5 Predictions For The Running Event, Dick's Assimilates Foot Locker & Is Resale Profitable?

Summary

The Rock Fight Podcast

Episode Title: 5 Predictions For The Running Event, Dick's Assimilates Foot Locker & Is Resale Profitable?
Air Date: December 1, 2025
Host(s): Colin True, Producer Dave, Owen Comerford, Shantae Salibair ("Gear Abbey")
Episode Length: ~69 minutes

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Main Theme / Purpose

In this episode, the Rock Fight crew cuts through the usual outdoor industry noise with candid commentary and debate. The team tackles three major topics: the profitability of the outdoor gear resale market, the business shake-up following Dick’s Sporting Goods’ purchase of Foot Locker, and makes lively, insightful predictions for the upcoming Running Event trade show (TRE) and its Switchback segment. The episode wraps with a thoughtful industry interview with Nathan Dopp, CEO of Fjällräven Americas.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Outdoor Gear Resale: Hype vs. Profitability

Timestamps: 03:37 – 09:05

• Listener Becky (from Tersys Solutions) writes in to challenge a previous claim that gear resale isn’t profitable.
• Owen's breakdown:
  • Resale is labor-intensive, each used item is unique (inspect, list, ship individually vs. new goods shipped in lots).
  • True profitability for large, public resale players (e.g., ThredUp, The RealReal) is elusive; accounting tweaks may appear to show profitability.
  • Brands may ‘hide’ true costs by classifying credits/gift cards as marketing, zeroing out inventory, etc.
  • Partnering with platform-agnostic players (e.g., Tersys’ partnership with GearTrade; Cotopaxi + ThredUp) is seen as the real, scalable step to move the market.
• Industry transition:
  • Cross-brand, incentive-driven programs are needed, not just ‘walled garden’ brand-only resale.
  • The sector is in early days; skepticism and realism are warranted.

Quote:

"It is still... tough to make money if you look at all the costs that go into it." – Owen (04:55)

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2. Dick's Acquisition of Foot Locker: Brutal Business, Rapid Overhaul

Timestamps: 09:43 – 18:54

• News Recap: Dick’s Sporting Goods, post-acquisition of Foot Locker, plans to write down $500-750 million in assets and closes a significant number of stores.
• Owen’s Financial Insight:
  • Much of the write-down is inventory—Foot Locker’s stock was “wrong product, merchandised poorly, in bad locations.”
  • Ed Stack (Dick’s Chairman) is “brutally direct” on fixing problems, prefers quick action (major clearances, then liquidation for leftovers).
  • Likely result: mass liquidation, deep discounts through Dick’s own channels (e.g., “Going, Going, Gone”), potential use of “jobbers” (liquidators).
  • Impact: May close as many as 250–500 stores (out of ~2,300).
• Strategic Direction:
  • Foot Locker to re-establish premium ‘sneakerhead’ credibility, less of a clearance channel.
  • Brands affected, but short-term pain could create future open-to-buy opportunities.

Quotes:

"In short, it was a shit show... he used the term 'retail 101' when talking about this." – Owen (12:02)
"They're going to put a ton of stuff on sale... fish while the fish are biting." – Owen (13:15)

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3. Running Event & Switchback: Preview and Predictions

Timestamps: 22:15 – 45:39

Show Background

• TRE (The Running Event) launched in 2006, now the top run & outdoor specialty retail trade show in North America.
• ‘Switchback’ is the newer outdoor-focused add-on, aiming to bridge running and outdoor retail.

Panel Favorites & Observations

• Shantae (Gear Abbey):

  • First time attending; intrigued to experience the ‘run nerd’ scene and how outdoors is integrated.
  • Wonders if “outdoor” feels like a “mistress” to running, not the main focus.

  “Is it going to be a seamless integration… ombre effect of hardcore running, trail running, then Clif bars and body glide?” (24:00)

  • Seeks innovations and practical gear for the everyday (not elite) runner.

• Dave:

  • TRE brings back the buzz of classic outdoor retailer shows—energy, big “booth-opolises,” trade vibes.
  • Wonders about the “road vs. trail” rivalry and how it’s represented.

• Owen:

  • TRE is a rare thriving national industry show; wants to discover its secret sauce.
  • Interested in emerging brands and whether Switchback feels vibrant or overshadowed.

• Colin:

  • Focused on whether the business/enthusiasm model of TRE is replicable in pure outdoor shows.

Some Key Trade Show Mechanisms

• Education Day:

  • Rooted in retailer education; all agree it needs to become more solutions-oriented, not just “panels and platitudes.”
  • It works well when tied to a strong industry org (here, the Running Industry Association).

• Awards Dinner:

  • Closing awards show keeps attendance strong through the end; effective “bookend” event strategy.

“The last day is always just a ghost town… having a real event at the end makes a ton of sense.” – Owen (34:20)

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4. Wild Predictions for the Running Event (and beyond!)

Timestamps: 37:08 – 44:52

Shantae’s Prediction:

• Trail running will dominate conversations and brand presence—even non-core trail brands will flex trail cred.

  “One in every five conversations is going to be about how trail running is the new road running.” (37:30)

Dave’s Predictions:

• The “sock wall” will be hyper-competitive and a zone of drama.
• Possible name change for the show (“Running Daze”) to riff on the recent Outside Days festival renaming.
• At least one Switchback exhibitor will really up the booth game (“booth envy is real”).

Owen’s Prediction:

• Diversified (show organizer) will announce a major industry awards push for Switchback 2026, following the successful TRE model.

Colin’s Prediction:

• “Outdoor run posers”—at least three outdoor brands will feel awkwardly out of place trying to act ‘running.’
  • Speculates on likely brand culprits (Prana, Sea to Summit, Berghaus).
• Mega-prediction: This will be the LAST Switchback at the Running Event—look for Switchback to fully spin out, running and outdoor to separate again.

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5. Fjällräven Interview: Industry Outlook, Trade Shows, and Brand Strategy

Timestamps: 47:39 – 67:12

Guests: Nathan Dopp (CEO, Fjällräven Americas; VP, Fenix Outdoor)

Industry Confidence for 2026

• Fjällräven’s stability comes from being a long-term oriented, non-PE owned company; they can make decisions for the long haul.
• Tariffs: Planning for price uncertainty but have moved much production out of China over past 6–7 years.
• The biggest challenge is uncertainty (e.g., tariff policy can change rapidly).

Quote:

"We get to make really... thoughtful decisions around what we're going to do and what we're going to do next." – Nathan (48:51)

Retail & Channel Strategy

• Fjällräven is bullish on brick-and-mortar, especially specialty retail, rather than a heavy e-commerce discounting model.
• Online retail is chosen carefully, focused on maintaining brand value (avoiding rampant discounting like in European markets).
• Supply chains built for carryover classics, not chasing seasonal trends; enables agility with minimal reinvention.

On Fenix Outdoor as Brand Acquirer

• Devold (heritage wool brand) acquisition – aim for quality, synergy with existing brands, not aggressive roll-ups.
• New brands only added if they fit heritage and expertise focus.

Trade Shows & Brand Identity

• Nathan still loves “the big old days” of epic trade show booths, but efficiency is now king.
• Will support category-leading shows (GOA, possibly Switchback), but OR (Outdoor Retailer) only if a “serious momentum shift” occurs.
• Retailers now must triage attendance, so brands must “meet them where they are”—including regional shows, in-store visits, etc.

Quotes:

"We're a product driven company. A lot of the products popular today are 30 and 40-year-old styles." – Nathan (62:37)
"If we can't make a real [Fjällräven version], then we shouldn't do it.” – Owen’s praise at 66:07

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6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the industry’s endless optimism:
  “We don’t want to embrace any positive news early. We’ve had the carpet pulled out from under us too often.” – Panel (09:20)
• On Foot Locker’s legacy inventory:
  “So, I mean, Ed Stack used the term ‘jobber’ on the call, which is like ho, woof." – Owen (13:06)
• On the energy of the running event:
  "There is such an energy of people doing business and being there. The promotional side is fully on display." – Dave (25:55)
• On education days at trade shows:
  "Let's get into the solutions part of it now guys, we know what the problems are." – Shantae (32:44)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Resale marketplace debate: 03:37 – 09:05
• Dick’s / Foot Locker shake-up: 09:43 – 18:54
• Predictions & preview of TRE / Switchback: 22:15 – 45:39
• Fjällräven / Nathan Dopp interview: 47:39 – 67:12

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Tone & Language

The episode is lively, irreverent, unfiltered, and full of in-jokes and industry shade. The hosts never take themselves too seriously but remain thoughtful, critical, and deeply versed in outdoor and retail business realities. “Gear Abbey” Shantae adds warmth and a practical consumer perspective. Discussion is often peppered with playful banter and campfire humor.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Rock Fight delivers sharp, honest outdoor industry commentary: challenging the rosy narratives around resale, digging into the real-world retail carnage as Dick’s overhauls Foot Locker, and offering predictions (with tongue firmly in cheek) for the business and culture at North America’s top running trade show. The Fjällräven interview offers a rare, relatively unguarded look at how a leading brand navigates constant change, uncertainty, and strategic growth in the outdoor market.

