The Bottle Bubble & the Brick-and-Mortar Pivot

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rock Fight – "The Bottle Bubble & the Brick-and-Mortar Pivot"

Podcast: The Rock Fight: Outdoor Industry & Adventure Sports Commentary
Episode: The Bottle Bubble & the Brick-and-Mortar Pivot
Date: January 12, 2026
Host: Colin True
Guests: Owen Comerford, Producer Dave

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into honest, unfiltered discussions about current developments and challenges in the outdoor industry, focusing on three primary areas:

• The saturation and evolution of the insulated bottle market (“bottle bubble”)
• The surge in brands opening direct-to-consumer (DTC) brick-and-mortar stores
• Recent industry survey results reflecting listener opinions on trends and predictions

The hosts, with a signature candid and campfire-style approach, debate whether the outdoor retail market is at a turning point, analyze recent business pivots, and react to listener feedback.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Survey Results: Outdoor Industry Predictions

[03:19–10:45]

• Survey Setup:

  • The team shared results from their community's responses to Owen’s 10 predictions for the outdoor industry in 2026.

• Highlights:

  • Outdoor Brands Slow Start: Unanimous agreement from all listeners.
  • Tariff Rollbacks: Slightly more than half see it happening, but many caution it will take years to impact brands.
    • “Even if tariffs get rolled back, it will be months, if not years before brands and retailers see the money.” (Listener comment, [05:41])
  • Gear-as-a-Service Subscription: Most disagree it will take off—people don’t want more monthly fees unless the value proposition improves.
  • PFAS-Free Markets: Skepticism about whether “grain market” rainwear will emerge.
    • “If so it will be tiny. I don’t think very many of us really know what we're talking about.” ([06:44])
  • Foot Locker Closures: 100% agreement, with one listener humorously questioning why the brand still exists.
  • REI Dividend Changes: Split views, some think REI already transitioned from a proper dividend to just a loyalty program.
  • Hoka’s Growth Plateaus: 75% agreement.
    • Best comment: “Even Rome fell.” (Listener, [09:06])
  • Featured Used Gear: Split, most doubt it becomes mainstream in core e-commerce.
  • Peak Trail Running: Nearly half think the culture is still growing, with Nike’s entry predicted to make waves.
  • AI as a Gear Buddy: Majority see it coming, but with resistance:
    • “They will. It will be awful and I will hate it. I will hate it even if it’s not awful.” ([09:56])
  • Store Closures: Listeners are already seeing specialty outdoor shops announcing closures for this year.

• Tone: Reflective, skeptical, humorous.

2. Fleet Feet’s Growth & Impact on Outdoor Retail

[10:45–19:46]

• Fleet Feet’s Expansion: Over 300 stores between Fleet Feet and its subsidiary, Marathon.
  • Hosts debated whether Fleet Feet is now the key player in outdoor specialty retail.
  • Owen: Fleet Feet is important for run specialty but still smaller and less “consequential” than REI or Dick’s when measuring revenue and product assortment.
    • “At under 300 doors, they're likely well under a billion in sales. That pales in comparison to an REI at close to $4 billion.” (Owen, [13:10])
• Assortment & Influence: Fleet Feet’s focus remains running (primarily road). Hosts note possibilities for expansion into trail and lifestyle, but unlikely into gear-heavy outdoor categories.
• Brand Perception: Some run specialty dealers may not welcome Fleet Feet’s proliferation.
  • Dave: Humorously suggests possible names for a group of Fleet Feet buyers (e.g., “a fraggle”, “a heel”, “a pace”)
• Takeaway: While Fleet Feet’s scale is notable and growing, its influence on the wider outdoor market is still specialized. Brand-partnering opportunities exist for crossover trail products.

3. The Oversaturated Insulated Bottle Market (“Bottle Bubble”)

[19:46–27:21]

• Recent Decline: Helena Troy’s Q3 sales dropped 6.7%, mainly due to declining Hydro Flask sales; the overall bottle segment is overserved, with major displays at non-specialty retailers.
• Panel’s Consensus: The hydration/bottle market isn’t dying but has matured. Retailers should be selective, focusing on utility/performance (e.g., Hydrapak, Nalgene) plus a single high-margin lifestyle brand.
  • “Hydration is a lifestyle thing. It isn’t really an activity thing anymore.” (Owen, [20:58])
  • Dave: Warns against equating “category end” with maturity—fashion and trend cycles will continue to drive periodic refreshes.
  • On Yeti: Their coolers are outsized in reputation, but drinkware is their real volume driver.
  • Recent moves (e.g., Yeti’s pullback from specialty stores) may backfire when the market plateaus.
    • “I think they’re confusing prima donna for premium.” (Dave, [23:34])

4. Lightning Round – Quick Takes on Industry News

[27:21–35:00]

• Ski Patrol Strikes: Ongoing labor disputes at Telluride highlight deep-rooted wage and affordability issues in snow sports.
  • “As long as there are rich people, there will be a snow sports industry.” (Owen, [28:17])
• Everest Garbage Deposit: Nepal’s $4,000 trash deposit for climbers isn't enough incentive; likely just an extra line-item for clients.
• Bike and Outdoor Divide: Despite customer overlap, the bike industry fiercely protects independent dealers, making it tough for outdoor retailers (e.g., Moosejaw) to add bike brands.
  • “There’s an amount of service that’s needed to have a successful experience with the bike.” (Owen, [33:59])

5. Brick-and-Mortar DTC Pivot

[35:00–51:15]

• DTC Store Openings: Brands such as Hoka, Salomon, Saucony, and La Sportiva expanding with their own shops.
• Geographic Differences:
  • In China, DTC is standard, partly because of undeveloped third-party retail infrastructure.
  • In the US, DTC doors are mainly concentrated in select metros (NYC, Boulder, SLC).
• Omnichannel Reality:
  • Wholesale and DTC can (and should) drive one another—successful strategies now integrate e-commerce, branded retail, and third-party partners.
  • Owen: DTC needs to support, not undercut, wholesale partners; brick-and-mortar builds brand presence but overexpansion is risky.
    • “The retail graveyard is strewn with brands that went too fast on retail expansion before really understanding their model …” (Owen, [47:33])
• Brand Stores Can Benefit Wholesale: When properly executed (e.g., Arc'teryx), a branded store in a market can boost overall brand velocity and even help specialty retailers.
  • “It raises all ships.” (Owen, [44:53])
• Advice to Brands:
  • Expand stores slowly, focusing on flagship experiences.
  • Don’t view DTC vs. wholesale as a zero-sum game.

