← The Rock Fight: Outdoor Industry & Adventure Sports Commentary
The Rock Fight: Outdoor Industry & Adventure Sports Commentary
REI Retreats, Orvis Shrinks & Lulu Loses Its Mojo
00:53:52
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- [00:01]
A
This just in. Breaking news from the Rock Fight. In a stunning development that has rocked core outdoor enthusiasts from Midtown Manhattan to Sand Hill Road, Planet Earth, the primary shareholder, has announced its intention to divest all holdings in polyester based outdoor brands. Sources close to the planet report increasing frustration and complaints that the relationship had become toxic. It's not a great look for me to be associated with billions of dollars of brightly colored jackets that shed enough microfibers to choke a pod of whales, earth said in a filing statement. It's unknown how this will affect larger markets, but it's rumored Mars is exploring a long overdue decoupling from Elon Musk.
- [00:42]
B
Alright, while that may not be true, you know what is true? Ibex Marino is as home in your shop as socks and sandals. We're talking authentic heritage, real sustainability, privately owned and of course, premium performance that has become legendary. From everyday essentials like the goatee to expedition ready pieces like the mammoth hoodie, Ibex has a premium merino lair ready to outfit any of your customers. Schedule some time with the Ibex team at GOA Connect in Kansas City this November. Ibex Premium merino, not polyester. Welcome to the Rock Flight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that age. I'm Colin True and joining me today, they just took out a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal to complain about the other Rock Fight podcast hosts. It's the Monday Boys, producer Dave and Owen Comerford. What's up guys?
- [01:44]
C
Yes, I think it was time, Colin, that we put you in your place.
- [01:47]
B
It was me. I mean, I know schnitzpahn gets under your skin.
- [01:51]
C
Oh, and don't even talk to me about Shantae. Oh my gosh.
- [01:55]
A
I was complaining about the Monday Boys moniker, but that was a different, different ad.
- [01:59]
B
All right, today we are going to talk about Chip Wilson's Wall Street Journal ad as well as some other headlines that come out of the outdoor industry. But first, some programming reminders. Listen everyone, we never want you to miss an episode of the Rock Fight, so please click Follow on the podcast app you're using right now. Just do it right now. And then you could press pause and do it if you need to. Just please click Follow and then come back. Not to the Rock Flight, but to gear Abbey. You should click Follow on that podcast feed as well, where on Thursday you're going to get a whole new episode with host Shantae Salibare, who answers all of your burning outdoor questions. Be sure to also follow Open Container and Gear Abbey Open Container still on hiatus, but you can check out that back catalog. We have one more new episode coming there and then some news around. Open Container coming down the pike. And Dave, you want to tell our listeners if they want to get a little more from the Rock Fight universe, what they should do.
- [02:47]
A
More from the Rock Fight in printed typographical form. Yeah, the newsletter, News from the Front. We call it a semi weekly. It's really more of a semi newsletter, really. I don't really know when that's going to come out, but Rock Fight co sign up.
- [03:01]
B
And for anybody who read this week's edition of News from the Front and was disappointed they couldn't actually vote in the survey and missed the fact that it was obviously a joke. It was a joke.
- [03:10]
A
No, no, you can still vote.
- [03:11]
B
Well, that's true.
- [03:12]
C
They were frantically clicking their email buttons. Okay, one, I got two emails like.
- [03:19]
B
Hey, I tried to vote but something got screwed up. And I'm like, just read the bottom.
- [03:23]
A
It was a cleverly applied satire. I believe. Joke is just a little too blasey.
- [03:28]
B
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm diminishing your work there on that. My bad, my bad.
- [03:33]
A
Yeah, Neanderthal.
- [03:34]
B
Oh, and if our listeners would like to reach out to us, what should they do?
- [03:38]
C
Well, if they want to complete surveys that are uncompletable, they should definitely email us@myrockfightmail.com or just reach out to us on LinkedIn, search up Rock Fight or or on Instagram where we are Rock Fight Co. All one word and just send us a dm.
- [03:55]
B
All right, kicking us off today. Outdoor retailers are continuing to close with both Orvis and REI announcing closures this week. Let's start with REI. So per SGB, one week after releasing their Peak 28 strategic guidelines, REI announced this past week that they will be closing three of their stores in the Northeast, including their flagship SoHo location in New York City. The Co Op issued the following statement to address the closures. It reads, after thoughtful consideration, we have made the difficult decision to close our Paramus, NJ store in Q1 2026 in Boston, Mass. And SoHo, NY stores in late 2026. We are deeply grateful to our teams, our members and customers in the stores communities for their support over the years. As markets and customer needs evolve, we must adapt to position the co op for long term success. We will continue serving members and customers at these locations until closing and at our other stores across the New York and Boston regions. Both the SoHo and Boston locations were part of the 11 REI locations that have unionized. So, Owen, REI didn't waste any time after the Peak 28 announcement. Peak 28 announcement, excuse me. And making their first public moves. What are your thoughts? What were your thoughts when hearing about these closures?
- [05:03]
C
One of the questions you asked last week, Colin, was why now? In terms of coming out with P28, I think now we know one of the things was the fact that they were basically going to be forced to make this announcement because the landlord for soho needed to be, you know, basically needed to be able to market that space. And actually if you went to the space, it went to that. To the realtor for that landlord. On the day that this was announced, they already had the. The REI soho flagship available for rent to go and see.
- [05:37]
B
Oh, wow.
- [05:38]
C
Yeah. So, you know, I'm definitely not shocked that this was one of the quote, unquote, tough choices that they referenced in the Peak 28 announcement. In fact, I. In my original l. In post, I actually had store closures as one of the tough choices, and I took it out because what I didn't want to do is, was create angst for green vests if that wasn't what was going to happen. You know, that's kind of the last thing you want to have happen. But, yeah, not surprised at all. I'm also not surprised that actually it's stores in their highest rent areas. I mean, that SoHo store dollars per square foot is probably five to ten times higher than they pay in some of their other locations. So rent is really high. The other thing I think the most that's not really talked about much is what I call outdoor flight from urban areas. So you think about those customers that maybe used to live in the soho area who were outdoorsy. A lot of them during COVID actually said, well, hey, I can work remotely. So I'm gonna go to Colorado or Michigan, a very outdoorsy state like Michigan, and live by the lake and have a great time.