For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of outdoor retail, trade show evolution, and where culture and commerce intersect in the wilds of the running and outdoor world, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

[A]

Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock fight.

[B]

Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True, and joining me today, if I have one rule in life, that's anytime. Producer Dave and Owen Comerford and I offer predictions for the running event. Then we have to be joined by Ghira Abbey herself. It's Chante Salibair.

[A]

She's back on the Runway.

[C]

So glad to be here. Just to add a little flavor to the Brody. Thanks for having me, guys.

[D]

Rodeo. Okay. No, Much needed.

[E]

Yes.

[B]

Listen, the outdoor industry has a reputation. We're just working to uphold it.

[C]

Just injecting some feminine mystique here, that's all.

[B]

Well, today we have a couple of quick topics to hit on before the four of us preview the running event and Switchback, which is set to kick off 24 hours after this podcast comes out. Then stick around to the end of the episode for the final interview that we recorded at Goa Connect last month, this time with Fjall Ravens. Nathan do. But before we get to any of that, some programming reminders. Let's start with what we're all doing this week. Guys, are you ready to see the Rock Fight live two days from now? You can come see everyone you're listening to on this podcast. That's me, Shantae, Producer Dave and the consigliere Owen Comerford will be at the running event. This Wednesday, December 3rd. We'll be doing a live taping of the Rock Fight in the training camp theater right by the switchback side of the event. We're going to be joined on stage by a bunch of different guests. We're going to hear from Gear Abby, you're going to get producer Dave and the rest of our crew's assessment of of the booth situation. Will code epoxy rebound from summer Switchback? We're going to find out.

[D]

I think they will. I think they'll bring it.

[C]

I think they took a dog.

[B]

I think we're in their heads.

[D]

Yeah, they did.

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

So if you were at Switchback Spring, you know how much fun we're going to have. I hope to see anyone listening to this who's going to be at the running event, please come see the show. And hey, guys, just because she'll be in San Antonio does not mean that you won't get a new episode of Gear Abbey this Thursday. So make sure you're following the Gear Abbey podcast. And lastly, we want to Hear from you. Email [e-mail], reach out on LinkedIn. Search it up. It's Rock Fight over there. Go on Instagram or Rock Fight.

[F]

Co.

[B]

Send us a message. We want to hear from you. We have a. Now that Shantae's here, we need to make sure she knows that we are aiming to outdraw the amount of emails we get here at the Rock Fight.

[C]

It's.

[D]

We're losing battery.

[C]

GearAbbyMail.com is what Colin meant to say.

[B]

Yeah, Gear Abbey is slaughtering us. After 15 episodes, we have like 400 plus rock fighting. You know, it's like, I just.

[C]

I love having pen pals. Keep writing to me, people.

[D]

Well, maybe we need our own Q and A section, Colin, so we can, you know, take on Gear Abby. Wow.

[B]

A Q and A section hosted by Gear Abby on the Rock Fight.

[D]

No.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

No.

[C]

The empire grows.

[B]

The only one allowed to answer questions on the Rock Fight podcast network is Shantae Salovet.

[D]

That's it.

[B]

Speaking of listener mail, we do have a quick stop in the mailbag today, which we're. In lieu of a parting shot, where is presented by Garage Grown Gear. I forgot to write in some new products from Garage Grown Beer.

[E]

Beer.

[B]

Garage Grown Beer.

[C]

Is that their new product?

[B]

Spin off brand for.

[D]

What is the thing?

[A]

New products?

[C]

It's ultralight. It's very aerated. You know, it's dehydrated.

[B]

It's like.

[D]

That's the thing.

[B]

What's that?

[D]

Dehydrated beer. That is the thing. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Right? Or is it just nips of beer?

[C]

Just in the little. Like in the little eyedropper. Ultralight things you can buy on grocery store.

[D]

Shantae joins the pod. And already Colin is talking about nips. I mean, come on, is that my fault?

[B]

Like alcohol nips. You know what I'm talking about.

[D]

Sorry.

[B]

Who's the filthy one now, Owen?

[C]

Finally, for once.

[B]

All right. We received the following email from Becky in response to our conversation about the Patagonia impact report a few weeks back. Becky apparently works for Tersys Solutions, whose CEO Peter Whitcomb, has appeared on the Rock Fight in the past. And Becky took some exception with something we said about the resale marketplace. And she wrote in, I want to pick a bit of a fight as your Patagonia and Viori show. As on your Patagonia and Vori show, someone mentioned that resale isn't profitable. This is 100% not true. We at Tersa Solutions have dozens of partners all turning a profit on their resale channels. Also, the data is in for 2026. Throughout multiple channels, resale is growing leaps and bounds over retail. So, Owen, I think this is something in reference to what you said. Is that correct?

[D]

Absolutely. And hey, listen, we love the resale channel. We're big fans of it here on the rock 5. It is growing by leaps and bounds. It is the future in many cases. But I would also say it is, at least from my experience, hasn't been terribly profitable. And the reason for that is just because consumers obviously expect a significantly lower price for the used items, but they're actually a lot more difficult to handle than new. Right. Because each one is a unit of one. And so each one has to be separately identified. Like you might not even know what it is. Right. You say you have to identify it, inspect it, photograph it, describe it. So all of it is tricky. And now obviously, the folks at Tersys, I'm sure, have done a great job putting together a whole process to do all that, but it's still a lot more work than just receiving a case of exactly the same thing. Right. So that's the first thing I would say. The second thing is that if you look at the publicly traded companies like ThredUp and the RealReal, they've never been profitable. Now, yes, they're getting more profitable or closer to profitability, which is great. And in some cases they're EBITDA positive, depending on the quarter. But bottom line, they're not making money in terms of brand stores. You know, I think some will talk about profitability, but really they're not fully burdening those stores. So, for example, they're treating what they're. They're treating the store credit or the gift card that they're paying the consumer for that product as a marketing expense. So that doesn't hit the profitability. Right. Or they're not talking about the marketing cost to drive the store. So I think you can get to profitability if you count things a little bit differently. So, for example, if your online returns are helping to drive your used business, if you just write off that inventory, so it goes to zero. So then again, the cost of the product is zero. And so, yes, then it's profitable. But if you really look at the overall thing, it is still. I stand by the fact that it's tough to make money if you look at all the costs that go into it.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's a scale thing. Right. I mean, so teresys. And I think this is what Becky is referring to they are the partner with Geartrade to kind of handle the business for them, the cleaning, the repair, to make sure things are ready to sell. I believe they've partnered with Code Epoxy in the past.

[E]

For those who don't know, they're partners with most of the biggest brands, yes.

[B]

They are a incredibly important player in changing everything. That kind of what Owen is saying. But we're still kind of in early days and frankly, the conversations I'm going to pat ourselves on the back, these conversations are what needs to happen to bring more visibility to it and continue to grow. That in addition to all the little efforts of specialty retailers offering their, you know, closeout and secondhand parts of their stores as well.

[D]

And I think the other part of the scale is having scale in terms of where the product is sold. So I think selling it on some subsection of the website for those brands typically doesn't actually move through or sell through the goods. You have to really have the backup of a bigger platform like Geartrade specifically to Outdoor or Thredup for the wider platform. And actually I think the new Codapaxi program through ThredUP is really interesting because they're clear out the closet program gives people Cotopaxi credit for anything that they send in. It isn't just Cotopaxi product and then it gets double exposed on Cotopaxi. At least the Cotopaxi stuff's on Cotopaxi, but the rest of it is double exposed on Thredup. Right. So it's reaching this much, much wider audience where you can get the sell through and then Cotopaxi is getting, you know, consumers who maybe bought something totally different getting a credit which obviously then they're going to use to buy a new product on Cotopaxi. So those are the kinds of programs where I think this all starts to work together and make make sense.

[B]

Yeah, I think the Tersys Gear trade partnership, the Thredup code epoxy, like Dave and I caught some heat. I think a little over a year ago we did an episode because there was this continuing trend of hey, we're a brand and now we have a resale section of our own website where we're reselling our own stuff. And it's like, yeah, that's, that's good. You weren't doing anything before, so good for you. But it doesn't really tip the scales towards what we actually need with the, you know, just sheer volume of excess we have in the apparel marketplace here. So the brands partnering with the Tersis or a Thredup that is a real meaningful step in the right direction here.

[E]

I was going to add on to that. I do think that it is a combination of these, of these scenarios but a brand agnostic program with tied to incentive is going to be the really much needed energy in the sector to move consumer behavior. And so I think that like you said, just the fact that you can start to blend brand when it's talked about the return or the, you know, the resale is going to be really important to this and I think brands are starting to catch on to that, that they can't have their own little walled gardens when it comes to resale piece of this.

