Young Core Rankings, Part 1. Plus, the Knicks are Cup Champs. | Group Chat

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show: Young Core Rankings, Part 1 & Knicks Are Cup Champs | Group Chat

Date: December 17, 2025
Hosts: Justin Verrier (JV), Rob Mahoney (RM), J. Kyle Mann (JKM)

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Episode Overview

This robust episode of Group Chat features The Ringer NBA team launching their annual "Young Core Rankings," sizing up the best (and not-so-best) under-24 NBA talent pools, and debating who classes as a blue-chip prospect. But before diving into the rankings, the crew breaks down the Knicks’ triumph in the NBA Cup over the Spurs, examining what the win means for New York, San Antonio, and broader league trends.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Knicks Win the NBA Cup: Olds Triumph Over Youngs (00:30–17:16)

Knicks vs. Spurs Recap

• Approach & Experience Matters: Knicks’ blend of size, savvy, and methodical execution outlasted the athletic but less-polished Spurs.
  • JV: “Frankly, from the Knicks perspective, like, kind of a blueprint for how they could win the East... This is the exact sort of combination of size and savvy and Jalen Brunson, like, attracting a ton of attention.”
• The Process & Execution: Knicks’ offense used Brunson as a “diversion,” enabling efficient secondary action. Spurs, meanwhile, are still in early development stages on that front.
  • JKM: “You could just kind of see that the Spurs weren’t as sure about that, about how to go about that process, and the Knicks just were.”
• In-Game Adjustments:
  • First half: Spurs ran wild in transition with high-energy, athletic plays.
  • Second half: Knicks' bench, especially Tyler Kolek and Jordan Clarkson, swung the game with key plays. Mitchell Robinson’s 10 offensive rebounds were a gamechanger against a normally stout Spurs rebounding squad.
  • JKM (on Kolek): “He preemptively shut me up... Insane [impact] with the energy, with all those connective plays. Also Mitchell Robinson, 10 offensive rebounds. Insane.”
• Spurs’ Struggles:
  • Wemby showed flashes (threes, dunks), but started hunting for daggers instead of playing within flow—“kind of in shell shock mode” against the Knicks’ size (06:08–09:18).
  • Spurs' supporting cast (Barnes, Vassell, Harper) missed open looks and fell victim to New York’s methodical attack.

Knicks’ Roster Depth & DNA

• OG Anunoby: Praised for reliability as a two-way threat; impossible to pin down or focus on due to his off-ball movement. “He rules every game he plays.” (12:00)
• Benchmark Moments: Knicks’ rotation and “All Dogs Attack” identity have survived star additions, even as personalities/roles shift.
• JV: “If you have concerns about the Knicks, it would be the bench... but they acquit themselves in these big moments.”

Organizational Questions

• For Spurs: Do they need another big to contend with Western heavyweights, or is their investment in their current bigs (Cornet, Olenek) enough? (15:11)

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Young Core Rankings: Bottom Dwellers to the Practical Middle (17:17–End)

Methodology & Eligibility (19:34–21:11)

• Eligibility: Players in their age 24 season or younger, as listed on Basketball Reference.
• Value: Mix of current/long-term upside and “asset value” (what you'd get for them as a trade chip).
• Notable: Blue-chip list focuses on upside, not just current performance.

Rankings & Notable Arguments

30. LA Clippers

• Consensus: No promising young pieces, just theoretical projects and depth champions.
  • RM: “There’s just no young player on the Clippers I see really anything in whatsoever.”
• Kobe Sanders: Only one with some “potential as a catch-and-shoot guy,” but not ready for real minutes.

29. New York Knicks

• Bright spot: Tyler Kolek; debate over whether his impact is real or “aspirational TJ McConnell.”
  • JKM: “He’s a ball-mover... gives them a little burst.”
  • RM: “I'm quite lukewarm at best when it comes to the Kolik experience.”
• Prospects like Hug Porti or Dotier only inspire mild hope.

28. LA Lakers

• Jake LaRavia: First “rotation player” on these low-ranked teams; likely to be a serviceable guy, but not a star.
• Dalton Knecht: Confidence and role issues; the “JJ Redick” comparison for tough development and coach-player dynamics.
• Nick Smith Jr and Ado Thiero: “Quintessential lie detector test guy” and “absolute maniac” hustle types, but real impact limited.
• Bronny James: “Still needs a G League progression... hard way to develop for any player, especially on this particular team.” (38:55)

27. Sacramento Kings

• Maxime Reynaud: Flashed real potential as a mobile big, “wiry,” and “got some shit to him.” (42:57)
• Nik Clifford: JKM still believes (“diamond hands”), but “shooting just has not been there.”
• Role: General lack of young promise; Raynaud stands out by default.

26. Boston Celtics

• Jordan Walsh, Ugo Gonzalez, Josh Minott: All have impressed in spurts, but as a group, only “1.5 rotation players.”
• JKM (on Walsh): “If it were possible, he would be a canker sore on your ass. But if it were possible, it would be Jordan Walsh.” (49:08)
• “All have that dog in them”—Celtics’ young core praised for defensive versatility and fit.

25. Milwaukee Bucks

• Ryan Rollins: Real growth this year—“making threes really consistently,” great point-of-attack gravity, but is he a star or just a system guy?
  • JKM: “First player on the list who could do these types of things credibly and consistently…”
• Andre Jackson Jr.: Disappointment so far (“painful, I believed in him”). Team lacks high-upside youth.

24. Indiana Pacers

• Jarace Walker: Disappointing and ambiguous fit (“maybe he does stink”), not adapted to a perimeter-heavy modern game.
• Ben Mathurin: Flashes but hasn’t popped with opportunity; may serve as “spark plug, sixth man,” rather than star.
• Ben Sheppard: Good defender, but not enough shooting or organization impact.

23. Denver Nuggets

• Christian Braun: “Finals, championship-validated role player,” but not an upside guy.
• Peyton Watson & Julian Strawther: Hoped for more, but neither has “popped” as a next-level prospect.
• Debate over Spencer Jones: Energetic, but lacks enough offensive production or defensive strength to move the needle. (67:41)

22. Golden State Warriors

• Kuminga, Pajemski, Moody, Will Richard: Kuminga still gets value from “real hooper” types, but consensus is most of his return is as an asset, not production. Pajemski may want to be “the face” but would be best as a seventh/eighth man.

21. Miami Heat

• Khalil Ware: Debate over whether he’ll be an actual star or “top 50-70 player.” Defensive tools and shooting intrigue.
  • JKM: "He could flirt with top 50 in the league. Maybe top 50–70."
• Jaime Jaquez: Resurging, but needs movement/kinetic system to thrive.
• Jovic: “Does a little of everything, but nothing at a truly high level.” Can't carve out role.
• Yakushonis: Needs more time.

20. Portland Trail Blazers

• Donovan Clingan: “Big old rim protector,” but probably tapped at 25 minutes a night max; value is in being a “solid dude.”
• Scoot Henderson: Still believe in the makeup—should become a good/high-level starter.
  • JV: "[Scoot's] just a hardo grinder who revels in mastering nuances of the position."
• Shaden Sharpe: Worrisome development—if he can’t shoot, he’s just an “energy scorer.” Mental part needs to click.
• Rayan Rupert: Looks rough against NBA competition but is a “lottery ticket.”
• Concern: All development is hope-based; Deni Avdija is technically not eligible by age, so core feels even less inspiring.

19. Phoenix Suns

• Mark Williams: Valuable athletic rim protector when deployed correctly. Injury a worry; trade that acquired him looks better in hindsight.
• Lottery-ticket depth: Malawatch, Ryan Dunn, Rasher Fleming, Ogodaro—solid but likely capped as versatile role guys.
• JKM: “It's solid. I don't know about the overall upside.”

18. Brooklyn Nets

• Noah Clowney: The closest thing to a blue-chip, as a versatile, plug-and-play, three-and-D rim-protector (99:34).
• Cam Thomas: “Undeniable at what he does,” but assists few and skepticism about his scalability. Usage up, but little creation for others.
  • JKM: “It’s undeniable that he will do what he does.”
• Jégor Guilman: "Fewest two-pointers" stat noted, passing praised, but must develop offensive aggression.
• Drake Powell: Will be a solid, if somewhat subtle, role player.

17. Memphis Grizzlies

• Zach Edey: Both a breakthrough and a major injury concern (“stress reaction in his left ankle”). “When he's on, looks like a real difference-maker.”
• Cedric Coward: “He's nailed to the floor for the Grizzlies... going to jive with whatever they choose to do.” Non-scoring impact (rebounding, defense) stands out.
• Jalen Wells: Spark plug archetype.

16. Chicago Bulls

• Noah Aseng: Barely seen; asset only in the broadest sense.
• Josh Giddey: Top blue-chip prospect for some panelists; others see ceiling as “major contributor on a good-fun team, not a true title team's solution.” (117:01)
  • JKM: “...Third, fourth, probably, if he accepted a lesser role. Some of these primacy-insistent guys just lead you to think that they're more, but really... they have to accept a different role on a title team.”
• Bruze Ellis/Modest Vuzelis: Still a believer in all-around contributor role, not as a primary creator.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The process was the most obvious, glaring thing... As you get a little older, you start to know who you are a little better. For some people, that involves therapy. For some people, that’s being together with great teammates, like the Knicks—which is, in a way, therapy.” —J. Kyle Mann (02:08)
• “[On Tyler Kolek] I’m quite lukewarm at best when it comes to the Kolek experience.” —Rob Mahoney (29:10)
• “There’s just no young player on the Clippers I see really anything in whatsoever... Even their project big is 22 and can’t get on the floor.” —Rob Mahoney (24:17)
• “[On Kuminga] When he’s played, he’s actively made the Warriors worse on both sides of the ball.”—Rob Mahoney (72:13)
• “A do Thiero would dive into a vat of sulfuric acid to maybe get a deflection. The dude is an absolute maniac.” —J. Kyle Mann (38:28)
• “OG Anunoby: Did he miss a shot tonight?” —Rob Mahoney (12:00)
• “If Shaden [Sharpe] can’t shoot well...I’m really worried. He still has the ability to float in the air and so you want to keep betting on him.” —Justin Verrier (86:43)
• “It's solid. I don’t know about the overall upside.” —J. Kyle Mann (93:37, on the Suns’ prospects)
• “Cam Thomas: It’s undeniable that he’ll do what he does.” —JKM (102:54)
• “Nick Clifford—diamond hands.” —Rob Mahoney (44:59)
• “Every young player needs tension and release.”—J. Kyle Mann (89:42)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:30–03:45 — Knicks vs. Spurs NBA Cup Final recap; Knicks’ process vs. Spurs’ youth.
• 06:08–09:18 — Spurs’ struggles integrating Wembanyama, Knicks’ defensive schemes.
• 15:11–16:33 — Spurs’ frontcourt depth question (“Do the Spurs need another big?” discussion).
• 17:17–21:11 — Young Core rankings, rules, and eligibility.
• 23:28–24:17 — Clippers’ total lack of young talent, organization philosophy.
• 29:10–29:16 — Knicks’ low ceiling for young prospects.
• 38:28 — Ado Thiero’s hustle.
• 42:57 — Praise for Maxime Reynaud as a rare Kings highlight.
• 49:08 — Jordan Walsh, “canker sore on your ass” (defensive tenacity anecdote).
• 67:41–68:26 — Spencer Jones’ value (or lack thereof) for Denver.
• 86:13–86:55 — Sharp and Portland: optimism vs. disappointment.
• 99:25–100:42 — Brooklyn's Noah Clowney blue-chip debate.
• 102:53–103:36 — Cam Thomas’ scoring profile (21 assists in 8 games).
• 117:01–117:46 — Josh Giddey ceiling debate.

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Summary & Tone

The tone throughout is analytical and playful, with deep dives into player development and plenty of running jokes—about “guys’ guys,” “tension and release,” the “airport test,” and self-mocking for their own hacks and biases. The analysis is peppered with lighthearted bickering, but carries a clear respect for both the nuances of player development and the sometimes-humbling reality for fringe youth on win-now teams.

Next Episode: Part Two will move up from #15 to #1, featuring much spicier debates over who truly has the best young core and which blue-chip prospects are worth betting the franchise on.

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For more, listen to The Ringer NBA Show's Group Chat wherever podcasts are found.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varior. And joining me here in lovely Los Angeles, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle Man. We are here to talk about some young cores. We did two parts, two robust episodes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Totaling probably more than five hours. Going through number one or number 30 to number one of the best collection of young players in the entire NBA. We also did some ranking of the best blue chip prospects. You'll see part one of that and listen to it after we get through this little spiel here. And then part two will go up on Thursday. But first and foremost, guys, we gotta talk about how the olds triumphed in the NBA Cup.

[A]

Us?

[B]

No, well, I guess us to a certain extent because we had some fun together.

[C]

We triumph, we ate. You know, I know you're very sensitive about heavy meals before you podcast, so I think in that sense, you triumph tonight.

[A]

That's proof that you're old. You know, the young man's game is. I'm just gonna eat whatever before I go to play.

[B]

I mean, the falafel was like, you know, it's. It's fried, but it's still light. I feel light on my toes.

[A]

I'm ready.

[C]

I'm ready to podcast an eerie falafel. Yeah, I'd say so.

[A]

Justin Verrier. Powered by chickpeas.

[B]

Yeah, that's what they say.

[C]

Powered by something. Might as well be chickpeas.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But dare I say that the third NBA cup final was the best?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, we got a great matchup. Knicks, Spurs. And frankly, from the Knicks perspective, like, kind of a blueprint for how they could win the east. To be honest with you. Like, this is the exact sort of combination of size and savvy and Jalen Brunson, like, attracting a ton of attention. All these supporting scorers, they just have a lot to work with. And a team like the spurs has a lot to work with too, but they're figuring so much out in real time that the Knicks have already figured out through multiple playoff runs. And so you could really. I just think the experience different, like, really differentiated them in this game. And of course, just the size. I mean, the Knicks looked huge. And that's with Kat being injured for part of this game.

[C]

Yeah. That's funny because you look at the guys that. Well, I'll start with what you were talking about. I think the process was the most obvious, glaring thing that was. And I don't mean Joel Embiid. I mean the fact that the way that the Knicks were going about their. Their Business. Granted, as you get a little older, luckily, if you're. If you're lucky, you start to know who you are a little bit better. For some people, that involves therapy or just being together with great teammates like the Knicks, which is a form of therapy, I guess, in a way.

[A]

I think so.

[C]

But I think down the stretch, kind of something that really jumped out to me was the fact that you mentioned the diversion using your primary. Your primary source of score as a diversion that can kind of have this ripple effect. And we'll get more into this in detail. I know, but it was a little. You could just kind of see that the. The spurs weren't as sure about that, about how to go about that process, and the Knicks just were. They were really affected by it.

[B]

Yeah. It's funny because earlier in the game, we were remarking about kind of the juice that collectively the spurs all had, especially in contrast to the Knicks, who are much more girthy and methodical is how I would describe them.

[A]

And the first half was like a home run derby for the Spurs. It was like dunk, dunk, layup, dunk. Just all in transition, all easy. And then that changed really quickly.

[B]

Yeah. And the bench looked particularly spry in contrast to the Knicks, who are like, kind of piecing this together, especially with Hart going into the starting lineup. And it's such an advantage to be able to throw out Fox and Harper as a combination to run your second unit. We're talking about a guy who's been at the forefront of the league and a guy who might be there pretty soon. We'll talk about that in the second episode of our young core rankings. But it really just flipped to the point where, like, Clarkson hitting a couple big threes late down the stretch and Tyler Cola coming in and making a ton of plays like, really swung this game for the Knicks.

[A]

Tyler Koch did really well. I'm about to tell you, in our young Cores ranking, why I don't believe in Tyler Kolek. I mean, he preemptively shut me up somehow. Didn't even hear what I had to say, and did it inarguable that he had an effect on this game with the energy, with all those connective plays. Also Mitchell Robinson, 10 offensive rebounds. Insane. And the spurs, we should say, are usually a very good defensive rebounding team. Victor Wembanyama is not playing his full allotment of minutes. That changes the dynamics a little bit. But also, the Knicks are just a particular imposition in that way. And so if they have control of the game, and they did. And they're making all these small plays on the margins and they did. And also they're getting all these second chances because of Mitch and OG and Kat when he was out there. I just think that's a little too much for a Spurs team that over the back half of this game just felt like they were reacting to things. They weren't really dictating anything to me, be honest with you.

[B]

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[C]

You could really feel the tide turn. I wrote it down at four. Oh, well, let's see. When the Knicks went up three at 10:20 in the fourth quarter, you could kind of time of death, you could kind of sense, well, the game shifted where you could sense that. You know, early in the game, it was like Castle, I was texting somebody. I was like, Castle was just kind of the perimeter alpha in the first like 25, 30 minutes of the game. Yeah, really, really. Granted, he wasn't super efficient. He was, you know, we'll get into the efficiency of the scores, but 5 for 15, they wasted a really great Dylan Harper shooting night. That was, that was, that was tough. But the game, I felt like the Knicks kind of forced them into the deep end a little bit and they were like, all right, buddy, show us you can paddle those feet. And the Knicks just have a more effective and you know, forcing not only a young team to guard deep into the clock, which is, which is tough, but then also forcing them to reset and guard again. And a lot of those just kind of like broken plays, it just kind of accumulated. It was, you know, Clarkson hit one off of like a, a loose ball, scrambling for the rebound, kick it to him. It just seemed like it was a lot of plays like that that kind of added up to the, to their demise.

