Outdoor Industry Buy or Sell: Patagonia, VF, Trail Running and More!

Summary

The Rock Fight: Outdoor Industry Buy or Sell – Patagonia, VF, Trail Running and More!

Podcast Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Colin True
Guests: Owen Comerford and Producer Dave

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Rock Fight takes a candid and often humorous look at some of the biggest trends, challenges, and brands shaping the outdoor industry. Through the "Buy or Sell" game, host Colin True, consigliere Owen Comerford, and Producer Dave dissect the state of powerhouse companies like Patagonia and VF, weigh in on market forecasts, gear up for trend predictions in footwear and trail running, and don’t shy away from roasting outdoor industry sacred cows. Expect direct talk, laughs, the occasional rant, and genuine community spirit—more campfire than boardroom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Industry Vibe Check & Email Fodder

• Start of Show [03:15]
  • After lampooning “eco” marketing with a gag newsflash about Planet Earth divesting polyester, the team launches into the realities facing outdoor brands.
  • Listener engagement: They discuss their recent “F-Marry-Kill” poll on The North Face, Patagonia, and Arc’teryx—emphasizing the show’s irreverent, honest audience connection.
  • Notable Quote [06:04]:
    “Arc’teryx. Sure, he’s a nice enough guy, he has a cool apartment and will take you out to a fancy dinner, but deep down inside, he’s just a regular dude that’s overcompensating for who knows what. Patagonia ... he’s a good guy at his core, and will stand the test of time… The North Face… peaked 15 years ago and hasn’t done anything to better himself since.”
    — Listener Matty

2. Outdoor Retail Outlook – Clouds on the Horizon

• Market Trends & Consumer Sentiment [07:01–12:14]
  • Recent industry news signals a rough Q4 ahead: inflation, declining consumer sentiment, anticipated tariffs, shifts away from products toward experience-based gifting, soft jobs market.
  • Owen Comerford calls out the sector’s exposure to discretionary spending:
    “We are a discretionary purchase. So when you look at, you know, tariff driven inflation ... that hurts.” [07:49]
  • Dave highlights the impact of public sector layoffs and government shutdowns:
    “The job market is certainly not indicative of a recovery. And ... the sectors that have been hit hardest... fuel outdoor spending... I don’t know how that can positively impact us.” [11:19]

3. The Youth Are Alright? Shifting Brand Preferences Among Teens

• Teen Survey Insights [12:15–15:07]

  • Teen preferences are moving away from Lululemon and Vans, towards Adidas, New Balance, and On/Asics.

  • Hot takes on trend cycles—brands like Crocs and Stanley are on the decline, but “comfort items” may simply cycle into new forms (barefoot, chunky, etc.).

  • Notable Moment [14:22]:
    “Dr. Pepper is the number one soft drink. … and that Adam Sandler was considered the top celebrity. … These teens, they know a thing or two.” — Producer Dave

  • Colin's mini-rant: Puffin Drinkware = environmental “disaster” and a symbol of aimless outdoor accessory branding. ["Don't tell me you're an outdoor brand. You're not... you're just making a bunch of crap that doesn't matter.”—15:36]

4. Lightning Round: Retail Survival, Shutdown Shenanigans, and Squeaky Shoes

• [19:16–23:57]
  • Rutabaga Paddle Sports: Instead of closing, is seeking a buyer, possibly an encouraging template for other brick & mortar outdoor retailers.
  • Government Shutdown: Yosemite’s lawless moment inspires hypothetical “run & gun” unpermitted photoshoots.
    “What can you do if they’re closed, but no one’s enforcing rules? Run and gun, baby.” [21:12] — Dave
  • On Running Lawsuit: Plaintiffs claim their shoes “squeak.”
    “We would have had some squeaktastic emails... create like a squeak symphony.” [22:02] — Owen

5. Buy or Sell: Outdoor Industry Brands, Products, and Trends

• VF Corporation — Buy [27:07]

  • Colin sees a contrarian opportunity: “Buy low, right? … TNF is the steadiest Eddie the industry has... Vans is going to come back... Timberland is going to come back... VF has already shed a bunch of pain points.” [27:26]

• Columbia — Buy [28:30]

  • Owen applauds its approachable price, freedom from “core” gatekeeping, and innovative marketing: “It frees them up to not worry about offending the core... they have a more affordable price point... zero debt…” [28:39]

• Trail Running — Buy vs. Sell Debate [30:56]

  • Dave: Buying for innovation and brand momentum—“It's always going to be an innovative kind of product category.”
  • Colin: Selling as it’s possibly peaking—“Right now, the trail running is about as high as it could probably possibly get. It is the category du jour.” [32:41]
  • Extended debate on whether trail running’s mainstream moment is a bubble about to burst or still on the ascent.

• Patagonia — Sell (Owen) [36:44]

  • Owen’s most provocative take:
    “Patagonia… it just feels a little old, a little quiet. Where is the brand that had a site takeover with the message the president stole your land? … A carefully worded op-ed in Time Magazine is not going to cut it.” [36:57]
  • Hosts agree Patagonia seems to be playing it safer, with less edge and visible leadership than before.

• Tumbler Category — Sell (Dave) [40:30]

  • The insulated drinkware space (Hydro Flask, Stanley et al)? “A dime a dozen,” says Colin. “There are a million options now.... The tumbler is dead. Long live the tumbler.” [41:22]

• REI — Buy (Colin) [42:07]

  • Despite frequent mockery, a “boring” reputation, and operational turmoil, REI’s market importance is undeniable.
  • “They're not going anywhere. And if they did go anywhere, our industry would have a very real problem.” [42:25]

• Grassroots Connect — Buy (Owen) [44:06]

  • Owen endorses this trade show’s model: private, relationship-focused, and a source for discovering new brands.
  • Suggests ending with happy hour where “all the black curtains get pulled back” for more open product discovery. [45:28]

• On Running — Sell (Colin) [45:28]

  • Growth is impressive, but Colin is unimpressed with the core tech and skeptical about sustainability of “clean, preppy” style.
    “Their midsole technology, regardless of the squeak, is ‘meh’... They're going to be less relevant in conversations we have in the outdoor industry…” [46:03]
  • Dave counters that On’s multi-sport strategy will keep it relevant beyond running.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On why consumer sentiment matters:
  “We are a discretionary purchase... so when you look at, you know, tariff driven inflation... that hurts, obviously much, much lower consumer sentiment, that hurts…” — Owen [07:49]

• On hype vs. reality in trail running:
  “There are definitely loud voices out there that are saying trail running, it's like Kickboxing in the 80s Sport of the future…” — Colin [33:14]

• On Patagonia’s voice fading:
  “Leaders get out in the front and maybe you take some bullets, but you will be leading to do that. You don’t lead from the middle of the crowd.” — Owen [40:08]

• On REI’s “C+” performance:
  “Historically it’s always been kind of a C plus outdoor shop... I say that emphasizing their importance about why, how they need to stay relevant...” — Colin [42:26]

