Profitability vs. People: REI Cuts Pay & Benefits - Outdoor Unfiltered

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rock Fight – Outdoor Industry & Adventure Sports Commentary
Episode: Profitability vs. People: REI Cuts Pay & Benefits - Outdoor Unfiltered
Date: March 16, 2026
Host: Owen Comerford (A), Guest: Colin True (B)

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers a candid exploration of the tensions between financial reality and employee welfare in the outdoor industry, spotlighting recent decisions by REI to cut pay rates and benefits. Host Owen Comerford walks listeners through the rationale and ramifications of these moves, while also covering challenges faced by Vail Resorts and providing a much-needed “Unfiltered Upside” with good news from the industry.
Later, Colin True, founder of The Rock Fight, joins for a deep-dive review of new brand campaigns from The North Face and Merrell, plus a critical look at the industry’s oft-quoted $1.3 trillion “outdoor recreation economy” figure.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. REI’s Cuts to Pay Rates and Benefits

[00:44 – 11:10]

• What Happened:
  REI announced a lower starting hourly rate for new employees and changes to benefits:
  • Slowing vacation accruals
  • Switching from guaranteed retirement contributions to a 401(k) match
  • Aligning sick day policy with legal minimums
• Why:
  CEO Mary Beth Lawton: “We’re still spending more than we bring in and expect continued economic pressure this year.” [02:10]
  This points to another unprofitable year, with REI on track for four straight years of losses (totaling $583M from 2022–2024).
• Context:
  • Payroll is 25% of REI's $3.5B revenue ($880M in 2024), much higher than competitors like Dick’s Sporting Goods (about 14–15%).
  • Payroll costs significantly increased from pre-Covid levels; some driven by new stores, but corporate payroll also ballooned.
  • National wage and cost-of-living increases mean employees are earning more in dollars, but not in real purchasing power.
• Financial Moves:
  • Sale/leaseback of distribution centers for $230M and a previous sale of headquarters for $368M (to Facebook), cushioning losses.
• Community Reaction:
  Announcement was poorly received, especially among staff and union activists:
  • Owen: “One of the comments I got back was...‘the outdoor industry doesn’t need a healthy REI, the outdoor industry needs fair wages and unions.’” [08:37]
  • Owen’s stance: “The union needs a healthy REI more than anyone. Otherwise you’re going to see fewer green vests, lower pay, and poorer benefits.” [09:23]

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2. Vail Resorts' Challenging Winter

[11:10 – 14:00]

• CEO’s Statement:
  Rob Katz (Vail Resorts): “This has been the most challenging winter across the Rockies that we have ever experienced, with the lowest snowfall levels in more than 30 years...” [11:16]
• The Reality:
  • Only a 12% drop in skier visits and 5% decline in revenue, thanks to increased prices and reliance on pre-sold Epic Passes.
• For Customers:
  • Pass prices now over $1,000 (soon $1,100), even as value diminishes: “It’s increasingly shitty for them...overcrowded resorts and super long lift lines...or skiing on basically ice.” [12:55]
  • Notably, pass sales declined for the first time this season, even as prices rose 7%.
  • Introduction of a “Young Adult” pass ($869) is a positive, but may be too little, too late to broaden accessibility.

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3. Unfiltered Upside – Good News

[14:00 – 15:00]

• Highlight:
  Arkansas-based sustainable apparel brand Lives In recognized as Arkansas’s Business of the Year.
  • Owen (disclosure: board advisor): “A company with such deep sustainability bona fides being recognized in a deep red state like Arkansas. Big congrats.” [14:13]

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4. Brand Campaign Reviews: The North Face & Merrell

[15:00 – 27:45]

• Context:
  Both brands released new global campaigns:

  • The North Face: “Never Just a Hike”
  • Merrell: “It Starts Outside”

• Industry Shift:
  Both campaigns break from “misery marketing” (man-vs-nature, ultra-elite athletes) to embrace inclusivity and everyday outdoor experiences.

• Colin’s Take on The North Face:

  • “I spent the entire two minutes watching the North Face ad just wanting to hate it...and I couldn’t because it was just fucking awesome.” [15:42]
  • Praises urban and gritty settings; focus on enjoyment and authenticity rather than extreme feats.
  • Standout moment: “They didn’t end on the person on the cliff...they ended with people in the back of a car going through a car wash. It shows you—this is everyday stuff.” [18:05]
  • Inclusivity: “For newcomers, that’s attractive...As opposed to the modern incarnation of Ueli Steck climbing Everest in half an hour.” [17:42]

• Merrell Campaign:

  • Colin: “A little more overtly saying ‘go outside how you want and we’ll help you along the way’...not quite as successful as North Face, but still really good.” [18:41]
  • Target: a wider range of outdoor participants, not just hardcore outdoor athletes.

