Podcast
The Road to Accountable AI
Hosted by Kevin Werbach · EN
Artificial intelligence is changing business, and the world. How can you navigate through the hype to understand AI's true potential, and the ways it can be implemented effectively, responsibly, and safely? Wharton Professor and Chair of Legal Studies and Business Ethics Kevin Werbach has analyzed emerging technologies for thirty years, and created one of the first business school course on legal and ethical considerations of AI in 2016. He interviews the experts and executives building accountable AI systems in the real world, today.
35episodes
Episodes
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Brenda Leong: Building AI Law Amid Legal Uncertainty
Jun 12, 202500:36:52Tap to summarizeKevin Werbach interviews Brenda Leong, Director of the AI division at boutique technology law firm ZwillGen, to explore how legal practitioners are adapting to the rapidly evolving landscape of artificial intelligence. Leong explains why meaningful AI audits require deep collaboration between lawyers and data scientists, arguing that legal systems have not kept pace with the speed and complexity of technological change. Drawing on her experience at Luminos.Law—one of the first AI-specialist law firms—she outlines how companies can leverage existing regulations, industry-specific expectations, and contextual risk assessments to build practical, responsible AI governance frameworks. Leong emphasizes that many organizations now treat AI oversight not just as a legal compliance issue, but as a critical business function. As AI tools become more deeply embedded in legal workflows and core operations, she highlights the growing need for cautious interpretation, technical fluency, and continuous adaptation within the legal field. Brenda Leong is Director of ZwillGen’s AI Division, where she leads legal-technical collaboration on AI governance, risk management, and model audits. Formerly Managing Partner at Luminos.Law, she pioneered many of the audit practices now used at ZwillGen. She serves on the Advisory Board of the IAPP AI Center, teaches AI law at IE University, and previously led AI and ethics work at the Future of Privacy Forum. Transcript AI Audits: Who, When, How...Or Even If? Why Red Teaming Matters Even More When AI Starts Setting Its Own Agenda
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Shameek Kundu: AI Testing and the Quest for Boring Predictability
Jun 5, 202500:37:00Tap to summarizeKevin Werbach interviews Shameek Kundu, Executive Director of AI Verify Foundation, to explore how organizations can ensure AI systems work reliably in real-world contexts. AI Verify, a government-backed nonprofit in Singapore, aims to build scalable, practical testing frameworks to support trustworthy AI adoption. Kundu emphasizes that testing should go beyond models to include entire applications, accounting for their specific environments, risks, and data quality. He draws on lessons from AI Verify’s Global AI Assurance pilot, which matched real-world AI deployers—such as hospitals and banks—with specialized testing firms to develop context-aware testing practices. Kundu explains that the rise of generative AI and widespread model use has expanded risk and complexity, making traditional testing insufficient. Instead, companies must assess whether an AI system performs well in context, using tools like simulation, red teaming, and synthetic data generation, while still relying heavily on human oversight. As AI governance evolves from principles to implementation, Kundu makes a compelling case for technical testing as a backbone of trustworthy AI. Shameek Kundu is Executive Director of the AI Verify Foundation. He previously held senior roles at Standard Chartered Bank, including Group Chief Data Officer and Chief Innovation Officer, and co-founded a startup focused on testing AI systems. Kundu has served on the Bank of England’s AI Forum, Singapore’s FEAT Committee, the Advisory Council on Data and AI Ethics, and the Global Partnership on AI. Transcript AI Verify Foundation Findings from the Global AI Assurance Pilot Starter Kit for Safety Testing of LLM-Based Applications
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Uthman Ali: Responsible AI in a Safety Culture
May 29, 202500:32:44Tap to summarizeHost Kevin Werbach interviews Uthman Ali, Global Responsible AI Officer at BP, to delve into the complexities of implementing responsible AI practices within a global energy company. Ali emphasizes how the culture of safety in the industry influences BP's willingness to engage in AI governance. He discusses the necessity of embedding ethical AI principles across all levels of the organization, emphasizing tailored training programs for various employee roles—from casual AI users to data scientists—to ensure a comprehensive understanding of AI’s ethical implications. He also highlights the importance of proactive governance, advocating for the development of ethical policies and procedures that address emerging technologies such as robotics and wearables. Ali’s approach underscores the balance between innovation and ethical responsibility, aiming to foster an environment where AI advancements align with societal values and regulatory standards. Uthman Ali is BP’s first Global Responsible AI Officer, and has been instrumental in establishing the company’s Digital Ethics Center of Excellence. He advises prominent organizations such as the World Economic Forum and the British Standards Institute on AI governance and ethics. Additionally, Ali contributes to research and policy discussions as an advisor to Oxford University's Oxethica spinout and various AI safety institutes. Transcript Prioritizing People and Planet as the Metrics for Responsible AI (IEEE Standards Association) Robocops and Superhumans: Dilemmas of Frontier Technology (2024 podcast interview)
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Karen Hao: Is Imperial AI Inevitable?
