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- [00:00]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
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- [00:40]
Logan Murdoch
Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck and the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one, your buddy, your sister. Ones who always show up, they're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something and maybe you've got it. Chevrolet together.
- [01:00]
Raj Bell
Let's drive.
- [01:01]
Logan Murdoch
Visit chevy.com trucks to explore the lineup.
- [01:13]
Raj Bell
What's good, what's poppin? Logan Murdoch here for Real ones. Myself, Howard Beck, get into a great discussion about spurs and Pistons and what that means for the league. A great conversation on team building and face of the league talk, tanking talk. It's all there. Then we get in the mailbag where we talk about other stuff that was really also very, very exciting. Talk about questions about the draft, talked about some other stuff. Awards season, it was great. It was awesome. We vibed. Just an old school real ones with Howard Beck and Raj Bell. My dudes, I have nothing else. Cliff, play the theme music. What's poppin? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here, Rajabel there. Howard Beck is also here. We are here to talk about real basketball. Raja, are your brain cells back from days after talking about get off my dickerson? Have you. Have you repaired?
- [02:20]
Logan Murdoch
Come on.
- [02:21]
Raj Bell
Come on.
- [02:23]
Howard Beck
The hell did I miss Friday?
- [02:26]
Logan Murdoch
Don't do that.
- [02:26]
Howard Beck
Don't start it.
- [02:27]
Logan Murdoch
Come on.
- [02:30]
Howard Beck
I'm out for one show and like,
- [02:32]
Raj Bell
I just wanted to make sure you recovered.
- [02:36]
Logan Murdoch
I'm good.
- [02:37]
Howard Beck
I don't want to know.
- [02:40]
Logan Murdoch
I'm good. I appreciate it, though.
- [02:42]
Raj Bell
Okay, cool. We had a bit of a discussion. Howard.
- [02:45]
Logan Murdoch
That conversation did fry me, man. I found very few times do I find myself after the pod thinking about what I said on the pod or the conversation on the pod. Like it's usually just a little part of my day and I keep it moving. I was on that almost all day. So, yeah, I'm good now, though.
- [03:03]
Raj Bell
Yeah. Before we get into Piston, spurs reaction, Howard, do you have any final thoughts on get off my Dickerson and Burner accounts.
- [03:12]
Howard Beck
No, I think we can move on. Thank you.
- [03:14]
Logan Murdoch
Okay.
- [03:14]
Raj Bell
Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's talk about the Pistons and the Spurs. Monday night matchup. A finals preview maybe, huh? Maybe, maybe not. Who? We'll see where the spurs won 114, 103 in pretty convincing fashion down the stretch. They ended their. Ending the five game win streak that the Pistons had coming into the game. I think the spurs have won nine straight. This is one of the games that are really fun late in the season when you get two teams like this from opposite conferences that don't necessarily play against each other a lot, but they both have finals aspirations and they're actually playing for something down the stretch in a time where we have try to disincentivize that. We'll get back to that in a moment. But what did this mean for. For both teams? I'm gonna start with. Start with Howard. What did you think this, this, this game meant for both team by extension? What did it mean for the spurs who want it?
- [04:12]
Howard Beck
I think it probably meant more for Detroit kind of coming to grips with where their potential weaknesses are than it did for San Antonio in terms of affirming anything, right? Like the spurs, once they, like, kicked around the Thunder a few times back in December, were like, all right, we're here, we're good, we're in this thing. And we all took notice and we all said, yeah, they're in this thing and they're an actual contender. Their record says it. Their net rating suggests that. Every stat suggests it. Their personnel suggests it. Um, so we already knew San Antonio's in this, and we already knew, like, Detroit is the leading team in the Eastern Conference and on track for potentially their first conference finals appearance in, you know, over a decade, and should be the favorites to win the East. With some caveats, right? So it was Detroit that went into that game that I think it was, it was the Pistons who needed it more in terms of, of gauging themselves and. Which is a weird thing to say, right? Neither of these teams has won a playoff series in forever. They're both kind of just now arriving. They're both really young, but it feels like the spurs are more established and stable at this level. And, and, and look, the part of that is because of who they've beaten, and part of it is because they've been dominant in a really tough Western Conference, whereas the Pistons are leading an Eastern Conference that we've been saying since the off season was, you know, either wide open or just kind of A jumble and it's still kind of a jumble. And the spurs just also feel closer to a finished product. We can get into that. Like I think the Pistons in seeing in the way they got manhandled last night and granted Isaiah Stewart's not playing, you know, who knows what, what difference he might have made. But two weaknesses we knew about the Pistons, not a great three point shooting team. That was a huge part of last night's loss. No secondary shot creator to help out Kate Cunningham. That was a big part of last night's loss. And you know, I think they probably walk away feeling like, all right, we, we know where we have to improve now, but those might be things you have to address in the off season. You're not, you're not, you're not fixing those personnel issues in late February.
- [06:21]
Raj Bell
Raja. When the biggest thing that we've, you know, talked about with the Pistons is their physicality and they were trying to be physical very, very early on with Wimby. And I think that that's kind of a, a young player anointment type of thing, right? Where whenever there's a young star, you know, either established teams or teams in general just try to get physical with them, to take them out of their game. Wimby is the rare player that is just like taking it on the chin. It's like, I, I, I'm not, you can't punk me because I am not a punk. Right. And he seemed to kind of take on the challenge one and then two, just really take it to the Pistons down the stretch. My question to you is when you talk, and we alluded to this earlier, when you talk about a Pistons teams that's really reliant on, you know, guard play and getting downhill, how instructive is a game like this against a Spurs team who is, has so much athleticism, has so much length and has a generational rip protector in Wimy who by the way had six blocks and including some of the like greatest blocks I've ever seen last night. And that tends to be what Wimy does on a nightly basis. But how instructive, adding to what Beck said, how instructive is that to what they need this Pistons need to do in the interim right now to kind of mitigate those things because if you get to the Western Conference, there's so many other teams like the spurs with length and athleticism.
- [07:50]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, well, I mean, to Howard's point, I mean it highlights for sure. If you're sitting around this morning, you know, in the Detroit offices, you Certainly understand where you're flawed and a team like the spurs will highlight that. How you can go about changing that at this point in the season, I don't know. You either have the personnel and the players or you don't. A team that lives in the paint like Detroit, likes to live in the paint the way they want to play is a terrible matchup for a team like the spurs or against a team like the Spurs. If you need to be in there and have a certain amount of productivity and shooting percentage in and around that rim from a night to night basis, if you have to live off of that, it's going to be harder and harder and harder to do that. Against teams like OKC and especially the spurs who really command that paint defensively, what you want to do to them is what San Antonio did to Detroit to start the game, which is attack that paint because you know, that's what you do and get two feet in and then spray it. But you know, the spurs had capable three point shooting that made Detroit pay for, for collapsing defensively and Detroit just doesn't have that personnel right now. That, that would be, you know, the instructive, hey, this is what we need to be able to do against teams with that type of length and defensive presence. But you have to have the personnel to do that. And maybe, maybe it's a mind shift change for some of them, but like that's what we need to do. We need to look to get into the paint and when we are in there and they are collapsing, not, not look to finish everything in the paint, but look to like kick it back out, start rotations and then find wide open shooters and then we got to be able to convert. And that is just personnel. Or we either have it or we don't.