6. Parting Shot: Micro Stewardship

[51:39–56:00]

• Personal Story: Colin is inspired by a local runner cleaning his neighborhood trail, motivating him to commit to monthly trash pickups.
  • “This woman is a saint … This is now my New Year’s resolution: once a month, I’m planning on going up there with the trash …" (Colin, [53:04])
• Funny Side Discussion: Humor about dog poop bags left on trails and the eternal debate over the “wayback bag” (pickup on the way back).
  • “It's like you're better off to leave the dog shit there than to put it in a bag and then leave it on the side of the trail.” (Owen, [54:42])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On AI and Outdoor Gear:
  “It will be awful and I will hate it. I'll hate it even if it's not awful.” – Listener, survey comment ([09:56])
• On Category Maturation:
  “I wouldn't conflate end of a category with the maturation of a category.” – Dave ([22:40])
• On Branded Retail:
  “The retail graveyard is strewn with brands that went too fast on retail expansion before really understanding their model… So, I would take my time.” – Owen ([47:33])
• On Trail Trash Duty:
  “Thank you for doing the thing I always say I’m going to do and have not done yet.” – Colin ([53:04])
• On Dog Bags:
  “They're way back bags. … Sometimes I think people probably genuinely forget them.” – Dave & Colin ([55:28])

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Timestamps & Segments

• Survey Results & Listener Comments: [03:19–10:45]
• Fleet Feet & Retailer Impact: [10:45–19:46]
• Insulated Bottle Bubble: [19:46–27:21]
• Lightning Round (Ski Strikes, Everest Trash, Bike-Outdoor Industry Divide): [27:21–35:00]
• DTC Stores & Brick-and-Mortar Strategies: [35:00–51:15]
• Parting Shot (Trail Cleanup, Dog Bags): [51:39–56:24]

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Takeaways for Outdoor Industry Insiders

• The bottle category is mature—retailers should consolidate stock and focus on a few select brands with high equity or performance.
• DTC brick-and-mortar is resurging, but success depends on careful, data-driven expansion and maintaining symbiotic relationships with wholesale partners.
• Brand stores, if executed strategically, can boost overall awareness and even help specialty retailers, as long as local market saturation is avoided.
• The community values candid, campfire-style truth-telling—the podcast doubles down on giving voice to industry skepticism and grassroots stewardship.

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For more candid takes and to join the conversation, check out The Rock Fight's newsletter and upcoming listener surveys.

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Transcript

[Colin True]

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[Intro/Outro Voice]

Rock flight. Rock Flight. Rock Flight. Rock Flight. Rock Flight. Rock Flight.

[Colin True]

Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True, and joining me today, they vowed not to podcast at Telluride Mountain Resort until those ski patrollers are paid a fair wage. It's Owen Comerford and producer Dave. Yes, Podcast patrollers. That's what we're gonna call you guys and sisters. Well, today we will be talking about that briefly in the lightning round, but we're also gonna talk about some other recent headlines that come out of the outdoor industry. But first, hey, everyone, our inbox is open. We want to hear from you. Myrockfightmail.com is where you can reach out. And beyond that, do you have a comment for the consigliere Owen Comerford? Email us. Or you can find the outdoor industry expert owen Comerford on LinkedIn where you post multiple times a week, right, Owen? A couple times a week. Pretty much.

[Owen Comerford]

I go in fits and spurts, I must admit. You know, it's one of those things where it takes time. I mean, like, I don't just put some, some, you know, half baked bullshit out there. I actually do some research. No AI Slop here.

[Colin True]

No AI Slop. No. Like, I think trail running is having a moment, guys. Really?

[Owen Comerford]

Wow, cool. Yes.

[Colin True]

Last.

[Dave]

Great question, Colin.

[Colin True]

Lastly, don't miss the next episode of Gear Abbey, where Shante Salibair, who also appears here often on the Rock Fight, answers all of your burning outdoor questions. You can find Gear Abby on your favorite podcast app. And first this week, guys. First thing we're gonna do this week, guys, is as our survey results. Last week we went through Owen's 10 predictions for the outdoor industry in 2026 and subscribers to News from the Front, Rock Fight's official newsletter. A survey asking if you agree or disagree with Owen's predictions. And man, did you guys, you listeners, did you respond? We got a huge response from what we're going to share with you in a second. But I think we're going to run it back though. I think we're going to send out another one next week. Another survey, another question next week. I think this might become a regular thing because that was a, was good response. What do you think? Should we, should we run it back? Should we ask something else next week?

[Dave]

Just a survey about surveys. Are you inclined to take a survey? Yes or no?

[Colin True]

That's pretty. Or we can just go back to The f. Marry kill too. That one did pretty well.

[Dave]

We can. That was. That did go away. But yeah, I think a survey about surveys.

[Owen Comerford]

I like a good survey.

[Colin True]

So if you missed out on this week's survey and you don't want to miss out next week, head to Rockfight Co. Click join the mailing list. Click join the mailing list. All right, so here's the results, guys. So I'm just going to run through them real quick. So number one, Iowan's production predictions. Outdoor brands get off to a slow start in 2026. 100% of listeners agreed with you.

[Owen Comerford]

Jesus.

[Intro/Outro Voice]

Oh, boy.

[Owen Comerford]

Listen to that. I was hoping people would go, no, no, no. And you're just talking to all of the people that are having a hard time. The rest of us, it's great. So. Oh, good. Okay, cool.

[Dave]

The.

[Colin True]

The we're tribe is. Is.

[Owen Comerford]

Is.

[Colin True]

Is in full effect.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Owen Comerford]

Wow.

[Colin True]

Number two, tariff. See a rollback. 62% agreed. 37% agreed. I disagree.

[Dave]

Does that count as optimistic?

[Colin True]

Not as optimistic. Some people were like they wrote in some comments, you know, there might. Might happen. But it's. There could be some caveats. We'll see.

[Dave]

What's the. What's one comment that stands out amongst the tariff discussion even.

[Colin True]

Here's the. I think the best comment, which is probably accurate. Even if tariffs get rolled back, it will be months, if not years before brands and retailers see the money, which is probably accurate.

[Dave]

Yeah, yeah. That was.

[Colin True]

This will linger even if it gets better. Number three, gear as a service subscription model is launched. Only 37% agreed. 55.2% disagreed. We had a couple of comments. Already exists in a limited way. No one wants another monthly fee unless they're getting something much more. They probably will. But this has never worked, despite people saying they like the idea.

[Dave]

What if we call it a streaming service? Would that be.

[Colin True]

Would that or are we never streaming? We Peacock.

[Owen Comerford]

That's right. Yeah. Okay. It's a gear streaming service. I love that.

[Dave]

Okay. Yeah.

[Colin True]

PFAS, rainware grain market emerges was the number four prediction. 31% agree. 51.7% disagree.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, but this is industry wonks I'm talking about. I'm talking to the real people out there.

[Colin True]

Yeah, I kind of agree with that, I think. But the one comment that I liked was, if so it will be tiny. I don't think very many of us really know what we're talking about.

[Owen Comerford]

That's fair. That is totally fair, present company included.

[Colin True]

Oh, 100%. We have never professed to be anything other than Just curious.

[Owen Comerford]

That's right.

[Colin True]

Number five, Dick's Sporting Goods announces the closure of over 10% of Foot Locker locations. This is another one. 100% agree.

[Owen Comerford]

Oh, okay.

[Colin True]

Okay. Now there was one comment that I want to address. Someone wrote, foot Locker still exists. Why? And I want to address it because I don't know who wrote that or. Or what their role is in the industry. That's a little concerning. We're talking about.

[Owen Comerford]

We're just being facetious. Okay, all right, I get. I get their point though. I mean, it's, you know that it has been on a bit of a meander the last decade.

[Colin True]

A thousand store meander. Yep.

[Dave]

They don't carry European approach shoes, so how can they be serious as a footwear distributor?

[Colin True]

What makes a shoe European, Dave?

[Dave]

It would be bright colors, a narrow last and disdained of Americans.

[Owen Comerford]

A crazy sizing system with like 40.

[Dave]

That's right. That's right.

[Owen Comerford]

That's crap.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Colin True]

All right, number six, REI makes major changes to its membership dividend. This was pretty split, relatively speaking. 55% agree, 44% disagreement. Someone wrote in.

[Intro/Outro Voice]

Ha.

[Colin True]

I thought they already did that. Then another one I liked was REI does not have a dividend. They have a loyalty program. They should go back to a dividend based on profit, which they probably will not.

