Wemby Out for Season, the Good and Bad of All-Star Weekend, and Is Expansion a Risky Idea for the NBA?

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show: Detailed Summary

Episode: Wemby Out for Season, the Good and Bad of All-Star Weekend, and Is Expansion a Risky Idea for the NBA?
Release Date: February 21, 2025
Hosts: Bill Simmons, Logan Murdoch, Raja Bell

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I. Victor Wembanyama's Season-Ending Injury

The episode begins with a somber discussion about Victor Wembanyama's unfortunate injury. Logan Murdoch expresses his dismay:

"[03:10] Logan Murdoch: I don't have anything else to say other than this sucks, Howard. This really sucks."

Wembanyama, a generational superstar for the San Antonio Spurs, is sidelined for the remainder of the season due to deep vein thrombosis (DVT) in his shoulder. Bill Simmons provides a medical perspective:

"[03:10] Bill Simmons: Yeah. Deep vein thrombosis is their fancy ass term. Dvt. The scary part... it's not that the prognosis is good, but you gotta be on blood thinners..."

The injury not only affects Wembanyama’s promising career but also has significant implications for the Spurs' playoff ambitions and the broader NBA landscape.

II. Impact on the San Antonio Spurs and the NBA

The hosts delve into the ramifications of Wembanyama's absence. Logan Murdoch speculates on the potential end of Chris Paul's mentorship:

"[05:24] Logan Murdoch: Is this the last tutorship he'll get from Chris Paul because is Chris Paul even going to play another season?"

Raja Bell emphasizes the human aspect, hoping for Wembanyama's swift recovery while acknowledging the competitive setback for the Spurs:

"[06:11] Raja Bell: ...we want him to be okay, you want his health to get taken care of... there's a lot of questions in San Antonio..."

Bill Simmons discusses the Spurs' standing in the lottery rankings and the potential for tanking:

"[07:45] Bill Simmons: They're 10th in the lottery rankings right now. So if they do... without Wemby for the next couple of months, which seems likely... there are so many bad teams right now."

The injury also sparks concerns about the Spurs’ future strategy and the possible shadow cast by Coach Gregg Popovich’s ongoing status within the organization.

III. All-Star Weekend Recap: Successes and Setbacks

Transitioning to the All-Star Weekend, the hosts share their personal experiences and critiques of the events. Logan Murdoch recounts sitting next to Michael Pena and observing the festivities:

"[35:20] Logan Murdoch: We had the lovely honor to sit next to Michael Pena... arguing in real life."

Raja Bell offers his perspective on the All-Star Game format and its execution:

"[38:00] Raja Bell: ...the format worked to an extent. Was it torpedoed by too much Kevin Hart and Mr. Beast and a prolonged TNT tribute..."

Bill Simmons criticizes the production quality and the lack of energy in the arena:

"[40:31] Bill Simmons: It was a long TNT tribute that could have been done between games or before the game..."

The discussion highlights issues such as prolonged production segments, lackluster player performances, and missed opportunities for star appearances, notably lamenting the absence of LeBron James in high-profile moments.

IV. Production Issues and Energy Levels

The hosts express frustration with the All-Star Weekend’s production choices, which they believe hindered the overall excitement:

"[43:32] Logan Murdoch: ...who has to prove some shit too. Like it's not his team the way that he thought it was anymore."

Raja Bell comments on the logistical challenges of hosting such events in urban settings like San Francisco:

"[39:16] Raja Bell: ...nobody on record who was saying, I am going to play hard in this format. And then he just disappears."

Bill Simmons emphasizes the lack of crowd engagement and the impact of external entertainment figures overshadowing the basketball festivities:

"[46:23] Bill Simmons: ...he was hooping. But everyone... there were efforts being made that you don't ever see them..."

V. Media Aggregation and Misquotes

A significant portion of the episode addresses the issues surrounding media aggregation and the misrepresentation of comments made by Howard Beck. Bill Simmons vents his frustrations:

"[14:20] Bill Simmons: ...Legion Hoops puts report in all caps report... they dramatize it for their own purposes..."

He clarifies his original intent and the conditional nature of his statements, criticizing the media's tendency to sensationalize:

"[14:27] Bill Simmons: ...this was a really dumb people on social media issue because what happens is that quote, that tweet and listen, they make it dramatic."

Raja Bell echoes the sentiment, highlighting the disconnect between the podcast's discussions and their amplified portrayal on social platforms:

"[15:43] Raja Bell: Goodness gracious. Listen, that's ex. That's exhausting..."

The hosts collectively express concern over the current state of media ecosystems, emphasizing the need for responsible reporting and audience discernment.

VI. NBA Expansion: Risks and Considerations

Howard Beck’s extensive analysis on NBA expansion is a focal point of the episode. Bill Simmons outlines his findings:

"[54:18] Bill Simmons: ...the number of superstars over the last 24 years has not significantly increased... there's a huge expansion in the number of tier three players..."

The discussion centers on whether adding two new teams would dilute the existing talent pool. The hosts reference advanced statistics like Estimated Plus Minus (EPM) to assess player tiers and argue that while there is an abundance of role players, the scarcity of superstars could harm the league’s competitive balance and product quality.

Raja Bell concurs, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a high standard of star power:

"[64:11] Raja Bell: ...people have no idea how good that tier three player Howard is talking about..."

Logan Murdoch adds that superstars not only excel on the court but also drive revenue through marketability, a critical factor that expansion might undermine:

"[65:06] Bill Simmons: ...every star that you have on one team is another team that has possibly zero if there are two or three on one team."

The consensus among the hosts is that while expansion could open new markets and increase revenue streams, it poses significant risks to the league’s overall talent distribution and competitive integrity.

VII. Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

As the episode winds down, the hosts reflect on their interactions during All-Star Weekend, share anecdotes about meeting fans, and reiterate their concerns about media practices and league decisions. Bill Simmons acknowledges the profound support from listeners and encourages engagement with their content:

"[33:04] Bill Simmons: ...it's incredibly gratifying that people care that much about what we do..."

Raja Bell humorously recounts his bout with coughing and his temporary hiatus from drinking, adding a personal touch to the discussion.

The episode concludes with a reminder to listeners to engage with upcoming segments and to visit The Ringer’s website for more in-depth coverage.

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Notable Quotes:

• "This really sucks." — Logan Murdoch [03:10]
• "We want him to be okay, you want his health to get taken care of..." — Raja Bell [06:11]
• "Nobody should be on that platform." — Bill Simmons [15:50]
• "It's just such a sad statement about the state of our media ecosystem..." — Bill Simmons [15:43]
• "Don't aggregate this sometimes..." — Bill Simmons [19:32]
• "Stars are superstars... the charisma at the mic, the flair..." — Raja Bell [62:23]

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This episode of The Ringer NBA Show provides an in-depth analysis of current NBA events, blending professional insights with personal anecdotes. From the unfortunate injury of a rising star to the complexities of All-Star Weekend and the potential ramifications of league expansion, the hosts offer a comprehensive look at the state of the NBA, enriched with candid discussions and expert opinions.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, it's Bill Simmons letting you know that we are covering the White Lotus on the Prestige TV Podcast and the Ringer TV YouTube channel every Sunday night this season with Mali Rubin and Joanna Robinson.

[Logan Murdoch]

Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.

[Bill Simmons]

Subscribe to the prestigious podcast feed, subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel. And don't forget, you can also watch these podcasts on on Spotify. White Lotus. Let's go.

[Raja Bell]

This episode is brought to you by patron 100% additive free tequila. When it comes to ingredients, Patron doesn't need to play games. That's why their tequila is crafted with 100% Weber Blue Agave water and thyme. No sweeteners, no added extracts, no secrets, just 100% additive free tequila. Visit patron tequila.com to learn more.

[Bill Simmons]

The perfect way to enjoy Patron is.

[Raja Bell]

Responsibly Copyright 2025, imported by the Patron Spirits Company Coral Gables, Florida. Tequila 40% alcohol by volume.

[Logan Murdoch]

Daredevil is born again on Disney Plus.

[Raja Bell]

Why did you stop being a vigilante?

[Logan Murdoch]

The line was crossed.

[Raja Bell]

Sometimes peace needs to be broken. Chaos must reign.

[Logan Murdoch]

On March 4th, the nine episode event begins.

[Bill Simmons]

I was raised to believe in grace, but I was also raised to believe in retribution.

[Logan Murdoch]

Marvel Television's Daredevil born again. Don't miss the two episode premiere March 4th only on Disney Plus Pop in the Ruins. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there our back of the cut. It's a Friday edition. I know, I know, I know. We had to have the whole gang back together because hey, we have to recap All Star before we recap All Star. We're gonna talk about Victor women, Yama. We're gonna talk a little expansion. We might talk about some other things that have yet to be determined that me and Howard have talked about a little bit. We don't know if we have enough time to talk about or if it's pertinent enough. But first thing, let's talk about Victor Wimanyama because on the illustrious punchline stage, we all talked about how the spurs were shooing to get into the playing. I think those were Howard Beck's exact words.

