horse they can unleash… when [Wemby] came into the game, he affects everything, even to a team as good as the Thunder.” (09:15)
  • Justin Verrier: “This felt like a great cup game and also one with implications that transcend the [NBA] Cup.” (04:43)

• Rivalry/Drama: Discussion includes the brewing rivalry between Wemby and Chet Holmgren, the game’s chippiness, and the psychological edge Wemby seems to wield.

  • Rob Mahoney: “He knows how to push and prod just enough where it’s not annoying, and it does feel deserving of his station, because he is this good and the league is kind of handing itself over to him.” (07:00)

• Coaching & Lineups:

  • The hosts highlight strategic coaching by Ms. Johnson and the Spurs, managing Wemby’s minutes for dramatic effect as well as high-leverage lineups featuring Castle, Harper, Fox, and Wemby together for the first time this season.
  • Justin Verrier: “They don’t even know how to manage these lineups yet… just speaks to how much more there is to explore.” (14:00)

• Thunder’s Lessons: The Thunder’s “immortal tyrant” reputation gets checked:

  • Rob Mahoney: “As a basketball-loving collective we needed this—an ‘if it bleeds, you can kill it’ moment.” (10:34)
  • Discussion about Thunder’s late-game predictability and the limits of role-players like Lu Dort.

• Defensive Chess Match:

  • Spurs’ defense with Wemby on the back line forced the Thunder into “killing clock” and shot-clock violations.
  • Rob Mahoney: “You just make them kill clock. Now they’re doing it and they can’t move Wembanyama from the paint… it takes its toll.” (15:29)

Memorable Moment:

• J. Kyle Mann compares the Spurs’ use of Wemby to deploying an absurdly large horse in an old Far Side cartoon: “Whenever you need something impossible done, just bring out the big horse.” (08:55)

---

2. NBA Cup Final Preview: Spurs vs. Knicks

[19:40–24:00]

• Matchup Possibilities:
  • Speculation about who the Knicks could throw on Wemby—OG Anunoby, Alex Caruso, or even Karl-Anthony Towns.
• Knicks’ Physicality: Group questions if the Knicks’ collective “girth”—as opposed to length—poses new problems for the Spurs.
• Cup Stakes & Rest:
  • Justin Verrier: “Two days rest. What a concept that we can get rest getting into these big games.” (21:26)

---

3. Unofficial Start of Trade Season: Shifting Dynamics

[27:04–36:00+]

Big Question #1: Are teams cooling on chasing stars and sacrificing depth?

• The group dissects new league trends under the restrictive new CBA/apron structure:
  • Rob Mahoney: “Billionaires still like shiny stuff… no apron will fully stop them. But market is shifting.” (29:56)
  • Justin Verrier: “Do we really need to mess up this finely crafted [depth]? Why narrow our window for a big swing?” (31:43)
• Changing Landscape: Young, deep teams (Thunder, Spurs) are models now, while teams that gut depth (last year’s Suns) struggle.
• Short-Term vs. Long-Term:
  • J. Kyle Mann: “You would have to accept that a trade now is just a glimpse at the sun… then you go right back to earth.” (35:03)
• Is “Availability” over “flash” good for the league? The group questions if regular season grind and health being most important is good for the league’s intrigue and the tendency to chase stars.

---

4. Giannis Watch: Where Would He Force a Trade?

[37:43–45:00]

• Realistic Suitors and Fit:
  • J. Kyle Mann: Hawks as a fit (“The Hawks make a lot of sense… if you can get that pick and Trey [Young], could jumpstart your future.”) (40:15)
  • Rob Mahoney: “If I’m Giannis, I think I would want to go to Miami. I want a front office that is proven, can make the follow-up moves…” (40:54)
  • Justin Verrier: Knicks and Rockets discussed, but he’s skeptical about fit—“You’d have to strip-mine the Knicks to get him.” (42:48)
• Heat Interviewed as Ideal Partner:
  • Mahoney details reasons: “Spoelstra can ask something different of Giannis, push him further.” (44:19)

Age, Availability, and Style Risks:

• All note Giannis’ playing style’s potential to age poorly (“It’s a lot of abuse… a lot of getting into the lane and pivoting… how does that age?” – J. Kyle Mann, 46:11)

---

5. Next Most Interesting Potential Trade Targets

[48:28–54:50]

• Anthony Davis:

  • Rob Mahoney: “He can change things for a lot of teams and I think you have to tip your hat to that.” (48:50)
  • Justin Verrier: Lukewarm on a market: “Any team that is going to trade for him is going to sell the [team trading] on this version of him…” (52:07)
  • Celtics, Bulls, Mavs as theoretical fits but all seem structurally or emotionally challenging.

• Other Names: LaMelo Ball, Ja Morant, Zion Williamson:

  • Concerns about health and availability, but all agreed Lamelo might make the biggest leap if healthy.
  • Rob Mahoney: “You put Ja Morant on a run-of-mill team and they start winning regular season games if he is healthy and available.” (50:43)

---

6. The “Misery Business” Segment: Should Sad-Sack Franchises Sell?

[55:10–65:00]

• Utah Jazz: Keep or Sell Lauri Markkanen?
  • Rob Mahoney: “Absolutely consider it… these guys (Lowry/MPJ) have such clear utility to winning teams.” (56:41)
• Brooklyn Nets: Michael Porter Jr. as a target?
  • Justin Verrier: “He would cycle back into what he was alongside Jokic.”
  • MPJ’s shotmaking value is lauded, but injury concerns are major.
  • J. Kyle Mann: “I think they would want Ivey if they were going to do [a Pistons trade].” (60:19)
• Other Sellers Discussed:
  • Sacramento (Sabonis), Charlotte, Memphis (Jaren Jackson Jr. as a possible pivot point)
  • Justin Verrier: “Can we just get a barrel [of assets] if we move on from Jaren now?” (63:58)

---

7. Teams Most in Need of a Trade

[66:23–75:00]

• Detroit Pistons:
  • Justin Verrier: “If I find a deal that keeps me on the same timeline, I’m doing it, because there’s a real opportunity [in the East].” (66:58)
  • Panel debates whether “need” is overstated, but agree the roster could use more shotmaking and versatility.
• Minnesota Timberwolves:
  • J. Kyle Mann: “If they could get a steady ballhandler, that would bolster what they have.”
• Cleveland Cavaliers:
  • Rob Mahoney: “Everything feels bad with the Cavs all the time… they’ve lost so much of the connectivity that made them good last season.” (71:48)
  • Panel speculates on breaking up the Mitchell-Garland-Allen core.

---

8. Buy-Low Candidates: Who Needs a Change of Scenery?

[76:25–84:43]

• Zach LaVine:

  • Rob Mahoney: “I still want to believe… but he gets paid a fuck ton of money.” (77:20)
  • Justin Verrier: “Is Zach LaVine the plus-minus devil?” (78:12)

• Malik Monk:

  • Justin Verrier: “There’s no country for small scoring guards anymore… but I want to see good things for him.” (79:26)
  • Group discusses the limitations of Monk’s profile in the changing league.

• Others: Kobe White, Jalen Suggs, Jalen Duren, Jairus Walker:

  • J. Kyle Mann: “Jairus Walker… there are believers out there who might take a swing.” (82:20)
  • Concerns about fit, patience, and opportunity.

• The Vibes Debate:

  • Justin Verrier: “Do we really want to disrupt the good vibes here?” (68:59) (referring to Pistons’ energy).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• J. Kyle Mann: “I think we’re well past [the point] where people say fuck everybody for minor conveniences.” (02:58)
  (early banter, setting tone for the show)

• Rob Mahoney: “As a basketball-loving collective, we needed this—an ‘if it bleeds, you can kill it’ moment.” (10:34)

• Justin Verrier: “The Spurs just seemed a little more dangerous… maybe that’s the unpredictability, maybe that’s just Wemby meeting the moment.” (17:35)

• J. Kyle Mann: “If teams are being cooled [on big trades], it’s because the constraints are tighter, but billionaires still like shiny things.” (29:54)

• Rob Mahoney: “If you are giving up all handlers, Caris LeVert has quietly been quite good, but do I want to bet on that in May and June?” (68:27)

---

Episode Structure & Timestamps

• [00:00–04:00]: Banter, icebreakers, prop comedy jokes, TSA morality test.
• [04:00–22:00]: Extended Spurs-Thunder Cup game analysis and implications.
• [19:40–24:00]: Brief NBA Cup Final preview (Spurs-Knicks).
• [27:04–36:00+]: Trade season big questions; are teams cooling on stars?
• [37:43–45:00]: Giannis trade hypotheticals; best fits and broader concerns.
• [48:28–54:50]: Other star trade targets (AD, LaMelo, Ja, Zion), challenges of building through the trade market.
• [55:10–65:00]: Which teams should ‘sell?’ Deep-dive on Markkanen, MPJ, Sabonis, Jaren Jackson Jr.
• [66:23–75:00]: Which team needs to make a deal? Pistons, Wolves, Cavs debated.
• [76:25–84:43]: Buy-low segment—players who need a new home, how the league's trends have changed their value.

---

Tone & Style

True to “Group Chat,” the episode is freewheeling, irreverent, and full of both high-level analysis and offbeat humor. Justin, Rob, and Kyle play off each other’s ideas, making room for inside jokes and self-aware asides.

---

For Listeners Who Missed It

You’ll leave this episode with:

• A strong sense of how the league’s team-building meta is shifting toward depth and flexibility, and which teams and stars that most impacts.
• Clear, relatable breakdowns of the most interesting hypothetical trades—particularly for Giannis, AD, and other changing-of-the-guard figures.
• A feel for the major winners, losers, and wild cards as the rumor mill begins to churn, with plenty of historical context and skepticism about short-term “all-in” gambles.
• An appreciation for the game-changing, irresistible drama of Wembanyama and why every NBA fan should be watching his every move.

---

[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Rob Mahoney]

Foreign.

[Justin Varior]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varior, and sitting in front of me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle Mann. We are assembled here in lovely Los Angeles, California.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Should we, like, put our hands together and we can. We could maybe get Victoria to, like, get some after effects, like, sparks go up in the air or I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Or it's the least we could do. And the Victoria can do, like, we need a little Vietnamese to really give us some life, I think is the problem. On a regular basis.

[Justin Varior]

Can we get some actual props? Like, what would you, like, throw pixie dust in the air or, like, pop rocks or something?

[J. Kyle Mann]

It sounds like a nice lane for you. I think you just uncovered a thing that you could start doing when we're together. Why not, Kyle?

[Rob Mahoney]

He's been living in this lane. One thing I've learned about Justin, podcasting with him for now several years, this dude is a prop comedian at heart. All he. He yearns for a prop. If we. If we gave him a mallet and a watermelon on this table, he would be a happy, happy boy.

[J. Kyle Mann]

The carrot top of podcasting. I didn't realize.

[Justin Varior]

Need a beret and, like, a striped shirt, and I can go full Gallagher.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's go. I think you have it in you.

[Justin Varior]

So one of the last times I think we were all assembled here in lovely Los Angeles, we were doing those preseason podcasts. Rob and I were. And what was the thing? It was the New York Times, like, love list or something like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Questions to fall in love.

[Justin Varior]

Okay, I have a test for you guys, which is, can you pass Justin's. He won't murder you if you get this wrong test.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, historically, no.

[Justin Varior]

You ready for this? I'm ready to try.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's true.

[Justin Varior]

So I was at the airport. TSA line was huge, which was odd because TSA is where you're supposed to cut through all the riff raff. But unfortunately, there were two lines you can get into after you got into this one big line. There's a shorter line and. But it stopped you from getting to the longer line. Right. So two lines you're going through like this. You can either go to the short line here. Yeah. Or there's a longer line here, but you block people here from getting to the longer line. You get that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I do not get that.

[J. Kyle Mann]

So this is like a TSA logistics issue is what you're describing.

[Justin Varior]

Yes. So basically, you could take a right, but you're blocking the people behind you, or you can go straight, but it's a longer path to get to where you're going.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Justin Varior]

You get it now.

[Rob Mahoney]

So the test is, which one are we supposed to take?