[B]

So we talked the other day about how much of an impact Wemby had in limited minutes against the Thunder. Today's game, like I was actually startled by his line because it looks pretty good on paper, but he had a couple big jumpers and key moments where the shot just looked very good, but ultimately pretty muted performance. How much do you think that's the minutes and just kind of like trying to balance all of that versus, like, dealing with the heft of the Knicks, because it seems like at times, like they were really up under him. And those are a lot of big boys to contend with.

[A]

I thought he played really well for a while. And then after that stretch where he was basically alternating threes and lob dunks, and then he hit like a Dirk, kind of like elbow mid Ranger. That was really sweet. He just started, like, hunting for the dagger. You know, he's just kind of like, trying to hit huge shots and not trying to hit good shots or at least create good shots. And so I think he was as guilty of anyone as in terms of, like, not settling into some kind of process like you were talking about Kyle. It's like they were just kind of chasing stuff, and you can't do that in a game like this. You have to settle down. You have to find your bearings. And dear. And Fox, I thought he had a really, like, a real mixed bag of a game, too, in this way, where he's supposed to be the steady hand. And he looked like just as much of a chicken with his head cut off as Castle did at times or Wimby did at times, where they're just kind of going after what's right in front of them.

[C]

Yeah, we didn't get a great chance to see Fox be super methodical, but I think it's. It's important to note that as young as this team is, the older components within this young team have also just not spent a ton of time playing together. I mean, still. Still, Fox and Wimby have only played 140 minutes together so far, so not a ton. And I just thought that I wanted to pose this to you guys. I kind of feel like Wimby. There's this thing that happens whenever a player does something crazy. Like a player of Wimy's body type does something amazing, and you're just like, I can't believe somebody of that shape and size could do that. And we get so wowed and kind of intoxicated by it. And you could tell that Wimby does, too, that he kind of goes back to it. It kind of causes this trade off that can end up being positive. Like, remember when Giannis would hit threes? I always had this joke that like, everybody would be like, oh my God, he's making threes. If I were like the opposing head coach, I would secretly do the Ron, the Ron Swanson fist bump. Because when Wimby gets lured into settling for those, I just feel like it causes him to go further out from what he does effectively. I. I just can't help but think that if they can operate somehow with him at the slot and get him attacking one on one matchups and then have him pass out of that. It just seems like the more I don't. It feels like he needs to settle into something that is more effective for him because either they're deferring too much or they just don't know how to all like feed off of each other. It's just not quite straightened out the way it is for the Knicks.

[A]

I want to give the Knicks credit for that too, because I think some of what they did defensively, especially in the like, late third quarter into the fourth, was blow up a lot of that connective tissue. The kind of the opportunities where Wimby is getting like a little duck in where he would draw a foul, all of a sudden Tyler Kolek like cut him off in transition. They never get Wemby the ball. They have to pull it out, they have to reset. There were a lot of plays like that where normally you would see Wemby get to an advantageous spot and instead he's circling out to three. He's taking those shots that he's kind of been subtly reinforced to take because he hit two of them, and then all of a sudden they're just falling into a really weird rhythm.

[B]

Yeah, he got off to a fast start this season because he had a nice balance between the two approaches. And you thought that if he could just carry that out throughout the season, then he would be onto something pretty spectacular, quicker than we probably thought. Unfortunately, teams have kind of got up under him, have sicked these kind of big wings at him in order to jostle his dribble. And I do think, like he is still in kind of like a shell shock mode when that happens. And now this wasn't the bigger wings. It was a lot of like, Mitchell Robinson whatnot. But that's still a lot of big bodies crowding him and it forces him to take those threes. And if he' not hitting them, then obviously it's a little bit easier to guard him. I was a little bit disappointed, though, that the guys around him couldn't activate things, because in that Thunder game, you saw the Cascading effect of Fox leading into Castle leading into Harper. And in this one it felt like guys were going at times, but a lot of the time it was a. There was some your, your turn, my turn stuff at first, and then there didn't seem to be that natural rhythm that kind of burst out in that Thunder game. And I do wonder if this is the battle overall for this team where it's just like, how do you balance those guys? We saw it down late. Like they played three guards together with Vassella, I believe, or perhaps three guards with.

[A]

With Vassell and Wemby, which is something we've been kind of eager to see how that would pan out over a longer term. And certainly in a game like this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It wasn't really enough of what they needed.

[B]

Yeah. And they had to choose even before that, going with Harper over Castle, which I don't think you want to do. I can cast. Harper was playing better. He got Brunson to turn it over with the backcourt violation. But at the same time, like, Castle is built for these moments. And even if he wasn't shooting well, I want him out there in that moment.

[A]

Yeah, I think that was probably mostly just rotation stuff. It was like getting Castle a quick rest so he could come back in and finish with that group. The Castle part of this is interesting though, because he had a really sharp playmaking game. I thought he was making some passes. It's like, whoa, that's a. That's a nice nifty feed for a young point guard to make, especially one whose kind of on ball capacity was up for debate in his rookie season. Like, who is this guy going to be? Some really advanced individual passes. But when it came to all these organizational aspects, he wasn't settling the team down necessarily in the third and fourth quarter. He was making spectacular individual plays. And this is sort of the balance of where he is right now as a prospect. Is, can he do both of those things? Can he make the next level plays but also get to the. Get the spurs into some collective next level stuff?

[C]

I also think there was a pumpkinization of some of their key guys that really would have made a big difference. And there was too much shot missing going on where we needed shot making. And these were open looks. I mean, Barnes just, he went 0 for 4 from 3. He got to the point where he passed 1 up and drove into Brunson and got lucky and got fouled. But then you get vassell, you know, 4 for 14, 2 for 7 from 3. It just kind of added up in a way that was just not survivable. I think ultimately for them.

[B]

On the flip side, OG Anunoby, did he miss a shot tonight?

[C]

Didn't feel like it.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Rules every game he plays.

[B]

We were actually trying to figure out if Rob could curl more than OG Anunoby.

[A]

We're not trying to figure that out. I think it's been asked an answer.

[C]

Could OG on and Obi curl Rob?

[A]

You know what, I'm willing to, I'm willing to do donate myself for the experiment if OG wants to try it.

[B]

But the all around game, like this is, this is the moment he was built for.

[A]

He's awesome. Like just an incredible all around player. We, we know what he can be defensively and he, he's one of these guys who's just so good, if you turn your head, like, if you turn your head to watch Brunson for too long, the shoot, like the shot will always be there for him and is super reliable. He's also big enough that a late contest is not enough. All, like, all these combination plays from him where he's impossible to pin down. He's impossible to focus on because he's never the driving force of really anything they do.

[B]

Do you guys think about the Knicks or Spurs any differently based off of these cup runs?

[A]

It feels like an affirmation of what we thought about both of them, to be honest. I think if the opposite result had happened, we would have the big takeaways right then. It's, oh, like, are, you know, what's. Why aren't the Knicks further along? Why aren't they closer to their, their core and their identity? But this is a Knicks team that's missing several rotation guys and it's just plugging in Tyler Kolek and it's working. Missing Cat for part of this game. And it doesn't matter. They just have enough, like, impact veteran contributors who make these sorts of huge plays. And that's who we expected them to be going into the season. It's not always who they've been during the early stages of this regular season, but they're here. They're going to be here. They're going to be one of the best teams in the East.

[C]

I did kind of feel like you were Louis CK in American Hustle and I was Bradley Cooper coming in and laughing at every great play that Tyler Kohlik made. I was like, you know, just really having a great time. He's probably, he's probably going to have his own pumpkinization after I Bragged.

[A]

But don't make me the Louis CK of anything ever again, please.

[B]

I mean, if you have. If you have concerns about the Knicks, it would be the bench and like to see them acquit themselves in these book moments. It's funny because there was like some. Some graphic that came out. I think it was the All NBA podcast about like the. The best increase in jump shooting versus in decrease. And Clarkson was very much in the decrease pile and he was missing to start with, but he clicked it in the big moments and this is what you want from this team. And this is kind of the DNA of the Knicks altogether where it's like it's nutc and these guys just make things happen that had dissipated to a certain degree because you lost the All Dogs attack where it was hart and Dante DiVincenzo and just like a bunch of freaking piranhas out there. But there is a nice melding of things where it's like the offense is starting to diversify a little bit, but they still have that DNA there.

[A]

Right. I think getting that sort of honest to goodness Jordan Clarkson game is huge. It's huge for his confidence. He's had a couple of like little scoring pop games here and there. This felt like a real moment. Right. This is an opportunity. It's a different kind of stage. This is the NBA Cup. You know, we're all. We're going to stop and admire its pageantry.

[B]

Stan Van Gunny definitely, he certainly did. He loves telling you that this is an important event that you will all love.

[C]

If you don't like it, you're stupid. You don't know. You don't know ball, basically.

[A]

But we do know ball and we respect the cup and so we respect Jordan Clarkson and his contributions.

[B]

Okay. I think that's everything I have. You guys. Anything else from the Cup? We love the Cup.

[A]

Love the Cup. Likes like Stan Van. We enjoyed it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Do the spurs need another big. That's my other question. Defensively, I kind of wonder. I thought that Cornette had his little spots he had. You know, defensively in this game I was like, this is similar to what they're going to see if they get in any serious west games. I just wondered if that was maybe a spot where. How do we feel about that? One more big. Would they be happy?

[A]

What kind of big would you like?

[C]

Maybe a little more ranginess and athleticism. But where are you going to go get that? I'm not sure.

[B]

Is Olenek not exactly what you're looking for there?

[C]

Not quite. No. No.

[A]

He's something like. He's. He's not a nothing contributor, but he's not really built for a game like this. He's not going to keep Mitchell Robinson off the offensive glass. Right. And so then in a matchup like this one, or hypothetically against the Houston Rockets, where are you getting these minutes from? Are you going to bank on Harrison Barnes, like really bodying guys up when it matters, Or Julian Shampani, who plays a good deal of four for this team too?

[B]

Yeah, I think they've just spent so much of their resources on backup big men at this point. Getting Cornet and signing to a lucrative deal and then also getting Olenek in there. They kind of shot their wad in that terms. I guess you could spin old Linnuk into something else because he isn't expiring, but it almost feels like they had a vision for that three man big rotation and it would be tough to get rid of that just right now.

[A]

They also, in fairness, won the Luke Cornet minutes, so that wasn't exactly the problem. Um, I honestly think it was a lot more when the spurs best players were on the floor, they were trying to figure out how to do this together in a game like this, and they did. They didn't quite have it in this one, which is okay.

[B]

That was my takeaway for the Spurs. Very much a work in progress, especially after the high of the previous game. This is kind of more of what we expected at this point in the season with these guys all getting on the court together. On the flip side, I think if you think very long term, the Knicks potentially winning the East, I would still pick them to come out of the conference. If the Thunder are waiting down the road, it's nice to be able to show the advantage that could show up in that matchup. You want to be big, you want to play bigger, you want to be tougher, because that's one thing that you still perhaps have against a Thunder team that's going to swipe the hell out of you, but don't have that same sort of oomph in order to combat that.

[A]

So transitive property. Spurs beat the Thunder, Knicks beat the spurs, so Knicks can beat the Thunder.

[B]

Knicks are your NBA title winners in addition to the cup winners.

[A]

New York Knicks.

[B]

Okay, let's wrap it there. So what you're going to hear now is part one of the two parts of the young core rankings. First time we're ever doing this. Very excited about this. We recorded these on Monday, by the way. So if there are things that are just a little bit dated. That's why if your Tyler Kolik takes aren't as fresh as you'd like them.

[C]

To be, I regret nothing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

The rest of us do apologize.

[B]

Let's take a quick break and when we come back, you'll get right into the Yuncore rankings.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move fast and Amazon prime keeps you in control with fast and free delivery. We've all been there. Family plans are fluid. Somebody's not coming. Suddenly they are coming and you're excited about it. You want to get them a gift. So you hop on Amazon prime, line that up with their interests. And it's easy to do because Amazon has everything. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. Need that last minute gift or holiday essential? It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now.

[B]

All right, we're back and we're here with the first edition of the young core rankings. Are you guys excited?

[A]

I mean, Kyle, this is your area. I feel like if anyone, you should be jazzed. But I'm, I'm jazzed to be interloping in it. I gotta say, for someone with a.

[C]

Really weak core, I feel very confident about the cores. The strong, young cores of the NBA.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Maybe I'll get invigorated to go work on my core after that. That's what we can. That's what we can hope for. That's the least we can hope for.

[A]

That's the three men of a certain age with assuredly back problems. The, the weak core just kind of goes without saying.

[B]

Well, Kyle's the only one who's actually worked on the young cores before because we used to do this as a site post. Zach Cram did it from a statistical pov. Kyle helped him out, I believe once, maybe twice as some sort of like aggregate, like scout versus stats ranking. We're going to do this. Just three guys talking about some young players, hopefully with some expertise, hopefully with some depth. But we're just going to bring perspective to the, to the table here. So I think the timing of this is going to be interesting because trade season is upon us. And I also think a lot of teams, if you're looking to sell, you're probably looking at some of these players. Not even just the blue chip guys, not even just the highly drafted guys, but like what guys should they be looking for? And so we'll talk through that sort of Thing the rules, shall we go through them? So we ranked every player one to 30, all three of us. We aggregated the ranking. Isaiah broke the ties. Several ties. Look at that. Crazy.

[A]

Do you trust Isaiah with that much power?

[B]

Always. That's why we give him final say.

[A]

I don't know. I heard his Ryan Rollins takes coming into the spot. I don't entirely trust it, but I believe he did his best to be objective.

[B]

He believes in Hugo Gonzalez and I believe in him.

[C]

He's already grumbling over that. I could just distantly hear him.

[B]

So players who are eligible, age 24, season or under. So if you're in your age 25 season as designated by basketball reference, you are not eligible. That means we're not going by birth date, we're not going by anything else. It's just how you're listed there this year 24, most of the season practically you were eligible from there.

[A]

I just want to underline and reiterate like if you are mad because Jaden McDaniels is not on this list, I don't know what to tell you. We've outlined it up top. He's not eligible. Please do not yell at us for including players who are 25 and 26.

[C]

Although he is still very much young.

[A]

He's young.

[C]

We can quibble about his semantics, but he is, you know, he's not capital Y.

[A]

Why young as in young Course.

[B]

That's right. So we should just play that clip for every team. Don't yell if anyone is jumping around. Also in terms of like weighing the depth of talent versus individual talents, that's up to the voter. Right? We'll discuss this as we go along. But different people have different perspectives. And so like it really is kind of eye of the beholder. Last thing we're gonna go through in the midst of all of this and mark the 15 best blue chip prospects in the NBA. Not necessarily the 15 best players under 25, but the blue chip prospects. So like long term future from this point on we'll also talk through some maybes which are actually kind of the more interesting guys.

[A]

I mean it's almost a question of who will be the 15 best players. So yeah, not present tense, not today. Who is highest ranking in The Ringer top 100. But who do you believe in?

[C]

There's an interesting thing too. When I was listening to you all before we started talk about the, the temptation to sort of look at the present because I think the difference between, you know, when we were, we were, you know, water cooler talking about this episode before we got going was. I felt like I had maybe. I'm not going to say it's an advantage because you guys have now evaluated them with your own eyes, but I, I have the eval before they come into the NBA, I always say, really dictates. It kind of creates the sort of DNA strands that really run through a player's career that is, you know, and I. That's something that I don't feel myself on deck or getting ready to struggle with as much just because I'm like, it's not hard for me to imagine this player is going to be better than this other player because of what they've done. So that'll be an interesting thing to weigh, too, as we, as we go through this exercise, because that also might be a harmful bias.

[A]

I was about to say we call this anchoring bias. You know, as far as we're concerned, you have a bunch of junk in your brain about what happened in a game against Nebraska that we just simply don't have to worry about.

[C]

Or Zaire. Zaire Williams was really incredible at this CYBL event that I went to in 2019, and he has screwed me over ever since that weekend.

[B]

Yeah, you're deep in the weeds on the Tyler Kolik Experience and. Well, well, awesome. Let's get to that right now because we're going to go from 30 up. We'll break in the middle of this and we'll go into two part. The next episode will be on Thursday. Number 30 wasn't unanimous, but 30 and 29 was one of these two teams for all of us. Rob and I were on the Clippers, who fall at number 30. Kyle, you were Knicks at 30.

[C]

I mean, I don't really think that this is one that I'm just gonna, like, claw at the walls of the. Of the. The argument and. And until my fingernails fall off and bleed. And in hopes to win this argument because it's just kind of. As much as I love Tyler Kolik, I understand Rob, you tease me about, like, him hanging on for dear life when he's out there. I think this is a coin flip. I mean, hook, party hook. 40 for the Knicks has shown some things. I can understand how you would like that. And Kolik, other than that, among these two teams, the Clippers, what is there? What is there that is even worthwhile long term? I mean, are you guys Kame Christie enthusiasts or.

