The Rock Fight Signs Off With a Final Look at the Outdoor Industry

Summary

The Rock Fight Signs Off With a Final Look at the Outdoor Industry

Podcast: The Rock Fight: Outdoor Industry & Adventure Sports Commentary
Date: January 26, 2026
Host: Colin True
Guests/Co-Hosts: Owen Comerford (Industry Insider), Dave Karstad (Producer & Co-Founder)

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Episode Overview

As The Rock Fight podcast casts its final stone, hosts Colin True, Owen Comerford, and Dave Karstad gather for an honest, unscripted conversation on the current state and future of the outdoor industry. With their trademark irreverence, skepticism, and deep industry knowledge, they take one last parting shot at outdoor media, retail, and brands—celebrating what works, airing frustrations, and reflecting on the podcast’s own impact and legacy. Additionally, the episode teases what’s next for the team and cracks plenty of jokes about litigious outdoor brands, notably Patagonia.

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Main Themes & Discussion Points

1. The End of The Rock Fight & the State of the Podcast

• Announcement: This is the final episode of The Rock Fight. The team quips about a (fake) Patagonia lawsuit over the word “rock” in the podcast’s name, using it as a springboard to discuss legal absurdities in the industry.
  • “It was funny…the week we’re talking about shutting this down, Patagonia sues Patagonia—which is like a tailor-made story for the show.” – Colin True (03:37)
• Legacy of the Podcast: They reflect on creating a space for unfiltered industry commentary and the appetite for real, sometimes messy, discussions.
  • “If we’ve uncovered anything with the show, it’s that there’s an appetite for the conversations we have here.” – Colin True (10:04)

2. What’s Next: The Outdoor Insiders Podcast

• New Project Teased:
  • Owen Comerford announces plans for a new podcast, “The Outdoor Insiders,” expected to launch in early March, focusing on candid industry coverage and more interviews.
  • "I've been bitten by the bug...my plan is to start a new podcast called The Outdoor Insiders...to cover the industry, the news of the industry, in a way that cuts through all the bullshit and kind of gets to what's really going on." – Owen Comerford (07:36)
  • He’s soliciting potential co-hosts and interviewees, ideally bringing in diverse (non mid-50s white guy) voices.

3. Outdoor Industry Media: A Tired Landscape

• State of Media:
  • The hosts lament the lack of critical, engaging industry coverage, noting a glut of “warmed over press releases” and media-trained executives who say little of substance. They observe that real commentary is missing.
  • "There’s a lot of ball washing out there…here’s why you’re going to be inspired and this is why this brand is so inspiring…not a level of, 'hey, what can we learn?'" – Colin True (15:55)
  • “What we have now is essentially a press release distribution system...The idea of actual color commentary is disappearing.” – Dave Karstad (16:52)
• Media Economics & AI:
  • They discuss industry-wide challenges of media value being eroded by tech, shrinking newsrooms, and reliance on AI-generated content.
  • “Never been more information available…and never been less good information available.” – Owen Comerford (19:46)
• Shout-out: Gear Junkie is praised for recent critical coverage, showing hope for more substantive analysis (20:00).

4. Retail: Resilience and the Human Touch

• Brick & Mortar’s Staying Power:
  • Despite predictions of doom from e-commerce and AI, specialty retail persists so long as shops deliver real value, connection, and evolve with technology.
  • "Good retailers that add value to their consumers are still thriving...we are wired to want human interaction." – Owen Comerford (22:24)
  • Examples like Playmakers (Lansing, MI) highlight how adapting, not resisting change, is key.
• Convenience vs. Experience:
  • Tech and AI make shopping impersonal, reaffirming the importance of community and expertise in stores.
  • "If you run your shop and you're good and smart…the demand will be there because it's fun to go to these stores." – Colin True (24:01)

5. Brands: Mediocrity, Algorithms, and Authenticity

• The Brand Landscape:
  • Discussion of how a small number of “have” brands dominate, making it harder for others to break through—especially with social algorithms and AI curating content.
  • “We have taken a world of IPA and turned it into non-alcoholic.” – Dave Karstad (31:09)
  • Smart use of AI by small brands risks further eroding authenticity.
  • "It just tears away at the fabric of authenticity...where I see brands being successful is when the founders are front and center and they're authentic." – Owen Comerford (35:42)
• Path Forward for Brands:
  • Winning brands will be those who create genuine connections and prioritize brand storytelling over algorithmic short-term tactics.

6. Industry Leadership & Collaboration (OIA and Trade Shows)

• OIA’s Role:
  • The hosts see “glimmers” as OIA (Outdoor Industry Association) attempts to reinvent with efforts like bringing back Rendezvous for top executives and new collaborations.
  • "One of the ways that they’re doing that is they’re bringing back Rendezvous...so I think that’s amazing, I hope that all comes together." – Owen Comerford (39:04)
  • Key shared priorities: promoting participation, protecting public lands, supporting healthy retail ecosystems.
• Trade Shows:
  • Hosts argue for reinvigorating national gatherings, with brands stepping up to justify the investment in in-person connection, not just ROI.

7. Looking Forward: Predictions & Enduring Passion

• The Industry’s Future:
  • Though facing a tough start to the year, the hosts emphasize the industry’s resilience and enduring passion as outdoors participation grows and evolves.
  • “The current market forces…it’s going to be challenging. Are people going to go out of business? Yep. Are new people going to come along? Yup…But…the industry…I feel safe saying it’ll be fine.” – Colin True (47:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On legal absurdities:
  "We did want to keep the podcast going, but then we got threatened by a lawsuit by Patagonia for referring to rocks in our name." – Colin True (02:58)
• On media’s lost edge:
  "It’s all very kind of banal milquetoast bullshit, quite frankly.” – Owen Comerford (14:35)
• On authenticity in branding:
  "Let’s cut through the bullshit. Let’s be authentic and talk to consumers where they are." – Owen Comerford (35:42)
• On podcasting style:
  "Don’t sell yourself short, Colin. You’re an objective dick, for sure. Right. No doubt about it." – Dave Karstad (11:24)
• On the show's legacy:
  "If we’ve uncovered anything with the show, it’s that there’s an appetite for the conversations we have here.” – Colin True (10:04)
• On industry resilience:
  “People still love to get outdoors…we just have to maybe do a better job of sending that message.” – Owen Comerford (46:30)
• On retailer survival:
  "There are pundits that have wanted to…bury brick and mortar retail…And actually that hasn’t been the case at all." – Owen Comerford (22:24)
• On the podcast’s end:
  “I think that’s it, guys. I think we solved. We fixed the outdoor industry.” – Colin True (45:17)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:25: Introduction, co-hosts, legal joke about Patagonia
• 07:36: Owen announces “The Outdoor Insiders” podcast plans
• 13:30: Outline of the “retail, brands, and media” structure for discussion
• 14:35–19:57: Critical analysis of outdoor media’s current state and future
• 21:30: Tribute to podcast sponsors (musical segment)
• 22:24–26:31: Deep-dive into outdoor specialty retail and its resilience
• 31:00: Transition to discussion about brands and industry leadership
• 35:42: How small brands can win through authenticity despite AI/algorithms
• 37:27–42:58: The evolving role of the OIA and trade shows in the industry
• 45:44–48:03: Parting predictions and final reflections on the industry