[Justin Varior]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

You obviously believe that you should take the longer path and suffer, but not inconvenience. Inconvenience the people behind you.

[Justin Varior]

Kyle?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I don't know. I was gonna say this seems like a candid camera morality test kind of thing that people. You were secretly being watched or something to see what kind of person you were. I don't know. Maybe I don't know you that well, Justin. I kind of felt like you would have just picked the one that served you and just fuck everybody else. That's kind of what I was. I was thinking we need to suff.

[Justin Varior]

In order for the good of everyone.

[J. Kyle Mann]

You know him better than me.

[Justin Varior]

There's. We're trying to build a society here, people. Can we just like say fuck everybody for minor conveniences?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I think we're well past that.

[Justin Varior]

Jesse, what do you.

[Rob Mahoney]

Doesn't even take the inconvenience at this point. It's more of a reason to do it. I'm with you. I also know the only thing you want more than to be a prop comedian is like 40 days of suffering in the desert. Like you just have this in you.

[Justin Varior]

Where maybe 20.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Justin Varior]

Just a little bit. Enough suffering that I have some good stories afterwards.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would love that.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Okay.

[Justin Varior]

The Ringer NBA show is presented by FanDuel. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live in your way so you could build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get started. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit CCPG. Do chat in Connecticut. Well, today we're not suffering because we're doing one of our favorite dates on the NBA calendar. We're going to talk about some trades or what could happen during trade deadline. December 15th is the annual opening, unofficial opening of trade season. We're going to talk through six questions I have on the docket in order to get us primed for that. But first and foremost, we have to talk about last night's action on Saturday. We figured Spurs, Thunder in Vegas, the semifinal matchup of the west for the cup, would be a bit of a slobber knocker. As long as Wemby played. Uh, he did indeed played. He didn't play a full allotment of minutes and yet it was still probably the game of the year thus far.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh yeah. And the best game in cup history easily in terms of.

[J. Kyle Mann]

You think so? I don't. I guess maybe I haven't respected the cup enough to. To know extensively. Um, but yeah, I mean that was. It was a heck of a game. I can't. But I can't think of another we.

[Justin Varior]

Compare with it maybe when they were surprising in the Cup a couple years ago.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the difference is this felt like a great cup game and also one with actual implic that transcend the Emirates NBA Cup.

[Justin Varior]

Right. And this is where I think the stage and the cup atmosphere definitely built this up into something more than it was going to be because if this was just a regular season game, it would still be a good game. But I. It felt like those guys were playing to the stage. Wemby in particular seems like he just has some understanding of the moment in some of the best not only players, but guys who like, understand their role within the fabric of like the NBA history and narrative and just seemed like he played into it. He was given like some wild quotes going into the game about Jokic and all this other stuff. And when he was going through the entire game, he was really giving it back to the Thunder. I think they gave it back to him as a result. And so this had practically everything you would want from a game at the.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Heart of these two teams, which, you know, we're. We're going to. Not to tease it, but we have a lot more to discuss about these two teams and their. Their futures just competing against each other. But I think at the heart of these two teams is a rivalry that goes back a long time. I mean, you know, we saw that. I. And to speak, what you're saying is there is the chippiness, there is the Wimby couldn't really tell if he was being totally serious when Case and Wallace tried to swipe at him in the second half. And he did the. He flexed his bones. And I was like, okay, Case. And Case and was like in the foreground smiling like you believe this guy. But at the. At the heart of this though is that he and Chad have had a long running thing, which is really funny because Chet, you know, exerted his will as the lanky guy. How impossibly he's doing these skilled things. Impossibly he's talent these Balanced and skilled. And Wimby is just that and just like expanded. And that goes Back to like U19 and FIBA stuff when the USA was playing France in the past. So all that to say. He seems to have like a real nasty chippiness towards the Thunder, like in particular, Chet. But I don't know. I mean, he's like barking at Caruso. There was. There was a lot of good stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

Anyone who dared try to guard him, like. And I think this is one of the great things, as you were talking about Wemby Justin, where he does have a sense of the moment, he does have a sense of his place in basketball history. He also is one of the rare international stars that's willing to play the game behind the game, you know, even after a game like this. Take a perfectly plausibly deniable shot about playing, you know, the spurs playing ethical hoops, it's like, yes, they do. But also, we're all now going to look at the Thunder and have that conversation as a result. Like, he knows how to push and prod just enough where it's not annoying. And it does feel deserving of his station because he is this good and the league is kind of handing itself over to him in a lot of ways.

[Justin Varior]

Would you consider Party in the USA to be an ethical song to celebrate?

[Rob Mahoney]

What would be unethical about it?

[Justin Varior]

Oh, I'm just wondering, like, because they.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I like that song.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

Played it in the spurs locker room after they won.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's the move.

[Justin Varior]

Unethical would probably be, I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like poison, you know, not an unethical bone in Miley's body.

[Justin Varior]

What if they were playing cherry pie afterward?

[Rob Mahoney]

A bunch of 20 year olds rocking to cherry pie. That would be a problem.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I wonder if they even heard that song. No, my wife gets really, really disgusted with me because I genuinely like Party in the usa. But there was a funny thing that happened though, in the first. Well, the first half was. Was interesting because it was typically. The script of this was like typical thunder. They're coming out, they're punching. They in particular were having a lot of fun with the idea of Luke Cornett retreating and pick and roll or, you know, picking on Dear and Fox with like, they were setting these really high ball screens and the moment that Cornet was backpedaling, it was just thunder chum. Basically. It was like throwing meat into a shark piranha tank, whatever you want to call it. But it made me think of. I know I'm on like a run of like thinking of reminding me of random things from my past. But it reminded me of this. Guys read the Far side when you were growing up. Yeah, I had all the Far side books. I think my parents were intentionally. Were trying to make me a bizarre person. I don't know why. I mean like way, way, way too young had them. But there was this one I remember that was set in the old west. And you see these cowboy sheriff. This cowboy sheriff coming out of the front door. And in the background you see these people like screaming because they've been robbed. And the, and the sheriff says, well, the bank's been hit again. He said, no need to worry, we'll just take the big horse. And you see in the side of the frame there, there's a row of like four normal sized horses. And then there's this one horse that's so big, it's just like ridiculously big. And that's what I was thinking about when I was watching the spurs game where I was like, the spurs just have a really big horse that they can just. And when he came into the game, you know, he affects. He was noping there several possessions in a row where it was like Casey Wallace, short roll, looks up. No, I'm not going to do that. Throws it to the corner. Jalen, there's a good close. Jalen Williams drives to the basket, looks up. Not going to do that. Ugly Shea ISO at the top of the key and he bricks it. It's just amazing what Wimby does, even to a team as good as the Thunder.

[Rob Mahoney]

There was a possession in the fourth quarter, he was trying to get a seal on kind of like the mid post. And Darren Fox threw like a pretty ill advised long post entry pass. J Dub sees it coming, fronts it. Any other player, J Dub picks off and runs. Wemby just like reaches over the top, pokes it back to himself, draws a foul. It's like a totally different kind of big boy than what we usually see, right? But you saw throughout this game all the ways in which a player like Victor Wembanyama makes the Thunder overreact, something they almost never do to anyone else. There's really just like, I would say two guys in the whole league who make them operate this way. And it's Wemby and Jokic, but they have to put three bodies on him when a, when a ball is available off the glass, they have to put multiple bodies on him. When he's trying to even just like turn around in the post or at the elbow. He really stresses them out in A unique way that honestly, given where we are in the season, how great, great the Thunder have been. I think we all needed this. I think we needed as a. As a basketball loving collective a, like if it bleeds, you can kill it moment.

[Justin Varior]

Yes. Especially considering the game against the Suns to set up this game where they just wipe the floor with them and the Thunder. Probably no team other than them since the warriors, like prime KD warriors has a team just whipped ass.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

So decisively. And I thought this was going to be another one of those games because of the way that it started. And it's seemed like it had that oh no moment. Right. Like we're not going to get the good game that we thought we would. And part of that was because of the minute distribution that they set Wemby up on to the point where like they basically had him as the Jaws shark just waiting in the wings until we got there. He didn't play in the first quarter and all of a sudden he plays in the second quarter and things just instantly flipped.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Incredible how it flipped.

[Justin Varior]

It's just like it almost felt like Ms. Johnson had like an understanding of like drama and how to build the tension in this whole story because as soon as it happened, the game was completely different. And then toward the end it set up where he was playing as many minutes as he could and they were able to turn it around and win the game. And so it was kind of. I almost wish that like they do more of that. Even though that would take Wemby off the court more.

[Rob Mahoney]

It was amazing. It was just an amazing game to watch for all the implications for the actual basketball for, as you're saying, like the tension of those moments. And if anything, if you want to put like a particular stretch where the spurs won this thing. They were great in crunch time. They were great basically every minute Wemby was on the floor. The third quarter stretch without Wemby is kind of where they pulled it together. And winning those minutes after how transformative he had been, I just came away incredibly impressed. Like anytime Fox and Castle have been on the floor together, I really love the combination. Anytime they're on the floor together with Wemby, it looks really special. It looks like it could really tap into something unique and lasting and something that could expand into everything that the spurs want to be.

[J. Kyle Mann]

You mentioned them throwing the entry passes and Fox throwing the entry passes. I will say they were freaking out. He converted and tips. Wimby's hand has the best hands of anyone his. Well, granted, no one is his size, but just. We've never seen anything like he just has incredible soft touch and flipping it to himself. But they're going to get him killed if they don't start throwing. Like there was a stretch where he was falling down, like Wimby was, was duct taping it together somehow and like making things happen. But they're just going to have to figure something out that's a little less chaotic because he was falling down. And I was just like, like worried about him genuinely. But we were talking about the lineup, the lineup too, that I thought was really interesting was. And I wanted to, I wanted to speak to this about something. I think that a lot has been said about Dylan Harper. Obviously he deserves it. He's highly lauded. Came in number two, pick whatever it, you know, gets a lot of credit for that. But there was a, there was a sequence in the first half where we were talking about where they were, you know, the Thunder were impenetrable and, and Harper came in and got in the paint in a way that no one else on the spurs could. And it, it. He really looked unbothered. And to me, I flagged that where I was like, that's, that is really interesting because then in the, I don't remember it. Was it the third quarter where they went with the Fox, Harper, Basel, Barnes, Wimby. So that lineup seemed to genuinely give the Thunder genuine problems, like in a way that could be a vision of the future.

[Justin Varior]

So this is the first game the entire year with Fox, Castle, Harper and Wemby all on the floor together. Which is wild to think because it also had like a weird cascading effect where each guy kind of had their moment. Yeah, like Harper gave way to Castle, gave way to Fox. And then Wemby comes in and just takes over the idea that like, they don't even know how to manage these minutes and these lineups and everything just speaks to like how much more there is out there. In order to explore that territory, I.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just getting to a point with Stefan Castle where he's one of my favorite players to watch. He's great in the league.

[Justin Varior]

I didn't think he had this leap in him considering last year he popped. But you would assume that the nuance that he didn't have to his game last year would come to bear here when they're trying to manage the lineups.

[Rob Mahoney]

A little bit more. And yet in these moments, again, for a guy who we were all wondering, is he going to be more of an on ball presence? Is he going to Be more of like a weird, funky combo, off guard, cutting and slicing and finding other ways to score. I just feel really comfortable when he has the ball in his hands. Watching him, he is kind of both. And I think it's the verve, it's the confidence, it's the buzz of energy that he plays with. And he's one of these guys who's not too cool for anything. He will do all the dirty work, and in doing so, it makes him, ironically, pretty fucking cool to watch. He carries something with him that not a lot of young guards have.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He's an extremely thundery player. Not on the Thunder. And I think we were talking about how the Heat were getting really stifled in the fact that the Magic had a perfect. I guess this was last week or whatever episode it was, but how they had a perfect answer for them at all the different entry points of their offense. I think the spurs have some personnel, some unique personnel advantages that other teams don't have. And I think we saw it throughout that game. Now Shay does what Shay does and he gets to his spots. But Castle, Vassell, a couple of those guys really were, you know, and we've talked about. When you have Wimby back there, you can really attack some of those Thunder creators with reckless abandon because you know that. That he's back there.