• Comparisons to Columbia’s “Engineered for Whatever” Campaign:

  • Columbia’s ad is bolder, “raucous,” comic, and self-aware: “Done more for comedic effect...a little bit of an edge.” [23:46]
  • Contrasts with seriousness and emotion-driven approach from North Face/Merrell.

• Favorite Campaigns:

  • Colin ranks North Face #1: “It transcends the brand...I kind of want to show that to my kid. It’s just so good.” [26:15]
  • Merrell is a solid, if less memorable, third.

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5. Outdoor Recreation Economy – The $1.3 Trillion Figure

[27:45 – 35:20]

• BEA Report Headlines:
  Department of Commerce’s Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) pegs the outdoor recreation economy at $1.3 trillion.
• Industry Critique:
  • Both hosts and SGB Media ridicule the number for being misleading:
    • “It’s kind of bullshit, right?” (Owen) [28:34]
    • Colin: “Anything outdoor—amusement parks, building your deck, food, lodging...Somehow your deck counts!” [31:21]
  • The actual “core” industry (outdoor specialty products/brands) is likely worth $28–50B, a far cry from $1.3T.
  • Colin: “Our human-powered outdoor industry is twice as large as the NFL...But we underrate it because we’re always comparing it with $1.3 trillion.” [33:00]
  • Advice for startups: Don’t cite the trillion-dollar figure—focus on your real, addressable market.
    • Owen: “I can’t tell you how many pitch decks...quote this number...as soon as I see it, there’s an eye roll.” [34:18]
• Purpose of the Big Number:
  Hosts acknowledge its value in policy/legislation, but not as an indicator of the specialty industry’s real size.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On REI’s Financial Struggles:

  • “Those heavy losses...have put a lot of financial pressure on REI...it’s tight, and obviously what it means is that REI needs to find a way back to break even and quickly.” (Owen, [05:46])

• On Changing the Outdoor Narrative:

  • “It’s been the privileged few who live in mountain towns...that’s defined what is meant to be outdoorsy. This is a step in a positive direction.” (Colin, [17:33])

• On Columbia’s Boldness:

  • “Columbia really needs to reassert itself as a legit outdoor brand...Let’s do something to give us a little bit of an edge.” (Colin, [24:10])

• On Trillion-Dollar Myths:

  • “Let’s just not talk about the $1.3 trillion...Talk about your place within your core industry.” (Owen, [34:18])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• REI Cuts – Financial Breakdown & Rationale: [00:44 – 11:10]
• Vail Resorts’ Weather and Pass Strategy: [11:10 – 14:00]
• Industry Good News – Lives In Award: [14:00 – 15:00]
• Brand Campaign Reviews (“Never Just a Hike,” “It Starts Outside,” “Engineered for Whatever”): [15:00 – 27:45]
• Outdoor Industry Economic Mythbusting: [27:45 – 35:20]

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Tone & Style

Candid, insightful, and unfiltered commentary. Conversation flows like a lively campfire chat—with expert-level detail, challenging industry dogma, all seasoned with wry humor and deep love for the outdoor world.

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For Listeners

If you crave straight talk about the outdoor industry—especially the tension between profitability and people—you’ll get sharp analysis, behind-the-scenes context, and a much-needed reality check on the numbers that shape the business. The ad review segment is especially rewarding for those interested in the evolution of outdoor brand marketing.

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Best Quotes:

• “I spent the entire two minutes watching the North Face ad just wanting to hate it...and I couldn’t because it was just fucking awesome.” — Colin True ([15:42])
• “It’s kind of bullshit, right?” — Owen Comerford on the BEA $1.3T number ([28:34])
• “Our human-powered outdoor industry...is twice as large as the NFL...Let’s lean into it!” — Colin True ([33:00])