- [09:44]
Raj Bell
Let's. I want to stand the spurs real quick. And back to you, Raja. Michael Grady of NBC, who has done a really great job as a, as a play by play guy, ended the game saying that the spurs, some say the spurs are ahead of schedule, but they were trying to be right on time. And we talk about, you know, ahead of schedule and trying to be in a team like the spurs, who are probably playing with house money at this point. But what is the biggest difference you've seen from them in the beginning of the season to right now where they're winning nine straight and are kind of peaking at just the right time? How dangerous can they be?
- [10:21]
Logan Murdoch
Well, I mean, they could be really, really dangerous. They are really, really dangerous. They, they've, they've knocked off the best team in the league multiple times this year. They seem to have their number. They just, they just went to the best team in the East. And I think for me, I mean, we already knew that the east was a little lighter, if you will, in terms of overall upper end talent teams or opportunity to win championship teams in the West. But I think last night highlighted that even more. Right. Like the best, the best couple of teams are out in the Western Conference. They look like they've fallen into a belief that only comes with having played X amount of games and haven't had the success that they had. Like, I think when they came out earlier this year, you know, there were some injuries. They were trying to figure some things out. They were in belief mode, but maybe not sure that you believe yet. Like, that typically happens with teams. It's weird. You come out and everybody says, hey, we believe. Championship, like, 1, 2, 3, let's go. You know, everyone believes, but you're not sure you believe until you actually put that on wax, right? Until you've played 20, 30 games, you've seen the results, you've knocked off the better teams, you've had those trials and tribulations, and now you're sitting there after the All Star break saying, hey, bro, like, we come into your building, you know, we really believe. And so I think the seasoning that you want to see from a team that you think has a chance to win a championship is starting to develop for San Antonio in that way now. You know, postseason is a different animal, but I think you see a much more seasoned team that believes and knows that they can get it done in a way that they may not have earlier in the season.
- [11:56]
Raj Bell
Yeah, Howard, I think about, like, this, I, I see them on the trajectory of right now where OKC was and maybe like 20, 24, right where they, they, They're. They're. They're playing really well as a regular season team, but they still need to go through the trials and tribulations of a postseason, like Raja said. But that may mean that they, you know, maybe lose maybe around earlier than we expect. What do you think about their, the Spurs? What do you think about how they set up going into this postseason where when you get to this level, you think that, you know, you can't be invisible getting all the way through. How do they learn on the fly and how confident are you that they can learn on the fly and in a postseason setting? And how is that maybe different or the same as OKC of yesteryear or what we've Seen with teams that have pushed the button and have had a chance at a title.
- [12:57]
Howard Beck
It's a really young core, and based on, like, you know, decades of NBA precedent, we would normally say the spurs need to take their lumps first, right? They haven't been in the playoffs with this group. Wemby hasn't been in the NBA playoffs. Castle, Harper, Vassell, Keldon Johnson. But Darren Fox obviously is a really important part of this team, and he's got at least some postseason experience from Sacramento. And Harrison Barnes has been around, and Luke Cornett has been around. Like, there are some veterans around, the young guys. But of those guys, Fox is really the only one with, you know, a lot of just notches on his belt, but again, not in the postseason, but he's at least been around. I don't know that that axiom matters anymore. The whole, like, youth can't win thing. You got to take your lumps. Like, the Thunder were the youngest team in, like, modern NBA history.
- [13:47]
Raj Bell
They took their lumps, though. To your point, though. Like, they took their lumps.
- [13:49]
Howard Beck
The Thunder had one. They had one playoff victory, one playoff series victory prior to winning the championship, right? Like they had done.
- [13:58]
Raj Bell
That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. They took. They took their lumps going into this. Even this championship run, right? They went to the play, and then they went into, you know, a postseason where they maybe didn't get as far as we thought they could go.
- [14:09]
Howard Beck
But if you go back 10 years and 15, 20, 25, 30, it was always like, make the playoffs, get your ass kicked. You know, eventually win around, get your ass kicked, come back, make the conference. It wasn't literally round by round, but you usually had to have, like, two or three postseason experience runs before you finally broke through and got to the finals, much less won a championship. The Thunder skipped 50 steps because they're just so damn talented and because we were in a time of. Of just unprecedented parody. So I don't think we should apply any of the past, you know, rules to the spurs at this stage. I think they could go all the way. I think they can go to the finals. I think they can win the championship. I think whoever comes out of the west is winning the championship anyway. So if it's the spurs, it's almost by definition winning it all. I don't think it's impossible. I mean, we're sitting here late February. Shay Gilders Alexander and Jalen Williams are both banged up and not playing. The Thunder are. Are looking much more Vulnerable just in general, even before those guys got hurt than they were earlier in the season. Winning a championship takes a toll. All the miles, all that stuff. The Nuggets have been kind of meh since Jokic got back, and they're still waiting on Aaron Gordon, so they've got injury and health concerns. Timberwolves, do we believe? Do we not believe? I think they're in this, but I. I think on talent, they're a little notch behind the other three that I just mentioned, and that's pretty much the four in the West. I don't think it's crazy to think the spurs can come out of the west, and I think if they do, then whoever they're facing, they are better then because the west is better than. Than the East. And so, yeah, they are ahead of schedule by any standards, historic or otherwise. But, like, I don't. I don't think there's any ceiling on this team right now. They've just got so many weapons. You know, we, like, we talk all the time about wembanyama, but like, dear, that. That guard trio of, of. Of Fox and Castle and Harper make it a, you know, a quartet, right? Like, Vassell had as many threes last night as the entire Pistons. Like, they're really talented, and Keldon Johnson comes off the benches and is super explosive and physical and attacking the basket. They've just got a lot of different ways to beat you at both ends. I like. I don't look at the spurs and think there's anything in particular missing other than experience, which might not matter.
- [16:31]
Raj Bell
Yeah, let's get to. I'll go ahead.
- [16:34]
Logan Murdoch
I just want to. I want to. I want to just follow up because I, I would agree with you, Howard, and that's kind of, to some degree, what I was trying to say about believing. Right? Like the lumps that you talk about Logan and the lumps that I typically would talk about with. With teams that they would. And the dues that they have to pay in the playoffs, you know, at least historically, you got to get over some trials and tribulations, like you said, and then we've lost a series. That's all belief, right? Like, until you get over the hump of believing that you can get that done. And I, And I see them in. In. In a. In a light now where having knocked off who they've knocked off, especially the way they have knocked off okc, I don't think. I don't think that could you have some situational issues pop up in the playoffs with the pressure 100%. But overall I don't think they're going to have an issue either in terms of having to get over humps in the playoffs. I think they believe in that way.
- [17:29]
Raj Bell
Yeah. I mean, adding to that, I agree with you guys because you know, I just saw Denver the other night and they're dealing with injuries, right? And at the two teams that match up with San Antonio, the best right now in the Western Conference that theoretically should give them problems right now is Denver and okc. We saw what they did with okc and I'm not sure at this point that Denver is going to be healthy enough at this point. And also if they are healthy, trying to find that continuity. You see what I did there in time during a stretch round and figured themselves out in this new version, right? But also I can't bet against Jokic. That's I think the bigger wild card to me for San Antonio is playing against Denver more than it is playing against against OKC at this particular point because I just don't know what. I just haven't seen it yet. I don't know what wimby's going to do with Jokic over a seven game series as opposed to this episode is
- [18:26]
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- [18:53]
Logan Murdoch
I'm not an astronaut.
- [18:54]
Howard Beck
I don't need an astronaut.
