Wemby Saves the All-Star Game. Plus, Tanking Reform Gets Serious. | Group Chat

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show | Group Chat

Episode: Wemby Saves the All-Star Game. Plus, Tanking Reform Gets Serious.

Date: February 16, 2026
Panel: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann

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Overview

This episode dives into the 2026 NBA All-Star Game’s revival, largely credited to Victor Wembanyama’s intensity, and explores league-wide implications—on competitiveness, All-Star Weekend festivities, and the tanking conversation following Adam Silver’s press conference. The hosts debate potential reforms and the league’s direction with familiar candor and humor.

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All-Star Game 2026: Wemby Ignites Competitiveness

Wemby’s Transformative Impact

• Victor Wembanyama’s Approach:

  • Entered the game with rare intensity and seriousness, sparking greater effort.
    • "If there's one person who could do that, I think it's Victor Wembanyama... Wimby was the single handed catalyst that made this interesting." – Kyle Mann [02:00]
  • Wemby’s desire to win rippled to other stars, making the game compelling.
    • "Wemby giving a shit trickled down to the point where Ant said outright, yeah, Wemby got going, and I really wanted to go at him as a result of that." – Justin Verrier [04:06]

• Chain Reaction Among Stars:

  • Anthony Edwards followed Wemby’s lead, raising the game’s intensity.
    • "His great achievement in this game... is really getting Anthony Edwards going. And once Anthony Edwards got going, everyone kind of got going." – Rob Mahoney [03:35]
  • The format and environment allowed other stars, like Kawhi, to shine with similar tenacity.

• Game Format Praised:

  • The round-robin, three-team format led to closer, more competitive mini-games.
    • "This format, I think was an unqualified success for the league. It made it so much more watchable." – Rob Mahoney [12:45]
  • Players were “trying to play for the win” within shorter, high-stakes bursts ([13:31] Justin Verrier).

Personality & “Face of the League” Conversation

• Wemby’s ambition and openness in wanting to be the league’s face stood out.
  • "He isn't backing down from those conversations. He's been very forthright, basically being like, yeah, I want to be a guy. And you don't usually hear that." – Justin Verrier [08:18]
• The panel mused on generational differences in NBA stars’ attitudes.
  • "The very try hard strivey part of Victor Webb and Yama is something that I think appeals to a lot of people in our age demographic." – Rob Mahoney [09:16]

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Social media clip: Ant and Wemby in the tunnel—the contrast in attitude possibly sparked the competitive edge ([06:26] Kyle Mann).
• Kawhi Leonard’s all-time All-Star performance:
  • "He beat [his previous point total] in one 12 minute session of this game. Absolutely insane…hunting threes, hunting guys down…" – Rob Mahoney [17:30]
• Lighthearted roasts regarding Reggie Miller's mispronunciation and TV fashion [11:14–11:51].

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All-Star Saturday: Highs, Lows, and T-Shirt Catapults

• On-Site Anecdotes:

  • Justin survives a near-miss from a t-shirt catapult at the Intuit Dome (hijinks at [21:12–23:52]).
  • "I'm under fire.", Justin Verrier on the “assault.”

• Lackluster Festivities:

  • All-Star Saturday lacked “juice,” with a flat dunk contest and awkward shooting competitions.
    • "It was boring. That's got to go. I do wonder if the real fix for All Star Weekend is just to either diminish this...or just get rid of it altogether." – Justin Verrier [25:58]

• Dunk Contest Woes:

  • Event suffers from lack of high-profile participants; winner Keyshad Johnson is little-known to casual fans.
  • Calls for creative solutions (e.g., team dunks, routines) or scrapping the event entirely.
    • "Maybe this is ice dancing on my brain. I want partner routines. You pick two dunkers, you pick choreographed music, and you have a whole routine." – Rob Mahoney [29:35]

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Tanking & Adam Silver’s Press Conference

Tanking at the Forefront

• Silver made vague promises about addressing tanking, but skepticism is high.
  • "Most Adam Silver press conferences...have the same sort of like mealy mouth affect...I'm just like waiting for the movement and I'm waiting for the ideas." – Rob Mahoney [42:03]
• The Jazz’s blatant tanking is the season’s flashpoint; hosts debate fairness of scapegoating Utah ([45:06] onwards).

Reform Proposals: Abolish the Draft?

• Rob’s Proposal:
  • Abolish the NBA Draft, create rookie free agency with incentives for bad teams (bigger salary exceptions).
    • "If a team can't appeal to a player, why they should sign there, that player shouldn't sign there. And so the idea that we're just kind of designating based on draft orders that you go there now does not really make sense to me." – Rob Mahoney [55:58]
  • Argues this would end tanking and incentivize teams to improve their appeal.
• Panel Skepticism:
  • Kyle and Justin fear it would irreparably hurt small markets.
    • "It would turn some of these teams into wilderness...It will." – Kyle Mann [54:39]
    • "For me, this just feels a little too unwieldy. And it does, I think, nuke potentially a couple teams off the board." – Justin Verrier [59:05]
  • Concerns around NIL-like situations, black markets, and big markets hoarding talent.
• Larger debate about competitive balance, the purpose of local markets, and whether the league is evolving past the need for every city to contend.

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League Marketing & Experiential Concerns

Arena Experience vs. Modernization

• Panel debates arena amenities, AI-driven/CVR experiences vs. analog communal events.
  • "I almost wonder if the future of the inner arena experience is actually being less technologically advanced, not more forward thinking." – Justin Verrier [39:19]
  • "Anything you do that says get out your phone...is taking away and not adding to the experience of being in the arena." – Rob Mahoney [39:29]

Broadcasting & Customization

• Opportunities and dangers in AI-personalized broadcasts.
  • "The NBA would never sign off on [full-access audio], because...the language would just never...It would never happen." – Kyle Mann [36:20]
  • Panel skeptical that ultra-customized streams will catch on or serve the sport’s communal value.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Banter

• "This was wimby's Henry Muck app presentation where, you know, he says sincerities and in short supply." – Kyle Mann [10:31]
• On being the face of the league:
  • "You have to be competitive enough to kind of be an asshole about it sometimes..." – Rob Mahoney [09:41]
• On All-Star Saturday disasters:
  • "If there's anybody...that would. That it's the funniest to see them get shot by a T shirt cannon. And Justin, I'm sorry, it's probably you." – Kyle Mann [21:46]
• On the future of All-Star Saturday:
  • "It was just a lot of blah dunks, which we're used to at this point..." – Rob Mahoney [26:59]
• On tanking in the Jazz:
  • "Just take the Will Wade approach. That was my whole thing. Don't try to. We know what happened." – Kyle Mann [46:04]
• Wemby’s place in the league:
  • "That's the headline. This is not. Not Wemby's league right now." – Justin Verrier [20:59]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:28] – All-Star Game kicks off; initial impressions
• [02:00–05:22] – Wemby’s role in revitalizing the game; ripple effect on other stars
• [06:26–10:31] – The “Wemby vs. Ant” moment; generational attitudes; “face of the league” debate
• [12:45–15:08] – Praising new All-Star Game format; increased competitiveness
• [17:25–18:16] – Kawhi's remarkable All-Star showing
• [21:12–23:52] – All-Star Saturday: Justin’s t-shirt catapult ordeal
• [25:19–29:08] – All-Star Weekend’s contest critiques; ideas for rescuing the dunk contest
• [41:26–45:24] – Adam Silver’s press conference and the tanking problem
• [47:28–59:34] – In-depth debate: abolishing the draft, rookie free agency, small market viability

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Tone & Closing Thoughts

In classic Group Chat fashion, the hosts blend sharp, self-aware NBA analysis with friendly trashtalk, pop culture references, and meta-commentary about their own fandom. The prevailing mood: hopeful about the All-Star Game’s rediscovered spark; skeptical and feisty about big reforms, and always ready to poke fun at each other and the league.

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For listeners:
If you’re tracking All-Star Game changes, Wemby’s rise, or tanking reform, this episode provides lively, substantive debate—with plenty of one-liners and NBA inside-baseball.

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Next up:
Look out for more Group Chat later this week (new schedule: Thursday), with updates on league reform and midseason storylines.

Transcript

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[Justin Varior]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varior and joining me, sitting right before me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle man on the big screen. Gentlemen, the All Star game. It's back.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's good again.

[Justin Varior]

Look at that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, kind of mostly good again.