[Bill Simmons]

Exact quote from Howard Beck, maybe exaggeration.

[Logan Murdoch]

There's tape there, Howard. It was something along the lines of that you're putting a lot of confidence behind the spurs to make it to the playoffs or make it to the plan. And a lot of that had to do with Victor Wimanyama. A few days later it is announced that he is out for the rest of the season with. I forgot the medical term of this, but it's essentially a blood clot in his shoulder, I believe. Right. That's. That they, that is going to prohibit him from playing the rest of the season. I don't have anything else to say other than this sucks, Howard. This really sucks.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Deep vein thrombosis is their fancy ass term. Dvt. The scary part of this when I first saw it was just that Chris Bosch had a version of this that ended his career. Everything, all the reporting so far is like this is not that the prognosis is good, but you gotta be on blood thinners for a few months when you've got a blood clot and when you're on blood thinners it's, it's not a great idea to be in a contact sport that can cause some other dangers. So. So that's the reason it's 20 or that's the reason it's the rest of the season essentially like the time span you need to be on blood thinners to get rid of the clot basically wipes out the rest of the regular season. But all, all the reporting is that he's going to be fine. So that's good. Let's, let's at least we know that Victor Wembanyama, who's going to be. Should be a generational superstar. He already so far has looked like one in his year and a half in the league. He's going to be fine. The spurs will be fine. But yeah, near term. This sucks. I, I mean yes, I. On the punchline stage in San Francisco last Saturday, I did possibly say that the spurs were going. Were. Did I say a lock of shoeing. I don't know what I said. I thought they'd make the play in and I think this pretty much wipes out any possibility that's of immediate benefit by the way to the Suns who are right ahead of the spurs, both of them chasing the play in. That's a benefit to the Kings and the Mavericks, two teams that I thought were in danger of falling out of the play in. I thought about a few other strands here. One is that, is this, is this the last tutorship he'll get from Chris Paul because is Chris Paul even going to play another season? I don't, I don't know. Maybe this is the end of the Chris Paul mentorship of women. Yama, the Dear and Fox partnership which just began like two weeks ago is Kind of short circuited early. They got years to figure that out, but there's that. And the other thing is that his season ends with 46 games played. So Wembanyama will not be defensive player of the year. He will not be all NBA. He will not be all defensive team. These are all minor things, but it's all relevant and mostly just, just this just kind of sucks for not just the spurs, but for the league and for anybody who's an NBA fan. Wemby is awesome and I can't wait to see him back.

[Logan Murdoch]

Also, another thing before I get to raja, like potentially any chance that he would have not to play under Popovich this season. Right. Or been beyond. We don't know what's going on with Pop right now. I know that's the, that's kind of the elephant in the room in San Antonio and in the league at large. You ask people around the, the league and it's like, Pop's coming back. Maybe he's not. I don't know. Right. It's just this, this shadow that's casted over that organization. There's a lot of questions in San Antonio, Roger, what are your. Oh, and another thing, we said all those things about the Suns. The Suns lost in San Antonio last night, 120 to 109. So yeah, it's not looking great for your sons, Roger. But back to women. Yama, what are your thoughts on the injury and the sadness that comes with it?

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, well, it's an unnecessary dig at the sons. Let's just get that out. Like there was.

[Logan Murdoch]

No, it's not your sons. You don't have anything to do with it.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I mean, obviously whenever there's health related issues, like the first thought goes to just the human being, not the basketball player. Like, you want him to be okay, you want his helped to get taken care of in a way that, that there's no guessing games being being played there as to whether or not he should come back. Like, we want everything to be good. And so that's always where I'm going to go initially. Obviously, you know, for the player for the league, for the, for the, for the franchise, like, that's a huge hit. And I immediately go to like, you know, after all of that, like how many, you know, I was disappointed to see them win last night. Like, I think they're like seven teams that would, would have a better chance. Like how many ping pong balls can we get? Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but like the last time the spurs ran into Two generational type of talents was when. When like, David Robinson went down for a while and they got. They fucked up and found a way to get like Tim Duncan. That's where, like, my immediate mind went, like, all right, he's out. What do you got? Like 23 wins right now. So I started, like, looking around. I mean, the bottom of that east is pretty bad, but, like, that's where my mind went. Like, what. Could there be a silver lining to that if he comes back and everything.

[Logan Murdoch]

Is tank for the rest of the season?

[Raja Bell]

That's what I mean. That's where my mind went. I'm not, I'm not. You know, I know San Antonio isn't necessarily the type of team they came out last night and. And beat, beat the Suns. And so that's not where their mind's at. But you asked what my thoughts were on that. That's kind of where I went.

[Bill Simmons]

They're 10th in the lottery rankings right now. So if they do, you know, if they, if they, if they do really struggle with, without Wemby for the next couple of months, which seems likely. I don't know. Yeah, they could end up. There's so many bad teams right now.

[Logan Murdoch]

And they're going to get worse. Like, this is the time when bad teams just say fuck it, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, the west, too.

[Raja Bell]

What am I saying? The East. The west, yeah, they're. They're. Yeah, there's 13 teams out there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I mean, but the. Listen, the spurs have a chance to be somewhere in the top for the lottery rankings. The top maybe seven or eight. I don't think they're breaking the top six.

[Logan Murdoch]

I do have a tough rating schedule for the rest of the way.

[Bill Simmons]

But teams also leap up. Teams leap up from eight or nine to the top three. It happens. And that's what the lottery is about. So. And the lottery ads are flatter these days, so it's possible.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. Wow. Roger already. You know, I didn't know tanking was in your bloodstream, brother. I didn't know that.

[Raja Bell]

No, no, I'm not advocating for the tank. I'm just saying, like, you, you know, when, when. Look, I mean, when we're looking to.

[Logan Murdoch]

Make the guy who said, anytime I'm on a basketball court, you need to win lemonade.

[Raja Bell]

Lemonade out of lemons here, dude. Like, that's a real thing. You, you got 23 wins. Like you're in a. You know, that's where my mind went. I don't know what the draft looks like. I know some of the names that were at the top. Like, I don't. I don't. I'm not like a draft expert, but that's where my mind went. Right?

[Logan Murdoch]

His mind went towards seeing Cooper flag at Victor Woodman Yamas together. Wow. Yeah, it sucks, man. I don't have any. There's no more analysis that you can give. It's horrible. So also for the fan, me and Howard watch Victor Wimanyama just go balls to the wall in All Star and just the only one trying out there. We'll talk about that in a minute. But it just sucks because it was really fun to watch him play, bro. The lob from Jokic to Wimby. Raja, I really wish you could have got a credential so you could see that. Well, you wouldn't have been there anyway. You went back home on Sunday, but.

[Bill Simmons]

Raj was long gone.

[Logan Murdoch]

Roger was long gone. Let's recap this show. Okay. Let's. Let's. Let's recap this show. Man, I had such a blast. I'm still on a high from. You can check the video version of the pod on YouTube. I put the link in on my ex and my Instagram and, you know, it was just really fun. And you know what's really fun? The funnest thing. The funniest thing. Raja.

[Raja Bell]

No.

[Logan Murdoch]

Our guy Howard Beck, despite his best efforts, and I say that in quotation marks, best efforts not to get aggregated became a storyline onto himself this week.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, you didn't put that out there, boy. You ain't put that out there. Howard. I thought you came home, like, had a change of heart, and I thought you put that out there, had a.

[Logan Murdoch]

Nice cup of joe, just was like, you know what?

[Raja Bell]

It sitting around by the fire, like, you know what?

