Preseason vs ASAP Orders: Who Holds The Risk? Plus: Redefining The Zombie Brand!

Summary

The Rock Fight: "Preseason vs ASAP Orders: Who Holds The Risk? Plus: Redefining The Zombie Brand!"

Podcast: The Rock Fight: Outdoor Industry & Adventure Sports Commentary
Date: August 25, 2025
Hosts: Colin True (A), Owen Comerford (C), Producer Dave (D)
Episode Overview:
This episode dives straight into the messy realities of the outdoor industry, tackling who takes on the most risk—brands or retailers—when it comes to preseason versus ASAP (in-season) orders. The hosts also unravel the implications of discounting on a brand’s long-term survival (“zombie brands”) and riff on the revolving door of trends like gravel running shoes and angler-core, as well as the state and relevance of legacy brands like Vans. Packed with insightful banter, listener mail, and a competitive 90s playlist challenge.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Listener Mailbag: Gear Lore & Brand Names (05:24 – 09:48)

• Nike Lava Dome: The Real OG Low-Top Hiker?
  Listener Todd Frank calls out the hosts for giving credit to Montrail for low-top hikers, sharing his own experience with Nike Lava Domes in 1980/81.
  • Quote:
    “These are, in my opinion, the OG Low top hiker. Not that Nike deserves any recognition, but they do deserve it here.” — Todd Frank [06:03]
• Debate Over The True ‘Firsts’ in Outdoor Footwear
  Hosts discuss other contenders like Oslo and HighTec and the rise of fashion influence in outdoor footwear as early as the 80s.
  • Quote:
    “It does have, like, early Nike running shoe. Very cortezy.” — Colin [07:19]
• Outdoor Brand Names: The Vowel-less Database
  Shoutout to listener Mason Colby and his substack exploring outdoor brand names.
  • Quote:
    “We need Mason to start tracking brand names without vowels and see how many are out there.” — Colin [09:31]

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2. Consumer Sentiment, Tariffs, and the Pulse of Outdoor Retail (11:51 – 17:44)

• The Power (and Limitations) of the University of Michigan Consumer Sentiment Survey
  Owen breaks down why the survey matters and how it’s a reliable predictor for recessions and consumer spending.
  • Quote:
    “[It] really has been shown to be a good predictor of consumer sentiment. And more importantly, consumer spending—which actually drives two thirds of our GDP.” — Owen [12:31]
• Tariffs and Economic Anxiety
  The hosts unpack why consumer sentiment plunged post-tariff announcements, and how inflation and layoffs might be contributing.
  • Quote:
    “It is actually the consumers are going, oh, no, this tariff thing, we're getting it now. It's real.” — Owen [15:06]
• Job Cuts, AI Fears, and an Uncertain Future
  The conversation widens to include tech-driven layoffs and the impact of AI on new graduates’ job prospects.
  • Quote:
    “AI is a huge source of stress for people as to what that’s doing… It is a combination agreed of more than tariffs. It's tariffs, it's the economy, it's unemployment, it's just the overall level of uncertainty.” — Owen [16:29]

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3. Trend Watch: Gravel Running Shoes – Category, Gimmick, or Useful Segmentation? (17:44 – 23:16)

• Are ‘Gravel’ Running Shoes a Distinct Need or Doomed to Fizzle?
  The crew debate if new sub-categories (like gravel) help or just confuse consumers/retailers more.
  • Memorable Moment: Imagining running vests full of interchangeable soles as gravel, trail, and road surfaces change [21:01].
  • Quote:
    “It is silly. I have a gravel shoe, I have a trail shoe, I have a road shoe, I have a day shoe, I have a night shoe...” — Dave [19:46]
• Retailer’s Perspective:
  “If it helps me sell more shoes, I am all over it. Bring it, baby.” — Owen [21:29]
• Brand Stretching and Market Entry:
  Conversation about Salomon using gravel as a way to attract road runners via an accessible middle category.

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4. Vans: A Fashion/Function Case Study (23:16 – 28:36)

• Vans’ Clog & Vulcanized Rubber ‘Comeback’
  Analyzing recent product attempts (like confusing clogs) versus core retros (like the old-school souvenir), with skepticism and some nostalgia.
• Is Vans Relevant for Outdoor Retail?
  Hosts discuss selling Vans at Moosejaw, their snowboarding and BMX forays, and the tension between fashion leadership and staying true to skate culture.
  • Quote:
    “I just don’t know how much they're pushing to it... Like you said, the fashion has gone in the core of the line, which kills me because I would still hope and pray that the core of the line is skateboarding.” — Dave [26:28]
  • Quote:
    “If I live in a town, I have a great skate park... you could justify selling some, you know, decks and some trucks and some vans.” — Colin [28:06]

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5. Lightning Round: Outdoor Fashion & Societal Trends (28:36 – 32:08)

• Angler-Core: The Next Big Aesthetic?
  Hosts see the urban “fishing” look as another branch off lumbersexual and normcore, driven by people wanting to appear connected to the outdoors.
  • Quote:
    “Anytime you’re talking that many pockets in one place, you have got some function going on.” — Dave [29:51]
• Declining Alcohol Consumption: What’s Next for the Trail-to-Bar Cliché?
  Speculating on the rise of ‘temperance’ and what outdoor brands will turn to for lifestyle marketing.
  • Quote:
    “We put the fun in fentanyl. Like, I don’t know…” — Dave [30:58]
• Inactivity on the Rise:
  Unpacking Gallup stats that nearly 23% of Americans were inactive in the first half of 2025, and pointing the finger at tech, doomscrolling, and even AI conversations.
  • Quote:
    “They're either doom scrolling on their phones, they're playing video games, they're binging squid game, or worst of all, having deep and meaningful conversations with ChatGPT.” — Owen [31:52]

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6. Main Event: Preseason vs ASAP Orders—Who Takes the Risk? (33:59 – 43:23)

• Current Environment:
  Retailers are reducing preseason order commitments and shifting inventory risk to brands. There’s a legacy of being “stuck holding the baby” from previous gluts (’22-’23).
• Retailer POV:
  • Todd Frank’s analogy:
    “I reach down and pull a wooden box of risk out of my bag. We spend the next hour pushing it around the table. Us pushing risk at vendors ASAP and them pushing risk at us preseason.” — Todd Frank, via Owen [35:13]
  • Retailers base risk on brand reliability, DTC behavior, and past experience.
• Brand POV:
  • Andrew Gibbs Dabney (Lives in):
    “When pre seasons are reduced with an expectation of similar sales to previous periods, then the brands don’t have clarity to forecast and purchase accurately... Ultimately, retailers reducing pre season ordering in favor of chasing ASAPs will lead to more waste in the system and more discounting down the line.” [36:40]
  • Small brands are especially vulnerable, struggling with cash flow due to late ASAP payments and large upfront deposits.
• Contrarian Brand Take:
  • Caleb Nixon’s perspective from Sea to Summit: Preseasons aren’t always desirable for brands; they can lead to margin erosion and logistical headaches [38:39].
• Zombie Brands and Perpetual Discounting:
  • Hosts argue that brands caught in an endless loop of discounting (especially DTC) to drive revenue are, by definition, “zombie brands.”
  • Quote:
    “If all you’re doing is discounting to stay in business, but you’re never going to break free of that cycle, that's kind of what you've turned into at that point. Because to your point, retailers aren’t going to trust you…” — Colin [42:43]
  • Breaking out requires tough inventory and marketing strategy calls.

