Wolves Wallop the Thunder. Plus, How a Pacers Finals Run Could Alter the East Long-Term. | Group Chat

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ringer NBA Show – "Wolves Wallop the Thunder. Plus, How a Pacers Finals Run Could Alter the East Long-Term. | Group Chat"

Release Date: May 25, 2025

In this engaging episode of The Ringer NBA Show, hosts Justin Ferrier and Rob Mahoney delve deep into the recent performance of the Minnesota Timberwolves and the Indiana Pacers' remarkable Finals run. The conversation offers comprehensive analysis, insightful commentary, and strategic discussions relevant to NBA enthusiasts.

---

1. Minnesota Timberwolves Dominate Oklahoma City Thunder

a. Terrence Shannon's Impact

The episode kicks off with a breakdown of the Timberwolves' impressive 143-101 victory over the Thunder in Game Three of the Western Conference Finals. Rob Mahoney highlights Terrence Shannon's pivotal role:

Rob Mahoney (03:16): "He stepped up in his moment... played exactly the way you want your young role players to enter a series and play."

Shannon's performance underscores his growing legacy and importance to the Wolves' playoff aspirations.

b. Defensive Masterclass

Justin Ferrier and Rob Mahoney commend the Timberwolves' defensive adjustments, emphasizing increased pressure and intelligent play:

Rob Mahoney (03:54): "The best adjustment you can make... is play with a fuck ton more force than the last."

This intensified defense not only limited Oklahoma City's scoring but also forced turnovers, setting the tone early in the game.

c. Anthony Edwards' Stellar Play

Anthony Edwards ("Ant") emerges as a standout player, showcasing versatility and aggressiveness:

Justin Ferrier (06:46): "We got to talk about ant. 30 points in 30 minutes. Pretty good."

Rob Mahoney adds to this praise, noting Edwards' ability to exploit mismatches and his "God tier" athleticism.

d. Coaching Strategies and Adaptations

The hosts discuss Coach Chris Finch's tactical decisions, particularly regarding ball movement and player roles:

Justin Ferrier (07:30): "How aggressive for him or do you think it was something more tactical that Chris Finch did?"

Rob Mahoney attributes the team's success to both individual effort and strategic coaching:

Rob Mahoney (08:46): "Ant played like a superstar... everything that he needed to be for the Wolves to be successful in this series."

e. Sustainability of the Timberwolves' Performance

While celebrating the dominant win, Justin Ferrier questions the repeatability of such performances:

Justin Ferrier (11:03): "How much of this is repeatable going into a game four."

Rob Mahoney remains optimistic, suggesting that Game Four will be more competitive but acknowledges the challenge ahead.

---

2. Indiana Pacers’ Finals Run and Eastern Conference Outlook

a. Pacers vs Knicks Series Breakdown

Transitioning to the Eastern Conference, the discussion focuses on the Pacers' performance against the Knicks. The hosts highlight Indiana's execution and the Knicks' defensive shortcomings:

Unnamed Speaker (22:32): "Indiana is executing at an insanely high level... the synergy is on another level."

Rob Mahoney emphasizes the Pacers' defensive prowess and ability to exploit Knicks' weaknesses:

Rob Mahoney (24:01): "They are really good, and I think there's a lot to take away from that success."

b. Pascal Siakam's Crucial Role

Pascal Siakam emerges as a game-changer for the Pacers, with his versatile play impacting both ends of the floor:

Rob Mahoney (30:58): "Siakam is ready to seize all those opportunities... punish the wings and punish the smalls."

Justin Ferrier praises Siakam's development and his significant contribution to the Pacers' strategy:

Justin Ferrier (32:24): "His ability to score on the move to screen, to hit spot up shots... he deserves a lot of Love there for that."

c. Team Depth and Roster Construction

The conversation shifts to the importance of a well-rounded roster. Rob Mahoney lauds the Pacers for their depth, especially in overcoming injuries to key players like Isaiah Jackson and James Wiseman:

Rob Mahoney (54:36): "That's keeping in mind two of their guys that were supposed to be rotation bigs for them are out for the season... they're still getting nine or ten guys making real actual impact on these games."

d. Coaching and Developmental Success

Justin Ferrier and Rob Mahoney commend Coach Rick Carlisle for his strategic acumen and player development:

Rob Mahoney (55:21): "That's a scouting success. That's the developmental success, that's a coaching success."

---

3. Broader Implications for the Eastern Conference

a. Evolving Team Strategies

The hosts explore the shifting landscape of team building in the NBA, emphasizing the trend toward balanced, versatile rosters over star-heavy lineups:

Justin Ferrier (48:00): "Talent is better and more widely distributed, is it actually better to be rock solid and very good at every position as opposed to making sacrifices at certain positions."

b. Predictions for Future Seasons

Rob Mahoney offers insights into potential moves and team performances in the upcoming seasons, touching on teams like the Cleveland Cavaliers, Boston Celtics, and Milwaukee Bucks:

Rob Mahoney (45:00): "The Pacers are really good, and I think there's a lot to take away from that success... every NBA team should be doing, as far as I'm concerned."

c. The Importance of Depth and Versatility

The discussion underscores the necessity for teams to possess depth and the ability to adapt, citing the Pacers and Timberwolves as prime examples:

Rob Mahoney (51:08): "You need a uniform approach and a lot of buy-in from a lot of different people to become the Indiana Pacers."

---

4. Key Takeaways and Conclusions

• Balanced Roster Wins: Teams with depth and versatile players, like the Pacers and Timberwolves, have a competitive edge in the playoffs.

• Strategic Coaching: Effective coaching strategies and player development are crucial for maximizing team potential.

• Player Versatility: Players like Pascal Siakam and Anthony Edwards, who can impact multiple facets of the game, are invaluable assets.

• Eastern Conference Dynamics: The Eastern Conference appears more open and competitive, with several teams positioning themselves as serious contenders for future championships.

Justin Ferrier (68:43): "I think what we've kind of gotten here in our conclusion is to be great. Just be great as soon as possible."

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Rob Mahoney (03:16): "He stepped up in his moment... played exactly the way you want your young role players to enter a series and play."

• Justin Ferrier (06:46): "We got to talk about ant. 30 points in 30 minutes. Pretty good."

• Rob Mahoney (08:46): "Ant played like a superstar... everything that he needed to be for the Wolves to be successful in this series."

• Unnamed Speaker (22:32): "Indiana is executing at an insanely high level... the synergy is on another level."

• Rob Mahoney (30:58): "Siakam is ready to seize all those opportunities... punish the wings and punish the smalls."

• Justin Ferrier (32:24): "His ability to score on the move to screen, to hit spot up shots... he deserves a lot of Love there for that."

• Rob Mahoney (51:08): "You need a uniform approach and a lot of buy-in from a lot of different people to become the Indiana Pacers."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode provides a thorough analysis of the Minnesota Timberwolves' triumph over the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Indiana Pacers' exceptional performance in the Eastern Conference Finals. The hosts adeptly highlight the significance of team depth, strategic coaching, and player versatility in shaping successful NBA franchises. As the Eastern Conference landscape continues to evolve, the insights shared offer valuable perspectives for fans and analysts alike.

Transcript

[Justin Ferrier]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Basketball fans know that a great assist can change the game and there's no greater assist than one from State Farm. State Farm is here to help you navigate the right coverage for your home car and more. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm Bloomington, IL coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. You're listening to the Ringer MBA show presented by FanDuel. America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game even after tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back, relax and track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. If you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21/ and present in select states. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hello and.

[Justin Ferrier]

Welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Ferrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney. Big Wads. Now I know a lot of our listeners are plugging in on Spotify so they get the video of us now, but for everybody at home, I just want everybody to know that Rob is currently dressed in a black tank top and he has his hair spiked up in the air like he's the little kid from Jerry Maguire. Pacers 2. 0 baby.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why? Why are you pointing out my visual reference points Justin, when we've just been admiring your stash Pre show over here. It's really coming in nicely. I would say it's resplendent. How would you describe it?

[Justin Ferrier]

It's summer. Summer stash season buddy. You guys need to get on board. I the other day was been on board.

[Rob Mahoney]

For the record, he's been OG yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

No he's not doing it for a bit. That's just a way of life. Yesterday on Friday I drove to the hardware store to pick up fertilizer while listening to Bob Seeger with the windows down and so I was just like let's just lean all the way into the middle aged just lifestyle and just go full bore and so here I am.

[Rob Mahoney]

You were right to do it. I never. I really never would have anticipated this turn for you but now that you've adopted it, it just fits like A glove, you know, you're where you were always meant to be.