[Owen Comerford]

Well, they would have to be profitable before that. So that might. Might be a minute. But that's a very good point. I mean, I've said this for a long time. This whole dividend thing, it's only a loyalty program, which was proved by the fact that when they couldn't pay a dividend because they were losing money, they still gave the 10% back, so to speak. So it's a loyalty program.

[Colin True]

It also goes with the fact that we knew that there would be immediate backlash to anything that happens to this, no matter what it is, right?

[Dave]

Yes, that's right.

[Colin True]

Number seven, Hoka's growth flattens out. 75% agree. So the best. This had the best comment of the survey. Someone wrote in, even Rome fell.

[Owen Comerford]

Ouch.

[Colin True]

Okay, number eight, use gear makes it onto the main product page, split in the other direction. 41% agree. 55% disagree.

[Owen Comerford]

I think this is a bit of a long shot. They can all be layups here.

[Colin True]

And then number nine, we reach peak trail running culture. Again, another kind of split. 55% agree, 44% disagree. Okay, I like the one comment. Four letters. N, I K, E. The Swoosh is just getting into the game and bringing their check book. They may be delaying the inevitable. However, they will command attention for the category. And when the tide rises, so do all the boats in the harbor.

[Dave]

Okay.

[Colin True]

I think Dave wrote that in as someone who bought acg, and I did.

[Dave]

Not certainly see the logic in that, for sure.

[Colin True]

And last one, AI becomes your outdoor gear buddy. 58% agree. 34% disagree. The best comment. This was my second favorite comment of the survey. Someone wrote they will. It will be awful and I will hate it. I will hate it even if it's not awful, which I think sums up how people feel.

[Owen Comerford]

That's right. In general. Exactly. Yes.

[Dave]

And it has a theme song.

[Colin True]

So we had a bunch of responses that are written in. Maybe I'll include some more of those in the newsletter for next week. But the one that I thought warranted mentioning someone wrote in, we'll see more in terms of listener predictions, we'll see more specialty outdoor stores close. I've already had one email in my inbox for the new year announcing a closure coming in March. They didn't say who that was, but, you know, that's interesting. We'll see if that. If that verifies or not.

[Owen Comerford]

I hope they're wrong, but I. They could very well be right.

[Colin True]

All right, so for our first topic today, I have a quick quiz for you guys.

[Dave]

Okay.

[Colin True]

If I set the over under at 225 for the amount of doors that Fleet Feet, the running retailer that how many? 225. There's the over under. Would you take the over or the under per Fleet Feet and the amount of doors they have?

[Owen Comerford]

I kind of knew the answer to this question, so I was over.

[Dave]

You were over. Oh, yeah. I was gonna say. I was gonna. Based on the number of Fleet Feet badges you see roaming around tre. Like, I would have to say that is way over it just for that many badges of buyers ronin around. I think that it really alludes to a massive footprint. But I do have a question for you, Gu.

[Colin True]

Would you want me to tell you the answer?

[Owen Comerford]

Yes.

[Colin True]

So it's more. You're a question. Yeah, no, it's okay. But it is the over. They have more than 300 doors. They have 284 fleet feet doors. They have 28 marathon doors. So Fleet Feet is. They have a lot of locations. What's your.

[Dave]

I would have said thousands. I would have said thousands based on the number of badges that I see. What's your question? But my question is really, really relevant to this is what do you call a group of Fleet Feet buyers? Like, what would that be? I think it's like A gaggle area.

[Colin True]

Murder of crows.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, A fraggle.

[Dave]

Like, is it a fraggle? A lead, maybe. Buyers, a pace. Right. I also came up with a heel that's also interesting. But.

[Colin True]

So when you're going through the trade.

[Owen Comerford]

These are the big questions that keep Dave up at night.

[Dave]

That's right. That's right. When you see a group of buyers all with the same badges, there's. Is it a scrum? I mean, that's interesting.

[Colin True]

Should be something running related, though, shouldn't it? Like.

[Owen Comerford]

Well, right, sure.

[Colin True]

The eyewits. I don't know. Well, the reason I bring up Fleet Feet is because last week, in an interview with Footwear News, Fleet Feet CEO Joey Pointer detailed the running retailer's plans for 2026, which include expanding Fleet Feet by at least 16 stores and Marathon by another possible 20 doors. So I was just kind of thinking about this. I mean, Owen, given the running boom and the rise of trail running, and like we're saying, we're seeing these guys all over the floor at the running event. Big show. Is Fleet Feet now the most consequential outdoor active retailer we have?

[Owen Comerford]

No. Oh, not really. And we're done.

[Colin True]

Move on to the next thing.

[Owen Comerford]

No, because typically, do they have a loyalty program? Well, they do, actually, but typically these are smaller stores. Right. So they're doing, I don't know, maybe a few million per door. And at under 300 doors, they're likely well under a billion in sales. And that pales in comparison to an REI at close to 4 billion. The combined Dick's Footlocker mega whatever thing, that's over 20 billion. So, yeah, I mean, it's a meaningful chunk of change. I wouldn't poo poo it at all, but it's by no means the most meaningful. And also, I don't know that they're really consequential for outdoor almost at all, quite frankly, because they are truly run specialty, and they're definitely consequential in run specialty. They're really a big player. But, you know, they're really specialty to run specialty. I mean, I would say even maybe. I don't know how much trail running they actually do. I mean, it's. They are more about road running in general.

[Colin True]

Yeah. I mean, it depends on the location, I'm sure, and what's around that location.

[Owen Comerford]

Oh, sure.

[Colin True]

But they're kind of. They're a bit of an odd duck, though. Right. Because I got to imagine. I imagine there are probably specialty run dealers who like, loathe feet. Fleet feet. Right. And that are Also, like, kind of. I understand your point about the revenue, and I'm sure some of that is, you know, footprint and square footage and stuff like that versus the size of what they can actually sell versus some of these other stores. But it, you know, you could probably have a more diverse assortment. I want to ask about assortment in a second, but it's kind of, I don't know, like, that those numbers kind of surprised me. And, Dave, it's funny you said you thought there might be thousands because, like, I just was like, I didn't think they'd had 300 doors. I mean, that's a lot. And there, it seems like every year there's another announcement of, all right, they took over this other iconic running retailer in this city.

[Intro/Outro Voice]

Right.

[Colin True]

And they're just sort of on this kind of crazy trajectory. I mean, Dave, any thoughts on the brand before we get on the next thing?

[Dave]

No, I just. I thought Owen's point about being more run than even trail run is. Is interesting. I do think that as our infrastructure crumbles and streets and sidewalks become in disrepair, we're going to have more trail running going on in our cities. So maybe they'll be, like, perfectly situated for that.

[Colin True]

But, I mean, do you think that there are so, I mean, okay, so they're obviously focused running focus, like we've been saying, but their assortment could expand as well as the brand expands. I mean, what should an outdoor footwear strategy be for fleet feet? So if you're Merrill, if you're somebody who's like, more like, hey, running, not running focused, but you can cross over into that world, I think you'd be a little shortsighted to not have at least a strategy for fleet feet. Right. And kind of like, look at this growth and be like, how can we get some of that?

[Owen Comerford]

You know, if you're into trail running, then you should absolutely be talking to fleet feet. I mean, I'm not saying that they don't do trail running. I'm just saying it's not their major focus right now. Could it become more of a focus? As, you know, as. As we're predicting, trail running really has a. A moment on. On an even bigger stage. Absolutely. I mean, they. Most trail running brands, actually, that I've talked to, in terms of the. The split between run specialty and outdoor specialty, it's sort of like 60, 40 outdoor versus run. But run specialty is still a big piece of the. Of the pie for trail running. It's just not the overall focus for a fleet feed today.