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Tone, Style, & Humor

• The episode is unscripted, lively, irreverent, and full of inside jokes. Candid language and playful jabs are used liberally, maintaining the “talking at the pub/campfire” feel.
• The hosts don’t mince words on what frustrates them; they also praise what works in the industry, and frequently turn the lens onto themselves, exposing their own journey, legacy, and challenges.

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Conclusion

The final episode of The Rock Fight is a fitting sendoff—equal parts roast, industry state-of-the-union, and heartfelt reflection. It recognizes what’s missing in outdoor commentary and issues a call for both media and brands to embrace courage, authenticity, and the unvarnished conversations that create a stronger industry community. As the hosts ride out with one last (literal) song for their supporters, the door is left open for new voices—hopefully, as irreverent as they’ve been—to fill the void.

For more candid, critical outdoor industry conversation, keep an ear out for The Outdoor Insiders launching soon.

Transcript

[Colin True]

Today's episode of the Rock Fight was made possible by support from Global Sales guys. Global Sales Guys isn't your normal sales agency. With offices across the US and Europe and partnerships with retailers on four continents, GSG is your one stop shop for brands looking to grow their presence in outdoor specialty shops worldwide. Brands like Vandere, Red Bull, Nikki Picture, Organic, Kip Run, Decathlon Deluxe, Fubuki and Gore Tex all know that Global Sales guys provide an innovative and full service approach to delivering their brands sal and Marketing needs. Is your brand looking to break into the US Outdoor market? Is your retail shop looking for what's next? Then you need to be working with global Sales guys and if you want to know what's next when it comes to outdoor running and action sports, specialty retail, Global Sales Guys is what's next. See for yourself what's next and get in touch with Global Sales guys by heading to globalsalesguys.com today. Hey rock fighters. 2026 has arrived and Lem Shoes is ringing in the New Year with new products that will keep your feet happy no matter what the occasion. Hey you, get out for a hike. Check out the Trail Thrasher or the Trailblazer Mid. Are you looking for function and fashion? The Summit Boot Pro will work hard to make you look good while keeping your feet comfy during the winter months. And at the end of the day, stay comfy with Lem's brand new Zen Clog and attention. Outdoor and footwear retailers Lemz recently expanded their wholesale sales team. Do you want to meet your new local rep? Well send an email to Colo. That's c o l omshoes.com just make sure you tell them that the Rock Flight sent you lems where less equals more. Fjallraven isn't here to conquer mountains, tame rivers or beat the weather. We are here to go slowly, to tread carefully and to cherish the visit. For us, the outdoor experience has never been a race to victory. It's an ongoing journey to create equipment and memories that last for generations to come. Our mission is to inspire more people to move with nature and we do this by developing durable and functional equipment that never goes out of fashion. What we really want is to make it easier for people to enjoy spending time in nature on nature's terms. This is our passion. So let's use this vast experience and competence to help more people feel at home in nature because when they do, they will take greater care of it. Get started on your Fjallraven journey by heading to fjallraven.com today.

[DJCT]

Rock fight. Rock Fight. Rock flight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.

[Colin True]

Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True and joining me today for the final time, the talk about the state of the outdoor industry. As the Rock Fight casts its final stone, it's the outdoor industry insider, Owen Comerford and Rock Fight co founder. Excuse me, Rock Fight co founder. I want to make sure you get your flowers here, Dave. Producer Dave.

[Dave Karstad]

Sure, sure. Like it matters now, Colin.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah.

[Colin True]

Well, we did want to keep the podcast going, but then we got threatened by a lawsuit by Patagonia for referring to rocks in our name. And their logo is a pict of some rocky peaks. So, you know.

[Owen Comerford]

Well, you know, that's easily confused. Very easily confused.

[Dave Karstad]

You know, I'm just actually realizing, Colton, maybe there's a genius in there. Maybe we could have funded the. The podcast by suing small brands. Like, maybe that's what. Maybe we're missing out on a legal.

[Owen Comerford]

Strategy brand that has. Has the word rock in it.

[Dave Karstad]

That's right.

[Colin True]

Right, right.

[Owen Comerford]

There's probably quite a few.

[Dave Karstad]

We're going to avoid the ones that have fight in it because, you know, we don't want to get it entangled in that. But no, no.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, we might get beaten up.

[Colin True]

You know, it was funny like the week we're talking about shutting this down. And Patagonia, Sue's Patagonia, which is like a tailor made story for the show. We are going to have a pretty loose conversation for this.

[Dave Karstad]

I did feel like, are you kidding me? This comes up right now. Like, we've been waiting.

[Colin True]

Damage got it right under the wire. It's okay.

[Dave Karstad]

My gosh. It's like, oh, man.

[Colin True]

I just, you know, and then, you know, the more the details come out, I try to, like, have like, well, maybe there's a little more here that I, you know, don't understand. And then you read about it and you're God, Patagonia. You make it so hard for me just to just blindly defend you, like, just like this. There's no good reason to do this.

[Owen Comerford]

Well, in fairness to Patagonia, they did have an agreement in place with. With Patty. Patagonia.

[Colin True]

Sure.

[Dave Karstad]

Yeah.

[Owen Comerford]

That they would live together in love and harmony. Yeah. As long as Patagonia didn't sell merch that was, you know, use the Patagonia.

[Dave Karstad]

Have you seen the merch that.

[Owen Comerford]

I have not seen the merch.