[Justin Ferrier]

It really is the only thing I have going on in my life right now, so I'm here for it. Well, more things are going on for the Minnesota Jimberwolves because they got back on board in a big old way. We'll talk about the Eastern Conference finals a little later, get a little bit bigger picture, but we have to start. We are contractually obligated because it was the game that happened tonight with the lamb basting that just occurred in game three of the Western Conference finals. Wolves 143, Thunder 101. Dear Lord, Rob, do you want to start with the Terrence Shannon legacy game? That seems to be the most pertinent thing from this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Where else would you even begin with a game like this? I did. I did genuinely enjoy the Taran Shannon minutes. But I think it was a reminder to me this game that first and foremost, the best adjustment you can make in a lot of these playoff series is play with a fuck ton more force than the last. You played a lot better. And like, look, there's a lot of things within that, you know, picking up higher on defense, more team rebounding, driving to force the rotation. Even if you're not going to be able to score out of like all those things are important. And we can go like super granular if we want to, but it's just hard to ignore the fact that Minnesota played a lot harder and a lot better because they brought that force in so many elements of their game.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, just the turnovers in the first quarter alone.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You kind of just knew that we were in for a different kind of game where they're ripping guys at half court for dunks.

[Rob Mahoney]

Rudy Gobert was ripping Shea at half court for dunks.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And you know, and it's important because their offense has been kind of stuck in the mud the two previous games. And so to get out for runouts and easy baskets set the tone, holding the Thunder to 14 points in the first quarter. Like, they pretty much damn near ended this game by doing that. And you know, defense can sometimes generate offense. And I think that was the case tonight. And of course, you know, they actually made their threes, which is always sort of the weathervane for this team.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I have OK OKC with five turnovers in the first 10 minutes of this game. The crowd was on top of SGA the entire time chanting foul merchant at him. Just. Do we blame Doris Burke for that one? Did she just enter that into the. The harassment From. From the road arena. I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, look, the. The Shay part of it is what it is like. He looked pretty flummoxed for a lot of this game. I thought Minnesota did a good job of picking up higher, amping up the pressure again without fouling. The game was also just called differently in a way that suited Minnesota's physicality, did not suit Alex Caruso by comparison, who did not get the whistle he had been getting throughout these playoffs. And as a result, his effect was just completely neutered in this game. But ultimately, I. I think you guys are both right to point out the turnovers. Like OKC turned the ball over eight times in game two. They hit that mark in about 15 minutes of this game. And. And that, I mean, it just really gave you a sense of the control that the Wolves defense was able to rest out of this entire affair, through that defensive effort, through that pressure that they were able to bring. And then, yeah, you're getting all those easy baskets that you talked about was you're getting ant so much easier offense early on in this game. And so then he's hitting and hitting and hitting and starting to feel overwhelming when he is outscore. It's not just. It's not just holding the thunder offense to 14 points in the first quarter. It's Ant outscoring the Thunder 1714 in the first quarter. That's kind of game, game, set, match right there.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And I like the idea of heavy ball pressure on this team because obviously Shea is one of the best handles in the NBA, but these other guys, man, they're lunch meat. If you. If you apply a certain kind of pressure, like force the ball out of Shay's hand and make these guys put it on the deck and show that they could, like, actually create against some lengthy, athletic, physical, you know, wing defenders. And so I thought. I thought that was a nice adjustment as well. Like, obviously Shay, like, I think he's going to destroy anybody that's like trying to pressure him up like that. But J Dub, like Lou Dor, forget about it. These Caruso, these guys aren't the best ball handlers in the league. So I thought that was a nice adjustment as well.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, we got to talk about ant. 30 points in 30 minutes. Pretty good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not bad.

[Justin Ferrier]

Two things that jumped out to me. I'm curious what you think, Rob, first of and foremost, seemed like they were getting him more off ball and they were almost like running actions for him. Like he was Steph at a certain point for catch and shoot opportunities. I was like, all right, he could do that considering like the success he had this season. One of the best pull three point shooters we have in the game right now and just three point shooters overall on top of that, just seemed like he was making decisions quicker. Like there were times where Casen Wallace was getting screened by Rudy. There's one play in particular where Rudy re screened. And by the time that Casen recovered, Ant was already in his motion, going to the left in order to pull up. Just seemed like things were just flowing better. Was it, do you think like aggressiveness for him or do you think it was something more tactical that Chris Finch did?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's all the above. The off ball stuff I think started stewing a little bit in game two. They started kind of experimenting with it, trying to get him involved off ball a little bit more. And then you really saw it be a point of emphasis in this game. Rightly so. The Thunder have such an overloading defense, right. Like they are going to lean wherever the ball is. And so if you're going to just do Ant high pick and roll after high pick and roll, he's going to have four defenders in his way every time he tries to drive. But if you start with Julius Randle or you start with Mike Conley and then all of a sudden you're swinging to Ant to attack the defense while it's overextended, you're just getting so much more of an advantage off of his initial thrust. And I thought, I thought you saw the benefits of that with his scoring, but also with the kickouts for threes where the Thunders were. Thunder were just scrambling in a totally different way to try to make it out to every shooter possible. And I think mostly failing in that regard. I also thought, I did think his decision making was crisper, as you mentioned, Justin. But also there were some plays where the escape artistry from Ant was just unbelievable. Like it looked like he was doubled, it looked like he was P against the sideline. And then all of a sudden he's turning the corner and he's all the way to the basket. Like those are the kinds of explosive athletic plays that you need to puncture the Thunder defense, period. And Ant played like a superstar, a God tier athlete, like everything that he needed to be for the Wolves to be successful in this series.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, it helps to not be predictable, right? Like this is freak. This is the best defense in the NBA. You want to switch up the way that you're trying to set up your best player instead of just having them bring the ball up the. And set the most obvious screen. Like, you know, make the defense have to think. Um. And I thought, obviously, getting Ant off of the rock, like, you have Mike Conley for a reason. And Julius Randle throughout the playoffs has shown that he can be the sort of engine that gets the offense kind of moving. And so, yeah, that was a great adjustment by Finch, and Ant responded accordingly. Like, the jumper was working, the drive game was working. Like Rob said, like, driving to pass. I thought that was a big, big key. Julius Randle did a lot of that as well. But, yeah, Ant look like the man tonight.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, it motivates you to drive to pass. 2. When these other guys are hitting their shots, it's a tougher proposition when you're kicking out and they're shooting 28% from 3 or whatever, but you're getting almost 50% shooting from 3 overall for the team, for the Wolves. And I think even more importantly, on, like, a more singular level, when Nas and Nikhil Alexander Walker are good, the Wolves are just a completely different team. And they were hitting shots. They were also making really good floor plays. Just like, keeping the offense moving. Having that one pass away, 3. Be a reliable weapon against the Thunder opens up a lot. Like, there's just no question about it.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah. And I do think a big part of getting Ant off the ball and all that kind of stuff trickling down from there is obviously Rando being a factor. He didn't even close game two the other night. He basically had to wave his family away so they wouldn't watch him just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just like.

[Justin Ferrier]

Like sitting on the bench, which was tough. He was just rotten there. He scored early. And then I also thought from there, he didn't press too hard. He seemed like he was picking his mismatches. And it was to be seen throughout this postseason. Seems like he's at his best when he's picking his spots, just like whenever he's able to play volleyball. And Kayson Wallace, unfortunately, was kind of the recipient of this early and often and just spray from there. It just seems like everything clicks into place for this team. Was. And so I have to wonder, I think the big question coming out of this, because basically three or maybe even two quarters of this didn't matter. Like, how much of this is repeatable going into a game four.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, that's the thing about a long series. You start to get a certain understanding about where the actual help is coming from. He looked confused in many moments throughout the first two games. And then tonight, it felt like he had a Better grasp and a handle on, you know, what OKC would, how they, how the defense would sort of respond depending on what type of move he did. And that's why I think he was better able to get the ball out on his drives and actually have the ball hit the hands of the intended target and not just be a pick six the other way. Right. And so that's the thing about a long series, man. Like you get to know the tendencies a lot better and then you know the stuff that gets everybody going. We'll see how OKC adjusts going forward.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's kind of what's fun about this too is we, we don't really know how OKC is going to adjust. Not just because, you know, Mark Dagnal can throw a bunch of stuff out there. The Thunder are a really versatile defense. They just literally have never been in this position before. The Thunder are not used to being on the business end of this kind of dominance. Their biggest loss in these playoffs was a one single double digit loss by 12. Their biggest loss in last postseason, one single double digit loss by 12 dot this does not happen to them. And I say that for two reasons. One, a win this big against a team this good is an achievement in and of itself. For the Wolves, this is a phenomenal performance by Minnesota. And two, we just literally don't know tactically, psychologically, otherwise, like how the Thunder bounced back from a game like this because they've never had to do it before.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I think we learned in the second round that after the Thunder had the same sort of lopsided result against the Nuggets. Like the carry over effect is pretty minimal because that was the dogfight throughout the rest of that series. It didn't seem like that was sustainable or repeatable going forward in the series. And so I don't know, like on one hand I almost wonder getting just your ass whipped so definitively was it might actually work in the Thunder's favor because now they want to go out and prove something different. A lot of this I do think came down to effort. Just seemed like the Wolves had been flat for two straight games and now it just flip flop. I don't know if that's home court advantage. I don't know if that like it was just rubber me in the road with them being down too. But like a lot of it was just forced and, and just want to.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Essentially I think there's something to like human nature. It's just like, yeah, we beat these guys two games, we got two games in hand. Yeah, it'd be nice to go up 3.0and effectively end the series, but, like, they're in a great position even still because they had the two games in hand. So that's what I. That's what I mostly chalk up the blowout. Yeah, nature, too. I think Minnesota was going to win this game no matter what, but, like, this thing was they were up by 30 at halftime. Right. I think that speaks to OKC just being like, all right, man, like, we handled our business. They got their one game. We'll get them in game four.