[D]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. See Becky, same team. We're on the same team here.

[D]

That's right.

[E]

I was going to nitpick her nitpick though and she said that 26, 2026 is already locked up, you know, and showing all of this growth. We haven't even gotten there yet. We're projecting. We're projecting. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

[B]

I know we don't want to embrace any positive news early.

[E]

That's right.

[B]

So we've had the carpet pulled out from under us way too often.

[E]

Right. The second hand tariff is on its.

[D]

Way in the predictions.

[B]

The 2025 predictions morgue is littered with bad takes.

[D]

Yeah, I don't know who you're talking about, Colin. Certainly no.

[B]

No one on this.

[D]

Certainly not my Sierra take. No.

[B]

All right, well before we get into our preview of the running event, there was one news story we wanted to touch on. As it has become, as it has become clear that post their acquisition by Dick's Sporting Goods there are changes coming to Foot locker. So per SGB last week chairman of Dick's EdStack said on Dick's quarterly earnings call that when it comes to Foot Locker, quote, we need to clean out the garage of underperforming assets, end quote. Most notably, Dick's is expected to absorb pre tax charges between 500 million and $750 million as well as close a number of Foot Locker stores, the number of which has yet to be revealed. So Shantae, can you walk us through all this? You know you were.

[C]

Oh no.

[B]

Shanta, can you.

[C]

Right on that.

[B]

Rose. Owen, can you break all this down for us? I mean what's with the pre tax charges? That's something that was completely over my head about what that even is.

[D]

Yeah. So basically, you know, they paid for all these assets, right. Inventory, store equipment, yada yada that went on their balance sheet as part of this as part of the acquisition. So now that they're getting in there, looking at all these assets, they're like, eh, no, no, no. They're not really worth what we paid for them. So we're going to write them down. So is just a balance sheet transaction. There's no cash impact to the business here at all. So it's kind of cleaning things up a little bit. Now did. Was this a surprise to Dick's once they got under the covers? I don't know. You know, I was just going to.

[E]

Ask you how much of this is poor due diligence versus just the natural order?

[B]

That never happens.

[D]

Speaking from experience, that never happens with these sorts of acquisitions.

[A]

Never.

[D]

But what I would say is I think it's a much needed cleanup. And listening to the earnings call, I mean Ed was in classic form. He's a very decisive guy. Ed digs in and once he decides it's like, okay, we're not going to kind of milk this thing and try to move through this inventory. It's like, no, no. We're going to cut and move. Right. And he just didn't pull any punches. I mean basically this was really a huge I gu. Black eyed to the prior management of Foot Locker. Because basically what Ed said is that they have the wrong product that's merchandise poorly in bad store locations. I mean that in some like, you know, they were doing it.

[B]

In short, you.

[D]

In short, it was a shit show. Like he was like, like he used the term retail 101 when talking about this. The stuff that was. That's brutal. Right. So.

[B]

But there's no like. Well, thanks to the prior regime, we're excited to continue on the time honored tradition of Foot Locker.

[E]

Don't let the foot hit you in the ass.

[D]

Absolutely. But it was so really it's worth your time if you're a geek like me into this stuff to listen to the earnings call. But it does sound like a good chunk of that 500 and 700k is actually going to be an inventory write down. Okay. Because basically they're saying they've got all the wrong stuff. So we're going to basically flush it for a sense of sort of scale there. They had $1.7 billion of inventory on the balance sheet in August. So And I think we're talking about. But you know, they said it was like the majority was inventory. So maybe 300 to 500 million write down on a base of 1.7 billion. That's a shit ton of inventory that they're writing off.

[B]

Yeah. Where's all that going to go? Where does that all get liquidated? Sierra, they're called the on the phone.

[D]

To Sierra 100%, believe me. So, I mean, EdStack used the term jobber on the call, which is like ho, woof.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Yeah, that's a throwback, right?

[D]

I mean, so we're talking. So I think what's basically going to happen is that they're going to put a ton of stuff on sale here at the high point of the season. I mean, you may as well like, you know, fish while the fish are biting, take advantage. So they're going to see major discounts on the stuff that they want to go away for the next, you know, certainly through Christmas and then maybe into January, I would say. But then whatever doesn't move pretty early on. It's just going to get flushed because they've already been talking to brands about bringing in new product, you know, where they can fill holes. Right. I mean, there's only so much that's in the system, but they're going to need to make space on the shelves and more importantly in the back rooms. So they're just going to broom a whole bunch of stuff.

[B]

So yeah, it sounds like they want to move quickly. Like I said, they mentioned they want to be ready for back to school 2026 basically with whatever their new sort of rollout is going to be.

[D]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So I guess the big question is how many stores do they.

[E]

Hold on real quick. Go back to when you say when they're going to flush. Where does flush go and what do the brands think about this? Because it's not footlocker brand that's being flushed, it's branded.

[B]

Point.

[E]

Right. So what does that mean?

[B]

You sold us the wrong thing.

[E]

That's your fault.

[B]

Here's your chargeback.

[D]

Right.

[E]

I mean, I mean like when you say is this in the states, is this internationally, Is there going to be all of a sudden a run of, I don't know, white dunks in the Philippines just like just everywhere alongside the.

[B]

Super bowl loser T shirts?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, possibly. You know, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, $300 million in inventory isn't going to totally upend the whole market. But it's not going to be good news. I know that Dick's has been in contact with all the brands involved and I think they understand that, you know, it's going to be sort of a short term pain, long term gain scenario where, yes, we're going to have to burn through some of this stuff. But hey, guess what we're going to. That's going to create open to buy for you that you didn't have. Right. Because we need to replace it with stuff. So they're like. So the brand's like, yeah, well, we already sold that stuff. Okay, yeah, sure. Blow that stuff out. Oh, you're going to write a PO for $50 million? Sure.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

That sounds like a great idea. So I think there's going to be some of that. But the other interesting question, you know, on the earnings call was, well, is this actually going to undermine your existing Dick's business? Right. And basically the answer was, yeah, a.

[B]

Lot of shared brands.

[D]

A lot of shared brands. Exactly. And the answer was, well, no, because we only have good product and so the competing product is bad product. And therefore, you know, we at Dick's are perfectly assorted.

[B]

Exactly.

[D]

So. So no, it's not going to be.

[B]

How dare you insinuate. So now let us tell you about the new house of sport that's replacing Public Lands.

[D]

Yeah, right. Well, no, I think maybe it's going to. Well, and also the other thing through is that Dick's has its own liquidation channel too and Going, Going Gone and, and the. And their warehouse channel. So I don't know how much of it will actually go through that liquidation channel. Double Dipper.

[B]

They're gonna like buy from themselves. Like Going Going Gone is gonna submit a PO to Foot Locker for a bunch of dropped styles.

[D]

Yeah. At an incredible price. Right. An incredible deal. So, you know, they'll get it at 80 off money in that circle and then, you know, in the Going, Going Gone. So I don't even know how the transfer pricing would work. But yes.

[E]

What's the, what's the likelihood that Foot Locker becomes that channel for Dicks that it actually they downstream it and turn it into the Sierra?

[B]

They've got to be seeing it as a premium player.

[E]

They're going to go the other direction. I mean, like, of Sport is super investment in experience. I think we just saw that North Face dropped that. They're doing a big flagship open their big flagship in New York, you know, multi level, you know, 20,000 square feet. I mean, you think that that's where the Foot Locker piece goes to this?

[D]

I think the Foot Locker store footprint or the type of store looks, looks similar. Maybe they try to get maybe a little bit more off mall than they are today, but I think it stays in that sort of, you know, smallish 2,000 square foot footprint. But no, no, they want to go the other way. They want to go To High Heat.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Premium. Like the, they want to have.

[B]

That's the legacy brand. What a name you have as far as.

[E]

Right.

[D]

I mean, they want to be where the sneaker head wants to shop. Right? And what that means then is they want to have the high heat styles that this, that they, they can. So they go in and they're getting. When they walk into that Foot Locker, they want to be able to see all the coolest shit that's possible. Right. For that consumer. Not, you know, warmed over retreads of, of old styles that nobody cares about.

[E]

I mean, it is a locker. I mean, you could put stuff that you want to get rid of. I don't know, maybe Foot Dumpster might be the way to go for your downstream stream play.

[D]

Maybe that's their. Maybe that's the clearance channel.

[E]

That's right.

[B]

It's our stepchild over here, the Foot Dumpster. We don't pay much attention. This is Cinderella.

[E]

We're just moving product through it, right? Just moving.

[D]

So.

[B]

Well, let's wrap it up here so we can get to our running event preview. But I mean, I'm curious.