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For more episodes and to join the unfiltered conversation, subscribe and reach out via LinkedIn or email.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Welcome to Outdoor Unfiltered, where we dig beyond the PR speak to see what's really going on in the outdoor industry. Not just what happened, but why it happened and why it matters. I'm Owen Comerford, a former CEO, advisor to outdoor brands and consigliery to the Rock Fight. Today we'll be talking about REI announcing cuts to pay and benefits amid ongoing profitability challenges, a challenging winter for Vail Resorts, and then a little good news for a change. Then later in the show, I'll be joined by Colin True. Yes, that Colin True, founder of the Rock Fight to get his take on the new global campaigns by the North Face and Merrill, along with the announcement that we are part of a $1 trillion outdoor recreation economy. Okay, but before we get into it, I'd like to ask for your support. We are a new podcast. This is episode three. So your downloads follows and five star reviews really mean a lot. I'd also love to hear your thoughts on the pod. So please reach out to me on LinkedIn where I'm Owen Comerford E O I n or email outdoor unfilteredpodmail.com okay, well let's get into it and talk about the cuts to pay rates and benefits at rei. Well, according to articles by SGB and Bloomberg, recent internal REI memos announced a lower starting hourly rate for new employees and and a few focused changes to workers benefits, including slowing vacation time accrual, switching from guaranteed retirement contributions to a more traditional company match model, and changing sick days from an across the board policy to one that aligns state by state with what is legally required. And in that memo, REI CEO Mary Beth Lawton really didn't mince words about why they were making these moves. She said we're still spending more than we bring in and expect continued economic pressure this year. So really that quote alone is news. Okay, because we're not going to see the full REI financials until late April, early May. But it certainly sounds like it's going to be another unprofitable year for REI in 2025. Now that would make four straight years of losses. So that would be on top of losses of 155 million in 24, 214 million in 23 and 215 million in 22. So those heavy losses, they've put a lot of financial pressure on REI and it's actually led them to really be looking for cash. So most recently early last year, they did a sale leaseback of their four major distribution centers. Four for 230 million. And what a sale leaseback is basically means, is that they owned those distribution centers, they had built them, but they sold them to an investment group on the understanding that they would then lease them back from said investment group on an annual lease basis. So typically something that you do when you're trying to raise cash, and that was actually on top of the sale of their almost completed headquarters to then Facebook for 368 million back in 2020. So with these two real estate transactions, they've raised 598 million, so almost 600 million. And certainly that's going to help offset or cushion some of these losses, which we haven't seen what it is for 25 yet, but for 22 through 24 totaled 583 million. Okay, now it's kind of apples and oranges, profit, cash, et cetera. But just to kind of give you the order of magnitude of what we're talking about here, that, you know, it's tight and obviously what it means is that REI needs to find a way back to break even and quickly. With that as a backdrop, it, it really isn't surprising at all that they're making some of these moves, especially if you look at their, their P and L, as I do, because payroll is one of the co op's largest controllable expenses. It's actually, and I would say it is larger than other retailers. So if you look at 2024, for example, payroll related expenses were 880 million, which is 25% of its 3.5 billion in revenue. Now, for comparison, by my estimates, Dick's Sporting Goods, another big box retailer in sort of the sporting goods space, has payroll costs of about 14 or 15% of revenue. So quite a bit less than that 25% number, obviously. Different staffing models, different size business, et cetera. But just to kind of give you a sense also though, I think even more importantly is that that 880 million or 25% is a significant increase from the 631 million that they were doing pre Covid, which was only about 20% of revenue. So really, really tough there. Now, obviously some of the increase in payroll over that time period was because REI was opening stores. They actually added 30 stores over that time. So yes, you would expect more payroll there, but you wouldn't expect the corporate payroll to go up. In fact, you'd expect it to leverage. Right. Of course, a little thing called Covid happened along the way, which then led to a big inflation shock. So just nationally, if you look at hourly wages, on average they increased about 28% over that time period. So pre Covid to 2024. At the same time, the true cost of living index increased 31%. So in other words, retail employees like REI Greenvests may be making more today, but it's just not going as far. Now this news was obviously not well received by the store workers within REI and especially the union activists. I actually posted about this on LinkedIn and I was actually taken aback a little bit by the vitriol of some of the comments that I got in my post. I said here's hoping that these changes put REI on a firmer financial footing as the outdoor industry needs a healthy rei. And I truly believe that. But one of the comments I got back was the outdoor industry doesn't need a healthy rei. That's a joke. The outdoor industry needs fair wages and unions. So hey, listen, I am sympathetic to the union cause, but the reality is that the union needs a healthy REI more than anyone. Otherwise you're going to see fewer green vests, lower pay and poorer benefits. On to our next topic and I wanted to cover Vail Resorts Challenging Winter this week Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz gave an update stating this has been the most challenging winter across the Rockies that we have ever experienced, with the lowest snowfall levels in more than 30 years for our Colorado and Utah resorts combined with warmer temperatures resulting in reduced terrain rain throughout the quarter and into February. So, and you know, I would say if you guys have been to any of these resorts, if you've seen the the video on social media of basically bare earth in in places like Park City, you'll know that you know what, what Rob is saying there is not hyperbole. It was rough out there. However, he did go on to say, given that backdrop, we are pleased with the strength and stability shown by our operating model as we reported only modest declines in lift revenue in what many would consider a worst case weather scenario. And indeed, if you look at the numbers, their season state skier visits were only off 12% which surprised me. And actually their total net revenue was only off 5% which is kind of wild right now. Part of that is that they're milking more money from each visit by continually jacking up the price of food, drinks, lodging, et cetera. But really the biggest factor is that a big chunk of their revenue comes from pre sold epic season passes that have actually continued to increase in price and they're now over $1,000 for the full pass. Basically this model is great for Vail, right? They get all their money up front, doesn't really matter what the weather does, they're great. But what about their customers, right? I mean, the people that actually pay the bills, bring in the money, and quite frankly, it's increasingly shitty for them, right, because they're locked into these passes where, you know, when it does snow, they're looking at overcrowded resorts and super long lift lines. And then when it doesn't snow, they're either not skiing or they're skiing on basically ice. So not fun. Combine that with the fact that if you look at their sale of season passes going into this season, okay, coming off of some. Some pretty epically good winters from a weather perspective, out west, their sale of passes was down. Okay, so they sold less passes for the first time, but they jacked the price by 7%. So actually their, Their. Their revenue was up slightly. Okay, and now how do you think sales are going to be next season? All right, you're coming off of this awful season where a lot of people didn't get a whole lot of value out of the thousand plus dollars that they spent on their pass. How is that going to work? Especially when you consider that, guess what? Prices are going up yet again. We're at almost $1,100 for a pass. So this is just making skiing less affordable and less accessible for a larger and larger portion of the population. So what's Vail's answer? Well, in fairness, they did just launch a young adult season pass for those that are 13 to 30, and it costs $869. So that is basically 20% off the full adult rate. Or it's actually about the cost of what the pass used to be only three years ago. Ultimately, I would say that's a movement in the right direction, but hopefully it's not a case of too little, too late to help support the wider ski industry. All right, look, we spend a lot of time on the show talking about the challenges in our industry, but it's not all cherubs and trade shows. So it's time for the Unfiltered Upside, where we look at one thing that's actually going right in our industry this week. So this week, I'd like to give a shout out to Lives in, who was just recognized as Arkansas's business of the year. It's really great to see a company with such deep sustainability bona fides being recognized in a deep red state like Arkansas. Now, full disclosure, I am a board advisor to Lives in, but based on that, I can also tell you from an insider perspective that this award is really well deserved. So a big congrats to Andrew, Jake, Abby and the whole lives in gang. Keep up the good work. Okay, so it's time to welcome this week's guest and it is none other than Mr. Rock fight himself come true.