- [18:56]
Raj Bell
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Logan Murdoch
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Raj Bell
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Logan Murdoch
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Raj Bell
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Logan Murdoch
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Raj Bell
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- [19:23]
Howard Beck
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- [19:26]
Raj Bell
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- [19:33]
Howard Beck
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- [19:35]
Raj Bell
Just so many good brands because there's always something new. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack okc. San Antonio matches up so well with them and okc's best player is a guard, which means that, which means that he is going to be SGA is going to be in the same position that Cade was last night to where he's going downhill. He's going to have to play against length and athleticism. That's been really, really hard for him. I think that if San Antonio gets the right side of the bracket, I think they can cruise. If, if, if that, if that's the case, we'll see what happens. But one of the other. Let's take a quick break and I want to talk about what this matchup means for team building as a whole in the NBA and how that should be a blueprint for the rest of the league. All right. And we are back. I'm gonna stick on the spurs and the Pistons. Two years ago, these teams were lottery teams, Howard. And now they are competing for titles. What does this say about the NBA as we know it now in this current apron era? And what blueprint is this setting for the rest of the league?
- [20:58]
Howard Beck
Don't hate me, people, for what I'm about to say. Don't hate me.
- [21:02]
Raj Bell
Oh, famous last words.
- [21:06]
Howard Beck
What this is telling us clearly is that tanking works.
- [21:13]
Logan Murdoch
I'm sorry, I knew I hate you.
- [21:16]
Howard Beck
I mean, this is, this is why teams tank. Like, do we have plenty of examples of tanking also not working? Sure. In fact, for most of the last 15 years for the Pistons, tanking has not worked. But tanking works. And these two teams are emblematic of it. And this is why teams are still doing it. And it's why at the board of Governors meetings, they're always hesitant, especially in smaller markets or non glamour markets, they're hesitant to scrap the draft or scrap the lottery or scrap the system. Because if you could just be bad for a few years and draft well, you can do this. So the spurs have been a lottery team for six straight years. The Pistons were a lottery team prior to last year for five straight seasons, but also notably for 13 of the 13 out of 16 years. So they were, they were there a long time, but it's the last five that mattered. Right? So here's how the Pistons were built. Kate Cunningham, number one pick in 2021. Sar Thompson, number five pick in 2023. Ron Holland, fifth pick in 2024. So there's three top five picks. Jalen Duran was the 13th pick in 2022 and was not their pick. It was actually a Hornets pick that was traded to the Knicks who then traded it to the Pistons. The Knicks, in their defense, were clearing
- [22:24]
Raj Bell
cap they kind of looked up on that one, baby. They kind of looked up on that one.
- [22:28]
Howard Beck
The Knicks should have found a different way to clear cap room because Jalen Duran turned out to be really good, clearly, and would be awesome in New York if he were there. But it was part of their cap clearing to Chase Brunson. So things turned out okay for the Knicks. They were justified. Isaiah Stewart, 16th in the 2020 draft. That was actually a Portland pick that went to Houston and then to Detroit. That was a Christian Wood trade, by the way. That's fun. And then there's like a bunch of guys free agency, right? Tobias Harris, Caris Lavert, Javante Green, Paul Reed was a waiver claim from the Sixers. They get Duncan Robinson in a minor trade with Miami. Danis Jenkins, two way player. So like the Pistons, like there's some good victories here along the way too, right? Lower picks mid round picks, a two way player in Jenkins. But the core of this is like getting Cade. Like if Cade is an MVP candidate right now, a strong one and he was a number one overall pick. So there's your tanking case. And again a star. Thompson and Ron Holland, both fifth overall picks. Spurs Wemby, number one in 2023. Stefan Castle number four in 2024. Dylan Harper, second overall pick in 2025. They get Dear and Fox in a trade with the Kings because the Kings are stupid. Devin Vassell was the 11th overall pick in 2020. Keldon Johnson, 29th in 2019. Cornette was a free agent. Champagne, waiver claim again from the Sixers. Sixers keep popping up in here. So do the Kings and Bulls in three way trades. Harrison Barnes, the other one. So like yes, a bunch of smart deals along the way, good free agent signings, some minor things like around the edges like good smart front office by both of these teams. But at the core of it, it's because the spurs have Wimy, Castle, Harper. So like you can't get away from the fact that these teams tanked to success. You can't.
- [24:19]
Raj Bell
I will say this though, Howard and I knew you were going to do this. I knew you were going to say this about Tank and how it works. It's not. And we've obviously talked about a lot about this and I. And I. And I've. Which has made me think about the subject even more. I watched. I remember watching the 2223 spurs and that was when they traded Dejante Murray before that season. They were clearly trying to regroup, but they weren't being the Utah Jazz they weren't throwing games. There are levels out of night tonight on a night to night basis. They were, they were actually playing hard and not like getting up 17 points. Right. And doing that. I think it's more of a mindset of what we're talking about too as well of on a night tonight. And same with the Pistons, right. When they were going into that, that cage draft, I'm not mistaken, they were on the back heels of, you know, the Blake Griffin deal, which didn't really work out. It wasn't like they were trying to lose on a year in, yeared out basis. Right. Pistons was a little bit more hubris. They had terrible, just decision making from a front office level and a coaching staff level. Right.
- [25:27]
Logan Murdoch
And.
- [25:27]
Raj Bell
And they get Trajan Langdon in. Who gets credit, I would say for the quick turnaround. But Troy Reaver Weaver made a lot of those picks as well. And I think he should get credit for. For what? For what he did. But I think the Pistons. The Pistons and the spurs, the problem that we have right now is just the blatancy of it. Right. And it's coming on the heels of what's going on with gambling right now. And it makes it look like it's way too blatant, is what I would say. But the taking that you described a couple of years ago is way different than what we're seeing right now in terms of just on a night to night basis where you're just, you're, you're taking out starters. The spurs, they were still building something and you could see that they were building a mindset would pop there. They were building a, an identity. I don't, I'm not sure what Utah is building in terms of good habits. And I think that's the difference here. It's not like you're not chasing picks and stuff. Like it's also the how you do it that's important as well. Roger, you, you, you got a point.
- [26:35]
Logan Murdoch
I really appreciate what you just said. I've never clearly said that because I'm always railing against tanking because I think tanking is a terrible word. If you are building and you have a bunch of young players that aren't equipped to win yet, and you as a front office have elected not to go out and bring in capable pieces around them that give you the chance to win and therefore you find yourself in the lottery over and over again, I'm okay with that. I don't necessarily consider that tanking. You're choosing to build a certain way that that gives you a Better chance at a draft pick. Tanking, to me is when you have the pieces and you could be winning games and you elect in one, whether you're not playing them night after night after night for bogus injuries or in the Utah case, actually are pulling them out of live games to secure a loss. That, for me is where I draw the line. And it becomes really tacky and I start to have these conversations about what are we. What are we teaching, you know, the younger generations about competitiveness and so on and so forth. But, you know, in terms of securing young talent, letting it go out there and lose games as it learns how to win games, I don't necessarily have a problem with that. The other one, to Logan's point, how you go about it, once we start using the T word and tanking and we're making conscious efforts with teams that could win games to lose games, I have a problem with that.