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7. Parting Shots & Playlist Showdown (44:03 – 52:14)

• Owen’s 90s Playlist Challenge:
  Owen lays out his superior 90s playlist, kicking off competitive banter about which bands define the decade.
  • Notable tracks: Nine Inch Nails “Head Like a Hole”, Pearl Jam “Black”, Rage Against the Machine “Killing in the Name”, Radiohead “Creep”, STP “Interstate Love Song”, Green Day, Sublime, Fiona Apple, Foo Fighters.
• Quote:
  “No, there was no, the only context was, let's get as many bands on this playlist that Colin and co totally forgot about.” — Owen [44:55]
• Final Jabs:
  Reference to Turtle Fur’s new CEO and an observed trend of legacy brands seeking relevance and new consumers with “louder, prouder” positioning [51:14].

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Notable Quotes

• “It really is attacking the underpinnings of societies and careers... You’ve got new college graduates that are facing probably the worst market for new college graduates in years, some of it because AI is basically taking all of those jobs...” — Owen [16:29]
• “Any walk can be called a hike if you're wearing the right boots.” — Colin [33:02]
• “Discounting undercuts everything. It undercuts your pricing discipline, it undercuts your value in the consumer's eyes. It absolutely undercuts your value from a retailer's perspective.” — Owen [43:23]

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Memorable Moments & Tone

• Banter is lively, irreverent, and unfiltered—“campfire or chairlift” vibes.
• Playful mockery of industry nomenclature and buzzword trends (e.g., gravel running shoes, angler-core).
• Real talk about risk, margin, brand survival—no sugar-coating of industry pain points.
• Community engagement is explicit, with listener emails sparking discussion and influencing topics.
• Fierce but friendly playlist rivalry closes out the show, channeling 90s spirit and spite.

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Useful Timestamps

• Listener Mail & Lava Dome Debate: 05:24 – 09:48
• Consumer Sentiment Deep Dive: 11:51 – 17:44
• Gravel Running Shoe Trend: 17:44 – 23:16
• Vans & The Outdoor Crossover: 23:16 – 28:36
• Lightning Round (Angler-core, Drinking Down, Inactivity): 28:36 – 32:08
• Preseason vs ASAP Orders Main Discussion: 33:59 – 43:23
• Zombie Brands & Discount Dynamics: 42:43 – 43:59
• 90s Playlist Face-Off/Outro: 44:03 – 52:14

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For the Outdoor Retail or Brand Insider:

If you’re wrestling with order planning, evaluating risks in inventory management, or debating the pros and cons of chasing every new subcategory or aesthetic, this episode’s tightrope walk between current trends and hard truths offers plenty to chew on—by design.

For Casual Listeners:

Expect a heady blend of nostalgia, informed snark, and honest answers to questions most industry podcasts dodge. You’ll end up laughing, learning, and, maybe, humming a 90s anthem.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Be a shop floor hero. Endeavor's here to stay. Shop floor hero. Sell through is the way. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock flight. Rock fight. Rock flight. Rock fight.

[A]

Welcome to the Rock fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True and joining me today, they awaken once again from their week long slumber. It's the Monday boys, Owen Comerford and producer Dave. What's up, guys?

[C]

I'm still sleepy. Still sleepy. Wow. How can you still be sleeping? It's hot.

[D]

We have an extreme weather warning out here. It's gonna get like to be 82 degrees or something.

[A]

Extreme weather warnings in the northwest are pretty funny. When I moved there from like Utah where it got actually really hot, and then in Seattle, it's like, hey guys, it's gonna be like, it's gonna be like 82 today. Better, better take it easy out there, you know.

[D]

And then they, they trot out all of the, the air conditioning stats.

[C]

Oh my gosh, it hit like 100 degrees in Portland last year or something.

[D]

Oh, it did? Yeah. Well, it's gotten to 112 in the last few years.

[C]

Yeah, it's gotten whacking. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, those, those Portlandian, they just melt above 90. So it must have just been. They must have just been combusting on the street.

[D]

You know, we've got a lot of trees, a lot of shade. Cold beer. We can do it.

[A]

Well, hold on. We're going to get into the cold beer of it all in a few minutes here. Okay? Maybe not be able to talk about that anymore. All right. But, but, Owen, we have not had a lake check in. It's August 22nd. Are we. Is the water temp? Is it bath water?

[C]

Is it just wonderful? It is beautiful today. I can't believe that I'm stuck inside with you assholes when I could be out on the boat. That's.

[D]

That's very.

[A]

No one says you can't pod from the boat. Let's just put it that, you know.

[C]

Oh, that would, that's. We could do that. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I'm editing out all the windblown noise, you know, from on the.

[C]

Or. Yeah, or some, some asshole goes by on a, on a wakeboard boat and just blasts me with, you know, his awful music choices. Yeah. No.

[A]

All right, some programming reminders for our listeners tomorrow. Doug Schnitzbahn Tuesdays, opens a container like he always does. His guest this week, guys, it's a. It's a special one. Doug is welcoming Rock Fight's own Shantae Salibare to open the container with him. Talk about a whole bunch of outdoorsy stuff, including her upcoming podcast, Gear Abby, which will be debuting next week on Thursday, September 4th. Hopefully by the time you're hearing this, maybe shortly after the trailer will be out. We'll link to that and whenever, wherever you get stuff from Rock Fight so you can follow that show and be ready for gear at. And on Wednesday, you can also hear Shantae here on the Rock Fight when she and I chat about the latest headlines come out of the outdoor adventure community. On this upcoming Friday's episode, Columbia SVP of marketing Matt Sutton is going to join producer Dave and I to talk about Columbia's Engineered for Whatever campaign, answer the question, what was the brief? And then also respond to all the haters that are currently still thriving inside my LinkedIn threads. Dave, with that in mind, you know, how can our listeners get even more from the Rock Fight than what I just described?

[D]

Colin, there's so more news from the front every few days or so or few weeks or whenever, really. Colin kind of decides to throw that out the window, the moving window, I might add.

[A]

It's a newsletter.

[D]

It's a newsletter. It's a newsletter. Right. And the best way to get that is Head to Rockfight Co and sign up. And yeah, it goes directly to your inbox.

[A]

Oh, and how can our listeners reach out to us? Maybe want to comment on Gear Abby or open container or what's going on with our guests coming up. How can they reach out?

[C]

Well, if you want to be part of our listener mailbox segment that's coming up right after this, you can email [e-mail] you can reach us on LinkedIn. Just search up Rock Fight or on Instagram where we are Rock Fight Co all one word and you can follow along or send us a message.

