← The Rock Fight: Outdoor Industry & Adventure Sports Commentary
The Rock Fight: Outdoor Industry & Adventure Sports Commentary
Outdoor Industry Trends: Reporting Season & Trade Show Shake-Ups
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A
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B
Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
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A
Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True and joining me today are my fellow founders of the Patagonia Haters Club. It's Owen Comerford and producer Dave.
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C
Oh, come on now. I am a Patagonia lover. I just expect more.
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A
I think we are all Patagonia lovers, but we've gotten some specific feedback that we're gonna get into later this week to address that. Thinks otherwise. Perhaps.
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C
Perhaps.
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A
Notice Dave has not said that he is a Patagonia lover, so maybe he's.
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D
The one that I did not. I said nothing of. I can neither confirm or deny. No, that's crazy talk. Who would say that? What kind of monster are you?
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A
You know who antifa would. That's who would say.
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C
There you go. Yeah, yeah, they're probably in one of those frog costumes too.
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A
Well, we have a lot of outdoor industry news to get to today, including financial headlines, some more trade show news. We are going to respond to the aforementioned listener comment about outdoor's most notable brand. But first, here is what is on tap for the Rock Fight Podcast Network. When this episode airs, we'll all be in Kansas City at Goa Connect. So come back to the Rock Fight on Friday where Owen and I are going break down the things we saw at G OA's Discovery Marketplace.
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C
No. Oh, by the way, if you are at G OA Connect. We have a booth right on the floor right next to the registration area. So swing on by, say hi. Maybe not if we're recording an interview, but maybe wave in that case. But otherwise we'd love to, love to see everybody.
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A
This Thursday you're gonna get an all new episode of Gear Abby with host Shantae Salibert, who you know, Gear Abby. She answers all your Burning outdoor questions. So make sure you subscribe and follow Gear Abby on that podcast feed. As Dave I want to ask if you want to get more how if our listeners want to get more for the Rock Fight, what should they do? But there hasn't been a lot of more lately happening.
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D
No, there hasn't, Colin. I'm very disappointed. Question is, do you want more from the Rock Fight?
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A
Just more for me.
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D
And if you did, I would subscribe to News from the Front, our semi weekly newsletter which you can find over at Rockfight Co and sign up today.
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A
Well, oh, and while people are waiting for the newsletter whenever it may come, if they want to hear from us, maybe tell us how they want the newsletter, what should they do?
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C
Well, they should absolutely email us@myrockfightmail.com we read all of them. Usually Colin is complaining about what comes in and is making fun of what people say mostly, but actually some of it is very thought provoking and we appreciate it. So would definitely love to hear from people. You can also reach out to us on LinkedIn. Just search up Rock Fight or on Instagram where we are Rock Fight code. All one word.
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A
All right, well, I'm not going to complain about the first topic today. We're kicking things off with a bunch of industry financial Updates, starting with VF's up and down.
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D
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start the clock, keep you guys on point here with all these financials. It's really easy to get into this. These rap.
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A
There was a lot, right? A lot of financial.
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D
I know when we start extrapolating out and correlating this, so keep doing the.
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A
Ones we're gonna talk about. I feel like there is a, there is a, a lot that can be extrapolated about the industry. So VF, right. They've had a Q2 up and down Q2 results per SGB. VF was down for Q2 but ahead of its guidance, while for Q3 they were down and below their guidance regarding the results for Q2VF CEO Bracken Darrell, which for my money is still the most, you know, the uncontested best name in the Outdoor industry.
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C
I don't know. Patrick. Patrick. Well, I guess he took over for Patrick O. Winter who was the CEO.
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D
See, that is an amazing run there. I, you know, when you said that Colin, I was like, he either wins the zombie apocalypse like being the last one standing or he's got like, I don't know, a live appearance with Bill Strings or something. You know what I mean? He's going to play the mandolin or just fantastic.
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A
Well, Bracken had this to say. He said in Q2 we made further progress on our turnaround plan. We delivered broad based growth for the North Face and Timberland while continuing to moderate declines in vans. We also announced the pending sale of Dickies for $600 million enhanced our capacity to invest in the portfolio and drive shareholder returns. So Owen, can you read the tea leaves for us here? What are your take on these results for vf?
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C
I guess let's start with the market's reaction which was woof. They were actually, they're down 18% as of recording on Friday since they announced these results. So not great. But really that's more a reflection of the negative guidance for their Q3, which is calendar Q4 because they're saying they're going to be down kind of 1 to 3%. So the analysts didn't love that, as you might expect. And so they kind of got dinged there. From my perspective. I actually thought it was a good result. Again, they're showing that they've got a good foundation. Their return to growth with North Face and Timberland two of their biggest brands. The declines at Vans still double digits, but only minus 11%. But that's versus minus 18, 20, 25% the last number of quarters. So hopefully we're starting to see the bottom there. And I agree that getting Dickies out of helps because Dickies was also bleeding and requiring management attention, et cetera. So now not only is that sort of distraction out of the way, now they've got a portfolio that's much more focused purely on really outdoor, outdoor lifestyle. And they can also have a little bit more liquidity to address things that work. So personally, I'm with you, Colin. I think in our last episode or the episode before where you said you had VF as a buy, I would agree. I think that things are looking up for the corp.
