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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello, and welcome to this Midsommar edition of Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier, and joining me as always, it's Rob Mahoney. What's up, buddy?
- [00:21]
B
It's all going great, Justin. Am I in the bear suit or are you in the bear suit?
- [00:25]
A
I think you're the. You're the queen. You know, you're the Mayfair queen. I don't remember the specific terminology.
- [00:31]
B
I appreciate it, but look, I. I want to give you first pick. Honestly, you got a birthday coming up. Happy early birthday, Justin. I feel like it's the least that we could do for you to let you pick between the bear and the queen.
- [00:41]
A
How did you know that? I never remember birthdays and I specifically do not advertise them.
- [00:46]
B
I'm locked in. I will really. I just have all your private information. Social Security, credit card numbers. I got the numbers on the back of the credit card. Birthdays light work.
- [00:55]
A
I have a scorching. Take that. That birthdays are actually the at fault for participation trophy culture, because I kind of think that birthdays shouldn't be celebrated.
- [01:08]
B
So you think participation trophy culture starts with bringing cupcakes for your birthday in kindergarten? That's. That's really the root of it all.
- [01:16]
A
What are we celebrating like that I survived another year? Because here's the thing, if anything dramatic or any accomplishment happens over the course of the year, you're celebrating that in real time. You get a promotion, you get a new job, you have a baby. All this other stuff like that is the stuff. If anything, the birthday just marks that you survived. And so since we're past like the plague era, I think we could just move along and just mark that like I am now a year older.
- [01:45]
B
I think we're past that plague era, but we're in many other plagues eras, you know, so here's to another year are still going on, honestly.
- [01:53]
A
That's true. How has your. Your summer been going?
- [01:56]
B
Finally quiet in a way that is now discomforting. You know, we're so used to churning out these pods. We're so used to hopping on here on group chat with Woz twice a week. I don't know what to do with myself, Justin, with all of this kind of time and space in my life. Are you making good use of it?
- [02:12]
A
Yes and no. I've got a lot done. I went to the dump the other day, which feels like a dump, the literal dump, which I have to say, the people at the dump were very nice. Like, maybe it's because you need to be on some sort of chemical in order to deal with the chemical fumes that you were ingesting all day, but just very helpful people. I pulled out a wire fence that was separating my yard by hand with a pickaxe and a shovel. Had to buy both of those. And then I just brought them all down in a U haul to the dump, man. And so that's what I've been doing.
- [02:47]
B
It does make sense, though, that you would have to be a very well adjusted human being to work at this dump. You know, like, you really do have to have an inner serenity to deal with that kind of fumage. So I salute all of our essential workers down there. I salute you for getting your hands dirty a little bit. Has the summer bounty been good in the garden?
- [03:04]
A
Yes and no. So I ended up having two crops that did okay. So the lettuce just shot right up, no problems. The tomatoes did well. Both plants actually bloom. There is a bounty. In fact, my. My little vegetable crisper drawer is full right now. The problem is they're small, which, like the metaphor is there if you want it. The big old plant. Small tomatoes.
- [03:30]
B
Sure.
- [03:32]
A
And then also my neighbor who has been kind of coaching me along here, he gave me some of his tomatoes. And the difference in quality.
- [03:39]
B
Oh, no.
- [03:40]
A
Is stark. Like, his are excellent. Minor. Like, passable, I would say.
- [03:46]
B
How are you dealing with that contrast?
- [03:49]
A
Fine, because I just use his and then allow mine to just rot away. That's fair. But I have been eating a lot of tomato products nonetheless. A lot of, like, bagels, plus. Plus the cream cheese, plus the tomatoes and the olive oil. So, yeah, I'm full of tomato right now.
- [04:05]
B
I love that for you. I love that for all of us. I feel like as the garden grows more and more robust, we're all going to reap the benefits. You know, your quality of life will improve. The podcast will only improve. There's nowhere to go but up.
- [04:17]
A
I've also been hitting the gym a little bit. I'm a little actually perturbed that our friend Luka Doncic took kind of all the. The. The eyeballs because I was ready to drop my own puff piece about, like, my own workout routine. You know, it might have been on the force plate. The. For. What is that?
- [04:34]
B
It's like, what measures your athleticism, you know, it can. It can really measure your. Your. Your output, your. Your bionic load. I'm just putting words together at this point. I honestly don't know. But look, I think it's an important thing. You got to get your. You got to get your measurements in order to know how far you've come.
- [04:51]
A
I don't know how my force plate is. I don't know about my biometric load, but I will say I feel stronger, you know, and though will, like the article about my exploits be on like, a random Instagram account with like, like a hundred followers, just because it's a guy who just like, hits me up about Yana's trade ideas in my DMs, and all of a sudden I had to give him the exclusive. Maybe. But I'd like to say it's as important for the coming season nonetheless.
- [05:19]
B
I would learn how to use Photoshop to then Photoshop your glossy gym photos if you want that. I just want you to know the service is available to you, but the look, the LUCA stuff has taken the world by storm. I don't know what else to say. It's. It's become the story in the NBA this week somehow.
- [05:35]
A
Yes. And we should start there. So for this episode, we're going to do what we think we know about the upcoming season. 20, 25, 26. So basically, we've had a couple weeks now to percolate on what happened in the offseason. We're kind of assessing, like, what could happen next season, but we're not quite committing to it. It's basically like, take pilots. Like, we're starting to get the glimmers of certain ideas. And so think of this as more of like, our scratch pad where we're trying out ideas on each other and we'll see down the road if we really want to commit to them when we get into full pod mode when the season starts.
- [06:11]
B
Can I ask you a question on that front? Was almost certainly will not be listening to this podcast if you bring up one of your takes again later. Should I act surprised, like I've never heard it before and like, we didn't do this whole pilot process. It's just as polished as it is, you know, for the preseason power rankings or whenever it gets unveiled.
- [06:30]
A
I think the truth is that by the time we get to, what, mid September, when we start the pod back up in earnest. Yeah, I think we will forget them nonetheless. So I think it will be new to. To all of us.
- [06:41]
B
Okay, Fair. I mean, look, speak for yourself. I'm locked in on these, you know, penciled intakes. I think. I think this is going to be some of our better work. I'm excited for what we got today.
- [06:50]
A
Well, I think we should start with Luka, who, as you mentioned, is just the only story in the NBA. Not only because it's such a big deal and so stark. To see the photos of him and the video of him looking so svelte and tan. He looks great. But also the media tour that he is on is unlike anything I've seen in recent years, maybe in the past two. It's very much an old school. Like George Clooney has a movie out, so he's gonna go to the Today show. And the fact that Luca showed up in a Men's Health article, a publication that I wasn't sure still existed, and got what might be the puffiest puff piece I have ever seen. And I've been doing this puffy.
- [07:29]
B
This is a shredded puff piece, you know.
- [07:32]
A
Sure. But in terms of like the sophistication of the reporting, let's say it was really the state puff marshmallow of man of. Of. Of puff pieces. I would say Luka Doncic 2.0 has entered the chat. Rob.
- [07:47]
B
Well, before we even get into, you know, Luca's workout routine, his. His diet, all these things that have empowered him to become Luca 2.0, I need your perspective, Justin, as an editor of NBA content, how you feel about specifically the co authors of this Men's Health profile accidentally erroneously citing that luka had a 42 inch vertical vertical at the combine. A combine he did not attend. All because Google AI seems to have erroneously confused Dante DiVincenzo's vertical with Luca's vertical.
- [08:20]
A
That was a tough one, I have to say. I think that's an editorial problem and an oversight more than should have been caught. Yeah, than it is a writer problem, because I think just if you're doing all this work, you're kind of taking information from various sources sometimes. And yes. Was it lazy to just pull the first AI thing from there? Yes, indeed. But it should have gotten caught in the process, I would say, especially if you're vetting it like we do thoroughly at the ringer, where it's like not only originating at her, but we have the copy desk and we have a fact checker. And so I have to wonder what's going on at Men's Health, like, are they lacking on. On the just editorial process?
- [08:57]
B
Having worked in magazines myself, I would say I would not be surprised. You know, sometimes. Sometimes you're missing the multi layers of. Of catching in that, you know, the various nets that would catch something like that. But ultimately a small thing. Everyone knows Luka Doncic did not have a 42 inch vertical, though he is a tremendous athlete in his own way. And I Will say what has been so surprising and kind of stark, specifically watching him last season with all the injuries, with all the rust, with the conditioning issues, like he just wasn't a downhill player anymore. He was getting to the basket less than he ever has before. If this version of Luka shredded, svelte Luka is getting back to those things, then he's an MVP caliber player. Then he's everything that we've, we've wanted him to be, everything that we've seen him be, everything that he was. For the best versions of the Dallas Mavericks. That has to be pretty fucking exciting. If you're a Lakers fan, if you're a part of the organization, if you're deandre Ayton ready to catch lobs from a guy who's actually going downhill again.