• On every insulated tumbler looking the same:
  “You can get an insulated vessel to put your water in at... go to 7-11. You could probably buy one...” — Colin [41:34]

• On On Running’s visually iconic shoe:
  “What I love about On is just the visual tech of it all to where people can see an On shoe from halfway across the airport concourse and you know it's on…” — Owen [48:02]

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Segment Timestamps

• [00:01] Satirical “Planet Earth dumps polyester” news cold open
• [03:15] Team introductions & F-Marry-Kill (Patagonia, North Face, Arc’teryx)
• [07:01] Industry economic woes: data & commentary
• [12:15] Teen preferences & trend-cycle talk: Crocs, Stanley, Puffin Drinkware
• [19:16] Lightning Round: Rutabaga, Yosemite shutdown, On Running squeak lawsuit
• [27:07] Buy or Sell: VF, Columbia, trail running, Patagonia, tumblers, REI, Grassroots Connect, On Running
• [49:27] Parting shot: Study finds road cycling more dangerous than mountain biking (spoiler: cars)
• [51:10] Wrap up & credits

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Tone & Style

• Candid, sardonic, conversational, often irreverent
• Deep industry knowledge but “around the campfire” authenticity
• Willingness to question beloved brands and challenge both hype and groupthink

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

If you want a pulse check on the outdoor retail industry’s current mood—realistic, occasionally grumpy, but always passionate—this episode offers a frank, community-driven rundown. You’ll get honest skepticism about the frothiest trends, reminders not to count out (or over-hype) the legacy players, and a sense that the only thing more evergreen than a Patagonia jacket is the need to cut through the BS. Expect laughs, some nerdy gear talk, and plenty of debate about where to “buy” and “sell” your loyalty—for products, brands, and cultural momentum alike.

Transcript

[A]

This just in. Breaking news from the Rock Fight. In a stunning development that has rocked core outdoor enthusiasts from Midtown Manhattan to Sand Hill Road, Planet Earth, the primary shareholder, has announced its intention to divest all holdings in polyester based outdoor brands. Sources close to the planet report increasing frustration and complaints that the relationship had become toxic. It's not a great look for me to be associated with billions of dollars of brightly colored jackets that shed enough microfibers to choke a pod of whales, earth said in a filing statement. It's unknown how this will affect larger markets, but it's rumored Mars is exploring a long overdue decoupling from Elon Musk.

[B]

All right, while that may not be true, you know what is true? Ibex Marino is as home in your shop as socks and sandals. We're talking authentic heritage, real sustainability, privately owned and of course, premium performance that has become legendary. From everyday essentials like the goatee to expedition ready pieces like the mammoth hoodie, Ibex has a premium merino lair ready to outfit any of your customers. Schedule some time with the Ibex team at GOA Connect in Kansas City this November. Ibex Premium merino, not polyester.

[C]

Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock Fight.

[B]

Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True, and joining me today, you'll have to buy high because they'll never be low. It's the consigliere Owen Comerford and producer Dave. What's up, guys?

[D]

Hey, Mr. True. How are you?

[B]

Oh, enthusiasm for an intro. All right.

[A]

Yeah, it's all that good news out there that's got us going.

[D]

I'm bathing in the good news right now.

[A]

Bathing in it, right?

[B]

You're just dripping off of us. Right, guys? So much to talk about on the good news front. Yes, well, before we do that. Cause today we are going to be talking about some stories that come out of the outdoor industry over the past week, as well as playing a game of outdoor industry buy or sell. But first, some programming reminders. We never want you to miss an episode of the Rock Fight. In fact, we're counting on you never missing an episode of the Rock Fight. So please click follow on the podcast app you're using right now. Make sure to come back on Thursday to hear a new episode of Gear Abbey. Not on this podcast feed, but on the Gear Abby podcast feed, host Shante Salibair answers all of your burning outdoor questions. You can also write to [e-mail] and Dave's right. Now Dave's gonna tell you all about our newsletter. Go ahead, Dave.

[A]

It has a lot of words.

[B]

Not this week.

[A]

Not many. No. Right? No. But no. Take Rock Fight to the next dimension. Subscribe to the news from the front. Right. Semi weekly newsletter Rockfight. Co sign up. Be regaled in glory and Owen.

[B]

How can our listeners get in touch with us here at the Rock Fight.

[D]

Now, just to keep up with gear, Abby, they should email us [e-mail] they can also reach out to us on LinkedIn. Just search up Rock Fight or on Instagram where we are. RockfightCo. All one word and send us a DM.

[B]

We are. I think we may have won the email battle this week, guys, because like we were alluding to on our newsletter, this week was very simple. If you're a news from the front subscriber, you received it and it was just simply a game of F Marry Kill. That's all it was.

[A]

Yeah, we.

[B]

We decided, you know what? We're going. I was having a conversation with somebody else and they're like, that'd be funny to do something like that. I'm like, you know what? We're gonna do that right now. So Dave and I put it together. I want to read some of the responses. Cause the choices for f marry to kill were the North Face, Patagonia and Arcteryx. We had some interesting responses, but before I read them, guys, do you have a response? Who are you gonna f marry kill in those three?

[D]

Oh, that's so hard. Because I would never wanna kill any outdoor brand. So I'm not even gonna go there.

[B]

Hours of audio that suggests otherwise.

[D]

Come on.

[A]

I believe later on today's episode we'll be exploring some of that possibility.

[D]

I was trying to think, you know, f marry well, you know, like, who is more effable? And so, you know, Arc' teryx is so fucking sexy. I was thinking arc', teryx, but the reality is I've married Arc'. Teryx. I still have the same Makai jacket I've had for 10 years. So I guess I married and maybe I effed arcturks, so I don't know.

[B]

Dave, do you have a response?

[A]

I was going to let the respondents because my listing is so what the rest of the respondents are.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, guys, listen, it was a tough day for the North Face.

[A]

Yeah. Colin. I think this one kind of just plays itself out naturally. This one seemed like it just. And I think from the Responses we got, I think that kind of reinforces.

[B]

That, yeah, we're going to read 2 of the responses, but 83% of respondents killed the North Face.

[D]

That's Come on, guys.

[A]

But yes, who'd they marry?

[B]

Okay, well, there was some back and forth on that. I think it was a little bit of Owen's inclination of a lot of fucking of the arc teryx going on. But the two responses I need to read, which were just great, was one from listener Matty, who f'd arc', teryx, married Patagonia and killed the North Face. And she writes, here's my reasoning. Arc'. Teryx. Sure, he's a nice enough guy, he has a cool apartment and will take you out to a fancy dinner, but deep down inside, he's just a regular dude that's overcompensating for who knows what. Patagonia, who she marries. He's a good guy at his core and will stand the test of time. He has a lot of friends and that's always a good sign. He's not trying that hard to get people to like him and that's marriage material. And then poor the North Face. He was the popular guy in high school and honestly, for good reason. But now that he's a 30 something, he still thinks and acts like he's cool, but really, he peaked 15 years ago and hasn't done anything to better himself since.