[Colin True]

Could they be seen as A threat though to outdoor specialty. I mean, they're kind of like a couple tents and some sleeping bags away from kind of, you know, and 300 doors. I mean, I don't know, it just seems like it's, it's growing in that. Not that they maybe wouldn't want that, but it just sort of.

[Owen Comerford]

No, I mean, the reality is, I mean if for most of these stores, given their size, they actually don't even have a great parallel section for runners, let alone for people that are outdoors. Right. And it's very, very footwear focused. So they're not going to start adding tents. I mean, they would add more running apparel before they added tents and backpacks and stuff.

[Colin True]

Right. Or even just a more like lifestyle apparel or winter apparel or something like that. Right? Yeah.

[Owen Comerford]

Right. Run lifestyle, whatever that looks like. Yeah.

[Colin True]

Dave, anything else to add?

[Dave]

No, I'm just looking at. They've got at least 100 different trail running styles on their website. On their website. Again, I don't know how many running styles. It could be just a, you know, 8,000. Right. But they've got all the brands, all the ones that you'd expect. Maybe a couple that you don't expect.

[Owen Comerford]

Do they have the new, the new Keen trail running style?

[Dave]

I don't see the new Keen yet, but they have mount to coast.

[Owen Comerford]

Sure.

[Dave]

Which, which I didn't expect necessarily. The ons, the Hokas, the ultras, for sure. They did not forget Solomon, which I think is worthy of note. Where we might have.

[Owen Comerford]

Well, they're professionals, in fairness.

[Dave]

That's right. They have some Speedland. They have Merrell. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So now you're getting into some high end kind of north.

[Colin True]

Come back next week where Dave will read the brands on another outdoor website.

[Dave]

That's right. And just to our last segment, there is a Nike Ultrafly trail runner. So look out world.

[Owen Comerford]

So. So the interesting thing is if you look at their, on their website, they've got top brands versus trending brands. And top brands are a lot of the ones you would expect in running. Right. Including Lululemon, Mizuno, et cetera. The trending brands though, is it Tyr or Tyr? How do we, how do we pronounce that?

[Colin True]

I've always said Tyr. I thought it was Tyr.

[Owen Comerford]

I thought it was Tyr because it's all caps, but whatever. Then there is FKT gear, sunglasses. Birkenstock is a trending brand for them. Interesting. Chicken legs, which. Yes, okay, go Chicken legs. Sprints, Adidas, which they just inked a new Deal with. Right. For it to promote that brand. Solomon Cotopaxi, to your point. Actually, Colin, hello is a trending brand. Bakeline and Thule. So yeah, I mean maybe a little more diverse than I'm giving them credit for. Okay, fair.

[Colin True]

Well, it's just that's what I mean. They're kind of creeping up. Right. And just I didn't expect that number to be that high. I knew they were had a big presence and you know, we talk about a lot of, you know, the specialty business and it's challenges and I don't know, just something probably worth keeping an eye on what's going on over at Fleet Feet and how it impacts everything else going on in our world. Well, moving on to our next story. According to CISO last week Helena Troy's year over year sales for Q3 declined by 6.7% driven mostly by hydro flask continually softening business. We've talked several times in the past month or so here on the POD about the bottle category being massively overserved. Both you, Owen and Dave, you guys mentioned that what you saw when you did your field trip to your local Sierra and the basically, you know, giant Walmart sized aisle, that was nothing.

[Owen Comerford]

It was huge.

[Dave]

Yes, right. Overserved. I like what you did there. That was good.

[Colin True]

Oh yeah. And if you go and if you go into a lot of different stores, I mean like grocery, just home goods, whatever, you're going to find a huge assortment of insulated bottles. I think like I was in Michael's at Christmas and they had water bottles for sale. So I'm curious for both of you, is this the end of a category? Right. If I'm an outdoor retailer, like I definitely would carry performance hydration accessories from a brand like Hydropack. Right. Whether that was came in the product, other products I carried or I carried their own stuff separately, I would carry Nalgene because that is something that has a very specific use and reputation in the industry. I would then probably carry or pick a high margin insulated lifestyle option. But at this point, do I even care what brand that's from? I mean, does that track with you guys? Is that on the right path? Does it matter anymore?

[Owen Comerford]

I think it matters. It's a key category for outdoor just because it's a great volume player, it's a great add on sale. Mostly it's in that $30 price point which is a good one for just somebody coming in. And we talk all the time about the lifestyle aspect of outdoor stores. Well, I mean hydration is a lifestyle thing. It Isn't really an activity thing anymore.

[Dave]

Right.

[Owen Comerford]

Everyone's walking around with their Stanley Quencher or whatever attached surgically to their hand apparently. So I think it absolutely remains a key category in terms of what they would stock. I think at least, I mean, to your point, at least one brand, maybe two. Do I care what the brand is? I care that it's a brand that isn't, that isn't selling below full price. Right. A brand that has brand equity and that is willing to support specialty retail. That's what I care about. So you know, like right now, I mean, Yeti to a degree. Right. Still very much a full price brand, but also not that friendly to special retail if you, if you're not willing to carry their full line, apparently. But there are other brands they're punting specialty retailers apparently. Right. And very widely distributed too. I mean, you know, you can find, you can find, you know, Yeti at your local Ace hardware store. So. But Stanley, I was. The bloom was off that rose hydro flask we talked about here. Yeah, but there's always a new one coming up, whether it's Oala or you know, Circle or whatever, whatever the latest and greatest new hydration brand is.

[Colin True]

Well, that's, I mean, that's, we've talked about some of those in the past and that's what I mean there was like a decade and a half run where there Was this like 18 month cadence to the next hydration brand. And that's what I mean is that, that seems like it's just run its course out. Like if I had a no name, like, you know, you know it could sell for 10 bucks, but it cost me 2 bucks. Caught a bottle that was just insulated. Does that fill the needle? I mean, I agree with you that obviously a brand, there's certain people who are going to be looking for that, but I don't know if everyone even cares anymore. Dave, what do you think is the brand game over for.

[Dave]

I don't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't conflate end of a category with the maturation of a category. I mean you're, you're right. For a while we only had a couple players and so there was room for more, bigger players to settle the, the pillars, if you will. And that's kind of what we have now. But I think the idea though that someone is always going to constantly come up and maybe that timeline is a little bit longer is totally. It's still a trend driven accessory. And so once it's moved from hydration just Being a functional need to a fashion accessory based on color and season, that's just going to create a churn that I just will constantly. Again, it'll always have a, it'll always have a restock, seasonal aspect to it. So I think that that gives you some kind of, some, some long lasting. And also going into your Yeti like I think, I think they're confusing prima donna for premium.

[Colin True]

Right.

[Dave]

I really do. I think the idea of cutting specialty while keeping like hardware is a weird, weird way to go about it because they won't carry their full line. And I think this, you know, will it impact their march to dominate the maga cooler market? You know, probably not. But will it serve them when they genuinely do plateau from a tre perspective and demand softens? I feel like you're just giving a certain percent of your distribution market and one that will become more coveted as you mature, a reason to root against you and a reason to give these upstarts a chance. Right. And so, and thus the disruptor cycle continues. It's like an unforced error that will play out over time that has a bigger impact than maybe right now.

[Owen Comerford]

So Dave, if you had to guess, which category at Yeti would you say is bigger, coolers or drinkware? Oh, drinkware 100%, exactly.

[Dave]

Yeah. Right.