- [09:49]
A
Yeah. And so that's kind of the take that I'm working with here is I think I am officially buying the hype and we should know we are recording this before. He goes and plays in what is a Euro basket this summer with Slovenia. And it seems like he typically does get in shape in order to play with the international team. Obviously international competition means a lot to these guys and the issue tends to be more during the regular season where somehow in the course of an 82 game season puts weight on or isn't like running as much in between. I don't know what is going on with him, but we should see. And obviously the injuries last year added to that the fact that he wasn't playing and that probably added more weight on for when he got back with the Lakers. So we'll see. But this is probably the best I've seen him at all probably since he was like a pipsqueak rookie and was just thin by nature. And so like if he is healthy and engaged. I know the Lakers have a lot of problems on this roster, but not only can Luka kind of paper over those, I think he orchestrating an offense that has a lot of juice to it can maybe make them such a blistering attack that some of the defensive concerns we could talk about may not mean as much in the broader scheme of things.
- [10:58]
B
Yeah, there's a lot of questions with the Lakers, how they're going to piece together the rotation, whether that defense is going to be able to hold up against some of the better teams in the West. What's going on with LeBron on a daily and weekly and monthly basis as the season goes on, if Luka is as good as he can be and this is a great step in that direction. A lot of those questions just don't mean that much anymore. They're just not that powerful like a motivator for the team anymore. And I think that's the part of this that to revisit the trade in the first place, which I'm sorry, we're just going to have to do perpetually, probably until the end of time, but certainly within the calendar year since the trade. This has always been a player who has been incredibly moved by being called out directly and challenged directly.
- [11:41]
A
By revenge.
- [11:42]
B
Yeah, by revenge. And not only trading him, but then going in the media and saying, we basically did this because he, we don't believe in his defense. We basically did this because we don't believe in his long term outlook. We want to be a win now team. I don't know. It moves a guy to get in the gym. It moves the guy to intermittent fast. And intermittent fasting apparently the new plant based diet as far as NBA, the NBA is concerned. So congratulations to all the intermittent fasters out there.
- [12:06]
A
Are you not hip to this? Apparently this is a thing.
- [12:09]
B
It's been a thing. But has it been a thing in the NBA? You know, I haven't, I haven't seen the like Chris Paul esque investment in plant based technologies. Not that you really need any technologies to, to fast in this way. But I think it's, I think it's coming to the, to the big leagues. I'll say that.
- [12:25]
A
I think it's coming to everyone because all of the, the workout Instagrams that I've been cramming over the off season, they're all like you, you don't eat until noon. You work out before you've had the first dish. Like that is the thing. And it seems like honestly what the Luca plan sounds very similar to a lot of these like bozos that I, that I get fed via my algorithm where it's like. To the point where he uses like the, the trap. He's eating a lot of protein which God forbid anyone not eat less than 200 like grams of protein or whatever in, in a daily sitting nowadays. Don't. You're just like an ogre at this point.
- [12:59]
B
The point where they're advertising how many grams of protein like popcorn has in it. I'm like, guys, we have lost the fucking plot. I like. Very important for everyone's diet. We gotta chill a little bit.
- [13:10]
A
Yeah. He's using the, the trap bar, the like to do squats. Which I remember specifically our friend Tom Haberstrough writing about helped Steph Curry overcome his ankle issues long ago. And so I started using that because I wanted to follow this F. Curry plan. I saw Luca doing that. So based on my limited understanding of the human body, Luca is doing all of the right things.
- [13:33]
B
So you've, you've been following the step plan. Will you be following the protectors of the Luca plan? Because you can go into exhaustive detail in, in Men's Health's side side pieces off this profile to learn about the ins and outs of his diet.
- [13:47]
A
I don't need any help eating more protein. If anything, I probably need to eat less. So, yeah, I guess I am kind of following, but I have a hard time. So I would say the west is going to be particularly deep. It's. There are about like seven teams at this point that I could see making the finals. Now would I say the odds, the, the percentage pie of like three of those teams being way more than some of the other ones. But like, yes, but I would say the Lakers at the very least have a sliver of pie. You know, they have like, they have a percent, they're in the single digit percent chances of it. And if Luka could be this and if LeBron buys in, which is a two track kind of question you have to constantly weigh. It's almost like the Kawhi thing where it's like, if Kawhi's healthy, the Clippers are this and if he's not, they're this. Whereas The Lakers, if LeBron is engaged, they're this, and if not, he's this, they're this other team. But like, I could see it, I could see the plan working.
- [14:44]
B
I, I would say this, that without this version of Luka there is no chance, you know, like, like the version of Ma. The Mavericks that got to the finals with Luca not in this kind of shape, but in better shape than he was last season, had just kind of more at his disposal, more weapons. He understood how to use an ingrained sense of chemistry and continuity with that group in a lot of ways, a true like shot creating counterbalance in Kyrie Irving as far as someone who's going to look for their own shot as much as anything else. Like, LeBron is a different kind of scorer and creator, especially at this stage in his career. This is a different kind of team and it, it demands something different physically from Luca than what he was doing in Dallas. And so this is not just an important step, it's an essential step in terms of the Lakers being contenders in any kind of way whatsoever. So the fact that they are on that board that they do have their little slice of pie that they could expand it potentially depending on what happens with their roster and which guys click and which guys don't. All of that comes down to whether Luka can play as the best version of himself. And we're, we're inching closer to that possibility if not probability.
- [15:44]
A
The Mavs when they made the finals in 2022 which was a bit of a surprise, not unlike the 2023 season which they had a better regular season. Luca played with Jalen Brunson, Reggie Bullock, Dorian Finney Smith and Dwight Powell as the NBA the Western Conference finals lineup there. Kristaps was obviously hurt there. Looking back on it, the Kristaps, Brunson, Luka triumvirate might have been like one of the biggest what ifs in recent NBA history. But like he was able to will that team. Yeah to the west finals. I think he could do that with the assemblage on. On the Lakers especially because they have so much creation in offensive juice and specifically to allow both Luca and LeBron to sit if necessary. Reeves can step in and fill that. They actually quietly have the type of team that can will them to wins to not put them in a disadvantage once they get to a playoff series. Now will the defensive concerns start to show more then as they did last season? Most likely. But you're giving yourself a fighting chance. And so in the big like LeBron question of like is he capable of competing in his waning years, perhaps his last season with the Lakers. I think at the very least it's on the table.
- [16:57]
B
Yeah and there's. There kind of are. Are separate questions here as you're alluding to. Are the Lakers good? Clearly this was a 50 win team. Even with the trade, even with the, the you know, all the changes midstream last year. You know, even with everything that was going on with Luca still a 50 win team. They will be quite good again. Are they going to be good enough to push the Thunder and the Rockets and the Wolves and the Nuggets in particular. I think that's a bit of a taller order that would require rectifying some of those. The you know specifically the deficits on defense we've been talking about. They would just need to find at least a stout like five man group they could throw out there for. For specific stretches. I don't even think they have that right now. Defensively I'm not sure they will with this personnel. They might have to make some changes to the roster to make that happen. But they are in, they're in the mix, as we often say with them. They are firmly in the mix. And that in itself is something to be congratulated. That in itself is something to chase and to push forward. And when you have Luka Doncic, that's what you're fighting for every year is like how do you get yourself deeper and deeper into that contending conversation?
- [17:58]
A
Yeah, I would say the Lakers aren't better than last year, but they're about the same and just kind of different. Right. They just have to fill the Dorian Finney Smith with enough minutes between eight and and Marcus Smart. I wouldn't be surprised if Smart actually does play well, which is a big if he had a couple good games toward the end of his Wizards run for whatever that is worth. Maybe they can close with him as, as kind of the de facto small ball center on offense and then he could be more of a hunting guard defensively. But since we're kind of talking around this issue, why don't we jump to the question we have here about the west in general which so I kind of mention it there. I could see 17. So and this is different than in years past where there were teams that we could see winning. There was like a handful between both conferences. I feel like most of them are in the west one and I can't remember a time when it were so deep in teams on an elite tier like between okc, Denver, Houston, Minnesota and then I think you have to give credit to the Clippers in Golden State and the Lakers.
- [19:02]
B
I.
- [19:02]
A
It's just, it's, it's a really weird time where there are so many teams that have everything that we've said allows you to win in the regular season now, which is the top level talent plus the depth to support that. And so I guess this gets around to my kind of overall thinking here, which is that I think the Thunder are the best team, but I almost might have a hard time picking them. Yeah. As the eventual champions. Just because the road to get there is going to be so much more difficult. Does that make sense?