[D]

That is brutal, Matty. Oh, Jesus, Matty.

[A]

That was solid, though. Solid insight. Very solid, solid insight.

[B]

The only other one I want to read is from Jacob who wrote this is pretty easy. Fracteryx marry Patagonia, kill the North Face. But if I may, can I consider offering the group polyamorous relationship proposition and potentially keeping all three in rotation?

[A]

So modern.

[B]

Yes, I think that's what. Yeah, that's what you were leaning towards, but that was fun. We'll do that again. We have to do the emerging brand f marry kill.

[D]

Okay, wow.

[B]

All right, let's get into some topics today. Not to start also with doom and gloom after having some fun there. But multiple stories this week are painting a picture of a tough Q4 leading into 2026. Credit to SGB for each of these stories. First with Sir Cana. Is it circana or circana? Potato, potato. Does it matter?

[A]

Sure.

[D]

Good question. I don't know. We'll have to have them. It makes me think of the bottle of cicada.

[A]

I can't help but think of cicada. And I'm just like, it's this infestation.

[B]

Like, like no, Circana is warning of invisible inflation as unexpected demand that appeared in the middle of this year wanes. Then Deloitte reported that US consumers have their worst economic outlook since 1997. And then the Michigan Consumer Index, which we referenced, I think last month dropped another 0.1% this month, marking a 22% year over year drop for that index. Oh, and this is obviously something that we've been talking about for the better part of this year. And it now seems that the reality that you and other pundits have predicted is at our doorstep. I'm assuming when it comes to this one in particular, it doesn't really feel very good to be right in this case. Is that fair?

[D]

First of all, first of all, thank you for calling me a pundit. That's, you know, I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, but unfortunately, yeah, I mean the data points, they all kind of point in the same direction, which is, you know, pressure on discretionary items. And that is what the outdoor industry are. We are, we're not, you know, we're not food, you know, we're not household supplies. We are a discretionary purchase. So when you look at, you know, tariff driven inflation, which is pulling spend, you know, into those non discretionary categories like food, that hurts, obviously, much, much lower consumer sentiment, that hurts. And then finally, what we're seeing in some of these surveys is people are planning to move the gift giving that they are going to do further away from products and into experiences. So all of those things really, it doesn't look good.

[B]

Is there any chance they're just wrong?

[C]

Sure.

[D]

No, I think that's.

[B]

Fingers crossed.

[D]

Yeah, it's a fair question because, you know, like for example, this Deloitte piece is based on a survey of consumers. Right. Obviously the, the, the consumer index is also a survey of consumers. If you look at actually Deloitte, they came out with their forecast for Q4 and they said it was going to be up 1 or 2%, which is weak by the way. 1 or 2%, usually 3 to 4 is considered average or a healthy Q4, 1 to 2 is, is not great. So, so yes, I think there's always the chance that, you know, consumers are saying that they're pissed off and they're saying they're not going to spend on gifts and you know, rubber meets the road and you know, Nana still gets her sweater, you know, So I, I think who, who knows? But it just, it just doesn't feel great though.

[B]

So where do you think we will end up though? And when do you think we'll be in the worst of it.

[D]

Well, I, I do think we'll be down in Q in Q4. So I was originally thinking like 2 to 3%. Now maybe it might look more like 4 to 5%, which again versus the average of 3 to 4% is bad. 5% down would be bad. So that'll be Q4. What that will mean though is we'll probably have a ton of clearance for Q1 and if the snowy weather that they're predicting for the north comes to happen, then I actually think Q1 will be okay. Unfortunately, it's going to be driven by clearance, but I think that the top line will be reasonable. The big question for me is what does the critical Q2 look like next year? That's when we get more full price sales. We get people back into buying gear and outdoor stuff. Will the consumer show up? I don't know. My concern is that Q2 is when we'll really start to see the true tariff impact on pricing here. And so, you know, even if we are, if we do manage to maintain sales, which I think will be under pressure, we're going to see less units just because of the, because of the inflationary pressures.

[B]

Oh, and by the way, another threat of putting China back at 100% tariffs like a week ago. Right. So the chaos continues on that front. You don't know. This is all based off of what we know today. That could change at any moment.

[D]

Exactly. Or, or it could go back to nothing. Who, who knows? And same thing with India. You know, I mean, I've got multiple companies that are dealing with that where it's, you know, in some, some companies move from China to India thinking that India was the saf because India was pally with the administration until they didn't respect the fact that Trump should have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize for bargaining between them and Pakistan. And now here we are. So it's insane.

[A]

All of this is about the supply side here. In terms of the employment picture. I mean, that's not getting better and I don't see. So Colin, is this really gonna happen or not? I don't know that, but I can tell you that the job market is certainly not indic of a recovery in this way. And if you look at our industry, the sectors that have been hit hardest, it tend to also kind of fuel the outdoor spending and visits. Like you talk about the federal workforce, you talk about the sciences. Right. You talk about education. You know, these are a lot of people that enjoy outdoor sports and outdoor activities and do things and with kind of jobs disappearing in that way, I don't know how that can positively impact us.

[B]

And let's not forget we're in the middle of a government shutdown. So that. That's right, that's kind of forgot. It's been what, three weeks or whatever, two weeks for kind of like, oh, yeah, that's still happening.

[A]

Can we move on? Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

All right, let, yeah, let's definitely. Let's move on, Dave. So last week we talked here on the podcast about hard times that Lululemon is having. And this week news came out that doesn't paint a rosy picture for brands like Lulu, but does look good for others in the athletic space, per SGB. And according to Piper Sandler's 50th semiannual Taking Stock with teens survey, brands like Lulu and Vans continue to take a dip with younger consumers. But overall, athletic brands continue to do well with teens. Particularly names like Adidas, New Balance on Asics are strong with the youth. Owen, how should a retailer respond to what is working with young people?

[D]

I do think that young people can be a leading indicator of brand heat, but I would also say it has to be taken with a bit of grain of salt because let's face it, young people are not the big driver of the outdoor industry. We, you know, we've talked about that quite a bit on the. On the spot. Right. So, you know, in my past, I would look at this data and mainly more to see if there were emerging brands that we should try to, you know, to get into that weren't on our radar. But it's not like I would look at this and go, oh, you know, on has moved down one spot so we're going to cut our buy for next year. It didn't really work like that.

[A]

I actually owe an on moved up one spot to pass Hoka for the first time.

[D]

There you go.

[A]

Right. They moved to number four. So.

[B]

Well, that's. So Dave, that's a good point. On the brand side, what should they learn from this data? Like, if they're hanging their hat on the one spot bump, probably not really a good idea.

[A]

Yeah. From our perspective, like from an industry kind of like Owen said, there's not much. I mean, the teen market specifically, while it shows a mainstream brand heat, it really isn't even a trend indicator. Right. It's a secondary or, or tertiary influence by trends. Trends tend to come from smaller niche subcultures, probably driven by 20, 30 somethings. And then by the time they get to teens, they've already Kind of filtered up and sometimes are even on their way down. Right. But from a brand. The thing I took from this is Dr. Pepper is the number one soft drink. So let's be clear.