[Logan Murdoch]

Looking over Brooklyn, greater Manhattan just said, you know what? Fuck it.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll just quote myself from our text chain mother aggregators. Good Lord. I will say this to our friends at Legion Hoops, whatever the hell Legion Hoops is. At least they had the decency to use the full quote. I will give them that. They transcribed it. As far as I can tell, they transcribed it accurately. I don't listen to myself back on the pod, so I'm not going to say word for word, but it looks like word for word, they actually did. They have the whole quote, which. In which I use the phrase, speaking of another GM from another team that somebody out of the blue. Those were my exact words. Somebody out of the blue said, keep an eye on Jaw this summer. And I said, I'm just saying it's one of those things I'm keeping an eye on if they were to flame out early. So there's all kinds of conditional language here out of the blue. If they were to flame out early, I'm keeping an eye on. And again, Legion Hoops to their credit, despite being a trash ass aggregator, at least got the full quote in the tweet. So this is partially a Legion hoops and an aggregator issue. But this is in this case mostly a really dumb people on social media issue because what happens is that quote, that tweet and listen, they make it dramatic. Legion hoops puts report in all caps report. NBA executive believes Grizzlies could potentially look to move John Morritt this summer per Howard Beck. And so they make it sound more dramatic and breaking news ish than it really is. But then people run wild. So if you're one of the people who ran wild with this on Twitter, this is on you. This is on your dumbasses for taking a quote with a ton of conditional language that's just saying, hey, a GM just said keep an eye on this and you're now turning it into John Morant's going to be on the trade block or Ja Morant wants out or the Grizzlies are looking to trade him. None of which I said, none of which I implied. I just said I'm keeping an eye on it because another GM said keep an eye on it. A very benign statement which in the context of our podcast and this was what we we potted for an hour and a half on that stage last Saturday. This was in like probably minute 73 or something of a long pod. Aside from a couple of oohs, maybe in the crowd, like this was not considered any big deal when I said it or by the audience. And by the way, really important thing to note in this media environment we're in, if not for aggregation accounts that put this out there and dramatize it, nobody even notices this, right? Like we have great listeners, we have a ton of listeners, but nobody else was going to like, oh my gosh, did you hear this thing that Auerbach said about John Morant on the Real Ones pod? No, that doesn't happen. It doesn't happen without a dumb ass aggregation account trying to dramatize it for their own purposes to get clicks and followers on a media platform, a social media platform that I myself by the way, do not use any longer. So I'm still on it. I still can see all of the responses and all the reaction and all of the Hysteria. But I'm not participating in it. Didn't want it. And like, this is. This is just such a sad statement about the state of our media ecosystem and also the lack of sophistication and intelligence by a lot of social media users. And, yeah, I'm insulting every single one of you who ran wild with this phenomenal rant. Sorry. Not sorry.

[Raja Bell]

Phenomenal. Phenomenal rant. Phenomenal rant.

[Bill Simmons]

Not sorry.

[Raja Bell]

I didn't even know.

[Bill Simmons]

I will say this.

[Raja Bell]

It was that big of a thing. I didn't even know that.

[Bill Simmons]

I will say this real quick. I am sorry. And I. Stephen, said it quickly in the midst of our pod last Saturday, right after I threw this out there. I said, see? Sorry. Zach Kleiman. Zach Kleiman being the general manager of the Memphis Grizzlies. Zach Kleiman, who, by the way, one of the best team execs in the NBA. They've done an incredible job in Memphis. And I've known Zach a long time, long before he was ever a gm. I do feel bad for Zach because this reached such a frenzy that somebody in Memphis media felt the need to actually ask Zach Kleiman about it. I'm not criticizing the reporter for doing so. I get it. I've been a beat writer in a town, in a city, on a team. 16 years of having any number of things come out that you then have to go to the GM or the team and ask them about. I don't think Zach needed to respond to this personally. I don't think we needed a quote out there that says he's not trading him. I think it extended the story by an extra day or two and made it seem even more dramatic than. Than it was. And it shouldn't have been in the first place. But, yeah, I do. I am sorry, Zach, that you had to feel that you felt the need to have to respond to this at all, because the thing I actually said was not worth anybody having this reaction to, either on social media or at the team level. But it's the world we're in, folks.

[Raja Bell]

Goodness gracious. Listen, that's ex. That's exhausting. I had no idea. I had no idea that was even going on, man.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why nobody should be on that platform.

[Raja Bell]

Oh, my God. I would just say, though, that sitting at dinner by myself in San Francisco, thanks for leaving me, guys, to go to Saturday night All Star. While I sat there, I did call my wife and say, do you know what Howard just said on our pod? You did not.

[Logan Murdoch]

Asshole.

[Raja Bell]

Oh, my God. No. I didn't even know. Yeah, I didn't even know. I thought you were really clear and really delicate about how you. How you said that and very clear about the. The context in which you said that. I had no idea that it turned into the thing that you're saying it turned into. That's crazy.

[Logan Murdoch]

Lolo has a question, and I don't even want. I'm gonna. I'm gonna call. I'm a polarizer, play devil's advocate really, really quickly. And it's not even something that I necessarily believe, but I just feel like this question should be asked and the words of someone on the wire that I forgot. The old days is the old days, right? It's no longer like how when we. When we were. When you were coming up, Howard. And like, in the beginning stages of when I was coming up, right? Like, aggregation is here. It is here. And I look up just a player just to look up their stats, and I see 17 different rumors every time when I look up the news of such player. Right? It is here. It's not going anywhere. Whether it's an aggregation site like the one that you mentioned, or it is the blog that takes this quote and writes a whole diatribe about the quote that you said or just, you know, any. Any number of things that aggregate something that we say on our platform. How do we find some responsibility in that? Right? Because it's not leaving, it's not changing. It's not gonna go anywhere.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the character you were paraphrasing was Cudi, and I think it's when he says the game done changed.

[Logan Murdoch]

Whoa. Whoa. Oh, shit.

[Raja Bell]

The best part of my day.

[Logan Murdoch]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Logan Murdoch]

The tanning of Howard Beck is in full effect. Oh, my God. God.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not even touching that.

[Raja Bell]

You don't. You don't like aggregation, Howard. You go ahead. Touch that, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Go.

[Logan Murdoch]

Wait, another thing. And this is another thing I want to say about aggregation, Howard. When I was. When I was growing up in this business, I prayed that anything that I wrote got aggregated. Why? Because I wanted to give my. My. My. I wanted to get my name out there. I wanted to make sure that, like, people saw me. And I'm not going to say, like, it was 100% evil. And even part of me. And this one thought, like, damn, somebody's listening to our pod. And we're going to get a few more downloads on this thing. Right? I'm not going to lie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

So I, like, I do feel you, because, like, I've been. My s. Has been misquoted and so when I have like a big story or a big quote or something, a lot of those people, especially with the new character limit, will purposely omit my name from the tweet, which is annoying, right? So on some level, like I was like, damn, ruins is popping right now. You know, like we're out here doing it. We're out here being a news cycle, right? It's never that. Like it's. That's how I feel felt. But on the other hand, it is irresponsible. So I do feel like there is a medium that we need to get to where everybody's happy is, I guess, is what I'm saying.

[Bill Simmons]

Listen, if I thought there were any like, you know, like, if I thought there were any benefit to the podcast, at least that would be some sort of silver lining, right? But I don't think there is. I don't think even having my name on. First of all, it didn't say that I said this on the podcast. It just attributed it to me, period. The podcast was not mentioned, so I don't think it's helping our listenership. And even if it were, I would feel dirty about that because I don't. That's not the way I want our podcast or any of my work to be recognized. Not for stuff like that. Dude, I wrote like nearly 4,000 words about expansion. We may get to it later in the pod. I wrote a huge piece about, like, is expansion even a good idea? Will there be talent dilution? I talked to a gazillion people. I spent weeks on this. I busted my ass All Star weekend to finish this story up. Whatever. I would rather people talk about the 4,000 word, well researched, I think, well written, put together story that I did that I'm proud of than about some stupid throwaway line in the middle of a 90 minute live show, before which we had two tequila shots.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like, there's fantastic tequila shots, by the way. Shout out to the punchline.

[Bill Simmons]

Shout out to the punchline. Like there's, there's the stuff we do that matters and then there's the stuff that is just discussion, right? I'm not saying the podcast doesn't matter, but like there, there are levels to, to how I value the things I do and how I want it recognized now. Also way, if I had an actual scoop, this was not a quote unquote scoop. This was not cap all caps report. If I had somebody telling me, do not aggregate this. This is a hypothetical, people. A hypothetical is when we talk about something that may or may not Happen. And we're just using as an example, do not aggregate. If I had talked to a bunch of people who said absolutely positively, player X is getting traded this summer. And I reported that and it got aggregated and we got a bunch of attention for it. Cool, great. I did a bunch of reporting that mattered, that was substantive. That's not the same as me saying, hey, guys, after Luca got traded, I talked to a bunch of GMs and I asked like, who's next? Who else are you keeping an eye on stars that might move? Because that's the, that's the name of the NBA in, in this era is who's getting moved next? Who are, who are front offices scheming for? Who do they have a. Who do they have an eye on? Who are they saving all their trade assets for? Those are questions we ask. And somebody out of the blue, as I said, mentioned jaw and I, and I mentioned it. That's not the same as a report. That's not the same as saying, you know, multiple sources say this thing is going to happen. It's just, it's scuttlebutt. And the inability of people to separate the scuttlebutt from a quote unquote report or from, you know, potential actual news is the real problem here. But Logan, like, you make a good point. We, this is the ecosystem we're in and I and everybody else have to be mindful of it. That is why we say things like, don't aggregate this sometimes, sometimes tongue in cheek, sometimes very seriously. Does it mean that I should not put scuttlebutt out there? That I shouldn't mention something in the 72nd minute of a 90 minute podcast? Because that something that I pass along to our listeners simply as, hey, here's something I heard. This is interesting. Do I have to now worry about that, that going viral and, and making the Grizzlies uncomfortable and making Zach Climan have to respond to it like, yeah, that part of it sucks. But it also sucks to have to think that we should not be able to, you know, discuss things openly on the pod for fear of it being distorted or exaggerated and turned into something else. Like, that part sucks. But, yeah, I, I will think twice about saying that next time. But our listeners want to hear the intel as we hear it, even if something doesn't come to pass. By the way, in the past, I've mentioned, like, teams have their eye on Giannis. This has happened. We've had multiple cycles of this. We're in another one of those cycles by the way. I think I even mentioned Giannis last weekend, and they didn't.