[B]

Oh, oh, listen to the. Listen to the Rock Fight esque intro. I love it. Thanks, bud.

[A]

Hey, you know, that's a, you know, bring out my inner Colin there for a second. So how. How the hell have you been? I mean, everyone I talked like, how's Khan? What's going on? What's happening?

[B]

Oh, I love that. That's great. A little mystery after such a public Persona in the industry is probably not a terrible thing. That's good. You know, you can, you can take the podcast away from me, but I still got my microphone. We're still, you know, Gear Abbey's going up once a week. We're helping you out with this one Rock Fight as the entities alive and well. If the Rock Fight had outlasted its purpose.

[A]

So.

[B]

So we're still podcasting, still doing lots

[A]

of fun stuff, and we will hear more from you when we hear more from you in terms of what's next.

[B]

Well, I mean, Gear Abbey's what's Next and Outdoor Unfiltered. I mean, that's what's next. Yeah, no, I got, I got a couple things on the more day to day front kind of cooking. So we'll see. Hopefully there'll be some amazing press release that goes out from, you know, into the, the outdoor PR that we're pushing back on so hard here on Outdoor Unfiltered that announces where I'm going to be.

[A]

I tried to get Dave on too, but I don't know if he's ready to announce anything yet. But he's kind of doing his own thing now too.

[B]

He's wandering the Mojave Desert on a vision quest. You know, I think he's back at his who knows where producer Dave is. He's out producing something somewhere.

[A]

So. All right. Because I tried to dangle brand campaign review and even that wasn't enough to bring him on. So. Okay. So Dave, if you are listening, we miss you, buddy. And you're welcome back on the pod anytime.

[B]

And listen, I, you know, those who know know that I'm a Dave's. Dave's the Brand guy. So I definitely feel a little naked here to talk brand without producer Dave, but I'm going to give it my best shot.

[A]

All right, cool. So with that, yeah, really the first thing I do want to talk about was the fact that North Face and Merrell just came out with really two new global brand campaigns. North Face campaign is called Never Just a Hike, and the Merrell one is called It Starts Outside. You can find both on YouTube. If you want to pause the pod right now, go listen to them so you know what the heck we're talking about. On last week's pod, I actually praised both ads because a little bit of a different feel, more of an emotional connection to the outdoors. Definitely some overall inclusivity and that more in terms of that, you know, really anything that you do outdoors is an outdoor activity. It's not all, you know, bloody hands and fingers. But I really, you know, I did miss this. You know, just the back and forth over something like this. So, Colin, with that in mind, what did you think?

[B]

Well, I mean, first of all, all those things you mentioned, boy, who. Who's been saying those things for years, right? I mean, I think people are on the now defunct best podcast of all time, the Rock Fight. We've been saying for years, like, hey, the outdoor. Anything that's outside, I look, I echo your sentiment. I love them both and I think it's a big step in that right direction for the industry. Right. It's what we have been saying for years, like, hey, brands, like, the data says that. And I know what you want to talk a little bit about the, the BEA report as well, but the every year outdoor participation increases in some demo or whatever, right? So. And as those aren't all people hanging off of cliffs, off of Ike, ice axes, those kinds of things. So it's a, it's a step in the right direction.