[Rob Mahoney]

They went, like, out of their way to do that. You could see all the time the Thunder were trying to pull Wimby into pick and rolls, and the spurs were just kind of scramming him out, keeping him in the corner. Stand there, guard Casen Wallace for a minute. Lou Dort for a minute. Whatever you have to do to stay on the back line. And I think it's a really smart way to guard the Thunder for a variety of reasons, if you can get away with it, in part because you just make them kill time. You just make them kill clock. Like they're trying to find their matchup, that they can work to get into the lane to spray out for threes, to do the normal Thunder offensive stuff. But now they're doing it and they can't move Victor Wembanyama from the paint. Basically. I think it's just going to take its toll over the course of a game like this, and the Thunder are going to have all kinds of answers in all sorts of other ways. Not worried about okc. And frankly, I think, you know, this was a good game for all of us. I think it's a good game for them, too. Like being the immortal tyrant ruling the league and having to Sweat a little bit now and again is ultimately a healthy thing. But I was really impressed with the spurs game planning. In addition to the personnel stuff, they.

[Justin Varior]

Had to bleed their own blood finally. But it was nice to. Yes. Cause I do think you need some of these setbacks in order to recalibrate. Even D D Wade was saying that, and he was part of the Heat team that went on that magical run with the Heat, not only just for the titles, but for the, for the win streak. And so he would know. I just felt like the Thunder were pretty predictable late in the game. And like, as Rob is saying, like, we're nitpicking here. The Thunder are amazing and they could have won that game easily if a couple of wimy jumpers didn't go in, if he didn't catch the shot that he had to recatch in order to hit that jumper didn't go in. But it's just like, you know, it's going to Shay and most of the time he will do work. But like, when loot door is wide open and can't hit a three, this is the worry that you have in the back of your mind as they're rattling off wins. Are teams going to play them like that? And are those guys those. Those kind of iffy shooters? Are they not going to be there when they need them to?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, they're definitely going to play them like that.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, yeah.

[J. Kyle Mann]

You don't have any choice. I mean, it's just like what level of survival are you willing to accept?

[Rob Mahoney]

What's funny about a game like this though is like Jdub and Shay were pretty damn good down the stretch. It's not like the offense felt the.

[Justin Varior]

Last, like couple possessions.

[Rob Mahoney]

The last couple possessions, it got rocky. But even then, like, if you're creating a wide open three for Lou Dort, it's not a bad outcome of a possession.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He's made big shots in the past.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. But he's also missed a lot of big shots in the past. And so I, I don't know. The. The spurs just seemed a little bit more dangerous. Perhaps that's the unpredictability factor. Perhaps that's just Wemby was meeting a moment, but, you know, when Shea had to like double step back into a, like a full fade away 3 is just like, all right, that's tough. He didn't want to go out that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Way, but he hits tough shit all.

[Justin Varior]

The time, I guess.

[J. Kyle Mann]

So they can put him in position that they. That was one game. You know, I, I'd be curious to See, like in a, in a sequence of games, or dare I say a series of games that. To see what would happen and how they would respond, but also, you know, not to, you know, hammer this and just act like the Thunder were just exposed. And like, you know, it's like they had some pretty amazing moments, dude, defensively down the stretch. I mean, granted, there's. They're a hack and swiping kind of team. And I mean, Caruso, despite. Despite, you know, Wimby hitting that crazy fade away on him, I mean, Caruso had one amazing. His hands and accuracy with his hands are crazy. That block that Doord had on, how did I rewound that? I don't know, 10 times just to watch because he timed that perfectly. How would you. It was almost like watching like a physics problem. I was like, how did he calculate in his brain when he would be able to get to that ball? You know what I'm talking?

[Rob Mahoney]

Left this city at 2:00'. Clock. Like, it really is that kind of saw the arcs.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I was like, but that's what you.

[Rob Mahoney]

Have to do against the spurs now. Like, you do really have to work out some pretty advanced physics just to contest what should be like normal basic stuff.

[Justin Varior]

I wasn't surprised that Caruso was the one getting the assignment against Wemby too. Like, he's at another huge moment and he looks like one of the best players on the floor. Even though his offensive game is just what it is. He's just such an absolute baller and he's just built for high level competitive basketball.

[Rob Mahoney]

All true. And yet him bricking that fast break layup that could have essentially like, given the Thunder the lead if not sealed the game.

[Justin Varior]

That's what he does too, you know.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just saying, like, it's. It's all a give and take, you know?

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. Yes. This would be the concern with the Thunder, but awesome game in Vegas. Better than the first game, which ultimately I think the, the injuries just stacked up for the Magic. And so we'll get spurs vs Knicks in the final. Yeah, pretty good final, all things considered.

[Rob Mahoney]

So do you just start with OG Anunoby on Wemby? I love interesting Alex Caruso. Or do you like, do you give any time to Cat guarding Victor, Web and Yama?

[Justin Varior]

I don't.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I don't think so. I don't know. I like. Wimy can go buy him. Number one, he can shoot over him. Number two, he can pass over him. I just. It's going to be different than the way that they attack. What What I was noticing is when Wimby. Any kind of moment where Wimby is dancing, any kind of prolonged extended dancing with the ball is when the Thunder would bring the help.

[Rob Mahoney]

If he is the best dancer for his size in NBA history, I'm just.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I'm just saying whenever he's smart about, like, not crossing that line of, like, dancing for, like, two or three seconds, like, if he makes a simple move, you know, I'll be curious to see how the Knicks guard him. He's had an interesting history with the Knicks, too. You remember they bullied the shit out of him his rookie year, and he came back and punished him. I would assume it's going to be a lot like the. Like, if he gets in the corner, they're going to bring the McHale bridges, OG kind of thing. But getting up under him and kind of making him bend his back, I think is the most. The most effective way to neutralize him at this point.

[Justin Varior]

Right? Yes. I think it definitely want to jostle his dribble and, like, anytime he puts it on the deck to really crowd him. OG might be one of the best defenders to throw at him, considering his size and strength and, like, his length at that regard. Like, I almost wonder how much they can get away with just putting him on there and then forcing Wemby just to beat him. But it'll be interesting. I hope that Wemby can play a couple more minutes, maybe in the first quarter even.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

So we'll see.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Ending up at 21 minutes. We clearly would love to see more, but this is the question of, like, how much does a Cup Final really, really matter? You know, the spurs are playing for so much more than this, and at the same time, clearly they're invested in the outcome of challenging the Thunder, and I, I presume, challenging the Knicks, too.

[Justin Varior]

Well, how about this? Two days rest. What a concept that we can get. Rest. Getting into these big games. It is. It seemed like it mattered. I don't know if it was just like, the stage or the lights or perhaps they could just hear Stan Van Gundy all lubricated on the broadcast because he was definitely feeling it, man.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Let me tell you, dude, he had me rolling. It was. No, it was the game before where he was talking about Dylan Harper had not packed enough clothes on a road trip. And then he started talking about clean underwear. And I was like, he. I wish he could be my grandpa. I don't. I don't know. The ages work there, really. I don't want to accuse Stan of being Too old there.

[Justin Varior]

But he had the alien comment. And then you could tell everyone, like, the collars got a little too tight and they're like, oh, okay, so how about that free throw? But yeah, he was really going for it. I thought that, I thought it was great. Everything was great. And so if we get something similar to that. Yeah, I think the cup has a little bit more juice than it had yesterday, definitely.

[Rob Mahoney]

So we're, we're on that path. We just, we just need another at least tight game. You know, it's not going to necessarily replicate Thunder spurs, but we can, we can get pretty close. I think with the Knicks.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I think it could be a pretty good game. I think more, more. Even more interesting, I think is the length that the spurs have to throw at Bronson. Could be, could be pretty interesting guys that could just go balls to the wall and try to irritate him because yeah, the Magic just didn't. Well, honestly, I mean, who do you think even really killed the. The Magic for the Knicks? I mean, it seemed like OG did, did a ton of damage. Brunson. They weren't riding Brunson super hard. He was kind of picking his spots.

[Rob Mahoney]

But you're Jalen Brunson. You pick your spots and you end up with 40. Like that's just kind of the way it goes for him. Sometimes.

[J. Kyle Mann]

It didn't even feel like it, but.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, yeah, I, I also wonder if Wemby will have a little bit of extra juice because, you know, he, he senses these moments as we were saying, but like the Knicks being New York and I don't know, it just, it just feels like he will be up for that task. I do wonder if the collective girth of, of the Knicks is a new sort of challenge because it's a lot of big boys out there as opposed to the, a lot of the spurs. There's like the long boys, but this is now the, the chunky boys or. I don't know how we're ish.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, they still got the McHale types, you know, they still have some wiry fellas in there.

[Justin Varior]

Okay.

[J. Kyle Mann]

It's really og, right? I mean, everybody else is wired well.

[Justin Varior]

Heart'S pretty if Cats are for in those big lineups. Mitchell Robinson's a big old country boy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

Drives his trucks, L.A. dude.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Now I'm getting my wires crossed on which one is the, you know, the small market middle America team. You know, all of a sudden you're saying that the truck driving New York Knicks, the, the workman New York Knicks, you know, They're. They're really leaning into the bid with the Tims and everything.

[Justin Varior]

Like, you have this. You were on this kick that saying that San Antonio was a big market.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a gigantic city.

[Justin Varior]

I just don't. Yeah, but not in terms of market size. I still don't get it.

[Rob Mahoney]

In terms of market size. It's one of the biggest cities in America.

[Justin Varior]

No, you're saying literal, like geography, like.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, I'm talking population. Yeah, population. One of the biggest cities in America.

[Justin Varior]

But it's one of the smaller NBA markets in the league.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's not true.

[Justin Varior]

It's always been true.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's just not true. Like, you have it in your head that this is true, but it's just not.

[Justin Varior]

Well, I must have missed all those stories back in the Duncan, Tony Parker era. The small market success.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Is it the cosmopolitan factor that's there? Because can you have a lot of people but not be cosmopolitan? And thus you're seen as. I'm you.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I'm saying I think it's plenty cosmopolitan.

[Justin Varior]

I think it's. Well, we used to go by media markets. I don't know what that means anymore. Also, San Antonio has branched off into Austin to the point where it seems like Austin has adopted them almost as their own. They've flirted with Austin and going there. So there's like. There's a lot of complications. But historically, San Antonio was one of the smallest.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, look, for the record, the conversation we were having was about Houston. That was the city we were talking about, not San Antonio. San Antonio's a city of a certain size. Houston is a massive fucking city.

[Justin Varior]

I don't know where we are anymore. Why don't we take a break and when we come back, we'll talk trade Deadline. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. This NBA season on FanDuel, it's all about the boost. Because game days mean your chance to boost your bet and make every play pay off. That's right. All customers get a 25% SGP and parlay profit boost. So we're looking at the NBA Cup Final because that's where we are. Spurs, Knicks. Knicks are favored minus two and a half. But I gotta be honest, I kind of like the Knicks in this one. I can't really pinpoint why, if only because I just think that the Knicks just have the combination of veteran leadership and also they've been there before sort of quality to them. The spurs maybe don't have Wemby still on this minute restriction.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know.

[Justin Varior]

I just feel the Knicks have this one under the bright lights in Vegas. So let's gamble a little bit and go with the Knicks -2 and a half and the games never stop. And with FanDuel you've got more ways to make every win even bigger. So lock in your bets, boost your odds and make every night count with FanDuel. Official sports betting partner of the NBA must be 21 + in present in select states or 18 + in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See [e-mail] gambling problem. Call 1-88-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.

[J. Kyle Mann]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move fast and Amazon prime keeps you in control with fast and free delivery. We've all been there. Family plans are fluid. Somebody's not coming. Suddenly they are coming and you're excited about it. You want to get them a gift, so you hop on Amazon prime, line that up with their interests. And it's easy to do because Amazon has everything. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays and especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. Need that last minute gift or holiday essential? It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now.