[Logan Murdoch]

They didn't say that part. People don't care about the Giannis rumors because it's like it's the same one every.

[Bill Simmons]

Exactly. The John name was new, but the Giannis thing is. Is almost. You know, every couple of years we're in a new Yanis, keep an eye on cycle. I said it about Jimmy Butler last year. It took a while. That happened. I've said it about Donovan Mitchell a couple years ago. Eventually that happened. I'm not saying, like, I'm a genius. I'm saying, like, when we talk to GMs around the league and assistant GMs and others, they sometimes will say, you know, hey, this is what we're hearing, or this is what we're keeping our eye on. And part of our job is to then convey that to our listeners.

[Logan Murdoch]

Also, sometimes those things happen. The news cycle is very fluid. Like, there's been. I'm not even going to say the player's name because, you know, like, I'm learning from how I was mistaken. I was playing. I heard a player was, like, getting traded maybe a year and a half ago. Right. And, like, this summer, they're getting traded. Didn't happen till this deadline. Because why, if somebody's. If they. If a team has. I'm just saying, hypothetical, a team has urges to trade a player, maybe the deal isn't there, you know? Right. Like, maybe the. Just the timing didn't work out. Like. And that's just one example of how fluid things can go, right, from one time to another. But, oh, before we get to, like, our actual All Star things, because I want to see what Raja did, can.

[Bill Simmons]

I put one quick finishing note on the John Moran thing?

[Logan Murdoch]

Yes, please.

[Bill Simmons]

Because you mentioned the platform on which it was viral. You know where. It was not viral. It was not viral on Blue Sky. There wasn't a single mention of this John Morant. Non.

[Logan Murdoch]

Check for. Cut the check for Howard, please. Just give him the percentage.

[Bill Simmons]

I would take a T shirt. Is there a Blue Sky T shirt? They got this pretty blue butterfly as kind of like their logo. I would love that. No, seriously, though, because there are no aggregation accounts on Blue Sky. There's a lot less nonsense on Blue Sky. This did not become a story on Blue Sky. It was only a story on the platform formerly known as Twitter. Because of the aggregation accounts and because of how much nonsense and bad faith actors there are there. Just noting. Just noting.

[Logan Murdoch]

It's not a plug. It's a lifestyle. Truth, Howard, did you get any, like, did anybody call you? Like, what the fuck? Did you get any block numbers calling you about that? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

No. Not a single call. Not a single text.

[Logan Murdoch]

Ooh, wow. Take with that what you will, listeners.

[Bill Simmons]

People who don't know who.

[Logan Murdoch]

Raja.

[Raja Bell]

What up?

[Logan Murdoch]

The Pied Piper of San Francisco. We didn't even see. We saw you, and then we didn't. I wish you got a credential so we could all hang and watch the boring ass duck contest and three point shootout together. Maybe we could have caught up, but we didn't. You just disappeared. You walked into the. Me and. Me and Howard got an Uber, and then you walked into the distance, never to be seen again. What the hell did you do in San Francisco? What was your experience like, coming on the West Coast?

[Raja Bell]

I would have enjoyed you all's company. Probably. I would not have liked being in the building for that. For any of those events. I don't. That's just not my cup of tea. Where did I go?

[Logan Murdoch]

I walked, buddy.

[Raja Bell]

I walked with your mom for a minute. Like, we shared a stroll until we parted ways. And then. And then there was like a parade. Was it the. The Chinese New Year? The lunar. The lunar New Year.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

And so I was. I was in what looked like Chinatown at that point, Right? Am I crazy?

[Logan Murdoch]

No, I think that's around. You were walking.

[Raja Bell]

That was right there. I think I was there and that was pretty cool. Like, everybody was out, you know, they were. They were praise coming through there.

[Logan Murdoch]

It was popping.

[Raja Bell]

It was popping. So I decided because of that, like the Uber, it's like, I don't know, a 20 minute walk and like a 25 minute Uber ride. Right? Which I.

[Logan Murdoch]

We got up in that. We've got up with that decision making.

[Raja Bell]

I'm like, I'm gonna walk. But what I didn't factor in was how the whole walk was uphill. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

I told you that, Raja. I told you that. That all walks are created equal.

[Raja Bell]

Well, yeah, but like, from where we were standing, like at the bottom, it looked like really, like a slight. You know, it was so slight that I couldn't tell. But then I made that left and I'm like, oh. And so, like, it was a. It's a pretty. Pretty beefy walk. I had to walk back to the hotel, but I. I had fun. A lot of cool sites to see and stuff like that. And then. And yes, I mean, I didn't get to see much of San Fran dog. Like, that's why I don't like those weekends. Because there's so much going on. You don't like.

[Logan Murdoch]

Did you hit a restaurant? Do you want to plug a restaurant that you went to? That was.

[Raja Bell]

No, not particularly. It wasn't very good.

[Logan Murdoch]

Oh, okay. Sorry. I tried. I just want to say I was trying to be a good friend and, like, show. Show him a place. And he was like, you know what? I'm just.

[Bill Simmons]

Fucking walk.

[Logan Murdoch]

Let's fucking walk.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, it was. Well, because, look, because of the congestion again, I would have usually, like, looked up somewhere that I really wanted to try that was in a city. But, like, you couldn't get to anything, so. So then I was like, I'll just go to something close to the hotel. I was kind of fried anyway. And, yeah, it just did it. It didn't work out great.

[Logan Murdoch]

I just want to say your uncle is the coolest man of all time that I've ever seen. He had, like, some snakeskin boots on, like a Gucci belt. It's like a Gucci. He just like, Gucci out, but, like. But, like, very classy.

[Raja Bell]

That's my Uncle Dave, man. Uncle Dave is a real one. For real.

[Logan Murdoch]

He can't fly. They don't make him like him no more. He can't fly.

[Raja Bell]

Well, they wanted to take me to dinner, but they were going back. They were going to dinner, like, back across the bridge. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not going. I'm not going back that way. I'm too close to the hotel. I can't go back that way.

[Logan Murdoch]

Me and Howard got. We made the mistake. We made the mistake that you were going to make. We took the. We took an Uber, tried to take an Uber to chase from. From the punchline. And when a muni was right there, and I. And knew, and I. And I said, like, hey, let's just go take immunity, actually.

[Raja Bell]

Well, that was the plan. That's what you told. That's what you said. That's what you guys told me.

[Logan Murdoch]

We lied to ourselves. We're like, you know, we' a Uber it.

[Bill Simmons]

Logan changed it up at the last minute. Well, the problem. The problem is that Uber lies, right? The, like, the. The. All the, like, car sharing apps lie. It's like Your ride is two minutes away, and it'll take you 15 minutes to get there. And it was like, no, the. Our car was like, 15 minutes away, and the ride took an hour. And we shouldn't. And we should have known. I think the only thing it cost us, Logan, I think the only thing we really missed was Chris Paul trying to Cheat at the skills competition. Because by the time we got there, not that I would have watched anyway because that's always been the worst of the Saturday night events and the one that's easiest to skip. But it wasn't until later that a buddy of mine who had been around some NBA people, he's like, hey man, I was just about around a bunch of NBA people, they're really pissed about what Chris Paul did. I go, what? What Chris Paul do? It's like he tried to game the skills competition. Like, oh, you gotta be kidding me.

[Raja Bell]

That's kind of on brand though, for.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, that's what I told Howard. I was like, this is. If anybody was going to do it, be Chris too. Try to, you know.

[Raja Bell]

You know what did throw me a little bit though. Sorry to interrupt you. It's been a while since I've lived on that coast. It's just, you know, I'm looking at at time trying to figure out when I need to get back to the room to kind of catch the three point shootout in the dunk competition. And not factoring in at all that I'm not looking at like 8:00 Eastern. So do you know what I mean?