[A]

No, I think this is why they're distinctly at the number 30. As I look at every theoretically young Clipper and I say Theoretically, because even Janik Conan Niederhauser, that's a project.

[B]

Can you say that again?

[A]

Jannik Conan Niederhauser.

[C]

He's very proud of himself to be able to say it. He's rattled it off like 20 times.

[A]

Literally a player's name.

[C]

I was like, rob, what do you want for. For lunch today? Like, why'd you say that?

[A]

I. Look, I. I want what I want a project big who is 22 years old, you know, so it's like even the guys who you would want to buy in on because they have some intangible quality you might theoretically believe in, they're a little further along the age curve. They've got an opportunity like Kobe Sanders has and they just like haven't really impressed to the point of James Harden kind of side eyeing him through all their minutes together. There's just no young player on the Clippers I see really anything in whatsoever. With all due respect and perhaps this.

[B]

Exercise goes a long way in explaining why the Clippers are where they are. Because their front office had built this depth of talent before they started making trades, bringing in stars first and foremost with the Chris Paul trade, just getting a bunch of just league average guys and kind of building them into something else to the point where Beverly and other guys were there in order to surround the stars that they thought were going to lead them into this nice new generation. Unfortunately did not work. But I thought that they would be able because of their front office's success and perhaps some of the just the resume, I thought that they would be able to get guys in the 30s in the 29s in the second round picks. But they haven't thus far and Niederhauser is one of them. He was picked 30 overall. Kobe Brown, another guy, 30th overall pick. Keon Johnson, another guy they traded on draft night for Grimes. So Grimes went to New York, Keon Johnson went to the Clippers. Like you got to strike at some point. One of these guys just to get some rotation minutes from a guy that's not 30 and load managing.

[C]

Yeah, I mean another guy that would that Musa Diabate was a guy that they had in their little. I remember was one from the exercises that Cram and I did a huge Sharks guy. That was one that I really enjoyed. Hell yeah, he tapped him pretty early as a guy who was interesting. But that's another one. They just have sort of not had the time for that lately really since the Shay trade, it's just been very top heavy as an organization and You've.

[A]

Seen the bottom fall out, as you're alluding to Justin, when guys have gotten hurt now with the current version of the Clippers and these younger players have had to step into minutes. They would love a Musa Diabate type who would come in and do lots of stuff, some errantly, but enough interesting to kind of keep things moving and bring energy. I can't even say that of the. The young players that they have that they don't really even give the Clippers a boost at all.

[B]

You got to find somebody, you got to find guys on the fringes. The Lakers have done a good job of that. But if you're going to be a top heavy organization, you have to find a way of manufacturing talent on the fringes in order to turn into contributors. Because the gap just is what it is at this point. Do you guys like anybody on this roster? Like, are you a Conan guy?

[C]

Not really. I never have been. I mean, that was one. As the draft approached, I remember there was intel swelling up where people were just like. Because he was. He was a transfer who was sort of hiding in plain sight on a Power 5 last year where at the end of the cycle, I remember people were just like, wow, look at this. But you would watch him. Yeah, you'd watch him. It's just utter chaos. His tape was utter chaos. But then you'd see. I always bring up javale because he just absolutely reminds me of Javale. And if he gets to that outcome, you know, God bless deville. He was on, you know, some really good teams with the warriors, but. And found ways to sort of control the calamity of his game. I think that's the mission that, that Niederhauser is on. I really like Kobe Sanders. I know that it's been sort of a joke lately. He's on a team that is asking him to do more than he's probably ready to do at this point. But I think that he has potential as a catch and shoot guy. I think he's a high IQ player. I think that's just the fact that he's even, you know, they are desperate for people to play. But he's gotten this opportunity right now, I think speaks to the fact that he has something going on. It's just. I don't know that he's ready to help the Clippers in the way they need right now.

[B]

Right. Number 29, then the new York Knicks out of the basement, but just slightly.

[A]

Congratulations.

[B]

They're on the first floor. They're on like the entry level. Like, they're just.

[A]

Yeah, it's a split level. Right.

[B]

I know the guys on this team. Like, I know Huck Purdy has had moments. I know that Colic has had moments, including recently. I think he played pretty well and in the cup game just the other day. And so, like, I feel like we.

[A]

Treat Tyler Kolek with kid gloves. Well, it's like he does literally anything and we pat him on the head. It's like, nice job, buddy.

[C]

What's your deal?

[A]

Can you tell me, Tyler Cole?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I don't, I'm not sure certain young.

[C]

Players that you choose to just like, aim your poop gun at all the time. I'm just like, Tyler Colic. Do I expect him to be first team all NBA? No. I mean, is he a playoff starter? No, he's somebody that comes in and gives you a little burst. I repeatedly look at Knicks box scores and lineup flows and I will see. I'd be like, oh, they went on a huge run right there and it was like Kolik just gives them. There are trade offs. He has challenges. He's defensively always going to be up against it. He just, he has a kind of a 0.5 ability. I think that not many players on this Knicks like, he moves the ball. He's a ball mover.

[A]

I don't agree with that.

[C]

I do, I do.

[A]

I think he has a little too much.

[C]

I agree with myself.

[A]

I think he has a little too much aspirational TJ McConnell in him where the ball kind of sticks with him a little too long. You know, you're out here scanning box scores and game flows. I'm out here crunching tape. Kyle, we are not the same. You know, I'm watching the title.

[C]

I never do one or the other. Just to be clear. Yeah, no. When he, when he, when he, I find that he gets them, that their offense lubricated in a way, I don't, I don't think that he's a harmful sort of deterrence what they do.

[A]

I don't think he's harmful. I just think he is a guard of a certain size who to me is not an impact scorer to me who can be picked on defensively. And I've just seen him one too many times get like trapped at half court and completely smothered out of possessions. And I'm not saying he can't overcome those things. Of course, with time he could. But as far as a prospect I'm ready to invest in, this is why the Knicks are at number 29, Tyler Kolik. Is by far their most interesting prospect.

[C]

He's 24 years old.

[A]

24 years old. And even then I'm quite lukewarm at best when it comes to the Kolik experience.

[B]

The unfortunate thing is it's not going to get better for the Knicks because all of their picks belong to the Brooklyn Nets. And so I don't think they'll be drafting highly anytime soon, but it doesn't matter. So these are your guys. This is your future.

[A]

If, I mean, just, just to play the parlor games here, you know, while we're here on the Knicks, if you had to be a hug Porti guy or a Dotier guy, which would you like to identify as going forward?

[B]

You know, I'm a dotier guy, you're a doer guy.

[A]

Big dotier Justin Barrier. We know it.

[B]

Big dotier energy.

[C]

I might lean hook 40, but I don't know where are you?

[A]

I mean, evenly split. To be honest with you, I'm looking for help. I'm looking for guidance on this matter.

[C]

What a conversation. Seriously. I mean, it's Dottie. Dotier has. I mean, he's, he's a lot longer, a longer bet grading. You know, he's three years younger than Akporti, which is kind of hard to believe. But Huck40 has shown things in. In bursts. I think there are some people that think that Daddier has a chance to be a really dynamic guy who can give you some ball movement, maybe some spacing, things like that. But no, there's just nobody, you know, Tosan Uoma is not, is not moving the needle for me tremendously.

[B]

So not so much daddy doesn't really play. But it could also be because there aren't opportunities. They need big minutes in, in New York and so. All right, we did like two minutes on the Knicks. That's probably fine. I think it's generous inward and upward. Number 28, Los Angeles Lakers. You're sensing a theme here where top heavy rosters don't have much going for them in terms of young cores. But luckily the Lakers did mine Jake Laravia from the free agency last year. Other than that, the drafting success has been pretty spotty. Dalton connect is someone we should probably talk about. Is that already over? Like he's 24 years old? LeBron was very excited to get him, but feels like he's not a rotation guy at this point. Things really haven't been right since he was traded and then untraded to the Hornets. We'll get to Mark Williams a little later.

[A]

Well, I would say it predates that the reason he was traded and then untraded to the Hornets is because he wasn't very useful to the Lakers anymore. At that point.

[B]

You could ride off of like, potential and the idea of him, but now it's almost like he's crashed down to earth at this point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do you guys feel about Connect in general? Is this like over or what's the pathway to him being anything?

[A]

It's not over. I think he. He is in the same bucket to me as many of the players that the Lakers have who fit our criteria. Jake Laravi is kind of a side. He actually plays. He strikes me as a guy who could play postseason minutes and he's not going to kill you in any particular way. He's going to hold up. Everyone else is like, I can see a path to rotation player status and that's kind of it. I think Dalton would have a really hard time advancing beyond catch and shoot. Sometimes movement shooter, guy who you hope to God doesn't get targeted enough to be a problem. He has the size where you would think he would be able to hold up better, but he's also like a half step slower than you might want him to be for a player like that. So he just, he falls into this. This mixed zone where he's neither quite as good a shooter as you want him to be, or holding up quite as well defensively as you want him to. And if he can resolve either of those things, I think there's a place for him. He just has to have the chance to do it.

[C]

I think his college sample at the end, he was a five year guy, as everybody knows, an interesting player. As a guy who emerged late, he was really, really effective on the ball as an older player in a pretty good conference. But I think some of the dings and I watched this a lot from watching him in college was Rick Barnes would get so mad that he would almost have an aneurysm. He would scream at him because he just doesn't see the floor super well. So I think a lot of the. The sample of him scoring a ton of points and the frustrations of him not seeing the floor, not seeing things as a facilitator, you're like, okay, that's probably unlikely. Then he gets to the NBA. And I think the narrative kind of JJ is probably a really unique person to be on your case early in his career in a way that I could see it being tough on his confidence in a way that is really tough to come back from, you know, because, you know, obviously they tried to get rid of him, but you started to hear murmurs about him. Things carrying over from. From what the concerns were when he was still in college of, like, not seeing the floor. The game's just a little too fast for him. And then you start to see the shooting isn't there to hold him up as the thing that he's leaning back on. I mean, even. Even spotting up this year, 31.6%, which is just not good enough. He really is a prime guy. I know we talked on our last episode about players that probably need a change of scenery. I think he needs a new lease on life really, really badly.

[A]

The JJ part of that is interesting because it's one of the things that NBA players respect the most, is the stuff that they can't do. Like, if they couldn't do it, then they're like, oh, my God, they're clearly tapping into something important. JJ's done all the stuff you would ask Dalton connect to do, and he's a perfectionist on top of it. And so the idea that you would fall at all short of the standard that he would set as a player and now a coach, you could see how he would find his way into the doghouse.

[B]

Yeah, it's odd how that doesn't trickle down. You expect that you would want your coach to be in the mold of who you are as a player, but if anything, they often are harder on those guys because they can't do things in the same exact way that you did them. And so you really don't have that, like, learned experience of, like, figuring this thing out. It's more probably muscle memory and just how you do things. Instinctual. I mean, Chauncey Billupson and Scu Henderson or something I'm very familiar with, he was pretty hard on him to start with, in part because Chauncey was. I mean, we're to talk about him now, but, like, he was a genius on the floor. He just sees things in ways that people don't.

[A]

I think the ideal developmental pairings, honestly, sometimes are the interlocking ones where the coach is a former point guard, but the player is a big, right? So it's like you understand the angle of how to set that guy up and where. Like, to. Where to tell him to go as a point guard. But you're not just constantly harping on your own point guard to do the exact things you used to.

[C]

That's why I think Chris Paul has been really good throughout his career working with younger bigs because I think that he can teach Them that like, this is where our jobs overlap. This is where you need to help out the person that's doing this job, whereas he's not like standing over you like a piano teacher telling you to move your fingers a certain way. You know, I didn't have that experience. I know it sounded like I did. I did drop out of piano lessons though, because I hated it. But no, I mean, I think something else that is tough for, for Dalton is just the developmental oxygen. I feel like so much of. So much of development is like putting a player in a position to problem solve something. Not necessarily like cracking the whip and just saying, like, do it this way, but it's letting them have the discovery, have the moment of discovery. And if you think about the like developmental oxygen that's going on with the Lakers or that's present in the Lakers, you think you got LeBron James, you think you got Luka. Doncha choose. Whole, whole, whole existence is like, you know, everything that you do is in the little moment when I'm done what I'm doing, and you need to be very good in that little moment that I've carved out for you. There's not a lot of space to discover and explore. So really tough. It doesn't mean connect's gonna connect it all and put it all together, but I definitely think the Lakers is probably right now the toughest place for him to figure it out.

[B]

That's a good question. I'm trying to think of young players who have thrived next to Luca. It typically is bigs like I think of lively early on.

[A]

I mean, I think there's a reason the guys who have really popped are more the like young veteran types. They've had a little time to find their seasoning in the league to figure out what it is that they do well. And then they come to play with Luka and they can be lob threats, they can be shooters, they can be P.J. washington. Right. It's like not guys who are totally over the hill, but are in that kind of early prime to prime stage. I think is the. Is the ideal teammate for him. And you could probably say the same thing about LeBron tracing back. I think what's hard to suss out is teams with Luka and LeBron tend to not have a lot of young players because they traded for veterans, because they're trying to advance, because those guys are so good that it's not like they're bringing in the best possible prospects to grow with them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But if you're, you know, usually yeah.

[B]

If your superstar knows who he is at a. When he's a rookie.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

It's hard for those other guys around him to really find out who they are because they need to be a certain type of player completely. La Ravia. We should mark as the first rotation player on our list thus far. So congratulations.

[A]

Kolik is in the rotation mostly.

[B]

Sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would say not the entire season. Whereas Laravia was a mainstay. True. So we'll give the nod to Jake. Just give him something other than that, you know, some riff raff. Are you a.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Are you an Audu Therio guy?

[C]

Riff raff. I don't. I don't buy that. Justin.

[B]

You're a big Nick Smith Jr guy.

[C]

No, I used to be.

[A]

Actually do like Nick Smith. You know what? As far as guys who had a chance because of injuries and came in and did their thing, I think Nick Smith Jr. Acclimated himself well to being a Laker.

[B]

He won a game for them.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

Nick smith's still only 21 years old. He's. He's absolutely a lie. The quintessential lie detector test guy. If you ask Nick Smith, you'd be like, are you better than Austin Reeves? You'd be like, absolutely. I am like, he. He's one of those guys who can do a lot of things. It's just the efficiency's never quite gotten there. It's. It's the. It's the score in a point guard's body who can't quite ascend the efficiency. That's just. He's fallen into that tough class. You have to really, really be able to call your way out of it. A do. The arrow, man, I. I do like him. I mean, the thing about a do, if you were going to forecast a player who could add something and not really have huge ambition that would disrupt a competitive team. A Duthiro. And this is a tweet that I had that got on a Lakers broadcast that. But I really meant it was a Duthiro would dive into a vat of sulfuric acid to maybe get a deflection. The dude is an absolute maniac. Throws his body around. An incredible athlete. Super. Has the potential to be super, super disruptive. Just a hustle play guy and I think attacks the rim with a vengeance. Like I could see over the course of the year. Granted, he's. You got to keep his role pretty limited, but I think he has some positives for sure.

[B]

It's a good tweet.

[A]

Gotta say, quality tweet.

[B]

I'd rt that I'd throw it on.

[A]

A Lakers broadcast if I were running.

[C]

One shots to whoever did that. I forgot.

[A]

Oh, and we should also say, just for SEO reasons, Bronnie James is a player on this team.

[B]

I was gonna ask. Can I ask an actual Bronnie James question without it becoming like toxic love one. Is he an NBA player like on any other team? Is he a rotation player? Is he a deep bench guy? Is he more of a G league guy? Like, give me a sense of where Bronnie is right now.

[A]

I think he still needs a G league progression.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Again, if. If he were coming in and the model for him in terms of the prospect watching was like a Davion Mitchell type defender. Right. Can he be an aggressive in your shorts, pick you up, full court kind of guy and that would allow his offense to come along more slowly? I just don't think he's been that. And some of that is the size discrepancy between these other, like bulldog guards. Those are players who, despite how tall they stand, can defend people like 4 or 5 inches taller than them. I just don't see that with Bronnie at all. And so, yes, he can theoretically apply some pressure against opposing backup point guards, but how valuable is that? If you can't make shots actively, don't take shots. And then you're also just kind of this, like, for no fault of his own, this like walking spotlight. Right. I think it's a really hard way to develop for any player, especially for him on this particular team. So, yes, if you traded him to one of the worst rosters in the league, maybe he would play more, but I'm not sure he would really justify those minutes with how he's playing right now.