- [28:00]
Raj Bell
I mean, I saw like, we got. Also. Let's not have revisit his history. Like, it wasn't like the. The Pistons were just like actively over the last couple of years were just like, we're going to lose games. They just make terrible decisions. Like signing Monty Williams, when they did right. They were actually trying to win and put pieces in there to actually win. It was just terrible decision making that led to continual, continual lotteries. Remember, we had questions about if Cade was the guy three years ago, if he was the right choice to lead this franchise. Like, I think we're looking at it like, okay, is an MVP candidate now. It wasn't always like that for the Pistons. And I think that we should acknowledge that when we do, the totality of tanking is, Is. Is good for, you know, whatever the league is trying to do.
- [28:47]
Howard Beck
So just a couple definitional things here, then just to, to kind of reset this one is when I say tanking works, and I hate to say it, whether these two teams tanked or not, and there's a lot of nuance in both of these cases, but. And San Antonio definitely, definitely, definitely did some shit along the way. They absolutely did. Even under pop. They absolutely did. The Pistons, the pistols were more a case of it. No, I just mean, I mean, even, even in the more recent one, like, go back to the wimy draft year, like, the spurs were around, don't they. There's no way around this. The spurs, as honorable and wonderful and amazing as the spurs are as an organization, they did some. Let's. Let's not be, let's not get cute about it. The Pistons were More a case of incompetence. Right? And I've always said if I were an NBA team, whether I'm owner for an office or a fan of that team, I would much rather be bad through design, intention, or tanking than through incompetence. Because I, you know, I, I watched for years as the Clippers. During my years in la, the Clippers were just like they were in the lottery every year, but they were shitty every year because they were just incompetent. They drafted poorly, they traded poor, they did everything poorly. And they didn't spend the Wizards for, you know, years and years and years just bad through incompetence. But you also have some selective tanking along the way for, for some of these franchises. And the point of me saying tanking works is both of these teams are built around what will be perennial MVP candidates who were taken number one overall. And that provides the incentive for others to tank that. Whether these teams did or not is, is irrelevant. Tanking works because if you get a bunch of top five picks and if you draft well, yeah, there are busts. But if you drafted well after multiple bites at the apple, you're in business. And these teams are. I do think there's a distinction between these two franchises. To your point, Logan, I think the, the Pistons were more just stumbling around trying to win and not really winning. There is some stuff in their, in their past too, but like the spurs for sure, without a doubt during some of this stretch, during some of their long drought after Kawhi left, some of that was some intentional stuff. And tanking does exist on two different levels, right? Organizationally, you can do it by just destroying your roster, making it impossible for the coach to win, or you can do what the Jazz were most recently find a half million for doing, which was pulling the plug on, on guys in the middle of a game in order to lose. That is the most egregious version. That's why Adam Silver came down so hard on them. That's why the league is, is moving so aggressively right now to try to fix this, this issue once again. But you're right. That's why I said there's, there's levels to this. Right? What the spurs or Pistons did is not anywhere near what the Jazz were guilty of a couple weeks ago. But there's, there's all different ways to, to get yourself higher in the lottery.
- [31:37]
Raj Bell
I mean, we said this on the last podcast too. I mean, I think the league also is speaking out of both sides of its mouth, and it's not Necessarily just the league, but it's the cba, right? Like the CBA makes it, it's so hard to build a sustained
- [31:52]
Howard Beck
team.
- [31:52]
Raj Bell
Right. And it's not going to. What I mean by that is you're, you're always, I was talking to GM the other day, like building a team at this time, you're constantly pivoting. You're. If your team is perpetually in the first round, it's just way too expensive to continue that on with the aprons and, and all of the things and the mechanisms that are put in place for, you know, team building and, and players just circling around the league. Right. And then so either you go, you have to build up through the draft, you can't build with a mid level exception or biannual. Those. That's just, it's just not enough for top end talent. So you have to build through the draft and then. Or you have to pay your, you know, top line talent and players. So there's a real, it's really hard to be able to just sustain throughout a, a ten year path. So it's, it's. On one hand you have a CBA that incentivizes tanking and on the other end you have a, a commissioner that wants to, at least on the face of it, end it. There's no way you're actually going to be able to do that like unless you just. I don't know, I don't know. I don't have an answer for that. I do not have an answer for that. But it, it, I. All I'm making is the point that the CBA is incentivizing it and it's on the commissioner to try to use some sort of mechanisms to at least on the face, save the league from itself. But I think we're just, we're going to continue to see it throughout because this is the really the only way that you can build with young talent because it's so expensive to try to outsource it through trades and you know, other mechanisms of that sort. So I, I just don't know what they do and I feel like we have this conversation all the time. But you're right, Howard. This is, this is a manifestation of a good ethical, sometimes ethical tank. That's all I got. That's all I got. What do you think about the face of the league conversation with this matchup? Right, because we have Cade who is, seems to be on his way to anointment, right. He's about to have the Nike signature shoe and then you have Wimby. Who's Wimby? Where are we at with that? How do. Where do you see these two. I would say, Raja, where do you see these two guys fitting into that impossible mythical conversation?
- [34:22]
Logan Murdoch
It's pretty easy for me. I don't. I don't want to oversimplify it, but, like, w. W is the face of. Wimy's the face of the league moving forward.
- [34:31]
Raj Bell
Yeah, Cade.
- [34:32]
Logan Murdoch
Cade and a bunch of. Not a bunch of, but a few. A handful of other guys are in a subcategory right below him, and they can compete and be. You know, I don't know who you want to call to, you know, whatever that level of player was to the MJ or, or, or, or Bron when he was the face. But like, Wemby is the face of the league moving forward. There's no if, ands, or buts about that. When he's healthy, this and he's doing what he does. The spurs are good. Like, I don't see them as being on the same level in that regard. I do think Cade continues to level up in the conversation of category. Just beneath that, though, we had this
- [35:08]
Howard Beck
discussion last week or a couple of weeks ago, Roger, when we were at. At All Star. So Logan and Tyler Parker and I had this conversation about, like, what is. What do you need to be face of the league? And what does that even mean in all this? And so I said Wemby as well. And it's because it's not just the dominance of the player. There's a certain charisma to his game, and I even think to his personality. They scoffed at me, but I think that Wemby is Tyler.
- [35:32]
Raj Bell
Tyler in particular, scoffed at.
- [35:33]
Howard Beck
Tyler in particular, he scoffed because we,
- [35:36]
Raj Bell
me and him both, would rather have a beer with Anthony Edwards than Victor. Women. Yama. That was the argument. Yeah.
- [35:43]
Logan Murdoch
You know what, you know what's. You know what's. You know what's interesting about that? Sorry, Howard, because I don't lose your thought, but, like, Ant speaks to one demo more than Wemby does, if that makes sense. You know what I'm talking about, like, Speaker 0, you know, a certain. Yeah, like, I think Wemby might cross over to more people, if you will, than Ant does. Now, Ant is. I love Ant's personality. Ant is like my boys, their generation, the kid. Like they. Ant is the dude. But I would agree with you in terms of Wemby, because sneakily, right. As a guy, a French national who comes over and like, Boris was. Boris was actually at the crib. The other day, he came to watch Ty play. Boris has a great personality, but because of the language barrier, sometimes when the camera gets in front of them, like, you don't always get it. Wemby's got a really. He's got a real cool personality, too. I would agree with you on that.
- [36:37]
Howard Beck
And. And it's Logan just to say this, like, part of the face of the league thing is, like, appealing to the broadest possible cross section of the public. Right? And especially the North American public. So. And I think Wemby has that already, but it's also going to be like. Like nobody can get that mythical title unless they win a shit ton of games and some championships. And I think Wemby and the spurs have more of a chance of doing that than Anthony Edwards. So that's part of it, too. Shay's already got the title, but Shea is, like, so reserved, as we discussed a couple weeks ago, that Shea kind of doesn't even. Even enter the discussion because he doesn't want it. And Jokic and Luca don't seem to really want it. They're so guarded. They're so withdrawn.