[A]

Well, like Owen alluded to, we do have a bit of a listener mailbag and we're going to start with friend of the pod and owner of the trailhead in Missoula, Montana. Todd Frank sent us a letter, sent us an email last week writing in to highlight how long low top hikers have actually been around. I guess on a recent episode we gave credit to Montreux for the category, but as Todd points out in his email, it was actually in the early 80s that we saw the first foray into this category and it came from a brand that is probably going to make some of the modern outdoor gatekeepers pretty mad. So Todd writes, hey guys, I listened to the episode this week about fielding Montreal, came up as an OG of the original low top hiker. Just want to call your young asses out a bit. I got my first pair of these and he sends a picture Nike lava domes in 1980 or 1981 and did a five day trip in the Beartooths where a couple of friends and their dads thought I was crazy and that I was going to die. These are in my opinion the OG Low top hiker. Not that Nike deserves any recognition, but they do deserve it here. And Todd included a photo and a description. I'll link it in the show notes but I'll put it up on Instagram of the OG lava dome. Dave, did that take you back? Do you remember the lava domes?

[D]

I do remember the lava domes. Lava domes are great. That whole first, you know, early 80s Nike line kind of pre ACG attempted outdoor was still just interesting, interesting colors. The lava dome I think they had the, I think there was the caldera was another one. But yeah, just some cool starting to see the fashion influence to hiking really early. But I'm not sure with that if that's the first one either though I would have to say that I think we could probably throw some rocks because where does solo come in or, or excuse Me, where does Oslo come in? I mean, what about the first high techs? Do those technically count? I mean, if you're taking kind of low. He's calling low top. Is that the light hiker category? And so I guess.

[A]

I mean, if you look at it, there's some. It's very cortezy. Right. I mean, it's not a. You does have, like, early Nike running shoe. Yeah.

[D]

Where, you know, like what he's even talking about had actually a kind of a hike aspect to it. Right.

[A]

But it was.

[C]

It was a. It was a run hike crossover. I thought it looked. Looks pretty sweet. They should bring that puppy back.

[A]

I agree.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Just really clean. Not all the bullshit that you see today. Yeah, I thought it was great.

[A]

I just love the narrative, the continued outdoor narrative that, you know, we talk about a lot about here. But like, I think of like the first sort of soft hiker. Just when I started working retail in the 90s. It's like, you know, the Merrell Moab and like, the Merrell being like, oh, they're sort of originating this, like, doesn't have to be a big, chunky, heavy boot thing. And it's like, no, actually, dumbass, when you were five years old, this. This other thing was already out there. So. Thank you, Todd, very much for your email.

[C]

So, Todd, thank you for calling us young. That. That was really. That was nice.

[D]

Yeah, that was. That was interesting.

[A]

Todd, if we're the young guys around here.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, wow, man. So we also got an email this week from listener Mason Colby, who wrote in to tell us about his new substack, which takes a look at the names of outdoor brands and products. He gave us a shout out in one of the recent posts as well. Anytime someone is looking at the outdoor industry the way we do here on the Rock Fights, we want to highlight them. And I've linked Mason's substack, which is called. Sorry, I think it's trail names. Yeah, trail names is the name of it. And so go there, check it out. Thanks for Mason, for writing in and listening in. I mean, it's the whole thing Dave was about, you know, how do we. Looking at the names of outdoor products and kind of, you know, ranking. Well, not ranking them, but like, you know, kind of breaking them down a way, which I think is kind of right in our wheelhouse for sure.

[D]

Yeah. Like you said, Colin, we have. We've spent a lot of time, probably an inordinate amount of time and an unhealthy amount of time talking about names and Brand names. And are they appropriate? Are they good, are they bad, are they evil?

[C]

Right.

[D]

The whole. The whole gamut. So anybody who kind of keeping a scorecard is probably good for us, you know, like those that track, like, terrorist groups. You need somebody out there doing the. Doing the legwork and really making sure we have an easily accessible database of what's gone right and what's gone wrong.

[A]

We need Mason to start tracking brand names without vowels and see how many are out there.

[D]

You know, ooh, that's a great category.

[C]

Or brand names. Brand names that are all lowercase.

[D]

Oh, lowercase.

[A]

And then bonus category, all lowercase. No vowels.

[D]

No, that's good. That's a subset for sure.

[C]

Right.

[A]

All right. If you would like us to read your email here on the Rock Fight, like Owen told you earlier, send us your emails. The. The address is myrockflightgmail.com. all right. The opening shot on today's episode of the Rock Fight is presented by Lem Shoes. As the summer season wraps up, now is a great time to get ready for fall with Lem's from easygoing slip ons and refined leather lace ups, which does sound a little dirty, as Shantae pointed out last week. I gotta. We gotta work on that copy to tough trail ready Boots.

[D]

I think it's. I think it'.

[A]

Sales are up.

[D]

Yeah. Interest is even up.

[A]

More Lem's offers footwear.

[C]

You and Chate, I mean, just. Yeah. I don't know. Dirty minds on the Wednesday podcast.

[A]

I gotta say thank you, Lemz for every occasion. And their fit is unmatched, everybody. If you've never experienced the fit of a pair of Lems, you know, I just feel kind of sorry for you. So Lems are built with comfort, durability, and versatility at their core. Their collection is ready to take you wherever the season leads. And with fresh, exciting styles just around the corner. Be sure to stay tuned to hear what they. What they have coming down the pike. But in the meantime, head to Lemz Shoes.com right now to get your feet into the best fitting shoe you've ever worn. And I think. Oh, and you follow it from last week. You got your Lemz.

[C]

I did get my Lem's, Yeah. A trailblazer. And then the. What was the other one? The.

[A]

The primal Zen, I believe.

[C]

Primal Zen. So I've only tried the Trailblazer, but the first thing that was interesting was my wife actually commented positively on a pair of shoes, which is that I wear. I know. That was odd. And then while I was recovering from that. My son actually said those look pretty cool too. So, yeah, off to a good start. That's really weird. He even tried them on to see if he could steal them. But I'm slightly larger footed but no good looking shoe. Yeah, great fit, nice roomy toe box, but without looking like an orthopedic shoe, like Altra does, at least in my opinion. Yeah, it's a good pair of shoes.

[A]

Okay, today's opening shot. According to an article on sgb, a new survey from the University of Michigan shows that US Consumer sentiment unexpectedly declined for the first time since April given the ongoing tariff turmoil and expectations of increasing inflation. So, Owen, can we just start basing with the basics on this one? Like when you hear about surveys measuring consumer sentiment, like, what does that actually mean? Like, if I'm an outdoor brand or retailer, is that something I should even be tracking somehow applying that information to my business planning? I mean, isn't it something that we kind of already know if we're paying.

[C]

Attention a little bit? I mean, I would say, first of all, this isn't just some survey, right? And this isn't just some university. This is the University of Michigan.

[A]

Oh, God, what if it had been from Ohio? What if, you know.