[A]

Do you think people actually in these brands listened to the podcast?

[B]

Well, yes, yes, clearly. I don't know. I mean, I guess, you know, we did hound them for a while and if we can take some credit for that, then, then sure, you know, I, and I. Look, every little bit helps, but I mean, somebody somewhere, definitely, whether they heard it from us or they figured it out on their own, you know, good on them. I mean, the North Face one, and I want to talk about both of them, but the North Face one, I was sitting there just queued up, you know, these things and you just. The tropes are so deep and we're jaded at this point of like, what to expect when one of these things comes out. And I spent the entire two minutes watching the North Face ad, just like wanting to hate it as I'm watching it, and I couldn't because it was just fucking awesome. Like, just like, so Good. They did such a good job of encapsulating all the things we're talking about. And I mean, and I think it's really fitting that the North Face did an ad like this because they're the brand that really established the look and feel of the modern outdoor advertising and storytelling that we do in the industry. It rose through the 1990s that look of kind of the big majestic places. It became ubiquitous without the way we look at the outdoors. With their climbing team capturing big feats in the mountains. So for them to lean into sort of the, you know, quote unquote everydayness of being outdoorsy, I think is really significant. And a couple of things I noticed. One was the use of urban environments. Right. That was great. And we, we know from talking to folks like Miles Howard like the, that urban through hiking is becoming a thing and urban hiking is becoming a thing. So acknowledging that beyond running, like more of an outdoor look at an urban environment, they, they chose you. Whether it was intentional or not. There's like a lot of steely kind of gray skies. Right. I mean, the focus being more on the human enjoyment and connection and less on putting people in their stuff in these sort of majestic, iconic outdoor locations.

[A]

I mean they, they even, they even had the lens covered in, in, in, in water droplets at times, you know, which really I, I felt, felt like kind of brought you into it. Like. Yeah, it's just, it's wet, it's, it's, it's, it's gritty, it's esque. I mean, call it what you will totally.

[B]

And, but it had that in a really professionally done way. And it chose to focus on people kissing, people jumping in rivers, people like there's one guy flipping off the camera, like stuff kind of again, that UGC vibe, but again about the human experience of going outside the fact you can go jump in a river that's obviously has a highway overpass going over it. Like it's an outdoor activity.

[A]

Right. You can see the concrete pylons. I mean this is not some beautiful, you know, glacier fed stream, you know, somewhere in the Alaskan wilderness. This is. Yeah. Just a river with a highway going over it.

[B]

Yeah. And I think it's been like the, the privileged few who live in mountain towns and you know, painting with a broad brush here. But those who know me know that that's kind of what I do. Like, that's to find what is meant to be outdoorsy for a really long time. And I think this is a step in a positive direction. And my favorite sort of just Chef's Kiss moment was the end of the piece where they didn't end it on, again. The person on the cliff, the person on the trail, the campfire with the tent. They ended on it with, like, three or four people in the back of a car going through a car wash. And it's like, it just. It shows you. Like, look, this is everyday stuff. This was just part of something that these people going outside was part of whatever these people did on any given day, and they're wrapping it up with a kind of mundane, everyday activity. And for people, think about the. The newcomers to outdoor activities. That's attractive. That feels like, oh, I'm them. That's me. As opposed to, like, you know, the modern incarnation of Uli Stack. You know, like, this guy climbed Mount Everest in half an hour. It's like, how am I supposed to even relate to that? Like, that is not what the outdoors means anymore to a lot of people. It still does to some people, but not to. Not to everyone.

[A]

So what did you think of the Merrill campaign?

[B]

Okay, so Meryl, and, you know, Meryl's definitely been a bit of a punching bag for us on the rock fight, mostly because some of their bigger swings in the way they kind of operate and even some of their baseline products just isn't really for us. And now that is personal taste more than anything else. Yeah.

[A]

Their collabs are famously weird. Yeah.

[B]

But they also can afford to do it. So good on you, Meryl. I hope it's working for you and the weird shoes that you're making. But their piece, the ad they released last week, it was a little more on the nose, I think, a little more overtly saying, hey, go outside how you want, and we'll help you along the way. I don't think the creative is quite as successful as the North Face piece, but, I mean, that's not really a dig at Merrell. Like, I don't know how much could really compare. That North Face piece was just that good. And I think the Merrell one was still really, really good. I think if the North Face. The North Face piece hadn't come out, it'd be getting a lot more attention. But I do like the sort of. So they kind of parceled up into, like, three different things of, like, hey, you know, you're an everyday person. You can wear our products. Hey, you're a trail runner. You can wear our products. Hey, you're a hiker. You can wear our products. And I think that the way they chose to do it and the Messaging similarly to the North Face piece that was really successful. And just again, you know, these are two big brands that make a lot of money and spend a lot of, you know, time in our space. And so they're acknowledging that things have changed. And hey, maybe the good old days, they weren't all that good. And in fact, at this point, they're probably just old, so we need to do something different.