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A
I've got a ton of EF stock. I'm hoarding it, you know, gonna cash out soon. It's coming, I can feel it coming. But yeah, yeah, I guess, I mean VF like we talk about REI is a Trendsetter for the industry and like what we can learn from them as applies to the broader industry. I think vf, for all the names you mentioned and the size and the impact that VF has similar. Right. So what can we glean from this news as it pertains to the broader industry sitting here? October 2025?
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C
I do think that the negative guidance for Q3, it's really a reaction to what we've been saying on this pod, which is things don't look great. And this is, I think, the VF folks being realistic and saying, hey, things don't look great. And it's especially in their home market. Right. In Q2, the Americas were down 1%, whereas EMEA was up 6%. And this just is just another example of one of these large multinational sports outdoor brands that are seeing much, much lower comps in the US Than they are in Europe or Asia. So, I mean, Adidas, Hoka, which you're about to talk about, YETI on Colombia, Lululemon, I mean, the list goes on and on and on and on. Same story. The US Is tough. Rest of the world not so bad. So I ask you, Colin, what do you think? What could be different about the US Market versus the rest of the world?
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A
You're not referring to our leadership, are you?
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C
No, it couldn't be. Couldn't be. No, it couldn't be the tariffs, you.
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A
Know, launching nukes and brokering peace deals. Like, what could be bad about what's going on right now?
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C
Yeah, no, no, that, that clearly can't be it. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm flummoxed. I'm not sure what it could be.
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A
Yeah, yeah. All right, well, so we, we know it's like that's this trend probably not going to change for a while as we're talking about VF though. Hey, Dave, you know, we're still waiting for Vans is back. They're down a little. They're saying, hey, it's moderating. You know, what should vans be doing, though, while they're in this trend? We never really talk about that. We're like, oh, they're down, but they're going to come back. What, what could a brand be do right now sitting in that, in that position while they're waiting for the trend to return? We know it's going to come back at some point.
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D
Oh, yeah, certainly. I think they've already started to see kind of signs of the, of the trend returning. Some of that, like in fall, the 26 kind of fashion Brands Dior and Prada started using kind of like skate silhouettes on, on footwear. So that's just a kind glimpse into maybe where things will go to bring that kind of core vulcanized vans look back. But you know, vans issues are way beyond just the ebb and flow of that look. I mean it's, I think the vulcanized is more like the T shirt or the cap or the denim. Right. It's just, it's a part of the youth culture's closet. Their issues are more about overextension. Right. They just got themselves out market saturation playing way at the low end. They stopped marketing for all intent and purp purpose to kind of the core, kind of the core youth market. So just, that's just kind of getting away from your roots. And so many brands drift, you know, chasing those extension dollars. And I think that's just a classic case of that. So if they get that back together, which I have no doubt they're going to, they're, they're pretty clear and kind of stories I've read about it that they, they understand that those are some of the, the things they need to get back, get their voice back. But if they kind of do that and then you start to see also too these ebbs and flows as big, chunky, comfy goes brings back this thin, flat and uncomfortable which is the, that you'll, they'll be just fine.
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C
Yeah. I think the other thing too is that, you know, they, they brought in Sun Cho as the, the brand president. You know, it's been June of 2000 of 2024. So I mean based upon kind of product development life cycles within our industry, we're only just now starting to see the impact that she is going to have on the brand, which I think is going to be good. I mean, you know, she bring an amazing pedigree. So I think hopefully we'll start to see that really hit in spring.
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A
So next up, also per sgb, HOKA has continued to drive the business for Deckers as new styles have fueled continued growth. But Deckers is now tempering their expectations for what has been the hottest brand in the hottest category. Deckers President and CEO Stefano Karote had this to say, quote, we probably amassed few too many big product launches in the first half of the year and didn't space them out enough. Owen, are we at the beginning of the long anticipated HOKA slowdown? Perhaps maybe that or maybe Decker or is it just sandbagging here?
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C
No, we're there. In fact, it's already here. If you look at it, it's already happened in their core US market. Hoka has actually been flat to down the last two quarters in the US market while international has been ripping 30, 40% up.
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D
Right.