[Dave Karstad]

I think that you might have a different opinion if saw the merch. Because there is in no way, shape or form anyone confuses that these are somehow a Patagonia derived product.

[Colin True]

Where's like the just.

[Owen Comerford]

But hold on just for a sec. From a protection of IP perspective. It doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. Hold on. It is all about the fact that whether a trademark is used within a particular classification of the.

[Dave Karstad]

I'm glad you brought that up. I am glad you brought that up because there are other ways to protect your mark from a legal perspective other than a lawsuit. They could have said, hey, pay us a dollar for the licensing. And now we have an agreement that you're working under a license and even though we won't get in your way, recognizing that the amount of merch that they sell is again in no way confusing or infringing upon their business. I cannot. There is no world where this makes sense in any way other than the country club where these IP attorneys got together and hashed this scheme. There's just no way. There's just other ways to do it. And I just. How. How did they come to the conclusion that they were gonna get out of this unscathed? I just.

[Colin True]

Let me be the middle here. Right. Cause Owen is right. Totally defensible on paper. 100%. You're absolutely right.

[Dave Karstad]

And you need to do it as a brand. You need to protect your market. Awesome.

[Colin True]

And I talked to other people who've been like, who've Patag. We did it at Polar Check. Like, hey, listen, this is our trademark or whatever it is. We want to defend it. I get it. But when you consider the two entities here, it was an opportunity. Just an opportunity like, hey, to.

[DJCT]

To. To.

[Colin True]

To partner to say something like he. They could make this apparel line for him and basically underwrite it for him and then like, then claim ownership saying.

[Dave Karstad]

They didn't even need to go that far.

[Colin True]

Good pr.

[Dave Karstad]

They didn't even know to need to go that far.

[Colin True]

They could have just unforced error.

[Dave Karstad]

Mad. What fireworks. What fireworks?

[Colin True]

I love you, Patagonia. Like we said before, you do so much good for the world. But man, just another one. Like just unforced error. What are we doing here, guys? Well, happy last episode of the Rock Band.

[DJCT]

Dang it.

[Dave Karstad]

There's so much we could do here. Like, I was gonna pen a cease and desist letter as the attorney representing the mountains of Patagonia. Right. I just, I think certainly deserves some exploration right there and some damages.

[Colin True]

They've been dealing with that for years.

[Dave Karstad]

Down There they have, they have. Talk about confusion.

[Colin True]

Let's chat about the show winding out of mid. I put out a pod on Friday, kind of announcing that this was coming, you know, but I guess most importantly, you know, what's the legacy going to be as we kind of look ahead? I teased in that episode and I didn't know if we were going to talk about it today. It sounds like. Oh, and you're ready to talk about it sounds like there is, there is something coming up down the road. You want to talk about what you're thinking of doing.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, well, I don't want people just to be looking into the abyss of a lack of good industry coverage for potentially years to come. So it's still in the works. But my plan is you've gotten me hooked on this podcasting thing, Colin. As I've said, I've just had nothing but gratitude for you and Dave and all the fun we've had over the last 12 plus months. And so, yeah, I've been bitten by the bugs. And so my plan is to start a, a new podcast called the Outdoor Insiders and hopefully right here on the podcast on the Rock Fight Podcast network. And really to definitely not take the place of the Rock Fight. That would never be possible, but to hopefully serve a similar goal, which is to get to cover the industry, the news of the industry, in a way that cuts through all the bullshit and kind of gets to what's really going on.

[Dave Karstad]

Right.

[Owen Comerford]

So similar level of irreverence, but no, that's not true. I could never compete with Dave, but, you know, at least we'll have some fun. Probably a few more interviews, I think, you know, bring some more outside insiders in to talk about what's going on in the industry. So, yeah, so that's the plan. Nothing is imminent. I think maybe early March probably once we get all of our ducks in a row. I am looking for a potential co host and interviewees. So if people want to reach out to me on my LinkedIn. Owen Comerford on LinkedIn E O I N just reach out, let me know. Ideally, I may not start with a dedicated co host. I maybe do some guest things for a while, see what gels, see what organically comes of that. I'd love to bring some different voices and different perspectives to the four. So maybe not another, you know, mid somethings white guy, mid-50s white guy. You know, that would be probably ideal, but there's a lot of us out there. So, you know, from a pure percentage of the perspective people, you know, that's a big part of it. The other thing, too, is, you know, finding somebody who is willing and able to speak their mind in our industry. Because, you know, if you work for a brand, if you work for a retailer, you know, there's a lot of thin skin, as we know, in this industry, and people are worried that if they say something mean about Patagonia or North Face or VF Corp or REI or whatever, that somehow it's going to hurt their other livelihood where they're actually getting paid. And so, yeah, so finding that special person that fits those criteria, I think might take a minute.

[Colin True]

Love that.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah.

[Colin True]

And I think if anybody who wanted more interviews like I was the roadblock there. I'm just not as interested in doing as many interviews. And whenever we would have someone on, especially with Owen, I felt like it was always a richer conversation. So I think that'll be great. You know, I will keep the myrockfight gmail.com inbox will remain open. So if you're listening to this and you don't want to go on LinkedIn, you can send a note there. If you're interested in getting in touch with Owen, I'll make sure that gets passed over to him. But, yeah, we don't want to. If we've uncovered anything with the show, it's that there's an appetite for the conversations we have here. It's been a little easier given the roles that Dave and I have had over the last five years. Well, three years, for this podcast to not really pull any punches, so. But I do think that there is a balance where you don't have to be as objectively a dick as I am, while also still being able to speak intelligently and critically of the industry without offending people, which, frankly, that might go over even better than the Rock fight did. So we'll be supporting it for sure.

[Dave Karstad]

Don't sell yourself short, Cullen. You're an objective dick for sure. Right. No doubt about it.

[Owen Comerford]

By. By anyone's.

[Dave Karstad]

By anyone's measure.

[Colin True]

Oh, and if your podcast doesn't work, like, you know, not enough of an objective dick.

[Justin Hausman]

That's right.

[Owen Comerford]

Really, we. We need more dick. Anyway.

[Colin True]

Who doesn't?

[Dave Karstad]

And I believe we have our stinger right there.

[Colin True]

Welcome to the. Thank God.

[Dave Karstad]

This is the last episode Insider podcast with Owen Comerford. We need more dick.

[DJCT]

There you go.