[D]

But to answer your question on the store count thing, I think it is tricky, right, to figure that out. But if I had to guess based on the comments, I would say 100 to 200 million of those write downs would be in store closing costs. Now it's tough to figure it out because like the write downs are their lease liabilities, their PP&E and other stuff. But typically these are smaller, older stores. So let's just say just round figures. We're talking about 400k per store between lease liabilities, all these other stuff, that's 250 to 500 stores. Okay. Out of a current base of about 2,300 stores. So we're talking upwards of 20, 25% of the stores.

[E]

Many stores.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

That's a lot. I mean, obviously the thoughts and you know, go to the people who are going to be impacted by this.

[D]

Absolutely.

[B]

25, 20, 300 doors. Especially if you're. If to your point, if they are looking to elevate the experience in the store, then they, they probably definitely have to. If, if that's the new model, then they definitely have too many stores. Right. So. Wow. Okay. Well, we'll be keeping an eye on that as, as it unfolds and see how this all plays out. And it sounds like it's going to all unfold pretty quickly here in the first half of 2026. So. Yeah, as the air cools and the trails beckon Lemz is ready to move with you. Lemz has new shoes like the Trailblazer Mid, the mighty Trail Thrasher and the insulated Brek Boot. Get your Lemz boots to get ready for the season ahead. And hey outdoor and running retailers, will you be at the running event and switch back this week? Well then you can see all the styles we just told you about as well as check out Lem's new running shoes and also Lem's recently expanded their wholesale sales team. You want to meet up with your local rep? We'll send an email to Colo. That's Coloems Shoes.com hey, make sure you tell them that the Rock Flight sent you Lems where less equals more. This one is for all the gear makers out there. You know the biggest barrier for killer new products is sourcing the right fabrics. Working with mills is a pain and too often you get stuck with whatever sort of fits. Well, what if we told you that it was a partner who works with the you to design, source and curate fabrics that enhance your product line? And that partner, it's Rip Stop by the Roll. Rip Stop by the Roll is your one stop shop for the perfect fabric solution to your next hit piece of gear. These guys handle the headaches and will work with you to develop or find the right solution. From yarn to finish fabric that will fit your design. They have the application experts and production partners that make your job easy. From cottage companies on garage growing gear to eight figure brand at rei. They've been around. They know what they're doing. And Rip Stop by the Roll simply wants you to build the best products and looking to source globally. They can do that. Want to find something domestically? They can do that too. Are you ready to learn more? Head to ripstopbytherolle.com to connect today. You know rockfighters Fjallraven isn't here to conquer mountains, tame rivers or beat the weather. We're here to go slowly, to tread carefully, and to cherish the visit. For us, the outdoor experience has never been a reason to victory. It's an ongoing journey to create equipment and memories that last for generations to come. Our mission is to inspire more people to move with nature. We do this by developing durable and functional equipment that never goes out of fashion. What we really want is to make it easier for people to enjoy spending time in nature on nature's terms. This is our passion. So let's use our vast experience and competence to help more people feel at home in nature. Because when they do, they will take greater care of it. Get started on your Fjallraven journey by heading to fjallraven.com today.

[A]

Thousand line and switch backs. Humming with the breakout shine. Cause we're going to run, run, run at the running event. Have fun, fun, fun Till the demo was spent. We'll switch direction toward outdoor perfection. Stock bar. Stock Keeping that connection.

[B]

There we go.

[C]

Wow, that is beautiful. Beautiful work.

[B]

Little impromptu rock Fight radio here as we get ready for the running event.

[C]

I feel more jazzed.

[D]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

Look, Dave needs things to do, guys.

[D]

I do, apparently. And here's me without my poodle skirt.

[E]

Right?

[C]

You still have a few days to get one before we get there.

[B]

Well, like we said, shortly after this episode is released, the four of us will be on our way to San Antonio, Texas to attend the running event and switch back. A little background. For those who may not know, the running event was launched in 2006 called calls itself North America's premier run and outdoor specialty retail conference and trade show. Just rolls off the tongue. The show started mainly as an education conference for running retailers with a smaller assembly of brands that has now grown into be a day of panels followed by a two day trade show. And then two years ago Tre added the Switchback section of outdoor brands to the show. The idea being to give run retailers more options outside of just purely running brands. That of course led to the launch of Switchback spring this past June, which we covered extensively here on the Rock Fight. So let's start broadly. Let's go around the horn. Actually, Shantae, let's start with you. Since you had to sit through our AR dicks conversation.

[F]

So many dicks.

[B]

So what, what are you looking forward to checking out at the running event?

[C]

I mean, well, this is actually going to be my first time at Tres, so I am just excited to marinate amongst all of the other running nerds. So that'll be very exciting for me. Um, I am very curious though how the, you know, outdoor feels like the ugly stepchild here. I mean it's obviously the focus is running. You got a little outdoor here on the side, a little spice. I'm just curious, is it going to.

[B]

Be a wait, ugly stepchild or the mistress? Which one?

[C]

Yeah, let's go with mistress. I like that better. Yeah, I mean, I'm just curious, is it going to be a seamless integration? You know, I think we were kind of talking off mic yesterday about does it kind of create an ombre effect of like really hardcore running then maybe you get into trail running and then you start going into, like, body glide and, you know, Clif bars. So, yeah, I think that'll be really interesting. I, you know, for me, honestly, I think outdoor is a strange category. I still don't get why. Because we're doing all of this outside for the most part, unless you're on a treadmill. But, yeah, I don't know. I'm curious about that. I'm also curious to see if it feels as congenial as Switchback Spring did. I feel like the size of that show is, you know, it's never going to be that small again. I think we know that as far as a standalone event goes, but it really felt like you could talk to anybody. You talked to everybody and you made real connections. So I'm curious to see if that vibe exists here.

[B]

Do you think you'll go home with, like, $2,000 worth of gear like you did at Switchback?

[C]

I hope so.

[B]

From a Gear Abbey point of view, is there something that you're looking for, like, in terms of how it applies to what we do over on Gear Abbey?

[C]

Oh, man. You know, I'm curious to see. I'm always interested in innovations. I'm always curious about sustainability, but really I'm looking for practical things for everyday runners. Because I think, yeah, we had Killian on the show, but he is an outlier in our audience.

[B]

No, everybody does what he does.

[C]

I know I just got finished running, you know, running 100 miles in two hours. So, yeah, I, yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see what kinds of things pop up that appeal to the everyday runner.

[A]

So.

[C]

And I think there will be a lot of it.

[B]

So I went to the running event during my pro bar days, which was more than a decade ago when the show was much smaller. I didn't get to see the exhibition last year. And, Dave, you're the only one on this call who got to see the most recent exhibition of the running event. So what are you looking. Looking to check out this year?

[E]

I'm looking for more of the same here. Like, I'm looking forward to the energy. Like, it is a definite callback to kind of the outdoor retailer days that our. Our folks know. You know, you've got the mega boothopolis going on with presenting brands. You've got the frenzy of free stuff and wanting handouts of excess. I mean, it's just really, there is such an energy of people doing business and being there. The promotional side is fully on display, so I think that that's always it's. Just, it's a great energy to walk into. And to your point, Shantae, how can outdoor, you know, borrow from that, bring from that? Are they going to learn and add to it? So I, I just, I think those things and then the other thing I'm really looking forward to seeing is the, how the factional rivalry within running is going to play out. Right. The road versus trail. Right. I think that we're going to be.

[B]

Gangs in New York style rumble.

[E]

Civil war is on and I'm here for it. And I just want to see, you know, how does it, how does it manifest everything we've been talking about? How does it manifest itself in the, you know, the ground zero of running promotion? Like, are we going to see big wall sized banners of trails? You know, are there going to be an f asphalt kind of movement? Like, just let's see where it goes.

[B]

One thing for all. And when I get to my part, it's a little bit more about the show itself. But I think one thing, when you do show up at these events, you can tell who it matters to the most, right? I mean like for example, Patagonia, not at Switchback Spring, they're at this event. So that kind of says to me like, hey, they, they show up here because they want to talk to the running audience, which they maybe see as a weak spot from the running and the endemic running world. As you reflect on last year, like, is this a meaningful event to like Nike? Did they have one of those boothopolises like where it was like multi. Yeah, right. So this, this is a meaningful event to the running world.

[E]

Last year. I'm going to call out Brooks, I'm going to call out Nike, you're going to call out Merrill. All brought it. Now I'm leaving others out. So this is not my comprehensive review, but those just made impressions on me in terms of booth size, material structure, environment. Like it's like. Yep, they're, they're, they're, they're bringing it.

[B]

So this is where Merrill brings in Merrell.

[C]

By Merrill, by Merrell. We're going to triple, quadruple this.

[E]

They're gonna, they're gonna have. That's right. They're gonna have four different booth floor plan spaces when you're only supposed to have two.

[B]

Merrell trade show brand now their product as they show up at trade shows. I like that idea. That's all they do.

[E]

That's exactly right. They're gonna have the free first five story trade show booth. It'd be great.