[C]

Nobody would care. But no, I mean, this survey has been around since the 50s, right? And so it really, it is the survey, right, that everyone talks about and they've been doing this for, you know, decades, driven by a detailed interview of at least 600 people. And a lot of them are repeats so that they can compare their answers to before. And really it's to show the overall direction of, of the economy. And they take all these questions and really it's about how do you feel today versus a year ago? All that kind of stuff. But it really has been shown to be a good predictor of consumer sentiment. And more importantly, consumer spending, which actually drives two thirds of our gdp, is consumer spending. So it is a pretty good predictor. It predicts recessions. You go back to 2008. It was tanking in the early part of 2008 before everything really hit the fan in the late part of that year. So people really do keep an eye on this. And then in this context, after the tariffs were announced, it dropped to 52.2 in April and May. Then it climbed back up to 61.7. So as people said, oh, this tariff thing is no big deal. I guess it's overblown. There's going to be no price increases, but then plunged back down to 58.6 in August. So definitely people are listening. And I think more importantly is they're not just listening to the news. But I think what you saw in August was people actually seeing it in the prices that they're paying for stuff for the first time. And for a comparison, it was 67.9, so 58.6 this August, 67.9 last August. So a big year over year drop. The interesting thing is it peaked recently or the recent peak was a 74 in December. So right after the election, everything was like, oh, it's going to be great. The Trump term. Trump is the master economist, whatever, whatever. And now people are like, oh, shit, reality has set in. This guy doesn't have it.

[A]

So speaking of that, regarding the survey itself, so the article states that consumer sentiment dropped unexpectedly. I mean, given everything going on, doesn't it kind of stand the reason that this was a little expected?

[C]

Right. Well, no, right.

[D]

That's what I think too.

[C]

Unexpectedly.

[A]

Like, I don't know. Sounds like we talk about, maybe we just talk about it too much on our podcast.

[C]

I think there's a tendency among most economists to somewhat, I don't know, at times shrug off the consumer and just kind of. They don't know. They don't know what they're doing. Right. And the fact that the consumer had bounced back up pretty quickly after the initial drop and the fact that the stock market, because some people view the stock market as another proxy for the economy and consumer sentiment. So the fact that the stock market was still at record highs, but now consumer sentiment's taken a big dip. That I think was the big disconnect. Like, oh, shit, what is going on here? And again, I think it is actually the consumers are going, oh, no, this tariff thing, we're getting it now. It's real. It just didn't come right away, but it's coming and it's going to be bad.

[D]

You put all these together, everything's about the tariff, tariff, tariff, but the job market itself.

[C]

Right.

[D]

I guess this is something too that just kind of, it's like we've lost 300,000 federal jobs. That's just federal jobs. And they tend to be, you know, white collar and in a lot of the departments and spend a lot of time outside, frankly. And then you're talking, then we have just the layoffs going on in all these other sectors. It's just, I feel like there's a little bit of just ignoring the big, the thing going on that's affecting everyone. And we just, It's a tariff, but it's like, no, it's more than that.

[C]

I think that's a very, very fair point, Dave, that there's a lot going on. I think AI is a huge source of stress for people as to what that's doing because it really is attacking the underpinnings of societies and careers and all sorts of things. You've got new college graduates that are facing probably the worst market for new college graduates in years, some of it because AI is basically taking all of those jobs that used to be done by the grunt work that the new college graduates would go in to get their feet wet. And then you've got other areas that are being completely replaced by AI. So it is a combination agreed of more than tariffs. It's tariffs, it's the economy, it's unemployment. It's just the overall level of uncertainty that we have today.

[A]

All right, so same thing I always ask you. You're sitting back in your chair, CEO of Moose Jah. You're looking at this. What do you do?

[C]

Well, I'm going to be careful and we'll get to it later. I'm going to be careful in terms of my preseason orders. I'm also probably going to be cutting costs and sort of trying to get more of a hardened balance sheet, so to speak, in terms of having cash because you don't want to. In an ideal world, you're prepared before the bad things happen. Because if you start cutting after the bad things happen, typically it's much, much worse. All right.

[A]

So yes, stay tuned for part two of this conversation coming up in the main topic of show, because that's what's coming up next. Good teaser. Next up, we have to talk about gravel running shoes, guys. All right, a year ago, at least a year ago, Justin Hausman and I responded to some brand, I forget who it was, starting to talk about a new category of gravel running. Last month, Owen and I talked about seeing Craft's lineup of gravel shoes at the Outdoor Market Alliance Media show, which they said was more of an internal designation, not like something they weren't looking for retailers to add a category. But this week, Amer Sports CEO James Zhang spoke about Salomon's recently launched gravel line. And if you visit Salomon's website, you can see the category for yourself. They're calling them gravel shoes. I want to talk about gravel, but I want to approach this from two points of view. First up, is this sustainable for running? And second, from a retailer perspective, do we need or want an entirely new header on the footwear wall between road and trail. That is a gravel specific designation. Dave, when you look at running from a brand and creative point of view, do you get excited about the prospects of growing the category this way or does it simply divide resources that could be applied to trail running, which as we all know is exploding right now?

[D]

I think it's the same thing, Colin. I think this is a, a distinction in search of a reason. Now, from a storytelling perspective, the idea that you are able to talk about a surface as a, as an activity viscerally like I can certainly hear the sound of the footsteps on the gravel. Crunch, crunch.

[A]

So different from a tram too. So it's just so radically different.

[D]

Sure, that's definitely more of a thud, Colin. I mean, come on, can't you get that? But, but it gives you a sense to change up your environment. So you are kind of. But you are telling the same stories. Right? For sure. But so from that, I like that. But from a product perspective, I mean, it is silly. I have a gravel shoe, I have a trail shoe, I have a road shoe, I have a day shoe, I have a night shoe. I have my hybrid gravel and trail, which is a little bit of dirt, a little bit of rock. Right. So it's like, you know, it does get a little bit wacky when you think about it that way.

[A]

You made me think of the creatives. Now it's like, how am I going to show this? Okay, look at all these old trail running videos. Well, that kind of looks like a gravel trail.

[D]

Is that smooth river rocks? Are they kind of more of a sharper, kind of gravelly? I can't really get that. What's my inspiration?

[A]

I don't want to take this seriously, but I mean, it's like Solomon. And this is not us taking another jab at Solomon, which we know we have fun doing at our. Because of our own missteps earlier this year. But it's also like, man, it's a category. They're putting it on their website as a category. Like that says to me that they're going to say to retailers, you also should have a category.

[C]

Category.

[D]

Is it a category or is it just a couple shoes that we call gravel?

[A]

That's probably what it will amount to being.

[D]

Look at the voiceover opportunities, Colin. I mean, really, you could really segment this. This is pretty cool.

[A]

Sometimes you don't want to ride on a trail, run on a trail.

[C]

In a world.

[A]

In a world where sometimes you're on a trail that's a little smoother than other trails.

[D]

Well, well, you have to run smooth.

[A]

Run smooth. There's the tagline.

[C]

Smooth.

[D]

There you go.

[C]

I think each pair should come with a little set of calipers. And so you go out on the road and then you see, okay, is that a pebble or is it a piece of gravel? If it's more than you're going to change from the gravel to the trail running shoe. And then if there's no gravel and.

[A]

You all have to. You run with a running vest now. So you have your trail running shoes with you. And if the trail changes, you Change your shoes 100%. And then eventually we'll have brands who come out with, like, removable outsoles. And you can put on the gravel outsole with the trail outsole. Right.