- [06:45]
D
And.
- [06:45]
C
And they didn't come back post Covid. So I think a number of those aspects, diminishing outdoorsy customer base, combined with increasing rent and increasing labor costs, especially in those urban markets, really undercut the financials of those stores.
- [07:00]
B
What do you think this means for the union? Because when you look at kind of some of the things that I think I've said on the show and people, if you're critical of maybe the union efforts, it's more because it's like, well, you're unionizing a retail store. I understand what you're Trying to protect here, but also if you don't like where you work, go get a job at another retail store kind of thing. When you then lose like these two. Like the soho shop has been a big, played a big role in the union efforts.
- [07:24]
C
I think it was the first, wasn't it?
- [07:26]
B
I think it was, yeah. Or one of the first, at least.
- [07:28]
C
Right.
- [07:29]
B
What do you think this means for the union going forward?
- [07:31]
C
Well, it's certainly not good news, right? I mean, you've only got 11 stores today out of 195, two of them are closing. So it undercuts the base that you have unionized to begin with. I think secondarily it potentially introduces this pall over the unionization efforts. Like, well, if we unionize, are they just going to close us? Which I'm not suggesting, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that that was why REI closed these stores. I know that that has been suggested, you know, out on Reddit and all of those other corners of the interwebs, but I actually don't think this was a, was, was a union busting move. I really do think this was very financially driven. Now, part of the financial aspect may have been the fact that, you know, that the union was driving wages up and doing other things that made the stores less financially viable, but I don't think that was the main effort here.
- [08:26]
B
So before these closures, REI had 195 locations and they're still open. So they still technically do have 195 locations until they close. We don't have the insider knowledge to truly predict how many more they'll close, but I doubt that this will be it. Any thoughts on how many more they may shutter?
- [08:41]
C
I think it's really going to be a lease by lease, case by case discussion as these leases come up for renewal. So, for example, it isn't just totally by chance that the Soho store is closing after 15 years of being open, because that's probably the initial 10 year term, plus they did a five year extension and now they're like, okay, the lease is up, we're moving out. Right. So I think as a lot of these stores come up for renewal, there's going to be those discussions. And I think especially some of these higher priced urban stores are the ones that are going to be more closely scrutinized or maybe are in tougher ways. And it's going to be a financial decision. It's going to be, they're going to look at the hurdle rates that they expect from these stores and if they're not driving those numbers, they may have to close. One thing I would say is that actually closing some stores gives REI more leverage with their landlords to basically say, hey listen, you know what, we're not afraid to close the store. If you're not willing to work with us on rent or paying some more tenant allowance ta to refurbish the store and build it out to our new level or what have you, we're going to walk. And so, you know, I think the, the reputation for REI is historically from a real estate perspective has been, you know, the kind of the nice guy. I think we may be seeing a touch of the no more Mr. Nice Guy here and taking more of a aggressive, maybe aggressive is the wrong word, but attitude towards, towards real estate. Something that I saw, for example, like at Dick's, for example. I mean they take no prisoners, right? They're going to push for the best possible deal from that landlord. And you know, it's not about, you know, singing Kumbaya. It's like, hey, we need that. We need to get the best possible rent and tenant allowance.
- [10:30]
A
I was gonna say how much of this actually in a sense has nothing to do with REI in that again, we're talking about just the new urban, like you said, kind of traffic patterns in there, the shopping patterns. The idea of abandoning say soho or Boston seems to me crazy from a brand perspective and just kind of being. You don't be relevant in people's lives by moving away or retreating. But could we see smaller footprints or pop ups or just a little more use of that to keep the in places that we know that they're viable. But maybe this, this big super sized model doesn't work.
- [11:07]
C
I think that's a great point, Dave. And that's actually what a number of other companies have done is where you know, the suburban model is 25,000 square feet. In the res case, maybe they have a 10,000 square foot sort of mini model that can be in those urban areas. I totally see that as a potential way to go. And the SoHo, you know, it's a, a beautiful store. You know, it's, it's like a, almost a city block. I mean this thing is, is amazing. Huge build out, etc, I'm sure very high rent. They could still have that position, you know, in, in a SoHo in Manhattan or what have you. No, you know, and what, what is the like Tribeca or whatever they could have, they could have a store there that's much smaller that still gives REI that presence in that market, but without the Huge overhead.
- [11:57]
B
I think the Boston one's the one. And maybe I'm a little biased because that's used to be my area. But, like, that was that shop I did clinics in for smartwool in the mid 2000s. Right. And that's a spot where you have. You're kind of halfway between the fells of the north, the blue hills to the south, and also Boston. The whole New England area just lost a shit ton of EMSs. So this really hurts. I mean, the Soho one as well, I think it's a little more in terms of, like, how it affects the enthusiasts in the area. But here's another New England, you know, outdoor store going away.
- [12:25]
A
I think they just. They didn't merchandise properly in the Boston store. You had all those green vests. Just slap some Celtics logos on them and dude, those things will move. Big mistake.
- [12:34]
C
Move.
- [12:34]
A
I bet you Dick's house of sport is moving Celtics jerseys. Like, come on.
- [12:38]
B
This is kind of what I'm saying about the industry. You guys are like, oh, we can get Alex Honnold. Like, no, can you get Tom Brady? That's like that you're in Boston. Like, who do you think's going to.
- [12:45]
A
Show up, you know, have Alex Honnold climb Tom Brady, Right? That would be free.
- [12:52]
B
Solo Tom Brady.
- [12:53]
A
Right? There you go, Dave.
- [12:55]
B
You know, how many Sierras do you think open in the wake of these vacated reis?
- [12:59]
A
I think it's a three to one ratio, Colin. I think we actually have proven that. That for every. When you push your thumb down on an rei, three Sierras pop up someplace else.
- [13:08]
B
It's like, you know, you'd say Candyman three times or whatever, he shows up. It's kind of right.
- [13:13]
A
It's more like Beetlejuice, but whatever.