[C]

They're Gonna have to cut a hole in the roof of the convention center. It's gonna be really next level, literally.

[E]

Yep. Right? Next level, literally.

[B]

Owen, what do you think? This is your first time going, right?

[D]

This is my first time. And for me, I'm kind of fascinated because it is that outlier, which is a vibrant national industry show. Right. And really it is. I mean, you look at ispo, you look at or whatever. So, you know, it is that outlier. So I'm really interested just to understand. Try. Well, try to understand what makes it, um. If I were in the, you know, the or village. What. What is it? The leadership village. I would be sneaking into the show just to kind of figure out, okay, what. What is it that makes this thing tick? So that's really, really interesting. The other interesting thing, you know, is the looking at emerging brands on the run side and seeing how they live here. Because, you know, like, so. Yeah, like, does. Does tre have like an emerging brands section? Is that a thing? Or are they sp in between? And if we have the mega booths, is it that kind of like, redheaded stepchild. Here's my tiny 10 by 10 for this emerging trail running brand or this emerging running vest brand or whatever. And you're just sort of overshadowed, like people were back in the day. So kind of interested on that front. And then the whole switchback of it all. Having been to the standalone switchback, how does the stepchild switchback feel? Does it still feel energetic and cool and whatever else, or does it feel a little bit subdued, you know, surrounded.

[B]

By this bigger show that might bleed into my predictions.

[C]

Yeah. Get lost in the sauce, you know.

[D]

Right.

[B]

I just, you know, just to echo. And that's the first part we said is what I'm most interested in. Right. I think the. I want to see if what the enthusiasm, just the objective acceptance and enthusiasm of the show can be replicated outside of the running event. I mean, the trade show scene for the outdoors, I think it's. At best, you can say it continues to be unsettled. Right. There's a lot of. And I think a lot of that is due to the value of the proposition our outdoor shows make in a world where retailers and brands don't necessarily need a big national show to do business with each other. So I'm looking forward to talking brands and hopefully some dealers as well, about what makes this event a different animal. And is there a learning there that switchback spring or outdoor retailer or ispo to your point, zero and like, you know, can apply to their events now? As we look at the schedule, I'm going to get there a little early, so I'm going to get a chance to spend some time with the education days. You know, I know we, we were at the ones at Switchback Spring. Oh, and you sat on a panel. One of the education days. I want to get a sense from you guys, because that's the heritage of the show. Right. That is where they really was like, let's get the retailers together and help them learn together. And then also, oh, by the way, we brought some brands in that you can hang out with and now the brand part is really grown. But that's really the main focus of the show that people talk about the most. When it comes to the running event, do they matter? I mean, do you think attendance would drop off at this point if they didn't happen? Again, it's a heritage of the show, but in the bigger trade show conversation, is the education day a nice to have on the schedule to make it look like you're doing something, or does it really bring value to the show? Owen, what do you think?

[D]

I think it does, especially if you're tying the show into a national organization, which is the case here, because they're tied in with ria, the running industry association. So they've got a membership meeting, et cetera. So that is a key value as that one time a year where everybody gets to come together within that association. So that is cool. The other key thing then is, is it valuable content? Right. Is it just sort of endless panels of people who are just, you know, talking in generalities and platitudes, or are you actually digging into the real issues that are driving the industry, which unfortunately I don't see a lot of in a lot of these industry days.

[C]

Yeah, that's. I mean, I feel very similar. It's got to be substantive and that's, you know, I think there's a lot of chit chat, you know, constantly about diversity and let's get women and let's do sustainability. And it's just a lot of lip service. Let's do sustainability.

[B]

There's a T shirt, Dave.

[D]

Let's do sustain sustainability.

[C]

Yes, let's do it. But I'd love to see education days become a little bit more solutions oriented. I think of this, it's a journalism term, but I think of the idea of, yeah, we, we've identified the problems, I think, at this point, and whether that's pain points for retailers or for brands or for consumers, like, let's get into the solutions part of it now guys, we know what the problems are.

[B]

I think I sell to what I'm getting at. Like usually as an outside observer of someone who's not at a brand or with a retailer and I'm sitting, listening, put myself in the shoes of who's this, who they're trying to speak to and I'm like, what are my takeaways from this? That I'm like, oh man, that's great. I'm going to do that. Usually it's like, yeah, that was nice. Those people had. They had things to say, you know, and that's usually my.

[C]

Another graph.

[B]

Did you see the Venn diagram?

[C]

I did.

[E]

Hey, let's leave Venn diagrams out of this.

[B]

So on the flip side of that, we were specifically asked to stay for the whole show. Right. And so we could take part or at least observe the big retailer awards dinner on the last night of the show. And I think, you know, having been there a long time ago, Dave last year, neither. None of us have seen they end the show every year with the retailer of the year awards or the running awards show, whatever it's called. And it's a big soiree and it gets people to stick around and they hand out awards to these people who are very much invested in the running industry. So if the opening education day is sounds like it can be necessary from what Shantae and Owen just said. But if there's some work to be done, there is a can't miss it closer a potential to a show's success because I feel like that has always been a problem for trade shows is not having. What's the thing at the end that gets people to stick around?

[D]

Absolutely. I think three day shows or four day shows, the last day is always just a ghost town. Right. Everyone is in their booths waiting to break down because they haven't had somebody stop by in the last 10 hours. But even like Switchback Spring, a two day show, from what I heard we had left. But from what I heard the afternoon of day two was pretty sparsely attended. So I think this is the morning.

[B]

Was a little thin for being okay.

[D]

But no, I think having guys are super smart having it be a two day show, high energy both days and then you've got pillars on each end. The education day at the beginning, the awards thing at the end, everybody wants to come for the whole thing. You're not cherry picking days here or there. That to me just makes a ton of sense.

[B]

Yeah. If you have like you need to have that thing at the end because it Just having people leave and they will leave. If you had a one day train show by 11 o', clock, everyone would be gone. Right. I mean it's just like this is how it always goes. I mean Dave and I both, you know, worked plenty of booths on the brand side. You spend to the four of the four day show. You're right. A day and a half usually, like when do we get our pallets can get the out of here. But if you know, like, oh, tomorrow night is the thing that we're all actually here for, like what an interesting idea, then, then you can. The value is baked in that people are going to stay and you take away that opportunity for them to be like, oh, it got kind of weak at the end. Yeah, it didn't go. So last half wasn't that good. It's like, no, the whole thing was good because you were waiting around. Shantae, what do you think?

[C]

Yeah, going out on a high note, I guess. Yeah, I love the idea. I think it's. I think back to Switchback Spring and how we had the opening night party. And I always go back to, yes, people are coming here to get business done. You're, you know, making orders, all this stuff. But we're also here to connect. And I think it's partially, you know, people deepening relationships that exist, but also forming new relationships. And so this idea of bookending the event with two big social opportunities, you know, education day. But there is a party that night and then the, you know, the awards ceremony. It's this opportunity for you to continue connecting with people and to end on high note again. I think, you know, all these people that you don't know that you meet in those two days, then that last day everybody's loosened up a bit, we're all done, you know, in business mode. We can just enjoy the evening. I think it's a really nice way to wrap things up and keep everybody engaged. So yeah, I'm all for it.

[B]

Dave, anything you want to add there? Are you good?

[E]

No, I was just going to, you know, speak for the group of people that don't see an award show is a must attend type of draw. At the end of the, at the end of the show, Dave's ready to go home. That's just me. That's right.

[B]

No, I mean, and I agree with that. But if the, the whole thing of these trade shows that we talk about, right, is they're like, we gotta get the retail buyers there. A lot of times we're hearing that from the buyers, like, nah, I don't really need to be there. But if the awards are focused on the retailers, right. And now it's like we're handing out retailers a year.

[E]

10% of those retailers want to be there. The other 90 don't.

[B]

But what matters, Dave, is the post show surveys. Oh my God, it was great. They gave me an award.

[E]

See, I think there should be a second hoka party with the retailer awards. Now we're talking.

[C]

And that's. They should do the survey right after the party.

[E]

Right during. During the party, actually.

[B]

Ten drink minimum.

[F]

Minimum.

[B]

And here's your survey.

[D]

There you go.

[B]

This is the best party ever. I mean, trade show.

[E]

I love you, man.

[B]

Oh, I'm totally coming back next year. All right, well, it wouldn't be very on brand for us not to make some predictions or take some wild swings. So as we're all packing our bags and getting ready to head to San Antonio, let's go around the horn one more and make predictions for the running event gear. Abby, let's start with you. What do you got?

[C]

Oh my God. I was, I turned up a couple different predictions, but I'm actually going to lean into the one. I really think, I think that like one in every five conversations is going to be about how trail running is the new road running. And I think we're going to see that reflected in brands showcasing more trail oriented apparel and footwear and accessories. I think we're going to see it probably in some of the booths that they're going to lean into trail as their, you know, motif for the, the booth.

[A]

So.