[Logan Murdoch]

Like five happen right there.

[Raja Bell]

So I missed all that too. I walked in right as a three point like competition started and I'm like, oh shit, it's already on.

[Logan Murdoch]

You know what you did, Ms. Raja shout out to auntie on the corner over there on 3rd Street, a few blocks away from Chase. That was, that was selling Hennessy and John Julio shots.

[Raja Bell]

Oh yeah. I mean, because I was already two sheets to the win like you were.

[Logan Murdoch]

And then he had a bro. Raja was out here, dog. Roger was having so much fun during the show. He got, he had, he begrudgingly, and I say this with quotes, air quotes, begrudgingly. Took two shots of tequila and then was like before we went to go hang out with the fans. Let me get a beer. Let me get a fucking beer. So all the homies. Razzie was cool with all the homies that came.

[Raja Bell]

All right, here's the backstage. Remember I was on the pod, was it two weeks ago, and I couldn't stop coughing like I had the flu and, and all of that. So like I rolled that right into like, I'm gonna stop drinking for a little while. Like I'm just gonna stop my like nightly wine or, or whatever I have. And so I was like two and a half weeks pretty dry. And then, then, then obviously I roll up on YouTube and I rebuffed the first attempt at getting the shot. But the peer pressure was so much.

[Logan Murdoch]

That and also seeing Howard nervous in the corner.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I relented. And once I had the two, I was like, fucking Frank the Tank in old school. Like, once it touches your lips, it's so good. We were just rolling.

[Logan Murdoch]

We were ready to go. All the homies loved you. All the homies from the crib loved you, Roger.

[Raja Bell]

It was good times.

[Bill Simmons]

That was. That was an incredible day. Can we just say that was an incredible day. Everybody who came out, thank you again. It was just so cool having our. Our listeners right there in front of us. I've been describing it this way, right? Like, Logan and I have written a gazillion stories. We've all three of us have all done all these podcasts. We've all done all this stuff, and you do it kind of in a vacuum. Here we are sitting looking at each other over Riverside on a computer screen. It's being recorded. Our buddy Eddie Ocampo is getting it all done. He'll. He'll send it out there into the world and then. And that's it. This is not a transactional relationship you have with your listeners. Occasionally they hit you on social media or email or whatever. But having an audience there with immediate feedback and then us finishing and doing a meet and greet outside and. And so many people coming up, sticking around for like 45 minutes an hour afterward to take photos with us, ask for autographs. I've never signed so many autographs in my life. I didn't even know Howard. I didn't know.

[Logan Murdoch]

Very good at signing autographs. I didn't even know you had an autograph, dude.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't even remember how to sign my signature. We don't do sign checks anymore. Right. Like, but that was awesome. Like, it's. I mean, clearly huge ego boost. Thank you, folks, for that. I. My self esteem needs it, but it's just. It's just really gratifying that people care that much about what we do, that they pay good money to come out on a Saturday and hang out with us, that they want to stand in line and meet us afterward like that. That's just. It's incredibly cool and incredibly gratifying. So thank you again to everybody who came out. Get the Angel REEF special at McDonald's.

[Raja Bell]

Now, let's break it down. My favorite barbecue sauce, American cheese, crispy bacon, pickles, onions, and a sesame seed bun, of course. And don't forget the fries and the drinks. Sound good.

[Bill Simmons]

I participate in restaurants for a limited time Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Raja Bell]

With a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for.

[Raja Bell]

3 month plan equivalent to $15 per.

[Bill Simmons]

Month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

[Raja Bell]

Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn.

[Bill Simmons]

You'Ll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be, to be.

[Logan Murdoch]

Before we get to the next segment, grades on All Star. I want to start. We had the. Me and Howard had the lovely honor to sit next to Michael Pena during the festivities on Sunday. And I got a, a preview of just every podcast that Michael Pena and Howard Beck have ever done. They do that shit in real life. They argue in real life.

[Bill Simmons]

Logan's sitting between us, Peanut and I go at it like we don't agree on. Basically, like any. Like, if the middle.

[Logan Murdoch]

I don't care. I really don't give a fuck.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, but we're having to argue across you. Logan was pretty amused. But, but like, dude, if the sky's blue. And I go, yeah, really nice day. Pete will be like shaking his head. What are you talking about? This guy's not blue. It's not a nice day. What are you talking. I don't even know. Are we even watching the same sky?

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, yeah, Logan got it live. I got that live. But the funny part was I don't know because I didn't read a story yet, but I saw that the winner in his. In Michael Pena's win or loser column on ringer that you guys should all read that I'm going to read after this. Basically, he had winner, new All Star weekend format. And then by the end, you could see him just mulling his decision and just. And Howard defending his decision. His, his, his decision to defend the new All Star format because God damn, that Was a long time, Raj. I'm really glad you, if you watched it at all, had to watch that from the crib, bro. It was just drawn out. The game itself was cool. Like, it was fine. But the nostalgia, I mean, I'm gonna just say it, bro. Like, that shit was weak compared to, like, just even a game. I would have been cool to just watch an actual game. Then the three times. And you had Kevin Hart in there saying lame ass jokes. And I don't want him to hear this because we'll get aggregated. He'll roast.

[Raja Bell]

I was gonna say, bro, you're. Hey, welcome back to aggregation on me.

[Logan Murdoch]

I know, I know. But, like, it got to the point where even Shay was like, please just let us play basketball. Because you could hear his jokes in the stands and they were stopping the game so he could get jokes off. And then they had the Turner, like, marathon of a tribute, which I am okay with because I love Turner. I mean, I have been an employee of Turner. Howard has been an employee of Turner. Like, we're all for the Turner stuff, but, like in the middle of a random timeout, they went for like a 30 minute stretch of just, we're going to pat ourselves on the back. And then also from the outside. It took so long to get anywhere in the city during that time. I was so happy to see you motherfuckers just up out of the bay, bro. I'm not going to lie to you. I was really happy to see like, just the influx of people go home because it was just, it was really hard to maneuver. And the city, I don't know if it's. If San Francisco in this format is made for All Star. I'm just going to say that. And it was really tough to get.

[Raja Bell]

Around no city, no city is made for that. Every city I've been to. And I actually applauded San Fran a little bit because my experience coming in there, being able to get the cat, being able to get the Uber and the rides that were coming into San Fran and going back to the airport were very. They were unusually uncongested for an All Star Weekend. But like, once you got down in it, once you get in the heart of the city, like, no city is really made, made for that. Like, that's the biggest turn off for me about All Star Weekend. It's logistically, if you're not staying in the hotel that's like adjacent to where you need to be, like, how long is it taking to get to anything? And that's a. I mean, for Some people. That's not a thing for me. It's a thing. I. I would. Watching the All Star, I. I sent out. I. I tweeted one of my rare tweets. That doesn't include, like, retweeting one of my kids stuff is. I said something about the, The. The All Star Game itself. I actually, when they let them play, when it was. When they were hooping, I saw a much, much different product in terms of competition across the board. Now, I know. I know that Wemby might have been like, the leader because Wemby was out there like.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like he was dog tired after that game because nobody else was trying.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He also found out he had blood clots afterward, but he said that it actually had, like. That's part of the reporting, is that he'd been feeling some fatigue. So that'll tell you something, too.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, that's. That's wild. But, like, he was hooping. But everyone. Like, there were efforts being made that you don't ever. You don't see them. I mean, you rarely see them in All Star games. So I thought that they had actually kind of. They were a little bit on to something in terms of. Of the format. Now, what I couldn't tell whether was whether or not, like, these were just guys saying, hey, we're choosing to play harder in this, or if it was the actual format that kind of was the. Was the, you know, the reason that they felt the need to do that. But I think anyone watching that would say, hey, guys, were competing in a way that you don't normally see. Having said that, the production, that was the whole weekend and all of the shit around, all the competitions and all of the dead time watching, it was brutal. And it was like. It was brutal. And like, everybody. They put on the mic. Look, I couldn't tell if people in the arena were cheering and stuff like that, because if they are, I think you need to include that in. In the broadcast because it came off, like, dry and stale and it was just. That shit was hard to watch.

[Logan Murdoch]

Howard, didn't you say that, like. Cause I. It was only like, my real, first real All Star experience. I went to Salt Lake, but I went home after all Sunday morning. But, like, there wasn't that much energy in Chase all weekend at all. No, it wasn't sold out. Like, there were still a lot of empty seats for the All Star Game itself and for the Saturday festivities.