[B]

I can confirm by the constituency in.

[A]

My household, goldfish are one of the top snacks.

[B]

Well, co sign that as well.

[A]

Right. Interesting. And that Adam Sandler was considered the top celebrity.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Which is just what.

[B]

That's just sad for celebrities. Not that I don't love Adam sandler, but it's 2025. I love Adam Sandler in the 90s.

[A]

Influencers this and an artist that. But it's Sandler. So good for him that Taylor Swift really ahead of Taylor Swift.

[B]

There is goodness in the world, boys and girls.

[D]

These teens, they know a thing or two.

[A]

Right. But for. For us, I think the things that again, the shots, you know, kind of the warning signs. Both Stanley and Crocs were on a decline list.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Everything's coming up. Colin. Did I. Did they say anything negative about Puffin Drinkware? Because that's the only thing left on my bingo card.

[D]

What is your thing with Puff and drinkware?

[B]

I hate puff and drinkware. Have I ever told you? My, my, my Puff and Drinkware. But my beef. Why I don't like it?

[D]

No, I want to know because I actually know the folks over there at Puff and Drink where good people, they're just trying to sell a nice novelty product. But you've got it. You've got a shit all over them. So come on, Colin, why. Why are you pissed off?

[B]

Because it's. It's making stuff for the sake of making stuff. It's not saying we're going to make a better Koozie. We're going to make one that actually keeps your drink cold. It's going to say we're going to make your drink look cute. It is an environmental disaster. Packaged and hang on a rack in a retail shop. There's no function to that. If they only sold it to like Target or big box retail, I would have. No, but don't tell me you're an outdoor brand. You're not an outdoor brand. You're not doing anything. You're just making a bunch of crap that doesn't matter.

[D]

I don't think that they consider themselves an outdoor brand. They would be. They would love to be in Target.

[B]

I saw them at my Clyde Jones.

[A]

Drinking a puffy jacket.

[D]

How cute is that?

[B]

It's not cute. It's terrible.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

All right. We will agree to disagree.

[A]

No puffins were harmed in the Making of this conversation.

[B]

Anyway, back to the point that Crocs is on the decline. Can we talk more about that for a second, Dave? That's just music to my ears.

[A]

Well, you know, again, these, like I said, teens aren't the beginning of trends. They're the kind of middle to end of trends. And so they've been around a long time. I don't think they're going anywhere necessarily. I mean, that's a big mountain to fall from and being a comfort item, you know what I mean? It's just, it's going to be in there, but it's just, it's interesting that you see it kind of wanting a little bit the whole.

[B]

Because I was thinking about this as we're prepping my buys and sells later. It's like, even if I'm selling something that's not like saying, hey, this isn't going to be around anymore, right? It's like, it's the same thing with like, this is the whole trend game. And it is kind of. It does make you wonder though that there was times when like, think about like when we grew up, there were brands like Ruse and McGregor and LA gear and these things that would like be scorching hot for like one to eight seasons or whatever and then just disappear.

[A]

Well, to that, to that point look. So if you have a generations that were raised on Crocs, it's got a certain look to it that, that becomes out of style. So they don't want that look. But they've also been raised on, let's say a comfort driven kind of experience. So maybe that doesn't go away. Maybe you see barefoot or minimalist shoes take over in a, in a way to this demographic who still want things that are comfortable but has a, a different styling, you know, to that, I mean it could be brown leather shoes start to make a comeback just in that wider toe box and comfortable. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see where that goes.

[B]

But how much room do you think there is at the top, guys? Right, because that's like, you know. Yes, I think there's niche audiences. Like barefoot is a good one to mention or whatever. But like Crocs is huge, right? I mean it's just like is there.

[A]

Room for rounding error compared to Nike? Colin?

[B]

Well, good point though, right?

[A]

What is huge? What is huge?

[D]

I mean Crocs is, is well into the 5 billion range, if I had to guess. I mean it's up there.

[A]

I mean it, it's. Yeah. And Birkenstock is coming in and yeah, similar. Similar kind of product offering in that. Right. And they get comfort. Fugly that fugly comfort. So it would just make sense that. That, you know, one goes up, the other comes down, you know?

[B]

But is it. Is it from now on just going to be an exchange of those percentage points among the brands that are already there, or is there room for a new brand to sort of break into that space?

[A]

Sure. And there's also room for just a massive, utter collapse. Let's like, for that calamity. I mean, come on.

[B]

Yeah. Puff and drinkware.

[A]

I don't know, dude. You might wake up one day and the world has gone puffing.

[B]

It happened with Crocs, right?

[A]

It could be. It could be.

[B]

All right, guys, time for the lightning round. First up in the lightning round, after an outpouring of support and requests following the announcement that they would be closing, Darren Bush posted on social media that he and his wife would instead be pursuing a sale of Rutabaga paddle sports. Oh, and in an otherwise depressing year, it seems that brick and mortar outdoor retail is getting the rare win.

[D]

This is great news, but I'm reading between the lines here. If I had to guess, what happened was there were some super fans of the store who also happened to have relatively deep pockets, and they came to Darren and said, don't close. You know, we'll come together. You know, we'll pool some resources and we'll make this thing happen. And so they're sort of saving the store, which I think is amazing. And it's a testament to Rutabaga and the community that it's created. Right. That wants to save the store. But it also doesn't surprise me that that just came out now because these are untraditional buyers. Right. These are people who are probably in different industries, you know, don't own retail stores, maybe aren't even in the outdoor industry at all. They just want to save this store. So I think it's great. It could, in fact, be a little bit of the model that helps other outdoor stores, you know, where this, like, hey, listen, guys, we're going to. We're looking at probably closing here, but if somebod really wants to keep this thing alive, then, you know, come, come see me kind of thing.

[B]

Well, congrats to Darren. However it shakes out, we're rooting for them for Rutabaga to stick around, of course. Next up. According to the inertia, the current government shutdown has led to a rash of activities at Yosemite national park that would otherwise be Ill advised. Or even illegal with people entering the park for base jumping, squatting at campsites and climbing Half Dome without a permit. Dave, I was wondering what opportunities exist for outdoor brands to capitalize on the law lawlessness of this moment.

[A]

Oh, just the sheer lawlessness of it, Colin. While I. While I do not endorse any illegal activities in national parks or any other parks for that matter, I have to say it does give me the thought of what can you do if they're closed, but no one's enforcing rules. Run and gun, baby. Run and gun. I mean running gun. What a. Unpermitted photo shoots are gonna go off the chart. I'm talking about where you, a small team in a fast car, move from point to point. Not that I know anything about this.

[D]

No, you've never done it.

[A]

I've heard that you could do this, but that just seems to me if like there's some, you know, kind of epic places you've been looking to do but just can't kind of put the full shoot together, now's the time.