[C]

I understand why they didn't do this, but in a perfect world, if you were going to create like a path for him, that makes sense. You alluded to it a little bit here is. I think he would have just played in college longer. And I think whenever you. Whenever you compare to him or just at all, I. And then that, that was what I really was hoping that they would do for him is send him to a Yukon or send. Send him to somewhere with a big, you know, mother bear kind of coach who can protect him a little bit, and I thought Hurley would have been perfect. But I just think when you compare him age wise to what he has already been through, you know, 21 years old, and then you look at somebody like a Jamal Shed or a. Or a Davion, players that had the chance to get into college, he just needed his lot, his basketball life to be quiet for a while because, you know, everything around him was just. I don't. I'm of two minds about it. I'm. I. And I. It's funny because I think of my own son now, like, what I would do to protect him and things like that. I'm like, I would just want him to have some quiet and get the. Get the eye of Sauron of the basketball world off of him a little bit. I think that's what he needs. So I don't think that it means necessarily that he's going to turn into what you're going to say, but I think he's absolutely got to be a ball pressure guy. He's probably got to shoot 40% from 3.

[B]

Yeah. Could have been a champion at Yukon. Now he's just a global celebrity.

[A]

And that's the question. Even if you did put him in a college situation where the coach could protect him more, and there's no doubt college programs are better at that kind of noise quieting than any NBA team would be. I wonder if you are LeBron James Jr. If that is kind of the exception to the rule that wherever you go, no matter who you play, for how long you play there, the developmental track would have been better, but I kind of think it would have been loud no matter where he. He went.

[C]

I. I think winning was the thing, was the reason that I thought of them in particular. I think you go somewhere with a great program, not somewhere where he just gets heavy. You know, fire holes, fire hose, pick and roll reps, like, I think somewhere where he could just kind of fall in line and have some space where the program itself is big. Anyway, we've talked a lot about Ronnie James.

[B]

Yeah, well, that was just the appetizer because we're going to get to the good stuff now. Number 27, the Sacramento Kings. And I don't know if you guys have plugged into this, but the Maximi Raynaud Hive.

[C]

Okay, Maxime Reynaud, Maxime Renault.

[B]

Say magnet Feek. Am I right?

[C]

Anybody here got Reynolds, but he's come up, baby.

[B]

I don't know if you guys saw the game the other day, but 14 points, seven rebounds, almost two assists over his past seven.

[A]

Yeah, he's got. I mean, he's got really good touch. I think he's been downright respectable in Demona Sabonis's absence, like, really done the thing. The problem is he is of the build, where he makes Chad and Wemby look like Arnold and Carl Weathers in Predator like it's just so lanky and thin and it's so easy to budge him off.

[C]

You think Chad is heavier than. Than Reynold?

[A]

I think so.

[C]

Nah. But maybe it's Reynolds got a little more meat.

[A]

You know what, maybe it's the purple. Maybe it's an optical illusion he just.

[C]

Lets throw to the meat monitor. Wish we'd done that.

[A]

He feels so wiry. And look, honestly, regardless of how thin or wiry he is, thank God he's here because like this is a team that is so bad and so sad and so like otherwise absent any kind of young promise whatsoever. So shout out to Maxime Renault.

[C]

I like Renault. I mean he. Within reason. I think he has. He has an opportunity to sort of aspire to the Olenek Sarichi kind of a.

[A]

Of a.

[C]

Of a tier of a player where it's just like you don't do anything. Lights out. Outstanding. But you're pretty good. You're a legitimate. I mean he's like a 611, 7ft tall. Has. I think he'll eventually be able to stretch the four pretty decently. Something sneaky about Reynold though that people maybe might not have seen if they didn't get to see him in college a lot is he's kind of in the got some shit to him club in a way that you wouldn't expect. You, you look at him and you think the stereotypic it's like French big guy probably shoots, tries to shoot threes, wants to shoot threes. And, and whether or not he does that well he'll. He'll post you up. He goes to the rim, he attacks the rim.

[B]

He does.

[C]

He gives you a little bit more than stretch shooting and I think that's going to keep him around in the league.

[B]

All the French guys, they kind of want to mix it up.

[A]

It's really a boom. I mean they're fighting. Look. They all. Not only do they go to the got some shit to them club. Was that. Was that the.

[C]

What's the French word for shit? Can we get the. He's got some Le sheet the shit.

[A]

Well, I mean they've got some Nicholas Batum punching dudes in the nuts vibes to them sometimes, you know, it's just like it's a cultural energy that you know. Sometimes the French try to act like they're above it but they've got that fire in them.

[C]

Mia day. Mia day.

[A]

Are you just Google translation?

[C]

Mirror day? Is that how you would say mirrored? Right.

[A]

I literally can't See your screen. So I don't M e r D e mird that tracks to me.

[C]

He's got some mirrored.

[B]

Not really. Yeah, well, if you have any sort of stress to your game at the 5, I think you're gonna have a place in the league. People are gonna give you rotation minutes or put you on a bench and hope that you can hit some shots down the road there. So he's interesting to me. I think the unfortunate thing is Nick Clifford, a guy that I know you were high on coming into the draft, just doesn't seem like he's got much of a run. And when he has, like, the shooting just has not been there, which is unfortunate. Cause he was an older Rookie. He's already 23. Devin Carter, also on this roster, also 20. What a bummer. These are guys without much. As much Runway as some of the other guys we're going to talk about later on this list. And so it's kind of a bummer. You feeling bad as a Clifford stockholder?

[C]

Well, no, I don't. I haven't flinched at all.

[A]

I like it, like, when he plays. I like him.

[B]

You're diamond hands.

[C]

Diamond hands?

[A]

Is that the thing? What are you talking about?

[B]

Unshakable.

[A]

Yeah. Wow.

[C]

I don't know. That one went past me.

[B]

It's also Rockefeller. Sorry. More of a crucial role.

[A]

You really do. You're translating something. I just don't know what it is exactly. Most of the time.

[C]

Yeah, we'll get a. We'll get a Justin translation on that one. No, I mean, if you're. If you're gonna be, you know, if you're gonna deprive you young guys of minutes, you know, you want. You want to have winning veteran players ahead of them. Right. To justify that. That makes a ton of sense. Yeah. So I'm being sarcastic. If anybody couldn't tell he's using blue text. No, yeah, I. I like Clifford. I haven't flinched at all on that. Carter I wasn't super high on, but I understand. Energetic guy who's going to be able to, you know, ideally hit shots. I haven't checked in on Carter in a little while, but Clifford, I absolutely haven't budged. He just does so many things, like, I think he'll fit in somewhere.

[A]

He's a real defender. I don't know where he slots in offensively quite yet. And that's the area of his game where I love everything that's happening in terms of defense and energy. And then offensively, he's just so off balance all the Time. Like, it's like he's catching himself by surprise with a lot of the stuff he attempts to do. I don't know what to do with a player like that, but I'm happy to try. Like, I'd be happy for the Kings to just give him more of an opportunity to find that footing.

[B]

Awesome. At summer league, did he win MVP or like, come mvp? He was definitely on one of the. The lists that they put out there.

[C]

He kicked ass at summer league.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think there's a list of like 75 players. You could tell me won the summer league MVP and I would believe you.

[B]

Josh Selby definitely on that list.

[A]

Oh, there's. There's no doubt. Summer league legend.

[B]

Yeah. Glenn Rice Jr also MVP voted for him that year. Let's go, baby.

[A]

That was a nepo vote.

[C]

I watched Glenn Rice eat candy at a UFL game recently. I was sitting behind him. I was starstruck. Glen Rice was there.

[A]

Jujubes or what was I was gonna say? He seems like a trolley bright crawlers man.

[C]

I feel like he was eating M&M's. I forgot the candy. I absolutely should have remembered if I was so wrong.

[B]

You're just, what, typecasting him as a trolley guy? He feels a specific type of guy.

[A]

He feels like a gummy man to me.

[C]

I was getting Trolley's gummy worms.

[A]

Right. Specifically a sour gummy worm.

[C]

Last time you ate a gummy worm, lower one of those in your mouth.

[B]

It's not a.

[A]

Is that the only way to eat one?

[B]

You shouldn't eat them in a public. Yeah, if you don't want to get your hands all dusty, I guess. That's salty.

[A]

Like, you're more evolved. I'm just getting in there, you know, I'm not messing around.

[B]

All right, number 26. And if you're listening to this on Spotify, you should probably maybe click onto the video portion of this because we're going to be putting up all the guys on that qualify for each team up on the screen here. Thanks to Victoria and Isaiah and Ben for figuring all this out. But number 26, the Boston Celtics, the first team on my list where I marked multiple guys. So before it was just one guy. Walsh, rotation player, Minot, rotation player, and then Ugo Gonzalez.

[A]

See, the question is, are all of them rotation players or are all of them collectively like 1.5 rotation players?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think Jordan Walsh has probably established him the most out of that trio in terms of the consistency when he's been given the opportunity. They just all have had their moments in a way that I think has been great. But as far as like, are you expecting them to be full time rotation guys from this point forward? I think we're still waiting to see on kind of all three of them.

[C]

Yeah, I had, I had. Are we saying Ugo? Are we agreeing on Ugo? Sure, we're agreeing on Ugo. Ugo, Walsh. Those are the two guys that I marked as had the potential to be. Potential to be top 100 players. Potential to be kind of.

[A]

You know, Walsh has been pretty awesome lately. Like, he. I mean, he's really. We are kind of all living in his world at this particular moment. Just steps into Celtics games and wins them. Okay. But yeah, so I'm with you on that on those lines. Like, they do feel like guys who could crack that kind of threshold.

[C]

I've said this before, but this is one of my favorite Walsh anecdotes that I thought revealed a lot about his personality was before his rookie season, he was getting interviewed because he had a reputation as a defender. And at Boston media days, they were like, well, you know, what goes into being a good perimeter defender? And the first thing that he said was, know where the officials are. So I was like, and if you watch Walsh, he's a mega pain, like canker sore. Mega pain in it. Canker sore on your ass. I don't think that's possible. But if it were possible, it would be Jordan Walsh.

[B]

Granted, it's called something different, but. Yeah.

[C]

Yes, it is. Maybe we'll get sponsored. No. Yeah. It's always just been about him getting those things on the floor by doing other things because we knew he could defend. But yeah, it's just shooting the ball. That's been kind of the thing they've wanted him, needed him to do, to bring that stuff.

[B]

When established teams have to go and like dig through the crates of like second round guys and take flyers on guys, it's always funny because the guys they end up picking are ones that are in the image of the head coach. It's like really to their preference because they have an established structure, but they're like trying to feed into that. And you know that Joe Maz, like, loves all three of these guys. Like, if you're thinking of like the qualities of Ugo, Walsh and Minot, it's like one, could they be talked into doing jiu jitsu with. With Maze? Sure. And two is they got that dog in them. And all three of these guys have many a dog in them.

[A]

I think the, the paradox of having that dog in you. And playing for Joe Missoula is sometimes he does love you, sometimes he despises you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, sometimes the dogs, they just, they just get into a fight out in the yard together and they need to be separated. And guess what, Josh Minot, you're going to the bench right now, but two games from now you're going to play instrumental minutes in a huge stretch. Just kind of the way it goes around there.

[C]

I had an interesting stat about Josh Mynot. I really enjoy basketball indexes, defensive filters. They have a couple different, you know, proprietary kind of things like. And one of the role versatility is one of the ones that they do that I like to go check and under for it players in this field, we'll call it U24. Among those players, number one among in highest matchup versatility on defense was Dyson Daniels. But number two was Josh Mina on a decent minute sample. So I think that's somebody who you were gonna. If you were gonna argue what he was gonna provide a couple years ago. I think he's are. He's proving that he's on the track to. To be. To be that guy.

[A]

And that's where someone like Ugo is more pick up the guards full court and Josh Minot is sick them on basically anybody that needs to be sicked.

[C]

It's.

[A]

It's a great versatility to have like they all do have their pockets of being best against slightly different kinds of opposition, which is nice.

[B]

So if the Celtics broke the rotation player barrier, we're now getting to the guys who we have to start to consider in our blue chip rankings. We're going to go to the bucks at number 25 and they actually have a guy and Ryan Rollins. What type of guy do they have? I think is an open question. But if we actually did most improved player and like went by the letter of the law and not just give it to, I don't know, guys who score a little bit more. The Tyrese Maxeys who jumped from like 20 to 25 points over a season in their third year even though they were lottery picks. I think Rollins would fit that last year. So he can. He was converted from a two way last March, which is crazy. So it hasn't even been a year on a full contract. And then last year he averaged 6 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists. He's up to 176 and 4 on pretty stellar efficiency. But I think the question is ultimately like how much of a guy is he? Like do you see him as a. We have him in the top 100 right now we do. But is he like, without Giannis there, Is he just kind of an average guy as opposed to like a guy's guy?

[A]

A guy's guy. I mean, what defines a guy's guy to you?

[C]

The Tom Selleck Award. Is that a dated reference?

[B]

Just drives a Ferrari? Yeah. No, just like a guy who could stand on his own, not like a supplement to a star player, although that's helpful in its own right. But like a guy who could potentially, you would consider him for an all star bid down the road.

[A]

I think he would need to prove more right It. We need to drive winning a little bit more. Right now. He's in a zone where because he plays on a team with a star in Giannis Antetokounmpa, sometimes healthy, sometimes not, we pay attention to what he's doing. If he were doing a similar thing for the Charlotte Hornets, a team of just like, much less focus and attention, I don't think we'd be talking about him in the same way, fair or not. And so I think he benefits in somewhat like the Bucks need him to be this good so badly that we tend to focus on a little bit more. That's not to say he can't eventually be, you know, maybe like a borderline all star level player. I would, I wouldn't rule that out, given what we've seen. He gets into the paint all the time, plays with a ton of defensive intensity, and he's now like two years running of making threes really consistently this year, shooting like six a game, which is not nothing in terms of sample.

[C]

And shooting him in a lot of different ways. I mean, he, he, he can create them for himself really well. You know, he's 40% in ISO from threes this year. He's 45 and a half on his spot ups and in the pick and roll. He's at nearly 40% on. You like to have that gravity at the point of attack if you're going to be that guy, a guy's guy. And there's really, if you look at the teams below this, I think this is the first player that we've hit so far on the list and the pool of players who can, who can do these types of things credibly and consistently.

[A]

If you. He's one of the least accomplished players in a league I would like to see in the league. I would like to see an entire offense built around, like, put him with a real lob finisher and actual shooting at every position of guys who are consistent and healthy. I just would love to see what Ryan Rollins could do because he's just blown away. Every possible expectation to this point.

[B]

I mean, he'd be great on the Wizards right now. A guy that they kind of tossed aside and it made sense because he finished his career there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Weird terms.

[A]

Difficult situation.

[B]

Yeah. And so. But like, that's the exact type of guy. I think that they would want something, someone who's a little bit more stable to like, build around some of these, like, more vital, volatile, high upside sort of prospects that they've accumulated. We'll get to them later. Did you guys have him in the maybe category of your blue chips, or is he not quite there?

[A]

I think he's a maybe. Maybe feels fair.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But the maybe is a long list.

[B]

Okay. Your maybes list is like.

[A]

It's a lot of. It's a lot of guys.

[C]

I was going to say it's. It's too deep a field to get into the top 15. No, he's. He's kind of the. I. I couldn't get quite down far. He. He didn't make it high up enough on the list for me.

[B]

Yeah. Anybody else here worth talking about? Andre Jackson Jr. Is still on this roster.

[A]

I wish he was worth talking about.

[C]

About. Painful. I believed in him. I thought that he added enough connectivity and things like that, but he just. He hasn't been able to overcome his challenges.

[B]

Too quirky. There's an antetokounmpo who technically qualifies because he's a two way player. Didn't know he was on a two way.

[A]

Alex.

[B]

Alex.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Good for him.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Good work if you can get it. All right. Why don't we take a break and then we'll come back and talk about the rest of these teams in part one. All right. Number 24 on our list, the Indiana Pacers. Tough one for Rob, tough one for Jerus Walker. I know we just talked about in the last pod, so I don't really want to beat a dead horse here, but he stinks, and it's unfortunate.

[A]

He doesn't stink. He just, like. I don't know. Just. I. Maybe he does stink. I'm just gonna defend him. Like, I don't have an explanation for what's happening other than he's just not good and stable enough as a player.

[B]

Did you like him coming out of the draft?

[C]

No. And I've talked a lot with. With, you know, people who think in that space about this to try to figure out what's going on or what. There. There's a pattern among guys. I think I mentioned Patrick Williams last time because I think he's similar. I, I just think there's a body type of a big traditional power forward that we really want to push him out to the, you know, we want to push him out to the three point line. And it's just that, that in between game, you know, being near the basket, I, I feel like in the 90s and 2000s, I feel like Jarris might have had a little bit easier time maybe. But I just think that getting from point A to point B like that about somebody like P.J. washington, as somebody who we talk a lot, we, we really value as like being able to wheel into post ups. You don't have to outsource that stuff. You can, you can attack a mismatch one on one. But he just, he's never been able to shoot the ball super well, not really consistently. Even worse than ever this year. And he never has really been able to. He's a high turnover guy, not a great decision maker. And they like this season they've been pushing him to play the three, which I think has been, you know, in the past he's been a four. I just, I don't think that he's quite had the perimeter game to put everything together to justify it. And I think it's. I don't know, maybe, maybe he needs to go the other direction. He needs to go into another, another team that pushes him, lets him be near the basket more.