[Bill Simmons]

No, dude, Saturday night. Remember? That was the first thing I said to you. We settled in our seats in time for, like, Three point competition and dunk contest and I kept looking around thinking like it's going to fill up at some point and it's, you know, it's hard to remember year to year, so still stipulate that. But at that looked like in my memory, I, I couldn't remember a time when there were that many empty seats at All Star Weekend. And that was specifically Saturday night. Sunday filled in a little bit better than sun than Saturday, but Saturday there was a ton of empty seats and no life in that arena. Now when Mack McClung jumped over a car and anytime Mack McClung did anything, there was some, some energy. There was certainly some energy. I hate to say it, I hate to say it because please eject Mr. Beast into the sun. But when the Mr. Beast thing happened and the, the, the guy made the three finally, by the way, Dame was absolutely like missing those shots. We just acknowledge that. But when the guy finally hit the shot to win $100,000, yeah, the crowd went nuts for that. But the energy in the building overall over the weekend, I didn't think was that great. I'm not, that's not an indictment of San Francisco or the Bay Area crowd. That is every All Star, every All Star Weekend, the arena is kind of dead compared to normal games. Partially because it's just All Star Weekend and partially because it's a lot of like, just corporate people. It's not, you know, the hardcore NBA fans. So like you can't expect a ton of energy. But I'm glad Raja said it because I feel like I'm on an island here. The tournament Sunday, the format worked to an extent. Was it torpedoed by too much Kevin Hart and Mr. Beast and a prolonged TNT tribute that could have been done between games or before the game instead of during a game? Like so much of the production, you know, apologies to my, my friends at Turner, but like so much of the production of the weekend was working against the events themselves and just, just, just robbing it of, of all of the momentum and the energy and that part sucks. And I think a lot of the complaints I heard from people after the weekend had at least as much or more to do with like the timing and production and other stuff than about the events themselves. And the thing is like the first two games in the tournament, the championship game, got bogged down because of that, that long TNT tribute. But the first two games, like there was definitely more energy. There were guys were definitely trying harder. And I think having a Target score works. I think not having a 48 minute slog prolonged over three hours actually can work. And if they just got a lot of the fluff out of there, it could go faster too. And like take what, you take what you saw on Sunday and just streamline it a little bit and you'd have something, I think.

[Logan Murdoch]

And then also.

[Raja Bell]

My bad, my bad. Those, those games, the way, I don't know how you do it because I know there's so much of a, of a, of a slot that you have to fill in terms of time on a broadcast and people have paid for it and they're advertising. Like I get it right? So I don't have the answer. Like I'm, that's not my field of expertise. But as far as the product, the games that should have been run to some degree like a, like a pickup scenario where, you know, you're, you're hooping and then the next two teams are coming on. We're doing like 10 minute warmup, my dude. Next two teams are coming on and then we're playing. And then if you want to do something in between, like the, the, the, the, the two, like, you know, semifinal games, if you will, or the first round of games and you want to, you want to sandwich, like, I don't know, 45 minutes in there, do that, I don't care. Then let them come back out and warm up for 15 minutes and then just let them rock for the final game. But like, you don't need that much time in between games. Even if you wanted to run it. If guys are playing to 40, if you wanted to run the two games and then go right into the third game, like, dudes would be, dudes would be fine for that. That's easy. That's easy money.

[Logan Murdoch]

With 15 minutes also, there was no buy in from, you know, LeBron James, the biggest star, which. Oh, that sucked. That sucked. That was a gut wrench. That press conference was so gut wrenching, man. Like just on a lot of levels. For him to just casually say, yeah, I'm not playing right now, I'm not going to play this game. And then you have Anthony Edwards. Where the hell did he go? We're asking about what happened with Amen Thompson, how he appeared, how did Anthony Edwards disappear, right? You have your biggest star and then you have your biggest up and coming guy. One of the guys on record who was saying, I am going to play hard in this format. And then he just disappears. He gets his flowers, he gets announced and then we don't even see him. That also was bogged down a lot of things because also, people were really excited to see both of those guys play. Also, we missed an opportunity to see LeBron, Steph and KD play on the same team, which robbed the fans of this thing. And then you see LeBron play a back to back right after.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, that's tough. That's the tough look.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like, come on, man, stop saying you care about the fans and then you do some like that.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, listen, he's 40 years old. He's got a bazillion miles on him. He's played more than anybody in the history of the game. So I get it if you want to preserve yourself for the back to back that your team has upcoming. And a back to back, by the way, that was only necessary because the LA Wildfires had canceled that game or postponed that game with the Hornets, so they had to plug it in on Wednesday night. Normally there are no games on Wednesday night after All Star Weekend. I would say that's. I'm fine with all that, but LeBron could have still made like a cameo. At least put your jersey on, don't be in street clothes.

[Logan Murdoch]

Kobe broke his fucking his finger in 08, I think it was. And he did one possession, suited up, did all the things, did one possession, threw a pass with his left hand and was like, okay, I'm out. Just for the fan.

[Bill Simmons]

He could have just made the cameo so that we get that moment with him and Steph and kd, right? Get one possession where all three of those guys touch the ball, set each other up for an alley oop or something, right? Like, that could have been fun. And it might have been the last time we had or last chance we had to see those three guys together.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was a miss. And I just, you know, generally speaking. Well, I know we've said this before. It's. It's tough look. And again, I enjoyed that. Like, at least without. Without factoring in the. All the dead air time and all of that. I kind of. I kind of liked watching them compete a little bit. It's just not a great look for the NBA when Mack McClung is like the biggest story coming out. And I love Mack McClun. Like, I'm. I support that 100%. Like, I'm all for it. And I'm. I'm looking at these dudes in the NBA talk about. I heard some guys on TV the other day talking about NBA dudes need to get involved and there's some dudes out there that would give him a run for his money. But don't get that twisted. Like those dunks he's doing are going to stand up against anybody that's competing against him.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, yeah. J. Yeah. No, no, no. Zach lavine.

[Raja Bell]

No, there's some, there's some boys that could really go and they'll give him a run for their money.

[Logan Murdoch]

His imagination was crazy during those things, man. That was nuts. I'm sorry.

[Raja Bell]

Like, it's just not a great look with the NBA. The story is a G League guy. It's just not great when, when we.

[Bill Simmons]

Start talking about like what they, what we saw over the weekend and where it leads next, like for next year. Okay, maybe they can build off the tournament format, streamline it like I was saying. And maybe that still works, right? Like, maybe they've, maybe they're onto something there. But on the Saturday stuff, the dunk contest, like you've, the dunk contest has been on life Support and Mac McClung is, is like the artificial lung man. He's the one keeping it alive the last three years in a row. He's not going to do it a fourth time, I don't think. I don't want to speak for Mac McClung. I don't know. But nobody does it four years in a row. So without him, without effectively a G league player winning it three years in a row, where's the dunk contest? What else? Stefan Castle had some good ones. But like nothing that you were going to like, say. Like that was an all timer and nobody else did anything memorable. So where does that leave the contest for next year? Unless John Morant who tweeted saying, I'm going to. Maybe I'll do it now. And then Giannis said, well, if you do it, I'll do it. Like put your money where your mouth is. Guys.

[Raja Bell]

Like, nobody want to see, don't nobody want to see Yannis. And no dunk competition.

[Bill Simmons]

Why not?

[Logan Murdoch]

Stop.

[Raja Bell]

But yeah, too tall, too like too gangly. That's not good. That's not going to look great.

[Bill Simmons]

I know we like to short. We like the shorter guys. Duncan. That's, that's, that's true. Like, but, but dude, just having some star power in it, right? Like having, having two marquee names and if they do it, then maybe other guys decide to jump into Raja. Like I, I just, we, we need to get some sizzle back in this thing. It's partially about the creativity of the dunks and it's partially about having some, some, some names back in. Instead of a G league player, two rookies and a Second year guy, Mo, you know, none of whom are really household names.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, no, I agree. I agree with that. I just, I just. The Giannis is going to be so kind of gangly out there. Like, I don't. I don't know that. But, but, but if you had Ja. If you had Zach Levine, who I saw put something back out there, like, if you had like Anthony Edwards, like, you know, those are guys that are.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

You know, fit. They fit the side profile and they. And, and they're so athletic and they're so above the rim that. That would be crazy. The only thing I would say about the Mac thing is most guys don't do it four years in a row because, like, they're mainstay NBA stars.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like, per game.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah. So, like, that's his bread and butter in a way that, like, sure, you. He might break the mold and be like, yo, man, I'm trying to win my fourth in a row, you know?

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. Let's talk about one other thing. We're going to do the real ones mailbag Gmail.com real ones mailbag Gmail.com Real ones mailbag Gmail.com next week. That's going to happen next week. So. But I do want to talk about real quick before we got to go expansion in the NBA. This is expansion week at the ringer. There's been a lot of great pieces, really, Like Katie Bates piece on expansion. There was a good piece from Peanut had one.