[C]

And not just the brands you'd expect like Altra. So I'm pretty excited to see that as a trail running nerd myself.

[B]

Also Katherine Hepburn back from the dead at the running event apparently.

[E]

Totally.

[B]

Trail running is the trail running, isn't it?

[F]

I love that.

[C]

I love it.

[B]

Dave, what do you got? What are your predictions?

[E]

I have so many predictions. Call and none of them will come true. But.

[B]

Well, we all have to be accountable. We're going to record our recap while we're at the show.

[E]

Okay, well look, I told you before, shit's going down at the soccer like I can just tell you that, that, that is.

[B]

When did you tell me that that.

[E]

Is where, you know, I'm looking side eyed at the sock wall. I don't know what it is with walls in Texas, but I think this, the sock wall is where the energy's gonna be. So I'm just saying like the sock wall also too. I was kind of, I'm still thinking this may happen that the show will announce their official name change to Running Daze. But it will be Daze to avoid confusion with the outside festival, which I think is smart. Right.

[B]

And you know, new change in the outside festival.

[E]

That's right.

[D]

News. I hadn't heard that.

[E]

It's a little hip. Outside announced that they are changing the name of the outside festival to Outside days.

[D]

Without the Z seven days.

[E]

No, that's with D A Y S. They're a little more conservative in their nomenclature. I think here with days we can really kind of bring in a little groovier sense. I mean this is all about trail running these days.

[C]

Yeah. I mean you get the post run high. I know all about that.

[E]

Right. See, there you go. There you go.

[B]

But the pre run high.

[E]

The pre run high.

[C]

There are ways to run high.

[E]

Yeah, right. It really, it goes everywhere mostly and.

[B]

Legal in a lot of places.

[E]

But, but, but the I I one more here is this. I do think that the switchback booth envy is real and someone is going to bring it. Someone is going to.

[B]

Oh, someone on the switchback side.

[E]

Someone on the switchback is going to say at a. And I think that like we said last time the outdoors looked a little meager next to the running nerds. So I think that this year somebody's going to step up and make a mention worthy booth. So fingers crossed.

[B]

All right, Owen, you want to go or you want me to go?

[D]

So my prediction is that based upon the success of the TRE Awards presentation, how it is this bookend thing combined with their announcement of this deeper relationship with the oia, we are going to see diversified the shift. The show organizer announce a major awards push for switchback 2026 as the Outdoor Industry Awards. On that second day they're going to follow the same exact model. So that's my prediction. Now will they announce it at the show? I don't know. I may grill Kent and Christina during the live portion that we're at.

[B]

Oh, I think, I think we have a responsibility.

[D]

I think if they come back with, well, we're not ready to announce anything right now. Now I'm going to take that as a yes and that my prediction was correct.

[B]

I'll support that.

[E]

Yes.

[D]

Well done.

[B]

No, it's a moral imperative that you ask the question. Yeah.

[E]

All right, Colin, what's your prediction?

[B]

Okay, I have two. First, I'm predicting outdoor run posers.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

I think there's going to be at least three outdoor brands that don't really speak to the running category who show up with either ill fated running, marketing or products.

[C]

That sounds like.

[D]

So speaking about outdoor run poser. Sorry, just interject here. You've talked a lot, Colin, about the people that show up to outdoor shows looking super outdoorsy. They've got to wear their flannels and their hiking boots. Right. Do people show up to tre in like short, short running shorts and like little running. Running singlets? Is that a thing?

[B]

Dave, you were there last year. Did you see any of that?

[C]

Did you wear it?

[E]

I so want that to be true. I just. I so want that to be true.

[C]

You can make it true, Dave.

[E]

I can tell you can.

[C]

Where they get some knee high.

[E]

Nobody wants that. Nobody wants that at all.

[B]

There are three people on this call who want that date.

[C]

That's three people, and I think all the listeners.

[E]

Oh, my gosh, that's amazing.

[B]

I would take back every bad thing I've said about the outdoor community if. If that ended up being true. Like, okay, plaid shirts and chocos. Not too bad compared to what we're seeing here.

[D]

That's so awesome.

[E]

All right, so.

[B]

So no, but my outdoor poser thing, I think this is like the, the running equivalent equivalent of Steve Buscemi dressed as a skate punk saying, how do you do, fellow kids? You know, of like, you know, the outdoor people rolling into the running event, trying to be a running brand. So I'm going to take it one step further. I'm going to call, I'm going to make here my three predictions of who I think is the most likely to do this.

[D]

Okay?

[B]

Okay. And if I'm wrong, I will eat crow on our recap. But I think my number one choice is Prana because they are kind of identity list right now. They're very gappish and they're exhibiting at Switchback. So I could see them rolling in like, hey, we're a running brand now. Look at our running stuff. You know, I could see that happening. Number two, see to summit because I don't really think of them. I see they have a lot of stuff that I could see that runners using, but I can't. I could see them showing up, trying to brand themselves as a running brand.

[F]

I don't think so.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

I'm just saying it's, you know. And then number three is Berghaus, who's trying desperately anything to get accepted. You know, sorry to Shane, who was very, who was, as I said, lovely things about the podcast. We'll find out. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe apologizing. I think honestly, they want traction in the US Market.

[C]

And I think they can actually do it if they lean into not just snow, which I think they do. Is. Yeah, running makes a lot of sense to me. Trail running. Because they do. I. I tried on one of their little packs. I forget the name of it. They got all these great, like, wind shirts and things. That one might be the one most likely for me.

[E]

Yeah. I would say the trail. Isn't that as much of a stretch for Berghaus? So it's.

[B]

Right now their big marketing story is Oasis, so they're gonna have to pivot away from that at some point. Right. Cause, you know, the.

[D]

The.

[B]

The Oasis reunion story is getting old.

[D]

You didn't.

[E]

You didn't know that Liam Gallagher is an ultra runner now.

[B]

I'm sure he says that he is.

[E]

Right.

[F]

So I.

[B]

But.

[D]

So. And Patagonia isn't on your list. I would think Patagonia would be top of the list for that.

[B]

Patagonia's had a trail running line for a while.

[D]

They've been in the category, so they get a pass.

[C]

Shorts are the only ones that fit me.

[D]

Oh.

[B]

So the one that I did want to say is code epoxy, but I think I'm saving my judgment for their booth, which I'm. Like we said, we're sure they were going to be the most. They're going to win Dave's most improved award.

[C]

Do you think they're just going to put, like, a little sign with all of our faces on it and just as a bid to win our affection?

[B]

If they're smart.

[C]

Yeah, that's right. You guys still have a few more days.

[E]

Okay.

[C]

Rush it to the Kinkos.

[B]

My. My big prediction, which isn't relevant to the show, so I didn't want to make it. My only prediction is that this will be the last switchback at the running event. I think it has now become confusing. Right now you have switchback spring. Also, if we're in out for one of these outdoor brands, who wants to get in the running, why can't I just go exhibit at the running event? Why do I need to be part of switchback? I think it was a good idea to sort of draw in the outdoor element. I don't think you need it anymore. So I think switchback becomes its own thing. And the running back goes back to being just the running event. And if you're outdoor and you want to exhibit at the running event, then.

[D]

Run an exhibit at the running event. Is there going to be a Switchback winter then? As part of the corollary to that.

[B]

Prediction, that's a good question.

[D]

And does there need to be an even better question?

[B]

Right, That's a better question. Well, all right. Lastly, we didn't want to leave you guys short change today. So to end the show, we're sharing our final interview from last month's Goa Connect in Kansas City. Owen, Dave and I had the chance to sit down with Nathan Dopp, who's the CEO of America for Fjallraven and VP for Phoenix Outdoor. During our conversation, we got to talk with Nathan about the state of business as 2025 wraps up how they're planning for the future given the level of uncertainty the outdoor industry is facing, as well as how they've evolved to create a more flexible supply chain. Nathan's a super thoughtful leader and a great guy and we were fortunate to get a few minutes of his time. Plus, he brought us all Fjallraven products emblazoned with the Rockvite logo. So he earned himself a pass from at least two or three future rock slingings. And Shantae's gonna get hers at the running event.

[C]

Excited walk around like a that's gonna we're going back to the Sharks vs Jets here. This is be great.

[E]

Yes, we are.

[B]

Any, any thoughts on Nathan before we roll the interview winner?

[D]

Dave No, I think it was, it was a, it was a great conversation, you know, very thoughtful, I think. And, and you know, in, in a lot of these interviews you tend to get very sort of guarded question or answers to your questions. And I felt like it was just a pretty straightforward conversation.

[G]

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[B]

Well, we're here with the Rock Fight's favorite sponsor because he just hooked us up with some incredible swag. We're with Nathan Dobb, who's the CEO of America's for Fjallraven. Vp Phoenix Outdoor America Group ag.

[F]

No, the. The Global Group.

[G]

Global Group.

[B]

Sorry, you've quit the title.