[Rob Mahoney]

Once the Wolves built like a 25 point lead or so, you could just feel the Thunder being on their heels the whole time. And especially defensively, they just don't function that way. That's just. They're just not going to win. Win margins, win quarters, win runs, so long as that's the case. So it did feel like they kind of had the satisfaction of a 20 lead at a certain point.

[Justin Ferrier]

I have had to stop myself throughout this postseason and remind myself that, like, this is still part of the ascent for the Thunder. Like, their core will only get better from here and they do have a lot of options in order to supplement them with the right guys. But, like, this is probably the worst they're going to be if these three are healthy going forward and they're playing like it right now. This seemed like a very young team thing to do where it's like, otherwise, maybe an older, more veteran team, the warriors in past years would know that you have to step on the throat because if you let a team back in it, then it's a completely different series. Now it's just like, I don't know. I'm asking myself, like, how far are we going to go from here? Like, I don't know. Why do you think this is more of like a OKC shuts the door from here? Or are we talking six, seven at this point? No.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I can see the Wolves winning the next game and making this a super long series. Like, it's funny because it's every single playoffs, every series, we do the same thing. Like, we'll just have wild swings of emotion about how we feel about a team. Just given the, like, what just recently happened after game two, everybody on my Internet was like, it's over. Let's fold up the playoffs. OKC's the champion. Hand them the trophy right now. Like, that's literally what the discussion was. So, like, I don't think, like, they're now going to blow the series, but, you know, I didn't think that, like, everything was completely settled, done and dusted after Game 2, either. I think it's something closer to the middle. Right. Like, I feel like they're. They're in good position to ultimately win this series, but it's going to be a battle.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's also felt like the kind of series where home court advantage actually has mattered. Like, the energy that the Wolves have played with is amplifying the energy they're getting from their home crowd. It's not a coincidence that guys like Nas and Nikhil Alexander Walker are playing better at home. That tends to happen with guys of their caliber. So it makes sense that the Wolves would win a game like this. Honestly, Game four is the tougher one in a lot of ways. Like, to come down from the emotional high and the momentum of this kind of walloping and do it all over again, start from scratch, have to come out with the same kind of energy for Game four, the same kind of jump out of the outset. It is. It is tough. I also fully expect Game four to be more of a dog fight, certainly, than this one was. That's not a. Not a tough bar to clear, but I think we're going to get a more competitive game in what, like, shapes up to be a pretty competitive series, certainly more so than the first two games will lead you to believe.

[Justin Ferrier]

Do you think that the Thunder had just heard all of my gardening talk and they were just, like, obsessed with the top of the arena terrarium or whatever they have at Target Center? They're just, like, marveling at the. I don't know, the. The marigolds. Yeah, there you go. Marigolds.

[Rob Mahoney]

The marigolds, yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

Like the flowers.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, yeah. I have gotten a lot of. I've gotten a lot of message personally about the audacity, Justin, of you planting two ears of corn.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's right. Yeah. You sent us that email from. Was it Hutch?

[Rob Mahoney]

No. We got some legit gardening tips. But then I'm getting a whole separate genre of just, like, what is Justin doing only planting two ears of corn.

[Justin Ferrier]

Because it's such a bold new strategy or.

[Rob Mahoney]

It really is. You know, you're one of the greatest and most creative gardening minds of your generation. You know, like, you're really just throwing stuff out there. You're trying it in ways that no one's ever done it before. Singular ears of corn grown in the backyard.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You wanting to bring up flowers from the Minnesota arena on this podcast, it's just you are leaning into this Portland man thing. It's crazy.

[Justin Ferrier]

Well, they do have what? Is it on the roof? It's like, is it a living garden?

[Rob Mahoney]

Is it a living garden? Is that what you're talking about on.

[Justin Ferrier]

The top of Target Center? You've referenced. We've talked about this before.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think we've talked about this before. Yeah, I think you're talking about your restaurant.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You used to have one of those two Barclays used to have, like, a grass patch on the top of the arena. I don't know if they still got that anymore, but when they first opened it, they definitely did.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're sure that the Target center does.

[Justin Ferrier]

We have talked about this explicitly, and I'm Googling it as we're talking. Yeah, there's definitely. If you look at the overhead, there's some sort of.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Look at the over.

[Justin Ferrier]

Check the drone footage, paying for those drone shots. You know, they're getting their money's worth here. Do you want to do 20 on. On Terrence Channing, because you called this going into the postseason, I was like, whose legacy is on the line here? And you said, taryn Shannon.

[Rob Mahoney]

I told you it was. And he. And he proved it. He stepped up in his moment. Here's the thing. The Taryn Shannon arrival in the series was awesome. Like, him coming in five straight points. I think he had scored six in the entire postseason to date and had nine in that first stint alone in four minutes. Just an amazing turnout from him and gave them, like, really good energy, I thought really good defensive energy as well. Just was playing exactly the way you want your young role players to enter a series and play. There's also the part of this that, as we've been talking about, and I'm sure we will talk about with the Eastern Conference Finals, they didn't trade someone out of the rotation to bring in Terence Shannon. It was just we did play eight, and now we're going to play nine.

[Justin Ferrier]

And he's their Ben Shepard.

[Rob Mahoney]

He is their Ben Shepard step stepping into this particular role, sopping in, sopping up these minutes in a way that has been, like, actually helpful to the team and you would hope, then trades off, you know, a little less burn, a little less tired for some of these other guys, these other more veteran guys in the rotation. So if they can get that from him, I mean, look, he's not going to score that well every stint he plays in this series. This may be an exception more than it is the rule, but in a game like this, it's hugely welcome.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah. As soon as AJ Mitchell got into the game, I was like, let's fucking go for okc. Unfortunately, I think that was as much of a white flag as anything or a sign that Mark Dagnault was searching for something, anything at that point.

[Unnamed Speaker]

All you need to know about this game is that Terence Shannon, after his initial stint, he got a standing ovation.

[Rob Mahoney]

In the second quarter, as he damn well should.

[Justin Ferrier]

Right? 15 points. Will he get 15 points the rest of the postseason?

[Rob Mahoney]

No, probably not.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Hard to see it.

[Rob Mahoney]

But also, also as far as you know, telling factors in this game go the fact that the Thunder started Isaiah Joe for the third quarter, a guy who just like has not hit shots in these playoffs for the most part did not hit shots in this game. But just the theoretical possibility of we got to put points on the board like we gotta, we gotta shave this like 40 something point deficit down somehow. And it didn't do it. Let me spoiler alert. Isaiah Joe did not work.