[B]

Fast forward a year here in the rock fight. We're like, guys, if you're notice, every catalog for every outdoor brand has a picture of El Cap in it.

[A]

That's right, that's right. And a lot of letters from the government once they figure out what's going on and get their together.

[B]

All right, last lightning round story per SGB on footwear was sued this week by multiple plaintiffs who are alleging that ons shoes make a quote, noisy and embarrassing squeak. Oh, and if this happened. Oh, and if this happened back in your moose jaw days, would you send all the shoes back, lean into it, promote the squeak like it was a built in feature. Maybe position them towards, you know, the huge birthday party clown shoe market.

[D]

Well, Colin, I mean, you know, back in, if this was the back in the moose today's there, we would have had some squeaktastic emails coming at us. It would have been amazing. Actually, I think what we would have done is try to record multiple squeaks with hopefully different tones and then create like a squeak symphony. Like you know, you know something like where it's just we're squeaking across the floor.

[B]

I think it's a get your freak on and get your squeak on.

[D]

Exactly right. It would have been amazing.

[B]

Dave, what would you do if you were at on, would you be like leaning into it?

[A]

Oh yeah, you got to lean into it or what? This is just covering up some kind of dead mouse. Armageddon, right? We're going to find that there's, you know, rodents in the warehouse, and they found their way into the shoes, and it's just a real tragedy.

[B]

All right, this one is for all the gear makers out there. The biggest barrier for killer new products is sourcing the right fabrics. Working with mills is a pain, and too often you get stuck with.

[A]

I'm sorry, you just said the biggest barrier to is all. And I'm like, no, Colin, it's money.

[B]

Yeah, well.

[A]

That'S not the biggest error. That's the biggest barrier.

[B]

The second biggest barrier for killer new products is sourcing the right fabrics. Working with mills is a pain, and too often you get stuck with whatever sort of fits. Well, what if we told you there was a partner who works with you to design, source and curate fabrics that enhance your product line? And that partner is Ripstop by the Roll. Rip. Ripstop by the Roll is your one stop shop for the perfect fabric solution to your next hit piece of gear. These guys handle the headaches and will work with you to develop or find the right solution. From yarn to finished fabric to fit your design. They have the application experts and production partners to make your job easy. And I doubt any of their fabrics.

[D]

Squeak unless you want it to. Yes, you can have.

[A]

Unless that's part of the brief. Colin, let's not cut that off. Like, I think there's something.

[B]

There is on a rip stop by the world customer. Should we investigate this?

[A]

Interesting. Maybe they're trying to attract raptors and birds of prey. Like, that's pretty cool.

[B]

From cottage companies on garage grown gear to eight figure brands at rei. They've been around. They know what they're doing. Ripstop by the Roll simply wants you to help build the best products. If you're looking to source globally. Done. Want to find something domestically? They got you. Are you ready to learn more? Head to ripstopbytherolle.com to connect today. Winter's unpredictable, guys. Mild one week, it's freezing the next. I mean, I grew up back in the mid Atlantic. Every inch of snow was exciting until it melted into a soupy mess. And then to make things worse, it would refreeze on the driveway, making walking across it impossible. It's just going to be Owen's daily life here in about six weeks.

[D]

It's beautiful right now in Michigan. I'll tell you.

[B]

No snow yet.

[D]

Yet.

[B]

Yet.

[D]

You people over there in the west because you think that Michigan is this like snowy mess? No, I mean, we get some snow, but it's, it's, it's, it's cloudy and dull.

[A]

But I hate to tell you, Owen, it's worse than that. We don't think of it at all.

[B]

Oh, Don Draper, Michigan.

[D]

Okay. Okay, Mr. Portland. Jesus.

[A]

Look, I can't go. You know, when you. When you're on the west coast and you think about the east coast, like Colorado, it's just. It's hard. Anything past that is just.

[B]

Dave, you are on one today. I told you no edibles before the podcast.

[A]

No, it's not just edamame.

[D]

That's right.

[B]

Well, if. Whether you're in Michigan or Portland, going outside can become its own adventure. And that includes choosing what to wear. And that's why people have trusted Fjallraven jackets for more than 50 years. Born and tested in Sweden, they're made to handle everything from everyday cold to true arctic extremes. The philosophy? Simple Build outerwear that performs, protects, and lasts. From the Kev Gore Tex jacket to the expedition pack down hoodie, you'll find something that suits the winter conditions you know are on the way for your neck of the woods, no matter where you are. And retailers, if you want to see the best winter jackets you should be carrying in your shop, schedule an appointment with Fjall Raven at Goa Connect in Kansas City. And this November, the rest of you, check out fjallraven.com. all right, guys, adventure is calling. Hey, are. Are you ready to answer? Are you ready to answer?

[D]

Or is it going to say spam. Com?

[B]

No spam. No spam. Because coming early in November, LEMS is dropping a bold new lineup of minimalist boots and trail shoes. Built to go wherever the season takes you. Meet your new trail companions, the Trail Thrasher and the Trailblazer Mid. Engineered with tough, full rubber outsoles for serious grip and designed with urban edge, they're made to move seamlessly from rugged backcountry trucks to the city streets. These are just two of the many styles hitting the LEM's lineup soon. Just the latest additions to the lineup of the best fitting shoes you've ever worn. Also, retailers, be sure to see Lem's when they exhibit at goa's Discovery Marketplace at the Connect show in Kansas City this November. And we'll be there, too. Okay, guys, let's play outdoor industry buy or sell. So I've asked each of my co hosts to bring several outdoor industry brands, products, trends, entities, whatever, that if they could either buy or sell stock in these things, they would. All right, let's kick this. Should I go first or does somebody.

[A]

Else want to go first?

[D]

Our fearless Leader. Let's go.

[B]

My first buy. I'm buying V.F. oh, yep.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

You did. You did see the result of the, you know, f Marry kill that we.

[A]

Just did and the teen survey, but.

[D]

No, no, please, Colin, go ahead. Yes.

[B]

Well, I look. You buy low, right?

[D]

Oh, no, that's a great. That is Right.

[B]

So industry insiders may want to kill the tnf, but, you know, they are. TNF is about the steadiest Eddie the industry has. Additionally, I think we know vans is going to come back. Some people are starting to speculate it might be sooner, maybe it's a little later. It's going to come back at some point. Timberland is going to come back. They have already.

[D]

It's already coming back, actually.

[B]

Yeah, there you go. On the path. Ultra, we know, is just straight killing it right now. They're doing great. Smartwool's a nice mainstay and they've also shed a bunch of pain points for them. VF has with supreme and Dickies. I think when we're hopefully back to the beginning of the pod of some of the things that we discussed in terms of like the economy and what's happening out there, hopefully there's a day when we're saying, hey, we're back, baby. And I think if we're saying that, that means that VF will probably be saying the same thing. So VF is my first buy. What do you think that make the case?

[D]

That's a smart one. And certainly in a buy low, sell high type of mindset. Totally see it.