[Justin Varior]

So Rob and I went to All Stars Saturday night, but we watched the game together in the big old screen in the office. Kyle, you were at home. Give us your thoughts. Just off the top here, Kyle, what'd you think about the All Star game? Are you feeling the juices flowing after the new format?

[Kyle Mann]

Before the game started, I thought to myself, you know, if there's one person who has power, like and, and, and by power, I mean the dominance, the, the, the option to choose to affect a basketball game of this capacity of this magnitude with this much talent on the floor. If there's one person who could do that, I think it's Victor Wimbanyama. And you know, lo and behold, we get, we go out there. Yeah, tough. We can get to Denny. Lo and behold, we go out there and he wants to win. He's very intense. He's very serious. I think that Victor was the catalyst for. I think you could kind of trace back and make all kinds of conclusions about why we ended up where we were. We never ended up in any kind of sequence where we had like multiple run out dunks in a row and you know, people are going to take a pee and buy a beer at that point. Or. Or just tuning out completely. I'll be honest with you guys. I hadn't watched the All Star Game in a while. I just didn't give a shit anymore. I didn't care about it. And I think that Wimby was the single handed catalyst that made this interesting. I think he's the only person that had the power to do it. Was what I wanted to ask you guys was, if you don't mind me starting the show this way, please, what do you think that means about the NBA? Because I don't think anybody else could have rolled out here in this situation and been that kind of a catalyst. I know we all probably still agree that Jokic is the best player in the world, but how far is too far when you're like drawing a conclusion about the way this went down tonight in the league?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I think it's very easy to project whatever you feel about the MVP class of players, both the guys who are healthy and unhealthy. Like, if Shea had been playing in this game, there might be people saying, oh, he's, you know, maybe he's too cool to, to be an instigator in the way that Wemby is. Even if Giannis is in this game. Is that the exact kind of energy that this ga that the All Stars need to like, really rev them up? I think there's something very specific about Wemby that is both invigorating and sometimes aggravating to people, and they want to respond to it. And his great achievement in this game, in addition to just like ferociously posting dudes and going at Kawhi and LeBron and anyone in front of him, I think is really getting Anthony Edwards going. And once Anthony Edwards got going, everyone kind of got going. And so there was just like a chain reaction that I think you're alluding to Kyle in terms of, yeah, he has the power and the skill set to take a game like this seriously and really affect it, but he also is like exactly the kind of personality type that other players seem to respond to for whatever reason.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, I think Wemby off the jump. Number one reason why this was a good product, an entertainment product, which is time and time again we're talking about how to save this and that. Like, we should think about this thing as something to sell to fans. And Wemby giving a shit trickled down to the point where Ant said outright, yeah, Wemby got going, and I really wanted to go at him as a result of that, when Wemby is barreling down on you in game two and trying to dunk on you. If you're LeBron James, you have to stand your ground and try to provide some sort of just a counterbalance to that. Having said that, though, I agree with what Kyle is saying overall. And my favorite part about All Star is kind of how it maps onto the league, but also how it tells us about certain players when they're all together. It's the whole, like, throw the car keys theory that Bill kind of trots around. But I do think, like, certain players step to the forefront, and perhaps that's more about a social quality to it more. Maybe it's about popularity, maybe it's about a domineering attitude more than anything. Sure. But I do want to see, like, when the juices are flowing like it's had had been in the previous instances where when you had the Elam ending, certain guys stepped to the fore. Before it was like Steph and LeBron and here, Wemby, Ant Kawhi, three players who dominated this season. I mean, it does feel like this is kind of aligning with the way the league is going and certain things that we're all kind of expecting from the regular season at large.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I think there was a lot of good basketball playing deference among all of these stars. So it felt like we're legitimately trying to make the right plays. We're trying to set each other up. But it's telling when all these guys trying to set each other up just coincidentally ends with Anthony Edwards having the ball in his hands in every, like, crucial situation for his team. Right. Like, there's just a.

[Kyle Mann]

He chose to be the period at the end of the sentence when it could have gone on longer. Several. Which is Ant's way, but continue.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, no, it's absolutely his way. But I think you see it even in the way other players responded, which I think is what we're talking about, like, the ecosystem of stars. How do these guys place each other and rank and file? How, like, what is the political capital that a LeBron James has stepping into a game like this versus a De' Aaron Fox or a Brandon Ingram or whoever? Like, we saw players across the spectrum playing well. Like Scotty Barnes had, like, an impact on these games. Right. But he's not the biggest star in the world. And I think when push came to shove and when the moments kind of like, shorn up, it really was Ant and Kawhi and Victor Wembanyama. And there, you know, a couple exceptions here and there, but they were the standouts of the night, for sure.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah. There was a moment Justin was talking about Ant and Wimby, that dynamic in particular, you know, there was a moment before the game started that I think got posted on Social where there was one camera person who was just panning back and forth like Edgar Wright style between Ant and Wimby in the tunnel. And Ant was kind of just like John and Wimby jokingly. And he panned over to Wimby and it was like, oh, Wimby's not joking at all. He's like dead serious. Had a dead serious look on his face. And it goes back to aunt and ants, like, oh, okay. And I really seriously wonder if that was the moment that the, like, chemical reaction of this happened. And I kind of was like catching myself. We, as people who cover the league, you know, I'm. I try. I get caught up in like the broader, like the. The romance of the broader, over the years, story of the NBA. That's the thing that lured me to basketball in the first place. I love it. But Bob Costa is there tonight. Again, I'll reiterate my love for him, but I just. I caught myself thinking, you know, you don't want to be in the bag, like overdoing it, trying to myth make for certain players, because coming from, especially coming from the Jordan generation, I'm prone to that. I get caught up in that bullshit. But when I was watching it, I was just thinking to myself, would I be proud of myself for not appreciating how special it is and how lucky it is we are, quite frankly, to be watching the NBA and to see a player not only with Victor's crazy physical gifts, his crazy frame, for him to have the personality that he has. It'd be one thing if he was just this laissez faire dude who was just kind of like, you know, whatever. Whatever happens, happens. He has like a Kobe Bryant spirit, brain, whatever you want to call it. And it reminded me of 1998 when Kobe came in as a 1918 year old in that game and was like, I'm dead serious about this. And you could see Jordan was like, I guess we're going to be dead serious about this. That's what it kind of reminded me of. And I just love Wimby. Wimby's approach to today, it really. It really made a huge difference.

[Justin Varior]

It's a great point because another kind of theme going through this entire weekend was people asking Wemby how much he wants to be the face of the league, the face of the league conversation is so nebulous. It ultimately boils down to who has the right sort of mix of popularity and success. It honestly has more to do with Q rating than it does like just how good of a basketball player you are. It's why Jokic wouldn't be considered the face of the league. But we're talking about Wemby as someone who not only is in the running for that, but also wants it very badly. And the one thing I do love about Wemby is he isn't backing down from those conversations. He's been very forthright, basically being like, yeah, I want to be a guy. And you don't usually hear that. It's very like Timothy Chalamet right now where it's just like you have to. At a certain point, if someone has that amount of self belief, you kind of have to respect it. Even though it does feel, I don't know, particularly 2026 as well. Which I know as a millennial feels a little tough though. But like there's something very honest about that and I do think honesty cuts through amongst everything else.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think it speaks to. Not to make this just pure generational warfare, but speaks to the millennial in us. Like the like very try hard strivey part of Victor Webb and Yama is something that I think appeals to a lot of people in our age demographic. Whereas.

[Justin Varior]

Why are you looking at me?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm looking at all of us. I just like, because so many people of his age bracket, like it's very easy to be non plussed. It's very easy to just be like tuned down, toned down all the time.

[Justin Varior]

Wearing their fucking big pants and not.

[Rob Mahoney]

Caring as they're doing. No, my point is not to tear down literally any other generation just to say that Victor Wembanyama wanting this stuff so badly does make him an interesting figure to try to attain it and really one of the only people who can. And also makes him the target of criticism and the target of a certain kind of cynicism. As far as like what that stuff represents about him and what he means. That is a perfect face of the league. Like you can't be so polished, you're unimpeachable. You have to be competitive enough to kind of be an asshole about it sometimes, including throwing up your hands at Carl Anthony Towns, blowing an like a portion of an all Star game. And also be so sincere that some people almost want to try to see through it and to see what your actual motivations are to try to parse some Part of you. Like, I think he has all of the ingredients in a really critical way.