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C
So that's what's really propped up Hoka. So you know, you look at that and you're like, oh shit, it's already here. But part of that I think is market saturation. Obviously here in the US market we see that with some other brands like Lululemon as an example. But part of it is also obviously the tariff, headwinds, et cetera. But yeah, I would say they're a little concerned right now that the golden goose is going to stop laying the eggs.
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A
Well, interesting there to that point. Exactly. The article also cites that HOKA has picked up 2 points of market share in the US on the road running category. Obviously the numbers are showing that it is slowing down, but is that a sign that Hoka has some more room to grow given that they've been largely considered a trail brand for a long time?
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C
I honestly don' because I'm not sure how they define the road running category. If it's truly those road running specific styles that are sold at run specialty. Well, that's actually a shrinking, as we know, that's actually a shrinking segment right now and is a relatively small piece of the pie. Because really what's driving Hoka and really the wider run business is actually the casualization of run and people wearing run type product like Hoka for walking around the place.
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A
Dave, I think historically this is where when brands have a rocket chip of a product or just the brand in general and they reach this point where they start to see some slowdowns. This is when they start to look at adjacent categories and doing other things. Now a lot of people may not realize that Hoka does make apparel. I think they've smartly kept the line mostly to basics. If you look at it, it's very basic running, tops, bottoms, but not a huge range. Do you think that might be the next opportunity for the brand? I mean, in five years will they be up there with the other big athletic brands or do you think it'll be more of an Under Armour situation and they should probably just say a little bit more focused on running shoes?
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D
Well, look, I think it's an inevitable growth of evolution. That's just, that's gonna happen. So just taking that, it's not like they haven't played around it. I think they're smart to stay in the basics. You know, I think the product's a good reflection of their design ethos, which seems to be kind of comfort and color palette. It frankly, that's just kind of what they're bringing to it. And it to me feels like the footwear and like an extension, you know, they do some kind of, let's call it technical or in, you know, technical crossing, like you know, using Tencell blends, recycled contents that kind of marry some of the shoe discussions. But to really play in the, you know, the performance piece of that, that's always going to be top of the pyramid. And so it's never going to really bring the financial results. It's going to be if they decide to get more serious about that side of their business, which, you know, obviously they're going to stay in the footwear. That said, I do know a couple years ago they were engaging some of those, some of the design development boutique firms that are in our industry that do a lot of the design innovation for apparel and for footwear brands. And they were playing in real kind of an R and D kind of sampling, small batch samples that I got to see. These weren't for public consumption, but they were really cool, right? You know, shapes and lines and the silhouettes and, and you know, but like, like every brand that size, it seems that they didn't take those to market but then just put out some more antique olive or violet bloom colored leisure wear. But so they're capable of it and I know they're thinking about it, so it'd be interesting to see where they go.
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A
All right, last bit of results oriented news that came out on Friday also. And per sgb, big week for SGB here on the record.
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C
Well, SGB basically is our source of all these. I mean, hey Ralph, we could have picked 15 other, you know, places that.
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A
Just crushing it out there with the news. And this one came in as like we were preparing this episode. So this, this is around Newell's outdoor and rec segment which includes brands like Marmot and Coleman, which posted lower than expected losses and predicted a return to profitability in 2026. While Phoenix, owner of brands like Royal Robinson Fjallraven, full disclosure, both of whom sponsor the Rock flight, but I just had to mention it, but posted their first positive quarter since 2023. So Owen, is this actually just a sign of things to come?
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C
No, actually, I would say so. First of all, it is great news to see that Newell's outdoor segment that the losses and the growth or the drops in revenue have really leveled off, especially at Coleman because the overall Comp there was basically minus 1% versus minus 11% in Q2. So we're flattening out. I thought the really interesting piece here, though, was that the CEO talked about the reason why things have turned around there. It's not because of some glitzy marketing campaign. It's not because of yet another round of cost cutting. It's because of new product introductions and innovation. And he specifically actually talked about the Coleman Pro coolers. And so the Coleman Pro coolers are basically their YETI competitor. So if you think of like, the vast majority of Coleman's coolers, right, they're like 30, 40 bucks, right? That's kind of what you do for. These are $200 coolers. Okay? So much, much more expensive than the core, but much less expensive than the comparable YETI product. And so that's been a runaway hit for them. And so really, the aha moment for them is it's not about inexpensive, it's about a good value. And they are embracing that as a company. And so they're bullish for 26. Not because of necessarily reading the tea leaves with the industry or this or that, because they are really excited about their product innovation pipeline, and they really think that they can double down with this kind of product, which I think is great.
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A
What about Phoenix? What's going on over there?