[A]

Speaking of different, the old North Face campaign was called We Play Different. Right. And yeah, this is just. I mean, this is just a year ago. This is not like the Fargo history of our industry, but this was just last year. And it was very much in the old. What I would call in the old school. Right. It was what I love to call misery marketing, you know, which comes from that. Yeah, like 1980s, very North Facey man versus the mountain.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because it was always a man. And, you know, typically gritty shots, maybe black and white on the side of a mountain. And that, you know, We Play different was sort of the updated version of that. And it had more of a soundtrack and a driving voiceover and some great camera, great shots, etc. But that's what it was. It was like it was, you know, Alex Honnold, you know, with bloody fingers. Right, right. So this. This is definitely a departure from that. And. And also what I thought was interesting was it didn't go after ice climbing or whatever. It. The whole piece was, at least from the title was about hiking. Right, Right. Never just a hike. So on. On the podcast, on the Rock Fight and Off the Rock Fight, you and Dave and I would talk about, you know, is there a brand that's going to step up and own hiking? Do you think that is going to be the North Face after this?

[B]

I mean, it could be hiking. I still think that the title is out there to be claimed. I know why both of these campaigns are kind of pointing towards hiking, which is sort of the activity. And we've said this before, right, that it's like we all probably start our outdoor journey hiking, and we probably all finish our outdoor journey hiking. Right. And then along the way, we hike lots of miles. And it's the one thing that kind of unites every type of outdoorsy person that we probably. You probably own a bike and you probably have gone for a hike. Right. Those are the things that we all do to some degree. And I think that is still. And when I think of the purity of the activity of hiking, there's probably still an opportunity there for a brand to really kind of claim that but it makes sense that both of these things are sort of rooted around hiking because they're trying to show a more everyday approach. I mean, Merrill is a little more broad. Right. They talk about trail running kind of every day and hiking. But the North Face, it doesn't really feel like a hiking video. But you can see how hiking would be the undercurrent of all of those things. Right. Because whether it's. If you only define hiking as like, oh, you're hiking on a long trail and you're going to camp on the trail, those kinds of things versus in that video where it's like, hey, there's that rock over there. Let's walk up this trail and go look at it. And that's a hike. Right. So I think. I don't really get the sense that, like, they're going to be the owner of it unless this is maybe the first part of a. Of a longer campaign to do so. But I think they definitely could, and I think it would be smart to do it because, again, with more casual participants. That is the growing segment. That's something that somebody should own. And I think the. The we play different is interesting. Yeah. To have like, whatever it was 16 months between the two. I think there's still room for Wii play different. I mean, you know, the core we know isn't going anywhere. I think that's the funny thing about the loud voice that is the core is they're constantly like, you know, we're the most important part of the outdoor participation segment, but it's also the part that's never going to go away.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Back before there was outdoor gear and apparel, they still found a way to go outside. If you wiped it all away today, they would still find a way to go outside and be like, but it's the. It's the new folks, I think, that really need that attention more than they do. So I think there's still a place where things like we play different. But the right way to go for the industry and for brands is obviously more towards the casual consumer.

[A]

So the interesting thing for me was to compare these two a little bit with the Engineered for whatever campaign. Oh, yeah. And I would argue, I mean, that one certainly drew a lot more buzz than I'm hearing about for these two when it came out.

[B]

This is the Columbia campaign.

[A]

Sorry, the Columbia campaign. Exactly. For whatever. So this is the one. It's. It's very, you know, I would call it raucous. It's in your face. It's a lot of, you know, crazy Stuff going on and it's dangerous. So. So a very different approach and we actually praised that one. Oh yeah. A lot when it came out because it was a departure. Where would you put that in amongst these other two?

[B]

It's interesting because somebody could look at that and say, isn't that the misery marketing that you're talking about? Because they show broken bones and things like that. But it's done in such a silly way and sort of bombastic big way versus like the we play different. Felt very. It was exciting, but it was very serious. Right? Like hey man, we go outside, we take this shit seriously. Like you gotta.

[A]

Oh, it was very. Yes, it was. It was almost actually it was so serious that part of me thinks that the Engineer Forever was making fun of some of the bullshit that's in there. Right?