- [19:32]
B
It does make sense. This is an incredibly deep conference. Repeating in today's NBA is tremendously difficult as we have seen for every team that's tried to attempt it recently. I don't think we should expect any champion to go back to back basically until we see it. Until see we see someone kind of break through that dam. That said, if any team is going to do it, I think there's a lot of reasons to think it would be The Thunder, right. Like they are the youngest recent champion by a mile. And so as far as the wear and tear of two highly competitive long seasons, you would think they might be better suited to handle that kind of thing than some of these other veteran teams that have gone run through the gauntlet twice previously. The stakeholders for the Thunder are going to be better like Chet, J Dub, Kayson, Wallace in particular. Those guys are right at, right at the age and right at the point in their careers where guys usually start to take off in a different way. I think we saw it with J Dub in the playoffs in particular and in the Finals, like really deliver in some of those moments. And their roster is intact because the finances are just different for them than they were for so many of the other recent champions. So, like they didn't lose a critical member of the rotation to free agency because they couldn't pay him because they didn't have the money, because the tax, whatever. It's like they have the same group. So they're not getting pulled apart in the way that their championship teams are. They just have to fend off these other contenders and challengers that are going to be a little bit better in the west in particular. I think they can probably do it. But I'm with you in this like, mental trap of like, how do you. How do you. If you are the Thunder, how do you pierce through a field that's this competitive when, you know, like teams like the Lakers are a great example. I don't think the Lakers have quite enough to make it through four rounds. I do think they have enough to be a spoiler and upset, potentially ups, quote, unquote upset. They may have a better record, but to beat a team that might have ultimately like a stronger contending case than them.
- [21:19]
A
Yeah. NBA history is written by a select few dominant teams that kind of just raised over any other sort of competition. The teams like the, the grit and grind Grizzlies had a moment, but they were ultimately, and they might ultimately be forgot to time just because the warriors were so dominant. Right.
- [21:38]
B
But not. But not to us. We would never lose that. Yeah. First team, all defense.
- [21:44]
A
Yes. His post game diatribes, I think will. Will just float around my head until the day I die. But I do wonder if the Thunder are that team and they certainly could be that team. They're on that level and they are built, as you mentioned, in order to do so. Like the difference between them being that team next season is really probably a leap from Chet, which is expected, not just like possible within the next two years. Also, like their summer league guys are just great. Like A.J. mitchell looked like one of the best guys in the summer league. Yeah, I also started seeing some Brooks Barnheiser, but I don't know, I don't know if you caught that as well. Like I saw someone talking about all the stocks he got the steals and blocks together, so maybe he's another second round guy. They have everything you would want. Yeah, but I just can't remember a field this competitive also in the same conference where like Denver was already pushing them pretty sternly in that second round series. If they had the depth to, to go back at them. If there's an injury with the Thunder and an untimely one if Chat gets injured later in the season as opposed to mid season as he did last time, all of a sudden it opens the door and the margin for error is slimmer than ever before. Like the fact that if I were to like power rank these just off the top of my head, the fact that like Minnesota, who has made the past two Western Conference finals is fourth on the chopping block, it's wild. And so they're going to have their work cut out for them.
- [23:15]
B
They are going to have their work cut out for them. And to be very clear about this, if the question in any season is contender X or the field, the answer is the field. Sure, I think there are only a couple of historical exceptions to that. And it basically takes something like the warriors adding Kevin Durant in order for you to even, to hesitate about taking the field. Like even the best championship, the best contenders are going to have like a 25 to 30% chance of winning. And that's a, that's an amazing shot. But you never know what can happen. You never know what could upset the apple cart. Shay has an injury and all of a sudden everything looks totally different. You know, the wrong guy gets hurt at the wrong time and everything looks totally different. So we don't want to get ahead of ourselves with any of this stuff. I do think the challenge in the west is formidable to the point that I think whatever team makes it out of the West, I think clearly is going to be well positioned to win the NBA Finals. The east just doesn't have the same like caliber of top flight compet. Maybe that'll put a drain on a team, but I kind of think it'll harden them. If it's the Thunder, if it's the Rockets, if it's the Nuggets, if it's the Wolves, if it's whoever, like you're going to have to really prove something to yourself and to everyone else in the field to make it through a Western Conference like that. And what it looks like on the other side, I can't wait to see. I can't wait to see a Thunder team that has proven even more than we've already seen, potentially.
- [24:31]
A
So I have a hard time just giving it to the Thunder, but I also have a hard time picking some sort of dark horse that might crack that top seven. Like, I want to zag, as we typically do around this time and say, like, you know what, Portland's onto something. Dame just coaching from the bench. Scoot's going to just take off with the rearing of both Drew and Dame and Chauncey Billups in his ear. It's very difficult to want to believe in one of those teams. Beyond that, I think the only team that really has a shot might be the San Antonio spurs because like we were saying, history being dictated by the very elite talent, the very best teams. Could Victor Wenyama be one of those guys?
- [25:15]
B
So you're talking about to make, to get a portion of the pie to make the west finals. Like, what is the, what is aspirational for the spurs at this point?
- [25:22]
A
Yeah, I think break into the top six would be a good goal for them. That would be like the ceiling, I think next season. Considering the West West, I think they could do it.
- [25:31]
B
Like, I think, I think they have that kind of potential in them. And frankly, we just like haven't seen enough of the Wemby Deer and Fox partnership in particular to, to quite know what to expect. But shoring up the bigs behind Wimy, I think is going to do incredible work for the spurs defense, which completely collapsed when he wasn't on the floor. Now you have Luke Cornett to help with some of that stuff. Now you have like actual, the actual ability to maintain a rotation behind your star player, which is so important. Victor Weyama was going to win defensive player of the year if he didn't have to duck out of the lineup. I assume he will win this season. I also think he's going to be one of these guys who, if we, if they have the kind of outcome we're talking about where the spurs are in the top six. He's going to be an mvp. Conversations too, like we're going to have that talk with, you know, the newly svelte Luka, with Jokic, with Shay, with Giannis, I'm sure always perpetually there. I think Wemby is going to kind of insert himself into that group and he's. He's already kind of shown it. They just haven't really had the team results to carry that sort of candidacy yet.
- [26:32]
A
Yeah, the case for Wemby is that he's historically good and the defense had already been there and he was still at the point where month by month was taking pretty dramatic steps in his offensive game. And you have to wonder if he's just going to reprise that as soon as he gets back into the lineup. According to an article two weeks ago, just the spurs say that he is back in playing some basketball after his sojourn to the Shaolin temples in order to work on his kung fu. Maybe that unlocks some part of his game that we're not aware of. I don't know if you've ever been to a Shaolin temple and practice kung fu with monks before.
- [27:09]
B
Not as of yet. That's for deeper in the off season. I think there's room for all of us to grow and improve in our spiritual journeys, Justin.
- [27:17]
A
But the counterpoint would just be the lack of actual on court time with de' Aaron Fox. I believe they played five games last year and that they've gotten more talented this off season. But I also wonder if they've gotten younger and thus maybe not as ready to compete on the high level of some of the best players in the world with depth, executing in real time. And so I love the draft that they have. I think Harper has a pretty bright future. He looks good and then Brian just immediately jumped out. To me in the little amount of summer league that I did watch. Just seems like he fits the mold of the three and D guy. They're kind of lacking like the Cell has tried in that role for a time. Kelvin Johnson, they have options on the wing. He just plays such a very clear vision of what you would want in that role, especially around Wemby. I just wonder if they're going to cycle through more mistakes as a result. Not having the steady hand of Chris Paul and then turning it over more to. To Stefan Castle perhaps to run things. Dylan Harper, who is a rookie who hasn't had many reps there. I also wonder what role he's going to have. Is he going to run the second unit? Is he going to play next? The Fox? There's just a lot to figure out on the fly which might keep them from reaching a ceiling of being in the top six.
- [28:31]
B
Yes, all those question marks tend to add up. You know, even if half of them break in a positive direction, the other Half could end up holding you back in a way that makes you more of a play in team. I think their win total last season was a little suppressed just by their, their health and their circumstances. And again, the timing of the trade with Fox in particular, having him for the full season, having an actual downhill player for a full season I think will be huge. In addition to Castle adding another stretch big in Kelly Olynic to help broaden out the lineup as well, like they just have options in a way that they didn't before and all that flexibility that you're, you're, you know, ascribing some kind of like vague open ended quality to which I think is all true. Like we just don't know who those young players are going to be yet. They're also just different enough that you can say, okay, well, maybe this is a Keldon Johnson moment, maybe this is a Dylan Harper moment, you know, maybe, maybe this is a Harrison Barnes moment, maybe it's not. Maybe we need to go bigger. Maybe there's something else that fits this, this occasion or this lineup more than what we've been leaning on in the past. Spurs just didn't have those possibilities before. Now they do. In addition to a star who unlocks so much for everyone else around him, like that's an exciting time and speaks to a team that's really on the cusp of something, whether it's a top six season or not.