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C
Phoenix, it's really muddled, quite frankly, because there's acquisitions involved, there's movement of deliveries for wholesale orders between quarters. So it's not as clean to say, oh, everything is amazing. I thought the really interesting piece of that release was more around how Martin Norden, who is the CEO of the Phoenix Group, has been one of the people who's been more out front in talking about the fact that retailers are cutting back their preseason orders and pushing more of that risk onto the brands. And so what he was saying here, which is interesting, is they're actually embracing that. They're going to say, okay, we get it. We understand that if we're going to need to grow, we're going to have to take on more risk now as a brand. But to be able to do that, we're going to actually address our supply chain and get to a much more agile supply chain to mitigate that risk for us. That is, so we can bring stuff in more on an as needed basis versus committing to everything 6 to 12 months in advance.
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A
Gee, wasn't there someone on this podcast who talked about having a more agile supply chain and how it could benefit everyone? And then, by the way, which was Owen just Credit where credit is due. Also, I think we've mentioned before in talking with a lot of reps and folks out there who are responding more to brands who have a more robust ATS opportunity, just preseason are great and if there's products that really require it in terms of, of pre booking and all that kind of stuff with new products, but brands that seem to have a lot of flexibility in that front, retailers are appreciating that, I guess is the. So what here.
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C
Exactly. That's what you're going to see because realistically an extra 2% discount on a preseason isn't worth the risk in the current environment to most retailers. They would much rather be able to chase. Brands are just going to have to be able to handle that with their supply chain and be much more agile about, you know, obviously they need to know what they're going to bring at the beginning of the season, but be really agile about what they're going to bring in maybe at the middle of the season.
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A
Dave Speaking of Newell, we got to mention that we just hit the one year anniversary where we use Marmot as the perfect example of a zombie brand, you know, and so if things keep going in a good direction there and it sounds like there's some positivity on that front, when are we obligated to lift that moniker? I mean, how many consecutive positive quarters do they need to post before we say, okay, you're not a zombie brand anymore?
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D
You know, we might already be there at some point. Colin, you know, like, like, like a typical zombie, you know, is a mindless reanimated corpse, you know, and just kind of ambling around. But I think that what the term now is, I think Marmot has moved into what's called a revenant. Okay. Revenant is a, they have some semblance of their former self. They're not completely divorced of that. They have their former identity, but they're driven by a specific purpose, oftentimes seeking revenge for wrongs done to them in life. So, so I think that they still decayed, but they are more self aware and directed than the standard zombie. So I think we've seen some real movement.
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C
So basically, watch out other outdoor brands. The revenant is coming for you.
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D
The revenant is coming for you. That's right.
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C
That's right.
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A
All right, let's take a break and hear from some of our sponsors. When we come back, we're going to hit up a few more headlines, get into the lightning round and then wrap up with our parting shot. This One is for all the gear makers out there. The biggest barrier for killer new products is sourcing the right fabrics. Working with mills is a pain and too often you get stuck with whatever sort of fits. What if we told you there's a partner who works with you to design, source and curate fabrics and enhance your product line? Dave, what if I told you that I would?
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D
I'd be waiting with bated breath.
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A
Wait.
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D
No.
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A
Wait. No more. Because that partner is Rip Stop by the Roll. Rip Stop by the Roll is your one stop shop for the perfect fabric solution to your next hit piece of gear. These guys handle the headaches and will work with you to develop or find the right solution. From yarn to finished fabric, and it will fit your design. They have the application experts and production partners that make your job easy. From cottage companies at garage growing gear to eight figure brands at rei. They've been around and they know what they're doing. Ripstop by the Roll simply wants to help you build the best products. Are you looking to source globally? They can do that. Want to find something domestically? They got you there. Are you ready to learn more? Head to ripstopbytherolle.com to connect today. Hey guys. Winter is unpredictable, right? It's mild one week, it's freezing the next. Like I grew up in the mid Atlantic and every inch of snow was exciting until it melted into a soupy mess. And then make things worse, it would refreeze on the driveway, making it impossible to walk across. Going outside, even in those cases became its own adventure. And that includes choosing what to wear. That's why people have trusted Fjallraven jackets for more than 50 years, which is also the equivalent of one Co Holland, by the way. 50 years. Born and tested in Sweden, they're made to handle everything from everyday cold to true arctic extremes. The philosophy? Simple build outerwear that performs, protects and lasts. I mean, Owen, you're coming up on Fjallraven season in Michigan, right? We're in November.
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C
I'm wearing Fjallraven right now. I've got a buffalo plaid wool shirt as part of my Halloween classic old fart outdoorsy guy costume og outdoor guy. There we go. There we go.
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A
Well, if you want to add to that, you got the keb GTX jacket to the expedition pack down hoodie. Oh, and you'll definitely find something to suit. Winter conditions, you know, are on the way for your neck of the woods and go with that shirt. Want to see for yourself? Check out fjallraven.com hey, Dave, do you know that as the air cools and the trail beckons, Lemz is ready to move with you?