[B]

All right, Owen, what do you got?

[D]

All right, so I am buying Columbia. I know. Maybe not that crazy of an idea.

[B]

But way to put your neck out there, Cometford.

[D]

Well, come on. It's one of the few brands that really got the memo that the same old boring, tired tropes of outdoor marketing are just. It's just not going to cut it in the current world. Right. And what I like is some people would complain that Colombia isn't like a quote unquote, core brand. Right. In fact, for a lot of years at Moose Jaw, it was a question as to whether we would ever carry Colombia. Because it was like, it wasn't core, it wasn't cool enough for Moose Jaw. Right. But that actually, I think frees them up to not worry about offending the core so they can do stuff like their latest campaign. Right. And then when you combine that with the fact that they have a more affordable price point than the rest of the industry, zero debt, so they can lean in to Stuff that works. I really think they are one of the brands that is best positioned to take advantage of this new wave of more casual, younger outdoor consumers.

[B]

Yeah, I think the mountain hardware, they deserve a lot of credit for letting hardware do what hardware is doing. I know we've probably talked about this exact thing in the show before, but the thing I always say about arc' Teryx is how they not big, big fireworks displays in the Himalayan notwithstanding, how they've sort of removed themselves from the discourse of the outdoor industry. Colombia kind of has to, like we go to the Patagonian north faces like these folks, we talk with them a lot. Columbia just, it doesn't get a mention usually except recently when we talked to their new brand campaign. And I think like they're just, everybody says they're sitting on a war chest of cash, you know, that they could do. Maybe they don't do anything with it, but I mean they have, they have options at a time when everybody else is kind of scrambling to like plan for the next six to 12 months. Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's a, it's a good, it's a good call there. Dave, what do you think? Columbia?

[A]

No, I like that. I also like their portfolio of brands. Like, like you said, they've allowed north or Mountain Hardware to kind of find itself again. I, I think that that could also happen with Prana and Sorrel. They just have the equity to do it, you know, for sure. So. Yeah, I agree with that.

[D]

I think that's solid to me. Now the big question is can they take the sort of the edginess, the coolness of that latest campaign and can they actually translate that into the physical world, both in terms of retail, but actually then in. And if they can do that, I think they really, really could have something.

[B]

Dave, what's your first buy?

[A]

My first buy is trail running. Colin. I'm buying trail running.

[B]

I'm buying trail running.

[A]

I'm buying trail running.

[B]

Make it for sell. Make the case for buying.

[D]

It's a buy, sell off. Let's go.

[A]

I'm buying trail running. Well, okay, interesting. So that's going to be your sell, huh? I do not see this as a NASCAR hellscape that, you know, I don't think it's going to be the next mainstream sport. I'm not worried about, you know, kind of this kind of being selling out piece, but it really is right now the driver of innovative brands. It's always going to be an innovative kind of product category. By nature. Running is always going to have that piece. So that's there, but also just from a new brand introduction and the way they're selling their products, the way they're building communities around their products. I mean, there's, there can't be that many subcultures within trail running to support all of these niche brands that are coming out. But I think that's what's interesting about them is. And so these community, how can they broaden? I think that chunky, durable, cushiony, stable characteristics are going to just continue to be popular in footwear and those kind of embody that category. So I just, I think it. So it's never going to be a, you know, we're not going to see, you know, you know, mainstream trail running events on television or anything competing with college football. I just think its influence will gain more and more as we see from a fashion perspective, from a kind of a brand building perspective, things like that.

[B]

Okay, so I don't disagree with anything you said. At the same time, some of that is why I'm selling on trail running.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[D]

All right.

[B]

Number one, if you're buying low, you're selling high. And right now the trail running is about as high as I think it could probably possibly get. It is the category du jour.

[A]

It's just started.

[B]

It might be.

[A]

I think it's on its way up.

[B]

The ascent may continue for sure.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But part of my beef with trail running, at least as a trend, I think you're probably right on the product side and the sort of sandbox that people have to try new things for sure. On the brand and product side. But there are definitely loud voices out there that are saying like, oh, trail running, it's like Kickboxing in the 80s Sport of the future.

[A]

Right. Are they loud voices? Are they loud voices or have you just turned your hearing aid up a little?

[B]

It might be. That might just be the circles I drive in. Right. But the, but you know, there's people like all these people should be paid like NFL quarterbacks. I mean, it's just. Here's the thing, here's the thing about trail running that I come back to on this.

[A]

Teachers should be paid like NFL quarterbacks.

[B]

That is 100% true. Let's make that happen, please.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The thing to consider with trail running and a lot of these loud voices around it and the growth of it is that trail running is not a new category. This is a 35 year old category. It's been around since the 1990s. There's been like, not just like people Doing it, like, as a category. So it's having a great moment as a trail enthusiast. I love the attention it's getting. Is it going anywhere? No way. But is it the sport of the future that, like. Are we gonna be talking about trail running? No, we're talking about running for a very long time. And that's gonna. When we get to one of my next buys, you're gonna hear about that. But it's not. I. I'm not buying a lot of the. The hype, the extreme hype around trail running. I think people need to cut. Calm down just a little bit on the trail running front. What do you guys think on trail? Actually, Owen, your turn. You gotta wait.

[D]

Yeah, I'm in the middle here on this. Wow. I do see both sides of it. I would actually lean a little bit more into the buy category. I still think there's room, like, if this is the stock market analogy, there's still more room before the peak here. And yeah, I would continue to lean in. We could get to the point where we're like, there's so many brands that it sort of implodes from its own.

[B]

We're a trail running bubble, people.

[D]

We're in a trail running bubble, potentially.

[A]

You might be.

[D]

I do think that actually there could be some fallout where just too many people get into trail running. But I think the core will still be there. And, you know, it's cool and I think it's a cooler look for the shoe itself and for consumers that want to kind of look cool and have that athletic but outdoorsy look to them. Again, the lifestyle casualness of it all. Trail running shoes give that. That you don't get in regular running and also that you don't get in boots and hiking boots and stuff like that that people are staying away from.

[B]

I think run covers it from the perspective of more of a casual running shoe. It's like, you're still not gonna buy a trail running shoe. I still think it's a pretty niche thing on the trail side of the running category. Yeah, people who are going to look for a cooler brand are going to look more on the more simpler side. But. But, you know, I see what you're.

[D]

Saying, so I disagree because I think the trail running shoe, like, you know, Rihanna wearing Solomon.

[B]

Right.

[D]

I mean, that's true. Talks to the fact that that sort of cooler, luggier, outdoorsy aspect, it gives you that sort of. I love the outdoors piece, but also that I'm athletic and active. I think actually it's a perfect melding of trends and is going to do better than core running, at least in the short to medium term.

[A]

All right, well. Or it's going to influence core running in sense that you're no longer even calling it trail. Those attributes have just kind of bled over into. Into booths.

[B]

Oh, that could happen.

[A]

There could be a whole new thing into. Right, and we've.

[B]

We're not going to call it gravel.