[Kyle Mann]

This was. This was wimby's Henry Muck app presentation where, you know, he says sincerities and in short supply. I keep making these industry jokes as if Justin watches the show.

[Justin Varior]

I hope.

[Kyle Mann]

Okay. I didn't know. We've never talked about it.

[Justin Varior]

I kept.

[Kyle Mann]

I didn't know.

[Justin Varior]

I don't love this, but it's fine.

[Kyle Mann]

I love the season. I have many thoughts, Rob, that we'll talk about later. And now that I know that you watch, all three of us will talk about it.

[Justin Varior]

There we go.

[Kyle Mann]

No, but I think it is interesting. Consider it is an interesting marketing moment. You know, I know. Like over and over again. I think, I feel like this is an annual thing where number one, Reggie, for the love of God, it's women. Yama, please just say women. Yama, it's not women. How has no one. Maybe someone has said something.

[Rob Mahoney]

Someone. But right.

[Kyle Mann]

Also, Reggie getting absolutely nuclear eviscerated roasted by Obama on national TV was incredible tv.

[Justin Varior]

Also speaking of Reggie, just briefly, did you notice he was wearing two sport coats? He was wearing like a. A suit coat on top of a suit coat.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like a double breasted jacket with a blazer on top of it.

[Justin Varior]

I've never seen that before. He made history himself.

[Rob Mahoney]

Really on the cutting edge blazer or.

[Kyle Mann]

Was it cold in there? Was it like a kind of a warmer blazer over a. Wait, what was on top? Blazer or suit jacket?

[Rob Mahoney]

Blazer on top and what looked like a full. Again, I think double double breasted suit jacket underneath it.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah.

[Kyle Mann]

And this all Star game blazer not on top any. Not so good. Just want to say, had to get that one in there again. Yeah, I was just going to say in the flow of this past week, which I think I was talking with somebody in the NBA who was like just saying that this is kind of the flow of the NBA schedule. We tend to do this where we're like, these games are great and we're. As they go on, we're just. We start to look around Will Smith style and be like, man, it's like there's not as much going on here that I'm as excited about and. And it's. We start to pick it apart and it got very negative this past week and you're speaking to like Victor's Persona as a brand I think was an incredible swish and spit for. For the nar. Like the way things have been going this week, I was vindicated once again. By that. But no, you were not. Don't you think? I mean, I think. I think that that was a nice palette cleanse. Like, because we. It really tuned out a lot of the things that people were fretting about.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, let's say this. It's not just Victor Wembanyama and Anthony Edwards and Kawhi and all the. All the players who really like showed up for these games. This format, I think was an unqualified success for the league. It made it so much more watchable. It's so very clearly from the opening possessions felt like actual basketball. And whatever it takes to make that happen, I think needs to happen. And so in this alignment, having those guys on opposite sides of things definitely helped. But also just breaking it up and chunking up the teams in this way seems to have worked wonders.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. So the number one thing here is people giving a shit. And I do think regardless of what the format was, that was going to make a noticeable difference if you bothered to tune in. Michelle, she'll mention this happened in the middle of the afternoon, which is a little weird and yeah, kind of disruptive for a lot of people. Even we didn't realize it until it was really happening.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, and happened in the middle of the afternoon because NBC made a business decision to air tape delayed Olympic competition because that's going to draw a bigger audience than the NBA All Star Game in the form that it's taken.

[Justin Varior]

And frankly, like, I don't blame them because the All Star game was down bad, even probably worse than the tanking situation. But I think like the trying obviously matters. I also think the format as Rob is alluding to, I also think that was a pretty like rousing success. Yeah, having a round robin format where you have three teams and they really had to give a shit in those 12 minutes. It does remind me of games past where if things were close toward the end, then you saw the juices start to flow and things turn on. You basically condensed certain games into that sort of block. And as a result, I think guys were like trying to play for the win in ways that they typically have to wait an entire night for an entire halftime concert for which we also didn't get. So the breaks were a little bit long, I thought, but by and large you were just getting a highly condensed dose of pretty good basketball. I wouldn't say it's like high end regular season, but it also wasn't low end All Star slop. It was that right. Sort of like perfect zone of like they care enough, but probably not as much as the regular season, that's exactly what the All Star Game should always be.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, Kyle. I knew they had something when. When the games were close. I actually wanted them to go to overtime, like I felt myself wanting. Like, let's get those extra five points. Let's get, like, a little extra juice. Like, this is actually going well. And the first three competitions in particular were so close and so competitive. Like, that is just a world away from the instantaneous. My eyes glazing over action of basically all of the All Star Games of the last five years.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah. When the world team was trying to close that second game, I caught myself being like, oh, I don't like this lineup. Oh, they got his. What am I. And I stopped myself. I was like, whoa, this is the All Star Game. Like, what is going on here? Like, I. I was getting into it. Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

I think one of the advantages to this game is that some of the biggest offenders from the jacking era, I remember specifically being in Indiana. Like, Luca and Jokic tend to fuck around a little bit too much in this format.

[Kyle Mann]

And so while damage done in jacking eras. Right, jv, we know. Yeah, that's true.

[Justin Varior]

But I just felt like getting rid of the. Those sorts of guys. I actually had a moment where I said to Rob, like, if they had more depth on the world team as a result of those guys not playing, it would have made a difference, which is a pretty big moment. But those guys also are the ones left to fuck around. The only one who was really taking a copious amount of deep threes was really Carl Townes.

[Rob Mahoney]

But it was working.

[Justin Varior]

He was making a bunch of them. And then he kind of flipped it on the other side, where towns goofiness kind of undid the world Team that first game.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I also love the goofiness that the format itself lends itself to, particularly in the commentary. Wrote down a couple quotes. One from Noah Eagle. The world needs a push. Tell me about it, brother Reggie. The world is in desperation mode. Absolutely. And our own Kyle Mann, globalist Kyle Mann in the group chat. Group chat. I am full on rooting for the world. Would you like to explain yourself way to.

[Kyle Mann]

Way to out me? No, I just. I was. I was rooting for them because they were the team making it interesting. I knew they were the catalyst. I was like, we got to keep this going because we saw what happened when the OG team ran out of gas in the last game and they.

[Rob Mahoney]

Were still relatable, unfortunately.

[Justin Varior]

Well, that's the one kind of thing I would probably Change there. Maybe don't stack an entire team with old guys who are going to struggle regardless or probably aren't going to give it their all this entire time regardless. Let's get more of a blend on the USA team. Divvy it up based off of maybe location. Maybe those go east west then the world itself is its own thing. But by and large you want to.

[Rob Mahoney]

Make it north versus South.

[Justin Varior]

I didn't say that. I said east West. You fucked.

[Rob Mahoney]

You're the one doing regional time.

[Justin Varior]

Really trying to turn this into a different sort of podcast. This is the daily, my friend.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not doing anything. I'm just responding to what you're telling me.

[Justin Varior]

But that would be my only quibble here is just like the old. That last game was. Was pretty rough to watch. Kwai carried them in that second game. We.

[Kyle Mann]

We gotta talk about Kawhi. I mean that was incredible.

[Justin Varior]

Absolute killer stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

So he. So he had dropped 30 in an all Star game before and he beat that in one 12 minute session of this game. Absolutely insane. I mean he, it was as, as bloodthirsty as we've seen him maybe all season. Like he's had some incredible regular season performances clearly. But hunting threes, hunting guys down, picking guys off in back in the backcourt of an All Star game. I this game needed that energy too. And I think it's important that it got it from him that it's not all Wemby and Ant and the next guard of players who are up and coming. Like you had to get representation from the Kawhis and the LeBron's and the Durants and those. The latter two had their moments, but Kawhi, I mean just grabbed it just grabbed control of the middle portion of this entire game and put a stamp on it a way that no other player did.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, and I think he got pushed to that point where he, you know, was like I'm gonna. The, the stakes were there that it was worth him turning it. That and I don't know that we would have gotten that in any other situation. I was going to ask you guys, did you think. Do you think Jaylen Brown at any other point where he was basically playing with the Team USA squad, did he ever kind of, you think he was kind of looking for Steve Kerr in the, in the arena and be like yeah, you know, like maybe how you like me now? A little bit of that energy possibly. I don't know. I thought that might be going on in Jalen Brown's head.

[Rob Mahoney]

If Jalen Brown had gotten Hurt and Derrick White was an injury replacement. I would have lost my damn mind. I gotta say.