- [23:01]
D
I do know that, Colin.
- [23:02]
A
Yeah. Anytime you want to move, you want to pack up a house, you want to, you know, pack your car and go somewhere, they're going to move with you. So, dropping in early November, Lemz's fall lineup expands with the Trail Thrasher and Trailblazer Mid. Designed to grip the earth beneath your feet and carry you confidently through changing terrain. Pair that with a classic Boulder boot and Navy stout. That's a color, guys. Navy stout.
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C
I like that.
- [23:26]
A
They have bold Chelsea boot, tough colorways, and a new insulated breck boot made for snowy escapes. Man, you got everything you need for them for the season ahead. So head to lemshoes.com where you can see everything that Lem's has to offer. Because Lem's, it's where less equals more. Guys, we all know that the Rock fight is the voice of the outdoor industry. And as such, I'd like to introduce a new brand just hitting the outdoor scene. Everyone, hey, everyone, please meet Trovoca. Trovoca empowers outdoor enthusiasts and adventurers with elegantly rugged products that enhance every journey from the backcountry to the backyard. With a lineup of gorgeously designed E coolers, power stations, and camp kitchen products, Travoca crafts premium outdoor gear that empowers you to bring the amenities of home without compromising on style or performance. We got to, we got to see the Trivoka stuff at the outdoor market.
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C
Lovely stuff. I mean, this is, you know, a lot of like wood accents or aluminum pieces, you know, not your kind of industrial, ugly black box or, you know, whatever. These things are nice. You will add some, some really high end industrial design slash Swedish something or other to the, you know, to your campsite with this stuff.
- [24:37]
D
Yeah, I studied under a designer in the Swedish whatever movement.
- [24:43]
C
It's the school of Swedish whatever.
- [24:45]
D
That's right. It's a, it's a, it's a wonderful design aesthetic. It's minimalist and gaudy and a little bit of what? Wtf.
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C
It's nice. Exactly. Yeah, right.
- [24:55]
A
But WTF is good because if you walk into a campsite and you saw the Trovoka like, cooler, you'd be like, what the hell is that? That's amazing. Look at that thing.
- [25:01]
C
See, that's cool. It is cool.
- [25:04]
A
Hey, and retailers, you want to get an in person look at the full range of Travoca products like the flagship Rigel DZ E Cooler or Travoca's Vega 1500 portable power station. That's a mouthful. You can see it at the 360 Adventure Collective show in Greenville this November. If you can't wait that long, head to traboca.com to learn more today. All right, guys, it's time for the Lightning round. First up in the Lightning round, last Thursday, Footwear News named Wolverine the 2025 Company of the Year and will be honored as such. They will be honored as such at the Footwear News Achievement Awards in December. Dave, is this the moment Wolverine has been waiting for before finally doing something right with Choco?
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D
Okay, guys, so I've got. Okay, let me. Let me break this down for you. We're gonna have our own little. Our game show here. What company has won the Company of the year award? The most of any companies. And then a follow up. What outdoor company has won the most?
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A
Well, it's gotta be. Nike has won the most.
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D
Nike has won the most. Owen, you have an idea for.
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C
I mean, I would have said Nike too, but I don't know. I'll go.
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D
This is.
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C
Is footwear only, right? Yeah, I will go Adidas just for.
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D
Okay, you guys, those are the two brands that have never won the award, which is fantastic.
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A
That's amazing.
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D
They've never won Company of the Year. The company that has won it the most, which is, I love, is Steve Madden. Because nothing ever went wrong with Steve Madden.
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A
Oh, my God.
- [26:35]
D
Authentic would be second.
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A
Authentic brands would be second.
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D
Second. But here I'll just kind of. But from an outdoor perspective, Deckers actually has won the award three times over the years.
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C
Okay.
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D
And VF has won it twice. Right. So I think they're.
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A
They're playing all of these. Winning before Nike is kind of a croc. It's amazing.
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D
Okay, so then here's the question. They've also noted Brand of the Year as separate from Company of the Year. Okay. So can you name what. What. What of it in the outdoor world? Who has won Brand of the Year?
- [27:15]
C
I'm gonna. I'm gonna go anti Colin and say Crocs. Okay.
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A
That's probably a pretty. That's. I think I would that. Honestly, it would have been my guess. I feel like judging on the other one. Hold on. Outdoor Brand of the Year.
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D
Yeah, outdoor. Outdoor. Just brand of the year. But it happens to be an outdoor. And we talk about them all the time. Time. Or any of these. We talk about a lot. You've got multiple to choose from.
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A
Meryl, of course.
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D
Meryl, of course. Meryl's run it twice. Right. And Hoka has won it twice. And Birkenstock has won it twice. And Vans has won it twice.
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B
Right.