[A]

He will occasionally have those games where he just hits like a crazy step back three or makes a move on the perimeter. That, that again kind of forces you to believe that he could be this sort of prototype athletic forward. But then they got Pascal Siakam and they didn't need him to become Pascal Siakam anymore. And so he does suffer from not being able to just like learn through all the mistakes. But he's also shown to this point, I don't think a lot of reason to think that he would be a star level prospect on the other side of those mistakes. He could be better than this if you gave him the opportunity to work through it. I just don't know that it would be worth all of the squeeze.

[B]

This season's a tough one because if you're looking at him from another organization and saying, oh, second draft guy, right? Let's take a flyer on him, see if like there's any juice left in there. He really has the opportunity to play through most of his mistakes with the Pacers because half of the team is on the injured list and like, even if Siakam's there, like, there's got to be minutes at the forefront to play his natural position. All this other stuff. And so, like, I don't know what the situation is where someone would look at him and be like, oh, we could draw out that player we thought in there.

[A]

Yeah. So I think there's a lot of that with the Pacers right now. And Ben Matheran's been hurt and when he's been healthy, he's played quite well. Yes, this has not been the most gleaming Ben Shepard season in the world. Another guy I really like and believe in and just, just has not been able to shoot well enough. And also it's like a good defender but not a great defender. And so there's times where he just gets in foul trouble, isn't quite mobile enough for certain matchups. That's always tricky other than that, like, Isaiah Jackson's just kind of back and healthy relatively, and platooning at the 5, and that's fine. But there's not a lot for. Not in terms of players who are actively on the Pacers roster right now. I don't know who you're projecting is making some kind of huge leap in the near future future.

[C]

Halliburton spins the Pacers merry go round in such a way that it can be difficult to evaluate this. Like, and I think that, that, that is might be partly what's going on here with like a, you know, because Shepard, I thought, really benefited from the momentum of what they did and the types of shots. I definitely think he is a types of shots, heavy contingent type of a player. So. And this roster, you know, sticking with the merry go round thing, they just don't. They haven't had anybody that can really get it going. So I think what we've seen is just, just stilted out of rhythm, guys out of position, doing maybe more than they probably should be doing. And I think honestly that's more Halberton's age out of this group. But I just think his impact overall for this team is, is so glaring and I think his absence is really strained a lot of these guys.

[A]

I think shepherd is a great call for that in particular because not only does he benefit from having a playmaker like that, but he benefits from having his role really narrowed. He's not a Jarris Walker. Let's see everything you can do type. It's, let's make you Danny Green and like just kind of do this very specific thing. So if he is on the carousel. He's not even like the horse. He's the little bench that you sit on and feel very safe and secure. And right now it's not spinning.

[B]

So what would Matheren be in that whole setup? Is he the guy that's like taking your change and like, pulling the tickets?

[C]

I said merry go round. You said carousel. I mean, either one. I just.

[A]

Aren't they the same thing?

[C]

Merry go round, A carousel.

[A]

No, wait. What is a merry go round if not a carousel?

[C]

I mean, a carousel is a thing that you were talking about, like something that is self propelled, like electric. I'm talking about like Haliburn on the electricity. Okay, well, there you go. Okay, well, I'm just saying on a playground, a thing that needs to be manually, like.

[A]

I see what you're saying.

[C]

So Ben Mather in playground. Other than lately.

[A]

Like, I maintain that they're synonyms, but, you know.

[B]

Okay, so Ben Mather, in 13 games post injury, 18 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists. So he's played well, as Rob was saying when he's been available. The problem is he hasn't been gangbusters in a way that you'd expect. Like, there's so much opportunity for him. Just live his best life and he hasn't had a lot of those moments. I guess nobody's really watching. So this is a real tree falls in the forest situation. I do worry if he's going to fall into the case with Josh Giddey this past summer, Jonathan Kaminga, where he's successful to a certain degree, he probably sees himself in a certain way. But the money's not going to be there for a team that already sees itself in another way. Yeah, the Pacers are a Halliburton driven team and he's kind of ancillary and he was helpful in certain regards, but they're like, do you need that? If you're overpaying for that, I would draw a hard line on him. Restricted free agency. And I wonder if that gets messy as a result.

[A]

Can the Pacers draw that many more hard lines, though? You know, they've already lost Miles Turner, the center rotation. I mean, I don't think it's gone great. And I don't think anyone necessarily envisions Jay Huff and Isaiah Jackson as being the long term solution at the 5%, though.

[B]

Have you seen those block numbers?

[A]

I mean, yeah, it's fine. Maybe he's getting the block numbers as he does.

[B]

He's climbing those mountains, I guess, one carabiner at a time.

[C]

But like this big study Abroad interview.

[A]

But like this is a team that does need to hold on to its talent. Like they're gonna have the influx with potentially some draft choices, but they need to hold on to guys like Ben Matherin too. Right.

[B]

Because they can't replace him. It will be tough very soon because they have the draft pick next year. Thankfully.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But after that you expect them to be so competitive that like when are they going to draft that high league again?

[C]

Yeah, once they get Kam Boozer, this is all going to make sense, fit them perfectly. No, Ma Matherin is just. I, I don't know that we're ever going to see him ascend beyond spark plug second unit. Maybe six man guy. I just don't know that his. He can score in the pick and roll, but it's just like if you ask him to do much more than that, I think you just start to see where the seam. The seam start to show.

[B]

So Cam Jones, Johnny Furfy, you're a Furphy guy.

[C]

The lesser Furphy. I really do. I think another guy got some shit to him, Cam Jones recently for the first time and I don't even know how long got upgraded to questionable. So that's great. Older guard from Marquette. I think he's just one of those older kind of gives you a lot of things, doesn't give you a ton. But I expect, I think we'll see more of Cam Jones once we get the full strength Pacers.

[B]

Okay. Denver Nuggets number 23. Unfortunately for the previous front office regime, they find themselves in the bottom 10 of this ranking. Even though they built Nikola Jokic's future around some of these players, I would say more successful than I thought they would be at this point last year because Brown is a guy certainly has been out this year, but he clearly plays a role next to Yokesh. He plays it very well. Got extended and got paid handsomely to do so. Peyton Watson showing some stuff. Definitely in the starting lineup now that they've dealing with some injuries and so we should talk about that. But other than that we could talk about Spencer Jones coming out of nowhere and shooting the hell out of the ball.

[C]

Lord knows we don't want to do that. We'll get Rob going.

[B]

There was a real like beyond us. There was a real Spencer Jones discourse happening that I saw. Yeah.

[A]

Can you summarize, like what were people getting into it?

[B]

Some people thought he sucked, some people didn't.

[A]

Classic.

[B]

I guess if you're really drilling down on what we were talking about was the same thing. But like you know, Strother has been awful this year. John Holmes doesn't play, so it's hard to really evaluate him. But like, like, I mean, they have Valentuna, so he wasn't going to play. But like, that's a guy that I think they had high hopes for when they drafted him. And so kind of similar to what they've been in the couple years where it's like, oh, one or two guys, but not the whole second wave of young guys that's going to carry them into a new era.

[A]

Yeah, and Strother's been hurt too, we should say, especially for a shooter, like a back injury is maybe the single worst thing you can get. Sure. I like, not that anyone on this team needs excuses among this young core, but I my problem with having them at 23 is Christian Brown is just better than many of the players. Many of the best prospects on the teams we have ranked above the Nuggets.

[B]

So you are actually an outlier in this regard. You had them at 19, Kyle and I had them 23 and 24.

[A]

And I'm saying that Christian Brown, as you said, has been hurt before. That he was having just a objectively bad season by his new standards. But the new standards are telling. Like he made such a jump last year and I believe in that jump, that that to me is unquestionably a guy. He is a Finals championship validated role player and since then has only grown in his ability to do all kinds of other supplementary stuff. So I really like Christian Brown. I think the Nuggets should be a little higher. I think you guys are. Are being mean to Christian Brown and Peyton Watson for no reason whatsoever.

[C]

Yeah, you might be right about that. I mean, I had three guys on this list. I did want to note that Jaron Holmes has kind of been kicking ass in the G league. He's like 20, 23 assists a block and a half and 37 and a half from three in a lot of games. So they might eventually get something from him. But I think there is an interesting thing going on here with there are weighted, you know, and this is the proven versus unproven thing where even among like, you know, All Star, even among all Stars, they're not all weighted the same. Even among MVPs, which I know we'll get to that or MVP level players, I think they're not all weighted the same. And the fact that it might not be super sexy and it might not upside is an alluring drug that can get intoxicate and make people be like, go Go and chase that in the top 10, but maybe in the like 10. We see this in the draft, in the 10 through the 20 range. You might just get a really stable guy who can play for a playoff team. And he's not a star, but he'll do a lot of things. And I think Christian Brown is that. So I can understand the argument for having them higher because that is an underrated thing in the. In when we're trying to just project upside and things like that.

[A]

You're right, though, that what the Nuggets don't have is anything resembling an upside play. There's no guy on this roster just like waiting for his time and when he gets it, he's going to pop. Think a lot of people, some of us included, were hoping Peyton Watson could be that kind of player.

[C]

People thought Strother had a chance.

[A]

Maybe so. And. And maybe Strother still will. I think Peyton Watson has proven to what you were talking about, Justin. He's maybe a better fit with the starters in a lot of ways. I mean, as would anyone playing alongside Nicola Jokic. But he's looked quite good there.

[B]

Can he be bouncy athlete, rim protector, shooter Christian Brown? Like, can he be more in that mold than perhaps what we thought, which was like a high level rotation, not quite star guy, but like a foundational player? I wouldn't put Brown in that category, for instance, like for. I probably wouldn't have extended him at the number that they gave him because I think he's very good at what he does. But I think that role and that type is a little bit more replaceable than what you would find from other guys. Even like the ideal version of Shroud, just because of the shooting. Right. Watson might be just a serviceable rotation player. I don't know what you would pay for that because there's still so much promise there. He'd probably want to get paid pretty handsomely this summer. And they're already up against some cap stuff. Yeah. The fact that he looks like a real deal rotation player is something, especially because he's competing for minutes so much these days with all these other guys out there. And that's the one thing with the Nuggets that we should mention. Holmes is a good case study because like him not playing minutes is a result primarily, I assume, from Valentrinas being there. But is that. Is that a nice thing to have? Almost like a stop gap to not put too much on the rookies because that was their problem last year?

[C]

Sure, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Watson is Less proven. It's interesting that yeah, he and Strother, you're just kind of waiting for them to. To instill that confidence. I, I agree with what you're saying though. It's. And that that's the dilemma that they've had. They've wanted these guys to come along a little bit sooner. So, you know, the sort of, you know, whatever it is, flex seal. I think I brought this up before and tried and had the exact same thing. Right. Can't remember that. No. I think the, the veteran sort of stop gap guys have taken the pressure off and that might be the reality forever with this roster built.

[A]

Well, do we want to go one more merry go round spin on the Spencer Jones conversation? Do we. Do we want to rehash? Our rehash was apparently also kind of rehashed online.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Is that worth doing? I mean he's a young player who's act like here than where this is a great question. Unlike many of the guys we've been talking about, is playing right. Like he is an actual member of the Nuggets rotation because of these injuries, the threes, when he takes them in somewhat small volume hits at a reasonable clip. I just find a lot of his offense to be like a little vacant for my liking. And that's where I'm waiting. Cause I see the defensive physicality, I see the energy he plays with. I see the outlines of a player I shouldn't want to like. I'm just like waiting for the offense to do something that will move me. And I, I've been waiting.

[C]

I don't think your expectations are just off. I think Spencer, I think Spencer Jones. I'm not, I don't want to box him in, but I think in the situation that you're in, if you're the Nuggets, Spencer Jones is like when you put on a jacket you haven't put in a while and you're like, God damn, $5. And you're like, I can't buy a meal with that. But it's not 20 in LA. In LA, I can't buy 20% of a meal with that. But no, but you can buy yourself a coffee and it's a little spark, it's a little spunk.

[A]

It's.

[C]

Think your expectations have to be right. Rob, we've. We've argued so much about Spencer Jones. I just. He's like, you got to take him down a peg.

[A]

I just kept hearing such amazing things about Spencer Jones and I watch him and it's like, is this guy even A good defender or just an active defender?

[B]

How can you be optimistic about Watson playing, like, above rotational level, but disappointed in Jones for rising to that level?

[A]

Did he rise to rotational level?

[B]

He's in the rotation right now.

[A]

You just said it.

[C]

He's playing.

[A]

Your words. Look, that's an objective fact, Spencer. Jones is playing minutes. Is he playing them well to this.

[B]

Point, he's the flex seal.

[A]

If he's the flex seal, we're springing leaks all over the place. That's my argument.

[C]

Oh, geez. We got nowhere. I thought we were getting somewhere.

[B]

He's also shooting 45.

[C]

He's shooting the. Out of the ball. The shots that he wants. They want him to shoot. He's hit.

[A]

No, it takes, like, one shot a game.

[B]

It's a nice shot, though. It's a productive.

[A]

And guess what happens the rest time, he's on the floor. No one guards him. Nobody.

[C]

Well, maybe, you know, maybe Cam Jones or. Yeah, Yeah. I just. Maybe they need to get a little bit more out of the guys that they've invested in so that he's not. There's not so much demand on him.

[A]

Total. Totally fair.

[B]

By the way, you were the 1 highest on the Nuggets overall.

[A]

Well, that's because I like Christian Brown and Peyton Watson.

[B]

I see.

[A]

There's no question. Like, I just feel really confident about what they give you at this point, especially relative to some of the teams or in particular about the team we're about to talk about.

[B]

I was going to say, speaking of teams where we have no confidence in their young players, but somehow they fall at number 22, it's the Golden State Warriors. Brandon Pajemski, Will Richard, Jonathan Kaminga, Moses Moody. And my eyes immediately dart toward Will Richard because. Just the low maintenance of it all, like, he's just. He does what he does.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hell of efficiency. Plays good minutes, and it gets the hell out of the way.

[A]

Well, he's now, unfortunately, out of the way even more because Steve Kerr just kind of, like, yanked him out of the rotation the other night.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I mean, the. Anthony Melton is back. That's going to eat up some of those minutes. It seems like that's probably most of the culprit. But I really like Will Richard. I think. I think we're all aligned on this. This.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I like Will Richard. It's. For me. For me to explain a little bit of the rationale of how they could be up here despite us having no confidence, is in these rankings.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You also have to rank. You have to wait assets because there are some of these guys. I have different guys marked on my list as it just. I put a box next to them that just says volatile. Like they're low and volatile in the volatility index. Kaminga is really high because there are people out there, ball knowers, real Hoopers, whatever. I expect it's going to be a real Hooper brain person out there that's going to be like. Like still think he's a star. And I think that, that if. If we're talking about the rankings in terms of like, I think. I think asset value has to be a piece of the puzzle because it's going to affect the way you. A superstar player that you have a lot of confidence in, I think is going to give you positivity moving forward. I think that somebody is going to buy on him at some point and that'll give you something. It's better than nothing. I'm just saying it's better than having like, I don't know. And Kobe Sanders. Nobody's going to try. Somebody's going to trade for Kumar. You know, you're gonna get something.

[B]

I had moments too and I found myself. We'll talk about the Suns later on. But like someone like Jalen Green is a good comp where he's had big moments. And in Jalen Green's case, in the playoffs, yeah, I don't like him as a player, but how do you weigh that against a guy who's not playing guys?

[A]

Jalen Green is. I don't like Jalen Green very much. He is so much better than Jonathan Kaminga, like.

[B]

But the lows are very low.

[A]

When Jonathan Kaminga has played, he has actively made the warriors work worse on both sides of the ball.

[B]

I don't know how we've gotten to a place where I have to.

[A]

I don't know what to tell you.

[C]

Has any G league ignite player been good? Just saying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ultimately my problem with even thinking of Kuminga as an asset, I agree with you. There are people out there who still see him as a star, still see that talent, still see that pop. He's been on the market for like three years. I would think if that trade was going to manifest, it would have already. And maybe the problem is more the Golden State has held on to him. Hold hoping for that return and not settled for something that would have been acceptable.

[B]

He keeps having these moments in between the bad moments though, which is part of the problem. That he'll show that he will be bought in or sometimes there will Just be so many injuries that have moments to just explore the studio space. And he'll be like, oh, this giant athlete is just barreling down toward the rim. And I'm like, I could see where teams would be interested in that. And so at a certain point, you have to value that. I guess it depends on, like, who you are and what you value.

[A]

Can I tell you a secret? Secret? You don't have to value that. You can just watch him and observe what's happening and say, I don't want any part of that.

[C]

We didn't talk about it ahead of time. I mean, I did, you know, kind of package asset value, whether, you know, I, I kind of. That did play in.

[A]

I had zero problem with that thinking. I think that makes sense for the young course.

[B]

Yeah. To be fair, I had Przemski, Richard and Moody as guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In Kaminga, in this, like, former high lottery pick. I don't really know what the labor, I guess assets. Pretty good way to doing it. And so I think we ultimately all agree.