[Owen Comerford]

I mean people think of Yeti as a cooler company, not so much. And the drinkware has been actually quite resilient in terms of volume. Part of it just being finding more and more points of distribution. But that's why they went after Mystery Ranch and all the rest of it. They need that next category for them to splash the yeti brand on and drive some volume.

[Dave]

Yeah, right, right. And that's why I think go. But cutting out specialty as the play it does to me just doesn't make sense to me. I would be reinforcing that while trying to also expand that top side of the, of the. I mean that's the beauty of their brand is they found a nice balance between outdoor and outdoor and outdoor. Right. I mean in a sense that they have a more of a mainstream outdoor recreation hunt fish side of their brand that also then you know, is just as plays just as well in outdoor specialty. I think by cutting out specialty you hurt yourself.

[Owen Comerford]

And you know, we just heard that from a couple of specialty retailers that that's what happened to them. So I don't know if that's a widespread, fair enough widespread thing or not, but it's certainly something we've heard a couple of times from some specialty players.

[Colin True]

So, yeti aside, I want to go back to something you said, Dave, because you're right. Okay. Too hyperbolic by me to say at the end of a category, but the maturation of a category. And I think there's a correlation here between what we're seeing with insulated bottles specifically and nutrition. Right. There was a time when if you wanted your goo or whatever it was, you had to go to a run shop, a bike shop or an outdoor shop. And now if you go into your local, you know, Kroger owned grocery store chain, you're going to find an aisle of that kind of stuff.

[Dave]

It's at the checkout aisle of home goods.

[Colin True]

And I think this is what I mean. Like I, I guess if you're a specialty retailer, I don't know if there's, I don't think there's another brand coming on the insulin insulation side, like the market is served, whether it's Yeti. You can have a yeti. You can things.

[Dave]

Don't bury your head, Colin. No, that, that's, that's the point of the word disrupt. It's like you can't necessarily call where it's coming from. It's going to come, but you just don't know where it's going to come from.

[Colin True]

I'm not going to disagree with you because you're right. History has taught us that. But it's just like right now, if what you, what do you want to stock? Yeah, you could have a Yeti or you could have like brand X that Eddie's available. I don't know if anyone's going to care, you know is my point.

[Owen Comerford]

Well, people care.

[Dave]

Some Kardashian will be seen carrying it on an Instagram post and boom, it.

[Colin True]

Goes, we're going carry water in the palm of my hand. Like that's do. That's the greatest way to transport your water.

[Dave]

It's handmade water, Colin. It's really, it's, it's the best.

[Owen Comerford]

Well, absolutely, because, I mean, why would you, why would you pay, I mean, whatever it is, $30 for a, a yeti that costs $5 to make. I mean that, that's the, that's the net. Net of it. It's a, there's a lot of brand equity there, people.

[Dave]

Because it's a four wheel drive water vessel. That's why.

[Owen Comerford]

That's right, exactly.

[Colin True]

All right, are you guys ready for the lightning round?

[Dave]

Yes. Yeah. I thought that was the lightning round. Thank goodness, because that was taking forever.

[Colin True]

Water bottles are interesting.

[Dave]

They are, they are. Just from wanting to kick them around kind of thing. But that's.

[Intro/Outro Voice]

Lightning round.

[Colin True]

All right, first up in the lightning round. As of this, as we alluded to earlier, as of this recording, the ski patrol strike intelluride is still happening. This is the second strike in as many winters. Listeners will recall, last winter's patrollers in Park City also struck. The big difference between the two is while Park City is owned by Vail Resorts, Telluride is owned by a guy named Chuck Horning. So. Oh. And it seems that the crumbling resort world isn't all due to a bigger corporation like Vail. But between climate change and unpredictable weather, along with all these labor issues, do you have hope for the snow sports industry?

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, I mean, as long as there are rich people, there will be a snow sports industry or people who want to look like they're rich people. I mean, that's kind of the.

[Dave]

Or look like they are in a.

[Owen Comerford]

Snow sports industry, Right? Exactly. You know, yeah. I mean, obviously the industry's got some structural issues, whether it's the, you know, I put a lot of it on the whole season pass issue, which it really does underpin the whole industry now. And it's the way the industry has avoided the, the weather stuff stuff, because basically they don't care. Well, they do. They do because they still obviously want people to show up so that they will, you know, pay the hotel stuff and buy the overpriced food and drink. But they're getting a lot of their revenue up front regardless of what happens with the weather. So that's, that's why they love this thing. But I really do think it creates this tragedy of the commons issue around, around availability on these slopes, overcrowding, bad experience. So that to me is what sort of pulling away at the industry and then, you know, in terms of Telluride, even though they're not part of Vail, they're actually part of Vail's epic pass. So they are kind of part of it to a degree. And, you know, I think the reason why we're seeing a strike at Telluride is because those guys saw what happened to the highly publicized strike at Vail the prior year. So, I mean, I think Vail definitely impacted what's happening at Telluride right now. But no, I think the industry is not in a great place, but it's not going anywhere.

[Dave]

Well, look, I think an upper class business model, which is what they seem to be retreating to, is definitely going to be resilient against both climate change and price. Right. And so they don't seem to feel the need to make alterations, but it doesn't solve the, the affordability and wage issue. That will be the pinch point that you talk about overcrowding. Well, that's a big part of overcrowding is not having the staff able to move people through. It's like, you know, I thought you, it's amazing the kind of impact that one demotivated lifty can have on the enjoyment of upper class families from across Cleveland. Right. I mean it's just like, man, and if we don't solve that, that side, that will impact the upper class business model, if you will. And so it's, it's, it's, I think it's as big a challenge to that industry as climate change, frankly.

[Colin True]

For sure. All right, well, like I said, good luck to the folks in Telluride. We are on your side here. Next up, the lightning round.

[Dave]

Telluride.

[Colin True]

Telluride. According to the inertia, Nepalese Authorities are requiring Mount Everest climbers to put down a $4,000 deposit that they won't get back unless they take 18 pounds of garbage off of the mountain during their climb. The only issue is the average everest climber produces 26 pounds of garbage when they are on the mountain. So if you simply clean up after yourself, you're going to get your deposit back and the mountain stays dirty. Dave, do you have any recommendations for how to clean up the massive trash pile that Mount Everest has become?

[Dave]

I do. Prayer flags, Colin. Biodegradable prayer flags, I think made from castor beans. Right.

[Colin True]

How does it clean up what's already there?

[Dave]

That will solve the issue right there. Look, if I learned anything from thoughts and prayers. Thoughts and prayers. If I learned anything from rewatching Breaking Bad over the pandemic like multiple times, I learned that castor beans can solve all of our problems. They can make deadly ricin. They can make, you know, what is it? Midsoles and outsoles and membranes. I think that's the, I think that's the answer.

[Colin True]

But producer name secretly Heisenberg.

[Dave]

Right, There we go. My other thought was building a scale model of Everest and call it Everest 2 and maybe put that in the new state of Venezuela and create a whole tourist destination. And you know, my guess is that half the people who sign up would actually not even be able to tell the difference between Venezuela and Tibet.

[Colin True]

Build it out of raw petroleum.

[Dave]

You know, I think we could. I think there's something there. And if that doesn't work, good old regulation and visitor restrictions and, and state sponsored punishment could possibly be the way around that, but I think it's gonna take. Look, I think they're focused on it now though. And that is a weird, like you said, you're not even pulling out what you brought in the focus on it. They will get more extreme in their, their efforts to police it, I think. And that's what I think you'll, you'll start to see.

[Colin True]

Dave, they said you couldn't take a dark topic and make it darker, but you did it.