[Justin Varior]

Probably would have been better than. Than Brandon Ingram, though.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, he didn't do much. The All Star Game is weird. It's weird for lots of players.

[Justin Varior]

Yes. But I thought this was a success. In the worlds of the words of Scotty Barnes. Yay.

[Kyle Mann]

Can I ask one more thing? I had one more question. Is that okay with you guys? I was going to see. Do you think that we had a Jamal McGlore Award for the player who is getting a rare chance to be in this game and trying harder than everyone else? Did we have anybody? I thought Norm Powell might be a candidate for this. Jamal Murray, probably. Probably. But I think he's deserved to be here. He's not in the category.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would also say he just kind of tried as hard as everybody else. Like, the game was up to that, and I was glad to see everybody kind of chipping in and being involved. There are moments where it's like, even Dear and Fox, who had, like, technically a game winning three, there are moments where I'm like, should Dear and Fox be on the floor with these other guys? Like, he was turning the ball over. He didn't seem, like, quite up to the moment in the way that we're talking about the Stars sorting themselves out. But to be honest, I didn't think anybody was, you know, completely out of their element. I thought, all these players clearly deserve to be here, even though we're four and five injury replacements deep. But nobody, I would say, covered themselves in glory in the way that Jamal McGlord in Jamal McGlory.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

I mean, the ones that come to mind, Chet had, like, a block and then largely just kind of coasted the entire dunk, though.

[Kyle Mann]

Well, I had. Tyler texted me, like, going crazy that Bickerstaff was playing Durin more than Chad, so. And I laughed. And he was like, no, I'm not. I'm being dead serious. He was like, I'm actually mad. So maybe we can get Tyler's explanation on that one.

[Justin Varior]

I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you think the fans of Team Stars got big mad that we led so hard with Wimby on this pod? You know why? I don't know.

[Justin Varior]

Because they won.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, who are they? As my first question, but, like, do you think literally anyone cares?

[Justin Varior]

Listen, they were trying to force the narrative. Reggie in particular, that, like, this is, like, the young guys taking over the league. No, they're not. Like, maybe Ant and, like, a couple other guys are playing well yeah, but I just don't think this is Jalen Duran and. And Co's league at this point.

[Rob Mahoney]

But it's not Victor. It's not. Not Victor Webanyama's league. It's not. Not Anthony Edwards.

[Justin Varior]

That's the headline. This is not. Not Wemby's league right now. That's.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's punchy.

[Justin Varior]

Okay, why don't we take a break? We want to talk about All Star Saturday Night and some other tanking stuff that was going on in the midst of all this. So Rob and I went to Saturday night.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Justin Varior]

Saturday afternoon at All Star Weekend. I gotta say, Intuit. Lovely place. Unfortunately, I took fire immediately upon. In my seat. I got.

[Kyle Mann]

Lay this out for me. I need to. I need to know. Just tell me. Do not spare any detail because Ben Cruz texted and was like begging for video. And I wanted the video. I just wanted to see you getting shot with a T shirt cannon so badly. If there's anybody in the. On the show that would. That it's the funniest to see them get shot by a T shirt cannon. And Justin, I'm sorry, it's probably you. I'm sorry.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is a panel. This is a panel of three. I'm inclined to agree.

[Justin Varior]

God damn it. So it wasn't so much a T shirt cannon, I should clarify so much as a T shirt catapult. Because at the Intuit Dome, they have that giant ring of death going around the center court, which I have to say is big and beautiful. And I got to the point where it's like, if it looks this good on a TV screen, why are we actually even going to games to see the thing below? Because the screen is just presenting the game way better than you can get anywhere else. But at the top of that, they have little T shirt, like catapult launchers.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

In order to serve, I think the fans in the upper bowl. So that the fans that probably want those T shirts the most, that are probably just casual fans that can't afford $900 tickets to go to All Star Saturday and get some goddamn T shirts. Well, I didn't realize this. We were sitting all the way up there and so I was. I had my head down. I think we were in a break during the three point shooting contest. I was literally on my phone and all of a sudden I bam. Right next to me, like, right. My hand phone gets walloped by a densely packed All Star LA 2026 T shirt.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

And I'm like, I'm under fire.

[Rob Mahoney]

God. Really does save his toughest battles for his strongest soldiers. Just kidding.

[Kyle Mann]

Well, I happen to have an injury attorney on speakerphone gear. Have you suffered any pain and suffering today?

[Justin Varior]

I have a neck just waiting for me back in my hotel room.

[Rob Mahoney]

You should have showed up with one today.

[Justin Varior]

I. I'm feeling the pain right now. Definitely pain in the ass from dealing with you guys.

[Rob Mahoney]

I got to say, from the way you initially relayed the story to us, I thought you had actually been hit. But it sounds like it just landed on the table. Next. Hand, your hand.

[Justin Varior]

I need this hand to type.

[Kyle Mann]

Your test is even funnier in a way. I was hoping you like, had popcorn and you were like looking at slack or something and huge explosion.

[Justin Varior]

You know, I hadn't visited the hydration station just yet, but if I have my big old cup of coke all over my pants, that would have been great.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think we needed more of that, like popcorn related or hydration station related explosion on your part. It can't just be a T shirt hit you. I'm going to be honest, you're being a little melodramatic about hurt.

[Kyle Mann]

I don't think you guys have ever been like actually close to a T shirt cannon that's being shot. But it's, it's. The stakes are high. You got to be.

[Justin Varior]

Thank you.

[Kyle Mann]

You got to be looking. I was at a corporate event one time where they, you know, they were just getting everybody. It was one of these. They were big on their culture, yada yada yada, and just rah rah and youth group type stuff. They run out, everybody stands up and I'm like, oh, these people love T shirts. I quickly realized, no, everyone's standing up because they're like in defense mode. It's like, be on your. Be on your toes. So T shirt cannon, man. I'm sure, I'm sure someone's been hit in the face with one at some point.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, especially the high tech ones they have now that are not just a self standing cannon like a Gatling gun. It's like full on artillery, you know, like that. See, if you told me you got hit by that, I think we all understand.

[Justin Varior]

Okay, how about I fucking chuck something at your head right after this? I'm just gonna throw it at you.

[Rob Mahoney]

But here's the thing. You didn't even know it was coming until it landed on the table next to you. I get it. It would, it would shock you.

[Justin Varior]

When you guys take fire, come talk to me.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right.

[Kyle Mann]

I don't choose how comedy works, Justin. Well, unfortunately, I just know in my DNA that it would. You'd be the funniest to get hit. I just know that I would say.

[Rob Mahoney]

The most notable things to happen to us for us on All Star Saturday. Number one, Justin getting hit with a T shirt by the T shirt cannon slash catapult. Number two, as we are leaving, passing by a very harried Wolf Blitzer on the concourse trying to find his group via cell phone. Number three, literally everything else that was supposed to be happening on the court, it was. It was an awful day of events, I have to say.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. Unfortunately, Sunday had the appropriate amount of juice. Saturday had no juice whatsoever. I think there weren't a lot of people there to begin with. The three point contest was fine. Yeah. And I thought that it was a good idea at the very least to start with it. Typically, they kind of build up to it after the skills challenge, but all of a sudden, the skill challenge wasn't there. I wasn't made aware of that. We have some sort of, like, pseudo shooting contest in between with teams.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, that's always been there. Shooting Stars has always been there.

[Justin Varior]

They just don't put it with the legends. Yeah.

[Kyle Mann]

So Ellen Houston stroke. I have to say, still nice. Oh, man. Brought me back. I was like, I missed that.

[Justin Varior]

Unfortunately. That event sucked.

[Rob Mahoney]

It does.

[Justin Varior]

It was. It was boring. That's got to go. I do wonder if the real fix for All Star Weekend is just to either diminish this to the point where it's just like three point shooting contest and out, or just get rid of it altogether. Just have an All Star game and don't worry about anything leading up to it. Is a little kind of against history because they made such a big deal about All Star Weekend. But, like, the slam dunk contest was huge dud. I just don't know what's left. Unless these guys start getting trampolines or moon boots or something in order to add some real zip to it.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I would say Keyshaw Johnson, innocent. You know, the eventual winner. I thought he did, like, everything he could to try to, like, bring energy and charisma. He was dancing through every break. Like, I appreciated the creativity of the dunks, but also the showmanship, which is sorely lacking.

[Justin Varior]

Kyle, you'll appreciate this. Rob, he started flashing his A.B. johnson then. And Rob's like, that's my move. That's what I usually do.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's not what it is.