[B]

Yes, I agree. But. And, and the, the bone breaks or the snake bites or whatever in the Engineer Forever were done more for comedic effect. Of course. The very self serious outdoor industry. A few people would like to comment like this is going to keep people from going outside. It's like, is it really? If anybody saw that video, decided I'm not going to go outside, I don't think they were probably ever going to go outside is my what I think. But I mean, I think this comes down to the three different brands and three different needs from a brand perspective. I mean Engineer for whatever from Columbia, I mean they're the first one to kind of do something like this and I feel like this. The other two are still sort of in the same. The Venn diagram, I feel like crosses over. But there's elements of that campaign that were done, I think because Columbia really needs to reassert itself as a legit outdoor brand. I think, you know, they are definitely seeing, I think even the, the, the, the, the uninitiated would know that Columbia is for lack of a better word, a little soft maybe compared to the perception of what the North Face is. Right. And that was the. Let's do something to kind of give us a little bit of an edge to show that hey, we belong in this conversation. But I think that it still accomplishes sort of the same thing. It's still. So it's showing more like the excitement of the outdoors. Like hey, you can go on do these kind of fun big adventures by using just totally extreme crazy ways of things that might happen to you out there. Very unlikely, but might. And the other ones being a little more kind of playing the heartstrings or playing to like, you know, the. How you Feel about, you know, your day to day life and how the outdoors fits into it.

[A]

Sure. So if you had to pick a favorite, and I know that's not fair, but I'm going to put you on the spot because that's what we do here on, on the podcast. Of the three, what, what's your favorite?

[B]

Okay, well, number. I'll just go three to one. I think number Merrill is number three. And again, not fair. And I know I have a history of bashing Meryl, but I think, you know, and if they'd been the only one that come out last week and you would ask me to come on, I'd probably be sitting here telling you like, hey, what a great job from Meryl was so good. Good for them. But I probably going to have North Face number one. And that might be some recency bias, but I feel like whereas Columbia is very much like addressing their individual needs, you know, there's a couple of other video. Every once in a while some of these videos comes out that just sort of transcends the brand putting it out there. And it's like the North Face video. Like I kind of want to show that to my kid. Like, hey, this is a cool video. It doesn't matter who, who the mark belongs to. And I feel like that's kind of one of those videos. Like I'm rewatching again this morning before we recorded just to kind of see it again. I'm like, this is just so good. I just really enjoy watching it, which is like, you know, so it's a little bit more of a little elevated. I think I like that one the most.

[A]

Yeah, both the North Face and the Merrell ones definitely had more of an emotional connection for me, especially the, the North Face one, just with the people and the feeling of community there. I, I love the camera work. Like when they're under the blanket, you know, I assume at a campsite. Just so, so good. And I love the Columbia one as well, just for how clever it is.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

It hits in a different place than

[B]

I probably shared the Columbia one more. That definitely is a, like you got to see this kind of thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But in terms of personal enjoyment, I put North Face first. I mean, come on. Columbia had the green reaper chasing a trail runner. That was fantastic.

[A]

It is pretty fun. Yeah. Totally changing gears here for a second this week. The, the, the U.S. commerce Department Bureau of Economic Analysis. The BEA came out with their updated estimates for, for the outdoor recreation economy for 2024. And it pegged it at $1.3 trillion.

[B]

Colin, you put doctor, Dr. Evil Face Voice on $1.3 trillion.

[A]

It's funny actually, when, when, when SGB. I don't know if you saw the SGB article about this, but they kind of make fun of it. And, and actually anytime that they, that they mention the 1.3, it has an exclamation point after. So it's the 1.3 trillion. So anywho, it's an amazing number, but it's kind of bullshit, right?

[B]

Oh, totally. And I think you're getting a little of that in that SGB kind of running bit, which again, good job sgb. Keep more stuff like that, please. For sure.

[A]

More snark. We love it.

[B]

I guess we should start with thinking that like, I guess it's good that we still have the Bureau of Economic Analysis in our current US Government. If you had told me that had been like wiped out with everything in the last year, I'd be like, ah, sure, of course it was. So, you know, that's a, that's a positive, right?

[A]

Right, Right, absolutely.

[B]

But I want to start my response with a prediction. All right, here's my prediction is sometime in the next 12 months there will be another BEA report and it's going to come out saying that the outdoor industry is a trillion dollars large. And my prediction is that afterwards there will be think pieces and social media posts about how the number really is at a trillion dollars and how everyone misunderstands what this report is. And oh my God, did you know that oil and gas is part of this report? And I'm making that prediction because this is what happens every single time this report comes out. Nobody except for Kyle Frost really ever really digs into it. I feel like a lot of people like, oh, here's what's in it. But they don't say why it matters. And we all spend a month going, oh my God, you see that report? But it's not really what the number is. And then we move on. And then eight months later, another report comes out and we do it again. But I did go back and check. So Kyle Frost, aforementioned, came on the rock fight on November 29, 2023 to talk about this topic after he did his 2023 breakdown of the report. And it's just become a new annual tradition. It's up there with debating trade shows, you know, asking if outdoor activities have become mainstream, pondering if the North Face is still an outdoor brand. It's just one of the things we do now. But yeah, I think if you. It's all Together an interesting number if you parse the report in the right way. But the way it gets tossed around as Bible truth is it's like borderline irresponsible at times, depending on who it is you're talking to.

[A]

Absolutely. But now, in fairness to Kyle, if you haven't read his breakdown, it is actually pretty cool. It's a little nerdy, I'm not gonna lie. But I think he'd be okay with

[B]

you calling it that. I think he'd be like, thank you, but yeah.