[Colin True]

Can we get Dick Locker to sponsor?

[Owen Comerford]

Oh, of course. I'm just lining them up. Oh, yeah. And if you want to sponsor the new podcast or be a presenting sponsor, please do let me know. We would Love that because this actually does take some dollars to put something together like this. But I agree on the interview front, Colin, not only I think you weren't all about the interviewing, but also I would say there were a number of people who were like, ah, I don't know that I want to be on, you know, and we won't name names here, but I don't want to be on the Rock Fight.

[Colin True]

No, there's a few whales that I would have liked to have had on that I would have really pursued having on who were like, I don't know, you know, so yeah, yeah, you might get more. A few more yeses, I think.

[Owen Comerford]

So we'll see, we'll see.

[Dave Karstad]

Maybe that's to sign me in a non alcoholic world. I'm sorry.

[Owen Comerford]

Oh God. Okay, we'll see, we'll see how it goes. But yes, that would be the goal though, to get, you know, to get those whales and then, you know, also maybe have, you know, guests back on like Colin True and Dave Karstad when the time is right.

[Colin True]

Nice to pop back on. Yeah. When we find out that Robin Thurston is your co host, then we'll know that, damn it, he really didn't want to talk to me.

[Owen Comerford]

I'll get him on for interview.

[Dave Karstad]

I'm going to listen to that for sure.

[Colin True]

Well, for our final episode basically to do like one last parting shot at the industry, right, we're going to have a loose conversation around the state of the industry that we're leaving behind.

[Dave Karstad]

We don't have any, we don't have any headlines.

[Colin True]

Well, we're just going to. We don't have look at the Rock Fight didn't exist. It existed and now it's not going to exist. So we're going to look at things sit in the industry from the perspective of media, retail and brands. And let's start with outdoor media. It's kind of like what we talk about the least on the Rock Fight, even if we have been cosplaying as media members for the past few years. To set the table up, I'll offer three topics that we're focusing on today. I think of those three media retail brands, Outdoor media is the one I'm the least bullish on. From a consumer perspective. From consumer perspective, it feels very tired. I'm not really sure what can happen to make it more interesting. From a trade perspective. There are outlets like Footwear News who I think do really strong work. But to toot our own horn, there's nothing really that is offering commentary on Our industry as our show ends its run, as evidenced by, you know, Owen saying he wants to do his own thing. There are some other podcasters and folks who are tapping into it, but not quite the same way that we're doing it again to toot our own horn. So, Owen, let's just start with you. Like, where do you think we are with outdoor media in 2026?

[Owen Comerford]

I think that one of the reasons, quite frankly, that the rock fight was successful was because we were filling a need, right, A void which is, you know, industry news coverage that goes beyond just the PR bullshit, quite frankly. There's just a lot of it today is, it's warmed over press releases, I mean, literally barely changed from the press release. So I find that challenging. Also, as we talked about last week, if you're part of a bigger brand or retailer in this industry, you've been through media training which basically trains you to basically say nothing, right? So it's all very kind of banal milqueto bullshit, quite frankly. And so it's just hard to get anything that really either digs below the surface and gets to what's really going on or actually talks about what's really going on beyond the PR spin. So I think that's challenging. I think there are some interesting executives out there like Amy Beck from obos or Fabizio Gambarini of ibram. Both are amongst the group that are pretty outspoken, but they're the, they're kind of the exception that proves the rule, quite frankly. And so, yeah, it's just not a great, a great landscape.

[Colin True]

When we look at, when we talk about the brand stuff in a minute, I think that is the media training piece you talk about. I think it's kind of the same in any healthy ecosystem where there is a critical media and well as then kind of the players in the industry, right? I mean, if you watch a post game interview after any sports event, what does anybody ever actually say, right? And then it becomes incumbent on the, you know, media folks to sort of dissect and talk about things, whatever. And when I look around at some folks who do talk about outdoor, the industry from a, from an industry perspective, there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of ball washing out there, right? It's a lot of like, here's why you're going to be inspired and this is why this brand is so inspiring and this executive is so inspiring. There's not a level of like, hey, what can we learn? What can we do better? How can we do better at what we're doing, and that is, I think the exception that we have been is like, we're not, you know, we don't really stand for the bullshit. And I think that a little more of that, I think, will go a long way when it comes to the media.

[Dave Karstad]

Colin, obviously you're not a golfer, but I'm just going to say there's a lot of ball washing going on, and it's. It's spectacularly clean. Cohen, I just want to just reiterate. Yeah. What we have now is essentially a press release distribution system. And the platforms are set up for that, the algorithms are set up for that, and that's how it seems to be informing. And so the idea of actual color commentary is. Is disappearing. Look, we. We have our compatriots in the media and the folks that are working on the, you know, the newsletters that, you know, work to stay in front of that are kind of hang, you know, handcuffed by what they. How they can talk about what they talk about. But they still do a good job. There's still reporting that needs to be done. Yeah, And I applaud them for doing that work. It's just, like I said, reading between the lines and getting at, you know, everyone talks about this podcast is, you know, having conversations that they're having, and if we don't continue that or amplify that, we're gonna see an industry that shrivels into kind of just a monotone conversation that doesn't actually move forward and stagnation follows. Right. It just, you can kind of chart that. And so I. That we can. I hope that we do. See, I don't know if it's a new social platform or if it's a new generation, frankly. You know, it's like, like there's just. Are there avenues to injecting some actual thoughtful analysis and individual perspectives out there?

[Owen Comerford]

So the one thing I would say, though, is this is not. A lot of. This is not unique to the outdoor industry or, or the consumer piece. Right. I mean, the whole media landscape is a. A fucking train wreck, quite frankly. Just because people are no longer willing to pay for content or pay for journalists to do what they do outside of some bastions like the New York Times or the Washington Post or those sorts of places. And so you just see more and more newsrooms closing or really getting turned over to either freshly minted people out of College and. Or ChatGPT inspired journalism. Right. So it's an ongoing issue. It's one of the issues, ultimately, that you alluded to about the rock fight, Colin, was the fact that even though there was a lot of conversation about, hey, this is amazing, this is a great work, and we did have some great sponsors over the year, but not enough that someone could make a living doing this. Right. And so, yeah, it's just a challenging time where there's never been more information available to people and there's never been less good information available to people.

[Dave Karstad]

It's almost like tech companies plagiarized and devalued the work of journalism and turned it into a commodity worth nothing.