[A]

I think so. I think. Now, does Bajimsky agree with us? Because I think if you ask Brandon Pajemski, he might think he's a blue chip guy. To. To hear him tell it, he wants to be the next face of the Gold State warriors after Stephan Draymond retire. And this is where I. I come into my problem with the Brandon Pajemski experience, which is if he was just a normal seventh to eighth guy in a rotation that's a good player doing normal seventh, eighth guy things, if he has aspirations of that, and I think circumstantially he's been kind of forced into that role and then seems like by his own wanton ambition, that's what he's reaching for. That's where I want to stop the car and get out personally.

[B]

Shouldn't we appreciate that he thinks that way?

[A]

Like, if it helps him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But does it help him?

[B]

But if he was just like, I like going home and playing video games, like, we would be like, what the fuck is wrong with you for having hobbies.

[A]

I just want him to be Christian. Right.

[C]

We do that all the time. There's. There's. There's a very hilarious thing that you see when people, like in, like, intel process, when these guys are coming to the league where people I ant was one of them, where they'd be like, they'd be like, he doesn't like basketball. Like, he's not.

[B]

He's not in or comp yourself. Like, who do you see yourself in the league if you don't like, name a player who's like a hyper efficiency monster. It's like, oh, my God, he just wants to be Kobe. Yeah, well, what do you expect? They're 19.

[C]

Totally. I think we would be shocked. I joke about the lie detector thing and granted there are some guys who, who have more nucle confident, but I think we would. Most of these guys, I think it's sort of a mandate. If you're going to get to this level, you. You have to have that. But I don't know. But Jimsky might be a lie detector test guy also. He might just be like, I'm just as good at stuff that's possible. Yeah, seems like he feels that way.

[A]

It does seem like he, he thinks he is a really special prospect. And there have been times where I've seen a play where I'm like, I get it. Like, I see the ball movement, the connecting the shots going that day, the counter driving, all that stuff is kind of coming together. And then just like, on balance, the status quo over a 10 or 15 game stretch, there's just a lot that's more frustrating. And so that's why I say, like, I would love to see him channel his inner Christian Brown of just like getting to that point where you're ironing out some of the mistakes and then you could benefit from the best things that he does.

[B]

Number 21, Miami Heat. A lot to like here. A lot of guys that are starting to pop in this new offensive system. First and foremost, we should talk about Khalil Ware.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I find myself wondering at times if he's a star. And then at times I wonder him, like, is he just going to disappoint everybody? It's just going to be the constant tease. Kyle, do you have like, a sense of like, what his most likely outcome is at this point? Do you think he'll hit like the high end of a ceiling?

[C]

I think there's a possibility that he could flirt with top 50 in the league. I mean, I'm not ready to say all star, but I, I think he would be, you know, top 50 to 70 range. I think that's possible, and I think that's pretty good. I'm not, I'm not ready to commit to the offense being there like him. He still needs to prove to me that he can, like, consistently punish a small after like, you know, turn and like, he's, he's very effective with the lob game. I just. And I'd like to see if he's going to shoot the ball really consistently. The defensive stuff is. Is really good, like, and he's. He's a. You know, he's an obstacle. That's kind of where I would land, but I'm not ready to go to the next to those other levels. Are you guys. I mean, where are you feeling about it?

[A]

I feel similarly. I mean, I think to the extent that he will ever scrape stardom, it'll be an unconventional kind of stardom. It's not ball dominant. It is more defense oriented. And I think we're seeing him move a little closer in that direction, honestly, like, by doing more big man stuff, by not just being a pure spacer. It's like if you have the finesse shooting game, sometimes it feels revolutionary when you're just like, hitting the offensive glass, finishing those lobs, playing the dunker spot. When you're showing you have more ways to be a productive big. I think that's what the jump has been this season. It's the balance of that combined with being a little more, like, disciplined on defense, that stuff goes a long way.

[B]

Yeah. And as tantalizing as the combination with him and Bam is, he's almost forced into that more skilled shooting mold because Bam wants to play off of that and you want to give Bam opportunities to be by the rim. And so you're right, I think if they could be a little bit more measured and don't ask too much of him too soon. But that's tough considering where they are because we're now getting toward the middle end of the. Of the season where things are starting to not sour per se, but at the very least, reality starting to crash down on the heat to a certain extent. And you're wondering where the pop is coming from. Hero and Powell are starting to overlap a little bit. And you would hope that Ware's jump would be something that they can count on, but you hope that they don't do it too soon. Kind of in the same mold there as Hawkez, who all of a sudden rebounds. Seems like the player we thought he was going to be as a rookie. My concern overall, though, is if the offense changes, if they go away from this Nola Roche system, the no picks, just. Just beautiful movement. Would he be the one that suffered the most? Like, I almost wonder if he's a product of the system as much as he is his own unique YMCA sort of game.

[A]

I mean, I think we've seen that. To your point about the rebound, if we did this a year ago on a podcast, how fast would we be fast forwarding through the Jaime Haka section because it was. It seemed inexplicable the way his game was falling apart because he in theory should be adaptable to lots of different systems. I think he just needs a baseline flow and it doesn't have to be Noah LaRoche level, no picks flow. But as long as you have some movement and like a kinetic nature to your offense, I think he can find a way to tap into most things.

[C]

He's a good enough athlete. I think that once you get the ball moving. Yeah. It's like once you slow him down and get him into a. Like, you know, we're. We're doing a little. We're doing a dance to try to get me a tougher shot. I. I also do think that something to be said without, you know, we don't know the details, but something did seem off with him last year in terms of all the other stuff off outside of basketball. So I'm not ready to just do its full indictment of him on that one. I did want to say Uncle El, where one more. One more thing about him is that we have sort of hammered over and over again about like we need, you know, to make this type of player work. We need a big guy who can be. For him, I think it's craft around the basket. He can. We know he can dunk the shit out of the ball. He's big and long, but he's somebody that if he's a lob threat and he can consistently hit, catch and shoot threes, which right now he's at 42.1% and guarded unguarded. He hits open shots, so that's. Or he hit shots from three. So that archetype is really valuable. And I think that that's a. That's a huge chip for. For Miami.

[A]

There are games with where. Where he's not even playing particularly well and just he feel like his presence around the basket feels like something the other team does not have whatsoever. Right. That length, that athleticism, that kind of disruption. He'll be like blocking shots, altering shots, and then he'll do something that frustrates SPO and he'll get yanked from the game. And it's like all those things are kind of true at once. I. He's maybe not exactly where he needs to be in terms of. Of every aspect of his defensive execution and positioning, but the stuff he does, you just can't find everywhere.

[B]

Well, I guess Nikola Jovic is a good segue based off of that description. Just because I Almost wonder if like only one of Hawkes or Jovic can be playing well at one time. The skill, big men, size, sort of.

[C]

Guys, as one goes stronger, the other must diminish.

[A]

They share a soul.

[B]

They extended them this summer right before the season just kind of has fallen off a map. I don't get it.

[A]

I didn't get it then, to be honest with you. He's. He's been one of these guys who I just never quite understand what I'm supposed to be seeing. Like, can't do a little bit of everything, but nothing at a truly high level. And sometimes those like BB minus guys across the board turn out to be quite valuable in the right system or the right circumstances. If you're that and you're not useful in this offense, I don't know what the good fit is for you. You, you know, he's not a standstill, stay in the corner kind of guy. In theory. You want him putting the ball on the floor, making decisions, making plays, using his length and his ability to create to like your advantage. He just has not functioned within this offense well, really at all, at any point. And it's been, it's been really tough to see.

[C]

Is it just a matter of like bounce, competence, not quite being there? Is that what, is that what. He's just more comfortable being in a sort of a ball screen. You know, we point to you, you shoot the ball kind of a thing. Whereas this, this system really, granted you're driving closeouts, but this is, it's a little bit different than, you know, attacking your man with, with a dribble and making something happen, you know, is it that, is that the case?

[A]

It definitely could be.

[B]

I mean, what are his primary skills once he has the ball and he's attacking like it's the passing. But he's not like an elite passer, he's not an elite shooter. And so.

[A]

Okay, handle like. Yeah, to your point. Okay. At most, most things.

[B]

So it's almost like a novelty. It's like this big size player who can put it on the deck a little bit. It's like, what are you going to do once you've done that? Yeah. And so I can see.

[A]

Well, the answer is you're going to get outplayed by Simone Fontechio, who's at least better at a number of those things.

[C]

One superlative beats out your sort of, you know, maybe you have a wider range of things that you might do well. Whereas one guy who can really do something like shoot the out of the ball, like Fontechio is going to be cream rising to the top.

[B]

Yakoshunus just can't, can't get on the court.

[A]

Still seems cool to me. Eric SP doesn't seem to agree, but I, I like who he could be.

[B]

I guess he's a ball screen guy, right?

[C]

Yeah, he's. I'm sure he's been penalized by this. He needs to get bigger, he needs to get stronger. He's still super young and he also just needs to be a consistent shooter. He's got a lot of things. He's got to level up in a lot of different areas. I, I trust the basketball brain in Casper Yakachonas, but I think we need to wait another year before we develop strong feelings one way or the other.

[B]

Well, number 20, a team I have very strong feelings about, that's the Portland Trailblazers, which if you're a Trailblazers fan, you're probably feeling pretty bad. They find themselves here just right above the bottom third of the league because a lot of their team, a lot of their hopes rest on a lot of these guys. I will say there's some solid stuff here. Clingan is just, he's a solid dude.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At this point, just a good hang. We haven't spent much time together. As much as I would like to.

[A]

When you say solid dude, I'm just imagining like, you know, just in the basement together, just watching movies, crushing beers. Just a solid dude.

[B]

He's just a magnolia picture guy, you know, big into the criterion, second rebound percentage, seventh and block percentage. I know exactly who he is. As long as he stays healthy, he's going to have that career. He's just a big old rim protector.

[A]

That's a, that's a big if though, if he stays healthy.

[B]

Well, for everyone in the NBA at.

[A]

This point, I think my question with Cling and who I agree I quite like is do you think he's ever going to get past that plateau of more than like a 25 minute a game? Big because. Incredibly valuable in certain situations. Notably, and this is just theoretical less valuable playing deep drop against Steph Curry while he takes 12 threes. Sorry, makes 12 threes. Theoretically. Right. So there's, there's circumstances where I just like don't really see how he stays out there. And that's why I wonder, like, can he ever be a full time, full load starting center? That's, that's where I want to see him get to at some point.

[C]

The baseline is high, but like you were, yeah, you. What you were saying, it's it's not wide, it's not versatile. I, I, as I was going through this, this class I was just like man it really, there is really is a depth and a wealth of young like defensive anchors and, and a lot of different types of players. You talk about the wares, the sars, so we'll get to and we have the drop guys like the Klingons and even the caulk burners that who we'll talk about later. I just think in terms of the, the Blazers man, I mean, I mean it's just kind of amazing how we the like league pass ambition that we had for this group a couple of years ago where we were projecting like you know man, Sharps flying around, scoot speeding around. We were just there's going to be lobs, it's going to be, it's going to be fun and it's amazing how Denny has just come and kind of it's a credit to Denny but it also is sort of an indictment on these guys not developing that Sharp just never really going to be trusted to be a full time decision maker. It's just kind of like mercenary score. If he forgot when he ever, if he changes homes I guess he'll become a mercenary but. And then you start talking about scoot. It's just I asked you this the other day. I mean just like where is the scoot warning? Like how, how bright you know, in terms of like the home lane security color code. If we were going to do that for a scoot for his hamstrings, what are we doing man?

[B]

Well, the hamstring I'm pretty concerned about because he's hasn't even been cleared for full contact at this point. But I think he's a neutral because he was about to turn the corner corner last season. Like I thought this season may not have been the superstar breakthrough but I thought he would have acquitted himself as a good or high level starter in the league. I think that's ultimately where he'll settle. I I've just been so impressed by his makeup and his mindset about these things. He just seems like a like hardo grinder who really revels in mastering some of the nuances of the position. And when you talk to him about it, he will talk your ear off about all the minors different things that he does did in order to have success last year the shock came around and everything started to get a little easier as a regard. He needs to, he needs to shoot better and he needs to do it consistently at the basket. Is the big concern for him, he needs to develop a floater.

[C]

He needs to shoot it at the basket.

[B]

Yes, yes, it would be great if he had anything at the basket, but I actually trusted him. If the shot was real from the outside. Getting the floater seemed natural in that progression. So I'm pretty high on scoot. But. But will they find the star? That's the big question with the Blazer. In addition, I mean, Denny being a star helps.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But I would say one of the reasons to be high on the Blazers is that at the very least they have lottery tickets. I think Shaden, we're all pretty concerned at this point.

[A]

I think we all personally wanted to get your, your progress report on the Shaden experience.

[B]

If Shaden can't shoot well, which I thought was going to be his elite skill, no matter what happened, I'm, I'm really worried. He's probably just more of an energy score. He still has the ability to float in the air and so you want to keep betting on him.

[A]

It.

[B]

But at this point he should have shown something to say that like, and he saw the opportunity this year. Like he has showcases where he could just be the guy who is the go to scorer against like multiple opponents in a row and he just hasn't really clicked there. But if you're playing optimus, you would say if he does click it in, like, if the mindset part of it clicks in, like he could still be a guy. And I think Yang is in that same mix where like hasn't showed much. He's looked pretty rough out there against NBA competition. Better against the G League.

[A]

League, yeah.

[B]

But he's a lottery ticket. So they're, at the very least they have these bets and so if you were to think better about the Blazers, they could unearth something down the road.

[A]

The, the young one is tougher. I mean Shaden, yeah, there's lots of caveats, but he's still been incredibly productive within the realm of what he's being asked to do. I don't agree with everything about the way he sees the floor or some of the shots he takes. But like he does things that are important to a team.

[C]

Does he see? You said that. You said he. The way he, he sees the floor.

[A]

He sees something out there. Is it like globs and shapes or.

[C]

Is it rotting cones?

[B]

The.

[A]

The full acuity is not necessarily there for him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yang though, I mean, you don't see it. Well, I just, you know, the dream was there. I would say a big old ice cold glass of Water has been poured on that dream.

[B]

How many, how many NBA minutes has he played?

[A]

It's not been a ton. Yeah, but in those, it's not lost. It's unspeakably slow.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, I just, you know, I want to hold out hope. The skill is clearly there. I worry with him. Will he ever be a guy who's just not in constant foul trouble because of the foot speed? It just seems like he has a hard time being in the right places at the right time on defense in particular. And maybe that is an experience thing. Maybe the more you get up to speed, you're anticipating and you're not reacting so much and that'll kind of help him in time. But for where he is right now, he has a lot to learn. The dream is not, is not dead, but it is, I think, fully soaked at this point.

[C]

In every young player, there's gotta be a tension and there's gotta be a release if you're going to be a star. And I think the tension is what it is that you do with the basketball that other teams have, have to like, go stop. Like, I know if you're going to be a star. If you like, for example, like a Josh Giddy, we like rim pressure that enables his passing. If the problem for me, that when I was watching Young, you know, coming up the draft, I was just like, yeah, I see all these great skills and I'm just, I, I see him passing the ball, I'm just like, I don't know where the tension is going to come from because I don't trust the, I don't trust the shooting. I was like, I. The thing, people really kept wanting to compare him to like a Shingun or a Jokic or something. It's like Jokic is a offense, offensive bully. He goes out there and gets to the rim, puts you in the basket, can score every which way and that unlocks those other superlatives. And I just, I worry. I mean, I just think about, like, Robbie Avila, like Indiana State, the Goggles guy who's at St. Louis now. Just like, he's a great shooter, but he's not going to be able to score in the NBA. So he's not a prospect. It's just those things have to work in tandem and I'm just still kind of waiting for Young to prove that. That's always been my hold up.

[A]

Can you say the bit about tension and release again, but whisper it seductively into the microphone?

[B]

Fun.

[C]

Every young player needs tension and release. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, just go Clip it, ship it.

[A]

Let's get that out in the world.

[C]

Yeah, I mean the other thing too, if you want to just keep going with that. I mean Sharp is another example of that. He has the tension of the individual scoring, but he sees the floor very narrowly and the shooting is inconsistent. I think with Sharp. Another thing too is just that like when you're an athlete that has everything available to you, I think it can kind of delay your mental processing of the game in a way where Sharp has been that dude. It's just I kind of. I think the best that we can hope for him is maybe like some kind of DeRozan decision making revolution happens to him in like year seven. What year was that when he had that leap of like. Oh, he's. It was with the spurs, right? I think. Yeah.

[A]

I mean but even before that DeRozan was showing like exceptional levels of craft. Really exceptional footwork because he was in like the Kobe school. In terms of the mid post stuff. Shaden doesn't have that kind of technique. It is all explosion. It is all like off the dribble. And maybe some of that is because of where the NBA is right now. But I would settle for, you know, a real refinement in some area of his game. Just get to something more reliably.

[C]

The Ricky Davis school.

[B]

Yes, that's a good one. Young has played literally 100 minutes okay in the NBA but to Kyle's point, like he is a bruiser but in a way that doesn't unlock some of his skill. You know, like he wants to play physically but it doesn't feel like he is used to NBA level physicality and thus that that is not an advantage at this point. I will say like the roster at the very least is built to empower him. So if it does click on this team can skyrocket pretty quickly because they have all these wings to the earlier point about like some of the stars that they they hoped would come from the draft. Like the team is Denny Tumani and Drew. And if you have that much two way talent, having a big playmaker to unlock that them make sense at least theoretical.