[Justin Ferrier]

Vandals Turning your bets into bigger wins with a parlay profit boost. That's right. Build a same game parlay or parlay and you can boost your winnings by 30% with a profit boost. You pick the team's player stats, all of it. FanDuel just adds a little fuel to the fire. All right, so we're looking at Eastern Conference finals game three. We're going back to the field house in Indiana. The line is only two points. God, I really want to pick the Pacers here. They just seem like the better team. But I can't imagine that they're going to go up 30 against a Knicks team that has every reason to play like their life is on the line. So just give me the Knicks plus two. Let's just not talk about it anymore. I don't love it, but I think I'm going to lean in that direction. Knicks +2. So lock that in. And whether you're betting three pointers, home runs, goals or birdies, FanDuel's got markets across every sport and every game. And the best part, when you win, you'll get paid instantly. So go check it out. Fanduels where your parlay gets paid. Paid even bigger. Head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get started. FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook must be 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens restriction supply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See [e-mail] Gambling problem. Call 1-800- Gambler or visit RG D. Help. All right, now let's flip to the actual corn boys here, because Indiana is doing something special here in the Eastern Conference finals. I think after game one, we recorded a pot, I believe, after that, Game one. And the feeling was basically like, wow, Indiana really showed up in the final minutes of regulation, then into overtime in this game was. I think that my feeling was like, wow, they really just showed up the entire game. And they might just be the better team at this point.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, watching game two, like, the team that was more crisp, the team that just played with like a laser precision, was Indiana. The Knicks defense was so freaking sloppy, particularly in that fourth quarter where they just. No communication on screens, on the back line, like just giving up layups and wide open, they looked lost. They look as if they'd never heard of the Pacers before, never seen this team play, has no idea what their game plan is. And Indiana is the opposite of that, man. They are executing at an insanely high level. And you know, we talk about, Man, I forget who I was talking to about this, but the word that he used to describe the Pacers play is freedom. They play with a sense of freedom, man. Like, when T.J. mcConnell comes in the game, he has an ultimate green light as if he's a freaking star. And like, that sort of energy infuses everything that they do, man. And it's just a beautiful brand of basketball to watch because it is very. Like, everybody's involved, everybody's doing their part. Yes, Halliburton has to be great in moments, but then, you know, Pascal Siakam could just show up and be Charles Barkley for a night. Like, it's freaking crazy, honestly. Like, I just thought they just looked like the more better prepared team and just a team that's just like the synergy is on another level.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I don't think the execution in terms of that precision you're talking about wise was even comparable for the Knicks and the Pacers. I think the Knicks had great moments, great performances. Like, they scored well overall, which is why ultimately it was a competitive game. But. But it never really felt crisp in that way. You. You didn't see the same depth of defensive breakdown that the Pacers were able to create. They're really tough team to guard. Indiana is like, in the Knicks defense. Like, it's. It's a lot of action. It's a lot you have to talk through. It's a lot you have to work through. The Knicks did not seem super up for it, and I think a lot of that started with the fact that once the Pacers started really pointing and picking on Jalen Brunson and Cat, two glaring weaknesses that are there every game. Part of the reason why the Knicks starting lineup has not really worked in these playoffs, on balance, like, it just has not performed very well on balance, in part because of those two guys. Defensively, you could just see the whole thing unravel. Once they were trying to like overprotect Brunson to prevent, like, to protect him, prevent him from having to switch or, you know, Cat would get stuck on the island against Tyrese Halliburton and just like give up easy drives, give up shots, give up kickouts, I don't think they ever really came up with a good answer for those things. And that's just Indiana's base offense. Like, it doesn't even have to be Tyrese Halliburton. Sometimes it's just like their role players going through actions, creating problems for Knicks across the board.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, the approach late in the game I think was pretty telling yet again, where it's just still a lot of Brunson pounding the air out of the ball, getting what he can. Basically playing hero ball for the Knicks because that is their option, I guess. He's the clutch player of the year and if you're going to be that guy and Tibbs is going to be your coach, he's going to go to him every single time. On the other end, though, it was like such a orchestrated, like, well thought out approach to each possession to where on one play it was like Brunson guarding Halliburton. So we're going to take him, we're going to drive against him, we're going to get Mitch to try to collapse and he does from the corner. Miles Turner wide open. 3. It's just like the. Just the precision as you guys are talking about was so, just like so stark the difference there. And I also thought it was like some of the tactical things were also interesting because first you had Tibbs playing Mitchell Robinson into the ground early on, almost like unable to like combat his impulse control of like, if a guy is just winning each individual possession, he just can't take him out and basically ran him into the ground. And then late in the game you saw Carlisle be like almost prudent about when he would go hack a Mitch. Like, I think he only did it once, if memory serves. And that one time was when Mitchell Robinson was clearly gassed late in the game and he did so specifically to put him on the line. He did I think he missed at least one of them. And then immediately they had to pull him for Towns because the free throws were going to be an issue. And so it's just like he's pushing the buttons. And it's just like. A lot of it could just be makeup of teams. I want to talk about that. But a lot of it could also just be the guys pulling the strings now.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it is part of it. I think the cat and Mitchell Robinson, part of that dance is particularly fascinating. Carl Anthony Towns is a hugely important part of the Knicks, and he was off the floor for 8ish minutes of the fourth quarter, just like. And it felt clear that Tom Thibodeau stylistically liked the way the team was playing with Mitchell Robinson out there better, I would imagine, in part because the defense, obviously, the rebounding is a part of it, too. But offensively, other than the rebounds, Mitchell Robinson gives you extremely little. Like, you've seen him on his attempts to catch on the role and do anything with the ball.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Tried to do a poster.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, my God.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That was. That was pathetic. Pathetic. Oh, my God.

[Rob Mahoney]

Threw that thing off the glass like a shot put, like, from the free throw line. It was so, like, such a terrible sequence for the Knicks. And that gives you a sense of, like, for some of these guys, their roles are extremely limited in terms of what they give you. Offensively, I thought Mikhail Bridges did a good job, like, selectively targeting guys like Tyrese Halliburton in this game to, like, put himself on the board in a meaningful way. But other than that, it's like, sometimes OG Is just kind of in the corner, sometimes Kat is just kind of pick and roll pop on the perimeter. And then, yeah, you get into Jason Brunson hero ball. Cause there's not a lot else that's moving.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. I mean, to me, the Knicks offense is going to be what it's going to be. They're not going to turn into the freaking warriors overnight. Like, it's just. Is what it is. But making Indiana more less comfortable on offense, I think they have an ability to be better than they've shown. I'm not saying they should be shutting the. The Pacers down, but they should. They just Game two was a disgrace. I'm sorry, man. Like, to be in the fourth quarter and you basically playing for your season and that effort. Indiana carved these dudes up like some turkeys, some jive turkeys.

[Justin Ferrier]

In front of Jerry Ferrara, no less. Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Jesus. And so, yeah, I thought that was pathetic. They're going to have to do much better in Indiana if they want to keep this series going.

[Justin Ferrier]

Everything just seems so hard for the Knicks, and I guess that is the Tibbs way, that is the Jalen Brunson way. But it's particularly like a disadvantage when everything is so goddamn easy for the Pacers to the point where it's like, I really want the nerds out there to start tracking what I want to call deflations, which is when something miraculous happens for the Knicks in this situation. And then the Pacers score on the other end within three seconds. Like, their ability to punch back so quickly, it has become such an advantage to the point where there was that huge, dramatic play where they get the turnover where Brunson saves it from out of bounds, and then I think Hart scores on the other end. I think literally with under three seconds, the Pacers scored the other way and the air just completely, just dissipated from msg. It's just like that happened over and over again to where, like, you can't even build momentum on them because they're just kind of like they're jabbing back so quickly.

[Rob Mahoney]

The one that got me was, I think it was like inside the last three minutes of the game, Tyrese Halliburton pulled down a contested defensive rebound. And again, this is like crunch time, right? It's a single digit game, incredibly competitive. A guard pulls down a rebound. I don't know how many guards even look up the floor in that moment to really look to press their luck in terms of a long transition outlet. But Pascal Siakam knows who Tyrese Haliburton is. He's pushing out. And then all of a sudden this, like, hard fought, as you're saying, jv, like a possession that the Knicks are like, trying to dig out the mud to even get it to work. And then it just is a seamless, easy, free, breezy two going the other way for Pascal Siakam. I think there's the things that the Pacers make look easy, like their kind of movement and the decisions that they trust their role players to make. Those things are not actually that easy. They're just practiced. And so they get into a rhythm and they know how to do it. But if the Knicks tried to do it, Campaign would be tripping over his own shoelaces. Like, not everyone can play that style. Indiana makes that stuff look easy. And then they supplement with plays that like that that are actually easy if you dare to look for them.

[Justin Ferrier]

Sideswipe at campaign. Come on. He didn't deserve that.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think he did. I think we all know he did.