- [27:49]
A
All right, well, there you go, Wolverine. We're happy for you over here, I guess, for this.
- [27:54]
D
And we'll let. We'll leave with the last one.
- [27:56]
A
Oh, you have one more.
- [27:57]
D
I got one more. Shoe of the year. This is always a big one. The shoe of the year. Super style conscious about that. First I one outdoor shoe has ever won this award. And it's all of its time that it's been around. And to be fair, the awards really started as a, you know, lifestyle style. Footwear. You know, back then, the industry was really about kind of flats and heels and dress shoes, and it took a long time for, for outdoor and sneaker brands to start to make headway in this world, but only one, quote unquote, outdoor shoe has ever won shoe of the year.
- [28:34]
A
Jungle mock.
- [28:35]
C
Jungle mock.
- [28:36]
D
It's Crocs, Colin.
- [28:37]
C
It's Crocs.
- [28:38]
A
Well, there you go. I mean, I thought. Yeah, I'm like that.
- [28:42]
D
That's. That's right, that's right.
- [28:44]
C
That's right.
- [28:45]
D
So.
- [28:45]
A
All right, we'll get out of here.
- [28:46]
D
There you go.
- [28:49]
A
Good for you, Wolverine. Next up, last week, Lululemon dropped their new apparel collection featuring all 32 NFL teams that include logo versions of some of their core styles with those NFL logos on them. Oh, and would Lulu have done this if Chip Wilson was in charge?
- [29:05]
C
Oh, no way. No. Just. No.
- [29:10]
D
We.
- [29:10]
C
We were talking about this on our. Our production meeting, and it was. I think it was. It was Stacy, right, with Stacy Client.
- [29:19]
B
Yeah.
- [29:19]
C
With. With our wonderful PR agency that said, is this the Taylor Swift influence? I'm like, oh, you know what? I think you're right. I think that there's. There is some of that here and just sort of the how the NFL has sort of grown beyond its core demographic.
- [29:36]
A
All right, last lightning round story. Last week, bicycle retailer reported that a Washington mountain biker has sued Specialized after a known defective issue with what of their E bikes led to an unplanned acceleration where the bike crashed, leaving them with seven broken ribs. Dave, is this the most egregious case of a piece of outdoor gear trying to kill an outdoor enthusiast? This has to be somehow like, AI related, right?
- [29:58]
D
To me, this is more like one of the most expected cases of a gear. It's almost like, you know, the person trying to pet the bison. Like, really, it's a motor and you're going downhill, things are going to happen. Let me tell you. Yeah. And oh my gosh, that's funny.
- [30:15]
A
It is. It is a known defect of that model. And the poor guy definitely sort of the rear wheel. Rear wheel started accelerating and he wrecked, cracking seven ribs. The guy thought he had internal injuries, but rough times up there for special.
- [30:28]
D
As one who has been attacked by an E bike before. He got off pretty. He got off lightly.
- [30:32]
A
Gotta go analog, guys. Gotta get off the ESAU.
- [30:36]
D
That's right.
- [30:38]
A
All right, 2026 outdoor trade show watch. We're back on that corner. So per press release last week, Outdoor retail announced they have completed the roster for what they're calling their leadership village. Like Sunny Strower and Lindsey Hubley told Owen and I when the news broke about the changes coming to the show or has created an advisory board of sorts called the leadership Village. And the full roster now includes Chris Nance of Codepoxy, Stephen Reginald, founder of Gear Junkie, Tyree Moore, founder of Soul Track Outdoors, Xavier Abdullah of Minneapolis climbing coach Becky Philip Cranig, owner of Bear Cub Outfitters and Chris Goddard, owner of PR firm cgpr. They joined the previously announced Leadership Village who were Sunny Strower, Paul Gagne, Dana Carraway, Peter Sachs and Sasha de Julian. Additionally, o r announced a partnership with founded Outdoors and Lloyd Vogel and Garage grown gear to bring 50 to 100, quote small and medium sized retail ready brands to the show. So Owen, my knee jerk reaction to this press release was coming on the heels of the OIA doubling down with diversified and switchback is that we're sort of getting the kitchen sink from Emerald and or what were your thoughts reading this release piece?
- [31:44]
C
I mean to me the founder doors piece was much more consequential than the, I don't know the village of villagers in that as we talked about or really needs to get brands back to the show. Right. And the OIA was probably the most direct way to get there. Obviously the switchback folks have kind of cut them off at the pass there. So they needed another group. I think that could bring a whole bunch of brands all at once. And the founded Outdoors Garage Growing gear people have that right? I think, I think Fan outdoors has like 200, 300 founders as part, as part of their group. So this makes a ton of sense to me. And we talked about this even last week in terms of the fact that if you can be the place where new brands show up, that that is one of the key differentiators here. So, you know, kudos, kudos to the gang. I think it's great now what does that mean? I don't know. I mean, obviously this gives them access to those brands, but what are they going to do to make it better for those brands? Are they going to have scholarships, you, et cetera, et cetera. But makes perfect sense from where I sit.