[Justin Varior]

All right, so December 15, important date on the NBA calendar because that is when most of the players over the off season can be now packaged into trades. I believe like something 80, 90% of players can be traded at this point. There's still a January 15th date for some other players got extended and whatnot. But by and large this is seen on the calendar as unofficial start of trade season. That's going to be on Monday. Recording this on the 14th.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

So we've been doing these pods for a while now. I was actually going through the Google Doc archives and the first one I found was from 2021 and the pod started with in air quotes a brief Covid update. And I was like that's dark.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you have a brief Covid update for us today?

[Justin Varior]

I don't know what's going on with COVID these days. Do you have anything from.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think you should stay on top of it.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, it was like Alvin Gentry, 67, just contracted Covid.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh yeah. Well especially that that year in particular If I'm remembering correctly, was like, the hardship exception, like, so many guys were sick. They were literally pulling dudes off the street to play.

[J. Kyle Mann]

That was one of the funnier things they ever witnessed in person is that Sharks and I actually went to the G League showcase in December, or was it January? But it was right there, but that was when. Do you remember that time when it, like, it was the huge spiraling Covid outbreak. And while we're there watching these dudes audition to be in the NBA, they're in real time getting pulled up to. Guys are, like, pulling them out off the. Off the court, like, hey, we need you to go. And they're like, you know, flying to play. That was a bizarre time. Like, just absolutely bizarre.

[Justin Varior]

That was a good time to have no social life, because then you might get an NBA 10 day as a result of it. Yeah, I miss my time.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Mario Chalmers, Scotty Hopson, getting out there, trying to get deals. Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

So, yeah, so we've been doing this for a couple years now. I love this time of year. Just seems like there's more to unearth, and, like, let's just. Let's just mess things up, you know, like, we know where the league is right now. I feel like everyone has a good sense of each other and their team and the roster and what they need and what they don't need. Now it's just like, all right, let's. Let's throw some wrenches into the mix. We got Dennis Schroeder, I think, last year, going to the warriors before he ultimately made his way, in a weird way, to the Pistons.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Made an impact for the Pistons, too. I mean, in the playoffs.

[Rob Mahoney]

Turned out to be a really important player for them.

[Justin Varior]

And now he's on the Kings.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Justin Varior]

Don't know what's going on there, but.

[Rob Mahoney]

Life comes at you fast.

[Justin Varior]

We might talk about them in a little bit. So I have six questions down. Yeah, we will. I want to start big picture because there is a lot of talk. ESPN has a story up from the other day. I think it was Bon Temps and Windhorse. But also we've been talking about this on and off in a different way, about whether or not teams are going to chase stars as ardently as they had in the past, considering how important depth is, considering all the repercussions of all the aprons and whatnot. Rob, do you buy that idea that teams are not going to go after stars as hard or maybe at all, because they need to manage those things a little bit more meticulously?

[Rob Mahoney]

I can't quite get there. And I think some of it is like, billionaires still like shiny stuff. And if a really great player comes available, there's going to be a part of them that wants to just reach out and grab it. And so long as that is true, no apron will fully be able to stop them. I think there are restrictions. I think. I think the market is shifting. I do think there's maybe like a little more aversion to the Kevin Durant style. We're going to give up all of these picks to make this happen. And there's a little more aversion to the. We are going to gut our team to make this possible. Like, that hasn't. Honestly hasn't happened in a while, period. It's almost like the Carmelo to the Knicks model of team building. Like, we're just going to trade all of these guys to the point that we're not even going to be as competitive on the other side in some, like, roster building senses. It's just, that's what's tough is like, you can't trade for Giannis and then get it together. You got to somehow have it together while trading for Giannis without giving up too much of your team in the process. You can see how the list of suitors can narrow pretty quickly with all that going on.

[Justin Varior]

On.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I mean, in your question here, you were saying, talking, asking the. Just the simple question if teams are cooling. And I was like, not of their own volition, have been cooled by some of these things and, and the handcuffs and the constraints and the, the Houdini straight jacket, whatever you want to call it, has gotten a lot tighter. But I think Rob's right. I mean, I, I think the question is just who really is in the position to get their shit together quickly enough to make it worth it. And I, when you look across the league, I'm just like, there's so many teams that I, I think to myself, like, it's just not. I feel conservative for a lot of these teams. The only, the only. Is there one that's like, I know we'll get into this. Is there a team that is not in the position. You know, we joked about the, the Bulls a couple years ago, where the, the Bruce Willis in Sixth Sense that, like, are there teams out there that don't realize they're dead and they actually are dead, that I think those culprits are the ones that are more likely to make moves than the teams that are close because it's so risky?

[Justin Varior]

That's a good Point I do think if you look at the top of the league is a lot of these teams that are taking over after the big Goliaths with the big Threes who got rid of all their picks have kind of faded into the sunset. Now we're talking about the Thunder and the spurs. Like do we really need to mess up this finely crafted. We have stars and also guys who could be stars and depth in order to take a risk on like a big swing that might narrow our window versus we could have the next 10 years and maybe we won't win as many titles and maybe as win as many in a row, but we're going to have a Runway here to do some damage. And so you're right. I think it's, it's both the apron stuff, but it's also like teams being like do we need this?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean the, some of the best teams in the league being young and deep. You're right, is is falling into this conversation because in theory a team like the Pistons would be maybe at the forefront of some like the should they trade for a superstar to pair with Cade to build like an incredible contender. I think the Pistons too good for a lot of that, you know. And so like some of these teams being so far ahead of the curve in a way that honestly feels sustainable. Like what the Thunder are doing is obviously sustainable. Where the spurs are, I think in many ways in a team building sense is quite sustainable. So yeah. Why would you rock that particular boat if you can have your cake and eat it too with Castle and Harper and Fox? I don't know. Like you're having it, you're eating it too. I don't know what the third thing is in this equation.

[Justin Varior]

You're having a lot of cake.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a lot. You know, the dessert tray is full. Like why upset it?

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. In the ESPN article they pointed to both the Suns and the Clippers and their starts as reasons why teams wouldn't do this. The Suns, because they get rid of KD and they stop chasing this idea of being star studded and all of a sudden they're playing with a spunk and energy that has got them into at the very least a play in mix. The Clippers on the other hand, have all these older stars. They have struggled as we all know. But I would point to the sons of last year or two years ago as an example of why there are limits to this idea. Because there's always going to be one team or two teams that want to zag against conventional wisdom and see like, oh, well, if everyone is like going away from stars, we can get a lower price on this guy. Let's just go off and do that. It's going to be tougher because the one thing the spurs on Earth, or excuse me, the Suns on earth, was the fact that the second apron is like, as terrifying as you think it is. But I still think there's going to be someone or someone's out there that say, like, actually, star power wins in this league. Fuck your death. We only have to get through half of a season. Let's just push this in now and see what happens.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think there's some truth to that. My question is, are teams still going to be willing to trade like the Suns did for a guy and not the perfect guy? Right. It's not like we have a star big and we want to get the star guard to pair with him, or we. We have a pretty complete team. We see this wing out there who would really bring it all together that was just like, we have a really good scoring jump, shooting ball handler and another decent scoring shoot, jump shooting ball handler, and we want to bring in another one just because can.

[Justin Varior]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's very different than, I think, what some of the, like, for example, the Giannis propositions will be.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, Some of these teams, it seems like that would be most likely if, if you're trying to like, profile like an FBI agent, like, profile someone who would commit this type of crime, which it usually. Howard wrote a really nice article about how it usually turns out to be a flaccid, you know, fart sound doesn't go anywhere kind of thing. Because, number one, a lot of the times the guys that you trade for, you know, you go ahead and you punch your future and you just have these. It can come down to as simple as just human frailty. Like, you know, that net situation should have worked. You know, worked. I think history always tends to forget that they were just kicking the ever living shit out of the Bucks in the beginning half of that series and then, you know, hard and hamstring, Kyrie, ankle, boom. We're on the trajectory, we're on the path of that being over completely. But you think about the teams that have these finite depleting resources of legacy players. I think Durant is somebody who profiles. Is that where they get this great deal on Durant? They have this window where maybe they want to go for it. They have some wiggle room with some assets to go do it. The Warriors, I think, were another example of, like, we have these proven guys that are a system themselves. We have the wiggle room and the culture and the leverage to go get a butler. I think of teams like that, but I'm like, is it the Lakers? Is it, you know, the Timberwolves are kind of close because they have something that works with their defense. I just don't know. Those are the teams that seem to make the most sense to me for like, they're okay with the idea of like, this is just going to be a short term gratification, whatever it is we get. Because the top, as we saw, are these teams that are super young. And that long term is just insurmountable. I think you'd have to be thinking maybe we'll get a glimpse at the sun if we vault ourselves high enough. But we are going right back down to the earth if we do.

[Justin Varior]

And I wonder about the bigger, broader implications if we're saying that nobody's going to go and do this as well just because, well, one, like, does it cool just chatter about the league because we've kind of gotten like full circle and then like, oh, we don't want trade rumors to dominate the league because we want people to plug in. But then like, nobody was talking about the league for a while and we're like, well, we want that back. We need to, we need to get guys into it so they then go watch the games. And I don't know where we're falling on that now. But I think the other thing is, like, if we're saying that availability is the best ability, like, is that good for the league if we're selling that, like, just trudging through a regular season matters so much that you won't go and get rid of your precious depth to trade for Giannis or anybody really. Is it good for the league that, like, that's not going to happen, that we need that the regular season has become just a slaughterhouse and to get the ready two games means you're not going to go and get the biggest, most interesting team.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's a fair question. I also don't know how you could look at just the sheer frequency of calf injuries going on and be like, yeah, I want to, I want a shallower team. I want to. I want a super team, three star construction. And I feel like, great about it. Like, it's just everything feels so precarious in terms of just getting through the 82. You're right. It feels like a slaughterhouse. That is what that, that's where the marketplace is right now, right? That is like the, the, the meta game within the league is like how do you build the roster that's deep enough to compete in that very specific way? And then when it matters, you're eight and nine deep enough to really blow teams out or at least push them in the playoffs.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

All right, we're talking about Giannis, so why don't we go to our second question here, which is which realistic suitor if you were Giannis, would you be trying to force your way to Giannis? It seems he's out for a little while. I imagine the Bucks will probably keep losing games as a result of that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yet another calf injury.

[Justin Varior]

We don't really know where his mind is because obviously the reports about the Knicks stuff over the summer seems to have been just re emphasized based off of the more recent reporting there. But now it's just like it seems like he's going to go but we don't know if it's going to be in the middle of the season or whatnot. But if we're envisioning a world Kyle in which he does for hit the button, I want to be out by the trade deadline. Is there one team you're like, oh, that's the team.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I don't know that. I don't know that there's a team that you know when you're watching the spurs originally are the first place that your mind goes. If you're, if you're thinking in terms of, you know. There had been chatter about the spurs thinking of Wimby as maybe we don't think about this as like a 15 year thing or I, I'd heard some reporting. Is that even true? I mean do you all that was that intel rock solid.

[Justin Varior]

Doesn't want to go to the.

[J. Kyle Mann]

No, no. That, that the spurs have kind of had a mindset of like maybe this isn't like a 15 year thing we're doing. Maybe it is a little more condensed.

[Rob Mahoney]

Or well, literally what is a 15 year thing anymore.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, that's true too.

[Rob Mahoney]

What can we afford to think that long about in any respect of life?