[C]

Kind of. Kind of like backcountry skiing. Yeah. You get the skin.

[A]

It's a skin.

[C]

Okay. Got it. Love it. Yeah.

[A]

So, all kidding aside, Owen, from a retailer perspective, like, would you embrace this and lean into it, or is this just a trend that's probably going to fizzle out at some point?

[C]

Sure. I mean, if it helps me sell more shoes, I am all over it. Bring it, baby. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a category that in some ways, a. It gives. If I'm truly an outdoor retailer, it's a category that gives me a little bit more permission to stock those shoes as opposed to a pure, pure road running shoe. So that helps. Although, quite frankly, that hasn't stopped a lot of outdoor retailers from stocking pure, pure road running shoes. But, yeah, I mean, I think if they sell, I would sell them. It's also potentially a way to sell a consumer that just bought the trail running shoes. Well, okay, now those are for the trail. Okay, but how are you going to get to the trail? Okay, now you're gonna need this other pair just to get to the trail. And then, in fact. And then here's these road running shoes to get you to the gravel before you get to the trail. So I'm gonna sell you three pairs of shoes for one. It's gonna be great.

[A]

I remember when Justin and I did talk about that. Cause he was even thinking, like, God, like, you know, sometimes I gotta run it. Run the road to the trailer. Can I. Can I do that in my trail running shoes? And like, these little, like, thoughts that kind of get embedded in your head that we obsess over at times. Like, the trauma that you're creating for the runners out there by adding more things is not okay. Running brands scale it back.

[C]

I think it does make sense, though, for Salomon because obviously their core DNA is trail running. They would love to get more of that sweet, sweet road running money. Right. Bigger category. So this kind of gives them that on ramp, so to speak, from trail to road. I think they do sell road running shoes today, but this gives them a little bit more of a way to get there.

[D]

That's. You're right. It's a transition. In a sense. Gravel is like the road unfinished. I think this is.

[C]

That's a novel sprites itself.

[D]

Right? It does. That's gravel running the road unfinished.

[A]

Boy. Okay, well, staying in the footwear world. So it was an interesting week for vans. Starting last week on, on this podcast where I mentioned that my kids are currently in a vans or lame phase. Followed by a post on hypebeast's Instagram of the vans future clog. And then lastly on Thursday of last week, Footwear News reported that Vans and all vulcanized rubber footwear brands are poised for a comeback based on the hype around Vans old school souvenir, a shoe that was Inspired by an 11 year old messenger bag. The interest in that shoe showing that those who tracked the footwear space at vulcanized rubber kicks could soon be back in style. So, Dave, weird week for vans where on one hand you have the future clog, which we both believe is maybe the wrong way to go for a Vans clog. And then you also have the old school souvenir, which feels right in the bullseye for probably what you'd want from vans. What are your impressions of where Vans is as we sit here in August 2025? I mean, do you agree with Footwear News that a resurgence is imminent?

[D]

Well, sure. You wait a, wait a few months and you're going to get a reemminent of every style that goes up and back. You know, I, I kind of see vulcanized and boots as kind of the kind of polar opposite pieces and so they tend to balance each other out. When one is up, the other's down. And so I think that's. Sure. I could say sure.

[A]

What'd you think? What'd you think of the clog? It's sitting right there for them. Yeah, just do a can like a canvas, a black and white checkered canvas clog. You know, it's just like make a clog out of the shoes that everybody.

[D]

Loves, you know, and they have pretty much mined all of their original silhouettes, the standards, the, the skate highs, the half cabs. They've put in pretty much every type of shoe you can.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You know, entitled to Mine that so. Yeah, why not one more with a. If you want a. If you want a comfy, cushy, you know, mushy clog, sure, like no problem. But yeah, it just, it doesn't seem, it doesn't feel to me vans, you know, but they've been pushing a lot of. Some of it good, some of it bad. They've been pushing a lot of boundaries for a while. I mean they certainly made a foray into the mountain space a little bit with some mixed results. But yeah, that one just didn't feel right.

[A]

You know, Owen, for the people who, you know, a little bit gatekeepy again around the outdoors. I mean, should we even be talking about vans on an outdoor podcast that aims for the head?

[C]

It's a fair question. Because the core vans line is definitely fashion. I mean let's be honest here. But we sold vans at Moose Jaw. We had their snowboard boots. You know, they do have a BMX line but which is basically really kind of sort of a redo of their skating pieces. And then they used to have hiking line. I went looking for it and I couldn't really find it. So is that.

[A]

I thought they released one like last year. Wasn't there a recent release of hiking shoes?

[D]

They still have. I don't know if it's a full on collection mte. So that's the, that's kind of the outdoorsy side. The cross path is definitely and the crestline are kind of the two main styles and they have those in kind of regular, extra duty, waterproof, insulated. There's even a Gore Tex version, you know, so they've definitely played in that. And again I think visually they look great if you, you know, they haven't had great success with them. A lot of close out to that stuff, but it's one of those where it might take a while to push that in there. And they did that in the late 90s, you know, again kind of, you know, marrying the BMX into some trail but you know, never enough to get into sponsorships. Snowboarding obviously was really the first kind of way to get into to boots which again I think they've cut up and down success and those. I mean they started snowboarding boots in the early night. I mean they were kind of very early to that. I was kind of looking at some of that and, and just kind of remembering. Remembering way back when the first, the first signature snowboard boots with athletes 1997 with Jamie Lynn, Sean Palmer and Cersei Wallace were the first signature boots to that and Those really, again, kind of brought the classic vans feel to boots. And I think they've always, ever since then, have seen the ability to take that silhouette and bring it into other mountain or trail type of things. So it's still there. I just don't know how much they're pushing to it. And do you. Like you said, the fashion has gone the core of the line, which kills me because I would still hope and pray that the core of the line is skateboarding. Right. And that, you know, that should be still the performance aspect of skate shoes. It's not all about the vulcanized kind of piece. There's definitely technology that belongs in that kind of stuff. So I hope that they, you know, that that sport has changed and that whole industry has changed, but it's still, to me, the center of their being. Even, even before it was recognized as an action sport, you know, that was such the pure adoption of a subculture.

[A]

And it came out of surfing, by the way. It was people trying to like, mimic surfing on land. And I think, you know, that, you know, go back to Todd's email at the beginning of this episode, right? Nikes inner dipping their toes in the hiking water in 1980. I just like, you know, it absolutely belongs in an outdoor store. For my perspective, for us to talk about it, I think it's relevant. You sold them at Moose Jaw? If I live in a town, I have a great skate park and I don't care if I'm a backpacking store, you could justify selling some, you know, some decks and some trucks and some vans. Like, it would totally make sense as a part assortment.

[D]

I'm looking at a silhouette of the cross path right here. And let me say, if you put anybody else's brand on it that's like, from the outdoor native space, you're not going to question it at all. It's a good looking shoe.

[A]

Are you guys ready for the lightning round? First up, hiker core may be dead, but a new trend is just getting started because angler core is here. The fisherman aesthetic trend has arrived with inspired pieces based off of waders and cropped vests with lots of pockets. So, Owen, how high is the angler corps ceiling? Are we gonna see you at trade shows this fall wearing your new fishing vest?