- [37:17]
Raj Bell
And I think there's a language barrier, too, with Luca, and.
- [37:24]
Howard Beck
There was.
- [37:25]
Raj Bell
The reason why I say that. The reason why I say that is, like, they. English is their second language and they don't necessarily speak as they would maybe back in the homeland, as they do here. Like, it's just a difference. Like a comfort holder for them. Huh?
- [37:42]
Howard Beck
Like a comfort level. Like, if they were going, yeah, they
- [37:46]
Raj Bell
get more of themselves to where they're at. Right. That's. That's more of what I'm saying. Like, we're, like, you see when, like, perfect example, when you see Jokic and you see Luca together talking and conversing, they're way more open than they are with U.S. american Media. Right. Like, even when I think Luca tried to do it, he just didn't have that in him because it felt like there wasn't a comfort level with us in terms of our American media, as opposed to how it is when he's back in his. In his native country.
- [38:16]
Howard Beck
I think it's more just that they just. They've just chosen not to. Like. Like, they're both very comfortable with their English now. And you're right that maybe psychologically there's a different comfort of how you express yourself in your own language or. And even in your own country. But, like, they. They have enough of a command of the English language and, and both of them, you've. Have. You can See it at times. They do have a sense of humor and everything. They just don't say a lot. They're, they're, they're a little more conservative in the way they present themselves. And because of that, I think they're less relatable. Whereas Wemby seems to like really just give an earnest answer to just about everything. And not for nothing. Wemby of. I think all the players in the NBA, it took a non native, you know, not, not, not American born player to have the strongest statement about what happened in Minnesota. Like, like those kinds of things put you out front in a way that your play alone does not. And so like you, you, you have to want it.
- [39:15]
Raj Bell
And adding to that, like you, you see that Wimby is taking that seriously in a way that I don't even think Ant does. Right? Ant is, is just sheer force of personality. Right. I mean, you even juxtapose what Ant said about what happened in Minneapolis versus what, versus what Wimby said about what happened in Minneapolis. But more even than that, Wimby is playing hard. He's doing, he's. He's doing all of the things that you would want from a player to market your league, right?
- [39:46]
Howard Beck
He gets mad about losing an All Star game.
- [39:48]
Raj Bell
Gets mad about losing an All Star game, which is what the fans have been wanting players to do at least, for at least 10 years, right?
- [39:55]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [39:55]
Raj Bell
And all the fans are like, thank you. And like he, he has little about him where like he, like we saw this in la. Like he just has a little undercurrent of like talking that he has like he wants to win at all costs. The Corny, like, want to win at all cost that everybody loves, he has that now. And I think that, that back to the point about what we were talking about with the allstar game and we were talking about during All Star Weekend. It's so many different types of factors, right? You have to have a perfect balance of, you know, corporate viability. You have to have just something that we've never seen before and you have to be able to have the game to back it all the way up. And Wimy has all those things and you know, we'll see what happens. Let's get to Mailbag. We have a guy that we haven't seen in a while coming on Cliff. What's going on, buddy?
- [40:50]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, the young bull.
- [40:51]
Raj Bell
What up, Cliff? The boy Cliff is here.
- [40:55]
Cliff
What's good, man? What's up with y', all, man? I missed y', all, man. It's good to Be back with y'.
- [40:59]
Raj Bell
All.
- [40:59]
Cliff
Raj, good to see you son. Is glistening on you. Howard, I know the weather is going crazy right now in New York. Logan, my dog, you know. Appreciate y', all, man. So I got two good questions. Let me start off with this one here. This is from Riza Tahiri. For decades, NBA media has told us that regular season awards are for players who have the best regular seasons. Would interview honestly give Wemby Jokic, SGA, the MVP for 63 games over Cade Brunson Brown for 75 games. These decisions always come down to the margins when most voters give the nod to the player who played 80% of the regular season for a regular season award.
- [41:33]
Howard Beck
Reza, I, I, I'm, I'm. Thank you for the question, Raza. I'm questioning the math here. We don't really know how many games any of these guys are going to finish with. Let's just start there. As of right now, Jokic has missed 16 games, so he can only miss one more and still even be eligible. So the NBA does has this, have this 65 game rule, and if you miss, if you play fewer than 65, 64 or less, you're just done. You're not even on the ballot. We, the media, cannot even vote for you even if we wanted to. So when he says 63, by definition that those guys aren't even going to be on the ballot. Jokic has missed 16 games so far. Wemby has missed 14. So he's got a little more, more wiggle room, but it's, you know, he can't get hurt again, basically. SGA's missed nine games. He's got definitely some wiggle room still, but like he's still out, like it's ongoing. And the abdominals are no joke. Jalen Brown's missed five. Of the other guys that he mentioned, Jalen Brown's missed five, Brunson's missed five, Kate's missed six. So yeah, the guys who are our listener is saying should be elevated. Jalen Brown, Brunson, Cade have played more games than the other three. But this is like a sliding scale thing, and when we get to the end of, of the regular season and those of us who have ballots are filling them out, you are always weighing how great was the guy's season statistically, leadership, defensively, how often were they available, all that stuff against everything else, right? How many games did their team win? You're, you're just baking it all in and everybody's got their own kind of combination. There's 100 voters. Everyone has a little bit different way of weighing all these things and that's the way it's supposed to be. There's no one way to do this. But games played have always been a factor. Even before there was a 65 game rule. We, the media, the voters have always been had that as, as a, as a huge factor. And you can go back through the, the history of MVPs, you're not going to find a bunch of guys winning MVP with fewer than 65 games played in a full 82 game season. So you know, look, if Shay ends up playing 68 games and Cade plays 75, would I still vote for Shea? Maybe. Probably like Shay's just his statistically off the charts and he's, he's, he's better overall impact than Cade. So. But where's the, where's the breaking point? Is, is a, is a seven game difference enough to slip the other way? Is a 10 game difference enough to, to, to lean the other way? I, I, I won't know until we get there really. And the fact is if Wemby, let's say Wemby and Jokic, if those two guys end up like at exactly 65 games they've played exactly enough to qualify their 65, I think is stronger on balance than say Jalen Brunson. 75. That's not a shot of Jalen Brunson. It just is. And you know, so where is the breaking point for games played? Like, you know, again, I have the beholder stuff. Every voter will, will consider it differently. But anyway, that's how I see it.
- [44:29]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I mean I would agree with almost everything you said there. And then right at the end when, when, and this is just personal, I feel like Jalen Brunson, I mean not Jalen Brunson.
- [44:42]
Howard Beck
I'm sorry.
- [44:44]
Logan Murdoch
Jalen Brown is really, really being disrespected in this MVP conversation. I, it snuck up on me like I didn't see it coming, but he would and I give, I would just say this if I had a vote, he would get extra points if I was doing that exercise that, that you just spoke about with him. Who were the two other players that you said it was? Wemby and Jokic Howard.
- [45:10]
Raj Bell
So the, the right.
- [45:10]
Howard Beck
And I'm doing this based off what the listener wrote in. He had Jokic, Wemby and sga. He wanted to kind of knock him down a notch based on games missed. Fair.
- [45:18]
Logan Murdoch
Right.