- [29:44]
A
Well, if they did make the top six, they would displace two of the teams that we've mentioned before. Do you think any of these teams are most susceptible to being pushed down by a Wemby jump?
- [29:56]
B
Man, it's tough. Again, I think this is going to be the kind of year, I mean, we saw last year how many teams ended up with near about 50 wins. I think ultimately the west win totals are going to be pulled down a bit just because of even more teams being competitive potentially. And so it wouldn't surprise me to see teams that are, you know, fighting for a playoff spot, fighting to stay out of the play in everyone kind of around like 46, 47 wins maybe. And I could see, you know, the Clippers being pulled into that conversation. I could see the Wolves being pulled into that conversation. I think the, the Wolves have their own questions as far as like, how do you replace Nikhil Alexander Walker's minutes, for example? What happens if Julius Randle has a down season as he sometimes does in odd years or whatever. So there's a lot to figure out for all of these teams. Not to say nothing of the new pieces, especially in Houston, which is going to completely reconfigure its offense. May not be, you know, an outright juggernaut in the regular season, but I think has the balance to be one of the best teams in the league. There's just so much wait and see and there's a lot of wait and see with the spurs and they're going to figure into that, but I just wouldn't be surprised at this point to see them bump into that group.
- [31:01]
A
I'm a little worried about the Wolves, if only because all of these teams, at least the top tier of them, all made moves to dramatically improve. Whereas like Denver adds a bench, Houston adds Kevin Durant and during Finney Smith and a bunch of other guys in order to fill out the bench. And they had to lose someone in Walker who is ancillary to like the core. But it's still, you had to lose an element of the team that I think spoke to the flexibility, especially if you wanted to go a little bit smaller, which they typically do in the postseason. I think the big key would be is Terence Shannon can just walk into that role. He seemed like he played pretty well in summer league, shot the ball pretty well. He's older too. I didn't realize he's like 24 and so like you don't really have to wait even though he was a rookie, I believe last season. But like, do we know what Dillingham is at this point? We do not the top type of things that might slip a little bit and thus push them further down in the regular season standings. As you mentioned, it's going to be a knife fight just to get to 50 wins at this point.
- [32:05]
B
Yeah, if they're going to make additions, it is additions by internal development. It is Dillingham, it is Shannon, it is Jalen Clark. It's all three of those guys taking meaningful steps forward at a time where not only are you offsetting Nikhil Alexander, Walker leaving, you're offsetting Mike Conley getting older, you're offsetting, you know, like you just need to find more rotation ballast at this point if you're the Wolves. And that's where it would have been great to see them bring in one more veteran guy who you could feel confident about in a pinch, could fill minutes. They just haven't really been able to accomplish that. But I think we've seen enough from Shannon to think that he could be one of these guys, that he could be a real eight man playoff rotation kind of contributor. Clark might be a Little too one sided at this point. Defense forward and Dillingham, I just have no clue. He's so small. It's so hard to like chart his course to being a really high level NBA player or specifically somebody who wouldn't be targeted when you give him, you know, a series going against. Like if Luka Doncic is on the floor at the same time as Rob Dillingham, like, I'm concerned, you know, like if a creator like that is on the floor, I'm concerned.
- [33:06]
A
I did like the Johan Beringer minutes we got in summer league. That guy seems like a player.
- [33:13]
B
You're just in your bag today, I gotta say.
- [33:16]
A
I started. You're in my head. I could tell because I've started to look up the pronunciation of these guys in anticipation of certain pods. Yeah. So if you've ever wondered what effect you've had on me, it's just to scare me straight in terms of not things up.
- [33:30]
B
I appreciate it, but I don't know.
- [33:32]
A
If you caught some Beringer, but like he's a block machine and he's like all of 19 years old, I believe. I think he's one of the youngest players in the draft. Like if they have yet another center in order to spot Gobert sometimes in the regular season also makes it a little bit easier maybe to work a trade. Maybe you don't need Nas Reed as much as the third center you probably do next season just because he fills so many different roles. Totally gives them so much lineup versatility, but like, I don't know, they're just like kind of slowly ushering in a wave of young guys that I think will benefit them down the road. And so I actually like the Wolves future, but maybe next season is the half measure in order to get there, the half step.
- [34:10]
B
It does feel that way. Like financially speaking, it was kind of a like a deck clearing moment in a lot of senses, kind of repositioning what this roster is going to be resigning some critical guys like, like Nas Reed and Julius Randall in particular. And we're gonna, we're gonna have to see kind of like where the growth comes from over time. And as usual, a lot of it comes down to how much more could Anthony Edwards potentially give you from what he's already giving you, which is quite a fucking bit. So if he takes a meaningful step forward, am I wringing my hands about the Rob Dillingham minutes? Probably not so much, but he's got to do it. And it gets harder and harder to level up, you know, the higher you get into superstardom.
- [34:46]
A
Well, the only the other team that I would probably mention in that discussion there, perhaps like dropping out of that core seven would be the warriors, who in addition to Lucas, just like his body fat percentage. The update we're getting all the time now is where is Jonathan Kaminga and his contract negotiations with the Warriors. Spoiler? Not very far because it just seems like they are now haggling over whether or not he would take a one year deal which would give him a de facto no trade clause versus a two year deal with a team option on the end of it in order to give the warriors control of an eventual trade of him. That's one part of this. But in addition to that, it seems like all the rest of their moves are hung up because they can't make a Kaminga move or they can't sign the guys that they're expected to sign. Al Horford, Anthony Melton and I believe Seth Curry are the names there until they deal with Kaminga because of the cap rules, by the way. I've never seen anything like that. And even a reporter won't even acknowledge that these deals are basically in pencil at this point. Maybe that's like a league we're trying to cut down on tampering. And so the reporters are going along with it, but all indications are they're going to sign those guys once they deal with Kaminga. But I'm left at a position where like, I don't know if those guys are the types I would be targeting in order to trudge through a regular season because we're talking about Horford, now 39 years old, Anthony Melton, who's played 44 games total over the past two years, and Seth Curry, who couldn't even break into the rotation of the Charlotte Hornets next year. And so I am worried, I think that the playoffs are a different story. We could talk about that. But getting to a high seed in the west is going to be very difficult for a team this old completely.
- [36:33]
B
This is where, you know, if you start to think about what the warriors are missing, they are missing those sorts of young legs that can get you through a regular season. They're missing the kinds of volume scores that are essential to relieve pressure on Steph and Jimmy in particular. They're missing something that sounds a lot like Jonathan Kaminga, if we're all being honest about it. And, and I say this as someone who thinks that the Kuminga experiment in Golden State has not really worked, has been disruptive. I think there's blame on both sides for that. In terms of the way he's been used and the positions he's been put in and also the way that Kaminga envisions his own career and his own talent and his understanding of how he fits into a greater team context, all of that has been a problem. But at this point, Golden State doesn't seem super keen on the sign and trade returns from teams like Sacramento and Phoenix. Who. If the Kings and the Sons are the ones who want to give you a big bag of money. Again, it's saying something I don't. You. You can infer for yourself what it says, but it says something. It does seem like a lot would be pointing to a potential return. And that's why it makes sense to haggle over the potential no trade clause. You know, in effect the potential team option from the warriors perspective and why they would want that and why they would want control over if they're not going to keep coming up to trade him for someone who can fill some of these needs because they just need younger stallions who can run the 82 game race. Like they need that a little bit more than what they have. Cause they have a lot of good players. They have a lot of guys that we like. D. Anthony Melton, case in point. Like a really good player when he's healthy. But when he's healthy is a pretty huge caveat with him these days.
- [38:04]
A
Yeah. And the weird thing is they almost have that reserve of young legs, but they're just not stabilizers in the way that you would need.
- [38:13]
B
Yeah.
- [38:13]
A
Because we still don't really know who Brandon Prajemsky is. He didn't have a very good postseason and fluctuated at times in the regular season. Had a much stronger second half than he did in the first half. Moses Moody, I don't know. He's a guy and I still kind.
- [38:30]
B
Of like him, but he has some real low. Like the lulls are intense.