May 22, 202500:35:26Tap to summarizeKevin Werbach interviews journalist and author Karen Hao about her new book Empire of AI, which chronicles the rise of OpenAI and the broader implications of generative artificial intelligence. Hao reflects on how the ethical challenges of AI have evolved, noting the shift from concerns like data privacy and algorithmic bias to more complex issues such as intellectual property violations, environmental impact, misleading user experiences, and concentration of power. She emphasizes that while some technical solutions exist, they are rarely implemented by developers, and foundational harms often occur before tools reach end users. Hao argues that OpenAI’s trajectory was not inevitable but instead the result of specific ideological beliefs, aggressive scaling decisions, and CEO Sam Altman’s singular fundraising prowess. She critiques the “pseudo-religious” ideologies underpinning Silicon Valley’s AI push, where utopian and doomer narratives coexist to justify rapid development. Hao outlines a more democratic alternative focused on smaller, task-specific models and stronger regulation to redirect AI’s future trajectory. Karen Hao has written about AI for publications such as The Atlantic, The Wall Street Journal, and MIT Tchnology Review. She was the first journalist to ever profile OpenAI, and leads The AI Spotlight Series, a program with the Pulitzer Center that trains thousands of journalists around the world on how to cover AI. She has also been a fellow with the Harvard Technology and Public Purpose program, the MIT Knight Science Journalism program, and the Pulitzer Center’s AI Accountability Network. She won an American Humanist Media Award in 2024, and an American National Magazine Award in 2022. Transcript Empire of AI: Dreams and Nightmares in Sam Altman's OpenAI Inside the Chaos at OpenAI (The Atlantic, 2023) Cleaning Up ChatGPT Takes Heavy Toll on Human Workers (Wall St. Journal, 2023) The New AI Panic (The Atlantic, 2023) The Messy, Secretive Reality Behind OpenAI’s Bid to Save the World (MIT Technology Review, 2020)
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Jaime Banks: How Users Perceive AI Companions
May 15, 202500:29:53Tap to summarizeAI companion applications, which create interactive personas for one-on-one conversations, are incredibly popular. However, they raise a number of challenging ethical, legal, and psychological questions. In this episode, Kevin Werbach speaks with researcher Jaime Banks about how users view their conversations with AI companions, and the implications for governance. Banks shares insights from her research on mind-perception, and how AI companion users engage in a willing suspension of disbelief similar to watching a movie. She highlights both potential benefits and dangers, as well as novel issues such as the real feelings of loss users may experience when a companion app shuts down. Banks advocates for data-driven policy approaches rather than moral panic, suggesting responses such as an "AI user's Bill of Rights" for these services. Jaime Banks is Katchmar-Wilhelm Endowed Professor at the School of Information Studies at Syracuse University. Her research examines human-technological interaction, including social AI, social robots, and videogame avatars. She focuses on relational construals of mind and morality, communication processes, and how media shape our understanding of complex technologies. Her current funded work focuses on social cognition in human-AI companionship and on the effects of humanizing language on moral judgments about AI. Transcript ‘She Helps Cheer Me Up’: The People Forming Relationships With AI Chatbots (The Guardian, April 2025) Can AI Be Blamed for a Teen's Suicide? (NY Times, October 2024) Beyond ChatGPT: AI Companions and the Human Side of AI (Syracuse iSchool video)
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