- [45:18]
Howard Beck
And the guys he was promoting instead were Jalen Brown, Jalen Brunson and Cade. And So he wasn't distinguishing between those, but those are the two groups.
- [45:26]
Logan Murdoch
Right?
- [45:26]
Raj Bell
Right, right.
- [45:27]
Logan Murdoch
Well, I. I guess what I. My. My point would be Jaylen Brown, I think, would get. Well, I do all the math, I do all the brainstorming, and I would give him extra points for. Because he's lifted a team that we had no expectations for really coming into this season outside of maybe the people in the building there in Boston and maybe the fan base. And this is not a discredit to all the people that are playing great on that team. Peyton Pritchard, Derek White, like, all of them are playing fantastic. So it's not like he's doing it without any help, but he's doing it without his.
- [46:00]
Raj Bell
His.
- [46:01]
Logan Murdoch
His Batman to Robin or Robin to Batman. I would just notch him up. I'd give him a couple extra credit points, I guess, is what I'm saying.
- [46:07]
Howard Beck
I think he's being disrespected. I would, too, but. All right, so let me ask you the question, Raja. If you had to fill out a ballot right now, forget the rest of the season. The season ended today. Who's your 1 through 5? And where is Jaylen Brown on that ballot?
- [46:18]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, you know, I hate that.
- [46:20]
Raj Bell
It's probably like, oh, oh.
- [46:21]
Howard Beck
Meaning you have to. Actually, it's great to pontificate about how great Jayla Brown is, but when it
- [46:27]
Logan Murdoch
comes, I think he's. I would. I would put him right now. I don't. Well, I don't know. How many. How many games has everyone played? Like. Like, where are we at right now with everybody?
- [46:36]
Howard Beck
So, like, the teams have played some wildly different amounts. So I'm only. So here's the game's missed. Jokers has missed 16. Wemby's missed 14. Shay's missed nine. Brown and Brunson missed five each. Kate's missed six.
- [46:48]
Logan Murdoch
It's tough. No, it's tough. It's tougher than I.
- [46:52]
Raj Bell
So he's top.
- [46:53]
Logan Murdoch
He's top five.
- [46:55]
Raj Bell
Top.
- [46:56]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. He would not get it right now. I'm not saying I'd give it to him. I'm not. That wasn't my argument. What I'm saying is I think he gets disrespected in the conversation. Like, what are the odds? Let me look at the odds. Let me look at this.
- [47:06]
Howard Beck
So just while you're looking it up. So Tim Bontemps did his. His straw poll for ESPN a couple weeks ago. I was one of the people who responded to it. My top five. And you can have at it all you want. Raja here we go. I went Shea first, Jokic second, Cade third. I had Jaylen Brown fourth. Now, Jaylen Brown did not finish in the top five of his straw poll. I think he finished sixth, maybe seventh. So I'm one of the ones who actually had him in my top five. I had him fourth and I had Wemby fifth. And the reason I had Wemby fifth to the point of this discussion in the listeners email was because Wemby had played so many fewer games. And yeah, Jokic has missed a ton too, but Jokic's season is off the fucking charts. Like, it's just ridiculous. Ridiculous what he's doing. And so it, you have to like, try to like balance these things out. And at the end of it all, y either may not qualify or I may just decide when the real ballots are due. Cause these are a rough draft. But when the real ballots are due, I might downgrade Jokic more for all the games missed. Who knows? But as of right now, that was my list and I had Jalen fourth.
- [48:07]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I like it. I'm not advocating for it either. I'm not saying that I would have him as my mvp. I, I guess it's just, I feel like he's being disrespected in the conversation. Like, I give him the extra credit and he, and he still might not make the grade, right? Like, you get the extra credit, it might not bump you up to that A. You still might be at a B plus, but I just feel like that. And I like him at 4. I, I'd even be fine with if you had Wemby at 4 and him at 5 because people are having phenomenal seasons. But yeah, I just feel like he's being disrespected for what he's doing out there in Boston.
- [48:34]
Howard Beck
It's hard. It's hard thing. Wemby 5th feels like an insult. And yet I did.
- [48:39]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, this is crazy.
- [48:41]
Raj Bell
It's, it's, it's a really hard thing to discuss, right? Because on one hand, you know, I think of the MVP and all the awards basically is like people who define the season in the different ways that they define the season, right? And then also specifically with the mvp, they have defined the season at a level bigger than anyone. And that means like, in 10, 15 years, when I got my little one and I'm like, yo, back in daddy's day, this dude defined. You seen yin in the 25, 26 season, man, he just defined it. But then you look at historical president and the players that have won MVP have all played for the most part over 65 games. Right. When it's all said and done, I think I'm looking at the. I'm looking at. At the Internet right now. And Shay had 76. I can do that. Shay had 76, Nicola had 79. Joel Embiid had 66 games played. Damn near broke him when he had it in 23. Sorry, Cliff. Nicola Yokin 74, the Cola 72 in the 20 and where he played all of the games in the 2021 season, which was a Covid shortened season. Year before that, Giannis said that Akumbo had 63, but that was also the other coven shortened season. He played 87 of the games.
- [50:00]
Cliff
Right.
- [50:01]
Raj Bell
That since 1979, Allen Iverson has played the shortest amount of games to win an MVP. And that was 71.
- [50:11]
Logan Murdoch
Right.
- [50:11]
Raj Bell
Like these, this games are. I think the rule is a little wonky because in my mind it just is another excuse for, you know, to claw back money. The owners to claw back money in case, just for award season. How much money is now tied to awards? I think that's the bigger conversation. But this isn't like a new thing. You have to play games in order to, you know, be considered for awards. And that's not just what the league is saying. That's what us as the media has said as voters, based on the history of the league, that if you're available, then you can be considered for awards. I think we're still trying to figure out that balance in this new stage, but I do think that history suggests that we have done this before, before, and this is just how the way it goes in general, if you play, you are eligible for awards. Now, I don't necessarily like any excuse to claw back money from people, but that's just where we're all right now. And I think that that has taken on the rule itself, has taken on a more polarizing life of its own. But the bigger point is we've always considered games as a media apparatus when it comes to judging awards.
- [51:22]
Logan Murdoch
Can I add one thing, Can I add one thing to my. The. The. The Jaylen Brown of it all? Maybe this is why I feel like the need to give him extra credit because he, he not only scores and does all the things that he needs to do, but he ticks a. A box and, and, and fills an invisible stat that nobody else on that list fills. Like, Wemby's a great defender, but he gets the blocks. So you can point to it and be like great defender, like nobody else on that list really is like, he is locked down and you can't, you can't really quantify that with the stat. I mean, I'm sure there are advanced analytics to talk about, like, what his field goal percentage against is and like that. I'd be interested to see that. But, like, he really is up two way. Like, he's two way.
- [52:08]
Raj Bell
The reason why Roger loves him is he's also playing defense.
- [52:12]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, he defend. I mean, really and. And will defend your. Well, there.
- [52:17]
Raj Bell
It's.
- [52:18]
Logan Murdoch
It's.
- [52:18]
Raj Bell
Talk about how hard that is, please. I know it's something that we say a two way player is like something that's very coveted, but can you just talk about how hard that is?