- [38:35]
A
Right. And to your point about just the context, like, I don't think Kerr has necessarily fostered a lot of development and has been pretty quick to pull the leash on some of these guys when they aren't playing up to the level that he needs them to. And so it's just very messy. And I'm just wondering where the stability is coming from. I think you would say Steph and Jimmy. But like, I think we got the best version of Jimmy in that second half with the Warriors. The fact that he only missed two games after signing up with the warriors suggests to me that we might actually be in for the reverse next year where he is going to be a night to night question mark. And then you add Steph on top of that, who was paced a little bit more deliberately throughout the regular season. I'm just like, where are the regular season wins going to come from on a Wednesday night in Houston when Jimmy all of a sudden has an ankle turn? He's been out for two weeks.
- [39:29]
B
It was also like the record after trading for Jimmy was incredible. 23 and 7 overall after trading for him. That's with the team going basically all out for seating and all out for chemistry and all out to try to pull their season together. They cannot do that for 82 games. Again, like, that's not the kind of pacing you should want for a season like this. And that's where you know if you are going to indulge the sign in trade stuff for Kaminga, like the Kings offers have reportedly been a little underwhelming and there's been some haggling over, like Devin Carter in particular whether he could be involved in a deal. Like, if I were Golden State, like, I get why they're interested in Devin Carter. He's an interesting prospect. I'd be interested in Malik Monk, like, that's the kind of guy you need, is somebody who's going to just like be able to fill it up in a way that isn't quite as playmaking dependent as Buddy Heel, for example. Like you just need someone who's a scoring stabilizer in the way that Draymond is going to be a defensive stabilizer in the way that Jimmy and Steph are going to open things up for so many people around them in that Al Horford is going to facilitate a lot of that stuff. But you got to have someone who can really, really shoot. And I think the guys on this team, Seth Curry is a great percentage shooter, but it's so small. He struggles sometimes getting those shots off. Maybe that won't be as much of a problem in Golden State because of the movement of their offense. Buddy is so streaky. Brandon Pajemski's three in particular is so streaky, to say nothing about, you know, his decision making and the way that can kind of ebb and flow over the course of a season or even within a game. So like they just have again, another team with a lot of moving parts and a lot of variables. And what they really need is somebody who can get you 20 on a given night. And there aren't a lot of guys on this team that can actually do that.
- [41:00]
A
Yeah, they're the classic example of a team that needs a consolidation trade. But the players in order to get there are so compromised and their value is probably at such a low level at this point, it's hard to do that. Which is unfortunate because the whole value of having a two track plan is if you wanted to consolidate into one like clear track, you could just trade the young guys for a better player and all of a sudden there you are. But unfortunately, none of those guys has ever gotten there. It seems like Pajinski plays probably his best basketball because he's in a system that really brings out the best of his feel. You know, he is, he's very much a Warriors player, but when we get down into a playoff series, he obviously sacrifices some size and if the shooting's not there, it's hard to really play him for extended minutes. Kaminga's really the tension point of this entire team and for a lot of the league, because he should be the guy you use in order to get somebody else in there. But as you mentioned, the fact that the Kings and the Suns are the only team sniffing around is a pretty glaring indictment. And I just don't know what to do there. Because even if you bring him back, let's just say he signs a qualifying offer, is he not even going to be engaged in being a warrior because he just doesn't want to play the physical style in order to get. Because he's worried about getting hurt.
- [42:17]
B
Can I ask you a question? Has Jonathan Kuminga ever been engaged in.
- [42:20]
A
Being a warrior at times when all the good players aren't on the court? Unfortunately, yes.
- [42:26]
B
I mean, that's where you know that's what the money is for. Right? That is the big dangling carrot, is if you do take the qualifying, you're putting a big bet on yourself, but you're also accepting all the risk that comes with that. And so that risk in some ways is production based. Like, right, you need to go out and deliver in a way that's going to entice other teams to give you your next deal. It's also intel based and you need to go out and be like kind of a good soldier who can prove you can be a part of something or else the other the only teams that are going to be interested in you are teams like the Kings and the Suns. So if you want to expand your market beyond that and maybe he doesn't care about that, maybe he just wants the guaranteed money. And I am certainly not begrudging him that, like, take the $90 million deal if you can get it, but ultimately, he's going to have a lot to prove regardless. We haven't seen many players take the qualifying. It's been increasing rarity, especially as the guaranteed contract values have gone up around the league. It's just hard to not talk yourself into some kind of security.
- [43:23]
A
Was it about the money for Peggy and Don, though? You know, when it. When you really boil it down.
- [43:28]
B
Yeah.
- [43:28]
A
Was it more about the acceptance that the money suggests?
- [43:33]
B
Well, one follows the other, doesn't it? Doesn't. Doesn't it symbolize something?
- [43:37]
A
Have you not seen Mad Men?
- [43:38]
B
I have seen Mad Men. I know what you're talking about, but.
- [43:41]
A
You just don't live and die by these cool quotes that get tossed.
- [43:44]
B
That's what the money is like. I'm citing it specifically for this reason. I don't know who is the Peggy and who is the Don? I guess. I guess Mike Dunleavy is the Don and Jonathan Kuminga is the Peggy.
- [43:54]
A
I guess so, yeah. But it really wasn't about the money, is what I'm saying. And it might not be for Jonathan Kaminga. He just wants to be the bright, shining star, wants someone to tell him that's who he is. And so I think even if he comes back on the qualifying and even if he has everybody telling him, hey, you have to be a good soldier in order to get what you want, I don't even know if he'll get there because he just wants to prove that he can be a superstar. And, like, you know what? We're all just humans in the end. And so, like, I don't. I don't begrudge him for it. It's not about the money.
- [44:22]
B
No. This whole situation is so busted at this point. Like, honestly, the Kamingo warriors relationship. And I'm not saying this based on, like, some murmuring behind the scenes. I'm just saying it based on the developmental track and the frustrations on both sides. This does not feel like a salvageable relationship. And in that way, I would hope that Golden State could take a lot of lessons from this. I would hope that Steve Kerr has learned a lot from this process. And when you think about players like Brandon Pajemski and how much rope you give them and how you want them to feel a part of it, in addition to not just, like, playing their role within the Steph and Draymond and Jimmy Butler machine, but having the flexibility to be creative, to stretch out their games, to do the kinds of things that Jonathan Kuminga was wanted do to do and was capable of doing. There has to be a happier medium than this. There's got to be a better outcome than getting to this kind of inflection point.
- [45:10]
A
Yeah, it's at a weird point where I would feel better about the warriors if they did make one of these trades in order to just get capable bodies into the spot of Kaminga, just because they would have more options that at the very least cycle through rotation. Players like Devin Carter is a prime example where first of all, I can't believe we're at the point where we're trading Devin Carter, who was supposed to be the second coming of Davion Mitchell.
- [45:33]
B
But now not trading Devon Carter. That's the whole thing.
- [45:36]
A
Well, it sounds like they want to, right? But they're more haggling over the pick would be where the sticking point is. The proposal, according to espn, was Devon Carter, Dario Sarich and a protected first. And I think the warriors would prefer that to be an unprotected first, especially considering the Kings future or media even.
- [45:57]
B
Shout out to our guy, Anthony Slater, by the way, who has been all over this particular beat and has been like locked in. As somebody who has covered the warriors and the K about as well as anybody, it's. This is Slater time. You know, I'm glad to see him really thriving at ESPN doing the TV hits already. You know, like this is. This is a Slater story.
- [46:14]
A
He's hitting the ground running. Do you want to talk about the Kings here? Because we have them on our list as well. I do feel like this has been one of the more baffling off seasons for any team in recent history, but it almost feels like they're still trying to one up themselves by getting into the Kaminga Derby.
- [46:34]
B
It's really fucking bleak. I. It's. It just feels worse and worse. I know not a lot is happening at this point. The. But the more that all of that sets in, the more all of it crystallizes and you're kind of like wrapping your arms around what this team is and is going to be. The Kings feel trapped in a way that no other team in the league feels. Trapped to the point where I. I genuinely think I would take any other team's future over theirs. I don't like the position that they're in. They have good, talented players, but they are for one, boxed out by all of the good west teams we have already talked about. They just do not have a path to being a top six team in particular, I think there's a path in which they are not Even in the play in. And I think there's also a path in which they make the play in. But making it is a Bulls esque affirmation of the roster that they have constructed and thus only encouraging the direction that they're going in, which might be worse than that. They just made this huge investment in Zach Lavine and they're soon going to have to make another big investment in him again or he's going to walk out the door, which both outcomes would be kind of bad in their own way. They just made a huge investment in Dennis Schroeder for reasons that no one can quite understand. The best players on the team, the ones you would ostensibly trade if you did want to change directions in any kind of way whatsoever, all have such heavy caveats that they don't have trade markets that there is no real market for. You know, like what Sacramento gets from Damon is Sabonis is so much better than what almost any other team would give up for Demonis Sabonis that there's no reason to trade him. And so then you're left with these like, I don't know, they're not golden handcuffs, they're like rusted like tetanus bound handcuffs. And you're just stuck here. You're basically in a saw like reverse bear trap situation in which you, you cannot get out of this. I don't know what you're supposed to do if you're the Kings and you, to be very clear, have created this problem for yourself.