[C]

No, no. Hey, I, I earned my outdoorsy look honestly through, through industry pro deals. So, no, I, I will not be. You're not gonna see me in, in an angling vest. But I, I don't know. I. This is just like the illogical conclusion or extension of the lumber sexual. I don't remember that one. Oh, of course, Core, all of that, which is basically just urban people wanting to appear connected to nature. And I'm not going to blame it for that. Everybody, you should want to compare, want to appear connected to nature or actually, you know what, connect with nature. That's also a good option. But these sorts of people and trends have driven our business way more than maybe we'd even want to admit. So hey, I'm all for it. Go for it.

[D]

Did you say illogical? Illogical. Conclusion. I disagree. Anytime you're talking that many pockets in one place, you have got some function going on. I mean, I think it's the most actually logical of all those adoptions. I mean, look, a puffy jacket in a cold northeastern city totally makes sense. But I'm just saying if you can cram 12, 24 pockets into one space, you're basically a walking pharmacy. You can just pour little, little pieces everywhere. It's fantastic.

[A]

All right. The only thing that one of you said that wasn't honest was Owen. He didn't pay anything. He got those deals for free. Let's be honest, there was no pro deals.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

By the way, so did the rest of us. All right, Right. All right, next up, a new gallery poll is reporting that alcohol consumption in the US has hit a 50 year low with 53% of America Americans now seeing moderate drinking as bad for your health. Dave. Outdoor brands have been touting their trail to bar products for more than a decade now. But this new study makes that phrase risky to alcohol adverse consumers. What will be the new cliche to prove a button down shirt can perform but also be kind of stylish?

[D]

We put the fun in fentanyl. Like, I don't know, like what are you gonna do?

[A]

As long as there's alliteration, it's acceptable.

[D]

I think it's totally, it doesn't have to actually work. I mean, what this is really saying is that the temperance movement is winning. And they may have started in the 19th century with our, you know, with our buckskin suits. At that same time. They had a little victory in the 20s. We were able to beat it back, but now it looks like it's gonna win.

[A]

Alright, last one. The Sports and Fitness Industry association recently issued a mid year report stating that 22.9% of Americans were entirely inactive during the first half of 2025. Oh, and in years past I would have assumed that these 23% of inactive people were probably getting wasted. But if no one is drinking anymore. What the hell were these inactive people doing?

[C]

I think unfortunately, they have let the tech industry take over their lives. So they're either doom scrolling on their phones, they're playing video games, they're binging squid game, or worst of all, having deep and meaningful conversations with ChatGPT.

[A]

Yeah, don't call out Dave like that.

[D]

Yeah, I give chat GPT advice, Colin.

[C]

Oh, that's just God. Okay.

[A]

Today's main event on the Rock fight was presented by Oboz, who wants to share their love of hiking. And we want to help them by uncovering all the different reasons we love to take the long, including the following. Number one, a dorky fanny pack becomes a cool hip pack if you're hiking with it. Do you wear it over your shoulder? How do we feel about the overall shoulder?

[C]

You can go sling. Yeah, that's. That's really cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That seems like I'm not gonna weigh in. I'm too old to weigh in on that one. Number two, hiking is the only time you can use trekking poles in public without people looking at you funny.

[D]

I'm sure that's true.

[A]

Nordic walkers in 2006 would take exception to that.

[D]

I'm just not sure either of those are true.

[A]

Number three, any walk can be called a hike if you're wearing the right boots.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

That's true. Yeah. Number four, especially if those boots are a pair of Oboz Highlight mid waterproof boots. Oboz Highlight is rooted in the spirit of Highlight Canyon. Designed for lasting comfort and made with recycled and bio based materials, the high Alite collection is designed to support your stride, whether that's out on rocky switchbacks or wandering closer to home. And this hiking appreciation moment is brought to you by Oboz of Bozeman, Montana. Oboz is the maker of premium quality footwear for the trail and the cupid to the outdoor world. Oboz. Love hiking. All right, for our main topic today, fall selling season right around the corner. Like we were talking about earlier. And Owen, this week on LinkedIn, you put up a post about the state of preseason orders. Now, they appear to be trending more conservatively. So you asked industry retailers, reps and brands to weigh in with what they're observing as they are looking to book orders for fall 26. You, of course, received a number of responses. Before we get into the reactions, why don't you give us the background here? What were you observing in the marketplace that led to this post?

[C]

Really? It's actually that right now we're wrapping up spring, summer 26 order writing. So theoretically done right. And I'm just hearing from a lot of brands and retailers that the retailers are really holding back on preseason order levels and they're really citing just all of this uncertainty. We've talked about tariffs and consumer confidence, et cetera, and they're worried about what will that do to fall sales on top of the fact that current sales are actually pretty soft too. And really those retailers, they remember the inventory glut of 22 into 23 when they really got stuck holding the baby on that one and they do not want to be in that position again. So really, they're basically saying, hey, brands, I'm going to push that inventory risk to you. I'm hoping that sales will still be great, but I'm just going to what we call in the industry, Chase. Right. Chase inventory and place ASAP orders or in season orders as I need them, rather than do it all up front.

[A]

So what were some of the responses you got?

[C]

Well, actually, probably my favorite retail response was from Todd Frank again. Todd Frank.

[A]

This is the Todd Franken. Lots of love on the pod.

[C]

We should have him on the pod. I mean, he is the new board chair for goa.

[A]

That's true.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. So we should have Todd on. But his was. His response was my own line is when I show up and sit down, I reach down and pull a wooden box of risk out of my bag. We spend the next hour pushing it around the table. Us pushing risk at vendors ASAP and them pushing risk at us preseason. We try to find a place where we can both live with it. It's a balance for me. Some vendors who behave well in D2C, I'm willing to take a much larger risk. Crappy D2C management, very low pre season, regardless of the deal. So just a really interesting comment. And that actually I think summed up the retailer perspective a lot, which is, hey, it's not all things for all people. If I'm cutting pre seasons, some I'm going to keep exactly the same. Others I'm going to cut way back and it's really a brand by brand discussion. And then on the brand side, friend of the pod, Andrew Gibbs Dabney from Lives in wrote a novel. It was like.

[A]

But at the prepping for his next appearance on BBC.

[C]

Oh, right. Yes, exactly.

[A]

He's got to get that BBC money.

[C]

Mm, that's sweet. BBC money. Yeah. I was just talking to Andrew the other day. He's like, why can't I get this kind of exposure in a market where I Sell my product.

[A]

Everyone's like, hey, where can I get your stuff? You can't get it here.

[C]

Okay, maybe they should launch in England. I don't know.

[A]

Go on Fox News. That's what you need to do, Andrew.

[C]

Oh, there we go. Quoting sort of the core of Andrew's novel. He said, when pre seasons are reduced with an expectation of similar sales to previous periods, then the brands don't have clarity to forecast and purchase accurately. This leads to brands making to sell and doing more of the buy as guesswork. If a brand forecasts incorrectly, the extra stock is concentrated in one location with one customer base, leading to an inefficient process in finding customers for those products. Ergo, closeouts and liquidation. Ultimately, retailers reducing pre season ordering in favor of chasing ASAPs will lead to more waste in the system and more discounting down the line.