- [13:15]
B
Just one of those. All right. Well, Also, according to SGB last week, Orvis will be shuttering 36 retail locations. Simon Perkins, the current president of the 169-year-old fishing brand, said in a statement, quote, like in McManian retail, Orvis's business model faced a sizable shift with the introduction of an unprecedented tariff landscape to ensure a durable brand and model for decades to come. We are focusing on our core strengths and making the difficult but necessary decision to rescale the business by tightening our assortment and reducing our corporate store footprint. So, Owen, is the through line here between REI and Orvis simply that they grew too much and that there are fewer. That fewer shops had a tighter product directive is simply more sustainable for the future?
- [13:55]
C
Not necessarily. One thing I would like to say is that blaming Orvis's current problems on the tariff landscape. I'm not buying that.
- [14:05]
B
Is that convenient maybe? Is that convenient the word you're looking for?
- [14:08]
C
It's an excuse, right? Because, I mean, believe me, I am not a fan of tariffs in any shape, manner or form. And I think it's awful policy. But Orvis's issues go back way before the tariffs were introduced in April. In fact, you know, they started their, their layoffs and they laid off like almost about 8% of their. Of their labor force in October, which for those that are following, was way before the tariffs.
- [14:36]
B
So last, Last October, a year ago.
- [14:38]
C
Yeah, a year ago, exactly. So, you know, so, so, so yes, tariffs aren't helping. I get that. But that's not really what's, what's happening here really. I think what happened with Orvis was they, they just got out way over their skis in terms of. They got way too far away from their core. Right. So Orvis, an amazing brand, been around for, as you said, for almost 170 years. And at its core, they are an angler's brand. Right. They create the, they have the equipment, they have the apparel, etc. And it really just got watered down to a whole bunch of lifestyle stuff. Right. And that's not even lifestyle like we talk about, like angler, angler, core. Now this is the latest.
- [15:24]
B
We talked about that before.
- [15:25]
C
That's the thing, apparently. Right. So you would think that's great for Orvis, but the reality was is they just started producing a whole bunch of lifestyle apparel that had zero to do with, with, with, you know, with fly fishing. I mean, you know, flannel shirts, khaki pants, I mean, you name it, had nothing to do with, with, with fly fishing.
- [15:45]
B
More like an Eddie Power outlet store kind of.
- [15:47]
C
Exactly. It could have been from anybody. Right, right. But, but just, just cost, you know, twice the price of, you know, the same generic product from somebody else. So that, that's really what hurt Orvis. And what this is about is them getting back to like, okay, oh crap, we gotta get back to our roots, get back to developing new product around our core. So they'll still have apparel, but it won't be generic lifestyle apparel. It'll be apparel that's actually related to fly fishing. So that's what's really driving Orvis, I think, to try to say the Orvis and the Rai thing are the same issue. I wouldn't necessarily say that. Yeah.
- [16:28]
B
Well, Dave, to that point, the big picture talk of the industry as of late, including a lot on this podcast has been the potential for a much more casual future as it seems that for Orvis, the future is probably a little bit more rooted than their core customer. Is there maybe some hope there for the core outdoor fanatics out there or is this more of a one off situation?
- [16:48]
A
I don't see this as an issue between core activity and lifestyle. I think Owen, you hit on it more. It's about generic lifestyle. It's about that they produced a bunch of stuff that has no differentiation, no specialness, no interesting. I personally think that flannels and fishing are act. That is a performance gear for fishing. So bring it.
- [17:11]
B
But casual can look like your brand.
- [17:13]
A
Well, and there's no look at their brand and their branding and their messaging. It's just, it hasn't changed in 170 years either. I mean you can probably get some kind of like brain tonic along with that and kind of a medicine show aspect with your fishing gear. But no, I mean, look, if you're going to one arm it, you're going to half try and you're going to produce stuff that looks like Eddie Bauer and you're going to produce imagery that like we have talked about is just sedate and the same thing over and over and completely forgettable. What do you think's going to happen? You're going to spend a bunch of money on inventory that doesn't move and that's Right. And so it's like you've got to at least try to contemporize the way you sell and your message, even if your brand is based on heritage.
- [17:58]
B
That's a really good point and a little bit of a nuance we probably don't address overtly in these conversations, at least here on this podcast. Right. Where when we talk casual that might, that may paint a different picture in someone else's head than me than what you're thinking. Like casual doesn't have to be, you know, boring or generic. Right. It can just be like it could be completely on brand for who you.
- [18:17]
A
Are and in this case and interesting and differentiated.
- [18:20]
B
Right?
- [18:20]
A
Yeah.
- [18:21]
B
And in this case it feels like Orvis. Yeah. You're just kind of like a lot, a lot of other things out there. There's nothing that's very orvisy about what you're doing. Right. So that's an opportunity for you 100%.
- [18:30]
C
And I would say that for, for the outdoor brands that are there, like, like, you know, Fjallraven sponsor the podcast, there's a brand that has, I think lots of you could say lifestyle product, but it's all inspired by their, their, their, their outdoor collection. It's using materials that they've used historically, whether it's the wa or other elements that make sense within that brand and the outdoor ecosystem.
- [18:59]
A
It's a design language.
- [19:00]
C
Exactly.
- [19:00]
A
When you look at a piece from or look at a collection from Fjallraven, you can tell where it came from. And so they can still be modern, they can still stretch and use new things, but you always come back to something that has a point of view. And I think that's where brands like Orvis, and they're not alone by far. In fact, they're probably in the majority that have no true design language.
- [19:20]
B
Guys, this doesn't mean we don't have to do the Fjallraven read later now because we just gotta knock that right out there.
- [19:24]
A
Now. I wanna do it, do it in an accurate.
- [19:28]
B
This part of the conversation not endorsed by film.
- [19:32]
C
This is a pure editorial.
- [19:34]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [19:36]
B
All right, we're moving out of brick and mortar retail and into online outdoor retail. Last week, Allgear Digital announced a new partnership with Backcountry. Allgear is the owner of outdoor media outlets such as Gear Junkie, exploresWeb and the Inertia. And according to a post By Adweek On LinkedIn, AllGear Digital CEO Eric Fung says that this move represents one of the first formal media retailer collaborations in the outdoor category, leveraging Allgear's content and advertising expertise while complementing Backcountry's retail strengths. Owen, a few weeks ago we talked here about Backcountry in the pod after they had acquired a few Oregon based cycling retailers, that things have been kind of quiet on the backcountry front sort of from the CS since the CSE acquisition last year. So what do you think this move means for the rebuilding online retailer?