[D]

I can tell you most.

[A]

No, no. Asphalt walkers, but no, I think that's how it. I think that's how it works. It just those. And you've already seen it in, in urban brands or in fashion brands that do footwear they've been lugging up for a while.

[B]

All right, Owen, what's your first sell?

[D]

Okay, well, this might be a little bit controversial, but I'm going to go with Patagonia.

[B]

Everyone just forgot anything I had to say about selling trail running. Okay, focus on Comerford. Here we go.

[D]

Okay, so let me just say this comes from a place of love. I have huge admiration for the brand and what they have meant to the outdoor industry. But gosh, right now, Patagonia, it just feels a little old, a little quiet. It's just, I mean, okay, when we need it the most, where is the brand that had a site takeover with the message the president stole your land? Right. Or that had clothing labels that on the reverse said, vote the assholes out? Okay, I mean, I'm sorry, but a carefully worded op ed in Time magazine is not going to cut it. I mean, first of all, has anybody under 70 read Time magazine in the last two decades? I didn't even know it still existed before I saw the LinkedIn post that announced that this op ed was going out. I mean, come on, we need loud voices. And the loudest voice should be the brand that supposedly is owned by the earth. I mean, if the earth were speaking right now, it would be crying, it would be shouting, it would be screaming, but none of that.

[A]

As the sole shareholder, it's buying up.

[D]

Your sell position maybe, but I don't know. And then the product, though, is in a similar spot. I mean, where's the excitement? Where is the leadership in terms. I mean, to me, Patagonia really was outdoor style for a lot of years. I don't feel that anymore. It's just, just. It's just. It's the same stuff that it's been for decades. Right? And where's the. Where's the crazy new sustainable material technologies coming out? I don't see that. I mean, they were one of the you know, the last group to. To get on the get rid of PFAS train. Right? We talked about that on this pod. So where is that? Where is the newness? Where's the excitement? Where is the. The don't buy this jacket? Where is that brand?

[A]

It's at the Target Woolrich collaboration. I'm pretty sure.

[D]

I hope not.

[A]

Buffalo Check, baby.

[B]

I can't disagree with anything you're saying. I think you're spot on. I mean, it's like I still. I'm not saying I'm not calling them irrelevant or anything like that, but it feels like a shift has occurred into a different direction, a safer direction. I understand that now there's safe. Is you got to protect yourselves right now. Especially when you have somebody in the White House who is looking to come at you. But like, to your point, like, this is, you've been the loudest for 50 years. Like, why. Why are we. Why are we backing off now?

[D]

Right. And do you really think that. That if you sort of alienated the deepest of the Deep Maga folks that that would really hurt your sales? No, it would. It would draw you to. It would draw people to you. Right? The people that. That have been behind everything you've been saying about the environment for years. Right. I mean, we've got people in this administration that, that are wiping the terms climate change from.

[B]

There you go.

[D]

Right. I mean, where's the outrage over that? You know? And so, I mean, Patagonia should be out there and, you know, leaders lead, right? Leaders get out in the front and maybe you take some bullets, but you will be leading to do that. You don't lead from the middle of the crowd, you know, I mean, brands for public lands.

[A]

Great.

[D]

Love it. I think that's a great thing. But if that's your big thing is, you know, safety in numbers scenario. No, that is not a leader.

[B]

Love it, but agree.

[A]

Mic drop.

[B]

Excellent. Well, I mean, I don't know how we followed that one up, but. Dave, what's your first sell?

[A]

How do we. I don't know, Carla. That one is.

[B]

I'm selling them puff and drinkware. Like I'm taking it out of me.

[A]

Okay, well, I don't know how to top that, but I'm selling the tumbler category in its entirety. Oh, I love things. Just all of it. The tumbler is dead. Long live the tumbler. Okay, so look, it's. Stanley has had its time. Hydro flask before it. Yeti is out there. The only question is, who's going to be the new it Will come. But at some point, my. What I carry my liquid in is. I don't know. I just. I feel like we're kind of at this kind of stasis right now where it's not very exciting. The. The big brands have settled at the top. Who's going to come in there? I don't know. Could it be at Walla? I'm a big fan of cork sickle, but they're very, you know, very kind of niche play. But, yeah, I'm just kind of like, man, no, man.

[B]

There was a million. There's a million options now. There was a time when it went from Nalgene to Camelback to Hydrox. What? I'm sure I'm leaving somebody else. Like, where it was like the outdoor industry was driving whatever the bottle trend was. It was coming out of a functional.

[D]

Place, like clean canteen.

[B]

Clean canteen.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

So, yeah. So many.

[B]

And now, like, it's a dime a dozen. You can get an insulated vessel to put your water in at. Just go to 7 11. You could probably buy one. I mean, it's just right. And it's going to look a lot like something else. So. Yeah, I think that's a good one. Good for you. All right, let's each do one more. All right.

[D]

All right.

[A]

I don't have any more, so you're done. Go right ahead.

[B]

You did one of each?

[A]

Yeah, I did.

[B]

All right, I'm going to do. I got my. I got to do one more buy. All right. My second buy is I'm buying rei.

[D]

All right. Wow.

[B]

And same. Right. We buy low, we sell high.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Sorry. But everyone loves to take. Everyone loves to take pot shots at rei, me included. It's very fun. Okay. We all like to do it, but the bottom line is they're not going anywhere. And if they did go anywhere, our industry would have a very real problem.

[D]

Very real.

[B]

So. Right. I'm also not really worried about a return to form because I don't think. I think there's been a ton of revisionist history with REI being a very cool outdoor location, when historically it's always been kind of a C plus outdoor outdoor shop. No matter where you were, they. Their stores have always kind of sucked. I'm not saying that to take another pot shot. I think it's just simply true. That's always been my opinion of REI locations, and I say that emphasizing their importance about why, how they need to stay relevant at an important part of our industry. So I think they're going to be fine. I think they're going to, they're obviously going through it right now like a lot of people, but I'm going to buy them now while they're down. So I'm buying rei.

[A]

That's a solid, solid buy.

[D]

Interesting. Yeah. I think the term that was used in one, one, one magazine article about REI was milquetoast, which I thought was, was, was just chef's kiss. Here's what I would say. I, I do, absolutely. Their core, they, they can't go away otherwise we're all effed. But I would say some of the things that they've been doing, like doing, you know, lease buybacks for their FCs, et cetera, tells me that, you know, the financials are not in great shape, so. And then, you know, closing stores, et cetera. So I think things are, things are tougher, maybe realize I do though feel, I mean, they've got this amazing member base. They are sort of the core. They are the retailer in the industry by a long shot in a lot of places.

[B]

It's the only outdoor retailer you're going to find.

[D]

Right. So, yes, I would agree. I think that they have to survive, quite frankly, and they will.

[B]

All right, you got a second buy, Owen, or are you good?

[D]

I do, actually. And my second buy is Grassroots Connect. Okay. So. All right.

[B]

Gabe and Dana getting some love.