[Owen Comerford]

Good job.

[Dave]

I did, I did.

[Owen Comerford]

Thank you.

[Dave]

Well, I was also envisioning big of those big sky crane helicopters too. That's also something, that's, I think an answer.

[Colin True]

Sorry, I want to cut you off. What were you saying?

[Owen Comerford]

I think the only problem with the $4,000 deposit is that there isn't an extra zero because, you know, I mean, these folks are paying, I mean, just for their permit to climb is what, 30, $40,000.

[Dave]

Right.

[Colin True]

More in some cases.

[Owen Comerford]

Right. It's depending on, right. Whether you go which side you climb from. But then you're paying for all the guide service and it's a very, very expensive thing. So my concern is just, you know, $4,000, like, eh, let's just write that in. It's another line item on the page and it doesn't change the.

[Dave]

It's like that clear coat on the new car.

[Colin True]

That's right.

[Dave]

All right.

[Colin True]

Lastly, for the lightning round, rip to Cannondale co founder Joe Montgomery, who passed away earlier this month at age 18. Montgomery and two others started Cannondale in 1971 as a camping supply and air conditioner company. Good combo there before pivoting to bicycles in 1983. Oh, and reading about Cannondale made me wonder why the division between outdoor and bike. Pretty much all outdoor enthusiasts own at least one bike. What needs to happen for a bike to be more integrated into the outdoor industry? The way the industry that we cover here on the rock bike.

[Owen Comerford]

You know, the outdoor industry is extremely protective of its independent bike dealers, IBDs way more so than the outdoor industry. I mean it still makes news today if like a Trek or a Specialized ratchets up its D2C to where it's actually shipping bikes directly to consumers. This was a story last year in the outdoor industry. It's like we're a decade past that crossing that Rubicon. So no, I mean, so that's a big part of it. But part of the reason why the higher end bike industry is so protective of IBDs is because there's an amount of service that's needed to have a successful experience with the bike. Right? So you want to get in, you want to get fitted. You don't want to just ship it in a carton and hope that somebody knows how to put it together. It's not a great experience. And then, oh, by the way, there's service and there's tires and all the things. So because of all that, you really actually have to invest a lot to be able to properly sell bikes. And we did this in Moosera. We had sold bike accessories for a while, but then in 2018, we actually added bike to a number of stores. And to your point, it worked really well. Great customer overlap, et cetera, et cetera. Did a huge bike business out of our Bentonville store, as you might imagine. But to get there, we were willing to write very big checks to these bike brands. And they're like, yeah, no, we're really not interested at all in selling to you. Interesting. And then eventually it said, well, okay, if you open two dedicated bike locations, we will sell it to you. And then in some cases, we could only sell through the location. In some, we could also sell online. But, yeah, and that. Even after all that, I think we ended up, we had three or four locations that sold bike. Even then we had some cool brands. We had like a Rocky Mountain, Pivot, Norco, and some others. But, like, the big guys, it was like, yeah, no, we're not track Specialized. No, no, thank you. Giant, Cannondale, Santa Cruz. We're just.

[Colin True]

Because you're an outdoor store, not a bike shop, basically.

[Owen Comerford]

Correct. Exactly.

[Colin True]

Huh. Now, I mean, if you had had time, this. That was 2018. So, like, kind of getting closer to the end. If you think if you had had time to, like, prove the model a little bit more right, you know, get some other. Get to get those stores, start to show some success and get. Get some reputation as, like, oh, this is a good bike location. You think that maybe they would have come around, or do you feel like you always would have been fighting that fight?

[Owen Comerford]

I think they would have come around in time, especially over the last two years. They would have been like, yeah, we'll take whatever. We don't care who the hell you are, we'll take your money. Because we have this whole warehouse full of shit that we made in 2023.

[Colin True]

Principled. We're not that way anymore. All right, for the main topic today, we're talking about D2Cuz. Last week, Footwear news covered several outdoor brands who will be opening their own stores in 2026. Those brands are Hoka, who's going to be opening a spot in Brooklyn because of course they are, but that will go with their other 48 shops. Salomon is expected to be opening seven to 10 stores. Saucony, they're going to be opening stores in China and in Europe. Also, La Sportiva, who put out a press release last week that they will be opening a new shop in Salt Lake City. These announcements got me thinking about the role DTC plays for brands because it's evolved over the past 15 years. Brands going direct was a big part of the 2010s, and when a fair amount of those initiatives failed, it was a win for wholesale. But obviously selling direct continued to grow as we see with E commerce and these physical locations opening up. So I suppose just to start more broadly, Owen, what would you call the current state of DTC as we enter 2026? Right. Because it definitely has evolved probably from that peak 20, 15, 17, 18 range. And then everyone just declared that, oh, that didn't work. We're not going to do that anymore. And it's still. That's not the case. But, like, where are we today, do you think?

[Owen Comerford]

If we're talking D2C, brick and mortar specifically, it really varies a lot by geography. I mean, in China, it's basically all D2C almost. Right. You look at Arc', Teryx, you look at anybody that's opening in China, they're opening DTC stores. So that's just the way of the way that they shop, obviously. And part of that is just that they had a much less developed and entrenched retail organization landscape. Right. So when these brands wanted to launch in China, they said, well, why? You know, there isn't really somebody to sell into or to buy our stuff. So we're just going to build our own stores. So that's a bit of a different model. Europe is kind of a little bit in between. And I would say in the United States, it's still, you know, very regional. You know, like. So Boulder, sure, you're going to see lots of D2C stores in Boulder.

[Dave]

Really? Where, where do you see? They're so tucked away.

[Owen Comerford]

They're so tucked away. They're all up and down Pearl street and every other place.

[Colin True]

Boulder, Minnesota, I believe, is.

[Dave]

Oh, right, right. I see.

[Colin True]

Colorado, sorry, Boulder.

[Owen Comerford]

But then, you know, Manhattan and Brooklyn, obviously. Salt Lake City, Denver, you know, I mean, there's, there's, there are these hubs, but like, you get to other big cities, Midwestern cities, you know, Kansas City, let's say you're not going to find a whole ton.

[Colin True]

Right, right.

[Owen Comerford]

Brand stores in Kansas City. So yeah, it is. It's very regional, I would say.

[Colin True]

Look at that shot. First they lose Travis Kelce. I don't know if he's officially retired yet, but you know, he's thinking about it. And now Comerford's taking shots at Kansas City on the Rock fight.

[Dave]

You know, I was thinking of the model, the Mahomes Artery store or the Mahomes Patagonia store.

[Colin True]

I would get some eyeballs.

[Owen Comerford]

That's actually a pretty good idea.

[Intro/Outro Voice]

That's right.

[Dave]

I mean, it's got car chains, I'm sure, so might as well.

[Owen Comerford]

I mean, you think about it, right? Most, most brands don't have that many U.S. stores. Like the North Face has, I think around 100 stores in the, in the U.S. market. Okay. They're probably one of the, one of the bigger players. They, they, at least they did have a store in Kansas City in the Plaza. I think it's still there. Colombia has over 50, but even like a Patagonia is under 50, as far as I know. And you know, Hoka is just, just about to get close to 50. So like, if you look at that 50 store as a metric of whether they. They side of any kind of major markets, there's just not that many really, in the grand scheme of things.

[Colin True]

So that's on the brick and mortar side. If you then kind of roll in the E Commerce piece of it, who would you say has the momentum right now? Is it dtc? Is it wholesale? I mean, can one really thrive without the other, in your opinion, Colin?