- [20:23]
C
One of the things that I predicted early on with Backcountry was that they were going to go down a marketplace model. And simply because basically that's the model that CSE has used in a bunch of their other portfolio companies. What this may, you know, may be is them basically saying, hey, we looked at, we looked at Marketplace, the financials don't work, basically because it costs us as much to acquire a customer as we would get in commission. So maybe this whole marketplace model doesn't work, but we still really need a way to monetize our traffic beyond what our direct sales would be. Right. And so this is the way to do that, to basically Earn more money because it is, I can speak from experience here. It is tough to make money in an online environment when you're selling other people's brands at those kinds of margins because of all of those customer acquisition costs that are getting more and more expensive as you're competing against the brands. D2C against Amazon, yada yada. So I think that's what this is. It's about monetizing and I think we should maybe explain a little bit what they're talking about here with this whole media network. So recently in the last five years or so, retail media networks have been all the rage. Across E commerce sites, we that have sufficient traffic. So Amazon was really kind of the leader, but then Walmart, Target, Best Buy, etc. And it allows them to bring in all this ad revenue in addition to the, to the product revenue that they have for ads, whether that be banner ads or sponsored listings or all these other things. Right. So it's a great, great profit driver for the, for these companies. I think the challenge for, for backcountry is they're also pretty expensive to set up, to manage to figure all this stuff out. You know, billing payment, all that stuff is a big pain in the ass. So what working with all gear does is it lets them plug into all that without a whole bunch of cost and lets them plug into the advertiser network that Allgear has already created. So I mean you look at all those folks that are all over gear junkie, you know, Toyota ads, you know, come to Illinois, whatever, whatever, all these different ads that are on there, those ads now could potentially show up on backcountry. And you know, one of my big questions when I posted about this on LinkedIn is okay, is this going to be an open or a closed network? And what I mean by that is an open network means anybody, well, any approved advertiser could advertise on backcountry with an ad that links away from backcountry which you know, from backcountry's perspective has pluses and minuses. If some, you know, they've got this traffic and then they end up having someone leave they, that cost them potentially a sale. Or is it a closed network where basically people can only advertise on backcountry who are already brands on backcountry and then when they click on the link it links to their page on backcountry, you follow? So what we heard from an executive of backcountry is it's sort of a hybrid. Basically. If you're an existing brand on backcountry, you're already paying for those placements through their co op or their MDF fund type model and you're going to continue doing that and it's all going to be a closed model within backcountry because you know they want to use those co op funds for you to spend money for people to buy on backcountry. Makes sense. But then if you're a non. If you're not a backcountry brand or maybe not in the sort of those product categories, you're an auto manufacturer, let's say now you are part of this open model to where you know, you might. If you're scrolling down a search results page on backcountry or product page you may see an ad for whatever Subaru Outback.
- [24:10]
A
You know, Owen, this is supposed to be retail media is like going to be a hundred billion dollar market by next year. I mean this thing is so already around us and it's really just like an extension of your in store marketing programs. Right. It's just now taking place online or catalog placements. Right. Buying ads in your catalog, it's just kind of bigger. But I think open versus closed, I think the targeting data is just way too juicy to not indulge in. And so the closed model of being able to see where people are going, popping up an ad that helps stoke that along. I think that's gonna be the real play for backcountry here. And again using Allgear's infrastructure and kind of the already built set up the network to get them closer to that. I think that's gonna be the real play for backcountry and for brands to. I saw a study about Kroger doing this on their sites a while ago and they saw like with a snack item they saw like a 30% increase in sales and like a 5 to 1 Rojas improvement in a very short amount of time. So I think that just kind of leads you to where their thinking might be in terms of what the real purpose of this is, is to get you to that sale probably prompted by that brand. Even faster within the. Within the site experience.
- [25:35]
C
Sorry. It'll be interesting to see if they do start a sponsored listings program as part of this within the closed program to where if you search on women's fleece jackets, you know, is Patagonia going to spend on this network outside of what they're already spending through through their co op funds to boost, you know, their jacket up to the to the top? Row.
- [25:56]
A
Right, right.
- [25:57]
B
So could that backfire at all? I mean, just thinking from the consumer point of view, we're talking about like the way what people are shopping for in these, going to a bad country or whatever and the experience of the shopping for it and the options you have to buy all of the same stuff online and other places. I'm on the record on this podcast, the Gear Junkie. The All Gear model of how they roll out their ads is not a pleasant experience on their websites. I would happily give them that feedback if they want to come on the show and talk about it. Their websites are not an enjoyable.
- [26:29]
A
Colin. I just want to say anything though that we're bringing up a grocery store chain or whose model is like cnet and Best Buy. Like it doesn't give me a whole lot of hope for the consumer experience.
- [26:39]
B
So that's what I'm getting at. Right. Like while you guys were chatting, I just popped onto backcountry. I immediately got two pop ups. Do you want 20% off? I clicked no. Hey, do you want 15% off? I clicked no. You know the experience already and I don't know if this is already happening with All Gear. Not great. And you're talking about things where if I'm going to backcountry, things I'm going to go to backcountry to shop for. I know that I have lots of options to go find somewhere else that maybe I'm going to enjoy that experience a little bit more versus like a Kroger or a grocery store where it's like, this is a necessity. I'll just kind of, okay, I'll get my Advil and get it delivered or whatever it is that I'm doing on that website. So is that a. I feel like that should be a real consideration here, how this gets rolled out to the people you want to attract to your site. A lot of talk here about how it's going to work. But what about the people who you need to bring in and actually click purchase?
- [27:24]
C
Yeah, well, I think that's a great point, which is if these ads do click away from backcountry, I think it's important where you put them. So it's one thing, for example, like if you put an ad on your homepage, which I doubt that they would do, but that's like, oh, yikes, okay, you could lose somebody right at the beginning of the purchase process versus let's say on the thank you page, they've already bought from you and now you're going to get an ad okay, you bought the product. Hey, now let's try to sell you some gear, insurance or whatever. Right? So I think that will be a consideration. Also just the ads themselves and you know, are they, do they make the site look adsy or are they more in line?