[Justin Ferrier]

Do we need to give you like two minutes or three minutes here just to talk about Pascal Siakam?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, fucking rules. Like, this was a, this was a great Siakam game in a very pointed kind of attack. Right. Siakam is a guy who can, because of his versatility, get in where he fits in in some of these games, like find his place in a game as it goes. I thought it was really telling that the Pacers were like going right to him out of the gate over and over and over every opportunity. And it looks like Siakam is ready to seize all those opportunities. Just the variety of ways he can score on you is dazzling. And it's something that's very easy to take for granted and very easy to take for granted when you compare him with someone like Kat, for example, an immensely talented and skilled Big, but doesn't have a lot of kind of do it all offensive breadth that he will showcase in like a six minute span in the way that Siakam can, because Towns will in the midst of that, turn the ball over or commit a dumb foul or do something that kind of offsets the value of what someone like Siakam gives to you, which is heady transition play, great turnaround game in the post. And his ability to, I thought like punish the wings and punish the smalls was a critical part of this game for the Pacers. His ability to score on the move to screen, to hit spot up shots, like he really does do everything. And when your best player is Tyrese Halliburton, someone whose best skill is not on ball shot creation, like on a whim ISO having guys like Siakam, having guys like Andrew Demhard, that's how you get to this position. Like it's just perfect complimentary play from your second best player. And then wherever you consider Nemhardt, like third or fourth or fifth best player.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I mean when that trade was made last year, I think one of the concerns that you might have had is like, oh, Siakam is 30, probably going to be aging into like the tail end of his prime. Like how much more is there to tap into his game? He's definitely added an extra level. Like the fact that he's a consistent three point shooter is just kind of miraculous. It's just like his career starting from defensive like wrench you throw into a game just to see if he'll stick to the guy now who's like swinging the Eastern Conference finals is. Is pretty remarkable. And so he deserves a lot of Love there for that. So what do you do if you're the Knicks now? Like, are you just hoping and praying that Tony Bradley plays 15 minutes in this game?

[Rob Mahoney]

Honestly, he wasn't that bad.

[Justin Ferrier]

He was better than Thomas Bryant.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

Which I guess is the bar we're setting here.

[Rob Mahoney]

It really is.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You just gotta hope that Pacers run into some bad shooting luck. And you know, you're able to steal a couple in Indy. Cause like, going down three one, you're cooked. You're done. You're not beating Indy three games in a row. And so, yeah, man, they're going into Indian Indianapolis with their. Their season on the line after having given away game one and just getting outclassed in game two.

[Rob Mahoney]

A lot of it, I think, has to be that defensive execution. Like the number of breakdowns, the number of miscommunications, unacceptable for this level of competition. Like, you're just not going to compete against a team that's as good as the Pacers. If that's the way you're com. That's the way you're communicating, and that's how badly every defensive exchange seems to be going.

[Justin Ferrier]

Do you want to see more double big at this point? I think the. The pluses and minuses are like, on the one hand, it seems to be a strength for the Knicks. Seems like controlling the boards has been probably one of their only main advantages to. To tilt things in their direction.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

On the other end, does it leave you susceptible to another Siakam game if you're asking more of Towns guarding like someone like him?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, somewhat, I think. But I think Siakam was eating against guys like Josh Hart, guys like Deuce McBride. You know, it's like against the Smalls as much as anything. I was actually wondering down that closing stretch when CA is on the bench and Mitchell Robinson is the only big out there. I get wanting to ride Mitch. He had a positive impact on the game. Has had a positive impact on the series.

[Unnamed Speaker]

A little bit too long.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it was pro. I do think it was probably a little too long. I also wonder, like, are. Are you married to the idea that Josh Hart has to be on the floor in those moments? Like, why not play Kat and Mitch together during that stretch? Because Josh Hart, the Pacers were not really respecting him. They haven't respected his three, really, all series. They've been able to kind of walk the line because they've put guys like Nemhard on him who are able to close really well and force him to put the ball on the floor. But I think there's a lot of room to go Double big and I frankly, I think we're probably past the point where the Knicks should start that way or change up their starting lineup in some meaningful way. That can be a lost cause with Tibbs sometimes, but they need to at least play it more.

[Justin Ferrier]

I agree, if only because it also perhaps puts Hart back into a position where he's more of like a six man type, which might ultimately be his best role, not only in this series, but maybe just overall for this team. It's just like there's too much time where it's like the three of him, OG Bridges and there's just not enough offensive pop. Yeah, and if you're going with somebody else there, you're sacrificing something else. Obviously Mitchell Robinson gives you help defensively on the boards, but he isn't going to be much of a factor offensively. Deuce a little bit more of a target. Although he's held up pretty well on both ends in the series. And so yeah, I think double big would be my approach there. But then you're also wondering how do you balancing the minutes like at that point, are you going six man rotation, like. No, I mean, do we still want Deuce in there or.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, Deuce is playing I think pretty well overall. I'm not, I'm not mad at the Deuce minutes so much as I just think in those situations if you're making these like big, big to big and offense, defense, trade offs, I still like what I'm getting from Cat offensively more than I get from Josh Hart's all around game. In a game like that where he's not having a profound impact on the pace of play, he's not feeling disruptive to the point that he's taking over the game. He's just a good role player out there. And in that situation I don't think that's enough. I think you might need more firepower than that.

[Justin Ferrier]

To the point about Hart and just the starting lineup overall in the playoffs, the knicks starters are minus 50 in total, plus minus in this series, minus 29. So the advantage was supposed to be that the Knicks have that lock solid top five. Unfortunately not even that has been an advantage.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hasn't really worked out that way. I think, you know, the Pacers 5 play really well together. Their depth has also had a bigger impact on this series than whatever you're getting from the Knicks bench. Mitchell Robinson aside, in some of these stretches, I think the Ben Shepard thing is mystifying and awesome to see. Like, Ben Shepard has not been very good this season.

[Justin Ferrier]

He's a closer now.

[Rob Mahoney]

He got played. He got played out of the rotation, like, for good reason. He just, like, was not delivering on anything he was supposed to be doing, including defensively. And then Rick Carlisle's like, yeah, so you're going to guard Jalen Brunson now during some critical stretches of these games. You're going to close for us and play crucial fourth quarter minutes. You're going to play 20 minutes over these last two games and be a plus 22. What the fuck? Like, I, and I see this as someone who likes Ben Shepard on balance and has liked him previously. He has not been this player over the last couple months. And just at the perfect time, the Pacers are calling up Ben Shepard to the front of the line, giving him huge, important minutes, and he's delivering beyond any reasonable expectation.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Rick Carlisle deserves his flowers. He's killing it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Pushing all the right buttons.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I'm, I'm a little worried, though, that he's going a little bit too deep in his bag, because I didn't. I didn't even know that Tony Bradley was on this roster. I thought they had to play Thomas Bryant because he was literally the only center on this team left because of the James Wiseman injury. Obviously, they went out and got him during the season from the Heat, but, man, Ben Shepard, like, would we be like, totally shocked if James Johnson, like, dusts off whatever skills he's, like, had dormant for the past five years and all of a sudden just, like, is throwing haymakers out there?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I think him. Him getting into this series is like, if the Pacers closed it out at msg, James Johnson is getting them to the bus. You know, like, he's. He's putting his body on the line.

[Unnamed Speaker]

To protect the team.

[Rob Mahoney]

I want to say this. In Tony Bradley's defense, the sequence in my notes, he's a large man. He is big, and, like, look, he. He's not the best, like, space defender, but he can block some shots. He can be somewhat of a. An impact player on the glass. Like, he has a big body to throw out there opposite Mitchell Robinson. The sequence in my notes was, you simply cannot play Thomas Bryan anymore in this series. And then they took Thomas Bryan off the floor and went with Siakam and Obi Toppin as the dual bigs, as they prefer to do. But it was with Mitchell Robinson out there, and Mitchell Robinson immediately grabbed, like, four straight offensive rebounds. It was just like the second they took a big body off the floor. He was feasting. And so yeah, then in comes Tony Bradley, a guy who can be picked on certainly more than he was in this game. Offensively, you just like should not guard him whatsoever. Like does not have a threatening ounce of offensive game to him other than maybe the occasional like just straight drop off dunk. But he made his minutes work and like they need to plug that hole in the dam so that the rotation can be watertight. And in this game it was watertight.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not saying it's going to continue to happen. I'm saying if you can steal eight Tony Bradley minutes in a win, we salute you.

[Justin Ferrier]

This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. Not all EVs are built the same. And the Ioniq 9? It's in a league of its own. It's Hyundai's first all electric EV with three rows. Yep, you heard that right. Actual space in an EV. Finally, and with over 300 miles of range and ultra fast charging capability inside, smart safety tech built in. Expect more room and more ways to make the most of it. Check out the Ionic 9@hyundai USA.com call 562-314-4603 for complete details.

[Rob Mahoney]

You want control of your financial future and Schwab knows that. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, we give you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it most. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim are powerful award winning trading platforms. Plus you'll get low costs, transparent pricing and 247 live help. Because at Schwab, we understand it's your financial journey and we believe you should have choices in how you invest. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[Unnamed Speaker]

This episode is brought to you by indeed. A successful season starts with picking the right players for your team. If I were picking a team, I pick some of the greatest players of all time. Maybe I get Kareem at the the 5. Maybe I get Tim Duncan at the 4, LeBron at the 3, Jordan at the 2 and Kobe at the 1. Or maybe I'll get Steph at the 1. Step at the 1 will be pretty cool too. If you want to hire the best players for your business and quickly, you need indeed. Their sponsor jobs help you stand out and reach relevant candidates faster. Plus, with Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts and you pay for the results. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com Ringer MBA that's Indeed.com RingerMBA right now. And support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.comringermba Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's true. Are you upset that you haven't seen Jerus Walker yet?