[Justin Varior]

I think a player of that caliber has not yet forced his way past a first or tried to get out before the second contract hits. So at the very least they have that.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Oh, I just mean health wise. Like they're like maybe this thing is. Is finicky. But I know you watch, you watch them and you're just like, I don't, I don't know that they need to do that. I, I would rather keep my depth if I were them. The One that kind of makes sense for me is if he is going to be working in conjunction with the Bucks about getting something back, the Knicks are a horrible candidate for that. I've said that on this show over and over again. I don't know why the Bucks would do that to themselves. The Hawks make a lot of sense, man. I mean, if they could, you could jump start. You'd have to kind of figure out how that would work. The. The, like Jalen Giannis. Is Porzingis going to be in the deal? I wouldn't go there, but, I mean, you could really line up something here. If you're saying, okay, we get Trey, we get Dyson Daniels, and then just trying to make the money work. And then the thing, the most attractive asset, I think, in the entire landscape is in a really loaded draft, the 2026 draft. That Pelicans pick, man, I mean, if you can get a hold of that, you could jump start. You get Trey, you're going to get him on. I mean, consider it. You're not going to have to. His market hasn't gone to the moon. Like, it's cooled. So if you could get that pick and get a swipe at somebody that could reset your whole franchise, I think that could make both worlds happy. And I think the Hawks would be pretty tough. I really do.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the Hawks possibility makes the most sense for all the reasons you just described. In terms of the return for the Bucks, I would love to see it just in terms of how Giannis would fit in with that team, but if I'm Giannis, I think I would want to go to Miami. Like, I think. I think that would be the move. And some of it is just. It hasn't always ended well there for the superstars who have come through the heat. But when you're thinking about your career as something that is like a collaborative stewardship, you know, this franchise does have not control of you, but of who plays with you and of, you know, what the roster looks like in the shape that it takes. I want a front office that is proven. They know how to not just like stack a contender, but then make the requisite move after the move, after the move, after move. And they have the creativity in terms of managing the cap and scouting talent to keep finding guys so that you don't get into a situation where you have to fucking wave and stretch Damian Lillard to get Miles Turner on the team because you're so backed into a corner. It's like, how do you maintain the flexibility and how. What franchises can you really trust to do that and to help you manage your career? I think the Heat have shown they can be that kind of organization.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

I wonder where Giannis's head is at in terms of picking his destinations, because I assume once the button gets pushed, he's going to have a lot of say over where he goes. I think the Bucs have almost said this. Whether it's been reported or said outright, I think they're going to work with him just considering the sacrifices he's made or the. The past couple of years, whenever they went out and got somebody good for him. The next thing worries me, though, where it's just like, if you look at what they would have to give, you'd have to really kind of just strip mine, that team of its essence in order to vault yourself onto it. And so, like, even if it was Brunson and Giannis, like, what's there left? Like, can you keep an og? Can you keep a Mikhail? Like, how do you build something sensible from there? I understand, like, it's New York, and he's talked around the idea that, like, he likes the idea of big markets and also international players being around big markets, but I don't know, I'm a little worried that he might not have the best sense of, like, all the market forces that would be in play here. And so I agree with Rob. I think Miami makes a lot of sense, and there's probably enough leftover there where you would have a team. And plus, Miami unearths all these guys on the. On the fringes and they'd find rotation players. If it's not Miami, I would say Houston makes some sense, if only because there's going to be a lot left over or at least enough leftover in order to make a good team from there. And also, like, they have the identity that I've kind of crafted already for myself and the Bucks, where it's like, defense length and just, like, smashing through all the wall sort of stuff. I like that as a fit. But again, do they have enough? Like, I'm. I'm going through the Rockets, I'm like, am I going to give up Shen Goon?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I don't know.

[Justin Varior]

Am I going to give up?

[J. Kyle Mann]

That's.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

You don't like it organization?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, I don't like it organization. Yeah. And then, I mean. I mean, Shingun has been healthy. He's been playing. This has been the best year of his career.

[Rob Mahoney]

Awesome.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He fits with what they do, the personality of what they do. Like, their cohesive personality is just Fantastic. If you watch them together, I would be really, really hesitant to do that. Like, and I don't know. I don't know that the Rockets are in the business of really caring about what message that sends. That would be a big question, but I just don't know that I would go for that. My question with the Heat is, who's in that deal? Because, like, if you're. If you're Giannis and you're wanting to go to that team and be. It does. Do they demand hero? Do they mean, is it hero?

[Rob Mahoney]

It almost have to be in.

[J. Kyle Mann]

The deal is banned.

[Rob Mahoney]

Whether they're going to Milwaukee or somewhere.

[Justin Varior]

I think you hold on.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Bam.

[Justin Varior]

But everyone else is in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Claw ware is probably a chip in that deal. And then, yeah, then it's like draft compensation, and you're just hoping that the market is dry enough and that Giannis kind of pushes the chips in that particular direction.

[Justin Varior]

If he's pushing his way there specifically, they could get a deal done. But you're right, right. Like, does it. Are they, like, on the top five of your suitors if, like, you had a list drawn up in the Bucks?

[Rob Mahoney]

Probably not. I think the thing I wonder with Giannis is he is a player who likes to be pushed and challenged in particular ways. He's also a guy who's kind of. Of his basketball habits, and I think has had a hard time branching out from them, in part because of what the basketball situation has been in Milwaukee. It's like, a lot of people want him to set more screens and play in different capacities. Like, well, look at the roster.

[Justin Varior]

Do I have to?

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you have to? And who. Who are you willing to do it for?

[J. Kyle Mann]

For.

[Rob Mahoney]

And when I think about the Heat, part of that equation, to me, is I think Eric Spoelstra is one of the few coaches in the league who has the gravitas to ask Giannis to. To play a little bit differently. And I think mentally, again, because he is a guy who wants to be challenged. The Heat have that culture of, like, you come here and we will make you the best version of the player you can be, but we're, in doing so, we're going to push you further and harder than you've ever been pushed. And there is at least part of Giannis that wants that, it seems.

[Justin Varior]

See, I think that conversation's more about who's left over on the team, who hold that superstar status that might push up against me, because I think he's going to steamroll any coach who's there, and I think he's proven that. But the fact that he didn't really blend as much into Dame as he probably should have in order to make that work, considering he was pretty excited about that move, definitely signaled something to me. And so if I'm looking at teams, I'm like, I want to be the star. If I'm Giannis, I want to be the true blue star. And that's another problem with the Rockets, where it's like in the Knicks, like, and the Knicks.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, Brunson and Giannis do work, but they're not the cleanest possible.

[Justin Varior]

No. A lot of pivots, a lot of.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, two guys who really want to get in the paint. And Brunson is a great shooter on top of that. So they could work.

[Justin Varior]

God, the free throws, there would be 50 between the two of them in a game. It would be. It would be rough, but it would be.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Miami fits the bill of close. We've talked on and on about how they have kind of played their hand really well in the beginning of the season with Spoelstra. You know, finding a way for them to play that works. Them pivoting to something that has a lot more optional. Optionality like Giannis. I mean, they do fit the profile. I mean, Pat Riley has said, I know Bucks fans are very sensitive about how old we say Giannis is. It's just he's not. He's closer to the end of his prime than the beginning. I think that's fair. Can we agree on that, Bucks fans?

[Rob Mahoney]

He's not Kevin Durant to the Suns at this point. Right.

[Justin Varior]

I'm a little worried just considering how hard he plays, though.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Justin Varior]

And it isn't come out of nowhere like he gets these now multiple times a year.

[J. Kyle Mann]

It is a play style, too, that doesn't have any kind of a counter that is like. Like KD's been able to last because his technique and he can. He can butter a lot of his bread. Going over the top of people and setting up Giannis, it's a lot of abuse. It's a lot of getting in the lane. It's a lot of pivoting. It's. You do just kind of. I'm not trying to wish his life away here and just wonder when he's going to get old, but I'm just like, you do kind of wonder how that ages. Because he's the best driving. You want to call him a five. I think he's the best driving five of all time. Or risk driving four of all time. I would say other than LeBron. Right. I mean, because the best driving big of all time. Sure, we agree on that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's do it.

[J. Kyle Mann]

So I. I just don't think we have. We know really how to gauge how that is going to age, and I think that's always just been a big part of the discussion for me.

[Justin Varior]

I. I mean, it feeds right back into. The first thing we were talking about is, like, if you're trading for Giannis, can you assure that he's going to be on the court for 70 games through his 30s?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, no.

[Justin Varior]

And that's why I think teams would be right to be hesitant. I think there's a lot of, like, apron fear mongering happening, but I think this is like, a real, like, repercussion of guys just not being out here.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. I mean, look, the availability is what it is. I'm just, like, not at the point where I'm considering him a substantial injury risk. Yes, he picks up injuries. Yes. There have been seasons he hasn't been able to finish. He's Giannis. Like, overall, what you're getting from him to me completely outweighs the concern about, like, will he pick up this or that? Will he be absent 15 games this season? I'm willing to tolerate all of that stuff if it means getting Giannis undertokounmpo on my team.

[Justin Varior]

Should we start going with you by one name? Like, so. Just so I can go, he's Robbie.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, I'm not Robbie Mahone. Definitely not Robbie. That's not. I mean, look, I'm not a. I'm not a full name type, though.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Baloney.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, there's some guys who. It's like you have to say both names in concert.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Kyle, man is kind of one of these.

[Justin Varior]

I was.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I was a first, last name guy in college. Yeah, you had to call the way it goes.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, how does that make you feel? Do you feel like you're off to the side? Do you feel alienated by being a first and last guy?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I've always said I wish I had one of those really musical, pretty names, but I just. Where did Giannis rank on the top 100 at this past time?

[Justin Varior]

He tends to stick in the top five range. I think he's three or four, I believe so. I think Luka might be three at this point.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's kind of the conversation with him is the Luka, Giannis, it's Jokic and Shay up top, and then it's Luka and Giannis kind of in those next spots.

[Justin Varior]

We're not allowed to look at 1 and 2 at all or we'll be just sent to the gulag. Number three on the list here related to this. So if Giannis isn't in play, right, who's the next guy? Who's like the next star or just. Just most interesting guy to you guys who would be realistically on the move in this season, it still has to.

[Rob Mahoney]

Be Anthony Davis, right? Just in terms of the best player who could conceivably be traded, you know, if you want to just go straight down the ring or top 100, he's probably the next best guy who might be moved. Not the most interesting answer to, to your point, Justin, but if he, if 80 is available, he can change things for a lot of teams and I think you have to tip your hat to that.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I mean, I just found myself circling this group of players who, the younger players who have hit these skids of either the trouble like Jaw and Memphis has had in terms of on and off court fitting into what they're trying to do, whatever it is, just trying to pick a direction for them as a franchise. Obviously Zion, these guys who just, I think they're interesting. Davis is more of a question of, you know, if you get him, he's going to impact winning directly, right? These are guys of like, okay, this could be a total, you know, makeover for their career, like go another direction. I tho. That's kind of the group that I've been kind of circling in terms of the more interesting. But I don't, I don't know. Do you. Do you think either one of those guys could change or even a Lamelo ball could change? Which among those three LaMelo Ball, Ja or Zion Williamson could change teams at this deadline and impact the title conversation. Is that even in play?

[Justin Varior]

I think Lamelo jumps out to me, if only because if you just solve for his injury concerns, then we might be in a different ballpark all of a sudden because you could deal with the loosey goosey ness that just comes with the territory. But I'll take the good stuff as long as he's on the court for 70 games. I don't know how you can assure that, but the other guys are a little bit dicer. Zion doesn't play and JA doesn't play enough at this point. And so like if we're just stacking them based on availability, like give me Lamelo.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm a full on Lamello booster and even I have to admit the Loosey Goonies goosiness has really tested my patience this week too. Goosey A little, A little too much. A little too much loose on that goose.

[Justin Varior]

Okay. Yes, I agree.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's been, it's been tough. Like he just hasn't had the same like comprehensive impact on winning with the Hornets that we've seen in some of his better seasons. You know, in terms of the splits, in terms of the impact on his teammates, in terms of God forbid, anything resembling shooting efficiency just like has not really been there for him this year. I think we would be remiss not to mention that John Morant for the vast majority of his career has been a 50 win machine and he is the source of so many problems with the Grizzlies. But in terms of to your question, Kyle, who actually moves a title race in any way, you put John Morant on a run of the mill Eastern Conference team and they just start winning regular season games if he is healthy and available to play, that to me feels more tangible than anything Lamelo has done and certainly anything that Zion has done.

[Justin Varior]

Here's my question with JA do you have five backup point guards in order to soak up all the minutes that.

[Rob Mahoney]

He'S even the Grizzlies have shown that's not enough.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, that's true.