- [28:09]
A
Are they intrusive or they're passive? Right, yeah.
- [28:11]
C
And then I think the big question for me is like, let's say if you go down the sponsored listings route is are you undermining the, the kind of the expert element of the brand's credibility with the consumer by basically saying, hey, listen, we're not just gonna, we're not gonna serve you what we think is the best product that fits this need that you search for. No, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna serve you these sponsored listings first. So, yeah, it could be tricky.
- [28:38]
B
I think we could just all agree that the romance of the outdoor retailer is alive and well in 2025 based on that conversation.
- [28:46]
C
Right. Well, hey, you gotta, gotta make a buck, Colin.
- [28:50]
B
All right, it's time for the lightning round, guys.
- [28:54]
D
Lightning round.
- [28:57]
B
And we're starting the lightning round with water bottles. As SGB reported this week that Helen of Troy, owner of brands like Osprey and Hydro Flask, incurred double digit losses in its fiscal second quarter, with most of that loss being attributed to Hydro Flask. Oh, and how much of this for Hydro Flask was poor strategy or how much of this is just the tired water bottle category?
- [29:18]
C
That is a great question. There's definitely, there's definitely been. Thank you. And cut.
- [29:28]
A
Oh my gosh.
- [29:29]
C
So there's definitely been poor strategy as we've talked about in this pod from Hydrofrask, you know, the prior CEO or whatever, talking in excited terms about the fact that they were going to be in Costco and in Target and all these other things. And then major backlash from your existing, your existing, especially retailers who got you here basically saying, oh, that's cool, we love that for you, but we're basically just not going to order your product anymore. And oh, by the way, one of the major reasons why they said that their sales were off so much in this last quarter was because they weren't getting replant orders from their, from their retailers. So none of this is shocking. I think the question becomes, though, is sort of which came first, chicken or the egg? In other words, was it the overall slowdown in the category or, you know, shifting tastes for going from Hydro Flask to the next hot thing, which at the time was Stanley, and that drove sales down and then they got A little bit desperate and went after Costco and Target. So I think it's, it's more that piece of it. But it all, you know, kind of rolls together into not a great place for hydro flask to be right now.
- [30:38]
A
News flash, okay. Like water bottles, they are a trend driven commodity accessory. If you are not playing to trends, if you are not making yourself contemporary and modern and new and interesting, you are going to fall off the shelf and become a price point item. And that's what they have done. And so all of those other self inflicted wounds just accelerate this. But you know, sometimes, I mean if you go to all of their, their channels and their site and you know, yes, a lot of people holding a hydro flask that holds liquid, we got that. We are so clear that's what you do. So maybe we spend more time creating things that are interesting or entertaining or take me along with a storytelling. But if I see just one more hand holding a flask that water goes into, I mean it's like, goodness gracious, this isn't hard. The fact that Stanley came around is not because their branding or story was so unique. It was just a new story. And then there will be a new story that comes around and they will make the same mistakes and they will think color is gonna save them for everything and it's not. You're a fashion brand. Good for you. You have great colors. That's exactly what I expect from you. But give me more, please.
- [31:52]
B
And that's been the rock fight lightning round. Okay.
- [31:57]
C
All right, next up, lightning.
- [31:58]
A
Lightning. Okay, sorry, lightning striking there.
- [32:01]
B
It's slow motion lightning.
- [32:03]
A
Yup.
- [32:03]
B
All right, next up, rising trail running brand Mount to Coast added a new model this week. The H1 introduces the Circle cell midsole which is designed to boost longevity by 90% while being made from 100% renewable feedstock. Dave, if you could put aside from the fact that you loathe a brand name that is also a phrase, what could true sustainability and running shoes mean for what is probably the dirtiest category the outdoor industry has?
- [32:27]
A
Colin, let's be clear. It's not just a phrase, okay?
- [32:29]
B
It's an elliptical side. Okay.
- [32:31]
A
It's an elliptical, prepositional or directional phrase, okay? And it's where the from is implied. We farm, defeat, seed a summit. They're all playing in this highly literal game. But it's not just the, the grammar that rubs me wrong. It's the fact that it's a bullet point to a marketing or product brief. So there, let's just be clear. So we're not. Was there a question in there? Yes, sustainability. Well, dude, haven't you heard? It's the future of innovation. I mean, it's like, yeah, this is again, an expected thing that we should, we should hold our brands to that. That is the next kind of, you know, frontier of how are we going to innovate. And clearly there's a lot to work on in footwear to get there. So the fact that they're this leading, leading brand that position themselves, that and it from. I haven't tried the shoes. Colin has tried the shoes, but I haven't yet.
- [33:23]
B
No, this is the one. This is one of my blind spots. I need to try.
- [33:25]
A
Oh, okay. But, you know, obviously very well reviewed people seem to dig them and they're bringing something to the fit story that others aren't. But no, I think, like I said, this is expectation. I mean, design wise, they. They look like on with maybe just more syllables and more letters, but it's essentially an on.
- [33:45]
B
They're definitely taking the arc' teryx path to success of like, we're just gonna circumvent everybody else and go right to the top.
- [33:51]
A
Right, right. Which is great, but, you know, sustainability, absolutely. That's. Like I said, we should be expecting that. That shouldn't be new, but good for them. And maybe it'll make some opportunities for some more elliptical directional phrases, you know, like plastic to protein or, you know, toxic to trail, I don't know. But there's something in there they can get to the next mold to boast, I don't know. But there you go.
- [34:14]
B
All right, last lightning round story. According to WWD.com women's outdoor apparel brand Half Days has closed a $10 million Series A funding round. Owen, what do you make of this?
- [34:24]
C
Quite frankly, I was blown away by this because I work with a lot of emerging outdoor brands and the fundraising market for outdoor consumer brands has never been harder from, from what I can see. So for them to go out and secure 10 million is beyond impressive. Just great. The other thing that it tells me is, I mean, I've obviously heard of Half Days. I didn't think it was huge though. But if they're raising $10 million, that means the valuation is likely in about the 40 million dollar range. Okay, so if their valuation is 40 million, that means, again, these are all guesses and round numbers. But they've got to be doing close to 20 million in sales today, which is not nothing. And they must have a line of sight to 100 million to make a $10 million investment make sense. So yeah, so apparently things are, things are taken off there. It's also important to know this is a by women for women brand, which you know is. So we need, we need more half days in our industry. So just kudos. This is, this is really great news.