[Owen Comerford]

Almost interesting.

[Colin True]

Almost.

[Owen Comerford]

Almost.

[Colin True]

I do want to shout out Gear Junkie, a publication or an entity that I have definitely been critical of in the past. But I did notice in today's newsletter as we recorded this on Friday the 23rd, they echoed our sentiments on Alex Honnold's attempt to climb a building later tonight. And I thought it was a really nice piece and basically similar to what we had said. Like, this is. You're not. This isn't an adventure. This is, you know, you're courting. They're using courting death as a way to get eyeballs on it. And I was like, good for you guys. So I was happy to see them do that.

[DJCT]

Yeah.

[Colin True]

I'm not saying there's not glimmers there. I just, you know, and I think on the podcast front, like I mentioned again, not to say it again, third time between Dave and me, the ball washing of it all. Like, just ask some critical. Just ask some critical questions. Not everything has to be like, just because someone works at an outdoor brand or they work in the industry doesn't mean that it's all super positive. There's things to dig into in these topics and there's a lot of money and a lot of interest in the stuff that we cover. And it just seems kind of obvious the reason why people listen to the rock fight is just because we're asking why or getting curious about things or digging into things that just don't make sense. And I don't know that curiosity will ever go away.

[Dave Karstad]

Are you sure it's not to tune into your color for language?

[Colin True]

Maybe could be just saying that's why we didn't get enough sponsors.

[Dave Karstad]

Right.

[Colin True]

Speaking of, we are going to pay tribute to our sponsors coming up soon because there have been definitely some folks who have, who have supported us and we're going to give them their due in a few minutes here. But.

[Dave Karstad]

All right. I heard you're going to be performing a private podcast just for them.

[Colin True]

Just for them.

[Owen Comerford]

That's it.

[Colin True]

Everyone is going on tour for our sponsors.

[Dave Karstad]

That's nice of you.

[Colin True]

Well, let's turn our attention to what I think is the soul of our industry, which is the retailers. I'm going to say in a minute how the brands really are the most important cogs in our industry machine. But the retailers are really just as important in many ways. We've talked a lot about what retailers should be or should be doing or not doing in order to thrive in a modern world that seems to be continuing to evolve to get rid of brick and mortar retail. Between E commerce and now AI, it's easier than ever for consumers to get what they want. But honestly, that impersonal shopping experience just reaffirms the long term. There will always be a need for in person person shopping. So it's really a matter of how retailers evolve with the technology. So Owen, retail is the basis for much of what you've had to say on the rock fight over the last year or so. How are you feeling just in general about outdoor retail as we end the.

[Owen Comerford]

Show, feel that outdoor specialty retail has been just incredibly resourceful and resilient over the last, call it, quarter century, right. I don't know. For as long as there's been a computer, it feels like there have been pundits that have wanted to, to basically bury brick and mortar retail. Right. Whether it was E commerce brands going direct to consumer AI, I mean, you name it, it's all been, oh, oh, the end of special retail. And actually that hasn't been the case at all. I mean, yes, there have been some high profile closings over the years, but there are also people opening stores as well. So the reality is that good retailers that add value to their consumers are still thriving. They're still doing well, they're still opening stores in a lot of cases. And I feel what it comes down to a little bit of what you alluded to is as humans, we are wired to want human interaction, right? We want to touch and feel the product, we want to talk about it, we want to share that experience of buying with somebody else that shares some of those same passions. Right? And yes, right now I think things are a little tough. Inflation, tariffs, aging core participants, yada yada, all big challenges. But I don't think that's anything that outdoor specialty can't overcome. And actually if anything, the growth of this whole AI powered fake relationship bullshit that's happening today, I think it's going to push more consumers to want to seek out that in person experience when it comes to buying their gear.

[Colin True]

Yeah, I think convenience is always going to have a place and it's always going to be interesting. Right. Like I commented on to the Trail Waves newsletter that we've cited a few times in the past, the Trail Running focused newsletter. I think Seth LaRue is the, is the publisher of that and he had a whole article about how Strava should integrate, you know, e commerce into their platform so you can track your shoes. And my comment was like, this is a horrible idea because you're undermining the best part of the, of the run world, which is specialty retail. Like, you're not even accounting for that. But he's not wrong. I mean, if Strava did that, I'm sure it would be successful. However, I agree with you is that just because you have that opportunity, you have that convenience doesn't mean that there aren't ways for it. There aren't ways for retailers to stand out. And I think part of that is just running a really good shop. I was chatting with Wes Allen shortly after the holidays and I said, hey, how did it go? And he's like, you know, obviously everyone knows how weather challenged everyone is, especially in the west, but pretty much everywhere until this blizzard we're getting this weekend. And then also, you know, between that and the tariffs and everything else, he's a God. We had a pretty decent season. And I'm like, that's because you're good at running your business. Right. You know, it doesn't have to be about the, all the trends that we say is going to lead to success or is going to lead to your demise. It's like, are you good at running your business? So I think even in the face of like Strava adding sales or any the AI stuff, it's like if you're, if you run your shop shop and you're good at smart about how you run your shop, the demand will be there because it's fun to go to these stores and people will want to come.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, I mean, I look at like Playmakers, which is a run store that's in Lansing here, not that far away from where I am. They're not going anywhere. I mean, they're doing really well because they provide a great experience. Right. And those are the folks that are going to be fine. But they also continue to evolve. Right. I mean, you can't stick your head in the sand and say, I'm just going to do it the same way I've done it for the last 30 years. There is an evolution and keeping up with technology, but you don't have to follow it slavishly either. I think a lot of outdoor brick and mortar retailers said, oh, I've got to have an E commerce presence. I've got to try to compete with the big guys, the back countries, the moose shows, the whatevers. And ultimately that was not a successful strategy because it's really hard to do that. Well, you have to have scale and it just became a distraction for stores. It's about, yes, I have this in stock and I'll help to support my local customer. But that was really where it needs to end rather than trying to compete on a national scale.

[Colin True]

Dave, you know what else is hard to do?

[Dave Karstad]

Well, what's that?

[Colin True]

Make an awesome podcast.

[Owen Comerford]

Is it, Is it hard?

[Colin True]

Any thoughts on retail, Dave?

[Dave Karstad]

No, I just was thinking of the retailers sticking their head in the sand and how maybe an innovation is gravel. Right. We can just change the metaphor and now we've got a whole new new path.

