The Rock Fight: Outdoor Industry & Adventure Sports Commentary

Episode: So What Is An Emerging Brand Anyway?
Date: October 10, 2025
Host: Colin True
Guests: Emily Holland (Founded Outdoors), Lloyd Vogel (Garage Grown Gear)

Overview

This episode dives deep into the meaning and reality of "emerging brands" in the outdoor industry. Host Colin True brings together seasoned voices Emily Holland and Lloyd Vogel—both immersed in the world of small, upstart brands—to challenge the broad, ill-defined term "emerging" and to unpack what it really means for brands vying to become the next outdoor staple. The conversation is candid, humorous, and laced with the Rock Fight signature irreverence, offering practical insights for founders, industry insiders, and outdoor enthusiasts alike.

Key Discussion Points

The Fuzziness of “Emerging Brand”

• What does “emerging” mean, anyway?
  Lloyd and Emily agree the definition is highly subjective; it depends on perspective, context, and revenue size.
  • Lloyd: "If you only have familiarity with the big companies, you could look at companies with $100 million in revenue and say, oh yeah, the small players. ... Our small makers might do less than $250,000 in revenue.” [09:21]
  • Emily: “For Founded Outdoors, the way that we think about the community is not really about if they’re calling themselves emerging or small … It’s more about being actively engaged with your business and targeting the outdoor consumer.” [12:20]
• The group discusses the limitations and implications of various labels: “startup,” “cottage,” “small,” and “emerging.” Labels are often blurry, and founders tend to self-identify.

Founded Outdoors & Community Support

• Peer support as the core:
  Founded Outdoors offers a free, active community for small outdoor business founders, with Slack channels, webinars (including collaborations with Lloyd’s Garage Grown Gear), and a resource guide.
  • Emily: “It’s amazing how much people give and take ... It’s one of the best Slack channels out there.” [15:30]
  • Lloyd: “If you are not part of Founded Outdoors, I’m not sure exactly what you’re doing.” [17:05]
• Consulting & Partnerships:
  Founded Outdoors also works with states, counties, and organizations to support entrepreneurs and run accelerator programs (e.g., with REI). [18:13]
• Gatekeeping & Diversity:
  The organization is conscious about reducing traditional gatekeeping, aiming to broaden resources beyond the standard (historically white, male) founder demographic.
  • All three: “Guess who they are. White men. We all guessed at the same time.” [21:32]
  • Emily: “We do a lot to make sure ... people see different versions of the journey that they could take as well.” [21:39]

Challenges, Success, and the Nature of Outdoor Startups

• “Success” is not one-size-fits-all:
  Many small brands fade quietly due to life changes, resource burdens, or evolving definitions of success, not necessarily because of product failure.
  • Lloyd: “Most small brands just kind of slide into nonexistence ... It’s just up to kinda what their expectations are.” [22:05]
• The outdoor industry’s “founder energy” is unique: It's more personal and passion-driven than in household goods or other industries.
  • Emily: “Maybe I just don’t care if a dishwasher is improved … I do care if my pants now have a zipper that I can just squat and pee in. That’s sick.” [24:35]
• Unlike appliances, outdoor product innovation is more accessible and community-driven: “You can go to a show like Pacific Crest Trail Days and talk to some of the foremost designers in the world. … The accordion of the community is way smaller, and that is fairly unique to the outdoor industry.” [27:20]

Inclusivity vs. Insularity in Outdoor Business

• The hosts note the value—and risks—of the close-knit, insular outdoor industry mindset, cautioning that it can limit learning from outside fields (e.g., retail experts from large companies or unrelated markets). [28:48]
  • Colin: “At some point, it becomes important to listen to other voices as well.” [30:16]
  • Emily: “We prioritize keeping it outdoor ... However, a lot of the resources shared are not outdoor-specific ... There are transferable lessons from Apple, food, or CPG brands.” [30:35]

Why Buy from Small Brands?