- [35:33]
A
They're definitely of though of the upper crust though. I mean there's a lot of there, there are many by women for women brands that are also pretty dorky. Right. And they are not. I mean stylistically, they just, they make it look easy. The mountain ready performance fashion, like no, they're just. That is a well, you know, well scripted brand in terms of the way the product meets the brand. And so I think that's another reason for that success. It's just they've definitely created it.
- [36:03]
B
All right, let's take a quick break to hear from some sponsors and then we'll be back with more headlines. All right, this one is for all the gear makers out there. The biggest barrier for killer new products is sourcing the right fabrics. Working with mills is a pain and too often you get stuck with the whatever sort of fits. And what if we told you there was a partner who works with you to design, source and curate fabrics that enhance your product line? That partner is Ripstop by the Roll. Rip Stop by. You guys know Ripstop by the Roll. Dave, you've been on, you know you're a fabric.
- [36:32]
C
This is, this is, I'm, I'm, I'm reading along with you and I'm, I'm excited to know what the what. Ripstop by the Rock Rollers.
- [36:38]
B
These guys are cool. So they're your one stop shop for the perfect fabric solution to your next hit piece of gear. These guys handle the headaches and will work with you to develop or find the right solution. From yarn to finished fabric to fit your design, they have the application experts and production partners that make your job easy. From cottage companies on garage grown gear to eight figure brands at rei. They've been around. They know what they're doing. Ripstop by the Roll simply wants to help you build those the best products. If you're looking to source globally, done. You want to find something domestically, they got you. If you're ready to learn more, you head to ripstopbytherolle.com to connect today.
- [37:14]
C
And just so that we're clear, they have more than just Rip stop.
- [37:17]
A
Oh no, he for he forgot to mention that it's only Ripstop. That's all they have. That's right. That's it. That's right.
- [37:23]
B
It's one little square.
- [37:24]
C
All right.
- [37:25]
B
Doesn't rip, though.
- [37:26]
C
It doesn't rip, but then it stops.
- [37:29]
A
That's exactly rip stop fleece, Right? They have a rip stop membrane, right?
- [37:35]
C
No, you got it.
- [37:36]
A
That's interesting.
- [37:37]
C
Okay, cool.
- [37:39]
B
Hey, guys, winter's unpredictable, right? Mild one week, freezing the next. I grew up in the mid Atlantic. Every inch of snow was exciting until it melted into a soupy mess. And then make things worse, it would refreeze. You slip across it while you're walking across the driveway. Oh, and you know what I'm talking about. You live in Michigan. I don't need to tell you. And when that happens, going outside becomes its own adventure, including choosing what to wear. That's why people have trusted Fjallraven jackets for more than 50 years. Born and tested in Sweden, they're made to handle everything from everyday cold to true arctic extremes. The philosophy is simple, guys. Build outerwear that performs, protects, and lasts. From the keb Gore Tex jacket to the expedition pack down hoodie, you'll find something to suit the winter conditions you know, are on the way for your neck of the woods. And hey, retailers, if you want to see the best winter jackets you should be carrying in your shop, schedule an appointment with Fialraven at Goa Connect in Kansas City this November. The rest of you just head to fialraven.com and don't fall down on your icy driveway. That's, you know.
- [38:34]
A
Yeah.
- [38:35]
B
Yeah.
- [38:37]
A
All right.
- [38:37]
B
Lastly today, the Rock fight Today presented by Lems and Adventures calling. Are you ready to answer?
- [38:43]
D
No.
- [38:43]
A
No, Colin, they're just. They're going to ghost you.
- [38:45]
C
Don't.
- [38:46]
A
Don't let him call.
- [38:47]
B
All right, moving on. No. Coming early November, Lems is dropping a bold new lineup of minimalist boots and trail shoes built to go wherever the season takes you. You got to meet your new trail companions. Here you got the Trail Thrasher, the Trailblazer Mid. Each of them engineered with tough, full rubber outsoles for serious grip and design with an urban edge. They're made to move seamlessly from rugged backcountry tracks to city streets.
- [39:09]
C
Can I interrupt here for a second? Of course. In the current, current era of, you know, Gen Y terminology, should we really be calling something the Trailblazer Mid? I mean, it's just like.
- [39:24]
B
That's a great point.
- [39:25]
C
It's the Trailblazer.
- [39:26]
A
Meh.
- [39:27]
C
It's eh.
- [39:28]
B
Right. Mid should probably be eradicated from footwear terminology at this point.
- [39:32]
C
Exactly.
- [39:32]
A
Well, wouldn't that be the Trailblazer Meh. That's not the mid.
- [39:36]
C
Yeah, exactly, but.
- [39:38]
A
But it's not.
- [39:39]
C
It's an amazing shoe, but saddled with a meh name. I'm just saying.
- [39:44]
A
I hate to do this to you, but for someone who just cited Gen Y, maybe the mid Meh conversation should be a little bit over there.
- [39:52]
B
That doesn't make him wrong though, because my kids say mid all the time. That's mid. You're basically saying your shoe is crummy.
- [39:58]
A
You're right. So what are we going to call it? The Trailblazer? Not quite as high as the low.
- [40:06]
C
Yes, exactly. That. That is exactly right.
- [40:08]
A
Okay, okay, okay, I see that.