[Colin True]

No, I think, I don't think as the retailers aren't demanding gravel, they could.

[Dave Karstad]

Gravel's being forced on retailers and I was going to go with that in that kind of. Those same observations there will apply to when we talk to brands. Right. A lot of that same advice is there, that the experience is going to be the key and for sure you better keep innovating.

[Colin True]

All right, well, before we get to brands, we want to take a second and pay tribute to the brands who've actually paid us. So for one last time, you're listening to Rock Fight Radio. Hey, listen up rock fighters. You got DJCT here to tell you that Rock Fight Radio is signing off for good with one last track. And we're doing it in style to support those who supported us, the real ones who actually wrote the checks that led to you getting to hear the Rock Fight. Thank you so much for your support and enjoy one last tune as Rock Fight Radio signs up.

[Justin Hausman]

As the Rock Fight winds down, we give thanks to you all. But we raise one last glass to those who answered the call. Our sponsors, Life Labs Iron Packs, Hydropack Switchback Oboes Lives Fuel Goods. Get me some Limb Shoes Fit Socks, Ibex Darby Rocks. We're closing down the pod. Yeah. No more songs and no more rats. But these brands are here. Their spirit remains. So visit their shops and say their names. See all Ravens Thermo Royal Robins feeling fine. Let's not forget to pour one out for Northwest Alpine GGG Garage Grown gear and global sales guys. Conatives Council giving good advice. Endeavor first seed sown and rip Stop by the roll and that Pacific adventure sure does works. Long weekend coffee gear trade too if we missed one, Sorry, it sucks to be you. We're closing down the pod yeah no more songs and no more rap we say thanks for you from high on our poor hell Someday there'll probably be rock fight merch we're closing down the pod yeah no more songs and no more rats but these brands are here. Their spirit remains. So visit their shops and say and that.

[Colin True]

Now back to the show. All right, guys, I saved brands for last because I'm sure this is where we'll have the most to say, you know, love it or hate it, outdoor brands set the tone for the whole industry. They're our biggest names. They drive the revenue, they create trends. Our industry isn't what it is without the brands. Obviously, the media has an important part. The retailers have, like I said, almost an equally as important part as the brands. But really, when you talk about setting the tone, it starts with the brands. You know, I think generally speaking, the brands are probably the ones, though, that need the most work. Right. Speaking broadly, because, of course, there is interesting work happening out there. But again, speaking broadly, the outdoor landscape has become pretty mediocre. You know, I was texting with friend of the pod, Kyle Frost recently, and at one point I wrote, to Paraphrase the Joker, 1989's Batman, this industry needs an enema. So, Dave, you know, I'm coming to you first on the brand front. As the Rock fight signs off, what are your thoughts on the state of outdoor brands? Long pause. There are no thoughts.

[Dave Karstad]

That's it. That's all I got. That's it.

[Colin True]

Just a flat line.

[Dave Karstad]

Just a flat line.

[Colin True]

Should I insert, like a hospital sound effect there?

[Dave Karstad]

Yeah, I'll go back to the beer analogy. We have taken a world of IPA and turned it into non alcoholic. Right?

[Owen Comerford]

The Stomach Ultra, at least.

[Dave Karstad]

Oh, God.

[Colin True]

See, this is why Athletic Brewing refused to sponsor the podcast, because of comments like that. That's why we're in this position, Dave.

[Dave Karstad]

I realize that, and I want you.

[Owen Comerford]

To know Athletic Brewing will be welcome on the side.

[Dave Karstad]

Hey, I want you to know, now that we don't have the pot, I will have much more time for day drinking. And so I have started day drinking today with a Run Wild IPA from Athletic Brewing.

[Colin True]

A little too late.

[Dave Karstad]

The difference is, though, I'm chasing it with a tumbler of bourbon, but they go together. State of the brand, Colin. I look at brands and I, being a marketer, tend to Be optimistic about what can be. Do I look at technology not necessarily as the obstacle, but the opportunity. I am more bullish on AI than I am opposed, however cognizant of the dangers and some of the challenges it's going to create. I think generationally, I love the energy that's coming up in terms of the new generation of enthusiasts and I think the addition of casual kind of participants is a positive thing. However, at the same time I think the landscape that we find ourselves in of just a very few top dominant brands that control so much of the open to buy. And again, this isn't brand new, but has really created a tough spot for the middle and the early brands, even though there is so much creativity going on. I feel like go back to the experience discussion. We have given up so much of our brand power to Meta and it's algorithms, decisions of what gets fed to people and so you can even create a well messaged, artistic kind of resonant campaign and Meta will pick apart which ones that they think needs to be presented. They'll change the music and lay it down. And that's insane. And I think it's a very short term, it'll move the macro, excuse me, it'll move the nano for the moment, but it really does not look at the brand's interest in long term and building the experience that we want consumers to have. And so I think we have to solve how we're going to do that. And I think, Owen, you kind of mentioned it. The in person is going to obviously become more important and this isn't new either. But how does that happen? How do we. With rising costs everywhere, making it harder to do these things. You know, the idea of being more clever and just, just more inspired about how we show up and surprise our consumers is going to be more important again, always important, but now it just seems like that's going to be the real determiner of who, who wins, who loses, who moves from startup up to mid level. Right. And who can start to then find some traction in the marketplace.

[Colin True]

So Owen, I gotta ask you. So that's an interesting point and obviously we should probably take footwear out of this conversation because it does seem like sometimes some new brands are being rewarded on the footwear front, at least when it comes to trail running. But it has, we do have this sort of haves and have nots landscape, especially on the apparel front. It used to be sure there were brands who did well 20, 30 years ago, but it was easier to kind of envision some of the Smaller, newer brands making the leap to become part of the sort of entrenched brands you would see in a retailer. I think of a brand like Anara, who is bringing, making an incredibly compelling argument for something new and different. And they're struggling, right? I mean, to kind of really break through. I mean, they're doing, they're doing everything they need to do, but it's like that system to me is like a slam dunk solution to something that is like, why is it not in the time we've done this podcast over the last three years, why is they, they become. Why have they not broken through in a much more meaningful way? And I know they're trying really hard over there. And you. So working with, you know, smaller brands, how do you see ways to cross that divide? Is it just going to keep getting harder and harder?