- [32:48]
A
And last bit of trade show news is that the classic European outdoor trade show, ISPO, is moving from Munich to Amsterdam in 2026. The show will now be a joint venture between Messi Munchen and Raccoon Media Group. Pearl, per Harold Kirschlager. Hope I didn't mess up your name there, Harold. Harold is ISPO's executive director of global strategy and development. He said, quote, changing the venue, timing and structure sends a clear signal ISPO is evolving. The new strategy embodies that change. I mean, Dave, these moves by any of these shows, be it or ISPO or whoever, I mean, are we just rearranging chairs in the Titanic here?
- [33:22]
D
That's probably a good description. Look, I just, you know. Yes, yes, it's true. But man, moving from Munich to Amsterdam is from over here is inconsequential as that may seem. That's still a big deal. Like, you know, ISPO and Munich have been so connected for so long that that just feels. When outdoor retailer moved from Salt Lake to Denver, back to Salt Lake and back to Denver, like just Minnesota, just like. But yeah, so that, that's just kind of the, the, the kind of symbolism of it, for sure. I mean, Amsterdam is a great place to have a show. Right? For sure. From a, just kind of a centrally located. But yeah, I don't see how it's going to change anything or the fortunes of Espo.
- [34:11]
A
You know, I mean, Owen, you were at Dispo last year. Does this move make you feel like there's any of these issues that you observed will be addressed?
- [34:19]
C
The timing was definitely problematic. I mean, it was basically, it started the Monday after it started on Cyber Monday last year. Right. So just from a retailer perspective, just brutal.
- [34:32]
A
Right.
- [34:33]
C
In terms of being able to carve out time to go. But in my mind, I'm not sure they moved in the right direction. So they moved from early December into early November, chasing the ever popular ordering window. Okay. And I would have moved the other way. I would have moved it to January because moving it to November, I mean, it's definitely not going to bring back the snow brands. That's, you know, they didn't love December, they're going to hate November. And they were the core of the old ISPO winter show, so that's gone. Yes, you have it more into a better, less busy window and into the ordering window. But as we've talked about on this show a lot, I just don't think these large national, international shows are about ordering. They're about coming together, they're about getting together. And it's just so much easier to do that in January than it is in November.
- [35:26]
A
Yeah. And like you mentioned in our outline, Goa's the week before. We know now the running event switchback will be a week or two after. Just from a US brand perspective, that could complicate things as well. If you want to go to ispo, we'll have to see a lot of these moves. Like I said, even back to the OR front and all the shows. Let's try throw things at the wall and see what's going to stick. It's definitely going to be interesting to see what shakes out of where we are with this in the coming years.
- [35:54]
C
It is easier to get to Amsterdam given that. And they are investing some big dollars in retailer scholarships, content, et cetera. So, you know, I'm certainly willing to wait and see and see how it comes out. But yeah, I mean, as with all these trade shows, it's a tough environment right now.
- [36:11]
B
It's time for a party shot.
- [36:15]
A
All right, guys, it's time for the parting shot presented by. Oh, Garage Grown gear. Is that a conflict? We just talked about them in the OR press release.
- [36:22]
C
I don't know.
- [36:22]
A
Do we have a conflict here? Lloyd, you're causing problems.
- [36:25]
C
All right.
- [36:26]
A
Right, okay. So a couple weeks ago, during our Buy Sell episode, we bought and where we bought and sold outdoor industry brands and trends like we would buy stock. Owen sold Patagonia based on what he believes is a severe drop off and what has made the shining example of what an outdoor brand could be and the reasons why they are so often held aloft as the de facto leading brand of the outdoor industry. That has fallen off quite a bit. All right. And after that episode came out, we have received the following listener comment and the comment is titled Patagonia's Biggest Hater, referring to us here at the Rock Fight. The comment is they truly hate on this brand whenever they can. This most recent pod showed that again, trying so hard to be contrarian to the industry's leading brand. They give 100% of their profits. He's talking about Patagonia here, not the Rock Fight. To the outdoors and other enviro social causes. They clearly don't have insider knowledge on Patagonia because they'd be Hyped about the new PAL Slayer kit or upcoming drops. Had to unsubscribe because the hateration was getting old. Now, listen, I'm fine having. I think we should have haters. I'm glad we have haters. So thanks for being a hater. Just generally speaking about the pod. But we wanted to bring this up because, I mean, you know, Owen, I'm curious. You're the one who sold Patagonia. What are your thoughts on this person who obviously doesn't work for Patagonia? Not at all.