- [48:23]
A
Remember a couple weeks ago when we were expecting Sabonis to have like some sort of conversations about potentially like seeing if there's a trade out there for. I don't know if it was coming from the Kings or Sabonis end, but there was supposed to be like a, a meeting of the minds to figure out his future there and then just nothing happened. Partly probably because there isn't a market for Sabonis because he doesn't really fit anywhere else. And also the Kings can't necessarily get rid of him because he's still their, his, their best player easily, like not even close their best player and yet doesn't totally fit with some of the other players they're bringing in over the course of the past six months. And if they bring in Kaminga, that only complicates the fit because those are both too well, I guess. Sabonis is shooting threes now, but he's still doing it at a very low volume but like very high level though.
- [49:10]
B
High accuracy for Sabonis for sure.
- [49:12]
A
He was excellent last year on like a couple a game. But to bring in Kaminga certainly isn't going to boost the spacing in order to, to help overall. And so it's just a very complicated situation. I think the question as you kind of brought up there is like, who has the worst future from this point forward? I think the only two other teams in consideration are the Suns, who they find themselves in a derby with in order to get Kaminga. But ultimately they have Devin Booker and they have some other stuff. I think my watch is interesting. We'll see about that. But they don't have any other first round picks to trade at this point and so they are locked in.
- [49:49]
B
We should say that about the Kings. Like they don't really have a ton of picks out the door really. They have control of a lot of their own future draft destiny other than like one pretty distant swap with the spurs down the line. And I think they have that offsetting because they have an incoming Wolves pick that's also way down the line. So the draft position is fine. But the young players that the Kings have drafted have also been like kind of okay. Like it's guys who are role players, guys who have leveled out. No one is like there's been no transformational pick in there. And so ideally you would want some young talent or the track record scouting wise to show that you can find the young talent that's going to change his team. And they don't really have that either.
- [50:23]
A
Yeah. So it's really. Do you prefer a situation where Devin Booker is trapped in a, in a bathroom saw like attached to a toilet or whatever it was, I mean, or.
- [50:35]
B
Attached to the NBA's most expensive toilet? Like he's setting records for the contract extension. He's just. I think he's going to be all right.
- [50:43]
A
Yeah, he's just counting his money while on the toilet. Perhaps, but it's a toilet nonetheless. Let's not be there. But versus the Kings, who have options, but we have no faith that they would make something out of that potential in those options. And the only other team I think we could talk about in this whole mix is the Pelicans, who are in a similar situation where not only do they have picks, but they also have so many young players that they only have two players over the age of 27 on the entire roster, one of whom is Kavon Mooney, who they just brought in this off season in order to give them one of like five center options that they have at this point. And then they have Dejante Murray, their big pickup from last offseason. But other than that, it's just a lot of young guys. And so again, I have no faith in this organization. They've made virtually all the wrong moves since Joe Dumars has taken over, but they have so much young talent, it's possible that they might stumble into something that they didn't intend to.
- [51:41]
B
I think that's a real possibility. I also think if you gave a lot of teams in the league the opportunity to say, hey, you can have any player from the, from these two rosters from the Pelicans or the Sacramento Kings, I think there's a not insignificant number of teams that would take Trey Murphy as just like the safest, most flexible, most versatile player on the board, where you don't have the injury risk hanging over someone like Zion, you don't have the ceiling lowering quality of someone like Sabonis who kind of defines how you play and thus defines how good you can be as a team. He's just an open ended player who could fit with almost anybody. And so his trade market, if the Pelicans ever needed to, to investigate that, I think would be pretty incredible. I think there'd be a lot of really competitive offers. That just doesn't exist for Zach LaVine, that just doesn't exist for DeMar DeRozan. And God forbid, if they do make that Jonathan Kaminga trade, if the Kings start Dennis Schroeder, Zach Lavine, DeMar DeRozan, Jonathan Kamiga, Demonis a bonus, I think we need to go on a hunger strike. I think we're going to have to take some drastic measures before we watch another Kings game.
- [52:41]
A
Yeah. If you factored in contracts, I almost wonder if you might take, if you were to take the three teams and almost draft the players. Yeah, I think Trey Murphy might be at the top there. I mean, Devin Booker would be the obvious one. But if you don't want to be paying 75 million in like a couple of years and you'd prefer like a good player on a more cost control contract, I'd consider it at the very least.
- [53:03]
B
To be clear, I'm talking just Pelicans and Kings. I think Devin Booker might be too good to. But like that contract is what it is and it is cumbersome in its own way. Depending on kind of like where you are in your cycle and honestly where the Suns are in their cycle. It's, it's a bit of a, I don't know, it's, it's, it's a lot of weight to carry around on your cap sheet, that's for sure.
- [53:23]
A
All right, let's. Let's flip to the east now. A conference that, you know, I just want to just, like, kind of talk through and. And just kind of like, bet on certain teams, but ultimately, I'm just, like, washed over by malaise. Just. There's just not a lot of spice going on here. But the door is open for somebody, right? And I think, naturally you would look to our Cleveland Cavaliers, our team of the season from the past season. Our guy, Jared Allen, who just got married and is doing High School Musical dances. I don't know if you pulled that out at your wedding.
- [54:00]
B
Did not. But congratulations to Jared Allen. We're very happy for him.
- [54:03]
A
Did you do any dancing at your wedding? Any choreographed dancing?
- [54:07]
B
Absolutely not. Justin. I can't think of something I would want to do less than choreographed dancing. That's about. About at the bottom of the list.
- [54:15]
A
I would want to see you dance, but other than that.
- [54:18]
B
Yeah, well, you know what? If you. If and when you get married, I will do a choreographed dance at your wedding, if you so choose.
- [54:25]
A
Okay. Well, there was no chance that I was going to get married, but now there's like, a sliver of chances for that possibility.
- [54:29]
B
You got a slice of pie.
- [54:31]
A
There you go. I think the Cavs are the clear, obvious candidate to just win the conference again. I have to say, I've just been left cold by the postseason performance. I know the Pacers ultimately ended up being something of a team of destiny, but the fact that Darius Garland is compromised and they did have injuries elsewhere on the roster, but still kind of limped out of that second round series and didn't really have much to show for what was such a triumphant come up over the course of the regular season. I'm just a little. I don't know, I'm just a little dubious at this point, especially considering Garland has the toe surgery, might not be back until, what, November perhaps. Toes are tricky, and considering the depth they have in the team now, maybe they'll pace him back. But I'm just finding it hard, I guess, is we're like piloting ideas here of finding much belief in the Cavs being this the conference by the throat team and carry that through the playoffs.
- [55:27]
B
They would have to do something we haven't seen them do before. And so it always takes a bit of imagination to get to that point of like, okay, how do they become the sort of playoff competitor that we saw them be in the regular season? How do they overwhelm in that kind of juggernaut style. And can they do that? Do they have the personnel to do that? Do they have the moving pieces to like tactically evolve over the course of a series? I kind of just don't quite see it. Especially when you think about where the east is right now. There is a team that has a proven regular season track record that's consistent playoff results. Why would the New York Knicks not be the favorite by default?
- [56:02]
A
I like it. I think that's where I'm leaning. That was my like inkling last season and so perhaps I'm just carrying that over. But it's the same team as last year with the depth pieces and perhaps a new voice in order to pace them out through a regular season. In order to get to the point where Jalen Brunson isn't on minute 50,000 by the second round.
- [56:23]
B
Well and hopefully some of the mechanisms that Mike Brown could install into their offense would not just lighten the minutes load on Jalen Brunson, but some of the creative load. Broaden things out, diversify things a little bit. Like guys like Carl Anthony towns, Mikhail Bridges, OGN and OB2. They can all do a lot and you can simplify their roles and streamline them and make them hyper efficient machines in very particular ways. You can also trust them to do a little bit more than they were really doing, particularly by the end of last season. I think that's going to be really important in terms of the overall like long term health of the Knicks offense and their ability to stand up series over series over series against increasingly difficult competition. I also think Gershon Yabu Sale could wind up being one of the most important signings of the summer. Not one of the best players but a a good player for a team that was already contending that had fairly limited resources and to get someone like Gabuseli for the taxpayer mid level is a huge huge deal. He opens up a lot in terms of the like the rotation. He's shoring up a really critical spot where they just did not have actual forward depth to the point that they just had like really their only option was play Josh Hart more in terms of keeping the rotation like playoff solvent. Now you have a guy who is good at the four and the five who gives you another stretch option behind Kat if you want to keep stretchy. If it's not a Mitchell Robinson kind of matchup like whatever the situation might be, there's room for Yabuzeli in in the lineup. They didn't have enough of Those guys off the bench, you know, like Jordan Clarkson, we'll see, I think is a little bit more. I don't know, a little bit more of a variable in that exact way. Like, I don't know what to expect from him. I'm optimistic. Yabuzeli. I know what to expect because he just fucking showed up for a Sixers team that was going nowhere. He, then he, before that, showed up for a French national team that was competing at the highest levels in the Olympics. Like, that guy is a gamer, and he can play in exactly the way the Knicks need him to play.