[D]

Yeah. Well, okay, so here's the thing, actually. Last summer was my first connect and I was just like, huh, this is kind of odd because it's all rod and curtain. It's not like a real, real. Well, it is a real trade show. It's not like a regular trade show. Right. So everything sort of happens behind within the booths. And I thought this is really weird, but actually it's really grown on me, this whole concept where it's a great show for the retailer because you get all of these in depth, face to face meetings with your key brand executives. Plus then on the front end, you have the ability to find new interesting brands through the Discovery Marketplace, which itself has expanded recently and is way better than it was before. So I think that there's a lot of good things happening there. I think one of the issues though is that if you're a brand that makes it on the floor, you then can't really grow your retailer base quite so much because it's not very inviting. So actually there are some brands that, that are on the floor and are in Discovery Marketplace because they're there to get other new retailers. So my big idea for the folks at Goa is that happy hour should be the end of the day and all the black curtains get pulled back and we have some drinks on the floor of the show and everyone gets to actually see behind the curtains and see the products and maybe they can actually find new retailers. So there we go.

[B]

Love that. It's a good idea, actually. All right, my last sell is I'm selling on, as in on running. All right, incredible story, right? 2010 brand, only 50 years old already.

[D]

The Squeaks, you're out.

[A]

I had this before.

[B]

The squeaks, they're already 2 billion dollar brand, 15 years old. Right. Are they going anywhere? Doubtful. They're going to be fine. Right. But their midsole technology, regardless of the squeak, is it's meh. It's like, it's like, it's kind of like, yeah, look at our midsole technology. It's like, okay, cool. You put little air pockets in there. I think mostly what they did was they created a really decent looking shoe at a time when running is experience and experiencing incredible growth.

[C]

Growth.

[B]

And that is really go walk through an airport right now. They are the dominant shoe now. They have, they have moved. I feel like in my incredibly scientific research of being in an airport in the last month, they feel like they have shot ahead of HOKA as like.

[D]

The shoe maybe on the west side. I think HOKA still has the Midwest. I do.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Well, you know, a little. Usually a little behind. Right. So I think in the next six months. Yeah, we'll see next summer. We should see where that ends up. And you're traveling for trade shows in June. But I think the future is maybe they become like a cooler version of Skechers, which like Skechers we don't really talk about. But Skechers is an $8 billion company. They're huge. But we just like they're just kind of out there doing their thing. I think that's kind of their trajectory. I think they're going to be less relevant in conversations we have in the outdoor industry, especially to Dave's buy when these trail running brands continue to. Or trail running is a growing category. Running, we know, was ascendant. One of the other buys I had was run specialty. I think it's. They're going to get a little on the outside of the kind of cool kids club in the future. So that's what I'm selling on. On.

[D]

Okay. All right.

[B]

Dave, you disagree?

[A]

Well, look, I can't disagree with the idea of selling high. They're definitely at a high point, right? For sure. Their look though is such a classic Clean, almost preppy. And that never really goes out of style. It comes in and out, but it never goes away. Their pivot from running into court sports, club sports is what I call that. Golf and tennis means they're going to be on television for a while and they're going to see athletes wearing them. So they might even ascend into more of a traditional athletic brand and say me, could they even take the third spot, if you will, of the big.

[B]

Athletes, the Nike Yachty then on potentially.

[A]

Right. Could they be playing into that because of that?

[B]

Yeah. Nike Air. Kind of a dubious technology as well, if we're being honest.

[D]

But what I love about ON is just the visual tech of it all to where people can see an on shoe from halfway across the airport concourse and you know it's on. Right. As opposed to, you know, just another big old, you know, foamy asshole.

[A]

That's the strength and weakness though, in the sense that the weakness is that that look becomes out of trend and therefore I don't want that. To me, it's the multi category presence that's gonna to save them in that. Right. That moving outside of run, which is the kind of the core foundation of athletics, and then moving into those other sports, I think is how you can keep kind of relevance as your, as your. As your visual kind of language comes in and out of trend.

[B]

Apparently you can also hear them coming from the other concourse when they're walking towards you as well.

[A]

Right, right. As the airport runner of choice.

[D]

That's nice there.

[A]

Because they know you're coming.

[B]

They're.

[D]

So sales to the criminal element will. Will be depressed.

[B]

Terrible getaway issue.

[D]

Terrible.

[A]

That's right. Right.

[B]

Time for the party shot brought to you by Garage Grown Gear. Anything to say about Garage Growing Gear? They're great. We love you, Lloyd. All right, keep it up. Garage Growing Gear. Keep doing what you do, dude.

[A]

I think you can put more GS in there.

[B]

Get an extra G. Come on.

[A]

Right, you've got go for. Right.

[B]

Do we know anyone? Gary's Garage. Let's add another G. There's a way to do it.

[A]

We're garish.

[B]

Gary. There you go. All right. Another short parting shot today, guys, but I'll tell the story. And I had to mention it. So this is from the files of. Well, duh. Because this week I saw an outdoor sports wire about a study that was completed in a hospital in Barcelona that concluded that injuries from road cycling are more serious than injuries for mountain biking. So, Dave, Owen, why do you think that might be the case?

[D]

Maybe because there are cars on the road.

[C]

Oh, exactly.

[B]

Because most mountain bikers are simply riding trails. If they fall, they get scratched up, laugh at themselves, and get back on their bikes. According to the survey, 30% of road cyclists accidents involved a motor vehicle.

[A]

I think that's low. I'm surprised, actually.

[B]

Guys, what do you think the percentages of mountain bikers who get hit by a motor vehicle?

[A]

Oh, we should have seen that.

[D]

Well, now I see with these e bikes, though, Colin, these e a motor vehicle. That might be. That might be the problem going.

[B]

Maybe I have to apologize. Maybe we need to take that into consideration. Yeah, but I think the way I was interpreting is that roadies are just out there getting hit by fucking cars. So thank you for the insight, but this feels like a study we could have figured out on our own. And that's my parting shot.

[A]

And the asphalt can be a little bit, you know, unforgiving.

[D]

Rashy.

[B]

Unforgiving. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Rashy.

[D]

Rashy.

[A]

Wow, that's great. That's. I was just reading some research being done.

[B]

Who's publishing this?

[D]

Well, this is news.

[A]

You can tell what government hasn't stopped funding their science. There you go.

[B]

The people who are also suing on for squeaky shoes are also funding the cycling study out of the Barcelona hospital.

[A]

Maybe if they squeaked louder, the cars would hear you coming.

[B]

All right, everyone, that's the show for today. Thanks for listening. We want your email. Send them to myrockfightmail.com the Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight LLC. Today's episode produced by producer Dave, with art direction provided by Sarah Gensert for Owen Comerford. I'm Colin True. Again, thank you for listening and here to take us out is Krista Makes with the rock fight fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.

[C]

Welcome to the rat fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock flight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock flight. Rock flight. Rock fight. Rock flight. Rock flight. Rock flight. Welcome to the rock flight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock flight Fight.