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, well, he has an X factor, so you got to keep him for just the right moment.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's right. When Ben Shepard can't get it done, his 10 minutes just all in the fourth quarter, you gotta die.

[Rob Mahoney]

I like to think Ben Shepard is the honorary Jairus Walker. Like, he's taken the mantle of the random Pacers X factor.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Played a lot in last year's playoffs too.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's very important.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He just stunk up the regular season, but like, he was like one of their best shooters, most reliable shooters in last year's playoffs.

[Rob Mahoney]

And if I'm not mistaken, wise, I think one of our selections for the expansion draft facts, you know, so we're thriving, you know, our expansion team here in the playoffs.

[Justin Ferrier]

How many rounds after we took AJ Mitchell, who was like our second pick.

[Rob Mahoney]

Off the board in our flavor violation of the fact that you can't draft multiple Thunder players. But you know, who's counting? That's fine.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's fine. It's all for fun, guys. Ben Shepard also indulging in summer stash season. So he's my brother. I mean, eventually we love to see it. Well, I bring up the starters minutes because I think one of the big questions here is, like, how much to believe in this. Pacers just come up. There's been a lot of instances on the broadcast where it's like, they've been so good over the second half. And I'm like, first of all, I don't think you watched a single fucking game of the Pacers in the second half as someone fed you the stat that they were pretty good in the second half. It's like.

[Rob Mahoney]

And they were good.

[Justin Ferrier]

They were good. Although I think the counter would be so they were 34 and 14 since January 1st 6th in that rating. Pretty good, but not like, so good that it was like, overwhelming. Also, like, there was that Jazz team a couple years ago where they were like 26 and 9. Like the net ratings were off the charts. And they, I believe they like, ended up losing in the first round. And so there's like, there was evidence, but also there was evidence to the counter to suggest that like maybe another Eastern Conference finals run would have been a little over their heads. I'm starting to rethink all of this now. I'm starting to wonder like how much was this the Pacers hiding in plain sight versus something a little bit more broader, a little bit more structural that's allowed them to get this far yet again.

[Rob Mahoney]

But what do you mean the broader structural elements?

[Justin Ferrier]

Well, I think on the one hand it could just be what I've said in the past, that they managed to build a well rounded team and just maximize their potential in the moment in order to just get as far as possible and things just broke their way where that was enough to get over the top. I think for a long time we were saying this is a two team conference, right? All of a sudden Garland isn't playing for the Cavs and it's like oh, the margins are a little slimmer. And then like the Knicks, it just didn't seem like they were ever able to draw the balance between offense, defense that they needed. The Celtics lose Jason Tatum. And so like there's enough to suggest that like oh, maybe the gap between great and just very good is slimmer that we think. And then a team like the Pacers just can take advantage just because things happen and they're there to take advantage. Or we could say like, oh, this is the start of a next thing like this, they're on the come up, they're going to be on the level of the Thunder in the east going forward. Rob, where do you fall in terms of like maybe that not, not a binary, but at the very least like, you know, like one or the other.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean I think the evidence has been there. Not just like the big picture record plus net rating type of stuff, but just in the Pacers performance over the last few months. This is a very, very good team. Maybe not one that we thought would perform at you know, a level comparable to say the best of the Cavs in the regular season. Like that high water mark may not have quite been exactly the same, but they presented as a really, really good team. That was going to be a tough out for I think a lot of opponents, the Celtics included, like the Pacers would have been a tough, a tough out for a lot of different reasons, most of which are stylistic but also the talent, also the way that they can kind of press very specific buttons in terms of how they stress out your defense. All that stu to be there. But I think you're right that some things were offsetting. Whether you want to think about it in terms of the Cavs injuries. Then again, the Pacers just kind of wax those guys over the back part.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Of the series breaks off for the Cabs. Man, I don't want to hear about injuries. The Cavs got worked.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I don't think a fully healthy Cavs team wins that series.

[Rob Mahoney]

I agree with you. I think the reason the Cavs lost is because the Pacers straight up beat them. Like, they beat those guys and embarrass them in some contexts. And part of the reason that the margins were what they were were because of some of the injuries and because of some of the complications. But I do think Indiana wins that series if they played it back over again healthy. I think that the problems they presented would have been there regardless. And, yeah, maybe you get a better Darius Garland series. Maybe they're a little less reliant on Donovan Mitchell. Ultimately, the Pacers are really good, and I think there's a lot to take away from that success. But as far as models go, being a very good team, believing in that and trying to give yourself a chance, that's basically what every NBA team should be doing, as far as I'm concerned.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, we don't look at their guys as, like, the top end of the talent distribution in the league, but, you know, they have a bunch of guys who can play who, you know, can pass, dribble, and shoot and actually guard somebody. Like, they play a ton of dudes who do that. And I think there's something to be said for having an identity, actually having a distinct style that is separate from how pretty much every other team in the NBA, they're not some crazy heavy, oh, let's just do high pick and roll you to death all day long. Like, they have a unique way of playing, and I think that balances the perception anyway, that they're not at the top end talent wise. And so to me, like, I don't know how you argue with the results. Like, the Cavs were the East's best team. They looked incredible all year. And the Pacers made those dudes look ordinary. You know, they made Evan Mobley look ordinary. Donovan Mitchell had his moments or whatever, but Darius Garland was ordinary. Like, the pace did that to those guys. Yeah, he definitely was hurt. The toe thing is definitely like. Like one of those injuries that really hobbles a guy. But I think the Cavs should have shown more than what they did, man. And I don't know. I look at these guys as a contender. I. I don't know. Like, I'm. I'm tired of doubting these guys at a certain point.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, you're kind of circling the other part of this that I wanted to talk about as well, because I think we're looking bigger picture, more about the way teams are built. And I do wonder, as talent starts to rise on some of the more ancillary spots in the roster, if talent is better and more widely distributed, is it actually better to be rock solid and very good at every position as opposed to making sacrifices at certain positions? Like for instance with the Knicks, like you wouldn't say, like the fact that they can't go offense, defense with their starting five is that is having just a supercharged superstar laden offense actually not as potent as what the Pacers have constructed, which is just well roundedness across the board. There's kind of this theory kind of floating around there for. With the NBA nerds of like the weak link era. Right. So we basically. Which is like a good branding of kind of the evolution we've seen of some of the like other spots on the court next to the superstars. I think the warriors were maybe the inflection point where it's like, oh, you actually need to have offensive players at all five positions. That gave way to more of the bum hunting sort of era where Luca and other like ball handlers were able to pick on the weak link defensively. Now it might be just more widely distributed where it's like you got to play both ways and you actually can't sacrifice a single spot. And so did the Pacers actually stumble upon that quicker than other teams? The Thunder would be probably another team kind of mirroring this idea where it's like, yeah, it's Shea and he's, he's better than Halliburton, whoever you want to identify on the Pacers. But the fact that they ha. They go five deep, seven deep is actually more an advantage now than it has been in the past. Is there anything to that, you think?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Absolutely. And the team that immediately comes to mind, an extreme version of this is the, the first year of the Miami Heatles where it's Carlos Arroyo, Mike Bibby, Eric Dampier, Dexter Pittman, like, I mean we're talking about the dregs of the NBA at that point. They won 58 games and went to the finals. That shit cannot happen anymore. That's not. Your roster has to be more well balanced than that. And yeah, you could have a superstar, that's nice. But you better have guys at other positions who can contribute because your superstar is just not going to be enough to carry you to dominance, man. And the Pacers just straight up, like you said. Justin having no weak links, a bunch of guys again, pass, dribble and shoot and guarding people. Even Halliburton, that was one of the biggest knocks on him, that he was a defensive civ. He stepped up his level of play on that end. I mean, like, you can't argue with, you know, actually having guys that can meaningfully contribute, man, like niece Smith, drained six threes in the fourth quarter of game one. Like, bro, the roster up and down has people that could kill you. Nemhard and OT had like an incredible drive just creating a shot by his freaking self, you know, and we would say he's like the fourth or fifth best player on that team, you know. And so, yeah, I think there is something to having a well balanced roster.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think there is for sure. I mean, you guys have laid it out really well. I also think as far as like the Halliburton part of that with his defense, you're right. Like, if there is going to be a weak link to attack, it would be Tyrese Halliburton's defense. But he has stepped up in exactly the way you described was there's also an element of this with guys like Halliburton or guys like Brunson. If you're going to have a weak link, you better be really fucking good at the other stuff. Like, you better make it worth our time as a team to cover for you. Because if you're a role player who can't guard or can't hit a shot, it's just not worth the trouble. Like, you're not worth the 12 minutes for us to completely reorient the way we rotate or reorient the way we run our offense. Like, you're not worth it. But if you're a Tyrese Halliburton or I want to give credit to. To Jalen Brunson in the Celtics series, where I thought he really stepped up defensively in that series and he was not like a pushover one on one, he was holding his spot. He was really competitive. Those guys. If you can have that kind of moment or that kind of series where teams think they can pick on you, but when they try, they have one more turnover than they might like you force some difficult misses, you make them live with the three point variance on like a step back three where otherwise they might get like a decent shot out of something else, that stuff can ward teams off of that stuff really quickly. Mismatch hunting is very reliant on early success to keep everyone on board with doing it because no one wants to see, even if it is your best player just going one on one every time down the floor. Like, it. It stops. It saps all the energy out of a team when you do that, and it's not successful.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah. I think it's telling that when we're talking about them, even in this conversation before, we're talking team identity, coaching execution, which is not typically what we would say. Even last year with the Boston Celtics, there was something just baked into the ideology of how they played. It was more just like big picture thinking. Like, we'll push the math with three pointers.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