[Owen Comerford]

I think it is. And I actually think the AI of it all actually makes it worse. Part of it being the algorithmic challenges that Dave alluded to, but also the temptation for smaller brands with smaller marketing teams to basically lean into AI to automate everything. Okay, I'm going to automate my social media feed. I'm going to automate my social media responses, I'm going to automate my customer service, I'm going to automate coming up with my promotions. I'm going to use AI for all of my graphics, my product, lifestyle shots. And it just tears away at the fabric of authenticity that I think is just an underpinning of what we do in this industry. And you just have to be super, super careful there. Where I see brands being successful is when the founders are front and center and they're authentic and they speak their minds and they spe directly to their consumers. Ewer is a great example. Mallory over at ewer. And even if you know you're not in the market for a treasure dress, just sign up for their emails. Your brain will, and your marketing brain and your brand will thank you for it because you just see an authenticity and a directness of conversation there that, that you just don't see elsewhere. And there needs to be more of that, especially from the smaller brands who can really lean into that, but even from the bigger brands too. Let's cut through the bullshit. Let's be authentic and talk to consumers where they are versus trying to pretend to be something that you're not.

[Colin True]

So I want to talk about the OIA for a second because if we look across, talk about issues with brands.

[Owen Comerford]

Oia, or do you? Colin? I just wanted to be clear.

[Colin True]

I'm so glad you said that, that we got that in one more time.

[Owen Comerford]

One last time, Ken.

[Colin True]

Sorry, Kent, but you know, it's the last time you have to hear us say it. I guess until Owen comes back with his podcast.

[Owen Comerford]

It will always be the oia.

[Colin True]

It's always the oia. It's the Outdoor Industry Association. It's like, it's the National Basketball Association.

[Dave Karstad]

I just call it oya.

[Colin True]

Oya. I could be on board with oya. That's pretty good. No, but it's like the things we're talking about, like there is. How do you solve some of these problems? Because we're talking about people who exist to make money, right? I mean, like, take all the romance out of it. These are businesses, these are for profit enterprises and it's competitive and we got to go win and make money to prove that we deserve to exist and all those things. So the OIA is kind of like, how do you have the leadership in sort of setting a framework or setting a strategy for the industry now? They're seemingly reinventing themselves on the fly for a long time. I've joked on the pod. What did they do in the past besides give you your or discount? I know Dave went to an event yesterday. I'm sure he's going to mention it. You've got a couple things that say, I think Owen on the OIA and what they're doing, but they are reinventing themselves on the fly. But what could they do? What could a leadership body do to help set that framework or that strategy for the industry?

[Owen Comerford]

All kidding aside, I do think that the OIA team is really trying to think differently and come up with new ways to come together.

[Colin True]

They're working really hard.

[Owen Comerford]

They are. And one of the ways that they're doing that is they're bringing back Rendezvous, which is scheduled, it's scheduled for this spring, I want to say March or April. Yeah, invite, you know, invite only top executives come together, talk about what, what we're dealing with. So I think that's amazing. I hope that all comes together as planned and as, as hoped. But, you know, because one of the issues that we're faced with as an industry, and we've talked about this ad nauseam on the podcast, we should have had a fourth one for trade shows. Colin, at the end of the day.

[Colin True]

You'Re right, we should have. Well, we can do it now.

[Owen Comerford]

But, you know, not having that national coming together, so to speak, has really hurt some of the unity and the interaction that's needed. And so I think Rendezvous has a place to play there. OIA getting involved with Switchback to a deeper extent. I think hopefully will play there as well. Also, we've got ISPO under new ownership again. Hopefully we will see great things coming in November. I think it is this year. So there's glimmers on the horizon, but ultimately we've got to come together. The thing of it is that even though all these brands are in competition, there's lots of things that join us together and should be pretty easy to get everybody on board with, right? I mean, number one, encouraging and increasing outdoor participation. Right? I mean, that's what pays the bills. Okay? So we want people from all ages. This isn't some crazy leftist DEI initiative as some might try to cast it. This is a business imperative. Get people of all ages, ethnicities and genders and social backgrounds outdoors, period. Right. Second thing is protecting public lands. These are the areas where people do the activities that require them to buy the shit that we sell and make.

[Dave Karstad]

Right?

[Owen Comerford]

That should be a slam dunk. Okay. And then the third one that maybe is a little bit more of a stretch, but I think is equally important is promoting a healthy retail ecosystem, okay? Where consumers, wherever they are, whether they're online or D2C or in person, whatever, wherever they are, wherever they want to interact with with outdoor products, that we are there in a healthy way to provide them with great service, with high customer satisfaction, with the ability to get outdoors, and with minimal discounting. So that to me is like the.

[Colin True]

Third leg of the stool on the trade show front. I think we could have made it its own bullet point here, but we probably said enough about it. Over the three years we've done this podcast, I will say that if I. One regret probably in hindsight is that we probably didn't speak about trade shows from the perspective of the brand, brands doing better. I think you talk about the things that we need to be aligned on. There's kind of heady topics. There's not a lot of just like on paper, that ROI that everyone's looking for from a trade show. And when you talk to brands like, well, I got to see why justifies the expense. And it's like, well, that's. I think I need to hear from brands more. Listen, you're demanding an in person response and you want an in person gathering and you're demanding the trade shows do all of the work and provide all of the value without just sort of understanding that, like the value is in getting together and understand that you spending that money and showing up is Accomplishing what you're saying by saying, hey, we need to have a national gathering. And I think I still hear from folks around the industry, well, you know, I don't know the buying cycle and when are retailers going to show up? And it's like, let's just start with it's important to get together and then we can figure the rest of it out. And I don't think there's enough put back on the brands at this point of like kind of helping to define that and being a willing participant to get the trade show scene going. Not to make this a totally trade show centric conversation, but Dave, back to the oia. You just went to an event yesterday. You said it was a good time over there. Do you want to talk about what you saw?

[Dave Karstad]

It was a hoot, Colin. Just so much hooting. No, I went to a roundtable hosted by the Oregon Outdoor alliance and the oia. They had folks from the search company Foghorn Labs give a presentation and it was kind of again, concert with the oia, some statistics on participation, kind of how the industry is moving to record that and then kind of what that has to do or the impact of that maybe on some of your search strategies and just kind of the medium. And I just, I thought what they did there, it was very participatory. It was not so much one person droning and everyone just listening in silence. It was absolutely collaborative. People talking about real world experiences. It became strategic and tactical in discussions. It was one of the, I mean, and again the subject matter was kind of on point but really coming away with usable and actionable ideas. And I think that's the kind of stuff that again, as we talk about the startup landscape or the mid level brands, how do we, how do we empower them to be able to compete more and how do we create these resources? And I think that for me it was great. It was a great conversation and a great participation. And that's the kind of stuff about the industry I think gets me excited kind of going forward for sure.