[Bill Simmons]

Zach Cram had one.

[Logan Murdoch]

I was going to say Zach Cram. No, I was going to say Zach Cram because that was the one that really stuck out to me, how to make a successful expansion team. Pena had one as well.

[Raja Bell]

Timeout.

[Logan Murdoch]

Danny Chow had one. On the, On Roger. Charlotte Bobcats. What's up, Roger?

[Raja Bell]

Because I thought for sure we were going to come in here and talk about the Charlotte Bobcats. Like, we was going to talk about the Lakers coming out and losing to the, to the Charlotte Hornets. Like, I thought.

[Logan Murdoch]

I thought for sure.

[Raja Bell]

Like, I thought there was no chance we weren't gonna come on here and talk about that. But. And I don't.

[Logan Murdoch]

I mean, one of the complaints that we get is that we talk about the Lakers too much. So we don't talk about.

[Bill Simmons]

And we don't talk about the Bobcats enough.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, we don't talk about the Bobcats.

[Raja Bell]

Well, there you go.

[Logan Murdoch]

All right.

[Raja Bell]

Now I'm right. Go ahead. I just want to throw a little, like, you know, I think that's, that's. I'm just fascinated with that bro like you, how you gonna have a man over there? You gonna trade for the man? If, if you traded, if you. How about this? How about this? If you traded for Luca to do what Luca is doing now, I albeit he's out of shape and he's injured again, right? Like, but, but like, let's say, let's say he was in shape and that's the vision that the Lakers have for what they're going to look like as a team. If that's what you traded for him to do, then you did not win that trade. You, if you're going to have him standing over there watching and just being like a once in a while, like, I'll go get mine after somebody else. Like, if that's not who he is. No, that's not what made him so brilliant in Dallas. And I'm taking nothing away from the player because I know what he can do. But if you're going to, if, if you think that it's going to be. He go, I go. He go, I go. And Luke is just going to stand over there and be like used sometimes. Like, that's not. Then you did not. Like, it's, well, it's just not what everyone made it out to be, I guess. Would my, would be my point, right? Like, everyone was like, landslide. If, but if you're going to marginalize him by standing him over there, then, then, then, then you can't sell me on that.

[Bill Simmons]

Aggregate that.

[Raja Bell]

No, but that's, yeah, I don't give a fuck if you aggregate it. I'm telling you, if he, if he's not going to have a ball in his hands. And look, this was always going to be a problem, right? As I saw it, like who was going to have the ball? At what point in the careers are we at? But he is not. Look, some people are too good to be used in a stand in the corner role. I was just good enough to be used in a stand in the corner role. That dude is one of the best players in the world with the ball in his hands. If you're not going to use him as such, then what, what are you doing?

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. Hey, Howard, anytime that you should just take Raj's approach to getting aggregated. I don't give a fuck. I don't give a fuck. I don't care. Damn, look at me aggregate that shit. I don't give a fuck.

[Raja Bell]

Nah, but I really mean that. Like, that's a crazy, that's a crazy me watching them play.

[Bill Simmons]

I just think that, like we have to so, people, overall, Star Weekend, one of the things that somebody noted to me was just like, how shell shocked Luca looked, not just in his press conference, but even in his first couple games of the Lakers, he just. He didn't look like him. And, yeah, couple months off or six weeks off, whatever, with the injury, not in shape, partially because of the injury, partially because. Because he's. Luca. Trying to figure out how to revolve around the. The satellite. You know, the. The being a satellite around LeBron, like LeBron. Everybody has to adjust to LeBron now. LeBron at 40, it's. It should be different. But we talked about this. Like, LeBron and Wade had to figure each other out when they first started playing together. And maybe Luke is still in that. That phase of trying to figure out how to do this. I mean, listen, the. The truth is, Raja, like, they didn't trade for him to win a championship this year. They. They traded for him because, one, the Mavericks decided to stupidly give him away. But two, you. You've got him for the next 10 years, and. And LeBron's not going to be here for most of that. So. But, yeah, like, I, you know, as you guys know, like, I.

[Raja Bell]

My.

[Bill Simmons]

My first reaction to the trade was like, I think both teams in the short term are worse because they've got holes to fill and. And just a lot of adjustments to make. So.

[Raja Bell]

No, and. And. And that's a very. That's a very good point. But, like, I. I guess we're operating. What I'm discounting is, like, if you get an opportunity to take a swing at something like Luca, you. You might even acknowledge that right now this is going to be very difficult, but we just can't miss on an opportunity to get him. So we'll just. And maybe it was something like that, but, like, I, you know, I just. The inner workings of something like that, like, when you're trying to bring a piece like that over to your team. If we lived in a world like this is a psychology experiment, it always is with me. Like, I'm watching. If this is a world in which we're ready to pass that baton to Luka, you would see that. You would see them being like, take the ball.

[Bill Simmons]

Go.

[Raja Bell]

You go, you go. Even if he was bad, they'd be like, yo, go. Keep going, keep going, keep going. You don't see that. So then. So now I'm like, all right. But LeBron looks better than he has looked.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like, he said, like, no Star weekend off.

[Raja Bell]

But, like, But. But also saying, like, man, fuck Y'all, like, this is my shit.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. And I feel like there might be a power struggle on the horizon. Me and Howard and you have also talked about this, about the power struggle on the horizon between LeBron and this whatever version of Lakers is on the horizon. Right. Like, he gotta prove some shit too. Like it's not his team the way that he thought it was anymore. They're going to, towards the future. And he's like, fuck that. I will be rejuvenated too.

[Raja Bell]

No, but that's what I'm saying. But like right now, like, I mean, the team, the, the organization can make whatever deal they want if that ball is still in, in a 40 year old LeBron James hand all the time. And he's doing what he's doing at 40 years old, which is incredible too. It's not as easy as saying like, we're going, oh, we're. You just have a, you just got like a little bit of a, a, a, a sticky situation on your hands.

[Logan Murdoch]

Because a bit of a conundrum.

[Raja Bell]

Again, I've been on teams, you get a new piece. That piece is supposed to be an all world type of like, give him the ball. We know how Luca plays. Like, we've all seen how Luca plays. Nobody on the Lakers is naive to how Luca plays. Like, if you're really like, you want to give him and get him into that flow as quick as possible, like, you're not going to reinvent the wheel with him by like changing his game at this point. And I just find that fascinating. Like, it's really early and I know there are a lot of factors involved with his health, like his, his, his shape and all those things that have to work themselves out like, and so it'll probably be fine. But it's been fascinating to watch him play a couple games and see the way they're using him.

[Logan Murdoch]

All right, we probably got.

[Raja Bell]

Sorry, go ahead. Sorry.

[Logan Murdoch]

Seven to ten more minutes. About expansion. Howard had a great piece about expansion, the 4,000 word piece that he referenced. It might not have gotten aggregated at the level of your. Whatever you said on the punchline, but it did lead Tom Zilla's newsletter, which, I mean, geez, I'll take that any day of the week. Damn it. The streets loved it.

[Bill Simmons]

Who's Tom Ziller?

[Logan Murdoch]

Who the fuck is Renee Zell? Wedger. Tom Ziller has. Good morning. It's Basketball, one of the preeminent basketball newsletters in the country.

[Raja Bell]

Okay, okay, Good, good. No disrespect, Tom. I wasn't trying to be funny. I just don't, you know.

[Logan Murdoch]

Oh, so good. But anyway, Howard's piece led that went against the pros and the cons of expansion in the league brought up some really good points, some great data points about why expansion may not be that good for the league. Just that we do have an abundance of talent. But if we add two more extra teams that could dilute such talent. I don't want to say too much. Howard, explain the story.

[Bill Simmons]

So first of all, Everybody go to theringer.com, go check out all the expansion week stuff because we had a bunch, bunch of awesome stories and and the group chat guys on this very same NBA show channel, they did a mock draft yesterday that's up now where they attempted to be the expansion teams and I haven't listened to the results yet. I'm going to do that later today. But I'm going to assume that if you listen to it, you're going to hear it and you're going to wince and you're going to think like, oh, that's a, that's a new team. That starting five, that roster, that lineup. All due respect to Raja Bell and his Bobcats back in the day, but it's like this is the thing, it's tough. So the story I did my feeling all along has been with expansion, like, okay, I get it. There is more talent than there's ever been, right? The game is international. A quarter of the NBA is from outside the us There is more talent than ever. But is there enough talent to support two new teams? And by one way of looking at this, and I enlisted Taylor Snar. He is the, the man behind the brains behind Dunks and Threes dot com. Great website. Go check that out. Dunks and threes. Three is spelled out. He has an all in one advanced stat called EPM estimated plus minus and it factors in a lot of stuff. And all the analytics folks around the league will tell you like EPM among the publicly available stats, that's like the gold standard. So we use DPM. We looked at like 24 years worth of data are the number of superstars. And like this is where it gets into a little bit of like definition and eye of the beholder stuff like who qualifies as a superstar even statistically versus a just plain old star versus just significant contributor in a rotation.