- [58:09]
A
Yeah, I know. It became kind of a running gag toward the end of last regular season where it's Mitchell Robinson, save us, because he was their only option off the bench. But once he actually kind of popped in the playoffs, they did seem like a completely different team. And then as Tibbs started to mine the depths of his bench just to find any sort of minutes, you just saw things kind of ease up a little bit, and everything became a little bit easier. And so they actually have a bench, and that's a good starting point. And we saw already the returns of having just a facsimile of that. And I do wonder if this ultimately becomes a Brown conversation about how much he can find some sort of offense that isn't just like asking the world of both Jalen Brunson and Carl Anthony Towns. What did you feel about that hire to begin with?
- [58:58]
B
Fine.
- [58:59]
A
Yeah, fine.
- [59:01]
B
I mean, this. The whole situation has been kind of odd where I didn't really get the urgency to fire Tibbs in the first place. I'm not privy to everything that's going on behind the scenes there by any stretch. So it's like maybe there's just some enough rumbling, enough chatter in the locker room, enough loss of faith that something like that felt urgent and necessary. As far as, like, coaches go, tibs for Mike Brown, like, they're both two pretty good coaches. Like, they. They both do a pretty good job, generally speaking, with their circumstances, and so you're getting a little more offensive creativity. But Mike Brown isn't the kind of guy you bring in necessarily expect to transform your team, unless you're the Sacramento Kings with Demonis a bonus, like, May, maybe that's enough of a. Of a precedent to think, okay, given similar personnel, he can achieve dramatically different results. There's not a lot of room for the Knicks to go up in terms of the offensive hierarchy of the league. Like, they're already a very productive regular season offense, but in terms of the solvency of that offense in the playoffs. I think the Knicks left a lot to be desired. They clearly have a lot to figure out as far as like dealing with all of all of the machinations of what other teams can throw at you when they really have a chance to key in on your weaknesses and your limitations and when they really, really know beyond a sliver of a doubt, you're just going to kind of give the ball to Jalen Brunson and let him cook. You want to have some something in your back pocket, some reversal, some other option, some alternative. And I think Mike Brown will do a good job of that if nothing else.
- [60:21]
A
Yeah, Mike Brown came out of the warrior system kind of reborn as something of like a spiritual guru, like a good vibes guy. And I think part of that is just because he is one of the best on mic vibes guys of the coaching ranks. And I think it kind of gave this assumption, especially considering the offense that they played, that he's a little bit more Steve Kerr when historically I think he's much more of a hard nosed taskmaster defensively first sort of guy. And I almost wonder if that came to a head when he got ousted from Sacramento when there report that he and Deer and Fox clashed a little bit and ultimately the organization ended up choosing Fox in that regard and then ended up getting rid of both of them. And now there is a real like consider the source there to consider. But I almost wonder if we're merging those two versions, if that's not the best for what the Knicks need. Because what they they didn't need a completely different voice, they just needed the same sort of approach, just augmented enough and it just seemed like it Tibbs, for whatever reason just will not go to that unless he is literally forced to do so, which he was in the postseason. So could they be the same sort of grinder mentality team but with a little bit more of a structured approach offensively that leverages some more of their depth? I can see Brown being that sort of guy.
- [61:46]
B
I mean that would be a huge improvement like over what the Knicks have kind of had. Not just in terms of coaching, but like the identity of the team and the spirit of the team. If they did have some of that at their disposal, I think Mike Brown is that guy. I think if you talk to players, even if you see the occasional like practice footage that will leak out in a promotional capacity, like he is the kind of coach who holds players accountable, like he is getting into players, he is warm and fuzzy with the media, you Know, hook it up with the. With the best of them. But, like, he is not a pushover as a coach. And so this is a team that I think could use some of that in the same way that they benefited from it with Tibbs. And if they can also get some of everything else that comes with a Mike Brown offense and with a Mike Brown ecosystem, at least in the early stages of it, as we saw in Sacramento, that'd be a huge boon.
- [62:32]
A
Is there anybody else that's in the mix here that we should talk about.
- [62:35]
B
As far as the Eastern Conference goes?
- [62:37]
A
Yeah, just all the top of the East.
- [62:39]
B
I mean, those feel like the natural two candidates to win the east, specifically in the regular season, in the playoffs. Like, I got no clue. You know, like, the. The Magic are an enormous variable in many different ways. I think they're a team that, at this point, it's kind of a make or break season for the Magic. I know they just traded for Desmond Bain, but when you trade basically five picks for a guy, just being frisky in the first round is not really good, good enough anymore. Like, now you are competing for something different. You're raising the level of expectation for this group. And if the Magic don't show some kind of progress, and to be clear, I think they could. I think they could win the east in the regular season. I think they could win the east in terms of going to the finals. Like, they have a lot going for them right now. If they don't do that, I think things start heating up really quickly for two people in particular. Jamal Mosley. We just talked about Tibbs, like, good, good coaches can get fired, and I think Jamal Mosley is a good coach. And I think that there's an outcome to this Magic season where it's just not quite good enough and he ends up being let go. Jalen Suggs, if the Magic don't deliver, is like a really natural trade candidate for a bunch of different reasons. And so he's a guy who I think you could look at and say, man, I really hope they bring it together. I really hope he keeps healthy over the course of the season. I love Jalen Suggs and what he brings to this team, but if they need something else, then maybe they need something else. And I think to a lesser extent, basically, like the entire supported cast, if you're Anthony Black, if you're Wendell Carter, if you're Tristan De Silva or Jett Howard, like, things could go sideways for you incredibly quickly if you don't have the kind of outcome for this season that the Magic might want. And I think that pushing in in the way that they did with Bane puts brings everything to a head very, very quickly in terms of those expectations.
- [64:17]
A
Right. We didn't even talk about Franz Wagner being able to hit maybe two threes a game or Paul Bankero taking the leap that like he's expected to.
- [64:26]
B
Yes, Franz's jumper, at some point it's gotta hit, I guess, or we just have to accept that it never will. And things have been trending more in the latter direction than the former. I think there's been stretches where he's been quite successful, but at, at absolute best, he's an incredibly streaky shooter. Luckily he's a great defender, he's a great driver, he's a good playmaker. He has lots of other things going for his game, but he also needs to be able to shoot and Paolo needs to be able to shoot at least a little bit to make that thing work.
- [64:53]
A
And so do you think like the pressure is more on Suggs because of the injury history or because for instance, his contract is probably a bit more movable than Wagner who's on a max. And so despite some of the concerns, like you actually have to just kind of live with that.
- [65:08]
B
I think it is the injury history for sure. Like if Jalen Suggs just isn't going to be able to stay consistently healthy, it just changes who he is as a player. It changes the way that you think about him from an organizational standpoint. Like how can he be a load bearing member of our team if we just don't know if he's going to be on the floor? Brings me no joy to say that. Like, I think Jalen Suggs is awesome, but he's also not Franz Wagner as far as the contributions of what he brings and Franz in, like, I think Paolo is kind of cemented there in his own way. I think Franz is basically cemented there as well. It has to be like something really dramatic happening for you as an organization to look at a player as young and as productive and as promising as Franz Wagner, with or without the three and say that's a guy we should investigate trading. Like, I think he might just be too good for a team that's in the Magic's position to really indulge that kind of idea.
- [65:59]
A
Yeah, this is going to be a big season in order to test how special Paulo is because he causes so much like just lineup configuration in order to to kind of fit around him. So for instance, if you want him to be your primary ball Handler you probably need also a center in there when Will Carter will probably get the first shot at that. Obviously they'll work in Jonathan Isaac for the 10 minutes a game that he's capable of playing at this point, but then you're sacrificing some supplementary ball handling if you're presuming to play Suggs and Bane. There's a world in which all these guys do a little bit of everything. It just, it seems like though their best lineup would have the center, but you're losing kind of the safety valve of having a more pass. First point guard Tyus Jones being in reserve there is a prime option. And so I, I just, I think it's going to cause a lot of tension up front if there are expectations because I think this is the type of team that needs to like play through some of their mistakes in order to find their best selves. And so do they play more of a point guard first with that lineup and just live with some of the Apollo at center minutes? You can get away with that maybe in crunch time, I don't know. Or do they just force this and just say, paolo, you're our driving force. You have to be your best self.