[Justin Varior]

But yeah, I think there is somewhere deep within Jaw a team like Miami that can give him structure. That might help. I don't know. I. I still think Lamelo has another.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He'D be going to play the style he got mad about, so that would be a problem too.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, that's true. But circling back to AD though. Yeah, I've kind of talked myself into the idea that they can't trade him because any team that's going to trade for him is going to sell the Mavs on this version of him. That's just like they'll just give him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Nothing for but they just did that with Luka Doncic and they were thrilled about it.

[Justin Varior]

We're working in a more realistic scenario. Even if our realistic scenario is fake and that one was actually real.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oddly true.

[Justin Varior]

But like if you're the Bulls or any of these teams that can trade for AD at this point, point, yeah. And you're willing to work through the injury stuff and all that, you're not going to give anything up of value. And so if you're the Mavs, you're probably fine just keeping him around if only because of this far off like fantasy of him playing with Kyrie and Flag and like the maps have been fine. We talked about him a couple podcasts ago. Like as currently structured with A real point guard in order to set people up.

[Rob Mahoney]

They're fine.

[Justin Varior]

They might make a plane push.

[Rob Mahoney]

They're right in that mix right now. Totally fine.

[Justin Varior]

You just don't have to do something. And then you deal with the extension concerns over the offseason because AD Is extension eligible, and it seems like he wants that as soon as possible. So I don't know. I just don't see AD Going anywhere.

[Rob Mahoney]

They definitely shouldn't do it just because, like, trading Anthony Davis because you feel some nebulous push from within yourself that you have to do. It is complete trash. Do not do that. The questions for me are, what west team starts slipping in the standings to the. To the point that they get nervous. And then it's not a conversation about, oh, we're trading for this flawed version of Anthony Davis. It's, we need the Anthony Davis who will save our season. We need the Anthony Davis who will, like, stick, like, put us in the ground where we are not drifting down in a really competitive conference. Or if you want to flip it to the east, it's like, who in the east shows enough that their front office is, like, given the opening, here we are one Anthony Davis away from really making a hard push at the Knicks, at the Pistons, at whoever you see as being at the top of the conference.

[Justin Varior]

I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think there are enough factors in play that could make Anthony Davis feel like even more of a vital asset, given all of the complications in injury history, than just like, a. As compromised goods.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Think the Celtics could make a run at Anthony Davis?

[Rob Mahoney]

They could.

[Justin Varior]

It's tough to unspool their top three.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[J. Kyle Mann]

That's the only problem.

[Justin Varior]

Like, if you want to talk Jalen, like, then you can get into some interesting scenarios. But, yeah, I wouldn't at this point. He's all NBA guy at this season.

[J. Kyle Mann]

It's money to money. Yeah. With him and with Tatum and Brown. But you'd have to. I mean, you could go white. Simons. Yeah. It's not. It's. Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

Also, AD Said some pretty bad things about Boston last time.

[J. Kyle Mann]

That's true.

[Justin Varior]

Or at least his dad.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. Which I'm sure he wasn't talking to his son at that point.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, it's dad. Dad's in the media. Complicated business.

[J. Kyle Mann]

If Ange were there, he wouldn't care. He'd do it.

[Justin Varior]

80S dad has a long history of saying some wild shit, let me tell you. Well, I think you had the right idea with the east thing, like, who's going to sense the opportunity? And one thing I Wonder is if Laurie Markin isn't going to go and it seems like at this point the Jazz might be too good. We're at this point of the year where it's like Jazz won too many games. I guess they're fucked and they just have to eat it.

[Rob Mahoney]

They know how to fix that. They do it every time.

[Justin Varior]

It didn't get good enough last year. But if we're saying if they hold on to Laurie and they just say he's too good or reach your good, whatever it might be, I do wonder if teams start calling around about MPJ and noticing that he's like a borderline all Star at this point. And so I have him down here.

[Rob Mahoney]

So yeah, I want to talk about this exact same conundrum with our next prompt. So can we just segue straight into it if you don't mind?

[Justin Varior]

Sure. Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

You wanted to talk about which sad sack franchises should take advantage of the demand and sell off their stars.

[Justin Varior]

You're going to skip the pun there?

[Rob Mahoney]

The pun you tabbed his misery business at the top, which I appreciate your little nod to me and to Steph and to Haley Williams. Miz as we know it.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I didn't even know. Is that a reference to a Paramore song?

[Rob Mahoney]

Kyle? Jesus Christ.

[Justin Varior]

It was mostly a Haley ref for her.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I don't care alone.

[Rob Mahoney]

I, I, I see what you're doing, you know, I see you making the.

[Justin Varior]

She'S in the ringer network. You know.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know she is part of the the ringer galaxy of stars completely. But yeah, I think in the same.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Way that I'm great friends with Amy Poehler.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. Close personal friends with Amy Poehler. If the Giannis market doesn't go as anticipated, those are teams who have all their ducks in a row who are ready to do something, who in some cases will need to do something or at least have the strong want to do it. And they're eyeing power forward specifically. And so will they take those same assets or not exactly. But some combination of them to the Jazz and say Larry marking it isn't Giannis, but we need something at the four different than what we have. And if that doesn't work, then do you go to MPJ as you're saying, who has been quite good. And I think both those guys, especially Lowry and MPJ just have such clear utility to winning teams. We've seen it with both of them. We've seen them fill into these slots and their shooting and their impact and their size be just like such a real factor. And so with them on the board. I think Utah should absolutely consider it. We've been nudging them in that direction for a long time. I think the Nets for as well as MPJ has played should definitely look at trying to flip him even a further step down the line, despite how well he's played.

[J. Kyle Mann]

We've talked a lot about Lowry with. With the Pistons. What about MPJ with the Pistons? I just thought this in the moment. I mean, you could go Ron Holland, Tobias Harris expiring, and then I don't know, like, was that. What is that? The money's close. You could get there.

[Justin Varior]

Here's what a cool guy I am on a Saturday night in Los Angeles, one of the most happening cities as Rob knows. He's out in the town just shaking hands and kissing babies.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I don't think they like that here. I don't think they want any of that.

[Justin Varior]

Well, you're doing it anyway. I was thinking to myself, is mpj given all of the history, the injury history in particular, like, is he enough of an upgrade over what you have with Tobias Harris that you'd be willing to trade real stuff to get it?

[Rob Mahoney]

What is real stuff?

[Justin Varior]

Well, like a Ron Holland or just future draft picks or like maybe even a Jaden Ivy.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I could stop you right there. In terms of shot making, I mean, it's a significant upgrade in a way. And the Pistons are a team that just keep like recurring for me in this. In this exercise of who's desperate, who's. Who's sad, who's. It's just the bleak. We're just going through the bleak and the desperate. The soap opera of the NBA at the bottom. And if you look at them, the Pistons are the team where I'm like, who re. If you look at like really basketball wise, who could stand to do it if they want to be serious getting MPJ in there. Granted he's not as dynamic a player as. But he's had experience playing off the ball with the best off ball utilizer in the world with Jokic. K is gonna. Would find him. I just think that would be an interesting. If you can't get Lowry, you're getting a guy who's big and is just as, just as good, better like in terms of a shot maker.

[Justin Varior]

I think that's the difference right there. Lowry probably changes your offense and evolves it in a way that's probably more interesting and more dynamic. MPJ is just like the absolute best version of what you have with Spice.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I. I think that happens in a couple different ways. Yes. Just the shot making for size is elite in the history of the game. Also with that is so good at hitting contested threes in particular. And so yeah, even though you're not rewiring everything you do offensively, just having the extra like gap of time where he can get a clean shot off off of what is a routine pass for Cade Cunningham that now turns into a great look. And by putting it giving it to MPJ instead of Tobias Harris, that makes it an even greater look. Like I think there are these trade offs of the Pistons that still make a lot of sense, especially if you're getting that kind of size back. Where I get nervous with Detroit is we want to trade Tobias and Ron Holland and some other combination of picks for a wing. For someone who doesn't have actual power forward size, I get a little dicey about that given some of the guys are going to have to battle with in the playoffs. Not really a problem with Lowry, not really a problem with mpj. I think they're completely worthy candidates even for a great Eastern Conference team.

[Justin Varior]

He's ratcheted up the volume this year. He's at like 9 a game on threes and the efficiency hasn't slumped at all like in terms of like high volume three point shooting. It's Steph Maxey, Mitchell and MPJ. So nine field goal attempts, 39% from three arbitrary endpoints. But he's been successful. He does have the green light in Brooklyn in a way that he wouldn't have in a trip. But he just would cycle back into what he was alongside Jokic like so it works. The one, the one sticking point is just the injuries and long term success. Did you guys know that MPJ has something called foot drop?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin Varior]

I'd never seen the brace that he wears. It's before and I saw a photo of it. It's like scary. Yeah. And like you think it's because it's more of a back thing but he's.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Learned to live with it in a way that's been really surprising.

[Justin Varior]

Apparently he's had it for years.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, he got, I think it was after his back stuff started to clear up. It was all just kind of and once you just his, he's just, he had a series of events. I, I, I've been really amazed that he's been able and we joked a lot in the off season. I know. I, Joe, I always love making a good MPJ joke about how he inoculates you from, from, from stagnant offense and things. But he, he has been really, really effective. I I thinking about this deal, though. I'm like, this potential deal. They would want Ivy if they were going to do that. I don't think it would be Holland. Right. It would be like I would want something with some upside play like Ivy and then I'd want to pick or, you know, give me. We'll do. We'll take the dead salary and get a pick and then get a promising player. Like, especially if you're talking about the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Nets just like pawning stuff off just to do it just because the market lends itself to it. You're not going to do it just for Ron Holland and salary filler. That's.

[Justin Varior]

It's just not enough, which is saying something because they got the juicy future Denver pick, which is probably going to be a post Jokic pick plus stuff on top of that. This is the deal that keeps on giving. Do you have a team for this one? The sad sack franchise who could take advantage of the demand and sell off a star?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, I thought that this. When you said sad sack, you were saying like sad sac, like Sacramento. Because I mean, the sad. The saddest team. The saddest ever was, folks. Yeah, I mean, the team Demon Sabonis is only 29 years old. He feels way older than that, but he's still got some. There's still some. There's still some tread on those tires.

[Rob Mahoney]

Being in Sacramento does age a man. You know, it just, it really puts.

[Justin Varior]

You through it or.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Or kill a man. A lot of serial killers from there, if you're looking at. If you're just looking at their options. I was looking across the league. I don't know. I was. I was thinking about these teams that have kind of skill on the perimeter that could use a little bit of connectivity. I was like, Phoenix could be interesting if you could get. I was like, Jalen. And maybe would you trade a first for Sabonis at this point in his life or Phoenix? Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah. I was just trying to think of a team that had some skill like that that could be unlocked Grizzlies. I was like, yeah, maybe, maybe.

[Rob Mahoney]

Also, Ed had been so good before he got hurt.

[J. Kyle Mann]

But like I was telling you all. Yeah, like, Edie, at this point, we're just like. I think we're reaching. Like, is this. I'm starting to get kind of nervous about this because this is like one after one injury after another directed by Zach Edie at this point. True, it's. It's tough, but I know Sabonis was somebody that came to mind for me across the league. A team that he. He's got something to give someone. I guess it's just a matter of what are you willing to give up for him?

[Justin Varior]

Like you were saying, I could just never find a fit for him. I guess Chicago, if they really want to just like take him for nothing. But he's got two more years on his deal. You would imagine he wants an extension.

[Rob Mahoney]

On top of that, he cannot be allowed to be a Chicago Bull.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I mean, non shooter with Gideon.

[Justin Varior]

Enough.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is what I'm saying.

[Justin Varior]

Those are just.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Those are. Yeah, those are batteries that are repelling that doesn't work.

[Justin Varior]

I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up there because I just. I can never find the right fit for him. Because you're sacrificing so much defensively as the Kings know way too well. As the Pacers know way too well. And so I just don't know how to fit him into the right front court of a team that has any sort of aspirations for the immediate.