Then we'll have two A guys in order to dominate.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's identity.

[Justin Ferrier]

No, to me, that's more structural. Whereas I. I feel like the identity shows up for the Pacers more on individual possessions. It's more like execution in the way that like Denver did two years ago, as opposed to the Celtics, which are just like the. It's more of like a play style. Whereas, like, I feel like maybe pace would be the Pacers thing, but like a lot of what they're doing is just executing on a high level. And I do think that might play into this whole idea of like having more depth of talent, where it's like if. If also if the math is going to push things so dramatically. I remember at one point last round, Jalen Williams remarked after they came back, I think it was like in game five, he was just in the walkoff interview, he's like, oh, a typical swing is 12 points. Like, it was just like a matter of fact. And if that's like just the average swing, the fact that you can execute at a high level actually might matter more than being able to punch your way back into a game. And so I don't know, does any of that. I'm kind of just rambling at this point. Does that make sense?

[Rob Mahoney]

It does make sense. I think the depth part of this is hard to parse because. Yeah, one of the great takeaways from these playoffs that a lot of people are talking about right now is how much depth is mattering in the contemporary NBA. The fact that you're seeing teams like the Pacers and Knicks in such contrast in terms of Indiana, like, I think they've. There have been nine different guys for the Pacers who have made a real positive impact at some point in these playoffs. Ten, if you want to include Tony Bradley. I leave that to your discretion. And that's keeping in mind two of Their guys that were supposed to be rotation bigs for them are out for the season. Isaiah Jackson, James Wiseman, like maybe James Wiseman never would have worked out James Wiseman.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You really just said James Wiseman.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not saying I believe in him. I'm saying they, they built their team with the expectation he was going to be backup big, he would play minutes. Isaiah Jackson we saw in last year's postseason could be a good energy based Jackson, I do too. But both those guys are out right now and yet you're still getting nine or ten guys making real actual impact on these games. That's a scouting success. That's the developmental success, that's a coaching success. It's hard as fuck to do all of those three things at the same time. Like, you may draft really well, but you know your coach doesn't put in the Ben Shepard when it matters. You may draft really well, but you don't give the Andrew Nemhard time to become Andrew Nemhard. Like, you need a uniform approach and a lot of buy in from a lot of different people to become the Indiana Pacers.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And you know, the Siakam deal, man, like, they deserve their props because I think a lot of people kind of poo poo that deal where it's like, all right, he's on the last year of his contract. You're going to have to give this guy 200 something million dollars. Like, is this dude even worth all of that? But like, to them it's like, well, he perfectly suits how and what we want to be. And so yeah, for us, he's absolutely a max player. He's absolutely the type of all star that we can bet on because he just fits like a glove man on both sides of the floor. And so I think that matters too, like being able to take the kind of risk or gamble on a guy and being like, look, yeah, we didn't make a Giannis trade or Anthony Davis trade or something like that. You know, some of the myriad of blockbuster deals that we've seen back in the days, but we got a guy that's perfect for us.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is the big takeaway for me about the Pacers run and kind of like if we're thinking about what could other teams look at the Pacers and say, how could we be more like them in some way as far as how we do our business that can make our team better? First round picks are really valuable and I think in the era like this apron era, teams are very wary about trading them and just giving them away. They want the salary protection that comes with, you know, young drafted players. Do not let late firsts stand in the way of the trade you need to make. Like, there are so many teams who are hanging on to picks that are going to be in the 20s, that are going to be in the late teens. Trading for Pascal Siakam cost the Pacers, Bruce Brown, Jordan Wara, and three firsts. And you may say, oh, my God, three firsts when you actually check the label on those three firsts. It was Indy's pick in 2024, one of those, like, worst of multi conditional picks in 2024. So that ended up as the 19th pick in the draft. Jacoby Walter, the 29th pick in the draft, Isaiah Collier, totally fine prospects not changing anybody's world. And then Indy's pick in 2026, that's top four protected. That's all it took to get Pascal Siakam. And that, that was a unique situation with Toronto, like, kind of holding on to Siakam for too long, ultimately having to settle for that kind of deal. They flipped stuff into Brandon Ingram. It's a whole thing. From a Pacers perspective, that is a very reasonable gamble to make with assets that Isaiah Collier, Jacoby Walter, those guys are not changing anything about Indiana's team. But Pascal Siakam changes a lot.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned this, because I also wanted to talk more about timelines, because the one thing that jumps out to me is, like, a lot of teams that we're talking about have such definitive windows, like when Tatum goes down. It's like an extreme example, but we're like, this window's over. Right. It just feels like teams are more targeted to one or two years than ever before. This is going to be what, the seventh team, a new title winner, which is historic. And so I almost wonder if the Pacers, by not necessarily being so precise about when they're going to push the button, because, like, yeah, the Siakam trade was substantial, but it didn't necessarily, like, upend them in a way that, like, they had to win now. They could win two to three years from now when Siakam's still going to be in his early 30s. It just feels like maybe the move is just like, leave the door open as long as possible and then, like, if things happen, we could just take advantage of it in the way that Indiana has. I also wonder how much that trickles into the way teams in the east are going to look at this off season, because it does seem like the conference is pretty Wide open at this point. We'll see what happens with the Cavs. I assume they'll roll things back just considering some of the injuries that they countered in the postseason, but Celtics are going to be hobbled at the very least. We'll see what, what, like, version they take on. And after that, I don't know. A couple teams on the come up, maybe we'll see if Giannis sticks with the Bucks at least for half a season. But, like, seems wide open, so why not just be as good as possible in the now? Because it just seems like you could win this whenever the opportunity presents itself.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think also it's important when you have a guy, you. You make the Halliburton trade, you're like, okay, we got an all star on our team. Let's lean into his gifts. You know, like, let's take that approach. Instead of being like, oh, hopefully some superstar goes on the market, or, oh, like, we need the number one pick or the number two pick or whatever. It's like, no, like, this kid plays a certain kind of way. We need to surround him with people that can elevate that. Which I think is also important. I think, you know, even similar to the Wolves getting rid of Carl Towns and being like, don't matter. We're an ant team. You know what I mean? Like, this is. This is a guy who's made multiple all Stars, max contract. It's like, no, we got a young guy. We're going to lean into Anthony Edwards being the fulcrum of what we do around here. And I think Indy did that in a different, you know, sort of fashion. And so I think they, they, they were smart. Obviously, they've shown themselves to be smart for doing so.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think there's a lot of ways that other teams in the east right now are going to be looking at those sorts of propositions with the open field that Justin described. Like, the Celtics are not going to be where they were. We'll see how competitive they are, if at all, how much they want to tease apart their roster, trade people for picks. I have no idea what they're going to do. We're going to find out. I do think Cleveland has all the more reason now to run it back more or less with the core of their team. Like, they did not show it against the Pacers, but that Cavs team is good. They're solid, they're talented. I think there's still enough upward mobility with the young players that are within that core to keep pushing forward. So the Cavs, you would Expect to more or less be there. Obviously, both of these teams, the Knicks and the Pacers, are going to be hugely competitive next year. Other than that, it's kind of anybody's game. It's like the very soft. The very soft middle of an already soft Eastern Conference is just, like, ripe for the taking. If you are the Detroit Pistons, if you're the Orlando Magic, if you are the Chicago Bulls. Well, I was going to. Maybe I was going to reach to an even darker place, which is, like, I'm not going to tell you. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that the Sixers have it all figured out, but, like, they might be in the middle by default with the rest of this group.