- [40:10]
B
Well, the Trail Thrasher and the Trailblazer. Not too high, bro. Are just two of the many styles hitting the LEM's lineup soon. Just the latest additions to the lineup of best fitting shoes you've ever worn. And hey, retailer again to you. If you want to go see the lem's team, you can see them at Goa's Discovery Marketplace at the Connect show in Kansas City this November. Hey everyone, before we keep going here, I need to tell you about our teammates at Darby Communications. Like I've been telling you, if you run an outdoor, an endurance or an active lifestyle brand, there is no better PR and digital marketing belay partner or drinking buddy than Darby. They can help your business reach new heights and they might just keep you from falling on your ass. Since we started working with Darby, more and more people, and this is an important point now. Guys, I want you to hear me on this. More and more people have reached out to us here at the Rock Fight because of that messaging. Look, guys, I'm dead serious. If they can help us, they can help anybody. Hit them up@darbycommunications.com do it today. All right, a couple more stories for today. A few weeks back, we talked about the state of Under Armour here on the Rock Fight. And this past week, another player in the outdoor and active world is being compared to UA's trajectory as analyst Randy Koenig is drawing comparisons to the factors that led to Under Armour's decline to Lululemon. In his analysis, Koenig said, quote, Under Armour's 1525 decline driven by share loss, fashion shifts and strategic missteps is very similar to Lulu's current issues as competition intensifies. Moreover, Lulu's sky high sales and margins relative to mall average and peers show substantial downside risk ahead. And then, as if that weren't enough for the Vancouver based brand, its founder Chip Wilson took Out a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal to publish a letter detailing what he believes is leading to a lesser than Lulu and calling for a quote, revitalized board of directors. I mean. Oh, and Dave, what do we make of all this?
- [42:03]
C
I mean, it's definitely having some struggles, there's no doubt about that. The stock is actually down over 50% this year. So it peaked earlier this year at 50 billion in value and it's down to about $22 billion today. Woof. Now Chip, you could understand why Chip's a little bit ticked off because he still owns 8.4%. So that drop has cost him a cool $2.3 billion.
- [42:31]
A
I have a question for you though. So obviously he has incentive to not be happy with what they're doing. And he certainly knows how to say shit that gets side eyed attention. That is kind of his power.
- [42:43]
C
He certainly does.
- [42:43]
A
Right. But how does this play in the boardroom? How does this really play?
- [42:48]
B
Well, they're gonna revitalize themselves, right. They're just gonna take hear what he says.
- [42:52]
A
Cause clearly he's voiced these, these opinions to them at some point. Right. So it's not new to them. So what is this, what does this do to the, to the board?
- [43:00]
C
Board and the executive team are just like kindly off. I mean really, it's like we have enough, we have enough shit that we're dealing with right now.
- [43:09]
B
Like we're not aware of the decline.
- [43:11]
C
And you're gonna, you're gonna come in for sniping from the sidelines. Let's face it, this whole thing, Chip has been pissed off since he, he was pushed out. Right. He didn't just leave, he was pushed out back in 2013 because he, I mean he just. Yeah. Some of the comments he made were.
- [43:29]
A
He made some things, he made statements to the press. Exactly.
- [43:32]
C
And then over well, and then he made those statements and then he doubled down on those statements. I mean it was really bad. But he's been pissed off ever since that. Right. And so I think actually he's just been waiting for his. Part of the problem he's had since then is Lulu has just been a rocket ship since he left.
- [43:50]
B
Since he left. Right. That's the thing about this.
- [43:53]
C
And so even, you know, even at 50% down from its high, it's still worth probably 10 times more than it was when he left in 2013. So he's just been waiting for his chance to basically say, you know, to take his shot. And of course in his letter he talks in his ad rather he talks about bringing back entrepreneurial ownership onto the board. Now, who, who could he be referring to there?
- [44:22]
B
You don't think he's talking about Chip Wilson, do you?
- [44:26]
C
You know, you might have something there, Khan. I think it is. I think Chip Wilson wants back on the board.
- [44:31]
A
So, so, so is this, is this an opening salvo in a larger proxy fight? Perhaps?
- [44:37]
C
Potentially. I mean, he does have 8.4%. That's, you know, not enough to, to force it himself. But if he could, if, if he could get a proxy fight going and get, get the shareholders to vote.
- [44:51]
D
Being.
- [44:51]
C
Put on the board, I mean, certainly other activists, investors have made moves in that regard with far less equity. So, sure, this could be the opening salvo, especially if he can get some of the other investors on his side to say, oh, no, no, we want to get Chip back on the board to right the ship here.
- [45:09]
B
I mean, it's just, okay, take the chip part of it out of it. I mean, the decline's real. They're struggling. It's a much more competitive space with all the attention going to Vuori and all these other brands who are kind of entering the space. Is it as simple as saying you got to, you know, kind of similar to what we talked about earlier with Orvis and some other brands we've talked about with, like, hey, got to tighten up the line, got to take a look at what you're doing, get back to the basics. I mean, isn't that sort of the playbook here?
- [45:32]
A
It doesn't mean that his criticisms were wrong. No doubt about it. I mean, the Disney thing is rough.
- [45:37]
C
The other thing I would say is what you're seeing in the decline of the stock price is more a bursting of a bubble where they were really had just really an outsized valuation relative to their size. So it was more of that than it was like that. They've gone majorly sideways because they still have great margins. The problem is they're not growing. It used to be quarter after quarter they were growing 20, 25%, and it was like, man, they were just a rocket ship and they've just hit a wall. And so now basically they're flat to maybe down 1 or 2%, kind of with the rest of retail, still good margins, et cetera. But. But yeah, I mean, they've hit the wall, and so the bubble burst. And now I think they've been overly penalized because of that. They're still a great company, still lots of customers, some questionable things. The Disney collab. I mean, come on, what are we Doing people.
- [46:40]
B
But when it's house money, you do shit like that, right? It's like, hey, we'll do that. Let's do that. That's not coming for HOKA eventually, right? Eventually we're going to be like, oh, Hoka. Finally it's going to happen. It happens to everybody.
- [46:51]
C
I mean, HOKA might even come out with, like, a loafer and something crazy like that. That would totally imagine that.
- [46:57]
B
Wait a second.
- [46:59]
C
But. But no. So the fundamentals of Lulu, I think, are pretty solid. But, yeah, they have to just get back onto the growth engine piece. And cutting to get to growth could be tricky, which may be what has to happen here a little bit. Cut off. Cut some of the herd with some of the bad retail that they've added, Cut some of the product that has maybe diverted them from their core ET but yeah, it's still a great company.
- [47:26]
B
It's going to be hard though, right? I mean, everybody's just kind of caught up. I mean, you start off, it's them and Athleta. They kind of leave Athleta in the dust and do their own thing. And they had basically a decade head start on anybody really being meaningful in this category. Even if everyone was trying to make athleisure and all that kind of stuff. And now there's other players, there's options. Right?