- [52:26]
Logan Murdoch
It's incredibly rare to have your best player offensively take their best player defensively, you know, and I'm not, you know, he might not do that every night now. Like, I don't tap in every night to watch Boston, but I mean, that's what he does when push comes to shove and you got to put somebody on one of these wings that can really go get it that Jaylen Brown's on their ass. And not a lot of, Not a lot of cats on that list offensively, because usually it's an offensive award will go and do the defensive dirty work to get those dubs too. And those, Those are just hidden points for me in the conversation for Jalen.
- [53:07]
Howard Beck
Yeah, I think Jalen Brown is the classic case of what when people. If we hyped him up or if we, if we, if he won the award, you would have all these people doing the. Oh, he won on narrative. This is the dreaded narrative which became a pejorative.
- [53:19]
Raj Bell
Whoa. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. It's at me, bro. Just at me. Zapp me. Anyway, go ahead.
- [53:28]
Howard Beck
But it's. I hate, I hate when narrative is deployed that way because it's turned into a pejorative term. And it shouldn't be, but it would. Basically what Roger is speaking to is something that, like, for fundamentally, there's the basketball element. Jalen Brown is a really great player who has elevated the Celtics, and there are some advanced stats that actually don't reflect well on him, unfortunately. Raja, like, when you, if you start sorting by some of the advanced stats, weirdly, it takes them down a notch. And I don't. I'm not exactly sure why I'm not smart enough to, to understand all those formulas, but Jaylen Brown is putting up box score numbers, he's defending, he is leading, and he has got a team that is missing the guy we, we always characterize as their best player, the guy who was the perennial MVP candidate before the injury without him. And they're, they're one of the top two teams, top three teams in the Eastern Conference. But when you put that all together, there's a, there's a pocket of people out there. They're going to say, well, it's just narrative. Jalen Brown is doing exactly what you want a superstar to do. He's elevating his team and taking them places that you didn't even think they could go. He's, he's, he's made them a viable contender even if Tatum doesn't return. I think that counts a lot. But yeah, some people would, would say that that's just the dreaded, dreaded narrative case where that is the narrative. Jokic and Shay have, have more of the, the like, you know, you know, classic stat cases where it's like they just fill up the box score all. They check all the boxes on all the advanced stats too. And their team's records are great. And so yeah, you just get this clash of definitions eventually,
- [55:00]
Raj Bell
you know, we love a story. Who's that?
- [55:04]
Logan Murdoch
The original. Not the original box score stuffer, but my man Russ. Russ had a game the other night, dog.
- [55:10]
Raj Bell
Yeah, baby, yeah.
- [55:10]
Logan Murdoch
Brody had a game.
- [55:12]
Raj Bell
Ended, ended, ended the 16 game losing streak. Like the beam, baby. Light the beam. Light the beam. Hey man,
- [55:24]
Logan Murdoch
we got one more. You said you had two, right?
- [55:29]
Cliff
This second one is from Trevor Chan. Hey, fellas. Greetings from Montreal. Longtime listener with the first time question. This may veer into conspiracy build territory, but here it goes. Is the NBA draft overhyped? How come every year has the best prospects of all time? Last year's draft was clearly awesome with the immediate impact of Coop Khan, Harper, Vijay, Cedric Coward, courtesy of Verno's pal target guy, etc. How is it possible this year's draft is even better? If possible? I also love to hear hot takes from the extended fam like Joe McCliff. Are these prospects for real or is this simply media hype from the blog, boys. Thanks, fam. Keep up the great work. Cheers, Trevor. P.S. yes, I'm an avid listener of the Ringers NBA Multiverse. PPS. Tell Beck Save his best takes for real ones. He doesn't need to drop the heat on the low post or Zach low show. Zach is overexposed as is. Lol.
- [56:17]
Raj Bell
What the fuck the. Howard.
- [56:19]
Cliff
Trevor Chan from Montreal.
- [56:21]
Raj Bell
Who are you with? Who you with?
- [56:24]
Howard Beck
I'm a team player.
- [56:25]
Raj Bell
What do you want hey, your name is on this marquee. I'm just saying, all due respect to Zach, but it's the Zach Low show. This is the real one with Raja Logan and who's that? Howard Mother Beck.
- [56:39]
Howard Beck
Hey, there's, there's not appreciated. There's not some finite amount of takes where if I use them on Zach's show, I have none left for our show. It's, there's more enough to go around. The, the drafting's funny because like, all right, I think all three of us would, would probably say this, right? I don't want to speak for you guys, but like, I'm not a draft expert. I would never claim to be a draft expert. And there are guys who both in our business and obviously for NBA teams, that is all they do their entire shot clocks, big shots, upsets, aces. TGL playoffs are here. First, Atlanta Drive starts their repeat run against Los Angeles Golf Club. Then Rory's Boston Common Golf and Tigers Jupiter Links face off in their playoff debuts. Who will advance Keep up its playoffs tune in Tuesday, March 17th at 6:30pm and 9:00pm only on ESPN and the ESPN app Monster Energy.
- [57:26]
Logan Murdoch
Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra, that's the OG it kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing, but Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise and Vice Guava, and they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the White can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe and every single one is Zero Sugar Tap. The banner to learn more
- [57:54]
Howard Beck
attention span is is focused on college and international prospects all year. I would not ever pretend to know as much as those people do. So if I say like, oh, the 2026 draft class could be historic, I'm almost always going to say according to all the people who are the actual experts, according to the scouts I've talked to and according to people who write about this for a living and who, who focus solely on that, like J. Kyle man. Not that he focuses solely on it, but our, our J. Kyle man of the ringer. That's his specialty. Not, not mine, not mine. But if all the experts are saying this, I will kind of go like, okay, that's the, that's the consensus. But to the, to Trevor, the listener's point, not every draft class is hyped. We do have an overhyped problem with drafts in general. Like, all you have to do is watch the broadcast every time there's a draft and every single player is like, oh, he's Great at this, great that, whatever. He's perfect. He's exactly what they need. He'll fit perfect. That's true. But when we talk about, like, the strength of a draft class, 2024 was said to be bad going in, and it was. That was Rizza Shea going number one, followed by Alex Sar, Reed shepherd, and then Stefan Castle and Ron Holland, who have become, you know, very good players. But like, when Reza Shay is your top pick, like, that's going to be viewed as a bad draft. And it was. Even in real time, that was one where no one was sure who the number one pick should even be. When the Hawks actually leaped up to get the number one pick, it was kind of considered to be like a mixed blessing because it was like, eh, this is the, this is not the draft you want to leap up to be number one in. So that one was set in real time to be a bad draft. 2027, everyone's talking about constantly as being a bad draft, especially in contrast to 2026. Del. That said, yes, historically speaking, statistically speaking, as much as we are hyping Debanza, Peterson and Boozer and the rest of these guys, at least one's not going to work out. It's really rare that a hyped draft with like three guys or four guys all end up becoming superstars. It just, it just, it's not the way this goes. Like, I remember 2014, the whole league was tanking for Andrew Wiggins, and it was not just Wiggins, it was the Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Joel Embiid draft, and they went in that order. And I think we all know where that landed, right? Like, Jabari Parker, even before he got hurt and fell out of the league, like, was not living up to expectations or anywhere close. Andrew Wiggins has become a very good player, but not a great player. Joel Embiid won an mvp. And then those guys were followed by Aaron Gordon, Dante Exum, who had a ton of hype going into that draft. Julius Randle's in that draft had a ton of hype, like good players. But like, so sometimes the hype is, is overheated and sometimes, you know, it's, it's accurate. But yeah, the draft is still a crapshoot on so many levels. Teams cannot accurately forecast health and character and work ethic and coachability and, you know, a whole bunch of other, you know, intangibles.