[A]

And this is one of those areas where Denny is not eligible for our young cores list. Which is why the Blazers are at number 20. Damn, he's awesome. But just does not fit.

[B]

I wish.

[C]

So Young, great haircut, looks great, handsome guy.

[B]

He has his own protein ice cream.

[A]

Does he really?

[C]

Yeah. That has to be a league unique situation. You've had it admit that you it's.

[B]

Only in Israel, but I Was like, you didn't import it? I will. I just wonder. Someone should have waved a red flag at that before it got up.

[A]

Protein ice cream.

[B]

Yeah. Someone's like, oh, so you have a protein ice cream.

[A]

I mean, it's more sensible than many of the protein oriented products at the store right now.

[B]

Protein cream. Yeah, that's something you're into.

[A]

I mean, milk has protein in it.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I think that. I think you gotta kind of. I think you gotta kind of ascend past a certain level of exercise to feel good about having protein ice cream. I don't know. I'm just. I'm just.

[B]

There was some protein popcorn at the office.

[A]

This is what I'm talking about.

[B]

That's too much.

[A]

That's not a real thing.

[B]

That's not a thing. Number 19. Definitely a thing. It's the Phoenix Suns. Who would have guessed that? The Phoenix Suns number 19 in a young core ranking at this point two months ago. But I'll be honest, I was higher on the Suns, if only because of the green thing I was talking about before. But also there's just a little bit more depth than you'd expect. Mark Williams is good for what he is. We could talk deeply about like what they paid for him and like his injury history and all that. But like Williams, green, Ryan Dunn, I like Mallow watch. We'll see. He's in the prospect category or the asset category. Rasher Fleming, kind of similar thing. There's actually more youth on this team than you expect. We didn't mention his Osogadaro. Yeah, everyone loves saying that name.

[A]

I mean, another, another one that just rolls off the tongue.

[C]

The old Tyler Kolik pick and roll partner. They were, they were fun. Yeah. I mean, if you look at the, if you look at the list here, it's. I mean, Brea is probably somebody you're just kind of hoping. Cause he's. He's six, seven and he can shoot the shit out of the ball. It's just. Can he stay on the floor? Def give you anything like that. It's not a group where you're like, there's. There's an obvious. This guy, you know, it probably could get. Maybe could give us something. There's. There's not an automatic. Like, this dude stinks. Probably not going to make it. Like there's. This is a solid. It's solid. I don't know about like the overall upside.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You know, I think it's more likely to produce like a solid role player, like a starter level kind of a player, but but, but it is deep.

[A]

I think they just fit where the Suns are right now too. Like not only are some of these guys playing, playing, they're giving the Suns the energy that is driving why they are winning. You know, I think Dunn, Iguidara, Williams in particular, just really active, not perfect all the time, not completely well rounded players, but they just throw a lot of length and activity and like flying limbs at you and they force you to adapt to that.

[B]

And if I overrated them, and I probably did because I had them 14th on my list above the 76ers, for instance, it's probably because the guys on this list do feed that style where it's like a lot of two way wings. Even like Fleming, a guy I saw in person a couple weeks ago, it's like he clearly has a long way to go, but good lord, the wingspan on that guy. Like so I can see the defensive potential on some of this. You're not a fan?

[C]

I just, it's my long worry with him. I, I worried in college, I worried that his shot chart had been kind of manicured to, to present a certain way when I would watch him. Speaking of the in between stuff that we were talking about, I was just like, oh boy, it was just ugly. Anytime he did anything other than shoot a wide open three. And I worried that he might fall into that body type archetype that we talked about with like a Jarris Walker or somebody that really passes the airport test in terms of like a big wing with big shoulders, super rippling muscles and he hits an open three. But when you ask him to do other stuff, it's like, ooh, rough. So I, I need, I still need to be kind of went over it was for sure.

[A]

What is the airport test?

[C]

You never heard of the airport test?

[A]

No. Do you know what the airport test is?

[B]

To get through the scanner?

[C]

Well, it's like you look at the, you look at somebody walking through the airport and you're in the. It's just the, the looks test. Like they, they're big.

[A]

They look that, that guy split second eye test.

[C]

Yeah, it's just like there's an athlete. You know, it's just kind of that thing.

[A]

See, I was thinking like, will he fit comfortably into an aisle seat without bumping his shoulder against the cart?

[C]

Like what is, what is the not airplane?

[A]

Well, you know, one follows the other. I mean, look, it's a constant problem.

[C]

You're an exit row guy, I'd imagine.

[A]

I mean at every opportunity.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

You know, aisle if possible.

[B]

Always aisle.

[A]

Yeah. I've.

[B]

I'm a window.

[C]

Window.

[A]

See, I'm a recovering window. I've come into the aisle phase of my life. I just, I know, need the room.

[C]

I don't like the. I'm not lean, you know, leaning away. I'm just kind of like. And the key to being a good window person is don't drink a drop of liquid before you get on the plane. I'm not going to make everybody get up. I will not do suffer that, make anyone suffer that. I've never done the windows or I've never done the. The emergency seat. I got in the other day and there was an old dude passed out drooling and I was like, it's usually somebody like.

[A]

That was me.

[C]

Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I have a terrible bladder. So aisle is the only option. I'm like, oh, lady, how many times.

[A]

Are you getting up during the flight?

[B]

How long is the flight?

[A]

Three and a half hours.

[B]

Twice.

[A]

You're doing two peas on a three and a half hour flight.

[B]

And if also just to get. Get up and get around.

[A]

I mean, that's. That part's fair. But I think we managed to get you a bag at that point.

[C]

Jesse Ventura. Like, I have to lay down in the aisles. My blood flow.

[A]

I don't have that. But I do have. If it is over three and a half hours, I start slowly losing my mind. Like the la. Whatever is remaining of the flight is just the descent into madness from me at that point.

[B]

People listening to these podcasts and you.

[C]

Don'T even go for noise canceling headphones, we found out, which is like an absolute necessity on planes.

[A]

I feel like it scrambles my brain when I'm doing it.

[C]

Something's wrong with you, I think.

[B]

Yeah, it's like living in like a place where there's not somewhere within 10 miles. It's eerie when you put the noise canceling on and you can't hear anything. It's like, am I in space right now?

[A]

Maybe you are.

[B]

All right. So the Phoenix Suns, Mark Williams, we should talk about. Big old target seems to have like refound his footing as like a prospect of note. He makes sense. Another guy playing 25 minutes, another guy. You have to worry about his injury history. Especially considering a trade was vetoed or rescinded. Sure. Based off of that or whatever the Lakers concocted in order to rescind the trade. I will say that looking back on it, the trade for him doesn't look as bad as I initially thought because they traded two first and also then went and drafted Malawatch, but one of the first was 29th and the horn and selected Liam McNeely with that isn't very good right now. And another was a 2029 first and it's the worst of the Cavs, Jazz and Timberwolves and so pretty neat little deal for the Suns, who haven't made a lot of those in five years.

[A]

Yeah, you know, I like this deployment from Mark Williams too, where if you asked him to be the catch all big where you're funneling everything to him, Allah a Rudy Gobert disaster. Like he just can't handle that from a positioning standpoint at least has hasn't been that guy so far. But if you're flying around pressuring on the perimeter and making everyone who gets into the paint panicked and rushed. Mark Williams is actually a pretty good like swoop in and block and alter shots kind of defender. And so you tap into obviously everything he gives you as a lob threat and a finisher inside where he's incredibly athletic, has that bounce, has the timing, has the hands and you're minimizing the ways in which his defense might actually be a liability. I think Jordan Naz done a really great job like finding the perfect fit for him.

[C]

He's a run jump dunk guy, I think, and he gives you a side of the coin to play with if Malawatch comes around and they decide they want to keep him. I know he's on a one year deal right now, but he's more of a, he's more of a scheme versatile guy in pick and roll than Malawatch is. But so I think eventually, if you, if you want the, I think the, the center rotation for this team has a chance to be, you know, something interesting to keep an eye on.

[B]

Could they be like what the Mavs had with Gafford and Lively was, which is like springy, go up and get it now. These are just road graders. You have 48 minutes of giants. Interesting idea.

[A]

And especially if you're trying to keep Mark Williams healthy, I think, you know, any way you can limit his exposure and time is probably a good thing.

[B]

All right, number 18. The Brooklyn Nets, who are, as we're recording this on Tuesday afternoon, are 4 and 2 over their past six games. Halcyon days for the Brooklyn Nets right now. We've actually talked about them a lot. Surprisingly enough, we haven't had a maybe in a little while and I'm not embarrassed to say that I have Noah Clowney as a maybe as a blue chipper.

[A]

Maybe a blue chipper.

[B]

Yeah. Probably the long, long list, but I'm buying it.

[A]

I would go as far as that. We have to be the preeminent Noah Clowney podcast.

[B]

I hope so.

[A]

Is anyone talking about Noah Clowney as much as we are?

[B]

They shouldn't be. So.

[A]

I love Noah Clowney. Blue chip seems intense. Yeah, probably seems like an intense level of expectation for him.

[B]

I just, I went with the maybes as guys that I had to stop and think about it and he's one. I was like, oh, I believe in him being the best version of what we've concocted for him as this just plug and play three and D rim protector shooter. And so that's why I thought about it. But probably a little too strong.

[C]

I. I think he projects as like his ceiling. I think his arc is aimed at high quality role player. Very versatile. Like. Well, the highs will be high. Do impressive things at his size, like at 610, you know, hitting threes, getting to the rim, dunking on people, people. His positional versatility defensively is really strong too. And I think that might just be enough. I don't think he needs to be a facilitator. I think if he's those things, he interfaces with a star, which the Nets don't have yet, and hopefully they will. And then I think we'll see a lot of good stuff from Clenny and I think that's plenty.

[A]

Well, especially when you think about how valuable that type of player is. Like, that's almost like an Aaron Gordon esque kind of contributor. Right. Someone who's really tying together lineups, who's able to connect all those dots offensively and defensively.

[C]

That's an interesting over under to bring up for cleaning, Browning. I mean, do we. Do we have.

[A]

I don't think he's getting to that level. Like, Aaron Gordon is about as high level a quote unquote role player as you're gonna find.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's just a hundredth percentile athleticism.

[B]

And started more on the Star Trek and then pivoted to be the positioning that in different ways. Yes, but you're right. I think about that a lot of times, like people perhaps underestimate having a Gordon like that. If you start with the Gordon as your mindset and you just follow that track. I guess the question is, is he okay with just being very strong, streamlined? Because Gordon at this point has very little waste in his game. Yeah, I think.

[C]

I think whenever you're trying to project players, and I find myself in this position a lot when players are Younger coming, you know, and they're in the draft, we're trying to figure it out. There's this phase of. Especially if guys show me things, and I'm, like, really wowed by them. I'm like, jaeger last fall. With somebody like that where you're. It's almost like you're in a huge arena and you think you know where you're going. And then when they do something like that, you think you know how big the room is. And whenever they do really impressive things, it's like someone just pumps a fog machine in there, and you. You're like, oh, boy, I don't know where the walls are anymore. And, like, when Clowny does things like he drives to the basket and dunks on somebody and swoops in and blocks a shot, you're like, I don't know how. I don't know how big this room is. But when we were just talking about Aaron Gordon, I felt like I just like kind of backtracking a little bit. Even asking the question is insulting to Aaron Gordon, because I just felt like I kind of walked into a wall for even thinking that. So, yeah, he's. I think he's well short of an Aaron Gordon. That's probably more just praise for Gordon than it is for the highest of the high.

[A]

We might need to institute an Aaron Gordon Bonk. Like, if you try to compare any.

[C]

Role players to an Aaron Gordon, just give each other concussions.

[A]

Get it together or be reasonable.

[C]

Gordon bonk.

[B]

So in addition to Clowney, though, there are eight other guys on this list for the Nets. And all of them are interesting because all of them were practically picked from last year's first round on this list. Rob, who's most interesting to you? So we got Dioman, Saraf, Traore, Powell, Wolf, Sharp, Cam Thomas, even Sarah Williams.

[A]

Yeah. What does it mean to be interesting? This is what I'm wondering, as you ask me this.

[B]

Who has the best future ahead of them?

[A]

I mean, Cam is kind of undeniable at what he does.

[B]

Let's fucking go.

[A]

Do I like those things?

[C]

It's undeniable that he will do what he does.

[A]

That's the thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Can I ask you a question quickly about Cam Thomas? So he's played eight games because he's been out for a while. This is the problem, by the way, with betting on your. A team isn't going to rush you back. If you bet on yourself, they're going to take the long.

[C]

So.

[A]

And this is a. This is a trend with him. He has he's picked up a lot of injuries over the last couple years.

[B]

So in those eight games, he has a 32.8 usage percentage. How many assists do you think he's passed out in that time?

[A]

Oh, boy. I mean, it's. I feel like it's been a little lower this year, but I could be wrong about that. I think he, like, per 36 or per game, what do we say?

[B]

Just no totals. Total assist.

[A]

Total assist during how many or eight games? How eight games? Total assists, 24 assists.

[B]

Close 21.

[A]

I overshot it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I do think in his defense, I think he has accelerated a little bit as a playmaker. The question is, like, does he want to be someone doing that stuff? And even if he does, do I, as a person trying to, like, objectively analyze this game, trust that he's going to make the right basketball decisions all the time? Time. I just really don't. And maybe that's uncharitable given what the Nets have been. I wouldn't say he's been given a lot of great decisions to make in terms of the players he's been playing with over the last couple years when he was healthy enough to play. I. I just don't love it. I just don't love the Cam Thomas experience. And yet what he does like, he does get buckets. Like, he is a legit scorer. He is a creator of a level that some of these other guys would be aspiring to. And so it feels a little disrespectful for me to sit here and say, like, Jagor Gilman's going to really figure it out where Cam Thomas will not. When Cam Thomas is just a little further down the curse curve doing the most important stuff?

[C]

I think you're entering. Entering into a value conversation of which would you prefer to have? Would you. Would you rather have something that is rigid and it is going one direction where. Where like a Cam Thomas that was sort of similar to the Benedict Matheran thing of just like, you have to keep the. It's the pilot light guy. I remember Justin, remember our argument over that metaphor about the.

[B]

One of the good ones.

[C]

Some. Some fires are great if it's controlled in a furnace, you know, it can heat a house, but if it's outside of the house house, it could burn it down. So that's always what I say with him. You're talking about, like, the assist thing. With him, assisted usage among players at his position, 0.51. That's seventh percentile in the league. That is very, very low. So among dudes who do what he does. Yeah, he is. He is tilted heavily towards scoring the.

[B]

Ball, to be fair. Also, like this year, like, it really was like, just do whatever you want to start. Him and him and MPJ were really letting it fly to start the season. Him in particular.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, now that they've established some semblance of competency, I do wonder how he assimilates back in there because now he's going to butt up against GYN having the ball. MPJ firing away, and a lot of these guys figuring themselves out. Danny Wolf, baby.

[A]

I mean, he's really coming on. Finally getting some run. Danny Wolf, Jewish joker. Yeah, I. I mean, he's had some awesome shooting games for one. Like, the. The range feels real Wolf. When Wolf puts the ball on the floor and tries to drive. It feels a little like trying to. To get your Subaru out of the snow. Like, it's just like there's really a kick.

[B]

You looked at me when, when you said Subaru. Do you drive a Subaru? No, but there's this whole thing about Portland where they're everywhere, the hatchbacks. And what's funny is I need to get a new car in a couple months and I.

[A]

You're thinking about it.

[C]

Thought about it.

[B]

I was looking really hard at those.

[C]

Yellow Subaru with a roof rack.

[B]

Yeah. Just put my bike on there. I don't bike anymore, so.

[A]

But you could get a bike Subaru.

[B]

And some skis and the snowboard.

[A]

Kayak. No, not a kayak. Not a man of the water.

[C]

A little pod prep up at Multnomah. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know what's down there. Yeah.

[A]

But yeah, like, it's just.

[C]

Look, the first step is tough. That's all I'm saying.

[B]

That's true. Are you a gentleman believer now that you've seen more of him in the NBA?

[C]

I'll just sort of like tack on to the thing that I just said about when you're. Whenever you're trying to pick an archetype of like, would you rather. If you're missing one thing, which, which thing would you rather not have. Have? Like, I think Gman is somebody who doesn't necessarily. It's the tension thing too. Of. Is he going to be able to hit open shots? Is he going to be able to get to the rim? Is he going to be able to get into the teeth of the defense and not turn it over? I love Jagor's pluses. Like, I think his basketball brain is among the. Among the highest of the players in this field. Of these young guys, I would prefer to play. I personally, me, I would rather have a player like him. I am a believer in him. I think he's, he's good. I, I got so worried about the shooting before the draft that I just kept pulling him down. But I think he's going to get bigger. I think he's going to get stronger. I'm a believer in NDM and I really am.

[B]

Well, it's odd because his split between threes and twos has been pointed out in several places including here. I believe right now he has 119 three point attempts and 59 field goal attempts or two point attempts. So it really is double the amount. And before we used to get really concerned if a guy couldn't shoot and because of how much a priority shooting is now, like, do we have the same concern if he's not getting to the basket and scoring?