[Justin Varior]

When I was getting married, I did the real, like, flash my ab move.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's never been a move for me, unfortunately.

[Kyle Mann]

Can't picture that one, you know, if only.

[Rob Mahoney]

But yeah, it was just a lot of blah dunks, which we're used to at this point. I did think there was a brief moment, you know, Jace Richardson took an alley oop off the side of the backboard and lost balance for a moment. And I was like, is Jace Richardson going to die for the All Star game? Is he going to have a life altering injury because his head whipped back? I like, I don't know why they didn't at least check him for a concussion or something. That seemed like quite a fault. And for what? For what are we doing here?

[Justin Varior]

He's in protocols now.

[Kyle Mann]

He should be. Did he lose his balance, like off the jump? Is that why it happened? Because I was like, man, that was. That was one of the worst, worst moments, like dunk contest history. That was, that was dark. That was tough.

[Rob Mahoney]

We'll have to check the tape. I feel like it was something involving maybe like his wrist hitting the rim or it's like something around the basket, I think kind of threw him off balance in midair. And it was legitimately terrifying among us.

[Kyle Mann]

Right?

[Justin Varior]

I mean.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right. But also one of the only moments I felt literally anything at all watching the dunk contest. So it's just a really sad state of things for that event and I don't know how to fix it and I don't think anybody does.

[Kyle Mann]

Well, you guys wouldn't have seen this, but the Sports center lead in from the dunk contest. The anchor, I forget which anchor it was, but he, he, I wrote this down. He said, we're not even going to show Jackson Hayes because his dunks were not good. That was what was said, the brutality. Yeah, that was tough. So couldn't, couldn't, you know, couldn't happen to a better guy.

[Justin Varior]

So, yeah, I guess the question is like, what's the harm? Do you guys feel strongly about this either way? Like, if they got rid of it tomorrow, are you guys going to be up in arms? Do you think there are people out there just because of the sake of the history of it all? Because this is the marquee event of All Star Weekend. It has been dating back to Jordan. Yeah, Dominique and all that other stuff. I would feel probably a little wistful if it went away completely, but we're at the point where Mack McClung can't compete because he's the only one that actually knows how to do cool dunks.

[Rob Mahoney]

And he posted the dunks that he says he would have done. I got to say they were pretty sick.

[Justin Varior]

They Were cool.

[Rob Mahoney]

They were very cool dunks. Not enough for me and stuff that we haven't seen before. But even he doesn't want to compete at anymore. He's been there, done that three times over.

[Justin Varior]

Should be like a taped situation where people have time. I don't know, like. Like put your best dunk on tape.

[Rob Mahoney]

You want to take the live element out of live sports.

[Justin Varior]

Well, that's the problem. It's just like you're trying to do these highly technical, choreographed moves which are impossible to begin with, but you're. Then you're just hoping in the. The span of two minutes, these guys can pull it off.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

And so if you want something more technical and fun, which is where we need, because there really isn't much going on right now. I just don't know how you get that unless, like, evolution happens and all of a sudden we develop like, a third armor. Something.

[Rob Mahoney]

Here's my suggestion. And look, we're just friends. We're just spitballing here. We're just trying to solve the NBA dunk contest. Maybe this is ice dancing on my brain. I want partner routines. You pick two dunkers, you pick choreographed music, and you have a whole routine that you do. We're not talking about individual dunks.

[Justin Varior]

You want a double dunk?

[Rob Mahoney]

I want a double dunk. Or a procession of dunk. It's. It's not. Here's your one dunk. It's you do you dunk as many cool dunks as you can within a certain time frame, and afterwards, we give you the 0 to 10 based on the arbitrary and increasingly fishy criteria that apparently is used to judge all figure skating and figure skating adjacent events.

[Kyle Mann]

Like, how.

[Rob Mahoney]

How do you guys feel about this?

[Kyle Mann]

Do, like, floor routine. We could get some, you know, parallel bars, something with a basketball goal. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Have you seen someone dunk off a pommel horse before? I haven't.

[Kyle Mann]

It could work for a year. There we go. That's one. That's one placeholder idea we have. I just don't think that. Seriously, though, like, I know we're joking about the Jace Richardson thing. I mean, that's the kind of thing that is going to de. Incentivize a star. Because if you fall on your face in this event, it's just kind of like something that people. People laugh about, and it's. It's tough.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank goodness he was fine. Genuinely.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. I mean, we're not even at star level anymore. We're not even at rotation level. Some of these guys are bench players at best. Johnson who wanted doesn't even. He's not on the active roster.

[Kyle Mann]

He's a two way guy. What percentage what percent of regular NBA fans know who Kashad Kishad Johnson is?

[Justin Varior]

None. Very few. I think it's 0.001%.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think even what percentage of like group chat listener sickos know who Keyshot Johnson is? Right. It's like you can't ask people to be locked in on not even like deep rotation players but two way guys who are kind of technically only when so and so is hurt members of the rotation. Like it's not a reasonable expectation. And if you're trotting out players who are supposed to represent the league again, this is not his fault. It's the system's fault and it's the history of the competition's fault for taking us to this point where Keyshot Johnson has to be the one in the spotlight trying to save it.

[Justin Varior]

Well, I think overall pretty good weekend for the league in part because everyone finally stopped talking about tanking reform. It felt like going into Adam Silver's press conference on Saturday that the pitchforks were going to be out. People were waiting to see what he was going to say about tanking, about expansion, but in particular about tanking overall. Felt like he kind of dodged the bullet successfully. Said enough to suggest that they were going to think the NBA down the road in terms of actually trying to eradicate whatever tanking has popped up over the course of this past week or two and also dating back over the past couple of years, which is a good sign, I would say overall successful weekend for Silver, especially today. Kind of getting it off the front page with a successful All Star Game. How are you guys just feeling overall? Because last time we talked about this, I at the very least was up in arms on this subject. Felt like everyone got their wax in. It got to the point where almost I felt like we went a little too far.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, but so you fanned the flames and you didn't like how far those fans, those flames spread.

[Kyle Mann]

What your revolutionaries took took the baton from you and where they ran. I was, I mean, well, he also, I also noticed some, some ire over his comments about where streaming, you know, amenities are going to go. I know I saw some people really upset about that. I was curious to hear what you all thought before we launch into the.

[Justin Varior]

Tanking, like kind of right off the bat, I think it was.

[Kyle Mann]

Which always warms a crowd. It really typically does. Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

I think he's ultimately right though that we kind of are on the precipice of things getting pretty wonky in terms of just everyday life. And he has been forward looking at the very least about the way that people consume the game. People have gotten critical in the past about him mentioning like highlights driving a lot of viewership. But ultimately I think what he was like pointing out was correct. Which is probably not something you really want to beat your chest over. Like whenever they put out statistics about like their social media imprint, I don't think that's a good look. But he's right. People are by and large consuming things in digestible clips and that's just a fact of life. That's how all of us like get everything at this point. Our brains are rotted to the point of no return. And I think we have to at the very least be open about that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

And so I think he's right that AI is probably going to fuck some shit up even more. And I don't blame him for pointing that out.

[Rob Mahoney]

Especially the framework that he was talking about is like, we're about to enter an era where broadcasting in particular and your access to NBA games is going to be more customizable than it's ever been before because of some of the AI like produced possibilities and also just like where we're at in the micro in the marketplace. Right. This is what people do respond to, like it or not. Like they do want these customizable experiences. I, I think for the NBA and for all professional sports leagues, they'd be very careful at this exact thing because it's one thing to give people what they want and there's lots of ways in which the NBA does that. What the NBA is selling fundamentally is communal experience. And it's this idea that you and I can be on opposite sides of sides of the country and watch the same All Star Game. And I can text you about Kawhi Leonard and I can go to work tomorrow and I can talk about it around the water cooler. And we all saw fundamentally the same thing. But if we all get to choose how we're processing and being broadcast and fed these games. And I want to watch the AI first person view from Con Knippel's perspective. And Justin wants to watch the version in which all the players have been reproduced with like Scooby Doo characters or whatever on the Nick Jr. I guess that'd be a Cartoon Network broadcast. I don't. Who can speak to the idea looking.