[A]

But it is kind of crazy though, when you do break this whole thing down, just how little is about, you know, our human powered activities. So I'm not going to geek out like Kyle's style, but when you break it down, the economic value added by hiking, camping and climbing of that $1.3 trillion is 7.8 billion. And actually I'm saying that incorrectly because the economic value piece is not the same as the 1.3 trillion. We could go on and on. Anyway, suffice it to say it's. It's not. There's so much more in there. There's gardening there, there's. I think sporting events are like anything outdoor.

[B]

Amusement parks. Anything. Amusement parks inside is technically outdoor recreation to this report.

[A]

Right. And anything that was involved with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So lodging, food, you building your deck

[B]

last year is like, that's outdoor recreation.

[A]

You know, somehow. Yes, yes, it was. Certainly for me. Now, the way I think about our outdoor industry is all of the stuff that's sold pretty much by specialty outdoor brands. The Columbias, the North faces, the Merrells, the Patagonia of the world. Right. And if you look at this circana data, they would peg the retail value of those brands across specialty, E commerce and some of the big box players at around 28 billion. Okay. And now that doesn't include their brand's own D2C. I don't think it includes Amazon. So Maybe, maybe it's 50 billion, but that's still far, far cry from 1.3 trillion.

[B]

And I think it's fair to include DTC and Amazon. I mean, you talk to any of those brands like DTC and Amazon are important part of their pnl. Right? I mean, like that's going to be what they do. But I think then that's kind of my beef and why I'm making fun of the report and how we cover the report. It's like $50 billion. That's a big number. Right. And it completely gets lost because we're talking about comparing it to 1.3 trillion. And look, I know this isn't an Apples Apples comparison, but I just did some digging around this morning and on AI, so take it with a grain of salt, but apparently the NFL, the National Football League, which, you know, for a lot of people it takes up a lot of time and airspace and the ways we spend our days here in the United states, that generates $23 billion every year. So our human powered outdoor industry going off of 50 billion is twice as large as the NFL. But we honestly say that, oh, this is a lesser than thing because we're always comparing it to $1.3 trillion, which includes things like oil and gas and I mean, when you're up against big oil, whoever wins in that conversation. So again, it was like we lose the narrative, like what matters? Let's lean into it. Hey, my God, we're a $50 billion industry, guys. We have big meaningful brands like Patagonia and the North Face and arc' Teryx and stuff like that who really affect the way the rest of that $1.3 billion operates because people in all those categories, whether they're at an amusement park or they're overlanding, are probably wearing the shit coming from our 50 billion. So I mean, look, taking on its own merits, our industry is consequential and significant. And you know, I think it is interesting, like, you know, Kyle's recent breakdown, you mentioned the broader recreational economy on its own, all of those things that aren't just human power, that's probably more than the 6 or 700 billion dollar range. It's still pretty big, but the conversation just stays focused on that bigger number every year, you know, So I think I don't know what we do with it. I know a lot of people say let's, you know, how do we focus on it to like influence policy and environmental regulations and things like that. But I also feel like most of the time this just exists for us to talk about how that's not a real number or for PR people to put out there and be like, oh, my brand's part of the $1.3 trillion economy, you know?

[A]

Absolutely. And I would say I can't tell you how many pitch decks for emerging brands I've seen that quote, this number. And I've got to tell you, as soon as I see it, my, my, there's an eye roll, right? And so please, emerging brands, if you're listening to this, stop Talking about the 1.3 trillion. Talk about the 50 billion. Talk about your, your place within, within your core industry. But let's, let, let's just, let's just not talk about the 1.3 trillion. I guess to your point, it's a good number to have for, for legislation and hopefully, you know, getting our senators and our congresspeople off their ass to protect public lands and what we do. But, but yeah, let's just leave it where it is now.

[B]

It's embarrassing. You're just, you're going for the biggest number and you hitching your wagon to without really understanding what you're doing. And then if you get someone like oh, and it's like maybe is interested in your brand or helping you out or talking to you, you see that number, I would same thing. I immediately would be turned off and I'd be like, hey, my parting advice is dig two or three layers deeper would really go a long way. I know what that number is and I don't buy what you're selling me right now.

[A]

All right, Colin, thank you for stepping in today, providing your, your insight here. That is our show again as a new pod. I'd really appreciate it if you would give us a follow in a five star review. It helps to boost the pod so that other folks can discover us also with that follow, it makes sure that you're not going to miss an episode and so you stay informed and connected to our industry. If you'd like to reach out with your thoughts, guest ideas, sponsorship offers or whatever is on your mind. Yay. Hey, hey. Hit me up on LinkedIn or email outdoor unfiltered pod gmail.com Outdoor Unfiltered is a production of Rockflight LLC for Colin True. I'm Owen Comerford. Thanks for listening. Hope to see you back here next week.