[Justin Ferrier]

I thought you were going to say the Hawks, because I have my. My shorthand of, like, the power rankings for the teams that might be able to convince themselves that they have a chance next year. And I kind of think, like, the Hawks are the prime example of this was like, what do you do with Trey Young? He's good enough that he gives us an opportunity, but he isn't perfect. And if anything, he maybe just, like, grates on you. And so, like, you're constantly looking to trade this type of guy, and yet you can't. And so you almost have to resign yourself to the fact that, like, we're pretty good with them. We might as well do the best that we can. And so, like, could the. Could the Hawks just, like, add one to two pieces and just actually be pretty spicy next year? Maybe. Depends on how depressed the top of how spicy is.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Jalen Johnson has to play, first of all.

[Rob Mahoney]

Get back, get healthy. Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I just think about, like, outside of those that you talk that you mentioned, like, oh, Kong was starting. Somebody has to be the 5 through 8 seed in this damn conference.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, Milwaukee is presumably not going to be there if the stuff with Giannis goes the way it seems to have been going. I think this is, like, a huge Orlando moment. They have been waiting for their time, and ostensibly their time was going to be, like, waiting for the right guy to come available in the trade market.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's a big off season for them.

[Rob Mahoney]

Huge off season for them, and it turns out that, like, the perfect star or whatever has not necessarily come available yet, but the east is just thinner and more vulnerable in the middle than it's been in a long time, and so they really do have an opportunity there to seize if they would care to do it.

[Justin Ferrier]

I think on, like, the concerning side of these things, like, I almost wonder, like, Are you worried that Milwaukee convinces themselves because the east is so wide open, like they don't trade Giannis if he's not like pushing them to do so? Yeah, they at the very least gonna give this half a season until the trade deadline to like see what we have with the Kevin generation record.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Like, I don't know why Giannis should be so thirsty to go to a team that has to give up five first round picks or whatever to get them. Like, like, is it going to be awesome where, where if he goes somewhere else? I'm not that convinced about that. Like, I don't, I don't really think there's like some huge downside to just chilling in Milwaukee and trying to figure something out there.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it is always tough when the teams have to trade a Giannis sized pool of stuff and usually players to get someone like Giannis in the first place. I, I think there is fair reason for Giannis to look around and I see this as someone who has loved the Giannis, Milwaukee experience, that relationship, what he's been able to build there. But you look around in an environment where Damian Lillard is going to be out for the foreseeable future and I, I just think we'll probably never be the same player ever again given his injury and his age. And so yeah, even a team that has to give up a bunch of first round picks is not. Kyle Kuzma, Kevin Porter Jr. Bobby Portis, AJ Green, Gary Trent Jr. Those were the starters in the final game of his season.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Tough. You're probably right about that.

[Justin Ferrier]

And yet I could see a path where that team at the very least convinces.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And you know, you know how much he loves brats and Milwaukee's best. Like I actually like being in Milwaukee.

[Justin Ferrier]

Ice cream's pretty good there.

[Rob Mahoney]

I've had it before the custard, let's be real about it. But plus look, Milwaukee in the summer, the Midwest in the summer. Absolutely undefeated.

[Justin Ferrier]

Maybe they take some Ls here and there. I don't know the two teams. I do want to mention that we kind of breezed past here. High end, low end, Detroit.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Justin Ferrier]

Primed to make like just one move in order to like really accelerate things. I do wonder if they're also in position to take advantage of the teams that are so cap strapped that they need to dump somebody. I guess want to put it out there that Jrue Holiday, at least according to the off brand trade machine that I use before this podcast, Drew Holiday for Toby Harris straight up works. And so like you throw a Pick in there and like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, can I say something insane?

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Does that make the Pistons better?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Now you talking my language.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just saying, like, like, Tobias Harris was pretty important to them and his size is pretty important to them. They need the stretch. They need like a combo 3, 4 in that spot. And like, Drew Holiday has not exactly been covering himself in glory lately. Shooting wise and like, look defensively is what he is and is great. No. No qualms with any of that. It's just I'm not sure that transforms their team.

[Unnamed Speaker]

By the way, this conversation is talking me into the East. Orlando, Detroit, Indy. East is back.

[Rob Mahoney]

New York. Yep.

[Justin Ferrier]

It was a two week lull. And niece is back. No, I'm saying, like, I think Boston.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Can be good next year.

[Justin Ferrier]

See, that's what I'm thinking. If they get enough, like, not okay.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Players good, but they can be good. Like, Jalen Brown averaged like 28 points a game and all of that. Like, they can be a good team.

[Rob Mahoney]

We will see.

[Justin Ferrier]

Prichard, Derrick White, Jalen Brown, Toby Harris.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Come on now.

[Justin Ferrier]

And I guess Keita would probably have to start at center.

[Unnamed Speaker]

This is going to be six.

[Justin Ferrier]

Dobs will be.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We did it. We solved it.

[Justin Ferrier]

Morta. Unfortunately.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, here's. Here's the thing about the Celtics we're talking a lot about, okay, they could be competitive. Like, what are they going to do with Drew Holiday, for example? There's some. There's some parts of that equation that are, like, out of their control. Like Luke Cornett, who's a very important part of their team, could just be gone. Like, he could just walk out the door. I believe Al Horford's a free agent too, as well. Right.

[Justin Ferrier]

He's going to die there. He's going to die on the court.

[Rob Mahoney]

I wouldn't blame him like a beloved Celtic. But if another contending team with his.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Red hat on, man.

[Justin Ferrier]

Jesus Christ. Last team I didn't want to mention, this would be the opposite side of things. Toronto, as we kind of mentioned, in contrast to what the Pacers did, has clearly just aspired to the middle. Like, will that actually pay off? Could they ultimately be a toxic seed? Because they're just fine. There's just enough, okay. Ness packed into this one team that the door is open for them to walk through it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Could they be a 6 seed? I guess it's a possibility. But like, Brandon Ingram is prominently involved in this six seed plan that we're hatching for them right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Can't say I'm into it, guys. Brandon Ingram and Scotty Barnes trying to make an offense work off of one another.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, they. They desperately need offense, period. Like they need shot making, period. And so I understand some. Some.

[Unnamed Speaker]

This is going to be the bloodiest offense that you've ever seen in your life, bro.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't like it. I don't think it's going to work particularly well. To the extent that they are aspiring to the middle, Justin, I think they're probably going to win somewhere in the ballpark of like 35 games. And in the east, maybe that makes you the fourth seed. I don't know.

[Justin Ferrier]

Like I was going to say, you get home court.

[Rob Mahoney]

So from that perspective, sure. But it depends on. Yeah. What your Bulls do, what these other teams in the middle do. Do the Nets swing and hit on anybody? Do they wind up with Giannis? I don't know. It's. There's a lot to play for, for sure.

[Justin Ferrier]

I think what we've kind of gotten here in our conclusion is to be great. Just be great as soon as possible.

[Rob Mahoney]

Try hard, be great.

[Justin Ferrier]

Win in the.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Develop young players.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep. Trade for Pascal Siakam.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes.

[Justin Ferrier]

Or trade him away and then just bring back a bunch of middling crazy replacement.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I don't pass, bro.

[Justin Ferrier]

I agree with you guys.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Insane.

[Rob Mahoney]

Scotty Barnes is good, though. Like, Scotty Barnes a lot. What? He's not Brandon Ingram.

[Justin Ferrier]

We'll see. That's what's on everybody's mind right now. Will the Toronto Raptors be okay next year?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Find out squarely in the middle of the zeitgeist of the NBA right now with this raptist chat.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, you know what? Teams lose by 50 and we have to find things to talk about. We gotta do what we gotta do.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It is what it is. On a Memorial Day weekend. Saturday.

[Rob Mahoney]

Seriously?

[Justin Ferrier]

That's right.

[Rob Mahoney]

If you're listening to Raptors Talk on a Memorial weekend, we simply have no choice but to salute you.

[Justin Ferrier]

Turn this off. Turn on the Seager. Just go into your garden and just let it rip, baby.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

Crack a logger. Yeah. All right, we'll wrap it there. We'll be back on Wednesday night as per usual. Thank you to Isaiah Blakeley. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll talk to you next time. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline MA or 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text hopeny in New York.

[Rob Mahoney]

This episode is brought to you by Disney's Lilo and Stitch, now playing only in theaters. A reimagining of Disney's animated classic, Lilo and Stitch is the wildly funny and touching story of a little lonely Hawaiian girl, Lilo, and the fugitive alien Stitch, who helps to mend her broken family. Disney's Lilo and Stitch, now playing only in theaters. Rated pg. Get tickets now.