- [67:18]
B
I think you're right to identify that tension in particular Paolo because he is neither a four who is super comfortable playing the five and I don't think has been up to that level defensively, hasn't been up to that level as a rebounder to really make that kind of thing work. He's also not the kind of ultra versatile forward who's just like a straight point forward, right? Like he is in that in the middle zone where he does need space to be successful, he does need backline defensive help to be successful. And at the same time he isn't always as forceful as you might want him to be. I think in part because he hasn't had the room to operate. And so hopefully bringing in Bane helps with that. Hopefully bringing in Tyus Jones for, you know, whatever role he's deployed off the bench helps with some of that. But in those op, in those best case lineups, the crunch time lineups, the starters, however you want to think about it, he needs to find ways to bridge those sorts of divides where you don't have to make these either or decisions on either side of the rotation around him, where Paolo as a superstar is taking a huge step forward and being able to do some of those supplementary things at an adequate enough level to. Okay now Wendell Carter makes sense as our five. Okay now Jalen Suggs makes sense as our point guard. There's the inkling of all that, but it just, like, has not fully formed yet.
- [68:27]
A
Yeah. The case for the Magic kind of having just a miracle season, they get the one seed, they win the east would be that they have such a clear identity and Bane slides so neatly into that that allows them to carry on while still figuring out some of these things more on the fringes. These become ancillary issues as opposed to frontline ones. And the fact that they're so not only just good defensively, but so physical, and Bane just fits that to a T. I wonder if that might actually be the floor razor that gets them through. And that's where it ultimately becomes a Suggs conversation as well, because he is something of, like, the spiritual totem of this team, and we saw that team kind of fall apart where he wasn't there in the second half of the season. And so if we're talking about trading size or diminishing his role in order to make the lineup fit, it just starts getting very difficult at that point, because to me, like, he kind of is, at the very least, the shining beacon of who this team thinks it is. And if we have to play Ty Jones over him, then it's just like, who are we? Maybe that's also for the best, because then you become Apollo team because he's so good that you have to follow his lead. But I think there's a pathway, I will say, for this team to ultimately get there while not necessarily blowing the doors off of teams in the regular season, just because there's just so much there. In order to solve problems, they really.
- [69:49]
B
Need to avoid the kinds of complications they ran into last seasons with all of these injuries piling up, all of these offsetting absences. And Suggs is a huge part of that. And another way in which you're absolutely right, Like, I would want to invest in Jalen Suggs as a culture setter. I want to invest in Jalen Suggs as a basketball player. Do I want to continue to invest in Jalen Suggs as a person with a back and a knee and a hand and a whatever that, like, tends to pick up these injuries that take him out of the lineup? It's a more difficult proposition. And so either the Magic are going to get through this season relatively healthy and in one piece, and if so, I think they're going to be really, really good and really, really competitive against every other team in the east, at minimum, if they have those complications again, though, then it forces these harder conversations because then you're just like not being able to avoid the disastrous outcomes.
- [70:40]
A
Yeah, well, one team that definitely isn't going to be in the mix for for the top of the east is the Washington Wizards. Who are you sure were I'm not 100% sure. Don't threaten me with a good time here, buddy. This is the point in the pod where Woz would force us to stop because we're on the precipice of talking about the Wizards. But we're just gonna plow through because this is the summer and Rob and I are having some fun. I honestly think that the Wizards might be one of my favorite league pass teams. I think they probably are already last year and they've only like kind of compounded upon that where they're now at the point, Rob, where they have nine recent first round picks up and down the roster. And so if you loyal listener are saying like I don't know if I want to sit through the CJ McCollum and Chris Middleton like old timey show, let me tell you, first of all they're not going to be playing maybe even half the games next year. But two, there is so much young stuff to like figure out on the fly athletes. Now they actually have shooting in order to compliment some of those athletes. I was already intrigued. Now I am titillated.
- [71:46]
B
I think the titillation is justified. I think as far as league pass darlings go, they have the roster is almost broken up into two categories of player, both of which are very important for league pass viewing. 1 Guys who are just fun to watch, Cook Bub Carrington, Cam Whitmore. Honestly, I throw CJ McCollum into this mix when he's going incredibly like aesthetically pleasing score to watch. Malachi Branham, a guy who I have stand may be strong supported on this podcast, previously kind of went off a cliff last season. But when he's cooking, an absolute delight to watch. The other category of guy mixer, mystery box player who could be literally anything and I honestly don't know what it is yet. You got your Bilal Kula Bali, you got your Alex Sars, Obviously Keyshawn George, A.J. johnson. Just so many mystery boxes to unpack. And so when you have that combination of stuff happening in real time every night, in addition to just like a good core of guys who actually play pretty hard, why wouldn't they be one of your favorite teams to watch?
- [72:46]
A
They also have Trey Johnson who has that mix of like, just like a smooth shooter but also an athlete. And so I think he not only will be interesting in his own right, but fits this team. And they also picking up Dylan Jones off the scrap heap who one of my favorite players, if only because he's built like a Mini Cooper, where you would think someone of that girth would be like a center type, but in fact is more of a wing who's just one of the OKC players they just couldn't afford to keep because they have so many good players that we're talking about their deep second rounders being interesting at summer league. It's just like there's just so much to figure out which if I'm a league pass viewer, that first and foremost is number one on my checklist. Number two is the fact that once again they play in the east coast time slot. Not a lot of sizzle there. And so if this is like the amuse bouche perhaps to the bigger double headers that are going to come in like the 7 7:30pm Eastern Time Zone range, I could see it.
- [73:48]
B
I mean just really opens up the appetite. I could see us watching a lot of the opening 30 minutes to an hour of a Warriors game before the other games click on and then yeah, you flip over to the prime time. Yeah, you flip over to that heavyweight bout in the West. But those first quarters, they're getting pretty juicy. And I'm going to be honest, I'm going to be spending a lot of time with the Wizards overall. I'm not going to, I'm not going to limit myself to just that early time slot. I'm going in for the morning synergy dive, you know, like I'm, I'm really going to see what's going on with these guys. I'm thrilled to watch them in action in a way that, to be honest, I am not thrilled to watch a lot of Eastern Conference teams next season.
- [74:22]
A
Will you watch more first quarters of the Washington Wizards or the Cleveland Cavaliers next year?
- [74:28]
B
Oh, good question. Well, here's the thing about the Cavs. If their regular season is anything like this one, the first quarter might be the only competitive part. So if you want to watch the Cavs actually tested, that might be the time to do it. But I take your point. I think the Cavs, weirdly enough, after having such a transformative year, are kind of now right back in the same position they were before, which is like kind of feel like we know who this team is. Kind of feel like we know what their strengths and limitations are. Where are we going to find the variance in that? Where are we going to find Them kind of deviating from the script in a way that's going to make them an even more formidable team. I guess we'll find out, but I'm not sure they have that in them. I don't know what the Wizards have in them. And so from the surprise factor alone, like, how could I not be tuning.
- [75:08]
A
In for that Wizards optimism? That's how we go out on a July 31. I don't know what the schedule is from here. I think group chat might be checking in sometime in August. Might be a wise only show because Rob and I are doing a little vacay.
- [75:24]
B
Do you think he's together?
- [75:26]
A
Well, if you want to do together.
- [75:28]
B
You know what, I'm open and available, Justin, but I would love a Woz style, like full cowherd monologue. I mean, I would say segment, but let's just do the whole pod. Let's just do 45 minutes to an hour was off the dome.
- [75:40]
A
Yeah, we might have to then sit through his suspension that arises as a result of it. But you know, we could do that again. We could have a lot more Wizards talk, but be on the. Look at that. Look out for that sometime in August and then we'll be back to the flow of things in September. Until then, have a good summer, everyone. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Our guy who we should mention in terms of like, how we're spending our summer, was looking up just random highlight videos of brand Brad Watermaker before he got onto this pod. So if you're looking forward to what Isaiah's up to, reach out to him on Twitter. Ask him which random highlight packages he's indulging in these days.
- [76:22]
B
Honestly would love an Isaiah like tweet of the day or Instagram of the day of just whatever player he's locked in on. Just some food for thought, you know, just some content to put out there in the world.
- [76:32]
A
That's it for us. We'll talk to you next time.