- [47:42]
C
So that's just kind of viori. I mean, yeah, they're coming for their lunch. Totally.
- [47:50]
D
It's time for a parting shot.
- [47:54]
B
Hey, guys, it's time for the parting shot. Who is brought to you today by Garage Grown Gear. Y' all know. Yeah, Lloyd Vogel. Just parting shots all day long.
- [48:03]
D
He will.
- [48:04]
C
He will. Just not. Yeah, I mean, come on. Lloyd, just the most angry man. Give it. Give it a day. To where I don't have to hear about Lloyd Vogel.
- [48:12]
A
You can't keep that overexposure going if you don't have parting shots.
- [48:16]
B
He's like, you know what? I want to be at the end of the podcast now to make sure the people who stick around really get some more Lloyd in their lives. That's what he was saying.
- [48:22]
C
Okay, so are these Lloyd's words or Lloyd is just sponsoring this? And these are still Colin's words.
- [48:29]
B
Garage. These are Collins words that Garage Grown is sponsoring. I wonder.
- [48:32]
A
The answer to that was yes.
- [48:35]
B
Is Lloyd and Garage ground? Are they interchangeable at this point? Are they the same? Can you separate the Garage Grown from the Lloyd.
- [48:42]
C
The cults of personality grown Lloyd.
- [48:44]
A
Maybe that's what it is. Maybe Garage Grown Lloyd is the way to go ggl.
- [48:49]
B
It's a clone shop. He's just growing other Lloyds in his garage.
- [48:52]
A
Yes.
- [48:53]
C
You know that. That is. Maybe that's why the skin is so smooth.
- [49:02]
D
Oh, my God.
- [49:02]
B
Well, that's trader Lloyd. He's trading other Lloyd.
- [49:04]
C
Yes, that's right.
- [49:06]
A
So that.
- [49:06]
C
That Lloyd that we saw at Goa Discovery last year wasn't actually original Lloyd. That was clone number three. Probably.
- [49:15]
B
That was Reno Lloyd.
- [49:16]
C
Reno Lloyd. Okay.
- [49:17]
B
Yeah, he does them. He has them all. Whenever there's an outdoor event, he has one stationed.
- [49:21]
C
Gotcha. Okay.
- [49:22]
B
By the way, I think the intro now for the parting shot's longer than my actual party shot today. It's pretty short.
- [49:26]
C
Yeah, that's okay.
- [49:28]
A
You know, I just want.
- [49:30]
B
This is a quick one. It's for people who are bummed about maybe the changing retail landscape in the outdoor industry. I thought of this when I saw a headline this week. I thought I would share it because last week hockey retail powerhouse Pure hockey Hockey announced they are acquiring Bar Down Hockey in Overland Park, Kansas. Now, for those listening who maybe don't know the hockey world, pretty similar to the outdoor world, where it's many people grow up discovering the sport through their local rink, but also their local hockey shop. And there are, you know, these are mom and pop stores with small locations who carry all the stuff you need and who partner with the community to build programs to support local participants. So kind of sounds familiar if you're familiar with the outdoor retail world, the gear shop world, anyway. And while there are still independent shops that exist, especially in specific markets, probably like in Lloyd's, Minnesota, for example, Pure Hockey, though, has been gobbling up some of these local dealers and changing the landscape of hockey retail. So I'm not saying that's good or bad. I suppose I'm just saying that the retail landscape is evolving in general, and it's not just the outdoor industry where these changes are happening. And just lastly, I want to say I never set foot inside a bar down, but I have spent plenty of time inside of. Inside of several pure hockeys. And for that, I feel comfortable saying to the hockey players of Overland Park, Kansas, I am sorry for your loss, because it's not. I'm sure it's not quite as good experience as your local bar down was. So that's my parting shot. I guess it was shot fires at pure hockey.
- [50:49]
A
Yeah.
- [50:50]
C
Really?
- [50:51]
B
Do you think it's. Are there other categories that come to mind where maybe there is that kind of shift happening? You know, that kind of similar to the mom and pop Stores.
- [51:00]
A
Well, it's all mom and pop. You know, like you just described a hockey shop as an outdoor shop. Was the soccer shop growing up? Was the tennis shop growing up?
- [51:08]
C
They all had the run specialty shop.
- [51:10]
A
Yeah, they all. And they all had people's names to them. Cybil. I had Cybil's racket shop or Tercy's soccer supply. Like it was kind of always that combo. And yeah, they're now taken over by the regionals. You know, in my world, my Sibyl's racket shop got taken over. Now it's players and there are multiple players locations, you know, things. Things like that.
- [51:29]
C
Team sports. So it's just then a major roll up on team sports. I forget what the. The company is that's buying all of them up.
- [51:36]
A
But yeah, all the team.
- [51:37]
C
Yeah, same. Same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [51:41]
B
It makes me think of, you know, the, the. You mentioned runo and like the. There's definitely opinions about people who've had local run shops and then if it gets taken over specifically by like Fleet Feet.
- [51:50]
C
Right.
- [51:50]
B
There's a. There's a lot. I'm sure we're gonna hear a lot about that at the running event this year, by the way. We're going to the running event. Everyone listening. So more of that to come. So yeah, we'll be there.
- [51:57]
A
But this will get cut.
- [51:58]
B
So they won't hear this probably will get.
- [52:00]
C
But I mean, you know, there are pluses and minuses here. One of the things that these, you know, roll up companies do is they are offering an exit for, you know, for these independent specialty retailers that have been in the industry for 30 years. Their kids don't want to take over the store and it's a way for them to have a retirement. So, you know, there's, there's pluses and minuses here.
- [52:23]
B
For sure.
- [52:24]
A
For sure.
- [52:24]
B
So. All right, guys, that's the show for today. We want your email. Send them to myrockflightmail Dot. Welcome. The Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight LLC and today's episode produced by producer Dave with art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. For Owen Comerford. I'm Colin True. Thank you for listening and here to take us out like he always does, as Krista makes with the Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
- [52:48]
D
Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human powered outdoor activities and pig bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews Ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is this is where we speak our truth. Rock flight Rock flight, Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight, Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock flight, Rock fight. Rock flight, Rock flight, Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight Rock fight, Rock fight.