[Dave]

I think what you're looking for is the winner is Omnichannel. Right. That's the soup du jour going on right now. How do I tie these together and then get the best of both of those worlds? I think that's what separates from the beginning of the D2C world. 15, 20 years ago was really more of a brick and mortar approach. And now you're seeing how can we bring these two things together.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, I agree. I would say it slightly differently, which is to say when DTC was first launched within these brands, it was launched almost as a skunk works separate from the wholesale business and really allowed to run rampant by itself. Right. But it became very much focused on just its own sales numbers, really, in many cases cannibalized from wholesale or even actually undercutting wholesale by breaking their own map policies and doing all that kind of stuff. So that was like the last decade. I think things are changing now. And the brands that are being successful and taking more strategic view. They look at the macro, right? They say hey listen, our online site, it shouldn't be a place where discounting happens, right? Our online site should be sort of the hub where we build all of this top of the funnel traffic and brand demand. And then if we can serve that through our own online shop, great. But hey, if we refer it to a dealer through like a locally or whatever, that's fine too. We view that sale as the same as a D2C sale or if we send them to our own brick and mortar stores, those are all great. And it's all about working together to raise the brand and raise the total revenue versus Silo A versus Silo B.

[Dave]

I would say that's one of the top discussions going on amongst marketers for sure. Is the balance between the performance marketing aspect metrics, LED versus brand like again, where am I driving that customer and is it okay to drive to different channels? I mean for sure. I think also too what you're starting to recognize is the data loop that you're getting this kind of 360 view of your customer, right? Where online I'm getting kind of the browsing data and the cart behavior engagement. But then coupled in an in store where you're getting fit feedback and try on kind of information, you put those together and it just creates a much smarter kind of context that you can take to your customers going forward. I think that's the real the magic of the two pieces together. But I would also say that this does, I mean it does help wholesale at the end, lifting awareness, especially targeted ways I do think can help your wholesale business by having that even a branded store, maybe not across the street, but in terms of the visibility, the ability to create this kind of showroom aspect, controlling kind of map compliance all helps the the specialty retailer at the end of the day.

[Colin True]

Well, it probably a good time to reach back out to our pal Neil Fisk over at Black diamond or Don Bushy at Wilderness Exchange to see kind of get check in and see how the whole Black Diamond Wilderness Exchange marriage went. Because that's an interesting kind of, you know, outlier in this conversation. And obviously the brands who spurred this conversation unsurprisingly are running brands right at a time when the one category that is impervious to all the kind of global market forces is running. And it's an interesting mix though, right? Like La Sportiva I find fascinating. I assume that means Salt Lake City is because their Boulder store must be going well enough that they want to try another market that's relatively close to home. You know Saucony I would be. That's interesting. But it's like oh, they're focusing on China and Europe to your point zero and right. It's like that's the spot where you want to do it if you can do it right now. And then you know, Hoka is Hoka. Like you know they're, they're going to just, they feel like they can do it. I guess what I just think about like it's an interesting why you would decide to do it and you guys gave a lot of really good reasons about why you potentially would do it to do this. And it. What's the. But what's the risk reward in terms of like how it impacts your, your wholesale partners and where does it go and like how does the, how does that, you know that boulder roll downhill of if it's. Is anybody going to get in the way of are you going to hurt anyone by choosing to open these stores regardless of maybe what your intentions are? You know what I mean?

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, I think it depends on the level of saturation. So I remember we had a store in Chicago up in the Lincoln park area and arc' Teryx was one of our top brands. We ended up putting a shop and shop inside our store and so we were committed to arc' Teryx and they to us. Then they turn around a year later and they're like oh by the way, we're going to open an arc' Teryx store about two miles away. We're like oh, well that kind of sucks. But their point was what they see when they open an Arcarix store in the market is that there's this sort of. It raises all ships to kind of to Dave's point, which is it becomes more of a brand in general in the market. They invest in the market themselves. They probably they would over invest in terms of marketing in that local market than they would in a market where they didn't have a store. So it really does drive more demand. And so somebody's looking for architecture, they hear about it, they see the billboards, et cetera. Maybe they go into the Arcterics store, maybe they go into the Moose Chart or if they come into the Moose Charles store, they know who arcteryx is and why it's priced the way it is and why they should want it. So I do think if it goes hand in hand with that where it is this raising all ships approach again, this macro approach, I think it works. It's when you're reaching more of a saturation approach where now you've got three, four, five stores in a market. It's just like eh, okay, now we're not raising all ships where we're actually seeing it View.

[Colin True]

Yeah. And that point of view, like if, you know, if I'm an outdoor enthusiast, I'm going to walk into Moose Jaw even if there's an arc store next door. And if you're just like, hey, I just need a really sweet expensive raincoat like oh cool, an arc store. Right. You're probably. Those are two different customers anyway. And really at the end of the day the, the real impact would be hey, is arc' teryx driving some giant discount on their website? That would be what would potentially hurt the whole the. Your wholesale partner. Right.

[Owen Comerford]

Wish they. Which they never did. So kudos to them.

[Colin True]

Good job ar.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Colin True]

They had to save all that money for fireworks. All right, so I guess last thing.

[Owen Comerford]

Will that ever be? Will that ever.

[Dave]

No, no, no it will not. No it will not.

[Colin True]

If we have anything to say about it.

[Dave]

Lives forever on the Googles. Like let's just go. Yeah.

[Colin True]

But I guess just to wrap it up, I mean what is there a common sense strategy here for a brand? Like if you're a brand considering this because again, wide array of brands are Las Portiva to Hoka to Solomon to Sakony. Like if you were kind of cons these guys, Owen, like, you know, what would you. What kind of. What's the strategy? You would tell an established brand or maybe even a new brand who's considering opening some stores on their own.

[Owen Comerford]

I think the best advice is to take it pretty slowly on brick and mortar expansion specifically, you know, the retail graveyard is strewn with brands that went too fast on retail expansion before really understanding their model, their prototype, how they make money. You know, what are the dynamics of a market that works for them versus one that doesn't and all of those things. So yeah, I would take my time, really get those store financials in place and then start with the key markets that have the highest addressable demand for your particular brand and then move down from there. Don't just assume that, well, I've got to be in New York. Maybe you don't. Maybe that isn't the right market for you and look at it more as this sort of flagship place where we can invest and raise all ships, et cetera, as opposed to we need 100 doors, you know, within three years and we're going to, you know, saturate the country with, with this brand. So I think that would be the, the first thing and I think most brands have learned that lesson, at least in the outdoor industry. If you're a new brand, I would say I would definitely start slow because it's, it's expensive to open a store. You know, I mean you're, you're looking at, I mean we had a dando science and it was like 300 grand and that was cheap. And you know, when you talk about just the it dependent build out fixtures, all that stuff.

[Colin True]

Including inventory.

[Owen Comerford]

No, no. And then inventory. No, no, no. Inventory is another, you know, 5, 6, 800K. Right. So.

[Colin True]

Right, right. But just to actually open the store out of pocket, that's 300k at least.

[Dave]

You know, probably like.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, I mean that was actually pre, pre Walmart days. I mean it got up, up closer to close to half million. But net net you're looking at about a million bucks to open a store. Right. Roughly inventory and build out maybe a lot more. So you know, if you're an emerging brand, you're probably better served investing in more top of the funnel brand awareness at a national level than doing that on a, you know, market by market, I would say. Now I think where it can work is if you want to create like a single flagship maybe in your hometown, like lives in. For example, they're creating a company store type of approach in Bentonville. So I think that can work where there's sort of inherent demand and inherent support for the brand and it becomes a destination for brand zealots to come and see the store and that's cool. But yeah, if you're an emerging brand investing millions in a store rollout, unless you've got huge private equity backing, I would not recommend.