[Colin True]

And probably all this will get easier once we're not dealing with tariffs and stuff anymore, right guys? I mean, you know, it's a big sort of like drag on everything right now.

[Dave Karstad]

I mean it really is kind of back burner news compared to the last rock fight, frankly.

[Colin True]

But oh speaking anybody who was at that event in Oregon, Dave, knew that we were ending the show.

[Dave Karstad]

You, you bastard.

[Colin True]

No, but I think that's a good to your point, Dave. Like it was I my when you told me that that how valuable it is. And we've been critical of those types of gatherings.

[Dave Karstad]

Right.

[Colin True]

Of like, what is the actual takeaway of these things? And it was, you know, being put on in concert with the OAA makes me, you know, very optimistic about where that organization is going.

[Dave Karstad]

Right.

[Colin True]

I think that's it, guys. I think we solved. We fixed the outdoor industry.

[Dave Karstad]

So our job is done here. Is that what you're saying?

[Owen Comerford]

Oh, gosh.

[Dave Karstad]

I, I would actually put back to both of you, what's your one, what's your one future prognostication of what's going to happen in the industry? In this, I don't know if it's the void that we're leaving or just where is it going. What's one thing that we'll see in the upcoming year in this industry?

[Owen Comerford]

I put out 10 predictions earlier this year. That's true.

[Colin True]

You really did.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, that's true.

[Dave Karstad]

Now that we've already blown past all of those.

[Colin True]

Well, I mean. Oh, go ahead.

[Owen Comerford]

I mean, I do think it is going to be a tough start to the year, as we said, and I haven't talked to anybody that has disagreed with me or said, no, you're full of shit, Owen. It's going to be amazing. But that said, an incredibly resilient industry. And I think we'll look back again a year from now and go, wow, that was really hard. But we all made it through. People still love to get outdoors. People still love the brands that get them outdoors. And we just have to maybe do a better job of sending that message.

[Colin True]

We've poked fun at the more things change, the more they stay the same in the industry. When going back and look at old issues of snooze. And I do think that history will repeat itself again, but I also think that the thing that is also present in all of that is the passion for not just the outdoors, but the industry. I think I said in my announcement episode on Friday is plop yourself in a room with Dave and I for an hour and you're not going to want to talk about the industry anymore. Because this is. We talk about. I mean, it's just like we are fascinated with this space. It's a. Just the intersection of passion and commerce. I mean, it's always going to be interesting and there's always going to be a place for it. That's why we get dismissive if anyone's like, ah, that's going away, or that, that's. That can't happen. It's going to destroy the industry. Whatever it's like, no, things are going to change. People are going to come and go. Do we have challenges? We just spend an hour talking about what we think the challenges are. But I, you know, I want to think you're right. It's a resilient space. It's going to be around. People are going to want to go outside, and people are going outside more than they ever have before. It's normal now. This industry rose out of an era when it was not normal to go outside and hike up and down mountains. You. That was a bunch of weirdos doing that. And now it's like, yeah, going outside, it's like, we know that that's a healthy thing to do, that everybody should do.

[Dave Karstad]

Weirdos.

[Colin True]

Yeah. So I, you know, the. The current market forces at play. Yeah. It's going to be challenging. Are people going to go out of business over time? Yep. Are new people going to come along? Yup. I mean, all that stuff. But, you know, the industry, I feel. I don't feel. I feel safe saying it'll be fine. It's going to work itself out over time.

[Owen Comerford]

Yep.

[Dave Karstad]

I agree.

[Colin True]

All right, Dave, you know, you posed the question. What's yours? What's your prediction?

[Dave Karstad]

Oh, I. This is. I can see this happening clear as day. Patty's Pub is going to get a cease and desist from Patagonia, and they're going to demand residuals.

[Colin True]

The Patagonia It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia crossover we've been clamoring for.

[Dave Karstad]

That's right. That's exactly right.

[Colin True]

All right, full circle back to the beginning. We did it, guys. Well, I think that's it. I think that's the last episode of the Rock Fight. The Rock Fight is a production or was a production of Rock Fight llc. Art direction, of course, has been and always will be. Anytime you see Rock Fight anywhere, Sarah Genser will be the person behind that, including. We are working on merch guys. So Rock Fight, the entity is not going well.

[Dave Karstad]

We're going to buck all of the trends and we're going to redo. We're going to release our merchandise after the podcast is closed. That's right.

[Owen Comerford]

That is such a Rock Fight thing.

[Dave Karstad]

That's right. This was just actually kind of a promotional campaign for the merch, and so.

[Colin True]

You know, we'll know we have made it when the outdoor industry insiders are talking about the Rock Fight merch line and, like, how we're screwing it up, you know.

[Dave Karstad]

That's right.

[Colin True]

We were on the path to becoming the new supreme, but then we you know, we pivoted and we ruined it all.

[Dave Karstad]

They're going to talk about that trip trucker had as being a sustainability nightmare.

[Colin True]

And, Dave, you and I will refuse to go on the podcast to talk about because we're real industry executives.

[Dave Karstad]

Are you kidding? That's right.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah. That's right.

[Colin True]

But, hey, we're going to wrap it up for the final time. So for David Karstad, for Justin Hausman, for Shantae Salibar, and for Owen Comerford, I'm Colin True. Thank you for listening. And here for the last time, it's less than Jake's own Krista man makes, and he's here to sing the rock fight fight song. Thank you for listening to rock fighters.

[Dave Karstad]

Thank you, everybody.

[Owen Comerford]

Thanks, guys.

[DJCT]

Rock fight, Rock fight? Rock fight? Rock fight? Rock fight, Rock fight? Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth? Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree? We talk about human powered outdoors activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head this is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock five? Rock five, Rock five? Welcome to the rock flight? Rock fight, rock five? Welcome to the rock fight? Rock light rock fight? Rock light, rock light, rock fight? Welcome to the rap fight? Rock fight, rap fight Rock fight.