[Justin Varior]

At me while you're saying this?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just saying hypothetically, if we all consumed dramatically different versions of the same product. You're stretching out the core value of what it is you have to offer.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, I just don't think that anybody's ever going to turn to that though. Like perhaps. Which part to just like alternative broadcasts. Like we already have this in different forms. They've been selling 3D. Like, oh, you're on the court and you get to see this perspective and no one gives a shit about that. It's way too expensive. It reminds me of like meta and all these tech companies talking about the metaverse and that never happened. And so I don't think like how we consume the product is going to be appreciably different in the near future at the very like maybe 10 years down the road. But like, I don't think anyone's turned into those sorts of.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not in mass as of yet. But they're going to get better and they're going to get more polished and they're going to look a less. A little less like Lawnmower Manny in terms of the 3D graphics involved. And I. The Lawnmower Man. Are you not familiar with the movie the Lawnmower Man?

[Kyle Mann]

Justin, come on, don't even worry about it, really.

[Justin Varior]

I got nothing. Honestly, you're better off watching Scooby Doo, apparently. Too much.

[Rob Mahoney]

But it's one of those things that when that breaks, the ecosystem of the sport breaks, right? Like everything that the NBA is based on, if it does go too far, there's no reeling that back. And so I think it's one of those like edges that the league has to be very careful in terms of trotting around.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, a few things here. I mean, I think the, the viewing experience, things that they've tinkered with like, you know, the Vision Pro or Meta or whatever your, your delivery system or you know, software interface that you're using. I never thought that that take off because, you know, I do think that there's value to seeing an NBA game really close so you can appreciate the speed of it, because I don't think that that comes across. But it's not a great place to watch a basketball game if you're wanting to see the, the what's going on. But then the other part of that too, where I thought that that was going to struggle was that one of the best parts about sitting really close to a game like that is the auditory experience of sitting near and hearing the conversations and hearing what such and such player says on the court. Or like you'll see these little breakouts where Kevin Durant like Jaws with, like, team or Kevin Durant. Jaws with T. Morant on the sideline and says something funny and that's not captured on tv. The NBA would never sign off on that because it's like the. The language would just never. It would never happen. And then I think another thing, too, is that undermining one of the core kind of human things about NBA that is about the NBA baske want sporting events is. It's one of the last monoculture things that we have that we experience live in real time. Like, it's fun to go see a movie with a bunch of people who are also interested in it, but that thing is not happening in real time. Like the theater and the drama of seeing that and experiencing it and hearing the same things on the broadcast and laughing about it on Twitter, I just don't see them. I don't see. I don't see the appeal of diluting those. Those details of the broadcast. I only. I only think it kind of stands to hurt the product if they. If they go that direction.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot because Portland is in a kind of arena dispute because the NBA and I think ownership that's coming, like, to see $600 million in renovations happen to the Moda Center. But I'm, like, looking around, and so there's like, a big turf war happening. Where's that money going to come from? It seems like it's going to be publicly funded. I, as a taxpayer, don't feel like I should foot that bill, but that's a whole other story.

[Kyle Mann]

Yep, 10 cent can cover that. Right? I mean, they got. They're rolling in it over there. I would say soon.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. If Yang starts starting. Yeah, they. They got that bill start his ass. I just, like, I look around at the. At the Motor center sometime. I'm like, what do people actually want from an arena experience? And they updated the big boards the other day. Those were a little bit dated. Now they're all big, beautiful.

[Kyle Mann]

Those were dated. I was shocked in person to see that that's.

[Justin Varior]

They swapped those out, and I think that was necessary. But at a certain point, I'm just like, this arena has bones and history to it. Like, what do you actually want as an arena experience, if anything? Like, I think Intuit Dome is a completely separate thing. I don't know if anyone's going to, like, fit billions of dollars in order to make as many toilets as humanly possible, but I almost feel like arena should be going more analog and really kind of lean into this anti AI idea where it's like you can only get this experience one way.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

And don't fuck around with screens or anything like that. If anything, I think you should really, as the NBA be considering this more like movies where it's like, yeah, it's more convenient to watch this at home on your digital screen. But doing it with people in a separate way, this communal experience is something different. And if we're doing that without the intrusion of all these like technological fancy pants things, like, I think that's actually better. I almost wonder if the future of the inner arena experience is actually being less technologically advanced, not more forward thinking.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, one can hope. And I think this is one area where to what you're speaking to, Justin. Just like a lot of people in arena ops and game ops, a lot of people who run these buildings and these teams in those capacities have just really misread what the opportunity is. And you're right. It's like you have the chance to draw people's singular focus to an actual physical thing happening right in front of them. Anything you do that says get out your phone to like scan this QR code so you can appear on the Jumbotron or to vote in a poll or to place a bet, like all of that is taking away and not adding to the experience of being in the arena. They can do all that stuff at home. And I think what you need to be offering them is like, why is being here different? And the way it's different is because we're all sharing in it together. Because you're feeling the energy, because you're locked in on the game. And there's ways in which, like to your point about the Intuit Dome, even just like changing the mechanism by with which you would like vote on a Jumbotron poll, from doing it on your phone to a button on your armrest like they have at the Intuit Dome, I think is a smart like analogization of that idea. Like how do we turn a digital process into a button? And I think that more teams need to like put more thought into that kind of process. How do we put people in this seat doing things that they can only do in this seat?

[Justin Varior]

All right, why don't we take one more break and we talk about the tanking stuff that came out of the Silver press conference.

[Rob Mahoney]

My day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym, pre K pickup back home to meal prep. Time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius.

[Kyle Mann]

Gotta keep the lights on.

[Rob Mahoney]

When the three Alarm hits. I'm ready. Celsius Lift Fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate [e-mail].

[Kyle Mann]

We heard you.

[Justin Varior]

Nine years of bring back the snack.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wrap and you've won.

[Kyle Mann]

But maybe you should have asked for more.

[Justin Varior]

Say hello to the hot honey snack wrap. Now you've really won.

[Rob Mahoney]

Go to McDonald's and get it while you can.

[Justin Varior]

So the big top line item coming out of Adam Silver's State of the Union address, he gives a few of these every year. One at at All Star, one at the finals, something at summer league. There's a couple of these which I think are important, if only to kind of track where the league is heading. At the very least, the questions being asked I think kind of hit the hot button topics that we're all kind of talking around, especially these days. How are you guys feeling about tanking after this big full throated week of everybody complaining, but I think that's a good place to start.

[Rob Mahoney]

I wish I could say I felt dramatically more confident than anything meaningful will be done. And I. I don't think I really feel that way.

[Justin Varior]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

And a lot of that is most Adam Silver press conferences in my experience have the same sort of like mealy mouth affect of. I'm going to say what I need to say to sort of swipe this idea aside. You bring up Giannis and Kalshee, I'm going to say he only owns a minute percentage of the company and therefore it's not an actual issue. You bring up tanking, I'm going to acknowledge it's a very serious issue in a very like, politician manner. And I'm just like waiting for the movement and I'm waiting for the ideas and that stuff has been like reported and behind the scenes and unsourced and all that. That's great. I feel like we're in that cycle as we have been with expansion for a long time, where it's like we're starting a committee to organize a study to potentially investigate and think about doing expansion. No, the tanking problem has been going on for a long, long time. And it's been not just the Jazz, but the spurs getting Victor Wembanyama in the first place, but like really good and really successful teams who have built their model this way. This is not a new problem. Why are we talking about it as if this is a new problem we're just breaking ground on right now?

[Kyle Mann]

I'm no more optimistic than I was the last time we talked about it because the core, the crux of this here is that I don't know how you protect the competitive balance of the league, which I'm sure we'll talk more about that in detail. With a lot of these ideas, I don't know how you protect that. And, and without. I just. And also protect the idea of teams that need the help. Like, that's the thing that's getting distorted. These, These franchises that sincerely do need help, that have a lack of talent, are trying to game it. You know, I don't see how you can disrupt those. Those two things are just in. In cohesion together are just such a tricky balance. And, you know, over this past week, I've heard, you know, I've heard so many different ideas, and it's like every single one that comes back, you're just, It's. You're. Every time you make some kind of provision to fix, you know, the black market, you just. It's like this. In any arena of civilization, whenever you, Whenever you try to fix any kind of a black market, you change the terms. You just establish a new one. And, you know, in sports, it's. A lot of times it's cheating. You hear that they'll make rules. Well, it's just like the cheating's gonna adapt whenever. Or like piracy is a funny one, you know, like, well, we figured out this way to fix piracy. It's like it's always going to be one step ahead, so people are going to figure out how to game the system. I have not been encouraged by the ideas that I've heard that they're going to, like, restructure that in any meaningful way. I don't know you guys feel any different.