• Advantages of small brands:
  • Faster innovation: “They can innovate way faster than big brands because … small brands have no rules.” [32:38]
  • Closer to the community’s needs.
  • Often more open to feedback and support local economies.
• Cost myth-busting:
  Supporting small brands isn’t always pricier—sometimes, it's even less due to direct-to-consumer models.
  • Lloyd: “It’s not always just like ... I’m tired of the narrative of, oh, it’s so expensive to support small brands. Not really.” [33:03]

All About the Product

• Brand vs. Product:
  An impassioned mini-rant from Lloyd on the pitfall of relying solely on “support small” narratives:
  • Lloyd: “If your product sucks and your brand story is great, you still have a probably non-viable brand. ... You have to differentiate and add value in other ways.” [34:26]
  • Colin: “It’s always about making a difference in the consumer. Why is my life better because of what you’re doing?” [37:31]
• The same discourse applies to “sustainable” products: sustainability is valued after quality/usefulness is established. [37:43]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Defining Emerging Brands:

  • “If you are someone who only has familiarity with the big companies in this space, you could look at companies with $100 million of revenue and be like, oh yeah, the small players.”
    — Lloyd Vogel, 09:21

• On Labels:

  • “Emerging I think implies some form of goal that you are emerging towards ... When have you actualized?”
    — Lloyd Vogel, 10:48

• On Community Support:

  • “If you are not part of Founded Outdoors, I’m not sure exactly what you’re doing.”
    — Lloyd Vogel, 17:05

• On Access to Resources:

  • “Let’s guess who they are. White men. We all guessed at the same time.”
    — All Three, 21:32

• On Product vs. Brand:

  • “It’s not enough of a value proposition just to be small. You have to be able to differentiate and add value in other ways.”
    — Lloyd Vogel, 34:48

• On Passionate Innovation:

  • “I don’t care if a dishwasher is improved. I do care, however, if my pants now have a zipper that I can just squat and pee... that’s sick.”
    — Emily Holland, 24:35

• On Industry Insularity:

  • “When people come from outside of the industry and try to monetize it, people’s hackles go up immediately... Here in the outdoor industry, they probably don’t even wear flannels or hats. They probably wear suits and ties and smell good.”
    — Lloyd Vogel, 27:20

Segments & Timestamps

• [00:49] - Show open & intro to discussion about “emerging brands”
• [07:12] - Welcome Emily Holland and Lloyd Vogel
• [09:21] - The arbitrary nature of “emerging brands”; definitions and perspectives
• [12:20] - How Founded Outdoors defines and supports small/outdoor-focused brands
• [15:30] - Peer-to-peer community support and benefits of joining
• [18:13] - Consulting and partnership side of Founded Outdoors (accelerators, regional programs)
• [21:14] - Addressing gatekeeping and inclusivity in founder support
• [22:05] - Challenges small brands face; the blurred definition of “success”
• [24:35] - The unique culture of innovation in outdoor startups
• [27:20] - Insider/outsider perspectives within the outdoor industry
• [30:35] - Transferable business lessons and cross-industry learning
• [32:38] - Why buy from small brands: speed, community, and cost
• [34:26] - The importance of product quality over “small brand” status
• [38:08] - Upcoming events, news, and partnership highlights from both guests

Resources & Links Mentioned

• Founded Outdoors: Peer-to-peer community and consulting for small outdoor brands (website), including a new small business benchmarking survey.
• Garage Grown Gear: Online retailer focused on upstart and “emerging” outdoor brands (website)
• Slack community & Ascent Series webinars (monthly, co-hosted by Lloyd and Emily).

Final Thoughts

The episode ends on the core truth: for "emerging brands" (however you define them), product utility and innovation must come first. Personal founder stories and community connection are valued, but cannot replace genuine product differentiation and usefulness. The show's blend of humor, lived experience, and candid advice makes this a must-listen for anyone invested in the future of small brands, innovation, and diversity in the outdoor world.

Memorable Moment:
“I don’t care if a dishwasher is improved. I do care, however, if my pants now have a zipper that I can just squat and pee... that’s sick.”
— Emily Holland, 24:35

To Connect or Learn More:

• Join the Founded Outdoors community (if you’re a founder) for free resources and events.
• Check out Garage Grown Gear for innovative, small-batch outdoor gear.
• Explore the new benchmarking survey via Founded Outdoors for market data.