[F]

It's a long sentence.

[D]

Yeah.

[F]

Yes.

[B]

Let's just start simply here. 2025. It's November. We're at Goa Connect. It's coming to a close. Interesting year.

[E]

Very.

[B]

Say the least.

[F]

They all are anymore.

[B]

How you doing? Are you doing all right?

[F]

I'm doing well.

[D]

Yeah.

[F]

You know, I just came out of a really nice luncheon the GOA put on and I would tend to concur with them that I feel like we've gotten to a stable place in, in the industry, especially with the specialty accounts and that, you know, maybe the future's bright. You know, depending on what happens outside.

[B]

Our 26 looking.

[F]

You know, I think it. Well, all, all seasons are challenging anymore. I mean, there's always something that we don't expect.

[C]

Expect.

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

And certainly, what do I say about that? The, you know, the tariff situation, the uncertainty and what's going on with that? I would prefer that wasn't the case, but I feel pretty confident. All, I think all the brands are feeling pretty confident right now coming out of.

[B]

Yeah. What, what, what is it that makes you feel confident? Because that was actually the first thing we're going to ask, right. Is like we just had the deal the Trump administration supposedly made with China. You know, it's always fingers crossed this is going to stick, all that kind of thing. You guys actually just had, you know, some good reporting coming out for, for Phoenix Group. What is it that gives you the confidence?

[F]

I think I feel confident. I think we feel confident because of our organization. I think the fact that we are not as driven or owned by, you know, a PE or, you know, not driven by that situation, which I understand the need for that in the, in the world and in the industry. But for us, it's nice to be able to make decisions based on what we think is best for long term. We're not in a short term situation and, and we're certainly not beholden to any investors who can help us drive our decisions. So we get to make our decisions the way we want to and acquisitions and tariffs and all those things. We get to make really, I think, thoughtful decisions around what we're going to do and what we're going to do next.

[D]

How have you handled price increases as it relates to tariffs. We've talked with a number of brands. Some have absorbed it themselves, some are passing it on. Some have done nothing so far. But those, those price increases are going to hit early next year. Where are you in all of that?

[F]

All of the above, I'd say. First of all, we started divesting from China sourcing six or seven years ago, and that was a myriad of factors. But so when this all started happening, I think we were fortunate that we didn't have as much being produced in China. Fall we absorbed in at all. Certainly we had some pretty unexpected blows around air freight and things that we hate to do. So.

[D]

Right.

[F]

But we just, we made the, I think, the right decision to absorb all that for fall spring. We are looking at some price increases. We're going to absorb some of it. We're going to increase prices a little bit. I think the biggest challenge I believe we face is just the uncertainty around the whole thing.

[B]

Right.

[F]

I have a warehouse right now that is putting new prices on about 580,000 units, all carryover product that, you know, we need to fix that price and get it to where it needs to go. And God forbid somebody wakes up on the other side of the bed and decides tariffs are a thing of the past and we have to go back now and fix it again. So the uncertainty is the biggest thing keeping me up right now.

[D]

Okay. So your chairman, Martin Norden, love his investor letters. Very outspoken guy. He must be fun to work for.

[F]

He's a fun guy. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And so he's talked about and been one of the few that really talked about this fact that retailers are trying to push more of the risks onto the brands. Right. The fact that, you know, the reorder percentages are going down, they want to chase a little bit more in season, which totally get it from the retailer's perspective. But it does put more risk on you. And he's saying that you're actually working to make your supply chain more agile to be able to address that changing risk reality. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[F]

Yeah. I think first of all, we are fortunate in that for Fjallraven and for Hanvog and in some ways and Royal, it's very much carryover business to begin with. So a Black Vita Pant, if we produce it this year and it doesn't sell this year, we. We feel very comfortable with it carrying over into the next year. Of course, we don't expect to price change all the tickets, you know, along the way. But, you know, you know, other than That I feel like the nature of our business is very consistent enough that we can feel comfortable in what we're buying, how much inventory we're carrying. So I think that gives us a leg up. We're not trying to reinvent ourselves every year.

[D]

Okay. The other piece that he's talked about is the fact that he really has called out E Commerce and basically said, you know what, what? E Commerce is basically a discount play. When it's discounted, it gets sales. When it isn't, it doesn't. And it feels like you're taking more of a hey, let's lean into brick and mortar approach. Is that a fair statement?

[F]

I think. Well, I've always thought specialty and specialty brick and mortar is the cornerstone and the most important piece of our business. We all need that to survive and thrive. So of course that's where we have a lot of focus. I know from past experiences and current experiences the majors are amazing and they can write such a wonderful PO for you and you know, change, change your business's life and all that. But I also know that the, the winds of change come along for those guys and, and they decide to go in different directions and so that can be a major blow the other way. Department stores run on a completely different cycle than the, the time cycle that we run on. They have different business models, so that's super challenging. So the only thing we can really count on is that specialty business. Then. I do think we have some really nice, you know, online retailers who I think are doing a tremendous job. But you have to choose really carefully and you have to have really great, strong, mutually respectful relationships so that they're not going to be discounting you all the time and they're going to run the business the way we need to be strong long term. I know for Martin and for the Europeans, they have a tremendous problem over there because they can't control any price. They don't have map.

[D]

Right.

[F]

They have no real teeth to it. So it's very challenging for them when somebody decides to just flood the market and they flood it cross country. So they'll go into other, other markets, they'll stay full price in their own market, but they'll put a bunch of product into somebody else's market. So it's a particular challenge for the team over there. So I think we're fortunate over here.

[E]

Wow.

[D]

Okay. So we actually have it better over here than. It's interesting. Phoenix is a portfolio of brands and in the industry we've seen a number of these multi brand companies, whether It's VF Corp. Divesting of brands. We just had some write downs at Columbia for a couple of their portfolio brands. But you guys are actually still buying. You just bought Devold, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. Talk to me about that. Is there still an appetite to continue to acquire brands?

[F]

I think we're always interested and we're always looking, but it has to be a very particular situation for it to be the right play for us. And Devold is the perfect brand for us to add to the family. They're very strong and something that we are good at but not great at. With Fjallraven, they have their own sourcing, they have sheep to shop process, where they have their own sheep farm and can really raise our expertise in that sector. And we've always wanted to have a base layer collection to add to the line and we've dabbled in that. But here's some people who have over 170 years of experience keeping people warm with wool. That's a perfect partnership for us. So we're not aggressively looking for new partners, but when it's something that's that perfect of a fit, it's a heritage brand, it's from Scandinavia. Beautiful team, beautiful product. It's just a really good fit for us.

[D]

So in that scenario then, will the Fjallraven US team basically help to launch that here? Because they were at the marketplace, we saw them there yesterday. So they'll just basically piggyback onto this existing infrastructure?

[F]

Yes and no. So there was a distributor taken in Canada who had started the business up there. They did a nice job getting it launched. So we will use our infrastructure and our back end and all of our storage strengths to help them launch in North America. And we're also looking at it for Latin America, which they're down there right now having a meeting about that. So our goal is to, with, as with everything, be thoughtful, be strategic about it. We're not going to race into the market. We're not going to try to buy business with discounting or any of the strategies that people can employ. We're going to launch kind of thoughtfully and I think fall 26 is when we'll be fully, fully up and running. We want to make sure that we're set. The infrastructure strat, we're ready to go when, when we really get going. So. But it's going to be a lot of fun.

[B]

So we were just chatting with somebody else who remained unnamed and I, you know, asked what their thoughts were for 2026 trade shows. And he's, and he, his comment was, oh, it's a show. And you know, I think that's a, as much as, you know, we talk about it a lot and it's not an unfair assessment. You know, as you look ahead to 2026, what's the plan for the, for the brands you work with? Are you, is there anything that's interesting about the trade shows that are out there now? As the, as the scene sort of evolves, is anything sort of pulling ahead in terms of like adding more value to the brands you work with?

[F]

Well, I, I have a probably unhealthy love of trade shows. I, I, I think they're like, it's one of my favorite things.

[B]

We kind of all do well.

[F]

Just like the, the energy and the passion and the, the getting together with folks and, and you know, having that glass of wine and find out what's going on in the industry is I miss the big old, you know, the big old days. I miss spending six months coming up with a new booth idea and building a big showcase to the brand and all that. That said, I think those days are pretty much in our past, at least in the near term. I think shows like this GOA with, they're incredibly efficient, incredibly well run, everybody comes to work and get things done. I think that's amazing. I did go down to, to switch back and I think they're doing a really nice, you know, job down there. We're certainly going to take a look at that. And I'm always interested in what OR is doing. I mean that, that is the, that's the place where we all grew up. And so I, I certainly am pulling for them to figure, figure out what they want to do next. That said, I think I was probably the last major brand to pull out of or and I probably will not go back in until I see a serious momentum shift towards that show is reestablishing it. I also don't really want to spend a million dollars a year on trade show booths. So I think we've all learned to reallocate that money.