- [37:38]
C
They do not work for Patagonia. No. So, first of all, as I said at the time, this comes from a place of love, not from a place of hate. I love Patagonia. I love the brand. I love what has been built and what it stands for. And quite frankly, because of that, I expect more from Patagonia. Right. I'm not calling out North Face for not doing a whole lot right, because that isn't just. That hasn't historically been their shtick. Right. It has been for Patagonia. Patagonia makes a big deal of, you know, we sold ourselves to the earth, et cetera, whatever. That's why I expect them to stand up. And that's why we're not seeing that. We're not seeing at the time when the voices need it most, were not hearing them. And that's my thing. But then for them to turn around and say, oh, they know nothing about what's going on with Patagonia because they're not hyped about the Pow Slayer kit. Are you fucking kidding me? Excuse me? The Pow Slayer kit, for those that don't know, is a $800 Gore Tex Shell and a $650 Bib. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm not excited about that. That is not going to revolutionize the world for anybody. That is not what. True. I mean, is it innovative? It may be. It's using, you know, a new. A new Gore Tex fabric. But come on, guys, you know, if that.
- [38:54]
A
So it'll keep you as dry as the old Gore Tex fabrics, probably, but.
- [38:57]
C
It isn't going to kill the environment, apparently. So, yeah, I just. Guys, come on. We need more true product that's going to reach mass appeal. And also. And by the way, way, me knocking Patagonia in terms of newness and innovation, I'm really reflecting what I'm hearing from retailers. Right? This is not just Owen here in a bubble, you know, not knowing what the hell's going on with Patagonia. This is. This is what, what I'm hearing from retailers that they're not getting enough in terms of new and exciting stuff to sell to their customers. So take, take that.
- [39:33]
A
Not to pump our own tires. Yeah, not to just pump our own tires Here you're talking to three people who are very well informed in this industry, worked in it a long time and talked to a lot of people. So if we're saying it on the show, so we're not just throwing things out there because it's like, hey, here's a good idea. Let's see what happens. You know, there's a lot of consensus behind the scenes on a lot of things that we're saying or at least things that we want to discuss. So it's just another, you know, I agree obviously with Owen on this. I think Patagonia should be speaking up more because they have been the ones who speak up in the past. And it feels very, very quiet coming out of Ventura, California these days.
- [40:06]
D
It's not just Ventura, though. This is a critique of the entire industry itself. They just happen to be typically our standard bearer here.
- [40:15]
A
That's it.
- [40:16]
D
I mean, and we're not the only ones talking about this.
- [40:18]
C
Right?
- [40:19]
A
That is the right way to describe.
- [40:20]
D
This for leadership and nobody stepping up. And it's a tough environment. I mean, look, not faulting any. I get it. Right. And like, other people are also noticing the fact that we do have a lack of corporate resistance to what's going on. And so I don't think it's unique to Patagonia in any way. We, like we said, we just have a different expectation of what they stand for. And I think that Yvonne should have signed his email to us, would have been just a little bit more transparent. But that's okay. I get it. He doesn't have to.
- [40:53]
A
We all know he's right.
- [40:55]
C
If you're a publicly traded company in the current environment, you know, you got to worry about shareholders and stakeholders and this your stock price, I totally get it. That's not the case here. This is a privately held company where supposedly the earth is the shareholder. And the, you know, if the earth is voting, it's going to say, you know, we need to change that. We are under attack right now. So, yeah, that's just, just being an.
- [41:19]
D
Activist investor might be the way to describe that.
- [41:22]
A
I think it proves the point too, though. Like, people are love the brands in the space and people like, no matter what you say, they obviously this person loves what Patagonia stand for and doesn't want us bagging on them. I get that. I think you. I think we're doing the right thing. But I also understand that, like, you know, hey, this brand means a lot to you, so. But, you know, people still need to be held accountable.
- [41:39]
D
And if you dig the pow slayer, more power to you because the name rules.
- [41:43]
A
Hope you got a pro D. Last thing before we sign off. Rip Rod Johnson, owner of Minnesota's Midwest Mountaineering that now closed Midwest Mountaineering, who passed away last week. Just want to send our condolences to Rod's friends and family and thank you for everything you did for the outdoor scene in Minneapolis. All right, that's the show. We want your emails and your comments. Send them to myrockfightmail.com TheRockFights a production of Rock Fight LLC. Today's episode produced by Brack and Dave Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert for Owen Comfort. I'm Colin Drew. Thank you for listening. And like always, he's here to take us out. Krista makes with the rock fight fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
- [42:28]
B
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock. Welcome to the rock bike where we speak our truth. Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight, Rock fight. Welcome to the rock flight, Rock flight. Rock fight. Rock flight. Rock fight, Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight, Rock fight.