[Raja Bell]

But we try superstar.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't recall where you're at. I'll go find it. I'll go find it. But the bottom line was this. The number of superstars over the last 24 years has not significantly increased the number of stars. The tier below superstar has not significantly increased where we've seen the most growth. And again, this is by one measure, your results may vary. You want to use per or wind shares or some other statistical models, you might find something different. But I think broadly speaking, this captured what we've seen, which is that there's a huge expansion in the number of tier three players, which is what we called significant contributors. These are like starters, high rotation guys. They're very, very good players. They help you win games, but they can't carry a team by themselves. They're not stars, they're not superstars. Yeah, they're. Yeah, they're just really good plug and play role dudes. And so yes, there is more talent than ever, but it's at the, it's at the tier three level, not the tier one or two level. The superstar star level. So you add two new teams, that's two more teams that don't have a guy to build around. And so if you look at where we are right now, you could say the Nets and Wizards are tanking. They are. But the fact that they can offload talent for the purposes of being bad, and it hasn't significantly improved a number of other teams. The Jazz have Lowry marketing and they're still terrible. The Portland Trailblazers have a bunch of recent lottery picks are still terrible. Like you've got a bunch of teams that are already kind of dead in the water. The Charlotte Hornets with Lamelo, like all these teams, you, you're telling me you're going to add 30 to 36, counting two way players, new guys, and that's not going to dilute the product. So that was, the attempt I made in this story was like, how much dilution is there? Can we, can you know, can the league add two teams and still have the quality of the product be good or good enough? And I think the jury's out on that. And I don't know if the league has done its own study on this. They wouldn't tell me no matter how many times I badgered them to ask, have you studied dilution? And they're saying it's because it's premature. We're not, we're not at that point yet. And one of the things I found out along the way here and talking to a number of people is expansion is not exactly on the horizon. It's probably at least a couple of years out and like we may not if, if there are two new teams and I Think it's. There's still an. If it's. We're not going to see them until 2028-2030. Somewhere in that. In that range. So it's going to be a while. And that's why the league's telling us it's premature. I may or may not have used the term pre. Premature expansionation in an email to my editor.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I mean, I don't. I mean I would. I don't know. Yeah. Stars are.

[Logan Murdoch]

Look.

[Raja Bell]

Stars are superstars. I'm sorry. Superstars and stars, I guess I should say are like. I've said this a million times on the pod. I'll just say it over and over again. Like while. They are really hard to come by while. While your average NBA. Like, you know how. You know how much I like Gilly the King, right? You know how much I like Gilly the King.

[Logan Murdoch]

The kid.

[Raja Bell]

Yes, but he's got his thing as the king now. Like on. On. On whatever. But like, so. But it doesn't matter.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

Gilly the kid. But any. He had something up there where he was like saying. And I couldn't tell whether he.

[Logan Murdoch]

Howard, do you know who Gilly the King is?

[Bill Simmons]

I may or may not be googling Gilly.

[Logan Murdoch]

He knows who cut. He is. You don't know who Gilly the King is.

[Raja Bell]

Gilly considers himself a Hooper, right? Like, he's a Philly guy and he had something on like his insta the other day about. About like what NBA players he would. He would bust. Bust their ass, right? Which, which is like pure comedy because like. And he. That falls into what I say all the time, which is like, people have no idea how good that tier three player Howard is talking about is. Or even I don't know if there was a Tier 4. Even your Tier 4 player to someone who, who, who. Who has never played at that level, you have no real understanding of how good that guy is. So even amongst the. Like that finding stars and superstars are rare. Like, you're almost. You're almost born into that. Like real talk. Like, it's. It's really difficult. It doesn't matter what I would have ever done, how hard I trained, how much I dedicated myself. I was never going to be that. Like, there was just not the upside in me for that. Like, I wasn't blessed to ever be that. Like, so, so they're only making so many of those dudes that have the potential to be that if they do everything they're supposed to do to maximize that potential, does that make sense?

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, right.

[Raja Bell]

So, like, to your point, Howard, like, those don't. They're not just falling off of trees. Mofos can work as hard as they want to work. Could be 6, 9 can do everything right. And you're just not that dude.

[Logan Murdoch]

You're.

[Raja Bell]

You're not Kevin Durant.

[Logan Murdoch]

And one of the things that like to add to Roger's point, and now that Howard spoke about beautifully, which is it's not just ability that makes someone a superstar. Right? Like there, I forgot the analogy that you used, but you said player X is selling out arenas as opposed to Rudy Gobert, who's a really good player. But it's like you're not going to go pay money to go see him, right? Like you're, I don't care what happens if Anthony Edwards is in town, I'm gonna go pay to go see him play. You know, like, that's, that's the, you know, an example, right? That's what a superstar is. He's someone that generates revenue. And there's only a couple of guys like that in the league. A few guys, maybe like 10 basketball.

[Bill Simmons]

Nerds would be like, you know, rhapsodizing about Alperin Shangoon, and for good reason. He's a really good player. But if Alpern Shangun's your best player, one, you're a playoff team maybe, but you're not a contender. But also, like, who's are you paying money to see? Alpern Chengu and all respect, like, he's a really good player. But like, Lamelo Ball's really fun to watch. I don't know how much the Charlotte Hornets are selling out because they're terrible anyway. There are players who are fun to watch. There are players who move the needle in terms of just being entertaining and worth the price of admission on their own. But they may or may not be able to carry a team. And so, and, and when you have a star, what do you do? You joke. You go try to find another, a second star and maybe a third star if you can afford them. There's only X amount per season. There's only so many stars. And so every star that you have on one team is another team that has possibly zero if there are two or three on one team. And so that's the thing. Like it's a, it's a fixed sum. Like it's a zero sum game. And I don't, I don't. I, I get, I get like the money part of this. These franchises are going to sell for a gazillion dollars. You're going to be in new markets. That's more fans, more merchandise sold, more people tuning in, maybe buying league pass. All that makes sense. But I don't know the quality of the product. I, I'm. My, my instincts are. And I think this story shows that there's a, there's definitely a risk to the quality of the product if you expand by two teams.

[Raja Bell]

I want to go back to the star thing because it's. That's interesting to me. Like, yeah, there, there's like a. No, there is an element of marketability and, and, you know, being able to sell out an arena that. I think you have to meet a winning criteria to do that. Because you referenced like Lamelo Howard, you know, if you're winning, if that's producing wins and, and, and you have this marketability and this, and this kind of swag about you. You might not have to necessarily win championships to be a superstar. Like, you can exist in the superstar realm just by being really, really good and, and, and you've got a good enough team combined with your marketability and all the other shit you have going on. And then you reference. Sing like a guy like that who might not have, you know, I don't know the. I, I don't know him. But like the charisma at the mic, the flair and all of that stuff, they can work their way to superstardom, but they have to win chips. Like, you've got to be. You got to take those talents like the Tim Duncan, right? Like, Tim didn't have any of that really. But Tim was pretty like, like that. You know, he was a chill dude. Like, didn't love to do a lot of press. Like, wasn't out, like, you know, wasn't into the fashion and like that. But he was a bad mofo that won a bunch of championships. And that can make you a superstar too. But I think so. I think it's. I think it's interesting that, like, that you could get there different ways, right? But like, to your point, you have to meet a winning criteria, like at least have viable teams. Doesn't necessarily have to mean you have to produce the championship over and over again. If you have the marketability and all the other kind of factors that go into being a superstar. If you don't, you better be winning championships.

[Logan Murdoch]

You know. What is the winning criteria? This fucking podcast. And that's how I gotta wrap it up. Cause I gotta dip. It's been another edition of real ones. Real onesmailbackmail.com real onesmailbackmail.com Real onesmailbackmail.com I am Logan Murdoch. That is Roger Bell. That is also Howard Beck. Produced by Eddie we will see you on Tuesday. Tap in all the shits. Bye. Must be 21 years and older, 18 years and older in D.C. and present in select states. FanDuel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem call 1-800-Gambler or visit FanDuel.com RG in Colorado, D.C. iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia and Vermont. Call 1-800-Next-Step or text Next Step to 53342 in Arizona, 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut, 1-800-9 with it in Indiana, 1-800-522-4700 or visit KS Gambling Help in Kansas, 1-877770, stop in Louisiana, visit MD Gambling Help in Maryland, visit 1-800Gambler.net in West Virginia or call 1-800-522- 4700 in Wyoming, hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-Hope NY or text Hopeny in New.