[Colin True]

And if you're especially. Oh, go ahead Dave. Sorry.

[Dave]

No, I was just saying I think you're spot on with the geographical kind of specific flagship or even outlet supporting that. I mean it's funny you're talking about kind of that early, that warning, you know, today's branded retailer is tomorrow's tapas bar, you know, and it just, it's over and over and over. You see these things start up with these grand dreams, right? And boom, it becomes an empty shell. And look, I think this, you know, a single retail is manageable, you know, but once you start, you know, trying to plot beyond that, you become a retail and real estate company. And that's, I don't think people are necessarily ready for that in a, in a smaller to mid sized business.

[Owen Comerford]

You know, you've Got to worry about assortment planning and you know, it's hard. It's hard to put. To put in place all of the different things. You need to have a great retail store, but only supported by one location, right? Yeah.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Colin True]

And if you're a specialty retailer and one of these stores open up near you, this is you, you go, you find some dog poo, you put it in a paper bag, you set it on fire in front of their door, you run away. That's what you do.

[Owen Comerford]

That's right.

[Colin True]

That's fixed now.

[Dave]

As long as it's biodegradable.

[Intro/Outro Voice]

It's time for a body shop.

[Colin True]

Time for the parting shot party shot. This week I haven't, I didn't even write it out. I just was. I was so inspired this week because I've mentioned the pot a few times. Behind my house was this little mountain that I go out and hike on and run on and stuff like that. And it's a. It's not like a destination where if you didn't live nearby, you would come seek this place out. There's like maybe three miles of trails on it, right. So you can kind of make it several loops that can, you can stretch it to five kind of thing. But it gets a lot of action from the neighborhoods around it. And as such, it's kind of. It's not the cleanest of trails. Right. There's a fair amount of stuff on the trail. Some of that looks like there's a dirt road. Looks like somebody once kind of took a load of trash and put it up there. And it's not filthy, but it's. Every once in a while you're like, oh look, there's some stuff on there. And I often will walk by going, man, I really should come up here with a trash bag on my hikes or my runs and clean up. And then I always, I never think to do it. And the other day, twice this in the over the holiday break, twice this happened. I was hiking up the trail with my dog and a woman was coming running the other way. It total like, you know, wearing like a Nathan hydration vest. She's like fully trail rutted, kitted out, two full trash bags, one in each hand. Coming down from the summit because it's a bears summit, you can see the ocean from up there. A lot of people will go up, they'll drive their trucks up there and camp and then they, you know, they leave stuff behind. It's where most of the trash is. And as she's running by the first time I Look at her. I go, thank you for doing the thing that I always say that I'm going to do and have not done yet.

[Intro/Outro Voice]

Yet.

[Colin True]

And then three or four days later, I was going up the trail again, and here she comes again, two more bags of trash. And I was so inspired by this woman. I'm like, this is now my New Year's resolution. Like, once a month, I'm planning on going up there with this, the trash. You know, even I just pick some things up. And I mean, I try to make this a part of my daily life anyway. Whether I'm on, like, just walking the dog on the bike path or whatever. If you see a bottle, you pick it up, carry it until I find a trash can, whatever. But just a little, you know, in this crazy. These crazy times, it's an easy way, guys, to kind of support your local bike paths, your sidewalks, your trail. Else, pick up the trash. You don't have to do with this. This woman is a saint. Carrying two giant bags of trash, like two miles down the trail to a trash can at the bottom of the trail. But, you know, we can all pitch in a little bit and keep things a little cleaner. And I was just inspired by what I saw out of my local trails. So I wanted to make that today's parting shot.

[Owen Comerford]

That's great. Have you done it yet?

[Colin True]

No.

[Owen Comerford]

Okay, we're gonna check in with you.

[Colin True]

I've only been up one more time since then.

[Owen Comerford]

We're gonna check in with you in early February and see this status. All right?

[Colin True]

That's a fair timeline. That's fair because I keep forgetting.

[Owen Comerford]

So, Colin, here's what you do is you take two trash bags, okay? You shove them into your favorite trail running shoes, and then you can't forget they're in there when you go to put them on.

[Colin True]

And now it's like they're lined with Gore Tex. And my feet will sweat as much anyway, so it's fine.

[Dave]

Colony. You forgot my photo essay of doggy bags on the trail. And I want you to know I'm already. I'm ready for round. Round three. We're gonna have the third installment of doggy bags left on trail.

[Owen Comerford]

I just do not understand.

[Colin True]

Oh, I.

[Intro/Outro Voice]

The.

[Owen Comerford]

Okay. It's like you're better off to leave the dog shit there than to put it in a bag and then leave it on the side of the trail. I mean, if you're gonna be an asshole, just go all the way. Because actually, that's the shorter term issue than bags of dog shit on the trail. That will just never break down and just sit there.

[Colin True]

It's it. Remember when like you were in high. I don't know. I did this where like, you're like, I'm going to do a bad job at something so no one asks me to do it again. But like, I still feel like I kind of contributed a little bit. That's what this feels like to me. Because I mean, if you're like two again, two miles into a hike and there's your dog taking dump and you have the bag, but you're like, I don't really want to carry this thing around for the rest of my hike. You know what? I'll. I'll leave it here and I'll pick it up on the way back. And then by the time you get back.

[Dave]

You know what? That's actually what this. These are way back bags.

[Colin True]

They are way back bags.

[Dave]

That's exactly what these are. They're way back bags.

[Colin True]

Sometimes I think people probably genuinely forget them.

[Dave]

I think they believe it.

[Colin True]

I think. Then there's others who just are like, I am never gonna touch that thing again.

[Dave]

Right, right. I think they do believe it. But my photo essays would indicate otherwise, that they remain there. But it did make me think, oh, you've got these bags. Maybe castor beans are the answer here too. Right? I think it all comes back to the castor beans. Biodegradable doggy waybacks.

[Owen Comerford]

I'm sure that exists. Right? That's the thing.

[Dave]

Sure, I'm sure.

[Colin True]

Oh, and you're absolutely right. Because if the point. At that point, sometimes if you don't have a bag, I have. I will totally cop to this. And if you're own a dog and you hike with it, you're lying. If you haven't done this. If you tell me you haven't done this, the dog takes a. You don't have a bag. Well, you find the stick and you flick it off the trail. You know what I mean? Like, what are you gonna do that? At least no one's gonna know. At that point, you're already.

[Dave]

And it's just damaging, probably.

[Colin True]

Is leaving the bag there maybe less damaging? I don't know. But like, whatever, right? Don't even bag it up if you're not going to carry it out. I don't get that. That's the show. Send your emails in. Tell Dave to talk. Talk more about castor beans. Apparently it's on his mind. We want. Send it to myrocktmail.com the rock fights A production at Rock Fight LLC Today's episode was produced by producer castor bean. Dave at art direction provided by sarah gensert for oh. Owen comerford, I'm Colin true. Thank you for listening. And here to take us out is krista makes with the rock fight fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.

[Dave]

Boom.

[Intro/Outro Voice]

Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree Agree to disagree we talk about human powered outdoor activities and pig bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music the latest movie reviews Ideas that aim for the head this is where we speak our truth this is where we speak our truth Rock fight rock fight rock fight welcome to the rock side Rock fight rock fight welcome to the rock flight rock flight Rock fight rock fight rock fight, rock fight welcome to the rock fight rock fight rock fight rock fight.