[A]

Dave, you see Ergo, in a statement you take it more or less seriously.

[C]

I think it Ergo. That's a great question. I don't know.

[D]

I would say before the matrix I would have taken it less seriously. But after the Matrix, it's really an important part of any kind of diatribe or discussion of how the process and systems work. You would need to use Ergo.

[A]

But look, all kidding aside, I mean Andrew's point is very valid. It kind of breaks it down from, especially from a small band perspective of what their day to day life is like. Right.

[C]

Well the other issue from a small brand perspective is the smaller the brand. It's sort of ironic, but the smaller brand, the more they have to put down in terms of the deposit before the order is even placed. Upwards of 50% of the inventory. Right. So they're putting all this money down way in advance just to get the product made, then they've got to pay for it to get it on a ship. Okay, with pre seasons, at least when they get it here, typically they're getting it right at the door to the brands and then hopefully within 30 days they get paid. They're getting paid on the early side of the season. If it all goes to asaps, it might be months before they're getting paid. And it really stretches out that sort of inventory to cash cycle, which really is a big deal for emerging brands.

[A]

So what else did you hear from the folks on this thread?

[C]

Caleb Nixon, who was previously a senior exec with Sea to Summit in Australia, he actually kind of came in with a bit of a contrarian view, which I thought was interesting. He, he doesn't like preseasons, didn't like Them and actually sort of stayed away from them because a, they ate into margins because you're incentivizing the retailer to buy it pre seasons. Right. And oh by the way, the retailers can cancel those pre seasons at any time right up until delivery which can create all sorts of problems. Right. But even if they don't cancel then you've got this big delivery pressure to get it there in time otherwise you get in trouble. And so you're air freighting stuff in and doing all kinds of stuff. And finally it can create sort of these adversarial relationships between retailer and brand. So it was interesting to get that other side. Like okay, maybe not all brands view preseasons as the best thing on the planet.

[A]

So I mean Owen, and all this with any kind of concrete conclusions. Also, when you kind of go back to our first story, right about kind of consumer sentiment, like how does this all kind of tie together?

[C]

I think ultimately in terms of the whole preseason part of does come down to balance and partnership between retailer and brand and, and really the brands that are the better partners, those that do less DTC discounting, that have better spend in terms of top of the funnel demand generation for product that do deliver on time, those brands are not going to see big cuts through the D2C orders. Right. It's the other brands that are in trouble where they're maybe they're not core, they're doing some discounting, they've done some other things in the past. Those are the ones. I think they're going to struggle.

[A]

How do you do. I mean because there are some brands who probably have to be their business. They're tied into almost discounting on D2C. I was looking at a legacy brand. We don't talk a lot. Sarah Design's website this morning just because I happen to be doing some research on something and it's like 50% off, 25% off. And I understand it's maybe end of the season but I kind of get the impression not to call you out Sierra, but this is probably the kind of world you're living in now. How do you even break out of that? We hear that from a lot of brands who've built this business of well, we can't stay in business if we don't sell these products and we can't sell these products unless they are massively discounted almost all the time. You have to draw a line in the sand and just go for it and cross your fingers that it works out.

[C]

I think unfortunately a lot of brands are in this Overproduction mode where they're basically trying to push a rope. They're producing too much stuff to sell through at the price that they need to sell through it at. So they have to discount. I mean, that's just the end of the game. Or they don't have an effective demand generation piece at the top of the funnel. All of their marketing is at the bottom of the funnel. So they're just chasing the same customer that the retailer is chasing and it just doesn't work. Right. I mean you look at the, on runnings of the world or the Hokas or the whatever, the folks that are generating that big demand, they don't have a problem. Right. It's the folks that are scrapping for that last, last bottom of the funnel sale that are in trouble. And it takes, I think, one of two things. It takes either a somebody within the brand to say, hold on, we need to take a step back here from an inventory perspective and cut way back, cut back to what we can actually support and then rebuild from there, which is really hard to do and really hard to get buy in to do that from the ownership or the PE firm or whatever. Right. That's some tough love right there. The other aspect is, you know, saying, hey, listen, we're going to take our marketing budget and Instead of being 10% top of the funnel, 90% bottom of the funnel, we're going to go 70, 30 the other way. And guess what? Sales are going to suck for like 12 months. Right. @ least. Right. While we, while we recalibrate that and start to refill the funnel. But then things will, you know, things will be better ahead. And that's, that's what happened with them with New Balance. Actually. New Balance went through that. It was 18 months of sales just down the toilet and then, but they just invest and invest and invest on top of the funnel and then it turned around. So it takes really tough decisions and discipline to make it happen.

[A]

I think you just went for the whole zombie brand conversation we've had was pretty subjective when we first started talking about it. It's like, oh, a brand that used to be relevant, that isn't as relevant and kind of like you know it when you see it kind of thing. I think you just described the formula of what an actual zombie brand is. Right. Because if all you're doing is discounting to stay in business, but you're never going to break free of that cycle, that's kind of what you've turned into at that point. Because to your point, retailers aren't going to trust you to go and do something meaningful in that arena. At this point, you're like, well, okay, if we dial back, we're going to lose X amount of revenue, which means we can't operate anymore. But you're not really making any money because you're sacrificing all of your margin to discount it all. I mean, that's really what a zombie brand is at the end of the day, isn't it?

[C]

Right. Because the discounting undercuts everything. It undercuts your pricing discipline, it undercuts your value in the consumer's eyes. It absolutely undercuts your value from a retailer's perspective. If they've got to compete against the D2C brand, that's discounting or breaking their own map policies, or you name it, it's a race to the bottom or selling it at Costco. I mean, whatever. Right? I mean, it's a. Yeah. And it just, it comes from chasing top line sales at all costs and not supporting it with the demand generation to support those sales.

[B]

It's time for a parting shot.

[A]

All right, so for today, for the parting shot.

[C]

Hold on, hold on, hold on. Colin, before you get into whatever you were going to ramble on about, I think, as you know, I was a little upset about not being part of the 90s music playlist. And clearly, clearly there were multiple bands that were left out. So I have actually developed my own 90s playlist. And oh, by the way, you're kicking.

[A]

In the door with your own playlist.

[C]

I'm kicking their own playlist. And I want to go. I think we do another vote. Okay, Playlist versus playlist. Let's see who wins.

[A]

Oh, God. We're going to run another poll. We didn't do a poll with the playlist. You want us to put up a poll?

[C]

I do, because I know I'm going to kick your ass.

[A]

Okay, all right, all right. Well, hold on. The whole point of the playlist, so, like, you needed to have, like, what's. What are you listening? What are you doing while you're doing your, like, what's the context of listening to this playlist?

[C]

No, there was no, the only context was, let's get as many bands on this playlist that Colin and co totally forgot about.

[A]

That was like, I'm on a mountain bike ride. This is what I want to listen to.

[D]

I think if the answer is anything other than not caring, then it's not a 90s playlist.

[A]

You know what, actually this is a good point. This is the spite Playlist, which is a very 90s sentiment, so.