[B]

I think we all sort of took it's 2025. So we fast went back in time 10 years and looked at our marketing budgets and the line item expenses for trade shows. We'd all gag a little. Probably as fun as it was.

[D]

Yeah, that line item needs to go to podcast advertising 100%.

[B]

Yes, but you just said, you know, you really focus on brick and mortar when you're talking to retailers. Like, what are you hearing from the field. What are they saying about this? I mean they do, they share sort of our brand driven enthusiasm for the get together or is it more of a take it or leave it and sometimes they show up and other times, you know, the regional shows are all I need. Is there, is there even a consensus?

[F]

I think they feel like they get what they. Because they've all triaged and they've all become so much more conservative and they're trying to be more safe with their own investment and time, money. A lot of people have smaller teams out there, especially in the specialty shops. So I think it's a. They may want to go, but I just, I think they have to justify it and it's hard for them to get on a plane and leave their shops and I completely respect that. So it's on us to make sure that they have a really efficient trip and that it works for them based on that.

[B]

You know, what is it that you guys can do to help it make it easier for the retailer to make those decisions?

[F]

Well, I think, I think we have to show up where they are. I mean we have to meet them, meet them on their own ground. So if G OA is happening, we're going to be here, regional shows, we're going to support them every way we can. Our amazing agencies and teams out there, the field reps, I try to give them every tool they can possibly have because they're the eyes and ears out there and they're the ones who have to be motivated and get out there and show the shops and support them in every way they can. So it's just a matter of meeting these people where they need to be, be met and giving them what they need.

[D]

Folks may not know the whole Phoenix world and everything that Phoenix is into and the fact that actually Phoenix is a big retailer in the European outdoor market. Would Phoenix ever consider getting into retail in the US market?

[F]

I would say no. I think I'd be lying if we haven't looked at it a couple times. I think for all the reasons, you know, I think this market I have no interest in competing head to head with especially retailer if I, if I can help it. So then who am I competing with? Shields and REI and you know, Dick sporting guys like they're so good at what they do. So I believe we're very good at what we do in Europe and I think, I think we have other things, we have a lot of other things to do before we start getting into that business and I don't know that I need to Sit on both sides of the table with all the other brands and ask them for discounts and you know, can I, can I bring that into my shop?

[D]

So you got enough on your plate?

[F]

I've got enough on my plate. And I think, I think we've got, we've got a lot of growth to get before we get to that spot.

[D]

Okay, gotcha.

[E]

Producer Dave jumping in here, I couldn't keep quiet. I know we're talking a lot about the structure and the business here, but let's talk about the brand just in it. You guys have been on a run that's a long time. Like in just steadily building, building. And I'm going back to, you know, look, there are these little packs that catch and then all of a sudden now I see packs everywhere and where usually the trend goes up and it goes down and those packs would give way to kipling bags and it would be over.

[F]

Yep.

[E]

What do you think? What was what, what helped the brand pull out of that and continue the growth and expansion in the US market?

[F]

Oh boy, I could give so many answers. I'd like to take all the credit. Okay, we can do that based on.

[E]

The merch that you brought us in.

[F]

That it's all in the, in the theme. But of course a lot of it is luck and a lot of it is the harder you work, the luckier get kind of mentality. But I think just as Konkin was slowing down, I mean Konkin was an incredible launch mechanism. I mean for that to take off the way it did and to expose as many people as it did to the brand is tremendously fortunate. And we tried very hard to manage that cleanly and for as long as possible. But just as that was slowing down, the rest of the brand really caught on and people started seeing the pants.

[E]

And they started seeing, okay, was it the product mix? I mean you guys don't do a ton of advertising or kind of external communication piece, but all of a sudden now every hip quarter of a city has a Fjallraven shop. And like you said, this product mix go. I just interesting in terms of the strategy behind that, I think the product.

[F]

You know, you're right, we don't. We're not a marketing driven company. We're a product driven company. A lot of the products in our line that are popular today are 30 and 40 year old styles. So I think there's something to be said for just that. That resonance that people found in the quality and the craftsmanship and the effort that went into those products. And then keeping that kind of. And we have to reinvent ourselves a.

[D]

Little bit as well.

[F]

Because even, even in that the heritage of the brand was not to update a successful line or to add colors, just to add colors. Like that's not really the Swedish way or the way that Fjallraven operated. So we know we need to keep things fresh in the market. So we're starting to learn that and we're looking for ways to address different sectors of the market. We know that we need probably something approachable for the younger consumer. We're very expensive and frank premium.

[E]

Well, it's. From an American perspective, it does seem like that most people come became aware of a Fjallraven as more of a mainstream product. Yep. Yet it's really this core specialty kind of brand. And so that's usually those two aren't. Usually that's not two way street.

[F]

Yeah, right.

[E]

Usually it's a one way street.

[F]

It's, it's special in that way. And I, if, if, if we're guilty of anything, we probably try to do too much all the time. Right now we're, we're trying very hard to create really, really beautiful PFAS free Gore jackets for the high end winter consumer and rain use. But at the same time we're looking for ways to expand into that a little more approachable. Price still has to be incredibly value present, has to be very durable, sustainable. But try to find ways to get into that kind of more lifestyle look. Yeah, it's got to be cool.

[B]

So how's that, that awesome backpack you guys put out with, you know, with the wooden stays and stuff? Is that doing well?

[F]

It's, it's, you know, it is really resonating. I knew it was cool because my brother in law who's a geology professor saw that pack and just grabbed it and gravitated to it and he's like, this is what I want for Christmas. This is what I'm going to take in the field when I go to Alaska.

[B]

That was Owen and I at the Outdoor Market alliance, the media event. And we're like just. I kept picking it up and I'm like, I kind of just want to wear this thing around. It's just a great product. So is it, is it res. Is it fine?

[F]

You know, when something's great because everyone in the office wants one, everybody starts wearing it or has one of those. I just love that, I love that whole thing about the product team when they come up with a window like that.

[D]

Well, and that's what I've always loved about Fjallraven from the very beginning with Miz show, when we brought you guys in was just that I am. I am a Phil Raven. So off mic here, I was called a fanboy. But. But I am, because it's the brand, actually, that I usually use as my example of when you cover up the logo, can you still say who it is? And FJo Raven is the example, but that pack is the perfect embodiment of that, which is to say only FJo Raven would have done this pack, as opposed to this could have been any brand. So totally love that. And I think it's just a great example of a brand that knows who it is and where it comes from and that it just shows in the product.

[F]

And I love that you've said that because you're not the only one who's. Who said that in the past. And I think that's where we. When we really are in our groove. It's that kind of product that is recognizable and has the feel and the look and the. And the durability that we talk about and the sustainability that we talk about. And that, you know, in some ways limits you because you can't just make anything and you can't chase markets.

[D]

But I can tell because. Because I can tell that there are those conversations that happen where it's like, we should have an xyz. And then somebody, I think, internally says, well, how do we make a Fjallraven one of those? And if we can't make a real, then we shouldn't do it.

[F]

Because then it's just like it happens to us. It just happened a few years ago. We decided we really needed a less expensive technical pant. And so we, the team created this pant. And then when we all saw. Saw it, we started adding things back in. I was like, well, it's got to have this and it has to have this and. But that fabric's not very good. And by the time they added all the stuff back in, it was right back to where it started.

[D]

So.

[F]

And. And you have to be okay with that. You have to say for us to make things the way we want, we've got to. It's going to have to be at a certain level and it's going to have to cost a certain amount of money. So.

[B]

Well, this is where the contrarian me would want to. On something you guys are doing because we're just like, you're lavishing praise, but you brought a sweet, sweet swag. So wrap it up. But thank you so much for taking a few minutes.

[F]

My pleasure.

[B]

It's been great to chat with you. Thanks for the support. As everyone knows, F Raven sponsors the podcast, but that's okay. That's not why Nathan's here. He's here because he wants to talk about what's going on in the industry. So thanks for. Thanks for your time.

[F]

And I have to say, we all appreciate you guys doing what you do because it's. It's nice to have a voice that's keeping an eye on the industry and sharing back what's happening out there because we do feel disconnected. So you guys help. You're helping us all stay connected. So I appreciate that.

[B]

All right, well, that's the show. We want your emails. Actually, I have to play both sides here. We want your Gearab emails and we want your Rock Fight emails. My Rock Fight and [e-mail]. rock Fight's a production at Rock Fight LLC today with episode produced by producer Dave art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. Big thanks to Gear Abbey herself, Shantae Salibar for dropping in with us and for going to Texas with us. We're going to hear more from her a bunch over the next week. And also for Owen Comerford, I'm Colin True. Thank you for listening. And like always here to take us out and send us to Texas, it's Krista Makes with the Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fight.

[A]

Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight welcome to the Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight welcome to the rock fight Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock flight Ride flight Rock fight welcome to the Rock fight Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.