[Justin Varior]

I agree. I think we could talk to you through some of the options on the table there, but I ultimately disagree that I think they're going to, at the very least, try to do something more extreme than they have in the past, if only because the black eye is just so pronounced. Over the past couple of weeks, there have been just so much of a blowback. I think, just strictly from a PR standpoint in terms of, like, the bottom line level, I think to not do something at this point really sacrifices and perhaps could impact the actual, like, money coming in. Like, we're talking integrity of the league. And like, I think people have scapegoated the Jazz this week.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Justin Varior]

In part because they are the big shining example of tanking this this year. And I don't have many tears for the Jazz because they did do it in a very extreme way. And it's not just this year they broke down the Donovan Mitchell, Rudy Gobert team tanked and then decided that wasn't enough of the tank. So we're going to tank on. On top of the tank. On top of the tank.

[Kyle Mann]

Can I comment on the jazz thing just really quickly here? Okay, so the defense of the tanking from the. And I have enjoyed watching the sarcasm on that word. I have enjoyed watching the Death Star, of all the little things coming together and just creating one big beam of defense on social media from the. Chaz, here's my thing. Don't try to, like, explain it with gymnastics. You need to just take the mental gymnastics or whatever it is. Just take the Will Wade. I don't know if you guys are familiar with Will Wade. Will Wade was this guy for LSU who got caught cheating for the basketball team. And he basically was like, you know, there was no getting around it. And Will Wade was just like, do something about it. He was just defiant. He was just like, whatever. You know, didn't apologize. Just do that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Jaz, That's.

[Kyle Mann]

That's what I would say. If you're going to defend it, just take the Will Wade approach. That was my whole thing. Don't try to. We know what happened.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Kyle Mann]

So continue. Just.

[Rob Mahoney]

I can't understand the frustration from anyone who's a jazz fan or jazz adjacent to what you were talking about, jv, of like, why are we. Why are we on, like, holding the banner for this thing that has been going on for years and years. Hard.

[Justin Varior]

I understand that the guy that pushed last.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Justin Varior]

And they just got caught by the refs. And I. And I get that.

[Rob Mahoney]

And got fined, we should say, $500,000 for their kind of manipulation of their rotation as a result, like, not an insignificant penalty, but ultimately not one that really matters if you get Darren Peterson.

[Kyle Mann]

So. And. And the Thunder, of all people. That was funny, too. I mean, that was. That was hilarious.

[Justin Varior]

But to show you the subterfuge and, like, the game within the game that's happening, as everyone's just the Crying tank and all this other stuff. Meanwhile, other teams are trying to make sure that they just get the best possible pick out of this fucker. Getting caught for trying to get the best possible pick. Just to show you the level of, like, just. People are just so cutthroat in professional sports. But to get back to the, like, kind of overall conversation, I think something is going to happen as a result of this. I would hope it happens as soon as this summer. We'll see. I think the Question is like what they end up doing. To Kyle's point, I do find it particularly naughty issue in order to find a more meaningful solution here, but not one that completely upends the entire league as we know of it. Rob, you've always talked about just abolishing the draft entirely.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely.

[Justin Varior]

I feel like that's in the air more these days. I wouldn't mind it if I felt confident that it ultimately would solve the issue. I'm just like, I find it difficult to wrap my arms around the potential side effects and everything else of doing it. Even like the practical implication of like how do we even get to this? Like who gets like how many slots do you get? As for rookies, who gets the advantage of getting those guys? It's just a free market and everyone could just outspend each other like baseball.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean this is naughty. I think there's a lot of permutations as far as what it could look like. I think the reasonable ones are probably that it would look a lot like normal NBA free agency in a lot of ways. Which is to say yes, there are definite limits on how much teams can spend overall. And within that you give teams an allotment of a rookie exception that changes depending on how much you lost last season. So rather than get the number one overall pick, you get the biggest exception to the salary cap or however you want to define that to spend on rookies. And I think what it does is a bunch of different things. One, we eliminate a system by which an 18 or 19 year old kid by and large coming into the league is just arbitrarily assigned. You live in Boston, now you live in Miami, now you live in Charlotte, now you live in Minneapolis. With no say really whatsoever from them. They can try to work the lines and you know, their agents can ultimately like try to maneuver them into a particular spot. I think it's not only the overall approach that would deal with tanking most effectively because it takes out the primary motivation for tanking, which is getting the pick to definitively get the guy you want. And it forces teams to actually be appealing to players and it tells us right out of the gate something about those players as they come into the NBA. Wouldn't it be interesting if Cooper flag enters into rookie free agency and decides to join the Minnesota Timberwolves decides to join the New York Knicks decides to join like the Oklahoma City Thunder for the, the minimum salary. Like you would be telling us something about these guys out of the gate and what's important to them. And I just don't think the most qualified and most talented young players in the world are all going to sign up to be Luka Doncic, his backup. I just don't think they're going to do that. And so overall, the concern that, you know, the Lakers or the Knicks or whoever are going to dominate this process, I find it to be unpersuasive because we see it in real free agency all the time. Players going all over the place based off of money, based off of opportunity, based off of the fact that those. Those situations mean something to them for whatever reason.

[Kyle Mann]

Oh, where to begin with this?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, please.

[Kyle Mann]

I just. Number one, that, like the boohooing about being told where you're going to go. The NBA is like, there's a hierarchy of. There's a. The. You earn your sort of your seniority in the NBA to the point where you can, you know, choose where you want to go and get that bigger contract. Those are things that you earn.

[Rob Mahoney]

So you ear an agency dude.

[Kyle Mann]

I mean, it's a trade off. Like, I'm just saying you. You end up. You're making a lot of money. I don't think that that's the most brutal trade off of all time. It's a very. It's a lifestyle that is demanding of you. And, and I understand all of those things. And it takes a lot of work to, to, you know, stay at the top or stay at the level of an NBA player, whatever. I'm not trying to diminish that. But I just think the thing that the biggest problem is just, I don't. You were talking about people choosing not to sign up for Luca. I'm just like. I just feel like the, the class system in college sports, it's different than the NBA where there's definitely a class system in the NBA insofar as, you know, the free agent market like we were talking about, LA is always going to have a huge advantage over Utah or, you know what? Xyz. Smaller market, less desirable place. I just think that, like, in the NBA there's at least a sprinkle of hope that there is this way to balance the scales in terms of who can get an elite talent. Would somebody choose to go to San Antonio? It's a great city. I don't know if it'd be at the top. It's. It's definitely cosmopolitan. So I'm not trying to launch into another San Antonio debate here, but I'm just saying I just think the competitive balance thing would be. It would be a big problem. And I. And you know, these markets that are more desirable, they could see a Darren Peterson a year and a half because the. They scout these guys two or three years ahead, they're planning for them in a lot of situations with their rosters and whatever it is that they do. And I just can't see. See how that would work because you'd have the Lakers getting a Darren Peterson pretty frequently. I think they would be figuring out how to do that. I just don't see. I don't see how it works, man. I'm, I'm not. I'm not in favor of a ball. I think.

[Justin Varior]

I think we have the data back dating back to free agency, when it was in its inception, that there have been pockets where players have prioritized other things. But by and large, they've happened in part because those bigger markets were just not viable options. I'm thinking Back to the LaMarcus Aldridge free agency or the Kamal Anthony where it's just like, like certain teams just didn't have it. The Lakers didn't have it at that point. The Clippers, the Nets, the Knicks, when those teams are just completely. Just not options, then the other teams start to come to the fore. By and large, though, players will go there if there's any sort of opportunity to do so. And so maybe they would reach a saturation point after three to four years. But at that point, like, you would have the starting five of the Showtime Lakers basically assembled. Because if we just go back to the past two drafts, like, would Cooper flag. Just immediately sign with the Lakers? Would Darren Peterson, A.J. deBon said, if they had free will, just go. And then all of a sudden it's, It's Luka. The three best players in the draft.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wouldn't you like to know?

[Justin Varior]

I think it would be cool. That's. That's fair. But I just don't. This is actually a good point. Like, is the NBA trying to sell a national product or make the local markets viable on the national stage? Does it matter ultimately to the bottom line of the NBA? Because especially as RSNs go away and as revenue sharing probably fronts the bill for a lot of what some of these smaller markets are doing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

How much does it matter ultimately that Utah can compete on the level of the Lakers? They have to sell that silver does to Utah because they're, they're paying billions of dollars in fees in order to get into the league. But does it actually matter?