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

Which is more concerning for a guy like him.

[A]

Right now I think we're at a place with the NBA where every team can create space. Yeah, the question is like what can you do with space? And if you're not quick enough to knife through defenders and either make the right play or hit floaters or get all the way to the basket or draw fouls, there's just like a clear ceiling on what you can contribute. And so that, that's going to be the battle with him. Like I do think the shot is going to come along. Like you, Kyle. I, I really like just the way he sees everything around him and the way he tries to create plays for others. It's just going to be a matter of like who is he going to be as a scorer and how versatile is that score going to be?

[C]

He's big. I think that's something that maybe doesn't dawn on people is He's a legit 6, 8, 6 9. Yeah, he's a big guy.

[A]

I think I would bet on Jaeger as far as like an overall prospect. I still believe in what he can be. I also feel quite strongly that Drake Powell is just going to be good. Like I just, I think he's going to be good within a narrow range of something. Something we've been hitting on with a lot of these role players on these other kind of smaller, young core teams. But it all, all of the marks are there for him. It feels like he could deliver on, on a narrow role player potential. Right now it's like a little subtle for my taste, like you would like a little bit more. But I think he can deliver that.

[B]

All right. Two more left in this batch. Number 17, the Memphis Grizzlies, who unfortunately, we have another injury for Zach Edie. Stress reaction in his left ankle.

[A]

I mean, just about one of the worst things you can hear for a big. In terms of stress reaction injuries.

[B]

It's just especially because he had surgery on it in the off season. So reevaluated in four weeks. I imagine we're talking like all star break at best with him because reevaluated in four weeks means probably two to four more weeks after that. Pretty concerning because he was probably on his best stretch of his career at this point.

[A]

It's like every time he finally gets some momentum, he gets hurt with something or another, and it's usually these sorts of, like, red flag, chronic y big man injuries. I'm. I'm very concerned. He's looked better lately before he got hurt than he ever had before in the NBA to date. And that player looked like a real difference maker. So it was actually dictating terms who's taking advantage of things, who's not trading off on all the things he does well by giving up points in other ways. I was just like, really loving watching Zach Edie play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now I don't get to do that. The Grizzlies don't get to do that. And they have to be. They have to be concerned about who he can be full time over whatever kind of role they envision for him.

[C]

Yeah. Sometimes I think we get. And you know, we talked about a guy having maybe a narrow. You know, we were. I think maybe we were talking about Wendell Carter who didn't. The span of things that he did. Well, it wasn't super wide, but I feel like Edie's span is very narrow, but it's very strong, like in one direction. Like if he catches the ball in the basket, not complicated. He's going to turn left, right shoulder, make a hook shot. He's just big. He tries to dunk everything. I think he's a little more athletic than people gave him credit for throughout his college process. And I think that had he started to play a little bit more, I think the shooting touch actually is kind of sneaky. Not bad. Like, I think it's possible someday. But it is a shame. I mean, it's to the point where you sit him, he's probably. Is he at the rest of the year? It is. Or like. No, no.

[A]

I don't think it's that severe. But.

[C]

But do you go to that length? You know, those links for the precaution because it's just like if, if he's already, you know, damaged the thing he had repaired in the off season, it seems like it's pretty, it's pretty tough.

[B]

Scary.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

On the flip side, such a coward is a guy I have flagged as a maybe. Now lately, the shooting hasn't been great. He definitely has slowed down since his meteoric start where everyone was wondering whether or not he's the next Anthony Edwards. Definitely not me. I definitely didn't say that. No, he ain't dribbling.

[A]

Don't listen to any previous podcast.

[B]

The one thing I like in the midst of all the struggles is that he's still rebounding the shit out of the ball. Last three games, 12, 6 and 14 rebounds. And in nine of his 25 games this season, eight or more rebounds. I like that if things are not going well, he's still got that dog in him and he's going out and like contributing. That's great. That's great to see.

[A]

I mean, this is what separates a Coward style prospect. I said like he's a coward Cedric Coward type prospect from a Shaden Sharp type prospect. Right. If Shaden is not hitting, well, good luck tomorrow. You know, that's kind of all you got. If Cedric Coward isn't hitting, I think he profiles as an interesting defender. The rebounding is clearly already there and there's just some feel for the game stuff that I think says he could be a contributing facilitator. Even if he's ever going to be like a point forward type per se.

[C]

Yeah, I mean he, he definitely guides. He's not necessarily a manipulator of, of offense, but he definitely guides the ball where it needs to go. The, the dribbling is the thing that I think is going to be a threshold for him to. If he, if he has a handling leap, he becomes pretty serious. I think in terms of a guy who could level up because the shooting has come back to earth. Through the first, I think like month or so of the season, he had like the highest box plus minus him, he and Khan did among all the rookies. So he was really playing impactful basketball. And I think you're right, he plays the right way. I think that Coward is going to absolutely be. He's. He's nailed to the floor for the, for the Grizzlies. I think that he definitely is going to be able to sort of like jive with whatever they choose to do if they, if they go get another star or whatever it is. Yes, they do.

[B]

But Maybes for you guys probably too strong. Was he in consideration for as a blue chip?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, he's definitely a guy.

[B]

But not a maybe blue chipper.

[A]

I think with him, I think maybe is fair. He could be very special. I just don't want to yada yada. The part where he has to become special. Right. And with him, he hasn't even really been asked to stretch out yet. You know, he hasn't even been given like a ton of workload as a rookie. He's just had games where he's popped and he's had games where he's been active and engaged and obviously pulling down lots of boards. But. But it's not as if he is driving everything the Grizzlies are doing. And you can see the vision for first option Cedric Howard. It's all still a little hazy at this point.

[C]

I will say defensively, he has been asked to do a lot. If you, if you go down and look through his matchup difficulty, there is. It is a. It is a who's who. He's guard taking on a lot of tough assignments and that's another area that I think he's. He's going to add value in.

[B]

So Wells here, also a guy I love.

[A]

I love Jalen Wells.

[C]

I like Jalen Wells. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I like him.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Damning with faint phrase second after all spritz.

[B]

It's like, oh, in the right moment.

[C]

My voice goes up. I like him.

[B]

Other than that, you know the guys that we were banking on, the Gigi Jacksons, I mean, Vince Williams isn't in this category because he's too old for it. But like those guys that they seemed to have an abundance of all of a sudden, like. Yeah, those were kind of fleeting moments.

[A]

A puff of smoke.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now Omax Prosper is here doing who knows what. The stuff that he.

[C]

We didn't even mention GG Jack Jackson. Yeah. Which is interesting because I think he was really, really high on our. He was like one of the coveted prizes of the expansion. The famous expansion draft.

[A]

Last year he seemed like he had the whole world in front of him and now he mostly has like writing the bench in front of him in terms of the Grizzlies present tense. So it's. It's tough.

[B]

Sonics are doing fine.

[C]

Coward is definitely the Buzz Lightyear to his woody at this point. Like I, I definitely. I mean, he kind of is right.

[A]

You're right. You're right.

[B]

All right, last one. Number three. 16, the Chicago Bulls. Great place to end up Here. A couple interesting guys and a couple guys. I don't know what to make of them. Sure, I guess.

[C]

What have you learned.

[A]

What have you learned about the vanishingly small time we saw Noah Aseng this season, Justin?

[B]

Nothing. Literally nothing. I have him down as an asset.

[A]

Therein lies the problem for us and the Bulls both.

[C]

You're out. You, him as an asset.

[B]

Well, as in, I don't know what he is.

[C]

Oh, right.

[B]

Thus, I don't know how to really evaluate.

[C]

Yeah, I don't think we were going to know what he is this year. It was very long term.

[A]

I think all I was hoping for was that over the back part of the season he would be able to ease into some minutes and we would see some start of a progression from him. And it's a real bummer that he's going to be on the shelf for that and miss that opportunity and then maybe have to delay it into next season and it's going to be even longer until we figure out what he is.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, and this is a key time for him for the types of challenges that he has. Like that missing time during this time is pretty critical. It's, it's. It's that it gets late early in the NBA. You know, six total minutes in the, in the league so far. I thought at least we would see him as one of those, you know, teenager, you know, like driving the stick shift, like exotic sports car kind of thing, like where we'd be like, oh my God, like I thought we were going to see moments like that with a lot of just wobbly, shaky scariness and everything else. But we're, we're not even getting the fun stuff.

[B]

Because he was a major project prospect before, like last season, right?

[C]

Yeah, he was in this most recent draft.

[A]

But in terms of his stock.

[B]

Yeah, his stock was way higher two years ago. And then last year it kind of fell.

[C]

Right. I. Yeah, I mean, it probably came down a little bit. I. I was always a little bit worried about him connecting the dots and I remain in that camp, but.

[A]

Sorry, I. I veered us into an ascende ditch. This is a conversation about Josh Gideon. Modest.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

The unfortunate thing is he. He was the guy picked right before Derrick Queen. And now that Derek Queen is taking off, you get all the screenshots of like, could have gotten that guy, which I did for like, I think Jaime Haquez the first year when they drafted. Who's the kid from Indiana the Lakers drafted? The ball handler.

[C]

Oh, you're talking about the hyphenated name. It's. No, no, no, no. It's Jalen Hood.

[A]

Shafina.

[B]

You could edit that however you want.

[C]

No, I want the shot of Kyle's.

[A]

Extended arms staying in snore.

[C]

It's sort of a snore second side guy. Kind of the Colby Jones. Like, oh, if you didn't get. Doesn't do anything. Put him on the second side.

[B]

You didn't get Queen or the trade package from Elena.

[C]

It's.

[B]

It's pretty unfortunate.

[C]

Kobe Buffkin.

[B]

But Josh Giddy, obviously a maybe.

[A]

Oh, yeah, he has to be. I think. No, I think he's a blue chip chip legit. Like put him on the list.

[B]

Oh, you're a blue chip guy?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

Oh, you're higher on Giddy than I am.

[C]

But let me ask the hard. Let's ask the hard question here. If we're, if we were talking about a finals team, where does Josh Giddey fall in the pegging order of a finals team?

[B]

No, I think we saw it to a certain extent with the Thunder.

[A]

Did we?

[B]

Two years ago. Couldn't hit the shots to play off of a real superstar.

[A]

They weren't a finals team with Josh Giddey.

[C]

No, they weren't. They became one when he left.

[A]

I think the answer might like this version of Josh Giddy. I still don't know where he fits on, on a really high functioning Finals, but if you can get a team to a reasonable level of like even average offense with that level of playmaking and the way he kind of embraces it, I support that and I'm at least willing to put him on the list.

[B]

He's a major contributor on a good, fun team. That's the ceiling.

[A]

Sometimes fun, sometimes good.

[B]

But a top level team, definitely not.

[C]

Third, fourth, probably if he accepted a lesser role. Some of these primacy insistent guys just lead you to think that they're more. But really it's like they have to accept a, a different role on a title team. And it's like a Randall type. Like Randall's the kind of guy like that. He's like, I'm a primary and it's like you got some problems.

[B]

That's a good comp.

[A]

But there's a sweet spot, I think for Giddy that's somewhere between Thunder Giddy and Bulls Giddy. That's like you're still tapping into what makes him special as a player, but you're not tying your entire franchise to what he does and doesn't do.

[B]

Well, he's one of the oddest players and that's why I think the Randal comp is so good. Where it's like the ancillary skills he would need to play off of guys are his weakest part. But his elite skills aren't elite enough to drive 60 plus win no sort of team.

[A]

But he's still like an order of magnitude better than some of the other guys we've been putting as maybes on like, like, oh, Noah Clowney as a maybe. I love Noah Clowney.

[B]

Be careful he's not doing what Josh Giddy is doing.

[C]

He's never going to have a moment where we're like a Noah Clowney led team, won like had it like a month where they had like a 70% winning percentage like and guys like Ingram, Randall Giddey. Giddy's a better passer than all those guys and a better surveyor of the floor. It's just his challenges I think are the thing that kind of compresses those guys into the same category.

[A]

Yeah, I think Bruise Ellis is a blue chip prospect, hasn't had the jump this season that I would have liked. But that's not me. That's my fault.

[B]

Here's my question. And unfortunately I couldn't come up with a cross racial comp. So we are only human ultimately. But couldn't he be more athletic Gordon?

[C]

We just have to be resigned to being bound by race. We tried.

[B]

Could he be a more athletic version of Gordon Hayward?

[A]

Well, this is where I remember one of the cross racial comparisons for Gordon Hayward was what if Gordon Hayward is Steven Jackson? So what if Modest Vuzelis could be a more athletic Steven Jackson?

[B]

Yeah, let's go with that.

[A]

Or at least a lankier Steven Jackson.

[B]

We solved it.

[A]

I'm here to bail you out.

[B]

Does that track though? Because Hayward obviously Gordon Hayward is pretty athletic. He's also shooting like rock solid from like what, year two? Yeah, just instincts off the charts and so it's a high bar. But I see that a little bit in the way he moves. But he's going to be the better athlete version of that if he's like dunking over the top of player Hayward even when he was healthy, more ground bound, more crafty than anything.

[C]

I think knipples more the Hayward type, which we'll get to that later. Has a chance to be. It's what's. What is the highest vision. What is the highest vision of Boozela? So we think you think he's. Does he have facilitator vibes in his.

[A]

I think so.

[C]

Okay, in what? In what avenue I don't understand the question. Like, what, schematically, what type of basketball is he playing?

[A]

I think as a facilitator, it's mostly second side type stuff. I think ideally he profiles as the second or third best player and creator on the team, but is also really active defensively. He's also multi positional.

[C]

It's. It's contingent on him being high up. Like maybe the primary assignment guy on defense is what you're saying. So that's what we're talking about.

[A]

I mean, that would be great. I don't even have that level of aspiration. I, I think of him as like Andre Iguodala without the defensive Andre Iguodala, like, can he get to that level? You know, not as, not as purely athletic, but lanky and unconventional in a way where he's still able to get to the basket. You don't want him running point guard full time, but like, maybe he could eventually be a guy who runs second unit offense. I think that's within his, within his power to do, ultimately.

[B]

And you have him as one of your top 15 prospects in the league?

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, but you said he's a blue chipper.

[C]

I was going to say.

[A]

Well, that's a long list.

[C]

So you're. Maybe.

[B]

That's. That's what a maybe is.

[A]

We figured we just have a different.

[B]

Definition into this podcast. We figured it out.

[C]

I was trying to decide whether or not I want to. I'm going to kill you for mentioning Andre Iguodala in the terms of.

[A]

Bring it up.

[C]

What we got is that amazing. I just feel like the intangible. I just feel like the intangible Tools of bruise haven't really reminded me of Andre Iguodala yet, but. No, no. I mean, I, I'm. No, I'm. I'm. I'm just curious.

[A]

To be fair, I'm saying offensive Andre Iguodala, not defensive Andre Iguodala even still.

[C]

Like, the point guard skills with Iguodala, like, they popped once he got into a he when he was extended into a primary role before, just like, oh, is he a star? What is he? And then it compressed into this beautiful, efficient thing.

[A]

It took 10 years for that to happen. Nobody was looking at Sixers, Andre Gadala and being like, oh, my God, the point guard level vision on this guy. It's like, yeah, he can kind of do this. And it's taking some weight off of AI and the process, other AI in the process. But I, I think that was a later boom in terms of getting to the Nuggets and harnessing those skills, getting to the warriors and absolutely capitalizing on them.

[C]

But the defensive stuff was, was like all was pretty elite.

[A]

I'm not comparing modest Brazilis as a defender to Andre Godal. I want to make that very.

[C]

I'm just trying to figure out where you are. That's why I'm asking you questions. Because you started. The guy you were describing, you were like, well, not a primary guy. And I was like, okay, well, then a major defensive guy. You're like, I don't, I don't know about that.

[A]

I'm saying.

[C]

And then you said Andre Iguodala. I'm just saying, I don't know.

[A]

An all around contributor who's a factor defensively, who's facilitating on offense, who can hit shots and most importantly, drive and, and keep the offense and the gears moving. That's who I see him as being.

[B]

So speaking of a player who checks none of those boxes, Patrick Williams still on this list, 24 years old. This guy's in his sixth year.

[C]

How?

[B]

I thought he was 35.

[C]

35.

[B]

He has three more years left on his contract, by the way, after this one.

[A]

Sweet mercy.

[B]

It'll be a good deal eventually. By the end of it where it's like 18 million. Oh, like a normal.

[C]

How much is the cap going up?

[B]

By leaps and bounds, we hope. I. I can't believe it. But any of the other guys you want to talk about? Julian Phillips, Dylan Terry, Trenton, Flowers?

[A]

No, I don't think I do. Okay.

[B]

That's a podcast, baby. All right, that's it for part one.

[C]

Was that a Steve Rogers voice?

[A]

A little bit.

[B]

But we'll be back tomorrow with part two where we will talk about the 15 best young cores in the NBA and go through the final list we have for our three team of 15 top blue chip prospects in the NBA. Thank you for listening. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat and connect Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-505, oh for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8 Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.