[Rob Mahoney]

I still think Charlotte makes some sense. I thought about them and some of it is like again, Sabonis having the half court facility that then lends itself to Lamelo being up and down and erratic and doing all of the kind of exploratory shit that. That he does. Like if Sabonis is holding everything together, I'm. I just have more lenience with everything Lamello wants to explore. And so I think that balance, like they have a partnership that would be very unconventional, would be quite strange, but I think could also kind of work. It just depends on what would you entice the Kings with to functionally blow up the best thing they have going.

[Justin Varior]

Right. I. If I'm Charlotte, I don't punt on having rim protection for the next couple years next to Knipple and my future for the stopgap solution.

[Rob Mahoney]

But that depends on if you see Ryan Cockburner as like a real actual multi year center option or he's a rotation big. Sure. It's a big contract and he could.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Jesus Christ.

[Rob Mahoney]

And he could still be behind Damona Sabonis as well. Or Musa Diabate. We should say like also in this mix as well.

[Justin Varior]

Pretty good. Well, since we're talking about centers, we should do mine. I have Jaren Jackson Jr. Down here.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Okay.

[Justin Varior]

I'm just wondering more and more if like this is a full scale rebuild at this point, if you are kind of accepting the idea that we've lost our North Star, that JA will never get back to what he was at Least when he's here, and probably not in totality. Like, where does Jackson fit in there? He's had a very disappointing season. Just kind of silently in the background of all the noise of Ja. Now, he was injured going into the season. That might play a factor in it. They did move away from the offense. That kind of really seemed to unlock him. So there are a lot of factors here, and he just seems like a good guy who, like, wants to be there. They just, like, renegotiate and extended him last season at the same time. Like, can we get a barrel stuff if we just kind of move on for this guy now? Because I think he would have a lot of suitors. We talked about the spurs, for instance. Like, if you can pay less for a center next to Giannis, like, does Jaren Wemby make some sense in a different way?

[Rob Mahoney]

That's kind of duplicative, though.

[Justin Varior]

Okay. You don't. It doesn't tug on the harsh strings that he can go back to where his dad played? I mean, that doesn't factor in your trade analysis.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe it should.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Maybe I'm call it in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe I'm being too cold about it. Yeah. I think the idea of, like, who you want with Wemby is not necessarily a Jaren Jackson type.

[Justin Varior]

Okay, but what about in general? You guys open to the idea of moving Jaren? Certainly the right idea.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why would you look at the Grizzlies and feel like, oh, anything happening here?

[Justin Varior]

Can't break this in.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's beyond the pale to even talk about trading Jaren Jackson.

[Justin Varior]

But that's like, that's the difference from what we were saying the offseason, where it's like, oh, this might be just a half measure, the Bane trade, in order to get to what might come later. They could just retool, not rebuild.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think Jod detonated the half.

[J. Kyle Mann]

So when we were. When I mentioned that. I think I mentioned it even in passing when we were listing off the potential fits with Queen, that really intrigued me. It's just kind of a question of trade.

[Justin Varior]

More picks.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, New Orleans, what could you get? Yeah, I mean, they've got some. It's just. What. What are you after? If you're the Grizzlies, are you after more after future for Lane or you? Is there is somebody. Because they do have a couple wings here. I mean, I'm just trying to think of.

[Justin Varior]

I'm open to anything if I'm.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

At this point, just give me the. The carrot, like the one blue chip.

[Rob Mahoney]

Asset, and I think you're trying to just punt everything down the line. You're just trying to stretch out your time horizon. Get as much young talent or picks as you can because otherwise there's not going to be a quick pivot off a Jaron Jackson trade, I don't think.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, because you're looking at the. I mean New Orleans owns their own firsts through 28 through 31. I mean you could go after that, but you'd have to be naive if you were the Pelicans and think you're closer than you are.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, I just think there's an opportunity to be a seller here. And if Memphis, which tends to be a little bit more forward looking than a lot of organizations less precious about certain things, I could see it. Why don't we go to our next question? Number five, team that needs to make a deal the most. I have Detroit actually down here. So we talked about them already, so we don't need to belabor it. But like Tatum's coming back next year or maybe this year. We'll see. And right now the only team that scares me in the east is the Knicks. And I think they're beatable. This is not like some Goliath that you can't push through. We have to hold on. If I find a deal, if I'm Detroit, that keeps me on the same timeline. Doesn't like limit my window. I'm doing it because there's a real opportunity.

[Rob Mahoney]

But even there you just didn't. If I find a deal, we're talking about who needs to make a trade. Do the Detroit Pistons need to make a trade? If they, they did nothing between today and the deadline. They're still one of the best teams in the east and might win the Eastern Conference.

[Justin Varior]

It depends on how much, much emphasis you put on need. If it's a lot, if they need, but if it's a need.

[Rob Mahoney]

To do.

[Justin Varior]

It, I don't know.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, I mean if we. Let's imagine even like taking a step backwards and saying like they do want a deal, like a Lowry or an MPJ type of thing. Where would like realistically, if we like imagine what that would be in a playoff series, would they beat the Knicks? I mean, I felt like the additional ball handling. We mentioned Schroeder last year, I was like, I feel like that was one of the things too that that really help them get over the hump in that. And then I'm just trying to think or be really, really competitive in that series.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. If you deal Ivy like you're counting on Some of the backup guys, the Jenkins, the Sassers in order to be rotation guys.

[J. Kyle Mann]

And that's tough. I'm just like. I don't know that they're going to quite get there. As much as I love the idea, but I do. It just depends on how pressed you're feeling in this situation where the east has been such a mess. I. I want them to make a move.

[Justin Varior]

It might be more want than need.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah. I'm just. Yeah. If. I think if they're going to be. It'd just be close. I think at best if you're. If you're the Pistons and you're thinking about this year like you were talking about Tatum coming back.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean one. One piece of this that's like not insignificant but probably doesn't. It should not govern the Pistons thinking. If you are giving up all handlers. It's not just Jenkins and Sasser. Caris Lavert has quietly been like quite good. And I don't know how I feel about Caris LeVert being quite good in November. December being the governing principle that will lead me to trade away other ball handlers and hope that he is in May and June. But I think. I think he has at least come onto the radar as a more significant piece of that team that certainly I expected coming in. And I think he deserves some recognition for that.

[Justin Varior]

I think the bigger thing is their bench had a defensive possession against the Hawks the other day. I don't know if you guys seen this highlight where they forced a turnover shot clock violation. And like everyone in the arena fucking loved it. The bench loved it, the crowd loved it. And that's a crowd that hasn't had a lot to cheer for for a while, like. And I was like, God damn, do we really want to disrupt the good vibes here? That's the one thing. It seems like they have something collectively an identity, a spirit that I don't know if you'd want to mess with.

[Rob Mahoney]

But how do we. Here's. Here's what any team should do if you want to cultivate that kind of defensive identity. But you can't get the real deal. Detroit Pistons organic juice. Let's do the Chick Fil A sandwich giveaway for 24 second violations. Like, don't make it free throws. Don't make it a random game of chance. Like, this is a real thing. And as it gets closer to zero, that place is going to set on fire for chicken. I love it. You know what? We do what we got to do. We got if we need. If we need to put our finger on like the lever a little bit and just pull it ever so slightly to get the energy in the building. I think you should do it.

[Justin Varior]

Let's get those dancing cows out there immediately.

[Rob Mahoney]

Come on.

[Justin Varior]

Who do you have for this one team that needs to make a deal of moat.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I had the Pistons. I have. I mean, the Wolves are a team that I think we. I was. We were. I was alluding to this earlier that, you know, you have this defense that is solid that you can lean on and it's the Dillingham experience experiment. I mean, he was out there the other night and looked okay. As much as it hurts me to say. And then Colin is not up to the challenge. I. They're a team that I would be looking at to. Because it does kind of feel like they're still kind of in the conversation. I mean, if we're talking about in a playoff series, if they could get a steady ball handler. I mean, they invested a lot in this Colbert thing. So I think if you're talking about who needs to do something, I mean, in that sense they do. So yeah, they're a team. And you know, Randall's not getting any younger. I think you've got this thing that is moving forward that if you could bolster it, I think you've got a shot.

[Justin Varior]

You know, I'm surprised Dillingham played when you watched. What an absolute. Just catastrophe. Is it that bad at this point?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's been pretty bad.

[Justin Varior]

I have him listed down. So our next question is the Bilo guys. I have him listed down there, if only because I want him to go somewhere else where he can play minutes because just. I just don't get it. I don't see how a team that's built around defense can force his size into what they do in order for him to play through some of his mistakes.

[Rob Mahoney]

It would be easier if the offense were better. Like if it were just an office. That's been the most trade off.

[J. Kyle Mann]

That'd be the most. That's been the most shocking thing for me is that he offensively was just so good at every other level of play. And it's just not. Just hasn't translated. He looks like a shot maker but not a pure shooter a lot of times. And he's not a pure. He's not. He's somebody that wants to score and he's not a pure facilitator. So you see, you end up with this. This kind of wishy washy thing that also can't play defense and that Just doesn't work for them. Like, he's not. He's not a steady metronome player. Like a. Like a younger Mike Conley might be. Older Mike Conley's just not prepared to do it at the volume that they need him to do it. So I think. I do think that they. If they're going to capitalize on this window, they're going to have to figure something out and Dillingham might be a part of it.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. Who do you have for team that needs to make the deal?

[Rob Mahoney]

The Cleveland Cavaliers. All the same reasons you kind of laid out just in terms of the east being up for grabs and the tickets ticking clock here. I think the difference between them and the Pistons is everything feels bad with the Cavs all the time. Like the record is okay, but ultimately, like the look and feel of the team is not great. Everything when you watch them play, everything feels like it's going uphill and they've lost to me so much of the connectivity that made them so good last season. And they've had guys in and out of the lineup. I don't want to just gloss over that. That's a real thing in terms of affecting the dynamics and the flow of the team and the offense specifically. But in particular, I would say the Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell combination has looked untenable defensively and especially when only one big has been out there with Jared Allen out of the mix. Just doesn't look like a group that can work together and that has the balance that you would need to really compete, much less contend in the Eastern Conference.

[Justin Varior]

They're lost at sea. I don't know what happened over the past year. Maybe just like hitting your head in the playoffs too many times just like completely threw them. Just.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know.

[Justin Varior]

How do you unspool? That would be my counter there where it's like. It seems like they need a wholesale change in order to like re energize what they lost.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the kind of trade I think we're talking about is. Is like real significant stuff.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Whether Garland or Allen or both or something. It's to the point where they even just turned up Jalen Tyson, who's been a good rotation player for them. And it means nothing. It has made no difference despite the fact that he's a good player having a nice season. Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

I don't know how you take a step back though, Kyle, because if it's. Let's say you just prioritize Mitchell and Mobley and just figure out the rest like Is Mitchell going to be along for the ride of figuring this thing out?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Three years, 46.3. Yeah. And he's. He's going to be turning 30 next year. I'm just kind of. They do kind of feel under the. Under the gun here. If they're. If you're going to bet on Mitchell, it does kind of make it seem like an immediate thing is going to be the way to go.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's so good. Like, he's been great.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He's incredible.

[Rob Mahoney]

Again, like, it's all tough for him because of the circumstances, but that dude can put up damn near 50. Like, there just aren't enough guys in the league doing that to the point where I would feel very reluctant to part with him.

[J. Kyle Mann]

You'd like to see it easier for him, but he. He has shown time and time again that that's the way he wants to play. He wants to play spread pick and roll, and he wants to. And it's. I don't know. Are you going to get. Because we're. We're sitting here looking at him and Garland together, and you're like, this makes sense. You could see on paper. I feel like I've been wringing my hands for the past few years about this. Like, why it doesn't work together, them, the two of them moving in, split action together, moving in, just whatever it is. And it just never has quite gotten there. I was trying to. The Garland thing is hard, too, because of how much money he makes. It's like, how I was. I was like, well, Timberwolves maybe, but you can't.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah.