- [60:52]
Raj Bell
Roger, what do you think about this draft? Because you, you know, you kind of have a, a better sense of it
- [60:57]
Logan Murdoch
than a schmucks Yeah, I mean, that's ridiculous. But I, I don't, I don't. I have watched a good bit of college ball this year. Just as I, as I start the process with, with Ty, you know, I'm trying to see how teams are playing and what they do. And so we're locked into more games than I've ever been. There are going to be Howard's point, some of these guys are going to look great in college and just not translate the way that people projected them to translate. And then they'll be the ones that, like me, that no one thought could play in the league. And then they wind up finding a way to stick around. Having said that, this is a loaded, loaded draft, like at the top with, with the Petersons, the, the boozer who's won everywhere he's ever been. Like, I mean, everywhere they, they, they grew up, you know, we grew up playing against them. So I've, I've watched him in real time. The kid at byu. Why can't I call his name right now? The Bansta Wilson at, at, at North Carolina. There's a, there's their guards. The kid at Illinois, Kingston Fleming at Houston, Acuff there. This thing is loaded. There are dudes that are out there putting up monster numbers in college. Just super, super talented kids in this year's draft in a way that I think is, is, is deeper than, than at least the last few years of the draft. Real talk, like, I, I, I. That's what my eyes tell me when I watch. I am not a draft analyst. I don't project these kids. I just watch the games. And there are some cats in college basketball this year that can go, go like they get it done.
- [62:36]
Raj Bell
I want to add to this because I don't watch college basketball at all. But my question to you, just as a novice, is as the professionalization of college basketball kind of helped this season at all, like, in terms of getting star players ready at this point. I know it's a pretty loaded question, but I'm honestly curious with these. Say it again. Has a professionalization of college basketball helped in this particular year with this particular crop of basketball players?
- [63:04]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, that's a good question. I don't, I, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know, Logan. I don't, I don't know that that's affected the, the cycle of kids that's
- [63:13]
Cliff
come through this year.
- [63:14]
Logan Murdoch
I don't, I can't attribute it to that. Like, all these kids were. The kid at Louisville Mikel Brown. I've. I've seen all these kids in high school because I've been tapped into that. They were already really good. Like, these kids came into college co opit. They came in, you know, already projecting to have that year. And if they were to have it, you already knew that they were going to be 1 through 10 on a lottery board. Right? So, like, I don't know that it's as much college as much as it is what they did prior to college. Now, clearly they've gotten better and that college situation is going to hopefully, you know, prove dividends down the road for them. They've. They've improved, they've learned. What I would say to that, Logan, in a weird way is when you came out of college before and had to transition to being a pro, there were so many things that you were learning at that point off court. How to deal with money, how to deal with people coming at you. Just those type of things you were ill equipped to deal with because they had never, you had never seen it before. These kids should be better in that space. On the court, I, you know, I don't really know. But off the court, I think they're way better equipped for the transition from college to the NBA than, than we would have been a generation ago. Just because we didn't have. We weren't, you know, walking around with, with hundreds of thousands of dollars at our disposal then. We didn't, we didn't have access to that until we got to where we were going.
- [64:37]
Raj Bell
Sure. Okay. That's really interesting. Two things for Trevor before we get out of here. One, have not been to Montreal, but I've been to your airport. Really good. Really love it. That was a great layover. And number two is a draft.
- [64:53]
Howard Beck
That's some, that's some faint phrase there. Loved your airport.
- [64:56]
Raj Bell
I wanted to go, but I had a flight to Toronto. I'm sorry, I just, I want to go to Montreal. I got a Montreal Expos at. Sure. Stop hating Howard. Let me give a compliment to the man city. The second thing is, is the draft overhyped? How come every year has the best prospects of all time? The reason for that is these ads got to be sold, okay? We got to sell these commercials. We got to sell this show. There's a whole culture around the draft that makes money for a lot of people that need to make that claim
- [65:25]
Howard Beck
in the worldwide leader. Is this all on them?
- [65:27]
Raj Bell
I'm not bringing capitalism, just the overall construct of it. That's the reason why, you know, we sometimes the Drafts are duds, but we think it's going to be, oh, my God, this is going to be great, bro. There's so many people in the second round that these analysts be like, oh, he's great. He's great. You're just, you know, you're.
- [65:44]
Cliff
You're pushing.
- [65:45]
Raj Bell
They don't know what the hell is going on with these, you know, oh, this guy is great. At the. In 38th pick. They don't know. They're just trying to sell it. All right. Selling stories. Sorry.
- [65:54]
Howard Beck
Second round has its own night now.
- [65:57]
Raj Bell
Why?
- [65:58]
Howard Beck
I don't. I don't know, man.
- [66:00]
Raj Bell
I hate my favorite thing to do. My favorite thing to do is just go out to an arena on a Thursday night, just dredge through the whole first round, and then just like clockwork, the second round's over in about hour and a half, and we're good. We're ready to go home, you know, get the press conference done. Now I gotta go back. I don't have to do it anymore, but you got to go back to the arena and watch this. Stop. Relax. Stop it. We're not doing that. Stop. I know you're trying to be the NFL, NBA, but you not the NFL. Relax. Sorry.
- [66:31]
Howard Beck
Is like. Is like 2 or 3 out of 30 that even have NBA careers on average, bro.
- [66:36]
Raj Bell
All they do is just say, is that real?
- [66:39]
Logan Murdoch
Is that.
- [66:39]
Howard Beck
Those are real stats? Wow. Just. Dude, just go.
- [66:42]
Raj Bell
That's.
- [66:42]
Howard Beck
I mean, that's not a stat. Stat. Like, I haven't done the math.
- [66:45]
Raj Bell
No, but if.
- [66:45]
Howard Beck
Go. Scroll through Raja, go year by year and find how many guys had, like, reasonably, you know, substantial NBA careers out of the second round. And every year you'll find, like, two or three guys. And sometimes it's somebody great, sometimes it's. It's Jokic or Draymond Green or somebody else who's like, become a star. Star. But you go through most of those names, you're like, I don't remember ever hearing this guy's name in my life. And, like, some of them are, you know, draft and stash types where they never came over or whatever. But, like, yeah, there's. There's. The hit rate in the second round is extremely low, which is why having a TV show about it is kind
- [67:19]
Raj Bell
of my favorite part about the second round is the player comps. Because, like, they. They do a player comp for somebody that wasn't a good NBA player. I was like, that's not actually. I think you actually want that. Or they play the. Out of Draymond garbage Green and Yogurt's highlights be like, are we gonna find the next jokers? Are we gonna find the next Draymond Green? You know, still got to sell these commercials, you know, on a Friday night. It's tough out here in these TV streets. All right, that's what you get here on realness. Mailbag@gmail.com realms mailbag gmail.com real ones mailbag gmail.com quick announcement. Howard is now going to be joining us on Fridays, ladies and gentlemen. Clap it up. Clap it up. Clap it up. Clap it up. Clap it up. He's back. He's. He's never leaving us. We're. We're stuck with him. He's going to be here on Tuesdays and Fridays with us for all of eternity. Unless he's, like, off or has to do something or has to take it.
- [68:13]
Howard Beck
But I might. I might retire at some point. That's possible.
- [68:16]
Raj Bell
No, man. You got that LeBron blood in you. Anyways, we'll see all three of us on Friday. Tap in all the shits. Bye, Sa.