[Rob Mahoney]

Here's the thing is, like, all of these markets that we're worried about, the people who are running those Teams and the people who own those teams cry foul constantly, that the deck is already stacked against them in this way, that they are already at a loss as to how to compete with the Lakers. So what is the problem that we're trying to, like, so delicately preserve here? Like, the system is bad. The system doesn't work.

[Kyle Mann]

I don't like that logic. I just don't.

[Rob Mahoney]

I. I just. I don't think it works as constructed. And we have these two. We have all of these elephants in the room, including tanking, but not limited to that, that I think ultimately just eliminating the draft could straight up solve.

[Kyle Mann]

I think this is a huge fucking elephant that you're like, we have all these elephants. What's one more elephant? This is one of the bigger ones. This is one of the bigger ones.

[Rob Mahoney]

The elephant, to be clear, is that tanking has an outsized impact on the league, and it has for a long time. And we've just accepted that as a way of life because the draft has existed. And, like, we are in that state of like, oh, this is the thing we know and understand is that teams have to be very bad to potentially get very good players. That doesn't mean it has to be that way. That doesn't mean we have to pretend that that's the only viable option when free agency literally exists. It's already part of the NBA. We are all. It's already a market economy. So why are we pretending that that's the thing that's going to sink it?

[Justin Varior]

I think it turns a disadvantage into, like, it makes a lot of these teams just not viable.

[Kyle Mann]

It will turn some of these teams into wilderness. Like, it will.

[Rob Mahoney]

Which. Which ones. Which ones.

[Kyle Mann]

Which player is going to. It would have to be a special circumstance for Cooper Flag to pick or Cooper Flag. You're right about. It would reveal something about players personalities that it's like, well, if you're just a loser, if you're gonna. But players like money, players that win like, money. Those overlaps do occur. I'm just like, how often is like. Or you just. I'm putting myself in the position. Memphis has awesome culture. Love that city. I'm just like, yeah, New Orleans, Orlando. How many of the. Like, how many of these guys are gonna be choosing.

[Rob Mahoney]

These are the teams that are at the. Like, not Orlando, but like, Utah, New Orleans, Sacramento. Like, the teams you're worried about are already at the bottom of the standings every year. They are already in a bad place.

[Kyle Mann]

Utah's highest points in their history have been so treasured because of the careful roster building that they did through the draft to build the best teams that they've ever had. And if you're telling me that in this other reality that they're going to be able to lure, I just don't see it, man. I don't. I think you've got to find a way to fix. Granted, I'm a cynical, skeptical person in general. Like, don't look to me as a beacon of light for whether this can get fixed, but I think they have to fight someone smarter than me. There are plenty of those people around. Somebody's going to have to fix it. I just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I think if a team can't appeal to a player, why they should sign there, that player shouldn't sign there. And so the idea that we're just kind of designating based on draft orders that you go there now does not really make sense to me. And there's lots of ways to do it. One of them is like, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, Justin. Like, all things being equal, yes, guys will gravitate toward a certain market, in particular la. All things are not equal. And the amount of money.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, says the guy who just moved out.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I'm not being paid millions of dollars to live here, I can assure you. But. But like, I think money is still the primary motivating factor. And if you're talking about, yeah, you can join the Lakers on the literal minimum or you can make 10 times that playing for even the Sacramento Kings, I think you're going to see a wider range of decision making than you guys are letting on here.

[Justin Varior]

That will be interesting. I'm curious though, Kyle is someone who's been through the wars recently of the nil sort of generation, does the open market just perhaps lead to a bunch of other parties coming in and trying to pay guys under the door? Does this become a wild west even in the interim where it's just impossible to get your arms around? Because then let's say Cooper, flag, New Balance just wants him in LA for whatever reason. Or maybe they want him in Boston just because it's close to their offices and they're like, you will sign a minimum to play next to Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown, but we're going to pay you $50 million under the table every year. We're going to give you the internship deal that we gave to you.

[Kyle Mann]

Bill's like, signed me up for this New Balance stock.

[Justin Varior]

But Cooper in Boston, that's not an unrealistic possibility in this format.

[Kyle Mann]

Black market, that's what I'm saying. I mean, I say I'm probably not a good example because Kentucky has the most expensive roster in the country and just threw money. I mean kids followed the money, A lot of kids did. And you know, but I just, I.

[Rob Mahoney]

Don'T know if I don't.

[Kyle Mann]

Nil is. I don't know if it's really a great comparison. It's like speaking to the thing about these big markets are just going to like, if they know a generational talent like a Wimby is coming, there's going to have a bunch of guys on one year deals and like they'll plan ahead for that and then, and then try to get it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Sounds a lot like the market we already have.

[Kyle Mann]

Like, but not with the draft. Like, you know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, like cap space doesn't exist in a meaningful form to sign for agents anymore. Just like not the way that teams operate. And so I don't really see a harm in tapping back into that idea of a market, but just applying it to rookies instead. Like if teams aren't going to be using their cap space to sign players in free agency, like that's not really a thing, then let's create another avenue for teams to actually appeal to these players.

[Justin Varior]

See, that's where I think the tanking part of this probably comes into play. Because if it is a free market and let's say Cooper Flag is coming into the league, you'll see teams raising their rosters down to beyond process levels where Tony, Tony Roten type is taking 50 shots a game. If only because you're trying to preserve the cap space in order to funnel a 2 Cooper in the next year. You will still get very bad teams trying to load up with as much money as possible, possibly. And they will probably have an understanding beforehand.

[Rob Mahoney]

That was a nice catch.

[Justin Varior]

That's goddamn right.

[Rob Mahoney]

You should be watching this on a video format because Justin just saved his laptop in real time.

[Justin Varior]

Mostly your laptop.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank you for that.

[Justin Varior]

But I guess it's fascinating to think about the possibilities. For me, this just feels a little too unwieldy. And it does, I think, nuke potentially a couple teams off the board. You can get into the conversation where it's like, I also love Memphis. I lived in New Orleans. Like I'm not saying anything about those places specifically, but NBA players by and large do not want to go there, live there.

[Kyle Mann]

That's what we're talking about. Yeah, I mean move those franchises. Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

I've had the idea where every team should play in only big markets. Yeah, you only play in LA. Miami, NY.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is not a good idea.

[Justin Varior]

Chicago. Every other market's gone, and we just name them something weird.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, I.

[Justin Varior]

That's. That's kind of where we're headed there. Because you would have to level the playing field.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, I think the counterpoint is teams like the Pacers, where it's like, if you are a rookie coming into the league and you have the opportunity to play for a team that just went to the NBA Finals in a small market. Yeah, maybe you're not a cold weather kind of person. Yeah, maybe Indianapolis isn't your first choice of city. Like, you want to win and you see, maybe you see an opportunity. Maybe you're a starting small forward and you're like, I think I can beat out Aaron Neesmith over time. I think if I had that opportunity, I could be something to a team that could go to the finals this year. And I think that, like, getting. Having to bear your soul coming into the league and having teams have to actually pitch you on why you should sign with them. Them matters more to me, and I think the payoffs are higher than anything about the current system.

[Justin Varior]

All right, well, we'll be tracking this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very closely as it does not happen.

[Justin Varior]

It never even gets on the table.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's.

[Kyle Mann]

It is like, it's a competent, well thought out alternative to what we're doing. And I understand people are like, well, they can explain it. I just. There's just a few catching, like, catch points for me that are just cascading failure, like, would ruin the. Would hurt the league really badly.

[Rob Mahoney]

In a lot of ways, it's possible. Like, I'm not ruling out the fact that there could be terrible outcomes. I just think we're living in a world of pretty terrible outcomes when it relates to draft order in general.

[Justin Varior]

Rob's just like, why even deal with this? We have global warming to attack first. No, no, no, no.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not even saying it in that sense. I'm saying, like, it's already bad. Let's try to fix it rather than be paralyzed by the possibility that things could also be bad if we don't try to fix it.

[Justin Varior]

Well, at the end of the day, we have a reasonably cool All Star game, so we certainly do.

[Kyle Mann]

And I'm rooting for the world. I want to reiterate that, yes, we're.

[Justin Varior]

All rooting for the world in our own special ways.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

All right, why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Isaiah Blakely, Victoria Valencia, Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Thursday. Schedule changing, so not Wednesday. We'll be back on Thursday. We'll talk to you then.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sam.