[J. Kyle Mann]

There's no way that you can make that work because he makes too much money.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank God he's had some okay games lately because Darius Garland has had, I would say, a disastrous season coming back from injury and, like, trying to find his footing again. Rob Dillingham. Levels of efficiency from a guy who has been like. Is a really great playmaker and is one of the league's best shooters, despite what he has shown us lately.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. And the one excuse coming out of last postseason was, well, they didn't have Garland to set everybody up in that postseason matchup with the Pacers. But now he's back, and I think they run out of excuses at this point.

[Rob Mahoney]

35% from the field, 27% from three for Darius Garland this season. And the signs of life are nice. I just don't know that I'm, like, ready to believe them until he can be that for weeks on end, which is exactly what the Cavs need right now.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Are we overreacting, though, a little bit, though?

[Rob Mahoney]

To which part?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, just. I mean, it's like the entire podcast. Jared Allen, Sam. Sam Merrill, Max Stru. Those. Those add a lot of kind of gravitational rhythm to your offense, which. The absence of. Which would just fall onto hard mode. Donovan Mitchell.

[Justin Varior]

Yes.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Drummer extraordinaire. It's hard for him to get into a rhythm if those pieces aren't there. I don't know. I'm just kind of like, should we. Is there a little bit. Is there a pinch of wait and see that needs to go in the stew a little bit?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, aren't the Cavs, like, they've been riding on wait and see for three years, just kind of waiting for this thing to coalesce? And I think it has to a degree. We've seen it. We've also seen them cap out with that more or less that formula. I think if. If Mitchell and Garland were playing better together with one big. And Mobley has had to fill that role a lot recently, I would feel like, okay, there's something here. They have. They have that flexibility. They're going to work Allen back, and the team is going to kind of find its equilibrium, but they can't really work that way. Like those. Those lineups are a disaster defensively. Like with the two guards on the floor together with one big. You put Mobley out there. We've seen the way that can be kind of stodgy offensively, especially in the playoffs, even with the rhythm that they had last season. So I just. I just don't believe in what they're doing. And I watch them play, I'm like, I don't think these guys believe in what they're doing.

[Justin Varior]

It was a bad harbinger when Allen had a finger injury and decided to play through it. But then he had a finger injury. On the other hand. It's just like. It's like, how bad can this get? All right, let's go to our last question here. Number six, the buy low player you're eyeing who could use a change of scenery. You're a buy low guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I tried.

[Justin Varior]

You like to get a bargain?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm working the market, you know.

[J. Kyle Mann]

You like a little T.J. maxx?

[Justin Varior]

Yeah.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Zach Lopez merging T.J. maxx really upset me.

[Rob Mahoney]

What did he say?

[J. Kyle Mann]

He said, crap for sale. That's what he called T.J. maxx.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wow. Well, you know, the Sean Kemp jersey I picked up as a fourth grader says otherwise.

[Justin Varior]

You know, he struck me as a maxinista, though. That's surprising.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe Ross guy.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I immediately hit him up and was like, how dare you? I don't know. You got to go through. You thumb through the racks, you see what's in there. That's the whole point, man journey.

[Rob Mahoney]

But, yeah, I'm trying to buy. I'm trying to maximize shareholder value at every chance I get.

[Justin Varior]

That's what life's all about, baby. Who do you have for this one?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know what this says about me, but I still want to believe that Zach lavine can be a good player on a good team somewhere.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I'm the Walter White meme hitting the car window.

[Rob Mahoney]

Nah, I just. He's. He's such a great shooter. He's great in movement. I'm just like, waiting for the chance for everyone to see it in a way that makes sense for somebody. The problem is he gets paid a fuck ton of money in a way that's really hard to justify the gamble of doing it. He's also at a weird place where the teams that you would think could most use him, which would be good defensive teams that need the scoring and the spacing. A lot of those teams are the teams we were talking about earlier, teams like the Thunder and the spurs or teams that are just like, really spoken for at shooting guard and don't necessarily need a Zach Levine in their lives. So I don't even know how you engineer a trade that gets to my dream, but I still hold the dream, and I'm going to continue to.

[Justin Varior]

If Derrick White is the plus minus, God is Zach Lavine like the plus minus. Just devil, I guess. Satan.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, I think he's been besmirched. Oh, I think you. You got to dig through the noise for that delicate little flicker of a signal in there.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He's kind of the Lord more the Lord of Light. He's cruel and indifferent at times. And you're like. You're like, what is going. You know, there's no. There's no, like, watch. We're watching over you. He's just a chaos agent doing whatever he wants to do. People may die.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, they have.

[Justin Varior]

Listen, it looks great when he's out there. The shot is gorgeous when he has his legs underneath them.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Like, he makes $47.4 million. How are you gonna.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who Herein lies the problem.

[Justin Varior]

I will say this. There's only one more year left, and that would be the upside. So if you're like Dallas or someone who can stuff that into your books and just get off another contract, I think they would be one of those Dances.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is why it's probably not going to happen this year.

[Justin Varior]

Yes. But since you mentioned Levine, I also have a king down here, but also with contractual issues. I have Malik Monk who, like, played nine minutes against the Pacers the other night.

[Rob Mahoney]

What's going on with that?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I don't understand.

[Justin Varior]

They just don't like playing guys. And in particular, they're good, productive players because Monk does something very well, and he has done that for Kings past. And I can't see why he, he can't do that again.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't get it.

[Justin Varior]

And trading him, unfortunately, is a little difficult because he has two more years in the 20s still on his contract. And as we've seen, teams are kind of. There's no country for small scoring guards anymore, especially young guys who make a lot of money. And so he's the exact type of player that I think teams are shying away from. But I want to see good things for him because he could galvanize a bench unit like, like few others in the league.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I think the pace in space movement, I've thought, I've thought a lot about this where the pace and space movement really shot to the moon. And we had that moment where like, before the defense, like the defensive officiating shifted back where it really served players like Malik Monk that kind of could get out and move around. Don't touch them. You know, they're just like the, the wispy lather kind of scores kind of thing. And I really feel like the shift the other way has hurt. I haven't studied this, like, scientifically, but I, I, I feel like it's hurt players like Malik Monk where it's like, he's not super. I'm just trying to. Is he, Is there a team out there? Like, I was thinking, could you, if you're the Rockets, could you go get Malik Monk in a cheap way? But you'd be adding defensive. He'd probably be like a second unit kind of a play. Right. Just to add a little bit of a punch. Cause you couldn't play him with your first unit A ton. Like, thinking of the Wolves again, probably not the Pistons, but we're just, we're talking about teams that are close and not necessarily somebody just off the radar that would make that move desperate for a reason. Unforeseen.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. I just find it very generous of you to prescribe that much meaning and philosophy to whatever it is that Doug Christie is doing on a daily basis. Like, I, I just have no idea what is governing the rotation decisions for the Kings in general, who plays and who doesn't. Keon Ellis is in the doghouse. No, he's back now. Malik Monk is in the dog. I like that. Space needs to be occupied by somebody, clearly, at all times. And I don't know why one guy is in favor and one guy is.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Is not.

[Justin Varior]

I think he just prioritizes being a grinder way too much because he'd be playing 40 minutes. I know, I know. It's true. But this is the problem with certain coaches, though. I do feel like they want the rest of their team to take on their identity when they played. And oftentimes that's not what you want your best, most skilled players to have. So do you have anyone for this one?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Talk about a vibe shift for the Kings. I just. It's just unbelievable, man. Like, God, in just such a short time, he was a part of something that was working. I was looking at just some young guys. It's been kind of fun. He was. This was never my guy. This was never my dude. I never was really a huge fan of Jairus Walker, but somebody out there that sees him and think. Because I'll hear people talk about him and they'll be like, there it is. I knew the whole time. Which gives me an idea that in that sample size, there are believers out there that might take a. Take a swing on him. Obviously, Kaminga, there are people. There are, like, ball knowers, real Hooper people out there. It's always real Hooper people who think Kaminga is not showing something that evil. Steve Kerr is just, like, punishing him for no reason. Kobe White's another one, I think. I. I feel like Kobe White, when he came back, I just feel like his. The tilt in his game didn't really serve them. I'm not saying he's, like, responsible for why the Bulls went on a slide, but he's somebody that I think in a new home, could kind of find a new lease on life.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I am one of the aforementioned Jarris Walker guys, I think.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Oh, shit. Did you want to. You want to, like, assault me right now? Go ahead.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's inarguable at this point. It just, like, has not worked. I just think we all have our Pat Williams. Williams is. You know, we all have these.

[J. Kyle Mann]

There's similar players.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like I was saying, I, for whatever reason, I could not get on board with Pat Williams. But I see Jerris Walker, I'm like, you know what?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Look at that body.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's just a matter of, like, how much patience you want to, like, how. How patient you want to be at the process of those guys coming along. I've been very patient with Jairus Walker. He's gotten lots of opportunity at this point to prove, well, if we're buying low, you know.

[Justin Varior]

No, I'm not buying at all.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, you're out.

[Justin Varior]

I was never in. I think you were one of the few I saw, like, I mean, the fact that they weren't able to play him gave him some credence to the idea that, like, there's something untapped here. But now that he's playing a much.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Not a lot of mystery in jerky.

[J. Kyle Mann]

What about Kobe White, though?

[Justin Varior]

Kobe White is good. It is funny. I do wonder if you can convince the Bulls that they're blaming him for all of their malaise right now, when this was, I think, predicted by all of us. But since he came back, it does feel like things have time to. They just can't figure it out now.

[Rob Mahoney]

All of us, huh?

[Justin Varior]

Most of us.

[Rob Mahoney]

Are you inclusive in this us?

[Justin Varior]

No, I believe that's what I'm saying.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Okay. All right. This is a little rich.

[Rob Mahoney]

A little rich of an all of us declaration coming from you.

[Justin Varior]

I just want to have fun, you know, And I believe it. The Bulls are my type of fun.

[Rob Mahoney]

For the people not watching on video, Justin just looked at the standings to.

[Justin Varior]

See how far the Bulls had plummeted.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was like, you know what?

[Justin Varior]

Just to be clear.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Just to be clear. We started the podcast with Justin describing a miserable TSA situation that he would choose and then says, I just want to have fun and talk about the Bulls.

[Justin Varior]

We'll do it the hard way.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Just saying that is for sure.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. But no, I could see White. White needs a new home.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's good. He's a good player.

[Justin Varior]

I think we would have said he might be their best player going into this season.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

And so, yeah, really, like their best.

[Rob Mahoney]

All around, I think. Really?

[Justin Varior]

What'd you say? Giddy.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Giddy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Well, this is the thing you put you. When you make Josh Giddey your best player, you put in all the restrictions that come with playing Josh Giddey basketball. Kobe White can kind of play.

[Justin Varior]

They played fine together last year, at the end of last year.

[Rob Mahoney]

And yet.

[Justin Varior]

Touche. But no, that's a good one, I think, for a team that just needs juice. And he's. I think he's an expiring contract right now, and so you would have to pay him. That's the problem with all this. Goddamn aprons. Too many aprons.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Why do we have to pay these guys? I just don't understand.

[Justin Varior]

Can't they just do this for the love of the game?

[Rob Mahoney]

I know, like us, we don't get paid.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I'm not being paid.

[Justin Varior]

All right, why don't we wrap it there? We'll be back Wednesday and Thursday. What's going on there? A little double dip action. We're going to do our. Well, we won't give it away just yet. You'll see it on Wednesday. But there's going to be a two parter, big old thing where we're going to talk about every team in the NBA, all 30 teams, including the Chicago Bulls, for longer than you expect. But it'll be nice. We're gonna do that. We're gonna talk about cup final on, on Wednesday. Anything else? Maybe you're. Whatever you're doing in la, I think that's enough. You go into Bob's in order to, to get some new costume worker.

[Rob Mahoney]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I don't. What's Bob's? What?

[Justin Varior]

Bob's is a part of my life. It's a good, good feeling on a Saturday night. Bob's is like a discount clothing store. You guys didn't have that?

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[Justin Varior]

Okay.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Oh, no.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not in the streets like you are.

[Justin Varior]

Thank you to Victoria Muntz.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back Wednesday and Thursday. We'll talk to you then. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenectic it or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema. Org or call 800-327-5-OH50 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.