[D]

That's exactly right.

[C]

So, speaking of.

[A]

All right, what do you got?

[C]

Okay, speaking of spite, I'm starting off with Head Like a Hole by Nine Inch Nails.

[A]

All right.

[C]

I mean, if ever there was a CD scene just filled with venom, like from. From Head like a hole to ring finger. I mean, just. Ah, beautiful. Right? So. So that's 1990. Then we're going to roll into 91. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'm pretty sure all of these bands, as amazing as they are, didn't make any of your playlists, just FYI. Okay, so Nine Inch Nails. So my second one is Black by Pearl Jam. So obviously off of doing Black isn't.

[A]

Like an outdoorsy song. You can't be out there riding around your mouth.

[C]

Oh, Lauryn Hill is an outdoorsy song. I mean, what are you talking about?

[A]

Dave and Shantae. I mean, come on. I can't speak. I mean, sorry, not Dave. Sorry. Doug. Doug. Sorry. Doug and Shantae.

[C]

Sorry.

[A]

Too many D names. So I did mention Pearl Jam and I did mention Nine Inch Nails, but keep going.

[C]

Okay. All right. But you didn't pick them, though.

[A]

I didn't pick them.

[C]

Okay, so. Yeah. So Black Bay, Pearl jam, off of 10, obviously amazing album. Just great album.

[A]

One of my all time favorites.

[C]

Even Flo Jeremy. I mean, just. Right. But Black would be my choice there for that one. 1 92. Killing in the Name. Rage against the Machine.

[A]

Okay, that was an. I considered that one for that.

[C]

Is that. That I listened to that cd, like on repeat. That was just. Yeah. And Honorable Mention to Someone to Shove by Soul Asylum, by the way, for 92. But they just didn't quite make the list.

[A]

Contrast there.

[C]

Yeah. Well, hey, you know, hey, the mosh pit was the place to be back in the day. Okay. 93, Creep by Radiohead. Okay.

[A]

Radiohead made the list. The dog had just. They had just by.

[C]

Okay, fine. All right. Okay, well, we'll leave that one then. 94 actually was. There were so many good bands at the beginning. It got little thin towards the end.

[A]

That was my experience too.

[C]

Right. Yeah. So I actually went with Interstate love song by Stp Stone Copilot.

[A]

I love that song.

[C]

RIP Scott. So just. Yeah, another one of those CDs to listen to on Repeat. The honorable mention there for that year, and this was a tough choice, was Soundgarden. Black Hole Sun. Super Unknown. Just an Amazing, amazing CD. 95. I don't think you guys mentioned Green Day.

[A]

Green Day did not get a mention here.

[C]

Right. Okay. When I come around from Dookie, Another CD that was just.

[A]

That's kind of a chalk pick, but okay.

[C]

Oh, whoa. Please. Okay, fine. Chalk pick. What the fuck does that mean?

[A]

Of course, like, one of the most overplayed songs in the 90s. Like, you know, can't have that on the playlist. That's such a.

[C]

Like, you know, Basket Case, welcome to Paradise.

[A]

I go Basket Case. Probably welcome to paradise would be good.

[C]

Yeah, Basket Case, actually. Probably. But okay.

[A]

But they deserve to mention. You're right.

[C]

Yeah. I think actually the problem was that actually I wanted to do welcome to paradise, but it was. I think that one came out in 94, so I had. I had to. I had work to do. Fit it all in. Right. And that comes up later. You'll see again. So 96. What I got by Sublime. I know you're a hater. Apparently I'm a Shanti.

[A]

Shantae was a hater. I like. That's one of my. What I got is the remix or the. Or the studio. I like the remix one.

[C]

Well, actually, again, that's another one where the CD was more than the individual song. Like, Doing Time is actually probably my favorite song on that album. Or April 29, 1992 is another just awesome song.

[A]

I'm trying to picture young Owen listening to Rage Against Machine and Sublime. Like, zipping around in your Corolla or whatever. You're driving Ivan back in the day.

[C]

Eagle Talon, tsi, Turbo Baby. Oh, yeah, yeah. And then actually, Honorable Mention, it would. Would be Oasis, so a little bit softer from that same year. And that's kind of also Shout out to. I actually listened to a lot of the sort of the Brit pop type, sure. So like, you know, Stone Roses, Charlatans, James, et cetera, but none of them actually made it to the top of the list. Okay, so 97. All right. So to prove I have a softer side, I was getting married at the time at Criminal by Fiona Apple.

[A]

Okay, that's a good song.

[C]

Yeah, that is a good video, too. Again, that CD title, Just repeat. Just loved every song on it. Okay, getting into 98. This is where it starts to get a little thin. And so I have to admit, I sort of stacked things here to where I picked bands that. I actually preferred their stuff earlier in the decade. But they did. Did put out a song in 98, so I could then choose them. And so in this case, it was One Week by Bare Naked Ladies.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Okay. And so big Bare Naked Ladies.

[A]

That came out in 98.

[C]

It did. But their best stuff was really? Gordon in 92. And it's also. This is a bit of a shout out. So I was in Detroit, where we get a lot of great Canadian stuff on the radio that maybe you didn't get the rest of the country, like the Pursuit of Happiness, Our Lady Peace, the tragically hip City in color. I mean, most of these bands, people.

[A]

Are gonna go, okay, fine.

[C]

Okay. And finally, finally, the last one is Learn to Fly by the Foo Fighters. Again, I'm cheating a little bit here because actually their best album was the color and the shape in 97. That had everlong, My Hero, et cetera. But still, it counts. And we got Foo Fighters on the list too. So there you go.

[A]

Good list. I like your list.

[C]

Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know, we'll see if Shantae and Doug ever talk to you again, but, you know, it's a Listen. My only parting shot that I was gonna say is that SGB recently featured an interview with turtlefur's new CEO and producer Dave. Didn't bring it up today. How dare you. Producer Dave.

[D]

How could I get a word in edgewise with all of that? Are you kidding me? I would have pointed out, though, in that article, the quote that stood out to me is that they're gonna be louder, prouder, and expand the love and loyalty of a new generation of outdoor enthusiasts. So spot on. That's what you get to do when you have VC money coming in. So go talk to that consumer, expand that marketplace. Good for them.

[A]

And play Owens list on repeat. Turtle for that's the only other thing we can do. You can tell you there.

[C]

Absolutely.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

All right, Good job today, guys. That's the show, everyone. We want your emails like we said. Send them to myrockfight gmail dot com. Especially you, Todd Frank even. We have a lot to live up to after this episode. The Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight llc. Today was produced. Today's episode was produced by producer Dave. Art direction provided by Sarah Gansert. For Owen Comerford, I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And once again, Less Than Jake does not make a top 10 90s list, but Kristen makes us here anyway to sing the Rock Fight Fight song.

[D]

It's nice of him.

[A]

We'll see you next time. Rock Fighters.

[B]

Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Welcome to the Rock Bike where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews. Ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock flight. Rock flight, Rock fight. Welcome to the rock flight. Rock flight, Rock flight. Welcome to the rock flight. Rock flight. Rock flight. Rock flight, Rock fight, Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight, Rock flight fight.